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Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 708 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 6 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 DATE: May 13, 2002. Morning Session. 17 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 18 St. Petersburg, Florida. 19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 20 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 21 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 22 23 24 25
709 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 19 Organization. 20 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 21 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 Counsel for Robert Minton. 23 24 25
710 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 8 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 9 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
711 1 THE COURT: Good morning. 2 (A discussion was held off the record.) 3 THE COURT: I had the chance to spend some days 4 with this stuff. It is always kind of dangerous 5 when I have a chance to spend days. 6 So I have some things, if I can find them -- 7 first of all, just a matter of what availability. I 8 have got -- I have got this week and next are my 9 trial weeks. 10 Next Monday, I have been summoned -- unless I 11 can get out of it, to -- the Chief Justice Elect 12 appointed me to something, and I'm going to try to 13 get out of it. But if I cannot, that will be an 14 all-day fly to Tallahassee, meet, fly back. So I'll 15 let you know. As I said, we try to touch base with 16 each other, and either he or I are in meetings or 17 hearings. 18 So, other than that, I'm going to assume that I 19 have this week and at least those four days of next. 20 I'm hopeful we can roll along a little faster, 21 although we seem to be going at a slow pace. 22 Obviously, this is important and I'm trying to let 23 everybody have a full opportunity, so I'm not 24 rushing everybody. But if we don't finish, then I 25 would assume the next time that -- obviously, you
712 1 guys have set aside, starting the second week of 2 June, for this trial. We have already set June sort 3 of available. 4 So what I can do, I suppose, is see if I can 5 get Judge Beach in early. I guess you-all will be 6 preparing for trial, though. It doesn't appear like 7 we'll start the trial any time in June, so let's see 8 where we are at the end of these two weeks. It 9 would be nice if we were done. But if we're not, I 10 want -- I have got to finish this. So we'll have to 11 look to the June time frame to see if we can finish 12 it up. 13 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, one thing that 14 might -- you know, I guess it's going to be day by 15 day. But I think if we go this week and next week, 16 if my -- I don't have my calendar in front of me, 17 but our case management conference, I think, is 18 Tuesday after the holiday, after the Memorial Day 19 holiday. So we would have that day, because we 20 could always set the case management for a June date 21 if we are still going on this. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Well, in other words, at 23 some point in time I'm hoping if we can get time in 24 here, we can get this done. But if we don't, as I 25 said, I remember telling you-all about June, that in
713 1 the event I didn't dismiss these charges, it would 2 look like we would have a trial of some sort, we 3 would take those June dates. And, remember, I had 4 some I had to be in Tallahassee, and different 5 sundry things. 6 But what I guess I'm saying to you-all is 7 obviously this must be completed before we can talk 8 about any trial, if there should be a trial. 9 MR. FUGATE: Right. 10 THE COURT: So don't start booking up stuff for 11 other cases that -- just assuming, oh, well, this 12 won't go to trial in June so I'm going to go set up 13 a trial in some other court. We're going to use 14 that June time to finish this. Until we're done is 15 what I'm telling you. 16 MR. FUGATE: Very good. 17 THE COURT: All right? 18 MR. LIROT: Very good. 19 THE COURT: Okay. You think I'm kidding? I 20 have four pages here of just things to discuss with 21 you-all. Some of them are "to dos" for me. 22 At some point in time this week, when I'm 23 ready, I'm going to give you-all some orders on the 24 matters that I think I have under advisement. I'm 25 not prepared to do that today.
714 1 One of the things I do not have, Mr. Dandar, if 2 you could make a note, that your response to the -- 3 I have, and I have found, your -- sort of your 4 closing argument in the motion to exclude vitreous. 5 The Church's motion to exclude. 6 I found your initial closing argument, and I 7 found their response. I'm not saying you didn't 8 give it to me because you did. But I don't know 9 where it is. I need another copy of it, your 10 rebuttal response. 11 MR. LIROT: Right. 12 THE COURT: I need that. 13 One thing I'm going to ask both sides to do for 14 me is to think about something that I -- I, having 15 read through this book and response and all this 16 stuff for the second time, after I do a little bit 17 more -- have a little better understanding about it, 18 one of the things that came to me to perhaps be a 19 thought would be if -- remember, I have to kind of 20 think if this, then that. So I'm not trying to tell 21 you-all I'm making rulings in advance, because I'm 22 not. As I told you all, I'm taking this very 23 seriously. These are serious allegations. 24 There may be an advantage to not severing the 25 counterclaim. There are certainly disadvantages.
715 1 There would certainly be a huge disadvantage to 2 Mr. Dandar if I should suggest that he would be 3 permitted to stay on as counsel in the wrongful 4 death. And if I combined them together, I would 5 assume he would become a material witness in that 6 case. Therefore -- I mean, he would be eliminated 7 as a lawyer. 8 However, to my way of thinking, and as I was 9 going through this, I was trying to figure out how a 10 jury -- and I may have motions for summary judgment 11 and all that. But I'm thinking long-term here. 12 There may be advantages to a jury hearing -- the 13 jury in that case would have to hear enough about 14 the wrongful death, the legitimacies of the wrongful 15 death, to determine the improprieties as being 16 alleged by the Church. 17 In other words, it seems like originally I 18 thought the wrongful death just needed to stand 19 alone. There may be an advantage to not doing that. 20 There may be, obviously, disadvantages. 21 I would like to hear from both sides regarding 22 that, that would be, to let this trial go to a jury 23 as a -- as a claim and counterclaim. 24 Some of the things that, obviously, I would 25 want to know is if, in light of these revelations,
716 1 who would the Church seek to add as a party. Who 2 would the estate seek to add as a party. Always 3 keeping in mind that the Court, as I recall, has the 4 ability to add parties if the Court feels they're 5 necessary. 6 Mr. Minton has been added as a party. I would 7 assume, in light of the -- I'm just talking now -- 8 it would seem to me Ms. Brooks is going to end up 9 being a party. 10 Mr. Dandar may, in fact, end up being a party. 11 He would certainly be a witness. He would have to 12 be a witness because -- he would be a major witness, 13 I would assume, for the estate, in light of the 14 allegations. 15 Mr. Prince may or may not be a party. 16 These are thoughts that I have had on that. In 17 other words, for me to know whether or not that is a 18 good idea or not a good idea, I need to know who 19 you-all would believe would be parties or you would 20 move to add as parties as this thing has progressed 21 to the point that it progressed. Okay? 22 So I don't need briefs on this or anything 23 major. I just need, you know, we would favor this, 24 we would not favor this, here is why, and if this 25 were done, here is who we would ask to add as
717 1 parties. 2 Naturally, there may be motions on that, that 3 we'll have to hear. But just so I can kind of get 4 in my mind that thought from both sides. 5 This was a note to me. And I have looked -- my 6 office, as you-all might imagine, since I keep most 7 of this in my private office, is just full of this 8 case. And I have trouble finding things. I can't 9 seem to put it in any kind of order anywhere. 10 Don't I have Mr. Kartuzinski's deposition? 11 MR. LIROT: Yes. 12 MR. FUGATE: I will check, but I believe you 13 have Johnson, Kartuzinski and David Houghton. 14 THE COURT: Okay. I want to read his 15 deposition for things I want to read it for, maybe 16 not even pertaining to this. But this was a note I 17 made to myself. I can't seem to find it. I'm sure 18 it's in there. If not, I'll ask for another copy. 19 MR. FUGATE: We'll bring another copy tomorrow, 20 Judge. 21 THE COURT: I want to know, Number 1, whether 22 the LMT tax return for 2000 is here. It wasn't here 23 the last time because you-all weren't able to get 24 it. I know there was an objection to be raised to 25 it. Where is it?
718 1 MR. McGOWAN: The LMT tax return is not here, 2 the 2000. 2001, there is no tax return. It is 3 being prepared now. 4 THE COURT: But the 2000 -- 5 MR. McGOWAN: Is not here. 6 THE COURT: Why? 7 MR. McGOWAN: I don't know. It has not -- I 8 didn't know it was going to come up this morning, 9 and it's -- 10 THE COURT: Well, then, let's put it this way. 11 I want to hear your objection to it this afternoon, 12 to give you time to prepare for that. And if I rule 13 that it should be produced, then I'm going to want 14 it. 15 MR. McGOWAN: Very well. 16 THE COURT: Frankly, you should have it here. 17 Then if I sustained your objection, you wouldn't 18 have to turn it over. 19 So the idea is the request has been made for 20 the LMT partnership and the income tax returns of 21 Ms. Brooks. And I don't know, Mr. Minton hasn't 22 testified yet. I saw a request to produce filed in 23 the other case. And then I saw Ms. Brooks' response 24 to request to produce that I have not seen. 25 So I don't know if you filed a request to
719 1 produce -- and I'm now speaking of plaintiff -- in 2 this case, separate, one to Ms. Brooks and one to 3 Mr. Minton, or what. 4 MR. DANDAR: We did. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Well, see, I don't have them 6 so I don't know exactly what the requests to produce 7 were. But I want to hear an argument on the LMT 8 return and on her tax returns, because you objected 9 to those, as well. 10 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, ma'am. To hers 11 specifically. 12 THE COURT: Right. So we'll hear argument on 13 that. And if I overrule your objections, you should 14 be able to hand them up. So if you don't have them, 15 get them. 16 Where is Mr. Minton's lawyer? Is he here? 17 MR. McGOWAN: No. 18 THE COURT: Is Mr. Minton here? 19 MR. McGOWAN: He's in town but not here. 20 THE COURT: Would you pass that on to him, the 21 requests to produce, I assume at the time of his 22 testimony? 23 MR. DANDAR: At the hearing before his 24 testimony. 25 THE COURT: Whatever it is they want to object
720 1 to, I want to hear it, and they ought to have them 2 here. The production ought to be there. Then if 3 the Judge sustains the objection, put it in your 4 briefcase. If the Judge doesn't sustain the 5 objection, you hand it over. 6 So I don't know who is talking to Mr. Minton's 7 counsel, but if I forget, would you please tell 8 Mr. Howie to attempt to have those so that perhaps 9 at some point in time, maybe the same time you hear 10 Ms. Brooks' objection, we can hear Mr. Minton's 11 objections, if there are any, and I can rule on 12 that, and then have these things produced or not. 13 You want to do it tomorrow? I'm not trying to 14 rush you on this, but obviously she's testifying. 15 There has been a request to produce. For all I 16 know, they'll start asking questions and we won't 17 have it. 18 MR. McGOWAN: We can do it this afternoon and 19 I'll get with Mr. Howie during the break. 20 THE COURT: Very well. 21 MR. FUGATE: Judge, on the request to produce 22 front, we complied with the request to produce and 23 provided copies of all of the documents that had 24 been provided by the Church to Ms. Brooks and had 25 been provided by the Church to Mr. Minton that was
721 1 requested that you have heard testimony about. Once 2 you get the transcripts and pleadings -- all that 3 was delivered this morning. And so that has been 4 complied with. 5 THE COURT: And I guess that is where they go. 6 I guess they don't go to me. But I don't want to 7 get in a situation where, you know, I keep reading 8 depositions where, well, I'll take another 9 deposition, somebody produces records. And I want 10 this hearing to be done and we're done. So -- so if 11 there has been request to produce to whomever it is 12 to be produced to, I want to hear argument on that, 13 then I want them turned over if I deny the 14 objections. And if I grant them, it simply goes in 15 the briefcase and goes away. 16 I -- as I was going through this big book here 17 and looking at some of the discovery motions and the 18 continual objections to LMT's records, I couldn't 19 tell. Have they ever been produced? 20 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, your Honor. They were at 21 Mike Keane's office. I had the opportunity to go 22 through them all. And we produced the lion's share 23 of them. And there were a couple attorney-client 24 privileged -- 25 THE COURT: A privilege log?
722 1 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, a privilege log we provided 2 to Mr. Moxon and Mr. Keane. There was some 3 telephone records, as well, that I have gone over 4 and we have turned over to Mr. Moxon. So -- 5 THE COURT: Copies to the other side? 6 MR. McGOWAN: We have simply -- no. We have 7 simply told Mr. Keane what he can give over. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. McGOWAN: I assume he'll give copies to the 10 appropriate people. 11 THE COURT: So, I mean, that was somewhat 12 disconcerting to me, to have to read motion after 13 motion after motion, to have the Court ordering 14 something time after time after time. The best of 15 my knowledge, I couldn't tell if it was ever done. 16 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I disagree with 17 Mr. McGowan this material has been produced. 18 As indicated in some of what we filed with you, 19 a lot of the computer records were destroyed or 20 deleted the day before the computer expert came, and 21 there was a program run to scramble the disks. 22 THE COURT: Well, if it can't be produced, I 23 would suggest there be something that says they 24 can't be produced. 25 MR. MOXON: A lot of disks were missing. And a
723 1 lot of videos that have never been produced, 2 hundreds of videos, we have not seen them. Several 3 hundred CDs of computerized information taken off 4 the computers that were there when the master first 5 went over, then they disappeared, we have not seen 6 them. 7 We are going to produce evidence, at the end of 8 the witnesses here, indicating that a number of 9 boxes of material were also taken out during the 10 litigation. And after Judge Beach had ordered them 11 not to take anything out, a number of boxes were 12 gone, were shipped away. 13 So I -- I completely disagree with 14 Mr. McGowan's representation it has all been 15 produced. 16 MR. McGOWAN: If it please the Court, I learned 17 that there were eight hard drives that were taken 18 out of computers and -- removed from computers, 19 prior to a court order, like within an hour or so of 20 doing that. 21 Upon learning that, I was able to find out what 22 happened to them. They were sent to my office, and 23 they have been turned over to Mr. Keane, those hard 24 drives. I don't know what is on them, but I got 25 them and I turned them over to Mr. Keane.
