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Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 431 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 4 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 17 DATE: May 7, 2002. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25
432 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25
433 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
434 1 THE COURT: Good morning. All right, we are 2 ready for you, Mr. Lirot, to proceed. You can stay 3 there if you like. 4 MR. LIROT: Good morning. Thank you, Judge. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Ms. Brooks -- 7 A Excuse me, Mr. Lirot, I'm sorry about this, but I 8 can't see you very well all of the way back there. I would 9 rather you sit/stand at the podium, if you wouldn't mind. 10 THE COURT: I'm going to let him stay there. 11 Just do the best you can. 12 THE WITNESS: All right. 13 THE COURT: And the reason is, is because his 14 co-counsel there -- it's very distracting to me, 15 with co-counsel coming up. 16 THE WITNESS: I understand. 17 MR. LIROT: Very good, thank you, Judge. I 18 apologize, I'll make myself as visible as I can 19 here. 20 THE WITNESS: It's not your fault, it's my 21 eyesight. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q I wanted to ask you some questions initially about 24 your affidavit. And this would be -- 25 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, which affidavit?
435 1 MR. LIROT: I was going to get there. I was 2 going to describe it. I think it is Exhibit 72. 3 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Thank you. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q The one I guess you signed on April 29, it has 6 certificate of service for April 30th. I think Mr. McGowan 7 signed it -- 8 THE COURT: Do you have that? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: I do, too. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q You had mentioned yesterday that -- 13 THE COURT: Oh, that is not an exhibit. That 14 is -- just actually has been filed -- oh, it's 72 15 to -- 16 MR. FUGATE: To the memorandum -- 17 THE COURT: But it's not in evidence in this 18 case. It's 72 to the memorandum, and it has been 19 filed with the court. 20 MR. FUGATE: Right. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q I guess I'll ask you some questions -- 24 THE COURT: Oh, before I get started -- 25 MR. LIROT: I'm, Judge --
436 1 THE COURT: -- I wanted to bring something to 2 everyone's attention in the courtroom. I have been 3 advised that there have been some discussions with 4 witnesses or attempt to speak to witnesses outside 5 of the courtroom or otherwise coming from both 6 sides. It's got to stop. Before you know it, those 7 can be considered tampering with witness charges. 8 We can expand this hearing well beyond this. 9 So this is important to anyone in the audience, 10 and I presume you'll pass it on to the witnesses and 11 anybody else. You're not to talk, directly or 12 indirectly, to any of the witnesses that are going 13 to be called in this case. 14 MR. LIROT: I'll pass it on, Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Now -- 18 THE COURT: And -- I'm sorry, if you have 19 witnesses that aren't present or if you have people 20 that aren't present that regularly attend otherwise, 21 would you please, for both sides, pass that on to 22 them? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 24 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 25 THE COURT: I have made this as an order.
437 1 There is to be no contact with any witness, directly 2 or indirectly, in this hearing throughout the 3 pendency of this proceeding. 4 MR. LIROT: Very good. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Ms. Brooks, I guess you said that you had met with 8 Ms. Yingling. Bring me up to how you got from your original 9 concerns about Mr. Minton's I guess traumatized state. How 10 did you describe it? You saw that Mr. Minton wasn't talking 11 to people and was very distraught? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Well, describe his condition to me a little more, 14 if you would. 15 A Mmm, he was becoming very distraught. He was 16 depressed. He was very frightened about what the courts 17 were going to do to him in this case and in the breach case. 18 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird. I think that is -- 19 Q And that was it? Those were the only things that 20 he mentioned to you about his concern? Or was that just 21 your perception? 22 A That is what he was worried about. He was very 23 concerned about Judge Baird and Judge Schaeffer. 24 Q And that was it? 25 A Yes.
438 1 Q Those were the only things? 2 A Well, that was a pretty big thing. He was -- he 3 was -- he was feeling that -- 4 Q Well -- 5 A -- that both judges in both cases were -- well, he 6 was feeling basically that -- you know -- both of the judges 7 in both of the cases were going to find him in contempt, put 8 him in jail; that he was -- he had lied to both Courts, and 9 he basically felt like he was in a situation that had no way 10 out. He felt really trapped. He felt like Mr. Dandar was 11 holding him hostage to the case now. 12 Q Well, how could that be? How can Mr. Dandar hold 13 Mr. Minton hostage to anything? 14 A Because Mr. Minton felt that Mr. Dandar had 15 encouraged him and pressured him to lie under oath, and that 16 Mr. Dandar knew that this had happened. He had tried to 17 talk to him about another way to -- the only other way that 18 either of us could think to avoid -- or to get out of this 19 situation was to drop the case. And Mr. Dandar had said on 20 several occasions, in my presence, "But, Bob, even if you go 21 to jail, it won't affect the case." And so -- 22 Q So he's not held hostage? 23 A Excuse me. I'm not finished. 24 And so Mr. Minton felt very strongly that 25 Mr. Dandar had betrayed him and used him and -- and -- and,
439 1 Mmm, he was very, very depressed about it. 2 Q Well, what was to stop -- I take it that you were 3 Mr. Minton's confidant. You talked to Mr. Minton about 4 things that troubled him. You are close to Mr. Minton. You 5 see that he's in -- I think in a distraught state. Why not 6 just go to the Court? Why not go to the Court, say, "Hey, I 7 lied about a check, I lied about this agreement people are 8 talking about"? Why go to the opposition? Why try to get 9 the case dismissed? I guess I'll ask the first question. 10 Why would you go to your opponents when your 11 concern is not with your opponents but with statements made 12 under oath to the Court? 13 A Because the only other possibility -- well, that 14 is a lot of questions you just asked me. 15 I think the best way to answer it would be -- and 16 I think I have said this before, but I'll say it again -- 17 Mr. Minton felt a very strong sense that he would be 18 betraying the whole cause if he came forward to the Court. 19 He felt a very strong sense that, Mmm, all of the people 20 that he's worked with, all of the people that have very 21 strong feelings against Scientology, would turn against him 22 if he did something that would hurt the case. 23 Q Well -- 24 A And the only other possibility that we could see 25 was to try to settle with Scientology and get them to let us
440 1 both walk away from this whole thing. 2 THE COURT: Quite candidly, ma'am, was there a 3 bigger fear of the opponent than there was of the 4 Court? 5 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 6 THE COURT: I mean, I'm not sure if that is 7 responsive or not. The question is why did you go 8 to the opponent rather than the Court. Sounds like 9 what you said, that information could have been 10 brought through Mr. Howie, through your counsel, to 11 the Court, as well as going to the other side. So 12 is there -- 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 THE COURT: -- some thought that you were 15 afraid of the opponent just like you were of the 16 Court? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, we basically got to the 18 point where we felt like there really wasn't any 19 place to turn, there wasn't really any good road for 20 us to go down. We -- Mr. Minton was extremely 21 afraid of what the Court would do, very afraid of 22 what the Court would do, and -- and as I said, 23 hoping that Scientology would let him walk away from 24 this thing and not -- and, thereby, allowing him not 25 to have to go through what we're now going through.
441 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q How does Scientology have the ability to do 3 anything about something that you have stated under oath 4 that is a lie? I don't -- 5 A Well -- 6 Q Explain that to me, please. 7 A Okay. Because -- and I mean, you know, this was 8 probably incorrect, but our thinking was that -- sorry -- 9 our thinking was that if -- 10 Q I'm listening. 11 A Our thinking was that if we settled with 12 Scientology, then they would stop any further discovery into 13 either one of us, and the whole issue of us would just not 14 be a part of the case any more and we could just be free of 15 all of it. 16 Q Well, that is not worried about, what you have 17 already done. That is a fear about what may happen in the 18 future. Right? 19 A That is what we were -- that's what he was so 20 afraid of. He was afraid of what was going to happen with 21 Judge Schaeffer's order that he -- Mmm, you know, go back in 22 deposition. There was an ongoing, Mmm, situation before 23 Judge Baird. And he was very afraid of what was going to 24 happen in the future. That is what we were trying to deal 25 with.
442 1 THE COURT: Let's see if I understand this 2 correctly. And if I understand this correctly, you 3 thought that if the case were dropped, the 4 Scientology would not -- the Church would not pursue 5 any additional discovery and then, I guess, 6 therefore, there would be no need to reveal the 7 perjury. 8 THE WITNESS: Exactly, your Honor. But not -- 9 we weren't thinking that -- well, we didn't feel 10 that getting the case dropped was an option any 11 longer, but we were hoping that Scientology would 12 let us settle and thereby stop the discovery and 13 thereby get us out of this. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, what was it in that discovery that bothered 16 you? What specifically? 17 A Because Scientology kept asking questions about 18 the money and questions about these -- this agreement. 19 Every time he would go into deposition. 20 Q And nobody objected that those questions were 21 asked and answered? I mean, wasn't that -- 22 THE COURT: You know what, Counsel, she 23 explained this several times. If you think there 24 are other motives or reasons, get to it and ask her. 25
443 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q All right. Well, let me draw your attention to 3 this time line you did. I think this was Exhibit 4 4 yesterday, your Honor. And this was the time line we spoke 5 about. 6 Do you have a copy of it? 7 A Let's see. 8 MR. LIROT: Judge, we made some clean copies 9 off the website yesterday -- 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. LIROT: -- and I -- 12 A No, I don't. 13 MR. LIROT: If I may approach, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 I read through this last night just a little 16 bit, but frankly, I didn't see any notes on my copy. 17 My copy just seemed to have pages penned in, so I 18 don't need another copy so -- 19 MR. LIROT: I'll give this one to the clerk 20 then. 21 THE COURT: What is that? I didn't have that. 22 MR. LIROT: This is the same thing, Judge, if I 23 could hand that to you. 24 What that is, your Honor, that is -- I guess it 25 depends on what the computer capability is. This is
444 1 just the text, and I guess that one has actually the 2 photographs. 3 But as I understand it, it's the same document. 4 THE COURT: Is this the one to be filed? 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, please. 6 THE COURT: All right, Madam Clerk. 7 It's got a picture on it. 8 MR. LIROT: This one has a picture and I think 9 the text is identical. I don't know of any other 10 differences but -- 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Lirot, mine is all cut off on 12 the side, the words are all cut off. It's not a 13 full copy. 14 THE COURT: Let me see this, Madam Clerk. So 15 is this one. 16 MR. LIROT: Well, then I guess we'll have to 17 give you another clean copy, Judge. 18 MR. WEINBERG: So is ours. 19 MR. LIROT: Let me have that one back and let 20 me take a look at it. 21 MR. FUGATE: It's on the side. The same thing. 22 MR. LIROT: Well, then, Judge, apparently I 23 don't have any explanation for this. 24 THE COURT: Is that just the first -- no, it's 25 all of the pages?
445 1 MR. LIROT: No, the whole thing is like that, 2 Judge. 3 THE COURT: Well, I can't give up mine because 4 I made notes on it and because I -- 5 MR. LIROT: No, that is the other one. The 6 other one should not be cut off. The one I 7 introduced yesterday should have the full text. 8 THE COURT: Let me see that one because I 9 didn't see any notes. So let's see what they 10 introduced yesterday. And I'll look it over. If 11 there aren't any notes -- 12 THE CLERK: Is that the one we were to get a 13 clean copy? We never got it. 14 THE COURT: You never got it? 15 THE CLERK: No. 16 THE COURT: Well, it's all right. You still 17 need to get a clean copy that has the -- 18 MR. LIROT: I will. Judge, during the break 19 I'll have a copy of the one that we handed up -- 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. LIROT: -- copied in the law library. I'll 22 make sure we get a clean copy of that. I apologize. 23 THE COURT: Does Ms. Brooks have that one to 24 review for this questioning? Do you have -- 25 THE WITNESS: No, I only have the one that is
446 1 cut off. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- make sure, Judge, we are 3 talking about the same thing. 4 THE COURT: It's the same thing. 5 MR. LIROT: Let me just -- 6 MR. FUGATE: This is the one -- 7 MR. LIROT: 1 to 52; 51, 52? 8 MR. FUGATE: Yes, okay. 9 MR. LIROT: That is the one. 10 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, judge. 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, the document I'll be 12 referring to is hand-numbered -- 13 THE COURT: Do you have a copy for the witness? 14 MR. LIROT: 1 through 52. And this one has 15 pages 1 through 40. But as I understand it, this 16 has the full text. I'm just going to be referring 17 to the dates, Judge, so I'll hand this up to the 18 witness. I'll not be referring to any of the page 19 numbers. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. LIROT: And I'll take this incomplete copy 22 back. 23 THE COURT: Maybe this isn't the same thing. 24 Mine ends with -- no, it's the same thing. Okay. 25 MR. LIROT: I apologize for the confusion,
447 1 Judge. I -- I'll approach. Every time you print 2 these off the computer, I guess it depends how the 3 margins are set and -- 4 THE COURT: Probably. 5 MR. LIROT: -- and a variety of other issues 6 there. 7 All right. So for the record, Judge, my 8 questions will be based on the document that we 9 provided yesterday, time line of Scientology's 10 harassment of Robert S. Minton and colleagues. 11 THE COURT: Which is what number? 12 MR. LIROT: I believe it was Number 4. Exhibit 13 4 yesterday. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. LIROT: And I think she authenticated this 16 and talked about it a little bit. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Could I ask one question? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. WEINBERG: As I understand it, the witness 21 only has part of that exhibit now? 22 MR. LIROT: She has the whole exhibit. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I thought you said she had 1 24 through 40. 25 MR. LIROT: It's the same exhibit. It's just
448 1 in a smaller type face. 2 THE WITNESS: But this is really different 3 because there is -- if you look at this, it looks 4 like things have been typed in separately. And this 5 is not readable and so it's not really the same. 6 THE COURT: Use my copy. Or, better yet, if 7 you all have more than one copy, I could have my own 8 copy. Do you have more than one? 9 MR. FUGATE: I have got the one -- yes, Judge. 10 THE COURT: All right. You let me have mine 11 back and they'll give you one. 12 THE WITNESS: All right. 13 MR. FUGATE: May I approach? Or -- 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 MR. LIROT: It is 1 through 52? 16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I didn't look. So I'm 17 guilty as -- it's 1 through 52. 18 THE COURT: And that is the one I have. 19 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Mr. Fugate. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q All right, now, you have a copy of the time line 22 pages 1 through 52? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q We all have the same sheet music here. All right. 25 Now, you authored this document for a large part,
449 1 didn't you? 2 A For the most part, yes. 3 Q All right. And I guess there is an introduction 4 here that talks about Mr. Minton's, I guess, background and 5 his degree. And it says he has a bachelor of science, and 6 then talks about his interest in the Internet -- 7 THE COURT: Counselor, please. We don't need 8 to have you read something you have introduced into 9 evidence. So get whatever it is you want to get to. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right, on the bottom of the fourth paragraph, 12 the last sentence there where it says that with his first 13 public protest in Clearwater, he became -- he now came to 14 the attention of the Scientology's Office of Special 15 Affairs. 16 What is that? I think you describe it in the next 17 paragraph. 18 A Mmm, well, I think I describe it in the next 19 paragraph. 20 Q Well, why don't you tell the Court what it is, in 21 your own words? 22 A Office of Special Affairs is the part of 23 Scientology that I used to be a part of when I was in 24 Scientology for most of my career in Scientology. And it 25 has basically the -- its role is to deal with, you know,
450 1 basically all of the different -- well, basically its role 2 is to interface with various aspects of society for 3 Scientology, including the courts, the media -- well, 4 primarily the courts and the media, and -- and they also are 5 the part of Scientology that deals with, you know, critics 6 of Scientology, like I was -- like I was, or Mr. Minton, you 7 know. 8 I mean, they basically deal with everything that 9 would distract from what Scientology is supposed -- is 10 trying to do, you know, with their own people. Does that 11 make sense? 12 Q In this it says that OSA's methods include 13 harassment of the individual and his or her family and 14 associates. 15 Have you seen that happen? 16 A Yes. I think I described it yesterday. 17 Q And it says, "Causing the individual legal 18 problems in whatever ways possible. Isolating the 19 individual from family and friends and, where possible, by 20 either legal or illegal means, causing the individual to be 21 arrested." 22 Explain that to me. What instances of that did 23 you see? 24 A Illegal means, I'm not -- I'm not able to give you 25 examples of. Where are you reading from? I'm not --
451 1 Q I'm at the bottom of the fifth paragraph, 2 basically in the middle. Three lines up, four lines up from 3 the bottom? 4 A Okay. I see that. I see that. 5 Q Did you write this part? 6 A Yes, I wrote the whole thing. 7 Q All right. Well, you continue on here, it says, 8 "Causing the individual to be arrested, tried and convicted 9 of criminal acts." Then it says, "By bringing about a 10 criminal conviction, Scientology would of course be able to 11 discredit the critic and thereby neutralize his or her 12 effectiveness." 13 Did you see that happen? 14 A I'm just trying to remember what I was thinking 15 about when -- when I wrote that. The last sentence -- 16 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. Did you think 17 that that might be what was going on with the Jesse 18 Prince arrest and prosecution? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: So would that be an example of what 21 you were referring to? 22 THE WITNESS: That would be an example. 23 THE COURT: Had Jesse Prince been convicted of 24 a felony and had he come in and been convicted, he 25 would come in and be asked have you ever been
452 1 convicted of a felony, and he would say yes and he 2 would be discredited? 3 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q What about Mr. Minton's arrest? Wasn't Mr. Minton 6 arrested here in Clearwater? 7 A Yes. Let me just add one thing. 8 The only thing that I would correct is that I 9 don't believe there was any illegal means used. 10 Yes, Mr. Minton was arrested. 11 THE COURT: So you are telling us now that you 12 don't believe in your printing here that you ever 13 saw the Church use illegal means to cause an 14 individual to be arrested, tried and convicted of 15 criminal acts? 16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe I did. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, in the next paragraph you began, and this is 19 on Page 2, it says, "In 1980, a number of high-ranking 20 Scientologists were themselves convicted of criminal conduct 21 as a result of illegal actions taken to silence critics." 22 What personal knowledge do you have of that? 23 A Oh, I was in Scientology when -- when this 24 happened, when the arrests -- when the convictions occurred. 25 My characterization of it as being the result of illegal
453 1 actions taken to silence critics was a little bit for the 2 purpose of this document that I was writing. 3 What actually happened was a number of people who 4 were in the guardian's office, which is what the Office of 5 Special Affairs -- what used to be -- what used to deal with 6 those same functions, Mmm, some of the people that were in 7 the guardian's office did commit illegal acts, breaking and 8 entering into government offices. It was part of a program 9 in which they were trying to correct what they considered to 10 be false reports in government files about Scientology. And 11 some of these people did -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, excuse me, I'm being 13 patient, but this affidavit describes this as 14 happening in 1980 and I don't know what the 15 relevance of it would be to this motion. And all 16 those people, as I understand it, were discharged 17 from the Church, so I don't know what the 18 relevance -- 19 THE COURT: Well, the relevance is if she 20 thought the Church would be pursuing Mr. Minton to 21 be arrested and -- and charged with a criminal act, 22 then that may be some motive for their actions, 23 which is what I believe he's trying to -- 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm only objecting to this 1980 25 reference to guardian's office because as I
454 1 understand it that is no longer -- hasn't been in 2 effect since 1980, and I don't know what relevance 3 it has to these proceedings. That is my objection. 4 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. 5 A This 1980 incident is sort of always what critics 6 of Scientology hold up as -- critics always kind of hold it 7 up as something that is like the same kinds of things that 8 are happening now in Scientology. That is -- that is why I 9 brought it up in this thing. I mean, you'll see that 10 brought up by -- 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q I think you say the exact same thing at the bottom 13 of that paragraph? 14 A That it's the same -- 15 Q The Office of Special -- 16 A It -- 17 THE COURT: Wait, we can't have everybody 18 talking at the same time. So go on ahead, Counsel. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q It says, "However, the Office of Special Affairs 21 replaced the Guardian's Office, and evidence reveals that 22 the same tactics have continued uninterrupted to this day. 23 Mr. Minton will soon discover how relentless OSA can be." 24 You wrote that? 25 A I did. And you can see by that sentence, you
455 1 know, I was writing this to be as -- sorry -- I was writing 2 it to be as dramatic as I possibly could. And, you know, I 3 think I created quite a -- quite some drama here. 4 Q Well, I guess depending on which computer you use, 5 you have got 52 pages of entries here. Wouldn't you say 6 that that certainly shows that whatever -- whatever was 7 happening would certainly be justifiably called relentless? 8 A Yes, I'm just -- 9 Q I don't think that is a lot of editorial liberty, 10 are you? 11 A No, I'm just saying the way it is written is to 12 create the most dramatic effect possible. That is why I 13 brought up with regard -- the thing that happened in 1980. 14 I mean, I -- I realized that the people that committed those 15 crimes and were convicted of them were, I guess, discharged, 16 as Mr. Fugate said, and that -- you know, I mean, there 17 isn't anybody in Scientology that I know of that condoned 18 what those people did, but -- 19 Q Okay. 20 A But what I'm saying is critics used that as, you 21 know -- I mean, it was a really, really bad thing to happen, 22 and critics use it to paint Scientology in the worst 23 possible light. 24 Q You talk about, in the next paragraph, you talk 25 about Mr. Minton. And I think you make reference to
456 1 Mr. Minton provided -- I'm starting in the middle here of 2 the second paragraph on the page hand-numbered 2. 3 "Mr. Minton also provided financial assistance to 4 several Scientology critics, including Grady Ward, Keith 5 Hensen, Lawrence Wollersheim and Arnaldo Lerma, who had 6 become targets of Scientology's infamous 'Fair Game' 7 practices, in which anyone who is identified as an 'enemy' 8 can be tricked, sued, lied to or destroyed for the good of 9 Scientology." 10 What is the Fair Game practice or policy? 11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, first of all, I object 12 to that because it's my understanding that that is 13 no longer -- that that was a writing that occurred 14 years ago and it was withdrawn. And I don't know 15 what her knowledge of it is in its current state, 16 and I would object to it on that basis. 17 THE COURT: Well, it is overruled because this 18 all goes to the right to cross-examine to see 19 whether or not this court will believe their 20 rationale for coming forward with this perjury, and 21 therefore whatever is in her mind is relevant. 22 Now, your objection, therefore, is overruled at 23 this time. 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm objecting for the record, 25 Judge.
