IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 14, 2002. Afternoon Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Volume 9, Page 1121 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 12 13 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization 17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 19 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 20 21 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue 22 St. Petersburg, Florida. Counsel for Robert Minton 23 24 25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1122 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 8 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 9 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1123 1 (The afternoon session began at 1:33 p.m. 2 Ms. Stacy Brooks is still the witness.) 3 THE COURT: We don't have Mr. Fugate at the 4 moment, so we'll wait for him. 5 (Mr. Fugate entered the courtroom.) 6 MR. FUGATE: Thank you very much, your 7 Honor. 8 THE COURT: You're welcome. 9 I had a chance just recently to read the 10 filing this morning from the Church, memorandum in 11 further support of omnibus motion for terminating 12 sanctions and other relief. 13 Did the plaintiffs get a copy of this? 14 MR. LIROT: Yes, we did, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: I think that you're on notice 16 that one of the bases upon which they plan to ask me 17 to dismiss this case at the conclusion of this hearing 18 is that -- their belief that there was no foundation 19 to file the fifth amended complaint. 20 MR. LIROT: That certainly appears from the 21 face of that, although they are not specific. There's 22 a lot of case law, but there's certainly no specific 23 allegation in that -- in that memorandum. 24 THE COURT: Well, it's specific enough for 25 me, that I know that what I'm going to be asked to do
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1124 1 is to dismiss this, stating that, number one, there 2 was no good-faith basis to file the complaint that is 3 in existence in this case, which would be the last 4 complaint -- 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Correct. 6 THE COURT: -- which is the fifth amended 7 complaint. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And I think you're on notice. I 10 don't think we're that far into the hearing. And I'll 11 be candid with you all, I have some serious questions 12 about this. I raised this -- 13 MR. LIROT: Yes. 14 THE COURT: -- yesterday. 15 MR. LIROT: Yes. 16 THE COURT: I said at some point in time 17 we've got to know this. We just can't go to trial 18 wondering if there's any basis to support this 19 complaint. 20 And I think now they've made it an issue in 21 this hearing, as I said. If we were three-quarters of 22 the way through, I would gasp and say, "Oh, dear lord, 23 we're going to have to do it again." But I don't 24 think we do, and I think this would be evidentiary in 25 nature.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1125 1 And again, I'm not requiring you necessarily 2 to put on your entire case. 3 MR. LIROT: Right. 4 THE COURT: But I think that this fairly 5 puts this at issue, which is that this complaint -- 6 and I'm talking now about the complaint that I didn't 7 exactly understand how it was filed, that being that 8 the Church allowed this lady to die intentionally. 9 MR. LIROT: Yes. 10 THE COURT: That's what it says. 11 MR. LIROT: I'm aware -- I'm aware of the 12 allegations, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Yes. And so I would suspect 14 that in the process of your -- and -- and due to that, 15 if there's anybody that's been called in the previous 16 hearing -- you know, the only people called up there 17 were Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich and Mr. Minton -- 18 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 19 THE COURT: -- that's been called. So if 20 this witness is on the stand and you have anything 21 that you want to ask of her to support this aspect of 22 this -- this motion, you may feel free to expand. If 23 there's nothing that you want to ask her about this, 24 that's fine. 25 MR. LIROT: I -- actually, Judge, I was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1126 1 going to incorporate that into some of my questions 2 this afternoon. 3 THE COURT: Good. 4 MR. FUGATE: May we approach the bench, your 5 Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Do you want this on the record? 8 MR. FUGATE: No. 9 (An off-the-record bench conference was held 10 between Mr. Fugate and Mr. Lirot.) 11 (Mr. Howie entered the courtroom.) 12 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks, I know you were 13 probably hopeful that you would be done today, and you 14 may be. I doubt that you had a chance to read all 15 those affidavits at lunch. 16 THE WITNESS: I didn't. 17 THE COURT: Okay. So in any event, if 18 there's to be some inquiry made about those 19 affidavits, it will have to be made -- 20 THE WITNESS: Thursday. 21 THE COURT: -- Thursday. I've explained to 22 counsel that I would assume this -- this -- it doesn't 23 matter really what it is. It's an allegation that the 24 complaint should be dismissed because there's no 25 good-faith basis to file it. And consequently, you --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1127 1 they may have some questions of you regarding that 2 they haven't asked now that this has been squarely put 3 at issue, not lies as much as was there a good-faith 4 basis. 5 THE WITNESS: All right. I understand that. 6 THE COURT: So if they expand their inquiry, 7 you end up being with us more than you thought you 8 were going to be, why, that's the reason. I've 9 allowed that. Otherwise, they would have to bring you 10 back, so -- okay? 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: You may continue. 13 So I'm assuming this is now at issue in this 14 hearing. 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 16 THE COURT: And that if there's any evidence 17 that anybody wants to put on, they need to put it on. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 19 MR. LIROT: Acknowledged, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Good. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, am I allowed to 22 know what that is? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: I mean, what it says. 25 THE COURT: It says:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1128 1 "Under Florida law, the complaint is 2 improper, not only where the attorney knows 3 factual allegations to be false, but also that 4 the plaintiff lacks evidence to support his 5 factual allegation and where the complaint is 6 based on speculation and surmise." 7 And so that is, in a nutshell -- this goes 8 on for eight -- well, not really -- 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: I kept it down to seven 10 pages. 11 THE COURT: Seven. Yes, you did, Counsel. 12 -- seven pages and citations, but they're 13 really sort of putting us on notice that they're not 14 just talking about allegations being false, but that 15 if a complaint is filed because it's a "maybe" or 16 "we're guessing," that they're going to make -- I 17 don't know if they're right or not -- they're going to 18 make a legal argument that I should dismiss the 19 complaint because it was either lies or there was no 20 good-faith basis or it was based on conjecture. 21 THE WITNESS: I see. Okay. 22 THE COURT: And as I said, you were a 23 consultant at this stage, so there may be some 24 matters -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1129 1 THE COURT: -- that they want to raise with 2 you, which we'll allow them to do. 3 THE WITNESS: All right. 4 MR. LIROT: Very good. Thank you, Judge. 5 THE COURT: You're welcome to read this, if 6 they want to give you a copy of it. But that's it in 7 a nutshell. 8 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: If counsel wants to give you 11 more -- 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS, CONTINUED 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Ms. Brooks, you were going through your 15 affidavit, the one that you signed on April 29th, and I 16 think I had gotten to paragraph 9. And I asked you to read 17 that paragraph. Would you like to refresh your memory and 18 read it over again? 19 A I just did. 20 Q Just read it, all right. 21 THE COURT: And I would assume by that 22 motion that that motion means that they're going to 23 ask that this be dismissed with prejudice. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's correct, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: In other words, they're going to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1130 1 ask that it be dismissed and not be allowed to be 2 amended. 3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Which is another issue, but 5 that's -- 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 7 THE COURT: -- as I was reading that, I 8 didn't see that, but I just made that assumption, 9 which I'm sure you -- 10 MR. LIROT: I assumed the same from the 11 pleading, Judge. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, paragraph 9, I think you had 15 testified that in mid-1998 you were a resident of 16 Washington state. You were living in Seattle? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. And at that point, were you still married 19 to Mr. Young? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And I think your testimony was that you were 22 working on three other cases involving the Church of 23 Scientology? 24 A I don't remember if your question concerned 25 mid-1998 or -- I don't remember what your question was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1131 1 earlier. 2 Q I was actually trying to find out what different 3 activities you were involved with in mid-1998, and that 4 might be the easiest way to answer that. What were you 5 doing in mid-1998? 6 A I was on the board of FACTNet with Mr. Minton. 7 Q Okay. 8 A The FACTNet lawsuit was still ongoing. As I 9 recall, I was working with Mr. Leiphold on that case, as 10 well as the Wollersheim case was also still ongoing, and 11 the wrongful death case. 12 Q Okay. You weren't doing anything with Mr. Dandar 13 in '98, though, were you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q All right. What -- what participation in the 16 wrongful death case did you have in 1998? 17 A As I recall, in the fall -- and actually, I 18 believe this is in my affidavit -- Mr. Prince -- Mr. Minton 19 and I had Mr. Prince begin working with Mr. Dandar at that 20 time. And I was working directly with Mr. Prince on it, as 21 well as being in touch with Mr. Dandar directly. 22 Q Well, I think you've got that in paragraph 11, 23 and I'm talking about mid-1998, focusing specifically on 24 paragraph 9. And you specifically say you became 25 Mr. Minton's eyes and ears in Mr. Dandar's office.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1132 1 A Well, I think -- I think if you read it 2 correctly, it says, "By mid-1998, Mr. Minton had begun to 3 pay me to assist him in his anti-Scientology activities." 4 THE COURT: Slow down, please. 5 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 6 Did you get that? 7 THE REPORTER: (Nodded affirmatively.) 8 A And then the next sentence is, "With regard to my 9 work on the wrongful death case, once I began working for 10 Mr. Minton, I became his eyes and ears." 11 I believe that it was in the fall -- I don't -- I 12 believe in the summer -- which, when I say mid-1998, I mean 13 mid to late summer. I believe I did have some contact with 14 Mr. Dandar towards the late summer, but more in the fall. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Okay. Well, this says mid-98, and I guess my 17 question would be, in mid-98, how many times had you been 18 in Mr. Dandar's office? 19 A I -- I don't recall when the first time was that 20 I was actually in his office. I don't recall. It may have 21 been later than mid-1998. But again, when I said 22 "mid-1998," what I was saying there was that by then 23 Mr. Minton had begun to pay me to assist him, and it wasn't 24 just the wrongful death case. 25 Q Well, to me, this suggests, to be somebody's eyes
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1133 1 and ears, that you're pretty much there all the time 2 keeping an eye on this case. What does that mean? You -- 3 it's your -- it's your phrase. I don't know what that 4 means, "Mr. Minton's eyes and ears in Mr. Dandar's office." 5 A Okay. 6 Q And you're -- and this is your affidavit, and 7 obviously your testimony was that you wanted to put a lot 8 in here. You wanted to set the record straight. And now 9 your testimony -- 10 MR. McGOWAN: Object to the form. This is a 11 speech. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. She never testified 13 she wanted to put a lie in here. 14 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I thought that's what you said, 16 you wanted to put a lie in here. 17 MR. LIROT: No, no, no, no. I didn't say 18 that. 19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. What did you say? 20 MR. LIROT: "Eyes and ears." She wanted to 21 be Mr. Minton's eyes and ears. I didn't say -- I 22 didn't say lies. I wasn't accusing Ms. Brooks of 23 lying. I'm just -- I'm just wondering if -- 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q What do you mean by that? How could you possibly
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1134 1 be Mr. Minton's eyes and ears if you've got all this other 2 litigation, or at least three other cases, you're still 3 living in Seattle, and by your own testimony, this doesn't 4 really happen until late 1998. I guess on paragraph 11 you 5 make that statement. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I would object. 7 It's argumentative. If he could just ask one 8 question, just a question. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 When did you become Mr. Minton's eyes and 11 ears? 12 THE WITNESS: Once I began working for 13 Mr. Minton. 14 THE COURT: And was that mid-1998 or was 15 that later in 1998? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, with regard to the work 17 on the wrongful death case, I believe it was later in 18 1998. It was probably in the fall. Yes. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Well, then, this doesn't set the record straight. 21 This kind of slants it to a different direction, doesn't 22 it? 23 MR. McGOWAN: Argumentative. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 BY MR. LIROT:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1135 1 Q Now, in paragraph 10 -- if you could read that, 2 please. 3 A Yes. 4 Q How many conversations did you have with 5 Mr. Dandar where he said, "How could we bring pressure to 6 bear on Scientology?" 7 A I would estimate as many as 20, perhaps more. 8 Q And this is all in mid to late '98? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. 11 A No. 12 Q In mid to late '98, how many conversations would 13 you have had with Mr. Dandar relative to the issue of 14 bringing pressure to bear on Scientology? 15 A I don't remember how many in that particular time 16 period. When I say as many as 20, I mean during the course 17 of the time that I was working with him on this case. 18 Q Now, you also say that you advised him to 19 concentrate on attacking the upper echelon of Scientology. 20 And what was your basis in advising him to do that? 21 MR. McGOWAN: This has been asked and 22 answered. We're just going over this. 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was off in my own 24 world here. What was the question? 25 MR. McGOWAN: The question was what was the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1136 1 basis of her wanting to concentrate on attacking the 2 upper echelon of Scientology. I think the testimony 3 has been she developed a strategy, and she and 4 Mr. Dandar went over it a number of times. 5 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it to be 6 asked again. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q It says in paragraph 10, "In each conversation, I 9 advised him he should concentrate on attacking the upper 10 echelon of Scientology." And that's your strategy, isn't 11 it? Isn't that the strategy that you said you developed? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. Now, you developed that strategy, and 14 I guess you have a lot of Scientology documents in the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust that I think you earlier testified to that 16 you shredded because of some fear of copyright. Is that 17 correct? 18 A That was in 2000. 19 Q Okay. Well, did you have those -- those 20 documents? Did you have Scientology documents in mid to 21 late 1998? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you'd been with Scientology for 15 years, 24 correct? 25 A About 14 1/2.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1137 1 Q Okay. So -- and I think your testimony was that 2 certainly in some of your declarations and the one that I 3 think we entered into evidence before today, you articulate 4 what your responsibilities were. And certainly you were 5 part of the -- of the OSA, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. And that's part of the higher 8 echelon, sort of the Office of Special Affairs? Is that 9 what it is? 10 MR. McGOWAN: It's a compound question, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: Pardon me? That's true. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Object to the form. 14 MR. LIROT: All right. 15 THE COURT: But we do know OSA, what it is. 16 She's told us that. 17 MR. LIROT: Correct, Judge. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q And OSA is the upper echelon of Scientology. 20 Isn't that correct? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. OSA has knowledge of how the upper echelon 23 of Scientology is constructed. Is that correct? 24 A No. 25 Q All right. What was OSA's responsibilities when
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1138 1 you were a member? 2 A Well, it's -- it was what I testified they were 3 earlier. 4 MR. LIROT: Okay. 5 THE COURT: I agree that was testified to; 6 and if not, she very clearly defines it on the time 7 line of Scientology's harassment of Robert S. Minton. 8 I'm looking right at it. She puts it in the one 9 sentence, tells us quite clearly what she says it is. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q In working on all the different declarations that 13 you produced for these other lawsuits, you held yourself 14 out to be an expert, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And you were offering your services as an expert 17 with somebody that was knowledgeable about the upper 18 echelon of Scientology. Isn't that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q All right. What did you base your knowledge on 21 regarding your knowledge of the upper echelons of 22 Scientology? Corporate structure, however you referred to 23 it in your declarations. 24 A Primarily I'd spent I believe six months working 25 in an organization called Author Services, Inc.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1139 1 Q Okay. And what was Author Services, Inc., 2 A-U-T-H-O-R? 3 A Author -- 4 Q Author. 5 A -- as in writing a book. 6 Q Okay. What was Author Services, Inc.? 7 A Well, this was in 1982, and it was established to 8 be a literary agency for L. Ron Hubbard's fiction work. 9 Q Okay. And what were your responsibilities with 10 that corporation? 11 A I was in charge of taking care of the personnel. 12 Q Okay. What else were your job functions? 13 A That was my job function. 14 Q So you were taking care of all the personnel for 15 Author Services, Inc.? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And that was an organization created to supervise 18 or distribute all of L. Ron Hubbard's fictional work? 19 A It was an organization created to be L. Ron 20 Hubbard's -- a literary agency for L. Ron Hubbard's 21 fiction. 22 Q Okay. How did that interplay with other 23 Scientology organizations? 24 A Well, when it was first established, 25 Mr. Miscavige was the chairman of the board of ASI.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1140 1 Q Author Services, Inc.? 2 A Yes. 3 Q All right. And he was the chairman of the board. 4 How did he -- how did he get named to that position? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q What other positions did he hold in the Church at 7 that time? 8 THE COURT: Who are we talking about? 9 MR. LIROT: David Miscavige. 10 THE COURT: Don't we all know -- I mean, 11 there's no dispute over this, is there? Mr. Miscavige 12 took over for L. Ron Hubbard, and he is the head of 13 the Church and everything -- am I wrong here? 14 MR. WEINBERG: No. You're right. But he 15 was asking about 1982, which was four years before 16 Mr. Hubbard died. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, okay. 18 MR. LIROT: I guess what I'm asking, 19 Judge -- and I'll frame the question to the witness. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q What personal knowledge did you have about the 22 corporate structure of Scientology that you felt entitled 23 you to create the declarations where you would go through a 24 description of this corporate structure? 25 A Well, it was fairly anecdotal, but I had heard
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1141 1 various things about the project that existed at that time, 2 which was I believe begun in 1981, perhaps 1980, in which 3 the corporate structure of the Church was being 4 reorganized. And so I had some general knowledge that that 5 was occurring. 6 Q How did you have knowledge that the corporate 7 structure was being reorganized -- reorgi- -- reorganized? 8 MR. FUGATE: I think she just testified to 9 that, Judge. I object. It was asked and answered. 10 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 11 A Well, I -- 12 THE COURT: I can't seem to keep my focus 13 here. I don't know whether I'm just off in la-la land 14 or what. If she just said it, I didn't hear it, so -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: What she said was it was 16 mostly anecdotal. 17 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to listen. I'm 18 going to watch you now. 19 All right. Go on ahead. 20 A I had several occasions in which I observed 21 Mr. Miscavige interacting with his subordinates. I knew, I 22 think, two or three of the people that were on the 23 particular project that did the reorganization. I had had 24 several conversations with one of the people who was on 25 staff in ASI about it. And basically what I did was to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1142 1 take that -- what I was asked to do was to take the actual 2 experience that I had and turn it into a pattern of 3 conduct. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Who asked you to do that? 6 A Well, I was asked for the pattern of conduct by 7 Mr. Berry, Mr. Leiphold, Mr. Dandar. 8 Q Not back then, Mr. Dandar didn't ask you to do 9 anything? 10 A I don't think you asked me in a particular 11 timeframe. You just asked me who asked me to do that. 12 Q Fair enough. Now, at that point, did David 13 Miscavige direct all of the -- I guess the business 14 organizations? 15 MR. WEINBERG: My objection is that they're 16 flying all over the place. She was talking about 17 Leiphold and Berry, which is in the '90s. Now he's 18 talking about, at that point, Mr. Miscavige. I think 19 we were talking about like 1981, right? Or '82. Can 20 we like focus on a date? 21 THE COURT: Okay. Are we talking about 1981 22 or '82? 23 MR. LIROT: I'm talking about the dates in 24 which she has -- she set forth in her declarations 25 that she has some knowledge of the corporate structure
