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Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 620 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 5 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 DATE: May 7, 2002. 17 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 18 St. Petersburg, Florida. 19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 20 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 21 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 22 23 24 25
621 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25
622 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
623 1 THE COURT: All right. Continue. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to clear up some 3 of the earlier inquiry. If I may approach? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm going to hand you a declaration 7 that you apparently signed on August 22nd, 2001. Do you 8 recognize that declaration? 9 A Let me just look it over for a minute. 10 Yes. 11 Q All right. Is that your signature on Page 3? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. And you signed this apparently under 14 penalty of perjury? 15 A Yes. 16 Q I have some questions -- let me draw your 17 attention to the first page, on Paragraph Number 4. 18 You say: "On August 2nd, 2001, I was contacted by 19 Mr. Minton and informed he had seen on the Internet the 20 posting attached to his response as Exhibit 3. Mr. Minton 21 was seriously upset by the invasion of his and his 22 children's privacy by Scientology or its agents and by 23 obviously illegal means by Scientology to obtain such 24 private information." 25 What was identified there as a response to Exhibit
624 1 3? What is that referring to? 2 A It says the Internet posting. 3 Q What was on the Internet? What was posted? 4 A As I said before, it was a list of the names of 5 four or five -- I don't remember how many -- doctors that he 6 had -- that either he or his children had seen in the past. 7 Q I guess that was my question. Why would it have 8 involved his children? 9 A What? 10 Q Why would this have involved his children's 11 privacy? 12 A Well, as I recall -- do you not have the posting? 13 Q I do not. No. 14 A Mmm, well, as I recall, as I said, one of the 15 doctors was someone that his children had also seen. 16 Q Your statement said it was obviously illegal. Why 17 did you conclude it was illegal, that this information was 18 obtained through illegal means? 19 A Mmm, well, Mr. Minton felt that it was at that 20 time -- that they must have obtained the information by some 21 sort of -- well, basically he just couldn't -- he didn't 22 know how they could possibly have that information. And so 23 he thought it must have been a phone tap or some other 24 mysterious way that they would have had that they could have 25 gotten this.
625 1 Q In this deposition you talk about Mr. Minton 2 being, again, distraught. Then on -- 3 THE COURT: Are you speaking of this affidavit 4 or declaration? 5 MR. LIROT: This declaration, Judge. 6 THE COURT: I believe you called it deposition. 7 MR. LIROT: Did I say deposition? I'm sorry. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Declaration. I'm sorry, misstatement. I 10 apologize. 11 In Paragraph 7 you say you encouraged Mr. Minton 12 to travel to Florida for his deposition. 13 The last sentence there says: "I was also aware 14 Mr. Minton had been in communication with a therapist during 15 the afternoon and evening. During the evening of August 2nd 16 I spoke to the therapist myself." 17 Was that Mr. Palermo -- or Ms. Palermo? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What did you ask her to do at that point in time? 20 A Well, as I recall the conversation I had with her, 21 I just asked her -- I mean, I told her that I knew she 22 couldn't tell me about what they had actually discussed, 23 but -- Mmm, the reason I'm hesitating, because I believe Mr. 24 Merrett also spoke to her. And I believe it was in the 25 conversation with Mr. Merrett that he -- I believe it was
626 1 Mr. Merrett who asked her to come forward. I don't recall 2 that I did that. 3 But, I mean, basically Mr. Merrett and I were very 4 concerned that Mr. Minton wasn't willing to get on the plane 5 to come to this deposition. And we weren't really sure what 6 to do about it. 7 And I think I was asking her if she thought there 8 was any way that he could come, even if it was the next 9 morning. I have spoken to her about this whole incident -- 10 THE COURT: I think you have answered his 11 question. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q What did you understand Ms. Palermo's credentials 15 to be? 16 THE COURT: Counsel, we have been over this 17 this morning. I don't want to repeat it. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q It was just the one therapist you talked to that 20 day? 21 A As I recall, just Diane. 22 Q Did you create this declaration and allege 23 anything that was false just to try to keep Mr. Minton from 24 having to come down for that deposition? 25 A No. No. I wanted him to come down to the
627 1 deposition very badly. And, in any case, this was a -- I 2 don't remember why this was even written, because it was 3 certainly long past the date when he had already not showed 4 up for the deposition. 5 Q Let me show you Paragraph 10. It says -- this is 6 on Page 3. "In the days following the foregoing events, I 7 repeatedly contacted the therapist, asking that the 8 therapist testify by affidavit, deposition or in person 9 concerning Mr. Minton's state of mind on August 2nd and the 10 therapist's recommendations concerning the deposition. 11 "It became clear to me that the therapist was well 12 aware of the vicious attack Scientology had mounted on the 13 mental health profession generally, and the horrifying 14 assaults launched on anyone, regardless of profession, who 15 actually opposes Scientology. The therapist was unwilling 16 to take the risks involved in being publicly named as a 17 mental health professional assisting an opponent of 18 Scientology." 19 Is that all true? 20 A Yes, it was all true. It was also true that she 21 herself was a former Scientologist, so she was completely 22 freaked out at the idea, and very angry with me and 23 Mr. Merrett, mostly Mr. Merrett, but also me, for putting 24 her in this kind of a position. 25 THE COURT: You have answered the question.
628 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry. 2 MR. FUGATE: What was the exhibit number on 3 that? 4 THE COURT: I have no idea. 5 MR. LIROT: 14. 6 THE COURT: Has it been introduced? 7 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. I would like to 8 introduce it. 9 THE COURT: Does the clerk have it? 10 THE CLERK: I have it. 11 THE COURT: Okay, Number 14. Are you sure it 12 was 14? I thought it was introduced this morning 13 with another number. 14 MR. LIROT: We didn't have it this morning. 15 THE COURT: But didn't you attach a number to 16 it? 17 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. 18 THE COURT: You didn't have it? Okay. Number 19 14 then. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Ms. Brooks, let me bring you back up to the 22 meeting on April 6. 23 On April 5 you are in front of Judge Schaeffer, 24 and your attorneys are here. You were represented by whom 25 on that date?
629 1 A I wasn't. I was just attending. I wasn't part of 2 the hearing. 3 Q Mr. Minton was here? 4 A Mr. Minton was -- was represented by Mr. Howie, I 5 believe, or -- yes. 6 Q And was there any mention to your counsel about 7 the meeting on the next day? 8 A My counsel wasn't there. I don't believe my 9 counsel was there. 10 Q Well, you had the meeting on the 6th. Did you 11 talk to your counsel, not so much being at the hearing, but 12 did you make a phone call, saying, "Hey, I'm going to meet 13 with --" 14 A I think I told you before, I don't believe we did. 15 Q Mr. Minton didn't contact anybody, either? 16 A Not that I recall. You could ask him, but I don't 17 recall that we did. 18 Q Why would you attend a meeting like this, 19 obviously an important meeting -- why would you attend a 20 meeting like this without counsel? 21 A Mmm, at that point, we kind of felt that we were 22 walking into the jaws of the dragon and the attorneys 23 wouldn't really be of much help. That was our state of mind 24 at the time. 25 Q So throughout all this you have counsel and you
630 1 are concerned with all these different legal issues, and you 2 go to probably the most important meeting of all without any 3 attorneys? 4 A Mmm, well, Ms. Yingling was there. 5 Q She's not your attorney. 6 A No, but you said without any attorneys. And that 7 wasn't the case. 8 Q Okay. I'm sorry, I must obviously have phrased 9 the question wrong. 10 So you go in with Scientology attorneys but you 11 don't have any of your own counsel at this very, very 12 important meeting? 13 A I believe I already told you who was at the 14 meeting. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I didn't name any of our attorneys, so ... 17 Q The reason you didn't bring any of your attorneys 18 is you didn't want anybody other than you people in that 19 room to know what really happened in that meeting. Isn't 20 that correct? 21 A That is incorrect. 22 Q Well, why didn't you bring any attorneys? 23 THE COURT: Asked and answered. Move on to the 24 next question. 25
631 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q How did the questioning start out on April 6? 3 A Mmm, as I said, I -- 4 THE COURT: That is asked and answered, too. 5 She said she doesn't know what went on in the 6 morning. If you're talking about the morning, she 7 can't tell you. She doesn't know. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q The break didn't refresh your memory, I take it? 10 You don't remember anything before Mr. Minton got sick? 11 A Yes. 12 THE COURT: That is going to be another poor -- 13 poor record here. 14 I think you don't remember anything, yes, that 15 is true, you don't remember it? 16 THE WITNESS: I mean, that is correct, I do not 17 remember. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q All right. But your memory gets better after 21 Mr. Minton goes back inside. Is that correct? 22 A Well -- 23 Q What happened after you went back inside? 24 A Mr. Lirot, are you trying to say I'm trying to 25 cover up the threat part that happened at the beginning --
632 1 THE COURT: That is exactly what he's trying to 2 say. But he'll have to make that argument to me. 3 And you really need to start in the afternoon and 4 what is it that you remember? 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q That will work for me. 7 A As I can just say for the record, there weren't 8 any threats. We went in there and started telling them 9 things that we had lied about. 10 THE COURT: Now, either you remember or you 11 don't. So if you remember, you need to tell us. If 12 you don't, then you need to say you don't remember 13 and he's going to fill in the blanks. That is how 14 lawyers work. They are allowed to draw reasonable 15 inferences from the evidence. A reasonable evidence 16 from that evidence that you can't remember, it is 17 something you don't want to remember and he'll fill 18 in the blanks. That is the way the law works. That 19 is okay. If you don't remember, I don't want you to 20 say you do if you don't. 21 Now you need to go to the afternoon and start 22 saying what happened there. 23 THE WITNESS: But, I mean, let me just be clear 24 here. I think we're talking about maybe a half 25 hour, forty-five minutes. We're not talking about
633 1 several hours' worth of blankness here. I mean, you 2 know, basically we had never sat down with these 3 people like this before. We were nervous -- 4 THE COURT: There really is no question before 5 you, ma'am. The question is do you remember what 6 was said. And you indicated you didn't. And 7 Mr. Lirot just seems to want to go back to this. 8 And I said asked and answered because you were asked 9 that at least three times and you said you didn't 10 remember. 11 Counsel, would you move on to your next 12 question? 13 MR. LIROT: Yes, I will. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q What happened in the afternoon after Mr. Minton 16 had been sick? 17 A I think I already told you that, too. Do you want 18 me to say it again? 19 Q I don't think you have given me any specific 20 answer to that. 21 A Yes. 22 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if he really 23 went to the afternoon. 24 A Okay. I think the first thing that Mr. Minton 25 told him about was the money --
634 1 THE COURT: The check. You're right. You did 2 tell us that. 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Okay. And was this the one check? Or two checks? 6 THE COURT: We have established it was two 7 checks by that time. Remember, we did that before 8 the break. 9 MR. LIROT: Wel, we established it was two 10 checks. I don't know she testified it was two 11 checks. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q All right, fair enough. 15 What else besides the two checks? 16 A Mmm, he talked about the agreement for the bulk of 17 the proceeds to go to the LMT. 18 Q What else? 19 A Mmm, I think he also talked about -- 20 THE COURT: Let me see if I can -- I need to be 21 a little -- elucidated a little bit. 22 There has been some testimony in the 23 depositions previously that the bulk of the money 24 was to go to LMT -- I'm sorry -- well, it was to go 25 to some organization, later LMT.
