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City of Clearwater Commission Hearing: The Church of ScientologyDay 3, Casey Kelley
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the faith of the Church, but external activities, business activities, with respect to the City of Clearwater. We have been listening for the past few days, and yesterday we left with a man named Casey Kelley, who has been previously sworn in. Mr. Flynn, is that — should we go through the ceremony of swearing in again, or his he still sworn in? MR. FLYNN: That won't be necessary, he's still under oath. MR. LeCHER: All right. CASEY KELLEY, a witness herein, having been previously sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows: MR. LeCHER: Mr. Kelley, you were speaking yesterday from the general outline. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we ask you some more questions? MR. KELLEY: No. I'm ready to answer questions. MR. LeCHER: Okay. I will start off with a few and, then, go to my right. You testified yesterday that on a good week you'd take in a million dollars in Clearwater and an average week would be four to five hundred thousand dollars and, on an exceptional week, 2.3 million dollars in the City of Clearwater, which is the largest of any of the cities in the country, possibly the world. All that money that was taken in — and I don't want you to name names but — are there many Church-related businesses in the City of Clearwater? And to your knowledge, has any of that money been siphoned off or skimmed to support businesses within the City of Clearwater? I don't want you to name businesses because of the possible blackmail — MR. KELLEY: Right. I won't name any because I don't know of any. If that is done, it's done — it was done without my knowledge. MR. LeCHER: You did say, though, yesterday that you looked at every invoice coming in? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MR. LeCHER: But — MR. KELLEY: But no invoices going out. MR. LeCHER: No invoices going out, just — MR. KELLEY: Right. I didn't see the checks going out. MR. LeCHER: Did the Church prefer to do business with their own? MR. KELLEY: When possible. To my knowledge, there weren't that many Scientologist businesses in the area. MR. LeCHER: And when were you last there? MR. KELLEY: October of 1980. MR. LeCHER: When I see these young people walking up and down the street, can they all afford these expensive courses or are they indentured for various years to pay for those courses? MR. KELLEY: The majority of them are indentured or on course now. A lot of the students that you see going back and forth between Clearwater buildings and the Fort Harrison are outer organization students or students that are staff members at another org. in another city, and they're just here because here we've got the best training. It's world renowned in the Scientology world that the best training is done here. So, consequently, these outer orgs. send their students here just to be Flag trained. That's like a — it's real important. It's a real honor and status, as it were. MR. LeCHER: Well, if you were young and you don't have family money and you only make $8.60 a week to $20.00 a week, how in the world are you or anyone else able eventually or ultimately pay all that money back? MR. KELLEY: You only — a staff member doesn't have to as long as he stays on staff. MR. LeCHER: But didn't another witness — MR. KELLEY: The courses are free if you work for the organization. MR. LeCHER: Oh, they're free if you work for the organization? MR. KELLEY: Right. You still have to sign the waivers and bonds and a promissory notes. For example — MR. LeCHER: If you leave, is that money a debt that you owe to them ? MR. KELLEY: Sort of. It's made to think like you have to pay it back, but, in fact it's not a legal debt. If I wanted to get back in Scientology now, I'd have to pay back for all the courses that I've already done. And that is a lot of money; that's thousands for the courses that I've already done. MR. LeCHER: Can you estimate how much it would cost for you to buy your way back into the organization? MR. KELLEY: I have no idea what my freeloader's debt is. It's probably thirty to forty thousand dollars easy. Thirty to forty thousand? MR. KELLEY: Easy. MR. LeCHER: And you were only in the Church of Scientology for three years? MR. KELLEY: Three years. MR. LeCHER: That's an average of ten thousand a year. MR. KELLEY: That's cheap. MR. LeCHER: That's cheap? MR. KELLEY: Relatively. There's people here that spend like seventy thousand dollars a year or more. MR. LeCHER: Seventy thousand a year or more? MR. KELLEY: Or more. MR. LeCHER: Do you know — would you like to be specific as to any names or — MR. KELLEY: Well, I don't know if that's a fair thing to do for a public person. There's a — MR. LeCHER: I don't — MR. KELLEY: — a man here from Europe who's been here — for the three years I was here, he was only gone for about two weeks the whole time — MR. LeCHER: Well, if that's the way they worship and that's what they want to do — Right. MR. LeCHER: — I wouldn't want t0 — MR. RELLEY: But there are people that spend seventy-eighty thousand dollars a year. MR. FLYNN: One moment, Mayor. MR. KELLEY: I was — one of the things was I was working for seventy, eighty hours a week , but I still had to sign the promissory notes to pay back in case I didn't complete my contract. My contract was a billion years. MR. LeCHER: A billion years? MR. KELLEY: Yes. All staff members that are staff here have signed a billion-year contract. MR. SHOEMAKER: Excuse me. Mr. Kelley, when you're referring to staff, is that the Sea Org. or — MR. KELLEY: Sea Org. staff, yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: And that is a one billion-year contract? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. LeCHER: Would a well-known personality, such as John Travolta, would he pay more than the average person or — is it the ability to pay as to how much you pay for courses? No. It's — it's a flat rate. MR. LeCHER: So — MR. KELLEY: The problem is the rate was pretty high. They — those people pay the same price as anyone else. MR. LeCHER: You would pay as much as a college student? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. LeCHER: Can you walk me through a typical day in the Church of Scientology — MR. KELLEY: It's a — MR. LeCHER: — from your point of view? MR. KELLEY: Right, from my experience in Clearwater. Boy, if I can remember. You get up at eight, seven-thirty or eight — I'm trying to remember now. You eat breakfast, be on post by nine, nine-fifteen, work until lunch, had an hour for lunch, then, work from twelve-forty-five in the afternoon until five-forty-five at night — in the afternoon, an hour for dinner, and then from six-forty-five until ten-thirty at night. Every day. You got a day off every other week if your statistics were up. If your stats were down, what happened to you? MR. KELLEY: You didn't get — you didn't have a liberty; you kept working. MR. LeCHER: Explain to me the stats again for the benefit of the new people watching. MR. KELLEY: Well — my stats? MR. LeCHER: No, no, what stats mean. MR. KELLEY: Statistics — you're graded by your statistics. Supposedly, in the organization, you're not graded by personality or who you know but by your statistics; that's what counts. It's statistics. Whatever it is that you do, say — say, you're the Director of Income, your statistics would be how much money you brought in. And if that graph is going up, then, you would get a liberty. If this graph was going down, you'd stay on post that day. There was one period when I went three months without a liberty, not a day off. MR. LeCHER: Three months? MR. KELLEY: Maybe four, at least three. MR. LeCHER: Most of this money that came in, was it coming in from local people or from outside people? MR. KELLEY: It was coming from outside. Much of it was coming in from Europe. MR. LeCHER: Much of it from Europe? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. LeCHER: Okay. I'd like to now give my colleagues a chance. And I'll start with Mrs. Garvey to my immediate right — far right. MRS. GARVEY: Mr. Kelley, I'd like to ask you to expand a little bit on what were your stats? How were you graded? MR. KELLEY: I had a really difficult major statistic, because
what I did was find information. I spent a lot of
time in treasury. I didn't do one specific thing
every day. So, I roamed around and did what was
needed, whether it be photocopying three thousand
copies of something or whatever it was. So, I MRS. GARVEY: For every job you did — MR. KELLEY: Right. MRS. GARVEY: — you got — MR. KELLEY: This was worth so many points — it was something I worked out between my superior and myself, this point value system that we had worked out. MRS. GARVEY: What did you do from six-thirty to ten o'clock at night? The same — MR. KELLEY: Oh, no. It was varied — for my job, it varied daily. I'd make a list of who — I'd make an arrivals list, who arrived, and I made a list of who was there. And I distributed — I'd type that up in four copies and run that around the org. so various people around the organization knew who had arrived the day before. That took up most of my morning. Then, in the afternoon, I would go get some photocopies or you get on the phone and you find phone numbers for people to make a phone list. It would vary daily. MRS. GARVEY: How many people would you record in, roughly? MR. KELLEY: I can remember, on weekly — new ones? It's hard
