IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 16, 2002. Morning Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Volume 10, Page 1299 APPEARANCES: MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, NY 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1300 APPEARANCES: (Continued) MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. Attorney for Robert Minton MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 Attorney for Stacy Brooks ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw Mr. Brian Asay Ms. Patricia Greenway
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1301 1 (The proceedings began at 9:05 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Good morning. 3 SEVERAL SPEAKERS: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: Did we all enjoy our day off? 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, we did. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Good. I just had Sue 7 pull up my calendar for the week after next. I don't 8 know. It seems as if we're rolling along rather 9 slowly, so I don't know if we'll finish or not. 10 I have no idea what your schedule looks 11 like. I'll let you take a look. But Monday is 12 Memorial Day. Tuesday, you are scheduled to be with 13 me for the pretrial all day. So we can continue this 14 if we're not done. No sense of a pretrial at this 15 stage. And I'm booked Wednesday, Thursday, and 16 Friday. But I could get a senior judge, probably. 17 So -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Is Friday the 31st? 19 THE COURT: You know, I don't know. 20 MR. WEINBERG: That's the day that I'm 21 leaving with my family to go to Massachusetts for my 22 son's graduation. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. WEINBERG: And I get back on -- late on 25 the 3rd.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1302 1 THE COURT: Which is a? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Which is a -- 3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Monday. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Well, take a look at your 5 calendars to see. You know, as I said, I'd kind of 6 like to get through this so we know what we're doing. 7 And I think that I can get authorization for senior 8 judge time. So Friday will be fine. So I have 9 pretrials, and I kind of like to do those myself. So 10 that will work good. Check then, if you all will, on 11 Wednesday and Thursday. 12 MR. FUGATE: 29 and 30, right, Judge? 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't have a 14 calendar. 15 MR. FUGATE: It is, that's correct. 16 THE COURT: Okay? So look. If we can do 17 it, I'm going to ask for senior judge coverage so I 18 can get into the mix while there's still some 19 available. 20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, what about this Monday? 21 THE COURT: What is it? 22 MR. DANDAR: Are you still going to 23 Tallahassee this Monday? 24 THE COURT: Yes. I'm afraid I couldn't get 25 out of it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1303 1 MR. DANDAR: And, Judge, Plaintiff objects 2 to cancelling all these discovery depositions of 3 experts while this hearing is going on. We have three 4 attorneys. One of them can be here. They have 5 dozens. They can certainly conduct discovery 6 depositions in preparation for trial. And we just 7 object to this continuation of all these discovery 8 depositions of experts that are being cancelled. 9 THE COURT: Tell me -- give me an idea, like 10 what experts? I've seen -- I read so many, I don't 11 know what's left to be done. 12 MR. DANDAR: Well, when this started, we had 13 two set in San Francisco, the defendants' nephrologist 14 and a -- 15 THE COURT: The defendants' nephrologist? 16 MR. DANDAR: -- and a kidney pathologist. 17 THE COURT: Both defendants' experts? 18 MR. DANDAR: Yes, yes. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DANDAR: And we cancelled the 21 plaintiff's vocational rehab expert for today. 22 Cancelled on Monday was Dr. Buchan in Tampa because of 23 the hearing three days ago. Cancelled on Tuesday was 24 another expert of the defense. 25 THE COURT: Could you all --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1304 1 MR. FUGATE: That was Dr. Knight, who was 2 actually set for Monday. That was the doctor that 3 broke his leg, which we announced in Court. 4 THE COURT: Right. 5 MR. FUGATE: And the one that's set for 6 Monday is Dr. Wild, who we were bringing here to 7 testify because he's leaving the country. And I think 8 when we understood you were going on Monday, that was 9 cancelled and he's going, I think, to Argentina. 10 So other than that, we can -- we can do 11 whatever, I mean, whatever the Court directs us to do. 12 But the two that I'm aware of, Dr. Knight obviously 13 couldn't come over, couldn't fly. He could be here I 14 think the second week of June. We can reschedule him. 15 And then Dr. Wild, we would have to get a time when he 16 comes back, because we were actually bringing him 17 here, as opposed to California, because we cancelled 18 California. 19 MR. LIROT: I thought it was in New York. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, here's the problem. 21 Those depositions, the expert depositions, the medical 22 expert depositions, as Ken knows, I have done all of 23 them. And I'm here, and this -- and we don't have -- 24 THE COURT: Are you planning on 25 participating in this hearing?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1305 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes -- 2 THE COURT: Obviously, you're 3 participating -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: -- I am. 5 THE COURT: -- by your presence, but are you 6 going to be questioning? 7 MR. WEINBERG: I thought I would be 8 participating earlier, but we seem to be going at a 9 slower pace. Yes, I am. 10 THE COURT: Okay. You know, I think we -- I 11 think that's fair. He's counsel that's going to be 12 doing these expert witnesses at trial. I think he has 13 a right to attend the deposition. He says he's here 14 and he's going to participate here. So I think they 15 need to be cancelled. I mean, I'm not happy about it, 16 needless to say, but, you know, he's -- 17 I presume you're kind of chief trial 18 counsel, are you not? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I am. 20 THE COURT: And he's done all the experts as 21 far as I know in all the matters before me. And I 22 would think he would have a right to be there and make 23 sure that -- especially since expert depositions could 24 be introduced at trial in the event the expert is not 25 available. I would think he might want to ask
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1306 1 questions and he knows -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: I've got to prepare them. I 3 mean, we've done these for years. Mr. Dandar has had 4 time to prepare his experts. I have a right to 5 prepare our experts. 6 THE COURT: I agree. 7 So, Counselor, I think that if it's an 8 expert and it's somebody that he plans to put on the 9 stand in the trial, if there is a trial, then he 10 should be permitted to attend the depositions. So I 11 will allow those to be cancelled. 12 If you have some other type witnesses who 13 are, you know, fairly short witnesses that maybe you 14 aren't even going to put on at trial, they're local, 15 they're going to be here, then I say those should go 16 on. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 18 MR. DANDAR: There's a second matter that I 19 would like to bring up maybe during a break, but I 20 would like to start Ms. Brooks -- 21 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, you would like Ms. 22 Brooks? 23 MR. DANDAR: I would like to start finishing 24 up on cross-examination. 25 THE COURT: Okay. You have some matter you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1307 1 want to bring up at a later time? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 3 THE COURT: All right. That's fine. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sure we've got time for 5 that. 6 THE COURT: What's that? 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sure we have time for 8 that. 9 THE COURT: Yes, indeed. 10 I can't see Mr. Moxon. 11 MR. MOXON: And I can't see you either, your 12 Honor. 13 THE COURT: That's all right. I don't need 14 to see you. 15 MR. MOXON: Well, I'd like to see you, 16 Judge. 17 THE COURT: Oh, that's nice. 18 MR. MOXON: I don't know how this works. 19 THE COURT: Maybe when he brings in my other 20 chair, it will be better, because I'm sitting way down 21 here in the hole. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Did you find out who took it? 23 THE COURT: Pardon me? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Did you find out who took it? 25 THE COURT: No, I did not. I suspect maybe
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1308 1 Judge Lenderman, who had to be moved to my courtroom, 2 because that's my courtroom, the big one. This is 3 his. And so he was going to do his trial over there, 4 so I suspect he had his chair and he moved it. And 5 although I -- all right. 6 Continue, Counselor. 7 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS (RESUMED) 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Ms. Brooks, what is your date of birth? 11 A April 8th, 1952. 12 Q And what is Mr. Minton's? 13 A October 3rd, 1946, I believe. 14 Q Now, you've had a chance to review the 15 declarations that we marked as Exhibits 17, I believe, 16 through 29 over the day off we had yesterday? 17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'd like to say 18 something about those. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: As long as he's -- 21 THE COURT: Well, you can at the appropriate 22 time, but, I mean, he asked you first of all -- you 23 need to answer that question -- did you have a chance 24 to review it? 25 A Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1309 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. And did you find that those declarations 3 were declarations by you made under oath with the penalty 4 of perjury? 5 A I found that I'm not comfortable authenticating 6 these as my declarations, and I would prefer to have signed 7 copies. There were too many errors in these. There were 8 whole sentences that seemed to have been left out, and I 9 would prefer to work with actual copies that I can 10 authenticate of these declarations, please. 11 Q And you haven't done that, correct? 12 A Excuse me? 13 Q You haven't done that over the day off? You 14 haven't looked at your own signed declarations that 15 these -- 16 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Wait a minute until he asks his 18 question. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You haven't reviewed your own signed declarations 21 of which these exhibits were copies of? 22 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor. She 23 just said they're not copies of them. She was given 24 postings off Internet sites to review. She reviewed 25 those, and she can't authenticate them.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1310 1 THE COURT: His question was has she 2 reviewed copies of her signed declarations. If she 3 has them, she can answer that question. If she 4 doesn't have them, then the answer is no, she doesn't 5 have them or she does have them and hasn't reviewed 6 them. So your objection is overruled. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, he injected into 8 that question a statement that the documents she 9 reviewed are indeed copies of declarations, and she 10 just said they weren't. 11 THE COURT: I did not take it that way. I 12 thought he was talking about copies of signed 13 declarations. These are not signed, so these could be 14 different documents. So your objection is still 15 overruled. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Then there's an improper 17 foundation because -- 18 THE COURT: Counselor, overruled. Sit down. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Do you have the original of these declarations? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you have signed copies of these declarations? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you have -- do you know where they are? 25 A I don't.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1311 1 Q They're not in Atlanta? 2 A No, Mr. Dandar. Some of these are nine years 3 old. I haven't seen these in many, many years. 4 Q Do you have any way to access the copies of the 5 original declarations that you have signed over the years? 6 A In order to do so, I would have to get the -- 7 contact the courts where these were filed and ask for 8 copies from the Court. 9 THE COURT: What we'll do, Counselor, is 10 this. If you want to get those, you get them. She'll 11 have to come back. 12 MR. DANDAR: I'll do that. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q But how did they get put up on the Lisa McPherson 15 International Web site that you control? 16 A First of all, I think I clarified that earlier. 17 I don't have anything to do with the -- putting the 18 information up. I'm not really sure what the process is. 19 I believe some of these were taken from other Web sites on 20 the Internet. I'm not sure how they were put up there. 21 Q Who controls the Lisa McPherson Trust 22 International Web site? 23 A Well, there are various people who have various 24 functions with regard to it. 25 Q Who are they?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1312 1 A Mark Bunker has put material up in the past, 2 Ingrid Wagner has put material up, Dee Phillips has put 3 material up. I wasn't even aware that many of these 4 declarations were up and still at this moment can't say 5 that they are, as I haven't seen them up on the Web site. 6 Q And those folks who put these up on the Web site, 7 at the time they put them up on the Web site, they were 8 employees of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 9 A If they put them up prior to the dissolution of 10 the corporation, they were. 11 Q All right. And after the dissolution of the Lisa 12 McPherson Trust, Incorporated, which occurred I believe you 13 said in December of 2001, what entity now is in control of 14 the Web site, Lisa McPherson Trust International? What 15 person or entity? 16 THE COURT: You mean there is still a Lisa 17 McPherson Trust International? 18 MR. DANDAR: (Nodded affirmatively.) 19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I thought -- 20 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. That's the 21 name of the Web site -- 22 THE COURT: Oh. 23 THE WITNESS: -- but there is no entity. 24 A I can tell you that I'm still paying a couple of 25 those people, but I am not reviewing what's being put up on
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1313 1 the Web site. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q In order to put something up on the Web site, the 4 person who is doing that has to have codes that are secret 5 to access the Web site, correct? 6 A I don't know, actually. 7 Q All right. Who are the people that still have, 8 as far as you know, that you're still paying, to maintain 9 the Web site? 10 A Mark Bunker. 11 Q Who else? Is that the only person? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. And you write him a check on your 14 personal account? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Now, after the dissolution of Lisa McPherson 17 Trust, Incorporated, the Florida corporation, in December 18 of 2001, Jesse Prince was still paid $5,000 a month, 19 correct? 20 A Yes, by me. 21 Q You personally? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Until April 4th of this year, correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q All right. And you haven't paid him since,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1314 1 correct? 2 A No. 3 Q And what was he doing that you -- 4 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I don't 5 know what the answer is. 6 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 7 THE COURT: When you say "correct" and she 8 says "no," I don't know if that means "no, that's not 9 correct" or "yes, that is correct." 10 MR. DANDAR: Bad question. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 12 THE COURT: That's all right. It's when a 13 lawyer says "correct" or "isn't that true," that is a 14 leading question. You've heard us talk about leading 15 questions. That means it's kind of suggesting the 16 answer. 17 So if the answer is wrong, then that's kind 18 of a "no." If the answer is right, the answer is 19 "yes" when they say "correct" or "isn't that true." 20 So I don't know what she's saying. You'd 21 better fix that. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Why were you paying Jesse Prince -- 24 THE COURT: No, I want that question and 25 that answer -- I want to be sure that's the correct
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1315 1 answer. 2 Madam Court Reporter, go back to that 3 question and answer because I don't know what the 4 answer is. 5 MR. DANDAR: And I don't remember the 6 question. 7 (The reporter read back as follows. 8 Question: All right. And you haven't paid 9 him since, correct? Answer: No.) 10 THE WITNESS: The answer should have been 11 yes, that's correct, I have not. 12 THE COURT: See what I mean? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Now, why were you paying Mr. Prince in January 17 through April 4th of this year? 18 A Because Mr. Prince had no other possible source 19 of income. I felt sorry for him. I felt he needed some 20 help. 21 Q Okay. 22 A I convinced Mr. Minton that we should continue to 23 help Mr. Prince. 24 Q All right. The money you were paying Mr. Prince, 25 was that $5,000 a month?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1316 1 A That's correct. 2 Q And was that money coming from Mr. Minton? 3 A Yes. 4 Q All right. So Mr. Minton was giving you money to 5 put in your personal checking account so then you could 6 turn around and pay Mr. Prince out of your personal 7 checking account? 8 A Not only Mr. Prince, but any of the other 9 expenses that were still occurring as a result of what 10 needed to be done to wind down the Lisa McPherson Trust. 11 Q That included paying Mark Bunker? 12 A Yes. 13 Q That included paying for the Web site? 14 A Paying for the Web site? 15 Q Yes. You have to pay a monthly fee to the 16 Internet service provider? 17 A I haven't done that. 18 Q All right. Does Mark Bunker do that? 19 A Not as far as I know. 20 Q Who does? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q All right. Why is it that Mr. Minton can't pay 23 these people to wind down the Lisa McPherson Trust out of 24 his own checking account? 25 A He could, but he prefers that I deal with the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1317 1 day-to-day details of doing it. It's been my job to do 2 that for some time. 3 Q Does he give you a check every month to cover 4 these expenses, or does he just -- did he give you a lump 5 sum? 6 A He doesn't give me a check every month. 7 Q So how much did he give you to cover these 8 expenses? 9 A I believe about $100,000. 10 Q And when did that occur? 11 A Sometime in the fall. 12 Q Of 2001? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Was that written on his personal check, or was it 15 an anonymous check from a Swiss bank? 16 A I believe it was a personal check. 17 Q Did the Lisa McPherson Trust accept donations in 18 the fall of 2001 -- 19 A No. 20 Q -- from third parties? 21 A No. 22 Q Can you sit here today and recall any declaration 23 you ever filed in a court case that you actually lied under 24 oath? 25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1318 1 Q When you put postings on the Internet, are those 2 postings truthful, or are they -- can they contain lies 3 made by you? 4 A I don't intentionally lie. 5 Q Not even in a posting, correct, to the Internet? 6 A Correct. 7 Q I didn't hear you. 8 A Okay. I said "correct." 9 Q Okay. Now, your prior testimony that started all 10 this recantation is that you and Bob Minton decided that 11 both of you needed to file recantation affidavits following 12 the statements made by either Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen to, 13 quote, set the record straight, close quote. Is that 14 right? 15 A I would say that it -- the process began earlier 16 than that. 17 Q When? 18 A When Mr. Minton decided that he wasn't willing 19 any longer to cover for you anymore for the wrongful death. 20 Q All right. What do you mean by cover for me in 21 the death case? What do you mean by that? 22 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe we've 23 gone over this. This is asked and answered. 24 THE COURT: I think we have, haven't we? 25 MR. DANDAR: No. This is the first time I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1319 1 heard it started before they met Mr. Rosen and 2 Mr. Rinder. 3 THE COURT: That's true. 4 A I think that it's not the first time. I think I 5 testified earlier -- 6 THE COURT: It just happens I overruled the 7 counsel's objection, so we'll have to have it again. 8 True or not? 9 You have to understand, my memory is 10 stretched here because of the number of days. And, 11 you know, truthfully, while this may be y'all's 12 primary case and you may be dwelling on it every day, 13 I have got lots of cases. And consequently, my mind 14 goes from this case to many, many other cases. So 15 should I think that something has not been covered and 16 it has, it's not that I'm trying to drag this out, 17 trust me. If I can't remember it, I can't remember 18 it, so . . . 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q So when did you and Mr. Minton get together and 21 decide not to cover for Ken Dandar anymore? 22 A Well, as I testified earlier, Mr. Minton was 23 becoming increasingly concerned about the legal troubles 24 that you were getting him into. And by -- by the time you 25 came up to ask him, beg him, for more money in February, he