724 1 THE COURT: Well, I want to be real careful on 2 what is produced here, because as I was noticing, 3 through the different orders, there seemed to be 4 some changes on witnesses, and then witnesses today, 5 as opposed to all witnesses that had ever been 6 listed. 7 So I suppose there is certainly a disagreement 8 right now, I can hear, between you and -- and Mr. 9 Moxon as to whether they have been produced, or they 10 haven't. 11 We'll get this issue resolved as to just 12 exactly what they get, and whether it exists or not. 13 And if it doesn't exist, how it has been destroyed 14 or what happened to it, or it's unavailable because. 15 I mean, I can remember Mr. Minton, for example, 16 which I found, as I tried to express to him fairly 17 innoxious, when he would testify, "Well, it is gone, 18 shredded, destroyed, thrown out." All of that. 19 This just can't happen. 20 So we're going to have to deal with some of 21 these things that have been compelled. So I don't 22 know whether we'll have to just haul all of the 23 records in and I'll have to go through them one at a 24 time. 25 On the other hand, I don't think the Church is
725 1 just entitled to go through a corporation for profit 2 -- every bloody record they have just because they 3 want them. That is not going to happen, either, so 4 we'll have to have something. 5 And the people who have been witnesses that 6 aren't witnesses, never are going to be witnesses, 7 they just don't get that. So I don't want Mr. Keane 8 wholesale giving over everything just because it is 9 too much trouble to go through. We're going to get 10 them what they are entitled to, what the courts have 11 ordered. 12 And, on the other hand, I did see where some 13 Court ordered Mr. Dandar's bank accounts to be 14 turned over. That is not going to happen, if that 15 has been requested, because I have two orders from 16 the Second District Court of Appeal that, in 17 essence, protect, at the very least, the Church's 18 knowledge as to any expenditure -- or any thought of 19 how much money is left for him to use in this case. 20 Therefore, we're going to have to have some -- 21 whatever has been ordered in the past and has been 22 quashed, we'll have to make that consistent with 23 this ruling. 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, the tally has now risen to 25 three orders of that nature from the Second District
726 1 Court. 2 If I may approach, I'll give you the one I 3 believe issued on Friday. 4 THE COURT: All right. Well, all I have are 5 these two. But I was going to say, if there are 6 more things filed -- 7 MR. LIROT: Here you go, Judge. 8 MR. MOXON: Do you have a copy of this, 9 Mr. Lirot? 10 MR. LIROT: I think I have one. 11 THE COURT: I think the only way -- you may sit 12 down, counselor. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Thank you, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: The only way I can fix it, 15 Mr. Dandar, if you'll produce an order for me to 16 sign ordering you not to reveal the things that are 17 protected in these orders, then I will do that. And 18 if another judge compels it, you can produce my 19 order. And, frankly, that should absolve you from a 20 contempt proceeding because you would be obeying a 21 Court's order. I'm not going to have another 22 proceeding undermining what I see in these records. 23 Now, by records, I don't mean records -- what I 24 see the Second District saying in its opinions, and 25 that is the Church is not to know what amounts of
727 1 money Mr. Dandar has received for his litigation in 2 this case, that that would be an advantage to the 3 Church that they are not entitled to have. 4 I understand the Church is going to file 5 something at the Second District level. Fine. They 6 write another opinion, we'll deal with it. But I 7 have got these opinions. 8 And as I read through a case in another circuit 9 court here in my own circuit, and they are saying, 10 "Well, that is in that case and not this case." We 11 can't have that because, I mean, the Second District 12 has made it clear. 13 So I will provide you an order, I will provide 14 your client an order, whatever is required, so that 15 in the event -- and I will now instruct the Church, 16 who is a party in other litigation, until such time 17 as these orders are overturned by the Second 18 District, I would consider sanctions if, in fact, 19 some other way is attempted to be used to find out 20 the information that the Second District clearly 21 says you can't have. 22 Now, I understand what you-all have told me 23 before, which is you now plan to file different 24 things in the Second District saying maybe what you 25 had wasn't accurate, maybe -- whatever it is you
728 1 want to file, they may reverse themselves and say, 2 well, we've got to have a full hearing, and then 3 instruct me to have a hearing. They may reverse 4 their orders or their rulings. 5 But until that happens, I can't have 6 somebody -- a court, requiring counsel to answer 7 what the Second District has clearly told him he 8 does not have to answer. 9 So you provide the order, I'll sign it, you can 10 carry it with you, then you can provide it to a 11 court, or provide it to Judge Beach as the trial 12 resolution judge, or provide it to a master or 13 another judge. 14 The only thing I can suggest to you is in the 15 event a court should order you to answer, and I have 16 ordered you not to, I would assume that that would 17 absolve you from a criminal contempt and you can 18 take your chances. I don't know the answer to that. 19 But, generally speaking, relying on an order of the 20 Court will do it. 21 MR. DANDAR: That new decision we just gave 22 you -- I'm sure you recognize it -- it concerns 23 Judge Baird's discovery order, which was now 24 quashed. 25 THE COURT: I haven't read it. So let me read
729 1 it. 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 THE COURT: Okay? Let me take just a moment. 4 Okay. I'm noticing that Judge Parker 5 apparently is the author of these opinions. But I'm 6 also noticing that the one opinion is Judge Whatley 7 and Casanueva. And that is on both of the earlier 8 opinions. And now I notice that Judge Parker is 9 joined by Judge Salcines and Judge Springer. That 10 is five judges at the 2d DCA level. I don't know 11 how many they have who have said the Church is not 12 entitled to this information. 13 As I read these depositions, and as I read, 14 well, this is waived, and that is waived, I can see 15 the dilemma that counsel, Mr. Dandar, is in. 16 And I -- I think I see the Church trying to get 17 this information any way it can. And I'm telling 18 you to stop. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 20 THE COURT: Go get a different order, go get a 21 different ruling. But I can't have -- I can't read 22 these opinions and not think that these are clear 23 and -- and, you know, another judge doesn't even 24 have them, and they're being asked questions, 25 they're saying, "Oh, well, that is another case," on
730 1 and on. 2 So get me an order. I will sign it. I will 3 give you-all a copy of it. And, as I said, as far 4 as I'm concerned, that is the end of that. 5 MR. FUGATE: Judge, we're going to abide by 6 your order. And I think that what you noted is what 7 we will -- we will be developing during this 8 hearing, in the event that -- that there are facts 9 that change that position. But we will abide by the 10 order. 11 THE COURT: But even in this hearing, in other 12 words -- 13 MR. FUGATE: I appreciate that. 14 THE COURT: -- in light of -- I can't ignore an 15 order from a superior court as to what I think their 16 intent is. And you are right, they may change their 17 mind, you know. We're having a full hearing here. 18 That may go to them and they may take a look and 19 say, well, now -- but I have to assume, and this I 20 don't know, and I think maybe somewhere in here I 21 asked for your submission to them, because I noticed 22 in two of the cases they said they read your rather 23 lengthy submission. 24 And I'm sure, if Judge Parker said he read it, 25 I know Judge Parker, I'm sure he read it. I don't
731 1 know if it dealt with the wrongful death or the 2 whole case, including the counterclaim. But I 3 assume, knowing the thoroughness with which the 4 Church prepares its materials to me, I can only 5 assume they prepared similar materials for the 6 District Court, because I noticed they mentioned in 7 there the thoroughness -- 8 MR. FUGATE: I think it is in the -- 9 THE COURT: The first one? 10 MR. FUGATE: The second opinion, I think. But 11 I could be wrong. 12 THE COURT: Yes, it says: "We have thoroughly 13 reviewed the Church's lengthy response and 14 attachments and conclude that the information sought 15 is not reasonably calculated to lead to the 16 discovery of admissible evidence in the trial of the 17 wrongful death action." 18 As I said, I guess the concern I had is whether 19 they were aware of the counterclaim. But knowing 20 you-all, I'm assuming they knew it, because I know 21 you-all and how you present your materials to me. I 22 assume you would be even more thorough with a 23 superior court. So I assume they knew that. I have 24 to assume they knew that. 25 MR. FUGATE: The difficulty -- Judge, I think
732 1 what happened in the testimony that just recently 2 occurred, the 2d DCA, if I read those opinions 3 correctly -- and I just glanced at the third one, I 4 haven't read it -- but the allegation to the 2d DCA 5 is that the moneys have been paid -- that have come 6 in have been paid to the estate to offset costs and 7 expenses, which is different now than what 8 Mr. Dandar has testified to in front of Judge Baird, 9 which is the money came to him personally and he 10 could do with it what he wanted. 11 Where that leaves us, I don't know. 12 THE COURT: I think the Second District would 13 rule exactly the same. That is what they said, you 14 are not entitled to know how much money he has to 15 fund this litigation. I assume they mean that. And 16 until such time they tell me differently, I'm going 17 to abide by their order. 18 MR. FUGATE: We're going to abide by your order 19 when you sign it, Judge. 20 MR. LIROT: And if I may, Judge, you are 21 absolutely correct. After the first two orders came 22 out of the Second District Court, the Church filed a 23 motion for rehearing. Mr. Fugate apparently signed 24 it. And they brought up all this so-called new 25 evidence.
733 1 And the Second District Court, they just denied 2 the motion for rehearing. 3 I would like to give you that, this -- 4 THE COURT: And, you know, as I read this -- 5 this is another problem I have. You know, I read 6 the transcript. And you know how much time I had 7 with it, I read it, but I read it as fast as my eyes 8 would allow me to, and I read through it as quickly 9 as I could. 10 But as I read through it more carefully 11 Thursday night, all day Friday, all day Saturday and 12 all day Sunday, I realized there is stuff in there I 13 can't let into evidence. 14 For example, this Mr. Rosen, is he a licensed 15 lawyer in Florida? 16 MR. DANDAR: No. 17 THE COURT: Then he doesn't know how we do 18 business here. But you can't introduce into a 19 hearing, for heaven's sakes, like that, deposition 20 testimony. Just because you impeach someone from a 21 deposition, it doesn't become substantive evidence. 22 I mean, we have agreed a lot of times that we 23 have taken things, because the deposition testimony 24 and -- it would be helpful and this and that and the 25 other thing. But I saw Mr. Lirot objecting to a
734 1 deposition, for heaven's sakes, part of a 2 deposition, being introduced of a witness who wasn't 3 even there. 4 That ain't going to happen. So I don't know 5 what happened. I may have to just reverse myself on 6 that, because I can't consider evidence that clearly 7 is inappropriately in a hearing. 8 So that stuff -- but, I mean, Mr. Fugate, you 9 know you can't impeach somebody and then somehow put 10 that into a hearing like this -- it is different 11 from a Frye hearing, this is a due process type 12 hearing we're having -- and pretend like somehow 13 that becomes substantive evidence. It doesn't, it 14 isn't, and it needs to be out, out of that hearing, 15 as well. 16 But that is not my hearing, that is Judge 17 Baird's hearing. 18 MR. FUGATE: I can assure you I'm going to 19 follow your Honor's rulings and we are going to do 20 it the way you want to do it. 21 THE COURT: Good. What we need to do is make 22 sure I make myself clear. Some of these things 23 Mr. Rosen -- well, as I said, I was flabbergasted. 24 I don't know how I missed it the first time. He's 25 showing a witness and having him read silently. It
735 1 is not even in the record. I don't even know what 2 it is. Somebody reads silently something and then 3 he introduces that as substantive evidence from some 4 sister or -- I don't know what that is. But it 5 isn't coming into my court that way. 6 So no impeachment evidence gets in as 7 substantive evidence. So I may have to adjust what 8 my ruling was and say some of those exhibits, while 9 they are in, gosh, I have seen everything, I have 10 seen everything so many times, you know, how a jury, 11 a court, is able to keep stuff straight. 12 But I don't want you to think, for example, 13 when -- if you present argument, that you can -- 14 that you could look to some document that has been 15 introduced as some witness, whatever that was, and 16 start reciting it, because I'm going to either have 17 to say, "Don't do that," or else I'll have to tell 18 you what I will accept as evidence and what I won't 19 accept as evidence. 20 MR. FUGATE: I think, as you have seen as we 21 have progressed, we have taken pains, because there 22 are deposition exhibits that have different numbers 23 on it that changed, but I think we have done the 24 best to get those things identified for the record. 25 THE COURT: I understand. But you understand
736 1 what I'm saying. Mr. Rosen isn't here, or Mr. Rosen 2 does things, like -- for example, I noticed on one 3 thing he introduced at a deposition, you know, one 4 thing that he impeached from, I mean, everything has 5 its own little number, you have one deposition, you 6 have all these different numbers on it -- 7 apparently, Mr. Rosen does. Then, the very next 8 page on it might say something different, or might 9 say, wait a minute, I don't think that is right. So 10 we can't have that. 11 And so if you are going to impeach somebody 12 from a deposition, number one, you'll give them the 13 deposition, if you have to. You don't even have to, 14 you don't have to give somebody a deposition, you 15 can stand there and ask them, "Did you say this?" 16 If they say no, that is the end of the inquiry. You 17 get a court reporter in. If they say yes, they have 18 been impeached. It doesn't get introduced. It is 19 impeachment. That is all it is. 20 I don't even know how you get to ask somebody 21 about what somebody else has said. That is totally 22 improper questions. 23 So we're going to have to adjust the evidence 24 in this hearing at some point in time. Okay? 25 MR. FUGATE: I understand.
737 1 THE COURT: As I said, Mr. Rosen isn't here. 2 You-all are. I know you-all. And I know you-all 3 know how to practice under the rules of Florida. 4 And that is what we're going to deal with here, that 5 certainly is not -- well, Mr. Rosen, that is neither 6 here nor there. He's not here. 7 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Let's see. What have I got next? 9 Next thing I have here is the discussion about 10 something with Mr. Minton. So since neither he nor 11 his lawyer are here, I'll save it. 12 I think I have done this, tell attorneys I will 13 continue to take testimony throughout the days I set 14 aside, and if we're not done, we'll go into June. 15 And Judge Beach, I explained that to you, we 16 have to resolve this thing. It has been very slow. 17 I don't know if it will speed up or go slower, but 18 we have to get it done. 19 I don't understand the reason for the sealed 20 depositions in this case. What is this confidential 21 deposition? I never heard of such -- 22 MR. FUGATE: They were sealed really, Judge, 23 because of the criminal case. And there was -- 24 there was a cross-over with the time the criminal 25 case was going forward. And after it ended -- and I
738 1 could be wrong but I think that order was dissolved 2 except for private things that people were asked 3 about. 4 There was a lot of questions that normally I 5 guess would not have been asked that were asked. 6 And the Judge said if there is something a person 7 designates -- Judge Moody said if there is something 8 a person designates as private, you know, I will 9 hear whether or not to disclose that portion of the 10 deposition. 11 Because the objections, as I recall -- at that 12 time, there would be a question about a person's 13 religious beliefs asked of a witness. And in some 14 instances they would say, "I don't object to that 15 being public." In some cases they would say they 16 did, as I remember it. 17 THE COURT: I don't know of anybody that allows 18 somebody to object to it and say -- if it is filed, 19 we can't seal stuff. The press has a right to look 20 at everything. There may be one exception to this, 21 and what we'll have to do -- I'm going to unseal 22 everything, with the possible exception of -- of the 23 Lisa McPherson -- I'm not sure what you call them, 24 files. 25 MR. MOXON: Photographs.
739 1 MR. FUGATE: PC folder. 2 THE COURT: PC folder. If I understand this 3 correctly, those are in the nature -- at least, it's 4 alleged those are in the nature of priest penitent 5 documents. 6 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 7 THE COURT: That being the case, then there 8 should be some limited exposure of those and to what 9 is really necessary and what have you. 10 I don't know what happens if that becomes an 11 issue in the trial. I suspect it becomes public. 12 But at least at this point in time I will hear -- I 13 will keep those sealed until I hear something or 14 otherwise order it. 15 But please understand, I cannot seal anything 16 in a court file unless I give -- I have to give 17 notice to the media. I can't seal something just 18 because you all agreed. I get stuff all of the time 19 from lawyers that ask me to sign off on some sort of 20 confidentiality. And I don't sign it. Sue has a 21 stamp that says "Return to Sender Unsigned." 22 I tell them, "You have to be kidding me. I 23 have to notify the media. I can't do it. So 24 you-all can agree whatever you want. If you get 25 ready to file it in the court file, you file it."
740 1 Or if you don't want me to seal it, then we 2 have to have a hearing and I have to give the press 3 notice in advance. So anything that is filed in 4 this court file is open except if I order it sealed. 5 If there is any depositions that need to be 6 sealed, somebody will have to come tell me about it, 7 we'll have to have a hearing. I may have -- I mean, 8 there is stuff filed all over the place. If 9 somebody said it needs to be sealed, I betcha I 10 didn't see it. 11 You know what I'm saying? 12 MR. FUGATE: I can assure the Court we followed 13 exactly that procedure, both sides did, whenever 14 there were requests made of Judge Moody, and he did 15 have the hearings. 16 The only thing I would request of your Honor, 17 because I just can't remember the people that are 18 involved and the attorneys that were involved, that 19 we -- we, at least, will go through that when we 20 have a moment and notify everybody that that is the 21 Court's -- 22 THE COURT: If it is filed. Some of these 23 things -- I mean, thus far I think the type of 24 depositions filed have been cockroaches and 25 vitreous. And those folks don't care if that stuff
741 1 was -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Right. 3 THE COURT: So that has been made part of the 4 record. And that is fine. 5 MR. MOXON: There are two other categories, 6 your Honor, that might be slightly problematic. 7 The reason this was put in -- I'll refresh 8 Mr. Fugate's recollection of it -- there were 9 depositions with personal information, and then 10 there were statements made to the media on the 11 plaintiff's side. 12 We came in, originally filed a motion to seal 13 the transcripts of private information of church -- 14 of church parishioners who were required -- 15 subpoenaed to give depositions. So that -- 16 THE COURT: Private what? What private? 17 MR. MOXON: Private religious beliefs and 18 activities. 19 THE COURT: Never heard of such. You will 20 probably ask a jury about that. I'm not going to 21 exclude the press from that. We can't have it. 22 There is no such thing. 23 MR. MOXON: But the other category is there 24 were some affidavits -- 25 THE COURT: Sit down, Mr. Dandar.