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1143 1 or the leadership structure of the Church. So my 2 questions deal with those periods of time. 3 THE COURT: Okay. In her -- are you 4 speaking of her affidavits that's filed in this case 5 that dealt with the corporate structure? 6 MR. LIROT: Well, I think her affidavits 7 filed in this case say it was all speculation, and she 8 was, I think, trying to slant -- the later affidavits 9 is that she was trying to slant the information she 10 gave for whoever was asking for it. 11 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. I thought I 12 had just read some affidavit -- which I only read the 13 affidavits that pertain to this case -- where she was 14 talking about some structure. 15 MR. LIROT: All right. Well, let's -- 16 THE COURT: I don't know what period of time 17 you're referring to. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q You prepared some affidavits for this case, for 20 the wrongful death case? 21 A No. 22 Q All right. Did you allow the use of other 23 affidavits where you described the corporate structure of 24 Scientology for use in the wrongful death case? 25 A I believe so.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1144 1 Q And you signed an affidavit or something saying, 2 "I incorporate" -- "I incorporate these other affidavits?" 3 A That may be. I haven't actually seen what's 4 being referred to as my affidavits. 5 Q All right. And you tendered this information to 6 at least two other attorneys besides Mr. Dandar, stating 7 under oath that everything that you've stated in whatever 8 declarations or affidavits you filed was true and correct. 9 Is that true? 10 A As a general statement, yes. 11 Q All right. And -- 12 THE COURT: Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe what I 13 read had to do with different files, maybe not -- 14 maybe it wasn't the corporate structure. 15 Here's, ma'am, is what I read. This is what 16 I'm referring to. I'm referring now to a notice of 17 filing dated the 3rd of February of '98. Ms. -- 18 Ms. Young at that time did file an affidavit in this 19 case, basically stating, "I find as an independently 20 retained consultant in this matter, and attached 21 hereto is a genuine copy of another affidavit by 22 affiant --" 23 THE WITNESS: By a what? 24 THE COURT: "Another affidavit by affiant on 25 August 12th, 1983, in the case of Dickerson vs. Sally
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1145 1 Jesse Raphael" -- that's a new one -- "et al., finding 2 all the statements contained in the attached affidavit 3 are true and accurate." 4 That affidavit -- and I'll show it to you -- 5 deals apparently more with various files and whether 6 they would be confidential or non-confidential. 7 I think that's what I was referring to. I 8 was wrong. I did not read one that was dealing with 9 corporate structure. 10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think the ones 11 regarding corporate structure were incorporated in 12 this case. Prior declarations that described the 13 corporate structure I think were incorporated into 14 this case. Obviously, the record would speak for 15 itself. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Is that -- maybe that's 17 this declaration, which I didn't have a chance to 18 read. 19 MR. DANDAR: Yes, that's the one. 20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. LIROT: Apparently there's no cover 23 sheet on that one, but as I understand it, that was 24 one of the declarations that was incorporated into the 25 record in the wrongful death case.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1146 1 THE WITNESS: I don't need to look at this 2 one. 3 THE COURT: I guess not. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 THE COURT: Well, did she ever file a 6 declaration or an affidavit with that one stating it 7 was true? 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 9 MR. LIROT: Ms. -- apparently yes. 10 MR. DANDAR: Not like the other one. 11 That -- that one there on the corporate structure was 12 filed with the plaintiff's motion that had all the 13 parties in October '99. She did not file a separate 14 affidavit saying "The attached affidavit is true." 15 THE COURT: So you filed a motion and as 16 part of your motion attached this as an exhibit 17 showing it was an affidavit in another case. 18 MR. DANDAR: Correct. That was our 19 substantive evidence to support the fifth amended 20 complaint which they're now seeking to dismiss. 21 THE COURT: What, this one that -- 22 MR. DANDAR: That was just one of them. 23 THE COURT: -- Ms. Young is looking at now? 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then I didn't read
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1147 1 that in its entirety. I guess I'd better. 2 Not right now. You go ahead and look at it 3 so you know what they're referring to. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: If we're talking about the 6 corporate structure and whether or not David Miscavige 7 is the top of Scientology, I don't know that there's a 8 soul that would doubt that. I mean, I think everybody 9 knew that. 10 You certainly knew that. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: That's not an issue, is it? 13 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 THE WITNESS: May I hold this? 16 THE COURT: Sure. That's -- I need that 17 back, though -- 18 THE WITNESS: All right. 19 THE COURT: -- at the end of the day. 20 MR. MOXON: If we could get the date of the 21 affidavit that she's got now. 22 THE WITNESS: It is March 13th, 1997. It 23 was apparently filed in the Wollersheim case. Let me 24 see. 25 I believe it was filed in the Wollersheim
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1148 1 case. I'm not sure. 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just want to address the 5 comment you made just to make sure the record is clear 6 with respect to Mr. Miscavige, because you used terms 7 like "the head of Scientology" or whatever. They're a 8 little imprecise. 9 Mr. Miscavige is the senior ecclesiastical 10 official in the Scientology religion. He is the 11 chairman of the board of the Religious Technology 12 Center, which has various specific functions of 13 insuring the purity of the Scientology religion. He 14 didn't replace Mr. Hubbard's role, which is unique 15 within the religion and can't be replaced. 16 But he is -- it is true to say he is the 17 senior -- most senior ecclesiastical official in the 18 Church, in the religion, but each individual Church 19 has its own individual corporate leadership. And I 20 just want to be clear of what our position is on that. 21 THE COURT: Without either offending or not 22 offending anybody, when I think of the Catholic 23 Church, I think of the Pope as being the head of the 24 Catholic Church. When I think of the Church of 25 Scientology, I think of David Miscavige as being the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1149 1 head of that Church, just like I think of the Pope 2 being the head of the Catholic Church. That's the 3 reference I meant. When I said he's the head, he's 4 the top ecclesiastical leader. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: I understand. 6 THE COURT: I guess -- and I don't know 7 because I've never, thank God, had to deal with the 8 corporate structure of the Catholic Church, but I'm 9 sure there's a lot of it. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 11 THE COURT: And so I'm sure there's this and 12 there's that and the other thing. But if I were going 13 to refer to the Church, I would say the Pope is the 14 head of the Church. That's how I refer to David 15 Miscavige. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right. But each -- 17 just to following the analogy -- then I'll sit down -- 18 each archdiocese of the Catholic Church is a separate 19 structure. And usually it's the archbishop or the 20 cardinal who will have authority over the temporal 21 affairs in any particular jurisdiction. 22 THE COURT: And I guess the bishop -- and 23 apparently sometimes the bishop has some control, 24 because it seems to me like they're saying the bishops 25 need to do something about these allegations of sexual
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1150 1 abuse on children or what have you, like the bishops 2 have some control over the cardinals. I don't know, 3 and I don't want to go there. 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 5 THE COURT: When I refer -- when I made my 6 reference, as I said, my reference was that that's how 7 I perceived it. Everybody in this courtroom would 8 assume that he was the head ecclesiastical officer. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right, your Honor. 10 The bishop -- as you said, the bishop might have 11 authority over a particular matter. And while he 12 could have reported something to the Pope, it doesn't 13 mean that he did. 14 THE COURT: Right. 15 MR. LIROT: Unless he was on the ski slopes 16 at the right time, Judge. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, didn't Mr. Miscavige, during the early '80s 19 when you were still a member of Scientology, run the Author 20 Resource Corporation? Wasn't that a for-profit business 21 that supervised most of Scientology's commercial endeavors? 22 A Excuse me. 23 MR. MOXON: Objection, foundation. 24 THE COURT: Well, I think she can say she 25 doesn't know.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1151 1 MR. MOXON: Well -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: I think she already said that 3 he was the chairman of the board of Author Services. 4 I object to all the dialogue after that. She said he 5 was chairman of the board of Author Services. She -- 6 and she also explained what she understood Author 7 Services was, which was not what Mr. Lirot said. So 8 that was my objection, was to the form. 9 THE COURT: Okay. I think she can answer 10 his question. 11 A Okay. What was the question again? 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Wasn't Mr. Miscavige in charge of all of the 14 for-profit endeavors of Scientology when you were a member, 15 under I guess the umbrella of Author Resources, 16 Incorporated? 17 A Oh, you mean Author Services. 18 Q Author Services, I'm sorry. 19 A Okay. Perhaps I should clarify. Author Services 20 was a literary agency that was established to take care of 21 L. Ron Hubbard's fiction work. And that was a for-profit 22 corporation that dealt with L. Ron Hubbard's fiction works. 23 Q Did it run other nonprofit Scientology 24 corporations? 25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1152 1 THE COURT: I'm sure there's a point here 2 where you're going to tell us what the relevance of 3 this is. 4 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. LIROT: -- just basically that 7 Mr. Miscavige had knowledge of these upper echelon 8 operations and that essentially -- she testified about 9 the change in the corporate structure. I was going to 10 ask her about that. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. LIROT: Okay. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q What do you know about -- you testified in the 15 '80s there was a major change in the corporate structure. 16 A Yes. 17 Q When did that occur? 18 A Well, I'm not sure when it was finalized. There 19 was an ongoing project, and I believe it was begun in 1981. 20 I don't know that it was actually completed until perhaps 21 1985. But the overall goal of the corporate structure, as 22 I understood it, was to reorganize what was at that time 23 sort of the mother church corporation, which was called the 24 Church of Scientology of California. 25 Q Do you know why that reorganization took place?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1153 1 A Again, it was my understanding that -- that had 2 sort of been the first corporation. And then Scientology 3 grew, and it ended up that Church of Scientology of 4 California had various parts of Scientology under it that 5 it couldn't really -- or, that it wasn't really in charge 6 of anymore. And so that -- and again, this is my 7 understanding. 8 But I think the overall idea was to reorganize 9 the corporate structure so that it would more closely 10 resemble or align with the actuality of, you know, what 11 organizations were in charge of what and what Church of 12 Scientology of California actually controlled. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I have an 14 objection, which is lack of foundation. I think when 15 I hear her saying, again, "this is my understanding," 16 I think what she's saying is she doesn't have personal 17 knowledge of any of this, I think. And that's my 18 objection. 19 THE COURT: Okay. I think that would be 20 accurate. 21 Do you know this or -- 22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I wasn't ever 23 directly involved in the reorganization. But I -- 24 this is what I heard -- 25 THE COURT: I mean --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1154 1 THE WITNESS: -- pretty much. 2 THE COURT: -- was this discussed as -- I 3 don't know, as a member, whatever member -- were you a 4 Sea Org member? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. Was this discussed, 7 the corporate reorganization or why the corporate 8 reorganization was occurring, with the Sea Org 9 members? 10 THE WITNESS: We were briefed, yes, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: So while you were briefed, 13 you're giving us your best opinion as to what you were 14 told? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. So it may not be 17 true, but apparently she's giving us her information 18 as she believes it to be. I'm not sure where we're 19 going here. I really am not, Counselor. 20 MR. LIROT: I'll bring it back to the 21 affidavit, Judge. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Looking at your paragraphs 9 and 10 of your 24 affidavit, you talk about -- 25 A Which affidavit?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1155 1 Q April 29th, 2002. 2 A Okay. Well, we were talking about another one, 3 so I'm just clarifying that. 4 Q That's all right. I appreciate that. 5 THE COURT: What paragraph, Counselor? 6 MR. LIROT: I'm looking at paragraphs 9 and 7 10 for a question based -- there are two sentences 8 here. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q In paragraph 9, it says you wanted to make sure 11 that Mr. Dandar emphasized the Scientology aspects of the 12 case as much as possible. 13 A In paragraph 9? 14 Q In paragraph 9, at the end. 15 A Oh, okay, m'hum (affirmative). 16 Q And then in paragraph 10 at the end, it says, "In 17 each conversation, I advised him he should concentrate on 18 attacking the upper echelon of Scientology." What exactly 19 were you telling Mr. Dandar to do? 20 THE COURT: It says "particularly 21 Mr. Miscavige," it says. You've got to finish that. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Okay. Well, "upper echelon, particularly 24 Mr. Miscavige." My question is, During this time in 1998, 25 what exactly are you telling Mr. Dandar to do with the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1156 1 case? 2 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, as to paragraph 9 3 or paragraph 10? There's two different -- 4 THE COURT: Oh, I thought you were going to 5 say "asked and answered." 6 MR. McGOWAN: It has been asked and 7 answered. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MR. WEINBERG: It takes a while to get 10 there. 11 MR. LIROT: All right. Moving right along, 12 Judge. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Paragraph 11, would you read that paragraph, 15 please, the August -- excuse me, April 29th, 2002 16 affidavit. 17 THE COURT: We're going to assume, unless 18 you tell us otherwise, all references to "affidavits" 19 now, you're going through the April affidavit. 20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, Judge. 21 THE COURT: April 2002. 22 MR. LIROT: April 2002 affidavit. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q All right. You say that -- you're talking about
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1157 1 Mr. Prince. And it says: "Mr. Prince agreed that this was 2 the way to put pressure on Scientology, although we had no 3 evidence to link Miscavige in any way to the events 4 surrounding Lisa McPherson's death." How would you know 5 what Mr. Prince knew? 6 A Mr. Prince had left Scientology in 1992, Mr. 7 Lirot. How could he have any evidence to link 8 Mr. Miscavige to Lisa McPherson's death in 1995? That's 9 what I meant. 10 Q Okay. And you wouldn't have any personal 11 knowledge of that either, would you. 12 A I left Scientology in 1981 -- in 1989. 13 Q And nobody would have any personal knowledge 14 except the people that were in the hotel at the time she 15 died. Isn't that correct? 16 A I wouldn't know who else might, but certainly not 17 someone who wasn't there. 18 Q But Mr. Prince certainly had knowledge of the 19 corporate structure, so to speak, of Scientology. Is that 20 correct? 21 A Are you asking me my understanding of 22 Mr. Princes's understanding? 23 Q I'm asking -- well, are you aware of what 24 position Mr. Prince held in Scientology when he was a 25 member?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1158 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was that position? 3 A He was -- his job title was, I believe, deputy 4 inspector general external for a certain part of the time 5 that he was in Scientology. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I mean, he had other positions as well, but that 8 was one position that he held. 9 Q Was that the highest position that he held? 10 A I believe so. That's why I'm saying that one. 11 Q How high a position is that, based on your 12 knowledge of the corporate structure? 13 A That was -- he was directly under the deputy 14 inspector general, who at the time that he was on that 15 position was Vicki Aznaran. 16 MR. FUGATE: Could we just date it so we 17 know kind of where we are, whenever she is talking 18 about? 19 What year was that? 20 THE WITNESS: Uh -- 21 THE COURT: When Mr. -- whenever Mr. Prince 22 was -- 23 MR. FUGATE: Right, held the highest 24 position. 25 THE COURT: Right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1159 1 A I believe that was nineteen eighty- -- perhaps it 2 was 1985 to somewhere in early 1987. I may be -- I may be 3 mistaken about that, but I believe that is when he held 4 that position. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q What were his responsibilities? 7 A Again, this is going to be based on what he told 8 me. Well, there was a little bit of an understanding that 9 I had -- 10 THE COURT: That's hearsay. Sustained. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Okay. What was your understanding, other than 13 what you had heard from Mr. Prince, about his 14 responsibilities? 15 MR. McGOWAN: It's kind of back-door 16 hearsay, same question. 17 THE COURT: Unless -- I don't know, were you 18 all in the Church at the same time? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: And did you know him when you 21 were in the Church? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Well, to that extent, she has 24 some knowledge. 25 I don't know how high up he was or how high
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1160 1 up you were, to tell you the truth. I don't know 2 where he fell in the echelon or where you did. But to 3 the extent she has knowledge, you can tell him. 4 A Well, I didn't have direct dealings with 5 Mr. Prince when he had that position. But it was my 6 understanding when I was in Scientology that his job 7 involved hiring of attorneys -- well, in other words, when 8 it says "external," it -- deputy inspector general 9 external, the "external" was referring to matters external 10 to the Church itself, so that his duties included things 11 like hiring attorneys for various litigation that the 12 Church was involved in, I believe also dealing with other 13 matters that had to do with matters external to -- you 14 know, external to the internal workings of Scientology, 15 basically. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Is -- I don't understand. External -- "internal" 18 would mean just within the Church itself? 19 A Yes. There was a deputy inspector general 20 internal -- 21 THE COURT: I've got just a -- just a 22 general question here. It seems as if -- and I 23 realize -- and this is by no means insulting, but -- 24 and I don't mean this to be, but Mr. Dandar, it seemed 25 like he had -- I don't know that he asked these
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1161 1 questions. 2 MR. DANDAR: I'm a witness. 3 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know -- what 4 difference does it make? There's no jury here. 5 I mean, it seems like he's having to tell 6 you everything that you're saying, and I understand 7 that, because this probably is not in your knowledge 8 to date, necessarily. And if it is in his, it seems 9 like we could get there faster if he could just ask 10 the questions direct. 11 MR. LIROT: If you will bear me with a 12 little longer -- 13 THE COURT: I will. 14 MR. LIROT: -- I think I can get there. 15 THE COURT: I guess I will, but I'm saying 16 it will not offend me if Mr. Dandar were to 17 participate. He is co-counsel in this case and 18 therefore is permitted to make inquiry. 19 MR. LIROT: All right. 20 THE COURT: Just because he's a witness in 21 this hearing does not mean that he is -- he is 22 co-counsel in this case and therefore can at any time 23 ask questions. 24 MR. LIROT: I think I was operating from a 25 different assumption, Judge, so I appreciate your