635 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Then there had been a change in 3 that testimony. I had not gotten to that in my 4 readings. There is only so many hours in the day. 5 But I gather when I get to that one deposition, 6 there was no agreement. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 THE COURT: So now he's sitting down to discuss 9 this. And what is it he actually told him? I mean, 10 this wasn't something they had not heard, because 11 they'd heard him testify like that. Then they heard 12 this kind of changing testimony. 13 So now he's at a meeting. What does he say? 14 "I lied at this one deposition because ...?" Is 15 that what he said? 16 THE WITNESS: Basically, yes, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. So when he's asking you what 18 was said, just you told them about the agreement 19 doesn't really help us much because they knew about 20 the agreement because there has been plenty of 21 testimony about the agreement. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, what I'm saying, he was 23 telling them about things that he had lied about. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And he was explaining to them why
636 1 he had lied. And he was telling them what 2 Mr. Dandar's involvement in that had been, you know, 3 when he was telling them that he needed to lie about 4 it, when he -- you know, when he was saying that -- 5 for the good of the case, this is what needs to 6 happen, you know, he was telling them. And, you 7 know, he was basically remembering this, as well as 8 he could, what had happened. 9 He especially remembered when Mr. Dandar had 10 cross-examined him to elicit the perjury. I 11 remember that, how these guys were like dumbfounded. 12 Sorry. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q When was that? When was that deposition? 15 A I don't know. This was in the meeting that we had 16 on April 6. 17 Q So there is a deposition where Mr. Minton said 18 there is no agreement -- 19 A At least one, more than one. 20 Q -- that he's going to come and bury his soul? 21 Hasn't he been on the Internet, on the radio, that 22 the Lisa McPherson trust is supposed to reap the bulk -- 23 A I think you are a little unclear about the 24 sequence here. Early on, when the agreement was first made 25 with Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich and the rest of the
637 1 family, Mr. Minton went on the radio, and he had posted 2 about it, and he was very excited about it. And, you know, 3 people at the LMT knew about it. It was happy, exciting 4 news and this kind of thing. 5 Q When was that meeting? 6 A What? 7 Q When was this first meeting when the family 8 members and Mr. Minton come to this purported agreement? 9 When was that? 10 A I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't know. 11 Q Can I take it to understand that he's on the 12 Internet talking about it? If we looked on the Internet, 13 that would give an indication when he's gleeful about this 14 meeting? 15 A I didn't say he was gleeful. 16 Q He's happy there was an agreement? 17 A He's very happy about it. 18 Q Then he goes on the radio and starts to talk about 19 it? 20 A I believe -- I believe there was a radio program 21 in which he talked about the agreement. Yeah. I don't 22 remember when it was. 23 Q And then at some point he's testifying under oath 24 and he says "There is no agreement." Is that true? 25 A Yes.
638 1 Q All right. So what is the sequence, as you 2 understand it? 3 A Well, I was trying to tell you. 4 Q All right. I'm sorry to have interrupted you. 5 I'll be quiet. 6 A The agreement was made. It was confirmed, 7 reaffirmed, several times. Then Scientology started to 8 basically characterize that agreement as, you know, 9 something negative about -- that was hurting the wrongful 10 death case. 11 And so Mr. Dandar told Mr. Minton that he needed 12 to back off from talking about this agreement, and then -- 13 and me. 14 And, Mmm, then, after that, we started -- I 15 mean -- 16 THE COURT: You want to talk about something 17 that will look odd on the record is that he told 18 Mr. Minton he had to stop talking about the 19 agreement, and you? Or he told you and Mr. Minton 20 to stop talking about the agreement? 21 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 22 THE COURT: Okay. You have to understand all 23 this stuff goes someplace and they don't have a clue 24 what I think you meant. They just know what it 25 says.
639 1 A What I meant to say was he told Mr. Minton and me 2 that we needed to back off about talking about this 3 agreement. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Well, where were you talking about the agreement? 6 A You know, it wasn't something that was a secret. 7 I mean, you know, it was something that we would talk about. 8 Q Had you ever testified that there was -- 9 A Any deposition, he wanted to make sure that I 10 wasn't going to say there was an agreement. 11 Q And -- 12 A And so, in the deposition, I said there wasn't. 13 First, I wanted to sort of get Mr. Moxon to go off, you 14 know, in another direction with an answer that was sort of 15 kind of misdirecting. But he came back and asked me the 16 same question again. Then I said no. 17 Q Okay. How would they know about any of the money, 18 though, before this meeting? 19 A They didn't. 20 Q They had no idea -- 21 A They didn't act like they had. 22 Q They didn't present you -- 23 A They were surprised. 24 Q They didn't give you a copy of any check at this 25 meeting on --
640 1 A No. Mr. Lirot, you asked me that before, and I'm 2 telling you again, they did not give us a copy of the check. 3 Q All right. After these two issues were discussed, 4 what else was discussed? 5 A Mmm, I think that may have been all that we were 6 able to get to that day. We were exhausted. And like I 7 said, we felt like we had crossed a very, very serious 8 threshold, so we kind of -- you know, we just left that 9 afternoon and really sort of tried to get used to the fact 10 we had just done what we had just done. 11 Q How long was the meeting on the 6th? 12 A Mmm, I think perhaps two or three hours, perhaps. 13 Q So you talk about the checks. You talk about the 14 agreement. Mr. Minton gets sick. And that takes three 15 hours? 16 THE COURT: Do you have any idea how long, 17 counsel, you have been talking about the same thing? 18 Days. This is the fourth day of hearing and we are 19 not even close to being done with this one witness. 20 And that is really all we have been talking about of 21 any importance to this matter. 22 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. But I'm 23 trying to get this witness to tell me exactly what 24 happened at these meetings. And for a 3-hour 25 meeting, a 30-second explanation leaves me a little
641 1 bit less than satisfied with the response. 2 Now, if she can't remember, and she states on 3 the record under oath she can't remember, I guess I 4 have to take it at that. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Do you remember anything else about the meeting on 7 April 6? 8 THE COURT: I guess what I'm trying to suggest, 9 counselor, is you would like for just the fact that 10 the one-liner or the two lines she's coming out with 11 to say, oh, that took thirty seconds. 12 What I'm trying to suggest, the way we've been 13 going over this, don't you imagine they asked some 14 of the same questions like you are asking? And 15 don't you imagine it was a give and take? "Wait a 16 second. What did you say? What happened next? 17 Wait a second. Let me see about this?" 18 Don't you suspect a lot of that was going on 19 about these things, just like it is in this 20 courtroom? 21 THE WITNESS: More so, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: But, I mean, I'm not saying it is 23 true or not. I'm saying this is what she's saying, 24 is that this was explored in some depth. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
642 1 THE COURT: They just didn't have you say two 2 lines and say, "Oh, thank you very much. See ya." 3 A No, this was very difficult for us to do and it 4 took a long time. And they were very patient about it, I 5 think. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. What time did you get out of 8 Mr. Pope's office on the 6th, if you recall? 9 A Mmm, it was still light. I think perhaps four or 10 five in the afternoon. 11 Q And did you tell your attorneys anything that had 12 happened? Did you call them and say, "We just met with 13 Scientology and Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rinder and we've told 14 them this information"? Did you tell them later that day? 15 A Mmm, I think, as I recall, Mr. Jonas was coming 16 down the next day for the -- for the hearing with Judge 17 Baird. And I'm not sure if Mr. Howie was involved in this 18 or not. 19 But the attorneys became involved in it in 20 preparation for the -- for Judge Baird's hearing, because -- 21 and I'm not sure exactly who called who or how this all 22 happened, but I know that I believe it was on Sunday, the 23 next day, an agreement was reached between the attorneys 24 that led to Mr. Minton's recantation testimony in Baird's 25 courtroom on April 9, if Mr. Minton agreed to recant his
