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Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 234 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 3 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 4 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 5 6 Plaintiff, 7 vs. VOLUME 3 8 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 9 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 10 Defendants. 11 _______________________________________/ 12 13 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 14 DATE: May 6 , 2002. Afternoon Session. 15 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 16 St. Petersburg, Florida. 17 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 18 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 19 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 20 21 22 23 24 25
235 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25
236 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
237 1 THE COURT: Okay. Let's do a few little 2 preliminary things here. 3 In the event we don't finish tomorrow, I have 4 two trial weeks coming up, next week and the week 5 after. Both of those weeks I'm available five days 6 a week. I expect to get this thing done. 7 So -- yes? 8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we have, of course, 9 scheduled a slew of expert depositions. 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 MR. DANDAR: One of them is tomorrow, Joyce T. 12 Eastridge, the defendant's economist. 13 THE COURT: Tomorrow? 14 MR. DANDAR: Tomorrow. My brother can cover 15 that deposition. They have a dozen lawyers over 16 there and they canceled it on their own because of 17 this hearing. And I would request that you order 18 one of them to appear for that deposition so there 19 is no delay in preparing for trial. 20 THE COURT: Why can't one of you-all cover that 21 deposition? 22 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, for a factual 23 record, we received a notice from Mr. Dandar last 24 week that tomorrow would be taken up with this 25 hearing. He actually noticed this particular
238 1 hearing. When we got that, I wrote him a letter 2 immediately saying that, in light of that, we were 3 assuming that deposition was not going forward. And 4 that witness now is not -- she's not available. 5 THE COURT: Why not? 6 MR. HERTZBERG: She's on call, I believe, in a 7 case in West Palm Beach. And, you know, we never 8 got a response from that letter. I sent that letter 9 to Mr. Dandar immediately last week when he said 10 that tomorrow would be taken up with this hearing. 11 And so far as I know, although I have not been back 12 in my office in New York since then, I have no word 13 that any kind of response to my letter, which was 14 faxed -- 15 THE COURT: Call that witness and see if he's 16 available. If he's just on call, he ought to be 17 available, especially if that trial doesn't -- he 18 has somebody that can cover it, and you have a slew 19 of lawyers to cover it. I only need one here and 20 let's get it done. 21 MR. HERTZBERG: To be candid with you, at this 22 point now we have not had any preparation with that 23 witness. 24 THE COURT: Well, take a day and prepare, 25 whatever.
239 1 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I invited 2 Mr. Dandar to give me alternative dates. We'll 3 reschedule it as soon as we can, but we are -- we 4 are not going to be ready to go forward tomorrow. 5 And I sent him a very precise letter on this exact 6 topic. And never got a response. So we just 7 assumed it was off. 8 THE COURT: Who accepted that -- who had set 9 the deposition? 10 MR. DANDAR: Pardon me? 11 THE COURT: Who accepted that -- who had set 12 that deposition? 13 MR. DANDAR: I did. We sent it with a big 14 conference with Judge Beach. 15 THE COURT: And you unilaterally canceled it. 16 MR. HERTZBERG: He did by sending the notice 17 out. He sent us a notice saying there would be a 18 hearing that would take up last Thursday, Friday, 19 today and tomorrow. And I sent him a letter. I 20 wish I had a copy with me; I don't believe I do. 21 But I sent him a letter saying, "In light of your 22 notice, we assume we'll be rescheduling this in the 23 future. In fact, that we'll be rescheduling it. 24 Would you please notify me what days you are 25 available so I can reschedule it with you."
240 1 In the interim, frankly, I told the witness 2 that we had a hearing that was going to supersede 3 her deposition, that I have not heard back from 4 Mr. Dandar, and she sent me a notice saying that she 5 was on call for this case in West Palm Beach. 6 THE COURT: Counselor, call her. See if she's 7 available tomorrow. If she's available tomorrow, 8 one of you -- surely when the only possible issue 9 here is net accumulations to an aunt who ought to be 10 able to recover, it ought to take a two pages to get 11 it done. If she's on call, go where she is, do what 12 is necessary, try to get it done. There is no 13 reason to delay that. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: Okay. 15 THE COURT: Okay? Now, if the witness can't be 16 available because she's been called off, she made 17 other plans, there is not much we can do about that. 18 MR. HERTZBERG: Right. 19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, on a similar note, I 20 sent a letter to Mr. Lirot and Mr. Dandar today. 21 The deposition -- based on what you just said, the 22 deposition that we had scheduled for Monday, 23 May 13th, with Dr. Bernard Knight, the fellow from 24 Wales, he's broken his leg in several places and 25 they inserted a plate and pins in his ankle and he
241 1 notified us he -- we were flying him over to 2 accommodate counsel, and he can't come on Monday. 3 So we would have, I assume, Monday available if the 4 Court wanted to use Monday. 5 THE COURT: I have two weeks. I plan to go 6 starting that Monday until we're done. You all have 7 a slew of lawyers. You make do. You know, there 8 are two of you-all, Mr. Dandar, you don't need to 9 sit here. You can be out doing whatever you have to 10 do. Mr. Lirot can handle this hearing. Whatever 11 you have scheduled, you do it. I'm just telling you 12 come that Monday I have two weeks, ten days, and I 13 plan to finish this hearing. 14 MR. FUGATE: I understand what you said now. I 15 was just going to say that is available, but we'll 16 be here. 17 MR. WEINBERG: The Monday you are talking about 18 is the 13th? Is that the Monday? 19 THE COURT: Yes, the 13th. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 21 THE COURT: You know, frankly, if -- let me 22 make sure I'm going to be available all those two 23 weeks. I am. So if you all have something 24 scheduled one of those days, you know -- I mean, if 25 it is something you all need to be at, you have a
242 1 deposition scheduled, because I just learned that we 2 have a slew of senior judge coverage. So, quite 3 frankly, if it weren't that I have a hearing 4 tomorrow and the next that I just have to cover, 5 because it is kind of one of those continued 6 hearings where I have already done two or three days 7 of it, we'll keep going after tomorrow. 8 MR. DANDAR: We actually had a hearing set at 9 1:30 today to strike witnesses they want to depose. 10 That would also free up more time during this two 11 trial weeks. One is Tom Haverty, who you saw 12 sitting here last week. He's one of my 13 investigators and consultants. They want to take 14 his deposition. He's protected under work product. 15 THE COURT: Why do you want to take his 16 deposition? At least -- maybe you might want to 17 take it at a later proceedings, but why in the 18 wrongful death? He's an investigator or something 19 working with Mr. Dandar. I'm not going to allow 20 that. 21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, we were prepared to 22 argue that, but I was going to tell you, Mr. Haverty 23 was the one that organized some of the experiments. 24 He did the experiment with respect to the Jeep 25 crash. He bought the Jeep, he had the Jeep. There
243 1 are issues about the embolism and the bruise to her 2 knee. And Mr. Haverty was the one specifically 3 knowledgeable about that, worked with the accident 4 reconstruction man, and apparently actually owns 5 this Jeep, too. He also is the one that set up this 6 other experiment, which may be moot now. 7 THE COURT: Which one is that? 8 MR. MOXON: The bugs. Cockroaches. 9 THE COURT: Oh, I think that is moot. 10 MR. MOXON: Yes, he also has been, for quite 11 some time, has been taking photographs and doing 12 whatnot. He has been taking photographs of counsel 13 and going to some places where the depositions were 14 and -- and outside surreptitiously taking 15 photographs. That might be an issue. 16 THE COURT: What -- how might that be an issue 17 for deposition? It might be an issue for the Court, 18 but it is hardly an issue to take a lawyer's 19 consultant's or a lawyer's investigator's 20 deposition. 21 MR. MOXON: What might be left is the accident 22 reconstruction -- 23 THE COURT: I don't think I'll allow a lawyer's 24 investigator to be deposed until you have something 25 you'll allow him to be called for.
244 1 MR. MOXON: We'll take it up then. We can hold 2 in abeyance. We already indicated we were not going 3 to take his deposition until this matter was -- 4 THE COURT: I'm telling you now, unless you can 5 come into court and show me some cause other than 6 just he might have -- I mean, all investigators have 7 some knowledge about certain things. You just don't 8 get to take their deposition. 9 So his deposition is out, unless you can show 10 me something really good as to why it should be 11 taken. 12 MR. MOXON: Fair enough. 13 THE COURT: Talk to their accident 14 reconstructionist or some piece of the puzzle that 15 he just simply can't fill in, I imagine we can get 16 it to you in some other fashion, like an affidavit 17 or something. 18 You don't depose lawyers' investigators, 19 lawyers' secretaries, lawyers and those type of 20 people. That isn't done, should not be done, and 21 it's not going to be done unless there is some super 22 reason. I haven't heard one. 23 MR. FUGATE: At a break we can get together and 24 determine what is on everyone's calendar and get it 25 resolved so we can abide by your ruling.
245 1 THE COURT: Let's just assume we'll start on 2 Monday, and unless I hear something you have set, 3 we'll just go until we are done. 4 MR. DANDAR: The other deposition they 5 scheduled two days in Dallas, Texas. 6 THE COURT: The lady that will work as far as 7 this -- if this lady is unavailable because you have 8 been called off, I hope it doesn't take ten days. 9 MR. DANDAR: I hope not. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. DANDAR: But the other thing they 12 scheduled, which we noticed for today, is that they 13 want to take the half brother and sister of Lisa 14 McPherson from her father's first marriage who have 15 not seen Lisa McPherson since she was a baby. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, file motion to exclude 17 that. 18 MR. DANDAR: I did. 19 THE COURT: Then I'll hear it, and unless they 20 have some awfully good reason, that won't be 21 allowed. 22 MR. DANDAR: It was set for 1:30. I just 23 wanted to let you know that. 24 THE COURT: Today? 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
246 1 THE COURT: Let's hear it. 2 MR. MOXON: I didn't see any such notice. We 3 have not subpoenaed them. We have not asked for 4 out-of-state -- we haven't received his motion, 5 either. 6 MR. DANDAR: I didn't file the motion. 7 THE COURT: Then in that case, we can't hear 8 it. 9 MR. DANDAR: I'll set it for Monday. 10 THE COURT: You can set it for next week if you 11 want. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: We need to get this thing down to 14 where, if it's going to be tried, depositions are 15 being taken of people who know something about the 16 case. It doesn't sound like those folks would. 17 I also want to inform you that if this case 18 goes on to trial, that we had kind of scheduled this 19 tentatively for the June trial docket which would 20 have been starting on the second week. I know we 21 also talked kind of tentatively about using that for 22 motions and pretrial matters and stuff like that. 23 And that is still fine with me. 24 I thought I should tell you that the next week, 25 I think that is the week -- yes, the next week, I
247 1 have to be in Tallahassee to address the Supreme 2 Court on the 18th. And that requires me to go to 3 Tallahassee the night before. Which means that kind 4 of messes up my day. So I'm going to be sort of 5 tentatively unavailable the 17th and 18th. I have 6 got a meeting in Naples -- I don't remember where it 7 is, wherever the circuit judges conference is -- 8 Naples, all day the 21st of that week. And I'm 9 going to be on a panel on the 24th of that week. I 10 am moving on the 28th of that week. 11 So I'm kind of giving you just an idea that 12 you'll have -- you all kind of blocked for two to 13 four months for this, so what I'm telling you, we're 14 going to have time in June. I won't get started 15 with the jury until we can get started and go, 16 unless we just want to bring in 50 at a time and 17 take the days that we've got and do it kind of 18 piecemeal. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would ask we not do 20 anything on the 17th at all, because as I indicated, 21 my daughter will get married on the 15th, which is a 22 Saturday. 23 THE COURT: We'll keep the 17th open. We have 24 the 17th open, the 18th open, the 21st -- well, 25 open -- closed, unavailable, you know, 21st is
248 1 closed, 24th is closed. 2 MR. FUGATE: The 28th is the Friday? 3 THE COURT: The 28th is closed. And really 4 there is -- 5 MR. DANDAR: Is this all in June? 6 THE COURT: All in June. So our hope of 7 getting this started in June -- everything started 8 falling into this June mess. 9 So I think what we'll do is say this. I think 10 we'll kind of assume that we have got June in 11 between motions that we'll still have, things that 12 are still going on, maybe depositions that -- that 13 you haven't had a chance to take. We'll have days 14 where we can fit things in, but we won't plan on 15 actually starting the trial in June. Just got too 16 many odds and ends. 17 So if this case ends up in trial, maybe we can 18 start July. I bet you -- I don't know if we have 19 the 5th off. Is the 5th a court holiday? Does 20 anybody know? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know what day of the week 22 the 4th is? 23 THE COURT: The 4th is a Thursday. A lot of 24 times the 5th becomes a court holiday. That is all 25 right. It might take us a good four or five days to
249 1 get a jury. So maybe when we have our case 2 management conference we can settle this down a 3 little bit and see what days we have and what have 4 you. 5 But as I'm looking at this and as I'm hearing 6 this, it may be very hard for us to get much done. 7 It's the week of the 10th -- see, that is a good 8 week for me, and it's probably a good week for 9 you-all, but the problem is, I said we pretty much 10 would take that week and finish up anything we still 11 have hanging on. 12 So just be aware that the month of June is 13 going to be fairly flexible, and you all will have 14 some time to work on your case. Unless you get 15 bogged down taking depositions up until the last 16 minute, you can kind of spend some of that time 17 preparing your case. 18 MR. WEINBERG: If you recall, the beginning of 19 June I would be gone to my son's graduation from 20 college up in Massachusetts, but that will be okay, 21 basically, what you just said. 22 THE COURT: Yes, that will work. So I'm just 23 kind of advising you of all those little problems. 24 I wrote down a couple of things -- so I want to 25 start next week -- I think I'll go ahead and do my
250 1 regular calendar. We'll just go this afternoon, all 2 day tomorrow, see where we end up. If we can finish 3 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, that is the end of your 4 case, I think you said. 5 MR. FUGATE: We've got some documents. But 6 other than that, that will be the live witness 7 testimony. 8 THE COURT: We can at least finish that part of 9 it. 10 MR. DANDAR: And the defense witnesses, 11 unfortunately, after tomorrow, are gone and will not 12 be available again until the 15th. 13 THE COURT: Where are they gone? 14 MR. DANDAR: Out of state. Jessie Prince will 15 be gone Wednesday to go to California on the 16 Wollersheim Scientology case, and Peter Alexander is 17 on the road after tomorrow. Those are two key 18 witnesses. And they will not be back until the 15th 19 or after the 15th. 20 THE COURT: Well, as I said, I have the week of 21 the 10th and the week of the 17th. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 THE COURT: We have a lot of senior judge days 24 left all, of which have to be used by July, so I'm 25 in a real good position of getting all I want.
251 1 I told you all that -- this is only to correct 2 the record -- that I had never held but one 3 defendant in contempt, and that is true. But I did 4 hold the St. Petersburg Times in contempt once. A 5 reporter from the Times. Probably the only judge to 6 ever successfully hold the St. Pete Times in 7 contempt. It was affirmed on appeal, and they 8 withdrew their cert position for the Florida Supreme 9 Court. It is not listed as the St. Pete Times. I 10 didn't make the case against them. I made it 11 against the reporter. But I had every Times editor 12 up to the top here for the hearing. You'll -- I 13 didn't put her in jail; I suspended her sentence and 14 fined her. 15 But I forgot about that, so I actually had two 16 contempt cases that had to do with -- she had agreed 17 with me not to publish something and the very next 18 day it was in a big story and I couldn't allow that 19 to happen. 20 I want to know from Ms. Brooks' attorney, you 21 are here, as I indicated at some point in time in 22 this hearing, it's very difficult for the Court to 23 hear witnesses admit they have committed perjury. 24 And I'm involved in all kinds of hearings. Because 25 of that, and not consider orders to show cause,
252 1 should I file an order to show cause, I need to know 2 whether you will accept service for your client. 3 MR. McGOWAN: I shall, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, will you accept service 5 from your client? 6 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, we will. 7 THE COURT: I can only go that far now because 8 they are the only two that admitted to me committing 9 perjury. If we have more than that that I decided 10 have, we'll go from there. 11 So as I said, I don't have the time right now 12 to worry with it, but if that time comes, I'll just 13 mail it to you and you'll accept service if that is 14 okay, rather than -- 15 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 16 THE COURT: I got to thinking about it, that is 17 what I did for the Times. I called and had them -- 18 said, "Would you like me to mail this to you, or 19 just hand it to you." He said yes, he would accept 20 service. 21 Now, the last thing I want to do, I want to get 22 this hearing finished so you-all know whether you 23 have a trial or not, who will try the case, so I can 24 make arrangements to get this thing done. And I 25 think that would be good for all of the lawyers, and
253 1 I have already told you that. 2 So with that in mind, Ms. Brooks is on the 3 stand. And Mr. Lirot -- 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, may it please the 5 Court -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 7 MR. McGOWAN: Request to produce had been 8 furnished on Ms. Brooks, and the Court instructed us 9 to comply with it as of today, which we've done, and 10 I can file the response to the Court. 11 I wanted to advise the Court that we have 12 complied, and probably overcomplied, as far as 13 documents -- we attached a lawsuit which is not 14 exactly responsive, but in an -- 15 THE COURT: Is that the notice to produce filed 16 in the other case? 17 MR. McGOWAN: It was filed in this case -- 18 THE COURT: The only notice to produce I saw 19 was one filed by the plaintiffs in this case, and I 20 thought it was -- 21 MR. McGOWAN: It could be in the other case. 22 It is Church versus Dell Liebreich, you are right. 23 And it was sought -- it sought production of various 24 confidentiality agreements, any evidence of 25 blackmail or extortion by the Church.
254 1 THE COURT: Yes, and I think they meant for it 2 to be filed here, but I think they styled it in the 3 other case. So I don't have a problem if you want 4 to file your original here since this was the day of 5 return and you are here and then send a copy up 6 there. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. That is what we've done. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. McGOWAN: Just so the Court knows, two of 10 the items that were requested -- 11 THE COURT: First of all, is that all right 12 with you-all? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes, it is. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. McGOWAN: One of the items requested was 16 Stacy Brooks' personal income tax returns for the 17 past five years. As a practical matter, they are in 18 Atlanta where she lives. 19 As you know, she was here Friday, and it's a 20 30-day request, so she couldn't get them. 21 We also objected to the production of those. 22 We don't know what -- whether they calculate or not 23 calculate it will lead to discovery of admissible 24 evidence, at least for purpose of this hearing, and 25 also we think it is an invasion of privacy,
255 1 burdensome and oppressive. 2 In terms of the tax returns of the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust, likewise there was one filed for 4 one year, and there was another that would be due 5 for 2001 that has not been even prepared, so it 6 doesn't exist. That return is in Atlanta -- 7 THE COURT: We can't hear that all. Just go 8 ahead and file what you have. 9 MR. McGOWAN: I just wanted to tell you what we 10 didn't comply with and what we objected to. 11 THE COURT: Did you make a copy for me, by any 12 chance? 13 MR. McGOWAN: This is the original. I -- 14 THE COURT: Counsel, somebody needs to make a 15 copy for me. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 17 THE COURT: Since it has to do directly with 18 this hearing. Okay? 19 Madam clerk, you want to take this? Would you 20 rather have it since it is styled in that case filed 21 up there? It might be better thing to do, file it 22 up there and copy here? 23 MR. DANDAR: Either way. 24 THE COURT: Madam clerk, we can get it stamped 25 in today so it shows whatever is complied with is
256 1 complied with as of today and then make a copy for 2 this case. 3 THE CLERK: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Send the original up to Clearwater, 5 but file it today. And while you are making the 6 copy for here, maybe you can make me an extra copy. 7 THE CLERK: I will. 8 THE COURT: Will you do that? 9 THE CLERK: Yes, I will. 10 THE COURT: And get it to me by tomorrow? 11 THE CLERK: Yes. 12 MR. McGOWAN: The other thing is housekeeping. 13 There was a scrivener's error in Ms. Brooks' 14 affidavit. Basically Paragraph 18, it could have 15 been misread, it had payments to two individuals. 16 She just clarified the meaning of the sentence. 17 It's not very substantive, but I wanted to file that 18 with the Court while she was on the stand. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. FUGATE: One housekeeping matter -- 21 THE COURT: Wait a minute, let's see if he's 22 done. 23 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. 24 THE COURT: If he's done, we'll go on to the 25 next person with housekeeping matters.
257 1 MR. McGOWAN: That is all I have. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. FUGATE: I understand after I left that you 4 were handed up a copy of all of Mr. Minton's 5 depositions. I have a copy which I'll hand up to 6 the Court and tell the Court and counsel they are 7 all of Dell Liebreich's depositions, in case the 8 Court needed those. 9 THE COURT: I may have hers. I'm not sure. 10 MR. FUGATE: If you don't, I'll leave this up 11 here, if I can approach. 12 THE COURT: That is good. I don't know if that 13 contained all of Mr. Minton's depositions. It 14 contained all of the ones up through an April 8 15 date, but I don't know if he's been deposed after 16 that, because it seemed there was one -- supposed to 17 be one deposition where he was to purge himself of 18 this -- of this perjury and it was not in there. 19 MR. FUGATE: I think that was the hearing -- 20 the sentencing hearing on Friday. 21 THE COURT: So there was no deposition before 22 the hearing? 23 MR. DANDAR: There was -- 24 MR. FUGATE: There was -- 25 MR. DANDAR: There is a deposition on April 8
258 1 in Wally Pope's office of Mr. Minton. They didn't 2 finish, and they were supposed to continue that on 3 April 9 in the afternoon after the hearing. There 4 was a hearing before Judge Baird to purge Mr. Minton 5 of his contempt. My brother showed up at Wally 6 Pope's office at one o'clock or so for the 7 deposition, and Wally Pope told him it was canceled. 8 So we never got the chance to cross-examine 9 Mr. Minton before the Judge Baird hearing went 10 forward on disqualification. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then, I do have that 12 deposition. And that is the last -- it was not 13 really very much related to this case. 14 MR. DANDAR: Nothing at all. 15 THE COURT: LMT -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Nothing at all. 17 MR. FUGATE: I stand corrected. You have that 18 one, and then the other testimony I think is the 19 9th, which is the sentencing before Judge Baird. 20 THE COURT: I have all that. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Any other housekeeping 23 matters? No? Okay. Let me look through my notes 24 here. And you may inquire. 25 MR. LIROT: Thank you, judge. May it please
259 1 the Court, counsel. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm Luke Lirot. I want to ask you 5 some questions about some of your earlier testimony and some 6 of the affidavits that you filed in this case. 7 And I would like to start off by asking you about 8 the meetings that you testified to relative to trying to 9 settle -- reach global settlement with the Church of 10 Scientology. When did you first consider doing that? 11 A Oh, I believe the subject first came up during a 12 series of conversations that I had with Mr. Howie, perhaps 13 in January -- probably that began in January. 14 Q January of 2002? 15 A Yes. 16 Q This year? 17 A Yes. I think so. 18 Q All right. And prior to that you didn't have any 19 interest in trying to reach any global settlement on any of 20 these issues involving the Church of Scientology? 21 A Mmm, I believe it was in January when -- when I 22 spoke to Mr. Howie as I began to -- 23 Q Okay. Was Mr. -- 24 THE COURT: Wait a minute, she may not have 25 been done. She said, "When I began to," and --
260 1 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Had you finished? 3 THE WITNESS: I had. I think I'm taking too 4 long, your Honor. But when I began to think that 5 that might be a resolution of this situation. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q All right. Was Mr. Howie your counsel at that 9 point? 10 A No. He wasn't. He was Mr. Minton's counsel. 11 Q Okay. Why would you be getting in touch with 12 Mr. Howie? 13 A Well, at that time, Mr. Minton -- I think I 14 testified on Friday, Mr. Minton was very distraught and very 15 upset and depressed about the situation that he found 16 himself in. And he was not being very communicative with 17 anyone, including his own attorney. And I was very 18 concerned about -- about him. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And so I was speaking to Mr. Howie about my 21 concerns. 22 Q How would you know all this about Mr. Minton's 23 distraught nature and I guess what would clearly appear to 24 be some intimate knowledge about his personal feelings? 25 A Well, I live with him.