to remember because, after a while, I didn't count
people who had made a payment of five — fifty MRS. GARVEY: What would be, say, a typical course price for someone — MR. KELLEY: A thousand dollars. MRS. GARVEY: A thousand dollars is typical? MR. KELLEY: Fifteen hundred. There were courses, little courses, that were much cheaper. I think the cheapest course they had when I was there was $300.00, three hundred and fifty. MRS. GARVEY: Would you explain to the public what a freeloader's debt is? MR. KELLEY: A staff member — for example, each course that I did or each auditing action that I did, I signed a promissory note: "If I do not complete my contract, I will pay back X amount of dollars for this course." Well, that stuff's all kept in a file somewhere and, then, when you leave — normally, when a person leaves — doesn't complete his contract — what you're supposed to do is go through this rout out. You're supposed to go see like ten different people. And one of the things they do is they figure up your freeloader's debt. They take all the courses and the auditing that you've gotten — received while you're a staff member and say, "You owe us this amount." And you're expected to pay it back. But it's — it's made to — it's made to seem like a legal debt. There's very few people that — in my experience — ever paid their freeloader debt off and came back on staff and became a Scientologist in good standing. MRS. GARVEY: Do most people know that it's not a legal debt? MR. KELLEY: I think so, because I didn't see that many payments come in. MRS. GARVEY: But if they had left the organization, they obviously wouldn't want to pay to get back in? MR. KELLEY: Not necessarily. MRS. GARVEY: But you did see some payments come in? MR. KELLEY: Right. I know two people in North Dakota, a man and his wife, and their combined freeloader debt was $300,000.00. MRS. GARVEY: Were — did they — MR. KELLEY: And they were paying it back fifteen dollars a week. MR. LeCHER: Until it's paid off? MR. KELLEY: Yeah. MR. LeCHER: Go ahead. MRS. GARVEY: Would you explain to me, please, what Flag Base is? MR. KELLEY: When Scientology was headquartered on the ship, when the Sea Org. was on the ship — I don't recall — it was the Flag Ship. Scientology at that time had six or seven ships, I believe. It was the Flag Ship and the little fleet. When they came on land, first in Orlando, they became known as the Flag Land Base. It's just a — it's just another way of saying religious retreat, I guess. MRS. GARVEY: Is it the central base of the organization? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MRS. GARVEY: So, all orders would come out of the Flag Base? MR. KELLEY: Or else from wherever Ron was — where LRH was giving orders; it would come from him. Most of the orders to the organizations come from here to the West coast organization. MRS. GARVEY: So, if Ron Hubbard was sending an order, it would come through Clearwater Flag Base? MR. KELLEY: Right, usually. Most of — MRS. GARVEY: So, whatever happens comes through here? MR. KELLEY: Right. MRS. GARVEY: What got you into the organization in the first place? I know we've heard some of the past people talk about the leader's — Mr. Hubbard's background was so impressive that they just felt that he had so much to offer that they just had to go. What got you into it? That was a minor part of it for me. I never really did buy this L. Ron Hubbard privilege stuff. I never — I wasn't a very good Scientologist because I always had wandering doubts about Ron. You know, "If he's so magnanimous, why doesn't he show up and say ‘Hello' once in a while?" Getting back to the question: I was going to college at the time when I got in. And it — I was idealistic, also, you know, I was eighteen. And I was on my own for the first time. Someone said, "Hey, let's go to this open house, you know, they have a seminar." And I said, "Okay." We went to the seminar and I thought it wasn't too bad. They had a course you could do, so I did the course. And it was a communications course. It was the basic course that almost everyone does. And from there I was hooked, but that gets us into another realm. MRS. GARVEY: What did you get? I mean, did you get any promises? Did you feel that they were promising you something that was going to happen? MR. KELLEY: I felt like things were going to be a lot easier in life, you know. I felt like, "Boy, Scientology is really good, for the good of the planet. It's really going to help mankind." You know, I joined the Sea Org. to help stamp out insanity, criminal — war and crime; insanity, war, and crime. I thought that I was doing something great for the human race. MRS. GARVEY: Were you promised anything when you joined the Sea Org.? What did they tell you was going to happen to you when you joined the Sea Org., other than to stamp out war and crime and insanity? MR. KELLEY: That's a little vague, isn't it? I'm trying to remember what my recruiter did tell me. MRS. GARVEY: About — what about living conditions: where you were going to be, what your work schedule was going to be, what your job was? MR. KELLEY: I really don't think — I don't recall them ever discussing that sort of thing because everyone — even if they would have told me, I wouldn't have cared, you know, because my purpose was so — that's what I wanted to do so bad. "I'm going to Flag, wow." Needless to say, I was a bit disenchanted when I saw the men's dorm. MRS. GARVEY: What did you expect to find at Flag? MR. KELLEY: I expected to find maybe four people to a room — A college dorm-type situation? MR. KELLEY: Right. MRS. GARVEY: Do you know if — you know, one of the things that's promised — or there are three things. Auditing, did you do auditing? MR. KELLEY: I audited and was audited. MRS. GARVEY: And were you told that the auditing information was going to be confidential? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MRS. GARVEY: Would you, in fact, have gone through auditing if you had known it would be used against you at a later time? MR. KELLEY: No. MRS. GARVEY: Were you promised a refund if you — MR. KELLEY: I never paid for auditing. MRS. GARVEY: You were staff; that's right. MR. KELLEY: I paid for a course. MRS. GARVEY: Were you — oh — was there any — are you aware of any illnesses or mistreatment of children or lack of treatment for children7 Were you ever in that part of the building? MR. KELLEY: My wife was. Before the — whoever is in charge of that in the city, the Board of Health, who ever deals with that — MR. KELLEY: Right. You'd still be in the Sea Org. — MRS. GARVEY: — but you'd have to go someplace else? MR. KELLEY: Right. MRS. GARVEY: Why is that? MR. KELLEY: Because there was no room in the nursery for any additional children. MRS. GARVEY: But there were in the other areas? MR. KELLEY: Right. MRS. GARVEY: Did you ever keep track of the news in the area? You know, did you read the newspaper or listen to radio or television? MR. KELLEY: We were kind of discouraged from reading the Clearwater Sun for obvious reasons. MRS. GARVEY: Did you keep track of — MR. KELLEY: We really didn't care. It wasn't important to us. it wasn't. MRS. GARVEY: Fine. What were you told about the Guardian Office? MR. KELLEY: That they made the environment safe for Scientology to expand. That's their purpose, so we were told. exempt number. Did you have any knowledge — MR. KELLEY: I had none. MR. HATCHETT: None. MR. KELLEY: I never filed a tax return when I was here. MR. HATCHETT: I beg your pardon? MR. KELLEY: I never filed a tax form when I lived here. MR. HATCHETT: I'm talking about the organization itself. MR. KELLEY: I have no idea what their tax — MR. HATCHETT: Were you aware — did they ever have an IRS — MR. KELLEY: I knew they were tax exempt, but I had no idea what the specifics were. MR. HATCHETT: Well, those thirty to forty bank accounts in the Pinellas County area, were they actually in the Church of Scientology's name? MR. KELLEY: To my knowledge, they were. They weren't all in the Pinellas County area. They had banks in Tampa, around the area. MR. HATCHETT: Who normally made those deposits by name? MR. KELLEY: He was the Finance Banking Officer; MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, sir. But who actually did the regging and what did they do? MR. KELLEY: They — what they would do is they would — say, you were on the eastern United States tour, they'd have an advance man say, your next stop was Boston. The advance man would go to Boston, book the hall, you know — MR. SHOEMAKER: This is for information — MR. KELLEY: Right. He'd make a reservation for a place to hold the event, you know, it's for thousands of people. He would get a place in the local org. for the registrars to work, a phone, and the local org. would provide assistance. MR. SHOEMAKER: So, regging relates to the registrar? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. SHOEMAKER: Which is the person that takes in money — MR. KELLEY: Takes in money. MR. SHOEMAKER: — and does the recruiting for — MR. KELLEY: Right. A Class 12 auditor — MR. KELLEY: Oh. MR. SHOEMAKER: — is that somebody — MR. KELLEY: That's the highest stage you can get. MR. SHOEMAKER: That's the highest level you can get? MR. KELLEY: The only place — a regular organization is a Class 4 organization, and you can only train up to Class 4 auditors. And there's, I think, three organizations where they are Class 9 organizations. And Flag is a Class 12 organization. They're the only place that has a Class 12 auditor. MR. SHOEMAKER: And that relates directly to the level of training — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. SHOEMAKER: — that a person — MR. KELLEY: That's a highly, highly trained — MR. LeCHER: In Clearwater? MR. KELLEY: That's done here, right. The only place you can do it is here. Anyway, they send one of these people out — someone of that nature — and they would do the speaking. They would do the actual speaking at the event, you know, do the invoice machine and a calculator. MR. SHOEMAKER: During this process, did types of — were they promising things to people in terms of — regarding physical or mental corrections or saving of the world or what? MR. KELLEY: Not so much that at a regular — at a regular event. Those were done more at recruiting events when they try to get staff members. They'd talk about helping planet Earth. MR. SHOEMAKER: Were they — they would talk about helping the planet and so forth? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: What type of image were they placing forward regarding Mr. Hubbard? MR. KELLEY: Oh, like he was the greatest thing since — that he was just flawless. And that's a — every time we'd have a staff meeting here at Flag, at the end of it, we'd applaud Ron. You'd always stand up and give Ron a standing ovation because he's done this great thing for you. MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you ever see or meet Mr. Hubbard at — MR. KELLEY: No. MR. SHOEMAKER: — all? And that came directly back to Clearwater? MR. KELLEY: Right. Did — no. The Europe one, the money doesn't go directly back, and I don't know where that money goes. No one — that's a highly kept secret. MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, it is? MR. KELLEY: That's highly kept. MR. SHOEMAKER: But yet, you did indicate there were a lot of Europeans that came to — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. SHOEMAKER: Clearwater? MR. KELLEY: All we get is a little piece of typed paper. They're called "Central Files Information Slips," and it's a little strip of paper that tells what the payment was, what it was for, and the person's address. It says everything on it the invoice does, but the money didn't come here. And no one knows where — there's — that's very — a highly kept secret, highly kept secret where that person is. I don't know where that is. MR. SHOEMAKER: During your process — well, first of all, can you describe to us what a Suppressive Person is? MR. KELLEY: Anyone that has — wants to harm Right. They use symbols — you just don't talk about bad news, things bad that happen. For example, when that lady Scientologist committed suicide, you didn't talk about that stuff. That was — that was just — it wasn't positive; it didn't have a purpose. MR. SHOEMAKER: So, that would be included in any types of news stories or any type — MR. KELLEY: Oh, right. MR. SHOEMAKER: — of events outside that were — MR. KELLEY: Certainly. MR. SHOEMAKER: — you wouldn't talk about, as well as personal things? MR. KELLEY: Right. You didn't talk about your Mom dying or you didn't talk about the Clearwater Sun, for example. I keep — I don't mean to keep picking on the Clearwater Sun. MR. SHOEMAKER: No. I'm sure they're enjoying it. For instance, the RPF, you wouldn't talk about if somebody, a friend of yours — MR. KELLEY: No. MR. SHOEMAKER: — was in it? MR. KELLEY: Oh, no. MR. SHOEMAKER: You have nine folders? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MR. SHOEMAKER: In three years? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. SHOEMAKER: Could you compare it to, say, weekly, how frequently you went through with an auditing session? MR. KELLEY: It's hard to say because for several months you wouldn't get — you wouldn't receive any auditing; then, you received a whole bunch in a matter of weeks. MR. SHOEMAKER: Why? MR. KELLEY: Usually, just the luck of the draw. Staff members didn't have a real high priority on being audited. Obviously, the first job here in Clearwater is to deliver to the public, paying customers, and then, to us, the working class. And the higher up in the organization you are, the more likely you were to get auditing. MR. SHOEMAKER: Why? MR. KELLEY: This is the reward basis. MR. SHOEMAKER: So, the auditing was a reward — MR. KELLEY: Oh, sure. Right. You're — when you're on staff, you get — you're got through with their minister's course and got ordained. MR. SHOEMAKER: And that course took you — normally, how long did it take? MR. KELLEY: About four or five weeks. MR. SHOEMAKER: Four or five weeks — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. SHOEMAKER: — to become an ordained minister? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. SHOEMAKER: Are you familiar with the Fair Game Doctrine? MR. KELLEY: I've heard of it, but they've always said they denied it. MR. SHOEMAKER: What was the general. consensus of — MR. KELLEY: Well, the staff members, they feel it's been cancelled. MR. SHOEMAKER: They feel it has been cancelled? MR. KELLEY: Right. And the other people that don't feel it's been cancelled is the GO. MR. SHOEMAKER: What's the Fair Game Doctrine? MR. KELLEY: Well, it's if you get out; you're fair game. MR. SHOEMAKER: What does that mean to you? Basically, what it says. It's like: "If you're not with us, you're totally against us." MR. SHOEMAKER: And what is allowed to occur to those of you that are totally against or — MR. KELLEY: It depends on how against they are. If they're vehemently and loudly against scientology, making noise about it, then, the Fair Game Policy says that you go get them, that you discredit them, et cetera, et cetera. MR. SHOEMAKER: What kinds of means can you use to do that? MR. KELLEY: I don't know; I wasn't in the GO. I don't want to get into my supposition stages; I don't know. MR. SHOEMAKER: I — if I might ask — MR. KELLEY: Just things that I've read or things that I'm familiar with: the normal phone calls, cancelling flights, and — MR. SHOEMAKER: So, you're speaking, basically, about — MR. KELLEY: Just on hearsay information, just on information that I have heard from others. MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes, sir, I understand. You're not — you haven't been involved in it. Well, I have. MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh, you have? MR. CALDERBANK: People who don't pay the money? MRS. GARVEY: No. MR. KELLEY: No. The incident with my sister-in-law that I stated yesterday. I look — I guess I was fair game — well, my brother was fair game, actually. MR. SHOEMAKER: But the — any type of general harrassment — would you say that this was — although the average Scientologist said this, did you believe that this occurred until the — MR. KELLEY: No. MR. SHOEMAKER: — this incident that happened to — MR. KELLEY: No. MR. SHOEMAKER: — your sister-in-law? MR. KELLEY: No. MR. SHOEMAKER: You did not? MR. KELLEY: No. The average Scientologist doesn't know that sort of thing goes on. He has no idea. He just thinks it's just something that the papers make up to sell papers. MR. SHOEMAKER: Would you say that the — to the best of your knowledge, that the situations which you've described are probably still going on now or — MR. KELLEY: I'd be very amazed if they weren't still happening. I know the men's dorm is no longer in effect. They don't have — they just turned that into an office. MR. SHOEMAKER: One other question: Mr. Kelley, I noticed today coming in there's a big sign out. Initially, there was a big sign on the Fort Harrison which said that it was open to the public two p.m. on Sunday. M. KELLEY: Right. MR. SHOEMAKER: Now, there's a big sign that says, “Open House from nine a.m. to nine p.m. today,” which, I guess, is a plug that I just gave. Would you expect this to be a normal type of a response, based upon some type of a public inquiry being made into the Church or — MR. KELLEY: Yes. That's what we did when Mr. Tenney was leading his pomp against Scientologists. When he started making a lot of noise, then, they opened their doors. I used to be a security guard at the front desk at the Fort Harrison, also. MR. SHOEMAKER: I know that there were a lot of lights on last night when we went home. MR. KELLEY: They were probably cleaning the place up. MRS. GARVEY: Cleaning the place up? MR. KELLEY: Well, you know, making it really shine in the public areas. MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you. MR. LeCHER: When you were a security guard, what did you do as a security