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1320 1 was extremely upset with you and the position that you had 2 put him in and told you so and told you that he didn't want 3 to have anything more to do with the wrongful death case. 4 And you begged him and pleaded with him, and he then gave 5 you more money for the case. 6 MR. DANDAR: I move to strike all this as 7 non-responsive. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q My question is simple. When did you and 10 Mr. Minton decide not to cover for Ken Dandar anymore in 11 the wrongful death case? 12 A I was answering that. 13 Q I think the question is -- 14 THE COURT: Well, that does require a date, 15 not all the long explanation. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q The date. Is it February of 2002? 18 THE COURT: Is that when Mr. Dandar came up 19 there? Is that the time -- 20 THE WITNESS: I would say -- 21 THE COURT: -- that you were explaining -- 22 THE WITNESS: I would say right after that. 23 THE COURT: I've forgotten. Was that in 24 February? 25 THE WITNESS: In the beginning of March.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1321 1 THE COURT: Okay. And that was around the 2 time frame when you all decided this -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q So up until the first week of March, 2002, you 7 and Mr. Minton had continued to agree to cover for Ken 8 Dandar in the wrongful death case? 9 A No. 10 Q All right. So my question is, When did you 11 first, both of you, decide not to cover for Ken Dandar in 12 the wrongful death case? 13 THE COURT: She just answered that. Oh. 14 But your question was up till then. 15 MR. DANDAR: I thought she said the first 16 week of March. But I said, "That's the first time?" 17 And she said, "No." 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q So my question is, When was the first time? 20 A Well, when I decided and when he decided are two 21 different dates. 22 Q All right. 23 A I had decided quite some time earlier than that, 24 Mr. Dandar. 25 Q When?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1322 1 A I would say the decision was really made in 2 August of 2001. 3 Q By you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q All right. What were you covering for Ken Dandar 6 on the wrongful death case that you decided not to cover 7 anymore in August of 2001? 8 A Well, I was attempting to keep this case on -- 9 keep this case going by -- I believe I told you this 10 earlier -- especially in that August 2001 deposition that 11 you attended in which your trial consultant Dr. Garko 12 advised me that Mr. -- 13 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay, hearsay. 14 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Counselor, you asked 15 the question. 16 MR. DANDAR: No, I asked the question of 17 what it was that she decided not to cover. 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- 19 THE COURT: I'm going to let her respond, 20 and if it includes hearsay, that's what it does. 21 MR. DANDAR: It's also work product. 22 THE COURT: I would suspect there's been a 23 lot of work product revealed here. I mean, you asked 24 the question. I'm going to let her finish answering. 25 A It was in the August 2001 deposition that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1323 1 Dr. Garko turned to me at a break and told me Mr. Minton 2 was about to go to jail on orders of Judge Baird and that 3 he'd better answer all the questions that he was being 4 ordered to answer, at which point I realized that Dr. Garko 5 didn't understand what was being done and that Mr. Minton 6 was testifying the way he was in depositions at your 7 request and that Dr. Garko didn't know that. And that made 8 me extremely upset. 9 THE COURT: Are we talking about the 10 deposition where the Fifth Amendment was taken? 11 THE WITNESS: No. This is my deposition, 12 your Honor -- 13 THE COURT: Oh. 14 THE WITNESS: -- on August 15th, 2001. It 15 was a very major turning point for me, because in that 16 same deposition, Dr. Garko told me that Mr. Minton was 17 about to go to jail and Judge Beach told me that I was 18 about to go to jail. 19 THE COURT: Well, I guess that I don't 20 understand, because I really don't know what went on 21 in front of Judge Baird. But was Mr. Minton about to 22 go to jail in front of Judge Baird because Mr. Minton 23 had claimed the Fifth or because Mr. Minton wasn't 24 answering the questions or what was -- 25 THE WITNESS: Because Mr. Minton was trying
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1324 1 to -- well, basically because Mr. Minton was trying to 2 avoid going in the deposition at all so that he could 3 avoid answering the questions, which he didn't want to 4 answer because -- 5 THE COURT: Well, your -- I'm sorry, I don't 6 mean to interrupt you, but I thought you had said 7 Dr. Garko had said if Mr. Minton doesn't start 8 answering the questions, and that's what my question 9 is. What questions? The only ones I recall that he 10 didn't answer were the ones where he took the Fifth. 11 THE WITNESS: Right. But -- 12 THE COURT: Was there a deposition he 13 missed? I mean -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Are you saying, Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Minton 18 violated Judge Baird's order to show up for deposition in 19 the summer of 2001 because I told him not to show up? 20 A No, I'm not saying that. 21 Q And isn't that the only reason that Judge Baird 22 issued an order to show cause is because Mr. Minton 23 willfully refused to come to deposition in Clearwater in 24 the summer of 2001, as he was ordered to appear on a 25 certain date?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1325 1 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor. She's 2 having to testify to legal cause as to why Judge Baird 3 issued an order. 4 THE COURT: Well, she can testify if she 5 knows or if she thinks she knows. I mean, I don't 6 know myself, so . . . 7 A I believe that is what was happening. The reason 8 Mr. -- one of the reasons Mr. Minton was so concerned about 9 going into any deposition at all, either in Judge 10 Schaeffer's court or Judge Baird's court, was because of 11 the things that you wanted him to cover up for you under 12 oath in depositions. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Okay. So the question: What are those things 15 that I wanted him to cover up? 16 A I believe those have been covered. 17 Q Are you talking about this one check in May of 18 2000? Is that one of them? 19 A You were asking him to give a false answer to the 20 amount of money that he had given to the case. 21 Q Is that the one check in May of 2000? 22 A Yes, $500,000. 23 Q Okay. What else did I ask him to cover up? 24 A About the meeting that you told him -- that had 25 never occurred, that you in deposition actually elicited
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1326 1 perjury from him about, and about the agreement. 2 Q The meeting that I and -- as you said on Tuesday, 3 Dr. Garko also denied Mr. Minton was ever at that meeting? 4 A I didn't say that. 5 Q Didn't you have a conversation with Dr. Garko in 6 April of 2002 when he told you at your beach hotel in 7 Clearwater that Mr. Minton was never at a meeting where 8 David Miscavige was discussed as being added on as a party? 9 A He said he didn't remember it, and later he said 10 he did. 11 Q When did he tell you he remembered? 12 A He told Mr. Minton later. 13 Q When? 14 A Several days later. 15 Q Where? 16 A On the telephone. 17 Q Pardon me? 18 A On the telephone. 19 Q And where were you and Mr. Minton staying at that 20 time? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q Were you staying on Clearwater Beach? 23 A I don't recall. 24 Q Was this call made by Dr. Garko to Mr. Minton? 25 A Perhaps.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1327 1 Q Were you in a hotel room when the call was 2 received? 3 A I don't recall. I believe it was on a cell 4 phone. 5 Q On Mr. Minton's cell phone or yours? 6 A Mr. Minton's, I believe. 7 Q Okay. Were you in Clearwater at the time? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you remember the date? 10 A I don't. 11 Q Okay. Was it in April of 2002? 12 THE COURT: Counsel, she said, "I don't know 13 what the date of the meeting was where Dr. Garko went 14 to the hotel." She said it was a few days after that. 15 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 16 THE COURT: So if we know when that was, a 17 few days after that. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q When was the meeting with Dr. Garko at your beach 20 hotel? 21 A Sunday -- whatever the Sunday was after the 22 Tuesday, April 9th, hearing. 23 Q Well, that Sunday was April 14th. 24 A Okay. 25 Q That's the same Sunday --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1328 1 A Jesse Prince came later. 2 Q Jesse Prince came later. 3 A With Mr. Minton, yes, that's right, the very same 4 day. 5 Q Now, who set up this meeting between you, Bob 6 Minton, and Dr. Garko? 7 A Dr. Garko wanted to come over and see us. He was 8 very upset with you. You told him you weren't going to pay 9 him. 10 THE COURT: You're past the question, which 11 was who set it up. So if we're going to move this 12 along -- if you have to explain it, then explain it. 13 But when it's something like who set it up, you just 14 need to -- 15 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: -- answer the -- 17 THE WITNESS: He's being extremely hostile 18 to me. 19 THE COURT: If he is hostile to you, I'll 20 tell you, this is very mild compared to what I 21 consider hostile cross-examination. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q So Dr. Garko called Bob Minton and said, "I want 24 to come over and talk to you." Is that your recollection? 25 A That's my recollection.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1329 1 Q Okay. Was this in the morning, the afternoon, or 2 the evening of Sunday, April 14th, 2002? 3 A Afternoon. 4 Q Before Jesse Prince arrived? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Up till the time that Jesse Prince arrived on 7 April 14th -- that was in the evening, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Up until that time, you and Bob Minton thought 10 that Jesse Prince was agreeing with what Bob Minton was 11 doing in reference to testifying against Ken Dandar. Is 12 that right? 13 A We were beginning to have some doubt. 14 Q What's -- when was the first time you had some 15 doubt about Jesse Prince's alliance or allegiance to Bob 16 Minton? 17 A You mean -- you're talking about in this last 18 little bit of time? 19 Q Yes, before April 14th, 2002. 20 A You mean in his whole life? Or do you mean just 21 this last little meltdown that happened? 22 Q The last little meltdown. 23 A Well, two things happened that caused me to have 24 some doubt. 25 Q Okay. Tell me what those are.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1330 1 A When was I at -- Jesse had expressed to me some 2 concern that he needed counsel in order to move forward 3 with this. And I had told him that he -- that I would be 4 willing to cover the costs for him if he wanted to speak to 5 my attorney, Tom McGowan, about this. 6 Q Okay. When was that? 7 A Probably Tuesday or Wednesday or maybe -- yes, 8 when I spoke to him after the Tuesday hearing day. It was 9 either Wednesday or Thursday. 10 Q So April 10th or 11th. 11 A If that's Wednesday or Thursday. 12 Q Yes. The 9th was Tuesday. 13 A April 10th or 11th. 14 Q Okay. And did he say, "Okay, let me talk --" 15 A He said, "Great, yes, I appreciate that." 16 Q Did he talk to Tom McGowan? 17 A He went and talked to him on Friday morning, as I 18 understood. 19 Q Okay. And did Tom McGowan agree to represent him 20 then? 21 A No. I asked Jesse how it went. Jesse said it 22 went great. Then I had occasion to talk to Tom McGowan, 23 and Tom McGowan -- 24 MR. McGOWAN: Judge, privileged. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1331 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. 3 A Well, from what Tom McGowan told me, I had reason 4 to think -- 5 THE COURT: If your lawyer said privilege -- 6 Now if she wants to waive it, she can. So, 7 I mean -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. So I can't say anything 9 about it at all? 10 MR. McGOWAN: It's your privilege to waive. 11 MR. DANDAR: You can waive it if you want 12 to. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't want to waive my 14 privilege. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Okay. So as a result of that conversation, 17 whatever it might be, you started to think, "Gee, Jesse 18 Prince isn't agreeing with our position"? 19 A Well, I started to think that Jesse was doing 20 something other than what he was telling me. 21 Q What -- what was he telling you? 22 A He was telling me that he was really excited 23 about getting out of this whole sordid business, that he 24 didn't want to have anything to do with it anymore, but he 25 was very glad that Bob and I were giving him an opportunity
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1332 1 to extricate himself from this and from his involvement in 2 this. 3 Q And how is it that what you and Bob were doing 4 was going to get Jesse out of his involvement in something? 5 A Now, I for sure testified about this whatever day 6 was the last day I testified. But I'll testify again. 7 Q No. Is it the same answer? 8 THE COURT: What was it? 9 MR. DANDAR: I'd have to go look it up. I 10 don't remember. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q As quickly as you can, what was the reason why he 14 wanted to get out and what was he wanting to get out of? 15 A Well, now, that's not what you just asked me. 16 You just asked me why we wanted to help him. Which do you 17 want me to answer? 18 Q Answer that one. 19 A Which one? 20 THE COURT: Ask a question. 21 MR. DANDAR: Let me start over again. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Jesse -- you said Jesse Prince was all excited 24 because you and Bob Minton were testifying against Ken 25 Dandar. Is that your testimony?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1333 1 A That's not what I said at all, Mr. Dandar. 2 Q All right. Jesse Prince was all excited about 3 what? 4 A Being able to extricate himself from the mess 5 he'd gotten himself into. 6 Q Okay. What was the mess that he had gotten 7 himself into? 8 A Do you want me to tell you my opinion? 9 Q No. I want you to tell me what Jesse told you. 10 A I just did. That's what Jesse said. 11 THE COURT: He said he wanted to get out of 12 the mess he'd gotten himself into? 13 THE WITNESS: He was very glad to be able to 14 get himself extricated out of this mess, the same as 15 we were going to extricate ourselves from it. 16 THE COURT: Is the mess -- maybe I'm 17 confused. Is the mess this case? Or is the mess this 18 whole scenario of testifying in cases and -- 19 THE WITNESS: The whole scenario of 20 testifying. 21 THE COURT: And giving affidavits -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: -- in cases and being paid for 24 being a consultant expert slash -- consultant slash 25 expert?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1334 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: The whole thing, not just this 3 case? 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 THE COURT: This was one of several? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Well, certainly Jesse Prince didn't say he was 10 excited to get out of the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 11 case, did he? 12 A Yes, he did. 13 Q He was already out of the Lisa McPherson wrongful 14 death case, wasn't he? 15 THE COURT: She may not know that, whether 16 he was or wasn't. Frankly, I'm not sure. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q You ordered -- you ordered him to withdraw as an 19 expert, you say, in August of 2001. 20 A That's correct. However, after that you had him 21 sign an affidavit and filed the whole severe sanctions 22 motion, which dragged him right back into the thing. And 23 he was very upset about that, and he was very, very much 24 looking forward to getting out of it. That's what he told 25 us.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1335 1 Q Okay. 2 A I understand that it's not what he's been telling 3 you, Mr. Dandar, but that is what he told us. He tends to 4 tell people what they want to hear. 5 Q So Jesse Prince, since you've known him since 6 1976, is a habitual liar? Is that what you're saying? 7 A I am saying that I have discovered since he was 8 arrested for drugs in 2000 -- in August 2000 that he tends 9 to lie a lot. He has lied to me, he's lied to Mr. Minton, 10 he's lied to you. 11 Q Are you sure he was arrested for drugs in August 12 of 2000? 13 A Whenever he was arrested for drugs. 14 Q Okay. What was the other reason -- you mentioned 15 two. What was the other reason that Jesse Prince -- that 16 you thought Jesse Prince was not going to follow down the 17 road with you and Bob Minton? 18 A The other reason that I thought that Jesse Prince 19 was lying to me about what he's doing is that he lied to me 20 about what he was doing on Saturday, August -- April 13th. 21 Q Because when you called his house, he wasn't 22 there and the kids told you later that he was there, or 23 something like that? 24 A No. 25 THE COURT: She did -- whatever it was. I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1336 1 remember she testified. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q That had nothing to do with the case, though, 4 right? I mean, he -- his kid said he wasn't home, and you 5 found out he was home. Is that -- am I right? 6 THE COURT: Whatever she said, she said. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: It hasn't changed, whatever it 9 was. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Now -- 15 THE COURT: My memory was good if it was 16 just a few days ago. It's not too good if it was more 17 than a few days ago. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Now, at the time you contacted Mr. Rinder -- I 20 think you said in February of this year. Is that right? 21 A I don't believe I said that. 22 Q All right. When did you first contact Mr. Rinder 23 to start talking to him about you and Bob Minton wanting to 24 negotiate a settlement? 25 A Well, Mr. Howie contacted Mr. Pope in January, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1337 1 believe, but I believe Mr. Minton first looked to 2 Mr. Rinder sometime in March. 3 Q Was that over the phone? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. And the meeting with Rinder and Rosen and 6 Yingling in New York City on March 28th, that wasn't the 7 first meeting, was it, with Rosen and Rinder in person? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Wasn't there a meeting a week before that? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you recall calling Dr. Garko on his cell phone 12 while he and I were before Judge Schaeffer on another case 13 before March 28th? 14 A No, but perhaps you could refresh my memory. 15 Q If you don't remember, that's fine. Now, at the 16 time that you and Mr. Minton and Mr. Jonas's attorney met 17 with Mr. Rosen, Mr. Rinder, and Ms. Yingling in New York 18 City, the only one that was facing contempt charges before 19 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird was Robert Minton, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q No one has filed any motion for contempt or order 22 to show cause against you in any case. Isn't that correct? 23 A That's -- I think there was one filed in the 24 Penick case, if I'm not mistaken, but not in this case. 25 Q If there was one, that had to do with violating
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1338 1 an injunction, right? 2 A Right. 3 Q Now, in the motion to add on David Miscavige and 4 RTC and CSI that was filed by the estate in August -- or, 5 September of 99, you signed an affidavit which incorporated 6 prior affidavits that you had filed in other cases. Do you 7 remember that? 8 A I believe Judge Schaeffer showed me an affidavit 9 the other day. 10 Q And those affidavits under oath by you spoke of 11 the power of David Miscavige as the captain of the Sea Org. 12 Do you recall that? 13 A I'd like to see it. 14 MR. McGOWAN: They speak for themselves, and 15 this has been asked and answered. 16 THE COURT: Yes. If she's -- 17 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to lay a foundation. 18 THE COURT: If she says those are true, they 19 speak for themselves. Whatever she said, she said, if 20 they're true. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q All right. Did you review the brand-new 1999 23 affidavit of your husband at the time, Robert Vaughn Young, 24 that was filed with the motion to add on parties in the 25 wrongful death case?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1339 1 A If I did, I don't recall. 2 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Judge, I wanted them to 3 make a copy before I asked about this, but they said 4 the copier is too noisy. Can we have this copied 5 before I ask her questions about it? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: Can we take a little break? 8 THE COURT: Right now? 9 THE WITNESS: Just a few minutes. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Well, the witness needs a 11 break, so we're going to take a break. It's a quarter 12 to 10:00. It's early to take our break, but if we're 13 going to take one, let's take it. We'll be in recess 14 until 10:00. This will be our morning break a little 15 early. 16 (Break taken at 9:45 a.m. until 10 p.m.) 17 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, may we approach 18 for a moment? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. McGOWAN: Thank you. 21 (Off-the record discussion held.) 22 THE COURT: Do you want this on the record? 23 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 24 THE COURT: Madam Court Reporter. 25 (Off-the record discussion held.)