261 1 Q Okay. And what is that living arrangement? 2 A Mmm, well, for the most part, I'm at his house in 3 New Hampshire, and we also now have a house in Atlanta. But 4 we haven't spent very much time there. So the house had to 5 have some work done on it in Atlanta. So for the most part, 6 we live in New Hampshire. 7 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to get at, 8 nobody is trying to be embarrassing here, but are 9 you-all living together in some sort of a friendship 10 relationship? Or is it more than that? 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I love him and we 12 live together in a relationship of two people who 13 love each other. 14 THE COURT: Okay. So it's an intimate 15 relationship, when you talk about those type of 16 things? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q How did that relationship evolve? When did you 20 first meet Mr. Minton? 21 A In September of 1997. My husband at the time, 22 Vaughn Young, made a posting on the Internet in which he 23 described a situation that we were in in which Scientology 24 was basically harassing us in ways that was causing us to 25 feel that we were going to need to stop doing any
262 1 anti-Scientology work. 2 Q What were they doing to you? 3 A Oh, they -- well, at the time, I had a cat 4 sanctuary, or at least the beginnings of a cat sanctuary. 5 And I was -- and it sort of had grown more than I had meant 6 for -- not more than I meant for it to, but more than I 7 planned. So I had more animals in this house that we were 8 renting than the residential regulations allowed. 9 And it was my belief, and my husband's belief, 10 that the Scientology was responsible for a number of 11 anonymous phone calls being made to animal control, and then 12 after that calls that were being made to the zoning 13 department. Because the animal control calls -- you know, 14 animal control would come out every day because they had 15 these complaints. And the house was really clean and -- and 16 it was okay. So then phone calls were made to the zoning 17 department. And, you know, we were violating the zoning 18 regulations. 19 So our landlord -- 20 THE COURT: This is a lot more than I need to 21 know about this. 22 MR. LIROT: I think you are right, your Honor. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q I appreciate your thorough nature -- 25 THE COURT: To say nothing for the fact I read
263 1 it in Mr. Minton's deposition so I already knew 2 about it. 3 MR. LIROT: Well, I didn't know about it, 4 Judge. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q In any event, this cat sanctuary, was this just 7 something you did as a hobby or did you get paid for that 8 or -- 9 A Mmm, it was something that I really cared deeply 10 about. In fact, I'm still involved in that kind of work 11 with animals. And -- 12 Q My question was, were you getting any money for 13 it? Or was this just -- I mean, did you sell any of the 14 cats? 15 A Well, it wasn't a situation where the cats would 16 be sold. It was -- well, I guess it is semantics, but when 17 a cat would be adopted -- because what we would do would be 18 rescue a cat and find a good home for it. And so -- 19 Q Did you get any money -- 20 A Yes. 21 Q -- at all? 22 A So -- 23 Q You were making money? 24 A So when a person would adopt a cat, they would pay 25 a fee for the cat.
264 1 Q Okay. Well, I think in your affidavit you said 2 that during that period of time your sole source of income 3 was drafting what was referred to, I guess, as 4 anti-Scientology affidavits. 5 A I believe I said it was my primary source of 6 income. 7 Q You didn't say it was your sole source of income? 8 A Well, let me check. 9 Q It's all right. The affidavit will speak for 10 itself. And I'm not trying to pick on you about -- you 11 know, I'm sure whatever you made from selling a cat here and 12 there is probably not an extensive amount of money. I'm 13 just trying to check the facts. 14 A I'm not seeing it right now, but I believe I said 15 primary. 16 Q All right. Now, let me backtrack a little bit. 17 So in 1997, you had an opportunity -- or I guess you said 18 your husband at that time, Mr. Young, had posted something 19 on the Internet that apparently Mr. Minton responded to. 20 What was that? 21 A Yes, it was a very lengthy posting in which he 22 described our circumstance. And basically it was meant as 23 an explanation for people as to why we were going to go -- 24 become inactive in our anti-Scientology work. 25 Q Why you were going to become inactive?
265 1 A Why we were going to become inactive. Yes. 2 Q So as I understand it then, there was some 3 announcement that you and Mr. Young, who had been 4 Scientologists for I think what you testified to as 15 years 5 for you, 20 years for him? 6 A 15 years. 7 Q You both left Scientology? 8 A In 1989. 9 Q I think that clearly there was some discontent 10 after you -- 11 A We were very disgusted, yes. 12 Q Why? 13 A Mmm, we both had some really, really bad 14 experiences during the time we were in Scientology. 15 Q Okay. Now, I mean, I guess my question would be, 16 you had bad experiences, then your testimony was that 17 lawyers would track you down and get you to sign these 18 affidavits, or -- 19 A No. That wasn't my testimony. 20 Q Well, you prepared a number of affidavits. 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q How many do you think you prepared? 23 A Oh, probably, I would estimate, as many as 10. 24 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. I'm up 25 here trying to listen, but I'm getting frustrated.
266 1 I can't seem to put my hand on Ms. Brooks' main 2 affidavit. I have one here that is four pages, but 3 that was the first one. 4 Then we had -- 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think it is Exhibit 72, if 6 I'm not mistaken, of the omnibus motion. 7 THE COURT: All right. But I had another copy 8 of it, too. 9 THE WITNESS: Do you want to borrow mine, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: No. I'll find it. All right. I 12 got it. Go on ahead. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Let me bring you back to 2002, Ms. Brooks. I'll 16 ask you some questions about the past later. 17 2002, apparently Mr. Minton is distraught. You 18 get a hold of Mr. Howie. Didn't Mr. Minton have Mr. Merrett 19 as counsel at that point in time, John Merrett? 20 A In January of 2002? I believe not. If he hadn't 21 formally discharged him as counsel, he was not considering 22 him to be counsel at that time, as I recall. 23 Q All right. So January 2002, you call Mr. Howie, I 24 guess on behalf of Mr. Minton. And at that point in time, 25 you indicated you wanted to reach some global settlement
267 1 with Scientology? 2 A Mmm, I don't believe that that is how the 3 conversation went. But we did -- Mr. Howie actually brought 4 up the possibility of settlement in the breach of contract 5 case. And when he brought that possibility up, I said to 6 him, "I know Scientology won't settle just one case with 7 Mr. Minton. If -- if you -- Mmm, if you approach them to 8 settle just one case, I guarantee you that they will come 9 back and say they want a global settlement." 10 Then Mr. Howie asked me to explain to him what 11 that meant. And I told him what I thought it meant. 12 Q Okay. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Howie really hadn't been 14 involved in this case up until then. Is that right? 15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I don't believe so. I think 16 he had been just on the breach case at that point. 17 But -- I don't know if there was anything going on 18 in regard to Mr. Minton in the case at that time. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, here is a copy if 20 you want. 21 THE COURT: Thanks. I finally got to it, 22 but -- is that an extra one? I'll take it. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is an extra one. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. The reason I was 25 looking for mine, I read it and I made some notes on
268 1 it, but, you know, I'll just have to make new ones. 2 Go ahead. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Do you know how it was Mr. Minton came to retain 5 Mr. Howie as his counsel? 6 A Oh, yes. 7 Q Was he referred by Mr. Dandar? Did Mr. Dandar 8 help him find Mr. Howie? 9 A No. 10 Q Mr. Dandar had nothing to do with telling 11 Mr. Minton that Mr. Howie was a good attorney and that he 12 was available to serve as counsel? 13 A No. 14 Q Well, how did Mr. Minton find Mr. Howie? 15 A Mr. Minton had a criminal trial maybe in 2000. 16 And he retained Denis DeVlaming as his criminal counsel. 17 And Mr. Howie was an attorney who worked with Mr. DeVlaming 18 on a regular basis. And Mr. DeVlaming brought Mr. Howie in 19 on that case. 20 And then Mr. Howie -- well, Mr. Minton at first 21 had Mr. DeVlaming representing him in another case that was 22 before Judge Penick regarding an injunction. And then 23 Mr. DeVlaming felt that it was going on -- going into areas 24 that really weren't his area of expertise. And so Mr. Howie 25 ended up becoming Mr. Minton's counsel in that case.
269 1 Q All right. Do you know Dr. Garko? Do you know 2 who he is? 3 A Yes. 4 Q All right. I don't know if the Court knows, but 5 can you tell the Court who Dr. Garko is? 6 A Dr. Garko is Mr. Dandar's trial consultant. 7 Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Dandar and Mr. -- 8 and Dr. Garko were trying to get Attorney DeVlaming to 9 represent Mr. Minton at that time? 10 A Are you saying -- 11 Q Prior to -- prior to Mr. Minton retaining 12 Mr. Howie? 13 A That Mr. Dandar helped Mr. Minton find 14 Mr. DeVlaming? 15 Q No, that he was trying to get Mr. DeVlaming to 16 represent him at that point in time? 17 A You mean for his criminal trial? 18 Q For any proceedings in early January of -- excuse 19 me, January of 2002? 20 A 2002? 21 Q January -- let me just back up a little, ma'am. 22 You had testified that Mr. Howie had gone, met 23 with Mr. Minton, and at that point there was consideration 24 for working out a settlement with the Church of Scientology. 25 My question was --
270 1 A That is not what I testified to. 2 Q I'm sorry? 3 A That is not what I testified to. 4 Q My question was, how did Mr. Minton end up with 5 Mr. Howie? And I'm just asking if you remember that -- 6 A I'm telling you. 7 Q I understand, but do you recall Mr. Dandar trying 8 to get Denis DeVlaming to assist as Mr. -- Mr. Minton in the 9 breach case prior to retaining Mr. Howie? 10 A I don't know if it was in the breach case, but I 11 know Mr. Dandar, when he was in New Hampshire, at the end of 12 February, said -- offered to go and see Mr. DeVlaming and 13 see if he would come in as -- as another counsel for 14 Mr. Minton. 15 Q So Mr. Minton already had Mr. Howie as counsel at 16 that point in time? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did Mr. Howie come up to New Hampshire to discuss 19 the possibility -- 20 A No. 21 Q -- of settlement? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you come down here or communicate with him 24 over the phone? 25 A It was over the phone, as I recall. I don't
271 1 believe we had a meeting with him in person. 2 Q All right. So as I understand it, Mr. Minton 3 retained Mr. Howie to try to settle the breach case as we're 4 referring to it -- 5 A Well, he already had Mr. Howie as his attorney. 6 Q Okay. But in early January of 2002, Mr. Minton 7 decided that he would talk to Mr. Howie and they were going 8 to try to work out a settlement of the breach case. Is that 9 correct? 10 A Yes. That is correct. 11 Q All right. And after that, apparently you 12 interjected some concern that it would be useless to settle 13 that case because Scientology wouldn't give you the benefit 14 of any -- any resolution of that case unless there were 15 other cases resolved. Is that correct? 16 A That is not correct. 17 Q All right. Correct me. 18 A All right. 19 Q Tell me what really happened. 20 A What really happened is what I just said. Which 21 was that Mr. Howie and I had conversations in which 22 Mr. Howie suggested that because the costs involved in the 23 breach case were so low, that it would probably be a fairly 24 simple matter for him to broach the Scientology attorneys 25 with an offer of settlement on Mr. Minton's behalf.
272 1 And I said, "Well, they probably won't be willing 2 to do that, but I -- I want to talk to Mr. Minton and see if 3 he will authorize you to make that approach." 4 So then I talked with Mr. Minton and told him what 5 Mr. Howie had said and asked him if he would authorize 6 Mr. Howie to make that approach for settlement in the breach 7 case. And -- 8 Q Again, I'm sorry, maybe I'm not listening close 9 enough. What was the deal? What did you want to do in the 10 breach case to get Mr. Minton out of that case? 11 A Mmm, well, Mr. Howie said to me that -- like I 12 said, that the costs involved in the breach case were fairly 13 low, so that he -- 14 Q What kind of costs? I don't understand. Attorney 15 fees paid by -- 16 THE COURT: Counsel, you'll have to let her 17 finish when you ask a question, write it down, 18 because she does tend to go on and on. 19 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, I will watch myself. 20 THE COURT: You have to let her finish. Okay? 21 You can continue. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll try not to go on and 23 on, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: I didn't mean that disparagingly. 25 But sometimes we learn more than we need to learn.
273 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, okay. 2 A Oh, okay. So, well, you know, I'm not exactly 3 sure, but I guess it was attorney fees or whatever kind of 4 costs it is that you do when you settle a simple case. I'm 5 not really sure what that is. 6 But -- but -- but Mr. Howie said to me that the 7 costs were going to be fairly low in the breach case 8 because -- you know, I don't remember exactly -- but he did, 9 maybe -- he said something about Florida law, in Florida 10 costs are low. I don't know. Something like that. 11 In any case, he thought it would be a fairly 12 simple matter to settle that case. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q With the Church? On behalf of Mr. Minton? 15 A Right. 16 Q Were you named as a party in the breach case? 17 A Yes. 18 Q All right. Individually? Or as the operator of 19 the Lisa McPherson -- 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. What was alleged against you in that case? 22 What was the Church's complaint about what you did to bring 23 you into that case? 24 A I can't remember exactly. 25 THE COURT: You were named as an individual, as
274 1 well as LMT? Or just LMT? 2 THE WITNESS: Just the LMT. 3 THE COURT: You were the representative? 4 THE WITNESS: I am LMT, so -- 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q All right, do you remember what Mr. Minton's role 7 was? What the Church complained Mr. Minton did to bring him 8 in as a defendant in the breach case? 9 THE COURT: Are we talking about the case up in 10 Clearwater? 11 MR. LIROT: I'm -- Judge, I'm getting to the 12 global settlement here. 13 THE COURT: I know, but is that what we are 14 talking about? 15 MR. LIROT: Right, we call it the breach case. 16 THE COURT: That is the one where they said 17 they breached a contract that prohibited 18 Mr. Dandar -- or Mr. Liebreich, actually, from 19 bringing in David Miscavige. And they did so and, 20 therefore, they breached their agreement when they 21 did so, is that it? 22 MR. LIROT: I understand that aspect. I have 23 no idea how LMT or somebody else that is not part of 24 the agreement gets brought in as defendant. 25 THE COURT: I see what you are saying. If she
275 1 knows then. 2 MR. LIROT: If she knows. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q If you know, what was their complaint against 6 Mr. Minton? Did you know one way or another if Mr. Minton 7 was part of this contract or agreement that was being 8 allegedly breached? 9 A Well, you know, I haven't -- I haven't seen the 10 breach complaint in a while. But I can tell you that 11 generally speaking, Scientology was bringing Mr. Minton and 12 LMT into everything. And basically saying that -- you know, 13 generally saying, without using legal terms, that Mr. Minton 14 and LMT in the case were all the same thing. So I would 15 imagine -- although I don't remember too well what the 16 breach case said, I would imagine it followed that same 17 general theory. 18 Q Clarify. You said generally -- 19 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I don't know 20 myself. Mr. Minton wasn't originally a party there, 21 was he? 22 MR. DANDAR: No. 23 THE COURT: So wasn't he kind of brought in 24 when all of this -- the thought being that -- that 25 Mr. Minton was having influence over Mr. Dandar by
276 1 paying him money, and he was having influence over 2 this decision, the very thing that we're arguing 3 about here and, therefore, the motion was made to 4 add him as a party at that time? 5 MR. LIROT: That is my question. 6 MR. DANDAR: That -- 7 THE COURT: Isn't that it? 8 MR. DANDAR: That is it. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. Well, I guess, Judge, this 10 opens another question. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q You said generally. Were you and Mr. Minton named 13 in other lawsuits where the Church of Scientology was a 14 party? 15 A Well, I'm not sure if it happened yet or not. But 16 I think we were going to be named in the counterclaim. 17 Q Why would you want to settle a suit if you are not 18 named yet? 19 A We weren't settling that one. We were settling 20 the breach. 21 Q Were you already named as a party in the breach? 22 A I think so. Well, Mr. Minton was for sure. 23 Q So he's in it for sure. And Mr. Howie apparently 24 says we can probably get out of this one for some relatively 25 menial -- you know, it is reachable, the costs would be a
277 1 reachable event? 2 A Yes, in other words, it wouldn't be too much of a 3 burden on Mr. Minton to settle it. 4 THE COURT: When you say costs, ma'am, are you 5 talking about -- when you settle a case, you 6 normally settle for damages. In other words, you 7 settle because you are going to get a judgment -- 8 THE WITNESS: In Florida, is there a limit on 9 that? Are they low in Florida or something? 10 THE COURT: No, it is just normally I wouldn't 11 expect a lawyer to be talking about settling a case 12 for costs. He would probably say we can settle 13 this, but I don't imagine the damages would be too 14 big. 15 THE WITNESS: That would probably be the same. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q But, either way, you make it sound like it was a 18 relatively appealing manner of settlement. Is that true? 19 A Well, Mr. Howie thought it would be -- you know, 20 Mr. Howie thought that he could arrange a settlement with 21 them that would be appealing enough to Mr. Minton that he 22 would do it. 23 Q Okay. And what did you do next in that regard? 24 A I asked Mr. Minton if he would authorize Mr. Howie 25 to make that approach.
278 1 Q And -- 2 A And -- 3 Q I'm sorry. 4 A And -- 5 Q Go ahead and finish. 6 A I was jumping ahead. Sorry. 7 Q So basically you asked Mr. Minton, said, "Hey, can 8 I talk to Bruce Howie and we can try to work this out?" 9 A Yes. 10 Q What was your discussion with Mr. Minton? 11 A That Mr. Howie thought that he could come to a 12 reasonable settlement on the breach case. That I told him 13 that I was concerned that Scientology wouldn't agree to just 14 settling one case, but that I thought it was certainly 15 something that Mr. Howie should try to do. 16 Q So originally -- 17 A Something like that. 18 Q I'm sorry. Originally, you thought it was a good 19 idea Mr. Howie would just settle the breach case? 20 A I thought it would be great if they would. I just 21 didn't think that they would. 22 Q All right. Now, why is it that you are acting as 23 the go-between with Mr. Minton and Mr. Howie? 24 A Well, as I said earlier, Mr. Minton was in very 25 bad shape. He wasn't wanting to talk to anybody. He was
279 1 hardly leaving his house at all. And I was very concerned 2 about him, and he was speaking to Mr. Howie about my 3 concerns. 4 Q So Mr. Minton is not leaving the house at all, for 5 what reason? Why is he so distraught? 6 A Because Judge Baird had already been about to put 7 him in jail in October. Judge Schaeffer was -- he was 8 afraid Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird were going to 9 continue to come after him on contempt charges. He was 10 perjuring himself in depositions, and he was afraid that the 11 courts were going to -- well, he was just extremely afraid 12 that he was going to be destroyed over the whole situation. 13 Q So basically, as I understand your testimony, that 14 there was -- there were some depositions taken of 15 Mr. Minton, and he testified about this alleged agreement, 16 the agreement to, I guess, fund the Lisa McPherson Trust, 17 that was one concern. Is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q All right. And the other concern was about some 20 checks that I guess were not from Mr. Minton's account. 21 That was another concern? 22 A Well, he had testified that he had given 23 Mr. Dandar a certain amount of money, which was a lie, 24 because he had given Mr. Dandar a lot more money than he was 25 testifying to.
280 1 Q Okay. We'll get a chance to explore that. I'm 2 just trying to isolate your concerns, or at least what you 3 felt Mr. Minton's concerns were since you were acting as his 4 communicator, I guess. 5 A Well, I wouldn't characterize myself as his 6 communicator. 7 Q You were communicating messages between Mr. Minton 8 and Mr. Howie. Is that correct? 9 A Not really. I was just having a conversation with 10 Mr. Howie on my own, really. I wasn't acting as a 11 go-between because Mr. Minton was in such apathy about the 12 whole situation that he wasn't thinking that his attorneys 13 could even help him. 14 Q Well, I'm confused here. If he's apathetic and 15 he's not on the phone and you are making the phone calls, 16 that doesn't make you the communicator? I mean, does 17 Mr. Minton make any of these phone calls? 18 A He did after Mr. Howie and I spoke. 19 Q Okay. So basically you gave him a ray of hope, 20 said hey, maybe there is a way we can get you out of all 21 this. What I'm trying to ask, you are concerned about his 22 testimony about the agreement, or lack thereof, or whatever 23 he testified to -- 24 A No. That is not what I said. 25 Q All right. I'm just -- I'm asking the question
281 1 here. What were your primary concerns? You mentioned 2 perjury -- 3 A You want me to tell you? 4 Q -- false statements? And you described this 5 overall fear. I want to know specifically what it was -- 6 A I'll tell you. 7 Q -- that Mr. Minton was afraid of? 8 A I'll tell you. 9 Q Please. 10 A Well, actually, you have asked me several 11 questions. Let me answer it one at a time. 12 Q Please. 13 A The first question you asked was what was I 14 concerned about. What I was concerned about was 15 Mr. Minton's state of mind. That is what I was concerned 16 about. I was speaking to Mr. Howie, hoping that Mr. Howie 17 could do something that would cause Mr. Minton to feel 18 better than he was feeling. Because he was feeling really, 19 really bad. Mr. Minton's concerns, he wasn't particularly 20 voicing them at the time. I knew, generally speaking, that 21 he was very concerned about his perjury. But Mr. Minton was 22 not being very communicative, even to me. 23 All I knew was that the only possibility I could 24 see on the horizon for any help for Mr. Minton at all was 25 his attorney, Mr. Howie, and Mr. Jonas. So I was talking to
282 1 them, seeing if they could come up with any ideas for how to 2 help Mr. Minton in this situation he was in. 3 Q Well, so that sounds like it was a lot more than 4 concern about perjury. 5 A What? Why are you saying that? 6 Q I didn't say it. I think what you said was he's 7 concerned about perjury, but what I was concerned with was 8 his overall malaise, his discontent, he seemed to be 9 overwhelmed with angst. 10 A All I'm saying, Mr. Lirot, is that my concern was 11 Mr. Minton's state of mind. What Mr. Minton's particular 12 concerns were, he wasn't going into detail with me about. I 13 knew, generally speaking, that he was very concerned about 14 the situation that Mr. Dandar had -- or that he felt that 15 Mr. Dandar had put him in. That is what I knew. And that 16 is what I was talking to Mr. Howie about. 17 Q Okay. What exactly did you know about what 18 Mr. Minton was concerned with? You said about the perjury. 19 You said, "That's what I knew." And I'm trying to find out 20 if it is about the agreement and about a check. That is the 21 perjury. The alleged perjury? 22 A Well, what I knew then and what I know now, I'll 23 try and separate the two. 24 Well, I knew -- I for sure knew about the lying 25 about the agreement because I had also done that. You know,
283 1 saying that there was no agreement when there was. 2 Q Okay. 3 A So that I knew about for sure at that time. 4 Q So -- 5 A I also -- 6 Q You know for sure you lied about it in your 7 deposition? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q You lied about the agreement? 10 A Yes. I said that there was none when I knew there 11 was. 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just object to 13 counsel cutting off her answers. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 I forget, too, you know, you get in hearings 16 and you break for the weekend and you read 17 depositions and you don't remember whether this has 18 been covered or not. I'm sure it maybe has, but I'm 19 going to ask because I can't remember. 20 What exactly is this agreement? Are we 21 referring to the agreement regarding some proceeds 22 from the lawsuit? 23 THE WITNESS: The bulk of the proceeds. 24 THE COURT: This is this unwritten bulk, 25 substantial, understanding, is that it?