643 1 testimony on -- under oath, that Scientology would withdraw 2 their motion for contempt -- or motion for contempt or 3 motion for order to show cause or -- you know, in any case, 4 they would withdraw their -- their action that they were 5 taking against Mr. Minton to try to get him found in 6 criminal contempt. 7 Q On the 6th, did they ask how much money Mr. Minton 8 had put into the case? 9 A I believe that -- I believe so. 10 Q All right. And did they -- I mean, what was 11 Mr. Minton responding to those questions? 12 A Well, he was telling them that he had given 13 $750,000 more than he had testified to, or that Mr. Dandar 14 had reported to the Court. 15 Q On the 7th you had another meeting, on that 16 Sunday? 17 A Mmm, I'm not sure if there was a meeting or it was 18 just phone calls. But now the attorneys were involved in it 19 and it was planning for the contempt hearing, as I recall. 20 Because Mr. Jonas got down -- no, no, no, Mr. Jonas got 21 down -- oh, maybe Mr. Jonas didn't get down until Monday 22 morning and it was just Mr. Howie at that point. Then 23 Mr. Jonas was by phone. I can't remember exactly how it 24 came about. 25 But the end result of it was that Mr. Minton went
644 1 into court on Tuesday before Judge Baird and -- 2 Q That is April 9th? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So April 6 you have the meeting. April 7 you may 5 have had a couple phone calls? 6 A Mmm, I don't recall if Mr. Jonas was down there 7 yet or not. He might have not gotten down there until 8 Monday morning. So -- 9 THE COURT: Is your answer you don't know? 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q All right. 13 A I know it happened, but I'm not sure if it was 14 Sunday or -- you know, Monday after the deposition. But, in 15 any case, that planning was done and that agreement was 16 reached between the attorneys. 17 Q On the 7th? 18 A Or 8th. 19 Q Or 8th? The 8th was Mr. Minton's deposition, 20 right? 21 A Yeah. It must have been on the 7th. 22 Q All right. So this was all done by telephone? Or 23 was there actually a face-to-face meeting on Sunday, 24 April 7th? 25 A Mmm, I don't recall a face-to-face meeting on
645 1 Sunday. Certainly not with Mr. Jonas, because he was in 2 Boston. I believe we spoke by phone with Mr. Howie. 3 Q All right. On Monday, Mr. Minton had his 4 deposition taken, he gave a deposition? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Where did that occur? 7 A That occurred in the conference room in Wally 8 Pope's office. 9 Q Who was present for that deposition? 10 A Mmm, Mr. Jonas, Mr. -- I'm sorry, Mr. -- I think 11 Mr. Howie and Mr. Jonas were both there. Mr. Rosen. I was 12 there. Mr. McGowan, I think, was there. I think he was. 13 Why would he have been there? 14 Q Were you scheduled for deposition? 15 A No. But maybe -- I don't know. Maybe I was there 16 as the representative of the LMT -- 17 THE COURT: Does anybody care? Because I have 18 the deposition. I can tell you. 19 THE WITNESS: That would be a lot easier. 20 THE COURT: Do you really want to know? Or are 21 you testing her memory? Because, depending what you 22 are trying to do, I'll help you or not. 23 MR. LIROT: I'm not testing her memory. 24 THE COURT: Then Mr. Rosen was present for 25 plaintiff. Thomas Dandar, of Dandar & Dandar, was
646 1 there for the defendant. Tom McGowan was there for 2 LMT. For the witness, Bruce Howie was there. Also 3 present: Stacy Brooks, Lara Cartwright and Allan 4 Cartwright. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Before the deposition began, was there a 7 discussion about Mr. Minton bearing his soul, or relating 8 the information that was deemed important on April 6? 9 A I'll correct the record so it doesn't -- no one 10 gets the impression that Mr. Minton was bearing his soul. 11 THE COURT: Don't do that, counselor. Come on. 12 You know -- 13 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 14 THE COURT: You know, we're moving too slow, so 15 don't editorialize. Just get to it. 16 MR. LIROT: All right. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q After Mr. Minton related the information on 19 April 8 -- on April 8, Mr. Minton has given a deposition. 20 Before the deposition began, was there any discussion about 21 the meetings of the prior couple of days? 22 A I don't recall anything substantive. I think he 23 just came in and sat down and started. 24 Q Okay. 25 A Well, Mr. Jonas probably met with Mr. Minton. But
647 1 I don't believe I was present for that. 2 Q Do you know if Mr. Minton met with any members of 3 Scientology without you being present? 4 A Not that I know of. 5 Q Now, obviously the deposition of the 8th, of 6 Mr. Minton, speaks for itself. After the deposition, what 7 happened? 8 A Mmm, well, the next day was the hearing. 9 Q Were there any more meetings after the deposition? 10 Did you meet with Scientology after that deposition? 11 MR. WEINBERG: You mean on that day? 12 A I don't -- 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q On April 8. Yes. 15 A I don't think so, because Mr. Jonas was there. I 16 think we had dinner with him. Mmm, I think we had dinner 17 with Mr. Jonas that night, and that was it. 18 Q Did Mr. Minton get together with Mr. Rosen and 19 rehearse his testimony for the hearing before Judge Baird on 20 the 9th? 21 A I don't think so. Not that I know of. 22 Q Do you know if Mr. Minton met with Mr. Rosen after 23 the deposition but before the hearing on April 9? 24 A Not that I know of. 25 Q Was there any meeting the morning of April 9th
648 1 between Mr. Rosen and Mr. Minton? 2 A Not that I know of. 3 Q Now, you were in attendance at the contempt 4 hearing with Judge Baird, correct -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- on April 9, 2002? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And I guess there was a motion that Mr. Minton be 9 found not to be in contempt. What do you recall about that? 10 THE COURT: Why can't the record speak for 11 itself, unless you want to question her about 12 whether she felt that was in accord with what had 13 been agreed on or something like that? 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, is it safe to say Judge Baird didn't let 16 Mr. Minton off the hook that day? Is that a safe analysis? 17 A No. I wouldn't actually -- that is not what I 18 would say. 19 Q All right. How would you phrase it? 20 A Mmm, well, Mr. Rosen stood up and told Judge Baird 21 that he wanted to call Mr. Minton to the stand. He called 22 Mr. Minton to the stand. 23 THE COURT: This is going to take way too long. 24 At the end of the day, did Judge Baird say, 25 "Fine, thanks so much, everything is over"? Or did
649 1 Judge Baird say, "I haven't decided yet what I'm 2 going to do about this and I'm going to take it 3 under advisement but I'm not going to necessarily 4 dismiss the contempt or not sentence Mr. Minton, I'm 5 going to think about it"? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, at the end of the day, he 7 said, "I'm going to take it under advisement." 8 But then it was explained to me and Mr. Minton, 9 by our counsel, that if Judge Baird was going to 10 find him guilty of criminal contempt, he would have 11 sentenced him there, because he would not be sending 12 out a sentence by mail. 13 So our understanding was that Judge Baird was 14 not going to find Mr. Minton guilty of criminal 15 contempt, that he might, at a later date, decide to 16 sanction him for civil contempt, or, you know, 17 whatever else you do to a person that -- 18 THE COURT: What lawyer told you that? 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Howie. And -- at least 20 Mr. Howie. Maybe Mr. Jonas, too. 21 THE COURT: What is going to happen if Judge 22 Baird said, "I'm ready now to decide, Mr. Minton, I 23 want you in court at ten o'clock in the morning"? 24 THE WITNESS: Well, then my understanding would 25 be wrong.
650 1 THE COURT: When a judge takes something under 2 advisement, you take something under advisement in a 3 criminal case or a civil case, you bring all of the 4 parties back and make a decision. So I would 5 suggest if you think that Judge Baird has decided 6 not to sentence Mr. Minton in whatever kind of 7 contempt procedure was going on, that is bad advice. 8 At least my reading of it is Judge Baird has it 9 under advisement until he makes a decision. 10 THE WITNESS: That is something I was wrong 11 about. 12 THE COURT: And, frankly, your counsel may be 13 right. As I read that, the judge reading what 14 another judge said, Judge Baird was suggesting he 15 had not yet decided what he wanted to do about this. 16 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, before the hearing on the 9th on -- 19 THE COURT: I mean, Judge Baird had just been 20 presented with a witness who said "I committed 21 perjury." 22 And then somebody says, well, whatever it was 23 that Mr. Rosen said. 24 And Judge Baird said, "Well, I'm going to think 25 about this."
651 1 And I think that is exactly what he wanted to 2 do is put all this in perspective and decide what he 3 wanted to do. 4 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: It's quite unusual, let me say, 6 quite unusual, for a judge to have a witness come in 7 and recant and say, "I have committed perjury." I 8 have been on the bench over 20 years, and I don't 9 know if it ever happened before. It probably has, 10 but it's most unusual. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: So it's not something you are just 13 ready to deal with like, oh, I can deal with that. 14 I either want to do this or I want to do that. I 15 don't know. The judge says I have to think about 16 this a little bit. 17 THE WITNESS: All right. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Where were you and Mr. Minton staying on the 7th 20 and 8th for the hearing? 21 A Mmm, I believe we were at the Adams Mark Hotel on 22 Clearwater Beach at that time. 23 Q Was there a large stack of documents delivered to 24 you of Mr. Minton's depositions that were circled with areas 25 that they wanted Mr. Minton to recant?