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1340 1 THE COURT: Sit down. 2 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I want some 3 guidance from the Court on objecting to 4 asked-and-answered questions because I know sometimes 5 they're overruled and sometimes they're sustained. 6 And I understand, you know, that there's been many 7 days of testimony. And I don't want to make 8 unnecessary objections, but if I make them, it's 9 because I believe it's been -- 10 THE COURT: You may feel free to make any 11 one you want. As I said, if I overrule it, it's 12 because I don't remember it. 13 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. I just didn't 14 want to -- 15 THE COURT: It doesn't mean that I'm, you 16 know, suggesting -- you might remember it, but if I 17 don't remember it, I'll overrule it. 18 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. 19 THE COURT: If I do remember it, believe me, 20 I'll sustain it. 21 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. Thank you, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: So feel free to make them. 23 And trust me, we're not going to go back 24 through all these meetings, because she did testify 25 about those.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1341 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. What's marked as Exhibit 33 by the clerk 3 is now in front of you, and it's your ex-husband's 4 declaration, Robert Vaughn Young, from December 26, 1999. 5 Is that correct? 6 A It seems to be, yes. 7 Q Okay. And in this declaration on -- 8 (A cell phone sounded.) 9 THE COURT: Well, it's nice to know that 10 both sides can be guilty of inappropriateness in the 11 courtroom. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Turn to paragraph 37. 14 THE COURT: What page, Counselor? 15 MR. DANDAR: Page 20, paragraph 37, of the 16 declaration. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q And Vaughn is talking about reviewing Jesse 19 Prince's affidavit that was filed also to add on additional 20 parties at this time and states, quote: "Declaration is 21 either true by my personal knowledge or fully consistent 22 with what I know about this organization and its policies 23 and its history." 24 Do you have any factual basis to tell us today 25 that what your -- Vaughn Young said then was false?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1342 1 A I can't really speak for Vaughn Young. 2 Q Okay. 3 A I didn't even -- I don't recall ever seeing this 4 affidavit prior to now. 5 Q Okay. Paragraph 38, Vaughn Young states under 6 oath that Lisa McPherson was, quote, "Held against her will 7 with the knowledge and consent and direct orders of 8 Scientology executives that would come directly from the 9 Religious Technology Center," close quote. Do you have any 10 facts today that would indicate that that statement by 11 Vaughn Young is false? 12 A As I said, I can't speak for Vaughn Young. 13 Q Okay. On page 21, at the top of the page is the 14 continuation of the paragraph 38, where Vaughn Young states 15 that, quote: "The Scientology maxim is the greatest good 16 for the greatest number. When it comes to protecting the 17 organization itself, that determines the morality of the 18 act. It is the end justifies the means. That is why she 19 was isolated. That is why there are records missing. The 20 organization and its command must be protected at all 21 costs. That is why Lisa McPherson died." 22 Do you have any facts today that would indicate 23 that those statements made by Vaughn Young under oath on 24 October 6th, 1999, are false? 25 A I know he couldn't know that they were true.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1343 1 THE COURT: That wasn't the question. 2 You'll answer that question. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Do you have any facts as you sit here today to 5 indicate that the statements made that I just read are 6 false? 7 A Again, as I said, I can't speak for Vaughn Young. 8 Q Okay. He also in this affidavit talks about the 9 corporate lines of Scientology being a sham, all 10 controlled -- all corporations of Scientology being 11 controlled by one person, Mr. Miscavige, since 1982. Do 12 you have any facts today that would indicate that that 13 statement by Vaughn Young under oath was false? 14 A I can't speak for Vaughn Young. 15 THE COURT: Maybe saying that some other 16 different way, is this -- I mean, in your own 17 experience, having been in the Church, do you agree 18 that that's true? 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think I've 20 testified a number of times previously that Vaughn 21 Young and I worked together as partners, as paid 22 witnesses -- 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The 24 hierarchy is such that David Miscavige would control 25 all of Scientology, whatever that question was. In
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1344 1 other words, would you believe that to be true? 2 THE WITNESS: I believe that Miscavige has 3 an enormous amount of control in Scientology -- as you 4 said the other day, like the Pope. 5 THE COURT: By the way, I have to be on a 6 conference call with a couple of justices at 12:30, so 7 my lunch break is going to probably be here 8 accordingly. And I don't know how long it's going to 9 go on. So I'll probably break around 12:30 for lunch. 10 MR. DANDAR: Judge, in that same package on 11 the notice of filing additional affidavits that were 12 delivered to you yesterday at your request, there is 13 an affidavit in there of Stacy Brooks. And I'm pretty 14 sure it was marked as an exhibit. 15 THE COURT: Did I request this whole thing? 16 I mean, I'm happy to have it, but -- 17 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you did. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Whenever I requested it, 19 I requested it in open court, right? 20 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. I didn't want anybody to 22 think I was calling him on the telephone to make the 23 request. 24 MR. DANDAR: If I can see it, I could 25 maybe --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1345 1 MR. FUGATE: Judge, what he did, I think -- 2 Mr. Lirot introduced these affidavits, and they were 3 connected to or attached to the motion. And he said, 4 "I would like to have the motion made a part of that 5 exhibit," which I take it has been done. 6 THE COURT: I don't know if it has or not, 7 but did he deliver me a copy of the motion and the 8 attachment, what all went with the motion. And I 9 assume that I asked for it. 10 MR. FUGATE: You did, Judge. I just want to 11 make sure that we're -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Let me find it. It's the one 13 that starts off looking like this. And it's dated -- 14 it's dated -- it's dated March 13th, 1997, at Seattle, 15 Washington, by Stacy Young. 16 THE WITNESS: He showed me that yesterday, 17 your Honor, I believe. 18 THE COURT: Nothing -- well, I don't know 19 about anybody showing anything yesterday -- 20 THE WITNESS: I mean day before, day before 21 yesterday. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Okay. And since you previously testified that 24 all of your declarations filed at any time anywhere are 25 accurate, this one from the Wollersheim case --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1346 1 A I didn't say they were accurate. I said they 2 were true. 3 Q Okay. This one from the Wollersheim case of 4 paragraph 9 -- 5 A What is this? 6 Q That's the filing that we made. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just possibly for 8 the record note exactly what -- 9 MR. DANDAR: It's the March 13th, 1997, 10 Wollersheim affidavit declaration filed by Stacy 11 Brooks in the Wollersheim case, which is part of the 12 plaintiff's notice of filing additional affidavits and 13 other documents in support of plaintiff's motion to 14 add parties -- 15 THE COURT: In this case. 16 MR. DANDAR: -- in this case. 17 THE COURT: And as part of that, her 18 affidavit in the other case is attached. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. It was 20 attached to her affidavit in this case -- 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. WEINBERG: -- this and one other 23 affidavit. Right? 24 MR. DANDAR: It's Exhibit 4 to that filing, 25 which is dated October 7th, 1999, and Exhibit --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1347 1 THE COURT: I've got notes on that. You 2 know, I read these things and make notes. I don't 3 want either of you looking at my notes. So if I've 4 got notes on it, give it back to me. 5 MR. DANDAR: Oops. There's no notes on this 6 one -- 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. DANDAR: -- not on this page, anyway. 9 THE COURT: I didn't get to it entirely. So 10 maybe if that's at the end, I didn't get to it. 11 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'm sorry, paragraph 28 12 on page 9. 13 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. Mr. Dandar? 14 MR. DANDAR: Paragraph 28 on page 9. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Do you mind if I walk over 16 there? 17 THE COURT: No, I sure don't. You all may 18 feel free to move about the courtroom. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Can you read that, please, of your declaration. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Read it to herself or out 22 loud? 23 MR. DANDAR: Out loud. 24 A Which paragraph? 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1348 1 Q 28. 2 A "I can state from personal knowledge from my 3 observation in Scientology that all Scientology 4 corporations are a sham and that David Miscavige and his 5 key aides can and do control every aspect of every 6 Scientology corporation and can at any time directly take 7 over and seize all practical control of any and all 8 Scientology corporations." 9 Q Okay. Thank you. 10 MR. FUGATE: Is there a question there? 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q That statement in your declaration is truthful, 13 correct? 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that. 15 She's already testified it wasn't of her own personal 16 knowledge on Tuesday. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 A It was truthful, but it was embellished. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q That was based upon your personal knowledge as it 21 states in paragraph 28, correct? 22 A Yes, but I think I -- you could say I exaggerated 23 my personal knowledge. 24 Q So does that make it a lie? 25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1349 1 Q Thank you. Let me show you what we'll have 2 marked as our next exhibit entitled "Integrity of Source." 3 34. 4 Exhibit 34 entitled the Integrity of Source, is 5 that a document, as far as you know, published by the 6 Church of Scientology International? 7 A Well, either -- well, I don't know if it was 8 published by the Church of Scientology International, but I 9 have seen it before. 10 Q The document actually states at the bottom, it's 11 published by the Watchdog Committee for the Church of 12 Scientology International, correct? 13 A Well, it says CSI colon WDC colon GAL. 14 Q No, above that. 15 A But it usually has a heading on the document, and 16 that's not here for some reason. 17 Q When you were in Scientology working -- 18 A It's not dated. I don't believe this is an 19 accurate copy of this. There's no date. 20 Q Okay. So there should be a date on there? 21 A In my experience. 22 Q Do you have any -- any facts as you sit here 23 today that the second paragraph, which states, quote, "No 24 one except RLH may cancel --" 25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to object.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1350 1 THE COURT: It's RH. 2 MR. DANDAR: What did I say? 3 THE COURT: RLH. 4 MR. DANDAR: Oh, my goodness. Sorry. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I have an objection. My 6 objection is, if she can't authenticate this, I don't 7 think Mr. Dandar should be reading from this document. 8 It's not in evidence. He showed it to her. She said 9 she can't authenticate it, doesn't have the dates on 10 it, doesn't have the normal headings on it. 11 THE COURT: Since he can't introduce it, I 12 think he can read from it and ask her whether that 13 statement is accurate or not. In other words, he can 14 ask her anything and ask her if it's accurate or not. 15 He can't assume from that that it comes from some 16 edict from the Watchdog Committee because by this 17 time -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: He can ask -- so what 19 you're -- he can formulate a question from text, but 20 not suggest somehow that the text is -- 21 THE COURT: From the Church, unless it can 22 be authenticated it's from the Church. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q You've seen a document before entitled the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1351 1 Integrity of Source, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you see that while you were a Scientologist? 4 A I believe so. 5 Q And the document that you saw while you were a 6 Scientologist entitled the Integrity of Source concerned 7 and made it clear that anything that Mr. Hubbard wrote 8 could not be cancelled or changed in any manner except by 9 him. Is that correct? 10 A Yes. But the reason that I'm noting that there's 11 no date on this document is because I believe this was 12 written while Mr. Hubbard was still alive. 13 Q Okay. 14 A I mean, I think it was. And I believe that, from 15 my recollection, this issue was -- or, this directive was 16 published -- 17 THE COURT: The truth of the matter is this 18 thing isn't in evidence. So we don't care about this, 19 if it's not in evidence. He just asked you a 20 question, and you've answered it, I believe. 21 A Okay. When he was alive, that was a true 22 statement. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Okay. So has it been changed by somebody? 25 A I don't know. I haven't been there since 1989.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1352 1 Q And this concept or this firm Church policy that 2 nothing can be changed that was written by Mr. Hubbard or 3 cancelled except for typographical errors at the bottom, 4 that policy has enabled you to testify about the policy of 5 the Church of Scientology in the '90s because that policy 6 has never changed since you left the Church. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 8 She said she hasn't been in the Church since 1989 -- 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MR. WEINBERG: -- so how would she know? 11 THE COURT: I think that's true. I mean, I 12 don't know. Maybe it has changed. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Do you know if the policy in the Church of 15 Scientology has changed since you left in '89? 16 MR. McGOWAN: That was asked and answered. 17 THE COURT: No, it wasn't. Overruled. 18 A No, I don't. 19 THE COURT: I've read an awful lot of stuff 20 in this case that seems to suggest that the doctrine, 21 whatever Mr. Hubbard has written, is, in effect, the 22 scriptures -- I'm sure I'm saying this incorrectly, 23 but it is the doctrine of the Church. Do you have any 24 reason to believe that they have decided to do away 25 with some of his teachings or writings?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1353 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think that 2 you're absolutely right that the bulk of the 3 Scientology doctrine is from L. Ron Hubbard, and he is 4 considered the founder of Scientology. So I would 5 imagine that it still is true that his writings formed 6 the heart and soul of the organization. But -- 7 THE COURT: And during your tenure there, 8 whatever his writings were, were not to be changed by 9 anyone else in the Church. Is that true? 10 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 11 THE COURT: And I guess -- 12 THE WITNESS: As long as he was alive. 13 THE COURT: Okay. And you were in the 14 Church after he died? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: For how long? 17 THE WITNESS: Three years. 18 THE COURT: Okay. And during those three 19 years, were the writings of L. Ron Hubbard changed or 20 cancelled or anything like that as far as you knew? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that there were 22 some administrative procedures that may have been 23 revised just because -- for practical reasons or 24 whatever. 25 THE COURT: Because they were new
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1354 1 administrators? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Okay. But whatever it is he 4 wrote about Scientology, was any of that changed? 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 THE COURT: And I guess the last question, 7 if you can answer it, is do you have any knowledge 8 since you've been out -- I mean, this can be from 9 hearsay or otherwise -- that the writings or teachings 10 of L. Ron Hubbard have been changed or have been 11 deleted or are allowed to be changed by Mr. Miscavige 12 or anybody else? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, from some hearsay, I 14 guess I would have to say I understand that some of 15 his things have been revised. 16 THE COURT: His -- his basic -- or, his 17 administrative matters or substantive writings? 18 THE WITNESS: I think more administrative. 19 THE COURT: Okay. And I think that's all 20 she can testify to. 21 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's fine. 22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have this one that 23 says "policy." I don't know what the point is that 24 we're getting to. 25 THE COURT: This is not in evidence --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1355 1 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 2 THE COURT: -- so it doesn't matter. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Now, here's a foundation statement, and then I'm 5 going to get to my question. Previously you testified that 6 the first time Mr. Rinder ever approached you to recant 7 sworn declarations that you or husband made was in 1994. 8 Is that correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q He offered you $200,000 to do that. Is that 11 correct? 12 A No. 13 Q He offered you more than that, didn't he. 14 A Well, the way you're characterizing the meeting 15 is not exactly accurate. 16 Q How much money did he offer you in the 17 discussions, the eight days of discussions you and your 18 husband had with Mr. Rinder? 19 A I believe it was close to $200,000. 20 Q Are you sure it wasn't 450,000? 21 A I don't believe he ever offered that. 22 Q Now, isn't it true that you wanted to accept that 23 offer and recant your sworn testimony that you had given to 24 Attorney Graham Berry, but your husband, Vaughn Young, did 25 not?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1356 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever tell your husband, Vaughn Young, 3 that you wanted to accept their offer and take the money? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And he said no. Correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. 8 A I wanted to settle with them at that point, and 9 he didn't. 10 Q Now, Mr. Rinder -- 11 THE COURT: The only question I have, was 12 there any reason to recant your testimony, your 13 affidavit at that time? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: So the request was to recant a 16 truthful affidavit? 17 THE WITNESS: Actually, that -- there was no 18 request in that way. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: That's why I was having 21 trouble answering his question. 22 THE COURT: Well, what were you to recant? 23 I mean, when I think of recanting, you recant 24 something untrue and make it true. 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, we weren't asked