457 1 THE COURT: All right. I understand. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q What did you know about the Fair Game practice? 4 A Well -- 5 Q Let me ask you another question. What years were 6 you a member of Scientology? 7 A Mmm, from 1975 until 1989. 8 Q Okay. 9 THE COURT: I hate to do this, but, more 10 importantly, at the time you all were trying to work 11 something out with Scientology, at the time when 12 Mr. Minton was distraught and you were telling him 13 what you believed, what he believed, did you think 14 this Fair Game practice could be used against you 15 and Mr. Minton? 16 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I thought that what 17 Scientology was doing was using the legal system to 18 get us in as much trouble as they could. 19 THE COURT: I don't know what the Fair Game -- 20 is that the Fair Game policy? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, no, the Fair Game policy -- 22 and again, your Honor, you know, the Fair Game 23 policy is another thing that -- I mean, you have to 24 understand, you know, I was -- I was part of a group 25 of advocates. I was part of a group of very,
458 1 very -- Mmm, how do you say it -- you know, who had 2 a very clear agenda to destroy Scientology. 3 And Fair Game policy is another one of these 4 sort of buzz words that the critic community uses 5 and that I use a lot to paint Scientology in the 6 worst possible light. 7 What the Fair Game policy -- I mean, Mr. Fugate 8 is correct when he says that the policy itself is 9 cancelled back in the '60s sometime, but, you know, 10 anybody who is a critic of Scientology -- and when I 11 say critic of Scientology, I mean that is sort of a 12 broad term for this community of people who feel 13 very strongly that Scientology should be done away 14 with. 15 Fair Game is a term -- well, it is basically 16 what I say here, you know, that anybody who is a 17 critic of Scientology can be basically destroyed for 18 the good of Scientology. That is how critics feel 19 about it. 20 THE COURT: And even though -- I'm sorry, but 21 even though the policy itself has been undone, I 22 take it, and they say we don't do that anymore, we 23 don't have a Fair Game policy, if they ever had one, 24 in your mind and in Mr. Minton's mind, whether they 25 did away with it or not, that is what you feared --
459 1 well, this is what you wrote, this is what you 2 feared would happen and continue to happen if you 3 didn't pull yourselves out of this litigation and 4 all of the other litigation? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. And -- and, Mmm, you know, 6 we basically came to feel that -- you know, we found 7 ourselves in such a terrible position because we -- 8 we -- and I -- and I really can't explain this to 9 you because we don't understand it -- but we were in 10 a situation where not only was Scientology closing 11 in on us legally, but the critic community had 12 totally turned against us, too. 13 There were very few people, really only a 14 handful of people any longer, who -- I just can't 15 begin to describe to you -- you know, we -- another 16 aspect of the reason Mr. Minton was so upset, and I 17 think he covered this in his affidavit, you may have 18 read about this -- but when he had told Mr. Dandar 19 that he wasn't going to fund the case anymore, this 20 smear campaign had been launched against him and me 21 within the critic community. 22 THE COURT: And that is part of this, I read 23 part of it last night. 24 THE WITNESS: No, this isn't in the time line. 25 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Was that in something
460 1 else I read? 2 THE WITNESS: No. You did read some posts in 3 here, but these are not the ones I'm talking about. 4 Those were anonymous postings we believe were being 5 done by Scientologists. Whether they were being 6 done by Scientologists or not, I can't tell you. 7 They were anonymous posts. 8 But then what started happening was after he 9 stopped funding the case, Mmm, a lot of the critics 10 who were working with Mr. Dandar just totally turned 11 on Mr. Minton and me and really put us in a 12 situation where it was a worse attack against us 13 than even what was happening from Scientology or 14 what they had ever done. 15 And so we kind of found ourselves wondering, 16 why are we doing this anymore? You know, what's the 17 use? I mean, it really -- it really was the most 18 discouraging experience you could imagine. 19 And it caused us to start to wonder, really, if 20 we had been right about our feelings about 21 Scientology. And I think -- I think I would have to 22 say that the thing -- 23 THE COURT: I think you are well past the 24 answer to the question. 25 MR. LIROT: I think so, Judge.
461 1 THE WITNESS: But I just -- I just wanted to 2 say -- 3 MR. LIROT: May I approach? 4 THE WITNESS: -- that was probably the thing 5 that started us on this path more than anything 6 else. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Let me hand you two pieces of documents here. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll give my copy to the 10 clerk. I think these would be Plaintiff's 8 and 9. 11 MR. FUGATE: Judge, these I would object to for 12 the very reason I stated before. I think this is 13 the policy and the cancellation, and I don't know 14 that it is relevant at all. 15 MR. LIROT: Well -- 16 THE COURT: Well, I -- 17 MR. MOXON: This is not the policy, your Honor. 18 I have to take diversion from Mr. Fugate because he 19 doesn't know. 20 MR. LIROT: We'll get into that, judge. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. MOXON: This is not a policy of the Church. 23 Except for the cancellation, Fair Game, it's the 24 kind of issue that I would like to address with you 25 in some detail. And obviously it's the kind of
462 1 thing Mr. Dandar would like to bring into this case 2 to cast dispersions on the Church because this 3 witness already testified even this term was 4 cancelled in the 1960s. 5 THE COURT: If that is an objection, Counsel, 6 you have made it and it is overruled. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Ms. Brooks, in your activities I guess as a 9 consultant or expert witness, you provided copies of the 10 Fair Game policy to attorneys working for clients that had 11 interests adverse to the Church, did you not? 12 A Yes. And I advised them to bring it up at every 13 opportunity with the Court. 14 Q Okay. Describe to me what -- Page 1 apparently is 15 entitled: "Hubbard Communication Office, Saint Hill Manor, 16 East Krinstead, Sussex." 17 A It is Grinstead. 18 Q Grinstead? I'm sorry. Tell me what that document 19 is. 20 THE COURT: Well now, Counsel, we just don't 21 need it. I can read it. I can see what it says, 22 and I'm about to sustain their objection. You are 23 not -- 24 MR. LIROT: All right. 25 THE COURT: -- doing what you need to do to
463 1 make this relevant to this case. If she doesn't 2 believe, despite the cancellation, that this policy 3 was still in effect, it has no relevancy. I think 4 she said that. So at this point in time I just 5 would move on. 6 MR. LIROT: All right. 7 THE COURT: I mean, the fact of the matter is 8 whatever the Fair Game policy is in writing, 9 whatever it was, it was cancelled. That is what 10 they said. 11 MR. LIROT: I'll explore that, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: All right. Then she said that the 13 critics didn't believe it. They still believed that 14 the very thing that the Fair Game policy was -- 15 anyone who is identified as an enemy can be tricked, 16 sued, lied to or destroyed for the good of 17 Scientology, that the critics still believe this is 18 exactly what occurred. 19 So that makes it relevant. I don't know if it 20 makes it relevant what it was or what the policy is 21 or whether this is it or whether it isn't it. 22 Okay. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Would you say that what you described in this time 25 line pretty well shows -- and I guess this spans from '96,
464 1 '97, to 2001, would you say that what is included in here 2 generally shows that whatever the Fair Game concept was, it 3 was still alive and well throughout your experience for 4 these matters that you have described in the time line? 5 A Well, that is certainly what I was trying to say. 6 Mmm, however, I would -- I have to tell you that I provided 7 this document to a number of people -- well, I should say 8 attorneys -- trying to get them to use my time line as -- as 9 evidence of Fair Game. And I wasn't able to convince them 10 that what was contained in my time line amounted to what I 11 described as Fair Game. 12 Q You weren't able to convince the attorneys that 13 what was in your time line amounted to -- 14 A To Fair Game. 15 Q Okay. Well, let me take a look at the time line 16 with you. If you'll turn to Page 3, I believe that -- I 17 draw your attention to where you have on the lower half of 18 the page marked 1997. 19 A Yes. 20 Q About -- apparently on September 16, '97, did you 21 write this one? Did you put in this entry? 22 A Yes, I did. 23 Q It says: "Mr. Minton received a telephone call 24 from Elliott Abelson, one of Scientology's attorneys, 25 inquiring about his health after the Clearwater protest he
465 1 had attended in March. Mr. Minton had visited the emergency 2 room at Massachusetts General Hospital after his return to 3 Boston." 4 It says, "Clearly, Mr. Abelson wanted Mr. Minton 5 to know that he knew about the visit, thereby letting 6 Mr. Minton know for the first time he was under surveillance 7 by Scientology. Mr. Abelson made subtle threats at 8 retaliation if Mr. Minton did not start helping 9 Scientology's critics." 10 Does that sound like Fair Game? 11 A Well, I think, you know, like I said, I was 12 writing this whole thing to try to make it all sound like 13 Fair Game. So yes, it all sounds like Fair Game. 14 Q All right. You think -- you think Mr. Abelson 15 called Mr. Minton at the hospital in Massachusetts to make 16 him feel better? 17 A No. I think Mr. Abelson called Mr. Minton to let 18 him know that he was now someone that Scientology was 19 watching. 20 Q And why -- 21 THE COURT: Excuse me just a minute so the 22 record is clear. Maybe this is true, but where is 23 it that you think in this September 16 that it says 24 that Mr. Minton was called at the hospital? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. He wasn't called at the
466 1 hospital. 2 THE COURT: I read that to assume it was after 3 he returned home he was called to say he was there. 4 Is that -- which is accurate? 5 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: The way I interpreted it? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q The next entry you have on October 10, it says -- 10 THE COURT: What that has to do with this case, 11 is it in your mind and in Mr. Minton's mind, as you 12 all discussed this, so you don't know that this was 13 true as to what he thought -- you don't have to say 14 that. But assuming you and he discussed it, in your 15 mind you thought that Mr. Minton was under 16 surveillance? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: And I suppose that that is 19 something you were trying to get -- you were coming 20 forward to try to get that to go away? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Ms. Brooks, you have an entry for -- 24 THE COURT: And to make it clear, you do 25 believe that?
467 1 THE WITNESS: I do believe? 2 THE COURT: That Mr. Minton was under 3 surveillance by the Church of Scientology or 4 somebody working for them? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. But, you know, your 6 Honor, I point out, I have been -- I have been doing 7 this work since 1993. This whole -- 8 THE COURT: It doesn't really matter whether it 9 is true or not. In other words, we're -- I think 10 what he's trying to explore is motives and what have 11 you. 12 THE WITNESS: I understand. 13 THE COURT: And whether or not what you are 14 saying now is true, or what you said was -- what you 15 are saying now as perjured was true, that is what 16 this hearing is sort of about. 17 THE WITNESS: I understand. 18 THE COURT: So it is what you thought, not 19 necessarily what is accurate. When you make your 20 objections, I think your objections are sometimes 21 made on the basis that is not so. It is all what 22 this lady's mind is, what her mind-set is. 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, let me make myself clear. 24 I don't want to interfere in your ability to judge 25 her credibility. I just want to make objections
468 1 such as to Fair Game and the cancellation -- 2 THE COURT: I understand and I have no problem. 3 I'm just trying to explain to you that at certain 4 times certain objections you make might be 5 well-founded, and in this hearing everything has to 6 do with what was in her mind when she came forward 7 to make this settlement. And so it's what she 8 believed. 9 I mean, I'm not trying to suggest when I ask 10 her if you believe that, that the Church was or 11 wasn't surveilling her. It's just what she 12 believed. 13 MR. FUGATE: I -- I understand that, your 14 Honor. 15 THE COURT: And whether Fair Game was cancelled 16 or whether it wasn't cancelled, if she knew of the 17 policy and it's what she described, whether she 18 believed that that is what could and would happen if 19 they didn't back off. So I just -- just so I'm 20 clear as to why I'm letting this stuff in, okay? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I might just make 22 one final comment on what you are saying. Mmm, I 23 have been doing this work as -- basically as a paid 24 critic since 1993. And, you know, obviously I 25 wasn't frightened enough of Scientology to quit for
469 1 the last nine years. 2 What Scientology -- you know, the things that 3 are contained in this time line were not things that 4 were causing either Mr. Minton or me to want to stop 5 doing this work. 6 What caused Mr. Minton and me to stop wanting 7 to do this work is what has happened to us as a 8 result of this wrongful death case. And the perjury 9 that was about to get us both what we believed to be 10 in jail. 11 THE COURT: I understand that. And I 12 understand it clearly from what you have testified 13 to and what your affidavit said, that that is your 14 testimony. They obviously -- by they, I mean the 15 opposition in this hearing -- do not believe that. 16 And so they are exploring the truthfulness of that 17 in the way that -- that they believe. And -- 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- excuse me. I think they 19 do believe it. And I think they are trying to 20 disprove it. 21 THE COURT: Well, and I'm telling you that they 22 don't, so -- 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Let me draw your attention back to that second 25 page, the cancellation of Fair Game.
470 1 MR. FUGATE: Which page? 2 MR. LIROT: This is the second page of Exhibit 3 Number 9. 4 MR. FUGATE: Of the affidavit? 5 MR. LIROT: Not of the affidavit. It says 6 cancellation of Fair Game. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q And I guess the argument is that the policy was 9 cancelled or you said that the policy was cancelled, the 10 practice was cancelled? 11 A I think Mr. Fugate is the one that said that. 12 Q Well, your testimony was that it was cancelled or 13 disbanded or done away with and the critics just kept 14 focusing on it. Is that your testimony? 15 A Well, I -- I should say that I -- when I was in 16 Scientology, I never seen this. I didn't see it until after 17 I got out. And I began to use that policy. I was very 18 happy when I found it. And I used it beginning in 1993 when 19 I began to do this work in litigation. It clearly paints 20 Scientology in an extremely bad light. 21 Q Well, what I think it says, just that. I need to 22 ask you some questions based on your experience, and I guess 23 it says, "Cancellation of Fair Game. The practice of 24 declaring people Fair Game will cease. Fair Game may not 25 appear on any ethics order. It causes bad public
471 1 relations." I think that speaks for itself. But it says, 2 "This PL does not cancel any policy on the treatment or 3 handling of an SP." 4 What is a PL? 5 A That means policy letter. 6 Q Okay. So, "This policy letter does not cancel any 7 policy on the treatment or handling of an SP." What is an 8 SP? 9 A That is a suppressive person. In Scientology, the 10 belief is that there are people who are -- well, are 11 basically out to destroy other people or -- 12 Q SP -- 13 A You know, that there are people that are very 14 destructive. 15 Q Well, is an SP anybody that takes any stance 16 adverse to Scientology? 17 A Mmm, I -- I think that is a little bit too broad. 18 I mean, as a critic, that is how I described it. But I 19 think that is not really quite accurate. 20 THE COURT: Would you be an SP? Would you be 21 considered by the Church of Scientology an SP? 22 THE WITNESS: I think they have considered me 23 to be one. 24 THE COURT: Would Mr. Minton be considered to 25 be an SP?
472 1 THE WITNESS: I think he would have been. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q What were those policies on the treatment of 4 handling SPs that weren't cancelled? 5 A There is a whole stack of policies. I mean, where 6 do you want me to start? You know. 7 Q Well, I guess -- 8 MR. MOXON: Object, your Honor. Apparently he 9 wants to get into her interpretation of religious 10 policies now. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. This is what she 12 thought. This is all under her motive for coming 13 forward and saying what she has said. He's 14 exploring it and he's going to be allowed to explore 15 it. Overruled. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q So an SP is a suppressive person? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And I guess there is a thick packet of policies on 20 the treatment and handling of suppressive persons? 21 A Well, I'm just saying there are many, many 22 policies in Scientology that talk about -- sorry -- about 23 suppressive people. 24 Q And -- 25 A I think --
473 1 THE COURT: I'm going crazy here. I'm doing 2 the best that I can. And I'm just trying to be as 3 patient as I can, and I jump on Mr. Fugate all of 4 the time about this. You need to move into the 5 issues here. I can't do your work for you. But I 6 could roll this thing along and I could be done with 7 this witness in an hour. I could have been done 8 with their side in an hour, too. This is not a 9 discovery proceeding. 10 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 11 THE COURT: I'm not going to conduct a 12 discovery proceeding. 13 MR. LIROT: I understand. 14 THE COURT: I want you to get to the issues. I 15 know what the issues are. My God, I'm sitting up 16 here, I could ask the questions myself. Get to it. 17 MR. LIROT: All right. I'll get to it. 18 THE COURT: I mean, if you think I'm going to 19 sit here and go through a stack of stuff this big 20 already in the record somewhere, I have seen them 21 before. 22 I mean, the long and short of it is this lady 23 believed what she wrote in here. She thought it was 24 accurate. She was scared. She was as scared of 25 them as she was of me, and she wanted to settle it
474 1 with them and with me and with Baird. And you need 2 to get down to why she was afraid of them, if she 3 was, what was really going on in her head. Get to 4 it. 5 MR. LIROT: All right, I'll get to it. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Now, one question. Mr. Dandar, was he deemed an 8 SP? Would he meet the characteristics to be a suppressive 9 person? 10 A Well, you are asking me to speculate what 11 Scientology was labeling people. But I would imagine that 12 they would have considered him to be suppressive of 13 Scientology, yes. 14 Q And basically that meant all those policies and 15 treatment that they had against SPs could be used against 16 Mr. Dandar? 17 MR. FUGATE: Objection. 18 MR. MOXON: Objection. 19 A Let's qualify -- 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 A But let me just clarify something here. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q It's just a yes or no question. 24 THE COURT: I think it is. 25 THE WITNESS: What?
475 1 THE COURT: Well, I mean, I don't know but 2 that -- 3 THE WITNESS: Well, what I was going to say, 4 your Honor, is the treatment and handling of an SP, 5 for the most part what this is referring to is 6 procedures to bring a person out of that destructive 7 state of mind. There are some policies which are 8 strictly for the Office of Special Affairs where, 9 you know, they are supposed to investigate a person 10 for criminal background and expose their criminal 11 background or things like that. 12 But I just want to clarify -- and this is 13 certainly not the way -- the way I have ever 14 described it when I was working for people who were 15 on the other side of Scientology -- but what this 16 policy is actually talking about is the treatment or 17 handling of an SP. There is a lot of, you know, 18 tech, technology, in Scientology about the treatment 19 of an SP. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, I'm not particularly worried about the tech. 22 I'm worried about the -- 23 A Right, I understand. 24 Q -- the acts -- 25 A I understand that.
476 1 Q The Judge's admonition is something I'm going to 2 bring close to heart. 3 A I'm just clarifying. 4 Q Let me bring you back to the time line. 5 A I'm just clarifying what the policies are talking 6 about. 7 Q Let's explore the policies as I think they may be 8 manifest in your time line. You have an entry here on 9 October 14 that -- "October 14, 1997, Mr. Minton received a 10 call himself from Mary Frances Newey. She threatened that 11 Scientology was prepared to attack him in a number of areas 12 if he didn't stop lending his support to the critics of 13 Scientology. She told him he would be attacked in the 14 following areas: family, children, ex-wife, ex-business 15 partners, state and federal taxes." 16 What do you know about that allegation? 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you say Page 14? 18 THE WITNESS: No. No. No. 19 MR. LIROT: Page 3, October 14, 1997. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 A That is what he told me. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And he told you that is what Miss Newey told him, 24 that he was going to be attacked in those areas? 25 A Yes.
477 1 Q It seems to me that -- and at that time was there 2 any perjury that anybody was concerned with? Had there been 3 any depositions given or any -- any statements made by -- 4 A No. 5 Q -- about any agreement? 6 A Not at that time. 7 Q At that point there is already some concern on 8 Mr. Minton's part in these areas that are designated. 9 Right? Family, children, ex-wife? 10 A Well -- 11 Q He believes that. Right? 12 A Well, he -- he -- he did receive a phone call. 13 But he wasn't afraid. 14 Q I'm not asking if he was afraid. 15 A I thought that is what you said. 16 Q I'm just asking if a threat was made? 17 A A threat was made, but it didn't frighten him. 18 Q Now, the next entry on the next page, I have some 19 concerns on Page 4. You have October '97, and I think it 20 talks about Mr. Minton contacting you and -- and your 21 husband at that time, Vaughn. And then the fourth line 22 down, the first sentence says, "Through anonymous telephone 23 calls, Scientology operatives had nearly succeeded in having 24 the Youngs evicted from their house and their rescued cats 25 confiscated and killed." You didn't mention a thing about
478 1 that yesterday. 2 A That is what I was talking about when I said there 3 was an anonymous -- campaign of anonymous phone calls to 4 animal control. That didn't work. Then there was -- then 5 it was switched over to anonymous phone calls to zoning, and 6 that did succeed in having our landlord tell us that we 7 would either have to get rid of all of the cats, or we would 8 be evicted. So -- so -- 9 Q You didn't say anything about the cats being 10 killed yesterday. 11 A Well, that was what I was afraid was going to 12 happen. But, I mean, you know, I'm not saying anything 13 different than what I said here. 14 Q You didn't mention that at all yesterday. 15 A I said -- 16 Q You -- 17 A I described -- 18 THE COURT: Counselor, make the argument to me, 19 not to this witness. 20 MR. LIROT: All right. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q What was the 60 Minutes expose you talk about in 23 this paragraph? 24 A I was interviewed on -- for a 60 Minutes segment 25 that aired in December of '97. It was about Scientology,
479 1 and I was interviewed as a critic of Scientology. 2 Q And did Scientology -- were they happy about that? 3 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 4 A No. I wouldn't assume they were. It was critical 5 segment -- it was critical of Scientology. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. What did they try to do -- what did 8 they do to you to try to get you not to appear on 60 9 Minutes? 10 A Well, I felt like all of this harassment was 11 because of that. 12 Q Well, what harassment? I mean, what did they do 13 to you to get you not to appear on 60 Minutes in a position 14 that was critical to Scientology? What did they do to you? 15 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor, vague. 16 Vague. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What did the Church -- 19 THE COURT: Counselor, you know better than 20 that. When there is an objection, please give me 21 the opportunity to rule. 22 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 A Mmm, they didn't do anything that stopped the 25 show. I didn't cancel my interview, and the show aired.