742 1 MR. MOXON: There were several affidavits by 2 plaintiff's witnesses, Hannah Whitfield and Jesse 3 Prince who looked through PC folders, and they gave 4 their affidavit concerning their interpretation. So 5 all of the PC folders are excluded from your order? 6 THE COURT: Well, I tell you what. It will be 7 gone into in this hearing and it will not be sealed. 8 MR. MOXON: At the moment, it is sealed. Can 9 we go in that? 10 THE COURT: Sure. But I'm not going to 11 exclude -- in the first place, I have to round up 12 the media. 13 MR. MOXON: They already had notice back then. 14 THE COURT: This will come out in this hearing. 15 He has already given notice as to Jesse Prince is a 16 witness. 17 MR. MOXON: But I'm talking about Lisa 18 McPherson's PC folders. 19 THE COURT: I understand. Jesse Prince will be 20 testifying, I presume at some point in time, as 21 to -- as to -- maybe not -- maybe not in this 22 hearing, but at some point in time either Jesse 23 Prince or somebody will testify, if Mr. Dandar 24 persists with his claim, about something that 25 suggests something from the PC folders.
743 1 At that point in time, I'm not going to exclude 2 the media. 3 MR. MOXON: I guess we'll not get to that now. 4 But thank you for your thoughts on that. We'll 5 address that then later. 6 THE COURT: I can't do that unless -- 7 understand what prior restraint is. It doesn't 8 matter what the Church thinks. And it doesn't 9 matter what Ms. Liebreich thinks. A hearing is open 10 to the public. And everything introduced in court 11 is open to the public. If anything is to be sealed 12 in any court file -- it cannot be sealed. The Times 13 could absolutely this moment come in and have the 14 Second District unseal anything that is sealed in 15 the court file unless there has been a judge that 16 has had a hearing, with the press notified, in 17 advance, to present argument as to why something 18 shouldn't be sealed. That is the only way it could 19 be sealed. 20 So unless you have that sort of thing, there 21 should be nothing in this court file that is sealed. 22 MR. MOXON: Understood. That did happen. 23 MR. FUGATE: Well, frankly, Judge, I'll stand 24 corrected, but I think everything that is in the 25 court file is in an unsealed capacity.
744 1 THE COURT: That is what I assume. 2 MR. FUGATE: I think that the issue was in some 3 cases where there was a deposition that had the 4 personal information, the ground rules at that time 5 was that before you file it -- in other words, you 6 just can't file it to make it public. So that at 7 that time we alleged they were using them for story 8 purposes. Forget that. 9 If it is going to be filed, what the order of 10 Judge Moody said, as I recall it, and I don't have 11 it in front of me, if there is anything in there 12 that for some reason the person objects to, their 13 lawyer can come in and argue that to the Court. 14 But everything that is in the court file 15 is public. PC folders are not. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar? 17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it was always plaintiff's 18 position, from day one, everything that was filed 19 with the Court be made public. 20 The PC folders we agreed to keep private. But 21 under the statute, the personal representative is 22 the only one that can waive that privilege, and she 23 did. However, we maintain that privilege. 24 There are the Hannah Whitfield affidavit and 25 Jesse Prince affidavits filed with this Court that
745 1 contain information from the PC folders. They 2 should all have been made public, those affidavits 3 and the information contained therein. We don't -- 4 THE COURT: They are in the court file, as far 5 as I'm concerned, they are public. There should be 6 nothing -- 7 MR. DANDAR: There are three -- one from Ben 8 Shaw -- on the PC folders. It should all be public. 9 THE COURT: They are public. I held no 10 hearing. And unless Judge Moody had a hearing where 11 the press received notice in advance, there is 12 nothing in this court file that should be sealed. 13 If it has been done, it has been done. If it 14 hasn't, it hasn't. So, you know -- 15 MR. FUGATE: It's my recollection it was done. 16 And I'll go look for that and give the Court a 17 report. 18 THE COURT: But I guess what happened, I was 19 reading through some depositions the other night -- 20 MR. FUGATE: They were stamped "Confidential." 21 THE COURT: I'm thinking, what is this? These 22 things were introduced. They can't be confidential. 23 So whoever was told that needs to be told, 24 sorry, we have done the best we could, but once they 25 get introduced, they are not confidential.
746 1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I understand that. That is 2 the distinction I made is everything that has gone 3 into the court, is in the file, is public record. 4 And the affidavits, I think, are not. And that 5 is because there was a hearing on those and there 6 was an order from Judge Moody. 7 But I will check, and I'll let the Court know 8 tomorrow, when I come back, as to what that is and 9 give you a copy of the order. 10 THE COURT: Okay. And, frankly, if -- if -- I 11 need to see a transcript of it. I mean, I need to 12 see that Judge Moody invited the press. Because if 13 he didn't invite the press and do a prior hearing 14 then, in fact, at any time, those are not sealed, 15 they are not validly sealed. So unless Judge Moody 16 had an order that he signed after he invited the 17 press, the appropriate press, to object, and if they 18 didn't object, that is their problem. 19 If they did object and he made a ruling, thank 20 you very much for coming, they are sealed, that is 21 fine. 22 But if I just got some order signed by Judge 23 Moody, who didn't do what I just told you has to be 24 done, it is not sealed and it will not be sealed in 25 my court file.
747 1 MR. FUGATE: I'll not trust my recollection 2 because that was a number of years ago. But I'll go 3 get the transcript and the order and give that to 4 your Honor to look at. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, it is your turn. 6 MR. DANDAR: One last time. I believe there is 7 an order in the March of '98 amended order with the 8 press that says once it is filed with the Court, it 9 is not confidential any more. So anything that you 10 have -- 11 THE COURT: Oh, then that is good. Then 12 everybody should know that. 13 MR. FUGATE: That's right, your Honor. I 14 thought I said that. But if I didn't, everything -- 15 THE COURT: I thought you were telling me there 16 were affidavits that were sealed. And if they were 17 sealed, then I need to unseal them unless there has 18 been some hearing where the press has been invited. 19 MR. FUGATE: That is the exception. That is 20 what I will give you a transcript and order on you 21 can look at. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. DANDAR: The affidavits are still, quote, 24 under seal. There is no court order. So we'll have 25 to have a hearing on that.
748 1 THE COURT: Were they put under seal after 2 notice to the press? 3 MR. DANDAR: No. I voluntarily -- 4 THE COURT: They cannot be sealed. 5 MR. DANDAR: I voluntarily did that. 6 THE COURT: You can't do that, counselor. 7 Please understand you have no ability to seal 8 something in my court file. 9 MR. DANDAR: I agree with you. 10 THE COURT: It can only be sealed after I tell 11 the press, and I have done this in every case since 12 I have been on the bench. As I said, I stamp these 13 things regularly, when these confidential agreements 14 come in between lawyers, I tell -- if I don't just 15 have a stack of stuff -- I am sure I have signed a 16 few, probably when I have 50,000 things to sign and 17 I'm in a rush -- but if I see them, I tell my 18 secretary, stamp it "Would not sign," and I explain 19 to them I cannot agree with them. If they file it 20 in the court file and they really mean it, they'll 21 have to tell me, I have to notice the press and we 22 have to have a hearing. 23 When I tell them that, "Well, we don't want to 24 bother with that." 25 I tell them, "Okay, then it is not under seal."
749 1 MR. FUGATE: I'll do what I said, Judge. I'll 2 get you the transcript and the order, because I 3 can't remember. 4 THE COURT: But we can assume all of the 5 depositions that have been filed, nobody violated 6 anything, because if it is filed, it's not sealed. 7 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 8 THE COURT: I'm sure I filed stuff -- I mean, 9 we have had Frye hearings. Things have been filed. 10 They are open, anything I filed. 11 MR. FUGATE: Anything in the court file, 12 deposition-wise, is public record. 13 THE COURT: Okay. I think I have this, but for 14 some reason I could not find it. I will look one 15 more time in my office, and I'm sure it is there. I 16 was just kind of frantically looking for odds and 17 ends, as well, for this hearing, this weekend. 18 I need the transcript on the severe sanction 19 hearing involving Mr. Prince. I think somebody gave 20 it to me, or I got parts of it. 21 I know what happened was I got an order from 22 Mr. Dandar. I got an objection from Mr. Moxon. 23 And, Mr. Moxon, you may have put with that a 24 portion of the transcript. 25 MR. MOXON: I -- I thought --
750 1 THE COURT: Maybe you didn't. 2 MR. MOXON: We'll be happy to give you a 3 transcript. 4 MR. DANDAR: We did that. 5 THE COURT: Somebody gave me -- 6 MR. MOXON: That is right, Mr. Dandar gave you 7 a little piece of transcript. 8 THE COURT: A little piece. Little pieces are 9 no good. I need the transcript. There is no rush 10 on that. But as I said, I would like to get some of 11 these orders outstanding done. So if somebody could 12 get me that, it would be real appreciated. 13 Maybe I have that. Like I said, I got real 14 frustrated trying to find stuff this weekend, 15 because I have got so much. 16 Okay. The cockroach expert I found and took 17 home. So I'll try to do that order finally, because 18 I want to put a little something in there regarding 19 that. 20 So -- I'm talking to myself. I'm prattling on 21 the record. 22 MR. DANDAR: Could I make a comment about that? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. DANDAR: When you consider writing that 25 order, would you please consider the fact that the
751 1 evidence that you say is missing is missing because 2 of the defendant's actions, not because of the 3 plaintiff? 4 THE COURT: Well, you know, counselor, I don't 5 need to hear that. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. 7 THE COURT: Thank you very much. I'm very 8 capable of writing an order after I had a hearing. 9 MR. DANDAR: All right. 10 THE COURT: And, yes, I will certainly consider 11 everything I have. But I don't know what that is 12 all about, and I don't want to hear it. 13 My recollection is is the reason I wrote this 14 down, I wanted to look through your expert's 15 testimony that I believe said something to the 16 effect that to have this damage would require 50 to 17 75 cockroaches. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to look 18 through it. 19 That is why I said, there has to be some sort 20 of infestation. And he was asked by counsel, how 21 many would there be? And he mentioned a number. 22 I know, of course, your one doctor, who is not 23 an entomologist, he testified. He said two 24 cockroaches. But he's not the expert. 25 So looking at what the expert said, I wanted to
752 1 use that in my order, so I have it, and I wanted to 2 see what I was thinking. 3 I have some outstanding orders. And I wrote 4 down four of them, it would seem to me, would have 5 some importance. I don't know if I have discovery 6 orders. 7 Do you know what would be nice, to me, I didn't 8 have to deal with all those, I wish they were dealt 9 with before I got into this. 10 I have motion to exclude scientific evidence 11 vitreous outstanding; motion to exclude scientific 12 evidence, cockroaches, outstanding; motion for 13 severe sanctions outstanding; motion to reconsider 14 false imprisonment summary judgment. 15 I have all those four things that I have not 16 entered orders on. 17 Do I have any other major things, I mean, that 18 you-all can think of right offhand? If you can, 19 would you-all think about it and bring them to my 20 attention, because I need to get some orders in the 21 court file. 22 You-all haven't seen some of these. When I get 23 all bogged down, I will write an order so you have 24 it, then I will subject it to being supplemented 25 when the Court has time to do that. So you may see
753 1 some of those. 2 I'm sorry I'm taking so much time. But we're 3 going to go through this. I couldn't -- you know 4 what, there was resubmitted to me Page 1 of the 5 original motion. And I looked through it, and the 6 only thing I could find was just a little bit of 7 different verbiage in the first paragraph. 8 Is there -- am I missing something there? 9 MR. FUGATE: No. Actually, that -- 10 THE COURT: Why was that done? I mean -- 11 MR. FUGATE: It was -- it was a word processing 12 drop. There was, I think, a phrase that was dropped 13 out of the original. And actually what Mr. Moxon, I 14 think, did is prepared that and submitted it, and we 15 had said that we would just note it and -- and you 16 would write it in and initial it, rather than submit 17 it. But it was already submitted. 18 THE COURT: All right. Well, at some point I 19 started looking at the true and trying to compare 20 line by line. And I thought, what am I doing this 21 for. 22 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, we should have 23 highlighted it. It is literally about six words out 24 of the first sentence. 25 THE COURT: At some point I'll give that to you
754 1 and you tell me, and what I'll do, on my copy, write 2 it in. 3 MR. MOXON: All right. 4 THE COURT: The thing I did notice, in the 5 footnote I saw Mr. Minton provided three affidavits. 6 This the on the re- -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Recantation. 8 THE COURT: -- recantation affidavit that -- 9 Ms. Brooks filed two. I have both of Ms. Brooks' 10 and I have two of Mr. Minton's. I don't remember 11 ever seeing a third one. 12 MR. FUGATE: You should -- I think you have the 13 second and the third, and there was actually a 14 first. And -- and if it's not there, we'll get a 15 copy of it. 16 THE COURT: At some point in time let me show 17 you what I have. I know I only have two. 18 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 19 THE COURT: Because I looked real carefully. 20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we only have two. 21 THE COURT: If there is a third one, I don't 22 know what it is. So I better get it, and give a 23 copy to counsel. 24 MR. WEINBERG: There is a third one, and it was 25 submitted by Mr. Howie on April 29th, 2002. I have
755 1 seen a notice of filing. 2 THE COURT: Is it a later one, or an earlier 3 one? 4 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court -- 5 THE COURT: Hi, Mr. Howie. 6 MR. HOWIE: It was an earlier one. And it is 7 not titled "First Affidavit." Obviously when 8 written, we didn't contemplate subsequent 9 affidavits. But I did file it and served it on all 10 of -- 11 THE COURT: You probably did, and gave it to 12 me, but somehow I only have two. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Here is another copy. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 MR. DANDAR: Do you have an extra copy? 16 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have an extra one. But 17 we'll get you an extra one. 18 THE COURT: Oh, no, I don't have this. So -- I 19 don't believe I ever saw this. So this must be the 20 third one. 21 Mr. Howie, maybe you gave it to me and maybe 22 you had all these copies to send out -- I don't 23 recall seeing it. 24 MR. HOWIE: I'm afraid I don't have any 25 independent recollection. But I would have filed
756 1 the original, probably by my own hand, downstairs. 2 THE COURT: I have no doubt about that. And 3 I'm sure you served everybody you served. But 4 whether you served me, I don't know. And you don't 5 have to serve me, but whether you sent me a copy, I 6 haven't seen it before, so now I have got it. That 7 takes care of that. 8 Since you are here, I did indicate that if you 9 have some objection to what was requested to be 10 produced, that I suspect we might ought to want to 11 take that up before he testifies so that if they 12 want to ask him questions and you had some 13 objections and it hasn't been resolved, I don't want 14 to go through -- I would like this hearing to be 15 done. So I'll either sustain the objection, 16 overrule the objection. If I overrule the 17 objection, I would expect it to be produced. 18 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I have a written 19 response to the request for production. And I'll 20 provide that to everyone here. 21 THE COURT: I assume that is something you'll 22 deal with when it is his turn to testify. 23 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Because when I got his books -- it 25 was kind of handed up to me when she got on the
757 1 stand. So we'll deal with hers this afternoon. 2 Just be ready. 3 In other words, I'm going to probably say we 4 ought to deal with that before he testifies, or 5 right soon. 6 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. 7 THE COURT: All right. So I have already told 8 you I think those are the four orders that I 9 consider -- that I still have outstanding to do. 10 And I need to have you-all tell me, if you can 11 remember, others that I -- that I haven't done. 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, on Page 267 of Dr. Goff's 13 deposition he does, at Line 12 and 13, make a guess 14 at 40 to 50 roaches. 15 THE COURT: Okay. That is what I'm thinking. 16 To cause the injuries he was describing, right? 17 MR. DANDAR: Yes. But he's guessing. 18 THE COURT: Well, I understand that, counselor, 19 but -- 20 MR. DANDAR: That is what he says. 21 THE COURT: -- that is going in my order. In 22 other words, when I suggest to you I need something 23 more before I'll let that prejudicial testimony in, 24 that is what I'm talking about. I want something 25 where you can show that there is a bunch of
758 1 cockroaches, maybe not 40 to 50, but sure more than 2 two. See? 3 And if you don't have it, you don't get the 4 testimony. And that will be in my order, and I'll 5 be citing from that expert of yours, page and line, 6 maybe. Or maybe it will just be a little order 7 saying it will be supplemented later when I have got 8 the time. But that influenced me. 9 I'm going to do one of these -- one of these 10 pages, I'll save the second page until after lunch 11 or we'll not get anything done. 12 I have got that. 13 I don't know how we're going to do this. This 14 is, I guess, sort of important. I don't know how 15 we're going to do this. 16 I think I remembered the Church saying, at some 17 point in time, that there was more summary judgments 18 or more motions to be forthcoming once we finish 19 with this one. Obviously, an allegation in this -- 20 in this motion is that there was some impropriety in 21 the very complaint that was drafted and that there 22 is no basis in truth or fact for the affidavit -- 23 I'm sorry, for the complaint that we are riding 24 under here, the fifth complaint. 25 I think I told you all early on that I guess