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1357 1 to recant. The word "recant" never came up. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q What was the word he used to get you to somehow 5 change, alter, or withdraw your affidavits that you had 6 given to Graham Berry? 7 A The only issue that came up in that regard was 8 Mr. Rinder had reason to believe that Mr. Berry had -- had 9 had me -- I'll just speak for myself -- had had me sign an 10 affidavit, and then later Mr. Berry had added more pages to 11 the affidavit after I'd signed it. He had reason to 12 believe that because apparently -- apparently; this is 13 hearsay -- but that did happen to someone else. 14 Q Who? 15 A Vicki Aznaran. And Vicki Aznaran wrote it up, an 16 affidavit about that. 17 Q So you were willing to accept his offer and file 18 something saying that Mr. Berry had indeed -- 19 A No. 20 Q -- supplemented your affidavit? 21 A No, I was not willing. 22 Q What were you willing to do? 23 A I was willing to accept their offer, which was to 24 help us get on our feet. 25 Q And not -- not file anything in any court papers?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1358 1 A Yes. The idea of signing any affidavit in 2 which -- that idea that I had signed an affidavit and then 3 Mr. Berry had added pages to it later didn't come up until 4 the very last morning of our talks. 5 Q And you knew that allegation by Mr. Rinder was 6 false? 7 A Right. That's why we didn't sign the affidavit. 8 Q Now, Mr. Rinder did get Vicki Aznaran, after she 9 filed affidavits and gave depositions, to recant her 10 testimony, correct? 11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, who? 12 MR. DANDAR: Vicki Aznaran, A-z-n-a-r-a-n. 13 THE COURT: Had done what now? I'm sorry, I 14 was thinking about something else. 15 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'll do it again. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Isn't it true that Mr. Rinder did succeed in 18 getting Vicki Aznaran to file recantation affidavits after 19 she testified in depositions and gave declarations in 20 another case? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, foundation. If he 22 can establish a foundation that she has knowledge -- 23 THE COURT: If she has knowledge. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Do you have knowledge of that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1359 1 A The only knowledge I have is that -- what I just 2 said, that she filed an affidavit later saying that 3 Mr. Berry had -- had her sign an 8-page affidavit and then 4 later she was shown something like a 17- or 18-page 5 affidavit with information in it that she hadn't written. 6 Q And who told you that? 7 A I saw it. 8 Q You saw her declaration saying that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q How much money was she paid? 11 THE COURT: I think the foundation has been 12 laid, so I'll allow it. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q How much money was she paid? 15 A I have no idea. 16 Q She was the former president of RTC, correct? 17 A She was the deputy inspector general. 18 Q Okay. She wasn't the president? 19 A I know that she was the deputy inspector general. 20 She was Jesse Prince's senior. 21 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Yanny, an attorney for RTC, whose 22 declarations we filed in that same stack of October '99, 23 along with yours and Vaughn Young's declarations, he 24 also -- was he asked to recant his prior declarations? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Foundation.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1360 1 THE COURT: If she knows. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q If you know. 4 A I have no idea. 5 Q Okay. Do you recall Mr. Rinder going to former 6 Scientologist Gary Scarff and asking him and succeeding in 7 getting him to file recantation affidavits or declarations? 8 A I don't know about that. 9 Q Do you know who Bill Franks is? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Who was -- what was his last highest post in 12 Scientology? 13 A Back in 1982, I believe, he was executive 14 director international. 15 Q Was he appointed executive director international 16 for life by Mr. Hubbard? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Was he ousted from the Church -- 19 THE COURT: Wait. I didn't even hear an 20 answer to that. Maybe she doesn't know. 21 MR. DANDAR: I think she said she doesn't 22 know. 23 THE WITNESS: I said I don't know. 24 THE COURT: Oh, okay, I'm sorry. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1361 1 Q Was he ousted from the position in the Church of 2 Scientology by Mr. Miscavige? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. 4 Relevance. What's this have to do with this 5 proceeding, questions about Mr. Franks? 6 THE COURT: I would suspect that the 7 relevance is that Mr. Miscavige has authority over all 8 of Scientology. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, this is the person that 10 Mr. Dandar is now trying to substitute as a religion 11 expert. 12 THE COURT: Who? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Bill Franks -- Mr. Dandar is 14 now trying to use Mr. Franks as a religion expert. It 15 has nothing to do with this proceeding at all, as far 16 as I know. 17 MR. DANDAR: This proceeding is two-fold, as 18 you said yesterday and warned me -- 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. And then my 21 objection is foundation again to her personal 22 knowledge. 23 THE COURT: And I think she understands by 24 now that if she doesn't know that she will say she 25 doesn't know. So if she says she knows or she's read,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1362 1 then it comes in. If she doesn't know, she'll say she 2 doesn't know, and we'll move on to the next question. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Were you in the -- were you in OSA at the time 5 Mr. Franks was ousted from his position in the Church of 6 Scientology? 7 A No. 8 Q What post did you have at that time? Beginning 9 of '81 and beginning of '82. 10 A I was in the Guardian's Office. 11 THE COURT: Who is Mr. Franks again? This 12 is somebody you're going to ask to add -- 13 MR. DANDAR: This is what I was going to 14 address this morning and asked to do it later. But 15 I'll tell you right now that I was fortunate to find 16 him in Tampa yesterday -- 17 THE COURT: What is his name? 18 MR. DANDAR: Bill Franks. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DANDAR: And I had him subpoenaed. And 21 he called me up after I had him subpoenaed and let me 22 know that he was leaving the Tampa area tomorrow at 23 6 p.m., if I wanted him to testify about whatever it 24 is, if I could get him on the stand by 4:00 tomorrow 25 so he can make his plane connection. And I was going
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1363 1 to bring that up with you. 2 THE COURT: Okay. So we'll deal with that 3 at the right time. 4 MR. DANDAR: Right. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q So anyway, do you have -- the Guardian's Office, 7 just so the record is clear, the Guardian's Office, after 8 Mary Sue Hubbard and some others were prosecuted and 9 convicted of breaking into government offices, that 10 office's name was changed to the Office of Special Affairs. 11 Is that correct? 12 A Well, the Guardian's Office was actually done 13 away with and a new organization was created called the 14 Office of Special Affairs. 15 Q And are you aware that your husband, Vaughn 16 Young, who served in both offices, disagrees with what you 17 just said, that it was done away with? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Okay. The Guardian's Office is Department 20, is 22 it not? Was it not? 23 A Yes, it was. 24 Q Department 20? And isn't the Office of Special 25 Affairs also Department 20?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1364 1 A Yes. 2 Q And don't they basically do the same -- they have 3 the same function for the Church of Scientology? 4 A They have some of the same functions, yes. 5 Q Now, are you sure that when you saw Jesse Prince 6 leave the hearing in front of Judge Baird on April 9th, 7 2002, while Mr. Minton was testifying, that he left because 8 he thought Mr. Minton was going to jail? 9 A I'm sure that he told me that. 10 Q Did he also tell you that he left because he saw 11 his friend, Bob Minton, lying under oath in front of Judge 12 Baird? 13 A No. He told you that. He told me something 14 else. 15 Q How do you know what he told me? 16 A Well, I'm assuming he told you that because 17 you're asking me that and thinking that he told me the same 18 thing he told you, I guess. 19 Q So -- we can't have that. We can't speculate 20 what -- I mean, that's why I asked you. How do you know 21 what Jesse Prince told me? You're just guessing, right? 22 A That's right. 23 Q You're just guessing? 24 THE COURT: That's right, Counselor, unless 25 she has read it or seen it or something.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1365 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. What did Jesse Prince tell you that he 3 heard Bob Minton say in front of Judge Baird that led Jesse 4 Prince to conclude -- 5 THE COURT: Although, actually, if she has 6 seen Jesse Prince's affidavit -- 7 I think you may have said that. 8 THE WITNESS: That's true. 9 THE COURT: Did you read Jesse Prince's 10 affidavit? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 12 THE COURT: I think that was in the 13 affidavit. 14 MR. DANDAR: I just wanted to make sure it 15 wasn't a conversation. 16 THE COURT: So with that in mind that she 17 saw it, she has her reasons for suggesting that he may 18 have told you one thing and told her something else. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q What did Jesse Prince tell you -- 21 THE COURT: Asked and answered. 22 MR. DANDAR: No -- 23 THE COURT: Sorry. 24 MR. DANDAR: No, it hasn't. I don't think 25 so.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1366 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: She just told us. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q What did Jesse Prince tell you he heard Bob 5 Minton say in front of Judge Baird that led him to the 6 conclusion that Bob Minton was going to jail? 7 THE COURT: Okay. That's not been asked and 8 answered. 9 A He didn't tell me. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q When he told you that he left the hearing because 12 he thought Bob Minton was going to jail, did anyone ask him 13 to explain that? 14 A When he told me that, he was extremely distraught 15 about it, and I was more or less just listening to what he 16 was saying. And it wasn't really making much sense. 17 Q Now, the affidavit that you filed, your second 18 one, which is 34 paragraphs long, which we're just about to 19 get back into -- 20 THE COURT: What affidavit are we talking 21 about? 22 MR. DANDAR: The one that is the recantation 23 affidavit that is 34 paragraphs long. 24 THE COURT: We're not going to go through 25 old stuff.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1367 1 MR. DANDAR: No, no. I'm going to pick up 2 where I left off. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. DANDAR: Hopefully do it quickly. 5 THE COURT: Oh, yes, that's the one you 6 thought you could finish the other day, and I said no, 7 you can't, we're going to stop. All right. Is that 8 going to be the end? Are you going to be done then? 9 MR. DANDAR: No. 10 THE COURT: Oh, all right. 11 MR. DANDAR: But real close. 12 THE COURT: Good. 13 MR. DANDAR: That -- 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Only a few more days, Judge. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q This affidavit came after your first recantation 17 affidavit, correct? 18 A Okay. Now we're talking about my one that I 19 signed on April 29th again? 20 Q Yes. 21 A All right. So we're back to that. 22 Q Do you have that in front of you? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. In the first recantation affidavit, you 25 stated that upon information and belief, you thought there
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1368 1 was a secret agreement between the Estate and Bob Minton 2 and the Lisa McPherson Trust. Do you recall that? 3 A Let me just pull that out. 4 THE COURT: It looks like he wants to talk 5 about the affidavit that's signed 17 April -- 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: -- 2002. And then the other one 8 is April 29th. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was just pulling both 10 of those out. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Why did you phrase it "upon information and 15 belief"? 16 THE COURT: What -- tell me where you are so 17 I can look. 18 MR. DANDAR: I'm on -- 19 THE COURT: Which affidavit? 20 MR. DANDAR: The April 17th affidavit, page 21 2 of 4, paragraph 8A. 22 THE COURT: Okay. I see where you are. 23 A I think I testified earlier that my attorney 24 drafted quite a bit of this affidavit. So wherever you see 25 legal language like that --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1369 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that you have never 3 filed a declaration or affidavit using that language prior 4 to this time? 5 A That's probably true. It isn't something that I 6 would say. 7 Q And isn't it true that the reason why you used 8 this language "upon information and belief" is because you 9 don't know of any secret agreement personally, within your 10 personal knowledge, between the Estate and Bob Minton or 11 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 12 A No. 13 Q That's why this kind of shaky language is used? 14 A No. 15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 16 MR. McGOWAN: "No," and then that was the 17 answer. Move to strike that. 18 THE COURT: Move to strike what? 19 MR. McGOWAN: The comment of counsel after 20 the no, about the shaky language. 21 THE COURT: Well, I'm not sure if he was 22 done with his question -- 23 MR. DANDAR: I wasn't. 24 THE COURT: -- and she started to answer it 25 before he was done.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1370 1 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 2 THE COURT: But as far as the "shaky" or 3 whatever, that's just -- you know, I just understand 4 lawyers use language, and that part of it is not 5 important. I don't know if that's shaky or not. I 6 think that's how people do things sometimes. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Now, I'm going to just go ahead and try to finish 9 this affidavit, and then I'll get back to something here. 10 Look at paragraph -- let's go to April -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Just so I'm clear, I was 12 confused on the end of the question and the answer. 13 Could we have it read back? Did he say that that's 14 true and she said no or -- 15 THE COURT: No, I don't think so. I think 16 he said "isn't it true that." 17 MR. FUGATE: Oh. 18 THE COURT: And she said, "No, that is not 19 true." In other words, I presume from that it is her 20 testimony that she was aware of an agreement. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, if you've got that -- 22 THE COURT: I got that. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I got that too. 24 THE COURT: Did I get that right? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1371 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q This is the first time you ever used the phrase 3 "upon information and belief"? 4 THE COURT: I understood that too. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q All right. Here we go. Put that away and take 7 out the April 29th one and turn to paragraph 28. 8 A Okay. 9 Q And the second sentence that starts out, "I told 10 him I wanted to call Mrs. Liebreich and set up a meeting." 11 Do you see that? 12 A Wait a second. 13 Q I'm sorry. Okay? And you say, "I wanted to tell 14 her we could not continue our lies because Scientology was 15 closing in." What do you mean by "Scientology was closing 16 in"? 17 A I think I made that pretty clear in paragraph 27. 18 No, I'm sorry, not paragraph 27; paragraph 26. I was 19 becoming increasingly concerned, as I think I've said 20 several times, that Scientology's discovery actions with 21 regard to me and Mr. Minton were -- were getting to be such 22 that he and I both were -- were on a course of action that 23 was going to get us in a lot of legal trouble. 24 Q That concerned the not complying with discovery 25 orders of the Court, as you say in paragraph 26, correct?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1372 1 A And particularly Mr. Minton's perjury. 2 Q Well, where do you say that? Where do you say 3 that in particular, "Mr. Minton's perjury"? That's not in 4 paragraph 26, 27, or 28. 5 THE COURT: But she does say in paragraph 28 6 it's only a matter of time before "our" perjury. I 7 assume that means "our," hers and Mr. Minton's. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. I made 9 it as clear as I could. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Okay. Now, you also say in here that Mr. Minton 12 agreed with you to call up Dell Liebreich in August of 2001 13 and -- or, go meet with her to tell her to drop the case. 14 A Yes. He wanted me to do that, although, as it 15 says here, he didn't believe that she would. 16 Q Now, did you ever talk to Mr. Minton after he 17 gave his October 2001 deposition to Mr. Rosen in the case 18 before Judge Baird where he denied having any prior 19 knowledge of you trying to go see Dell Liebreich on your 20 own? 21 A I'm not familiar with that deposition transcript. 22 Q So if Mr. Minton testified that he didn't know 23 until you were about to go and told you not to go, that 24 wouldn't be a true statement, would it, according to 25 paragraph 28 of this April 29th affidavit.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1373 1 A Correct. 2 Q Did you ever tell Mr. Minton he needed to recant 3 that statement in his October 2001 deposition since it was 4 a lie? 5 A I didn't know he made that statement. 6 Q Did you read that deposition? 7 A No. 8 Q In fact, in that deposition, that answer in front 9 of Mr. Rosen, he used the F word to describe and quote what 10 he told you about your idea to go to see Dell Liebreich by 11 yourself. Do you know that? 12 A I think I just said I didn't read it. 13 THE COURT: Look, it isn't important if she 14 read it. 15 I suppose the real question is, Did he do 16 that? I mean, when this occurred, whatever this 17 discussion was between you all about calling Dell 18 Liebreich, did he tell you -- 19 What was your question? Not to -- 20 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Using the F word and telling you 22 not to? 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q "No blanking way are you going to go see Dell 25 Liebreich." Did he ever tell you that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1374 1 A He may have used the F word, but not in that 2 sentence. 3 Q Okay. 4 A He would have used the F word in saying this 5 thing that I say here, in somewhat more genteel language, 6 that he did not believe she would drop the case. 7 Q Now, look at paragraph 30. Paragraph 30, you 8 talk about what's going on in August of 2001, when you did 9 [sic] go see Ms. Liebreich, and you wanted to distance 10 yourself more from the wrongful death case -- 11 A When I did go see Ms. Liebreich? What -- 12 Q Paragraph 30. It says you wanted to distance 13 yourself -- you, Mr. Minton, the LMT -- from the wrongful 14 death case. 15 A But I think what you said was after I did go see 16 Ms. Liebreich. I didn't. 17 Q No, after you did not go to see Ms. Liebreich -- 18 A Oh, okay. 19 Q -- it starts off in paragraph 30. 20 A All right. 21 Q Go down in the middle there where it says you 22 informed Mr. Dandar that "I would not appear as a witness 23 in the case." Are you saying under oath in this 24 declaration affidavit that you informed me in August of 25 2001 that you would not be a witness in the case?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1375 1 A Yes. 2 Q Isn't it true, ma'am, that you have never been 3 listed as a witness in the wrongful death case? 4 A No. 5 Q When were you listed as a witness? 6 A Well, the whole reason all this stuff was 7 happening and Scientology was being able to pull me into 8 all these depositions and all this discovery is because I 9 had been variously identified by you as either a consultant 10 or an expert witness. 11 Q You were never listed by the Estate as a 12 testifying expert witness for trial, were you? 13 A Was I -- 14 (A cell phone sounded.) 15 THE COURT: Mr. Bailiff, we can't just have 16 this. These phones just go off regularly. Nobody 17 cares a thing about the fact that I don't want phones 18 to go off in here. 19 THE BAILIFF: There's a sign out there. 20 I'll talk to her. 21 THE COURT: Put up a big sign. Write it on 22 a piece of paper and post it on the door -- 23 THE BAILIFF: Yes. 24 SEVERAL SPEAKERS: -- and say "Turn off all 25 cell phones before you enter this courtroom."