652 1 A I don't know that anything was delivered. 2 Q Okay. 3 A We were given a lot of documents, at our request. 4 Q When? 5 A I'm not sure that they were delivered. Perhaps 6 there were some that were delivered. But we certainly asked 7 for a lot -- I mean, we asked for copies of all our 8 depositions. We asked for, you know -- you know, I mean, 9 there has been a lot of testimony in this case. We asked 10 them to -- well, and Mr. McGowan was present at one meeting 11 where we were given a number of different deposition 12 transcripts to go through, with parts of them highlighted -- 13 Q Who -- 14 A -- of testimony -- 15 Q Go ahead and finish. 16 A -- of testimony that, based on what our 17 conversations with them had been, might be something that we 18 had to recant, in other words. 19 Q So you asked them to provide you with all of the 20 documents to show where you had lied in the past so you 21 could make -- 22 A No. 23 Q -- sure -- how would they know? 24 A Well -- 25 Q How did you -- what was the request for the
653 1 documents? Let me phrase the question that way. 2 A Well, as I testified earlier, we found ourselves 3 in an odd position of having to ask Scientology for copies 4 of our depositions or whatever other documents we needed 5 because we couldn't go to Mr. Dandar. Mr. Merrett doesn't 6 keep good records. And the only place we could really go 7 for a full record was to Scientology, is how we felt, unless 8 we went to court ourselves or, you know, whatever we had at 9 the LMT we could use, but it wasn't a full -- it wasn't a 10 full record. And -- 11 Q Why couldn't you go to Mr. Dandar? 12 A Well, we couldn't go to Mr. Dandar because of what 13 we were doing. Mr. Dandar had already told us he never 14 wanted to speak to us again because we would give him a 15 heart attack. And we just didn't feel that there was good 16 relations with him any longer. So it was our -- 17 THE COURT: Counsel, don't you think you and I 18 can both understand, based on her testimony that she 19 told Mr. Dandar she was going to go in and tell that 20 she lied, Mr. Minton will say he lied, and they were 21 both going to say Mr. Dandar lied, do you think they 22 would then feel comfortable picking up the phone, 23 saying, "Hey, by the way, would you help us to find 24 all of the places that we can fix this?" 25 Do you think Mr. Dandar would be real excited
654 1 about helping them? 2 MR. LIROT: No, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: I don't, either. So, I mean, this 4 is kind of obvious, some of this stuff. 5 MR. LIROT: All right. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Well, why couldn't you just prepare an affidavit 8 that says, "This is the truth, and anything we have said 9 that doesn't coincide with this, we withdraw"? 10 A Well, that is what we ended up doing. But it 11 required a lot of going back and reviewing what we'd said. 12 Because as I said, there has been a lot of testimony in this 13 case. It's been very stressful. It's been, Mmm, very -- 14 you know, it's been over a long period of time. And we 15 needed to refresh our memories. 16 Q Refresh your memories as to what? 17 A As to what we testified about. 18 Q You weren't sure what you'd lied about? 19 A That is correct. I mean, I went through many of 20 these documents with my attorney, to make sure, when I did a 21 recantation, it was complete. There were a few things we 22 included that were very minor things. There were some 23 things that were very, very major things. But my attorney 24 wanted to make sure that I was not leaving anything out. 25 And, you know, I didn't remember each little thing that I'd
655 1 testified about. And I needed to remember. 2 Q Well, I think your testimony throughout has been 3 it's just this agreement and these checks? 4 THE COURT: Counselor, I'm really not going to 5 listen to this. The deal is if I was going to go in 6 and recant, and you would go in and recant, you 7 would want to see what you said when you said it so 8 if you were asked, you could point to it. I mean, 9 this is what they wanted to do. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, when is the first time you saw this -- you 13 got highlighted documents, is that correct? 14 A Mmm, there was a meeting at Mr. Pope's office with 15 Mr. McGowan, I believe Mr. Fugate was present -- well, 16 Mr. McGowan and I and Mr. Fugate had a conversation, and 17 Mr. McGowan was then provided with quite a number of 18 documents that were highlighted. 19 Q Okay. Who highlighted them? 20 A I'm not sure. I didn't. 21 Q You didn't. Mr. McGowan didn't. So someone in 22 Scientology or one of their counsel, is that a safe 23 assumption? 24 A I assume so. And then I had another -- I had 25 another set made, and I then highlighted -- I did similar
656 1 highlighting on another set of documents so that my attorney 2 could have a set, as well. 3 Q So how would they know what depositions to go 4 through to find all of the little subtleties that you are 5 not sure whether you lied about or not? 6 A Well, the only thing that was highlighted were 7 things that we'd already discussed that would -- so that -- 8 you know, so I could go straight to the parts of my 9 testimony that covered the things that we already talked 10 about. 11 Then I had to go through the rest of the testimony 12 and make sure that there wasn't anything else. 13 Q Do you still have the highlighted excerpts of your 14 depositions and other testimony? 15 A I don't. My attorney and I discussed that, you 16 know, in the last couple of days. And I -- he wasn't able 17 to find them, either. And I think perhaps -- perhaps there 18 is a copy of them at his office, but I think I gave mine -- 19 I think I returned mine to the Scientologists. 20 Q When is the first time you saw a stack of 21 highlighted documents? 22 A Mmm -- sheesh. It might have been three weeks ago 23 that we had that meeting. I'm not sure. 24 THE COURT: Can you relate that to the 25 different meetings that you had? In other words,
657 1 was it before -- was the court testimony on the 8th? 2 MR. DANDAR: 9th. 3 MR. LIROT: 9th, Judge. 4 THE COURT: Was it before -- I presume it was 5 before the court testimony. 6 THE WITNESS: You mean on April 9? 7 THE COURT: Right. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I believe it was after that, 9 because all that happened prior to the court 10 testimony on April 9th was that Mr. Minton prepared 11 to testify about the two checks that he lied about 12 and -- 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: -- and also -- 15 THE COURT: So this was subsequent to when you 16 prepared the affidavit, sometime between April 9 -- 17 THE WITNESS: And now. Well -- 18 THE COURT: Well, your affidavit, I presume 19 what it was used for, your affidavit was dated 20 April 29. 21 THE WITNESS: Right, so within that 20-day 22 period. I don't remember exactly when. I mean, 23 we've been doing this, you know, nonstop, pretty 24 much, for a month. This is all we do. I haven't 25 been home. We're living out of a suitcase. I
658 1 mean -- 2 THE COURT: We don't want to hear you complain, 3 ma'am, to tell you the truth. If anybody gets to 4 complain, it's those of us who aren't responsible 5 for this. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I'm not 7 complaining. I'm just -- 8 THE COURT: I understand. 9 THE WITNESS: -- you know. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q When did the discussion about David Miscavige come 12 up? Was that on the 7th? Was that during the meeting of 13 the 7th? 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that. I 15 don't know there is a foundation for that. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Well, all right. Let me ask you this -- 19 THE COURT: You can ask, did -- was there a 20 discussion and, if so, then you can ask what was the 21 date. 22 MR. LIROT: All right, Judge. I'm jumping 23 ahead. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q There is a lot of discussion about David Miscavige
659 1 and those issues in your affidavit, isn't that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And when did that come up? 4 A Mmm, when did it first come up? Early on. I 5 think early on in this process. You know, I told them about 6 my role in -- in creating this overall strategy about going 7 after Miscavige because -- oh, yeah, yeah, because it was 8 about the meeting. We were talking about this meeting where 9 Mr. Dandar said it never happened. And then -- and it came 10 up with regard to that, because I was explaining why it was 11 that I was a proponent of adding him as a party. And then I 12 was given some background as to how that came about. 13 Q You remember Mr. Minton testifying about such a 14 meeting in front of Judge Baird, right? 15 A Mmm, I know that he testified about two things. 16 Perhaps -- perhaps the meeting was the other thing, yeah. 17 Q And then you are aware he changed that testimony 18 later, he changed his description of the place of the 19 meeting or the date of the meeting, but it changed. Are you 20 aware of that? 21 A I -- I don't remember that he did that. But it's 22 clear in my mind what happened. 23 THE COURT: What are you talking about? 24 Because I'm not sure what you are talking about. 25 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think during Judge Baird's
660 1 hearing, Mr. Minton testified about the so-called 2 secret meeting. And his testimony was later 3 changed. He testified, I guess, about a building 4 with characteristics, and -- I guess the easiest way 5 to put it, he testified he went up some elevator or 6 stairs to see Mr. Dandar at a certain date. And 7 Mr. Dandar -- 8 THE COURT: I'm not asking for details. 9 MR. LIROT: Right. 10 THE COURT: But you are saying it changed in 11 front of Judge Baird, he said one thing on direct 12 and one thing on cross? Are you saying it changed 13 from Judge Baird to his affidavit? What are you 14 saying? 15 MR. LIROT: That is exactly correct, we're 16 saying that -- 17 THE COURT: Which? 18 MR. LIROT: -- Mr. Minton testified one way in 19 front of Judge Baird, and later it changed. 20 THE COURT: In the affidavit? So now -- 21 MR. LIROT: Correct. 22 THE COURT: -- you are asking this witness 23 whether she's aware of that? 24 MR. LIROT: Yes. 25 THE COURT: And your answer to that is?
661 1 THE WITNESS: My answer to that is -- 2 THE COURT: It's very simple. Are you aware 3 the testimony changed? And if you aren't, you 4 aren't. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Okay. Who changed that testimony? 8 A Well, Mr. Minton changed it. 9 Q Based on whose urgings? 10 A Mmm, actually, based on a conversation that he and 11 I had regarding where the meeting happened, because I 12 remembered very clearly that it happened at the new office 13 on Kennedy. And he -- I think he had thought that it had 14 happened at the old office. He had forgotten, or whatever. 15 Anyway, we discussed that. And he said, "Oh, 16 yeah." 17 Q So that, just spontaneously from you, said, "Oh, 18 you got it wrong, we want to make sure we get it right." Is 19 that what happened between you and Mr. Minton? Nobody else 20 had any input into that? 21 A I didn't mean to say it was spontaneous. We were 22 discussing the meeting. 23 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to suggest 24 is was this you somehow saw his testimony and you 25 realized it was wrong? Or was this suggested to you
662 1 or to him from someone from the Church of 2 Scientology? 3 THE WITNESS: No. I was there for his 4 testimony. And I said I think it happened -- in 5 fact, I know it happened at the new office. And I 6 don't think that they moved offices until probably 7 the fall. 8 THE COURT: It wasn't contemplated that you 9 were going to be a witness in front of Judge Baird? 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 THE COURT: So you were not a party to the rule 12 then? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I was a -- I was a party in 14 the breach. 15 THE COURT: No -- 16 THE WITNESS: So -- 17 THE COURT: When the rule is invoked, all 18 witnesses are asked to step outside. You said you 19 heard Mr. Minton's testimony. So I presume you were 20 not excluded under the rule. 21 THE WITNESS: Right, I wasn't, because I was a 22 party. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, I still want to nail down the date
663 1 that you got these documents. So it was after the 9th, 2 before the submission of, I guess, the affidavit you signed 3 on the 29th. 4 Do you remember where you were when you got them? 5 A Yes, in Mr. Pope's office. 6 Q Do you remember what day that would have been? 7 A I'm sorry, but I don't. As I said, Mr. McGowan 8 was there. Mr. Fugate was there. I don't remember what 9 date it was. 10 Q All right. Did you go through any depositions -- 11 I mean, as I understand it, you wanted to get a hold of the 12 documents so you could review them to find out where your 13 testimony would have been inaccurate. Is that how these 14 documents were produced? 15 Did you go through a whole large stack of 16 depositions and say "Well, let's get this page and let's 17 highlight this page"? Is that how these documents came to 18 be? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. Who put them together then? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q So somebody went through your depositions and 23 found out, for themselves, what they thought they wanted to 24 change as far as your testimony was concerned? 25 A No. No.