759 1 I -- I mean, Mr. Fugate provided me all these 2 materials. And I know I looked at them. But I just 3 don't normally study a complaint that much. So I 4 obviously had not studied it to the extent that I 5 now have studied it. 6 At some point in time, they are either going to 7 be filing a motion, or it may have -- it may have 8 some import on this hearing. It certainly would 9 have some import on the counterclaim, I would 10 assume, as to whether or not there is some proof of 11 this. 12 But even past that, I don't want to go through 13 a two-month trial to enter a directed verdict. I 14 mean, you know what I'm saying? In other words, you 15 said this is your complaint, this is the complaint 16 you are traveling under, the intentional actions 17 of -- and all of the stuff that is said in there, 18 which obviously I have been told by the other side 19 is just not true, is false. 20 This is an awfully long trial to go through if 21 you don't have any proof. So I don't know whether 22 they are going to file a motion, or whether I'm 23 going to hear this throughout the course of this -- 24 sit down, Mr. Fugate. 25 MR. FUGATE: I was going to answer your
760 1 question. 2 THE COURT: You don't need to now because I'm 3 talking. 4 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 5 THE COURT: At some point in time, I need to 6 know -- and I think even bears on this -- what 7 evidence you have that you are going to produce in 8 this trial to prove these things. I don't want you 9 to have to give away to the other side here your 10 trial strategy. I don't think that is fair. 11 But like I have heard so much about the Prince 12 affidavit, I have now read it for the second time. 13 But you are telling me Mr. Prince is not your 14 witness. 15 Well, if he's not, who do you have that is 16 going to attest to -- I mean, it's in his affidavit, 17 the stuff in that complaint. And so if he was going 18 to come in and testify to that in court, well, that 19 is his testimony. 20 I have been very clear on telling you he would 21 be allowed, under Florida law, to testify. I'm sure 22 he'll be cross-examined about his bias. And that is 23 just very clear. It's very clear to me. Whatever 24 that means will be for a jury. 25 Well, you have told me he's not going to
761 1 testify. 2 MR. DANDAR: Right. 3 THE COURT: Maybe you are going to use 4 Ms. Brooks here to testify. You can certainly call 5 her as an adverse witness to testify. And she 6 indicated she was a participant in some of that. I 7 don't know. Maybe you don't want Ms. Brooks. 8 Several people you have listed and then you 9 have withdrawn. If you don't have a witness, well, 10 we can do quick work of this, either get this into a 11 wrongful death posture with negligence -- I think 12 your own experts certainly would put this in the 13 category of gross negligence, some of them. And I 14 think you have one. 15 And I did, believe it or not, you know, I was 16 going to Atlanta, I expected to enjoy my weekend, 17 but I was here reading this. I read those doctors' 18 testimony again. I went in and got them, and I did 19 see where one of your experts suggested he's not 20 sure if they're telling the truth based -- he does 21 not necessarily agree with that. That is Dr. Spitz, 22 I believe. 23 So I don't know if that is what you are riding 24 on, or you have somebody -- but there is -- there 25 are some allegations that have the Church in a stew.
762 1 And I can understand that. It would have me in a 2 stew, too, if I were a member of that church or 3 congregation, or if I were a leader. If you don't 4 have proof or somebody to come in and testify to 5 that, we need to get it out of there. 6 If you do, I need to know who it is. But I -- 7 you know, you have to tell them who your witnesses 8 are. 9 So, as I said, I read Mr. Prince's affidavit. 10 Is he a witness of yours? 11 MR. DANDAR: He was. To be honest with you, 12 I'm desperately trying to get an ex-Scientologist as 13 a witness to testify. 14 But I do have three pathologists who called 15 this a homicide of intentional medical neglect. 16 THE COURT: Well, that is quite different from 17 what you have in your complaint. You can't make 18 these allegations and -- you can't make those 19 allegations and let me think we're going to trial in 20 front of a jury on some theory that the Church had 21 some -- some oppressive person in end cycle Fair 22 Game, and she was a public relations nemesis to 23 them, so they just decided to let her die. But you 24 don't have proof to that. 25 I don't want some story being written by some
763 1 newspaper that comes in here and publishes it saying 2 this is what this case is all about, because it 3 isn't. If it is about whether or not there was 4 gross negligence, and that they classify this as a 5 homicide due to, in essence, a manslaughter type of 6 negligence, well, then that is what we need to be 7 knowing we're going to trial on. 8 So you are saying you are trying desperately. 9 Well, the trial is coming up. 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, you know, I -- 11 THE COURT: I'm just putting you on notice. As 12 I said, I don't know whether the Church plans to 13 file something, because I know you had indicated 14 there was a couple more summary judgments I was 15 going to hear. 16 MR. FUGATE: That I what I rose to tell you. 17 We'll file, probably tomorrow, a motion on net 18 accumulations, a motion on judgment on the 19 pleadings, and bench memo that goes to the issues 20 that we're -- 21 THE COURT: Judgment on the pleadings won't 22 help you much. The pleadings withstood a motion to 23 dismiss. 24 I think the question is does he have any proof 25 of that.
764 1 MR. FUGATE: That would be the direction -- 2 THE COURT: You are going to file something 3 that -- 4 MR. FUGATE: Let's put it this way. We're 5 going to file something and file it tomorrow. 6 THE COURT: I understand your dilemma. As I 7 told you, and as I will tell you again, I'm of the 8 belief, I always have been of the belief, if you 9 subpoena Mr. Prince to court, he will testify for 10 you. That is your decision as to whether or not -- 11 MR. DANDAR: I may just do that then. 12 THE COURT: Well, you may have to. I mean, if 13 that is what you want to do. But, I mean, 14 Mr. Prince is coming in to testify in this hearing, 15 you said. 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes, he is. 17 THE COURT: As I said, Mr. Prince would 18 testify, if asked. I understand why you might not 19 wish to make him your expert witness of the Church 20 because of his obvious bias, and bias can be 21 cross-examined very thoroughly. And, therefore, the 22 jury will know of that. And I have made my -- you 23 know, I have made that known before, that I think 24 Mr. Prince has some problems. 25 But I have also researched the Florida law, as
765 1 you'll recall, because I had some problems in the 2 severe sanction motion as to whether or not he could 3 be called, under Florida law, with the amount of 4 bias I believe he had. And I determined he could 5 be. 6 In other words, I resolved that law against the 7 Church, in your favor, that he, under Florida law, 8 could be called. 9 But, of course, the Florida law is also very 10 clear that absolute cross-examination is permitted 11 in every possible type of bias and what have you. 12 So I need to know what kind of complaint we are 13 flying under. One, it's quite different from some 14 pathologist coming in, saying the degree of 15 negligence I saw is akin to manslaughter. 16 Therefore, I call it a homicide. 17 I mean, I have that nursing home case. I mean, 18 we give punitive damages to a jury on nursing home 19 cases where nobody is suggesting that somebody stood 20 by and let them die. That is a horse of a different 21 color. So I want to know here what we have here 22 that we're flying on. 23 MR. DANDAR: Even my medical experts say that, 24 with or without Mr. Prince. 25 THE COURT: You have one expert who says he has
766 1 problems with the testimony of the -- of the 2 witnesses because he believes they would have been 3 aware of her absolute desperate need for medical 4 attention and, therefore, he does not believe -- 5 MR. DANDAR: I think Dr. Bandt and Dr. Spitz 6 both expressed that. Maybe -- 7 THE COURT: You are giving Dr. Bandt too much 8 credit. If you really want to know, I wrote it 9 down, and I probably have it sitting right down here 10 on the bench, what he says. He classifies it as a 11 homicide and classifies it as gross negligence. 12 That would be akin to a manslaughter. That is -- 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. 14 THE COURT: That is quite different from 15 somebody standing by, intentionally allowing 16 somebody to die pursuant to some religious paper 17 that says they are going to end cycle because she's 18 a public relations nuisance. 19 MR. DANDAR: He doesn't explain that. 20 THE COURT: No, he does not. 21 THE COURT: And that is the complaint, you see. 22 So we're going to have to get this thing in good 23 order. I don't know what we do at this stage. 24 MR. DANDAR: I can certainly amend it if I 25 can't get Mr. Prince or someone like him to testify.
767 1 THE COURT: Well, I have got to know. We'll 2 have to have a date at which we say this is the date 3 and we're going to decide -- I keep using "we." 4 Luckily I use it for both sides. So we're going to 5 decide here whether you are going to get Mr. Prince 6 in here, or somebody like Mr. Prince, who will make 7 these allegations or not. 8 MR. DANDAR: All right. 9 THE COURT: And so if you don't have that, then 10 we're going to get down to whatever it is you think 11 we have. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: So the Church knows what it is they 14 are defending. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 THE COURT: All right? So I'm putting you on 17 notice of that. As I said, if we -- when we do 18 that, if you have some -- you want to do a notice of 19 filing and do an in-camera hearing, as long as you 20 do a notice of filing and advise them we're going to 21 do an in-camera hearing, I may or may not do that. 22 But as I said, I don't want you to have to 23 stand up in court and tell them every bit of your -- 24 you know, what it is you plan to do. But I think at 25 some point I have to know whether that is what we're
768 1 going to be reading about or hearing about, or 2 whether we're going to be reading and hearing about 3 some gross negligence beliefs on the part of the 4 physicians that you have summoned as experts. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. 6 THE COURT: Okay. That is two pages. I have 7 two more. I think what we'll do is we'll stop for 8 now. I'm always dangerous when I'm given time, 9 especially time that I set aside to do something 10 more fun, because I sent everybody out and I just 11 had at it with all this stuff. So, all right. 12 Hello (to witness). 13 THE WITNESS: Hello, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I think we're ready. 15 THE WITNESS: Could we take a few-minute break? 16 THE COURT: Yes. In fact, you didn't need to 17 sit there. When I'm on this, you don't have to sit 18 there. All right? 19 If this happens again, like if I get this sheet 20 out, you are free to get up and -- and travel 21 around, do whatever you want. 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: But we'll take a break. Since you 24 didn't know that, you have been sitting here all 25 this time. It is ten after. Ten minutes enough,
769 1 ma'am? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is fine. 3 THE COURT: Well, we'll take a 15-minute break 4 for my court reporter. 5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 6 ______________________________________ 7 THE COURT: Counsel, I'm looking at something 8 in obviously blue ink you handed to me, I don't care 9 because I would ignore your comments, but it looks 10 like this is your original. 11 MR. LIROT: I'll ask Mr. Dandar to look at it. 12 MR. DANDAR: May I look at it? I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: This is blue. This is blue. 14 MR. DANDAR: I'll get you another one. I'm 15 sorry. 16 MR. WEINBERG: What is it? 17 THE COURT: The thing he gave me, the petition 18 for Writ of Certiorari, had his notes on it. I 19 said, I can ignore those, but some are his original 20 notes. I assume he wanted it. 21 MR. DANDAR: Here is a clean copy. 22 THE COURT: All right. I was thumbing through 23 this motion, what was styled the defendant's motion 24 for rehearing en banc, which apparently was filed -- 25 I can't really tell, I guess if I look at the back I
770 1 can tell -- the 18th of April of 2002. 2 Just reading the beginning, and starting to 3 read the evidence to that time, was Mr. Minton 4 declaring he committed perjury, perjurious 5 affidavit, and on and on. When I say on and on, I 6 mean whatever else was in the hands of the Church at 7 that time was made known to the Second District. 8 Their order of the Court treats the rehearing 9 en banc as a motion for rehearing that is denied. 10 Therefore, it is pretty obvious to me, at least at 11 this point, the Second District means for their 12 order to have meaning and, therefore, I will give 13 you, Mr. Dandar, and your client, if that is 14 necessary, although I don't know what your client 15 would know about your expenditures or anything like 16 this, but based on the testimony I will give you an 17 order you may carry with you in the event this 18 becomes an issue in front of any other judge, 19 hearing officer, trial resolution judge or anything 20 of the sort. 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, it's -- there is a hearing 22 still pending in the federal court in Tampa by 23 Religious Technology Center with their judgment from 24 the federal court in Texas, trying to garnish my 25 bank accounts, depose me, and ask me all these
771 1 questions, that we brought to that Court's attention 2 the Second District Court opinion. 3 And last week we won that hearing, but they 4 filed a more -- more authority. So that is still 5 pending. I don't know if your order would have 6 effect in the federal court. 7 THE COURT: I'm sure they could care less. 8 However, I will give it to you and you may tote it 9 with you. 10 And what I'm really trying to avoid here is 11 the -- the fact there is a somewhat related case 12 being filed in another court. And I have agreed 13 that it's a separate cause of action. But -- but 14 it's close enough related where either I'll take it 15 over if I don't -- I mean, some of these 16 depositions, as I read it, disturbed me, too. 17 Because I can understand even why Mr. Minton thought 18 the Court was treating him poorly. He goes up 19 there, gets deposed 200 or 300 pages, then comes 20 down in this case and gets deposed for 200 or 300 21 pages. I can only speak to the depositions I have 22 read. 23 The same with the plaintiff in this case. This 24 lady and Mr. Minton, both of whom apparently know 25 very little about the wrongful death. And they get
772 1 deposed in both cases. 2 That should not happen. And I don't know who 3 their lawyers are, but somebody ought to be making a 4 motion to protect that. And as far as I know, the 5 only thing I have ever ruled on in the form of any 6 type of request in that regard is Mr. Minton's 7 taking the Fifth Amendment whether he waived the 8 privilege. And I wrestled with that for some time 9 and ruled that he had. 10 But other than that, I don't know that I have 11 ever seen anything filed on behalf of Ms. Liebreich 12 or Mr. Minton or Mr. Brooks or anything else. 13 What did you file? 14 MR. DANDAR: I asked you the stop the latest 15 round of 2002 when Mr. Moxon deposed Ms. Liebreich. 16 And you said yes, she can be deposed again. 17 THE COURT: Did you hand me all her 18 depositions? The deal is I have got to see it, you 19 have to tell me how many pages it is, what has been 20 asked -- 21 MR. DANDAR: You said if they asked the same 22 questions that they asked before, sanctions will be 23 asserted. 24 THE COURT: The problem is, and what I see 25 now -- and I'm going to tell some discovery panel
773 1 this, is what happens, and I forgot about this -- 2 unlike a criminal deposition, they ask a question, 3 the objection is made, but you can't stop the 4 deposition, you can't stop the witness from 5 answering. 6 So we can't have that. Just can't have it. I 7 mean, there is too much repetition being gone on 8 here. You cannot use the Court by filing somewhat 9 duplicitous lawsuits to depose the same witness two 10 times. 11 MR. MOXON: Just one comment, your Honor. I 12 know, in reading the transcript of Ms. Liebreich in 13 the other case, that the attorney taking her 14 deposition asked Mr. Dandar if he would stipulate 15 her prior depositions could be entered in. And he 16 said no. So -- 17 THE COURT: I don't remember reading that. 18 MR. MOXON: Yes. 19 THE COURT: I'm not saying it is not there 20 because, again, I read these and try to read these 21 carefully. But you can imagine, as long as these 22 depositions are, there are times I -- 23 MR. MOXON: Yes, so you get the point there. 24 THE COURT: The deal is as far as I'm 25 concerned, people like Mr. Minton, people like
774 1 Ms. Liebreich, these sort of witnesses have very 2 little information about the wrongful death case, 3 which I thought we were pursuing at the moment, 4 that, you know, frankly, if need be, I'll sit in on 5 the depositions. 6 I have read -- I have read about this 7 agreement. I mean, I'm looking here at -- I am 8 looking at Ms. Liebreich's book here of her 9 depositions, not nearly as long as Mr. Minton, and 10 I'm looking at one, two, three, four, five separate 11 depositions. And I'm looking at compressed 12 transcripts, four to a page, front and back on some 13 of them. I can't have somebody -- I read and read 14 and read -- I was trying to make some notes myself 15 on the agreement, I can't tell you how many -- ten 16 twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty pages, I had to 17 look at this. 18 Then, of course, when I see she tried to be 19 impeached from one little split of one -- I mean, I 20 can't imagine anything worse than that. 21 So it just ain't going to happen. You can't do 22 it. You can't use two separate lawsuits and go one 23 place and the other place. It just can't happen. 24 For impeachment purposes, counselor, you can 25 use any deposition any place for impeachment. You
775 1 cannot introduce it into evidence. 2 In other words -- well, I guess you can in a 3 civil case. 4 MR. MOXON: No -- 5 THE COURT: But I suspect plaintiff will be 6 here to testify. 7 MR. MOXON: No, I was just talking about the 8 deposition of Ms. Liebreich in another case. They 9 tried to say, look, let's introduce her testimony 10 from another case in this case and that will shorten 11 the deposition. Mr. Dandar said, "No, I don't want 12 to do this." 13 THE COURT: Well, I had said she was not to be 14 asked about things she had already testified about. 15 I see the objection made. The problem is there is 16 nothing that can be done at that point. 17 What I'm saying is here is the whole problem 18 with that, is the other lawyer can just say answer 19 the question, answer the question. In other words, 20 you can't stop the deposition. 21 So, consequently, even though the objection has 22 been made, there is nothing that can be done for the 23 witness to not require the witness to have to answer 24 the same questions thirty or forty different times. 25 I ought not to allow that to happen.