480 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q That is not responsive to my question. 3 A Well, you just asked me, what did they do to stop 4 the show. 5 Q What did they do to you to get you not to appear 6 on the show? Obviously you appeared on the show? 7 A Right. 8 Q What, if anything, did they do to you to try to 9 stop that from happening? 10 A Well, it was my feeling at that time this whole 11 campaign, these anonymous phone calls, were being done by 12 Scientologists in an effort to silence me. That is how I 13 felt at the time. It didn't work. 14 Q Did anybody specifically tell you that? 15 A No. 16 Q This was just a big coincidence to you? 17 A No. 18 THE COURT: This is what she believed, 19 Counselor. She just gave you the testimony you 20 need. When you get it, move on. 21 MR. LIROT: All right. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Now, you talk on November 18, I guess, something 24 about statements made by Mr. Abelson. And I guess it talks 25 about in here, on the fifth line down, it says, "Mr. Abelson
481 1 went to state that: Association with lawbreakers such as 2 these, combined with the monetary demands that inevitably 3 accompany their involvement or similar fertile --" 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't know where you 5 are reading. 6 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, in November 18. 7 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 8 MR. LIROT: I'm trying to jump ahead. 9 THE WITNESS: It is here (indicating). 10 THE COURT: Thanks. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q I think the gist of this paragraph is they are 13 accusing Mr. Minton of fostering some climate of hatred, and 14 I guess they talk about threatening him with lawsuits and 15 things like that. 16 Did you believe all that to be true? 17 A Where is the threat of lawsuits? 18 THE COURT: You know, I guess I'm just 19 confused, Counselor, and I'm going to take a break 20 because I'm frustrated. This lady has said that she 21 believed this when she wrote it. And that, 22 therefore, you have this whole document in and you 23 can refer to it anyplace, anytime you want to. 24 I just don't get it. Why are we going through 25 each one of these things to see if she's going to
482 1 admit that she already admitted unless you want her 2 to expand on something? 3 MR. LIROT: There are some things I want her to 4 expand on. 5 THE COURT: Well, okay. 6 MR. LIROT: All right. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Let me jump ahead a little bit here. 9 THE COURT: I don't mean to push you. I 10 understand this is very serious. And I'm sorry. It 11 just seems as if you had this whole document in, and 12 that she has basically stated at the time she wrote 13 it she believed it to be accurate. And I just don't 14 know why you couldn't use it for any purpose that 15 you might want to use it. 16 So I guess I'm a touch frustrated, but I don't 17 mean to suggest you are going to annoy me enough 18 that you can't do what you want to do. It's your 19 cross-examination. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't want you to be 21 frustrated. 22 THE COURT: I'm trying not to be. I'm going to 23 lay back here and meditate and -- that is not true 24 because I'm not meditating. 25
483 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Let me fast-forward you to December 9, 1997 on 3 Page 5. 4 THE COURT: Oh, that is speed. 5 MR. MOXON: Slow forward. 6 THE COURT: That's right. We'll call that let 7 us inch along here. All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q At this blinding pace here -- 10 THE COURT: Right pace. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q It says the possible -- 13 THE COURT: Tell us where we are. 14 MR. LIROT: I'm on -- 15 THE COURT: You know where we are. 16 MR. LIROT: December 9, 1997, I'm on the second 17 entry, Judge -- 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q -- Church officials. It says, "The Boston Globe 21 printed an article entitled --" 22 THE COURT: You are doing realtime, so when you 23 have something you can read, you go real fast, but 24 it's very hard for her to take down. 25 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge.
484 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q "The Boston Globe printed an article entitled 3 'Gifts of cash fuel battle of principle' by Diego 4 Ribadeneira." It says, "The article stated, "Church 5 officials acknowledged that they have conducted their own 6 investigation into Minton's funding practices." 7 What was the investigation into Minton's funding 8 practices? What do you know about that? 9 A Mmm, I hardly met Mr. Minton at that point. I am 10 not real sure. 11 Q All right. Well, throughout this entire document 12 it seemed to me that a lot of the things that you talk 13 about, there are statements about dead cats on people's 14 doorsteps and picketing and fliers. And it looks to me like 15 there was almost an unrelenting attempt to place fliers 16 everyplace that Mr. Minton frequented, contact -- 17 MR. FUGATE: I'll just object to that as 18 argumentative. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. Plus it sounds like 20 testimony. 21 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll back up a little bit. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q There are several entries in here that talk about 24 the Church's investigation into Mr. Minton's financial 25 practices. Isn't that correct?
485 1 A Yes. 2 Q All right. I think -- 3 A Well, specifically work that he did in the late 4 '80s and early '90s before he retired. 5 Q All right. And I guess my question would be that 6 you have all these entries. Now, you met Mr. Minton when? 7 A Mmm -- 8 Q When does your personal relationship with him 9 start to the point we can figure out how close you are to 10 these facts? Because I take it before you became 11 intensively involved with Mr. Minton most of this is just 12 based on what he provided to you? 13 A Or -- 14 MR. FUGATE: Those are multiple questions 15 there. I object. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What date did you become involved with Mr. Minton? 19 A Mmm, I would say by the late spring of '98, I had 20 more of the direct knowledge. 21 Q And throughout this period of time, was -- you 22 know, from that time to the end of this time line, was it 23 your belief that Mr. Minton had private investigators 24 following him almost all of the time that had some 25 relationship with the Church of Scientology?
486 1 A Yes. 2 Q I think -- 3 A I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I missed the time frame 4 you're talking about. 5 Q From the time line, the span of this time line. 6 A Mmm, well -- 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: That wasn't the question. 8 A -- probably not the span of the time line. But 9 for a good part of it. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So were you followed by private investigators? 12 A I felt that I was. 13 Q Do you have any specific information or -- or were 14 there any overt acts that gave you an indication to believe 15 you were being followed? 16 A Well, for example, when I worked at the LMT, one 17 night I drove to my house and as I pulled my car into the 18 garage a process server swooped into my driveway and blocked 19 my car and served me papers, leading me to feel that he had 20 been sitting there waiting for me to come home. You know, 21 stuff like that. 22 Q Let me draw your attention to Page 7, the entry 23 next to last, January 23rd, 1998. It says, "Scientology 24 private investigators and OSA operatives launched a campaign 25 to harass and intimidate Mr. Minton's friends and former
487 1 business associates not only in the United States but also 2 in England, Turkey, Brazil, Nigeria, Switzerland, South 3 Africa and Hong Kong. This campaign would continue over the 4 next three years and would result in further isolating 5 Mr. Minton from his friends and associates." 6 How did that work? What led you to put that entry 7 in there? 8 A There was a private investigator who I believe was 9 based in London who was contacting Mr. Minton's friends and 10 business -- former business associates and interviewing them 11 for information about Mr. Minton, you know. I had reason to 12 believe -- he had reason to believe and told me -- that 13 people had been contacted in those different countries as 14 part of this investigation of Mr. Minton. 15 Q And what led you to put that in there? 16 A Well, what do you mean? 17 Q I mean, how extensive was this investigation? How 18 many -- how many private investigators are we talking about 19 here? 20 A We didn't know. We weren't sure. But it seemed 21 to be a team of them. 22 Q And they contacted all of Mr. Minton's business 23 associates? 24 A Well, a number of them. 25 Q And they contacted his wife -- it appears to be
488 1 all over the world, followed his wife everywhere she went, 2 Spain, England? 3 A Mmm, yeah. He felt that she was being followed. 4 She was -- she was in England at one point and was -- and a 5 letter was hand-delivered to her to the house where she was 6 staying. 7 Q So it was more than a feeling. There was clear 8 indication that they were following his family all over the 9 world; they're talking to his business partners all over the 10 world. Isn't that all true? 11 A Oh, I didn't -- 12 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. I assume 13 for all of these questions that everything that 14 doesn't include personal knowledge, it's all 15 speculation, her belief? Obviously every question 16 calls for hearsay and speculation and -- 17 THE COURT: It has to do with her belief, that 18 is right. And really hers and Mr. Minton's, if, in 19 fact, they discussed it and she knows this is one of 20 the things that concerned him. 21 MR. MOXON: I object then on hearsay as to what 22 she believes his belief is. 23 THE COURT: Well, since her belief is what the 24 issue here is as far as what her state of mind was 25 when she made this statement -- these statements,
489 1 that is overruled. 2 A To answer your question, I don't -- I didn't mean 3 to imply that it was just a feeling. We were -- Mr. Minton 4 was very angry about it and so was I. It certainly didn't 5 frighten us. It angered us. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. Let me draw your attention to Page 8 8 and the entry on the -- the last entry on that page. I'm 9 going to draw your attention four lines from the bottom -- 10 five lines. I guess you typed this statement. It says, "By 11 now Scientology was publishing outrageous lies about 12 Mr. Minton in an attempt to goad him into filing suit 13 against them." 14 THE COURT: It says "apparently," right? 15 MR. LIROT: Yes, that is correct, Judge. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q "By now Scientology was publishing outrageous lies 18 about Mr. Minton, apparently in an attempt to goad him into 19 filing suit against them. However, several experienced 20 attorneys advised Mr. Minton not to sue as Scientology would 21 use the litigation to further harass him and exhaust his 22 financial resources, ultimately forcing him to cease his 23 outspoken criticism." 24 Is that what happened here? Is it -- is it -- 25 A What?
490 1 Q -- is Mr. Minton -- are you and Mr. Minton trying 2 to get this resolved so that he doesn't lose his money? 3 A No. In fact -- in fact, I would have to say that 4 at every -- every time -- each one of these entries 5 represents an incident or an experience that -- that had the 6 absolute opposite effect on us from -- from getting us to 7 want to stop this work. 8 Every time something happened it made us -- and 9 Mr. Minton for sure -- angrier and angrier, and he -- and he 10 became absolutely -- he absolutely wanted more and more and 11 more to go after Scientology because -- as a result of all 12 of the things that I'm talking about in here. 13 You know, it did not have the effect of 14 frightening him, and it didn't have the effect of 15 frightening me, and it is not how come we are now recanting 16 our perjury. 17 Q I understand that is your statement. But let me 18 draw your attention to Page 10. Your entry for May and July 19 of 1998. The lower half of the page. It says, "From May to 20 July 1998 Mr. Minton had a series of three meetings 21 totalling 15 hours with two of the top leaders of 22 Scientology. He hoped to enter into a dialogue about ending 23 Scientology's criminal conduct, including fraud, practicing 24 medicine without a license, child abuse and human rights 25 violations.
491 1 "He met with Mike Rinder, the head of OSA 2 International, and Marty Rathbun, head of the Religious 3 Technology Center and second in command of Scientology under 4 its dictator, David Miscavige. Unfortunately, the 5 Scientologists had no interest in discussing their criminal 6 conduct. Their interest was solely to convince Mr. Minton 7 to stop providing funds to Scientology critics. They told 8 Mr. Minton point-blank that if he would quit giving 9 financial support to critics, Scientology would stop 10 harassing and intimidating Mr. Minton and his friends and 11 family. 12 "At the end of the third meeting, Mr. Minton made 13 it clear he would not stop his financial support until 14 Scientology ceased destroying peoples' lives through fraud 15 and criminal abuse. In response, the Scientologists 16 intensified their campaign against him." 17 Were you in any of those meetings with Mr. Minton? 18 A Yes, I was at the first one. 19 Q All right. Tell me about that meeting. Where did 20 it take place? 21 A In Los Angeles. At -- at a building called the 22 Manor, where the Celebrity Center is. 23 Q I take it this happened between May and July of 24 '98. Was this in May of 1998? 25 A Mmm, the one I went to was in May. Yeah.
492 1 Q All right. Who set up the meeting? 2 A Mmm, Mr. Minton. 3 Q All right. And how did he get in touch with the 4 people that attended the meeting? 5 A Mmm, I think he called Mr. Rinder, if I'm not 6 mistaken. I don't remember exactly. 7 Q What was -- what was his desire in calling these 8 meetings? 9 A Mmm -- 10 THE COURT: Go ahead. 11 THE WITNESS: Me? 12 THE COURT: No, I would wonder why we wouldn't 13 be talking about the meetings involved in this case, 14 though, rather than meetings in 1998. She already 15 indicated this is what she -- I mean -- I mean, what 16 is it we're trying to gain out of this, this 17 questioning regarding this? 18 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think there is a 19 pattern here that has developed. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, do you think that those 22 meetings were an attempt to settle? That is not 23 true. Mr. Minton kind of considered himself at that 24 time to be a spokesman for the critic community. 25 And he thought that it would be useful to sit down
493 1 with the leaders of the Scientology and basically 2 communicate a list of the critics' grievances and 3 try to have dialogue with them about these things. 4 It certainly wasn't anything to do with -- I 5 mean, absolutely -- that is not the reason these 6 meetings happened was for any kind of attempt on 7 Mr. Minton's part to settle with Scientology. In 8 fact -- 9 THE COURT: You have responded. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Let me draw your attention to August 24, 1998, on 13 Page 13. And the last full paragraph on Page 13. It says, 14 "In one of the first indications that Scientology -- that 15 Scientology was investigating Mr. Minton's work in Nigeria, 16 the flier stated: 'Minton and Smith did business in 17 Nigeria. Minton made a lot of his money, he says, by 18 helping the country's dictatorial leaderships to 19 successfully default on multi-million dollar loans. 20 Everyone with the inside knowledge benefited but as events 21 and statistics showed, the people suffered. While millions 22 were siphoned off in 'commissions' and lenders had to write 23 off huge losses, the leaders of the country completely 24 ignored the human suffering and misery of its citizens. Is 25 this how a man of principal acts?"
494 1 What indications did Mr. Minton relate to you 2 about the Church checking into any of his financial 3 dealings? 4 A Mmm, well, I think I just said before that there 5 was an investigation in which, you know, people that he 6 worked with were interviewed -- or contacted, you know, 7 things like that. 8 Q Well, on Page 16 you talk about on September 28, 9 1998, about Mr. Franks' meeting with Mr. Smith. Who is 10 Mr. Smith? 11 A He was one of Mr. Minton's former partners. 12 THE COURT: You have gone ahead of me now. 13 Page 16 is what? 14 MR. LIROT: Page 16 on the top, Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q September 28, 1998. It says, "Peter Franks, a 18 British private investigator hired by Scientology, spread 19 the word to many of Therese Minton's friends in England and 20 to Mr. Minton's former business partner, Jeff Schmidt, 21 that --" 22 A It is Therese. 23 Q Therese, I'm sorry "-- that Therese, the Mintons' 24 two daughters, and Mr. Schmidt were going to be followed in 25 order to bring pressure on Mr. Minton to stop his policies
495 1 concerning Scientology." 2 What happened to make you put that statement in 3 there? 4 A Well, I think it speaks for itself. It certainly 5 infuriated Mr. Minton and Therese. And it -- it had the 6 opposite effect on Mr. Minton, I can assure you. 7 Q It says in the next paragraph that Mr. Schmidt's 8 office had been picketed and leafletted at this point for 9 several weeks. How many locations were picketed? This time 10 line, that you can recall? If you could just give me a 11 list, because obviously the Judge will not be patient with 12 me asking about every one of them. 13 A You mean by us or by Scientology? 14 Q By Scientology. 15 A Oh. Well, they were kind of picketing in 16 retaliation of our picketing, as far as I could tell. Every 17 time Mr. Minton would picket, then they would picket. You 18 know, it was like Judge Penick called it, picket -- 19 THE COURT: What -- 20 A I think Judge Penick called it picket chicken. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Did you picket in England? 23 THE COURT: I might call it counterproductive 24 to both sides. 25 THE WITNESS: I think I would agree with you on
496 1 that, your Honor. I never did like that 2 picketing -- 3 THE COURT: I don't think it speaks well for 4 anybody, to tell you the truth. 5 THE WITNESS: Neither do I. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Did you -- did you ever picket in England? Did 8 Mr. Minton ever picket in England? 9 A No, not in England. This is Jeff Schmidt's house 10 in New Hampshire. 11 Q So all of the pickets and leaflets and fliers and 12 all of the rest of that was all isolated to the United 13 States? 14 A Mmm, I think there was some fliers handed out when 15 we were in Germany. 16 Q Well, it appears here that there were some times 17 where that Mr. Minton's -- I guess the farmhouse would be 18 picketed or that -- 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- you would be harassed for days on end? 21 THE COURT: Are you trying to get the lady to 22 say one of the things she wanted to do was get 23 Scientology off her back? I think she would say 24 that. 25 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge --
497 1 THE COURT: If that is what your point is. So 2 you are able to lead here. You can lead, suggest 3 the answers and see if you can get it. If you 4 can't, you can move right on. 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm really -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you know, go ahead. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q I want to draw your attention to the second 9 paragraph of September 28, 1998. It says, "Mr. Schmidt's 10 office had been picketed and leafletted at this point for 11 several weeks, as had his home where his wife and children 12 were there. Franks threatened to go after Mr. Schmidt's 13 clients, one of which was the Nigerian government. 14 "Franks said they would arrange picketing of the 15 Nigerian delegation to the International Monetary Fund 16 meeting in Washington, D.C. which was set for October 4 17 through 8 of next month. Franks promised Mr. Schmidt would 18 be caught in a web of IRS tax investigation of Mr. Minton 19 and in his own problems with the England Revenue Service, 20 England's equivalent of the IRS." 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I missed what you were 22 reading from. I didn't want to interrupt you. Tell 23 me the page. 24 MR. LIROT: Page 16, second paragraph under the 25 September 28, 1998 heading.
498 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q The Church oftentimes would threaten Mr. Minton 4 with IRS investigations. Is that correct? 5 A Mmm, well, the -- what was happening was more 6 like -- 7 THE COURT: Now, that needs to be a yes or no, 8 ma'am. 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. 10 A No. But I can explain if you want me to. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, it seems the time line statement seems a 13 little different than that answer. You can explain. 14 A Well, this -- this guy Franks was really nasty, 15 and he was going around threatening all kinds of things. 16 And it just infuriated Mr. Minton. 17 Q What kind of things was he threatening? 18 A Well, like it says here. You know, what you just 19 read. 20 Q IRS tax investigation? 21 A Oh, that. Mmm, you know, this thing about he was 22 going to go after Mr. Schmidt's clients, that they were 23 going to -- you know, go after the Nigerian government to 24 stop his work with them. I mean -- 25 THE COURT: What was his work with the Nigerian
499 1 government? 2 THE WITNESS: Mr. Schmidt? 3 THE COURT: No, Mr. Minton. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, well, Mr. Minton is retired. 5 But -- and this stuff that he's talking about here 6 for the September 28 thing that I wrote had to do 7 with Mr. Schmidt's work. 8 THE COURT: I see. Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: And, you know, it's some sort of 10 financial work. I don't know exactly. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, wasn't there a debate at some point in time 13 about Mr. Minton's involvement with the Nigerian government? 14 A Yeah. That -- I don't know where that entry is. 15 Oh, I think it was -- 16 Q It's on Page. 30, it looks like June 11, 2000 on 17 Page 30? 18 A Yes, it was in the summer of 2000. Yes, there 19 was. There was a big -- it wasn't -- it wasn't exactly a 20 debate. It was -- it was -- Mmm, it was an opportunity for 21 Mr. Minton -- he was invited to address a number of people 22 at Howard University about the whole Nigeria thing because 23 this big report had come out accusing Mr. Minton of a lot 24 of -- well, criminal stuff, basically that wasn't true, and 25 he went to -- and talked with all these people and gave them
500 1 all kinds of documents and explained the work and all that 2 kind of stuff. 3 Q But they were threatening Mr. Minton about 4 criminal transactions involving international monetary 5 exchanges and things like that? 6 A No, they weren't threatening. They were accusing 7 it. They were saying it. They weren't threatening. 8 Q They were accusing him and threatening him to take 9 action, right? 10 A No. They were taking action. I mean, it wasn't 11 threats. It was happening. 12 THE COURT: Who is they there? Who is the 13 they? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, people that were working 15 for Scientology is what we thought. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Let me draw your attention to Page 32, the 19 June 23rd -- 20 THE COURT: What action were they taking about 21 this? 22 THE WITNESS: Well -- 23 THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel, just for a 24 second. 25 THE WITNESS: First of all, they had -- I mean,
501 1 we have reason to believe that it was Scientology, 2 so I'll just put it in those terms. But, you know, 3 there had been this whole investigation that had 4 been going on about Mr. Minton, like we talked 5 about, you know, where people were interviewed and 6 stuff like that. And then this whole big report was 7 put together by this guy John Fashanu in which 8 Mr. Minton was implicated in things that -- criminal 9 things that the dictator of Nigeria, Abacha, had 10 done. But Mr. Minton's work was over before Abacha 11 ever came to power. So Mr. Minton was trying to set 12 the record straight on all this stuff when he went 13 to Howard University. 14 THE COURT: What were the allegations, I guess 15 I'm saying? What illegal things did they think he 16 had done? 17 THE WITNESS: They were saying he was money 18 laundering. And other things. But -- 19 THE COURT: Right. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, and that was described in what was known as 22 the fashion report, isn't that correct? 23 A Right. 24 Q What was the Fashanu report? 25 A It was -- well, first of all, I have never seen
502 1 it. But it's been described in the newspaper articles. 2 Like I just said, John Fashanu said that -- 3 THE COURT: Can you spell that for me, Fashanu? 4 A Yes. It is F-A-S-H -- I think it is 5 F-A-S-H-A-N-U, Fashanu. He's a Nigerian soccer player, sort 6 of a celebrity sports figure in England. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q And he's a Scientologist, too, right? 9 A Not that I know of. 10 THE COURT: This Fashanu report, I'm sorry, 11 maybe I misunderstood, did you believe the Church of 12 Scientology was behind that report? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: And in that report that you thought 15 somehow the Church of Scientology had something to 16 do with, they accused Mr. Minton of racketeering 17 using illegal gains to launder it through legitimate 18 business? Is that sort of what they were accusing 19 him of? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. They were accusing him 21 basically of -- you know, I might not get this 22 exactly right but basically working with this 23 dictator to launder funds out of Nigeria. 24 THE COURT: Money laundering in whatever form 25 it is, being an illegal activity.