284 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Your Honor, it was the one 2 where the bulk of the proceeds of any judgment would 3 go to the LMT. 4 THE COURT: Right. And that bulk was never 5 defined? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, it would be defined, you 7 know, as far as a percentage, no. 8 THE COURT: And I read this weekend, I thought, 9 the only word ever used was bulk, but that wasn't. 10 I heard it defined now as substantial. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: I have heard it defined as two or 13 three other terms, I think bulk most of the time. 14 The long and short of it, you are talking about some 15 understanding but not a written understanding and 16 not something that is put in legal terms. 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Why would you lie about an agreement if there was 21 or wasn't one? 22 A Mr. Dandar had made it very clear that it was bad 23 for the case to talk about this agreement, that this 24 agreement needed to stop existing because Scientology was 25 using this agreement as something to try to, you know, put
285 1 some nefarious motive on all of us, so we needed to counter 2 this attempt to Scientology's part to make some -- to create 3 the impression of the nefarious motive by making that 4 agreement go away. 5 Q Okay. What nefarious motive? What is wrong with 6 having an agreement? 7 A Well, there wasn't anything wrong. But at the 8 time, especially after Judge Moody left the case and Quesada 9 came on the case, Judge Quesada -- Mr. Dandar started to 10 lose quite a number of motions. And he felt that -- I mean, 11 he felt that Judge Quesada was being blackmailed by 12 Scientology. He felt that the court system had been 13 corrupted by Scientology. He felt that there was a lot 14 of -- you know, Wally Pope he felt was being blackmailed. I 15 mean, the scenario that we were facing was kind of this 16 corrupt court system and this, you know, evil empire 17 corrupting this court system. And we had to counter all of 18 this manipulation of the court by the evil empire by doing 19 everything we possibly could -- it might be easier if he 20 just stood next to you, rather than jumping up and down. 21 THE COURT: That is disconcerting. 22 MR. LIROT: Do you want me to inquire from 23 counsel table? 24 THE COURT: That would be a lot easier. I 25 don't like it and --
286 1 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. 2 THE COURT: The only reason I'm not fussing 3 here, because I know you came on this case late. 4 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 5 THE COURT: If they were doing it, it would be 6 fussing at them. 7 MR. LIROT: I appreciate your indulgence. 8 MR. FUGATE: For the record, so it is clear, 9 Mr. Dandar was walking back and forth from the 10 podium. 11 THE COURT: Yes, and that is all right. 12 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record. 13 THE COURT: He's counsel and he's -- they are 14 co-counsel here, and I think he's probably letting 15 Mr. Lirot handle this, but obviously Mr. Lirot is 16 not up to the same speed that Mr. Dandar is, so I 17 have no problem. I just don't like people getting 18 up and down, up and down. 19 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 20 Mr. Dandar said he thought Judge Quesada was 21 being blackmailed by Scientology? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Was he talking -- saying that about 24 me? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, Mmm, yes, your Honor.
287 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Did you know that to be true? 4 A What? 5 Q Was anybody being blackmailed? Did you know? 6 A Mmm, we certainly thought so. 7 Q Why? 8 A Why? Because why else would a judge be making 9 rulings against Mr. Dandar? I mean, what judge in their 10 right mind would be making rulings in favor of Scientology. 11 That is how we felt. So if a judge was making rulings in 12 favor of Scientology, it must be blackmail. That was -- 13 Q Well -- 14 A -- the -- the thinking. 15 Q I guess you have been around the block with 16 Scientology. Is that something that you had seen them do or 17 were aware of them doing in the past? 18 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 19 outside of the scope of -- 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 A To blackmail someone? 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Yes. 24 A No. But I certainly thought it was something 25 that --
288 1 Q I just -- I don't want to interrupt you, but that 2 is just a yes or no for that one. 3 A Okay. 4 Q So Scientology had done that in the past, yes or 5 no? 6 A Not that I know of. 7 Q You don't have any knowledge of Scientology 8 blackmailing anybody in the past? 9 A Mmm, is there some knowledge I have that you know 10 of? Because if there is, tell me. 11 THE COURT: Well, no, that is what he wants you 12 to answer. If he does, he'll undoubtedly slip it on 13 you and say gotcha. So he's asking you and you need 14 to tell the truth. If you know it, you have to say 15 it. If you don't, you don't. 16 A As I'm sitting here right now, I don't know of any 17 time that Scientology blackmailed somebody. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q How in the heck does this idea come up? You are 20 the one with the familiarity with Scientology. And, you 21 know, as far as this belief, I had some judges rule against 22 me and I don't automatically think my opponents are 23 blackmailing the judge. So how does this come up? 24 A Well, as I testified on Friday, there is a certain 25 degree of deamonizing that was going on. It is sort of
289 1 similar to the way Israel and Palestine are deamonizing each 2 other. The anti-Scientology side was deamonizing 3 Scientology in every possible way, as similar to the way the 4 Scientology side was deamonizing the anti-Scientology side, 5 as well. 6 I'm not saying this was one-sided, but it was -- I 7 mean, there is a large community of people today, as we 8 speak, who -- who see the situation in very black-and-white 9 terms. You know, Scientology is all bad. Mr. Dandar is all 10 good. Mmm, if something happens bad to Mr. Dandar, it is 11 because Scientology has done something bad. I mean, that is 12 just -- it was the thinking -- my thinking, it was the 13 climate in which we were operating. 14 Q So you just thought that this overwhelming cloud 15 of discontent with Scientology justified you to lie about 16 something regarding this amorphous agreement? 17 A No, it wasn't a cloud of discontent. It wasn't a 18 cloud of discontent. It was feeling -- it was a feeling 19 that Scientology was doing things that were illegal, and 20 they were corrupting the court system, and they were putting 21 Mr. Dandar and the case in jeopardy by coming after us. And 22 we had to do whatever we could to protect the case, help the 23 case. And as I said on Friday, there was an overall feeling 24 that the end justified the means. 25 Q Well, how does coming after you jeopardize a
290 1 wrongful death case that you are not a party to? 2 A Have you read -- have you read the pleadings and 3 the depositions of Mr. Minton and me? Mr. Lirot, if you 4 have read these things, you can't possibly be asking me that 5 question. Every question that they were asking of either 6 Mr. Minton or myself was about this wrongful death case. 7 Q Okay. 8 A There was no question about that. 9 Q Well -- 10 A That -- that the attempt was to harm the wrongful 11 death case through Mr. Minton and myself. There was no 12 question about that. And if you read the -- the previous 13 things that have happened in this case, I think that would 14 be clear. 15 And so Mr. Dandar was very, very concerned -- 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A Let me finish. 18 Q Yes? 19 A Mr. Dandar was very, very concerned to make sure 20 neither Mr. Minton nor I said anything that was going to 21 hurt the case. 22 THE COURT: What difference? I'm just kind of 23 curious. If the judges were being blackmailed, 24 there really wasn't much you could do about it, was 25 there? I mean, that doesn't make a great deal of
291 1 sense to me. Because if you back off an agreement 2 or you go forward with an agreement, if the other 3 side is paying off a judge or blackmailing a judge, 4 it doesn't really matter what you do. 5 THE WITNESS: But the way it was working -- in 6 other words, because Judge Quesada -- see, what 7 happened, Judge Moody had been limiting discovery 8 very, very narrowly from Mr. Dandar's side. Then 9 when Judge Quesada took over, he -- he started 10 ruling -- I mean, he just sort of threw out Judge 11 Moody's rulings and allowed for much, much broader 12 discovery of Mr. Minton and me. 13 So the problem that Mr. Dandar was trying to 14 solve was that Mr. Minton and I were being asked a 15 lot of questions in deposition that Judge Moody 16 hadn't allowed us to be asked. But now Judge 17 Quesada was allowing us to be asked. 18 And the feeling was that these questions 19 shouldn't be being allowed to be asked in the first 20 place. So that, you know, our -- you know, we 21 shouldn't be having to answer these questions. 22 And -- 23 THE COURT: So just go on ahead and come in and 24 commit -- I hate to tell you this, ma'am, but all of 25 a sudden, ma'am, it is making no sense.
292 1 But you continue on, Counselor. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q I guess that is my question. Why, if Judge 4 Quesada is making these harsh discovery rulings, would it 5 ever occur to you to lie about an agreement as a way to get 6 out of that? Where do those parallel lines intersect? 7 Please explain that to me. 8 A Well, because -- Mmm, basically what was happening 9 was that the case was taking a very bad turn with Judge 10 Quesada. And the discovery that Judge Quesada was allowing 11 was turning all of the attention onto Mr. Minton and the 12 LMT. And Mr. Dandar was trying to keep the attention from 13 going on to Mr. Minton and me -- or Mr. Minton and the LMT. 14 And -- 15 Q Okay. 16 A -- he was trying to minimize the involvement of 17 Mr. Minton and the LMT in the court's eyes. 18 Q Why? 19 A Because he didn't want -- he didn't want these 20 things to be coming out that were showing -- that would show 21 Mr. Minton's involvement in the case and the LMT's 22 involvement in the case. 23 MR. FUGATE: I object to the speculation, your 24 Honor. She's speculating. 25 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it.
293 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Well -- 3 THE COURT: For a little while. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q I have read the depositions. Don't most of the 6 questions talk about the LMT and the money in the LMT and 7 the records of the LMT that just don't have anything to do 8 with the wrongful death case? 9 A Are you talking about my deposition or 10 Mr. Minton's? 11 Q Let's ask you what you know about yours. Wasn't 12 it all LMT? 13 A There were a lot of questions about the LMT. In 14 fact, all of it was about the LMT, including was the LMT 15 going to be getting the bulk of the proceeds of the case. 16 Q Why does that affect the wrongful death case? 17 A Whether the LMT would get the bulk of the 18 proceeds? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Well, as I said, Scientology was claiming that 21 because the LMT was going to get the bulk of the proceeds, 22 this was why -- you know, basically why Mr. Minton was 23 controlling the case, this was why he was so involved in the 24 case and things like that. And Mr. Dandar was trying to 25 downplay those aspects of the case.
294 1 Q Because it wasn't true. Right? 2 A Mmm -- 3 Q It wasn't true, was it? 4 A Excuse me, but yes, it was. Yes, it was. 5 Q That -- your position is that the agreement was 6 true that Mr. Minton was going to get some bulk of the 7 proceeds to fund the Lisa McPherson Trust? 8 A The LMT was going to get the bulk proceeds. 9 Q So what? Why is that a bad thing? 10 A Well, in fact, in -- in -- you know, in the 11 general scheme of things, it's not a bad thing. There is 12 nothing wrong with it. But it was being painted in a very 13 bad light, and Mr. Dandar was very concerned about having 14 that come out, because he was afraid of how Scientology was 15 going to be able to use it to discredit the case. 16 Q But -- 17 A Because they were trying -- 18 Q Weren't they already trying it? 19 I didn't mean to interrupt you. 20 A Go ahead. 21 Q Weren't they already trying to discredit this case 22 by making suggestions that you knew to be false? 23 Let me ask you this? Did Mr. Minton have a 24 nefarious motive in funding or loaning or giving or 25 transferring or in any way giving Mr. Dandar a penny in any
295 1 capacity for the wrongful death case? Is there something 2 wrong with that? 3 A Mmm -- 4 THE COURT: There are two different questions 5 there, Counselor. The first one is did Mr. Minton 6 have a nefarious motive. And I presume that 7 question needs to be answered first. Then the next 8 question, I guess, is there anything wrong with 9 that. I suppose it depends on maybe what the answer 10 is. Maybe -- you know, maybe you don't know. Did 11 Mr. Minton have some bad motive in funding the Lisa 12 McPherson case? Or giving money to Mr. Dandar so he 13 could pursue the case? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. He felt like he 15 was, you know, fighting the good fight and, you 16 know, crusading against something that was really 17 bad. 18 THE COURT: And that was Scientology, as far as 19 he was concerned, the Church of Scientology? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: So he gave money to Mr. Dandar, I 22 suppose, as I read many of his depositions, as much 23 as he had given money to other folks involved in 24 some litigation against Scientology, needed money to 25 carry on?
296 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. So I guess that brings you 3 to the second part of the question. 4 Was there anything bad about that? In other 5 words, he had no -- he had no nefarious intention so 6 there couldn't have been anything bad about it, 7 Counselor, so we don't even need to get to the 8 second one. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So why would you lie about the agreement -- 12 THE COURT: Counselor, asked and answered. You 13 may not like the answer but she answered it three 14 times. 15 MR. LIROT: All right. 16 THE COURT: I know what her answer is, and it 17 will be the same if you ask it six times so really I 18 don't need it again. 19 MR. LIROT: I'll move on, Judge. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q So you talked about the agreement. 22 What else was it that concerned you? Checks? 23 Money? Was that the additional concern of perjury? 24 A What concerned me? 25 Q Yes.
297 1 A Because what I already said was what concerned me 2 was Mr. Minton's state of mind. 3 Q Okay. But you said his state of mind, as I 4 understand it, was based on concerns about the impact of 5 committing perjury in these cases. Is that correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. And we've identified what I understand 8 your testimony to be, two issues about that perjury, one 9 about this agreement, whether there was or wasn't an 10 agreement, and the other is about some checks. Is that 11 correct? 12 A Mmm, I believe -- I believe so. 13 Q Okay. 14 A There may have been other things but -- 15 Q What would those be, what other things? 16 THE COURT: What he wants to know is everything 17 that you knew that was bothering Mr. Minton when you 18 made this call to Mr. Howie. 19 THE WITNESS: Right, I know. 20 THE COURT: I think we're talking about the 21 perjury that you mentioned, and you told him one was 22 the agreement, one was the checks. 23 And is there anything else that you know that 24 he committed perjury about, in general terms? 25 THE WITNESS: I think at that time those were
298 1 the two things I knew about. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. After that, do you know of anything 4 else? 5 A Well, now, as I sit here, I know of other things. 6 But I think at that time, that was what he had talked to me 7 about. 8 Q What other things would those be? 9 A That I know about now? 10 Q Sure. 11 A Mmm, I believe he testified -- Mmm -- I would have 12 to review his affidavit. But at that time in January those 13 were the two main things. I don't really remember, as I'm 14 sitting here, what else. But I think there are other things 15 covered in his affidavit. 16 Q Would you agree the two big things are this 17 agreement and the check? 18 A Well, the two things that I knew about in January 19 were those two things. 20 Q Okay. Now, the Judge was right, I had talked 21 about the agreement. Let's talk about the check. What 22 check was it he seemed to be concerned about? 23 A Mmm, I don't recall that he was very specific 24 about this with me. He just was very, very upset with 25 Mr. Dandar because he had perjured himself about how much
299 1 money he had given to the case. 2 Q Do you know on what basis he felt he had perjured 3 himself? 4 A I don't believe he went into much detail with me 5 about that. But by that time, January of 2002, he was -- 6 Mmm -- very upset with Mr. Dandar. 7 Q Okay. Did you have knowledge that the Church 8 already knew about a significant sum of money that 9 Mr. Minton had tendered in some fashion to Mr. Dandar? 10 The Church already knew Mr. Dandar received some 11 money from Mr. Minton. Is that true? 12 A I'm sure that's true. 13 Q Okay. Over a million bucks, does that sound like 14 a fair round number? 15 A I believe they did. I believe they did. 16 Q So the Church already knows that Mr. Minton -- and 17 I'll just say gave, for practical purposes, without that 18 reflecting any legal analysis of the money -- Mr. Minton 19 gave Mr. Dandar over a million dollars and the Church 20 already knew all about that. Right? 21 A I think Mr. Minton loaned over a million dollars 22 to the estate would be more accurate. 23 Q Okay. All right. But it's no secret that there 24 is money flying around. Is that correct? 25 A That there is money flying around?
300 1 Q That it is no secret -- please, I don't want to be 2 flip. 3 A That was a little flip. 4 Q At that point the Church of Scientology was well 5 aware that Robert Minton, in some form or another, had put 6 over a million dollars into the wrongful death suit 7 involving Lisa McPherson? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So they already knew that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So what difference would more money make? What 12 possible difference, in your mind, would getting more money 13 make if they already know about a million dollars? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q I don't, either. Why lie about it? 16 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I object to 17 the gratuitous comment. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 MR. LIROT: I won't argue. I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: We don't need any editorializing. 21 Save that for me. 22 MR. LIROT: I apologize, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to say -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I wasn't clear. 25 THE COURT: I think this is what he's trying to
301 1 say: If the Church already knew that Mr. Minton had 2 given over a million dollars, any way you want to 3 look at it, to assist in funding this case, why 4 would they want to lie about more? In other words, 5 a million dollars is a lot of money. And we now 6 know we are talking about two more checks, one for 7 $500,000, one for $750,000. Those are the two main 8 checks. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, there was one for 500 and 10 one for 250, and the one for 250 had not been 11 written yet -- 12 THE COURT: One for 500. So I guess the 13 question was, if the Church already knew that 14 Mr. Minton had given, to assist somebody, over a 15 million dollars, why would it matter if he had given 16 him, at that point, a million-five? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I think that is 18 a question that Mr. Minton would better be able to 19 answer than I. 20 But -- but as I understand it, Mr. Dandar had 21 not reported the $500,000 check to the Court and had 22 asked Mr. Minton not to report the $500,000 check to 23 the Court. Why he asked him not to report it, I 24 don't know. 25 THE COURT: So -- so, if I understand you
302 1 correctly, Mr. Minton was doing a favor for 2 Mr. Dandar. He didn't know anything -- he wasn't 3 thinking how that would affect the case; he was 4 thinking Mr. Dandar said, "I haven't reported it so 5 I don't want you to report it." He was trying to do 6 his friend, Mr. Dandar, a favor. 7 THE WITNESS: And, Mr. Dandar, you know, why it 8 would make a difference, $500,000, more or less, I 9 can't answer that question. But -- I mean, all I'm 10 telling you now is what I have been told by 11 Mr. Minton. 12 THE COURT: Right. 13 THE WITNESS: You know. But what I understood 14 from him was that this was also part of this attempt 15 to try to minimize Mr. Minton's involvement in the 16 case. Why $500,000 would do that one way or 17 another, I don't know. But, you know, Mr. Dandar 18 wanted him not to report that money. Mr. Dandar 19 told Mr. Minton that he wasn't reporting it because 20 he was trying to minimize Mr. Minton's involvement 21 in the case, as far as I understood. I may be wrong 22 about that. But -- 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Well, I want to explore what you did know. I 25 guess you responded to the judge it was two checks, one for
303 1 500 and one for 250? 2 A What I was explaining to the judge is that at the 3 time when you are talking about, the $250,000 check had not 4 been written yet. 5 Q So we're talking about one check for $500,000? 6 A Yes. 7 Q After it's already common knowledge that 8 Mr. Dandar has gotten over a million from Mr. Minton? 9 A I think you said that before. 10 Q But you agree with me on that? 11 A I think I already did. 12 Q Okay. Was there any order for Mr. Dandar to 13 provide evidence or -- or do you know of any reason 14 Mr. Dandar would have had to say anything about the $500,000 15 check? 16 A Apparently so. Apparently -- but again, I'm 17 probably not the best person to ask this. But from what I 18 understood, he made some sort of a proffer to the Court and 19 had not included that check. 20 Q Were you following the case closely at that point 21 in time? 22 A No. 23 Q All right. What were you occupying yourself with 24 at that point in time? 25 A At which point?