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1162 1 attitude in that. 2 THE COURT: Well, I don't know that they 3 asked me to, and I will allow him to ask questions. I 4 will sustain that. I think he is co-counsel. He has 5 not been removed. This is a motion to dismiss this 6 case -- 7 MR. LIROT: Yes, it is. 8 THE COURT: -- throw it out. 9 MR. LIROT: That's correct. 10 THE COURT: This has been his case for five 11 years. 12 MR. LIROT: That's absolutely correct. 13 THE COURT: And you just got in on it at the 14 last minute, so I -- I don't mean at the last minute, 15 but you certainly have been added -- 16 MR. LIROT: I'm a new arrival. 17 THE COURT: You're a new arrival, and a very 18 welcome arrival, Mr. Lirot. But a lot of this 19 information has been acquired, I assume, by Mr. Dandar 20 through years of working on this case. And I have no 21 qualms at all about his asking any witness, including 22 this one, Mr. Minton, or anybody else, questions. 23 Just because he's a witness doesn't mean he can't make 24 inquiry for his client, whose case is at risk. 25 MR. LIROT: I understand that. Well, Judge,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1163 1 in light of that, seeing as it's 2:30, I think the old 2 saying is measure twice, cut once. Can we take five 3 minutes, and I can talk with Mr. Dandar to see if 4 there's a way to expedite this. 5 THE COURT: Sure. Am I crazy here? I mean, 6 this is a motion to dismiss the case. Just because 7 Mr. Dandar is a witness doesn't mean he can't ask 8 questions. 9 MR. FUGATE: Do you think I'm going to say 10 you're crazy, Judge? 11 THE COURT: I mean, I understand if a lawyer 12 is a witness in a jury trial where their credibility 13 is at issue -- and, naturally, this is a trial before 14 the Court, the credibility is at issue. But he 15 certainly is a lawyer in this case until removed, and 16 this is an issue that some of this has nothing to do 17 with his credibility. It has to do with what -- the 18 plaintiff wants to ask of these witnesses to get in 19 this record. The faster we can do that, the better. 20 MR. FUGATE: I don't disagree with that 21 analysis, Judge. 22 MR. WEINBERG: And we never asked that he 23 not participate. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I didn't know that. 25 You certainly have not asked me.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1164 1 MR. WEINBERG: No. 2 THE COURT: So I'm perfectly willing to let 3 him help you or actually make inquiry. 4 MR. LIROT: All right. Judge, can we take a 5 10-minute break and let me talk to him about that? 6 THE COURT: Absolutely. Go on ahead and 7 take a 10-minute break. I'm just kind of thinking to 8 myself. I'm not sure what I'm thinking. 9 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court is recessed 10 for 10 minutes. 11 (Break taken at 2:30 p.m. until 2:37 p.m. ) 12 THE COURT: You may continue. 13 MR. LIROT: Judge, Mr. Dandar is going to 14 continue the questioning. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, have you ever testified in a 19 declaration that David Miscavige as the captain of the Sea 20 Org runs all of Scientology? 21 A Probably. 22 Q Is that a truthful statement? 23 A I don't recall. 24 Q Is that a truthful statement if it's in your 25 declarations in other cases?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1165 1 MR. FUGATE: He should direct her to a 2 particular affidavit if we're going to start asking 3 about affidavits. 4 THE COURT: About an affidavit, I think you 5 can ask her if that's accurate, according to an 6 affidavit. 7 MR. DANDAR: (Gestured.) 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q If you said it in a prior declaration, it would 10 be accurate, correct, truthful? 11 A If I said what? 12 Q If you said David Miscavige as the captain of the 13 Sea Org controls all of Scientology? 14 A I don't recall the wording that I used. But what 15 is accurate is that Mr. Miscavige does control Scientology, 16 and Mr. Miscavige is the chairman of the board of RTC. 17 Q All right. My question is, If you said in a 18 prior declaration -- 19 THE COURT: Well, I think if you're going to 20 say in any prior declaration, if you can find it, you 21 really ought to find it and show it to her. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Did you advise me when I first met you and your 24 husband up in Seattle in the spring of 1997 that David 25 Miscavige controls all of Scientology, not in his position
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1166 1 as the chairman of the board of RTC, but as captain of the 2 Sea Org? 3 A I don't believe I did. 4 Q Do you -- 5 A I wouldn't use those words. 6 Q Do you recall your husband, Vaughn Young, telling 7 me that? 8 A I don't. 9 Q Okay. I'd like to have this marked as our next 10 exhibit. It's the Sea Org News. 11 THE COURT: Do you have one for the witness? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. This is 31, of the 13 plaintiff's. 14 MR. MOXON: Can we date this, Mr. Dandar? 15 MR. DANDAR: I'll ask the witness that. 16 How come I don't have one? I'll take this 17 one back. 18 THE COURT: Are these dated? I don't know. 19 Is there a date on here? 20 MR. DANDAR: I believe there's a -- yes, 21 there is, 1982, October 17th, San Francisco, 22 California. 23 THE COURT: Were you in the Church at that 24 time? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was, your Honor.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1167 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q And while you were a member of -- were you a 4 member of OSA at the time, or the Guardian's Office, at the 5 time in 1982? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. The Sea Org News, do you recall you and 8 your husband giving me this copy of the Sea Org News? 9 A We probably did. I used it in a declaration. 10 Q And the Sea Org News goes into great detail of 11 how Mr. Miscavige came into the San Francisco mission and 12 removed the corporate officers of that San Francisco 13 corporation. Is that correct? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q Okay. And he did that because he was the captain 16 of the Sea Org. Is that correct? 17 A That's not correct. 18 Q Well, how did he do it? 19 A He did it from his authority as -- as RTC. He 20 did it from RTC's authority, and I believe one of his 21 attorneys was also there to make that clear. But I do -- 22 but I did say to you that this could be used to show him as 23 head of the Sea Org. 24 Q I'm sorry. Back then his position was Commodore 25 David Miscavige. Is that correct?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1168 1 A That's incorrect. 2 Q Well, look at page 2, middle column, right below 3 the word "audience" at the bottom of the column. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Does that say Commodore David Miscavige? 6 A No. 7 Q What does that say? 8 A It says "commander." 9 Q Commander, okay. Was that the highest position 10 in the Sea Org at that time outside of Mr. Hubbard's 11 position? 12 A I don't know, but I do know that he does have the 13 highest position. 14 Q Sorry. 15 THE COURT: What does "RTC" stand for again? 16 MR. FUGATE: Religious Technology Center. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q How could I use this to show the power of 20 Mr. Miscavige in the Sea Org and throughout all of 21 Scientology, Ms. Brooks? How did you tell me to use it? 22 A How could you? 23 Q Yes. How did you tell me to use it? 24 A Well, basically what I said in my -- in one of my 25 declarations -- and I think I testified to this earlier,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1169 1 Mr. Dandar -- that since you had -- well, during what time 2 period are you talking about or speaking about this? 3 Q In 1982. 4 MR. WEINBERG: She asked about when you 5 spoke to her. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q In the spring of '97. 8 A Oh. I'm not -- I'm not clear on why you would 9 have been concerned about Mr. Miscavige as anything other 10 than chairman of the board of RTC in 1997, because it 11 wasn't until Judge Moody said that you couldn't name him as 12 head of the RTC that you needed to be able to name him in 13 some other capacity. 14 Q This is back in the spring of '97, before we ever 15 had a hearing with Judge Moody, which did not take place 16 until two years later. 17 A All right. 18 Q So I'm asking you back in November or the spring 19 of 1997, when I first met you and your husband in Seattle, 20 isn't it true that you told me that the person that runs 21 all of Scientology is Mr. Miscavige through his position in 22 the Sea Org? 23 MR. WEINBERG: That's asked and answered, 24 your Honor. She said no, it wasn't through the Sea 25 Org; it was through his position as chairman of the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1170 1 board of Religious Technology Center, the exact same 2 question. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 THE WITNESS: Are we done with this one? 5 MR. LIROT: We're done with that. The 6 document speaks for itself. 7 Your Honor, I would like to have this income 8 tax return marked as our next exhibit. This will be 9 No. 32. 10 MR. MOXON: Is that the LMT? 11 MR. DANDAR: Lisa McPherson Trust. 12 THE COURT: Is that the one we have that I 13 got today? 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 THE COURT: I think I've got a copy of it. 16 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy? 17 THE COURT: I think I do. 18 MR. DANDAR: Okay. If you don't, I have an 19 extra. Here you go, right there. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q There you go (handing). Who prepared this income 22 tax return? The Lisa McPherson Trust for the year 2000. 23 A An accountant. 24 Q Was this filed? 25 A Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1171 1 Q Did you sign for it, or sign for it on the first 2 page as the corporate officer? 3 A I believe I did, although this one doesn't have 4 the signature for some reason. 5 Q Is this an accurate copy of what was filed with 6 the IRS? 7 A I would assume so. 8 Q Do you have any reason -- 9 A I would need to see -- I would need to see a 10 signed copy in order to know that for sure. 11 Q Okay. 12 THE COURT: Well, I take it this is what you 13 produced. 14 THE WITNESS: I believe this may be. 15 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, it is. This was faxed to 16 me from the CPA in Jacksonville, whose name appears 17 here, pursuant to a request by Ms. Brooks. 18 THE COURT: Okay. So you have no reason to 19 doubt -- 20 THE WITNESS: I would assume it is, yes, 21 your Honor. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And the CPA is in Jacksonville. That's because 24 Mr. Merrett found the CPA for you? 25 A Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1172 1 Q Okay. Now, the Lisa McPherson Trust was 2 incorporated by me at the request of Mr. Minton, correct? 3 I filed the papers for the trust? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. It's incorporated as a for-profit 6 corporation? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And Mr. Minton funded the corporation, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And that fund by Mr. Minton, was it a loan or a 11 gift? 12 A It was a loan. 13 Q All of the money? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. So turn to page -- and it was a loan to 16 the corporation? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. Turn to what's numbered at the top in the 19 right-hand corner page 5, and look at line 19. 20 THE COURT: Page 5? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 22 MR. FUGATE: There's a fax page 5 and 23 there's a form page 4. 24 MR. DANDAR: Fax page 5, form page 4. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1173 1 Q Loan from shareholders -- 2 THE COURT: Wait a second. I want to make 3 sure I have the right -- oh, okay, I have got it, fax 4 page 5, form page 4. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q "Loan from shareholders" is blank. Is that 7 correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Can you explain to us why Mr. Minton's loans are 10 not placed there? 11 A I would imagine because he wasn't a shareholder 12 when this was done. 13 Q When did he cease -- 14 A I'm not sure. 15 Q -- being a shareholder? 16 A Perhaps March. 17 Q What year? 18 A Of 2000. I'm not -- I'm not sure about that, but 19 I believe that's the case. 20 Q And this corporation that shows -- this corporate 21 return that shows no income whatsoever but an $829,449 22 loss, was that taken by you as a personal loss on your 2000 23 return? 24 A No. 25 Q This is a Sub S corporation, isn't it?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1174 1 A Does it say that somewhere on this form? 2 Q Well, let me just ask you if you're aware of 3 that. 4 A I don't know what that means. 5 THE COURT: If it was 1120-S, it would say 6 1120-S. It doesn't. I mean, I don't know if it's 7 Subchapter S or not. But most of the time, people say 8 1120 or 1120-S. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 10 THE COURT: So I'm going to assume from 11 looking at this that it is an 1120, which means it's a 12 regular corporation. 13 MR. DANDAR: I think there are corporate 14 returns somewhere in the pile of exhibits. 15 THE COURT: There's a huge difference. 16 1120-S, the loss flows through to an individual. On 17 an 1120, it does not. 18 MR. DANDAR: Right. 19 THE COURT: So if this is an 1120 and 20 neither she nor Mr. Minton took this as a loss, it's 21 probably improper. 22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 23 THE COURT: If it's an 1120-S, they would 24 have some ability to flow the loss through to their 25 1040.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1175 1 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 2 THE COURT: Did you know that I worked for 3 the IRS? 4 MR. DANDAR: This is wonderful. I didn't 5 know that. 6 THE COURT: Yes. I was an agent. That's 7 why I understand about income tax. 8 MR. DANDAR: Great. Okay. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Now, one thing I wanted to clear up. When Jesse 11 Prince was looking for an attorney for the thing that 12 happened to him, the tampering with the witness, I referred 13 him to Mr. McGowan. Is that correct? 14 A When he was looking for an attorney to sue 15 Scientology? 16 Q Right. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Right. And you and I and Mr. Prince went to 19 Mr. McGowan's office for a conference, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And then when the LMT got sued in the 22 breach of contract case before Judge Baird, isn't it true 23 that you called me up and asked me for a referral to an 24 attorney, and I referred you to Mr. McGowan after I first 25 talked to him to see if he was interested in representing
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1176 1 you or the LMT? Isn't that correct? 2 A You say it with a lot of forcefulness, and so it 3 may be. 4 Q You don't remember that? 5 A I don't, really. 6 Q It's just a few months ago, isn't it? 7 A Okay. I don't remember that. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I'm not saying it didn't happen, Mr. Dandar. 10 Q Okay. Now, did you ever tell me that you were a 11 spy for Mr. Minton whenever you would come to my office and 12 I would ask you questions as a consultant? 13 A I didn't characterize it that way. 14 Q Why do you characterize it that way in your 15 affidavit of April 29th -- 16 A Because it's -- 17 Q 2000? 18 A Because it's basically what I was. 19 THE COURT: Is that -- "eyes and ears," is 20 that the spy? 21 MR. DANDAR: She used the word "spy." 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Did you not? As well as eyes and ears in your 24 affidavit of 2002. 25 A Yes, I did, and I believe you were acutely aware
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1177 1 of the fact that I was reporting everything to Mr. Minton, 2 and that's why you would couch everything that you would 3 say to me the way you did, Mr. Dandar. 4 Q So you weren't a very good spy if I knew you were 5 being a spy then, were you? Are you saying that I knew you 6 were a spy? 7 A That's your position. 8 Q Are you saying that I knew you were a spy for 9 Mr. Minton? 10 A You knew that everything that you were saying to 11 me was being reported to Mr. Minton. 12 Q Okay. 13 A And that's why you didn't like talking to me very 14 much. 15 Q Isn't it true in 1998 you introduced me to Jesse 16 Prince? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And isn't it true the first time that Jesse 19 Prince came into my office was when you and he were 20 reviewing the Lisa McPherson PC folders? 21 A That could be. 22 Q And isn't it true that that happened in November 23 of 1998? 24 A That could be. 25 Q And from those -- your examination with
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1178 1 Mr. Prince for a few days of the PC folders, you and 2 Mr. Prince told me to go ahead and get the 1995 folders 3 only at that point in time. 4 A Why do we -- what was the -- what were we doing 5 at that time? Can you refresh my memory? 6 Q You don't remember? 7 A Why -- 8 Q You were reviewing the PC folders. Do you 9 remember that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q In my office on O'Brien Street? 12 A In the conference room. 13 Q Right, the three-story building that has no 14 elevator? Do you remember that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And isn't it true that at that time I was 17 not paying you at all? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And I didn't pay Mr. Prince to do that either. 20 Isn't that true? 21 A I don't know. I know what he was being paid by 22 Mr. Minton directly. I thought he was also being paid by 23 you then. Perhaps you didn't start paying him until 24 December. 25 Q Do you have any idea when I started to pay
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1179 1 Mr. Prince? 2 A Do I have any idea why? 3 Q Yes -- when. 4 A I believe it was at the end of -- end of 1998 or 5 perhaps it was at the beginning of '99. 6 Q Did you give me orders to hire Mr. Prince? 7 A Did I? No. 8 Q Did anyone give me an order to hire Mr. Prince as 9 an expert witness? 10 A As I understand it, I think Mr. Minton strongly 11 suggested that you should. 12 Q When did that take place? 13 A I don't remember. When did you hire him as an 14 expert? 15 Q Would it surprise you to know that I decided -- I 16 am the only one that decided to hire Mr. Prince? 17 A That would surprise me. 18 Q Really. And when did I -- when did Mr. Minton 19 suggest strongly that I hire Mr. Prince? 20 A Beginning -- before he came to Clearwater in '98. 21 Q So you don't know that I actually retained 22 Mr. Prince in June of 1998? You don't know that, do you? 23 A I just said I don't remember when. 24 Q Okay. 25 A But I know that Mr. Minton was supporting him,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1180 1 either directly or indirectly, since July of 1998, which is 2 what I testified to. 3 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I do have an 4 objection to the form that's being utilized. He's 5 testifying and asking the witness is it true or not 6 and then commenting. And I don't think that's what we 7 anticipated, nor did I think the Court anticipated 8 that. If he's got questions, he asks questions. But 9 he testifies and then says "isn't that true" or "you 10 didn't know that." 11 THE COURT: Actually, to some extent that's 12 what a leading question is. You know, a leading 13 question is just sort of that. It's a lawyer 14 testifying. 15 MR. FUGATE: I understand that. But in this 16 particular instance, I just object to that being 17 utilized in the form of his stating things as a fact. 18 THE COURT: If in fact he -- if in fact he 19 does not testify, I will not take any of that as 20 testimony from Mr. Dandar. 21 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. 22 THE COURT: But he can lead this witness. 23 As a matter of fact, leading questions are -- 24 MR. FUGATE: I have no problem with that, 25 Judge. It's just that when he testifies, "you didn't
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1181 1 know anything about that," that's testimony. That's 2 not cross-examination, in my judgment. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Just for the record, you used the word "spy" in 5 paragraph 22 of your April 2002 affidavit. Is that 6 correct? 7 A Let me take a look, Mr. Dandar. 8 Q All right. Right after you say "eyes and ears." 9 A Sorry? 10 Q Right after you say "eyes and ears." 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. 13 THE COURT: In paragraph 22? Oh, I see it, 14 okay. Thank you. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, when I first met you and your 17 husband in the spring of 1997 in Seattle, you did not want 18 to participate at all in being my consultant in the Lisa 19 McPherson case. Isn't that correct? 20 A I don't recall that that was the case. 21 Q Do you recall that it was your husband, Vaughn 22 Young, that wanted to be the expert and help me as an 23 expert or a consultant in the Lisa McPherson case? 24 A Would you like me to tell you what I recall? 25 Q No, just yes or no is all I need.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1182 1 A Okay. What was the question again? 2 Q Isn't it true that your husband, Vaughn, is the 3 one that wanted to be my expert and consultant in the Lisa 4 McPherson case? When I first met you -- 5 A Okay. It's true that Mr. Young wanted to be your 6 consultant. That is true. 7 Q And isn't it true that he actually testified on 8 behalf of the estate as an expert in Scientology practices? 9 A I believe he was deposed and filed a declaration. 10 Q And didn't he also participate in a video trial 11 deposition because of his progressive cancer to preserve 12 his testimony for trial? 13 A Oh. Well, okay. I thought that was a 14 deposition, but if that was what it was, that's fine. I 15 attended. 16 Q Now, isn't it true that your husband, Vaughn 17 Young, as my expert slash consultant is the one that 18 educated me on Scientology when I first visited up there in 19 the spring of 1997 at Seattle, Washington? 20 A It's true that he did that. 21 Q Isn't it true that he also helped draft many 22 paragraphs of the first amended complaint that deal with 23 Scientology? 24 A I believe that is true. 25 Q Which also included --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1183 1 THE COURT: Are you getting ready to look at 2 the first amended -- 3 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 4 THE COURT: -- complaint? 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Which also includes paragraph 12 -- 8 THE WITNESS: Are we done with this now? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are. Let me take that 10 away. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Wait, wait, wait. 12 There's something underneath that. 13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Do you need that? 14 THE WITNESS: Do I? 15 MR. DANDAR: Do you need to read that? 16 THE COURT: Is that the one that was mine? 17 THE WITNESS: This was filed -- oh, yes, 18 this is yours. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q In fact, the one you just handed back to the 21 Judge, that was a declaration of yours from another case 22 that you had given me -- 23 THE WITNESS: I need it back. Thank you. 24 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1184 1 Q -- that you had given me to support the estate's 2 motion to add on David Miscavige as a defendant in the 3 case. 4 A I believe so. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Are we done with it now? 7 Q Yes. Yes, we're done with it now. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q So paragraph -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record, which one 12 were we talking about? 13 THE COURT: This is the one that has been 14 filed in this case. 15 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 16 THE COURT: And it's a declaration -- it 17 supposedly was attached to a motion that they're going 18 to provide to us. In other words, this is a 19 declaration of Stacy M. filed in this case, and that's 20 what it says, "Declaration of Stacy M." 21 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And does it have a 22 date on it at the end? 23 THE COURT: It does not that I can see. 24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, let me correct you. 25 That's a declaration from another case that was filed