776 1 I apologize to Ms. Liebreich about that. And 2 if Mr. Minton comes in, I will apologize to him. I 3 think they have been mistreated by the discovery 4 process. And I'm not suggesting by you, Mr. Moxon, 5 or by you. I'm suggesting the various courts that 6 have separate proceedings going on don't really 7 realize what is happening in another proceeding. 8 I can't care less about what Judge Baird does. 9 He can't care less about what I do. But I think 10 what we are realizing is when you combine these 11 things, there are situations that the Court ought to 12 stop. Maybe I just didn't realize it. I do now. 13 As I said, having had the opportunity to read 14 Mr. Minton's many, many, mega, mega depositions, 15 frankly, he was treated unfairly by the courts, the 16 court's process. I should have stopped that. The 17 same is true with Ms. Liebreich. Too many 18 depositions. I'm not saying you, Mr. Moxon, because 19 Mr. Rosen, apparently, who is not a member of the 20 Florida Bar -- neither of these people are members 21 of the Florida Bar, taking these multi-depositions, 22 asking the same thing. I'm not going to allow it 23 anymore in this proceeding. 24 MR. MOXON: Okay. Maybe I didn't make myself 25 clear. I'm sorry --
777 1 THE COURT: Okay, you made yourself clear, 2 Mr. Moxon. And, I believe, so did I. And if I 3 didn't, I'll make myself clearer. But I suspect 4 that is all you really want to hear from me right 5 now about it. 6 I didn't like it. I didn't like having to read 7 it all. And I sure didn't like having to read the 8 same thing over and over and over. And I rather 9 suspect you-all have copies of those other 10 depositions when you were asking your questions. 11 And you don't want to hear from me any more. I made 12 myself clear. 13 All right? 14 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: With that, you may continue. 16 MR. LIROT: Thank you very much, your Honor. 17 Judge, this morning Mr. Fugate presented us 18 with a very -- I'll say probably about an 8- to 19 10-inch stack of papers which I believe he 20 represented were the documents presented to 21 Ms. Brooks that she had reviewed in an effort to 22 produce her affidavit. 23 Is that what I understand this to be? 24 MR. FUGATE: What we have produced are the 25 documents that were provided to both Ms. Brooks and
778 1 to Mr. Minton, which was the request to produce by 2 you. And that is what you have got there. Those 3 are copies, I should say, of the documents that were 4 produced. 5 MR. LIROT: All right. And they are combined 6 so we don't know which documents were produced 7 specifically to Ms. Brooks'? 8 MR. DANDAR: These are Brooks' only. 9 MR. LIROT: That is not what he just said. 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, there is a separate -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, have you taken them apart? 12 I don't know -- 13 14 MS. WEST: Yes, that is one section. That is 15 another. 16 MR. LIROT: I guess my question to you is we 17 kept them basically separated from how they were 18 given to us. Was one folio the documents given to 19 Ms. Brooks, and one folio the documents given to 20 Mr. Minton? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. These are the Minton 22 documents here. 23 MR. LIROT: We don't know. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, all I know, we gave 25 them -- the request to produce, I gave them all of
779 1 the documents. And I don't know how they have been 2 divided out. That is the only thing I'm hesitating 3 about answering. I have given them every document 4 that I'm aware of that was a -- a copy of that was 5 given to Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton. Are you 6 saying -- 7 MR. LIROT: My question -- 8 THE COURT: What his question is does he have 9 one stack given to Ms. Brooks and one to Mr. Minton? 10 If not, would you be good enough to separate them 11 out for him. I think that is what he's saying. 12 MR. LIROT: That is exactly correct. 13 MS. WEST: Not mixed? 14 THE COURT: Maybe if you take a look, you'll be 15 able to tell us. 16 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I can say -- 17 MR. DANDAR: I can say -- I can say Mr. Fugate, 18 when he handed me the documents this morning, said 19 the smaller one was the Minton documents -- 20 MR. FUGATE: Brooks. 21 THE COURT: And the thicker one was the -- 22 was Brooks? 23 MR. MOXON: That is not right. 24 MR. DANDAR: Was it backwards? 25 MR. MOXON: Neither way. They were all given
780 1 together for both of them. 2 MR. DANDAR: Then they are all mixed up. One 3 is highlighted. The small pack is not highlighted. 4 The big pack has highlighting on it. 5 THE COURT: Well, the testimony, I suppose, was 6 hers were highlighted. So maybe that is what was 7 given to her, if it is highlighted. 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, we'll be glad to go through 9 them and look at them and re- -- I guess, 10 reconstruct which is which. But for the sake of the 11 record those are copies of all of the documents that 12 reflect both document requests. And we'll go back 13 through and try to separate them out again -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. FUGATE: -- if that is what we're being 16 asked to do. 17 THE COURT: Now then, you stated about -- you 18 were talking about 8 inches. What is it you wanted 19 to tell me? 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, our questions were about 21 what documents Ms. Brooks received and why she felt 22 she needed to go through these to set the record 23 straight. Those were the lines of questions we had 24 asked. 25 In response, they have given us, apparently, a
781 1 stack of both what was given to Ms. Brooks and 2 Mr. Minton. I don't want to waste any more of the 3 court time than I have to, asking her -- 4 THE COURT: You don't ever waste court time. 5 As I said, this is an important allegation. That is 6 why I have been as patient as I have, which I assume 7 everybody would know I have been very patient in 8 this proceeding because it's important. 9 I understand what you're saying. If you could 10 at some point in time -- I think what he needs so he 11 can properly cross-examine, perhaps, what did she 12 have versus what did he have, in two separate 13 stacks, if you can do that. 14 MR. FUGATE: Okay, Judge. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I might even be able to save 16 more time. If I just go through this with 17 Ms. Brooks as quickly as possible, if she doesn't 18 remember going through it, then I'll go by her 19 testimony. 20 THE COURT: Okay. See if you can do something 21 without those documents. And at lunch time -- and 22 she just indicated to me her lawyer would know what 23 she had. Or maybe you can hand them to her, ask her 24 to look at them. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Some are the depositions of Stacy
782 1 Brooks. And, obviously, that would be her 2 testimony. And some of it would be the testimony of 3 Robert Minton. And it would not be. So we're 4 talking about her testimony. I understand a lot is 5 deposition testimony. It would be on the -- 6 THE COURT: I don't know -- I mean, I don't 7 know if you are aware of what she looked at, if you 8 were there or not. 9 MR. McGOWAN: Some of it. 10 THE COURT: But I know there was some testimony 11 that you may not have been there for part of it, so 12 I really think she'll have to be the one that tells 13 us what all she saw. 14 MR. LIROT: Then, Judge, what we'll do, we'll 15 hold off until after the break, go through it with 16 Mr. McGowan, and I'll pick it up where I left off. 17 THE COURT: That sounds good. 18 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 19 _____________________________________ 20 STACY BROOKS, 21 the witness herein, having been previously sworn on oath, 22 was examined and testified as follows: 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION RESUMED 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, I believe last week you were
783 1 testifying as to some of the meetings you held. And I 2 believe you testified to a March 28 and March 29 meeting, 3 and also some meetings in early April where you were 4 presented with a stack of documents. 5 Just to help us out, do you recall how thick the 6 stack of documents was that you were presented with to go 7 over? 8 A The only time I was presented with a stack, that I 9 recall, is the day that Mr. Fugate and my attorney and I 10 received a stack of documents from Mr. Fugate. 11 Q Do you remember what date that was? 12 A Mmm, I believe last Tuesday Mr. Fugate gave you a 13 letter dated April 15th. And in my own memory, I don't -- I 14 couldn't tell you a date. But I believe that that letter 15 was given to -- the letter was created the day of that 16 meeting, I believe. 17 Q So that the date of April 15 on the letter is the 18 day you got the documents from Mr. Fugate? 19 A As I understood it, that letter was -- was for the 20 purpose of that meeting, being able to happen that day. 21 Q All right. Had you gotten any documents from 22 anybody with the Church of Scientology or their counsel or 23 anybody, what I'll say, in a position adverse to the estate, 24 prior to April 15th? 25 A I had seen some, but I had not received any. No.
784 1 Q Where had you seen some of those documents? 2 A At Mr. Pope's office. 3 Q Do you remember what date that was? 4 A No. 5 Q Was that the Sunday meeting? Could that have been 6 an April 6th meeting? 7 MR. DANDAR: Saturday. 8 A Mmm, I -- I don't recall whether there were any -- 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Well, I tell you what. Let me just tell you what 11 I understand the meetings to be, and maybe you can help me. 12 I'll ask you. Give me, again, the sequence of the meetings. 13 You had a meeting on March 28 in New York. 14 Correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And that was a relatively short meeting? 17 A No. That was a lengthy meeting. 18 Q All right. Then you had a meeting on March 29 in 19 New York? 20 A Yes. 21 Q That was the shorter meeting? 22 A Yes. 23 Q All right. What was the next meeting? Was that 24 in Florida? 25 A Yes.
785 1 Q All right. Do you remember when that meeting was? 2 A That was on Saturday, April 6, I believe. 3 Q All right. And the next meeting after that was 4 when? 5 A I believe there was a meeting on the Sunday, but, 6 you see, for most of this -- well, for that -- you know, 7 there were some preparation for Mr. Minton that didn't 8 really involve me very much. So I think it would be -- 9 Mr. Minton would be able to tell you more about it than I 10 would. 11 Q All right. But on the 7th -- and as I understand 12 it, Mr. Minton was to be before Judge Schaeffer on the 8th? 13 That was the contempt hearing? 14 A No. Judge Baird, on the 9th. 15 Q Judge Baird, on the 9th? 16 THE COURT: I think our hearing was on the 5th. 17 MR. FUGATE: It was on the 5th. 18 A This was the day before. That is how come we went 19 and talked to him. 20 MR. FUGATE: Or the 4th. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q All right. So on Sunday, the 7th, you met. And 23 was that to go over any documents, was that to prepare any 24 affidavits, or -- 25 A No -- sorry.