304 1 Q During the time this check changed hands? I guess 2 this is May of 2000? 3 A I was working at the LMT. 4 Q So did -- when did Mr. Minton tell you that he had 5 lied about this one check? 6 A After the LMT was closed down, I believe -- or, 7 no -- Mmm, perhaps -- I'm not sure when a deposition came up 8 about that. It may have been at the end of the summer of 9 2000 or end of 2000. I'm not really sure when it first came 10 up for him. 11 Q I'm sorry, so my time frame is we have a $500,000 12 check that is not drawn on Mr. Minton's account. Are you 13 aware of that? It doesn't have Mr. Minton's name on it, it 14 is just a $500,000 check? 15 A I am now. 16 Q You are now? And it was May of 2000 or 17 thereabouts, right? 18 A As I understand it, yes. 19 THE COURT: Can we establish something? Do we 20 know now if -- matter of fact, I would like to know 21 if this check is from Mr. Minton or wasn't. Do we 22 know that as a matter of fact yet? 23 MR. LIROT: We don't know that, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Minton says it is. He
305 1 testified it was his money. 2 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Dandar knew it was. 3 THE COURT: But, I mean, we don't have an 4 agreement from both sides that there is some number 5 that equates back to some bank and that bank says 6 that is an account registered to Robert Minton? 7 THE WITNESS: I think -- 8 THE COURT: Wait a second, I'm asking the 9 lawyers now. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would just respond from 12 our perspective, we've heard testimony, but we don't 13 have anything other than the testimony of Mr. Minton 14 regarding that, and we're still not even sure 15 exactly what he said about that check. As we 16 recall, in looking at the -- and I'm sure they'll 17 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the testimony 18 was, "I caused it to be issued," was his testimony. 19 Now, whether that means it was his or he put the 20 money somewhere, we don't even know. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think the record of the 23 testimony before Judge Baird was that he had caused 24 the checks to be issued and that he -- that it was 25 from his account, and it went to Mr. Dandar and he
306 1 gave it or handed it to Mr. Dandar. 2 THE COURT: Of course, Mr. Minton admitted to 3 committing perjury? 4 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: So we have that -- we can't 6 necessarily just assume everything that he said was 7 true. Maybe what he said before was true. We don't 8 know. 9 I'm asking you, do you have any proof that is 10 his money? 11 MR. FUGATE: I think -- 12 THE COURT: I'm not asking what he would say. 13 I'm asking you, do you have any proof that is his 14 money? 15 MR. FUGATE: It's my understanding that is his 16 money and that he produced a copy of the check to 17 indicate it was his money. 18 THE COURT: Where did he produce it? 19 MR. FUGATE: At the hearing. There is a copy 20 of the check produced in the Baird hearing. 21 THE COURT: Well, that doesn't have his name on 22 it. I saw that. That is a bank check. 23 MR. FUGATE: You asked me a question. That is 24 my answer. 25 THE COURT: So you don't have proof it is his
307 1 other than his word? 2 MR. FUGATE: That's right. 3 THE COURT: All right. So we don't know if 4 it's his money or not yet. Other than he says it 5 is. 6 MR. LIROT: Fine. 7 THE COURT: Let me ask you something, while I'm 8 thinking about it, if I may, ma'am. 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, he did cause that check to 10 be produced by calling his bank and having copies 11 from his bank sent to him -- 12 THE COURT: I want to know if we have something 13 from that bank that says this account -- this money 14 came from an account that is registered in the name 15 of Robert Minton. If it doesn't -- 16 MR. FUGATE: I don't have anything. 17 THE COURT: I just want to know if you had that 18 kind of proof. If you don't, that is all I need to 19 know. Thank you. Mr. -- I noticed in reading 20 depositions of Mr. Minton I heard that -- well, 21 let's put it this way, in reading the testimony of 22 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar indicates that this money, 23 according to Mr. Minton, came from some third party, 24 unknown anonymous source. And I felt that was 25 fairly outrageous that anybody would believe you
308 1 could get $500,000. To me, that is a huge sum of 2 money, from somebody that nobody knew from Europe. 3 And so as I'm reading this deposition of 4 Mr. Minton, I see where Mr. Minton said over and 5 over the same thing about LMT. Which is your 6 corporation. That you got $300,000, because that is 7 the money he put in, from some -- I can't remember 8 who this guy is, some fellow, apparently also an 9 anti-Scientology person, with a German name. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Lund or something like that. 12 MR. DANDAR: Andreas Heidal-Lund.-- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Then LMT got a $500,000 anonymous 15 donor from someplace in Europe, is that true? 16 THE WITNESS: At that time, that is -- 17 THE COURT: I'm asking you now, is that true? 18 THE WITNESS: No, it's not. 19 THE COURT: Where did the money from? 20 THE WITNESS: From Mr. Minton. 21 THE COURT: So Mr. Minton forgot to tell us he 22 lied about that, too. 23 Proceed. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Now --
309 1 THE COURT: That is something difficult, that 2 is another one of these anonymous things that I 3 thought was about as weird as what I had heard 4 Mr. Dandar say. But apparently that is something 5 Mr. Minton likes to say. So it may not be so weird. 6 Apparently he likes to say it. He said it under 7 oath at least once, if not twice, and I don't 8 believe he recanted that. So you best be hurrying. 9 Proceed. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 THE COURT: I thought that was weird when I 12 read it for the second time. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Ms. Brooks, apparently you did not know about that 15 check at the time that -- let me back up a moment. 16 You said it's a relatively recent revelation that 17 the check Mr. Minton testified about not coming from him 18 actually was his money? 19 A No. I don't believe that is what I said. If I 20 did, that is not correct. 21 Q Well, when did he tell you that he had lied about 22 that money, the $500,000 check? 23 A That is -- I don't remember when he went into 24 deposition after it happened. I know that he told me about 25 the money that he had given Mr. Dandar very soon after he
310 1 gave it to him in May of 2000. 2 Q This is the $500,000? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And he told you it was his money? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Were you there -- 7 A He told Mr. Dandar it was -- 8 Q How do you know? 9 A Mmm -- 10 Q I'll ask it another way. Were you there when 11 Mr. Minton said, "Here is $500,000"? Were you there? 12 A I don't believe so. 13 Q You have no idea what Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar? 14 A Only what he told me. 15 Q Only after the fact. So my question is, what do 16 you know specifically Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar upon the 17 tender of the $500,000 check? 18 A Only what he told me he said. 19 Q Okay. Who told you that it was his money? 20 A Mr. Minton. 21 Q All right. Did the Church tell you it was his 22 money? 23 A Mmm, I don't believe so. What do you mean? When? 24 Q I'm -- 25 A Ever?
311 1 Q Did they know? 2 A Sorry? 3 Q Ever? Did the Church ever say, "We know this 4 $500,000 is Mr. Minton's"? 5 THE COURT: Are you talking about during these 6 confidential meetings that went on? 7 MR. LIROT: That would include that, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Why don't you include that because 9 that would be the most -- the time she might have 10 heard it. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Okay. During these meetings did you ever hear 13 from the Church, "Mr. Minton, we know this is your money, we 14 know you lied about it, you are in some hot water here"? 15 A No. 16 Q Never once? 17 A Never once. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Mr. Minton was the one who brought that up. 20 Q Did you lie about that check in your deposition? 21 A I don't believe it came up in my deposition. 22 Q Okay. So the only lies you told were about the 23 Lisa McPherson Trust agreement for the bulk of the money or 24 something like that? 25 A Well, I don't know if you see my recantation, but
312 1 it was also regarding some discovery. 2 Q The discovery regarding what? 3 A Well, if I can refer to my -- 4 THE COURT: You can. 5 THE WITNESS: Can I? 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 A There were unedited videotapes that were asked for 8 which I knew existed and didn't provide. 9 There were also hard drives that were removed 10 before the special master's inspection. 11 THE COURT: Who did that? 12 THE WITNESS: Mmm, that was done at my 13 direction and Mr. Minton's. 14 THE COURT: Well, that is fine. But who did 15 it? 16 THE WITNESS: I believe Mark Bunker did it. 17 THE COURT: Who destroyed the evidence that was 18 left out in the hallway? 19 THE WITNESS: That wasn't destroyed, your 20 Honor. It was removed and taken somewhere else. 21 THE COURT: So it's available? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Well, don't destroy it. 24 THE WITNESS: I won't, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right.
313 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q So -- 3 THE COURT: And that is an order. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q We are talking about your deposition again. Now, 7 do you recall being asked anything generally about donations 8 to the Lisa McPherson Trust? 9 A Yes. I was asked about those funds. And at that 10 time I did not know that they were from Mr. Minton. He said 11 they came from an anonymous source. 12 Q So, basically, you thought this money came from an 13 anonymous source. What kind of check did you get? 14 A Mmm -- 15 THE COURT: Which are we talking about now? 16 MR. LIROT: We are talking about the anonymous 17 donation to the Lisa McPherson Trust that Ms. Brooks 18 testified in her deposition, yes, we received this 19 huge anonymous donation. I guess the question 20 posed -- again, Judge, the deposition will speak for 21 itself, but as I recall the question, did Mr. Minton 22 give you this huge check for the Lisa McPherson 23 Trust. And I think the testimony generally was, no, 24 we got this anonymous donation. 25 THE COURT: Counsel, you better being talk to
314 1 your client because I don't think she recanted on 2 this, and I believe if she said this in her 3 deposition and it came from an anonymous source and 4 it came from Mr. Minton, it is false testimony. It 5 may not have been at the time. It may be what is 6 happening. But generally, I think that she's sort 7 of recanted everything up to today's date and 8 corrected the record. And, frankly, I think that I 9 corrected that record. 10 MR. FUGATE: And -- 11 THE COURT: Certainly it wasn't corrected by 12 the Church of Scientology, and it wasn't corrected 13 by anybody else. I believe I got this witness to 14 correct it. Not that it surprised me after I saw 15 about the other anonymous $500,000 and where it 16 purportedly came from. 17 Quite frankly, I don't know whether either of 18 the so-called anonymous $500,000 checks came from 19 Mr. Minton or they didn't. But if they did, and she 20 knew about it, and she testified it came from some 21 anonymous donor because they were trying to cover up 22 for tax purposes or whatever else, she better fix 23 it. 24 Continue on. 25 MR. FUGATE: Could we just identify what
315 1 deposition he's talking about? I think there were 2 several. 3 THE COURT: I -- 4 THE WITNESS: It was August 15, 2001, I 5 believe, when that came up. And, your Honor, that 6 is the reason why I didn't recant that, but I will. 7 THE COURT: You didn't know about it at the 8 time? 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't know about it when I 10 testified. 11 THE COURT: But you knew about it when you were 12 making all these corrections to your testimony? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I don't want you to leave this 15 proceeding without making all of the corrections to 16 the testimony that is wrong. And if, in fact, there 17 is something that we just haven't picked up, the 18 Church hasn't picked up or one side or another 19 hasn't picked up and it is wrong, just because it 20 might benefit or behoove Mr. Minton or you to leave 21 that record wrong, I don't want it left wrong. 22 THE WITNESS: I understand, your Honor. I 23 didn't have any intention of -- 24 THE COURT: All right. But I didn't see 25 anybody correct it.
316 1 THE WITNESS: Well, that hasn't been corrected, 2 and you are right about that. 3 THE COURT: And it wasn't corrected by 4 Mr. Minton, either, I don't believe. Is that true? 5 I don't know if you know what all he corrected -- 6 THE WITNESS: I think you may be correct -- 7 right about that. 8 THE COURT: I don't want to come up with any 9 more things, because as I said, I spent all my 10 nights reading about this excitement. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, that is the only thing I 12 know about that hasn't been covered. 13 THE COURT: I can probably find it, page and 14 line here, for all of you. 15 Continue on. 16 MR. LIROT: Very good. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q While we were talking about your depositions, are 19 there any other -- I think the judge already mentioned this, 20 are there any other things you said that you knew were 21 untrue when you were being asked questions during the 22 deposition? 23 A Actually, I didn't know that was untrue when I was 24 being asked the question in deposition. 25 Q I think --
317 1 THE COURT: I brought it up at this time only 2 because it relates to this check, this $500,000 3 check. If you remember when we started this 4 hearing, I was somewhat suspect of the answer given 5 by Mr. Dandar; that being that he believed somebody 6 who just said, "Well, here is some $500,000 from an 7 anonymous source." I mean, nobody has given me a 8 nickel from some anonymous source. If somebody 9 gives me something, they want me to know they have 10 given it to me. So do I. I'm not too good at this 11 altruistic donation. 12 But the deal is is when I was reading the 13 depositions and I saw that Mr. Minton testified that 14 LMT had gotten this $500,000 check from this 15 anonymous source, from Europe, I think it was 16 Europe, maybe it was -- was Switzerland, I'm 17 thinking to myself, maybe he goes around telling all 18 these people this is what happened. He certainly 19 said it under oath, so I don't know why he wouldn't 20 say it to Mr. Dandar. 21 Maybe the guy is trying to cover for taxes. 22 You remember, I gave him an exemption, Fifth 23 Amendment, because I kind of figured that is what is 24 going on. 25 But we can't have it. I don't want any more
318 1 surprises. We have to get it all straightened out 2 here. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know of any other 4 surprises, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Well, good. Okay. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Do you remember being asked if Mr. Minton had 8 given you any money? 9 A Mmm, I don't specifically, but I'm sure I was. 10 Q Do you remember being asked if Mr. Minton had 11 helped you buy a car or a house or -- or things along those 12 lines? 13 A Mmm, I don't specifically, but you can show it to 14 me. 15 Q Okay. I'll get back to that in a second. 16 So let me ask you again about your testimony. 17 In deposition you are testifying about an 18 anonymous donation to the Lisa McPherson Trust, and at that 19 point in time, your testimony is today it was absolutely 20 truthful, because I didn't know, I thought this was an 21 anonymous donation. 22 Do you remember anything about how you got that 23 money? 24 A Well, as I recall, the check, it came in a check 25 from Andreas.
319 1 Q Okay. 2 THE COURT: Let's -- let's stop right now so I 3 can identify the places now. The $500,000 anonymous 4 check to LMT from Europe, and I have a note here 5 that according to Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks said the 6 same thing on her deposition. I did not read her 7 deposition. 8 THE WITNESS: I think it was a wire transfer. 9 THE COURT: Well, it is, the same old thing 10 that happened that Mr. Dandar got, a wire transfer. 11 Right? Isn't that the same? 12 MR. FUGATE: No, he got a bank check. 13 THE COURT: Oh, he got a bank check. Okay. 14 Wire transfers. Bank check. Doesn't have a name on 15 it. Right? 16 MR. DANDAR: Correct. 17 THE COURT: Anonymous. Maybe. It certainly 18 didn't have Mr. Minton's name on it. Let's put it 19 that way. 20 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Page 141, Page 151 on the 22 deposition taken 9/18/01, and it is talked about 23 again in the last deposition, which I call the 24 so-called recant -- it wasn't recantation. We call 25 it the purge deposition. Here it is, Page 116 to
320 1 117, "Some unidentified source gave LMT $500,000 2 drawn on some bank. Bank draft from an anonymous 3 source, $500,000." 4 So twice, under oath, Mr. Minton talked about 5 this. And so all of a sudden, what Mr. Dandar said 6 Mr. Minton told him doesn't sound nearly so odd, 7 because he said he lied in the deposition under oath 8 in front of a whole bunch of lawyers. They didn't 9 apparently think it was so odd. Continue on. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Did -- do you remember testifying at some point 12 that Mr. Minton didn't contribute to the purchase of a house 13 or a car down here in Florida? 14 A Well, I don't remember what -- I remember those 15 two things coming up. And I believe I testified no, he 16 didn't buy me the car. I bought it with my own money. 17 And, no, he didn't buy me the house. I bought it 18 with my own money. And -- Ken -- 19 Q It is all right. Time out, he's just whispering 20 to me. 21 A It is really distracting. 22 Q If that distracted you, I apologize. 23 A You know, I suppose you can say that I -- you 24 know, all of the money I have been getting since 1998 is 25 from Mr. Minton. So when I said no, you know, I believe
321 1 that was the truth because I got the money out of my account 2 to pay for the car. Now, you know, Mr. Minton has been 3 paying me all along so, you know, perhaps I was -- you 4 know -- 5 THE COURT: I don't think we have to go there 6 unless, of course, he bought the house for her. But 7 as far as a car, you were working LMT -- 8 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't working at the LMT 9 at that point. 10 THE COURT: You weren't? 11 THE WITNESS: But he was paying me already. I 12 mean, Mr. Minton -- 13 THE COURT: What has he been paying you for? 14 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton has been paying me 15 since 1998. I have been working for him since 1998. 16 I have also been having a relationship with him 17 since 1998. 18 THE COURT: So he was helping you to have your 19 own funds? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 THE WITNESS: So, okay, when I said he didn't 23 buy it for me, maybe that was -- maybe I shouldn't 24 have said this, since he was the source of all my 25 funds. But what I meant by it was, you know, it was
322 1 my money and I paid for it. And that is how I felt. 2 And that is what I believe. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Well, when was this house purchased? 6 A Mmm, November of 2001 -- or 2000. Sorry. 7 Q Okay. Have you ever filed -- 8 A Or actually 1999. 9 Q Okay. Obviously if there is some title or 10 something, that would have the date on it, a deed or -- 11 A Yes, I believe it was November 25, 1999. 12 Q Okay. 13 A When it closed. 14 THE COURT: I tell you what, my court reporter 15 is reporting realtime, and since we're getting into 16 a house or whatever it is all about, it would seem 17 like a good time to take a break. Fifteen minutes. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 20 ______________________________________ 21 THE COURT: You may be seated. 22 You may continue. 23 MR. LIROT: Thank you, your Honor. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, when we left off you were describing,
323 1 I guess, the purchase of your home here in the bay area. 2 And I think you said you bought it on November 25, 1999. Is 3 that correct? 4 A That is what I said. Yeah. 5 Q Okay. What was the downpayment for that house? 6 A Mmm, approximately 50,000. 7 Q And that money was given to you by Mr. Minton and 8 put in your account, so, therefore, it was your money? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When you testified in deposition if he bought you 11 a house, by him giving you the money, putting it in your 12 account and you use your check, that is not him buying it 13 for you. Right? 14 A Well, I had money in my account. I wrote a check 15 for it. 16 Q Okay. What was the purchase price for the house? 17 A Oh -- Mmm -- perhaps 250 or 260,000. 18 Q This was November 25, 1999? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Had you declared bankruptcy at some point during 21 the '90s? 22 A In 1995. In December. Yes. 23 Q And in, I guess, 1997, you have the cat clinic? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Thereabouts?
324 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was your income in 1997, if you recall, 3 general terms? 4 A Probably maybe $60,000 or $70,000. Not more than 5 that. 6 Q Okay. How much did you make off the cats? 7 A Not very much. 8 Q So you were making a ton of money writing all 9 these declarations and decrying, I guess, what you felt were 10 the characteristics of Scientology that you were troubled 11 by? 12 A In 1997, actually, I think we had some income from 13 a project that Vaughn was working on. 14 Q What kind of project -- 15 A Which wasn't legal work. 16 Q What kind of project? 17 A It was a book about Scientology. 18 Q And how much money came in from that? 19 A As I recall, it was perhaps 3,000 a month, 20 something like that. 21 Q Okay. Whatever happened to that project? 22 A It didn't end up being completed. 23 Q How is that? Why? 24 A Mmm, well, I believe that the premise that he was 25 working on didn't really turn out to be the case, which
325 1 turned out -- which he found out during the course of 2 research. 3 Q Now, you talked about, I guess, when you met 4 Mr. Minton. Did Mr. Minton respond to you relative to an 5 E-Mail plea that you had made, an Internet plea that your 6 work with Scientology was wiping you out financially? 7 A No. Vaughn posted a lengthy message talking about 8 what was happening to us, basically said that people would 9 understand why we were not going to do the work anymore. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And Mr. Minton responded to that Internet posting. 12 Q Okay. And in that Internet posting you set forth 13 the reasons that I guess you were going to abandon what in 14 your affidavit you refer to as anti-Scientology work? 15 A Mmm, no. Vaughn wrote this thing. I didn't write 16 it. But he was kind of careful not to say that, actually. 17 Q Okay. Did you indicate your financial status in 18 that Internet posting? 19 A I'm sure he did. 20 Q He did? 21 A I'm sure he did. I don't recall it in detail, but 22 I'm sure he did. 23 Q And would the gist of that be, "Hey, we're being 24 wiped out by the Scientologists financially"? 25 A Mmm, as I recall, he basically laid out a
326 1 chronology of the events that had happened. And -- and that 2 would have included that we had to find another place to 3 live and that we were in financial trouble. 4 Q Okay. When you met Mr. Minton, did you have a 5 job? 6 A Only the sanctuary. 7 Q Okay. And -- 8 THE COURT: That is the cat sanctuary? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Okay. And did Mr. Minton -- I guess Mr. Minton 12 was paying you before the formation of the Lisa McPherson 13 Trust?@AUDIO 14 A Yes, matter of fact, he, in 1997, actually gave 15 both of us some money. Then in 1998, he began to support 16 me. 17 Q What was your job? He supported you? Or he paid 18 you? 19 A Mmm, he was supporting me in 1998. And I was -- 20 you know, it was sort of both. He was supporting me and I 21 was also doing work with him. 22 Q Okay. What kind of work were you doing with him? 23 A Mmm, I was -- became pretty much his personal 24 assistant, I guess you would say. And I was doing things -- 25 I was taking care of various aspects of the -- of his
327 1 anti-Scientology work, you know. I arranged for Jesse 2 Prince to be -- to go out to Los Angeles to work with 3 Mr. Leipold. I maintained correspondence for him with 4 various people. 5 Q Now -- 6 A Things like that. 7 Q -- so as sort of a liaison with Mr. Minton in 8 other cases involving the Church of Scientology. Is that 9 correct? 10 A No, I wouldn't characterize it that way. But 11 Mr. Minton had an interest in the wrongful death case; the 12 Wollersheim case, which is a case in California; the FACTNet 13 case, which was a case I worked on. 14 (Spelling requested by the court reporter.) 15 THE WITNESS: F-A-C-T-N-E-T case. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Can you -- I guess describe -- 18 A And -- 19 Q Describe for me -- 20 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Were there other 21 cases that you didn't tell us about? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I was going to say that he 23 had me set up Jesse Prince in Colorado working with 24 FACTNet, which was one of the cases that we were 25 doing.
328 1 THE COURT: But those were the cases Mr. Minton 2 had an interest in, the ones you told us about? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 And Mr. Minton and I went on the board of 5 FACTNet at that point. 6 THE COURT: So our record is clear here, go 7 ahead and tell us what that stands for, FACTNet. 8 THE WITNESS: Mmm, Fight Against Coercive 9 Tactics Network. FACTNet. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q What was FACTNet? 12 A It was -- well, it is, I think, still, it's sort 13 of an electronic library of information concerning 14 Scientology that was established by a man named Lawrence 15 Wollersheim. 16 Q Is it just -- does it just involve Scientology? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How did Mr. Minton get involved in that? 19 A Mmm, I think he met Mr. Wollersheim perhaps in 20 '96, I'm not sure. I think it's in his affidavit. 21 Q So Mr. Minton had already met Mr. Wollersheim 22 before he met you. Is that correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. Now, did Mr. Minton, after he found 25 you and your husband -- and I guess this is what I'll say --
329 1 at a time when you were involved in the sanctuary and I 2 guess the zoning people are coming out, did Mr. Minton ever 3 come out and visit you and your husband? 4 A He did right before Thanksgiving in November of 5 1997. 6 Q Okay. So Mr. Minton visits you in November of 7 '97. And then you buy a house in November of '99. 8 In that two years, did he buy a house for you and 9 your husband? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Where was that house located? 12 A That was on Vashon Island in Washington state. 13 Q Is that near Seattle? 14 A In Puget Sound, about half an hour from Seattle by 15 ferry. 16 Q Was that a nice house? 17 A It was wonderful. It was a house where the 18 sanctuary for the cats could be. 19 Q Okay. Did that comply with the zoning 20 regulations? 21 A Yes, it did. 22 Q All right. Now, after that, how was it that you 23 became -- you have a new house in Puget Sound, and now you 24 are buying a house in Florida. 25 In the transition there, what services did you
330 1 provide for Mr. Minton? 2 A Well, starting in early 1998 we began to have a 3 personal relationship. And -- 4 THE COURT: When was that, ma'am, again? 5 THE WITNESS: In early 1998. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 A And he also began to rely on me more and more for 8 helping him with his -- the anti-Scientology work he was 9 doing. And I was doing various things for him in that 10 capacity. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q All right. By a personal relationship, is that a 13 sexual relationship? 14 A Yes. 15 Q All right. Were you still married to Mr. Young at 16 the time? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Was Mr. Minton married at the time? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did you tell Mr. Young about this relationship? 21 A Yes, I did. In June. 22 Q Okay. June of 1998? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. And at some point I guess you left the 25 house in Puget Sound, and where did you go after that?