664 1 THE COURT: That would be a nice argument for 2 you to make in front of me. I don't think you're 3 going to get very far making that in front of her. 4 MR. LIROT: I understand. 5 THE COURT: You are really extending this way 6 beyond what it needs to be extended. 7 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: I don't know whether you think I'm 9 so dumb I'm not picking up on some of these things, 10 but I assure you I am. 11 MR. LIROT: I don't think you are dumb by any 12 stretch. 13 THE COURT: Then don't ask this witness three 14 or four times. I write it down the first time you 15 ask. 16 MR. LIROT: All right. 17 THE COURT: Look here (indicating). "She was 18 presented with a set of depositions and they were 19 highlighted." "And they were highlighted," 20 presumably by someone from Scientology with their 21 lawyer.* 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Mr. Fugate handed me, I guess, a letter dated 24 April 15th, from his office, to Mr. McGowan. And it says: 25 "In advance of our scheduled discussions this afternoon
665 1 among Bob Minton, Stacy Brooks and representatives of the 2 Church of Scientology, this is to advise you that all 3 discussions to date are required to be kept strictly 4 confidential by the parties and by their counsel, as set 5 forth in the attached confidentiality agreement. 6 "We would appreciate your acknowledging your 7 agreement that the terms set forth in the attached letter 8 from Steven Jonas to Samuel Rosen will apply to all 9 discussions in which you participate. Please signify your 10 agreement by signing the letter." 11 Mr. McGowan signed this. 12 Does that refresh your memory? Were the documents 13 delivered with this letter? Do you know? 14 A Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Fugate. 16 MR. FUGATE: I gave you that for the date. 17 MR. LIROT: April 15, 2002. I think I -- 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. 19 THE WITNESS: I'll rely on the date of this 20 document. 21 THE COURT: Do we have this document? 22 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, where I was reading 23 from is Mr. McGowan's document production that he 24 gave to the Court, whatever year that was. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
666 1 MR. WEINBERG: I think that was a little 2 sarcastic. 3 THE COURT: I thought it was. And I was 4 debating whether to say anything, and then I agreed 5 with it. 6 MR. FUGATE: Let me apologize. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q So I'm trying to get all these dates that you had 10 these meetings nailed down. 11 So we have the 15th the documents were presented. 12 Was there a meeting on the 15th? 13 A Mmm, according to that letter, it happened later 14 that day. As I said, I'll have to rely on the date in the 15 letter because -- you know, I can tell you that it happened 16 sometime in the last 20 -- or, you know, sometime between 17 April 9 and April 29. And if that letter stated April 15, 18 then that is probably when it happened. 19 Q Okay. Now, on the 15th you got these documents. 20 I think attached -- or introduced was, I think -- Exhibit 73 21 was the letter Mr. Dandar sent to you and your husband, 22 Vaughn, at some point back in, I guess, 1997. 23 A What? 24 THE COURT: Was there a 73? 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
667 1 THE COURT: I'm not sure I have a 73. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think Mr. Fugate 3 introduced Number 73. 4 THE COURT: Okay. I think that is right. 5 MR. FUGATE: I couldn't tell you, Judge. But 6 I'll accept the representation. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Are you familiar with the document I'm speaking 9 about right now? 10 A Mmm -- 11 THE COURT: Could you show it to her? 12 MR. LIROT: Could I approach and let her 13 refresh her memory, Judge? 14 THE COURT: You can. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Here you go. 17 THE COURT: When did we break last? 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Seems like a long time ago. 19 MR. McGOWAN: Only an hour. 20 THE COURT: Only an hour? Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: I was hoping you might say we 22 were going to take another one. 23 THE COURT: Well, you know, I am, because I 24 said I would quit at five today. So there is no 25 point in my going for a half hour, breaking for
668 1 fifteen minutes, coming back for fifteen minutes and 2 quitting for the day. So let's take a quick break, 3 ten-minute break, we'll come back and go until five 4 and then we'll quit for the day. All right? 5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 6 THE COURT: Okay, you may be seated. And let's 7 continue. 8 MR. LIROT: All right. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Ms. Brooks, I was looking at my notes here. I 11 asked you if there had been a meeting after the meeting on 12 the 7th or the 8th, after the deposition on the 8th, to get 13 Mr. Minton prepared for his testimony on the 9th in front of 14 Judge Baird. 15 Was there a meeting before the deposition to get 16 Mr. Minton prepared for the testimony that Mr. Rosen 17 elicited from him -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- on the 9th? 20 A Yes. 21 Q There was a meeting before? 22 A Yes. Mr. Jonas, Mr. Howie and Mr. Minton met, and 23 I assume they met to prepare him for the deposition. 24 Q No. I mean, did Mr. Rosen meet with them at that 25 point in time --
669 1 A Oh, not that I -- 2 Q -- to prepare Mr. Minton for the testimony in 3 front of Judge Baird? 4 A No. Not that I know of. 5 Q Was there anything provided to Mr. Minton by 6 Mr. Rosen, or anybody associated with them, to prepare him 7 for the hearing on the 9th? 8 A Mmm, I don't know, but I think you would have to 9 ask Mr. Minton. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Not that I -- that I know. 12 Q Can I call it a stack of documents, the deposition 13 excerpts and things like that you were asked to recant? Was 14 it a stack? 15 A Okay, but you are mischaracterizing what it was. 16 I wasn't given a stack of documents that I was asked to 17 recant. That is not what happened, Mr. Lirot. 18 Q Okay, tell me what it was. 19 A Let me tell you what happened. I requested from 20 the Scientologists deposition transcripts that covered the 21 points that I had already brought up. And I was given those 22 with those portions highlighted. It was not -- it was at my 23 request. It wasn't something I was told, "Okay, you have to 24 recant this, you have to recant that." That is not what 25 happened.
670 1 And some of the things that were highlighted -- 2 Mr. McGowan and I went over each one of the highlighted 3 portions. And some of them I have lied about. And some of 4 them I have not. So some of the highlighted things were 5 correctly things that were pointed out to me that I needed 6 to address. And some of the highlighted things were things 7 that were not correctly pointed out to me that I needed to 8 address. And at all times I was the one who decided what I 9 needed to address and what I didn't, because I was the one 10 who knew what was the truth and what was not. 11 Q Okay. 12 A So ... 13 Q Did Mr. Minton receive a similar package of 14 documents or deposition testimony or other things that he 15 was asked to correct? 16 A Again, he -- these are not documents he was given 17 and asked to correct, Mr. Lirot. Please stop 18 mischaracterizing it that way. Nobody asked us to do 19 anything. 20 We asked them to provide us with documents, and we 21 decided what needed to be dealt with and what didn't need to 22 be dealt with. We were not asked to recant anything by 23 anyone. 24 Q Okay. Did Mr. Minton receive a stack of similar 25 documents?
671 1 A Yes. 2 Q Was that the same day? Was that the 15th? I 3 guess April 15th was the day you received your documents. 4 A I believe it was at the same time. 5 Q Okay. Had he received any documents, prior to 6 that date, from the Church of Scientology relative to his 7 testimony? 8 A I don't know that he had received them. But he 9 had -- he had looked at documents prior to that time, and so 10 had I. 11 Q Okay. Who provided you with those documents? 12 A Mmm, either Mr. Rinder -- well, Mr. Rinder, pretty 13 much. 14 Q When did that occur? 15 A Mmm, well, in a -- you know, prior to that, I 16 don't remember the exact dates, but we met with them a 17 couple of other times to get documents. 18 Q And is that -- 19 A Or to go over documents, I should say. 20 Q -- before the 15th? 21 A I believe so. As I said, this has been an ongoing 22 process for the last month. 23 Q All right. How was it Mr. Rinder provided you 24 with documents? Were they hand-delivered? Did he bring 25 them over --
672 1 A No. No. No. In other words, what happened on 2 April 15th is we were actually given a set of documents that 3 we'd asked for. 4 Prior to that, we were going through things, 5 deciding what we needed to be looking at and things like 6 that. So prior to that, we had spent quite some time just 7 going through documents. 8 Q All right. Where did you get the documents you 9 were going through? 10 A From Mr. Rinder. 11 Q So you are given a set of documents by Mr. Rinder, 12 at your request, to go through to set the record straight? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Yes? All right. And you are going through all 15 these documents. Then you get another set of deposition -- 16 series of deposition excerpts. I don't understand why you 17 don't get it all at once. Can you explain to me the 18 sequence and why the sequence wasn't delivered all at the 19 same time? 20 A Well, what I'm -- what I'm trying to say is that 21 when we finally got those -- the excerpts of the depositions 22 that we took away with us to work on the recantations, it 23 was sort of a culmination of a research project, I guess you 24 could say, that we -- that we had been going through in 25 order to ascertain what would be relevant for us to deal
673 1 with. I think that would be the best way to put it. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And then at that point we actually began the 4 process of writing the affidavit and also the recantation. 5 Let me just look at my recantation affidavit for 6 the date on that. And that will -- 7 Q I believe you did two. One, I think, was on 8 April 29th was the longer one. 9 A That was the long one. 10 Q I think that has been marked as Exhibit 72 to the 11 omnibus motion. 12 A Okay. My initial recantation affidavit was signed 13 on April 17th. 14 Q Right. Is that an exhibit? I don't know. 15 A Are you asking me? 16 Q I'm -- 17 A I don't know. 18 MR. DANDAR: What? 19 MR. LIROT: A rhetorical question. I need to 20 look at my exhibit table here. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q So you filed -- at least on April 18 Mr. McGowan 23 submitted a notice of filing in the other case, in the 24 breach case? 25 A Okay. But I think it was submitted in both cases,
674 1 if I'm not mistaken. 2 Q Okay. 3 A So -- 4 THE COURT: Is there a question? 5 MR. LIROT: She seems to be looking at her 6 notes, Judge. I'm trying to see -- 7 A I'm just rereading this recantation. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q You did two, right? You did two recantations, 10 right? 11 A I did a short one, which was just a simple -- 12 Q Just a simple one, right? 13 A It seems to me that there was something -- it 14 seemed to me that there was a hearing or something that this 15 was needing to be finished for, but I don't know. 16 Q So let me just get my time frame here right. On 17 the 15th, you get all of the documents that you have asked 18 for so that you can set the record straight. And then you 19 set about writing your affidavit. Right? 20 A Well, my attorney and I. 21 Q Your attorney and you, Mr. McGowan and you, worked 22 on your first affidavit recanting testimony? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And that is the one that I guess bears the date of 25 April 17, 2002?