guard? MR. KELLEY: Sat at the front desk at the Fort Harrison and just allowed no loonies to walk in, basically. MR. LeCHER: What if a loony walked in, what would you do and — MR. KELLEY: Normally, help him walk out. MR. LeCHER: Did you have a gun or billy — MR. KELLEY: No, no. You got — there was a club if you ever used it. You just sat there and — no, there is no guns at Fort Harrison, but there's a little — there's a nightstick there, but no one ever uses it. That I know of, there was no guns. MR. LeCHER: There was a directive — about Fair Game, did you ever see a directive that the Fair Game potential for divorce is always so great? MR. KELLEY: I honestly do not know. I think — I have an idea that a friend of mine — that's the way he did his. But I have — I have no concrete information on that. That's the kind of thing you didn't really — until Al had done it to me, I didn't have any idea that that was even possible. And that wasn't too long before I got out of Scientology. MR. LeCHER: As a minister, were you able to marry people? MR. KELLEY: Certainly. I never did, because I was too nervous in front of other people. The marriage — the Scientology marriage ceremony isn't bad; it's rather — it's a nice little ceremony, but I wouldn't have been able to do one. MR. LeCHER: I was curious as to how many real marriages there are. The Sea Org.: Now, what is it, how does it function, who is in charge, when were you there, and what did you find? MR. KELLEY: The Sea Org. is the overall, more or less, fraternal organization. It stands for Sea Organization. When Scientology — when Ron was on the ship, There's Captain Bill. There's rank in the Sea Org., also. MR. LeCHER: Captain Bill? MR. KELLEY: Yes. There's rank. You start as swamper, you go to petty officer, you go to chief, you go to warrant officer, ensign, lieutenant, NJ — it's like in the Navy. MR. LeCHER: What were you? MR. KELLEY: Swamper. I never — MR. LeCHER: Swamper? MR. KELLEY: I never made it to petty officer, third class. I never went to study. Part of the things — one of the things that — one of the requirements for — to be selected was you had to go to course, you had to study. And I never did. The only time I ever did was when I was doing the minister's course. MR. LeCHER: How could a swamper or someone that — someone as young as you, be entrusted to handle so much money? MR. KELLEY: I didn't handle it, actually; I just looked at it. No, seriously, I didn't — all I did was handle invoices. I wrote some invoices, but I had — the actual money, itself, the checks and the cash, very few people handled that, very few. I was — I handled the invoices. There are people that were younger than I am in positions of much greater responsibility, much greater and much younger: twelve, thirteen, you know. MR. LeCHER: Twelve or thirteen years old? MR. KELLEY: Right, Commodore's Messenger Organization. He's got a small army of them. MR. LeCHER: An army of twelve- or thirteen-year olds? MR. KELLEY: Oh — or younger, ten, maybe. Ten might be the youngest. MR. LeCHER: All right. Tell me about the messengers. Are they messengers or are they army? MR. KELLEY: They're messengers. They're children that — MR. LeCHER: Army of messengers? MR. KELLEY: No — well, I said small army. MR. LeCHER: Are they like pages? MR. KELLEY: They're a — sometimes. And sometimes they're like the executives. A lot of them do executive — some of the — most of the younger ones don't have positions of vast authority, but if one of them had told me what to do, I would have said, “Yes, sir.” MR. LeCHER: He would have — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. LeCHER: What is the CMO? MR. KELLEY: Commodore's Messenger Org. MR. LeCHER: And that's what we're talking about now? MR. KELLEY: Right. They're the guys with the blue lanyards. MR. LeCHER: The blue manuals? MR. KELLEY: Lanyards. MR. LeCHER: Lanyards, oh. They're walking — I've seen them. MR. KELLEY: If you see one with just blue in it, that's probably someone in the Commodore's Messenger Organization. MR. LeCHER: Probably. MR. KELLEY: Then, there's — the blue lanyard means Ron's personal staff. MR. LeCHER: Ron's personal staff? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. LeCHER: They would handle — they're the ones that handle most of the money? MR. KELLEY: No. No, no. MR. KELLEY: No, no, I didn't say that. The ones that handle most of the money are the treasury personnel, the Director of Income, the Treasury Secretary. At the level I was at, you know, we're like I said, European money goes somewhere — I have no idea where it is. Who knows who handles that money? MR. LeCHER: What is — are there many members of Ron's personal staff in Clearwater? MR. KELLEY: I would guess around a hundred. MR. LeCHER: What is their — why does Ron need that hundred people in Clearwater? What is their main function? MR. KELLEY: To keep an eye on the Clearwater operation. MR. LeCHER: To keep an eye on you or me? MR. KELLEY: No. To keep an eye on — MR. LeCHER: On the money? MR. KELLEY: On the money and the technical delivery and the management organization. To keep an eye on everything. They also do what are called missions. They will
come into your area and almost take it over, like if
your area or your office was doing — the Commodore's
Messenger Organization would come
in on a mission and MR. BERFIELD: Is this like a Gestapo? MR. KELLEY: They're not very pleasant people to deal with. That's the way I always felt about — I only had one mission in my time there in my area, and it was not a pleasant experience. MR. LeCHER: What happens if you fall in disfavor with a CMO member? MR. KELLEY: You'll soon find yourself in a blue tee shirt scrubbing a garage, usually. Those — those guys don't mess around. They will — I was told point blank once: “One more” — MR. LeCHER: Threats. Sir, I'm sorry. Will you give me your experience with the CMO. MR. KELLEY: They're just — one thing was when I was going — when I had a CMO mission in my area, it was originally thought that I was the reason for the entire organization's downfall. The entire organization's statistics were on a downward slide, and they originally thought it was from me because I had — wasn't giving accurate information. So, I was in a lot of heat from everybody. And this was also the time of great emotional stress with my wife. And Frank had told me that I had to make a choice. I had to tell my wife either stay or go, but he wanted me to go tell her one thing or the other right then and report back to him, because it was weighing too heavily on me; it was taking my attention away from my job. MR. LeCHER: You mean, the CMO — MR. KELLEY: Mr. Freedman was his name. MRS. GARVEY: Frank Freedman? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. LeCHER: He said, “You either control your wife and your personal life,” like stay with your wife or not stay with your wife? MR. KELLEY: He did that time. MR. LeCHER: All for the good of the CMO? MR. KELLEY: Right. Well, all for the good of the organization because it was pulling me away from my post. It was causing too much attention. MR. LeCHER: Did anyone ever live in the garage? MR. KELLEY: Yeah, the RPF did. MR. LeCHER: The RPF? MR. KELLEY: Right, the Rehabilitation Project Force. MR. LeCHER: What were conditions like in the garage? MR. KELLEY: They weren't a whole lot better than they were in the men's dorm. Three-high bunks and — there wasn't much need for air conditioning, but it was — I was only in there a couple of times, and it was, you know, bare walls, concrete walls, plywood on one side, plywood walls. MR. LeCHER: Did you personally see this? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MR. LeCHER: And you lived there for — MR. KELLEY: No. MR. LeCHER: — a short time? MR. KELLEY: Yes — no, I never lived inside that; I was never in the RPF. MR. LeCHER: But there were people that lived in a garage? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. LeCHER: Did you live in the garage? MR. KELLEY: No. I was never in the RPF. MR. LeCHER: You were never in the RPF. MR KELLEY: Right. I never got into trouble. MR. LeCHER: But you did see firsthand knowledge that — MR. KELLEY: Those conditions did exist. — those conditions did exist? Do you think they still do? MR. KELLEY: I'm almost positive of it. MR. LeCHER: What do you think: If I left this meeting on our break and went down to the Open House for Scientology, would I be treated warmly? MR. KELLEY: You would be treated with complete terror on first walking in. And then, once they got someone to talk to you — the security guard would have some kind of an attack, I'm sure: “My God, the Mayor's here.” And then, when he got someone that was more capable or qualified or that was their job, they would show you around. They'd show you the chapel; they'd show you the classroom upstairs, the lobby, you know, these real innocuous things. You know, they won't show you some of the more grisly conditions, you know, say, a crowded dormitory room or, heaven forbid, the RPF auditing room, or — MRS. GARVEY: What's the RPF auditing room? MR. KELLEY: — the — anything else, you know. They'll just show you this, you know, nice, clean — MR. LeCHER: What is the RPF auditing room? Mrs. Garvey was thinking out loud. What really is the RPF auditing room? I'd like to know, too. MR. KELLEY: Just a big room in the garage where they do their auditing. Normally, auditing is done in a private room. But in the RPF, you've got four or five guys auditing in the same room. MR. LeCHER: Okay. We are running out of time and I want to get to Mr. Berfield and Mr. Calderbank and give them some time, so I will give it to Mr. Berfield — Mr. Calderbank, and if he wants to follow up on CMO and the hundred men — people here and anything about the disquieting effect they have on the City of Clearwater. MR. CALDERBANK: Casey, you were given specific money for a job, eight-sixty a week, then, seventeen-twenty per week? MR. KELLEY: Right. And then, it went up to $20.00 a week. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you have hours, specific hours you had for work? MR. KELLEY: There was a muster that I was supposed to attend. MR. CALDERBANK: That they required? Right. It was right after breakfast, right after meals. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever sign any — did you ever see a W-2 form? MR. KELLEY: Yeah, when I first came on staff. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you sign it? MR. KELLEY: As far as I know, I did. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever give a social security number or a waiver for your salary? MR. KELLEY: I'm trying to remember if I — I'm sure I did; I must have, because that's on the W-2 form, isn't it? I know I never filed a tax form. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you file a waiver for that — MR. KELLEY: I don't think so. MR. CALDERBANK: When you — when you did the paperwork, you said you saw almost all the invoices? MR. KELLEY: All of the invoices. MR. CALDERBANK: All of them? MR. KELLEY: All of them. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever see any invoices for, say, private interests? MR. KELLEY: For a business? MR. CALDERBANK: Yes. On occasion. I'm trying — I've been trying to remember for the last two days what they were, though. I remember one in Los Angeles. Mostly people paid in their own names. There was a couple of smaller businesses that were owned by Scientologists, but they had their own account for the business. MR. CALDERBANK: In the Church? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: And they owned this business as a private individual? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. MR.. KELLEY: And they would have these documents on them. MR. CALDERBANK: Do you know that for a fact? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Can you give me a name? MR. LeCHER: We're not really — I've been advised not to have you give names because that — MR. CALDERBANK: Did you have personal experience with that? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. It may be objectionable to some people. MR. CALDERBANK: Right. Someone else — or you mentioned, also, that you had a person prior to you that falsified statistics? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Is that a widespread practice on an — MR. KELLEY: Not after him. MR. CALDERBANK: Are there checks? MR. KELLEY: Huh? MR. CALDERBANK: Are there any checks implemented now to — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: — to see if anyone is falsifying statistics? MR. KELLEY: There is on the income statistics. It’s still very easy to falsify a statistic, but that’s a high crime. That’s — you’d be in a major amount of trouble for falsifying — MR. CALDERBANK: Would it be a high crime to falsify to an outside government? MR. KELLEY: Oh. It would be a high crime to falsify to Scientology let alone someone outside the organization. MR. CALDERBANK: What about the money — you said you had thirty bank accounts in many different — MR. KELLEY: Thirty’s a rough guess. MR. CALDERBANK: About — in many different accounts within the Church. Were any specifically in the GO office? MR. KELLEY: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: Could you trace any — you’ve heard of activities in the GO that could be considered criminal in nature. MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever see any invoices, specifically — MR. KELLEY: No. MR. CALDERBANK: lining that up? MR. KELLEY: No. The invoices that I saw were all money coming in. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. MR. KELLEY: I didn’t see any money going out. MR. CALDERBANK: Was there any way you could have been able to tell, just by the records that you had, whether or not the money was going for those types of activities? No. MR. CALDERBANK: Are there other buildings outside of Clearwater that Scientology owns? MR. KELLEY: Well, there are — MR. CALDERBANK: Others — MR. KELLEY: Well, there’s orgs. — there’s — they own buildings around the world. MR. CALDERBANK: Are they used by private individuals? MR. KELLEY: Not to my knowledge. MR. CALDERBANK: All right. You talked about the money and investment, and you used the specific word “invest.” Do you remember that when you talked — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: — about gold? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: Is that when gold was going up? MR. KELLEY: That was a very vague conversation, so that’s why I was very vague yesterday. It was mentioned in passing in an office that I was in. MR. CALDERBANK: Do you remember the name of the person that mentioned. it? MR. KELLEY: Mr. Shomer. He talked about, perhaps, buying gold when it was on its way up? MR. KELLEY: Right, because he made a small — he makes personal money on it. MR. CALDERBANK: He made personal money on it? MR. KELLEY: Yes. Out of his own personal funds, he bought some silver or something and he sold it later at a much higher price. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. Do you have any idea of whether or not the money that comes into the Church is used in this type of investment? MR. KELLEY: I have no idea if it — I don’t — MR. CALDERBANK: But it was talked about? MR. KELLEY: It was discussed. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. When you talked, also, about people as Mr. Hagen in Europe, you mentioned that — MR. KELLEY: Hegetschweiler. MR. CALDERBANK: Hegetschweiler. You talked about bonuses, percentages, you talked about commissions. MR. KELLEY: Right. There were certain specific commissions for services rendered? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: And you always called them services, correct? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: And there was specific money paid for specific services? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: Specific hours? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. And — MR. KELLEY: Sometimes specific auditors, too. MR. CALDERBANK: — money — specific auditors, too? MR. KELLEY: Sometimes. MR. CALDERBANK: Fulfilling their task within the organization? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: Did they receive commissions, also? MR. KELLEY: Registrars usually — I can't remember what the percentage was. Those people made decent money. Were any of these people registered with the state who were taking commissions? MR. KELLEY: Not to my knowledge. MR. CALDERBANK: When — if there were potential problems, do you think anyone that would want to see the flow of money either coming in or going out of the Church, do you think that would, in your own personal opinion — would that stop any person, his being able to participate in the activities of Scientology? MR. KELLEY: Can you rephrase that and say it again? MR. CALDERBANK: It's hard to rephrase. MR. LeCHER: Well, say it again so he understands what he's going to say. MR. CALDERBANK: If those invoices were made public that you saw going across your desk every day — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: — and if the people that were giving the money in checks, the registrars — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: — if those were tallied and were available — which you did, you said four or five hundred thousand dollars — if those were tallied and those were available or in a statement form, would that prevent anybody that paid the money from obtaining the services? MR. KELLEY: No. MR. CALDERBANK: You don't think it would stop them from participating in what they paid for? MR. KELLEY: No. Once they paid — let me see if I get you right, if I understand. MR. CALDERBANK: I'm asking if people that donated — MR. KELLEY: They always get that service. That's unless for some reason they didn't want to do that specific service; they could do another service. MR. CALDERBANK: So, basically, the question is: Tracing that money won't stop people from getting the services? MR. KELLEY: Right. The money is — the money is — the accounting isn't too bad, it's usually fairly accurate. MR. CALDERBANK: And it wouldn't stop them from enjoying what they find in Scientology? MR. KELLEY: Right. How would it — wait a minute. How would it stop them, because it's just money that they've paid, right? MR. CALDERBANK: I wanted to ask you because you are the first witness that has the most intimate — It's like — MR. CALDERBANK: — knowledge about the money — MR. KELLEY: It's like buying — like paying for a room in a hotel, you know. You get an invoice and, then, you go ahead and stay in the hotel. MR. CALDERBANK: Why do you keep referring to it as services? MR. KELLEY: That's what they're called. MR. CALDERBANK: Was anyone ever given — MR. KELLEY: It's a service — MR. CALDERBANK: Right. MR. KELLEY: — as opposed to goods and services; it's a service. MR. CALDERBANK: Have you ever seen anyone get a service for less than going price? MR. KELLEY: No. That was not allowed. MR. CALDERBANK: Was it ever — MR. KELLEY: It's a flat rate and that's what you paid. You could get a five percent discount for going — for paying early. Five percent? I think it was five percent; it could have been ten. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. When you were talking about auditing, you said that people would be stopped half way through if they paid, like, say, twenty thousand; that's the number you used — MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: And did you say that they had been told — or have you ever heard it as a policy that without further auditing they may become ill? MR. KELLEY: That happened. That was a common technique. MR. CALDERBANK: That was a common technique, telling someone they would get ill? MR. KELLEY: If — it was — if they were in the middle of an auditing action. Let's say you paid for, let's say, twenty-five hours to complete such and such a rundown, and you got to the end of that twenty-five hours and you still hadn't finished, that was the common technique: "You're going to get sick if you don't finish this," you know. So, you have to buy — MR. CALDERBANK: If you don't finish it, you have to buy — MR. KELLEY: You have to buy another intensive; you have to buy another twelve and-a-half hours. MR. CALDERBANK: What about the waivers that you signed? They were actual — they told you that they would stand up in a court of law and they were acceptable? MR. KELLEY: No, I was never told that. But, boy, they sure looked — they looked legal. I mean, "Whereas" — you know, they had legal terminology. MR. CALDERBANK: Did that make you feel that if you left you could be sued for the money on the freeloader's debt or whatever? MR. KELLEY: Nobody reads them. They didn't. One of the things that you sign — when you do a course, you sign a promissory note and an invoice; that's staff members. You never read that stuff because you're usually in a hurry to go start the course. MR. CALDERBANK: Did you think it was legal at the time you did it? MR. KELLEY: I didn't know. It looked it. It looked pretty legal. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. Then, the last area: Since you saw the invoices, did you see any invoices for textbooks, say, Calculus, Biology — MR. KELLEY: Never. MR. CALDERBANK: No textbooks? MR. KELLEY: Never. Once in a while a dictionary. They sold dictionaries in the bookstore. MR. CALDERBANK: So you never saw, say, regular schoolbooks for children ever purchased from the Church fund? MR. KELLEY: That — again, that's money going out. MR. CALDERBANK: Yes. But the company would bill you with an invoice, wouldn't they? MR. KELLEY: Yes. But that was still — that was going money out. I wouldn't see that. MR. CALDERBANK: And you never saw money spent forfire extinguishers, extinguisher — MR. KELLEY: I know that — I know that that sort of — I know — I think they're legal on that sort of thing. I know the Clearwater building is because the lights have gone out a few times, those little lights they have over the entranceways. Those go on — MR. CALDERBANK: Did you ever see money leave Church to perform any of those functions? MR. KELLEY: I never saw money leave the Church. That's a different — see, the place I spent most of my time was in the other part of the — which is the income, the Director of Income. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. MR. KELLEY: And the place the money went out from was the disbursement end. It was just — it was in another building, another office. And my last question is: You mentioned that you had gotten food poisoning. MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: A few times? MR. KELLEY: Two or three. MR. CALDERBANK: Two or three? MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. CALDERBANK: Where had you eaten that food? MR. KELLEY: In the — in a room in the Clearwater building and in the Fort Harrison building. MR CALDERBANK: Was that — MR. KELLEY: That was fairly — that happened — MR. CALDERBANK: — common? MR. KELLEY: Yes. When somebody would get it, usually, a few people got it. And you went to sick bay and they gave you some vitamins and you went to bed. That's usually what I did. I just would sleep. I'd be all right in a day or two. MR. CALDERBANK: No further questions. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield. MR. BERFIELD: Mr. Mayor, if you will recall, I started this off yesterday, but I did have a couple of questions that I didn't get a chance to ask. Mr. Kelley, there seems to be a thread running through here of vagueness in names. Is that because of a part — MR. KELLEY: No. It's an unwillingness to give names. I can give you names, addresses. MR. BERFIELD: You mean, if we ask for the names and the addresses, they are available to us? MR. KELLEY: Certainly. I can give you names. MR. BERFIELD: Okay. The other situation is that you keep referring to — in Mr. Calderbank's questioning here — the money going out. MR. KELLEY: Right. MR. BERFIELD: And this being somewhat of a para — it seems to have a military organization to it, if there was a need to know and you went across and asked where this money went, what would happen to you? MR. KELLEY: They'd probably tell you to — they'd probably say to leave them alone because it wasn't — it was what they call unnecessary noise. You don't need to know. MR. BERFIELD: So, it goes back to military: Just what you need to know is — MR. KELLEY: Right, basically. MR. BERFIELD: Just one last question here: You referred to this RPF auditing room as awesome. What was so much more awesome about it than any of the other auditing rooms? MR. KELLEY: Well, a regular auditing room is just one — it's just you in the room. And the RPF — there's another unit that used to do their auditing in the same room. It's just a big — big room with about four or five tables in it, and that's where you do your auditing. I mean, you'd be auditing here and someone else would be next to you auditing on a totally different thing. That gets into a strange — they used to get into a strange phenomenon at times. MR. BERFIELD: Well, about the RPF auditing room, you had specifically said that there was something awesome about that. What's awesome? MR. KELLEY: Well, comparatively, because in a regular auditing room, that's where you're doing your counseling. And it's between you and your auditor. That doesn't — I don't need to go into that. But that's a real quiet place and it's real private. And the RPF auditing room is so noisy, you know. There was a lot of people in there. It was also clutter and that sort of thing. When I first came on staff, I was in the Flag Readiness Room, and in that operation we did the same thing. We audited in this big room. And that — that's all. It's just real cluttered and large. MR. BERFIELD: I have no further questions. MR. LeCHER: All right. MRS. GARVEY: In auditing, were you told that the E-Meter was scientifically based or not? MR. KELLEY: Scientifically based? Yes. MRS. GARVEY: That they were scientifically based? MR. KELLEY: Right, that it was a scientific instrument that would run a small matter of charges through your body that measures electronically — or electrically. LeCHER: I just have one — two quickies. What is IMO? Then we're going to go — MR. KELLEY: IMO? MR. LeCHER: It's evidenced with — MR. KELLEY: IMO? MR. LeCHER: "See your executives, the IMO." MR. KELLEY: CMO? MR. LeCHER: Is that — I make it IMO. MR. KELLEY: CMO. MR. LeCHER: It's the International Management Board? MR KELLEY: If it is, it's come on since I left. MR. LeCHER: It's 1981. One other question: You talked about giving money for a room as a — more or less of a donation or as for services. You also said that for anything that they sold there. You also mentioned getting a five percent discount. Do you think it's possible to get a five percent discount on a donation? MR. KELLEY: Oh, yeah. See, there's an advance payment discount — MR. LeCHER: No, no. If I buy something and I pay cash, I might get five percent. But how can you get five percent off a donation? It doesn't seem — MR. KELLEY: Oh, how can you get the five percent itself? I don't understand what you — MR. LeCHER: Well. MR. KELLEY: That would be a discount. MR. CALDERBANK: He doesn't understand. MR. KELLEY: Say, the services were originally $15,000.00, the discount would be twelve thousand five hundred whatever. MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you ever hear the word "donation"? MR. KELLEY: Oh, sure. That's what they were considered, donations. MR. LeCHER: My question is: How could you give a discount on a donation? I