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1185 1 in this case, attached to the motion to add. 2 THE COURT: 13th of March of 1997 -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 4 THE COURT: -- in Seattle. That's the date 5 of this declaration. But as I understand, it was 6 attached to a motion -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: -- filed in this case. And 9 you're now saying it was a motion to add David 10 Miscavige. 11 MR. DANDAR: Yes. But that particular 12 declaration came from another case where Ms. Young, 13 Ms. Brooks, was an expert witness. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Do you remember the name of the case, Ms. Brooks? 17 THE WITNESS: Could I have it back? 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 A If you would just let me look at it for a minute, 20 I can probably tell you. 21 MR. WEINBERG: While she's looking, the 22 motion you're talking about is your September 7, '99 23 motion to add David Miscavige? 24 MR. DANDAR: Probably. 25 THE COURT: Well, there were a couple, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1186 1 think. One was granted and one was denied. 2 THE WITNESS: Oh. I think this was the one 3 that was filed in the Wollersheim case, your Honor. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Okay. And that talks about the corporate 6 structure as being on paper only, otherwise ignored in 7 practice? 8 A Yes. 9 Q All right. That was a truthful declaration, 10 correct? 11 A It was true. 12 Q Thank you. Now -- 13 A To the best of my belief. 14 Q All right. When -- when you started to meet with 15 Mr. Rosen in March of 2002 and thereafter with Ms. Yingling 16 and Mr. Rinder -- 17 THE COURT: Are we done going through her 18 affidavit? 19 MR. DANDAR: No. 20 THE WITNESS: I thought that's what we were 21 going to do. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Well, I'm going to come right back to that, 24 because this reminded me -- 25 A Are we done with this one?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1187 1 Q I'm sorry. First amended complaint, 2 paragraph 12, talks about David Miscavige running all of 3 Scientology, doesn't it. 4 A Let me just read it, okay? 5 Q All right. 6 A Okay. 7 Q Is that what it talks about? 8 A And this is -- what is this? The first amended 9 complaint? 10 Q Right. 11 A Okay. 12 Q Isn't it true that that paragraph was drafted by 13 your former husband, Mr. Young, back in the spring of 1997? 14 A I don't -- either I don't know or I don't 15 remember. 16 Q Okay. And if it was drafted by Mr. Young back in 17 the spring of 1997, it was certainly before you, I, or 18 Mr. Young ever met personally and talked to Mr. Minton, 19 correct? 20 A It -- I'm not sure what you're saying. I never 21 met Mr. Minton until October -- or, November actually. 22 Q Okay. 23 THE COURT: Of '97? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1188 1 Q Now, the question that I have is that in 2 paragraph 23, you talk about -- 3 MR. FUGATE: Of what? 4 A Of the affidavit? 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Now we're back to the affidavit of April 2002, 7 paragraph 22. 8 A Twenty-two? 9 Q Yes. You talk about being my consultant in the 10 Lisa McPherson case. And you have been my consultant in 11 the Lisa McPherson case, correct? 12 THE COURT: Are you -- are you skipping over 13 some of the paragraphs in between? 14 MR. DANDAR: I hope not. 15 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. I think we've 16 done it. 17 THE COURT: Have we? Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: Twenty-two, yes. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You have been my consultant in the Lisa McPherson 21 case, correct? 22 A Yes, you had hired me, along with Vaughn, my 23 husband, in 1997, both of us. 24 Q And in fact, do you recall that I only sent one 25 check that had your name on it and your husband's name on
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1189 1 it? All the other checks just had Vaughn's name on it. Do 2 you recall that? 3 A I don't, but it would be in keeping with the way 4 Vaughn and I always used to get paid. The checks didn't 5 need to be paid to both of us. We had a joint account. 6 Q Okay. Now, when you handed over my work product 7 letter of -- Exhibit 73, I believe, of the defense, where I 8 talked about Miscavige and what evidence do you have and 9 make sure that I had enough evidence to add him on or to 10 consider him as a party defendant, in May of 1997, that 11 letter that you handed over to the Church of Scientology -- 12 A They already had a copy, Mr. Dandar. 13 Q Well, I'm not so sure. How would they get a copy 14 of that letter? 15 A I'm not sure. I'm not sure. 16 Q Do you recall testifying last week that you 17 handed it -- you went to Atlanta to get that letter -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- and handed it to them? 20 THE COURT: She also testified she thought 21 they had it. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And did they have it? 24 A I believe they did. 25 Q So when you handed them this letter, they said,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1190 1 "Oh, here, we've already got another copy right here"? 2 A No, they didn't say that. 3 Q Well, how did you come to say now that you think 4 they already had that letter? 5 A I didn't say that now; I said that last week. 6 Q Well, whenever you said that the first time. 7 What makes you say that? What are you basing that on? 8 A My recollection. 9 Q And who produced that letter that you saw for you 10 to testify that they already had the letter that I sent to 11 you and your husband in May of '97? 12 A I believe it was part of papers that Mr. Rinder 13 provided to us. 14 Q What date? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q Saturday after Judge Schaeffer's hearing? 17 A No. It was much later. 18 Q Did you ask them how they got that letter? 19 A No, I didn't. 20 THE COURT: But you did tell us that you 21 weren't surprised that they had it. 22 THE WITNESS: I wasn't, your Honor. And to 23 be -- to tell you the truth, it's possible that I 24 turned it over in earlier discovery, but I don't 25 recall. I do know that I was --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1191 1 THE COURT: You weren't suggesting that you 2 weren't surprised because you thought they got it out 3 of your house or your husband's house or Mr. Dandar's 4 office? 5 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't think that. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Now, you retained an attorney for the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust in paragraph 23, John Merrett, that 9 Patricia Greenway referred you to, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And she found him on the Internet chat channel, 12 correct? 13 A That's what she told me. 14 Q All right. Now, you say here that Mr. Merrett 15 is, quote, "an extension of Mr. Dandar." What do you mean 16 by that? 17 A Well, I think -- I think it speaks for itself in 18 this paragraph. 19 THE COURT: What paragraph are we on? I'm 20 sorry. 21 MR. DANDAR: Twenty-three. 22 THE WITNESS: We're on 23 now. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 MR. DANDAR: Bottom of 23, four lines from 25 the bottom.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1192 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q So he's an extension of Mr. Dandar simply 4 because, quote, "he's coordinating with him on pleadings he 5 filed and arguments he made"? 6 A Well, if you recall, you were concerned about 7 representing everybody and thought it would be a good idea 8 for us to get another attorney. 9 Q In fact, I only represented the LMT once, and 10 that was before Judge Penich on a restraining order, is 11 that correct, that Mr. Howd and the Church of Scientology 12 filed against Mr. Minton and the LMT? 13 THE COURT: We know you were the 14 representative to file the corporate papers. 15 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's true. That's one 16 time. 17 THE COURT: Well, that's then another time. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q All right. Is that the only time I represented 20 the LMT, the incorporation papers in that one hearing with 21 Judge Penich in early 2000, I told you -- 22 A You certainly represented -- 23 MR. FUGATE: I object to that because it 24 misstates -- that question misstates the record in 25 this case.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1193 1 THE COURT: I only know of those two times. 2 There may be more, I don't know, but that's all I know 3 of at this point. So I'm going to overrule it based 4 on my knowledge at this point. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Is there any other time that I represented the 7 LMT that you know? 8 A Well, I believe you represented me and 9 Mr. Minton. I'm not sure about the corporation. 10 Q When did I represent you? 11 A Well, there were a number of times when there 12 were hearings and you were the only attorney. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And you -- you were concerned about being the 15 only attorney representing everybody and thought it would 16 be a good idea to have another attorney to separate things 17 out. 18 Q Are you -- from this statement in your affidavit, 19 are you inferring that I was in control of Mr. Merrett? 20 A Did I say that? 21 Q No. I'm asking if you're inferring that. 22 A I would be implying that, but I don't believe I 23 am. 24 Q All right. You're not implying that, right? 25 A I don't believe I said that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1194 1 Q Okay. All right. And by the way, you mentioned 2 or the Court mentioned this, and I just want to clear 3 something up. Isn't it true that I have never participated 4 in a picket of Scientology except the vigils that were held 5 in honor of Lisa McPherson that were held in the evening 6 that were not pickets? 7 A What about the one outside the criminal 8 courthouse, Ken? 9 Q Was that a picket? Is that your testimony? I 10 need to clarify that. 11 THE COURT: You sure it wasn't a vigil? 12 MR. DANDAR: No. It was just a picture. It 13 wasn't a picket. I wasn't holding a sign. 14 THE COURT: Whatever it was, Mr. Dandar, 15 until this case is over, I would hope that I don't 16 have to see them again. 17 MR. DANDAR: But I'm not -- 18 THE COURT: Do what you want to do, but 19 frankly, I didn't like it when I saw it. I still 20 don't like it. I don't think it's appropriate for 21 lawyers to be pictured like that. So whatever it was, 22 in all candor, I think it ought not be lawyers 23 representing people participating in it. 24 I mean, it's a First Amendment, you can do 25 it. You have every right to do it. So does everybody
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1195 1 else. But I don't think lawyers ought to be out 2 carrying signs. I don't think it's a good thing. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, I was not carrying a 5 sign at the courthouse? 6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't think he 7 was actually carrying a sign. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: But he was walking with us 10 carrying signs. 11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I thought I saw you 12 with a sign. 13 MR. DANDAR: Would you like to see the 14 picture? 15 THE COURT: Yes. The one out in front of 16 the courthouse or the one in Clearwater? 17 MR. DANDAR: No, just the one in front of 18 the criminal complex after Mr. Minton came out of a 19 hearing. We stood there and had our picture taken. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, now, you know, 21 Counselor, here I'm looking at "Lisa's blood on 22 Scientology's hands. Scientology, Hubbard's Third 23 Reich." And here's a lawyer. I mean, I just don't 24 know. If it were me, when I was a lawyer, I wouldn't 25 have been in that picture. I mean, you know, you have
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1196 1 a First Amendment right to be -- those are not signs 2 that lawyers ought to be taking pictures with, in my 3 humble opinion. 4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I am not holding -- 5 THE COURT: It will have nothing to do with 6 my decision in this case. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: I think it was in poor taste. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q I am not holding a picket sign, for the record, 11 correct? 12 A Yes. I just told the judge that. 13 Q All right. Now, you recall that there was a 14 great concern by you and Mr. Minton in the year 2000 and 15 2001 to set the record straight in this court as to the 16 involvement of the LMT and Mr. Minton with the wrongful 17 death case? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And Mr. Minton and you both signed affidavits 20 talking about the -- denying that there was any agreement 21 between the estate and Mr. Minton and the LMT? 22 A Yes, Mr. Dandar, we did. 23 Q And isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that those 24 affidavits were prepared by your attorney, Mr. Merrett? 25 A I'm not sure if they were prepared by him or you.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1197 1 We were up in New Hampshire, and you're the one that wanted 2 us to sign them. I know that for sure. Whether you and 3 Mr. -- 4 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: I was just going to say, is the 6 answer you don't know? You don't know who prepared 7 it? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 10 A I mean, I assumed it was you. It may have been 11 him. But it was certainly -- whether it was you or him, it 12 was at your behest. You're the one that was talking to 13 Mr. Minton about the need to sign it. You're the one that 14 got Mr. Minton to sign a false affidavit. You're the one 15 that told him to lie. 16 THE COURT: You're really well past the 17 question. The question is whether or not Mr. Merrett 18 prepared -- 19 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: The answer to that is "I don't 21 know." Then that's where that can stop. I mean, I've 22 heard this other before, so I don't need to hear it 23 again. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry, your Honor. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1198 1 Q Let's jump -- let's jump to August of '99. 2 A Jump back. 3 Q In August of '99, you in your affidavit 4 somewhere -- I just don't have a paragraph in front of 5 me -- that you say you and Mr. Minton met me in 6 Philadelphia while I was in Philadelphia in another case 7 taking a doctor's deposition. Do you recall that? 8 A I'm going to find it, if you don't mind. 9 Q All right. 10 A We're going back now. 11 Q I don't think this was covered, so I -- 12 A We're going back to -- 13 MR. FUGATE: Paragraph 12. 14 A Yes. We're going way back. 15 THE COURT: I thought he skipped some 16 paragraphs. I was down to about paragraph 10, and 17 then we jumped to 20. 18 MR. WEINBERG: It's paragraph 12 -- 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 MR. WEINBERG: -- bottom of page 5. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Do you recall that the only thing that happened 24 in Philadelphia was that I met you and Mr. Minton, Rod 25 Keller, and some other folks at -- for dinner?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1199 1 A That is so incorrect. 2 Q Do you recall that we had dinner in Philadelphia? 3 A Yes, I do, and those people were at the dinner, 4 including Charlotte Kates. 5 Q Is that the young girl who had just left 6 Scientology? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And we were accosted or she was accosted by 9 Scientology people from the local Philadelphia Org at the 10 dinner table? 11 A The people that came into the dining room while 12 we were eating. 13 Q And your affidavit states Mr. Minton gave me a 14 check for $250,000 then? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Were you present when he handed me that check? 17 A I believe I was. 18 Q Are you sure? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you know the date of that dinner? 21 A August '99. 22 Q The check is dated after I left Philadelphia. 23 Would that help refresh your memory if I was handed a check 24 at dinner? 25 A I believe he postdated it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1200 1 Q Did you have a discussion with me at that dinner 2 that I wasn't listening to you about how to handle the 3 wrongful death case of Lisa McPherson? 4 A Yes, as I wrote in this. 5 Q And that was in 1999 I wasn't listening to you, 6 correct? 7 A Well, let's see what I said. Mr. Prince and I 8 both felt -- "by then I was not at all happy about the way 9 Mr. Dandar was conducting the wrongful death case." 10 Q Right. So that was August of '99, and I wasn't 11 listening to you in 1998 either, was I? 12 A Did I say that? 13 Q I hadn't been listening to you at all. Isn't 14 that the truth? 15 A No. 16 Q Ever. I have never listened to you. Isn't that 17 the truth? 18 A I don't think so. Otherwise you wouldn't have 19 hired me, Mr. Dandar. 20 Q Isn't it true that I decided not to have you 21 testify in the wrongful death case but rather have your 22 former husband, Mr. Vaughn Young, testify as the expert for 23 the estate? 24 A I believe that was because of my relationship 25 with Mr. Minton.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1201 1 THE COURT: So the answer to the question is 2 yes? 3 THE WITNESS: The answer to the question 4 that you -- that he hired my ex-husband as an expert? 5 THE COURT: No. If we go back to the 6 question -- normally when a lawyer says "isn't it 7 true," they expect the answer to be yes. 8 So go back and read the question to her. 9 (The reporter read back the last question as 10 follows: "Isn't it true that I decided not 11 to have you testify in the wrongful death 12 case but rather have your former husband, 13 Mr. Vaughn Young, testify as the expert for 14 the estate?") 15 THE COURT: You gave your explanation, but I 16 didn't hear your answer. 17 A Yes. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Okay. Now, did you tell me in the spring of '97, 20 the summer of '97, or the fall of '97, any time in 1997, 21 that I should add on as a defendant David Miscavige to the 22 wrongful death case? 23 A Possibly. 24 Q Okay. And if you did, I didn't listen to you 25 then, did I, because he wasn't added on in '97.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1202 1 A Okay. 2 Q Now, when did you first come into contact with 3 Mr. Prince after you left the Church of Scientology? 4 A July of '98. 5 THE COURT: That's the first time you and 6 Mr. Prince met? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, since we've been in 8 Scientology, yes, your Honor. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q In fact, while you were in Scientology and being 11 punished in what's called the Rehabilitation Project Force 12 out in the desert of California, you and Mr. Prince were 13 involved in an isolation watch of a young woman who was 14 psychotic, correct? 15 A Okay. 16 THE COURT: You've got a lot in there. 17 MR. DANDAR: Is that too much? Okay. 18 A That's too much, because part is right and part 19 is not. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Let's go back and make it simple. Isn't it true 22 that you and Mr. Prince participated in an isolation watch 23 while you were both members of the Church of Scientology? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Was that only one time?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1203 1 A Well, it was one -- it wasn't one day. 2 Q But it was one -- 3 A But it was one person. 4 Q One person, okay. Were you friends with 5 Mr. Prince then? 6 A Well, yes. 7 Q And you agree that Mr. Prince when he was -- as 8 an executive at RTC was a lot higher in authority and 9 position than you were in Scientology? 10 THE WITNESS: That's going to be a little 11 bit difficult to answer yes or no to, your Honor -- 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: -- if I might clarify it. 14 THE COURT: You can explain it. 15 A During what I believe was a two-year period when 16 Mr. Prince was DIG External, he was in a higher position 17 than I was during that period of time. During the period 18 of time when I was at ASI, I believe one would say that I 19 was in a higher position than he was, although one could 20 quibble. 21 Q And ASI is a for-profit company, again involved 22 in management of the nonprofit churches? 23 A It did. 24 Q And that's because David Miscavige was the 25 chairman of the board of ASI at that particular time,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1204 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. And that -- he was also the captain of the 4 Sea Org at that particular time, correct? 5 A I'm not sure, but he had a -- he had another job 6 that he was still dealing with, which he had had prior to 7 the establishment of ASI, which was called Special Project 8 IC -- or, no, Special Project Up, sorry. 9 Q Let's jump to Mr. Prince out of Scientology, 10 you're out of Scientology. You said -- 11 MR. FUGATE: I know we're jumping around, 12 but I never did think I heard a date on this isolation 13 watch that he mentioned. 14 THE COURT: I didn't either. I don't think 15 we ever followed up on that. 16 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, I didn't ask. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Go ahead. What was the date of the isolation 19 watch that Mr. Prince participated in? 20 A I believe it was nineteen eighty- -- maybe 1987 21 or 1988 -- 22 Q Okay. 23 A -- by which time Mr. Prince didn't have a high 24 position anymore. 25 Q Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1205 1 A Neither did I. 2 Q All right. And then Mr. Prince lost his 3 executive position because he was neutral in the power 4 struggle between Mr. Miscavige and Pat Broker when 5 Mr. Hubbard died. Is that correct? 6 MR. FUGATE: I object to the presentation by 7 Mr. Dandar and the factual basis of the leading 8 questions. 9 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 10 Overruled. 11 A That isn't what Mr. Prince told me. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Well, isn't that true? 14 A Well, I don't know. I wasn't there. 15 Q Were you out of Scientology then? Or were you 16 just in a different department? 17 A No, I wasn't at INT. 18 Q Okay. 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what did you say? 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. I 21 wasn't at INT, which is sort of a nickname for the 22 place that's east of LA where a lot of management of 23 Scientology takes place. 24 THE COURT: Is that I-N-T for the record? 25 THE WITNESS: I-N-T. It's short for
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1206 1 "international." 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Now, you first met -- got reacquainted with 5 Mr. Prince when you were both former Scientologists in what 6 month and year? 7 A July '98. 8 Q July '98. And you talked Mr. Prince into going 9 to Colorado to work for FACTNet, correct? 10 A Talked him into it? 11 Q Yes. Did you suggest or talk -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- him into it? 14 A Told him to. 15 Q Okay. And you and he renewed your friendship, 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. Now, I know that you and Prince -- 19 recently Mr. Prince have had a falling out of sorts, 20 correct? 21 A Mr. Prince has had a falling out, I would say. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I haven't. 24 Q All right. While you knew Mr. Prince in 1998, 25 1999, all the way up to April of 2002, you considered him