675 1 A Yeah. 2 Q All right. Did Ms. Yingling have any input into 3 this first affidavit? 4 A Mmm, no. 5 Q Okay. 6 A No. 7 Q And this first affidavit, I take it, is what you 8 felt was important to set the record straight. Right? 9 A Well, it was more a matter of I had never done a 10 recantation before. And Mr. McGowan kind of helped me put 11 this together. 12 I also was present when Mr. Howie was going over 13 some points about how to do this. 14 There was a hearing that this needed to be done 15 for. I can't remember exactly what it was. But I believe 16 there was. There was -- 17 THE COURT: I think you are well past the 18 question. I think the question was whether or not 19 this was an affidavit you and your lawyer put 20 together because it was, you felt, what was 21 important. And I think you said yes. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q This is Affidavit Number 1? 24 A Yes. 25 Q The four-pager that you apparently signed on
676 1 April 17th. And you had gotten all of the documents on 2 April 15th. Mr. Fugate assisted us in verifying that date. 3 Correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And you get this one done. You have two days to 6 go through everything. You prepare -- 7 A You already -- we had already been -- 8 Q You sit down and -- 9 A We'd already been going over things prior to that. 10 It wasn't just within a two-day period. As I said earlier, 11 this was a process that was going on. And there was some -- 12 Q Well, explain -- 13 A We need to get this filed for some reason, I'm not 14 remembering why. And so there wasn't really time to do a 15 lengthy affidavit, which both Mr. Minton and I wanted to do, 16 which is why there were two. But this needed to be filed. 17 But -- 18 Q But this is a lengthier process. So you had stuff 19 before the 15th to go through. And then this is -- 20 A I told you that. 21 Q -- what you came up with. But this one wasn't 22 good enough for you? 23 A What? 24 Q April 17th, this didn't set the record straight? 25 A No. Because I wanted to actually tell the whole
677 1 story of what had happened. 2 Q Why didn't you do it in this affidavit? 3 A Because I didn't have time. 4 Q Why didn't you have time? 5 A Well, I mean, it took me probably a total of -- I 6 don't know how many days. But, I mean, I worked on this 7 lengthier one for quite some time. 8 Q With Ms. Yingling? 9 A No. 10 Q I think you already testified Ms. Yingling helped 11 you on the second affidavit. 12 A Okay. But I didn't work on it with her for quite 13 some time. I -- I mean, this is very lengthy and it took 14 quite a bit of time. And, you know, it mainly took time to 15 gather my thoughts and put together a correct narrative of 16 the events that happened that I felt were important to tell. 17 Q Isn't it true that the second affidavit was done 18 because they weren't happy with the first one because it 19 wasn't damaging enough to the wrongful death case? 20 A No. There was no input from them at all and no 21 feedback from them on this. 22 Q On the first one? 23 A Right. 24 Q Why do you need -- if you are setting the record 25 straight, why do you need feedback?
678 1 A I don't. I'm just -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A I'm just responding to what you said. You said 4 that -- you said something that was a mischaracterization of 5 what occurred. 6 And I'm just trying to make sure that the record 7 is clear that that was incorrect, what you said. 8 Q Well, you get no feedback on the first one. But 9 the second one you get feedback. Yes? 10 A I asked for it. 11 Q Pardon me? 12 A I asked for it. 13 Q You wanted feedback? 14 A I did. 15 Q Why? 16 A I wanted to make sure that I covered all of the 17 points that we'd discussed. 18 Q Well, let's take a look at the first affidavit, 19 the one you signed on April 17th. 20 A Yeah. And if you see, you know, I put in little 21 details like -- Mmm, you know, one place where I had said in 22 deposition that the LMT never paid Rick Spector. And, in 23 fact, I remembered that we paid him one check which I think 24 was for a videotape of a depo or something like that. And 25 my attorney thought, in an abundance of caution, we should
679 1 be sure to include all these little facts that happened in 2 the deposition themselves. 3 My other affidavit was for another purpose, for 4 me. 5 Q For what purpose? 6 A And my attorney and I discussed it. Mmm, he felt 7 that it was too long, and I was talking too much, basically, 8 which I think the Judge also thinks. 9 But I told him that I really wanted to tell the 10 whole story of what had happened from my perspective, 11 because, you know, this has been -- well, it's just been a 12 very, Mmm, unbelievable experience, not only for me, but 13 also for the courts. And I thought that the courts deserved 14 to hear from me about what had actually happened in an 15 affidavit form. 16 Q Well -- 17 A And -- 18 Q -- the second affidavit wasn't written by you, was 19 it? 20 A It was, too. 21 Q With a lot of help? 22 A No. 23 Q Just a little help? 24 A No. 25 Q Well, how do you explain the difference in the
680 1 language used? 2 A Mmm, well, mainly the difference is that my 3 attorney pretty much wrote the first one. But anybody who 4 is familiar with my writing will recognize my writing. As I 5 said, it goes on and on sometimes. 6 Q Okay. So what you are saying -- 7 A But this one was written by me. This one was 8 pretty much written by Mr. McGowan, as we sat together. 9 Q All right. And your testimony -- 10 A And he -- excuse me -- and he preferred that I let 11 him take the long one and edit it down quite extensively. 12 And I insisted it be in my own words. 13 Q Where was that second affidavit typed? 14 A On Mr. Minton's laptop. 15 Q Okay. And who did you give it to? 16 A Well, then I turned it over to Lara Cartwright at 17 Wally Pope's office so that it could have this correct -- 18 well, not there, but so it could have the correct stuff on 19 the front put in. 20 And then I went over it with Mr. Rinder and 21 Ms. Yingling. And, you know, they both thought it told a 22 good story. They suggested a couple of changes for 23 clarifying. 24 Q Why would they be -- why would they be making any 25 suggestions to an affidavit written by you?
681 1 A Because I -- 2 Q Go ahead and answer that one. 3 A Because I asked them to. 4 Q Why? 5 A Because it was a very, very important document. I 6 felt that -- Mmm, you know, by this time I was feeling quite 7 a lot of remorse about some of the things that I have said 8 in the past about them that I believe were very insulting 9 and -- and deliberately untrue. 10 Also, during the course of -- 11 Q So -- 12 A Let me finish. Also, during the course of our 13 discussions, Mr. Rinder and I -- because Mr. Rinder and I 14 have known each other since 19- -- gosh, 1982, I think, and 15 we've had quite a history together, and -- both when we were 16 in Scientology together and since I have been out. 17 And we had had some talks in which he had filled 18 in some information for me that I had not had before, not 19 about this case or anything, but just about some things that 20 happened between us. 21 And I had come to change my opinion about him and 22 to feel that he was someone that -- that I'd been very 23 unfair to. 24 Q So working with him on this affidavit -- 25 A And --
682 1 Q -- has given him a chance to be treated more 2 fairly? 3 A No. You know, it's not really a correct 4 characterization to say working with him on the affidavit. 5 But I really did want to make sure that -- 6 Q You wanted to make sure the bill of goods you were 7 asked to sell was up to par, isn't that correct? 8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to the 9 argumentative -- 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 A No. That -- 12 THE COURT: You don't have to answer that. The 13 objection was sustained, and that is the end of 14 that. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. What I was starting to 16 say -- 17 THE COURT: No. There is nothing here, because 18 he asked the question, and there was an objection, 19 it was sustained. 20 So go on to your next question. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Let me go back to Exhibit 73 that I handed up to 23 you, I guess the 1997 letter that Mr. Dandar had sent to 24 you. 25 THE COURT: You know, I know I must have it and
683 1 I'm sure it is up here but somehow I have forgotten 2 it. It has been a long time ago. Could I see it? 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, I gave her the only copy I 4 have. 5 THE COURT: Madam clerk, do you have it? 6 MR. LIROT: I would like to get -- all of the 7 copies I have given her I would like to get back, 8 because a lot of those I need to give to the clerk. 9 THE COURT: I doubt it have it. It is actually 10 Number 73 attached -- 11 MR. LIROT: No, Judge, this one wasn't 12 attached. It was submitted on Day One before you by 13 Mr. Fugate. 14 THE COURT: Is it a letter to Stacy and Vaughn 15 Young re: Lisa McPherson and Scientology? 16 MR. LIROT: That is correct. 17 THE COURT: I have got it now. Go ahead. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q When did counsel for Scientology get that letter? 20 A I believe -- I'm not sure -- but that they may 21 have already had it. I don't recall that I gave it to them, 22 but I don't think I did. 23 Q I guess I'll ask that question. Did they show it 24 to you? 25 A Oh, this was part of -- no. No. No. No. No. I
684 1 was -- when I went up to Atlanta, I brought a copy of this 2 letter, and also a copy of -- Mmm -- 3 THE COURT: What happened in Atlanta? 4 THE WITNESS: Well, I went back to Atlanta for 5 a day to get these documents -- this thing, I think, 6 and also a copy of some checks. 7 THE COURT: Was there a meeting there? This 8 was just a trip you made? 9 THE WITNESS: No. I lived there. 10 THE COURT: Oh, that is right. That was a long 11 time ago. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q When? 14 A Oh, I think I can -- this was probably sometime 15 early on in this process. I don't recall. 16 Q Before -- before March 29? 17 A No. 18 Q Before April 9, the Judge Baird hearing? 19 A No. If it was presented before that, it wasn't my 20 copy that was used. 21 Q You went and retrieved a copy. Right? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Who asked you to retrieve it? 24 A Mmm, nobody asked me to retrieve it. But I wanted 25 to retrieve any documents that I thought might -- you
685 1 know -- well, any documents that had anything to do with 2 what had happened in the wrongful death case. 3 Q Well, I mean, you were a consultant in that case. 4 Correct? 5 A Right. 6 Q And you signed a confidentiality agreement. 7 Didn't you? 8 A Yeah. This one. 9 Q It didn't matter anymore? 10 A It seemed -- I felt that it would be important to 11 reveal what was in this letter. I thought it filled in an 12 important gap in the story. You know, it was the first 13 thing in writing that I had from Mr. Dandar in which -- in 14 which he talked about Mr. Miscavige, managing agent -- 15 Q He asked about it, correct? I mean, the letter 16 will speak for itself. Wasn't it a big question mark? 17 A Right. But it was that part of it that made it 18 interesting -- that made it of importance, in my mind. 19 And -- and, you know, I was -- I was the one who was the 20 architect of this whole strategy, and it wasn't -- it didn't 21 begin with this case. It began in 1993. 22 And I wanted to -- and I wanted to quote from this 23 letter because it would confirm what I wanted to say, which 24 was that Mr. Dandar had already been familiar with my 25 declarations in earlier cases.