503 1 THE WITNESS: Right. 2 THE COURT: Because they were not saying this 3 was legal; they were saying this was illegal money 4 laundering? 5 THE WITNESS: Right. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: And, of course, Mr. Minton said 8 that it was totally not true. And, you know, this 9 was particularly infuriating to Mr. Minton because 10 of the fact that he's very proud of the work he did. 11 And he feels very strongly to this day, I'm sure 12 he'll tell you this, too, that the work he did was 13 really good for the country. And again as I said, 14 he wasn't even doing any work by the time Abacha 15 came to power. 16 So, you know, this really made him mad that 17 this was being done. You know, it was almost as if 18 the thing that he was most proud of was being hit, 19 really made him mad. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q They sent out a bunch of fliers in Germany 22 accusing Mr. Minton of being a money launderer? 23 THE COURT: What time did we start this 24 morning? I have a contract with my court reporter. 25 MR. WEINBERG: 9:30.
504 1 THE COURT: We'll take a little break because 2 she needs it. We'll be in recession for 15 minutes. 3 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 4 THE COURT: I'll try to break for lunch about 5 12:30. Continue on. 6 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Ms. Brooks -- 9 THE COURT: By the way, Counselor, I notice -- 10 I think what the rules are for a witness on the 11 stand, I'm being gracious here in allowing her to 12 confer with you. I don't think she has that right. 13 I don't want to exclude her overnight or for a long 14 break, but during the breaks you should not be 15 talking with her. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, may we approach, Mr. Lirot 17 and I, on a separate issue? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Bench conference had off the record.) 20 THE COURT: All right, continue on, please. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Ms. Brooks, I was asking you some questions about 23 contact between Church investigators or -- and I guess in 24 here you refer to some of these people as OSA operatives. 25 What is an OSA operative?
505 1 A Well, that is my word for anybody who was involved 2 in any of these investigations. 3 Q All right. And Mr. Schmidt was Mr. Minton's 4 business partner? 5 A His former partner. Yes. 6 Q And I guess did his wife leave him over all of the 7 harassment that Scientologists or somebody related to 8 Scientology gave him? 9 A Who? 10 Q Mr. Schmidt's wife? 11 A Not that I know of. 12 Q Did Mr. Schmidt ultimately have to pay some taxes 13 that he didn't pay as a result of harassment or anything 14 that Scientology did to him? 15 MR. FUGATE: I'll object -- 16 THE COURT: Counselor -- 17 MR. FUGATE: -- speculation. 18 THE COURT: I don't think you can assume he 19 paid taxes because of harassment. He may have had 20 to pay taxes because he owed it. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Did they find out Mr. Schmidt owed a lot of tax? 23 Do you know if Mr. Schmidt had to make tax payments for 24 taxes he didn't make prior? 25 A I'm not aware of that.
506 1 Q Were you aware that I guess Mr. Minton's daughter 2 had flown -- how old are his daughters? 3 A Mmm, at this point they are 14 and 16. 4 Q Obviously they were in their early teens or I 5 guess 11, 12, a couple years ago? 6 A You can do the math. 7 Q Were you aware that Mr. Minton's daughters were 8 followed at some point when they went to have a visit on 9 Long Island? 10 A I believe it's in the time line, isn't it? 11 THE COURT: The question was, are you aware of 12 that, ma'am? 13 THE WITNESS: I believe one of his daughters 14 was. Or at least he thought she was. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Do you have any reason to believe that that is not 17 true? 18 A Mmm -- 19 Q You don't know? 20 A You know, at this point I'm sort of out of the 21 business. So whether it's true or not, I don't really know. 22 Q All right. 23 THE COURT: But you believed it at the time you 24 wrote the time line? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, I believe it is in
507 1 the time line. And -- and -- you know, yeah. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. I think I'm going to -- did Mr. Minton 4 have to give up a partnership or an interest in an 5 automobile dealership because his partners were upset at all 6 of the -- I guess the attention he was getting from 7 Scientology? 8 A No. They were upset about -- 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, could we hold on for a 10 second. I'm having trouble hearing. I think they 11 may be breaking or something. 12 THE COURT: I think maybe the jurors -- don't 13 say anything, Mr. Bailiff. I can't stand it when 14 the judge sends somebody out to quiet a crowd. 15 It -- 16 MR. FUGATE: I didn't mean for that to happen. 17 THE COURT: But I can't stand it for judges 18 sending somebody out to say, "Keep it down." 19 MR. FUGATE: I have been there before. 20 THE COURT: I have, too. My secretary and I 21 might be frivolous about something and the judges 22 would come out and tell me to be quiet. 23 MR. FUGATE: I can hear. 24 THE COURT: Madam court reporter, repeat that 25 question if you would.
508 1 THE REPORTER: "Question: All right. I think 2 I'm going to -- did Mr. Minton have to give up a 3 partnership or an interest in an automobile 4 dealership because his partners were upset at all of 5 the -- I guess the attention he was getting from 6 Scientology?" 7 A I believe they were upset because they got 8 picketed, if I recall correctly. And they did ask him to 9 let them buy him out. And he did let them buy him out. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Okay. So they were certainly successful in that 12 attempt to limit Mr. Minton's financial dealings. Right? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 15 argumentative. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What about any of the other of his business 19 friends? Did they become alienated from him because of all 20 of the controversy between he and the Church of Scientology? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q How many friends wouldn't speak with him anymore 23 after all of this, you know, the events you describe in the 24 time line? 25 A I don't know how many. But --
509 1 Q Two? Ten? All of them? 2 A Well, Mr. Minton felt that his friends wanted to 3 distance themselves from him. You know, how many friends, I 4 don't know. But he felt that his friends wanted to do that. 5 Q Did Mr. Minton have emotional breakdowns 6 throughout all of this, I guess what I'll say, the events 7 that you described in the time line? 8 A Emotional breakdowns? I don't know -- I'm not 9 sure if you would characterize it that way, but it certainly 10 made him extremely upset and got him very mad. 11 Q How about were there any events where he would 12 cry, where he would show that he was just basically breaking 13 down from all of this? 14 A He cried on several occasions with me. But as I 15 said, just -- I can't tell you how furious it made him. And 16 how determined it made him to fight these people. 17 Q Was there an event where Mr. Dandar and you were 18 with Mr. Minton in your house and he basically broke down 19 because all of the pressure that was being exerted on him? 20 A Oh, Mr. Dandar. Yes, there was. He was very 21 upset. 22 Q And that was because of all this pressure that was 23 coming to bear on him. Right? 24 A You know, by the time that meeting was happening, 25 I can't remember when that meeting was. Do you remember,
510 1 Mr. Dandar? 2 THE COURT: Well, he can't say. You just have 3 to just remember the meeting, whenever it was. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q It would have occurred in your house on Belleair 6 Beach -- 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- at some point in time? 9 A Yeah. I think -- you know, I don't recall 10 exactly, but I believe that by that time what he was getting 11 upset about was the discovery that was happening I'm not 12 sure about that. But it certainly wasn't this Scientology 13 harassment, I can tell you, it wasn't that. 14 Now, Mr. Dandar, you know, is going like this at 15 me (indicating) but that is -- 16 Q Well, you keep mentioning all your concerns about 17 this discovery. And both you and Mr. Minton were real 18 concerned about the discovery for the LMT. Right? 19 A Well -- 20 Q What -- just generally what did you understand 21 these discovery demands to be of you? What was the Church 22 looking for in their discovery demands that caused you 23 concern? 24 A Mmm, well, you want to talk about Mr. Minton? Or 25 me?
511 1 Q You first. 2 A Okay. You know, they were asking me -- I think I 3 said this before. But they were asking me questions about 4 the agreement. 5 Q We already know about this agreement. And I know 6 that is of concern to you. 7 THE COURT: That is what I was suggesting that 8 perhaps if you have something specific in mind, 9 she's going to talk about the agreement, she's going 10 to talk about the perjury. She's done it over and 11 over. If you have something else in mind, why don't 12 you ask her if this was also of concern. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q What about your bank records? 15 A My bank records? 16 Q You didn't want -- you didn't want anybody getting 17 a hold of LMT's bank records, did you? 18 A I didn't -- there wasn't anything in LMT's bank 19 records that I minded. 20 THE COURT: Well, they certainly weren't 21 produced. Were they? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, no, your Honor. And 23 basically we weren't producing -- you know, I was 24 not wanting to have to produce anything to 25 Scientology.
512 1 THE COURT: Well, there must be some reason for 2 that. If somebody doesn't want to produce the bank 3 records, there must be something they don't want 4 somebody to see. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, there wasn't 6 anything, in particular. In fact, they ended up 7 getting the records. And I don't know if you have 8 seen them, but there wasn't anything in the records 9 that hadn't already been testified to in deposition. 10 Mmm -- Mmm -- 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, Mr. Minton didn't want them getting a hold 13 of his bank records. Did they? 14 A No. He felt it was a violation of his privacy. 15 And, you know, the other thing that was happening, and I 16 think this was unfortunate, was that some of the legal 17 advice that he and I were both getting was in the direction 18 of not complying with some discovery, rather than being 19 counselled to comply. 20 Q Well, you had Mr. Merrett as your attorney. 21 Right? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Mr. Merrett represented the Lisa McPherson Trust. 24 Right? 25 A Yes. For a certain amount of time.
513 1 Q And he represented Mr. Minton at that time, too, 2 didn't he? 3 A Mmm, during a certain period of time, he did, yes. 4 Q And isn't it true that you were with Mr. Minton, 5 you had your deposition taken by Mr. Moxon? 6 A Several times. 7 Q Okay. Forget about the agreement and the check. 8 Didn't Mr. Moxon ask you questions about money laundering 9 and tax evasion, tax fraud? Wasn't that a common theme in 10 all of these depositions that you were taking? 11 A Mmm, he might have asked me those questions. I 12 think he asked Mr. Minton those questions a lot more than he 13 did me. 14 Q But there was a theme, wasn't it? 15 A In my depositions? 16 Q In -- 17 A I don't believe so. 18 Q In all these monetary transactions wasn't there a 19 line of questioning that basically went into whether or not 20 Mr. Minton had committed any crimes such as money 21 laundering, tax evasion? Wasn't that an evident theme 22 throughout all of these depositions? 23 A You're talking about Mr. Minton's depositions? 24 Q Sure. Okay. Sure. 25 A I -- I don't know how many times he was asked
514 1 questions like that. 2 Q Do you understand -- 3 THE COURT: Let's put it this way. Did he ever 4 talk to you and -- expressing his concerns that he 5 thought that there were allegations being made by 6 the Church of Scientology, either them or their 7 lawyers or agents, that he was guilty of money 8 laundering, true, or not? I'm mean, I'm not saying 9 if it was true or not, but wasn't that a worry? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, it -- it was -- 11 I wouldn't characterize it as a worry. He was very 12 upset about it. In fact, he sued Scientology in 13 Germany for libel for the things they were saying 14 about him in Nigeria. 15 THE COURT: So he didn't have a care in the 16 world or worry about that threat or that allegation 17 or that suggestion? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, you mean -- if what you are 19 asking is was he afraid he was going to get caught 20 at something, absolutely not. As I said, he went to 21 Howard University and he spread all these papers out 22 all over the place. He spent hours explaining to 23 these people exactly -- 24 THE COURT: Who are these people? 25 THE WITNESS: The people that were at this --
515 1 well, it was supposed to be a debate, but John 2 Fashanu didn't show up so it just ended up being 3 Mr. Minton spending hours with a large audience of 4 people from Nigeria explaining exactly what his debt 5 buyback work was all about. 6 He -- he -- I mean, in my experience, without 7 any question or doubt in my mind, Mr. Minton has -- 8 considers that he has nothing to hide about that 9 work that he did. 10 THE COURT: Well, and so does the Church think 11 they have nothing to hide about your concerns and 12 your -- your -- in other words, they don't believe 13 what you say is true. He may not believe what they 14 say is true. But there is no question, in looking 15 at those depositions, they're suggesting that there 16 is something there to be looked at regarding money 17 laundering. 18 THE WITNESS: You're right about that. 19 THE COURT: And I presume that concerned him. 20 THE WITNESS: No. You know, it would only 21 concern him if he was guilty of it. 22 THE COURT: Well, I don't know, as I understand 23 it, from reading your time line and this and that, 24 the fact that the lawsuits can be brought, 25 suggestions can be made, can cost an awful lot of
516 1 money for somebody to prove their innocence. I have 2 been in the criminal field. And it takes a lot of 3 money to get yourself out of the -- out of civil 4 RICO charge involving money laundering. It takes a 5 lot of money to pay a lawyer to defend you if those 6 kinds of things are brought. 7 Surely this businessman, worth a lot of money, 8 wasn't concerned about those types of thoughts. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, does he want to be spending 10 money on defending himself legally? Absolutely not. 11 I mean, nobody in their right mind would want to 12 spend their money that way. The only point I'm 13 trying to make is Scientology -- I think they -- 14 they believe, and they may still believe, I don't 15 now -- that Mr. Minton is guilty of money 16 laundering. But I can tell you -- 17 THE COURT: Well, that is not the point. You 18 can tell us that he is or he isn't, that isn't the 19 point. 20 It is like I'm trying to suggest to everybody 21 here. Truth is not really the issue here. It is 22 kind of odd, but it really isn't. The question was 23 whether he was guilty of money laundering or whether 24 he wasn't. It is -- the thread of some of the 25 questions on the deposition is they thought a
517 1 lawsuit might be brought for civil RICO, which would 2 bring him to court to answer to that charge. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, and certainly he didn't want 4 that to happen. If that is the question, did he 5 want that to happen, of course not. 6 THE COURT: It would cost a lot of money to 7 defend. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Whether he prevailed or didn't. 10 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 11 THE COURT: Of course in the legal system 12 nothing is perfect, so even if he thought he was 13 totally innocent he didn't know exactly what a jury 14 might do. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, he certainly wouldn't want 16 to be sued for RICO, if that is your question. No, 17 he would not want to be sued for RICO. 18 THE COURT: And he wouldn't want some State 19 Attorney to look at it to see whether the State 20 Attorney might want to bring criminal charges. 21 THE WITNESS: No, I'm sure he wouldn't. 22 THE COURT: As I said, the system is the 23 system. It works pretty good and most of the time 24 justice prevails. But anybody that has ever been 25 involved in the system knows it is not a perfect
518 1 system. 2 THE WITNESS: You bet. 3 THE COURT: And it costs a lot of money to 4 defend criminally and civilly, racketeering and 5 money laundering. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: I read these depositions and I 8 would see these periodically -- these questions 9 being asked. And surely he's a smart enough man 10 to -- to see what is being asked and -- 11 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I mean, I used 12 to say they're trying -- they have four different 13 vectors they are trying to go after him on, it was 14 pretty clear to me, from the questions. 15 THE COURT: What were those four? 16 THE WITNESS: Mmm, money laundering, tax 17 evasion, terrorism for, you know, hate crimes and 18 things like that, and RICO. Those four things. 19 And, you know, it was pretty clear to him and it was 20 pretty clear to me. 21 THE COURT: And some of those not only provide 22 big civil awards, but some of those provide a lot of 23 jail time. Those are serious crimes. 24 THE WITNESS: You bet, that's right. 25 THE COURT: So Mr. Minton was petrified of a
519 1 maximum sentence of 5 months and 29 days, which is 2 all a criminal contempt can bring, surely was 3 petrified about putting his hands in a jury for 4 money laundering, racketeering, terrorism -- and 5 what was the other one? 6 THE WITNESS: RICO. 7 THE COURT: RICO, I presume. 8 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 9 THE COURT: That would certainly be a motive 10 for settling and put all this at rest. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would be a motive for 12 settling. It doesn't happen to have been his motive 13 for settling. But -- but for sure he doesn't want 14 to get entangled in any kind of legal problems 15 because of Scientology. There is no question about 16 that. 17 THE COURT: And he discussed that with you, I 18 take it? I mean, you all talked about that? 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, well, to the extent that -- 20 yeah. Just only to the extent of saying, you know, 21 I can't believe this, terrorism? Give me a break. 22 You know. And just -- just how frustrating it was 23 that they were trying to do this. But, you know, 24 they've been trying to do this since, well, 1998. 25 THE COURT: It hadn't really stopped, had it,
520 1 at the time you went to meet with Scientology? 2 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, I didn't think it would 3 ever stop. 4 THE COURT: It would stop if you settled, 5 though, wouldn't it? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, we -- I think everything 7 would stop if we settled. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: But I'm just saying that it 10 hadn't given Mr. Minton a motive to settle for the 11 last four or five years, you know. And it wasn't 12 what ended up having him -- getting him to call 13 Mr. Rinder in -- whenever he did. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, let me ask you this. Wasn't there a charge 16 prepared -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q -- alleging that Mr. Minton was himself a 19 racketeer of some fashion? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What do you know about that chart? 22 A Well, I was actually in the courtroom when it 23 happened. Mr. Rosen -- it was a hearing in the Grady Ward 24 bankruptcy case. And Mr. Rosen, who is one of the 25 Scientology's attorneys, was trying to convince the court
521 1 that -- that the court should let Scientology go after 2 Mr. Minton for Grady Ward's judgment -- Mmm, there was a -- 3 I don't remember what you call it, but, you know, they had a 4 settlement agreement and Scientology was claiming that he 5 violated it. And there was -- what do you call that when 6 you have to pay money if you violate the settlement? 7 Whatever. 8 Q A liquidated damage? 9 A Yeah, yeah. It was -- yeah. 10 Q But he was -- a chart showing a whole lot more 11 than that? There was a whole chart saying, "Mr. Minton, we 12 think you are committing racketeering and here is the proof, 13 here is what we think shows you are a racketeer"? 14 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, I object to the 15 testimony, and argumentative. 16 THE COURT: I'll allow it. Overruled. 17 A That is not what happened. What happened, 18 Mr. Minton wasn't there. But Mr. Rosen produced this chart, 19 and it had Mr. Minton in the middle and then LMT and me and 20 all of the different other people that he funded around. 21 And it was called, you know, enterprise. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And that is a word used with racketeering. Right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Criminal enterprise?
522 1 A Yes. 2 Q As far as the LMT goes, LMT never gave any money 3 to fund the wrongful death case, did they? 4 A No. 5 Q Not one penny, not one check was issued from the 6 LMT? 7 A No. 8 Q So why would your concern about those bank records 9 have any bearing on the wrongful death case? 10 A What? 11 Q Why would your concern about turning over those 12 bank records have any bearing on whatever harm -- I guess 13 your testimony was you didn't want to hurt the wrongful 14 death case. How would that have any impact on the wrongful 15 death case? 16 A Mmm, I think my testimony was -- I didn't say that 17 all my discovery problems -- I wasn't trying to blame all my 18 discovery things on the wrongful death case. 19 The issues that came up with regard to the 20 wrongful death case were the perjury. 21 THE COURT: Well, ma'am, the question was about 22 the bank records, so let's get back to the back 23 records. 24 THE WITNESS: Right. The discovery evasion I 25 got involved in was for a bit of a different --
523 1 THE COURT: No, the question was since LMT paid 2 no money to fund the wrongful death claim, none, 3 what was the concern that you had over turning over 4 LMT's bank records to, in essence, the Church of 5 Scientology, as -- 6 THE WITNESS: Well, there was sort of a general 7 climate of wanting to stonewall all discovery. That 8 was kind of -- not all discovery but all -- well, 9 you know, turning over things. And, I mean, I'm 10 afraid what we were doing was refusing to turn over 11 almost everything to them. 12 THE COURT: Well, why? Why? 13 THE WITNESS: Mmm, because basically 14 Mr. Merrett and I and Mr. Minton didn't feel like 15 they were justified in asking for these things. 16 THE COURT: And I can understand that and I can 17 understand that probably anybody that has a court 18 compel their bank records be turned over feels like 19 the court has invaded their privacy and it's a lousy 20 order. That is besides the point. Once it is 21 ordered it has to be done. You all defied an order. 22 THE WITNESS: We defied several. 23 THE COURT: Sure. And so I would have to 24 assume to defy a court order which could indeed 25 bring another contempt of court, there had to be
524 1 some concern about turning it over. I mean, beyond 2 just the privacy. You lost that. Either you were 3 worried about you had not paid enough taxes or you 4 were worried about what Scientology might do if they 5 got those records or something along those lines, or 6 maybe I'm just crazy. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think you are 8 crazy, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Well, what was the worry? That is 10 what we're trying to find out. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, what Scientology would do 12 with the information. 13 THE COURT: I suggest you had not paid all your 14 taxes. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, we had. 16 THE COURT: I'm not asking you that. Did you 17 have a concern they would try to use these records 18 to show that you had evaded some income taxes? 19 Trust taxes? Whatever that was, I don't -- 20 THE WITNESS: Well, I was concerned that they 21 would use the records in some bad way. 22 THE COURT: In some bad way? 23 THE WITNESS: That was unspecified in my mind. 24 You know, I was concerned that they would use any 25 information that I turned over in some bad way.