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1376 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, there is a sign. 2 THE COURT: There is? Nobody pays any 3 attention. Maybe I ought to put up a sign. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe we're getting close to 5 that federal rule. 6 THE COURT: Yes. This is going to happen. 7 You know, I don't like to see the state courts run 8 like the federal courts, to be honest. I think 9 they're far too formal. 10 THE WITNESS: What happens in the federal? 11 THE COURT: You have to give up your cell 12 phone. You walk into court with it -- I mean, you 13 can't. They take it as security. So the lawyers 14 leave their cell phones in the car -- so do other 15 people -- because if they bring them in, they 16 confiscate them or tell them to take them back to the 17 car. So nobody can have a cell phone in the 18 courtroom, unless they hide it. If they hide it and 19 then if it goes off, they're in deep trouble in 20 federal court. 21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, is Mr. Dandar 22 referring to the statements that she made or that all 23 the various times that she represented that she would 24 be a witness? 25 THE COURT: I don't know, and I don't know
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1377 1 that this witness would know that. I mean, she was 2 clearly -- in my mind, as I sit here, she was a 3 consultant for Mr. Dandar. 4 MR. MOXON: Filing papers -- 5 THE COURT: She might not know whether a 6 consultant necessarily would be listed as a witness or 7 not. So she probably doesn't know that. 8 MR. MOXON: Okay. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Now, paragraph 32 -- 11 THE COURT: Is that right? In other words, 12 you would never have asked to see a document showing 13 you that you were listed as a witness or you weren't 14 listed as a witness. 15 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor, 16 but I did know that Mr. Dandar had identified me at 17 various points as a witness. 18 THE COURT: Either an expert witness or 19 consultant or something like that? 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 THE COURT: There is a difference. A 22 consultant is generally not a witness. A consultant, 23 there's work product privilege -- 24 THE WITNESS: Correct. 25 THE COURT: -- between the two people. An
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1378 1 expert witness is usually identified as someone who is 2 going to come in to court and testify as an expert. 3 And it was my understanding that you were not listed 4 as an expert witness, that Jesse Prince was. I don't 5 know, maybe you were. 6 MR. DANDAR: Jesse Prince and Vaughn Young. 7 MR. MOXON: In actual fact, she was, your 8 Honor. Mr. Dandar represented she would appear as a 9 witness in the case in answers to interrogatories. 10 THE COURT: She wouldn't know that either. 11 MR. MOXON: No. That was just Mr. Dandar's 12 representation. 13 THE WITNESS: I didn't. That's what I was 14 responding to. And also, Mr. Dandar had spoken to me 15 about the fact that he had some concerns about Jesse 16 Prince's credibility and wondered if maybe I would be 17 better, except then I had some credibility problems, 18 too, because of my relationship with Mr. Minton. But 19 he had spoken to me about the possibility of being an 20 expert for him as recently as that summer. 21 So I thought it was important for me to -- 22 THE COURT: Let him know you weren't going 23 to do that. 24 THE WITNESS: Let him know. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1379 1 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that you and I and Dan 2 Leipold had a telephone conversation about you being so 3 upset that I was -- that I would never consider you to be a 4 testifying expert in the wrongful death case? Do you 5 recall that? 6 A I don't understand your question. 7 Q Do you recall a three-way telephone conversation 8 between you, me, and Dan Leipold where you expressed how 9 upset you were because I wouldn't name you as a testifying 10 expert in the wrongful death case? 11 A No. 12 MR. McGOWAN: Could we have a time frame, 13 your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Well, she already said no. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Okay. Now, let's go to paragraph 32. When did I 17 ask Mr. Minton to meet me in Nashville, Tennessee? 18 A Do you want to skip paragraph 31? 19 Q We already talked about it. I don't want to 20 repeat it. When did I ask Mr. Minton to meet me in 21 Nashville, Tennessee? 22 A Let me just -- as I recall, it was in January. 23 Q This year? 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right. And that's because Mr. Minton had
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1380 1 called me up and said he wanted to meet me and suggested 2 Atlanta, Georgia, first. Do you recall that? 3 A Mr. Dandar, you were e-mailing Mr. Minton begging 4 him -- 5 THE COURT: Answer that question. Is the 6 answer no? 7 A No. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Do you recall Mr. Minton suggesting that I meet 10 him in Atlanta, Georgia, in January 2002? 11 A He may have suggested that as an alternative to 12 Nashville. I don't recall. 13 Q You were on the phone. Do you recall that 14 conversation? 15 A I don't, but I can imagine that that could have 16 happened since we have a house in Atlanta and he might have 17 thought that would be easier. 18 Q And you recall -- 19 A I don't know it never happened. 20 THE COURT: Wait, Counselor. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q And do you recall him saying that he did not want 23 to come to Florida at all? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And do you recall me telling him, "Well, meet me
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1381 1 in Nashville because I'm going to go take the deposition of 2 Dr. Fogo at Vanderbilt and I'll be there if you want to 3 come see and talk to me"? 4 A No, I don't, Mr. Dandar. 5 Q You don't recall Nashville being suggested? 6 A Yes, I do recall that, but I do not recall it 7 being Mr. Minton's -- at Mr. Minton's instigation. 8 Q Do you recall Dr. Garko being on the phone for 9 that conversation? 10 A I think I said I don't really recall the 11 conversation. 12 Q Okay. And then the Cayman Islands was suggested 13 by me because I had a family vacation in the Cayman Islands 14 in January. Do you recall that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And your affidavit, of course, states that 17 I'm the one that was demanding a meeting or requesting a 18 meeting with Mr. Minton. But the truth of the matter is it 19 was Mr. Minton who was requesting a meeting with me. Isn't 20 that true? 21 A Wrong. 22 Q Isn't it also true that Mr. Minton would never 23 tell me in January or February until I came to New 24 Hampshire why he wanted to meet with me? 25 A He didn't want to meet with you, Mr. Dandar. You
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1382 1 wanted to meet with him and said so repeatedly -- in 2 writing too, so . . . 3 Q Where is the writing? 4 A I think you'll see it. 5 Q Okay. Now, when we came to New Hampshire, 6 Dr. Garko -- 7 THE COURT: I don't know what is happening, 8 "I think you'll see it." 9 MR. DANDAR: I guess I'll wait for 10 Mr. Minton. 11 THE COURT: Oh, Mr. Minton has it? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Okay. You mean when he 14 testifies it may be something -- 15 THE WITNESS: I would expect so. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q When Dr. Garko and I arrived in New Hampshire the 19 last weekend of February 2002, you greeted us in the 20 airport, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And Mr. Minton was waiting outside by his SUV, 23 correct? 24 A Yes. In it, in his SUV. 25 Q Okay. And he stated he was in the SUV because he
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1383 1 didn't want to be accosted by Scientology operatives inside 2 the airport. Is that right? 3 A I don't remember that. 4 Q Okay. And when you and I met, we gave each other 5 a big hug, didn't we? 6 A As a matter of fact -- excuse me. Let me just go 7 back to the earlier question. I believe that by that time 8 he was not really even wanting to be seen with you. 9 Q Okay. When you and I met, we gave each other a 10 big hug, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And Dr. Garko gave you a hug as well? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And then when we went with you and Mr. Minton in 15 the SUV, we went to the supermarket, didn't we? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Where all the public members of the world who 18 gather in that town go to shop to buy food. And Mr. Minton 19 was seen with me walking through the supermarket, wasn't 20 he? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you and Dr. Garko. 23 A Yes, and we bought you some grapefruit. 24 Q And we went to Mr. Minton's farmhouse, and you 25 cooked a great Indian dish.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1384 1 A Thank you. 2 THE COURT: Is there something relevant 3 here? 4 MR. DANDAR: Here it is. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q And just before we sat down to dinner -- 8 THE COURT: Maybe we can all get together 9 and have a nice dinner. Ms. Brooks will be cooking. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm a very good Indian cook. 11 THE COURT: Well, good. I don't know much 12 about Indian food, but I would like to try. 13 MR. DANDAR: It was wonderful. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And just before we sat down for dinner, 16 Mr. Minton had this emotional breakdown in front of all of 17 us, didn't he? 18 A Well, he started to tell you about the reasons 19 why he was upset with you, and he got very upset. 20 THE COURT: Is that a yes? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well -- you know, your 22 Honor, I'm not sure I would call it an emotional 23 breakdown. That's my problem with the question. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1385 1 Q Well, he was crying, wasn't he? 2 A Yes, he was. 3 Q And he was crying uncontrollably, wasn't he? 4 A He was crying. 5 Q In fact, the only other time when I was in his 6 presence with you when he was crying like that was in his 7 house on Belleair Beach. Is that right? 8 A Uh -- 9 Q Do you recall that? 10 A I do recall that. I don't know if that was the 11 only time in your presence. 12 Q And in this New Hampshire house, he said he was 13 crying because he thought I was no longer his friend. Do 14 you recall that? 15 A Would you like for me to tell you what I recall? 16 Q No. I just want you to answer yes or no. 17 A I don't recall those words. 18 Q You don't recall that? 19 A What I recall him saying is he could no longer 20 trust you or the Estate or Dell Liebreich. 21 Q Isn't it true, yes or no, Mr. Minton said at that 22 point that he was so upset because he thought I was no 23 longer his friend? 24 A Okay. I think I just said I don't recall that. 25 Q Okay. Isn't it true that Mr. Minton said he was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1386 1 so upset because of all the attacks the critic community 2 was sending his way on the Internet about stopping the 3 funding of the Lisa McPherson Trust case? 4 A He said he felt you were orchestrating that 5 campaign via your new trial consultant -- 6 THE COURT: Is that a yes, that he did say 7 that he was upset about that? You've got to answer 8 the question, ma'am. Then you need to explain it if 9 you can. Did he say he was upset about the Internet 10 campaign criticizing him for not funding the lawsuit 11 anymore? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, but the thing he was 13 particularly upset about was he felt Mr. Dandar was 14 orchestrating the campaign to try to put pressure on 15 him to continue funding. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q And isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that I went up to 18 Mr. Minton and told him that I was still his friend even if 19 he wasn't funding the case anymore? 20 A Yes, Mr. Dandar, that is true. You did say that. 21 Q And when we sat down at the dinner table, 22 Mr. Minton had composed himself. Isn't it true that 23 Mr. Minton sat across from me at the table, straight 24 across? 25 THE COURT: We're talking four people. You
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1387 1 almost have to sit beside somebody or across from 2 somebody. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Right? 5 A I suppose that's true. 6 Q It's a 50-50 chance. 7 A 50-50. 8 Q And at that dinner table, isn't it true 9 Mr. Minton told me he has no more funding for the case? 10 A Yes. He told you that a number of times that 11 week. 12 Q And isn't it true at that time he said, "But I 13 have a friend in Europe who may consider sending you 14 money"? 15 A I don't recall that. 16 Q And didn't he say, "Let's call him the fat man"? 17 A I don't recall that. What I recall is that he 18 told you repeatedly over the weekend that he wasn't going 19 to fund the case anymore. 20 Q And isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that at that 21 dinner table he also said that this person in Europe would 22 want me to send a letter to Bob Minton to explain that I am 23 still his friend and how highly I consider him, Bob Minton? 24 A Yes, as a matter of fact, I do remember that. 25 Q Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1388 1 A And I know that Mr. Minton had told me earlier 2 that you and he had agreed that he needed to couch it in 3 those terms in front of Dr. Garko. 4 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MR. DANDAR: Unresponsive. 7 THE COURT: That is unresponsive. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Now, turn to paragraph 33. On Sunday morning in 10 New Hampshire at Mr. Minton's farmhouse -- 11 THE COURT: I hope you all don't think that 12 if we ever get to trial that I'll let witnesses be 13 like -- this is a different hearing. 14 MR. FUGATE: Well, I certainly know that you 15 won't be. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Paragraph 33 -- wait a minute. Sorry. Oh, yes, 18 paragraph 33, you allege that I was coaching Mr. Minton on 19 how to answer the 80 or 90 questions that Judge Schaeffer 20 had ordered him to answer, correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Okay. Now, isn't it true that on Sunday morning 23 in Mr. Minton's farmhouse you, I, and Dr. Garko sat down 24 with Mr. Minton, and I started to go over the Judge's order 25 to show cause?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1389 1 A You went over each one of the questions listed. 2 Q And isn't it true as we went over each one of 3 those 80 or 90 questions, I kept telling Mr. Minton, "All 4 you've got to do is answer the question. There's no reason 5 to plead the Fifth Amendment"? 6 A On some of them you said that, yes. 7 Q Isn't it true that I never told Bob Minton to lie 8 under oath when he reconvened his deposition in the 9 wrongful death case? 10 A That you didn't say those words? 11 Q Yes. 12 A Yes, that's true. 13 Q I never told him to lie, did I? 14 A You never said -- you never said the words "you 15 should lie." That's true. 16 THE COURT: Or "commit perjury" or any of 17 those words like that? 18 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 19 THE COURT: I mean, I'm not asking you what 20 he said, but when I hear "lie," all I'm saying is did 21 he say "I want you to lie" or did he say "I want you 22 to commit perjury"? 23 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. He just 24 suggested ways that the questions could be answered 25 that would be untruthful. But he didn't say those
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1390 1 words. He didn't. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q All right. Well, then let's go -- tell the Court 4 what I said that caused you to believe that I was 5 suggesting in any detail whatsoever that Mr. Minton answer 6 a question that was untruthful. 7 A Okay. 8 THE COURT: If you remember. 9 A What I remember is you talking about the fact 10 that he only had to disclose checks he'd written. And I 11 remember having the distinct impression that you were 12 suggesting that he leave out that check that he had given 13 you. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q That one check in May of 2000, out of the 10 or 16 12 checks that he wrote out of his personal account? 17 A No. It was a $500,000 check -- 18 Q Yes. 19 A -- so it was really substantial. 20 Q So how did I suggest, as you say, to Mr. Minton 21 on this Sunday morning that he could answer the question 22 and lie or not be truthful in his answer? 23 A I think I just said. You said, "Bob, you only 24 have to talk about checks that you wrote." 25 Q And at that time, were we not all under the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1391 1 impression that Mr. Minton -- his funds were not used for 2 that May 2000 check? 3 A No. I thought it had been and so did you. And 4 Bob had actually taken Mr. Prince and I up under the roof 5 after he gave that you check and told us that you didn't 6 want it known to his -- I mean to yourself that you had 7 gotten that money from Mr. Minton. 8 Q Isn't it true that when you went up on the roof 9 with Jesse Prince in May of 2000 that it was Bob Minton who 10 said he didn't want Scientology to know that he had given a 11 check through this third party in Switzerland? 12 A No, Mr. Dandar, that's not true. 13 Q Okay. 14 THE COURT: Can you tell me why -- I don't 15 understand why somebody went to the roof to talk. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, at the time, your 17 Honor -- 18 THE COURT: I mean, is it a roof where they 19 have a big garden and a -- 20 THE WITNESS: No, no, no. 21 THE COURT: This is not a roof where one 22 goes to sit and use the pool, like at my condominium? 23 THE WITNESS: No, no. 24 THE COURT: Why did we go to the roof? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, you probably want to ask