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1207 1 to be an honest and truthful person? 2 A I like him a lot. 3 Q Is he an honest and truthful person? 4 A No. 5 Q He's a liar? 6 A I -- I know that he has lied to me. 7 Q Okay. About -- is he a liar on Scientology tech, 8 or does he know what he's talking about? 9 A He knows what he's talking about. 10 Q Okay. Now, when he signed an affidavit in the 11 summer of 1999 talking about his experience in Scientology 12 in the upper management with David Miscavige and Marty 13 Rathbun and Mr. Rinder, did you have any basis in fact, any 14 personal -- 15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. I object to that. 16 That's not an accurate statement. It's not what's in 17 the affidavit either, if that makes any difference. 18 THE COURT: What, Mr. Princes's affidavit? 19 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 20 THE COURT: I frankly don't remember. Let's 21 look at it. I thought that at one point in time that 22 Mr. Rathbun and Mr. -- somebody else, not Rinder; 23 Ritman or -- 24 MR. DANDAR: Rathbun. 25 THE COURT: Rathbun.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1208 1 MR. DANDAR: And Rinder. 2 THE COURT: There's Rathbun and there's 3 another one. 4 THE WITNESS: Sutter. Sutter, maybe? 5 THE COURT: No, that's not it. 6 MR. DANDAR: No. 7 THE COURT: Who were the parties that you 8 added besides Miscavige? 9 MR. FUGATE: Mithoff. 10 THE COURT: Mithoff. 11 MR. DANDAR: Mithoff. 12 THE COURT: Mithoff. 13 MR. DANDAR: M-I-T-H-O-F-F. 14 THE COURT: Those are the ones that I 15 thought I read about in Princes's affidavit. 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 17 THE COURT: So is that what you're saying is 18 not factual? 19 MR. FUGATE: That's what I'm saying. It's 20 not in the affidavit. It's not an accurate statement. 21 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to do this faster. 22 Let me withdraw the question. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q You read Mr. Princes's affidavit that's dated 25 August 20th of 1999? Let me just hand you another copy.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1209 1 A Thank you. 2 Q It's already in the record. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you read it carefully? 5 A Some time ago. 6 Q Did you read it after he completed it? 7 A Sometime after he completed it, I did. 8 Q Well, didn't you read it like the day after he 9 completed it? 10 A I don't recall, but -- 11 Q Okay. 12 A -- if you know. 13 Q Didn't it take him like four or five days to 14 write this affidavit? 15 A It probably would have. 16 Q Okay. 17 THE COURT: I guess the real question is, if 18 this was filed the 20th of August of 1999, before it 19 was filed, did you have an opportunity to review it? 20 THE WITNESS: I -- I think I testified 21 earlier, your Honor, I don't recall if I had an 22 opportunity to review it, but I did have several 23 discussions leading up to the writing of it. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And I may have reviewed it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1210 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q You previously testified that you had to put 3 Mr. Prince in the mood to write an affidavit. Is this the 4 affidavit that you had to put him in the mood for? 5 A I don't recall that I said that. 6 Q Okay. I think you did, but if you don't 7 recall -- 8 THE COURT: It was something. I don't know 9 if it was "in the mood." You had to get him riled up 10 or -- 11 THE WITNESS: I think you said that, your 12 Honor. 13 THE COURT: Did I? 14 MR. LIROT: "Right frame of mind," I think, 15 or something. 16 THE COURT: Something. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q How did you get him in the right frame of mind? 19 A Well, Mr. Prince and I had had a number of 20 conversations about our duties as your experts or your 21 consultants or whatever. And we had had a number of 22 discussions about what was needed in the wrongful death 23 case, what our role needed to be in that. 24 Q Did you tell Mr. Prince what he needed to do was 25 lie under oath to help the estate in the wrongful death
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1211 1 case? 2 A No. 3 Q That affidavit in front of you, is that -- after 4 you reviewed it, did you ever go up to Mr. Prince and say, 5 "Hey, what you have in this affidavit is just total lies 6 and you can't say this"? 7 A No, I didn't say it was total lies. I said I 8 thought it was pretty over the top and I wanted -- 9 THE REPORTER: You thought it was what? I'm 10 sorry. 11 THE WITNESS: Over the top. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q What part is over the top? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Could she finish 15 her answer? 16 A And I thought he was going to have a hard time 17 substantiating some of the things that he said. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q What part is over the top? 20 A Okay. Do you want me to read it to you? 21 Q I just want you to read those portions. 22 THE COURT: If it's a long -- 23 THE WITNESS: No, no, it's a short part -- 24 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 25 THE WITNESS: -- that I'm just going to give
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1212 1 as an example here, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Well, now, the question is what 3 parts are over the top, so -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 5 A "Lisa McPherson was held against her will in 6 isolation, and when she did not respond --" 7 THE COURT: Don't go so fast. I'm not even 8 up with you. What page are you on? 9 THE WITNESS: Paragraph 44. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: There are other parts, but 12 I'll just do this one as an example. 13 A "Lisa McPherson was held against her will in 14 isolation, and when she did not respond to Scientology 15 technical handling, Flag, on orders from David Miscavige, 16 Ray Mithoff, and Marty Rathbun, sat mute and watched her 17 die after she no longer had the strength to fight for her 18 freedom. Her death was no accident. It was the chosen 19 option to minimize a public relations flap." 20 Q What's over the top about that? 21 A Well, it -- it didn't align with the experience 22 that Jesse and I had had together on an isolation watch, 23 and I didn't think Jesse had any experience with -- with 24 these people having done that with anyone to be able to say 25 that about Lisa. And I was concerned that Jesse was going
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1213 1 to have to go on the stand as your expert to try to 2 substantiate the motion that you had filed based on Jesse's 3 affidavit, and I felt that you had used Jesse and 4 encouraged him to say things that would -- that would 5 substantiate your claims, that Jesse was going to end up in 6 a really awkward position up on the witness stand when he 7 was cross-examined by Scientology attorneys and couldn't 8 substantiate what he had said. 9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, for the record I 10 would make an objection to Mr. Dandar making faces to 11 the witness, and I want the record to reflect that. 12 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't see it. 13 MR. FUGATE: I'm just stating it from my 14 observation. 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm ignoring it 16 because I know he's very hostile to me. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Don't make faces at the 18 witness. 19 MR. DANDAR: Yes, your Honor. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Ms. Brooks, someone who is held in an isolation 22 watch is held against their will, correct? 23 A Well, someone who is in an isolation watch is in 24 the middle of a psychotic episode, Mr. Dandar. 25 Q Are they free to come and go?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1214 1 A If they insisted on leaving, they would be 2 allowed to. In fact, Mr. Prince was the one who would talk 3 to the parents of this one woman that we were doing 4 together. 5 Q This woman that you and Mr. Prince were watching 6 together, what type of room was she kept in? 7 A A little wooden shed -- 8 Q Outside -- 9 A -- that had -- 10 Q -- correct? 11 A Well, the shed was outside -- 12 Q Okay. 13 A -- but if you were in it, you were inside. 14 Q Okay. Was she in this wooden shed -- this was 15 out in the middle of the desert, right? 16 A Well, all of INT is in the middle of the desert. 17 Q Okay. So this wooden shed is out in the middle 18 of the desert. Is it air-conditioned? 19 A No. 20 Q Is there a lock on the door? 21 A I don't believe so. 22 Q Are there windows? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. So this woman that you and Mr. Prince were 25 watching in this wooden shed, was she free to come and go?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1215 1 A Yes. As a matter of fact, we went with her when 2 she wanted to go. 3 Q Where did she go? 4 A She would walk around the grounds. 5 Q She could go get in a car and go downtown and get 6 a Dairy Queen or a sandwich? 7 A She didn't want to do that, Mr. Dandar. 8 Q In fact, you and Mr. Prince were held in this 9 prison camp. You weren't even allowed to go anywhere, were 10 you. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor, move 12 to strike. And I would ask Mr. Dandar to step back to 13 the podium. 14 THE COURT: You have to step back if you 15 don't have any paper in your hand. And when you start 16 saying things like "prison camps," you're going to 17 bring an objection. So if you want to ask a question 18 about prison camps, fine. If you don't want to ask 19 that question, you have to be careful not to put 20 something offensive in there that's going to draw an 21 objection. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Isn't the RPF a prison camp, Ms. Brooks? 24 A I have characterized it that way. 25 Q And isn't that truthful?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1216 1 A No. 2 Q You were free to leave anytime you wanted to? 3 A Well, as a matter of fact, yes. 4 Q There's no fence around the RPF in Hemet, 5 wherever this is -- 6 A I wasn't on the RPF in Hemet, Mr. Dandar. 7 Q Where this isolation watch took place in the 8 desert, were you on the RPF? 9 A No. 10 Q You were there voluntarily to watch this 11 psychotic woman? 12 A No, I wasn't there for that purpose, but I did 13 voluntarily watch her. 14 Q You weren't ordered to watch her? 15 A I was told to, and I said okay. 16 Q Okay. And Mr. Prince, he was on the RPF at the 17 same time as you, correct? 18 A No. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. She just said at 20 the time she wasn't on the RPF. And then Mr. Dandar 21 says you were on the RPF, Mr. Prince was on the RPF at 22 the same time. If he wants to pick a different time 23 to talk about, fine, but this is misleading. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 MR. DANDAR: My mistake.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1217 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q When you and Mr. Prince were in the isolation 3 watch with this psychotic woman who was in the shed, were 4 you on the RPF? 5 A No. 6 Q And was he on the RPF? 7 A I don't think so. 8 Q Okay. When you were -- when you were on the RPF, 9 were you on the RPF at the same time as Mr. Prince? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. When you were on the RPF, was it in the 12 same location in the desert? 13 A No. 14 Q Where was it at? 15 A In Los Angeles. 16 Q Okay. My mistake. When Mr. Prince was on the 17 RPF, where was his at? 18 A He told me he was on the RPF at INT. 19 Q Okay. That's out in the desert, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. So this woman in the shed, was she free to 22 leave the compound, the Scientology property, and just go 23 whenever she wanted to go? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, asked and 25 answered.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1218 1 THE COURT: I don't think that he asked her 2 if she was free to leave the compound. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well -- 4 MR. MOXON: Lack of foundation, compound. 5 THE COURT: Well, whatever. I'm taking this 6 now more than just walking outside the shed and 7 leaving the whole property. 8 Is that what you're asking? 9 MR. DANDAR: Right. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Was she free to leave the whole property by 12 herself? 13 A If she had insisted on doing so, she would have 14 been allowed to. She never did. 15 Q Now, is there anything else in that affidavit -- 16 when you say "over the top," were you saying that it's a 17 lie or just that it's going to be difficult to prove? What 18 do you mean by that? 19 A Which one do I get to answer? 20 Q The one about paragraph 44. 21 A So do I get to answer what I mean by that? 22 Q Yes. What do you mean by "over the top"? 23 A Okay. What I mean is he's saying things that are 24 pure speculation, that he can't possibly prove. 25 Q Are you aware of Mr. Princes's experience in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1219 1 Scientology where he saw other people -- 2 THE COURT: You know that's better saved for 3 him unless she was there or something. Mr. Prince can 4 talk about that. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q But I have a question. I read where Mr. Minton 9 said on several occasions on the Internet -- he accused the 10 Church of Scientology of murder. Those were his words, 11 murdering Lisa McPherson. You and he were pals, good 12 friends, intimate. How did he get this idea? He wasn't 13 even a Scientologist. I mean, what caused Mr. Minton to 14 say that she was murdered? 15 A Well, your Honor, the entire critic community -- 16 "critic community," Scientology critic community -- 17 believes that Scientology murdered Lisa McPherson. 18 Q Which included you at the time. 19 A It included me. It included everybody. 20 Q Well, what did you base that on? Just you just 21 thought it? 22 A Your Honor, I never said that Scientology 23 murdered Lisa McPherson. 24 Q Okay. Well, I sure saw it on the Internet in 25 this case because that's the only Internet I see where
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1220 1 Mr. Minton said she was murdered. 2 A Well, Mr. Minton has said a number of things on 3 the Internet that I would have preferred that he not say. 4 Q Okay. Well, I guess my -- I don't know where he 5 got that idea, but I would have had to assume he got it 6 from you or Jesse. 7 A Well -- 8 Q You're intimate with him and Jesse is a good 9 friend of his and you all -- apparently the three of you 10 palled around quite a bit. 11 A Right. And he certainly could have gotten it 12 from Jesse's affidavit. But I told Jesse that I would not 13 have worded this the way he did. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Did you tell Jesse that any other part of his 17 affidavit was untruthful? 18 A I asked him about the end cycle thing. I 19 can't -- I don't remember where that was exactly. 20 THE COURT: In paragraph 43, I think. 21 A We had a conversation about his use of -- where 22 is it? Let me just find it. 23 THE COURT: If you'll look down about 24 five -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1221 1 THE COURT: -- sentences up. 2 A Yes. We had a conversation about this end cycle 3 paragraph. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Right. You're not familiar with that term? 6 A I believe you were in the courtroom the other day 7 when I testified about my familiarity with that term, 8 Mr. Dandar. 9 Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Prince -- did you ever 10 talk to him about this, that he might have a different 11 understanding of how upper management at RTC uses that 12 term? 13 A That wouldn't be accurate. 14 Q How do you know since you were never part of the 15 upper management of RTC? 16 A Well, I think Mr. Prince will tell you the same 17 as I will, that the use of a term like "end cycle" doesn't 18 have anything to do with what echelon administratively 19 you're in in Scientology. It's a technical -- 20 Q You're seeing -- 21 A -- term. 22 Q -- that affidavit, and Mr. Prince talks about 23 seeing other written orders by management of Scientology to 24 people to end cycle. Do you recall that in that affidavit? 25 A I don't.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1222 1 Q One of them being his very close friend, who was 2 dying. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just point her out 4 to where it is? 5 THE COURT: Are you talking about -- I'm 6 looking at page 10. Isn't it paragraph 24 that 7 apparently talks about a couple of incidents? 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes, exactly. 9 THE WITNESS: Paragraph 10? No. 10 MR. DANDAR: At the top. 11 THE COURT: I read those two things -- well, 12 go on ahead. I'm going to let her answer the 13 question. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q It talks about two people that you knew where 16 orders were given to end cycle. Do you have any factual 17 basis to know that what he said there at the top of page 10 18 was false? 19 A Well, I thought that that had been a little bit 20 interpretational on his part. 21 Q Factual basis, Ms. Brooks. You have no factual 22 basis, do you, to tell this Court under oath that that's 23 false. 24 A I can tell the Court that I believe it is. 25 Q What is the factual basis for that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1223 1 A My knowledge of Scientology tech. 2 THE COURT: Counsel, when I said you could 3 do this questioning, the purpose of it was to move it 4 along. I thought you could do that. There's no 5 occasion for you to joust or to get angry with this 6 witness. I'm not going to have it -- 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: -- because it's not necessary. 9 If there were a jury here, I would let you all do 10 whatever lawyers do for jurors. I don't need it. 11 MR. DANDAR: I don't think you would, Judge, 12 to be honest with you. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q But it's just your feeling that you don't think 15 that's accurate? Did you tell Mr. Prince that? 16 A M'hum (affirmative). 17 Q You did? 18 A Yes. Sorry, yes, I did. 19 Q Isn't it true, ma'am, that you were so excited 20 about this affidavit that you went and posted it on the 21 Internet? 22 A That I was so excited about this affidavit -- 23 that isn't true. 24 Q Isn't it true that you posted it on the Internet? 25 A I would have to say that that was the habit of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1224 1 Mr. Minton to post things. It was not something that I 2 liked to do. 3 Q Let me see if I can refresh your memory. Do you 4 recall posting this on your computer in my conference room 5 on O'Brien Street on the Internet before we went to court 6 with Judge Moody and I got sanctioned for it? 7 A Yes, I do recall that, actually. 8 Q Thank you. Okay. Now -- 9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me, that 10 is -- that's an inaccurate statement of what happened, 11 and I just object. 12 THE COURT: Well, the -- I think that the -- 13 the refreshing her memory was as to whether or not she 14 posted it. 15 Do you now remember -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: -- that you posted it? 18 THE WITNESS: I do remember that I did. 19 THE COURT: So I don't know what happened in 20 front of Judge Moody, but I don't think that matters. 21 MR. FUGATE: That was the part that I was 22 objecting to. 23 THE COURT: Right. 24 A I believe actually it was you, Mr. Dandar, who 25 was so excited about it that you wanted me to post it
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1225 1 before the hearing so that in case Judge Moody said that it 2 was under seal it would already be out. 3 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. I mean, that's 4 just a voluntarily statement. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. It's not in response 6 to any question. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Now, it's true that I always told you and anyone 9 else that asked that Dell Liebreich knew what was going on 10 in the case? I kept her fully informed of what's going on 11 in the case? 12 A Are we back to my affidavit? 13 Q Yes, we are. I'm sorry, wait a minute. I'm 14 sorry. Before we go, is there anything else in that 15 affidavit that you recall telling Mr. Prince was not true? 16 A I would have to review the whole thing. 17 MR. WEINBERG: That's what's going to be my 18 objection. 19 THE COURT: And I will sustain that. This 20 is -- that's what I was trying to suggest early on 21 when the question was asked. If she was going to be 22 asked to look at it and tell us exactly what she said 23 was not true, you were going to have to give her some 24 time. 25 MR. DANDAR: All right. I would actually
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1226 1 like to have her take it home with the other 2 declarations. 3 THE COURT: Can you take this home with the 4 other declarations to see whether or not you feel 5 there are any other parts of this? 6 I don't think we need to care what she 7 thinks; if she has any knowledge that any of these 8 other things are untrue. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 10 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe the 11 testimony was that she thought things were over the 12 top. We're going from "over the top" to "untrue," and 13 there's a difference. 14 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, in fact, I said 15 that I was concerned that Mr. Prince wouldn't be able 16 to substantiate his allegations under oath or in 17 testimony. 18 THE COURT: Well, let's see. Does that mean 19 then that there's nothing in here that you can testify 20 under oath is false? You just thought that it would 21 be difficult for some of these allegations for him to 22 substantiate. 23 THE WITNESS: And before I could answer that 24 question, I would like to be able to actually review 25 the whole thing.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1227 1 THE COURT: Okay. And that's fair. 2 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Just bring them back. 3 That may be my only copy. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Now -- 6 THE COURT: This -- these two folks that are 7 referred to in Mr. Princes's affidavit, these -- I 8 believe there's three of them, actually. They look to 9 me in reading this as if these folks were very ill. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this is 11 referring back to my testimony earlier where it was a 12 hospice situation. 13 THE COURT: Right. I'm trying to find it. 14 THE WITNESS: It's on page 10. 15 THE COURT: Is this these for the folks that 16 were supposedly told to end the cycle? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. All three of these 19 folks -- 20 THE WITNESS: I only see two. 21 THE COURT: -- had cancer. Well, there's a 22 third one -- 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, Roxanne. 24 THE COURT: -- Roxanne Friend. So it says 25 like -- well, no, let's take the two. Diane Morrison