525 1 THE COURT: To -- okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q You -- 4 A That was a separate issue. 5 Q Well, you dissolved the Lisa McPherson Trust? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you dissolved it because you found out you 8 couldn't take the Fifth Amendment as head of a not -- a 9 for-profit corporation? 10 A That's right. 11 Q And you wanted to take the Fifth Amendment, you 12 didn't want to answer any of those questions, because you 13 thought they would incriminate you, right? That is what the 14 Fifth Amendment is all about. Right? 15 A Well, I was already -- I had already perjured 16 myself and I didn't want to have that happen anymore. Also, 17 the time -- the reason we dissolved the LMT was at the same 18 time as Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that we weren't going -- 19 that he wasn't going to fund the case anymore, that we had 20 Jesse Prince resign as a witness and I resigned as a 21 witness. 22 Q You dissolved the LMT so you could take the Fifth 23 Amendment because you didn't want anybody getting into your 24 bank records because Mr. Minton told everybody his biggest 25 fear was he would get nailed for tax evasion. He told
526 1 everybody that. Isn't that true? 2 A Where did you get that from? That is not true. 3 Q I guess we'll see. But don't you know that to be 4 the truth? 5 A No. 6 Q Mr. Minton never told you that? 7 A What? Is Jesse Prince and Tracy -- 8 THE COURT: You don't get to ask questions, 9 ma'am. You get to answer that question, was that 10 true. 11 THE WITNESS: The answer was no. I already 12 said. 13 THE COURT: Then move on to your next question. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q In June 2001 Judge Baird ordered Mr. Minton in for 16 a deposition. Isn't that correct? And I guess the day 17 before somebody posted all of Mr. Minton's mental health 18 records or something on the Internet and that got him all 19 upset. Is that true? 20 A No. This was in October that Judge Baird -- I 21 think it was in October. When was it? Anyway -- 22 Q Mr. Minton was supposed to go into a deposition? 23 A Yes, he was. 24 Q In some proceedings? 25 A Yes. And the day before what got posted was not
527 1 his mental health or medical records. What got posted was a 2 list of the names of some of his mental health -- you 3 know -- doctors. 4 Q There was something posted on the Internet about 5 Mr. Minton's mental condition. Right? 6 A Mmm, I don't -- I don't remember if it said 7 anything about his mental condition. But it listed the 8 names of his mental health -- you know, people that he has 9 seen over the years, you know, psychologists or 10 psychiatrists. 11 Q And that got him really upset. Right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q It didn't get him mad. It basically broke him 14 down. Didn't it? 15 A Mmm, I would say it broke him down and made him 16 very angry. 17 Q But it broke him down to the point where he said, 18 "I just can't do this deposition. You have got to get me 19 out of the deposition. I'm just mentally not prepared to go 20 through this." 21 A Yes, he said, "I'm not willing to go to Florida." 22 Q So this guy who is really bombed and just shows 23 anger all of the time, he gets so freaked out that his 24 mental health information of some fashion is on the 25 Internet, he can't go to a deposition, so you write an
528 1 affidavit? 2 THE COURT: That was an awful lot of question. 3 I mean, I don't know on -- if she said yes, I don't 4 know what she's answering yes to, and if she said 5 no, I don't know what she's answering no to. Let me 6 ask you this. I don't know what was posted on the 7 Internet, a list of his doctors? 8 THE WITNESS: A list of the names of his 9 doctors. 10 THE COURT: I'm sure he didn't reveal that? 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 THE COURT: So somebody got his doctors and he 13 was upset about that? 14 THE WITNESS: Right. 15 THE COURT: And I have seen depositions where 16 this topic seems to be started, he doesn't want to 17 talk -- like to talk about that. 18 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 19 THE COURT: So this had him upset. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it did. 21 THE COURT: And because of that, he didn't want 22 to go to Florida to give a deposition? 23 THE WITNESS: That's right. 24 THE COURT: Now, see, I don't know what period 25 of time you're talking about. The affidavit came
529 1 right after that or something? What deposition are 2 we talking about? 3 MR. LIROT: Mr. Minton's -- excuse me, his 4 deposition, I think in 2001, I believe it is June of 5 2001. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I guess the hearing about 7 it was in October then. 8 THE COURT: Then whatever affidavit you are 9 talking about I don't know. So go ahead and explore 10 that. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q So Mr. Minton had you do an affidavit to keep him 13 from going to that deposition. Isn't that correct? 14 A You know, I don't recall what happened. I mean, 15 if you have a copy of it -- 16 THE COURT: What was the affidavit all about? 17 That he was unable to come to the deposition? 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q That is the gist of it, wasn't it? He can't come 20 to the deposition because he has been ordered by a therapist 21 not to go? Wasn't that the gist of your affidavit? 22 A Mmm, I believe so. I -- I don't really remember 23 the affidavit, but that is what happened so -- 24 Q And he didn't have any therapist at the time, did 25 he? You lied in that affidavit, didn't you?
530 1 A I did not. He had spent the afternoon on the 2 phone with a therapist. 3 Q Who is this -- who is the therapist? 4 A Mmm, I was asked not to reveal her name. And I 5 don't believe I revealed her name in the affidavit. And I 6 would prefer not to. I don't know that it's really 7 necessary for this. 8 Q There was no therapist? 9 A That is not true. 10 Q You made it up? 11 A No, I did not. 12 Q Who is Diane Palermo? 13 A She's a former Scientologist who now works as a 14 social counselor. 15 Q You asked her to do a statement to support 16 Mr. Minton getting out of that deposition. Didn't you? 17 A Well, Mmm, you are the one that brought her name 18 up so I'll tell you what happened. 19 She was on the phone for most of the afternoon 20 with Mr. Minton. 21 Q What is her qualifications? 22 A As I understood it she was a social counselor. 23 Q So she's a social worker. She works for the LMT. 24 Right? 25 A No.
531 1 Q How did you come across Ms. Palermo? 2 A Mmm, she's a Scientology critic. She had been at 3 the LMT a couple of times. She lives in New York. She's a 4 former Scientologist so she had been someone that we had 5 spoken to. 6 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar, it's really 7 distracting when you are whispering while I'm trying 8 to talk. 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you'll just have to 10 subject yourself to it. It is distracting more to 11 me when he's up or down. So one of us has to be put 12 out, so it is going to have to be you more than me. 13 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't think anybody is 14 more distracted than me, so -- 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q But, no, Ms. Palermo, she was never Mr. Minton's 17 therapist, she was never a counselor for him. Isn't that 18 correct? 19 A Well, he considered that she was his therapist 20 that day. I mean, the fact he had not been seeing her on a 21 regular basis didn't -- wasn't a relevant issue at the time. 22 She's the person that he called when this thing happened. 23 THE COURT: She's the therapist that you were 24 referring to in your affidavit? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
532 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 THE WITNESS: I did not make it up. And I did 3 not lie. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q She's not a licensed therapist by any stretch of 6 the imagination, is she? 7 A When I wrote that affidavit, I thought she was a 8 therapist. She later called me and was she angry that I'd 9 labeled her that way because she said she was a social 10 counselor. 11 Q She -- 12 A As far as I know, I don't -- you know, you would 13 have to show me the affidavit, but I don't recall whether I 14 said licensed therapist. I said that a therapist has 15 advised him not to go. And that -- 16 Q She flat turned you down? 17 A I'm sorry? 18 Q She turned you down? 19 A For what? 20 Q She said, "I'm not doing this, it is not ethical," 21 true? 22 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, I'll object to the 23 testimony. 24 THE COURT: Me, too. Ask one question at a 25 time. It is not ethical. It is not true. In other
533 1 words, did you ask her to write an affidavit for 2 Mr. Minton? 3 THE WITNESS: I think Mr. Merrett asked her to 4 say something in some form, maybe an affidavit, I'm 5 not sure, for the court. 6 THE COURT: For the court. Did she agree to do 7 that? 8 THE WITNESS: And she said no, she didn't want 9 to come forward. 10 THE COURT: And did she say why? 11 THE WITNESS: She said she didn't want to be 12 identified. She didn't want to be harassed by 13 Scientology. 14 THE COURT: And so you did the affidavit? 15 THE WITNESS: And so I did an affidavit. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Well, who is Steve Hassan? 18 A It is Hassan. Steve Hassan. He's -- 19 Q Okay. 20 A He's a -- he's a psychologist, I think. He was in 21 Boston. He does a lot of work with people coming out of 22 cults. 23 Q And you asked him to do the same thing: You asked 24 him to write an affidavit or some document so Mr. Minton 25 wouldn't have to go to his deposition. Isn't that true?
534 1 A I asked him if he would -- no, that was after. 2 Q You didn't ask him to do anything before this 3 deposition? Didn't ask him to produce some document saying 4 Mr. Minton shouldn't go to this deposition because he's in 5 bad mental shape? 6 A Mmm, my memory is that I talked to him after this. 7 But whichever I did, before or after, I asked him if he 8 would see Mr. Minton and act as Mr. Minton's therapist for 9 this situation. Because -- I can't remember who was saying 10 this -- but somebody was saying that Mr. Minton would need 11 to go and see a forensic psychiatrist, and Mr. Minton wasn't 12 wanting to do that. 13 Q He didn't want to go to his deposition, right? 14 A I think he had already not gone. I am pretty sure 15 he had already not gone because this happened right before 16 he was supposed to go. 17 Q And you desperately tried to find somebody who -- 18 even though they had not treated Mr. Minton or didn't know 19 anything about him -- just to come up with some explanation 20 as to why he wasn't at his deposition, isn't that correct? 21 A Mr. Lirot, that is incorrect. I have said this 22 several times. It is incorrect. I was not desperate. I 23 wasn't anything. 24 Mr. Minton spent the afternoon on the phone 25 with -- I was down in Florida. Mr. Minton spent the
535 1 afternoon on the phone with this woman, and I spoke to her 2 that night and confirmed that that was true. 3 Q So there is no false statement in the affidavit 4 that you filed? 5 A No. 6 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, if he's 7 going to ask a question like that, I think he ought 8 to show her the affidavit. 9 THE COURT: Well, I kind of agree. 10 MR. LIROT: Judge, we'll have it after the 11 break. 12 THE COURT: All right. Bring it back after 13 lunch. Go away from this line of questioning and 14 come back to it. I think that is correct. I don't 15 know when the affidavit was written, but I think you 16 should have her look at it and point to whatever it 17 is you are talking about and see if she believes 18 that is true or false. 19 Where is Mr. Howie? 20 MR. MOXON: He had to leave. 21 THE COURT: Know what? We might as well call 22 up Mr. Minton and tell him if he's not here, he 23 doesn't have to come. We'll not finish with her 24 today. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Minton would be 25 wasting his time to come sit on a hard bench. So
536 1 somebody -- where is Mr. Howie? 2 MR. LIROT: I don't know, your Honor. 3 MR. McGOWAN: I believe he went back to his 4 office. 5 THE COURT: Well, if somebody has a cell phone 6 and they want to call Mr. Howie, tell him he can 7 call Mr. Minton if he wants to. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Early Monday morning? 9 THE COURT: Monday morning, we'll say nine 10 o'clock. I'll say Monday morning at ten o'clock. 11 We've jurors coming in. I'm not even sure where 12 we'll be because I don't know what judges will have 13 trial. So we'll say ten o'clock. 14 Madam court reporter, I'll need somebody from 15 your office here earlier to set up because I can't 16 tell you where to set up. And the same with the 17 lawyers. If you want to set up, somebody better be 18 here by 9:30, then I'll know where we'll be. It 19 will not be here, most likely, as much as I would 20 like to. 21 I'm still hopeful we'll finish with this 22 witness, but I don't think we're going to get very 23 meaningful in Mr. Minton's testimony so we might as 24 well call it a day and stop when we finish. 25 MR. WEINBERG: There will be a bunch of panels
537 1 here at 9? A bunch -- there will be a number of 2 people for parking purposes? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 5 THE COURT: It is jury trial work. So knowing 6 that, I'm not sure what time they get summonses. 7 Somebody from the clerks office can tell you they 8 sure take up the space. So you might want to get 9 here real early. 10 MR. FUGATE: Thanks a lot. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I had not found that public 12 parking yet. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Just were you aware that your declarations were 15 used to try to get Mr. Leipold, the attorney in the 16 Wollersheim case, disqualified yesterday? 17 A No. 18 THE COURT: What affidavits? The same one? 19 A What affidavit? That is my question, too. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Were you aware there was a motion to disqualify 22 Mr. Leipold based on something you had provided to the 23 Court? 24 A No, I wasn't. What was its use? 25 THE COURT: Counselor, I would like to know,
538 1 too. Are you speaking of the affidavit she filed in 2 this case or are you speaking of another affidavit 3 she filed recently out in that case? 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, it's my understanding there 5 was a motion made to have Mr. Leipold disqualified. 6 THE WITNESS: It is Leipold. 7 MR. LIROT: Leipold. All right. I'm still 8 getting up to speed on the pronunciations. But 9 apparently there was a message that some documents 10 provided by Ms. Brooks were apparently used in an 11 effort to have Mr. Leipold disqualified in the 12 Wollersheim case. He was the gentleman that 13 testified by phone the other day. 14 THE COURT: Okay. You are not aware of that? 15 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Have you provided another affidavit 17 in California? 18 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: To the best of your knowledge, 20 recent history, are the affidavits provided in this 21 case the only affidavits you provided recently? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Let me go ahead and bring you up to the most
539 1 recent -- 2 THE COURT: Counselor, if you want to prove 3 that, you'll have to prove that. I don't know if it 4 is true. You'll have to prove it by some other way 5 than by those questions. 6 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Let's bring us up to the current period. All 9 right? After the time line you see that Mr. Minton is 10 traumatized so you get in touch with Mr. Howie and you tell 11 Mr. Howie to start setting up the meetings. I want to ask 12 you something about the meetings. 13 When was the first meeting held between 14 Mr. Minton, or Mr. Minton and you, with members of the 15 Church to try to resolve these matters? 16 A Mmm, I think it was March 28th. 17 Q Where was that meeting held? 18 A In New York. 19 Q Who was in attendance? 20 A Mmm, Mr. Rosen. Mr. Rinder. Ms. Yingling. 21 Mr. Minton. Myself. And Steve Jonas. 22 Q Okay. And apparently did you request that all 23 those people be in attendance? Or was that just who showed 24 up? 25 A Mmm, well, Mr. Jonas was representing Mr. Minton
540 1 and me. And we weren't in control of who Scientology would 2 have go to the meeting. 3 Q Were there any meetings prior to this March -- 4 this is March 28 you said was the very first meeting? 5 A I think that was the date. 6 Q Were there any meetings prior to that, that you 7 know about? 8 A I don't think so. 9 Q Did Mr. Minton have any private meetings that you 10 might have heard about, or is it possible he could have met 11 without your knowledge? 12 MR. FUGATE: Well, I would object to that as 13 speculation. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Do you know of Mr. Minton having any meetings 17 prior to March 28 with anybody from the Church of 18 Scientology? 19 THE COURT: Well, now, somewhere in one of 20 these documents there are some other discussions -- 21 some document that was provided from this witness 22 where she indicated there were other meetings 23 between Mr. Minton and some of the Church leaders. 24 It seems to me they have nothing to do with this 25 case. They were of ancient vintage. I don't want
541 1 open-ended questions. 2 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. 3 THE COURT: We're talking about regarding this 4 issue, this settlement, this whatever you want to 5 call it. 6 Are you aware of any meetings between 7 Mr. Minton and anyone from the Church of Scientology 8 prior to the meeting on 3/28/02? 9 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right. The first meeting, March 28th, where 12 was it held? It was in New York, but where? 13 A In Mr. Rosen's -- a conference room from 14 Mr. Rosen's firm. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen, for the record, is one 16 of the lawyers representing the Church of 17 Scientology in the -- in the case in Clearwater, the 18 breach of contract case wherein the Church is the 19 plaintiff and the estate and perhaps others are the 20 defendant? 21 MR. LIROT: Yes. 22 THE COURT: And I believe Mr. Pope's office is 23 counsel of record and Mr. Rosen is another counsel 24 of record? Is that correct? 25 MR. LIROT: That is my understanding, your
542 1 Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Yingling is another 3 Church attorney? Mr. Rinder is a member of the 4 Church of Scientology. And we know, of course, 5 about this witness, Mr. Minton. Mr. Minton -- and 6 Mr. Jonas is one of Mr. Minton's lawyers and your 7 lawyer? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, he was representing me for 9 the purpose of that -- 10 THE COURT: I'm sorry, not a hearing, of that 11 discussion. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, for the record, 13 Ms. Yingling is a private attorney in Washington, 14 D.C. who is with a firm there who does work for the 15 Church of Scientology. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Among other clients. 18 THE COURT: So she is not a member of the 19 Church of Scientology who is also a lawyer. She is 20 a lawyer -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: A lawyer. 22 THE COURT: -- who is retained by the Church of 23 Scientology who -- for this purpose? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 25 THE COURT: Thank you.
543 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Now, so you are there. Mr. Jonas is there. 3 Mr. Jonas worked with Mr. Minton for quite some time. 4 Hasn't he? 5 A I think he has for a number of years. 6 Q Okay. And you are there. Mr. Rinder we know is 7 one of the higher-ups for the Church. I think that was your 8 testimony. Certainly a person with some authority with the 9 Church. Isn't that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And then Mr. Rosen, obviously he's active in one 12 of the cases? 13 THE COURT: I don't know the answer to this. 14 Is Mr. Rosen a member of the Church, as well as a 15 lawyer? Or is he outside? 16 MR. WEINBERG: He's an outside lawyer with the 17 Paul Hastings firm, and his office is in New York 18 City. They have many offices, but that is where he 19 is. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Now, Ms. Yingling was there, as well. What is 22 Ms. Yingling's area of expertise, if you know? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Do you know if she's entered an appearance on any 25 of these cases that either the -- either the breach case or
544 1 the wrongful death case? 2 A Not that I know of. 3 Q All right. To your knowledge, what was the reason 4 she was at this meeting? 5 A Mmm, I'm not really sure why she was at the 6 meeting. She's an attorney for the Church. 7 Q Had you known her before? 8 A Mmm, I have seen her I think at least one other 9 time in a deposition that she attended. 10 Q And you don't know anything about her area of 11 expertise? 12 A She's a defense attorney, I think. 13 Q She's the one that helped you with your affidavit, 14 I think you testified to? 15 A She provided me some documents. 16 Q Okay. Tell me about the conduct of the meeting. 17 How did the meeting start? 18 MR. FUGATE: Are we talking about the 28th of 19 March? 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q The March 28 meeting. That is correct. 22 A Well, we all sat down. 23 Q Okay. 24 A And said hello. And I think Mr. Jonas was mainly 25 speaking for us. And Mr. Rosen was mainly speaking for
545 1 them, as I recall. Mr. Rinder spoke a little bit. 2 Q All right. And Mr. Jonas, I guess, to be 3 consistent with your testimony, did he say, "My clients are 4 worried about testimony they've given about one check and 5 testimony about an agreement so we're here to throw 6 ourselves on your mercy to find out what we can do to 7 resolve these matters"? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay, why don't you tell me what was said. 10 A Well, I'm going to have to paraphrase because I 11 wouldn't -- I don't have any notes other than -- I mean, I 12 can basically tell you that Rosen -- Mr. Rosen -- well, I 13 think maybe Mr. Jonas spoke first. 14 And but basically what he said was my clients 15 would like to come to an agreement with you that will allow 16 them to walk away from all of this litigation, basically 17 something like that. 18 Q Was there a court reporter there? 19 A No. 20 Q Was there -- was the meeting tape-recorded, do you 21 know? 22 A Not to my knowledge. 23 Q Did you see Mr. -- Mr. Rosen or Ms. Yingling 24 taking notes or anything like that? 25 A Mmm, I -- I don't recall Mr. Rosen taking any
546 1 notes. I'm not sure anybody took any notes, actually. 2 Q You have a very important meeting with lots of 3 pending litigation. Right? There are a lot of cases being 4 discussed here at this meeting. Correct? 5 A Yeah. And he had -- Mr. Rosen did show us a list 6 of some sort. 7 Q So he had some documents to produce at this 8 meeting. Right? 9 A Mmm, he -- he -- he had handwritten, as I 10 recall -- it wasn't typed -- he had handwritten a list of -- 11 of the cases that Mr. Minton has been involved in or is 12 involved in. 13 Q Did you see the list? 14 A Yeah, I did. But he -- he had it. He was reading 15 from it. I mean, I saw that he was reading from it. 16 Q So he had a pad at the meeting. Right? 17 A Mmm, I don't believe he had a pad. I think he 18 just had this piece of paper with this list on it, as I 19 recall. 20 Q Okay. What cases were on the list? 21 A Mmm, well, when Mr. Jonas was finished saying, you 22 know, that his clients wanted to reach a settlement where we 23 could -- where Mr. Minton and I could just walk away, 24 basically, Mr. Rosen said, "Well, you know, walking away 25 isn't going to be that easy because what you have created
547 1 for us is, you know -- you know, all this litigation," maybe 2 20 different lawsuits that he listed out. And he said -- 3 Q Well, let me ask you this. My question was what 4 cases were on the list? 5 A Mmm, well, at the top of the list was the wrongful 6 death case. The breach case. You know, I mean, I'm -- 7 I'm -- the -- the Armstrong case. The -- 8 Q Well, let me ask you this. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 10 THE COURT: Wait a minute. You asked her a 11 question. 12 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 13 THE COURT: Let her do the best she can. 14 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. I apologize. 15 A The libel suit in Germany. The Wollersheim case. 16 The Henson legal trial. That case. Mmm, I can't remember 17 what else, but it was a long list. 18 THE COURT: I saw something, reading last 19 night, about a lawsuit going on in Paris, France. 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah, a French -- 21 THE COURT: I don't know what it was, but I saw 22 something about it. 23 THE WITNESS: That is also a libel suit. I'm 24 not sure if it is still ongoing or not. But that 25 was on the list too, the French case -- cases.
548 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q That doesn't come up to 20? 3 A I know. I don't remember what else. 4 Q Well, you worked intimately with Mr. Minton. You 5 know what he's involved in, right? 6 THE COURT: Counsel, there is no arguing with 7 her further. She said she can't remember any 8 further. We'll have to ask Mr. Minton. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q What is the Armstrong case? 11 THE COURT: I believe you said you planned to 12 tell Mr. Rosen the case. He might bring his little 13 piece of paper with him. 14 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q What is the Armstrong case? What do you 17 understand those issues to be? Why was that brought up at 18 this meeting? 19 A Well, that is -- there is -- let's see, there is 20 now a new lawsuit I have been served with and Mr. Minton has 21 been served with. But the history of it just real briefly 22 is that Gerry Armstrong made a settlement with Scientology 23 maybe in 1986, in the mid-eighties, then he violated that 24 settlement. And Scientology's contention is that he was 25 enabled by Mr. Minton's funding of him to violate the
549 1 settlement so that basically Mr. Minton is a -- I don't 2 remember what the legal word is for it -- but somebody who 3 helps somebody else -- 4 THE COURT: Aider and abetter. 5 THE WITNESS: Whatever. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q I guess I still don't understand the case. What 8 did Mr. Armstrong do? 9 A Oh, he's -- there was a settlement agreement 10 between him and Scientology. 11 Q What did they settle? 12 A It was a global settlement that an attorney named 13 Michael Flynn worked out with Scientology, and Mr. Armstrong 14 was one of his clients. 15 Q Okay. 16 A He worked out a global settlement with all of his 17 clients. 18 Q What was the case about? 19 A Mmm, well, there were a bunch of different cases. 20 But the Armstrong case that Mr. Flynn was 21 representing Armstrong on -- Mmm, I'm not actually sure. 22 But he must -- he must have sued Scientology. Scientology 23 sued Mr. Armstrong in 1984. And I'm familiar with that 24 case. But now that you ask me, I'm actually not sure what 25 Mr. Armstrong's --
550 1 THE COURT: Well, can I ask you this? When you 2 said the Armstrong case was on the piece of paper, 3 was the Armstrong case on the piece of paper, the 4 one you had just been served with? 5 THE WITNESS: We had not been served with it 6 yet. 7 THE COURT: Or to be -- in other words, is it 8 the old case? Or were they trying to list the new 9 case? Or do you know? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not -- I don't 11 actually -- I'm not sure if I'm actually clear on 12 that. But, I mean, the point that was being made 13 was that Mr. Minton's funding -- I mean, the theme 14 throughout this list was that all of this 15 litigation -- or all of these legal problems, in 16 whatever way they were existing, had been made 17 possible by Mr. Minton's funding. 18 And so to that degree, you know, they -- you 19 know, I'm not -- it was -- it was negotiations, and 20 I'm not sure exactly why it was brought up. I'm not 21 sure if it was brought up because, you know -- very 22 large amounts of money, you know -- it came to -- I 23 don't remember how much money, but a lot of millions 24 of dollars that they were saying Mr. Minton was 25 responsible for them having had to spend.