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1392 1 Mr. Minton that question -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: -- but I can tell you my 4 understanding of why, is that at the time we were at 5 the LMT office and there were these video cameras 6 trained on the -- going up to the roof was a good 7 place to go to not be seen or listened to by anybody 8 in that particular area. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q You had a video camera trained on the entrances 12 to the Lisa McPherson Trust offices operated by the Church 13 of Scientology, didn't you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You also found when you moved into those offices 16 that someone had wiretapped the phone lines to that office. 17 A Well, we found that something had happened to the 18 wiring, and we were never able to determine whether it had 19 been a tap or not, because it's an old building and the 20 phone man said it could have just been earlier wiring. We 21 were never sure. 22 Q Now, you said -- I'm done with the affidavit. 23 You said that when you testified in June of 2000, which is 24 just a month after Mr. Minton testified in May of 2000 -- 25 and you said that this anonymous $500,000 came to the LMT.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1393 1 You testified that way because that's what Mr. Minton told 2 you. Right? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Do you have any reason at the time you 5 testified -- at the time you testified in June of 2000 that 6 what Mr. Minton told you about that check was untruthful? 7 A No. 8 Q When did Mr. Minton tell you that what he told 9 you and what you testified about on June of 2000 was a lie? 10 A I think shortly after the LMT was dissolved. 11 Q So it was in December of 2001? 12 A Well -- 13 Q Or August? 14 A The LMT went dormant as a corporation in early 15 September, so it could have been perhaps October. I don't 16 remember. 17 Q Well, you gave a deposition on August 15th of 18 2001. Did you know about it then? 19 A No. 20 Q Didn't you give a deposition after that in the 21 breach of contract case? 22 A I don't recall. I don't believe so. 23 Q Okay. But you knew that Mr. Minton gave a 24 deposition in September of 2000 and in October of 2001 -- 25 September 2001 and October of 2001. Is that right?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1394 1 A If he gave them, I'm sure I knew. 2 Q Did you tell Mr. Minton to plead the Fifth 3 Amendment to that question so that you wouldn't be found to 4 have not told the truth in June of 2000? 5 A No. 6 Q Has Mr. Minton told you why he pled the Fifth 7 Amendment to the questions in September and October of 8 2001? 9 A He had met with his attorneys extensively 10 beforehand, and I wasn't privy to those conversations. 11 Q I know. But did he tell you afterwards why he 12 pled the Fifth Amendment to the questions that he did plead 13 the Fifth Amendment to in the September and October 2001 14 depositions? 15 A Well, I can tell you what he did tell me. 16 Q Yes. 17 A He told me that he was trying to avoid having to 18 lie under oath anymore. 19 Q About what? 20 A Well, he didn't specify, but I assumed it was the 21 same things that he had been upset about lying about for 22 you. 23 Q And that's this -- that's this May 2000 check for 24 $500,000 and the so-called secret agreement. That's it, 25 right? There's nothing else that he was concerned about,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1395 1 was there. 2 A I think -- 3 THE COURT: He sure took the Fifth Amendment 4 a lot more questions than that. 5 MR. DANDAR: I know. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm just telling you what he 7 told me. 8 THE COURT: And he made it clear at the 9 beginning of his deposition that he was going to take 10 the Fifth Amendment and why, so that's clear. Did you 11 read that? As to why he said he was taking the Fifth? 12 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I did, your 13 Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Then she wouldn't know. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q I'm not going to ask you questions, but look at 18 your affidavit, the twenty- -- 34-paragraph one that we 19 just went through. But that affidavit includes a whole lot 20 more than just the wrongful death case and the breach of 21 contract case, right? 22 A Which affidavit are we talking about? 23 Q The last one, the 34-paragraph one. 24 A Okay. 25 Q That includes allegations in there about Dan
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1396 1 Leipold and Ford Greene, who were California attorneys. 2 A Is Ford Greene in here? I don't remember that. 3 Where is Ford Greene? 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, whatever it 5 contains, it contains. 6 THE COURT: Right. 7 MR. McGOWAN: It speaks for itself. 8 THE COURT: I do remember something about 9 Mr. Leipold. I don't know who Ford Greene is, so I 10 might not know who that is. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Oh, I'm sorry, Dan Leipold and Graham Berry on 13 paragraph 2 -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- of that affidavit. 16 A M'hum (affirmative). 17 THE COURT: "M'hum," she -- 18 A Yes, I'm sorry, yes. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You put in Dan Leipold's name and Graham Berry's 21 name because it was suggested to you by Mr. Rinder or 22 Ms. Yingling that you needed to do that. Isn't that true? 23 A That's not correct. 24 Q In fact, you do know that this affidavit was used 25 by Mr. Rosen in the Wollersheim case a few weeks ago to try
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1397 1 to get Mr. Leipold disqualified. Do you know that? 2 A Mr. Lirot told me that. 3 Q Did you know that? 4 A No, I didn't know that. 5 Q Did you know when you signed this affidavit that 6 the Church of Scientology was going to use this to try to 7 get Mr. Leipold disqualified in the Wollersheim case? 8 A No, I didn't. 9 Q Do you know that after that 20-minute hearing 10 before the judge in California, within two weeks the Church 11 of Scientology paid him the full amount of the judgment 12 with interest? 13 A I knew that the judgment was paid. 14 THE COURT: Are you suggesting that the 15 judge out there was able to conclude this hearing that 16 I'm taking all this time in 20 minutes? 17 MR. DANDAR: I hate to tell you that, but -- 18 THE COURT: Oh. 19 MR. DANDAR: I'm sure it didn't involve all 20 of the same issues. 21 THE COURT: One would hope not. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Now, when you and Mr. Minton called me on the 24 evening of Good Friday, March 29th, of 2002, Mr. Minton 25 said on the phone that he concluded the discussions with
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1398 1 Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder that day and that I had to get 2 Dell Liebreich to dismiss the Lisa McPherson case? 3 THE COURT: I'm sorry, my head was out in 4 California, how a judge could do this in 20 minutes, 5 trying to think if I could make a phone call. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, actually, I 7 don't think he addressed the issue. He was going to, 8 and he never reached it. 9 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Well, that makes me 10 feel better. 11 So ask your question again, because I was 12 thinking about that. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q When you and Mr. Minton called me on the evening 15 of Good Friday, March 29th, 2002, isn't it true that 16 Mr. Minton told me that the Lisa McPherson case had to be 17 dismissed? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And isn't it true that when I told him how 20 outrageous that request was, he told me that that request 21 to dismiss the case came from the representatives of the 22 Church of Scientology in that meeting on March the 29th? 23 A I don't recall that. 24 Q Isn't it true that in the meetings on March 28th 25 or March the 29th of 2002, either Mr. Rosen or Ms. Yingling
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1399 1 or Mr. Rinder said the Lisa McPherson case had to be 2 dismissed? 3 A I think I've already testified about this. 4 THE COURT: Answer it again, please. 5 A What I -- 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Is it yes or no? 8 A No. 9 Q Did the words "dismissal of the Lisa McPherson 10 case" ever come up in your discussions? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Which way? How? 13 A I can't remember if it was Mr. Rinder or 14 Mr. Rosen -- I think it was Mr. Rinder, actually -- said 15 basically, before they would consider any kind of 16 settlement with us, they would require that we set the 17 record straight in the wrongful death case. And during 18 that conversation, either Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen said that 19 they felt that if we set the record straight, the case 20 would end up being dismissed. 21 Q Isn't it true during your conversation with me, 22 Bob Minton, and yourself on the night of March 29th the 23 words "set the record straight" was never mentioned? 24 A That's probably true. 25 Q Isn't it true in that conversation that Bob
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1400 1 Minton said if the case was not dismissed immediately the, 2 quote, blood and death of his daughters, his wife, and 3 himself would be on my hands? 4 A I think he said "the blood." 5 Q Did he say "blood and death" or just "blood"? 6 A I think just "blood." 7 Q Okay. 8 A But, you know. 9 Q Do you know what Mr. Minton meant when he used 10 the word "blood"? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What? 13 A It was a fairly dramatic way of saying -- and I 14 think he also said that you and he were both going to go 15 down -- 16 THE COURT: Before you get into the rest of 17 it, tell him -- he asked you what it meant. So -- 18 THE WITNESS: Well, okay. It was a fairly 19 dramatic way of -- I mean, he wasn't -- it was just a 20 dramatic way of saying that they were going to both be 21 destroyed. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And then when I said there was no way my client 24 would dismiss the case, did you say to me, "Then send all 25 the money back that Bob Minton has ever given to you"?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1401 1 A I said then you should send the money back, yes. 2 Q And Bob Minton said, "No, I don't care about the 3 money." Do you remember that? 4 A I don't remember what he said about it, but I 5 certainly remember telling you that you should return the 6 money. 7 Q Now, we're going to come back to that, but I just 8 remembered something. August of 2001 isn't the first time 9 you threatened to try to shut down the Lisa McPherson 10 wrongful death, isn't it? 11 A I think it is. 12 Q Do you recall calling me on my birthday? 13 A When is your birthday? 14 Q On January 22nd, when the Church of Scientology 15 was trying to take the deposition of Maria Pia Gardini, a 16 former Scientologist from Italy? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Could we have a year, please? 18 THE COURT: Well, if she remembers. Maybe 19 she'll remember the year. 20 Do you know the year? 21 MR. DANDAR: I don't know the year. She was 22 only here once. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q When was she in town, what year? 25 THE COURT: If you all took the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1402 1 deposition -- was the deposition taken? 2 MR. DANDAR: No, I don't think so. 3 THE COURT: Well, is there a notice of 4 taking deposition? 5 MR. DANDAR: I don't think so. I don't know 6 what happened, but -- 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Do you remember calling me on my birthday, I 9 believe in 2001, telling me when I was at lunch with my 10 staff that I didn't stop the deposition of Maria Pia 11 Gardini you were going to shut the case down? 12 A I don't remember what I said, but I do remember 13 being very upset about your not wanting -- not being 14 willing to do anything to protect Maria Pia Gardini. 15 Q Now, the Wollersheim judgment was paid in full 16 with interest out in California. Did Bob Minton contribute 17 at all to the payment of that money? 18 A Not to my knowledge, although I know it's been 19 reported that he did on the Internet. 20 THE COURT: What money? The settlement 21 money? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes, 8.6 plus million dollars. 23 THE COURT: Oh, you're asking if he 24 contributed money to Scientology, whoever the 25 defendant is, to pay the money.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1403 1 MR. DANDAR: Right. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q As far as you know, he didn't? 4 A No, Mr. Dandar. 5 THE COURT: Well, he didn't have a judgment 6 against him, did he? 7 MR. DANDAR: No. 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: No. But the theory that's 11 been propagated is that Mr. Minton was required by 12 Scientology to pay the $8 million. 13 THE COURT: Oh. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Now, the -- when Mr. Rosen or Mr. -- when 16 Mr. Rosen, I think, was talking to you and Bob Minton in 17 March 28 of 2002 in New York City, he did mention something 18 about a RICO suit, correct? 19 A Yes -- 20 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, Judge. This has 21 been covered. 22 THE COURT: It has been, that's true. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Did he mention the figure of $110 million? 25 A I don't recall that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1404 1 Q Did he show you any paperwork that he had in his 2 possession? 3 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, this is asked and 4 answered. This whole meeting has been -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Remember, there was the lists 6 they talked about and the cases -- 7 THE COURT: Right. I don't recall 8 whether -- if she was asked whether the figure 110 had 9 been -- 10 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, because you had even 11 questioned the witness about it, I understand it's not 12 a prosecutor, a civil lawyer, civil and criminal 13 offense. 14 THE COURT: Now I remember. Sustained. 15 Thank you. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Did Mr. Rosen show you and Mr. Minton an actual 18 draft of a complaint? 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q Do you remember telling anybody that you saw an 21 actual draft of a RICO complaint that had Bob Minton's name 22 on it, my name on it -- 23 A No. 24 Q -- Dan Leipold's name on it? 25 A That didn't happen.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1405 1 Q During the evening telephone call you and Bob 2 Minton made to me on Good Friday, March 29th, isn't it true 3 that Bob Minton said that Scientology had discovered 4 something very damaging about its finances in Switzerland? 5 A No, Mr. Dandar, that is not true. 6 Q After you and Bob Minton and Jesse Prince had 7 this falling out on Sunday, April 14th, at the hotel on the 8 beach during dinner, did you go to Jesse Prince's house to 9 celebrate your birthday? 10 A No. 11 Q Not that day, but the following week or the 12 following two weeks? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you -- did you celebrate your birthday at any 15 time in 2002 at Jesse Prince's house here in Clearwater? 16 A Yes. 17 Q When? 18 A Right after the hearing on April 9th before Judge 19 Baird. Bob and I both went over to Jesse's house. Jesse 20 wasn't there. But Dee was there and several other people 21 were there, and they gave me some little gifts. 22 Q When Jesse Prince met you and Bob Minton on 23 Sunday evening, April 14th, did Bob Minton tell Jesse that 24 there were some things that he had to recant in his prior 25 deposition or declarations or affidavits in the Lisa
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1406 1 McPherson case? 2 A Did Bob Minton tell Jesse that? 3 Q Yes. 4 A I don't believe he specified. I don't recall 5 that he specified in what case. But I do -- he did suggest 6 to Mr. Prince that there might be some of his testimony 7 that he might want to review for possible recantation. 8 Q Was that in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 9 case? 10 A Again, I don't think that was specified. 11 Q Or was it in the Wollersheim case, where 12 Mr. Prince is an expert witness? 13 A Well, are you asking me now or are you asking me 14 what he said then? 15 Q What he said then. 16 A I don't think he specified. 17 Q Did Bob Minton ever tell Jesse Prince that he had 18 to recant testimony in any case before Mr. Rinder would 19 talk to him about settlement? 20 A I don't think we ever got that far in our 21 conversation. 22 Q Did Bob Minton ever tell Jesse Prince in April or 23 May of 2002 that Jesse Prince would have to change any of 24 his prior testimony in any case? 25 A Only what I just said.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1407 1 Q Okay. Let's switch now to the Lisa McPherson 2 Trust. Isn't it true at the first board of directors 3 meeting of the Lisa McPherson Trust, Bob Minton announced 4 that he had gifted $3 million to the Lisa McPherson Trust 5 for it to operate for three years? 6 A I don't recall that he said 3 million. 7 Q What did he say? 8 A I thought that he said he was going to provide a 9 million dollars. 10 Q Did he use the word "provide" or did he use the 11 word "gifted"? 12 A I don't remember what he said. 13 Q Did anyone take minutes of that first board of 14 directors meeting? 15 A Yes, a little bit. 16 Q Who? 17 A Brian Haney. 18 Q Brian Haney held what office in the Lisa 19 McPherson Trust at that time? 20 A He was the secretary on the board. Briefly. 21 Q Now, these meetings that you had with Mr. Rinder 22 and Mr. Rosen, Ms. Yingling, why did you and Bob Minton 23 agree to keep those meetings secret? 24 A Well, Mr. Jonas -- I think I get into 25 attorney/client privilege if I answer.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1408 1 Q He's not your attorney. 2 A Yes, he is. He's my attorney for the -- for the 3 purpose of those settlement talks. 4 THE COURT: Of a settlement talk up in New 5 York? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Okay. He's not your attorney 8 now for -- 9 THE WITNESS: He's not my attorney here now; 10 Mr. McGowan is. But for the purpose of that -- 11 THE COURT: Meeting in New York? 12 THE WITNESS: For that situation, he is. 13 For the purposes of that confidentiality agreement, he 14 is. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Who suggested that the meetings with Scientology 17 be kept secret? 18 A Can I answer that without violating -- without 19 waiving my attorney/client privilege? 20 MR. DANDAR: I'm not going to insist there's 21 a waiver of anything. I'm saying she can answer that 22 and there's no waiver. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 A Mr. Jonas. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1409 1 Q Are you aware of any lies that Mr. Minton said in 2 his depositions of September or October of 2001? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. 4 THE COURT: Yes. That's -- I mean, the only 5 thing that I would allow her to testify is about 6 anything Mr. Minton said, when he said "I lied about" 7 this, this, and this or something like that. But I 8 don't know if she's reviewed his deposition. Lord, 9 I've reviewed all the depositions and can't remember. 10 That's why I asked you all to give me a sheet that 11 said when he said this, because I -- too complicated 12 to read all those depositions. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Ms. Brooks -- 15 THE COURT: But if he said to her "I lied in 16 my deposition about" this or this, then I'll let her 17 answer that. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Okay. Did he say that? 20 A No. 21 Q You were present at the deposition taken by 22 Mr. Rosen of Bob Minton on April 8th, 2002, in the case 23 before Judge Baird, correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And in that deposition, you heard Bob Minton tell