686 1 Q Well, you were already an expert witness in other 2 cases. Right? 3 A Right. 4 Q So -- 5 A Well, it is not that there was anything strange 6 that he would be. It's just that when we -- what I was 7 trying to -- what I was trying to confirm was that it was 8 because of the specific strategy that I had created in the 9 earlier cases that he contacted us. 10 Q There is a big question mark there. Right? 11 A Why? 12 Q I guess the issue here is did Mr. Miscavige have 13 some position of authority that would be relevant to this 14 wrongful death action. Isn't that basically the question? 15 THE COURT: I thought we rehashed that about as 16 much as we could. 17 MR. LIROT: I think we have, Judge. 18 THE COURT: Well, then I suggest we move on to 19 something else. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, who did you give these materials to, this 22 letter? 23 A Mmm, perhaps Mr. Rinder. I don't remember. It 24 was a part of materials that were on the table. 25 Q Well, didn't you think that this was work product?
687 1 I mean, you are hired as a consultant. This is a letter 2 between you and the attorney that is hiring you as a 3 consultant. And -- 4 A Well. 5 Q -- you just hand it over to the other side, 6 without any compunction at all? 7 A Well, by this time, I didn't really feel like they 8 were the other side of me. 9 And I also felt that since it was a letter to me, 10 I -- you know, it was my letter. 11 Q Well, you have been in case after case after case 12 as an expert. I mean, clearly you are familiar with the 13 confidentiality between a consultant or an expert witness 14 and the attorney that has hired. Right? 15 A Mmm, again, I felt that, under the circumstances, 16 you know -- 17 THE COURT: Ma'am, you'll have to answer that 18 yes or no before you give us your explanation. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. What was the question? 20 THE COURT: Read it back. 21 MR. LIROT: You have been -- 22 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Madam Court 23 Reporter, read that question back. 24 THE REPORTER: "Question: Well, you have been 25 in case after case after case as an expert. I mean,
688 1 clearly you are familiar with the confidentiality 2 between a consultant or an expert witness and the 3 attorney that has hired. Right?" 4 A Yes. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Okay. So you are not new to the legal obligations 7 that you have as an expert. Right? 8 A Mmm, in the sense of the confidentiality of the 9 agreement, I'm aware of that. 10 Q And it just didn't matter any more when it came to 11 Mr. Dandar? 12 A Oh, as I said, I felt, under the circumstances, 13 that it would be appropriate to quote from the letter. 14 Q Did you ask Mr. McGowan about that? 15 A Mmm, I showed Mr. McGowan -- 16 Q What other documents -- I'm sorry, finish your 17 answer. 18 A I showed him what I had written. 19 Q I didn't hear you. I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: She said she showed him what she 21 had written. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q You showed him what you had written. That wasn't 24 my question. 25 A Well --
689 1 Q Did you show him the letter? Did you say, "Hey, 2 I'm going to turn over all this confidential stuff that 3 Mr. Dandar gave me"? 4 A You mean all this being this letter? 5 Q I don't know. What else did you turn over? 6 A Mmm, in the end, nothing else. 7 Q Well, you said something about checks and a whole 8 table full of documents. 9 A But I didn't end up turning them over. 10 THE COURT: Well, did you give them to them so 11 they could look them over and read through them? 12 THE WITNESS: You know, I actually didn't end 13 up, in the end, turning anything else over. 14 THE COURT: But did you let them see it? 15 THE WITNESS: No. It didn't end up being 16 relevant. 17 THE COURT: Well, I don't know who is putting 18 relevant to what. But in addition to this letter, 19 did you show to Mr. Rinder any of the matters given 20 to you by Mr. Dandar? 21 THE WITNESS: Nothing else, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Nothing? Just this letter? 23 THE WITNESS: Actually, the other things I had 24 weren't from Mr. Dandar. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
690 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q What else was on the table you looked at besides 3 that that wasn't relevant? Well, let me back up a little 4 bit. 5 Somebody asked you for some documents. Is that 6 correct? 7 A No. 8 Q So you, on your own, decided, "In addition to 9 recanting my testimony, I'm going to go through my stuff and 10 I'm going to find all of the documents I think are important 11 and I'm going to voluntarily hand them over to the people 12 that I have been in an adverse position to for years and 13 years and years," is that -- is that your state of mind? 14 THE COURT: Is this a breach of contract case? 15 I mean, if Mr. Dandar thinks he can sue this woman 16 for breach of contract, he needs to do just that. 17 And he may well have a suit. But, I mean, she 18 testified about this. 19 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q I guess I just want to ask. You reviewed these 22 documents in Atlanta sometime after the 9th but sometime 23 before April 15th? 24 A Mmm, I can't really remember when I -- when I went 25 up there. There was just a day when I had a day that I
691 1 could go. 2 Q Well, did you go up there for this specific 3 purpose? 4 A No. No. 5 Q Why did you go? You were already down here, and 6 you went back to Atlanta for a day, and then came back to 7 the Tampa Bay area? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And what was your purpose in going back to 10 Atlanta? 11 A Mmm, well, I had a cat who had been in a kennel 12 for a really long time. And I just wanted to let her out 13 for a day. I know that sounds silly, but that was -- 14 Q No. I think at this point your affection for cats 15 is an issue of judicial notice. 16 A But, you know, I'm trying to remember if this 17 letter was already a part of their records or not. It may 18 have been. I did get a copy of this. 19 THE COURT: Well, gosh, if it hadn't have been, 20 I'm sure you would want to know. You would have 21 said, "How did you get a copy of this letter?" 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mean, I don't really -- 23 I'm just not recalling, you know. But I do think -- 24 I mean, I am thinking that they already had a copy 25 of it. And I'm not sure.
692 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q When would you have seen their copy of this 3 letter? 4 A Well, it would have been sometime during this 5 process, perhaps -- I think it was prior to them seeing my 6 affidavit, though. 7 THE COURT: How would they have gotten it you 8 didn't turn it over? 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 10 THE COURT: Ma'am, if you had any meeting with 11 Mr. Rinder and he handed you a copy of this letter, 12 you would have gone, "How in the world did you get 13 that?" I mean, you would remember that, wouldn't 14 you? 15 THE WITNESS: I think so. 16 THE COURT: So you must have turned it over 17 yourself. 18 THE WITNESS: I think so. But my problem -- 19 the reason that I'm having difficulty with this is 20 that I'm not remembering when I went up to Atlanta. 21 THE COURT: Well, regardless of when, I guess 22 the real question is why would you turn this letter 23 over to Mr. Rinder? 24 I mean, what is it here that would have 25 possessed you to go to Atlanta, make a special trip
693 1 to Atlanta to get this, or see your cat and get this 2 letter, and turn it over? Did he ask for it? Did 3 you think it was important he have it? I mean, this 4 is just a letter. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I thought it was -- I 6 thought it would be of interest to them. I thought 7 it was -- I thought it -- 8 THE COURT: Let me suggest something to you. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 THE COURT: Was there a discussion with Mr. 11 Rinder, or anyone connected with the Church of 12 Scientology, that said, "Anything you have got in 13 your possession that would tend to show anything 14 about David Miscavige would be very important for us 15 to have? Please search your files." 16 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, I 17 don't think these words were used, but I certainly 18 had that emotion. I certainly wanted to do that. 19 THE COURT: There was some discussion -- is 20 this fair, some discussion you had during one of 21 these meetings made it apparent to you that if you 22 had something that showed anything regarding how 23 Mr. Miscavige got added as a party, this would be of 24 great importance? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
694 1 THE COURT: So you went to get this letter to 2 assist because that was what the purpose of this 3 was, coming to a global -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 THE COURT: -- conclusion? They wanted it, you 6 had it, you got it for them? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Who was at the meeting when you turned over that 10 letter? 11 A Mmm, I think Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. 12 Q Where did this meeting take place? 13 A Well, all of them took place at Wally Pope's. 14 Q Was Wally Pope there? Anybody else? 15 A No. 16 THE COURT: Counsel, Mr. Dandar, I could hear 17 you clear up here. The man has to be able to ask 18 some questions, or you have to take over the 19 questioning yourself. 20 MR. DANDAR: Sorry. 21 THE COURT: I mean, that is disconcerting to 22 me, and to you, I imagine. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: But I'm willing to let her have 25 some discomfort here because, frankly, I'm having a
695 1 lot of discomfort, and some of it is brought on by 2 her. But I'm not willing to have the discomfort. 3 THE WITNESS: But, your Honor, I do think -- 4 THE COURT: And I hope you haven't been too 5 uncomfortable. What I mean, I want him there 6 instead of here because that is aggravating to me. 7 You understand why I say that? 8 THE WITNESS: I do. I do. 9 You know, I'm not trying to be unforthcoming 10 about this letter. But I just -- but I just -- I 11 think they already had this letter. And I don't 12 know how they did. 13 THE COURT: Well, did you accuse them of 14 breaking into your house to get it? 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 THE COURT: Well, that is the only way I would 17 know they would have it unless you kept it somewhere 18 other than your house, or they broke into 19 Mr. Dandar's office to get a copy of it. 20 Did you say, "Where did you get this, from my 21 house, or Mr. Dandar's office?" 22 Surely, if I went to a meeting and somebody had 23 a copy of a letter that came to me, the first thing 24 I would say is, "How in the hell did you get this?" 25 And I might use stronger words than that.