551 1 And, I mean, maybe they were bringing it up 2 because -- well, at least I got the impression they 3 were bringing it up to sort of give Mr. Minton an 4 idea of the scope of what they considered he had 5 caused them. 6 THE COURT: But you and I might differ on what 7 many millions of dollars -- frankly, two would be 8 many and that was a lot to me. 9 THE WITNESS: It was many more than that. 10 THE COURT: Do you have any idea what we're 11 talking about -- 12 MR. LIROT: If I may approach the witness, 13 Judge? 14 THE COURT: You may, but I would still like an 15 answer to that. Do you remember the amount of 16 money? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is the lawsuit. 18 THE COURT: Well, this is just one lawsuit. 19 I'm talking about -- 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, you know, I may be wrong, 21 but it was probably close to $100 million. It was 22 such a huge amount of money, it just sort of went 23 off the map for me. It was a lot. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And so then Mr. Rosen said, you
552 1 know, we really aren't going to be willing to get 2 into any settlement talks with you at all until you 3 both set the record straight in the wrongful death 4 case and the breach -- I think he said and the 5 breach case. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Okay, well, I'm asking you about this Armstrong 8 case. You go to this meeting on March 28th. And you were 9 presented with a notice to produce. And counsel, 10 Mr. McGowan, yesterday, provided us with responsive 11 documents. This was among those. 12 Are you aware of that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And I guess that if you look at the summons on 15 this document it says it was filed on April 2nd, 2002? 16 A That could be. That may be. It looks like it 17 was. I mean, I don't remember when I was served with this, 18 but I was in this courthouse when I was served. 19 THE COURT: I was looking at this last night, 20 and I saw on the front of this, this summons, this 21 Stacy Brooks, president, Lisa McPherson Trust. I 22 didn't know whether that was somehow some penned-in 23 party or whether that was a suggestion that, as the 24 Lisa McPherson Trust, you were served as president. 25 Is that how --
553 1 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't -- I don't remember 2 if that was on there when I got served. But see, 3 the Lisa McPherson Trust is a party. 4 THE COURT: Were you served in that capacity? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: So you have not been sued in that 7 case in your individual capacity? But you 8 accepted -- you got served as a representative of 9 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Mr. Minton was named in that lawsuit, as well, 14 right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And -- 17 THE COURT: Who is Gerald Armstrong? 18 THE WITNESS: He's a former Scientologist 19 who -- 20 THE COURT: Another critic. 21 THE WITNESS: -- who has been a very vocal 22 critic. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. FUGATE: He's also listed as a witness by 25 Mr. Dandar in this case, your Honor.
554 1 THE COURT: Okay. Is he listed as -- 2 Mr. Dandar has listed a lot of people that he's 3 trying to list as a person to come in and testify in 4 front of a jury as to Scientology practices. Is 5 that the purpose for his being on the list? 6 MR. DANDAR: Well, he refused to come back to 7 complete his deposition so he was withdrawn. 8 THE COURT: But that is the purpose of listing 9 him? 10 MR. DANDAR: Scientology practices. Yes. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q If you look at Page 10 of this lawsuit, it has a 14 prayer for relief. And I ask you to draw your attention to 15 that page. And you can see in Paragraph 1 it says they are 16 looking for damages of $10,050,000. That is just for 17 Count 1. Right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What does this have to do with any perjury? 20 A This isn't. As I said, I had not been served with 21 this when we had our meeting. 22 Q Did you know it was coming? 23 A Mmm, I -- I don't remember. 24 THE COURT: We better set this record straight, 25 too. I thought I read this last night. The
555 1 $10,500,000 has nothing to do with either Mr. Minton 2 or her, as representative to -- excuse me, 3 Ms. Brooks, as representative of the Lisa McPherson 4 Trust. That is the lawsuit of Mr. Armstrong. She 5 and Mr. Minton are named. And, of course, included 6 within that is the claim for punitive damages which 7 one can assume would be, as you can see, millions. 8 I mean, the case speaks for itself, but as I 9 looked at it last night, I thought, this claim is 10 against this Mr. Armstrong, whoever he is. And 11 Counts 2 and 3 involve Mr. Minton and the Lisa 12 McPherson Trust. 13 MR. LIROT: Correct. Correct. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q What was mentioned about this at all at the first 16 meeting? 17 A Oh -- 18 Q This lawsuit, I should say, since I held it up and 19 I guess that wouldn't be reflected on the record. 20 THE COURT: What is it? Are you going to file 21 this? 22 MR. LIROT: I would like to. It has already 23 been filed as part of what Mr. McGowan presented, 24 but I would like to enter it. 25 THE COURT: As an exhibit?
556 1 MR. LIROT: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Plaintiff's next in order, which is 3 what, Madam Clerk? 4 THE CLERK: Number 10. 5 THE COURT: Number 10. 6 MR. LIROT: 10. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Was this brought up at all during that meeting 9 with Mr. Rosen? 10 A It might have been. It's -- it very well might 11 have been. I'm just not -- my memory is not clear enough, 12 and I think probably that is because of what happened right 13 after that was what my attention went on to much more. 14 You know, this lawsuit, like I said, there was a 15 long list of things. I had the impression that the reason 16 for doing this list and everything was to give Mr. Minton an 17 idea of how much overall monetary damage Scientology 18 considered he had done to them. And, you know, this is part 19 of it, too. But it doesn't stand out -- I mean, it was a 20 part of a whole big thing. 21 THE COURT: Here is what we need to know here. 22 Was the deal that if a settlement were worked out 23 after you came forward and straightened this out, 24 meaning what we're going through right now, that if 25 a settlement could be worked out, it would include
557 1 this going away? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, it was my impression -- and 3 it was my belief -- I mean, we were talking about a 4 global settlement. So it was my idea if a 5 settlement could be worked out, it would all go 6 away. 7 THE COURT: It was your hope, the purpose of 8 you being there and Mr. Minton's being there, was to 9 get out of the litigation business, all of it, if 10 you could? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Including anything that was just 13 filed? 14 THE WITNESS: Or that was about to be filed. 15 THE COURT: Or that was about to be filed. 16 THE WITNESS: Whatever. I don't believe it was 17 mentioned that anything was about to be filed. But 18 in my -- in my mind, it would include everything. 19 THE COURT: So that when -- if a settlement 20 could be reached, when you and Mr. Minton went back 21 to New Hampshire, wherever it was, there would be no 22 lawsuits? 23 THE WITNESS: Correct. 24 THE COURT: Either from him suing the Church or 25 from the Church suing him or you or the Lisa
558 1 McPherson Trust or any other entity perhaps 2 Mr. Minton was involved in? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was my understanding. 4 THE COURT: He dropped his suit, they dropped 5 their suits, everyone would go their separate ways? 6 THE WITNESS: That was my understanding -- or 7 my hope. But the settlement discussions -- well, 8 that basically was what happened on the first day. 9 And then -- 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Well, let me ask you, I don't mean to interrupt, 12 but I would rather ask it in a question form. 13 Did Mr. Rosen mention anything about a 14 racketeering lawsuit? 15 A Mmm, he said something like, "You know, 16 Mr. Minton, when you put this whole picture together, it 17 certainly might make grounds for a RICO case against you." 18 Something like that. 19 Q Did he tell Mr. Minton that he was going to end up 20 in jail? 21 A I don't believe so. 22 Q Did he tell Mr. Minton that his wife would end up 23 in jail? 24 A Mr. Minton's wife didn't come up. 25 Q What else did Mr. Rosen say --
559 1 MR. FUGATE: I continue hear that with the door 2 open. 3 THE COURT: She said Mr. Minton's wife's name 4 didn't come up. 5 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. 6 THE COURT: I believe that is what you said. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. I don't recall 8 that her name came up. I don't recall that jail 9 came up. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q What else did Mr. Rosen talk to you about at this 12 first meeting? 13 A Basically, he went down this litany of -- of legal 14 things that Mr. Minton had funded. 15 THE COURT: We're going to -- let's -- can we 16 break now? Is it a good place? I just have one 17 question. 18 When you say whether it came up or it didn't 19 come up, RICO is -- I don't know if it's an acronym 20 or just a small word for racketeering. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: You know that is criminal as well 23 as civil; there is civil RICO and criminal RICO. 24 THE WITNESS: I do know that. It wasn't my 25 impression that -- it was my impression Mr. Rosen
560 1 was talking about civil. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen isn't a State Attorney 3 and he's not a District Attorney so he would have no 4 authority to charge someone criminally, but you are 5 aware that there are two -- 6 THE WITNESS: That there are two kinds. 7 THE COURT: Two kinds, one civil and one 8 criminal. So he brought up the type he can pursue, 9 which is civil. Right? 10 THE WITNESS: That was my impression. 11 THE COURT: Right. And sometimes from a civil 12 racketeering charge or civil racketeering case 13 criminal charges come. Sometimes from criminal 14 charges a civil case is filed. 15 Were you aware of that? 16 THE WITNESS: No. But it doesn't surprise me. 17 THE COURT: It doesn't matter. We'll see if 18 Mr. Minton was aware of it. We'll be in recess 19 until 1:30. 20 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, Mr. Howie is here now. 22 Before he leaves, I wonder if we could clear up one 23 brief housekeeping matter, just the order -- 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. MOXON: -- on the counterclaim. Mr. Howie
561 1 approved the order granting Mr. Minton coming in as 2 counter-defendant. 3 MR. HOWIE: That is correct, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: I think we already did that. 5 MR. MOXON: It was never signed. 6 MR. HOWIE: I reviewed the order and I have no 7 problem or objection to it. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MOXON: I will leave that with you for your 10 JA. Is that correct? 11 THE COURT: If you could take it to her on a 12 break. What is the date today? 13 MR. DANDAR: 7th. 14 THE CLERK: 7th. 15 THE COURT: If you don't mind, you can take it 16 right down if you want to. I think she's in her 17 office. She'll file it for us today. 18 MR. MOXON: Thank you. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, I saw your client as I 20 was going to lunch. I tried to find you right 21 before lunch. It didn't seem to me we were going to 22 get to him, so I told him he was excused as far as I 23 was concerned. If he didn't want to be here this 24 afternoon, he didn't have to be. 25 MR. HOWIE: Do you have any idea when he would
562 1 be required? 2 THE COURT: Well, I would like to have said 3 this morning but obviously I'm wrong. I don't know 4 how long this witness will take. 5 MR. HOWIE: I'll wait to be noticed by the 6 court. 7 MR. FUGATE: When we reconvene it will be 8 Monday. 9 THE COURT: Monday at ten o'clock. 10 MR. HOWIE: Monday at ten o'clock? 11 THE COURT: So if we can possibly finish with 12 this witness today, it would be Monday at ten. 13 Perhaps you can call one lawyer or the other or both 14 to get an idea as to where we are. 15 MR. HOWIE: Thank you very much. 16 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Howie. You may be 17 excused if you would like. You are welcome to stay. 18 MR. HOWIE: I'll be staying a while. Thank 19 you. 20 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Lirot, you may 21 continue. 22 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Ms. Brooks, before we broke, we were talking 25 about, I believe, the meeting of May 28, 2002 --
563 1 A March. 2 Q March. I'm sorry. And you were telling me about 3 Mr. Rosen's activities at this meeting. And apparently was 4 there a large stack of paper represented to be a 5 racketeering lawsuit shown to Mr. Minton or yourself at that 6 time? 7 A Not that I recall. 8 Q Just discussion about the issue? 9 A Uh-huh. 10 THE COURT: "Uh-huh," was that a yes? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Yes. 12 THE COURT: Okay. I say that and I'll tell you 13 why. Uh-huh and uh-uh are very hard to know whether 14 it is a yes or no on one of those records. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Did the LMT hire a gentleman by the name of 19 Patrick Yost? 20 A Excuse me just a second. He may have held 21 something up and said this was a draft. I -- that may have 22 happened. I'm not sure. 23 Q Did he mention it was a $110 million racketeering 24 suit or anything along those lines? 25 A Not that I recall.
564 1 Q I wanted to ask one back-up question. Did the LMT 2 ever hire an individual by the name of Patrick Yost? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And Mr. Yost is an expert in money laundering 5 factors? 6 A Yes. 7 Q After Mr. Rosen apparently -- I'm taking you back 8 to the meeting now. After Mr. Rosen talked to you about 9 this lawsuit, what did you discuss next at this meeting? 10 A Well, the next day we came in in the morning 11 and -- and, Mmm, basically Mr. Jonas said -- Mmm, "My 12 clients are --" 13 I'm sorry, I'm having a little bit of attention on 14 the question you asked me earlier. If I might just add 15 something to my answer on that. 16 Q I already asked it. That is all right. I asked a 17 simple question and you answered yes, so I'm asking about 18 the meeting -- 19 THE WITNESS: But is it okay if I just add 20 something to that, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Whichever question it is? 22 THE WITNESS: It was about Patrick Yost. 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 A He's an expert in money laundering, and he worked 25 for the Treasury Department. And the reason we hired him
565 1 was to execute an affidavit after a very, very thorough 2 study of Mr. Minton's business dealings in Nigeria. And he 3 executed a very lengthy affidavit stating that he could find 4 no evidence whatsoever of money laundering. 5 So back to the meeting. Mmm, we went in the next 6 morning. And -- 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Well, I'm sorry, Ms. Brooks, I don't mean to 9 interrupt you, but I'm still on the 28th here. 10 A I'm done with the 28th. I mean, that is basically 11 what happened on the 28th. 12 Q You went in, sat down, Mr. Rosen handed you a 13 list, he talked about racketeering and everybody went home? 14 A That is not what I said. 15 Q Well, I would like to know -- I don't mean to be 16 flip with you -- 17 A That was a little flip. 18 Q -- but clearly this meeting lasted longer than the 19 things you have testified to. 20 A Well, the basic gist of it -- 21 THE COURT: How long did it last? I don't 22 know. Maybe it was a 10-minute meeting. How long 23 were you all there at the first meeting? 24 THE WITNESS: Several hours, I would say. I 25 don't remember exactly what time we left. But we
566 1 were there -- we started in the morning. And, you 2 know, we had a break for lunch, we had a couple 3 other breaks. And, you know, sometime in the 4 afternoon we were finished for the day. So it was 5 several hours. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q So that -- that's a pretty healthy meeting. So 9 after you got there, Mr. Rosen shows you this list of -- 10 THE COURT: I don't know if -- Counsel, if it 11 was a healthy meeting or not. Are you trying to say 12 it was a fair amount of time? 13 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. LIROT: Lengthy. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q After Mr. Rosen showed you this list of cases, 18 what was discussed after that? 19 A Mmm, that took quite some time, that discussion. 20 And then -- well, and then he basically said -- Mmm -- or 21 perhaps it was Mr. Rinder who said -- that there could be no 22 talk of settlement until we set the record straight in the 23 wrongful death case. 24 Q Well, I want to ask you some more about the cases. 25 After every case was described, was it just a list? Or did
567 1 Mr. Rosen tell you what he wanted the outcome of those cases 2 to be before they would discuss settlement? 3 A No. That wasn't at all the subject of that part 4 of the discussion. 5 Q Did he -- 6 A The only -- the -- 7 Q Did he -- 8 A -- the only requirement that we were given as a 9 precondition to settlement was to set the record straight in 10 the wrongful death case. 11 The rest of it, as I said earlier, was Mr. Rosen 12 basically -- as I said, it was my impression that he was 13 making it very clear to Mr. Minton how much trouble he had 14 caused Scientology by what he had -- he had been funding, 15 generally. 16 Q So this was all just by way of background 17 information, and all we want you to do to settle with us is 18 set the record straight in the wrongful death case? 19 A No, that wasn't what my impression was. What I 20 felt like was, was he was kind of wanting to impress upon 21 Mr. Minton the -- sort of the magnitude of -- of the damage 22 that he had caused -- or, you know, the trouble that he had 23 caused Scientology. 24 Q Well -- 25 A And, you know, my feeling about it was that, you
568 1 know, this was sort of as a negotiating -- you know, when 2 you are in negotiation about something, you want to, you 3 know, sort of send messages to the other person. And I felt 4 like he was wanting to make it very clear to Mr. Minton the 5 magnitude of the trouble he had caused. 6 Q Well, you call it trouble. I mean, wasn't 7 Mr. Minton's position that he was helping people who had 8 legitimate complaints about experiences they had had with 9 the Church? 10 A That wasn't Mr. Minton's position anymore at that 11 time. No, it wasn't. 12 Q When he provided the help in those cases, though, 13 wasn't that Mr. Minton's position? 14 A Certainly. He felt like we were helping for a 15 good time. By the time we were sitting down in New York he 16 no longer felt that way. He felt like he had been used. He 17 felt like he had been taken advantage of quite a bit, 18 particularly by Mr. Dandar and Mr. Leipold. And he didn't 19 want anything to do with litigation involving the Church of 20 Scientology any longer because -- and I felt that way and 21 had felt this way for quite some time, and I feel this way 22 today. 23 Litigation is not a proper forum for resolving any 24 kinds of differences with Scientology. It's just not -- 25 it's not appropriate, it's not -- it's -- it doesn't achieve
569 1 the goals that -- or it doesn't achieve what -- it just 2 doesn't achieve anything positive. 3 You know, it -- we had come to feel it was just 4 a -- a game of who is going to win the most money or who is 5 going to win money or whatever. And -- and, you know, as I 6 said, Mr. Minton was feeling extremely used and abused by 7 Mr. Dandar. 8 Q Well, I think your testimony was he felt used and 9 abused effectively by everybody involved in litigation 10 against the Church he had funded? 11 A No, he didn't feel used and abused by everybody. 12 He felt used by Mr. Dandar and Mr. Leipold and he felt used 13 and abused by Mr. Dandar. 14 Q Okay. So Mr. Dandar is in a special place in 15 Mr. Minton's mind then? 16 A Very much so. Very much so. 17 Q All right. 18 A Mr. Dandar is the only one who has encouraged 19 Mr. Minton to perjure himself. That puts him in a pretty 20 special category. 21 Q That has been your testimony throughout. 22 A It will continue to be my testimony. Because it's 23 the truth. 24 Q I'm confident of that. 25 Now, what other aspects of this -- this is a long
570 1 meeting, several hours. And I guess Mr. Rosen just wanted 2 to show Mr. Minton, in your words, how much trouble he had 3 caused the Church. 4 What else did Mr. Rosen say? 5 A Mmm, that was pretty much the role that Mr. Rosen 6 had in the meeting. I'm pretty sure it was Mr. Rinder who 7 then basically said, you know, we're really not willing to 8 discuss any kind of global settlement with you until you set 9 the record straight on the wrongful death case. 10 Q Well, nobody cared about setting the record 11 straight. Did they? The request was dismiss the case, get 12 this case wrapped up because it is the biggest nightmare we 13 have. Wasn't that what Mr. Rosen told you? 14 A No, he said Mr. Rinder said that they wouldn't be 15 willing to discuss settlement with us until we set the 16 record straight in the wrongful death case. 17 Q Wasn't there a lot of correspondence and 18 statements made about dismissing the case? Wasn't that the 19 goal? Wasn't that a prerequisite of any settlement? 20 A No. That is not what -- that wasn't my 21 understanding. They -- you know, of course Mr. Rinder said 22 that he would like this case to go away. 23 Q Well, that is not setting the record straight. Is 24 it? 25 A That is not what he wanted us to do. He wanted us
571 1 to set the record straight. He felt if the record was 2 actually set straight, that that would be the effect that it 3 had -- 4 Q Well, Mr. -- 5 A -- because he -- because he felt that the case 6 was -- Mmm, you know, that there were a lot of things about 7 the case that were -- that were false. And that there was 8 another whole -- you know, that kind of thing, just another 9 agenda going on. That it was an attack against Scientology 10 and not -- and that it wasn't legitimately being litigated. 11 Q How would -- 12 A So we did talk about that. 13 Q How would they know what in the record was not 14 true? 15 A Well, they didn't. But he just said, you know, 16 you guys have been in a number of depositions and your 17 stories have changed on various issues. 18 They never went into detail about any specific 19 things. 20 Q Well -- 21 A Any -- 22 Q What changed -- 23 A Sir. That didn't really start -- that whole 24 process really didn't start until Saturday, April 6th, the 25 day after Judge Schaeffer let Mr. --
572 1 Q Well -- 2 THE COURT: Wait a minute, I would like to hear 3 her answer. 4 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 5 THE COURT: The day after Judge Schaeffer did 6 not find Mr. Minton in contempt? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Which was 8 April 5th. 9 THE COURT: What discussions happened the day 10 after that? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, the day after that, the 12 Saturday after that Friday, is when Mr. Minton 13 called Mr. Rinder and said he wanted to come over 14 and start the process of setting the record 15 straight. 16 THE COURT: So during this first meeting there 17 wasn't any discussion as to what that was? 18 THE WITNESS: No, not at all. And, in fact -- 19 well, can I -- can I talk about what happened next? 20 THE COURT: Well, actually, we need to go back 21 to letting him ask his questions. So go ahead. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And that is my question. If you have a meeting, 24 we want to set the record straight, how would they have any 25 idea there was anything in the record that needed to be set
573 1 straight? 2 A Well, I don't know if you read any of these 3 deposition transcripts. I have had the opportunity to 4 reread some of them. And I think it is pretty obvious to 5 anyone that, you know Mr. Minton and I were both, you know, 6 giving different answers at different times. 7 Q On what? Tell me what. 8 A Well, for example, with regard to the agreement 9 for the bulk of the proceeds to go to the LMT. 10 First, you know, there were early depositions in 11 which an early -- an early deposition or maybe more, I can't 12 remember, where Mr. Minton was just, you know, very excited, 13 yes, it's going to happen, you know. Then a later 14 deposition where he's like, no, there is no such thing. 15 You know, once we got into the process of setting 16 the record straight, it was pretty clear to me how they 17 could have gotten the impression that something in the 18 record needed to be set straight. 19 Also, the discovery evasion that had been going 20 on. You know, what I think is that it was pretty obvious to 21 them that something was going on that -- that we weren't 22 being forthcoming about something. 23 Q Well, I think it's clear you didn't turn over any 24 of the LMT records that were requested of you. 25 A Right. And we -- well, we've already talked about
574 1 the other things that -- 2 Q That didn't have anything to do with Mr. Dandar, 3 did it? 4 A No, there were other things, too. 5 Q None -- 6 A I think I already testified to that about it. 7 Q But the LMT records had nothing to do with 8 Mr. Dandar so there is no record to be set straight as far 9 as that is concerned. Right? 10 A Well, there were discovery issues and -- well, I 11 mean document production issues, as well as testimony issues 12 that needed to be set straight. 13 Q Well, the only testimony issues -- your testimony 14 certainly implies that there is tons of stuff that we need 15 to set the record straight? 16 A No, there was just a few fairly major things. 17 Q One about the agreement. What else? What else 18 was obvious that was untrue -- 19 THE COURT: How many times do we have to listen 20 to this woman tell us what her testimony has been 21 all these days? She told us what they are. And do 22 you really think just by asking her again she's 23 going to tell you anything different? 24 As I said, there is a thing called leading 25 questions. If you are going to pursue it, pursue
575 1 it. But if you are going to let her narrate, she'll 2 narrate the same thing she told you three, four, 3 maybe five times. All right? 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q All right. There was nothing obvious in any of 6 those depositions about the check that you talked about 7 being the subject of incorrect testimony, nothing obvious in 8 anybody's deposition -- 9 THE COURT: Are you trying to -- 10 A Are you telling me? 11 THE COURT: Are you trying to say they had the 12 check and say, "Here, Minton, you know you lied, 13 here is the check"? 14 MR. LIROT: That is not my question, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 16 THE WITNESS: They didn't, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q They never had any check at that point in time. 20 The $500,000 check from, I guess, May of 2000? 21 A I never saw them produce anything like that. 22 Q So that wouldn't be obvious to anybody. 23 A No. Matter of fact, it was a huge, huge surprise 24 to them when Mr. Minton told them about it. 25 Q And when did he tell them about it?