can see you giving me a discount on — MR. KELLEY: Oh, I see what — MR. LeCHER: — a purchase because you pay cash, but you can't give a discount on a donation. MR. KELLEY: I see. Good point. They were called — they were called donations. There was also a five percent discount. MR. LeCHER: Okay. Was your brother's name in an auditing folder? You mentioned your brother was upset with your — MR. KELLEY: He was more likely in my Ethics folder. MR. LeCHER: So, that's how they tracked down your brother or — MR. KELLEY: Quite possibly. They may have possibly wire tapped; he was calling around the country trying to find out something about Scientology. Because no one else knew I was there but — MR. LeCHER: Do you know anything about wire taps? I know that they have been used with other people. MR. LeCHER: With members or enemies? MR. KELLEY: Enemies, always enemies. That's not — that's not personal knowledge while I was in Clearwater. It's knowledge I ascertained after I got out. MR. LeCHER: All right. Then, it's not firsthand that you actually saw — MR. KELLEY: No. MR. LeCHER: We have to try to go through five witnesses today, ladies and gentlemen. And we have no more questions, at least, I have none. I have plenty to ask you, but I think we better get moving. I want to thank you for coming. Do you want to say anything in conclusion? MR. KELLEY: No, I don't. I think I've pretty much said what I wanted to say. MR. LeCHER: Thank you very much for coming. Now, we — you have another witness? MR FLYNN: I do, Mayor. And I'd just like to make — Rosie Pace, please — a little point of information, if I could, for the benefit of, perhaps, the city and the Commission. As a consultant, I have endeavored to present a cross-section of different witnesses on different levels of the organization, and — of which Mr. Kelley represents one particular level as Mr. Walters represented a particular level: a policy level, as opposed to Mr. Kelley, for instance, being on the level that he was on as he described it. And it might be something that should be kept in mind as different witnesses may have participated in very compartmentalized activities, such as Guardian's Office activities as opposed to Treasury Division activities in terms of very isolated jobs. And you might find that different witnesses look at the organization in terms of their experiences on the level that they were operating on. The next witness is an individual named Rosie Pace and, while she's coming in, I'll quickly introduce a few documents. MR. LeCHER: All right. Rosie Pace is the next witness; is that correct? It's not — MR. FLYNN: No. We'll go with Rosie Pace now. MR. LeCHER: Do you want to lower this — MR. FLYNN: If I could, please. Exhibit No. 30 will be a Hubbard Communications Office policy letter in June 1959. And I will refer the Commission to the bottom of the page dealing with "duplicate contracts, releases and promissory notes." And the relevant portion is as follows: "Any staff member signing up a preclear student or PE attendee will get one original and one carbon copy of each contract, release, and promissory note necessary to be signed." And then, skipping down to the last paragraph: "The carbon copy of the contract and release, along with the yellow invoice, is routed to the Associate Secretary and from him to the department head concerned: the Director of Processing, the Director of Training, or the PE Foundation Director. After being reviewed by the department head, these are then routed for filing in the administrative division of each department. A carbon copy of the promissory note is routed to the Director of Accounts. The policy — this policy must be rigidly enforced as it saves much expense in administrative time." It's copyrighted by L. Ron Hubbard. (A copy of a policy letter from Hubbard Communications Office, dated June 1959, was marked as Exhibit No. 30, as of this date.) The next document — the next document is a form affidavit. (A copy of an affidavit was marked as Exhibit No. 31, as of this date.) MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Flynn, if I might ask: For instance, on that last document, it said it was copyrighted by L. Ron Hubbard and it said Mary Sue Hubbard for L. Ron Hubbard. Would you explain that as to what effect that has from a legal point of view? MR. FLYNN: Everything — or 99.9 percent of the publications of the Church of Scientology are copyrighted by L. Ron Hubbard. At various points in time in connection with various areas of responsibility, such as Guardian's Office activities, there was an immediate level of recognition in responsibility below L. Ron Hubbard, and that was, primarily, Guardian's Office Legal Affairs and Guardian's Office B 1 Activities, which is intelligence gathering activities, for which Mary Sue Hubbard was directly responsible. So, in those types of publications, her name also appears. And Exhibit 31 is a form affidavit for the Church of Scientology with regard to — and I won't bother reading through all this because we have a number of forms for people who actually signed them. But basically, it's a promise not to divulge any information about the Church of Scientology without the prior consent of Hubbard, its members, and the organization itself. MR. BERFIELD: Counsel, where are these coming from, so that we know they're not something that's just being made up? MR. FLYNN: All right. Well, the HCO policy letter comes right out of a set of green volumes which, in order to — in view of the time constraints we're working under, I would have to put into evidence all of the green volumes. If it becomes necessary, we'll do that. There's some twelve of them. And all of the ten red technical bulletins. And if it becomes necessary, we'll do that. But the amount of the paperwork the Commission could be confronted with in a very short time would be unwieldy. MR. BERFIELD: No. I mean, if you would just address that so that — MRS. GARVEY: Just say where it's coming from. MR. BERFIELD: — just where it's — MR. FLYNN: That's where it's coming from. And if need be, at the conclusion of the hearings, we can just simply put all of those books into evidence and correlate them to the particular xerox copies that I'm introducing now. And the form affidavit is also such a document. The next exhibit, Affidavit of Janet Troy, is — and there will be an affidavit signed by Janet Troy relative to this document and relative to other matters that are involved with the Church of Scientology, which will be introduced at a later time and we'll tie the two together. Basically, if you go down to paragraph six, Janet has stated that she "hereby discharges fully and releases L. Ron Hubbard, any Scientologist, and Scientology course, their assigns and successors from all rights, claims, or any actions myself or any successor or assigned to myself may have now or hereafter the signing of this agreement against L. Ron Hubbard, any person, any Scientology Church, their assigns or successors. This release is freely and voluntarily executed by myself with my understanding of the terms used herein and the consequences resulting therefrom. "That I do hereby waive all rights to refund or repayment of any donations that I have made or will make in the future to the Church of Scientology. I waive this right of my own free will." (A copy of the Affidavit of Janet Troy was marked as Exhibit No. 31, as of this date.) MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Flynn, is that legal? MR. FLYNN: I believe the evidence will be that in — for most people entering Scientology, they're made to sign these documents at the outset and, for the most part, they have no idea what they're signing. At various points during their proceeding through Scientology, when difficulties arise — if difficulties arise — and as the last witness testified, he left, and during the time he was in he was never in the RPF; so, no difficulties arose until he had already left. And afterward, his brother — his brother's wife was visited by some unknown people. But if difficulties arise of a substantial nature during the period that they're in the Church, I believe the evidence will show that these people are made to believe that, these documents are enforceable in a court of law. And I also believe that the evidence will show that items such as I'm about to introduce indicate that promissory notes, legal promissory notes, were signed. In fact, when you asked me, "Is it legal," well, I would say that the thing is utterly unenforceable. But the issue is whether or not the people are made to believe that it might be enforceable. MR. LeCHER: Didn't one of the witnesses say that they were told that the money would be — it would be a money back guarantee, and some, at least, tried to get their money back and they were promised but never received it? MR. FLYNN: That's true. I think that the testimony there and the testimony in the future will be that they are told about a refund policy, but, in fact, as you just saw in the Janet Troy Affidavit, it's often times — most of the time they sign documents that they don't even realize they're signing, saying they can't get a refund. And then, they