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1410 1 at least one lie. Isn't that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And Bob Minton never came back in to that 4 deposition and recanted that lie, did he? 5 A I believe that's a matter that's being dealt with 6 between Mr. Minton and his attorney. 7 Q Mr. Minton has never filed a recantation 8 affidavit concerning the lie he told on April 8th under 9 oath before Mr. Rosen, did he. 10 A I'm not sure. 11 Q Is that because it doesn't involve the Lisa 12 McPherson case or Ken Dandar? It involves you and him? 13 A I think you'd have to check with his attorney. 14 THE COURT: You can check with Mr. Minton. 15 A Or Mr. Minton. 16 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, if we're going to 17 go a little further, can we take a short comfort 18 break? 19 THE COURT: Sure. It would be a good time. 20 Let's take a short break until 11:30 or 11:32. We'll 21 take ten minutes. And then we'll go to 12:30 or 12:25 22 so we can make that conference call. 23 (A short break was taken.) 24 THE COURT: I gather you're getting close to 25 the end, Mr. Dandar?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1411 1 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Ms. Brooks, isn't it true that, in your 6 experience in Scientology, the RPF is indeed a prison camp? 7 A It's true that I've characterized it that way, 8 but in fact that's not accurate. 9 Q Have you characterized it that way on national 10 television? 11 A Probably. 12 Q So you lied on national television? 13 A I was characterizing it in a fairly dramatic way. 14 Q Is it truthful or is it untruthful? 15 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, this is asked and 16 answered. This is about the 60 Minutes show. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q I'd like to play the 60 Minutes show to perhaps 20 refresh your memory. I have it all cued up and ready to 21 go. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead, please. 24 THE REPORTER: For point of clarification, 25 do I need to take it down?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1412 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 If you can. 3 (The videotape was played as follows:) 4 THE NARRATOR: At the time, Vaughn and Stacy 5 Young were public relations officials in the Church. 6 MS. STACY YOUNG BROOKS: At 4:00 in the 7 morning one night, Ron and I were asleep. And there 8 was a knock on the door, and two security guards were 9 there. And they took me away into the prison camp. 10 THE NARRATOR: Stacy Young says she was 11 assigned to the RPF for disobeying an order to 12 interrogate a fellow staff member. For part of the 13 time, Young says she was in a room on the seventh 14 floor of the Los Angeles Church. Her husband admits 15 he stood by and did nothing to try to get her out. 16 MR. VAUGHN YOUNG: You're being challenged 17 in that, "What are you? Are you disloyal?" You know, 18 "You love your wife more than freedom for the planet? 19 You're going to let people suffer?" And all this crap 20 is dumped on you. What are you supposed to say? 21 MS. STACY YOUNG BROOKS: I didn't see Vaughn 22 for several months. I didn't hear from him. I didn't 23 have any correspondence with him whatsoever. He did 24 nothing to try and rescue me. I felt that my husband 25 should have rescued me.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1413 1 MR. VAUGHN YOUNG: I didn't take her out. I 2 look back at that. I should have just picked her up. 3 I should have just picked her up, and I should have 4 just said, "If anybody touches me, you're dead." 5 (End of videotape.) 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Were those truthful statements by you and Vaughn 8 in that video clip? 9 A Yes. That's not 60 Minutes, though. 10 Q What is that? 11 A I'm not sure. 12 Q Dateline? 13 A I don't think that was the Dateline show. 14 Q But that was definitely you and Vaughn Young, 15 correct? 16 A Yes. 17 THE COURT: That was on some T.V. show? 18 THE WITNESS: It was on some program. I 19 don't remember which one. 20 THE COURT: Like a news type -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: -- news magazine? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 MR. DANDAR: It was 20/20, Judge. I'm 25 sorry.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1414 1 THE COURT: And, I'm sorry, the answer was 2 that those were true statements? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Let me show you a posting that we'll have marked 6 as our next exhibit. 7 MR. DANDAR: In fact, why don't you just go 8 ahead and mark all these, so I don't have to keep 9 coming up and bothering you. 10 Okay. For the record, I have an e-mail from 11 Stacy Brooks dated November 16th, 1998, that we have 12 marked as Exhibit 35 of the plaintiff. 13 And I'll hand it to the Court. 14 THE COURT: Are these originals? I mean, 15 are these the ones that you are just going to give to 16 the clerk, or is that my copy? 17 MR. DANDAR: That's for you. 18 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 19 MR. DANDAR: And a Lisa McPherson Trust 20 Internet site posting as 36. 21 THE COURT: Internet posting, did you say? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Excuse me. 24 THE COURT: Bless you. 25 MR. DANDAR: And another Internet posting is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1415 1 37. 2 Again, for the Court (handing). And what 3 I'm going to do, Judge, is I'm going to hand the 4 clerk's copy to the witness -- 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. DANDAR: -- and then get it back to the 7 clerk. 8 THE COURT: So these are the originals that 9 are being handed to the witness? 10 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to hand her all 13 three, 35, 36, and 37, in that order. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And let's look at 35, which is your 16 November 16th, 1998 -- what is this, an e-mail or a post to 17 alt.religion.scientology? 18 A It looks like a post -- 19 Q Okay. 20 A -- to the news group. 21 Q And what is this www.offlines.org that's on the 22 bottom there where we took this from? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Oh, okay. Do you recognize this as a e-mail or 25 posting that you put up on alt.religion.scientology on
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1416 1 November 16th, 1998? 2 A This is really hard to read, Mr. Dandar. 3 THE COURT: Take your time to read it. 4 If you're going to ask her questions about 5 it. 6 MR. DANDAR: I have four questions about it. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I'll read it too. 8 A Oh, boy. Yes, I'm afraid I wrote that. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q And as you previously testified, your postings 11 are truthful, aren't they? 12 A This was. 13 MR. FUGATE: Is he asking her about this 14 one? 15 THE COURT: He just said, as she's testified 16 previously, her postings were truthful. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q This morning, is this a truthful posting? 19 A You wouldn't be able to call it false. 20 Q It's false? 21 A I said you would not be able to call it false. 22 Q Okay. Now, in the first page, three paragraphs 23 up from the bottom, where it starts off, "Then D.M." -- 24 you're talking about David Miscavige, correct? 25 A Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1417 1 Q And how do you know that there are psychotic 2 people who are, quote, "hot Type IIIs in isolation watches 3 at Marshall Goldblatt's house in Topanga Canyon"? 4 A I heard that. 5 Q Were you in Scientology when you heard that? 6 A Yes, about one person. 7 Q Okay. And was that Cat Morrow? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did Cat Morrow die? 10 A No. 11 Q Is Cat Morrow still alive, as far as you know? 12 A The last time I saw her, she was. 13 Q When was that? 14 THE COURT: Is that her real name, Cat? 15 THE WITNESS: I think it's a nickname. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q How long was she in an isolation watch in this 19 person's house? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, foundation. She 21 said she heard something. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Is there some personal 24 knowledge? 25 THE COURT: Sustained.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1418 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Do you have personal knowledge of how long she 3 was out there? 4 A I don't. 5 Q Now, in the paragraph above where you're quoting 6 from David Miscavige about the Snow White Operation and the 7 FBI raid and the arrest of Mary Sue Hubbard and others in 8 Scientology, is this an actual quote of David Miscavige? 9 A No. This is a theatrical scenario that I was 10 making up. 11 Q Did you hear him say something similar to that? 12 A No. 13 Q Were you making up this theatrical scenario 14 quoting David Miscavige because you knew while you were in 15 the Guardian's Office when this happened that Miscavige did 16 know about Operation Snow White? 17 A Sorry, what? 18 Q Are you making this -- these quotes -- 19 THE COURT: You've got too many questions in 20 there. The question, I think, needs to start, "When 21 you were in the GO office, did David Miscavige know 22 about the Snow White Operation?" 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. He was the one that came 24 in and got rid of the people who had been responsible 25 for it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1419 1 THE COURT: And I think then the next 2 question would be: Is that why you were making up 3 these theatrical statements, or these statements? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I was 5 comparing that situation to the one in the Lisa 6 McPherson case. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q And are you trying to relay to the reader who 9 looks at alt.religion.scientology that David Miscavige knew 10 before the FBI raid at Snow White of the operation code 11 named Snow White? 12 A No. 13 THE COURT: Did he? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Was Mr. Moxon an unindicted co-conspirator by the 17 FBI in that case? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. What 19 does this have to do with this hearing? 20 THE COURT: Sustained. What does that -- 21 MR. DANDAR: I want to see how far -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor, could we just 23 focus on what this motion is about and not -- and not 24 the -- 25 THE COURT: I've already read one of her
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1420 1 affidavits wherein she talks about -- well, if it's -- 2 you're going to have to see if you can find the signed 3 affidavits, but where she talked about Mr. Moxon. 4 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 5 THE COURT: And I would sustain Mr. Moxon, 6 to tell you the truth, but -- I guess it is. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Is the purpose of this theatrical presentation of 9 quoting Mr. Miscavige to indicate to the readers -- 10 THE COURT: That has nothing to do with this 11 case -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 13 THE COURT: -- is what I'm suggesting. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q -- to indicate to the readers on 16 alt.religion.scientology that Mr. Miscavige knew about Lisa 17 McPherson in isolation for the 17 days that she was in 18 isolation? 19 A Well, I was certainly trying to suggest that. 20 Q And is that based upon your personal experience 21 in the guardian's office and the Office of Special Affairs 22 while you were in Scientology? 23 A No. 24 Q What's it based on? 25 A It was based on the strategy that you had for the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1421 1 legal case that I was working on with you and that we were 2 all pushing. 3 Q The truthful strategy that you had created or 4 gave declarations under oath about in other cases, correct? 5 A These were allegations that were being made. 6 They hadn't been proven. 7 Q Those allegations about David Miscavige's 8 knowledge about Lisa McPherson in isolation are based upon 9 your personal experience in Scientology? 10 A No. 11 Q Is it based upon your knowledge of the command 12 lines of Scientology? 13 THE COURT: The what lines? 14 MR. DANDAR: Command lines of Scientology. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Are you familiar with command lines? 17 MR. FUGATE: I don't understand that 18 question. Fan lines. 19 THE COURT: Command. That's what I thought 20 he said too, was fan lines. That's why I asked what 21 he said. It's command lines. 22 MR. WEINBERG: My problem with the question 23 is I'm not sure what it is that he's asking her -- 24 this is based on. Is he asking her whether the thing 25 that she did --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1422 1 THE COURT: I think he's basing it on the 2 relevance of the motion to dismiss filed by the Church 3 that there was no basis to add David Miscavige to this 4 lawsuit, and he's asking her about the command lines 5 and if that's the basis. 6 MR. WEINBERG: It's just the form of the 7 question. I mean, she had said she didn't have 8 personal knowledge, and then he said, well, this 9 strategy, was that based on something. 10 THE COURT: No. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, maybe I'm not -- 12 THE COURT: He's asking her about the 13 command lines -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay, I'm sorry. 15 THE COURT: -- to see -- whatever the 16 question was. I think it's relevant. 17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, at the current time this 18 is my only copy. But I do have my copier. I'll make 19 extra copies. But at the time I want to try to hurry 20 through this. 21 But we'll mark this as the next exhibit. 22 It's the command lines of Scientology. 23 THE COURT: I'm not sure why we're arguing 24 about this, to tell you the truth. Here's what I 25 know, I think, from what's been said -- and I think it
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1423 1 can be conceded -- is that the command lines are that 2 Mr. Miscavige is, as the Church has said, the 3 ecclesiastical head of Scientology. Mr. Miscavige is 4 the chairman or the chairman of the board or whatever 5 you call it of RTC. And it's been made clear to me 6 what RTC is. 7 The -- I don't think anybody doubts the 8 command line here. I think the real question and the 9 real issue is whether or not Mr. Miscavige knew what 10 was happening to Lisa McPherson. 11 MR. MOXON: We do, actually, object 12 strenuously to calling this a command line. An 13 ecclesiastical line doesn't mean a command line. 14 There are corporations, just like -- 15 THE COURT: Well, you can call it a command 16 line as far as I'm concerned because corporations have 17 a command line. 18 MR. MOXON: That's what I'm saying. A 19 corporation is different from ecclesiastical lines. 20 Utterly. 21 THE COURT: Well, there's no question about 22 that. It was you all who wanted me to call David 23 Miscavige the ecclesiastical leader, as opposed to the 24 chairman of the board. So we'll go ahead and make 25 that distinction.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1424 1 Now, David Miscavige is the head of RTC, 2 right? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, as far as I 4 know. 5 THE COURT: That's a corporation. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: So then he's the head of the 8 corporate structure as well as the ecclesiastical 9 head. Is that right? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, my understanding is, to 11 the degree that RTC is the most senior corporate 12 entity, that would make him senior -- the most senior 13 corporate entity. 14 THE COURT: And he's either captain or 15 commander of the Sea Org. And I've heard about what 16 the Sea Org is. This is Mr. Miscavige, correct? 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. He's -- 18 THE COURT: Which is kind of -- not a 19 corporation, but it's whatever it is as you've 20 described it as far as -- you've told us what the Sea 21 Org is. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 THE COURT: So whether it's the corporate 24 command or whether it's the ecclesiastical authority 25 or whether it's the Sea Org, it is your testimony that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1425 1 David Miscavige is the head of all of those. Is that 2 correct? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: So your objection is overruled, 5 Counselor. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q And this document 37 I'll show the witness -- 8 38 -- is the publication, the command channels of 9 Scientology, correct? 10 MR. WEINBERG: May we take a look at it? 11 MR. DANDAR: I don't have a copy for now. 12 MR. WEINBERG: What's the exhibit number? 13 MR. DANDAR: 38. 14 THE COURT: As I said, I don't know why 15 we're going through that, because I don't think 16 there's any dispute about that. If there is, I better 17 find out what it is, because I'm assuming that this is 18 all fairly well known. 19 The issue is whether or not David Miscavige 20 in the Lisa McPherson matter would have been kept 21 informed and therefore would have known, would have 22 been on top of it, would have been giving directions 23 down the line to the case supervisor or the case -- 24 whatever Mr. Kartuzinski was. 25 MR. FUGATE: That's the allegation.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1426 1 THE COURT: Well, that's the allegation, the 2 ultimate allegation. 3 But in adding him as a party, it would be 4 whether or not he had some, as Sea Org, some head, 5 some knowledge, period, whatever the knowledge. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I think the allegation was is 7 that he did order that, and that's what we've really 8 focused on as part of our motion. 9 THE COURT: Well, I understand that's the 10 motion to dismiss. But on the -- the notice of filing 11 affidavit to add parties, I haven't really had a 12 chance to study that to see whether that's the 13 allegation that he ordered her to die or whether it 14 just -- he's allowed to ask him as a party. 15 MR. WEINBERG: That was part of it. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q All right. So do you recognize that publication? 19 A Basically. 20 Q And in that publication, can you turn to the page 21 where it talks about reporting up the line? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Could we at least look at it 23 and see what she's looking at? 24 MR. DANDAR: I'm sure Mr. Moxon is well 25 acquainted --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1427 1 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, if you're going to 2 ask her questions about it -- 3 THE COURT: Yes, let them take a look at it. 4 MR. DANDAR: I said I would make a copy. I 5 had four. Now I only have one. 6 MR. MOXON: Where are the other three? 7 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. Could I ask 8 other questions while they're looking at that? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Okay. Go back to your November 16th, '98, 12 e-mail. Turn to the second page -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: Which exhibit number is that? 14 THE WITNESS: 35. 15 MR. DANDAR: 35. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q And read out loud, please, the second paragraph. 18 Starts out with "But here is what." 19 A "But here is what I have to say to you, D.M." -- 20 D.M., that's capital D, capital M -- "Jesse and I are both 21 going to testify in the McPherson trial. We did isolation 22 watches together out at INT, remember? Remember Teresa, 23 D.M.? Remember how you were overseeing her handling on a 24 daily basis, you and Ray, to make sure that she didn't 25 become PR flap?"