331 1 A I left the house in Puget Sound in June of 1999 2 and moved to an apartment in Atlanta. 3 Q Did Mr. Minton pay for that apartment? 4 A As I testified earlier, Mr. Minton was supporting 5 me from 1998 on. 6 Q Okay. Did you have a job in Atlanta of any sort? 7 A I was working for Mr. Minton. 8 Q Okay. Doing the same thing that you have 9 described to the Court? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now, when -- when did you -- I guess do you 12 still -- I guess you have a residence in Atlanta now? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q All right. Is this an apartment? Or is this a 15 house? 16 A It's a townhouse. 17 Q Okay. Who owns that townhouse? 18 A I do. 19 Q Is that in your name? 20 A It's in my name. 21 Q Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: I believe that was already 23 testified to. But -- 24 THE COURT: Sustained. Actually, I don't 25 know -- I know she said she owned one, so I assume
332 1 it was in her name. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Where did you get the money to buy that townhouse? 4 A From Mr. Minton. 5 Q Okay. And just getting back to the Florida money. 6 Did you have any money to put into a bank account in Florida 7 to buy the house that I guess you bought on November 25, 8 1999? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. How much did you have? 11 A Well, as I said, the money was from Mr. Minton. I 12 don't remember how much I had in my account at that time. 13 But probably close to $100,000. 14 Q I guess my question is, now, you say now the money 15 was from Mr. Minton. But before you said it was your money. 16 I think you said that even today. 17 A Well, that is correct. 18 Q Okay. 19 A I think I explained this to the judge. You know, 20 he has been supporting me. But I consider that when the 21 money is in my account, it's my money. 22 THE COURT: You can understand, and I'm sure 23 you'll agree with, that you can look at that -- some 24 people might say you purchased it, some people might 25 say Mr. Minton purchased it.
333 1 THE WITNESS: I understand. 2 THE COURT: I don't know. I would be saying 3 you would be lying either way. Quite frankly, I 4 think you can take either viewpoint on it. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I try to be candid what I 6 meant. 7 THE COURT: You, likewise, obviously take the 8 viewpoint you take the position you bought it 9 yourself? 10 THE WITNESS: He gave it to me and considered 11 it was mine. 12 THE COURT: He kind of gave it to you and 13 considered you could use it as you wish? 14 THE WITNESS: He said it was mine. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Okay. Was there a mortgage on that house? 18 A In Florida? 19 Q In Florida. Correct? 20 A Yes. There was. 21 Q Did Mr. Minton pay off that mortgage? 22 A No. 23 Q Is there -- 24 A Well, I mean, I paid the mortgage every month. 25 But again, it was my money. It was my account. Beginning
334 1 in January of 2000, which was a month later after the house 2 closed, I was being paid by the LMT, which was being funded 3 by Mr. Minton. 4 Q Okay. Now, I guess you testified you put a 5 $50,000 downpayment? 6 A Approximately. 7 Q You are making the mortgage payments. Is there 8 still a mortgage on the house? Do you still own that house? 9 A No. I sold that house. 10 Q Was the mortgage paid off before the sale? 11 A No. The mortgage was paid off as part of the 12 closing. 13 Q Who paid off the mortgage? 14 A Well, I sold the house and with the -- you know 15 how it works when you close a house. The mortgage gets paid 16 off. Then whatever is left, you get. 17 Q Did Mr. Minton contribute to any payoff of that 18 mortgage? 19 A No. 20 Q All right. Now, as far as the income -- did you 21 file a tax return that year? 22 A Yes. I did. 23 Q All right. I know we don't have those tax 24 returns. But did you -- do you remember -- I guess your 25 only job is working for Mr. Minton. Did you declare all of
335 1 the money that you received from Mr. Minton that year on 2 your tax return, if you recall? 3 A I believe I did -- what year? For 2000? 4 Q I guess 1999 when you bought the house? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I believe so. 8 Q All right. How about in 1998? Did you declare 9 all of the money that Mr. Minton had given to you to report 10 on your tax returns? 11 A I believe I did. 12 Q Now, for the Lisa McPherson Trust, what were your 13 responsibilities for the trust? 14 A I was the president. I was in charge of it. 15 Q Okay. Well, what were you in charge of? 16 A Well, I was in charge of, you know, taking care of 17 the staff, paying the bills, paying the staff, making sure 18 that we were providing whatever Mr. Dandar needed for the 19 case. You know, keeping the records. 20 Q What kind of records were you keeping? 21 A Well, we were keeping legal records, you know, of 22 various cases. You know, we had a big website. One of the 23 big things about the LMT was our website. There was a lot 24 of -- there were a lot of documents that were scanned and 25 put on the website. Things like that. There were a lot of
336 1 people that contacted us, and we gradually became more and 2 more of a clearinghouse for people. 3 Q A clearinghouse for what kind of people? 4 A People who had left Scientology and wanted to get 5 their money back or wanted to file a complaint, or, you 6 know, whatever. These were people that were unhappy -- 7 Q Okay. 8 A -- with -- 9 Q Did you do a mission statement for the Lisa 10 McPherson Trust? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did you author that mission statement? 13 A Well, it was actually sort of -- it was -- the 14 wording of it was worked out in the first board meeting of 15 the LMT. 16 Q But you participated? You were a writer for 17 Scientology. Right? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And you obviously have written numerous 20 declarations. You are pretty good with the English 21 language. Wouldn't you say? 22 A Thank you. 23 Q I guess that is a yes? 24 A I think it would be a matter of someone's opinion. 25 If you feel that way, I appreciate it.
337 1 Q Well, I do feel that way. 2 And you were the one posting things on the 3 website? 4 A I did post some of it. Yeah. 5 Q You are familiar with most of it, though. Aren't 6 you? 7 A Pretty much. 8 Q I mean, did you look at it, make sure nobody was 9 putting, you know, cartoons or something that wasn't really 10 part of the overall theme of the Lisa McPherson Trust? I 11 mean, were you looking at the website to make sure it was 12 meeting your standards? 13 A Lots of what went up on the website I wasn't 14 clearing before it went up. But, you know, I pretty much 15 knew what was going on it. 16 Q So you were relatively familiar with what was on 17 the website? 18 A Yes. 19 Q A lot of it was your work, wasn't it? 20 A Well, I think my declarations were posted on 21 there. I think a couple of essays I had written were on 22 there. And I was involved in interviewing a few people. 23 And those were on there. 24 So there was quite a bit of stuff from me on 25 there.
338 1 Q Now, with that, you are operating a website, you 2 are ministering to people who have come to the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust because of their personal discontent with 4 Scientology. 5 A Yes. 6 Q How many people came to you that expressed that 7 discontent? And you can correct me if I'm painting it in a 8 light that is not accurate. 9 A I will. I would say several hundred people, all 10 in all. 11 Q And basically is this kind of like the sanctuary 12 for cats? That is what you do. Right? I mean, you want to 13 help other living beings, right? 14 A That is probably a good way to put it. 15 Q And you weren't ill-intended in ministering to 16 these people? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you actually sit down and talk to some of 19 these people? 20 A Many of them. 21 Q And what general complaints did they have about 22 the Church of Scientology? 23 THE COURT: Counsel, are -- what do we care 24 about this, I mean, for this hearing? 25 MR. LIROT: I'll move along. I'll just
339 1 summarize it. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q The Lisa McPherson Trust did a heck of a lot of 4 stuff other than being involved in any aspect of the Lisa 5 McPherson case. Is that correct? 6 A Yes. That is correct. As a matter of fact, I 7 very intentionally began moving it into a different 8 direction, when it all started to get collapsed legally, to 9 try and move us away from, you know, the attention of the 10 Court. 11 Q You say collapsed legally, what was that? 12 A Well, as I was saying before, in depositions and 13 in pleadings, more and more Scientology was closing in on 14 the relationship between Mr. Dandar, Mr. Minton, myself, the 15 fact that most of the witnesses in the case were part of 16 LMT. And, you know, Mr. Dandar encouraged us to try to do 17 everything we could to -- Mmm -- separate the LMT's identity 18 from the case so that this discovery could stop. 19 Q Okay. Well, you say you put stuff on the website. 20 Did you have any kind of confidential data on the web site? 21 THE COURT: How do you do that? 22 MR. LIROT: I'm just asking. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Did you ever post anything on the website that you 25 knew to be confidential?
340 1 A Are you talking about Scientology confidential 2 materials? 3 Q No, Lisa McPherson Trust, Mr. Dandar's end of 4 the -- 5 A You mean legal confident -- confidential legally? 6 Q Yes. Yes. 7 A Not to my knowledge. 8 Q So anything related to the Lisa McPherson case 9 that went on your website was pretty much a matter of public 10 record. Is that correct? 11 A As far as I know. 12 Q Okay. And a lot of the people that worked there 13 were also involved as witnesses in some respect with the 14 Lisa McPherson case, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Jessie Prince, for one? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Jesse was your friend for a long time? 19 A Yes, he was. I'm sorry, he's no longer. 20 Q And Jesse did some work for the Lisa McPherson 21 Trust, didn't he? 22 A Well, first he was working as Mr. Dandar's 23 consultant solely. And then I think in March of 2000 24 Mr. Minton had him move over to the LMT. 25 Q Okay. And he got paid for work that he did at the
341 1 LMT. Isn't that correct? 2 A That is correct. And he also got paid even when 3 he was working for Mr. Dandar. 4 Q So just like you, Mr. Minton helped support him 5 while he was, I guess, worthy in Mr. Minton's eyes of 6 receiving some support. Wouldn't you say that is fair to 7 say? 8 A In fact, Mr. Minton has been Mr. Prince's sole 9 source of support since January of 1998. 10 Q You would not be critical of that? 11 A Absolutely not. 12 Q You are getting some of the cake from Mr. Minton. 13 Are you not? 14 A I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult me. 15 Q I'm not insulting, and I will rephrase it if you 16 feel insulted. 17 A I would prefer you to. 18 Q You -- do you think it is fair to be critical of 19 anyone else that benefit from Mr. Minton's efforts if 20 Mr. Minton deems it appropriate to in some way help them 21 out? 22 A I don't believe I was critical. I just said 23 Mr. Minton was Mr. Prince's soul source of support since 24 July of 1998. 25 Q Mr. Prince did a lot for the Lisa McPherson Trust,
342 1 isn't that correct? 2 A Yes, he did. 3 Q He worked pretty hard? 4 A He did. 5 Q And he joined you in ministering to a lot of 6 people that came by, for whatever reason, that had bad 7 experiences with Scientology. Isn't that correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q All right. What about the other people that 10 worked for the Lisa McPherson Trust that were, I guess -- 11 your affidavit -- and I'll be candid with you, your 12 affidavit makes it look like if you want to be a witness in 13 this case, go to the Lisa McPherson Trust and we'll give you 14 a handout, if you want to help us with this case. That is 15 not the way it was, was it? 16 A Well, that is pretty much the way it was, 17 Mr. Lirot. 18 Q Explain that to me. 19 A Well, I think I explained it pretty clearly in my 20 affidavit. But Mr. Minton wanted to include all of the 21 people that he had -- or I guess not all of them -- but many 22 of the people he was helping in litigation against 23 Scientology to be part of the LMT, and so that is what we 24 did. 25 THE COURT: I take it LMT was a for-profit
343 1 corporation so this was a way for him to get a 2 deduction or LMT to have a deduction on the tax 3 return or something. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, not really, your Honor. 5 The reason it was created as a for-profit 6 corporation was because we were expecting that a lot 7 of other people would be donating money to the LMT. 8 And we were advised that a for-profit corporation 9 isn't required to report the names of the people who 10 have made donations. 11 In other words, a for-profit corporation isn't 12 required to make the people who are making 13 contributions -- it's not required to be public. 14 THE COURT: Well, let me put it a little 15 different way for you. 16 If Mr. Minton is in charge, or if you are, and 17 you and he are involved, therefore, you both stand 18 to profit if the government doesn't take your money. 19 The less money the government takes, the more stays 20 in your pockets. We all understand that. 21 If Mr. Minton is giving Jesse Prince $5,000 a 22 month as a donation or what have you, he gets no tax 23 benefit from that. If Mr. Prince is being paid out 24 of LMT and he's an employee of LMT, that comes off 25 as a deduction off that corporate return. It's a
344 1 salary. Right? Or do you know that? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah. I mean, you get -- 3 THE COURT: That $60,000 a year deduction that 4 you don't get if Mr. Minton gives Jesse Prince 5 $5,000 a month and he's not an employee? 6 In other words, there is a benefit -- 7 THE WITNESS: Right, true. 8 THE COURT: -- to having these people he was 9 supporting, just as he supported you, to be part of 10 LMT. He was getting a tax benefit, not improperly, 11 by having them paid for and working for LMT? 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q What other witnesses in the Lisa McPherson case 16 worked at the LMT besides Jessie Prince, of course? 17 A Teresa Summers was named as a witness. I was at 18 the LMT. 19 Q Okay. Were you ever named as a witness in this 20 case? 21 A Yes. 22 THE COURT: That brings something to mind. I'm 23 sorry, I hate to interject, Counsel, in the middle 24 of your questioning, but sometimes things come to my 25 mind. If I don't bring them out, I'll forget.
345 1 I'm not sure what you had said during your 2 direct examination, but in my reading of stuff this 3 weekend it became pretty clear to me that you for a 4 time were a consultant -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- to Mr. Dandar or to the estate 7 or to the case. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And, so, much of the information 10 that Mr. Dandar was getting regarding the inner 11 workings of the Church, as a non-member, I suppose 12 he wouldn't know, but were coming from you, which is 13 what you were hired to do? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, in 1997, he was 15 paying us, my husband and me, to do the consulting. 16 THE COURT: But I mean, so that I understand 17 this, because -- when Mr. Dandar took on this case, 18 he really didn't have a great deal of inside 19 information about Scientology, how it worked. I 20 mean, I understand they have some of their own 21 language. He had to rely on somebody who had been 22 there to explain documents and what have you as far 23 as what they meant. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. And he was 25 getting information from a number of former
346 1 Scientologists. 2 THE COURT: Right, not saying there is anything 3 nefarious about this. He's getting information from 4 you and you were being paid for it. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, yes. In 1997 I was paid by 6 Mr. Dandar. Then after that I was paid by 7 Mr. Minton to -- 8 THE COURT: So some of the information, I take 9 it, Mr. Dandar got from -- for his complaints came 10 from you? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: And we did go through that. 13 THE WITNESS: We did. 14 THE COURT: I just wasn't sure whether we were 15 on the same page, that you were a legitimate 16 consultant/expert depending on -- well, sometimes 17 you were on the list and sometimes you were removed 18 from the list, as many of the witnesses were, but 19 you were a legitimate consultant/expert in the field 20 of Scientology that Mr. Dandar used and paid, or 21 Mr. Minton paid? 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 THE COURT: Okay. And I think you told us the 24 other day that you gave him -- you tried to give him 25 as accurate information as you could about all of
347 1 the things he wanted to know, such as what might 2 have happened in the case, how to best effect a 3 settlement, all of the things that he would ask you, 4 you would try to give him accurate information? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I would say I 6 did, with a fairly negative slant. 7 THE COURT: Okay. And that is because you were 8 not very happy with the Church at that time. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. And because my thought was 10 to help him go after Scientology, not to help 11 Scientology. 12 THE COURT: Yes. Okay. I mean, he had -- he 13 had listed the Church at all times as a defendant? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: So the Church was listed as a 16 defendant, so naturally his job from the very 17 beginning was to make sure that -- 18 THE WITNESS: To be an adversary. 19 THE COURT: -- to show to the jury that the 20 Church was responsible for the death of Lisa 21 McPherson? 22 THE WITNESS: Right. 23 THE COURT: So whatever slant it was, that was 24 the slant the lawsuit was taking. Whether he could 25 prove it or not was a different matter. But that is
348 1 where this case was headed? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: And you were assisting him, as I 4 guess any trial consultant would. I guess what I'm 5 trying to say, you weren't feeding him false 6 information, you were slanting it maybe, but you 7 weren't feeding him a bunch of false stuff. Were 8 you? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I would say 10 that some of the conclusions that were drawn in my 11 speculation were, Mmm, not based on fact. 12 THE COURT: Okay. And that could be 13 speculative. We went through that the other day. 14 But, once again, I don't think that -- I don't 15 think we're on a different page. I'm just trying to 16 make sure I'm right. Whatever it was you were 17 telling him, whether it was slanted or not, based on 18 fact, I think you said the other day they were 19 things you said you assumed could have been. 20 So when you file a complaint, sometimes you 21 file it and you see if you can prove it. Sometimes 22 people can't and they get knocked out on summary 23 judgment. 24 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 25 THE COURT: But they file a complaint with the
349 1 idea this is what I think I can prove and sometimes 2 they have to go out and see if they can. Sometimes 3 they can. Sometimes they can't. And you were 4 assisting him in that, trying to -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- lay out a complaint in the 7 fashion that it would perhaps, I suppose, bring the 8 best settlement and/or judgment that he could get 9 for his client. 10 THE WITNESS: Correct. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Ms. Brooks, I was asking you about the witnesses I 14 guess related to the Lisa McPherson case. You said -- do 15 you know for a fact you were ever identified as a witness or 16 were you ever anything other than a consultant? Do you know 17 for sure? 18 A I don't really. 19 Q Okay. And Teresa Summers. Who is Teresa Summers? 20 A She's a former Scientologist who Mr. Dandar had 21 put on the witness list that I later hired. And she did 22 very, very good work at the LMT. 23 Q All right. What kind of work did she do? 24 A She -- Mmm -- was one of the primary people who 25 dealt with people who would call in.
350 1 Q All right. So that -- that doesn't have anything 2 to do with the Lisa McPherson case, does it? 3 A No, that work didn't at all. 4 Q Did she do other things? Was she like an 5 administrative assistant? 6 A No. Her job was pretty primarily to deal with 7 those people. 8 Q All right. Was that in counseling sessions? Over 9 the phone? Or -- 10 A No, no, it was -- as I said before, it was in the 11 sense of a clearinghouse, directing people to the right 12 place for whatever they needed. 13 Q Well, can you explain that to me? I don't 14 understand that concept. What do people need? I guess 15 generally people call up and they say, "I see that you have 16 a website here," or "a trust, and I have seen your mission 17 statement." 18 You are trying to assist people who for whatever 19 reasons have some problems in their past with Scientology. 20 They call up. What do you do with them? 21 A Well, at least half of the people that contacted 22 us wanted money from Scientology. And one of the things 23 that Teresa did and Jesse did were to, you know, help them 24 write letters to whatever Scientology entity they wanted 25 money from.
351 1 THE COURT: When you say wanted money, you mean 2 wanted some of their money back? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Money they paid? Not file a 5 lawsuit like this? 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 THE COURT: But saying -- 8 THE WITNESS: Saying, "I gave them this money, 9 I want it back. How do I get it back?" 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 A And another thing that we were developing was a 12 whole range of complaints to be filed against Scientology at 13 various agencies, like Consumer Protection, with the IRS. 14 We wanted to get the Scientology tax exemption 15 revoked. And so we were trying to, you know, get people to 16 send information to the IRS, the Better Business Bureau. 17 One of the things that Teresa did was to do a lot 18 of research into what different agencies we could get people 19 to file complaints with. 20 Q Okay. And so it certainly sounds to me like there 21 is a lot going on at the Lisa McPherson Trust that doesn't 22 in any way involve the wrongful death suit of Lisa 23 McPherson. 24 A Well, in fact, I was very, very deliberately -- as 25 I said before -- trying to create an identity for the LMT
352 1 which would be separate from the wrongful death case so that 2 we could try to separate ourselves from the discovery. 3 Particularly as the discovery became more and more 4 oppressive, I guess of Mr. Minton and myself. 5 And we began to -- or I began to, you know, advise 6 Mr. Minton to stop funding the case, and it finally 7 culminated in August of 2001 with my ordering Jesse to 8 withdraw as an expert, with Mr. Minton telling Mr. Dandar 9 that he would no longer fund it, and, you know -- 10 Q Okay. I appreciate that. You are moving ahead on 11 me a little bit here. 12 Jesse Prince worked there, as well, and he 13 ministered these people -- 14 THE COURT: Let me stop you a second. 15 Mr. Howie, I think it is safe to say we'll not get 16 to your client today, so if you would like to tell 17 him he may be excused, if you think I have to excuse 18 him, you may. If he wants to stay out there, he's 19 welcome to, but he certainly can leave and so can 20 you if you want to. 21 MR. HOWIE: Thank you, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: We'll not get to him. 23 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I may remain, but I'll 24 tell him. 25 THE COURT: What was the date of that again,
353 1 ma'am, when you told Jesse to withdraw? 2 THE WITNESS: That was -- well, it would have 3 been at the very end of August or the beginning of 4 September 2001. 5 THE COURT: Okay. And I'm sorry, you said she 6 jumped ahead, so now I'll let you go back. 7 MR. LIROT: No problem, Judge. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Jesse worked there a lot. Explain this to me. 10 Your big effort then is you don't want to make it look like 11 this Lisa McPherson Trust is a big component of the Lisa 12 McPherson case. Right? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Okay. You want to -- 15 A I want -- 16 Q You have all these discovery demands, the Church 17 is hitting you with subpoenas and requests to produce and 18 all kind of stuff. Is that correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q All right. Then it's coming at a pretty furious 21 pace. Correct? 22 A Yes, it was. 23 Q How would you get these people to call up and be 24 ministered as a way to try to distance yourself from the 25 Lisa McPherson case?
354 1 A I wasn't getting them to call us. They were 2 finding out about us from the Internet or from word of 3 mouth. And they were calling. And, you know, I -- I was 4 actually a bit at odds with Mr. Minton about this, but I put 5 as much attention on that as I could and put as much 6 staff -- of the staff's attention on it as I could. 7 Q Okay. 8 A And we began to have some difference of view about 9 what the LMT should be doing, because I felt that the way we 10 should be going was for him to stop funding the case and for 11 the LMT to take on a legitimate identity. And Mr. Minton 12 wanted the LMT to continue to be primarily, you know, an 13 adjunct of the case. And so I -- you know, we became 14 divergent about what we wanted to have happen to the LMT. 15 Q But the LMT wasn't an adjunct to the case. Was 16 it? 17 A It was. 18 Q Well, how do you -- 19 A But I began to try to move it away from that. 20 Q Well, you are on the Internet. You have hundreds 21 of people, I think was your testimony, saying, "I'm not 22 happy about this --" 23 THE COURT: Counsel, why don't you just make 24 that argument to me. You are not going to change 25 this witness's testimony. Why don't you move on to
355 1 something else. 2 MR. LIROT: I'll wrap it up, Judge. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Scientology versus Fishman, or whatever that case 5 was, that had nothing to do with the Lisa McPherson Trust, 6 was it? 7 A No. That was in 1993. 8 Q Still going on today, though, isn't it? 9 A No. It was dropped in 1994. 10 Q Okay. You did some declarations in that case. 11 Right? 12 A Yes. In 1993/1994. 13 Q All right. And Scientology settled that case? 14 A They dropped their complaint. 15 Q All right. What about the Wollersheim case? I 16 guess that is what I was thinking about. You are doing a 17 lot about the Wollersheim case at the Lisa McPherson Trust. 18 Right? 19 A (No response.) 20 Q Did you do anything related to the Wollersheim 21 case with people posting E-Mails to you or were you posting 22 messages on the website about the Wollersheim case on the 23 Lisa McPherson Trust website? 24 A Not that I recall. 25 Q What about any of the other cases? I guess I'll
356 1 ask it this way. Was the Lisa McPherson Trust website 2 solely dedicated to the Lisa McPherson case? 3 A No. 4 Q All right. There was a whole lot of other stuff. 5 Wasn't there? 6 A Yes. At my direction. 7 Q Weren't people sending stuff in out of the blue? 8 Did you direct everybody that sent in stuff about other 9 cases? Was that at your direction? 10 A People weren't actually sending things in. We 11 were gathering or requesting it. 12 Q Okay. 13 A But, again -- again, I wanted the website to be 14 extremely diverse. I didn't want it to appear to be just 15 something that was related to the Lisa McPherson case. You 16 know, Scientology was accusing us of being nothing but an 17 adjunct of the Lisa McPherson case, and I was trying 18 everything I could to -- to shift our emphasis away from it 19 so that they would no longer have any justification for 20 coming after us in discovery. 21 Q And you thought by doing that, that they would 22 stop their discovery demands? 23 A Well, I hoped that by doing that we could convince 24 the Court that their discovery demands were -- were, you 25 know, not legitimate, or whatever.
