Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
1450
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 11
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
DATE: May 16, 2002. Afternoon Session.
17
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
18 St. Petersburg, Florida.
19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
20
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
21 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
22
23
24
25
1451
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
12 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
15 Organization.
16
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
18 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
19 Organization.
20
21 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
22 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
23 Organization.
24
25
1452
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
3 MR. BRUCE HOWIE
5720 Central Avenue
4 St. Petersburg, Florida.
Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
7 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
8 Attorney for Stacy Brooks.
9
10 ALSO PRESENT:
11 Ms. Donna West
Mr. Rick Spector
12 Ms. Lara Cartwright
Ms. Sarah Heller
13 Mr. Ben Shaw
Mr. Brian Asay
14 Ms. Patricia Greenway
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1453
1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I had just two more
2 exhibits to identify, then I'll be done.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Ms. Brooks, I handed you Plaintiff's Exhibit 39.
6 MR. DANDAR: And, Judge, I handed up to you 39
7 and 40, which I'm going to hand her.
8 THE COURT: Okay. These are my copies?
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Can you identify 39?
12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, 39, is that what appears to
13 be a magazine article?
14 MR. DANDAR: No.
15 MR. FUGATE: Oh.
16 MR. DANDAR: E-Mail.
17 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. I'll reserve.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Is that your E-Mail? Or is that a posting?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Which one is it? A posting?
22 A A posting.
23 Q Is that posted by you to alt.religion.Scientology?
24 A Yes.
25 Q The date of this is August 10 of '98?
1454
1 A Yes.
2 Q And at that time, Jesse Prince, when you talk
3 about Jesse Prince in this posting, you are talking about
4 him coming to work for FACTNet. Is that correct?
5 A Well, was actually coming to work for Bob Minton.
6 Q Was that at FACTNet?
7 A Well, that was one of the things he did. He also
8 did other work.
9 Q What other work?
10 A Mmm, he went out and did some work with
11 Mr. Leipold.
12 Q Okay. Could you turn to Page 1 and read out loud
13 the last paragraph which starts with, "It is obvious --"
14 A "It is obvious to me that this latest vicious
15 attack is because of Jesse Prince. I have known Jesse since
16 1976. He and I were good friends when we were in the Sea
17 Org and he was also a good friend of Vaughn's. Jesse and I
18 were friends because he never lost his sense of humanity,
19 even in his darkest hours as a senior executive in RTC. He
20 never crossed that final threshold like people like Marty
21 Rathbun had done. He never totally sold out to Miscavige.
22 He never became a Nazi. He paid dearly for refusing to
23 kowtow to DM, as did Vaughn and I. They broke him badly and
24 for five years after he finally escaped, Jesse was virtually
25 in hiding."
1455
1 Q Like your other postings to
2 alt.religion.Scientology, is that a truthful statement?
3 A As I said earlier, yes. It wasn't false.
4 Q And the bottom of Page 2, could you read the last
5 sentence which starts with, "But Jesse --"
6 A "But Jesse felt strongly that he has a
7 responsibility --"
8 THE COURT: Wait, I can't find where you are
9 reading. "But --"
10 MR. DANDAR: Right here at the bottom of
11 Page 2.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Go ahead.
15 A "But Jesse felt strongly that he has a
16 responsibility to tell the world what he knows. And he
17 wasn't frightened by Scientology's intimidation and
18 harassment tactics."
19 Q I'm sorry. Read the next sentence.
20 A "He and I teamed up that weekend in Columbus and
21 he has been working with Bob, Lawrence, Vaughn and I ever
22 since."
23 Q Turn to Page 3 and read the middle paragraph which
24 starts out by saying, "What I will say."
25 A "What I will say, though, is I have never seen
1456
1 Scientology as frightened as they have been in the past
2 several weeks since they discovered that Jesse Prince, Bob
3 Minton, Lawrence Wollersheim and Vaughn Young --" oh, and I
4 "-- all joined forces to expose them. There are a few other
5 key former members about to join us. And I can assure you,
6 when they do, Scientology's attacks on all of us will become
7 more vicious than ever."
8 Q Thank you. Turn to Exhibit 40.
9 A Uh-huh?
10 MR. FUGATE: My objection, if I may, on Exhibit
11 40 is, A, I can't read it. The print is too small.
12 B, I don't see a date on it, so I don't know that I
13 could make much more of an objection than that.
14 THE COURT: As far as your not being able to
15 read it, I can, so you'll have to get some better
16 glasses. As far as not having a date on it --
17 MR. FUGATE: Oh, you have a different version
18 than I do. I see why. Mine is a reduced version.
19 THE WITNESS: Mine is, too. That is much
20 better. I can't read mine, either.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Well, this one -- is this --
22 MR. DANDAR: That is for you, Judge. But if
23 you want the witness to look at that, and we can
24 make copies like that again.