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1228 1 had cancer, and it says she was instructed to end 2 cycle. And the same with Mr. Cormier. It says 3 Mr. Minkoff sent him orders to end cycle, and he died. 4 I don't know what "end cycle" means necessarily. 5 But it looks to me as if these cases can 6 hardly be compared to what's alleged, Counselor. 7 Maybe this is for you, not this witness. What you 8 have said is that they -- these two people were told 9 something, is what it says. You're suggesting in your 10 complaint that they decided this for another person 11 against her will. So these have nothing to do with 12 that, do they? 13 MR. DANDAR: Well, it's a person -- Lisa 14 McPherson was in what's called an extremis condition, 15 like those other people have in cancer. And instead 16 of going to the doctor, they were told to end cycle. 17 THE WITNESS: That's so inaccurate, though. 18 THE COURT: Yes, I frankly think so too. 19 You need to think about that, because Mr. Princes's 20 affidavit makes it sound -- I thought it was quite 21 different from this. It sounds like someone being 22 allowed to end their life, like Kevorkian with 23 assisted suicide. 24 I mean, it sounds to me like these folks 25 were in bad shape, and they were told that maybe you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1229 1 just want to, you know. I don't know. To me that is 2 different from suggesting in your complaint that the 3 Church was responsible for making a decision for 4 somebody who was incapable of making a decision to 5 die, to let her die. And that's what you said. So 6 I'm not sure these are good examples. 7 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 8 THE COURT: For what it's worth, I'm passing 9 you along some information. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Ms. Brooks, isn't it true that your ex-husband, 12 Vaughn Young, also has the opinion that Lisa McPherson died 13 because it would be bad PR to take her back to the 14 emergency room in the condition she was in towards the last 15 two or three days of her life? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q All right. 18 THE COURT: How can it be bad PR to take 19 somebody back to the emergency room but not bad PR to 20 let them die and then have to take them someplace? It 21 doesn't make any sense. 22 MR. DANDAR: We'll address that somehow I 23 think with Mr. Prince and Mr. Young. 24 THE WITNESS: Are you going to -- 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1230 1 Q Paragraph 27 -- let's go to your affidavit. 2 THE COURT: You have to admit that was bad 3 PR. I mean, they have suffered some bad PR because of 4 Lisa McPherson's death. 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 THE COURT: Bad PR. 7 MR. DANDAR: That's right. 8 THE COURT: I don't know what the PR would 9 have been if they had taken her in the shape she was 10 in to a hospital, but it sure wouldn't have been as 11 bad as this. You'll concede that, Counselor. Maybe 12 not. 13 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. 14 THE COURT: All right. You think about 15 that. 16 MR. DANDAR: I think there are some 17 variables there. She would be alive today, but what 18 she would be doing, I don't know. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Paragraph 27 in your April 2002 affidavit, now 21 you're accusing John Merrett of suborning perjury from you 22 at your deposition. Is that correct? 23 THE COURT: Where are we now? 24 MR. MOXON: Wait, wait. Where are we? 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1231 1 Q Paragraph 27 of your affidavit, you're accusing 2 Mr. Merrett, your attorney, of sitting there and knowing 3 that you were testifying falsely. What did you testify 4 falsely about that Mr. Merrett knew? 5 A I believe he knew that Mr. Minton was the source 6 of the LMT funds. 7 Q Did you know when you testified that Mr. Minton 8 was the source of the LMT funds? 9 A No. 10 Q What did you think were the source of LMT funds? 11 A Well, I'd gotten a check from Operation Clambake. 12 Q Well, before that, you'd gotten checks from 13 Mr. Minton from the LMT, though, didn't you? 14 A Yes, but I was answering your other question. 15 Q Okay. The Clambake check came in the summer of 16 2001. Am I correct or not? 17 A I don't remember when it came. I think it was 18 earlier than that, though. 19 Q Okay. Well, the source of the funds for the year 20 2000, that was Mr. Minton, correct? 21 A I believe so. 22 Q And you knew that. I mean, you saw him put the 23 check in the LMT bank account. 24 A I did? I don't -- what did you -- 25 Q Did you? Start over. Isn't it true that you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1232 1 knew when the LMT was formed in '99 that Mr. Minton was the 2 sole shareholder of the LMT? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you knew in '99 that Mr. Minton was the sole 5 source of funds for the LMT at that particular point in 6 time? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And the year 2000, you knew that Mr. Minton was 9 the sole source of funds for the LMT, correct? 10 A I only hesitate because I'm not sure about the 11 dates when the other monies came in, but I -- but assuming 12 that those other monies came in in 2001, if -- if it's the 13 case that the other monies came in in 2001, as you're 14 saying, then yes. 15 MR. DANDAR: Judge, could we have the 16 Clambake -- you know, do you have the Clambake 17 check -- checking account that was sent over? Don't 18 have a date on it. 19 THE COURT: Oh, you mean this -- 20 MR. DANDAR: From Norway. 21 THE COURT: I think I threw it in the 22 wastebasket. 23 MR. LIROT: The Hague Convention. 24 THE COURT: Hague Convention. Here it is. 25 MR. DANDAR: I might be wrong, but I think
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1233 1 we have the date, even though everything else is in 2 Norwegian. 3 THE COURT: 4/6/01. 4 MR. DANDAR: So that would be April 6th, 5 '01. 6 THE COURT: The truth of the matter, we 7 don't know what that means. 8 THE WITNESS: What, your Honor? 9 MR. HOWIE: Point of correction, your Honor. 10 In Norway, they state the date, then the month, then 11 the year. 12 THE COURT: 4/1/06? 13 MR. WEINBERG: No. It's probably June 4th. 14 MR. McGOWAN: They do a day, a month, a 15 year. 16 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q I think we can extrapolate the word "debiturt" to 19 mean "debit" of almost $300,000, and that is on June 4th of 20 2001. 21 A Okay. 22 Q All right. 23 A So then what you're saying is correct. 24 Q So Mr. Minton funded the LMT in the year 2000. 25 A Yes, to the best of my belief.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1234 1 Q The Clambake money was the first money coming 2 from a third party as far as you know, correct? 3 A As far as I knew. I believe that's the case. 4 Q And in January of '98 you started -- 5 A But -- 6 Q I'm sorry. 7 A But there was other money that came in that might 8 have come in before that money. 9 Q Same year? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. 2001? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So Mr. Minton funded the LMT in '99 and 2000? 14 A Yes, to the best of my knowledge. 15 Q Okay. All right. 16 THE COURT: What was your point? 17 MR. DANDAR: Well, here's my point. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You have been paid by Mr. Minton as his assistant 21 since January of '98. Is that correct? 22 A Well, I've been supported by Mr. Minton since 23 then. 24 Q Okay. And I'm going to give you this because I 25 need you to clarify something. In your deposition of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1235 1 June 23rd, 2000 -- that's six months after the LMT opened 2 for business on Fort Harrison Avenue -- on page 221, you 3 were asked this question: 4 "You were working for the Lisa McPherson Trust at 5 the time you were doing this, correct?" And I think 6 they're talking about picketing. 7 You said: "No." 8 Question: "You were being paid by Mr. Minton at 9 the time you were doing this?" 10 Your answer was: "No." 11 Were those both truthful answers? 12 A Can I see what you're looking at? 13 Q Sure. 14 A Do you want me to just read it over there? 15 Q Yes. You probably need to read a couple pages. 16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: Can I take a minute? 19 THE COURT: Sure. 20 Did we break this afternoon? I guess we 21 did. 22 MR. MOXON: No, I don't think so. 23 THE COURT: Soon now. 24 MR. DANDAR: It's only -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, we could break while I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1236 1 read this, if you want to. 2 MR. WEINBERG: The problem with this is 3 there's no date that would indicate, at least on that 4 page, when -- 5 THE COURT: Well, let's break, and let's let 6 her read and see whether or not she's able to respond 7 to that question. And if she can't, she can't. 8 THE WITNESS: And, your Honor, what was the 9 question again? 10 MR. DANDAR: Is that a truthful statement, 11 what's highlighted there. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 THE COURT: We'll be in recess. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: For how long, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Fifteen minutes. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you. 17 THE COURT: Maybe we'll work a little late 18 tonight, like an hour. I'd like to see if we can 19 finish. I'm kidding myself. 20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, if I'm allowed to ask 21 questions, we can go tomorrow too. 22 THE COURT: What do you mean? 23 MR. DANDAR: The only reason we have to take 24 tomorrow off is because of Mr. Lirot's schedule. 25 THE COURT: Suits me. I'd like to get done.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1237 1 You all talk about it among yourselves. I've got 2 nothing to do. My secretary has a pile to sign. 3 She's going to be killed, but I can go tomorrow. You 4 all talk about it. 5 But, yes, you can ask questions. You can 6 ask questions direct. Not of yourself. 7 MR. DANDAR: I can do that too if you let 8 me. 9 THE COURT: No, I won't allow that. 10 (A short break was taken.) 11 THE COURT: You may continue. 12 Let's take tomorrow off. 13 MR. WEINBERG: That would be nice. 14 THE COURT: We're going to take tomorrow 15 off. My secretary tells me I've got the papers 16 stacked and she need some orders signed and I have 17 lawyers calling. That'll work. We'll do three days, 18 then I'll take Monday off, go to Tallahassee. So, you 19 know, three days, break -- 20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 21 THE COURT: -- three days, break. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 THE COURT: -- three days, a break. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: It's like a broken record.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1238 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- just to be clear, does 2 that mean we're definitely taking Monday off? 3 THE COURT: I'm afraid so. I couldn't get 4 out of it. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q I just want to ask you a question before we get 7 back to your deposition. Do you recall being interviewed 8 and your interview being aired by 60 Minutes? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you recall in that interview on 60 Minutes 11 that you said you were a prisoner in RPF? 12 A I may have said that. 13 Q Is that a truthful statement when you said it on 14 national T.V.? 15 A I said it to create a certain effect, and I think 16 it did. 17 Q You did -- I'm sorry, what? 18 A I said I said it to create a certain effect, a 19 certain impression, and I believe it did. 20 Q So was it truthful or a lie? 21 A I believed it to be the case. 22 Q Okay. Now, let's talk about that deposition. 23 Did you have a chance to read it? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Are those truthful statements in your
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1239 1 deposition? 2 MR. McGOWAN: Make a record on this, which 3 page, which line. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. DANDAR: We did that, but . . . 6 THE COURT: Well, I've forgotten. 7 MR. DANDAR: I'd have to look at it. What 8 page have I highlighted? Page 221, lines 16 through 9 21 in the deposition of Stacy Brooks taken June 23rd, 10 2000. 11 A No. Oh. Yes, they were. When he asked if I was 12 being paid by Minton, I considered that I had been 13 supported by him, so I said no. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q There's a difference between being supported and 16 being paid? 17 A I considered so at the time. 18 Q All right. So when you said -- in your mind, 19 when you answered that, being supported by Mr. Minton and 20 the money that you received by Mr. Minton, is that reported 21 to the Internal Revenue Service or is that a gift? 22 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, the second part of 23 that calls for a legal conclusion. The first part of 24 it is maybe something she can answer. 25 MR. DANDAR: He's correct.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1240 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. DANDAR: Withdrawn. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q The being supported by Mr. Minton, is that 5 something that you reported as income to the IRS? 6 A When? What year? This thing isn't clear when 7 we're talking about. 8 Q '98 and '99. 9 A So this -- I read several pages before and after, 10 but it -- it never became clear what time period we were 11 talking about here. Now -- 12 Q Isn't it true in your deposition you didn't ask 13 anyone to clarify what time that was being talked about? 14 A Well, it seems to be that everyone knew. But 15 he's talking about a photograph of me -- 16 Q And it's in the front. 17 MR. DANDAR: May I approach and show her? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q It's right here, all these photographs. 22 A But he's talking about different times when we 23 were picketing. And you know, this is not the photo he's 24 referring to here. 25 Q All right. Which one is he referring to?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1241 1 A It's not clear. Well, it wasn't clear to me from 2 the transcript. You may be able to show me. Talking about 3 a light blue T-shirt. 4 Q On page 220, it says you and Robert Minton are 5 picketing. Robert Minton is carrying a sign, "Scientology, 6 Hubbard's Third Reich." 7 A Okay. Let's see if we can find a picture of him 8 doing that. Okay. 9 Q By a building. 10 A T-shirt. That's Bob Minton standing next to me, 11 but that's -- see, he's not standing next to me there. 12 Q Go to where there's a Third Reich poster and 13 there's a building. 14 A Okay. Is that that one? 15 Q Right. 16 A Okay. 17 MR. DANDAR: And for the record, we're 18 looking at Brooks' Exhibit 11 in the June 23, 2000, 19 deposition. 20 A Okay. So then if he says I was working for the 21 Lisa McPherson Trust at the time of this photo, and is this 22 the date of that photo? No, no. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q No. 25 A That's the date of that depo.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1242 1 Q Right. 2 A So what's the date of this photo? 3 Q Do you know? If you don't know -- apparently you 4 did in the deposition, correct, because you didn't ask 5 anyone to identify the date of the photograph while the 6 deposition was being taken. 7 A Well, in any case . . . 8 Q Okay. Well, did you recognize the building in 9 the photograph with you and Bob in front of this building, 10 Exhibit 11 to your deposition? 11 A It's later, I think. I don't really, but I think 12 he said what it was somewhere here. 13 Q Somewhere down here. 14 A Okay. Who was the -- is it the Hacienda Gardens? 15 I don't know. 16 Q On page 221, line 5, you said that staff members 17 live in the building. It's the Church of Scientology 18 building. 19 MR. FUGATE: If you look at 219, it has the 20 building name if that will help. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q All right. Let's look at 219. 23 A Does it say Hacienda Gardens? Okay. I remember 24 that. 25 Q Do you know when that was?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1243 1 A I don't. It was before the LMT. I don't 2 remember. 3 Q All right. 4 A But in any case . . . 5 Q All right. It's before the LMT, right? 6 A It was before the LMT, so, you know, that's why I 7 answered the way I did. 8 Q All right. So when you answered, "No, I haven't 9 been paid by Minton," to you that's a truthful answer even 10 though you were receiving financial support by Mr. Minton? 11 MR. McGOWAN: It's been asked and answered, 12 your Honor. 13 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 14 A But I don't -- this is the problem I'm having 15 with it. Without being able to date that photo, I'm not 16 sure what my financial circumstance was. So I'm not able 17 to answer the question. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Well, if it's before the LMT and after you met 20 Mr. Minton, it definitely -- you had no job anywhere else 21 except for the support that Mr. Minton was giving you? 22 A Well, that's not -- see, in -- in '98, we had 23 other income. So that's why I'm saying it would have to 24 have been -- I mean, I'd have to date it so I could be able 25 to answer you accurately.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1244 1 Q Did you also loan money to the LMT? 2 A I believe I did. 3 Q When did you do that? 4 A It may have been in 2000. It would have probably 5 been in 2001. 6 Q And this was money that you had put in your 7 checking account that Mr. Minton had given to you? 8 A What? I thought you asked me if I loaned money 9 to -- 10 Q Yes, is that where you got the money from that 11 you loaned to the LMT? 12 A Well, it was out of my salary that I was getting. 13 I guess you could say I was paying myself from the LMT. 14 Q And when you answered the question about the 15 anonymous donation to the LMT -- 16 MR. DANDAR: And we've covered this before, 17 so don't object. Just real quick. 18 MR. FUGATE: I'll look to the Court for 19 direction. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I've heard a lot of things, 21 but I've never -- 22 THE COURT: Me either. This is kind of an 23 unusual -- 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q When you answered in your deposition that the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1245 1 $500,000 came from someone in your "anonymously," that's 2 because that's what Mr. Minton told you, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you believed that he told you the truth, 5 correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And so your answers in your deposition were 8 truthful about that, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q All right. And you since have found out that 11 that money really came from Mr. Minton? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did he tell you why he lied to you? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q Were you furious with Mr. Minton because you 16 testified falsely in your deposition based upon his lie? 17 A No. 18 Q How many times did you have a conference with me 19 and Dr. Garko and Jesse Prince in reference to adding on 20 additional parties to the wrongful death case? 21 A Where that subject came up, do you mean? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Where all four of us were together, perhaps -- 24 perhaps two or three. I'm not really sure. There were 25 times when I was meeting with Mr. Garko -- Dr. Garko about
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1246 1 it, when I met with you and Dr. Garko about it, when I met 2 with Jesse and Dr. Garko, and when I met with you and 3 Jesse. But when all four of us were together, I'm not 4 sure. 5 Q Could it be just one time? 6 A Probably more times than that. But as I said, 7 we -- we were all in the office and sometimes the two -- 8 two people would be upstairs, sometimes three, sometimes 9 whatever. 10 Q Isn't it true that you were the only one, when 11 all four of us met, that was enthusiastic about adding on 12 David Miscavige as a defendant? 13 A I would definitely say I was the one that was 14 most enthusiastic. 15 Q All right. And isn't it true that Dr. Garko and 16 I were the most reluctant? 17 A It's true that Dr. Garko was, but you brought up 18 the idea. It didn't strike me as reluctance. 19 Q Was this after the October '99 hearing? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Was what after? 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q This meeting the four of us had. 23 A Are you talking about the one when Mr. Minton was 24 there? 25 Q Well, I'm talking about the one where you allege
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1247 1 that Mr. Minton was there, yes. 2 THE COURT: This is the one in the 3 affidavit? 4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Paragraph -- 5 THE COURT: In the affidavit -- this is the 6 one, Ms. Brooks, I believe he's referring to in your 7 affidavit of -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. So we're back to the 9 affidavit. 10 THE COURT: -- April 29th. 11 MR. DANDAR: Yes, paragraph 15. 12 A Okay. Okay. So what was your question? 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q My question is, Isn't it true that the only time 15 that you participated in a discussion to add on David 16 Miscavige was after the October '99 hearing with Judge 17 Moody? 18 A Well, when I participated in discussions about 19 how he could be added after Moody's suggestion to you about 20 how you could do it, it was after that, yes. 21 Q Isn't it true that's the reason the evidence that 22 we had to add on David Miscavige for the October '99 23 hearing was the affidavit of Jesse Prince, the one you're 24 going to look over tonight, and as well as documents from 25 the Church of Scientology?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1248 1 A Isn't it true that -- 2 Q The evidence that we had -- 3 A For the Judge Moody hearing? 4 Q Yes, the first one. 5 A When was that? 6 Q October '99. 7 A Well, his affidavit was August '99 -- 8 Q Right. 9 A -- so that would make sense. 10 Q Okay. And isn't it true that you offered no 11 testimony -- and what I'm saying is just for this case, for 12 the addition of those parties, that motion -- except your 13 prior declarations from other cases? 14 THE COURT: I don't even know what your 15 question is. 16 MR. DANDAR: I know. It's a terrible 17 question. I withdraw that. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q All right. Isn't it true Robert Minton never 20 flew to Tampa, Florida, to have a secret meeting to discuss 21 the addition of David Miscavige as a defendant in the case? 22 A Yes. He didn't fly there for that reason. 23 Q All right. He flew here because he wanted to go 24 down and picket, correct? 25 A Well, I don't remember. I think -- when was this