357 1 Q Okay. Now, there were a lot of people that worked 2 there other than Teresa Summers and Jesse Prince, correct? 3 A Eight people at the height of it. 4 Q All right. They were witnesses in the Lisa 5 McPherson case? 6 A Mmm, let's see. Not Ingrid. Not Mark. I 7 think -- I think the three people who were actual witnesses 8 were, as I said -- or consultants, maybe I wasn't a witness. 9 Q But you are -- you are a consultant. You have 10 been a consultant on a lot of cases involving Scientology, 11 so you already have kind of a track record. Right? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And you are here at the Lisa McPherson Trust 14 operating as the president and dispatching your other 15 responsibilities. Then you have Jesse Prince, and he's 16 ministering other people and doing other things than being 17 involved in the Lisa McPherson case, and then Teresa Summers 18 is also doing the same thing. What is their -- hard to sell 19 about them not being dedicated or working on the Lisa 20 McPherson Trust because it is directly related to this case? 21 Couldn't you just tell that truth? Wouldn't that have been 22 accurate? Wouldn't that have been a good enough 23 explanation? 24 A That is what we were trying to do. 25 Q Well, why is it so hard? It was the truth.
358 1 A Mmm, you have to ask the Court that. 2 Q I'm asking you. 3 THE COURT: Well, no, Counsel, really, don't go 4 there. Because what she's saying, they were trying 5 to convince the Court -- the Court -- the Court was 6 allowing the discovery to be too liberal, so she was 7 trying to draw it away so hopefully the Court would 8 say stop taking all this discovery. And she can't 9 answer that because she couldn't get the Court to 10 stop. She doesn't know why. She would have liked 11 it to have stopped before it ever got started. 12 MR. LIROT: Understood. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q How would -- 15 THE COURT: Apparently it got started because 16 Mr. Dandar, according to her, says that Judge 17 Quesada and I were being blackmailed and that is why 18 we were letting the Church go there. 19 MR. LIROT: That is her testimony, Judge. 20 THE COURT: That is her testimony. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q All right. Now, what right did you have to tell 23 Jesse Prince to withdraw any affidavit? 24 A Well, Mr. Minton and I felt that we had the right 25 to do that because Mr. Prince was being paid by Mr. Minton.
359 1 At that point he had been paying him for a couple of years. 2 Mr. Minton was funding and -- you know, I realize this is a 3 contentious point for you, but funding and controlling the 4 case and funding and controlling the LMT. And Mr. Minton 5 had the right to tell Mr. Prince whether he wanted him 6 working on the case or working at the LMT. 7 Q Well, talking about Mr. Minton funding and 8 controlling the case, let me ask you a couple of questions 9 about that. 10 You weren't even there when the original complaint 11 was filed. Were you? You had not been hired as a 12 consultant by Mr. Dandar prior to that time? 13 A Mmm, what was the date of the original complaint? 14 Q I think it was December 5, 1997, if I'm not 15 mistaken? 16 A Yes. I had been hired by him. We were hired by 17 him in May of '97. 18 Q All right. How much input did you have into the 19 original complaint? 20 A Mmm, quite a bit. I mean, he hired us in May. 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you were hired in May 22 of -- 23 THE WITNESS: Of '97, with my husband at that 24 time. 25
360 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q So if the complaint was filed before that, you 3 wouldn't have had any input into that complaint. Right? 4 A Well, I thought you said the complaint was filed 5 in December of '97. 6 Q I'm just -- I don't know. I wasn't here. 7 A Well, I -- I'm pretty sure first complaint was 8 filed in December of '97. Or if it wasn't the first 9 complaint, maybe it was the first amended complaint. 10 Q Okay. 11 A I'm not sure. But I know Mr. Dandar hired us to 12 help him with the Scientology part of it. 13 Q Okay. And I think the judge already explored 14 that. So -- I think that is pretty well understood. 15 Now, I guess my question would be that around that 16 point in time, you formed the Lisa McPherson Trust. You 17 have got a mission statement. The mission statement just 18 doesn't say this is an adjunct of the Lisa McPherson case. 19 Does it? 20 A (Shakes head.) 21 A Then you have a couple witnesses, but you have 22 other employees that have certainly no witness 23 responsibilities who are not working on the case. Is that 24 correct? 25 A Yes.
361 1 Q Did you have them throughout? Did that grow as 2 the Lisa McPherson Trust, I guess, grew, with whatever 3 responsibilities it was undertaking? 4 A How do you mean, did what grow? 5 Q Well, I mean, you are president. The Lisa 6 McPherson Trust is formed when? 7 A It was -- well, the doors opened for business on 8 January 6, 2000. 9 Q Okay. And it's formed as a for-profit 10 corporation, I think your testimony was, so we don't have to 11 show anybody our books or anything like that. 12 A We don't have to show who donated money. 13 Q Why is that important? 14 A Because we wanted to be able to tell people that 15 if they gave money to the LMT, it wouldn't be revealed to 16 Scientology. 17 Q Why is that important? 18 A Because we were afraid that Scientology would 19 harass these people and -- you know, as I said, we were of a 20 mind that, you know, we really -- you know, we really felt 21 like that would happen. 22 Q Why? 23 A Well, partly based on our experience, because, you 24 know, I had experienced harassment. Mr. Minton was being 25 harassed. The discovery -- you know, all of these legal
362 1 actions were extremely harassive, we felt. You know, we had 2 been followed by private investigators hired by Scientology. 3 I mean, you know, I put together a big time line of -- of 4 harassment. 5 So, you know, we all felt like that was a real 6 possibility for the people that had contributed money. 7 You know, Mr. Dandar was very concerned about 8 possible harassment of people. So this definitely was part 9 of our thinking. 10 Q And -- 11 THE COURT: Just so the record can be correct 12 here, I may not be reading this stamp correctly, but 13 if I am, the complaint -- first complaint was filed 14 February 19 of 1997. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay then -- 16 MR. FUGATE: That is correct, your Honor. 17 MR. WEINBERG: And the amended -- 18 THE COURT: First amended complaint, I got the 19 date on that, the first amended complaint was filed 20 12/4/97. 21 THE WITNESS: Then that is what I'm talking 22 about, first amended complaint. 23 MR. LIROT: I apologize, Judge -- 24 THE COURT: Believe me, I have to write it all 25 down. A lot of dates to try to remember.
363 1 MR. LIROT: All right. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q So in the affidavit that you filed, I guess it is 4 Exhibit 72 of the omnibus motion, the one you did on 5 April 30, just recently, the last one -- 6 A Uh-huh? 7 Q -- the last one you did, you said that all of the 8 things I said, I think something to the effect the 9 anti-Scientology, I withdraw all my previous declarations? 10 A Where does it say that? 11 Q Well, you withdrew your prior declarations in this 12 affidavit. Is that correct? 13 A Not that I know of. 14 Q All right. Did you try to get other affidavits 15 withdrawn from other actions? 16 A Mmm, well, specifically, I asked Mr. Leipold to 17 withdraw an affidavit that he was about to file in the 18 Wollersheim case and he refused. 19 Q Why would you ask him to withdraw that? What does 20 that have to do with Lisa McPherson? 21 A It doesn't have to do with Lisa McPherson. 22 Q Why would -- 23 A That had to do with the fact that we were in the 24 process of settlement -- well, I was hoping we would be able 25 to get into settlement with Scientology once we corrected
364 1 the record in this case. 2 Q That doesn't have anything to do with perjury or 3 worried about some check or some agreement. Does it? 4 A No. It doesn't have anything to do with this 5 case. 6 Q Were you just being a real good sport? 7 THE COURT: Counselor, she already said she 8 knew when Mr. Howie went to the Church to try to 9 make a settlement, they would settle this thing 10 globally, and sure enough, Mr. Howie came back and 11 said, yes, that is exactly right, you smart thing, 12 you knew what you were talking about. So I presume 13 we're into these other things now. 14 MR. LIROT: All right. 15 THE COURT: Is that right, ma'am? 16 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor, 17 thank you. 18 THE COURT: That is one of the other things 19 that was going on. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Was the affidavit in that case truthful? Had you 22 been truthful in the statements made therein? 23 A I engaged in quite a bit of speculation. And I 24 talked to Mr. Leipold a number of times. And told him that 25 I would not be willing to testify to support that affidavit.
365 1 And that I was in the process of drying to initiate 2 settlement negotiations with Scientology. And that I 3 would -- and that I requested that he not use my affidavit. 4 Q All right. 5 A That is what happened. 6 Q And you'd filed numerous affidavits which 7 generally stated -- articulated your knowledge of the inner 8 workings of the Scientology and a number of tactics that I 9 guess you had seen and had caused you some concern. Is that 10 correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q So that is basically one of the things that 13 motivated you not to want the books and records of the Lisa 14 McPherson Trust made available to the Church, because you 15 felt that if they saw the names of the people that 16 contributed, that Scientology might not be real nice to 17 them. 18 A Correct. 19 Q Okay? And I think your words were they may get 20 harassed? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And you had personal experience that that very 23 thing does happen? 24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q It happened to you?
366 1 A That is right. 2 Q Happened to a bunch of people? 3 A Okay. 4 Q Yes? Are you the only one? 5 A Are you asking me that? 6 Q Yes. 7 A As far as I know, yes. 8 Q You are the only one? 9 A No. No. No. 10 THE COURT: She said yes. 11 A As far as I know, other people have. Yes. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q All right. Now, you'd mentioned that you had done 14 a time line. And I think on the Lisa McPherson Trust there 15 is sort of a list of what you can get off the website. Is 16 that correct? 17 A Well, the time line is a part of the website, 18 actually. You can go to the website and see it. 19 Q And I guess if you pull it up -- what is the 20 website? 21 A You mean what is its address? 22 Q LMT International? Out of the blue and somebody 23 said, "There is a great website"? 24 A www.lisatrust.net. 25 Q Okay. And --
367 1 THE COURT: It is still up and running? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q If I wanted to find out, I guess, to the best of 5 your recollection, is there an offer in there on the menu of 6 the Bob Minton -- excuse me, Bob Minton harassment time 7 line? 8 A As I just said, the harassment time line is part 9 of the website. 10 Q Does it say Scientology has a long history of 11 attacking people who speak out about the organization's 12 deception and abuse. Did you write that? 13 A I wrote the whole thing. 14 Q What kind of deception and abuse were you talking 15 about? 16 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me. I just 17 object to relevance -- 18 THE COURT: Well, I think it is relevant and 19 I'll tell you why. I don't know when we'll get to 20 it, but I think it is relevant because it is kind of 21 amazing, I suppose, this woman has all this belief 22 and all of a sudden she's sort of reversed courses 23 here. And I expect we need to know why that was and 24 what happened. 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor?
368 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: I would like to clarify what you 3 just said. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: I haven't said I reversed 6 anything except for my desire to be a part of 7 litigation and my desire to be involved in 8 litigation against Scientology that requires that 9 I -- or causes me to feel that I'm in a position in 10 which I have to do things that are going to get me 11 in trouble with the Court. 12 THE COURT: Well, and I think in fairness, too, 13 you and Mr. Minton would like to just get out of 14 this stuff and go about and live a happy life 15 together and not be involved with Scientology and 16 their depositions and all this sort of stuff if you 17 could. 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, I would like it more than 19 anything. 20 THE COURT: So whether it is true or whether it 21 isn't true, you just don't want to be in the 22 business anymore. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't want to be in the 24 business anymore at all. But I think Mr. Lirot is 25 trying to get on the record that I feel that people
369 1 have been harassed or whatever -- you know, I'm not 2 denying that. 3 MR. LIROT: Okay. Well, I have a copy here of 4 the time line. I'll present that to opposing 5 counsel -- 6 THE COURT: So to that extent, Mr. Fugate, I 7 think there is relevance here that I'll let him 8 explore. And this is a motion to dismiss the whole 9 complaint, so I think we have to let that in. 10 MR. FUGATE: All right, Judge. 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may approach the 12 witness? 13 THE COURT: You may. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q I want to hand you a document which was, I guess 16 the word is, downloaded from the Lisa McPherson website. 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q Does that look to you to be what is titled "A Time 19 Line of Scientology's Harassment of Robert S. Minton and 20 Colleagues"? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. FUGATE: Is he asking her if that is 23 accurate, or if that is what it looks to be 24 entitled? Because it is 52 pages long. 25 THE COURT: He wanted to know if that was the
370 1 time line. He was getting her to identify it. I 2 don't think he asked yet whether it was accurate. 3 She said she wrote it. 4 What did you ask her to do? 5 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll get there. 6 THE COURT: Do you want to introduce it? 7 MR. LIROT: I want to introduce it, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Is that what you wrote, ma'am, and 9 published on the Internet. 10 MR. FUGATE: I do believe so, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Is it accurate? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, it looks accurate to me on 13 a glance. 14 THE COURT: Sounds good enough to me. 15 Introduce it. 16 MR. LIROT: All right. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, was the question is 18 it authentic? Is that what you are asking? 19 THE COURT: Yes. I think that is what he was 20 asking. Is that document -- is that the thing that 21 she wrote? 22 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 23 THE COURT: That was posted on this Lisa 24 McPherson Internet. 25 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge.
371 1 THE WITNESS: There are some notes made on it 2 that aren't mine. 3 MR. LIROT: Okay. Well, to the extent those 4 are work product, we would like to preserve that 5 right. I don't know what notes would be on it. I 6 apologize if I haven't given you a clean copy. I'll 7 make sure whatever copy goes to the Court is clean. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. LIROT: I'll take a look at that when I 10 make sure there is nothing that would be deemed as 11 any kind of waiver included in that document. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Would it be possible at a break 13 that Ms. Brooks could flip through the 52 pages and 14 make sure that she thinks it is an authentic copy? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, just generally, what does this time 19 line describe? 20 A Well, this time line -- I put this thing together 21 and had intended for it to be used as the basis of a 22 pleading, or a -- a motion that I was intending Mr. Howie, 23 and probably my own attorney, Mr. McGowan, would file in 24 this case to try to educate the Court in a different 25 direction and let us out of this discovery. That was the
372 1 purpose for it, was to try to show the Court that the real 2 reason why we were being hit with all this discovery was 3 just purely to harass us. And I was trying to put it in the 4 context that the Court would, hopefully, believe me, and let 5 us go. 6 By this time both of us were feeling, Mmm, pretty 7 much like we were being held hostage by Mr. Dandar to this 8 case. In fact, I guess I would have to say I was feeling 9 much more that way, that Mr. Minton was being held hostage. 10 Q Okay. So, basically, you put this all together 11 because you felt Mr. Dandar had you hostage to this? That 12 is your testimony? 13 A That is not actually what I just said. What I 14 said was I put it together so that it could form a basis of 15 a motion that I was hoping Mr. Howie and Mr. McGowan would 16 be able to file with the Court that would convince the Court 17 that our discovery should be -- Mmm -- that the 18 Scientology's attempts to get discovery into us would be 19 stopped. 20 Q Was this -- 21 A Because -- 22 Q Was it prepared to sue Scientology for this what 23 appears to be a pretty lengthy pattern -- 24 A No. 25 Q -- of -- not at all?
373 1 A No. Not at all. 2 Q So it was just so you could get out of this case? 3 A Absolutely. 4 Q And when did you start working on this? 5 THE COURT: Not get out of the case. Get out 6 of the discovery. 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 8 THE COURT: Because at that point you all 9 weren't in this case. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, we aren't still in this 11 case. 12 THE COURT: Right, but I think there has been a 13 motion now to add Mr. Minton as a party, and I think 14 I have allowed that. 15 THE WITNESS: In the counterclaim. 16 THE COURT: Well, I mean, that is the 17 counterclaim to this case. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay, well -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: It just hadn't been finalized 20 yet. 21 THE COURT: Right. 22 THE WITNESS: But -- 23 THE COURT: But I am right, I did grant you all 24 leave to amend to add Mr. Minton as a party to the 25 counterclaim.
374 1 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 2 THE COURT: But at the time that you were 3 writing this on the Internet and the time these 4 negotiations were going on, apparently, trying to 5 settle this, Mr. Minton had not been made a party to 6 the counterclaim, but the counterclaim existed. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. This -- I was writing 8 this -- I started writing this probably -- Mmm -- 9 when did I start this? I started this -- Mmm, 10 sometime in probably 2000. 11 THE COURT: Okay, I'm going to take a little 12 break. We'll either get this in or we'll not. She 13 can't really sit up on the stand and start thumbing 14 through pages. I couldn't do it, you can't do it. 15 It is late in the day, but we'll do it anyway. 16 We'll take ten minutes. You look through this 17 and see if you think that is an accurate thing you 18 got off the Internet. I don't care if you do it 19 here or whatever, but we'll take ten and let's 20 prepare to go a little late tonight. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, is it possible for me 22 to talk to my attorney at all? 23 THE COURT: Sure. Take that with you, if you 24 want to. I presume this thing just came off the 25 Internet. My guess is that this was a pushed copy
375 1 and the copies came out. So I don't know if it's 2 any big deal, but in fairness, I think she ought to 3 be able to look at it. 4 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 5 _____________________________________ 6 THE COURT: You may continue. 7 Did you have time to read that? 8 THE WITNESS: I did, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Was that the Internet posting? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, as far as I can tell. I 11 didn't compare it to the Internet, but I believe it 12 is. 13 THE COURT: Well, counsel, you tell us. Is 14 this something where you pushed a button and it said 15 "print" and it came off the Internet? 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, I -- like yourself, I'm not 17 much of a button-pusher with computers. But as I 18 understand it, you pushed the button, that is what 19 came out. That document wasn't tampered with. 20 THE COURT: I'll let you introduce it. But I 21 want a clean copy, not something that has notes on 22 it. 23 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. I'll supplement 24 that. 25 THE COURT: And what -- what do we have here?
376 1 Plaintiff's Exhibit what? 2 THE CLERK: 4. 3 THE COURT: 4? Okay. You want to hand me your 4 copy, and I'll just take that as my copy, and 5 I'll -- I don't care about the notes. Are there any 6 notes on here I shouldn't read or anything like 7 that? 8 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, it was 9 underlinings. 10 MR. FUGATE: There were no notes on mine. 11 THE COURT: I don't care about underlining. 12 Everybody makes underlining. 13 You will substitute a clean copy tomorrow for 14 the clerk, right? 15 MR. LIROT: I will. And I can make sure 16 counsel gets a copy of whatever we run off the 17 Internet, so -- make sure everybody is on the same 18 page. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DANDAR: That is Exhibit 4, Judge, for the 21 defense? 22 THE COURT: Exhibit 4 of the plaintiff. 23 MR. DANDAR: Of the plaintiff. 24 THE COURT: Go on ahead. 25 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge.
377 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Anything in the time line, so to speak, that is 3 inaccurate? 4 A Well, I would say it may have some editorializing 5 by me to make my point. But I made it as accurate as I 6 could. 7 Q So when it says something about the Scientologists 8 picketing outside Mr. Minton's daughter's house, or 9 something like that, that is accurate, but what you might 10 have said about it might have been your own editorialization 11 along those lines? 12 A Yes. It was accurate, to the best of my 13 knowledge. 14 Q What is the time frame? Do you remember what the 15 time frame is, where we begin and where we end there? 16 It starts early 1997, isn't that correct? 17 A Well, there is one entry for 1996. But it pretty 18 much starts in '97. And then it goes through August of 19 2001. But, yeah. 20 Q Okay. Did more happen since August of 2001? 21 A Well, primarily what has happened since then is 22 further discovery. 23 Q Okay. Now, absent your editorializing dates and 24 events and descriptions of those events, is that document 25 true and accurate?
378 1 A To the best of my knowledge. 2 Q Okay. Now -- 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 Are you done with that document? 6 MR. LIROT: I'm done with that document, ma'am. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Do you have a copy of your affidavit, the 10 April 3rd, I believe, it is? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q And on the cover is a notice of filing, right? Or 13 is that just the affidavit? 14 A No, it is notice of filing. 15 THE COURT: Let's make sure we have the same 16 affidavit. Mine shows a date of -- at least what I 17 presume to be a date, the 29th of April. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. But the notice of filing is 19 the 30th. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q I think -- 22 THE COURT: You are right. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Now, I think your testimony was yesterday -- or 25 Friday, you had prepared that document?
379 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you type it up yourself? 3 A Yes. I did. 4 Q All right. Did you provide that to your counsel? 5 A Yes. 6 Q I'm not going to ask you anything that you 7 conversed about. But did you go over the contents of that 8 affidavit with your counsel? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Q Did you go over that affidavit with counsel for 11 the Church of Scientology? 12 A Mmm, with one counsel for them. 13 Q Okay. Was your counsel present? 14 A Not for -- for a couple of the times, they 15 weren't. 16 Q A couple of the times? So, basically, that 17 affidavit is written by you but with the help of the Church 18 of Scientology? 19 A No. 20 Q Their counsel was present while you were working 21 on that affidavit. Is that correct? 22 A Mmm, for a little bit. Yes. 23 Q Okay. 24 THE COURT: Which lawyer -- which lawyer from 25 Scientology was present?
380 1 THE WITNESS: Monique Yingling. 2 (Spelling requested by the court reporter.) 3 THE WITNESS: Y-I-N-G-L-I-N-G. 4 THE COURT: She's not known to me. So I take 5 it she's just another one of the Church's lawyers 6 that is involved in some -- I don't know if she's 7 involved in this case. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: She's not involved in this 9 case. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q But you know Ms. Yingling to be a long-term 12 counsel for the church? 13 A Yes. 14 Q She doesn't work with the estate, does she? 15 A The estate? 16 Q Of Lisa McPherson? 17 A No. 18 Q No chance. Right? 19 A Not that I know of. 20 Q Okay. And she's not represented you in any prior 21 action, is that correct? 22 A No. 23 Q And she has not represented Mr. Minton in any 24 prior action? 25 A No.