576 1 A On Saturday, April 6th. 2 Q Okay. What else did Mr. Minton tell them? 3 MR. WEINBERG: At what point in time? 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q I'm still on my meeting. 6 A Oh. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 8 A Which meeting? 9 THE COURT: March 28. 10 MR. LIROT: I still want to go back to the 11 28th, Judge. 12 A Well, that answer I gave you didn't have anything 13 to do with that. I have actually finished talking about 14 March 28. 15 But I could tell you more about what happened on 16 March 29. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Well, Ms. Brooks, you testified this meeting 19 lasted several hours. And your description of the important 20 events of the meeting has been very brief, very cryptic, and 21 I'm trying to fill in what I consider to be several hours, 22 something must have happened -- 23 A Well -- 24 Q I don't want to be argumentative and I don't want 25 to be disrespectful, but something happened during this
577 1 several-hour meeting. 2 A Well, I think cryptic is not a good description of 3 what I have said. I tried as hard as I could to tell you 4 what happened during the meeting. 5 THE COURT: Have you covered everything as far 6 as you are telling us that happened in that meeting? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: If you think there is something 9 more, you're going to have to ask her. 10 MR. LIROT: I am trying, Judge. 11 THE COURT: Well, you can't let her tell you 12 because she's going to tell you what she has told 13 you. 14 If you think there was something else, you have 15 to refresh her memory, ask her, impeach her, if you 16 can. 17 MR. LIROT: I will get there, Judge. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Mr. Jonas was at that meeting. All right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q That first meeting? 22 A He was at both. 23 Q At both meetings? 24 A Well, at both days of the meeting. 25 Q And there was a demand made that if the settlement
578 1 was going to happen, the wrongful death case had to be 2 dismissed. There was nothing said about setting the record 3 straight. The demand was made the case had to be dismissed 4 no matter what, isn't that correct? 5 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I object to 6 the testimony. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. I think this is an 8 effort at leading. 9 A That is not my memory. I told you what happened 10 in the meeting, to the best of my recollection. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, Mr. Jonas was at the meeting. Right? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And he understood that -- the demands that were 15 made at the meeting, would you believe he would? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. LIROT: Judge, give me just one second. 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Well, you met on the 28th and you met on the 29th. 21 You went back the very next day? 22 A Yes. 23 Q All right. Tell me about the meeting on the 29th? 24 A Okay. On the 29th we went in in the morning. And 25 Mr. Jonas basically said that his client, Mr. Minton and I,
579 1 were willing to begin the process of, you know, dealing with 2 the issues in the wrongful death case, but in return for 3 that we required that they continue the two contempt 4 hearings, one before Judge Schaeffer and one before Judge 5 Baird, and also the deposition before Judge Baird that was 6 scheduled for April 5th, 8th and 9th. 7 And then they left and -- they left the room to go 8 discuss that. 9 Then they came back and Mr. Rosen said -- Mmm, we 10 aren't going to continue anything. We're not in settlement 11 discussions with you right now. We aren't going to give you 12 any kind of concession until you deal with the wrongful 13 death case. 14 MR. LIROT: Okay. Judge, may I approach? 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 A So then -- 17 THE COURT: Wait a second now. He wants to 18 approach. I think he figures you answered that 19 question. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Let me hand you a letter from Mr. Jonas dated 22 March 25, 2002. 23 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think this will be 24 Plaintiff's Exhibit 11. 25 THE COURT: Correct.
580 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm assuming that 2 you -- that it was all right for me to violate this 3 confidentiality agreement in your court? 4 THE COURT: It certainly was all right with me. 5 Matter of fact, I would have required it. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 THE COURT: But I have no idea what that means 8 as far as whatever agreement you had made or 9 whatever agreement you contemplate making. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I'm just talking about this 11 agreement. 12 THE COURT: All I can tell you is you have your 13 options here. If you say that you are not going to 14 speak about what happened because of some 15 confidentiality agreement, I'm likely to strike your 16 testimony and not consider it. I mean, I'm not 17 party to this and so you either have got to violate 18 the agreement or you don't. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this is the agreement that 20 I think was raised in the hearing before -- in fact, 21 I know it's the agreement raised in the hearing 22 before Judge Baird. And Mr. Rosen indicated before 23 Judge Baird and I indicated to your Honor on a 24 conference call with all counsel that we waived any 25 confidentiality and they can talk about anything
581 1 they want to. 2 THE COURT: So you are telling her -- 3 MR. FUGATE: As far as we're concerned -- 4 THE COURT: -- as far as the Church of 5 Scientology is concerned, they will waive the 6 provision that is in this letter? 7 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 8 THE COURT: And she is free to discuss this 9 with the Court? 10 MR. FUGATE: That is absolutely correct. 11 THE COURT: I think that should be 12 satisfactory. 13 THE WITNESS: I probably should have checked 14 that before I started. 15 THE COURT: No, I think that Mr. Fugate has 16 indicated at the last hearing when this was 17 mentioned when Mr. Minton was testifying, but the 18 lawyer never followed up on it. 19 And I was told something about this hearing 20 that there was this confidentiality agreement. 21 Mr. Fugate said, "I waived it," so I think you are 22 okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 24 THE COURT: As I said, frankly, if they hadn't 25 waived it, I would have ordered you to respond and
582 1 then you would have been in a pickle because you 2 would have either responded or you would have gone 3 to jail. 4 THE WITNESS: I hate it when you say that, your 5 Honor. 6 THE COURT: I know. But I'm here and I have a 7 lot of people here and I have somebody that might 8 see what -- you know, that I don't have any choice. 9 I say you have got to answer and if you don't then I 10 have got to act. 11 But we don't have to worry about that so 12 proceed on. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Jonas -- I think you were 15 testifying Mr. Jonas represented you at these meetings? 16 A Yes. 17 THE COURT: What is the next number, Counselor? 18 MR. DANDAR: This is 11. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. Madam Clerk, do you 20 have this? 21 THE CLERK: No, I don't, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Do you want to give the clerk -- 23 MR. LIROT: I'll give her my copy, Judge. I 24 just want to ask a question about it first. 25
583 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q It says that the last full sentence of the 3 first -- the first paragraph it says, "Without trying to 4 anticipate all of the ways in which this agreement could be 5 violated, it is specifically agreed that the discussions 6 will not be posted on the Internet, will not be inquired 7 into in discovery in any litigation, will not be revealed in 8 any court papers or any court." 9 How do you set the record straight when you have 10 that as part of your deal? 11 A What do you mean? 12 Q Well, doesn't it say that nothing about these 13 meetings will be revealed in court? Wasn't that one of the 14 ground rules? 15 A I guess I don't understand your question really. 16 I mean, that was referring to this settlement discussion 17 that I just spent quite some time describing to you. 18 Q All right. How do you set the record straight if 19 you're not going to reveal any of these issues in court? 20 A Mmm, I think you might be misreading this. 21 Q Well, if I am, correct me. 22 A Okay. He's talking about the content of the 23 settlement talk that we had. 24 Q Okay. 25 A But what ended up happening was we didn't have a
584 1 settlement talk, really. So, you know, technically 2 speaking, there is really -- I guess there really was no 3 problem with a violation of this agreement itself. But 4 there certainly isn't anything in this thing that talks 5 about any kind of prohibition on talking about what happened 6 in a lawsuit. 7 Q Well, my question to you is simple. How do you 8 set the record straight if part of your deal is you are not 9 going to reveal any information in court? 10 THE COURT: Maybe you ought to save that for 11 me, Counselor. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think you are doing apples 13 and oranges here, really, because we weren't -- what 14 was addressed in terms of setting the record 15 straight wasn't the settlement meeting that we were 16 having. It was our testimony in the wrongful death 17 case. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Well, let me ask you this. Are these all cases in 20 which Bob Minton is a party? 21 A No. 22 Q So this umbrella of confidentiality goes to other 23 cases? 24 A I -- the umbrella of confidentiality goes to the 25 settlement discussions, not cases.
585 1 THE COURT: By the way, I didn't think about 2 this, but now that Mr. Minton has been added as a 3 party, he's at liberty to sit in the courtroom. 4 Right? He's not here. And as I said, I saw him at 5 lunchtime and told him he was free -- as far as I 6 was concerned, I could tell him I was not -- I would 7 not require them to call him today, but I 8 anticipated Ms. Brooks would take the rest of the 9 day. But if he wants to come now that he has been 10 added as a party, he's permitted to be in the 11 courtroom. 12 THE WITNESS: You should advise him of that. 13 THE COURT: So, Mr. Howie, you are free to call 14 your client, or if he's out there or he's somewhere 15 where he can be reached, he'll be allowed to be in 16 here. I'm sorry, Counsel, I interrupted you. 17 MR. LIROT: No, quite all right. I'm looking 18 at these letters, Judge. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Let me ask you then what happened on the 29th? 21 This letter was obviously written on March 25th and you had 22 your first meeting on the 28th of several hours. 23 What time did you meet on the 29th? 24 A Mmm, perhaps ten in the morning. 25 Q All right. The same place?
586 1 A Yes. 2 Q New York, in Mr. Rosen's office? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who was in attendance at this second meeting? 5 A The same people. 6 Q The same exact people? 7 A The same exact people. 8 Q All right. And those, as I understand it, were 9 Mr. Jonas, you, Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder, Mr. Rosen and 10 Miss Yingling? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What did you talk about at the second meeting? 13 A Well, as I said, Mr. Jonas said that Mr. Minton 14 and I were willing to begin dealing with the issues in the 15 wrongful death case but that we required that -- that, in 16 return, as a concession from their side, that they continue 17 Judge Schaeffer's contempt hearing, Judge Baird's contempt 18 hearing and a deposition that was set for Mr. Minton in the 19 Baird -- in the breach case for April 8th. 20 And Mr. Rosen -- and then they left -- I think I 21 just said this, your Honor, but -- 22 THE COURT: You did. 23 A Then they left for a little while. Then they came 24 back. And Mr. Rosen said, "We aren't willing to begin any 25 kind of settlement discussions or give you any concessions
587 1 in any way until you have dealt with the matters involving 2 the wrongful death case." 3 And so I got -- I particularly got extremely upset 4 with them for this and felt that -- and said that I felt 5 that they weren't acting in good faith, and I stood up and 6 we all left at that point. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q And so how long was the second meeting? 9 A It wasn't very long. 10 Q All right. How did you leave? You just got up 11 and left the room? 12 A Yeah. We got up and went back to Mr. Jonas's 13 office. And then about an hour later, maybe, Mr. Rinder 14 called Mr. Minton and -- 15 THE COURT: Was he still at the lawyer's 16 office? 17 THE WITNESS: He was still at Mr. Jonas's -- 18 not Mr. Jonas's office but the New York offices of 19 Hale & Dorr. 20 And I didn't hear Mr. Rinder's side of the 21 conversation, but Mr. Minton later told us that he 22 said basically, you know, "I hope you understand 23 that this is not intended to -- to, you know, break 24 off our discussions. We just require this 25 precondition before we can continue."
588 1 So -- so at that point, Mr. Minton said, "Well, 2 we --" I think he said, "Well, we did kind of think 3 that you were acting in bad faith," or something 4 like that. 5 Then -- 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q By not continuing these contempt hearings? 8 A Yes. 9 Q All right. 10 A And then -- and then we got Mr. Howie on the 11 phone, I think we got Mr. McGowan on the phone, too, if I'm 12 not mistaken, and told them that these hearings were going 13 forward and that we needed to start preparations for these 14 hearings. And we switched over to preparations for these 15 two hearings and that deposition that were coming up the 16 next week. 17 Q Okay. What did you do in the interim, after the 18 29th? When was the first court hearing? Was it in front of 19 Judge Schaeffer? 20 A Friday, April 5, I believe. 21 Q That was the one in front of Judge Schaeffer where 22 it was the continued contempt hearing involving Mr. Minton? 23 A Not continued. 24 THE COURT: Not continued. It was the contempt 25 hearing.
589 1 A It was the one we wanted to have continued but 2 didn't get continued. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q So that one hadn't begun before. It was the one 5 in front of Judge Baird, that was a continued hearing? 6 A It was? I wasn't aware of that. 7 Q So between the 29th of March and April 5th when 8 Mr. Minton was here before Judge Schaeffer, what 9 communication did you have with the Church that you can 10 recall? 11 A I don't believe there was any. I don't recall 12 that there was any. I mean, it was broken off with 13 pretty -- you know -- 14 Q Did you think that -- 15 A -- sharply. 16 Q -- communications -- did you think that settlement 17 possibilities at that time were over? 18 A No. We thought that we were in a really bad 19 position, because in order for us to get to the point of 20 Scientology being willing to settle anything with us, we 21 were going to have to go before the court -- both courts -- 22 or if -- you know, if we would -- in order for that to 23 happen, we would have to go before both courts and recant 24 testimony and correct the record for both of us. And -- and 25 we were both -- Mmm, well, we were very conflicted about it
590 1 and spoke to Mr. Dandar -- I believe we spoke to him on both 2 the night of March 28th and the night of March 29th. 3 But the night of March 29th, after they said that 4 they wouldn't continue those hearings, we had a very 5 upsetting conversation with Mr. Dandar. 6 Q And that was on Good Friday? Was March 29th Good 7 Friday? 8 A March 29th? If that was Good Friday, that is when 9 the conversation happened. 10 Q Were you privy -- 11 THE COURT: Excuse me just one second. 12 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: Did you indicate that you had had a 14 conversation with Mr. Dandar after the first hearing 15 on the 28th, the night of the 28th, and the night of 16 the 29th? 17 THE WITNESS: I believe we did, your Honor. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Meeting. 19 MR. FUGATE: The first meeting. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Meeting, not hearing. You said 21 after the first hearing. 22 THE WITNESS: No, after the first day of the 23 meeting. 24 THE COURT: Right. Then you had a discussion 25 with Mr. Dandar on the 28th and another discussion
591 1 with him on the 29th? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q So that the meeting on the 28th is several hours 6 and you talked to Mr. Dandar that night? 7 A I'm pretty sure we did. 8 Q All right. Did you personally talk with 9 Mr. Dandar? Or was it just Mr. Minton? 10 A Mmm, I don't remember on the conversation of the 11 28th. I know we both talked to him on the 29th. 12 Q Do you remember any of the contents of the 13 conversation with Mr. Dandar on the 28th? 14 A Mmm, I think -- because on the night -- this is -- 15 I'll do my best. 16 On the night of the 28th, we still were thinking 17 that we would be able to basically work out some kind of an 18 agreement with the Scientology that would allow us to settle 19 without having to come before the Court. 20 But I believe that it was the night of the 28th 21 when Mr. Minton first told Mr. Dandar that he was going to 22 have to tell the truth about the checks. I'm not sure about 23 that, but I -- I think that was when he told him that his 24 attorney had instructed him that he was going to have to 25 come forward and recant that testimony.
592 1 Q And that would be Mr. Jonas? 2 A Yes. 3 Q All right. And -- 4 A And Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Minton told me that 5 Mr. Dandar I think -- I don't think I was privy to 6 Mr. Dandar's conversation on this. 7 Q Well, let me -- 8 A But I did come away with it knowing that -- or -- 9 believing that Mr. Dandar's response was, basically, "No, 10 you can't do that. You know, you can't -- you can't -- you 11 can't do that," basically. 12 Q What about on the 29th? You had another phone 13 call with Mr. Dandar? 14 A Yeah. The 29th when we were back in New Hampshire 15 by then, we were very, very frightened about what was going 16 to happen to us. We were feeling very much cornered and 17 feeling that there was no way out of this whole thing for 18 us. 19 And we -- we felt very strongly that night that -- 20 and Mr. Minton got on the phone and told Mr. Dandar -- and 21 he was very upset when he spoke to him -- he said, you know, 22 "You have got to drop this case. You have just got to drop 23 this case. And that is the only way to avoid all this 24 stuff" or, you know, words to that effect. 25 THE COURT: You could hear Mr. Minton or --
593 1 THE WITNESS: No, I was on the speakerphone 2 now. Now we were on a speakerphone up in the attic. 3 And Mr. Minton -- 4 THE COURT: Is there some reason you were in 5 the attic? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, the attic is not -- the 7 attic in the farmhouse in New Hampshire is a real 8 room. It's just a top floor. 9 THE COURT: I just had visions of you two 10 huddled up in some attic somewhere. 11 THE WITNESS: It's a nice attic. 12 THE COURT: Well, I just bought a house and my 13 attic is not very nice and you can't make any phone 14 calls from it. 15 So you all were in a real room on a 16 speakerphone. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Then Mr. Dandar got very 18 upset. And he said, "I can't believe you are asking 19 me to do this," you know, "my client will never do 20 that." 21 Oh, yeah, and I think that was when -- because 22 I think we had -- the night before, we were going to 23 meet him in Cleveland or something to talk about 24 what was happening and to -- you know, to talk about 25 it in person.
594 1 Then on the 29th, I think -- or -- maybe that 2 was in a later conversation. But in any case, 3 Mr. Dandar said, you know, "I don't want to meet 4 you. You'll give me a heart attack. I don't want 5 to talk about this." You know. 6 Then the next day or a few days later, maybe 7 Sunday or something, he sent a big long letter which 8 was like totally, Mmm, you know a CYA letter. 9 THE COURT: Who did? 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar sent it to Mr. Minton. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: You know, it was very pious and, 13 you know, "I can't believe you would do this. I 14 would never do anything bad. If I would have 15 known --" 16 THE COURT: If somebody will introduce the 17 letter rather than have her try to recall it, why 18 don't we get it up here and see if she can recognize 19 it, see if it becomes admissible and we'll see where 20 we are. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, the main thing I remember 22 about the letter, that was the first place -- that 23 was the first time Mr. Dandar's defense about this 24 whole thing began to be apparent. Because one of 25 the things that he said in the letter was, "If I
595 1 would have known there was anything wrong with your 2 money, I would have never taken it." 3 Bob and I are like, "What?" 4 You know, this is like totally some fiction 5 that he's now starting to concoct, it was really 6 upsetting. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Do you have a copy of the letter? 9 A No. 10 Q Does Mr. Minton have a copy of the letter? Do you 11 know? 12 A Mmm, he would probably be able to get one. 13 Because it was an E-Mail. 14 Q It was an E-Mail? 15 A Yes. An E-mailed letter. 16 Q Okay. Did you ever see a letter that Mr. Dandar 17 wrote to Mr. Jonas? 18 A Mmm, yes, I do -- I believe I did. And I also saw 19 Mr. Jonas's response. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach? 21 THE COURT: You may. 22 A In which he corrected what Mr. Dandar said. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Ms. Brooks, I have an April 10 letter from 25 Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas --
596 1 THE COURT: You want to tell us what number 2 this is and do we have something for the Court and 3 clerk? 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, this will be Number 12. 5 THE COURT: And what is that? 6 MR. LIROT: This is the April 10th, 2002 letter 7 from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. LIROT: And then Number 13 will be the 10 April 11th letter from Mr. Jonas back to Mr. Dandar 11 in response. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, before we get to that, 14 that last exhibit -- I'm sorry, Luke, but that last 15 exhibit that you never gave the clerk, do you want 16 to give it to her, have her put a number on it? 17 MR. LIROT: Number 11? 18 THE COURT: It's Number 10. 19 MR. LIROT: That one is Number -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Whatever it was, it is still 21 sitting there. 22 THE COURT: You have a bunch of stuff, 23 Mr. Lirot. I mean, Mr. Dandar does this to me from 24 time to time. You have stuff handed up that hasn't 25 been admitted that you haven't introduced it. That
597 1 would be cancellation fair game and some of this 2 stuff. I don't know, maybe you just don't want it 3 in. 4 MR. DANDAR: No. No. 5 MR. WEINBERG: 3/25/02 -- 6 MR. DANDAR: That is the confidentiality 7 letter, Exhibit 11 of the plaintiff. 8 THE COURT: Well, has that been introduced? 9 MR. DANDAR: She just identified it. 10 MR. WEINBERG: It hasn't been given to the 11 clerk. 12 THE COURT: The confidentiality letter, has 13 that been introduced? 14 MR. LIROT: That is an exhibit to the omnibus 15 motion, Exhibit Number 73. 16 THE COURT: I understand that. You made it a 17 number for the benefit of the hearing. Has it been 18 introduced? 19 MR. LIROT: I would like to introduce all of 20 them. 21 MR. DANDAR: This is the one we're talking 22 about. That is 11. 23 MR. LIROT: Oh. 24 MR. DANDAR: There is a copy up here somewhere. 25 MR. LIROT: All right. So we have -- we have
598 1 the March 25th, 2002, as Exhibit Number 11. I'll 2 just write that on here. 3 THE COURT: No. Give it to the clerk. She's 4 going to do this. That is why I have a clerk here. 5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, would you ask 6 Mr. Howie if he was able to reach Mr. Minton? 7 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, were you able to reach 8 Mr. Minton? 9 MR. HOWIE: No, I was not able to. I left a 10 voice mail message. 11 THE WITNESS: On his cell phone? 12 THE COURT: On the cell phone? 13 THE WITNESS: On his cell phone. 14 THE COURT: Here I am being some intermediary 15 between the witness and Mr. Minton. 16 MR. HOWIE: I left a voice mail message on 17 Mr. Minton's cell phone. 18 THE COURT: Do you know a way where he might 19 better reach him? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Do you want to do this? Come up 22 and find out from this witness? 23 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 24 MR. LIROT: I have Number 11 for the clerk, 25 Judge.