786 1 Q -- just to go over Mr. Minton's testimony in front 2 of Judge Baird? 3 A No, it wasn't to go over his testimony, per se. 4 But it was primarily speaking to him about his -- the 5 information that he wanted to recant. And so not involving 6 me very much. 7 Q All right. Were any documents presented to you 8 that day on the 7th? 9 A Not that I recall. 10 Q Were any documents given to Mr. Minton on the 7th? 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q Who was in attendance on April 7th? And this is a 13 day or two before Judge Baird's contempt hearing. Right? 14 A Yes. And the day before his -- Mr. Minton's 15 deposition. 16 Q All right. So who was in attendance at a meeting 17 on the 7th? 18 A I believe Mr. Rinder. Perhaps Mr. Howie. I don't 19 recall. I believe Mr. Jonas didn't arrive until the morning 20 of the next day, on Monday. 21 And so Mr. Howie may have been there that day. I 22 don't remember. I know he was there the next morning with 23 Mr. Jonas, before the deposition, preparing Mr. Minton for 24 his deposition. 25 Q Okay. Why was Mr. Rinder in attendance on the
787 1 7th? 2 A Why? 3 Q Yes. 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Did he participate in the meeting? 6 A Well, yes. Of course, if he was there. 7 Q All right. He was there. In what way? 8 A In what way? Mmm -- 9 Q Did he say anything? Did he say anything at the 10 meeting? 11 A Yes. I think primarily he was there for the 12 purpose of providing whatever transcripts or other -- or 13 other documents Mr. Minton needed in order to remember what 14 he had already testified about. 15 Q Why would Mr. Rinder have any transcripts or any 16 documents? 17 A Well, Mr. Rinder himself didn't. But he was able 18 to ask the paralegals of the Church to pull whatever 19 documents he needed to have pulled. 20 Q Well, weren't -- weren't attorneys for the Church 21 there? 22 A Ms. Yingling may have been there. I don't recall. 23 Q Anybody else at the meeting? 24 A Not that I remember. 25 Q Okay. I guess my question is is Mr. Rinder an
788 1 attorney? 2 A No. 3 Q Does he represent the Church? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. In what way? 6 A Well, he's the Church representative. 7 Q Okay. In what way? I mean, I asked the question. 8 THE COURT: I mean, are you asking what his 9 title is in the Church? Or what? 10 MR. LIROT: Sure. 11 A I don't know what his title is. But he -- I mean, 12 the whole church can't meet with me or Mr. Minton. So 13 Mr. Rinder is the representative. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Okay. Is he an authority figure in the Church? 16 Does he make decisions on litigation policies? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Well, I guess my question -- you have known him 19 for a long time. Right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And he participated with you in adversity in a lot 22 of prior legal actions. Is that correct? 23 A What do you mean, in adversity? 24 Q Well, he was the one, in the '94 declaration, 25 where he came and said, "Here, sign this declaration," and
789 1 obviously the declaration speaks for itself, "Sign this and 2 tell us everything you told this other attorney was a lie," 3 and then you filed a subsequent declaration saying, "These 4 guys are putting pressure on me. They are offering me 5 money." 6 It was Mr. Rinder who was describing that -- 7 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just object to the 8 testimony. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. The declaration will 10 speak for itself, whatever she said in the 11 declaration. I don't think -- you are not saying it 12 exactly as she did. 13 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, you remember the declaration I'm talking 16 about, don't you? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you were in an adverse position to Mr. Rinder 19 at that point in time. Correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And now we've -- we bring it up to April 7th of 22 2002. And now Mr. Rinder is helping you? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. In what way? 25 A As I just testified, he was providing documents if
790 1 Mr. Minton asked for a document, such as a prior deposition 2 and what his testimony had been earlier. 3 Q So let me get this straight. Mr. Minton is asking 4 for specific documents so he can set the record straight. 5 Is that correct? 6 A No. 7 Q All right. So he's just being presented with 8 documents? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. Tell me what happened. 11 A Okay. Mr. Minton had talked about several issues 12 in which his testimony hadn't been accurate. And he wanted 13 to see some of the things that he had said earlier about 14 those subjects. 15 Q Okay. And that was on the 7th? Correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And the Church just coincidentally had all of 18 these documents there to show him where he had allegedly not 19 been truthful in prior testimony? 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. Did he make the request before that? 22 A No. 23 Q Well, how is it the Church shows up on the 7th and 24 they've got a box of -- I guess is it earmarked? Was it 25 highlighted? Were these documents highlighted on April 7?
791 1 A Mr. Lirot, I didn't say they showed up with a box. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. 3 A I didn't say they showed up with a box. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Okay. What did they show up with? 6 A Mmm, with -- with -- they showed up with 7 themselves. 8 Q On the 7th? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And we have documents changing hands. Correct? 11 A Yes. But he -- yes. 12 Q Okay. How do the documents get in the hands of 13 Mr. Rinder so that he can be helpful? 14 A As I said, he would request a document from 15 another person in the Church who had access to the files. 16 Q All right. And those were already in the law 17 office where you went to for the meeting? 18 A I don't know. 19 THE COURT: Who was this other person? Do you 20 know? 21 THE WITNESS: I'm not really sure. 22 THE COURT: Some -- some person who was not at 23 the meeting? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I believe there are a 25 number of persons who have access to their legal
792 1 files. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Do you see any of those people in the courtroom 4 today? 5 A I don't recall who was there in that particular 6 meeting, in other words, who was -- who brought a document 7 or not. But someone did. 8 Q Okay. Let me understand this. You are there. 9 This is April 7th. You are there. Mr. Minton is there. 10 Mr. Rinder is there. Ms. Yingling is there. And someone to 11 pull papers is there. 12 A As I said, someone -- he would make a call and 13 say, you know, can you find this, that or whatever. Then 14 someone would bring something, as I recall. 15 Q Is this in Mr. Pope's office that this meeting was 16 held? 17 A I believe it was in a library there. 18 Q A library in Mr. Pope's office? 19 A Yes. 20 Q All right. And Mr. Rinder is there, making calls 21 for documents, to whom? Do you know? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q But somebody is showing up with documents? 24 A Mmm, as I recall, some documents were brought in. 25 Q Okay. And do you know if the people bringing in
793 1 the documents were with Mr. Pope's office? 2 A No. They were with the Church. 3 Q Were they there at Mr. Pope's office? Or were 4 they bringing documents over from the Church to Mr. Pope's 5 office? 6 A I can tell you what I assume. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: You want me to? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 A I assume that they were bringing them from Church 11 offices. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Okay. 14 A But I don't know. 15 Q Well, I guess my question is did it take five or 16 ten minutes to get documents after the calls were made? 17 A I don't really know. I mean, I don't know how 18 long it took. 19 Q Thank you. Who was it that identified what 20 documents were necessary to bring over? 21 A Well, as I recall, Mr. Minton was talking about -- 22 Mr. Minton would talk about a particular subject, and if he 23 wanted to have -- if he wanted to look at what he had said 24 earlier on that subject, then he would ask for that. 25 Q Mr. Minton --
794 1 THE COURT: I'm kind of confused. And I guess 2 the reason I'm kind of confused, because when I want 3 something regarding this case, these lawyers right 4 here are able just to whip it right out and give it 5 to me. It's amazing, because they are very good. I 6 don't know how in the world they can keep it 7 straight, I can't keep my own files in my office 8 straight. But they can. 9 And so I would presume Mr. Fugate could, and 10 Mr. Moxon could, and probably the rest could. 11 But -- they seem to be able to. Mr. Weinberg 12 probably could. He's shaking his head he could not. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I just ask one of them back 14 here. 15 THE COURT: Yes. I haven't seen Mr. Rinder in 16 here. I don't know if he has been here. I don't 17 know Mr. Rinder. I imagine he has been here several 18 times. But if he has, I don't recognize him. 19 But I don't know how -- how he would -- I mean, 20 he's not a lawyer. Was there some thought, keep the 21 lawyers in this case out? They would be the ones 22 most likely to know exactly where everything was. 23 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. But this process 24 was kind of new. Mr. Minton felt comfortable 25 talking to Mr. Rinder. It was obviously a fairly
795 1 awkward situation -- 2 THE COURT: Well, that is -- 3 THE WITNESS: -- under the circumstances. 4 THE COURT: That is who you-all agreed to meet 5 with, was Mr. Rinder, Ms. Yingling -- 6 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said earlier, 7 Mr. Minton and I had worked with Mr. Rinder earlier 8 on a settlement of another case, the FACTNet case. 9 So Mr. Minton was familiar with Mr. Rinder. I'm 10 putting thoughts in Mr. Minton's head, but I believe 11 that he probably thought that he would feel as 12 comfortable as possible dealing with Mr. Rinder. 13 That is my assumption. 14 THE COURT: My recollection of your testimony, 15 when you wanted to make this global settlement, as 16 you have described it, you called Mr. Rinder. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is correct. 18 THE COURT: So this was the person that you 19 expected you -- Mr. Minton expected to deal with -- 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 THE COURT: -- to make happen whatever it was 22 you wanted to have happen. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. And Mr. Minton -- well, 24 yes. 25 THE COURT: That is your -- that is it, he felt
796 1 comfortable with him, you assume, and that is why he 2 was there? 3 THE WITNESS: I believe so, your Honor. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Do you know that Mr. Rinder is the head of OSA 6 International? 7 A I know he was, but -- I'm not sure if he is right 8 now or not, but I do know he has been. 9 Q Do you have any information to show he has been 10 replaced in that position? 11 A Mr. Lirot, I'm not really privy to Scientology's 12 job positions. 13 Q Now, as I understand it, you and Mr. Minton want 14 to set the record straight as far as testimony that you have 15 given in depositions. Correct? 16 A Mmm, yes. 17 Q All right. Where else could you have perjured 18 yourself? 19 A Mmm, well, I only hesitate because it was an issue 20 of deposition testimony as well as discovery. 21 Q And affidavits? 22 A No. 23 Q You hadn't signed any affidavits at that point in 24 time? 25 A Ever?
797 1 Q I don't know. I'm asking you if you remember. 2 This is April 7, 2002. 3 A Well, I have done a number of affidavits and 4 declarations in my capacity as -- as a consultant or expert. 5 But as far as -- 6 THE COURT: Let me help you out here, ma'am. I 7 have this on my pink sheet, which is my next sheet 8 to go over with you-all. 9 Number 23 on my list, I want a copy of all 10 affidavits provided by Stacy Brooks in this case 11 except the two recanting affidavits. 12 There are at least three. One, the 2/98 13 affidavit in opposition to a motion concerning 14 confidentiality of parishioners' counseling records. 15 2 and 3, File 1099 to support plaintiff's 16 motion to amend complaint. 17 And I have got "(must have been to file fifth 18 amended complaint.)" 19 THE WITNESS: What was the date on that one? 20 THE COURT: Again, I'm going through lots and 21 lots of stuff, so I could be all wet on this, but as 22 best I could tell, it looks like there were two 23 affidavits perhaps filed in support of the 24 plaintiff's motion to amend their complaint. And 25 somewhere I picked up two dates. Like Numbers 2 and
798 1 3 were filed in October of '99, and then I have, "To 2 support defendant's motion to amend complaint." And 3 I have "(must have been to file fifth amended 4 complaint since the fourth was filed before then.)" 5 MR. DANDAR: You are correct. 6 THE COURT: I'm doing the best I can to go 7 through a lot of this stuff and make sense of that. 8 MR. DANDAR: You are right. 9 THE COURT: Is that right? 10 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 11 THE COURT: So I don't know if she filed more 12 than that, but those are the three I came up with. 13 MR. DANDAR: Those are from two prior cases, 14 not this case. 15 THE COURT: But they were filed here. 16 MR. DANDAR: But they were filed here. Yes. 17 THE COURT: Maybe she didn't realize they were 18 filed here. 19 MR. DANDAR: She signed an affidavit here to 20 say here are the other two. 21 THE COURT: Okay. So those affidavits, I don't 22 know if you-all have them, who has them, but I would 23 like to see them. 24 MR. DANDAR: Are they here? 25 THE COURT: You don't need to pull them out
799 1 right here, either side. I mean, I really 2 appreciate it but, I mean, I can take a break 3 occasionally and not have to read. 4 MR. FUGATE: We'll put it on this list. 5 THE COURT: Put it on this list. By the time 6 we're done, we might have more. At some point in 7 time, I think it might be important for me to read 8 the affidavits. And I think Ms. Brooks might need 9 to look at them and determine if they are true or 10 not if they are filed in this case. 11 I don't know what they said, so -- I haven't 12 heard her recant whatever is in there, so I'm 13 assuming they are true. But I don't know because I 14 have not seen them. And I would have but when I 15 started looking for them, I couldn't find them. 16 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 17 THE COURT: Frankly, maybe there are things she 18 was recanting, but I think most of the things she 19 was recanting were things, if I couldn't find them, 20 I asked you-all about them. 21 I remember there was something on Mr. Minton's 22 about some -- about something I had never heard of 23 before. And you all produced a copy to me. 24 I don't recall I had that problem with 25 Ms. Brooks. I knew what she was talking about.
800 1 MR. LIROT: Yes. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Ms. Brooks, you said that you and Mr. Minton were 4 comfortable with Mr. Rinder. Weren't there attorneys at the 5 other meetings before the 7th? 6 A Mmm, the meetings on the 28th and 29th? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Is that what you mean? 9 Q Yes. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Were there any meetings between -- do we go from 12 the 29th, all of the way up to the 6th, which was the 13 Saturday meeting? Were there any meetings between the 29th 14 and 6th? 15 A Well, there were a number of meetings. But, with 16 anybody? I mean, with who? What meetings are you asking me 17 about? 18 Q Any meeting related in any way to a resolution of 19 this case or any other case involving Mr. Minton, you, 20 anything you have done in the Church of Scientology? 21 A No. 22 Q So we go from the 28th, the 29th, up to the 6th, 23 which is a Saturday. 24 What happened between the 29th and the 6th, I 25 guess I'll ask?
801 1 A I think we covered this pretty extensively 2 earlier, but I'll tell you again. 3 We were engaged in intensive preparation for the 4 order to show cause hearing before Judge Schaeffer that was 5 scheduled for, I guess it was, Friday, April 5th. 6 Q Okay. 7 A And also preparing for the order to show cause 8 hearing before Judge Baird which was scheduled for the 9th. 9 Q All right. So from -- 10 A And -- 11 Q I'm sorry. Finish. 12 A And as I recall, there were a number of telephone 13 conferences concerning those preparations, and quite a bit 14 of other kinds of preparation for them. 15 Q Okay. So from the 29th to the 6th, you were 16 engaging in extensive preparation. 17 Where were you on the 30th, let's say, of March? 18 A Mmm, I -- I may have been in New Hampshire. At 19 some point, we came down to Florida, I believe. I don't 20 remember when during that time. 21 Q All right. All these phone calls and all of the 22 preparation, you were clearly here on the 5th because you 23 were in front of Judge Schaeffer, correct? That was that 24 Friday? 25 A Yes.