381 1 Q Why are you working with her? 2 A Mmm, well, I specifically asked her for some help 3 on this. Mr. McGowan and I -- my attorney and I -- had been 4 given some documents by the Church of Scientology. And I 5 wanted to make sure that my affidavit was very complete. 6 And so I asked her if there was any other 7 documents that I was not aware of. 8 Basically, the situation that I found myself in 9 was that, you know, Mr. Dandar obviously wouldn't want to be 10 helping me very much right now. Okay? And -- 11 Q Well -- well -- I'm sorry, finish your answer. 12 A Okay. And I didn't have anywhere else to go for a 13 repository of my depositions or my -- or any of the motions 14 or anything else that had happened in the case. 15 So I -- well, Mr. McGowan and I both asked counsel 16 for Scientology if they would provide us with relevant 17 documents. And they agreed to do so. 18 Q Okay. I don't want to sound impolite, but is that 19 because you couldn't remember how many lies you told? 20 A Mmm, yes. Actually, it's because I wasn't sure of 21 the dates, and I wasn't sure of which depositions were 22 involved, and I wanted to make sure that my recantation was 23 complete. And my attorney advised that we asked them for 24 the documents that would be relevant. 25 Q Those are all on your website?
382 1 A No. They are not. 2 Q All your depositions are on the website, aren't 3 they? 4 A No. 5 Q Not at all? 6 A I don't think so. 7 Q Okay. 8 A Certainly our website doesn't have a full record 9 of the -- of the case. 10 Q Well, how many depositions have you taken in -- 11 related to Lisa McPherson and the Church of Scientology? 12 THE COURT: Maybe the word "taken" is 13 incorrect. It is "given." How many depositions did 14 she give -- 15 MR. LIROT: Thank you, judge. 16 THE COURT: -- regarding this case, if you 17 know. 18 A Oh, well, regarding this case and the breach case, 19 both. I was concerned about both cases. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Okay. 22 A And I think maybe seven or eight. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Even more, perhaps. 25 Q So you have given seven or eight depositions. And
383 1 I guess you lied -- I don't know what else to say, maybe 2 I'll just say misrepresented -- you misrepresented the 3 agreement and -- 4 THE COURT: She said she committed perjury. So 5 I suppose you could call it perjurious testimony. 6 MR. LIROT: That works for me, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q You engaged in perjurious testimony involving an 9 agreement and a check, and you had to meet with Ms. Yingling 10 to make sure you had that right across the board? 11 A Well, actually, if you have seen my recantation 12 affidavit -- 13 Q I saw both of them. Yes. 14 A -- there are a few other things that I included. 15 And as the Judge pointed out earlier, if you are going to 16 recant, you better make sure it is complete. 17 Q You didn't get it done, did you? 18 A And -- what? 19 Q You didn't get it all? 20 A What do you mean? 21 Q Apparently, there were other things that the Judge 22 noted today that you didn't quite get on there right. 23 A Actually, there was one issue that she and I 24 discussed. And she understood why it could have been that 25 it was left out.
384 1 Q Okay. I'm sure that is up to the Judge. 2 THE WITNESS: Did you understand that, Judge? 3 THE COURT: The record will speak for itself. 4 And we'll discuss that at a later time. 5 I was just interested, when I read this last 6 night, because as I said, I tried to make it clear, 7 I thought what Mr. Dandar was expressing up before 8 Judge Baird was somewhat unbelievable, somewhat just 9 unimaginable for me. 10 And once I read about it in a deposition, the 11 same thing being said by Mr. Minton about another 12 half-a-million-dollar anonymous contribution, well, 13 I thought, well, perhaps that is what he told 14 Mr. Dandar. In other words, that is what this 15 hearing is all about. 16 But I kind of brought myself back to neutral. 17 Let's put it that way. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Just to explore that, that is not in your second 21 affidavit -- 22 THE COURT: But I did suggest that -- I did 23 suggest the fact that money was given by Mr. Minton, 24 as opposed to an anonymous donor, had not been 25 corrected, to the best of my knowledge, on either
385 1 his affidavit or Ms. Brooks'. 2 I don't know what Ms. Brooks knew about it. 3 But I read Mr. Minton's deposition and I knew that 4 he had said, under oath, that was an anonymous 5 $500,000. 6 It would seem to me that Mr. Minton obviously 7 knows this, and if that is not accurate, he probably 8 would do well to correct that. And so would 9 Ms. Brooks if, in fact, she testified about it. 10 I thought that I had seen where Mr. Minton said 11 it was in her deposition. I did not read her 12 deposition. There are only so many hours in a day. 13 MR. LIROT: Agreed. 14 THE COURT: And I spent a lot of time this 15 weekend reading little bitty lines. Those little 16 four pages to a page. They are all right, but when 17 you are reading page after page, they are awfully 18 small. 19 That was a little editorialization. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Just to fill in the blanks, that is in your 22 deposition, though, about donations to the Lisa McPherson 23 Trust from other sources? 24 MR. FUGATE: Which deposition, so I can look at 25 it?
386 1 MR. LIROT: I think we have already established 2 that, Judge. 3 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if we have or 4 not. I just made a comment that Mr. Minton 5 apparently -- because of a note that I made that 6 indicated in his deposition that it was in 7 Ms. Brooks' deposition, I don't know because I have 8 not read all of hers. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 10 THE WITNESS: But -- but it was in an 11 August 15, 2001 deposition. I already said that. 12 THE COURT: Oh. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q You recall that? 15 A Yes. I do. 16 Q But you didn't fix that in your affidavit, did 17 you? 18 A Well, as the Judge and I discussed, I had only -- 19 I only later found out that that was incorrect. 20 Q But you knew about it on August -- or, excuse me, 21 April 29, a couple days ago, when you signed this one. 22 Right? 23 A Yes. I did. 24 Q And you left it out, didn't you? 25 A That is why the Judge suggested I should add it.
387 1 But I explained -- 2 Q No, the Judge spotted the same thing. You left it 3 out to make Mr. Dandar look a little bit strange. But when 4 it happens all of the time, it doesn't look as bad for 5 Mr. Dandar, does it? 6 MR. FUGATE: I'll object to that as 7 argumentative. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. I suppose the thing 9 that would have to do in this case is was there ever 10 any discussion between you and any representative of 11 the Church of Scientology regarding that, suggesting 12 you don't have to -- you don't have to clear that 13 up? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. That would be relevant 16 to this case. Otherwise, it just needs to be 17 cleared up because it is something in this record 18 that is false. 19 I don't mean to cut you off from exploring that 20 if you want to explore that, but that would be 21 important to me in this matter. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And I think you were asked in there anything that 24 is false, in your -- 25 A I'm sorry?
388 1 Q In your April 29th recanting affidavit, is there 2 anything in there that is false? 3 A No. 4 Q Now, you have written declarations and affidavits 5 quite often, haven't you? 6 THE COURT: Asked and answered. 7 MR. LIROT: Okay. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Why would you need help on this one? 10 A Mmm, I think I already said, I didn't need help 11 writing it. I just needed help making sure I had documents 12 that I needed. And I believe this may be incorrect, but I 13 believe that the reason that counsel was present at all 14 times was to make sure that there was no -- there could be 15 no question of impropriety in the meetings that I had. 16 Q Okay. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I thought you said you 18 had met with Ms. Yingling on a couple of occasions 19 when your lawyer wasn't there. 20 THE WITNESS: What I'm saying, your Honor, is I 21 think the purpose of her being there was to make 22 sure that there was an attorney present. 23 THE COURT: I see. So who else was present 24 beside her? 25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rinder.
389 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Mr. Rinder has given you affidavits previously, 3 hasn't he? 4 A What do you mean? 5 Q Haven't you been presented with affidavits by the 6 Church, trying to get you to back off the testimony in other 7 cases? 8 A Oh, no. 9 MR. FUGATE: Just objection to time frame. 10 THE COURT: I think you better lay a predicate, 11 if you can. 12 MR. LIROT: Judge, could I approach the 13 witness? 14 THE COURT: You can. You may. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I have an extra copy for the 16 Court. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 A Yes, this wasn't part of a case. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q I haven't asked any questions yet. 21 A Oh. Okay, sir. 22 Q That is on the Lisa McPherson Trust website, isn't 23 it the way to get this document? Do you recognize it? 24 A I do recognize it. It was from 1994. Yeah. 25 Q Okay. And is this available on the Lisa McPherson
390 1 Trust website under the description: "Declaration of Stacy 2 Young dated December 14, 1994. Two high-level 3 Scientology --" I guess "-- Rinder and Mike Sutter, offer to 4 pay Stacy, and her husband at the time, Robert Vaughn, for 5 their silence. When they refused, Scientology starts the 6 fear game attacks, et cetera. They do a noisy investigation 7 and smear their names." 8 Did you write that? 9 A No. I actually wasn't aware that this was on the 10 website. But I did direct others to put all my declarations 11 on the website. 12 Q Okay. 13 A So this is one of my declarations, so -- 14 Q And I think your testimony was you haven't backed 15 off any of those declarations. You just don't like what you 16 have done in the Lisa McPherson case. You just want to wrap 17 this up. Right? 18 A I'm backing off of all of the declarations that I 19 have made. 20 Q Because they're all -- every word is untrue? 21 A No. Because I want to be out of this 22 anti-Scientology work altogether. So I would prefer that 23 none of my declarations continue to be used. 24 Q Okay. 25 THE COURT: Is this false, ma'am? Where were
391 1 you reading from? Paragraph 10? 2 THE WITNESS: No. He's reading an 3 introduction, your Honor, that doesn't show on this. 4 MR. LIROT: It's a description on the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust website. And if she didn't write 6 it, I guess I won't ask her about that. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q But this declaration speaks for itself. Right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q I guess in Paragraph 3 you described that you are 11 over 18 years of age. 12 Let me just ask you this. Let me just establish. 13 This is a declaration dated December 14, 1994. Correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And do you recall what case you prepared this 16 declaration for? 17 A As I said, I don't believe I prepared this for a 18 case. I believe I prepared it because there was a 19 declaration that I was shown by Mr. Rinder which gave a 20 different account of this experience. And I believe -- 21 Q And so -- 22 A And I believe -- in fact I know I wrote this 23 declaration to respond to that. And -- 24 Q Okay, so -- 25 A And I don't know that it was ever filed in any
392 1 case. 2 Q Well, where would Mr. Rinder's declaration, that 3 this is in response to, have been filed? 4 A I don't know that it was ever filed, either. I 5 got it from Mr. Leipold, I believe. 6 Q And do you have -- 7 A I don't know. 8 Q Do you have any knowledge how Mr. Leipold would 9 have gotten Mr. Rinder's declaration if it wasn't filed in a 10 lawsuit? 11 A I don't remember. But I just remember there being 12 some question about whether it was actually ever filed and, 13 therefore, perhaps mine would never be filed, either. I'm 14 not sure. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach the witness? 16 I don't have any extra copies of this. 17 THE COURT: Well, this -- are you introducing 18 this? 19 MR. LIROT: I would like to. 20 THE COURT: Is this true, ma'am? This is your 21 declaration -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 23 MR. FUGATE: It's not signed. That is the only 24 thing I note. 25 THE COURT: Well, she said it's her
393 1 declaration. It is on the Internet. You can't sign 2 things on the Internet. 3 A I did write it. I was pretty angry when I wrote 4 it. But I didn't say anything that I thought was false. 5 MR. LIROT: Okay. 6 THE COURT: Are you introducing this as your 7 Number 5? 8 MR. LIROT: Yes, I am, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Did you give a copy to 10 the clerk? 11 MR. LIROT: I will give the clerk my copy. 12 I'll make sure -- 13 THE COURT: One of the things we need to do in 14 these hearings, if we are going to use and show 15 things to people, we really need to have them 16 marked. Hopefully, we'll do better when -- if we 17 get to trial. They need to be marked by the clerk. 18 When somebody is shown something, it needs to be 19 identified by a number so we know -- or somebody 20 knows, if this case is ever appealed -- what in the 21 world everybody is talking about. 22 So this would be Number 5, I take it. 23 THE CLERK: Yes, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Plaintiff's Number 5. And that 25 is -- for your information, Ms. Brooks, that is what
394 1 we're talking about here. This is going to be 2 Plaintiff's Number 5, a declaration of yours 3 executed, it says, in Seattle, Washington on the 4 14th of December, 1994. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Ms. Young, let me draw your attention to some of 8 the paragraphs in this. 9 This is dated December 14, 1994. Correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And I guess the original you signed under penalty 12 of perjury. Is that correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q All right. In Paragraph 3, I think that you talk 15 about -- or I guess Paragraph 2 you talked about the Sea 16 Org. And I guess your testimony last week was the Sea Org 17 is some nebulous entity? 18 A No, I said it was an unincorporated entity, as I 19 recalled. I think I described it pretty much as I described 20 it here. 21 Q I think your testimony was that it was amorphous? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What did you mean by that? 24 A That it doesn't have any corporate shape. 25 Q Okay. Does it have a head or a leader?
395 1 A No. 2 Q There is no leader of the Sea Org? 3 A No. 4 Q Everybody is on equal terms, and any member of the 5 Sea Org can make a decision on behalf of the Sea Org? 6 A No. That is not the case. People who are in the 7 Sea Org have a Sea Org rank and they also have a particular 8 post. 9 And the post that they hold is what gives them 10 their authority or lack of authority, not their rank in the 11 Sea Org. 12 THE COURT: Who would be, I guess -- I guess 13 you have some sort of structure. Would the posts 14 get higher? Is there somebody at the top? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, there is a hierarchy. It is 16 very hierarchal. But the Sea Org is not the 17 hierarchy. 18 In other words -- in other words, it is based 19 on a Navy system. A person might have a rank 20 because they've been in the Sea Org for 20 or 25 21 years. And they might have achieved a rank in the 22 Sea Org as, say, warrant officer. But their actual 23 post could be -- Mmm -- Mmm, for example, a 24 receptionist. And so they don't have any authority 25 over anyone else, but they still have a rank as a
396 1 long-term Sea Org member as a warrant officer. So 2 they may have a higher rank in the Sea Org than 3 someone by post. 4 THE COURT: Who is at the top of the Sea Org? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, this is what the whole 6 issue was about David Miscavige. There is not 7 really any organizational chart for the Sea Org. 8 And especially now where people derive their 9 authority is from what their post is, not what 10 their -- what they are in the Sea Org. I don't know 11 if that makes sense but -- 12 THE COURT: Looking at your Paragraph 1, 13 "Unbeknownst to the outside world, even to lower 14 level Scientologists, the head of the Sea Org and of 15 Scientology, David Miscavige," then it goes on. 16 THE WITNESS: It goes on. 17 THE COURT: So I assume, at least as to this 18 declaration, you were suggesting that David 19 Miscavige would have been at the top of the Sea Org, 20 as well as other things. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, I have used that 22 term, "head of the Sea Org," probably many times. 23 But, you know, I worked with -- worked with 24 Miscavige. And -- and by this time, one of the 25 issues that were in some of the litigation I was
397 1 working on was, you know, the role of the Sea Org 2 and the role of the -- the role of the corporations. 3 In other words, the alter egos -- there was an alter 4 ego theory being worked on at that time. 5 And as part -- as part of the crafting of the 6 alter ego theory in the cases I was working on, we 7 were already, as early as '94, calling Mr. Miscavige 8 the head of the Sea Org so we could attempt to set 9 aside the corporate structure. 10 Does that make sense? 11 THE COURT: Sort of. 12 THE WITNESS: Well -- 13 THE COURT: I don't think there is any dispute 14 about this that the highest ranking person in the 15 Church of Scientology is Mr. Miscavige. 16 THE WITNESS: Mr. Miscavige. Yes. 17 THE COURT: So whatever the hierarchy is, just 18 as in any church, you have an ultimate authority, 19 the highest person. The Pope, for example, in the 20 Catholic church -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: -- Mr. Miscavige would occupy that 23 post -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: -- in the Church of Scientology.
398 1 THE WITNESS: Right. And that post is chairman 2 of the board of RTC, because RTC runs everything. 3 And from that position, he can do whatever he 4 wants. He has a lot of authority. 5 He was the chairman of the board of a different 6 corporation before the RTC was established. And 7 from the disposition as chairman of the board of 8 that other corporation, he also had that same power. 9 THE COURT: And as we discussed the other day 10 in court with you under oath, I believe what you 11 said to me is when you told Mr. Dandar about the 12 possibility that the activities at the Church 13 regarding -- well, not the Church, at the hotel 14 involving Lisa McPherson, that you thought it was 15 possible that those things had been reported up the 16 line to David Miscavige. That was possible? 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: All right. And I take it those 19 people -- maybe I'm wrong about this, but those 20 workers, those people that were taking care of Lisa 21 McPherson, those were Sea Org members? 22 THE WITNESS: I would assume so. 23 THE COURT: And -- and Kartuzinski was a Sea 24 Org member at that time? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
399 1 THE COURT: So all of the people who were -- 2 maybe I'm wrong, but I would just assume, from what 3 I have read, the people that were there, they were 4 directed to go do this and we'll set up posts as to 5 who will take care of Lisa during these hours and 6 what have you, those were Sea Org members being told 7 by their superior, whether it was in a post or 8 whether it was in a position, what to do? 9 THE WITNESS: I would assume so. Because -- 10 THE COURT: And after 17 days and no 11 appreciable change, as I said, you indicated the 12 other day under oath there was a possibility, which 13 you expressed to Mr. Dandar, that Mr. Miscavige may 14 have been informed of this? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach the witness? 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q I want to hand you a photograph. And I'm also 20 going to hand you what looks to be letterhead, or at least 21 some message, "Church of Scientology International, Los 22 Angeles." 23 And I'm just going to ask you to draw your 24 attention to the last page of that typed document, as 25 opposed to the photograph.
400 1 THE COURT: What is this? Is this Number 6? 2 MR. LIROT: This will be Number 6 and Number 7, 3 Judge. 4 MR. FUGATE: Which is what? 5 MR. LIROT: Number 6 will be the photograph. 6 Number 7 will be the composite typewritten exhibit. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Drawing your attention to Composite Exhibit Number 9 7 -- 10 THE COURT: Do I have this? 11 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. We don't have many 12 copies here. 13 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about the 14 document? Or the picture? 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q The document is Number 7. The picture is Number 17 6. 18 THE COURT: Please do me a favor. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll tell you what, I'll 20 give you -- do we have another copy of this? 21 THE COURT: Do me a favor, when you have this 22 much stuff, I'm trying to keep up with it, for 23 heaven sakes, prepare a copy for the Court. 24 This is a hearing for me to make decisions, you 25 know. So I need to have copies.
401 1 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I can approach the bench. 2 THE COURT: So how can I possibly remember all 3 this? 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, this is what I asked to be 5 introduced as Composite Exhibit Number 7. 6 THE COURT: Does the clerk have one? 7 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. I'll make sure a 8 correct copy gets to the clerk. 9 THE COURT: You guys got to do better. 10 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Composite Exhibit Number 7 shows a breakdown -- I 14 guess the Sea Org is some amorphous entity in the Church of 15 Scientology. 16 What -- in your declaration, you talk about it -- 17 having at least some rudimentary knowledge of the Sea Org. 18 What is it you understand it to do? 19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me, while we're 20 on the subject of the documents, we provided all of 21 the exhibits that I knew that we were going to use 22 in this hearing. 23 And it's difficult for me to try to read a 24 document that I haven't seen before to determine 25 whether or not I want to object, because somewhat
402 1 like the Court just went through with Ms. Brooks, I 2 have an objection to exactly how the Sea Org versus 3 staff is. 4 But this is difficult to try to listen to what 5 she's saying, what the questions are, and read the 6 document. 7 THE COURT: I understand that. And if it 8 were -- if it were a trial or something like that, I 9 would require them to give it to you in advance. 10 Obviously, as you know, this is a somewhat unusual 11 hearing. And I have no idea when you are getting 12 these documents. 13 If you get these documents in advance, please 14 provide them. I'm assuming for the fact they don't 15 have one for the clerk and they don't have one for 16 me, that perhaps this didn't come to their attention 17 until fairly recently, or we would hope he would 18 have copies for everybody. So -- 19 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 20 MR. FUGATE: I would just like to, before it is 21 admitted into evidence, reserve the right to object 22 to it, because I haven't even read it. 23 THE COURT: Yes. Sure. 24 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 25 THE COURT: I'll tell you what we'll do. Just
403 1 so that the record can -- what we're going to do -- 2 it is going to be marked for the record, in any 3 event, whether it is introduced or whether it isn't. 4 What I'll do is allow it to be -- if it can be 5 authenticated, I'll allow it to be introduced. And 6 then if you -- after having a chance to read it, if 7 you want to make some argument why it shouldn't be, 8 I'll allow you to make a motion to remove it. 9 MR. FUGATE: The website posting was one of the 10 things that started this, because I was trying to 11 read it and listen to the questions. And it is hard 12 to do that. 13 THE COURT: I know that. 14 MR. FUGATE: And this, I don't know if she can 15 authenticate it. 16 THE COURT: What you'll have to do with that 17 website is take it home and read it tonight. 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to. 19 THE COURT: I am sure you are. Me, too. We 20 are going to try to read this. And it will be a 21 nice evening of reading for us. 22 MR. FUGATE: Whenever that starts. 23 THE COURT: Whenever we get around to that. 24 I'll try to finish Mr. Minton's deposition because I 25 still have one more long one to go.