696 1 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not remembering whether 2 I first saw this letter and they already had it or 3 not. And I -- and -- and I have to tell you, if 4 they had this letter, I wouldn't be surprised. You 5 know, I'm afraid I wouldn't. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: Because they had -- they have an 8 ability to get a hold of things that -- you know, 9 I -- I didn't particularly go through a process of 10 wondering how they got the letter. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: I didn't. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q I think you responded that part of the reason you 15 went back to Atlanta was to take a look at your files to see 16 what you had that might have been related to Mr. Miscavige. 17 And what else did you look for -- 18 A Right. 19 Q -- when you went to Atlanta? 20 A I also looked for copies of checks that I had paid 21 to Mr. Prince. 22 Q Anything else? 23 A Mmm, not anything else, in particular. 24 Q Well, weren't you asked to -- as part of, I guess, 25 setting the record straight, weren't you asked to bring
697 1 forward all of the Lisa McPherson Trust materials that you 2 had been asked to provide earlier? 3 A You mean the hard drives and the videotape and 4 stuff? 5 Q Sure. 6 A But that wasn't at my house. That wasn't at my 7 house. 8 Q Was there ever anything else at your house that 9 was responsive to any of the requests to produce that had 10 been submitted to you -- 11 A No. 12 Q -- on behalf of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 13 A Well, there are other things at my house that are 14 responsive to the latest thing that you gave to me. But -- 15 Q Such as? 16 A -- but I haven't been home since then. 17 THE COURT: Tax returns. 18 MR. LIROT: I know that. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Anything else? 21 A No. 22 Q Well, you testified that you had stuff spread out 23 over your table, and you were looking for stuff, and this 24 letter sort of was part of that material. 25 What else were you --
698 1 A I believe it was. You know, I'm sorry I'm not 2 remembering exactly. 3 Q Well -- 4 A But I do believe -- I do believe they already had 5 a copy of this. 6 Q I'm very confused. You have to forgive me. 7 Either you found it in your apartment and gave it to them, 8 or at some meeting they gave it to you. And you don't 9 remember which it is? 10 A Well, I think they already had it. 11 Q Had you given it to them before? 12 A No, I hadn't. 13 Q Why are you looking for checks to Jesse Prince? 14 A Because, Mmm, I thought it would be -- I thought 15 it might be of interest to show in case Mr. Prince was going 16 to try to say that I -- Mmm, that he hadn't been paid by us 17 or something like that. Because there was something on the 18 Internet where somebody said poor Jesse has been abandoned 19 by Mr. Minton, you know, and part of the spin that has been 20 going on on the Internet about what is going on here. 21 Q Well -- 22 A And I thought it would be -- might be of interest 23 to see that, you know, I was paying him all of the way up 24 until -- through April 4th. 25 Q So you went up --
699 1 A That is why. 2 Q You went up to look for things responsive to 3 Scientology's request that you find materials regarding 4 Mr. Miscavige? 5 A You know, I didn't actually go up for that reason. 6 Q Well, you went up for your cat, you already 7 testified -- 8 A Well, not just for that. You know, I haven't been 9 home in quite some time. There has been some work being 10 done on my house. I needed to speak to the contractor about 11 that. You know, there were various -- I had bills up there 12 I needed to go pick up so I could pay them. You know, I 13 don't mean to characterize it that I took a trip 14 specifically to get documents, because I didn't. 15 Q But you took a trip and got documents. Why you 16 did it -- 17 A Well, I took a trip and got this (indicating). 18 Q I didn't ask. My question is if you are going to 19 set the record straight, why are you going to get checks 20 written to Jesse Prince? What does that have to do with 21 anything? 22 A That wasn't part of it. But about -- by this 23 point, Jesse had written -- well, hadn't written this 24 affidavit yet, but he made it clear that, you know, he was 25 turning against us, that he was going to testify against us.
700 1 Q So let me -- 2 A That he had lied to us about some things. And as 3 I said, I saw this thing on the Internet where people -- 4 where somebody was characterizing Jesse as having been 5 abandoned by Mr. Minton, which was so far from the truth 6 that I just wanted to make sure that I could -- that it 7 wouldn't just be my word, you know, and that it would be -- 8 that I would have something to show for it. 9 Q Well, who had challenged you on that? You see a 10 message -- somebody makes an accusation on the Internet, and 11 you immediately go to your records and start digging through 12 checks? 13 A No. But in the situation with Jesse, in specific, 14 you know, it was -- it was very important to me, because of 15 the -- you know, because like I said, Jesse used to be one 16 of my very best friends. And if Jesse was going to come in 17 here -- you know, a lot of the things that are posted on the 18 Internet are -- it's been shown in the past have been coming 19 from Mr. Dandar's team, Patricia Greenway and -- 20 THE COURT: We really don't need to go there. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to explain, your 22 Honor, it wasn't just out of the blue I thought this 23 would be of relevance. You know, if they were going 24 to start -- 25 THE COURT: Really, the only thing of relevance
701 1 is if you went and got these checks because you were 2 asked to go get them by the Church or by any agent 3 of the Church. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I went and got the checks 5 because I thought they might be -- I thought they 6 might be important. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q What else did you look at and decide this wasn't 9 important? 10 THE COURT: And this was a decision of yours, 11 without any coaching or anything by the Church, any 12 lawyer or any agent of the Church? 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 THE COURT: This was your decision -- 15 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 16 THE COURT: -- as to the checks of -- to 17 Mr. Prince. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q What else did you look at that you decided you 20 didn't really need to bring back down on the table where you 21 had everything spread out? 22 A I don't know. There was no table at my house. 23 That was the table at Wally Pope's office. 24 Q Okay. So -- 25 A I wasn't able to -- you know, my house is still
702 1 somewhat unpacked. Unpacked. And my files aren't 2 readily -- you know, all my files -- a lot of my files are 3 still in boxes. I didn't have time to go through a lot of 4 things. I happened to have this handy -- not handy. I 5 happened to have it in a file in my drawer. 6 Q The letter that they already had? 7 A Well, I think they already had a copy of it. 8 Q Okay, but it just happened to be handy in your 9 drawer -- 10 THE COURT: Counsel, that is what she said. 11 Move on to something else. 12 MR. LIROT: Yes. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q All right. What about your meetings with Jesse 15 Prince? 16 A Let's -- 17 THE COURT: Well, that is a new topic and a new 18 day. We'll just get to that the next time we meet, 19 because it is five o'clock. 20 MR. LIROT: Very good, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: This would be a good time to stop. 22 I promised somebody -- somebody has to catch a plane 23 at 5:30 in the morning. 24 MR. FUGATE: That is tomorrow, but in the 25 morning.
703 1 MR. WEINBERG: In the morning. 2 THE COURT: Is that you, too, Mr. Dandar? Are 3 you going somewhere? 4 MR. DANDAR: I'm not going anywhere. 5 THE COURT: Well, somebody -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: It's me, Judge. 7 THE COURT: I promised somebody we would stop 8 so they can get home and go to bed so they can catch 9 a very early plane. 10 MR. DANDAR: Judge, my calendar indicates that 11 Dr. Knight, from Scotland, was not scheduled for 12 deposition on Monday. It was Dr. Buchan from Tampa. 13 So that is why we weren't going to come here until 14 ten o'clock on Monday. 15 So somebody needs to tell me what happened to 16 Dr. Buchan or -- 17 MR. FUGATE: What happened to Ms. Buchan is you 18 decided that if we would bring Dr. Knight here from 19 Wales, you would switch her. And we did it. So 20 he's scheduled -- or was scheduled to be here on 21 Monday. But he broke his leg and he can't come. 22 And that is what happened. 23 MR. DANDAR: Is Buchan dropped? Or is that a 24 different date? 25 MR. FUGATE: You moved her. But I don't have
704 1 my calendar where you moved her to. 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could, I would like to 4 retrieve the documents from Ms. Brooks I handed her 5 for review. 6 THE COURT: You may. Any that are not hers. 7 Those that are hers she may keep. So -- 8 MR. LIROT: The documents I presented to her, 9 I'm sure she knows which ones are hers, I want to be 10 able to give those to the clerk. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, just this one. 12 THE COURT: And that one is a copy because I 13 just gave the one the clerk had back to her. 14 THE WITNESS: These are mine. 15 MR. LIROT: The Armstrong case and -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. 17 THE COURT: Whatever you think you gave her, 18 ask her for it and she'll give it back if it's not 19 hers. 20 THE WITNESS: And the declaration? 21 MR. LIROT: Whatever I gave you. I don't know 22 what you have in your packet. 23 THE COURT: Counsel, she probably doesn't 24 remember. Can you all get together and look to see? 25 THE WITNESS: Do you want to come look,
705 1 because -- 2 THE COURT: Mr. Bailiff, I want this courtroom 3 locked tonight. 4 _____________________________________ 5 (WHEREUPON, the following proceedings were put 6 on the record at a bench conference between the 7 Court, Mr. Fugate, Mr. Dandar and Mr. Howie.) 8 THE COURT: Okay, I just want to put on the 9 record that I am going to go have a conversation 10 with Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot, and this has been 11 approved by the defendant Church of Scientology, and 12 has been conveyed to me through counsel. 13 Mr. Fugate, you are here to verify that? 14 MR. FUGATE: I do verify that. And we did 15 consent that could go forward. And we do not 16 object. 17 MR. DANDAR: From all of the defendants? 18 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 19 THE COURT: And we had -- last night I had a 20 conversation with a lawyer from both sides, and 21 we're going to continue, and there may even be 22 conversations that I have with the other side, if 23 this is agreeable. But I just wanted to make sure 24 the Court is protected. 25 MR. FUGATE: You said from all defendants. Let
706 1 me tell the Court, so that is not an issue, I have 2 gotten permission from the other defendants to make 3 representations on their behalf, since they are not 4 here, so we are clear on that. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 MR. HOWIE: May I raise one point? 7 It's my understanding the Court wants 8 Mr. Minton here on Monday, the 13th, at ten o'clock. 9 However, I see we are not finished -- 10 THE COURT: That is too early. If he wants to 11 come, I think the idea is he wants to be here. 12 We're off the record now. 13 (WHEREUPON, the proceedings are adjourned at 14 5:10 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
707 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 8th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25