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1249 1 again? This was in the fall of '99. 2 Q Right. 3 A Yes, I believe -- I believe he probably had 4 several purposes for coming, one of which was to begin the 5 process of finding a place and getting things established 6 for the Lisa McPherson Trust. 7 Q And I let you and Mr. Minton and anyone else that 8 was working for the people forming the Lisa McPherson Trust 9 to use a phone in my office to try to find office space, 10 correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. And Mr. Minton was not part of any secret 13 meeting to discuss the addition of David Miscavige 14 individually, as captain of the Sea Org, as a party 15 defendant in the Lisa McPherson Trust case. Isn't that 16 true? 17 A Mr. Dandar, I remember that he was. That's why 18 I've written it in my affidavit. 19 Q Did you talk to Dr. Garko recently about that? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you meet -- have you had meetings with 22 Dr. Garko since you started negotiating with the Church of 23 Scientology in April of 2002? 24 A Well, that's mischaracterizing what's happened. 25 Q Well, forget about my word "negotiating." As you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1250 1 had discussions with the Church of Scientology, did you 2 meet with Dr. Garko in April of 2002? 3 A On -- yes. 4 Q Okay. And did you discuss with Dr. Garko his 5 recollection of whether or not Robert Minton ever 6 participated in any meeting with my -- with trial 7 consultants and myself to add on David Miscavige 8 individually to the wrongful death case? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And did -- isn't it true that Dr. Garko told you 11 Robert Minton was not part of that meeting? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Isn't it true that you had the same discussion 14 with Jesse Prince, and Jesse Prince told you that Robert 15 Minton was never part of the meeting to add on David 16 Miscavige? 17 A Mr. Dandar, if Jesse told you that, it's not the 18 case. 19 Q So what's the answer -- 20 A In fact, he -- 21 Q -- to my question? 22 A Isn't it true that he said he never was? No, 23 that's not true. In fact, he said he remembered that he 24 was. Now I'm sure that he remembers that he wasn't. 25 Q Now, look at -- look at the bottom of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1251 1 paragraph 15 of your April 2002 affidavit. Five lines up, 2 it says: "Mr. Dandar and I discussed it, and I had already 3 suggested a scenario of how this could be done by falsely 4 claiming Mr. Miscavige had a different role as head of the 5 Sea Org." Now -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, why don't you finish 7 the sentence? 8 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to keep reading it 9 because everybody can read it. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Isn't it true -- wait. Are you saying under oath 12 that you told me it was false that Mr. Miscavige has a 13 different position as captain of the Sea Org or head of the 14 Sea Org? Is that a false statement? 15 A His position as head of RTC is -- it says right 16 here: "Mr. Miscavige -- I suggested a scenario of how this 17 could be done by falsely claiming that Mr. Miscavige had a 18 different role as head of the Sea Org apart from his 19 corporate position in RTC." All I mean to say there is 20 that you were trying to figure out a way to get 21 Mr. Miscavige named as a party by skirting his position as 22 head of the RTC. 23 Q Did you -- 24 A And I was telling you that you could leave his 25 position as RTC out of it and just talk about his
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1252 1 position -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to him 3 making faces and shaking his head yes at the witness. 4 I want the record to reflect he's doing that. 5 THE COURT: All right. I was looking at the 6 question here. I was looking at the affidavit. 7 MR. DANDAR: I'm just trying to -- I'm 8 sorry, I'm just trying to get her to -- 9 THE COURT: Well -- 10 MR. DANDAR: I won't do that anymore. 11 THE COURT: Don't do that. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Okay. So you suggested adding him on as captain 14 of the Sea Org, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Right. Did you tell me that you were lying to me 17 about that? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you say it in such a way to make me believe 20 that what you were saying was true? 21 A I said it to you in such a way as to tell you 22 that it would be a good legal strategy. 23 Q And didn't Jesse Prince agree that Mr. Miscavige 24 as the captain of the Sea Org would have been in the 25 position to know about Lisa McPherson?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1253 1 A Yes. 2 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. 3 Objection. Know what about Lisa McPherson? 4 THE COURT: I understand the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Can I answer? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 A I believe he stated that in his affidavit. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Okay. Now, as you -- so -- 10 THE COURT: I think you've made your point. 11 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 12 THE COURT: Save it for argument. 13 MR. DANDAR: We'll move on. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Let's go to the section you entitle "Secret 16 Agreement." This is the agreement you allege exists 17 between the Estate of Lisa McPherson and whom? 18 A Are you really going to say it doesn't? 19 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 20 THE COURT: Granted. 21 I'm going to tell you it doesn't. I'm going 22 to tell you that there's no court in this world, 23 including this Court or any other court, that is going 24 to suggest that whatever was going on here was an 25 agreement. So there.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1254 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Who was this alleged secret agreement with? 3 A Well, it says right here, "Mr. Minton had an 4 agreement with Mr. Dandar and Dell Liebreich." 5 Q Now, isn't it true -- you've talked to Dell 6 Liebreich, correct? 7 A Several times. 8 Q You've talked to Ann Carlson, her sister? 9 A Yes. 10 Q You've talked to Lee Skelton, the other sister? 11 A Yes. 12 Q You've read their depositions? 13 A I don't believe so. 14 Q Okay. Isn't it true that the only agreement is 15 among the three sisters and their brother, Sam Davis? 16 A No. 17 Q Is there anything in writing about this so-called 18 secret agreement anywhere? 19 THE COURT: No, there isn't. 20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 21 THE COURT: If there were, I would have seen 22 it. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q All right. Now, isn't it true -- 25 THE COURT: Maybe there is, but if there is,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1255 1 I haven't seen it. 2 MR. DANDAR: No, there isn't. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Isn't it true that it was Mr. Minton who 5 graciously asked Dell Liebreich to serve as a board of 6 director member of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 7 A That's possible. 8 Q Isn't it true that it was Mr. Minton who asked 9 her niece, Kim Krenek, to serve as a member of the board of 10 directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 11 A Probably. He was the one who asked everybody to 12 join. 13 Q Okay. Isn't it true that I never insisted that 14 Dell Liebreich serve as a board of director member of the 15 Lisa McPherson Trust? 16 A No. 17 Q Isn't it true that I asked -- 18 MR. FUGATE: No what? 19 THE COURT: No, that isn't true or -- yes, 20 this may be one -- 21 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 22 THE COURT: -- I'm not sure what she's 23 saying. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm supposed to say yes or no. 25 THE COURT: Right. So I guess no, that is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1256 1 not true. 2 THE WITNESS: It's not true. I can't 3 remember what he said. What I meant to say was he 4 insisted. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: That's what I meant to say. 7 THE COURT: So no was the correct answer. 8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 THE COURT: That was a truthful answer. I'm 11 not suggesting that was the correct answer based on 12 what you've said you wanted to convey. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Were you present when Mr. Minton and I were 15 conferring about the incorporation of the Lisa McPherson 16 Trust? 17 A I was present for some conferring. 18 Q Were you present when the name of the corporation 19 was being discussed? 20 A I was present for some discussions about that. 21 Q Were you present when I requested Mr. Minton not 22 to use the name Lisa McPherson? 23 A No. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, I would object to that 25 question as being testimonial, and it's just like the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1257 1 Garko thing. 2 THE COURT: Like I indicated to you, 3 Counselor, I'm not going to -- he's going to have his 4 chance to testify, and then we'll see what his 5 testimony is. But it's like any lawyer asking a 6 question; that's not evidence. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Now, David Cecere, you allege in paragraph 18, 9 did expert work for the wrongful death case after he left 10 the Lisa McPherson Trust. What expert work did he do? 11 A He did quite a bit of work on the PC folders, as 12 I understood it. 13 Q Are you saying in paragraph 18 that it -- that he 14 did expert work on the PC folders only because Mr. Minton 15 insisted on it? 16 A I don't believe I said that. 17 Q Well, you say that Mr. Minton saw to it -- quote: 18 "saw to it that Mr. Dandar hired Mr. Cecere to do expert 19 work." What does that mean? 20 A Well, at the time, you needed to have more work 21 done than was possible, than you had resources to do. And 22 Mr. Minton knew that Mr. Cecere had the knowledge to be 23 able to do the work and suggested that Mr. Cecere could do 24 it. 25 Q Was this done in front of your presence, that you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1258 1 actually heard this happening? 2 A Well, in fact he said it to me. 3 Q All right. So you didn't hear any conversation 4 that Mr. Minton and I had about David Cecere? 5 A I don't think I said that you had one. 6 Q Okay. Now, paragraph 18, you talk about Teresa 7 Summers. Teresa Summers before she resigned from the LMT 8 was a very close friend of yours, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Was Teresa Summers -- 11 A I thought -- sorry. I thought she was. 12 Q Was Teresa Summers hired by you at the LMT 13 because she was a witness for the Estate of Lisa McPherson? 14 A No. I don't believe I said that. 15 Q Well, look at the way you word paragraph 18 about 16 Teresa Summers. "Teresa Summers was another former 17 Scientologist that I hired at the LMT after Mr. Dandar put 18 her on his witness list in the wrongful death case." What 19 are you trying to convey in that sentence? 20 A Well, I think I started the paragraph saying 21 basically that Mr. Minton wanted the LMT to be a place 22 which would gather people that were working on the case or 23 that had had some involvement in the case or whatever. And 24 what I meant to say there was that Mr. Minton was glad that 25 Ms. Summers was working there because of her involvement in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1259 1 the case, as well as because of her -- of the work that she 2 could do. 3 Q Did she -- did she actually work at the LMT? 4 A Yes. 5 Q How many months after her deposition was taken by 6 me did she get a job at the LMT? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Could we date her deposition? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would need to know 9 that. 10 THE COURT: Do you know when it was? 11 MR. DANDAR: I believe it was June 2000. 12 THE WITNESS: Was her deposition by you? 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q First deposition that I took. 15 A And when did -- do you know when she came to work 16 at the LMT? 17 Q No. I was hoping you would tell me that. Didn't 18 she start at the LMT seven months later? 19 A If you know. 20 Q I mean, do you know? 21 A I'd have to -- I'm not remembering exactly when 22 she came to work. But it was afterwards, yes. 23 Q If she quit in August of 2001, that means she 24 worked, what, eight to ten months at the LMT? Does that 25 sound right?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1260 1 A I thought she worked there almost a year, but you 2 may be right. 3 Q Okay. It's not your testimony that you hired 4 Teresa Summers because she was a witness in the wrongful 5 death case, is it? 6 A No. 7 Q It's because of her expertise in Scientology, 8 correct? 9 A For the most part, yes. 10 Q Okay. 11 THE COURT: I guess what he's trying to 12 suggest or ask is are the two necessarily related? 13 THE WITNESS: And as I said, or as I meant 14 to say, they weren't to a certain degree, but I 15 primarily hired her because of the work that she could 16 do at the LMT. It was a plus, as it happened, that 17 she was also someone that was related to the wrongful 18 death case. And in fact, she and I had a number of 19 conversations about that. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Do you recall the first time she went to the LMT, 22 she went there seeking help as a former Scientologist? 23 A I believe that the first time she saw Jesse she 24 was. 25 Q And do you recall her going to the LMT and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1261 1 talking to you for the very first time as a member of the 2 public after she's been deposed and telling you that I 3 didn't want her to work at the LMT? 4 A No, I don't remember that. 5 Q Now, Mr. Ward you also name in paragraph 18. He 6 has absolutely nothing to do with the wrongful death case. 7 Correct? 8 A I don't believe I implied that he did. Let me 9 see what I wrote about it. Where's Grady? Yes, I don't -- 10 I didn't say that he did. 11 Q All right. So my question is, If this is part of 12 the recantation affidavit, why are you putting Grady Ward 13 in there? 14 A I believe -- well, I tried to make it clear in 15 this paragraph that I was giving some examples of the 16 people that Mr. Minton brought together under the umbrella 17 of the LMT who were all involved in one way or another in 18 litigation with or against Scientology. 19 Q Well, Scientology was suing Grady Ward, correct? 20 A I'm not sure if they were, but the time I -- I 21 don't -- I don't know if that lawsuit was over by then or 22 not. But -- but -- well, actually, I think it was over and 23 he had already settled. But I may be wrong about that. 24 Q Okay. And the rest of the people -- Gerry 25 Armstrong I deposed as a fact witness. Keith Henson --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1262 1 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 2 Q -- was deposed. 3 MR. FUGATE: Armstrong is a fact witness or 4 an expert witness? 5 MR. DANDAR: He's a fact witness. 6 THE COURT: Are you going to ask her 7 questions or are you just going to recite some things? 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Okay. Gerry Armstrong, Arnie Lerma, Keith 10 Henson. Except for Gerry Armstrong being deposed as a fact 11 witness, Keith Henson and Arnie Lerma had nothing to do 12 with the wrongful death case, correct? 13 THE COURT: What did Mr. Armstrong know 14 about this case? 15 MR. DANDAR: He just knew about Scientology. 16 He's a former Scientologist. 17 THE COURT: I think a fact witness is 18 somebody that knows something about the wrongful death 19 case. 20 MR. DANDAR: No, no. He was a person who 21 was -- I think he was actually the biographer of 22 Mr. Hubbard, but he had prior -- he's a former 23 Scientologist. 24 THE COURT: Well, the only way he could 25 testify would be as an expert. Right? I mean, a fact
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1263 1 witness is somebody -- like these workers, the people 2 at the hospital. All of those people would be fact 3 witnesses. 4 MR. DANDAR: All right. 5 THE COURT: The rest of them would be expert 6 witnesses. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. Well, I guess I 8 should have paid them then. But he was on the witness 9 list. He was deposed. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q But excluding him, Arnie Lerma and Keith Henson 12 were never on the witness list or part of the wrongful 13 death case, correct? 14 A Right. I don't believe I was implying that they 15 were in the wrongful death case in my affidavit. 16 Q So you're putting a lot of information in your 17 affidavit that has nothing to do with recanting prior 18 testimony, correct? 19 A I'm putting into my affidavit whatever 20 information I feel will create a full picture for the Court 21 of this situation that I was involved in. 22 Q So the answer to my question is Arnie Lerma and 23 Keith Henson have nothing to do with the wrongful death 24 case. Isn't that true? 25 A It's what I said, yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1264 1 Q When and where did -- 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q I have one question here. I made a little note 5 here. Your last paragraph, last sentence, I'm sorry, in 6 paragraph 18 -- 7 A Yes, your Honor. 8 Q -- says Mr. Minton -- I'm as guilty as those, but 9 it's just one sentence. "Mr. Minton put Mr. Leiphold and 10 Mr. Dandar on the advisory board as the two main 11 anti-Scientology litigators that he was funding." Does 12 that mean he's funding the litigators? 13 A Yes, your Honor. 14 Q So he was funding -- 15 A "Litigator" meaning the judge -- "litigator" 16 meaning the attorney. 17 Q Right. So -- so you're suggesting there at the 18 very least that Mr. Minton was giving his money to 19 Mr. Dandar, aren't you? 20 A Well, I think it's more than a suggestion. 21 Q Okay. 22 MR. DANDAR: Now turn to -- 23 BY THE COURT: 24 Q You do realize there's an issue here as to 25 whether or not this money was being paid to the estate or
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1265 1 whether it was being paid to the lawyer. 2 A Well, I don't think there's any question that the 3 checks were being written to Mr. Dandar. 4 Q But I'm just saying this was your choice of 5 words. The litigators that he was funding, "that he was 6 funding" refers to litigators, meaning the lawyers. 7 A Well, in the same sense that I put 8 Mr. Leiphold -- 9 Q Yes. Mr. Leiphold has testified in this hearing 10 that Mr. Minton loaned him money. And there was a UCC 11 filing, I think. That's somewhere in here. And I presume 12 Mr. Minton is going to collect. There was a check paid out 13 of there. And he loaned him money. 14 So I assume you're saying the same thing about 15 Mr. Dandar here. I don't know. I don't want to put words 16 in your mouth, but as I read that, that's how I read it. 17 "Main anti-Scientology litigators that he was funding," 18 funding litigators. The litigators are Dandar and 19 Leiphold. 20 A Well, it's my understanding as I sit here today 21 that Mr. Minton was writing checks to Mr. Dandar for the 22 purposes of funding the wrongful death case. Perhaps I 23 should have made that more clear in my sentence, but that's 24 what I meant to say. 25 Q Okay. And all I asked you was simply "that he
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1266 1 was funding" modifies -- you're the person that's the 2 writer. You know how to write. You write well. So when 3 you say "the main anti-Scientology litigators that he was 4 funding," you're talking about the litigators, meaning 5 Leiphold and Dandar, and I think you already said yes. 6 A I understand -- I understand what you're saying, 7 your Honor, and all I'm saying is that I did not mean to 8 say that I thought that the money that Mr. Dandar was 9 giving to -- that Mr. Minton was giving Mr. Dandar was 10 other than money for the prosecution of the wrongful death 11 case -- 12 Q And I'm not suggesting that it was. I'm just 13 simply asking you that you could have said as -- 14 A Okay. 15 Q -- two main anti-Scientology litigators for the 16 litigation in which he was -- you know how to write. 17 That's what you said. There is some confusion here, 18 obviously. 19 A Yes. 20 Q There seems to be some confusion as to whether 21 the money was being paid to Mr. Dandar for the use -- 22 A For his own use. 23 Q For his own use -- 24 A Or for the case. 25 Q -- or whether it was being paid to Mr. Dandar for
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1267 1 the expenses of the case or whether it was being paid to 2 the estate. 3 A Yes. 4 Q And somehow it was being -- it was the estate's 5 money, but it was going through Mr. Dandar. 6 A Right. 7 Q I'm just suggesting that there's some confusion, 8 obviously -- that's part of why we're here -- and you 9 happen to say that -- "the litigators he was funding." I 10 just wanted to make sure that you understood that that's 11 how I read that. 12 A I understand that that's how you're reading it, 13 and I should have made that more clear. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Look at paragraph 21 -- 20. I mean 21, excuse 17 me. 18 A Okay. 19 Q We already talked about 20. Twenty-one. That's 20 totally false, isn't it? 21 THE COURT: We're talking about 22 paragraph 21? 23 MR. FUGATE: The three sentences, your 24 Honor. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Which sentence are you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1268 1 talking about? 2 MR. DANDAR: I'm talking about the entire 3 paragraph, all three sentences. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Each one is totally false. Isn't that true? 6 A No. 7 Q They're all false? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you have me on tape or anything documenting 10 that I thought it was great to have the LMT generate 11 negative publicity about Scientology? 12 A Do I have it on tape? No. 13 Q Do you have it in writing anywhere? 14 A You would never put that in writing. 15 Q Do you have it where witnesses are standing 16 around listening to me say something like that? 17 A Well, you didn't make any secret about it, so 18 there may be other people that heard you. 19 Q When did this take place? When did I say 20 something like that? 21 A Well, which part? The -- 22 Q Let's talk about the -- "it's great to create 23 negative publicity about Scientology and its involvement in 24 the wrongful death case," the first sentence of 25 paragraph 21.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1269 1 THE COURT: Well, that all goes with the 2 existence of Mr. Dandar -- let's just have the whole 3 sentence: "Mr. Dandar said he thought the existence 4 of the LMT would be great because it would create 5 negative publicity about Scientology and its 6 involvement in the wrongful death case." That's the 7 sentence. 8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q When did that take place? 12 A Well, when we were having discussions as it was 13 being set up and after it was set up. 14 Q Okay. Who was present when we had these 15 discussions that you're talking about? 16 A Probably Mr. Minton heard you say things like 17 that. 18 Q Were you, Mr. Minton, and I together in my office 19 when this supposedly took place? 20 A I think one time when a conversation like this 21 took place was in the conference room. 22 Q Anyone else present? 23 A I don't remember. The people that could have 24 been would have been Dr. Garko -- 25 Q Jesse Prince?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1270 1 A Perhaps Mr. Prince. 2 Q Donna West? 3 A She could have been. 4 Q Any other times? 5 A After we opened? One of the first times that you 6 came over to see us, you were talking about, as I recall -- 7 hoping that the LMT would get press. I don't know if you 8 remember that, but we were talking about specifically the 9 St. Pete Times. And I believe one of the conversations 10 happened after Mr. Minton and I had that meeting with the 11 man who used to be the city manager who did the roundabout. 12 I can't remember his name. 13 Q Roberto? 14 A Yes, Roberto. Remember when Mr. Minton and I had 15 a meeting with him? And Mr. Roberto said to us that he had 16 been able to keep Scientology off the front page of the 17 newspaper for two years, and he wasn't going to let us put 18 them back on the front page. 19 Q Was I present at this meeting -- 20 A No. 21 Q -- with Mr. Roberto? So how would I know what 22 happened there? 23 A Well, I'm just saying that we were telling you 24 about that and you were laughing. And you -- you were 25 saying, "Well, I sure hope you do."