802 1 Q Were you here on the 4th? 2 A Mmm -- 3 THE COURT: Sometimes if you don't remember, 4 you are allowed to say that. 5 A I don't remember. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: There you go. I couldn't tell you 8 where I was, either, frankly, on the 4th. If I'm in 9 Court -- I remember the 5th I had a hearing, but -- 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Between the 29th and the 4th, in all this 12 preparation, who did you speak to, to prepare for these 13 hearings that you testified were coming up, Judge 14 Schaeffer's and Judge Baird's? 15 A Well, primarily it was Mr. Minton speaking. But 16 it was to Mr. Howie, Mr. Jonas, primarily. 17 Q Primarily. Who else? 18 A Me. 19 THE COURT: Are you speaking about who 20 Mr. Minton was talking to now? Is that what your 21 question was? 22 MR. LIROT: She apparently was privy to these 23 conversations 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. LIROT: I'm most concerned --
803 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Were you privy to everything Mr. Minton did to get 3 prepared for these upcoming hearings? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Were you privy to some of the things Mr. Minton 6 did to prepare for the upcoming hearings? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Can you tell us about that? 9 A As I was saying, he spoke to Mr. Howie and 10 Mr. Jonas. 11 Q All right. Primarily. That means that -- that 12 certainly suggests there were other people he spoke to. And 13 you said you. Were there any other people? 14 A No. 15 Q Did he speak to -- 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q All right. So nobody associated with the Church 18 talked to him, to your knowledge, between the 29th and the 19 4th? 20 THE COURT: Who is this person that keeps 21 coming in? I can't really see him over there. 22 MR. MOXON: He works for us over there. 23 THE COURT: Hello. 24 A I don't remember what your question was, sir. 25
804 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q I'm trying to find out what conversations you had 3 to prepare for the contempt hearing on the 5th and the 4 hearing in front of Judge Baird. So far I have the 29th. 5 You testified about the 29th. I'm trying to fill in the gap 6 between the 29th and then Mr. Minton testifying here, I 7 believe, or at least appearing -- 8 MR. LIROT: I wasn't here that day, Judge. 9 THE COURT: He didn't have to testify because I 10 found him not guilty, in effect, at the end of the 11 Church's case, if you want to call it that, the end 12 of their presentation. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q And I think your testimony was it was a miracle 16 and you were very happy about Judge Schaeffer not finding 17 Mr. Minton in contempt. 18 A I was very happy about that. 19 Q All right. So prior to that, what preparation was 20 made -- and if you have already answered this I won't ask it 21 again -- but I'm trying to find out what exactly happened 22 between the 29th and 4th of April? 23 A Well, I have already answered it so you don't need 24 to ask me again. 25 Q There are no other phone calls, no other meetings,
805 1 nothing -- 2 THE COURT: Wait a second. We can't have that. 3 The deal is unless your lawyer objects and it is 4 sustained, he can ask you again. 5 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, I'm just 6 responding he said, if you have already answered, 7 don't answer it again. So I'm telling him I have 8 answered it so he doesn't need to ask it again. 9 THE COURT: Oh, all right. 10 MR. LIROT: I have been put in my place, Judge. 11 THE WITNESS: I didn't mean to be rude. 12 THE COURT: I didn't hear that part of his 13 question. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q We are now up to the 6th. You talked about your 16 meetings on the 6th. 17 Now we're talking about on the 7th. How many 18 trips were made on April 7 to bring documents for Mr. Minton 19 to look at? 20 A I really don't remember. Perhaps several. I'm 21 not really sure. 22 Q More than two? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q All right. How long was the meeting on April 7 25 where -- and correct me if I'm wrong, as I understand it,
806 1 you are not looking at any documents. This is all a day 2 that is focused solely on Mr. Minton. This is April 7th? 3 A Well, this is the best of my recollection. The 4 attention was primarily on Mr. Minton because of the 5 upcoming hearing. I wasn't having a hearing, so I was 6 pretty much bowing to Mr. Minton's concerns about the 7 hearing coming up. 8 What I was privy to was I -- Mmm, basically what I 9 have told you. I don't really remember any more detail than 10 that. He was going over some documents. He was getting 11 ready. He was talking about the things that he had 12 testified about that were untrue. I wasn't there for all of 13 it, so that is pretty much what I can tell you. 14 Q You weren't there for the entire meeting on the 15 7th? 16 A Well, I mean, I was going in and out. And like I 17 said, it wasn't -- the focus wasn't really on me, so -- 18 Q Okay. 19 THE COURT: Was Mr. Minton's lawyer there? 20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I am pretty sure 21 Mr. Jonas didn't get there until the next morning. 22 I don't recall if Mr. Howie was there. I think 23 he might have been. I know Mr. Minton spoke to him 24 by phone. 25 THE COURT: I obviously didn't make myself very
807 1 clear, either. I don't understand it. This was a 2 hearing in front of Judge Baird. So I was using my 3 lawyers because I know how good they are here. I 4 have to assume the Church's lawyers are equally good 5 there. 6 So we have Mr. Pope, whom I personally know, 7 who is a fine lawyer. 8 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Pope. Mr. Rosen -- 9 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen, who is not a member of 10 the Florida Bar, and who I don't know. 11 MR. FUGATE: Right. 12 THE COURT: Except I know he does try to 13 introduce depositions for people who aren't even 14 there, little snippets of testimony -- 15 MR. FUGATE: I heard that. 16 THE COURT: -- and that, I know, is improper. 17 However, those two folks are the people that 18 are -- are presuming some lawyers will prepare him 19 for whatever he will -- for whatever will happen. 20 What does Mr. Rinder know about what is to be 21 done in front of Judge Baird? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this was -- my 23 understanding was that this was more -- this was 24 more something that Mr. Minton was initiating doing, 25 you know. I'm sure Mr. Rinder was glad that he was
808 1 doing it. But it wasn't something that was being 2 organized by Church attorneys. 3 And Mr. Rosen never met with Mr. Minton in 4 preparation for this, that I know of. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen was in New York? 6 THE WITNESS: No. I'm talking about on this 7 April 7th. 8 THE COURT: Oh. 9 THE WITNESS: Because he was the attorney that 10 was -- that was at the hearing. 11 THE COURT: But he was present in New York? 12 THE WITNESS: He was present in New York, yes, 13 your Honor. 14 THE COURT: We'll hear from him, I guess, about 15 that. 16 MR. LIROT: Yes. 17 THE COURT: If he was there, he will have to 18 come in and testify, which is, I assume, one of the 19 reasons why the lawyers weren't there, which I can't 20 seem to get that from this witness. I don't know if 21 that is true or not. Maybe you just don't know. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't really know. 23 THE COURT: Okay. There you go. Just move on. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q All right. So you were in and out. How long did
809 1 the meeting last with Mr. Minton? 2 A I really don't remember. Mr. Minton? Probably 3 several hours, but -- 4 Q All right. What possibly could Mr. Minton have 5 had to do except look at his old depositions? What else 6 would he be worried about? 7 A I don't know. I mean, some of these questions 8 would be better asked of him. You are asking me for what 9 was going on in his head, and I can't really tell you that. 10 THE COURT: Counselor, I agree with that. 11 Let's let Mr. Minton answer what -- 12 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: -- why Mr. Minton -- let's let him 14 respond to that. 15 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. All right. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q But just for the record, you are instrumental in 18 trying to help Mr. Minton reach this global settlement. 19 Right? 20 A Mmm, well, I would say that I was encouraging him 21 to do so. 22 Q Because I think your earlier testimony is the guy 23 is going crazy from all of this stuff, and that was one 24 of -- your primary inspiration. Right? 25 THE COURT: Well, now, I see Mr. Fugate getting
810 1 ready to jump up here. That isn't exactly what she 2 said here, I don't think. 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I mischaracterized the 4 evidence, I apologize. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q He was extremely distraught, all these actions are 7 having a heavy bearing on him, correct? 8 A Mmm, I think my testimony was that he was 9 extremely concerned about, Mmm, the perjury he already 10 committed on Mr. Dandar's behalf, and that he was very 11 concerned about having to face Judge Schaeffer and Judge 12 Baird in contempt hearings, and extremely concerned about 13 what the outcome of those hearings were going to be. So -- 14 THE COURT: She also said he was distraught. 15 But I know what she said and I heard it. And you'll 16 have it written on a piece of paper to refer to. So 17 she doesn't need to repeat herself so many times. 18 MR. LIROT: I will move on, Judge. 19 THE COURT: I don't mean to minimize what you 20 need to do and what they need to do. But I don't 21 need to hear it any more than I needed to read those 22 depositions four, five -- the same thing four, five 23 times. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q So on April 7, this is a Sunday, Mr. Minton's
811 1 deposition was to take place the next day, is that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And his attorneys aren't there on the 7th to help 4 him get ready for deposition testimony. Is that correct? 5 A Mmm, as I said, I don't recall if he got together 6 with Mr. Howie that day or not. He may have. I just don't 7 recall. 8 Q All right. 9 A I know he was speaking to Mr. Howie that day, for 10 sure. 11 Q All right. After this meeting in Mr. Pope's 12 library was over, what did you do next? 13 A I think we had dinner. 14 Q All right. Who went to dinner with you? 15 A Mr. Minton. 16 Q All right. Anybody else? Did you invite anybody 17 else to dinner? 18 A I don't believe so. 19 Q Did you call Jesse Prince that day? 20 A Mmm, I don't remember. 21 Q All right. Did you -- did you personally call 22 Jesse Prince that day? 23 THE COURT: She just said she didn't know. 24 MR. LIROT: Fair enough, Judge. 25 THE COURT: That could mean she did or she
812 1 didn't. And if Mr. Prince is going to testify, then 2 I guess if he will remember, he can tell us, and 3 that will be the answer. So she doesn't know. So 4 get the answer, move on. 5 MR. LIROT: Very good. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q The next day was Mr. Minton's deposition. Do you 8 remember that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you take him to his deposition? 11 A I think he took me. 12 Q Okay. But you were in attendance. Is that 13 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Where did that deposition take place? 16 A In -- 17 THE COURT: This is on the 8th? 18 MR. LIROT: This is on the 8th now, Judge. 19 THE COURT: I have to ask you-all a question 20 about that. I got from Mr. Minton's deposition -- I 21 kind of expected to see a lot of the stuff we were 22 hearing about here in that deposition. I didn't. 23 It's a fairly short deposition. 24 Is that accurate? Do -- I guess I have it all. 25 Just all this stuff wasn't gone into at that
813 1 deposition. Is that true? 2 MR. FUGATE: I believe that is so, Judge. I'm 3 not sure what you have, but I'll look at that over 4 the lunch hour, too. 5 I think it was an abbreviated deposition 6 because there was a question asked and they 7 terminated it and went to the hearing the next day, 8 if I am reading the same one. 9 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to tell you that 10 what I have been given -- 11 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. But I'll just tell you, so 13 you can look and tell me if it's wrong. I have got 14 a deposition of Mr. Minton that is only 120 pages. 15 That is -- when I say only 120 pages, that is 16 probably the longest deposition I ever took in my 17 life. However, in this particular case, that is 18 extraordinarily short. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Is that on the 8th? 20 THE COURT: It is on the 8th. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Is that in the breach case? 22 THE COURT: Yes. And this time I get six pages 23 to a page. But it's -- and I show a court 24 reporter's signature at the end. So as I said, I 25 read that one, thinking, okay, this will be the time
814 1 when I'll see what this is all about. And, frankly, 2 there wasn't a whole lot in there that I recall 3 about the agreement, this and that. 4 MR. DANDAR: Nothing about the agreement. 5 MR. McGOWAN: Judge, I was at that deposition. 6 And that is what -- very little happened at that 7 deposition. There were a lot of breaks. 8 THE COURT: And a very small deposition. 9 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, then I won't look because 11 I'm assuming -- 12 THE COURT: You don't have to look. I mean, 13 when I say small, let me just say the one before 14 that, I see 648 pages. So you can understand when I 15 say I think Mr. Minton is owed an apology, that is 16 one deposition, and I have got a book this thick. A 17 couple inches. And there are four and six pages to 18 a page, front and back. 19 That shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry it 20 happened. I don't think he's owed an apology for 21 having committed perjury in any way, shape or form, 22 but I think the judges of this circuit should not 23 allow the courts to be used to haul somebody in in 24 in a case, give those type of depositions, in two 25 cases, over and over. And it won't happen any more,
815 1 that I'm aware of. So -- so when I said it was 2 small, you do understand -- 3 MR. FUGATE: Relatively speaking. 4 THE COURT: -- relatively speaking, it was a 5 short deposition. 6 MR. FUGATE: I have got it, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q So April 8, Mr. Minton is giving his deposition 9 testimony. And do you know why the deposition was cut off? 10 A Mmm, as I recall, it ended close to five o'clock. 11 I believe that was the day Mr. Rosen complained about having 12 very bad allergies and not knowing how long he was going to 13 go on. I think that was the day that happened. 14 Q Now, did any of the documents that you prepared or 15 that were brought to Mr. Pope's office on the 7th -- did any 16 of those come out during Mr. Minton's deposition on the 8th? 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, counselor, what was your 18 question again? 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Did any of the documents that were prepared and 21 gone over on April 7th -- were those presented or made a 22 part of the deposition on the 8th? 23 A Well, I'm not aware of any documents having been 24 prepared that day. I don't think I said they were. And I 25 don't believe that any of Mr. Minton's prior testimony was
816 1 brought up that day, not that I recall. 2 Q Maybe I neglected to ask, what was brought over on 3 the 7th? Somebody made many trips bringing documents? 4 THE COURT: She didn't say many trips, 5 counselor. Now, I can't have that here. This is 6 the kinds of stuff I saw happen in the other. We 7 can't have that. 8 MR. LIROT: I believe her testimony was several 9 trips. 10 THE COURT: I think she said two. Maybe she 11 said -- I didn't write it down because, to me, it 12 didn't matter. 13 MR. LIROT: I said two. She said several. 14 THE COURT: Well, several isn't many. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q All right, during the several trips, do you know 17 what was brought over to Mr. Minton to go over? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Did you go over any of the documents with him? 20 A Not that I recall. 21 Q Well, what were you doing during the meeting? 22 A I was sitting there. 23 Q Just not participating at all? 24 A I don't recall that I was participating very much. 25 I was with Mr. Minton. He wanted me there. And I was
817 1 there. 2 Q And you weren't looking over his shoulder to see 3 what they were bringing him to say, "Hey, that is going to 4 help us out"? 5 A No. 6 Q Not at all? Okay. 7 Do you -- 8 THE COURT: By the way, for whatever it's 9 worth, the deposition on the 8th was from 11 a.m. to 10 4:50, according to the front page. So I'm going to 11 assume that is accurate. That is the court 12 reporter's front page. 13 THE WITNESS: I think it is, your Honor. I do 14 remember it ended at 10 of 5. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Do you know how thick a pile of documents were 17 brought over on the 7th? 18 A I don't. 19 Q To Mr. Pope's office? 20 A I don't. 21 Q And on the 8th, none of these documents found 22 their way into Mr. Minton's deposition. Is that your 23 testimony? 24 A I think my testimony was I don't really recall. 25 But I don't think so.
818 1 Q Okay. 2 THE COURT: There were a bunch of documents. 3 However, the documents appear to be bank statements, 4 invoices and check numbers. So as I said, 5 whatever -- I guess we're picking up from some other 6 deposition because I see Plaintiff's Exhibit Numbers 7 125 through 158. 8 THE WITNESS: I think that is correct, your 9 Honor, because it was a continuation. 10 THE COURT: Checks. Then a Bank of America 11 bank statement, invoice -- invoices, bank statement, 12 bank statement, invoices. That is what was 13 introduced at that. 14 THE WITNESS: Right. 15 THE COURT: So we all know what was introduced. 16 THE WITNESS: Right. I think it was related to 17 LMT. And I believe it was a continuation of a 18 deposition. And it was my impression that Mr. Rosen 19 was simply picking up where he left off in that 20 deposition. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Okay. Do you recall if any of these bank 23 documents or the list the judge just described -- were any 24 of those documents brought over to Mr. Pope's office on the 25 7th?