599 1 THE COURT: Great. Madam clerk, would you 2 please mark that as admitted. 3 MR. LIROT: And I have the April 10th letter 4 from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas which will be 5 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 12. And I have a copy 6 for the court, and the clerk. And I have the 7 April 11th letter from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas -- 8 THE COURT: I have seen these letters. These 9 letters were exhibits to something. 10 MR. LIROT: They are. They're exhibits to our 11 response in opposition to the omnibus motion. 12 THE COURT: All right. So this is Number 12 13 and 13? 14 MR. LIROT: That is correct. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. LIROT: I'll give the clerk Number 13. I 17 would like to refer to it for my questions. 18 MR. DANDAR: What is 13? 19 MR. LIROT: Number 13 is the April 11th letter. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Do you recognize those letters? 22 A Yes. 23 Q I know you recognize the confidentiality letter. 24 The April 10 letter from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas? 25 A Yes, I do.
600 1 Q All right. And you recognize the April 11 letter 2 from Mr. Jonas back to Mr. Dandar? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And isn't it true in that letter he doesn't say 5 anything about setting the record straight? What he talks 6 about is dismissal of the case? 7 A Yes. That is what he says. 8 Q All right. Now, when you came up on, I guess it 9 was, April 5th, at that point in time, was that the day you 10 were served with the Armstrong suit? Was that in this 11 courtroom? 12 A Mmm, that might have been. That might have been. 13 You guys might recall better than me. 14 Q I wasn't here. 15 A Because it happened out in the hall. First 16 Mr. McGowan tried to accept service from me and he said he 17 couldn't give it to him because he wasn't a California 18 attorney or something, so he served me as I was getting into 19 the elevator. 20 Q Okay. On April 5 was there any discussion about a 21 meeting for the next day? 22 A No. 23 Q On April 6 -- 24 A I don't believe so. 25 Q -- on April 6 you said there was a meeting,
601 1 though, is that correct? 2 A Mr. Minton -- well, I don't remember if he called 3 him that night or the next day. I think it was the next 4 day. 5 But it certainly was something we discussed at 6 length that night. 7 Q This is the night after the contempt hearing here 8 in front of Judge Schaeffer? 9 A Yes. This is the night after a miracle happened, 10 as far as we were concerned. 11 Q And did you make any calls? Did you or Mr. Minton 12 call your attorneys, say, "Look, we need to get this 13 resolved? How did this meeting the next day evolve? How 14 did you get it set up?" 15 A Mmm, I'm pretty sure that Mr. Minton just called 16 Mr. Rinder. Either that night or the next day. I can't 17 remember which. But I'm pretty sure he just called him and 18 said, "I'm ready to start." 19 Q And this is after he had escaped, I guess, what he 20 was concerned with here in this courtroom? 21 A Well, you weren't there, were you? 22 Q No. 23 A Mmm, Judge Schaeffer was fairly clear that he had 24 skated on a technicality and that she was not going to stand 25 for any further contempt in her court, I think is what she
602 1 might have said. And she pretty much struck the fear of God 2 in Mr. Minton. 3 And we walked out of the courtroom and were really 4 just stunned that he hadn't been found guilty of contempt 5 and that she hadn't sent him to jail. I mean, we just kind 6 of felt like it was, you know, one of those brushes with 7 death. 8 Q Okay. But it was over. He skated, in your words? 9 A You know, he still had depositions to go through. 10 It wasn't over at all. 11 Q But he didn't have to lie at any of the other 12 depositions. He could have been honest? 13 A Well, he -- that's what he planned. That is what 14 he decided he was going to do. 15 Q He was going to be honest? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q He wasn't going to lie anymore? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Nothing to fear here anymore? 20 A Well, he didn't feel that way. 21 Q Why? Do you know? I mean, was there something 22 else eating at him? I guess he told you he was worried 23 about this contempt. There is one down, one to go, all we 24 have to worry about is Judge Baird? 25 A I don't think you understand what the situation
603 1 was. And, I mean, this is not a legal analysis of the 2 situation, but what was happening in our minds was -- Mmm -- 3 he was ordered back into another deposition in Judge 4 Schaeffer's case that hadn't happened yet and another one in 5 Judge Baird's case, and he was -- he was very afraid, and so 6 was I, about what was going to happen if he -- if he didn't 7 go to Scientology and start telling them what had been going 8 on. That was what he had been talking about with Mr. Dandar 9 and why he was asking Mr. Dandar to drop the case, so it 10 wouldn't come to all of this. He -- 11 Q But he -- forgive me if I seem tenacious here, but 12 he's already off the hook here, so he goes in, he's worried 13 about Judge Schaeffer putting him in jail, he skates on a 14 technicality. 15 So at that point all he has to do is be honest 16 from thereon out and he doesn't have any more problems in 17 this case. Judge Schaeffer will not put him in jail if he's 18 honest? 19 A That's right. But, you know, the other -- the 20 other thing that was happening on this whole thing was 21 basically this whole issue of -- of turning on -- on this 22 case, on -- on all of the people that -- I mean, you know, 23 the -- the ramifications of his coming in and, you know, 24 talking about, you know, what Mr. Dandar had been doing, 25 what he had been doing, what I'd been doing, for us to come
604 1 forward and start telling the truth about these things, 2 well, it's like one of the other people -- well, it's like 3 somebody said to Mr. Minton outside the courthouse the other 4 day, you know, "How could you do this? How could you do 5 this to the case?" 6 And Mr. Minton said, you know, "I'm telling the 7 truth now." 8 And she said, "What difference does the truth 9 make? We're trying to win a lawsuit against Scientology for 10 killing Lisa McPherson." 11 Well, you know, that is an attitude that is fairly 12 widespread. And we were basically contemplating -- I think 13 I said this the other day -- but what we were getting ready 14 to do was basically go start talking to what up until that 15 minute we and everybody else that we worked with had 16 considered to be the enemy. 17 You can say, "Well, why don't you just come in and 18 start telling the truth." But, I mean, he knew -- and this 19 is what they were referring to -- or Mr. Jonas was referring 20 to here when he said about bringing the dismissal of the 21 Lisa McPherson case. 22 We felt strongly that is what would be the effect 23 if we came forward and started talking about what was really 24 going on. And that is a fairly -- well, it was -- you know, 25 now I look at it differently. But at that time this was
605 1 just a -- you know, an unimaginable thing for us to do. It 2 was an unimaginable thing for us to do. 3 And on Saturday when we went over and talked to -- 4 talked to them, we were there for quite a while before 5 Mr. Minton said, you know, "I have got to go outside for a 6 break." And we went outside and he just started gagging at 7 the idea of what he was about to start doing. You know, it 8 was like, in our minds, it was so treasonous, so traitorous 9 to do that. And then we looked at each other and he said, 10 "Okay, let's go." Then he started telling them what was 11 really going on in the case. 12 Q And he talked about the check? Or had he already 13 talked about the check, the $500,000 May check? 14 A That was the day it started. 15 Q And he talked about the check. Then I guess he 16 said that -- I wasn't there -- 17 THE COURT: Excuse me one second, were there 18 two checks that had already been given? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, there were two checks. 20 THE COURT: By that time, the other $250,000 21 check had been written? I don't know, it had been 22 testified to one way or the other as the $500,000 23 check that had been written and there has been 24 testimony not mentioning that check. 25 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge.
606 1 THE COURT: So by this time we're talking about 2 two checks? 3 MR. LIROT: That's correct. 4 THE COURT: So there were two checks? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q So he's in there, he's testifying truthfully, he 8 doesn't feel good about it. 9 I guess the concern on his part was he didn't want 10 to look bad to I guess what you call the fraternity of 11 critics against Scientology? He didn't want to look bad to 12 those people? 13 A Well, no, I wouldn't say that was accurate. It 14 was -- what I said was it was an unimaginably tremendous 15 step, threshold for us to cross, to sit down with Mr. Rinder 16 and Ms. Yingling and start to tell them things that we knew 17 would -- 18 THE COURT: What you believed derailed the 19 wrongful death? 20 THE WITNESS: Right, what we believed. 21 A And these had been things going on, in order to 22 avoid derailing the wrongful death case, for a very long 23 time. And now we were crossing a threshold in which, you 24 know, the consequences were not really -- I mean, you know, 25 I look back on how we felt on April 6th and, you know, I was
607 1 a different person then than I am now, totally. And so was 2 Mr. Minton. 3 And that day we began to crawl out of the very 4 deep hole that we had dug for ourselves. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Hadn't you already crossed that line when you had 7 that meeting on the 28th and 29th of March? 8 A No. 9 THE COURT: You had not told them anything on 10 the 28th and 29th is what she's saying. 11 A We had not told them anything until the 6th. We 12 had not begun the process until April 6th. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Explain to me, your concern you are going to 15 derail the case, so to stop it from getting derailed, you 16 want it dismissed. I don't understand the difference? 17 A Well, you know, if the case -- Mr. Lirot, if the 18 case could have just been dismissed, none of this testimony 19 would have ever happened, none of these consequences would 20 ever have occurred to any of the players in this whole drama 21 that is now being played out. You know, we've been 22 threatened now; we've been -- we've been, you know, on a 23 daily basis Mr. Minton is being intimidated by one of your 24 people -- or actually two of your people outside of this 25 courthouse. You know, people that --
608 1 Q Who? 2 A -- used to be very, very close comrades at arms 3 with us. 4 Q Who is intimidating him? 5 A Now -- 6 THE COURT: Wait a second. He asked you a 7 question. 8 Who is intimidating him? 9 THE WITNESS: Mmm, Jesse Prince. I'm not 10 saying me. I'm saying Mr. Minton. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: Jesse Prince and Patricia 13 Greenway. And Patricia Greenway has repeatedly 14 tried to intimidate Mr. Minton to the point 15 yesterday she got in the elevator and started in on 16 him and upset him a lot. And that is how come 17 Mr. Howie had to come in today and ask the judge to 18 make that announcement that she made. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q So here is a guy who has been hounded for about 21 five years all over the world, hit over the head with sticks 22 or whatever else I read in that. 23 A Not by his friends. 24 Q It will speak for itself. 25 A Not by his friends. Not by people who used to be
609 1 his friends who are now furious with him because he's 2 telling the truth. It's a very -- it's a very -- Mmm, it's 3 a very unbelievable situation. 4 Q So all of the friends he had that Scientologists 5 allegedly chased away from him, that didn't bother him, 6 though, losing those friends didn't matter? It's just now 7 that he has a couple people disappointed in him because he 8 changed sides, that is breaking him down now? Is that your 9 testimony? 10 A No, that wasn't my testimony. 11 Q He's distraught at some point because people he 12 used to care about or worked with or shared beliefs are 13 disappointed in him? 14 A No, I said he was distraught because Ms. Greenway 15 cornered him in the elevator and started going at him. And 16 he felt very intimidated by that and told his attorney about 17 it and wanted his attorney to get the judge to get that to 18 stop. 19 Q And he's not made any contact with her 20 voluntarily? 21 A No. He hasn't. He hasn't called Ms. Greenway 22 since probably a year ago. 23 Q Okay. 24 A And if she told you differently, it's not true. 25 Q What about Mr. Prince? Have you contacted
610 1 Mr. Prince in the last two weeks? 2 A Yes. I did. I tried to reach him a couple of 3 times. And he's tried to reach us a few times, as well. 4 Q All right. So is this combative? Or are you guys 5 on good terms? 6 A No, when we were trying to talk to each other, it 7 wasn't combative at all. I mean, Jesse used to be a very, 8 very dear friend of Bob's and mine. 9 Q Is he still a dear friend? 10 A He seems to be -- Mmm, very upset with us for what 11 we're doing. 12 Q Well, let me put this in perspective for this 13 question. On April 6 you go in and that is the epiphany of 14 ethics that Mr. Minton has about giving out the information 15 about the checks and the agreement. Anything else? 16 A You know, I don't remember all of the different 17 things that were brought up, but I think it's covered in all 18 of our affidavits. I mean, you know, it's been a very long 19 process. 20 Q Well, you do this on the 6th. And you're afraid 21 that this is going to derail the case. If this is all done 22 on the 6th, why are you still demanding the case be 23 dismissed? You already told the truth at this point, right, 24 on April 6? 25 A Well, what I think I said was that we began the
611 1 process on April 6th. It's been a process -- 2 Q You began the process? 3 A Yes. It's been going on -- what is the date 4 today? Well, almost exactly a month at this point. 5 Q The process dealing with the issues you have 6 already testified about? 7 A Yes. 8 Q All right. So -- 9 A That culminated in our affidavits and -- 10 Q And I'll get to that in a second. 11 But, you know, on April 6th you have begun the 12 process. Yet on the 11th you are still writing letters 13 saying, "We insist this case has to be dismissed"? 14 THE COURT: Which exhibit is that? 15 MR. LIROT: Exhibit 13, the letter from 16 Mr. Jonas to Mr. Dandar dated April 11th. 17 A What? Mmm, I think Mr. Jonas was trying to 18 correct a lot of the inflammatory rhetoric in Mr. Dandar's 19 April 10 letter. I think that was the purpose of Mr. -- 20 MR. FUGATE: I object to that question 21 because -- 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 MR. FUGATE: -- there is no foundation. 24 THE COURT: Sustained because I'm not sure that 25 is what they're talking about. They're talking
612 1 about a conversation that occurred on March 29th 2 which was before April 6th. 3 MR. LIROT: Right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q The letter is after April 6, though, isn't that 6 correct? The April 11 letter? 7 A Well, it's in response to an April 10 letter from 8 Mr. Dandar. 9 Q But your attorney is still insisting that the case 10 be dismissed. Is that correct? 11 A No. No. Read the letter, Mr. Lirot. That is not 12 at all what it said. Mr. Jonas is correcting a lot of the 13 inflammatory rhetoric that Mr. Dandar used to describe the 14 meeting. 15 THE COURT: Listen to this, Mr. Lirot, maybe 16 you and I are not reading the same letter. It says, 17 "I received your letter of April 10, 2002 and have 18 the same comments. We did speak on March 29, 2002 19 and I did tell you Scientology had made certain 20 demands. I did not mention threats toward 21 Mr. Minton. One of them, that being one of their 22 demands on March 29th, 2002, was their request that 23 Mr. Minton bring about the dismissal of the Lisa 24 McPherson wrongful death case. I did not offer to 25 go into details about the discussions between
613 1 Mr. Minton and Scientology on the 29th," it doesn't 2 say that, but I'm suggesting to you, "and in fact 3 told you that through me Mr. Minton had entered into 4 a confidentiality agreement that would prevent 5 either Mr. Minton or me from going into details 6 about the discussion." 7 So I think in fairness that while it's 8 responding to this April 10th letter of 9 Mr. Dandar's, he is referring back to a phone call 10 that they had on March 29th which would have been 11 before April 6th. 12 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q And that letter talks about the dismissal of the 16 case. And your testimony was they just wanted to set the 17 record straight? 18 A Yeah. But I also testified that Mr. Rinder, I 19 believe, said that he felt if that happened, that if we set 20 the record straight, it would probably bring about the 21 dismissal of the wrongful death case. 22 Q That is not what the letter says, though? 23 A Well, the letter says what it says, Mr. Lirot. My 24 testimony is my testimony. That is what my memory is. 25 Q Okay.
614 1 A You know, Mr. Jonas obviously came away from the 2 meeting with a different impression. But that is allowable. 3 Q Now, after April 6 -- now, that was the day that 4 Mr. Minton had provided -- or given -- 5 A Began. 6 Q -- given a deposition? 7 A No. April 6 was a Saturday when we went over to 8 Mr. Pope's office and began the process of recanting. 9 THE COURT: Who was there on that day? 10 THE WITNESS: I believe it was just Mr. Rinder 11 and Ms. Yingling and Mr. Minton and myself. 12 THE COURT: No lawyers? 13 THE WITNESS: As players. Ms. Yingling is an 14 attorney, but we didn't have an attorney with us 15 that day. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Jonas was not with you? 17 THE WITNESS: Mmm, no. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen -- 19 THE WITNESS: I don't believe he was down here 20 yet. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen? 22 THE WITNESS: No, Mr. Rosen, I haven't sat down 23 with Mr. Rosen since March 29th. 24 THE COURT: Okay. So your recollection is 25 there were four of you present on that day?
615 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. And, you know, there 2 were -- there were other people in the office 3 building that would bring us water and -- you know, 4 but the principal players were I believe just the 5 four of us. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q I'm sorry, it was you, Mr. Minton, Ms. Yingling 8 and who else? Mr. Pope? 9 A Mr. Rinder. 10 Q You, Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling? 11 A Yeah. I don't believe there was anybody else 12 there that day. 13 Q This was at Mr. Pope's office in Clearwater? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What time did this meeting start on April 6? 16 A Oh, I believe in the afternoon sometime. 17 Q Okay. And how did it begin? Was there any 18 discussion about what the terms of settlement would be? 19 A No. No. No. We didn't -- the word "settlement" 20 didn't come up. We weren't doing settlement. I told you 21 they had made it very clear in New York that there was no 22 settlement happening, it wasn't settlement. It was us 23 recanting. 24 Q For the purpose of settling? 25 A Well, as a first step toward being able to get to
616 1 that point. 2 THE COURT: What she has said, I believe, 3 Counselor, is what she has testified to, until such 4 time as she sets the record straight, it's her 5 testimony, they'll not talk settlement. The first 6 step, affidavit; second step, what we are going 7 through here. Third step, what is going on in Judge 8 Baird's. That is what she perceives is required for 9 her and for Mr. Minton to set the record straight. 10 Then they can say they have already done that, now 11 they want to sit down and talk about settling the 12 case. 13 Is that it? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: And that is her testimony. And I 16 tried to tell you, I don't know how many times I 17 have to tell you, it isn't going to change. You 18 might suggest the changes, you might even lead her 19 through some. You have got to -- something to show 20 her, she's wrong, you can do that. But otherwise, 21 you are going to say it and say it and say it. 22 MR. LIROT: I'm trying to get through the 23 meeting, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25
617 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q So you get to this meeting. And basically what do 3 you start doing? What do you or Mr. Minton start doing? 4 A Mmm, I don't really remember how that meeting 5 started. Mmm, I don't -- I really don't remember what 6 happened before Mr. Minton and I went outside and he started 7 throwing up in the bushes. That sort of started it for me. 8 I don't remember what happened before that really. They 9 were -- 10 Q I'm sorry, go ahead and finish. 11 A We were talking -- I really don't remember. I can 12 tell you what happened after we took that break. 13 Q All right. Was there discussion going on before 14 Mr. Minton got sick? Had he started to talk about it? Or 15 was that before the meeting even began? 16 A No, that is the thing. He started talking 17 about -- you know, he started really telling them things 18 after that first break. 19 I really don't remember what happened right at the 20 beginning of that meeting. 21 Q Well, this is a very important meeting, wouldn't 22 you agree? 23 A It was probably the most important meeting I have 24 had so far in my life. 25 Q And clearly by your affidavit recanting all your
618 1 testimony, you remember all kinds of things. You can't 2 remember this meeting? 3 THE COURT: Counselor, asked and answered. 4 Move on to your next question. Make your argument 5 to me. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q What happened after Mr. Minton got sick? 8 A Well, then he came in and I believe the first 9 thing he told them about was the money. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And they were just like flabbergasted. 12 Q Did Mr. Minton bring any documents with him to 13 this meeting? 14 A No. I don't believe so. 15 Q All right. Did Ms. Yingling or Mr. Rinder have 16 any documents with them that they showed you or Mr. Minton 17 at the meeting? 18 A I don't think so in that first meeting. I don't 19 remember there being any documents in that meeting. 20 Q And this is the April 6 meeting? 21 A Yes, on Saturday afternoon. 22 Q At Mr. Pope's office? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Was there a court reporter there? 25 A No.
619 1 Q Was Ms. Yingling making any notes? 2 A In that first meeting? 3 THE COURT: The meeting on the 6th? 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah. But I'm -- perhaps 5 she was. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Was Mr. Rinder making any notes that you recall? 8 A I don't think he was. I don't think he was. 9 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, might we take a 10 break? 11 THE COURT: Yes, it's a good time for our 12 afternoon break. We'll be in recess until about 13 five after 3. 14 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 15 (Proceedings continue in Volume 5.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25