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1428 1 Q Now, when you talk about D.M., this is David 2 Miscavige, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And when you talk about Ray, that's Ray Mithoff, 5 M-I-T-H-O-F-F, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And who is Teresa? 8 A She was the woman that we were watching. 9 Q She's the woman that was in the shed? 10 A She was the woman we were doing an isolation 11 watch on. 12 Q Okay. And that was you and Jesse Prince, 13 correct? 14 A Yes, and others. 15 THE COURT: Is an isolation watch -- I mean, 16 I'm not real sure, but I need to make sure in my own 17 mind. But is an isolation watch part of an 18 introspection rundown? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's zero-zero. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: I think. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And Teresa, who is the subject of an isolation 24 watch that you're referring to in this posting, certainly 25 was not free to come out of this shed and leave the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1429 1 property of the Church of Scientology if she wanted to, was 2 she? 3 A I believe we testified -- 4 THE COURT: I think she did. That was asked 5 and answered, and I think she said yes, she was. I 6 don't know what she said about out of the shed, but I 7 think she said she could leave if she had wanted. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Are you going to stick by that testimony? 10 A In fact she did leave. 11 Q Because she wanted to? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Or because she was given permission to leave? 14 A Well, I wasn't there in the room, but I know that 15 she wanted to leave. 16 Q Did you and Jesse Prince have to force-feed her? 17 A I never actually did the force-feeding with 18 Jesse. But I did. 19 Q Okay. Did you force-feed her? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you have -- force water down her? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did you force water down her because you 24 noticed that she was becoming dehydrated? 25 A No. We just had a schedule when we were supposed
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1430 1 to make sure she drank and ate. 2 Q Did she spit food out? 3 A I don't recall that she did that. 4 Q Did she bark like a dog? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did she run away up a hill where the guards had 7 to go chase her? 8 A Not -- not when I was watching her. 9 Q Did Jesse tell you that? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. Read the next paragraph. 12 THE COURT: Well, I want to go back to this 13 paragraph. 14 MR. DANDAR: I do too. 15 THE COURT: Just a moment, Counselor. 16 You stated in this posting, "Remember how 17 you were -- you were," this is this D.M., David 18 Miscavige, "overseeing her handling on a daily basis, 19 you and Ray, to be sure, she didn't become a PR flap." 20 Is that accurate? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I had no knowledge 22 that they were overseeing this at all. It was -- it 23 was an innuendo I was making. 24 THE COURT: Did you believe it? I guess 25 there's a difference between thinking something and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1431 1 knowing something. Is this something that you thought 2 that you had proof of? 3 THE WITNESS: No, not really. It was 4 something -- 5 THE COURT: So it was untrue. 6 THE WITNESS: It was a theory we had. I'm 7 just saying we didn't have any reason to think -- we 8 didn't have any evidence -- I didn't have any evidence 9 when I was doing this that they were overseeing it on 10 a daily basis. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Well, you say here that they were overseeing her 13 handling on a daily basis. 14 A Well, if you read the sentence carefully, I say, 15 "Remember how you were overseeing her handling on a daily 16 basis, you and Ray, to make sure she didn't become a PR 17 flap?" I'm not saying that they were overseeing it on a 18 daily basis. I'm asking him if he remembers it. 19 Q Did you have to write reports about this 20 isolation watch? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And did you write reports every day that you were 23 there? 24 A We would have had to write a report for each -- 25 Q Shift?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1432 1 A Shift. 2 Q And when you wrote those reports for each shift, 3 who did you give them to? 4 A They were turned in to the person who was -- they 5 were turned in to a person who would then give them to the 6 CS. 7 Q Who was the CS? 8 A I don't know, actually. 9 Q And do you know if they went beyond the CS? 10 A I don't. 11 Q Do you know if they went to D.M. or Ray Mithoff? 12 A I don't. 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you say "I 14 don't"? 15 THE WITNESS: I don't. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Well, is this the first thing you ever said on a 18 posting on the Internet that you believed to be untrue? 19 A I was trying to make it clear that I wasn't 20 saying it because I believed it to be true or untrue. I 21 was saying it because it was -- it was what we were trying 22 to pursue as a legal strategy in this case. 23 Q Well, you're not going to -- it's not your 24 testimony I told you to post this on the Internet, is it? 25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1433 1 Q Okay. And this has nothing to do with Lisa 2 McPherson, this Teresa person who was on an isolation 3 watch, does it? 4 A It has to do with it to the degree that I was 5 accusing Mr. Miscavige and Mr. Mithoff of being in on the 6 Lisa McPherson handling and I was making a pretty obvious 7 comparison to this particular situation and the one that 8 involved Lisa. 9 Q How would Teresa become a PR flap, a public 10 relations flap, on the isolation watch? 11 A Well, if she went out and started talking about 12 being a Scientologist. 13 Q So if a Scientologist goes out into the public 14 and talks about being a Scientologist, that is a public 15 relations flap? 16 A No, when she's barking like a dog and stuff like 17 that. 18 THE COURT: You mean if she went out and 19 talked about the introspection rundown, what happened 20 there? 21 THE WITNESS: No. What I meant -- if she 22 went out in that sort of shape and it was known that 23 she was a Scientologist. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Why is she kept in a wooden shed rather than in a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1434 1 nice, comfortable, air-conditioned hotel room? 2 A Okay. First of all, she wasn't kept in a wooden 3 shed. She -- that was one of the places where she would 4 take naps. I don't believe that she was -- as a matter of 5 fact, I think she was later living in a house. 6 Q While you and Jesse Prince were involved in the 7 isolation watch of Teresa in the desert in California, 8 isn't it true that she spent 24 hours a day in this wooden 9 shed? 10 A Well, not when I was -- that's not true when I 11 was watching her. 12 Q Okay. Where was she at when you were watching 13 her? 14 A There was a shed where she was staying for at 15 least a few days, but I mean, she was coming and going. We 16 were going outside, you know. She wasn't kept inside the 17 shed. 18 But then I believe she was moved to a house. 19 Q Where? 20 A Out in Happy Valley. 21 Q That's another Scientology property? 22 A Yes. 23 Q That's a compound, fenced in? 24 A No. 25 Q Not fenced in?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1435 1 A (Shook head negatively.) It wasn't then. 2 Q What was the purpose of her staying out in the 3 shed? The unair-conditioned shed. 4 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. If she 5 doesn't have personal knowledge of that, I object. 6 There's no foundation. 7 THE COURT: She said she was there for three 8 days. 9 MR. FUGATE: He said what was the purpose of 10 her being there, and I'm asking for her personal 11 knowledge. 12 THE COURT: All right. Well, she was part 13 of the watch. I would think she might know. 14 MR. FUGATE: I understood her to say she 15 watched her in a house, but I won't interfere, Judge. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Why was she in a shed, an unair-conditioned shed, 18 in the desert for three days? 19 A She was being isolated, and that was a place 20 where nobody else was, as far as I understood why. 21 Q Is that because she was making a lot of noise? 22 A No. I don't think that's why. 23 Q Now, the next paragraph down talks about 24 Scientology's investigators Peter Franks and David Lee and 25 other PIs going after Bob Minton's friend Jeff Schmitt in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1436 1 England. Do you see that? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you have personal knowledge of that, that that 4 was happening, they were turning his records over to Inland 5 Revenue Service in England to get him in trouble for not 6 paying taxes? 7 A First of all, it doesn't say Jeff Schmitt, 8 actually, but I think that's who I was referring to. We 9 had reason to believe that that's what they were trying to 10 do. 11 Q And that's because that's what Jeff Schmitt told 12 Bob Minton on the phone, correct? 13 A Jeff Schmitt told him that he was having trouble 14 with the Inland Revenue Service, and as I recall, it was 15 our feeling that that was because of the Scientology 16 private investigators. 17 Q And even back in '98, they were trying to get 18 Jesse Prince arrested? The Church of Scientology was 19 trying to get Jesse Prince arrested? 20 A I'm not sure what I was talking about there. 21 Q Well, that's what you say though, correct -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- to get Jesse arrested? 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right. Read out loud the last -- or, the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1437 1 next paragraph, which is the last that I'm going to ask you 2 about. 3 A "But the fact remains"? 4 Q Yes. 5 A "But the fact remains that you are the managing 6 agency for the Church of Scientology Flag Service 7 Organization, and you are the one responsible for Lisa's 8 death -- you. I'll be testifying about you, D.M., and so 9 will Jesse." 10 Q Now, when you posted that, Ms. Brooks, was that a 11 true statement? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Which one? 13 MR. DANDAR: What she just read. 14 THE COURT: The one she just read. 15 MR. WEINBERG: The whole thing. 16 THE COURT: The one she just read. 17 A I don't know. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q So you were going to testify about something that 20 you didn't know. Is that what you're saying? 21 A That's not what it says, Mr. Dandar. 22 Q No. My question to you was this paragraph that 23 you just read out loud, is that paragraph, at the time you 24 made it, a truthful statement? 25 A At the time I made it, it was a statement that I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1438 1 felt that I could make. 2 Q And at that time, based upon your expert -- 3 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. You felt 4 you could make because you thought it was true? 5 THE WITNESS: I didn't think it was false, 6 your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Let's go to the next 9 exhibit, which is Exhibit No. 36. 10 And, Judge, do you have a copy of that? 11 THE COURT: Yes, you did give me a copy, I 12 believe. 13 MR. DANDAR: Looks like this. 14 THE COURT: Yes, I have it. 15 MR. DANDAR: And do you have a copy, 16 Mr. Weinberg? 17 MR. WEINBERG: I believe they do. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Ms. Brooks, do you recognize this? 20 A I think it's a page from a newsletter that was 21 published from the Lisa McPherson Trust. 22 Q Okay. And were you the editor of that 23 newsletter? 24 A No. 25 Q Who was?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1439 1 A Karen Case. 2 Q Does she still work for you? 3 A Now? 4 Q Yes. 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. In this newsletter, next to this picture 7 of a building of some kind -- is that supposed to be a 8 picture of something? 9 A I don't really know. 10 Q All right. 11 THE COURT: Doesn't it look like that 12 picture I just saw on the screen? 13 MR. DANDAR: It could be. 14 THE WITNESS: Oh. 15 MR. DANDAR: I didn't want to put words in 16 her mouth. 17 THE WITNESS: It could be, supposed to be or 18 could be a picture of the complex. 19 THE COURT: That's what I thought it was. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Of the Church of Scientology in California? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. She is quoting you. Is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q On June 14th, 2000, where did that quote come
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1440 1 from? 2 A I think I made it up to fit that space. 3 Q Read it out loud, please. 4 A "I don't think there is any question that 5 Scientology brought pressure to bear on medical examiner 6 Joan Wood to change the autopsy report concerning the cause 7 of Lisa McPherson's death. It is a tragedy of justice that 8 the criminal case has been dismissed, but it doesn't change 9 the fact that Lisa McPherson died a horrible, gruesome 10 death while being held at the Fort Harrison Hotel. If 11 Scientology had taken her to a hospital where she could get 12 proper medical care, Lisa would be alive today. The Lisa 13 McPherson Trust continues to get calls every single day 14 from people who have been victimized by Scientology, and we 15 will go on helping these people in every way we possibly 16 can." 17 Q Now, when you made that statement on June 14th, 18 2000, you firmly believed that that statement was true. Is 19 that right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you believe that's true today? 22 A I'm not so sure anymore. 23 Q That's after you've met so many times with 24 Mr. Rinder, Yingling, and Rosen. You now are not sure 25 about your statement?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1441 1 A No, Mr. Dandar. It's after quite a bit of 2 experience with this particular litigation and finding out 3 that it's not as noble of a cause as a lot of people think. 4 Q Ms. Brooks, isn't it true that since the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust was formed in 1999 until it was dissolved 6 in the year 2001, you repeatedly told people at the Lisa 7 McPherson Trust that Lisa McPherson was intentionally left 8 to die in her isolation watch? 9 A I don't recall. 10 Q Turn to Exhibit 37. What is this? 11 A This looks like -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Before we leave that, my copy 13 of the last 36 has April 22nd, 1998, on it. Is 14 that -- that can't be correct. 15 THE COURT: Where? I'm sorry, Mr. Fugate. 16 Where are you looking at? 17 MR. FUGATE: The bottom of -- says 18 April 22nd, 1998. 19 MR. DANDAR: That's from another document. 20 That doesn't go with what we're about to look at. 21 Let me ask the witness that. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q The handwriting at the bottom of Exhibit 37, that 24 doesn't go with the printed page, does it? See this? 25 A Oh. Well, what else does it go with then?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1442 1 THE COURT: I don't know what it says. I 2 can't read it. 3 MR. FUGATE: Mine just says April 22nd, 4 1998. 5 THE COURT: Oh, April, okay. 6 MR. FUGATE: And I didn't know if we dated 7 this or what. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q That's not a correct date for this particular 10 print, is it. 11 A It wouldn't be. 12 Q Right. So this comes from the Web site, correct? 13 A I don't know where you got it. 14 Q Do you recognize it? 15 A Well, I recognize that it's part of a page from 16 our newsletter. 17 Q Okay. All right. And are the -- the bios of 18 you, Jesse, Karen Case, Mark Bunker accurate? 19 A Well, let me read what it says. 20 As far as I know. 21 Q Okay. That's all my questions for that. Now -- 22 THE WITNESS: We're done with this? 23 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Let me give it back to 24 the clerk before I forget it. 25 So I'm handing back to the clerk 35, 36, and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1443 1 37. 2 THE COURT: I have something up here. Is 3 this just a duplicate of -- yes, that's just a 4 duplicate. Okay. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Have you ever heard Bob Minton in the years that 7 you've known him talk about his concern with tax evasion? 8 A I don't believe so. 9 Q Did you ever witness Bob Minton in one of these 10 statements of emotional breakdown -- I don't know what the 11 right word is -- but expressing to others about his 12 concerns about tax evasion? 13 A Not that I recall. 14 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, what happens if the Court, this 15 Court right here, doesn't dismiss the wrongful death case? 16 What happens to your negotiations with the Church of 17 Scientology? 18 A Well, I've set the record straight about my 19 testimony. 20 Q What do you expect them to do? 21 A I would assume that we'll continue. 22 Q Continue what? 23 A With settlement talks. 24 THE COURT: In other words, I gather from 25 your testimony, the settlement talks are on hold until
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1444 1 this "setting the record straight" is over. Is 2 that -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, that's my 4 understanding. 5 THE COURT: I think that's what you 6 testified to. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q So if your testimony and Mr. Minton's succeed in 10 getting the case dismissed or Ken Dandar disqualified, it's 11 your testimony today that you still get to settle with -- 12 enter settlement negotiations with the Church of 13 Scientology? 14 A I would assume so. 15 Q Were you told that? 16 A I think I told you what I was told, that we could 17 just set the record straight. 18 Q So it's just an assumption on your part that, as 19 long as you came and testified, you fulfilled your part of 20 the bargain and now you can settle with Scientology? 21 A As a matter of fact, there wasn't any talk about 22 testifying. 23 Q You thought that you would be able to do all this 24 just with an affidavit? 25 A I didn't know what would be required. I'm just
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1445 1 saying that it wasn't ever specified. 2 THE COURT: In any event, the settlement 3 discussions are on hold until you, quote, "set the 4 record straight." After that, you expect to go back 5 to settlement negotiations. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: If they pull out -- you don't 8 know whether they will or they won't. You expect to 9 go back to the table and discuss settlement. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: And you expect that they will 12 too. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. And in any case, if they 14 do pull out, at least I will have taken myself out of 15 legal harm's way. 16 THE COURT: Right. But your belief is that 17 if you set the record straight that you can then sit 18 down with whomever and discuss settling everything -- 19 THE WITNESS: Whatever else. 20 THE COURT: -- and discussing it. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 22 MR. DANDAR: That's all the questions I 23 have. Move into evidence Exhibits 33 through 38. 24 THE COURT: I don't know what -- I know what 25 35, 36, and 37 are. I don't know what -- one of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1446 1 them -- 34 is not in evidence because it never could 2 be authenticated. So the others I believe have been 3 authenticated. So but for 34 -- 4 MR. FUGATE: And 38. 5 MR. McGOWAN: 38, I think. 6 MR. FUGATE: There weren't any questions. 7 THE COURT: What is it? 8 MR. FUGATE: That's the command channels. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 38 is not in evidence. 10 MR. DANDAR: I forgot to ask questions about 11 it, I'm sorry. Let me just ask a few questions then. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Too late. 13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, do you have the command 14 channels? 15 MR. MOXON: He's rested, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: I'm going to let him ask these 17 two questions, and that will deter recross. 18 MR. DANDAR: Who has 38? 19 THE COURT: Oh, that's right, it was because 20 you all asked to look at it and we deferred it. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Do you recognize -- have you seen the copy or the 23 original of that document in your years of Scientology? 24 A Well, I haven't had a chance to read the whole 25 thing, but I'm assuming it's a copy of the same thing I've
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1447 1 seen. 2 Q All right. Turn to page 48, please. 3 MR. MOXON: The copy that he gave us did not 4 have 48 pages. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm not seeing a 6 page 48. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Okay. 9 A Why don't you just show me which page you want. 10 Q All right. Well, I won't be able to ask you that 11 question then. 12 THE COURT: Just keep it, look through it, 13 and then when they're done, I expect they might have a 14 few questions on redirect. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Do you recall seeing a newsletter -- 17 THE COURT: I think you'll have some time to 18 look at it. 19 MR. DANDAR: I will. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Do you recall seeing a newsletter by RTC that if 22 someone is a Type III psychotic person that person needs to 23 be reported down the lines through RTC? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I think that's 25 been asked and answered, but also that exceeds the two
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1448 1 questions. 2 THE COURT: That's true. Save it. 3 You know what? It's a quarter after, and I 4 don't think you're going to be able to complete your 5 redirect in 10 minutes, are you, Counselor? 6 MR. FUGATE: You know me well. No, I 7 cannot, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Even -- even I will say you 9 might have some need to do some redirect. So can we 10 stop now for lunch? 11 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 12 THE COURT: Let's do that. Let's go from 13 12:15 to 1:30, and that'll give me a chance to make my 14 call, get on my conference call, eat. And we'll see 15 you back at 1:30, and we'll start at that time. 16 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court stands in 17 recess until 1:30 by the courtroom clock. 18 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dandar, if you find 19 whatever it is you want, you know, in that document, 20 I'll let you ask your question after lunch. 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. Thank you. 22 THE COURT: If not, as I said, you'll have 23 time to find it. 24 (A luncheon recess was taken.) 25 ____________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1449 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 16th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25