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1271 1 Q Who was present when I was laughing and saying 2 that besides you? 3 A It may have just been me. 4 Q The second sentence -- well, before we get to the 5 second sentence, any other times that you're referring to 6 in this first sentence of paragraph 21? 7 A Well, those are the specific instances that I 8 remember. 9 Q Okay. Do you recall you and I were really 10 negative towards Mr. Minton picketing? 11 A Yes. You and I both came to think that it was a 12 bad idea. 13 Q Do you recall a time when Mr. Minton had that 14 10-foot pole and he went picketing with a 10-foot pole with 15 a horn at the end? 16 A You mean the threep. 17 Q The what? 18 A The threep. 19 Q The threep. 20 THE COURT: What is a threep? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it was this really 22 bogus thing that somebody made that was -- well, you 23 know Judge Penich's injunction? 24 THE COURT: Oh, it's the pole that Judge 25 Penich has?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1272 1 THE WITNESS: The pole with the thing. 2 THE COURT: Okay. I've seen that. I asked 3 him what that was. 4 THE WITNESS: That was a threep. 5 THE COURT: Okay. I'm not sure that's what 6 he told me. Maybe he did and I thought he was out of 7 his mind. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Remember how you and I tried to discourage 10 Mr. Minton from going into the street with that? 11 A Unsuccessfully, unfortunately. 12 Q Unsuccessfully. Mr. Minton really does whatever 13 Mr. Minton wants to do. Isn't that true? 14 A A lot of times. 15 THE COURT: This picket, I don't -- I didn't 16 necessarily mean to imply that Mr. Dandar picketed, 17 although frankly I thought he did picket. I don't see 18 the difference in the vigil. To me if you're carrying 19 signs, you're picketing. Did Mr. Dandar ever carry a 20 sign -- 21 THE WITNESS: I believe he did. 22 THE COURT: -- during these vigils? 23 THE WITNESS: I believe so. 24 THE COURT: So if I saw something where 25 somebody was carrying a sign, I might well think it
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1273 1 was a picket. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. But just to 3 clarify for you, there were a number of times when I 4 accompanied other people picketing, but I didn't hold 5 a sign because I was -- I took my dog with me and 6 whatever, so I couldn't do both things at the same 7 time. But -- 8 THE COURT: Well, I'm kind of old-fashioned. 9 I go to the airport and there's teamsters or somebody 10 is there and they're upset with the airline or there's 11 workers and they're trying to get a new contract and 12 there's a union. And they picket, and when they 13 picket, they carry signs and they walk and it's 14 peaceful. And they walk and they have a sign. And 15 they do it in front of the White House and they do it 16 at airports and they do it in front of wherever 17 they're trying to work. That's what I think of as a 18 picket. When I see folks and they've got signs, it's 19 a picket to me. 20 Now, if it's a vigil, that's okay. But when 21 I see it, I see it as a picket. And whenever I see 22 people with signs, I think they're picketing. So 23 perhaps I improperly suggested you were picketing. 24 The truth of the matter is I don't think 25 lawyers in a case like this ought to be holdings signs
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1274 1 because to me as a judge it looked like a picket, and 2 I'll bet to others it looked like a picket. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Did I ever hold a sign? 5 A I think you did. 6 Q Where? 7 A I think you did at the vigil. 8 Q And isn't it true that vigil started -- 9 THE COURT: I thought you all introduced a 10 picture of Mr. Dandar with a picket sign. 11 MR. FUGATE: We introduced a picture in 12 front of the criminal court -- 13 THE COURT: Not at this hearing. I'm 14 talking about some other hearing, maybe Mr. Minton and 15 Mr. Prince. 16 MR. MOXON: I had a part of a video where 17 Mr. Dandar -- all the picketers were across the street 18 from the Fort Harrison and they were all organizing 19 and they had their signs. And Mr. Dandar looked like 20 he was organizing them and instructing them. I have 21 that on video. 22 THE COURT: It was sometime when you were 23 showing me some footage or some stills or something 24 maybe of Mr. Prince. 25 MR. MOXON: Yes. It was during the Prince
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1275 1 hearings, that's correct. 2 THE COURT: I looked at one of those 3 pictures and was hearing what was being said by 4 Mr. Prince, and there was Mr. Dandar. 5 MR. MOXON: That's -- that's right. I'll -- 6 THE COURT: And that's what I'm referring 7 to. I didn't ever see you picketing or anything of 8 the sort. 9 MR. DANDAR: I didn't picket. 10 THE COURT: All right. Whatever it was, I 11 didn't like it. I wish you hadn't been there. 12 MR. DANDAR: I may have been observing. 13 THE WITNESS: I think I said, your Honor, he 14 participated in pickets. And what I was saying 15 earlier was I participated in pickets several times 16 when I wasn't actually carrying a sign, but I was with 17 the picketers. 18 THE COURT: Is that what you're referring to 19 when you say Mr. Dandar participated in pickets? He 20 didn't have a sign, but he was still picketing? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, for the most part, 22 although I do think that I remember him carrying a 23 sign on one or two occasions. But in any case, he was 24 participating. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1276 1 THE WITNESS: I don't define it as -- I'm 2 not -- when I said participated in pickets, I don't 3 mean -- I'm not defining it as you have to be carrying 4 a sign in order to be participating. 5 THE COURT: And I'm sure that's true, 6 because probably in those things that I identify as a 7 picket, they probably don't all have signs. But 8 frankly, what I see are the signs. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, and everybody is 10 together, and -- 11 THE COURT: Everybody is together and I see 12 the signs. So . . . 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Identify one picket where I was walking with the 15 picketers and was either holding or not holding a sign. 16 A As I just said, I thought it was during one of 17 the times surrounding December 5th, the December 5th 18 picket, but -- 19 Q The evening vigil? 20 A No, not the vigil itself because people weren't 21 holding signs during the actual vigil. That was -- people 22 would hold candles. 23 Q Right. 24 THE COURT: That's what I think of as a 25 vigil, candles.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1277 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q We had candles. 3 A We had candles. Everybody was carrying a candle. 4 Q Right. 5 A People aren't carrying pickets. 6 Q All right. 7 A But I believe -- and I may be mistaken -- but I 8 believe I remember you carrying a picket sign during one of 9 the pickets surrounding the vigil. I may be wrong, but -- 10 because I wasn't sure about that, I said "participated in 11 pickets." 12 Q Last sentence, "Mr. Dandar encouraged our 13 participation in The Prophet." Now, when did I do that? 14 A Well, for example, when you acted in the movie. 15 Q When did I encourage others to participate in the 16 movie? 17 A You told Mr. Minton that you thought it was 18 great. 19 Q Was Mr. Minton already assigned a part in the 20 movie? 21 THE COURT: Isn't this something here -- 22 here's another -- Counselor, just for your future 23 information, it's not a good idea when you're involved 24 in these kinds of lawsuits to be playing bit parts in 25 movies either. Honestly it isn't.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1278 1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it has nothing to do 2 with this case. 3 THE COURT: Well, okay. But -- 4 MR. FUGATE: We'll -- 5 THE COURT: -- it sure has come into this 6 courtroom. It has become an issue. And, you know, it 7 may have something to do with it being 8 anti-Scientology, and if it does and you are 9 representing the estate in this case, you should not 10 have been in that movie. Now, look, don't be filing a 11 motion tomorrow to have me recused from the case. It 12 isn't that big of a deal. 13 MR. DANDAR: All right. 14 THE COURT: It's just that it's not in my 15 mind a good idea, and I hope in the future you will 16 see that this kind of thing gets lawyers in trouble. 17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 18 THE COURT: Ill-advised. 19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 20 THE COURT: How's that? 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Now, Mr. Prince worked full-time for me June '98 24 to May of -- or, wait a minute. June -- hold on. 25 A March or April of 2000.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1279 1 Q June of '99 to May of 2000. 2 A Okay. 3 Q And while he was working full-time for me during 4 those dates, he did not work full-time at the LMT, was not 5 even an employee at the LMT. Correct? 6 A Okay. I'm sorry, my mind wandered. 7 THE COURT: Who are we talking about? 8 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Prince. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Mr. Prince did not become an employee of the LMT 12 until June of 2000, correct? 13 A Well, whenever he stopped being paid by you, he 14 started being paid by the LMT. 15 Q And he was a full-time employee of the LMT when 16 he started to be paid by the LMT, correct? 17 A No. 18 Q Pardon me? 19 A No. 20 Q Well, what was he doing? 21 A He was working for you a lot too. 22 Q What was he doing for me when he started to be 23 paid by the LMT and not me? 24 A Well, you would call him and you would need him 25 to help you on a motion or you would need him to gather
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1280 1 documents. And I'd be thinking he was doing one thing, and 2 I'd go in and it turned out that you'd called and he was 3 doing work for you. 4 Q All right. So you didn't appreciate him getting 5 documents for me while he was a full-time employee at the 6 LMT. 7 A No, I'm not saying I didn't appreciate it. I 8 just -- I think I actually asked you a couple times to 9 coordinate with me and that it would be fine if he did the 10 work if you would just let me know. But you were going 11 directly to Mr. Prince. 12 THE COURT: We're going to stop in about 15 13 minutes. 14 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm trying -- 15 THE COURT: The witness is tired. I know 16 I'm tired and that you're probably tired. 17 MR. DANDAR: I just would love to finish 18 with this affidavit. I don't know if I can, but I'll 19 try. 20 THE WITNESS: I wish we could. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Okay. So there came a time -- in this affidavit, 23 you're accusing me of telling and you Bob Minton to lie, 24 correct, in your depositions? 25 A Yes. I don't remember exactly where, but --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1281 1 Q Okay. 2 A But I do believe that that's the case. 3 Q What deposition of yours did I encourage you to 4 lie? 5 A I don't know if you remember this, but over the 6 issue of the agreement -- which I understand how your Honor 7 feels about it. 8 THE COURT: All I'm saying is -- this is 9 obviously a matter -- a person should never make this 10 comment. I think that this is hysterical in a way, 11 this agreement. An agreement in law -- which is what 12 I deal with every day, law -- has got to have terms. 13 It's got to have -- you can't have things like "a vast 14 amount." What are some of the other things? We -- 15 "bulk." 16 You know, I'm used to dealing with 17 agreements. First of all, normally they're in 18 writing. For a bundle of money like $2 million, 19 they're written on a piece of paper. They have 20 defined terms, they say when, they say what. 21 If they get -- "if they get enough money." 22 What is that? I mean, to me, 2 million bucks is 23 enough. That would be nothing. I figured this out 24 the other night. There would have to be a recovery of 25 almost $4 million before he could get paid, the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1282 1 $2 million could be paid, and there would be anything 2 left. Well, to most of us ordinary folk, that's a 3 hell of a lot of money. But that wouldn't count. 4 So, I mean, when I see this as -- when 5 you're talking about an agreement, I'm looking to 6 something that's got terms, that I can look at and I 7 can define. Nobody can enforce this. I mean, if 8 Mr. Minton came into court, for example, in front of 9 me and said "Enforce my agreement," I would say: 10 "Okay. Let me see it." 11 "Well, I don't have it." 12 "Well, tell me what it was." 13 "Well, it was if they got enough money, I 14 was going to get the bulk of it." 15 "What's the bulk?" 16 "Well, I don't know." 17 Was it eighty- -- I mean, in his deposition, 18 "Is it 85 percent?" 19 "I don't know. It's more than 50, I would 20 think." 21 Well, I can't enforce that. So that's why I 22 say legally it's a tough sell for me to think there 23 was an agreement. That's what I'm saying. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, and I understand what 25 you're saying.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1283 1 THE COURT: I mean, you all can talk about 2 it. Maybe you all have different ideas and thoughts. 3 But for a court of law, to suggest that whatever this 4 is is an agreement, this is a tough sell, that's all. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, I'm not really 6 trying to sell you on the idea that it was a legal 7 agreement. 8 THE COURT: They are. They're going to have 9 the same tough sell. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, we're not trying to 11 convince you, your Honor, that it was an enforceable 12 agreement. What we're trying to convince you is there 13 was an understanding which was covered -- 14 THE COURT: Maybe an "understanding" is a 15 better word for it. But when I think "agreement," 16 then I think it has some legal, binding effect. And 17 that's what I'm used to, an agreement. 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Our point is there was -- 20 THE COURT: Like a sentence has a subject 21 and a verb. I generally think of that. There are 22 lots of people that think they have spoken a sentence 23 that don't have a subject and a verb. If you were to 24 ask me what is a sentence, I would say it has a 25 subject and verb, has a period at the end, starts with
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1284 1 a capital letter, maybe more and more. 2 If you say there was an agreement, I'm going 3 to give you a legal definition of an agreement, which 4 is not what we have in this case. We can argue this 5 at the conclusion. I was just simply trying to -- 6 when this witness says to this lawyer, instead of 7 answering the question, "You're not going to try to 8 tell me there wasn't an agreement," I thought I would 9 suggest to her that I didn't think there was an 10 agreement, not legally. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, if I could just 12 respond to what you said, I think Mr. Minton will 13 testify about how he has come to understand that he 14 should have had lots of things in writing that he 15 didn't and why. 16 But in any case, it was my understanding -- 17 and I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a judge -- but it was 18 my understanding that there was an agreement, and I 19 believe Mr. Minton will testify that it was his 20 understanding. And Mr. Dandar did ask us to say that 21 there wasn't. So . . . 22 THE COURT: And that's the crux of this. 23 Right? 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Precisely, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1285 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Precisely. And, I might 2 add, this ties into the allegations in the complaint. 3 As your Honor said, the judgment would have had to be 4 pretty high. 5 THE COURT: It sure would have. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: And that's precisely why 7 some of these things were added into the complaint and 8 why we're faced with some of these things. 9 THE COURT: My suggestion to this witness 10 that there was not an agreement is simply my 11 suggestion that when I think "agreement," I think of a 12 contract that was enforceable. This was not it. That 13 does not mean that somebody -- to suggest that if 14 somebody tried, whatever it is, to lie about it is not 15 of grave concern to me if that's true. 16 But since you and Mr. Minton are -- if you 17 ever want an agreement that you want a court to 18 enforce, get it in writing. Have it have specific 19 terms. Go to a lawyer and write it out, "On this 20 date, such and such is payable in the event you 21 recover more than $10 million in this lawsuit," you 22 know, because otherwise a judge doesn't have a clue 23 what to do if you can't agree. I mean, these parties 24 would not have been able to agree. So he would have 25 brought that to a court of law, maybe.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1286 1 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor -- 2 THE COURT: And a court of law would have 3 laughed you out of court, I mean, and just said, "Are 4 you kidding?" 5 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I don't 6 believe Mr. Minton ever expected that there would be a 7 falling out between the parties. I believe -- well, 8 and I'm putting thoughts into Mr. Minton's head, which 9 he should be asked himself. But I believe that 10 Mr. Minton would tell you that he -- 11 THE COURT: Is the newspaper here? 12 MR. DANDAR: No. 13 THE COURT: All right. I guarantee you if 14 there had been a 200 -- a $200 million recovery and 15 Mr. Minton thought that the agreement was that the 16 bulk of the proceeds would have -- I mean, I don't 17 know what that would have been. But I know what I 18 would have thought of as the bulk, and I don't know if 19 these folks were prepared to hand over hundreds of 20 millions of dollars. So you've got to have a meeting 21 of the minds. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: So what I'm suggesting is 24 don't -- in the future, for your life, as you go 25 through your life as a human being and you want an
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1287 1 agreement with somebody, it's a good idea to put it in 2 writing. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: And then, you know, you don't 5 lose friendships over it, you don't go to court over 6 it, you do not even have to pay lawyers. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Well, that's not always true, 9 but it helps if you have things in writing. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I believe 11 Mr. Minton believed that there was more good faith 12 than he should have. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q What were the subject matters, Ms. Brooks, that I 15 told you to lie in a deposition about? 16 A You said to -- you said not to say that there was 17 any kind of an agreement. 18 Q What else? 19 A Well, I believe that's what I've put in my 20 affidavit. 21 Q Okay. So when was the first time you lied in a 22 deposition that there was no agreement? What -- sorry. 23 A I would have to look at my depositions. 24 Q Well, didn't you do that during your many 25 meetings with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling and with your
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1288 1 attorney? 2 A I have reviewed these things, but I'm not 3 remembering in my head. But I -- it did happen. 4 Q Now, in August of 2001 -- well, wait a minute. 5 Before I get to August of 2001, were there any other 6 subject matters that you're claiming that I told you to lie 7 about under oath in a deposition? 8 A I don't believe so. There was -- no. 9 Q When Mr. Merrett prepared your affidavit and 10 Mr. Minton's affidavit in 2000 stating that there was no 11 agreement, did you tell Mr. Merrett that that was a lie? 12 MR. McGOWAN: Objection. That's not -- 13 that's not what the evidence was. 14 THE COURT: Well, my recollection is she 15 doesn't know who prepared it. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Right. So the predicate of 17 when Mr. Merrett prepared this is inappropriate. 18 THE COURT: All right. Whoever prepared the 19 affidavit. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Well, the affidavit that you and Mr. Minton 22 signed, each individual affidavit which stated that there 23 was no agreement, did you tell your attorney at that time, 24 Mr. Merrett, that this was a lie? 25 A As I think I testified earlier, my recollection
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1289 1 is that we were discussing it with you. 2 Q Are you aware that Mr. Merrett hand-delivered 3 your affidavit and Bob Minton's affidavit to my office? 4 THE COURT: Are you talking about the -- the 5 unsigned affidavit or the signed affidavit? 6 MR. DANDAR: No, the signed affidavit. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q The signed and notarized affidavit, 9 hand-delivered it to Donald West at my office stating under 10 oath that there was no agreement ever between the estate 11 and Mr. Minton or the LMT. 12 A Well, as I think I said earlier, I believe I was 13 in New Hampshire at the time. So that would have had to 14 have been happened in Florida, and I'm -- 15 THE COURT: So the answer is no, you're not 16 aware of that. 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Merrett 20 that your affidavit about being no agreement was a lie? 21 THE COURT: That can be answered "yes" or 22 "no." 23 THE WITNESS: Can I say "probably"? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1290 1 Q Did you tell Mr. Merrett your affidavit was a 2 lie? 3 A Probably. 4 Q Did Mr. Merrett -- 5 A I don't recall a specific conversation with him. 6 Q Did Mr. -- do you know if Mr. Minton told 7 Mr. Merrett that that affidavit was a lie? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Now, 27, did I have any involvement whatsoever 10 with this plan -- 11 THE COURT: Are we talking about No. 27 -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 13 THE COURT: -- of the affidavit? 14 MR. DANDAR: Of the affidavit. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Did I have any involvement at all with this plan 17 described in paragraph 27 of putting hard drives in the 18 hallway of the LMT that Mr. Merrett was going to take care 19 of? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Are we talking about 21 videotapes? 22 MR. McGOWAN: Videotapes? 23 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, videotapes. 24 A That was the conversation that happened not in 25 your presence.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1291 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. 3 A That's why I didn't mention you in this. 4 Q Okay. So I don't have anything to do with 5 paragraph 27? 6 A The -- your only involvement in the unedited 7 video footage was that you stated your hope that 8 Scientology wouldn't get ahold of the unedited videotapes. 9 Q Why? What was on the unedited videotapes of 10 people talking about the case of Scientology that I told 11 you I cared about? 12 MR. FUGATE: Object, argumentative. I 13 object to him being argumentative to the witness. 14 THE COURT: Just ask her why would you care. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Why would I care? What did I say? 17 A I think I testified earlier about this. There 18 was some footage of you in candid moments talking about 19 Scientology, that you weren't -- you weren't happy that 20 Scientology would get. 21 Q Well, was there an order for the LMT to produce a 22 videotape of me talking about Scientology? 23 A Well, there was an order for us to produce all of 24 the unedited videotape. 25 Q Of who?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1292 1 A Of anybody talking about Scientology. 2 Q Are you sure about that? Is that your 3 understanding? 4 A That's my recollection. 5 Q Including counsel? 6 A That was my understanding. 7 Q And did I tell you to -- 8 THE COURT: She already said you didn't have 9 anything to do with it. 10 MR. DANDAR: Fine. 11 THE COURT: If I were you, I would just take 12 that and move. 13 MR. DANDAR: I'm moving. Here we go. 14 THE COURT: Maybe this is a good time to 15 stop? 16 MR. DANDAR: No, no. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 THE WITNESS: We're almost done, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 THE WITNESS: Are we almost done, 21 Mr. Dandar? 22 MR. DANDAR: I hope so. 23 THE COURT: We're on paragraph 28. 24 MR. DANDAR: I'm just going to ask you some 25 questions.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1293 1 THE WITNESS: So are we done with this? 2 MR. DANDAR: Just put that aside. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q In August of 2001, you tried to go see Dell 5 Liebreich, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you called Dell Liebreich to schedule to go 8 see her without me knowing about it, correct? 9 A I'm sorry, what did you say? 10 Q You called Dell Liebreich and told her you wanted 11 to see her and for her not to tell me about it, correct? 12 A Not exactly. 13 THE COURT: It isn't going to go fast. So 14 we're done for the day. Thank you all. We'll see you 15 all on -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Thursday. 17 THE COURT: -- Thursday at 9 o'clock. 18 MR. FUGATE: Judge? 19 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate. 20 MR. FUGATE: I have one brief thing. I have 21 the language that is highlighted that was omitted from 22 the face page -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: -- of the memorandum and fact 25 of law. And you asked me to bring that to your
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1294 1 attention and you were going to initial it. 2 THE COURT: What I was afraid of, I've got 3 to have the original to do that. 4 MR. FUGATE: All right. 5 THE COURT: Maybe you could do this -- I 6 don't know how in the world they would ever find it. 7 MR. FUGATE: I just brought it today, and I 8 remembered it. I'll talk to the clerk. 9 THE COURT: Talk to the clerk about how to 10 do that. On the other hand, like you say, you've 11 already filed. 12 MR. FUGATE: We filed. Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. LIROT: And also, Judge, this is a 14 courtesy -- 15 THE COURT: You can step down, ma'am. Thank 16 you. 17 MR. LIROT: -- courtesy copy of Exhibit 15, 18 composite -- 19 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I 20 have -- let me turn around. 21 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. 22 THE COURT: Are we on the record still? 23 MR. LIROT: (Nodded affirmatively.) 24 THE COURT: Okay. What is it? 25 MR. LIROT: This is just Exhibit 15, your
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1295 1 courtesy copy of the documents Mr. Fugate gave to me 2 yesterday. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. LIROT: We've already given the clerk 5 our copy, and we highlighted the exact same portions 6 that were in the copy that was given to us. 7 THE COURT: These are Plaintiff's 8 Exhibit 15? 9 MR. LIROT: Correct. 10 THE COURT: Okay. I don't know if I have 11 them copied. 12 MR. LIROT: No. I copied that to make sure 13 the clerk got it. 14 THE COURT: So this is mine? 15 MR. LIROT: That's your copy. 16 THE COURT: And this is Exhibit 15 put in 17 the record by the plaintiffs in this hearing? 18 MR. LIROT: That's correct. We put it in 19 yesterday and then made copies. 20 THE COURT: Oh. 21 MR. LIROT: These were the documents that 22 were presented to us and we were told that's what was 23 given to this Court. 24 THE COURT: Now I know what they are. 25 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1296 1 THE COURT: All right. Now, come here. 2 (Off-the-record bench conference held. The 3 proceedings concluded at 5:35 p.m.) 4 ____________________________________ 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1297 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 15th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25