819 1 A I don't believe so. 2 Q Do you remember any mention of those documents 3 being either in possession of Mr. Rosen or any member of the 4 Church? 5 A I don't remember that it was or wasn't. 6 Q Now, on the 8th, after the deposition, was there 7 any preparation with Mr. Minton for testimony on the 9th in 8 front of Judge Baird? 9 MR. FUGATE: That was asked and answered on 10 Tuesday. But -- 11 THE COURT: Well, I'm sorry, I don't remember, 12 myself. I think you are right, but -- 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm trying to stay out of 14 this. 15 THE COURT: I know. And I appreciate it. 16 MR. LIROT: I'm trying to move along, Judge, 17 I'm not trying to rehash or replow old ground. 18 THE WITNESS: But you are replowing almost all 19 old ground, Mr. Lirot. 20 THE COURT: Yes, I believe that was asked and 21 answered that he prepared for his hearing in front 22 of Judge Baird. 23 MR. LIROT: All right. 24 THE COURT: If you asked who was present or 25 not -- you probably did, and it is probably in the
820 1 record. I didn't write it down. 2 MR. LIROT: That was my next question. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Who was there when Mr. Minton was being assisted 5 in preparation for his testimony in front of Judge Baird 6 which was going to be given on April 9, 2002? 7 A Mmm, as I testified earlier, I believe, Mr. Jonas 8 was there by then. And I believe we had dinner with him. I 9 believe Mr. Minton also spoke to Mr. Howie about it after 10 the deposition. 11 I don't recall anything else happened. 12 Q Okay. Did he speak with Mr. Rinder that day on 13 the 8th? 14 A Mmm, I don't know. 15 Q All right. Did he have, at that time, documents 16 which had been presented to him, any highlighted documents 17 to show him what would be helpful in his testimony the next 18 day? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q Did he take anything home with him on the 7th from 21 the library meeting in Mr. Pope's office? 22 A Not that I recall. But, again, it would be better 23 to ask Mr. Minton these questions. You are asking me about 24 what he did, what he thought -- 25 THE COURT: I think that is fair. You know,
821 1 you may have observed he had a stack of papers with 2 him or he didn't. If you don't remember, you don't 3 remember. 4 THE WITNESS: I understand, your Honor. I'm 5 just suggesting -- 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right, so on the 9th he appears in front of 8 Judge Baird -- 9 THE COURT: So you don't know the answer, you 10 don't remember whether he had any papers or -- 11 THE WITNESS: I don't believe he did. 12 THE COURT: All right. I mean, that is an 13 answer. 14 MR. LIROT: Okay. 15 THE COURT: Not whether it is good or bad, that 16 is your answer. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, Mr. Fugate was kind enough to show us a 19 letter. We have a letter dated the 15th, which is the date 20 you said you received your documents? 21 A Well, what I said was the best way for me to date 22 that meeting was by the date of that letter, because I think 23 that letter was issued that day or maybe the day before. 24 But -- 25 Q Okay. And after the 9th, I think did Mr. Minton
822 1 receive any documents, to your knowledge, before you 2 received yours? 3 A Mmm, not that I recall. 4 Q Were they provided together? Was there a large 5 pile of documents provided to both you and Mr. Minton 6 together? 7 A No. 8 Q All right. Do you know -- do you know if Mr. 9 Minton received a stack of documents from any attorneys for 10 the Church or anybody associated with the Church? 11 A Mmm, on the -- what day are you asking me about? 12 Q I guess post -- I think your testimony was before 13 the 9th you don't recall Mr. Minton having been provided any 14 stack of documents or any documents? 15 THE COURT: Well now, no, she didn't say that. 16 A I don't think that is what I said. 17 THE COURT: He asked for documents in that very 18 meeting with Mr. Rinder. And Mr. Rinder called 19 somebody, she doesn't know who, and they brought 20 over documents. He didn't take them home with him. 21 So you are going to have to be real careful here 22 about what exactly it is you are asking her because 23 I don't want her to be confused. 24 This is what happens, you see, when there is 25 confusion on her part because of the questions
823 1 asked. I'm sure lawyers don't mean to confuse 2 witnesses. 3 MR. LIROT: I'm not trying to confuse anybody. 4 If it is anything, I must be confused. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q But my question is you were given a stack of 7 documents at some point to help you set the record straight. 8 Correct? 9 A Mmm, I think what I testified was that my attorney 10 and I were given several excerpts of depositions of mine by 11 Mr. Fugate. And my attorney and I went through each one and 12 determined whether anything in that deposition required 13 being included in my recantation or not. 14 Q Okay. And what about Mr. Minton? Did he receive, 15 likewise, documents, not at the meeting on the 7th, but at 16 some point was he delivered a stack of documents at his 17 request, or at anyone's behest, to go through so he could 18 set the record straight? 19 A Mmm, as I think I also already testified, at the 20 same meeting where Mr. McGowan and I were given documents by 21 Mr. Fugate, Mr. Minton was also given some documents. And 22 he later went over those with his attorney, Mr. Howie. 23 Q Okay. How thick was the pile of documents that 24 you were given? 25 A Let me see.
824 1 Q You are -- 2 A Mmm -- 3 Q It looks like you are describing two and a half 4 inches, maybe three inches? 5 A Perhaps. It wasn't a very large stack. 6 Q All right. Did you see the stack of documents 7 that was presented to Mr. Minton? 8 A I saw it when he was going over it with Mr. Howie. 9 Q How thick was the stack of documents given Mr. 10 Minton, do you recall? 11 A Mmm, I don't recall whether it was -- was it more 12 than that? I mean -- 13 THE COURT: This is -- without the notebook, is 14 that -- 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, probably a little 16 less than the big fat one. 17 THE COURT: Okay. This is the one that has 18 been described by counsel for the plaintiff as a 19 4-inch -- I remember they said they had four inches 20 of documents. 21 THE WITNESS: But there is something I need to 22 clarify about these stacks. As I recall -- you know 23 how, when you have a sheet -- sheets of paper 24 stapled together, and you fold over something to 25 read something on a certain page?
825 1 THE COURT: Yes? 2 THE WITNESS: Then you have a few of those kind 3 where you folded over a few pages to read on a 4 certain page? Then you put them altogether? And 5 then it ends up being -- 6 THE COURT: Like this? So it makes it look 7 thicker? 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It ends up -- when I 9 say -- mine, for example, was probably about that 10 thick, it wasn't solid thick. It was those folded 11 over, some of the things were those folded over 12 kind, as I recall. 13 THE COURT: Most of the time when somebody 14 gives me something, they give it to me stapled 15 together, and I do my own folding. Were these 16 things folded to certain pages? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, some of them were folded to 18 a page where there was something highlighted. 19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 20 THE WITNESS: That is the reason. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Do you know who highlighted the copies? 23 THE COURT: In any event, for what it is worth, 24 she said about half -- this was identified as four 25 inches. I don't know how big that is, but that is
826 1 what they said. So I would presume half of that 2 would be about two inches. 3 MR. LIROT: I'll go with that, Judge. 4 THE WITNESS: Something like that. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q All right. So we have numerous documents, by 7 anybody's analysis. And -- 8 A Well -- 9 Q -- where were they delivered? Were they delivered 10 to Mr. McGowan's office? 11 A They were delivered to Mr. McGowan's hands. 12 Q Okay. Where? 13 A We really have said this several times. That is 14 for sure. But I'll tell you again. 15 Mr. McGowan and I met with Mr. Fugate in a 16 conference room in Mr. Pope's office. And Mr. Fugate handed 17 over a stack of documents to Mr. McGowan. 18 Q And that was on April 15th? 19 A Well, as I said earlier, if the letter from 20 Mr. Fugate is dated April 15th, then that would probably be 21 the date of that transaction. 22 Q All right. Now, you received these documents. 23 They were already highlighted. Is that your testimony? 24 A That has been my testimony several times, 25 actually.
827 1 THE COURT: Yes, it has been. That I remember. 2 That I thought was important. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Who highlighted them? 5 A And, again, I have already told you, I don't know. 6 Q All right. 7 A But -- 8 THE COURT: She thought it might have been 9 Ms. Yingling, as I recall. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think I said that. I 11 don't think Ms. Yingling would have done it. But 12 basically my attorney and I went over each one, 13 including what was highlighted and what wasn't. 14 Someone apparently thought that those things that 15 were highlighted were things that I might need to 16 include in my recantation. Some of them were 17 correct because we had spoken about them. Some of 18 them weren't. 19 I didn't go by the highlights. I went by my 20 own memory. My attorney and I went over these 21 things together. And that was what happened. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q If you want to set the record straight, why are 24 you asking for documents from someone else? Why don't you 25 get the documents in their entirety and go through them
828 1 yourself? 2 THE COURT: I think you asked that, too. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: And I think I told you last time 5 you asked it, some of this stuff you really need to 6 save for argument. 7 MR. LIROT: All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Now, between the 9th and the 15th, did you have 10 any meetings with either members of the Church or the 11 Church's counsel before the documents were presented to you 12 and after the day that Mr. Minton testified in front of 13 Judge Baird? 14 That was April 9th? 15 A I believe so. 16 Q So Mr. Minton testifies on April 9th? 17 A I believe so. 18 Q Okay. Can you tell me what dates those were, if 19 you can remember? 20 A Mmm, I really can't remember dates. But I do 21 recall that we met with at least Mr. Rinder maybe two or 22 three times. Perhaps Ms. Yingling was there, as well. 23 I -- I -- I can tell you that there were several 24 meetings which I attended at which Mr. Minton and Mr. Rinder 25 and Ms. Yingling and I met. I can't tell you dates, but --
829 1 but there were several meetings at which those people were 2 present. 3 Q Okay. 4 THE COURT: I apologize. My note was she went 5 over some documents -- a document she had typed, I 6 believe it was her affidavit. She went over it with 7 Ms. Yingling. That was -- my apologies. 8 THE WITNESS: That was later, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Right. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So after the 9th, this is the day after Judge 12 Baird's hearing, do you remember if there was a meeting on 13 that day? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, just to make sure we're 16 on the same date, the hearing was the 9th. Are you 17 meaning the 10th? Or the 9th? 18 MR. LIROT: The 10th. 19 THE WITNESS: Are we going over each day? 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q If I can help refresh your memory. 22 A I don't think that will help refresh my memory. I 23 think I already told you, to the best of my memory, we had 24 several meetings. 25 Q Then I'll just go meeting by meeting.
830 1 The first meeting after the hearing of Judge Baird 2 on April 9, who was in attendance at the first meeting? 3 A The first meeting between me and Mr. Minton and 4 Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rinder, those four people were in 5 attendance. 6 Q Okay. How long did that meeting last? 7 A Mr. Lirot, I don't really remember. There were a 8 series of meetings. 9 Q I'm only -- 10 A Let me finish. There were a series of meetings. 11 In my mind, you know, I don't think I'm going to be able to 12 tell you how long each meeting lasted. 13 For me, it was a series of meetings which were 14 very helpful to me and culminated in my being able to write 15 the affidavit that I wrote. 16 Q Okay. The first meeting, you don't remember how 17 long it was, and it was just you, Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder and 18 Ms. Yingling? 19 A What I'm saying is there were a series of meetings 20 between me, Mr. Minton, Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rinder. Okay? 21 So there were a series of meetings where those four people 22 were the people that were there. 23 Q All right. And I am just asking you about those 24 meetings. 25 The first meeting, you don't remember when it was,
831 1 you don't remember how long it was. 2 What was discussed at the first meeting? 3 A Well, I can tell you what was discussed during the 4 series of meetings that we had. I'm not going to be able to 5 break it down meeting by meeting. I'm not going to be able 6 to do that for you because I don't remember it that 7 specifically. 8 But I can tell you generally that what was 9 discussed at the meetings was the specific points that 10 either Mr. Minton or I had been trying to cover up in -- 11 well, at Mr. Dandar's urging. 12 Q Okay. Who brought up these points during these 13 meetings? 14 A Well, Mr. Minton did originally. And -- and I 15 did. 16 Q All right. So basically, you had some 17 recollection of all of the things that you had said that 18 were incorrect earlier. Is that true? 19 A Oh, well, there were specific things that we were 20 acutely aware of having testified falsely about. 21 Q Okay. And some you weren't sure about so you 22 looked to the -- for the other folks you were at the meeting 23 with to sort of point out to you where you made a mistake? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay. What happened?
832 1 A There were other things. Mr. Rinder had gone over 2 a lot of our testimony, apparently. And he asked about 3 other things, you know, "Was this true?" You know, "It 4 always seems strange to me," or whatever. And we said 5 either -- "Yeah, that's what happened." 6 Q So what did Mr. Rinder ask about that seemed 7 strange to him that you said, "Yeah, that is true"? 8 A Mmm, I'm not being able to remember a specific, 9 right off the top of my head. 10 But there were things -- all I can tell you, I 11 remember there were things that he thought might have been 12 untrue, and we corrected him on those things. I -- I can't 13 remember right now a specific. 14 Q Were there a lot of those things? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. Were you at every meeting between Mr. 17 Minton and Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling or Mr. Minton and any 18 other member of the Church or their counsel? 19 A I believe Mr. Minton may have had some meetings 20 that I did not attend. 21 Q Do you remember around that period of time having 22 a dinner with Jesse Prince? 23 A Yes. Well, that was -- that was the next week. I 24 do remember that. 25 Q Was that --
833 1 A There were several dinners, actually. 2 Q Was that after the 15th? I'm using the 15th as 3 the date we understand to be when Mr. McGowan received the 4 documents that apparently I have gotten a copy of today. So 5 I'm using that as sort of a -- 6 A Oh, is that why you are asking me about this 7 11-inch stack that Jesse keeps talking about? 8 Q Well, I don't know anything about -- what was 9 given to you? 10 A Mmm -- 11 THE COURT: She already said -- 12 MR. LIROT: Judge, this is a different -- this 13 is a different meeting. 14 THE COURT: It's a different stack? 15 MR. LIROT: I don't know. Let me ask. 16 A Well, you have a lot of questions here. You were 17 asking about Jesse -- 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q I'll strike all of the other questions and I'll 20 start over. 21 Where I had left off from before, Mr. Rinder 22 apparently pointed out a lot of things you thought were 23 untrue, you straightened those out, but you don't remember 24 which ones? 25 THE COURT: She didn't say a lot of things.
834 1 You see, this is the problem is a lot of times 2 people don't listen, acutely listen. And they might 3 say yes, then somebody goes back and tries to 4 impeach somebody from that question. 5 That is not the correct statement about what 6 she had said. She didn't say a lot of things. She 7 said, I believe -- I didn't write it down, it wasn't 8 that important. 9 THE WITNESS: But it was definitely not -- I 10 didn't say that. 11 THE COURT: You said a few, or something. 12 MR. LIROT: Something. 13 THE WITNESS: You said -- 14 THE COURT: But I didn't hear some of the 15 things he pointed out that were untrue which might 16 be more important. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't think Mr. Lirot cares 18 about those, your Honor. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I appreciate Ms. Brooks' 20 respect for me -- 21 THE COURT: Yeah, we don't need that. It might 22 be important to me. 23 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm getting there. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Was there a period of time with you or Jesse
835 1 Brooks (sic) where another packet of documents was delivered 2 to either you or Mr. Minton? 3 A Jesse Prince. I'm Stacy Brooks. 4 Q What did I say? Jesse Brooks? 5 A Jesse Brooks. 6 Q My mistake. I'll straighten that out. 7 A Okay. Say that again. 8 Q Was there a period -- 9 THE COURT: Maybe we need to eat. I think we 10 do. Everybody, all right? We can all be on the 11 same page for once. We're going to go eat. It is 12 10 to 1. We'll be back at 2 o'clock. 13 I remind you, ma'am, this is one of those 14 breaks you may speak to your lawyer but no one else. 15 MR. HOWIE: One point. Mr. Minton wishes to be 16 allowed to come and go during the hearing. Is there 17 a new time at which Mr. Minton must be present? 18 THE COURT: Oh, I don't know that we're going 19 to get finished today. I can't tell you. Speak to 20 counsel there. 21 MR. HOWIE: Thank you very much. 22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you mean that I can 23 -- I mean, I'll not talk to anybody else about my 24 testimony, but I can speak to people -- 25 THE COURT: Yes. You can speak to anybody but
836 1 not about your testimony. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, were you going to take up 3 what else was on your pink sheet, too, when we get 4 back? 5 THE COURT: Maybe sometime at the end of the 6 day. I don't want anybody to read it because these 7 are my notes. Some are these private notes. Some 8 are notes to you-all. 9 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 10 THE COURT: So am I clear on that? These notes 11 are mine, not to be seen by anybody but me. But, 12 yes, I'm going over those. 13 MR. FUGATE: I was only asking procedure-wise 14 because I'll try to go through the documents over 15 the break, because that may speed this up. 16 THE COURT: I'll sometime, before the end of 17 today, go through the rest of the things I wrote 18 down that have some significance to me. 19 MR. FUGATE: All right. 20 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 21 22 23 24 25
837 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 13th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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