404 1 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, as I understand it -- and 3 this isn't based on any personal knowledge -- that 4 document was apparently presented to the Internal 5 Revenue Service in a proceeding at some point. 6 And I guess it is part of a court record 7 involving the Church's -- 8 THE COURT: Well, we can't just have that, 9 counsel. 10 MR. LIROT: I'll verify it. 11 THE COURT: You can't just say, "I think this 12 is --" 13 MR. LIROT: I'll get it verified, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: You have to get it authenticated. 15 Is this your understanding of the Sea Org, as 16 best you know it? You had a chance to read it? 17 THE WITNESS: I haven't, your Honor. 18 MR. FUGATE: I guess my question is can she 19 authenticate it, even? 20 THE COURT: Right. I don't know what CSI PROD 21 means. Is CSI some entity within the Church? 22 MR. DANDAR: The mother church. 23 THE COURT: Well, then it would seem this comes 24 straight from the Church. 25 MR. MOXON: No. No, your Honor. She can't --
405 1 you can ask her if she can authenticate the 2 document. I don't know where this thing comes from. 3 MR. DANDAR: The attorneys can authenticate it. 4 MR. LIROT: We'll find out what file that came 5 from and we'll get a certified copy. And then you 6 can take judicial notice of it. 7 THE COURT: Very good. Well, the only thing I 8 think that perhaps that she may be able to tell us 9 is what I think she's already said, and that is on 10 Page 3-5 of this document, ma'am, which is the last 11 page. 12 It seems to suggest the highest ranking 13 officers in the Sea Org are as follows. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, but I think you are on 15 Page -- there is another 3-5 right before that one. 16 THE COURT: Whoops. Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: Which says: "Although the Sea 18 Org itself does not have an organizational or 19 management structure, it does have officer selection 20 boards who review and decide on applications for 21 rankings." 22 And basically I had a chance to look at this 23 document enough to see that it pretty much is saying 24 what I said earlier, which is that the Sea Org 25 itself -- and, in my experience, when I was in
406 1 Scientology, you get ranks and ratings in the Sea 2 Org. 3 Sometimes you get them awarded to you for 4 good -- you know -- production or whatever. But 5 usually you provide -- you make an application to 6 get -- to get promoted. And then there is a 7 ceremony every year where the people who are being 8 promoted in rank or rating are awarded their new 9 rank and rating. 10 THE COURT: But whatever happens, the head -- 11 if there is a structure or whatever it is, it is -- 12 the head is always Mr. Miscavige? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Miscavige is the head of 14 Scientology, and chairman of the board of RTC. 15 It talks in here a little about brevet rank, 16 military terms, brevet rank. I'm familiar with this 17 from being in the Sea Org. 18 There is such a thing as brevet rank, which it 19 is my understanding that you are giving -- given a 20 brevet rank because of the position you are holding, 21 you know. 22 Like if you are commanding officer of one of 23 the organizations, you are given a certain brevet 24 rank that goes along with that position, but you 25 don't hold that rank if you lose that position, or
407 1 whatever. 2 So, you know, the position that Miscavige 3 holds -- and I think this is the big issue here -- 4 the position that Miscavige holds which gives him 5 his authority is chairman of the board of RTC. If 6 he were to be busted off that position, he would no 7 longer be -- he would no longer have this rank of 8 captain. 9 THE COURT: Just like Hubbard had the rank of 10 captain -- 11 THE WITNESS: He had the rank of commodore. 12 But I think nobody else will ever be given the rank 13 of commodore, although -- I don't know, I may be 14 wrong about that. I left in 1989. But at the time 15 I was familiar with that, the rank of commodore had 16 been retired because it was going to only be a rank 17 that Mr. Hubbard would ever hold. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, maybe it would be better if 20 it was proffered as to what it is being offered for, 21 because there is a staff and fraternal organization. 22 They are two different things. And I think that is 23 what is leading to some confusion here. 24 And it is -- if it is an issue, we'll have to 25 address -- we'll address it. But when you say
408 1 everybody that was at the Ft. Harrison was in the 2 Sea Org, that is because they were on staff. And I 3 think that distinction was made earlier. 4 THE COURT: I know why it is being introduced. 5 And I'm sure you have figured it out, too. 6 Proceed. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Is there anything in that last page of Composite 7 9 that -- as far as the people shown to be the captain? Is 10 that inaccurate? 11 A I would certainly imagine -- I think your question 12 really is would it be accurate to say David Miscavige holds 13 the rank of captain? 14 Q Sure. 15 A As I just told the Judge -- 16 Q Just a yes or no. 17 A There is no -- there is no question that he would 18 have the highest rank to go along with being the highest 19 authority. 20 Q And -- and in Exhibit Number 6, the photograph, is 21 that Mr. Miscavige that has, I guess, the four stripes on 22 his sleeve? 23 A Yes. That is what -- that is to designate 24 captain. 25 Q Okay. Do you recognize that picture?
409 1 A I have seen it before. 2 Q Does it look to be pretty current? 3 A Mmm, well, to the degree that I believe 4 Mr. Miscavige is still in charge. Whenever this picture was 5 taken, it would still be accurate with regard to his 6 position. 7 THE COURT: I think he said does that look 8 fairly recent? You just met with Mr. Miscavige, 9 didn't you? 10 THE WITNESS: No. I haven't seen him since 11 1989. 12 A It would be within the last few years. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Okay. 15 A I would think. 16 Q But you recognize the gentleman -- and I guess do 17 you see anybody else with four stripes on their sleeve in 18 that picture? 19 A No. He would be the only one who would have four. 20 His wife here -- is here, Shelley. She has three. 21 THE COURT: Are these stripes, this military 22 ranking, this is part of the Sea Org? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. They are wearing Sea Org 24 uniforms. 25 THE COURT: Are you going to introduce that as
410 1 Number 6? 2 MR. LIROT: Yes, I am, Judge. 3 THE COURT: Could I have that? 4 Any objection? 5 THE WITNESS: Do you need this one? 6 THE COURT: Yes, if you are done with it. 7 Any objection to this picture? This is a 8 fairly simple thing. 9 MR. FUGATE: It's a picture, Judge. No 10 objection. 11 THE COURT: It will be received as Number 6. 12 MR. FUGATE: Relevance, but -- 13 THE COURT: No, I think it is relevant. 14 Overruled, if that is an objection. 15 And, Number 7, as far as I'm concerned, it has 16 been authenticated for purpose of this hearing, 17 which, if there is a head of the Sea Org, it is 18 David Miscavige. 19 MR. MOXON: I'll object, your Honor. She can't 20 authenticate this at all. I didn't hear him ask her 21 if this was authentic, if she had ever seen it 22 before or anything else. 23 THE COURT: He said he would tie this up. 24 MR. MOXON: But that doesn't -- 25 THE COURT: But for her purpose and for the
411 1 purpose of this hearing as to whether or not, 2 somehow or another, Mr. Dandar put something false 3 and fraudulent on the Court in suggesting that 4 Mr. Miscavige was -- was at the head of this and may 5 have had information about this case, it has 6 relevance. So for that purpose, it is admissible. 7 And so your objection is overruled. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Let me draw your attention back to Exhibit Number 10 5, your declaration of December 14, 1994. 11 You understand, obviously -- do you know what date 12 Lisa McPherson died? 13 A December 5, 1995. 14 Q Okay. So this declaration was well before that 15 date, was it not? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. And I think in Paragraph 1 you said you 18 were over 18 years of age, a resident of Seattle. I won't 19 quibble with that. 20 Paragraph 2, you articulated you were a 21 Scientologist for 15 years. 22 MR. LIROT: And, obviously, I'll just 23 paraphrase this, Judge. The document will speak for 24 itself? 25 THE COURT: Why do you have to go through it?
412 1 If there is something, in particular, you want to 2 ask her about some particular paragraph, let's go to 3 that. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Paragraph Number 3, that paragraph, I think you 6 say, describes the abuses of Scientology. 7 Why don't you read that for the record. 8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, if it speaks for 9 itself, it speaks for itself. 10 THE COURT: I'll agree with that. 11 MR. LIROT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Is there anything that you state in there about 14 what you felt were the abuses of Scientology? Was there 15 anything in there you felt was untrue? 16 A No. I believed it to be true when I wrote it. 17 Q And the last phrase of that sentence is, I think 18 you mentioned, "denial of proper medical care for people 19 driven into psychotic episodes as a result of such abuse as 20 described above." 21 You believed that to be true in 1994 long before 22 Lisa McPherson passed away, is that true? 23 A Yes. Yes. 24 Q Did you see any examples of that in your 15 years 25 with Scientology?
413 1 A Mmm, I was involved in one situation in which a 2 woman -- in which I was actually one of the people caring 3 for a woman who was in a psychotic episode. 4 Q Was that person denied proper medical care, in 5 your opinion? 6 A She was cared for by us, and we were not medical 7 doctors, similar to Lisa being cared for by the people who 8 cared for her. 9 Q Did you have to force-feed that one woman? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And in Paragraph 6 it says that: "In July of 12 1994, just this past summer, two high-level Scientologists 13 approached my husband and me and offered to pay us money if 14 we would perjure ourselves by stating under oath that the 15 information we provided in sworn declarations is false, 16 which it is not, and agreed never to speak or write another 17 critical word about Scientology again." 18 Was that true? 19 A Mmm, no. It's not. 20 Q Nobody offered you -- nobody offered you money? 21 A Yes. We were offered money. 22 Q They did? All right. So what is untrue about 23 that statement? 24 A We weren't asked to perjure ourselves. I thought 25 that we had been at that time. But I have since learned
414 1 that that was not the case. 2 Q All right, well, let me draw your attention to 3 Paragraph 8 -- 4 THE COURT: Well, counselor -- when did you 5 learn that? 6 THE WITNESS: Mmm, within the last month, your 7 Honor -- 8 THE COURT: And -- 9 THE WITNESS: -- that particular issue came up. 10 THE COURT: How did it come up? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, I had conversation with 12 Mr. Rinder, in which I asked him about it. 13 And he told me some things about the 14 circumstances surrounding that -- the affidavit that 15 they showed to us that made me realize that he did 16 not consider that it would be perjuring myself if I 17 signed it. 18 THE COURT: So this same conversation with 19 Mr. Rinder was in some confidential communication 20 you have had with him about trying to work out this 21 case and all of the rest of the cases and extricate 22 yourself from all of the problems you and Mr. Minton 23 have? 24 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, it wasn't a 25 confidential conversation.
415 1 THE COURT: Well, was it part of your 2 discussion with Mr. Rinder about extricating 3 yourself from what you thought the problems you had 4 with this case were? 5 THE WITNESS: Mmm, it was part of that ongoing 6 discussion. Yes. I -- I asked him about that. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Rinder -- I don't know where he 8 falls into the hierarchy of the Church -- but is he 9 a high-ranking person? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. He's very high-ranking. 11 THE COURT: I don't know and I'm asking this 12 because I don't know, is he right under 13 Mr. Miscavige? Or -- 14 THE WITNESS: There may be some people between 15 he and Mr. Miscavige. But he's fairly high-ranking. 16 And I would think that he works with Mr. Miscavige 17 directly, at least some of the time. 18 THE COURT: Okay. And how was it that you and 19 he discussed this? 20 In other words, this is fairly specific, "that 21 they offered to pay us money if we would perjure 22 ourselves by stating under oath that we had -- that 23 the information we have provided in sworn 24 declarations is false, which it is not, and agreeing 25 never to speak or write another critical word
416 1 again." 2 Tell me exactly what discussion you had with 3 him about that. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. Mmm, he was -- he was 5 talking about another former Scientologist whose 6 name is Vicky Aznaran, A-Z-N-A-R-A-N. 7 And this was in the context of -- hang on just 8 a minute. It was in the context of talking -- he 9 was telling me about how -- oh, I remember. He was 10 talking to me about how angry Vicky Aznaran -- I'll 11 make it as fast as I can -- when she found out that 12 an attorney she had written an affidavit for had 13 added pages to the affidavit, after she signed it 14 and turned it in to him. 15 And she had then written in the affidavit 16 stating that she -- stating that: "I wrote an 17 8-page affidavit and signed it and turned it in to 18 this attorney. And after I turned it in to him, he 19 added pages to the affidavit, unbeknownst to me." 20 Well, that is one of the things in the critic 21 community -- that everyone has always believed that 22 Scientology had Vicky Aznaran write a false 23 affidavit, saying that this attorney had done this. 24 Nobody has ever believed that -- that that really 25 happened. They thought that, as part of her
417 1 settlement with Scientology, they had gotten Vicky 2 Aznaran an affidavit to write, basically saying that 3 this attorney did this bad thing, when it wasn't 4 really true. 5 Well, the reason that it came up was because 6 Vicky Aznaran had settled with them about probably 7 less than a month before this -- well, no, not less 8 than a month before this declaration -- but less 9 than a month before July '93 when we got together 10 with these people that is the subject of this 11 affidavit. 12 And -- and I was flabbergasted to have him tell 13 me that it was really true that this attorney 14 actually added pages to an affidavit after she 15 turned it in. 16 And he said, you know, "I'm telling you, you 17 can ask Vicky Aznaran yourself, if you want to. She 18 was really upset about this when she wrote that 19 affidavit." 20 Well, the reason it is relevant, your Honor, is 21 because my husband and I met with them for quite a 22 number of days. And -- Mmm -- 23 THE COURT: Met with "them" being who? 24 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rinder and Mr. Sutter, as 25 described in this affidavit.
418 1 And when they -- at the end of eight days' 2 worth of talks, they -- we said, you know, what kind 3 of thing is it that you want us to sign? You know, 4 what -- what things would you want us to do? 5 And they pulled out a draft of an affidavit in 6 which it said that we had -- in which it said that 7 this attorney had added things to affidavits of 8 ours, the same way the attorney had done it to Vicky 9 Aznaran. 10 Well, it was only in the last month, when I had 11 this conversation with Mr. Rinder, that it even 12 really occurred to me that they might have actually 13 thought that this attorney was doing the same thing 14 with us, and that that is why they presented that in 15 that affidavit. 16 I have thought for -- for -- for a very long 17 time, since this incident occurred, that they were 18 knowingly giving me a false affidavit to sign. But 19 I now feel that that wasn't the case. 20 THE COURT: Do you know whether or not some 21 attorney added pages to your affidavit? 22 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that happened. 23 But I'm just saying that -- 24 THE COURT: Didn't you just tell me that what 25 they asked you to sign this time was an affidavit
419 1 that said an attorney had added pages to your 2 affidavit? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. But what I'm 4 saying is that I think that the Scientologists, 5 because of what happened with Vicky Aznaran less 6 than a month before they met with me -- I think they 7 were assuming the attorney had done the same thing 8 with me, and that is why they were saying that in 9 the affidavit that they showed me -- 10 THE COURT: But, in truth, ma'am, they wanted 11 you to sign the affidavit? 12 THE WITNESS: They sure did. 13 THE COURT: They sure did. And you didn't know 14 that an attorney had added pages, and they didn't, 15 either? 16 THE WITNESS: Right. But they -- but they -- 17 you know, all I'm saying, your Honor, is that at the 18 time that I wrote this affidavit right here, I very 19 much believed that they wanted us to perjure 20 ourselves. 21 And now, as I sit here with you today, I no 22 longer have such a conviction that that was the 23 case. 24 THE COURT: But if you could see your affidavit 25 that they were talking about, you would know whether
420 1 somebody added pages or not? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would. 3 THE COURT: And if somebody didn't add pages, 4 then they wouldn't have been asking you to sign a 5 false affidavit? 6 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 7 THE COURT: If somebody had added pages -- 8 THE WITNESS: Then they would be asking me to 9 sign a true affidavit. 10 THE COURT: Right. Okay. But is it true that 11 they offered you money for this? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, they were offering us money 13 to settle with us, basically. 14 THE COURT: What -- I guess these are not the 15 kinds of settlements I'm used to. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah. 17 THE COURT: What were they going to settle? 18 What was there to settle? That you stop -- that you 19 stop -- 20 THE WITNESS: That we would -- 21 THE COURT: -- submitting affidavits? 22 THE WITNESS: That we would stop acting as 23 experts against Scientology and consultants against 24 Scientology. 25 THE COURT: They were going to pay you money
421 1 for your silence, essentially? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, basically. 3 THE COURT: All right, continue on. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Ms. Brooks, the last sentence of Paragraph 6 on 6 the top of Page 2 of 9 says: "These two Scientologists 7 warned us if we refused to agree to their terms, they would 8 increase the intimidation and harassment of us, break us 9 financially, and ruin our reputations. We still refused to 10 give in to their threats." 11 True? 12 A It was a little bit -- 13 Q True? 14 A -- elaborated on. 15 Q True? 16 A But it was basically true. 17 THE COURT: Don't argue with this witness now. 18 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 19 A It was quite a bit elaborated on, but it was my 20 understanding of what they were doing. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q The next number of paragraphs -- again, the 23 document speaks for itself -- talks about the power that 24 Scientology apparently still had over you at that time. 25 You talk a lot about mind control, and I guess the
422 1 ability to -- I'm looking at Paragraph 13, the second 2 sentence: "Although I did not realize it at the time, I was 3 still under the influence of the cult to the degree they 4 could still intimidate me, frighten me and 'trigger' strong 5 emotional reactions in me." 6 True? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Still true? 9 A No. 10 Q Not at all? 11 A No. Strong -- 12 Q I haven't asked any questions. 13 A But it is part of my answer -- 14 THE COURT: Go ahead. 15 A What has caused me to be afraid more recently has 16 been the threat that I would go to jail for perjury. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Let me draw your attention to Paragraph 16 on Page 19 3-9, about two-thirds of the way down there. It says: "I 20 discovered that, indeed, one of their main purposes was to 21 get us to discredit Mr. Barry, who had been extremely 22 successful in litigating against Scientology. The key theme 23 of the declarations they drafted for us to sign was that 24 Mr. Barry had orchestrated every aspect of our attack 25 against Scientology. We refused to go along with the
423 1 character assassination of Mr. Barry." 2 True? 3 A Mmm, is this a scan? Or where did you get this? 4 Oh, off the website. Okay. 5 Q Your website. 6 A I'm just seeing lots of typos. 7 Q Do you know how to get a copy of the original? 8 A Mmm, well, probably what happened was the person 9 who scanned it didn't correct these things before it went on 10 the website, if you downloaded this from the website. 11 Q Do you maintain copies of your declaration -- do 12 you have original copies of those declarations in any files? 13 A No. I don't. I mean, I'm just saying that must 14 be how these things happened, because I don't usually have 15 typos in my declarations. 16 Q I guess the question was, was it true? Did you 17 feel they were trying to go through this exercise to 18 discredit their attorney in the case? 19 THE COURT: Who is "their attorney"? They were 20 trying to discredit their own attorney? 21 THE WITNESS: No. No. 22 MR. LIROT: No, judge, I misspoke. The 23 attorney against Scientology in that case, 24 Mr. Barry. 25 A That is how I felt at the time I wrote this. Yes.
424 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q All right. Let me draw your attention to 3 Paragraph Number 18 on Page 4 of 9. 4 The first sentence says: "First and most 5 importantly, at the very outset of these meetings, we made 6 it clear that we would not perjure ourselves by recanting 7 any statements made in our previous declarations that we 8 stated was true, and we would not now lie by saying what we 9 had written was not true." 10 It says: "Much to their dismay, we also made it 11 clear immediately we would not in any way denigrate 12 Mr. Barry. 13 "They tried to change our minds about Mr. Barry by 14 suggesting that he had put us up to writing our 15 declarations." 16 Then the last sentence, it says: "The key theme 17 in the declarations they drafted for us to sign was that 18 Mr. Barry had orchestrated every aspect of our attack 19 against Scientology." 20 A Where are you reading from now? 21 Q The last sentence of Paragraph 18. 22 A Oh. Okay. 23 Q True? 24 A Which part? 25 Q Is everything in Paragraph 18 true?
425 1 A Let me just look it over, because I haven't had a 2 chance to read the whole thing. 3 Q Certainly. 4 A Mmm, as I said, this is definitely how I felt at 5 the time I wrote this declaration. I don't feel this way 6 any more. But I definitely felt that way then. 7 Q Why don't you feel that way now? 8 A As I said, I have had a chance to get other 9 information. 10 Q You don't -- you don't at some point think they 11 were going out of their way to discredit this attorney to 12 undermine the case? 13 A Oh, there is no question they were -- that they 14 wanted us to discredit the attorney. 15 Q Did they file a motion to disqualify in that case, 16 if you know? 17 A I don't know. But -- but, Mmm, what I'm saying, I 18 guess, is at that time I thought that they were 19 intentionally wanting us to lie. 20 And at this time, as I sit here before you today, 21 I don't believe that that is what they were asking us to do. 22 Q Well, what were they asking you to do? 23 A I think that they believed that Mr. Barry had done 24 unethical things, and that they wanted us to provide 25 evidence about that.
426 1 Q And instead of going to the Court, they threatened 2 you with intimidation, harassment, financial ruin and 3 whatever else you articulate? 4 A Well, as I said -- 5 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. That 6 presumes facts not in evidence, as far as I know, 7 "instead of going to the Court." I object to the 8 characterization. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 A What was the question again? Sorry. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Did they take this to the Court? 13 A Mmm, I don't know. I don't know. We weren't 14 involved in this case any longer, so I don't know what 15 happened. 16 But, you know, Mr. Lirot, there is no question 17 that Scientology plays real hard ball in their litigation. 18 I don't think anybody in the world would disagree with that. 19 Q Where is -- what is the line between hard ball and 20 what is in this affidavit is my question. 21 A Well, as I said, it was a little bit of an 22 exaggeration to say they were threatening those things that 23 I said in my affidavit. It's the way that I felt. Mmm, I 24 wasn't -- I didn't understand the litigation process then 25 the way I do now.
427 1 Q So -- 2 A I didn't understand the -- Mmm, the -- Mmm, the 3 various avenues that can be taken to try to make litigation 4 go the way a party wants it to go. And -- 5 THE COURT: What avenues do you think those are 6 now? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, for example, I think -- 8 THE COURT: Blackmailing the judge? 9 THE WITNESS: No. I don't think so. 10 THE COURT: I don't, either. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't think that is okay, your 12 Honor. 13 But I guess I would have to say, generally 14 speaking, your Honor, I no longer feel that the 15 Church of Scientology is resorting to illegalities 16 in their litigation procedures. I don't have any 17 evidence that they have. And I think that that 18 was -- 19 THE COURT: You certainly didn't, from what 20 little bit I have read in this affidavit, and I 21 haven't read it all. But, certainly -- 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, I was furious, your Honor. I 23 really was. And at that time I thought they were 24 the devil. I did. 25 THE COURT: As much as I would like to complete
428 1 this tonight, I can see we're not going to, so -- 2 I'm tired. 3 Where is a good place to stop? Are you going 4 to continue to keep going through this? 5 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. I think this document 6 speaks for itself. 7 THE COURT: Suffice it to say, ma'am, at the 8 time you wrote this declaration, you believed it to 9 be true? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. The declaration will be 12 received. I guess it has been received as -- what 13 number is it? It's Number 5? 14 MR. LIROT: It's Number 5, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Is this a good stopping point? 16 MR. DANDAR: We can go all night. 17 THE COURT: Well, I know you can. But I'm 18 getting to be an old woman so I can't. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, yes, I'm not going to burden 20 anybody else with going forward at this point. So 21 we'll pick it up when you think it is appropriate. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Let's have a little clue 23 here, just for my benefit. How much longer do you 24 think you'll be with this witness? 25 I mean, Mr. Minton comes every day and sits
429 1 outside. And it is fairly boring out there, a 2 pretty hard bench and fairly boring. 3 Will we finish with this witness tomorrow, or 4 not? 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, we'll finish with this witness 6 tomorrow, Judge. We'll finish with this witness in 7 the morning is my anticipated schedule. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Then I suppose we better 9 have -- I mean, I don't know how lengthy redirect or 10 anything will be. But we better have Mr. Minton 11 present, because I would like a full day of it. 12 So I think you can feel relatively assured not 13 having your client come until tomorrow afternoon if 14 you would like, Mr. Howie. In fact, I will state if 15 we're fortunate to get to Mr. Minton tomorrow, it 16 will be one o'clock or later. So if you can have 17 him here by one, if you try to find out what time I 18 took a lunch break, that means after lunch. If I 19 break at 12:30 to 1:30, obviously, 1:30. 20 MR. LIROT: One admonition. Maybe we ask 21 Ms. Brooks that she maintain council only with her 22 own attorney? 23 THE COURT: Yes. This is important. I 24 suppose, counselor, you have explained this to her, 25 that she is on the stand, she is a witness. She
430 1 cannot have any communication. 2 And I realize how hard that must be when 3 Mr. Minton is the next witness, and their 4 relationship is such that they are together. But 5 you must try very hard not to discuss this with him 6 because, you know, if you do, and he mentions that 7 you have, then you are in deep trouble, because you 8 really can't. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Because you are still on the stand. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm really doing that. 12 THE COURT: And, counsel, I know she knows how 13 important this is while she's a witness. 14 MR. McGOWAN: She does, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right, we'll quit for the day. 16 We'll see you all back here at -- want to try for 9? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. Thank you. 19 (WHEREUPON, Court stands adjourned for the 20 evening.) 21 ______________________________________ 22 23 24 25

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