are led to another policy which says they can get a refund. So, there's a conflict between the two policies. And most of the time, the people have no idea what their rights are. MRS. GARVEY: Was Janet Troy a staff member? MR. FLYNN: Janet Troy was a staff member; that's correct. MRS. GARVEY: Is it different for a staff member than it is for a Scientologist that's coming for a course It is. The people that sign — there are different types of waivers and different types of releases that are signed for contract or staff members as opposed to a public person who is just coming to get services. For instance, the first affidavit that I introduced in blank form was for someone who was a public person. The one I just introduced is for a staff member. MR. CALDERBANK: But these are made or represented to the people as legal, documents, binding in the outside world? MR. FLYNN: As I indicated before, for the most part, when they're signing them, they don't even know what they're signing. When difficulties arise, they are presented with the fact that they are enforceable documents and they can be used against them in a court of law. And in fact, there will be affidavits in evidence to that effect, which brings up one more point. In view of the time and cost constraints of the four days that we're laboring under and the seventeen or so witnesses we're going to try to get through, I'm presenting affidavits of people on some subjects to corroborate other pieces of evidence. If the city at some point, having its appetite whetted, so to speak, about the potential scope of this subject saw fit to continue the hearings and bring in more witnesses, I would suggest to the Commission that there are many, many more witnesses who could come in and testify about specific points. MR. CALDERBANK: Are these individual malcontents or are there many people like this who have been going through the same or similar circumstances where they've been threatened, harrassed, apparently, threatened to be sued by L. Ron Hubbard? MR. FLYNN: What I have endeavored to do is rather than bring witnesses who have just been harrassed, I endeavored to bring in witnesses who represent a cross-section of their experiences in Scientology so that the Commission, I believe, at the end of four days will have experiences with different people in different positions who experienced different things in the organization, rather than just a selection of victims who have been harrassed, some of which you will hear about in detail. MR. LeCHER: One thing about the contracts: You mentioned — the young man, Mr. Kelley, mentioned about young people younger than him, younger than eighteen, that were twelve and thirteen and handling vast sums of money. Do they also sign these contracts? MR. FLYNN: The next exhibit is an exhibit of Tonja Burden — it's a multi-page exhibit with some fifty or seventy thousand dollars of promissory notes — who worked for the organization from the age of thirteen to the age of seventeen. She never was given any education in this city; she was for two years and three months. And as you will see from the exhibit, she signed releases, non-disclosure bonds, promissory notes — MR. LeCHER: At what age did she sign these? MR. FLYNN: At varying ages during — with regard to the invoices and the promissory notes, at various times when she was in the city. With regard to the releases, she signed releases when she was in the organization. And then, afterwards, she was taken — after she escaped from the City of Clearwater, as the affidavit will show — and if need be, she can be called as a witness, but she does have a lawsuit against the Church, and I have made an effort to discriminate between individuals who have a lawsuit and those who don't, but she could be called as a witness. And as her — some of her documents show, she was — and her affidavit will show to the Commission, after she literally escaped from the Fort Harrison RPF, she went home to her — the City of Las Vegas. And approximately two or three weeks later, two Guardian's Office operatives arrived in the City of Las Vegas and took her to Los Angeles, locked her in a room, and put her on the cans. And after that, she was made to sign many documents which are here, which I won't read at this particular time but I'll read in connection with her affidavit, whereby she was informed that she owed the organization some sixty thousand dollars. And this is after she was out of the organization. And she was sent a freeloader's debt of $63,000.00 which she was told she had to pay and — MR. LeCHER: What I'm getting at: Would she sign something that she believed to be legal? Was she a minor; was she under age? MR. FLYNN: That's correct. MR. LeCHER: She was what, sixteen years old? MR. FLYNN: That's correct. She was signing — she signed many documents at various points in time from the age of thirteen to the age of seventeen. MR. LeCHER: Can a thirteen to a seventeen year old sign something to pay eighty, ninety thousand dollars? MR. FLYNN: Of course not. Counsel, a question that I have here: This is an administrative or a legislative hearing, and some of the rules of justice do not prevail here on hearsay and what have you. But if you had to introduce all of this into evidence, you said that it would be voluminous. What are you talking about in size? MR. FLYNN: Well, for instance, if we — when Mr. Walters was on the witness stand — he is aware of most policies within the Church — and to go into every policy, his testimony could have taken a week in itself because of the scope of his knowledge. And we could have put into evidence, probably, fifteen or twenty different volumes of some six hundred or seven hundred pages each, together with, probably, a thousand documents of Guardian's Office activities, which would begin to display the scope of the operation. Since we don't have those — that amount of time — and we're laboring under financial constraints — what I've endeavored to do is to present some people at different levels. And you will be hearing from some Guardian's Office operatives who, actually, have committed burglaries. You have just heard from an individual who was simply a young boy who came into the organization and worked at a very low level here at the Fort Harrison, and you heard it from his point of view. And you've heard Mr. Walters' experiences from his point of view. So, in order to give you a proper perspective — we could be here for two months. And in my own judgment, having worked with the subject for three years, you would begin to realize the scope of the problem, in my own judgment. In any event, the next witness is Rosie Pace. MR. LeCHER: Miss Pace. Will you bring in Miss Pace, please. Commissioners, again I ask you to — and I remind myself, too — that we should be to the point and brief because we do have thirteen or fourteen witnesses to go. And I think we have a day and-a-half to do it in. MR. BERFIELD: Mayor, while she's coming in: Mr. Flynn, these volumes are available for our inspection, are they not? MR. FLYNN: Absolutely. And if the Commission desires, I will have them introduced into evidence at the close of the proceedings for your perusal. MR. SHOEMAKER: Commissioner Berfield, also, some of the — many of the documents which Mr. Flynn is referring to were, in fact, submitted as appendices to his initial report. The problem with that was that the appendices were about this high — MR. BERFIELD: I realize that. MR. SHOEMAKER: — in addition to the report, so we didn't distribute them. Certainly, they are available in the public library and they're also available down at the City Clerk's Office for anyone who wants to see them. MR. FLYNN: Correct. On that point, I would like to simply suggest, that just to review Guardian's Office documents involving operations in the City of Clearwater, there's a volume about yea thick of probably a thousand pages. On Guardian's Office operations nationwide, it's probably five to ten thousand pages thick that are either currently on record or could be produced. And that is not even getting into issues of financial issues, training issues, legal issues, such as the releases and the waivers I put into evidence. MR. CALDERBANK: If it pleased the Commission, at the end of the hearing process, then, I would like to have as many of these documents entered in, in addition to the documents that he is entering in throughout — or during the testimony to substantiate them. I'd like as much information as possible from both sides. MR. LeCHER: All right. Let's get with Miss Pace. Miss Rosie Pace. I have to ask you the five — before I do that, I must ask you to get sworn in, please. Is the Clerk there, Mrs. Lamkin? ROSIE PACE, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows: MR. LeCHER: Okay. Miss Pace, we're going to ask you the five basic questions, then, we'll get on to have you discuss your role. The first question: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily? MS. PACE: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than the expenses for coming to Clearwater? MS. PACE: No. MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology? MS. PACE: No. |