25 THE COURT: Let me look and see if I see a
1457
1 date.
2 MR. DANDAR: I have the original. And the
3 original says, "1997 RTC copyright."
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: You bet.
6 MR. DANDAR: Would you like to look at the
7 original while she's looking at that?
8 THE COURT: Sure.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Do you recognize this as an official publication
11 of RTC?
12 A Well, it looks like -- it looks like one.
13 Q Would you like to look at the original? Would
14 that help you better?
15 A That looks more like one.
16 Q Okay. I'll hand this back to the judge then.
17 A Yes.
18 Q How often -- when you were in Scientology, how
19 often did RTC put out a newsletter?
20 A I never saw one.
21 Q All right. On the back of that, at the top, and
22 if you go to the top middle column and start reading the
23 last paragraph and continue on to the third column, read
24 that out loud.
25 MR. FUGATE: What page? Could I just see --
1458
1 may I approach the witness? Because here is what my
2 problem is, just so you don't think I'm fooling with
3 the Court.
4 THE COURT: No, I didn't think you were
5 fooling.
6 MR. FUGATE: I can't see --
7 MR. DANDAR: I'll get you a better copy.
8 THE COURT: I actually can read that, too, so
9 maybe you just need to go to the eye doctor.
10 MR. FUGATE: All right.
11 THE COURT: Notice I have glasses. And you
12 don't. Yet.
13 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. I'm getting
14 old.
15 THE COURT: That's it.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Go ahead.
18 A "Read through the list and become familiar with
19 the different matters of concern so you can easily recognize
20 them. Keep the list on hand for future reference. You must
21 inform RTC if you encounter any such situations, regardless
22 of any other action taken. If you wish to report a
23 situation and are not sure whether RTC should be informed,
24 write the report to your ethics section and send a copy to
25 RTC. You may also write the RTC reports officer and request
1459
1 a copy of the knowledge reports policy letter."
2 Q Now, in the far right-hand column of the
3 situations entitled -- under ethics, does there appear to be
4 a listing for PTS Type III?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Does that mean PTS Type III people need to be
7 reported to RTC?
8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would object to this
9 as being outside of her knowledge. This is a '97
10 publication.
11 THE COURT: That is true. I think the article
12 speaks for itself. If she has no more knowledge
13 than what it says, she can be asked there.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Okay. Do you have more knowledge than what it
16 says there?
17 A No.
18 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'll keep the original,
19 unless you want it.
20 THE WITNESS: You can take that one.
21 MR. DANDAR: And the copy that Mr. Fugate
22 couldn't read is marked as an exhibit.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. DANDAR: And I have no other questions.
25 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fugate.
1460
1 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, could I ask one
3 question. D/inspector, is that deputy inspector?
4 THE WITNESS: Deputy.
5 THE COURT: General office?
6 THE WITNESS: Deputy inspector, general office.
7 Yes.
8 Excuse me, but do you need this?
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Thank you. And the witness
10 just handed me the clerk's Exhibit 39. I'm handing
11 it to the clerk.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed?
14 THE COURT: You may, indeed.
15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Good afternoon, it seems like a long time ago
18 since I was here.
19 A Good to see you again.
20 Q I'm going to try to shorten this up as much as I
21 can and I'm going to try to ask a couple of housekeeping
22 matters and I'm try to keep track of things.
23 MR. FUGATE: Sometimes, Judge, I'll just have
24 to try to dig out an exhibit. I was trying to do
25 that over lunch and they are a little confused.
1461
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Is it your testimony, Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Howie
3 is the person that started the settlement process that leads
4 us to where we are, at least, today?
5 A Yes, it is.
6 Q And the meetings that took place in New York on
7 the 28th and 29th that we've heard about in March, who
8 initiated the calls that set those into motion? Do you
9 recall?
10 A Mr. Minton, I think.
11 Q Mr. Minton?
12 A I think so.
13 Q Now, one of the demands or the requests that you
14 made that -- that you and Mr. Minton made at the meetings,
15 correct me if I'm wrong, was that you wanted to -- I'm
16 saying you collectively, both of you.
17 MR. FUGATE: Judge, if there is a problem,
18 you'll correct me, I guess.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q But that you wanted to continue or stop the
21 contempt proceedings that were scheduled in front of Judge
22 Baird and Judge Schaeffer. Is that one of the requests or
23 demands that were made?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And that demand -- how was that demand met?
1462
1 A Rudely, I thought.
2 Q And what was the response?
3 A Well, the response was from Mr. Rosen. And he
4 said, "Absolutely not. We will not stop any of our ongoing
5 proceedings."
6 Q And so essentially when you left those meetings,
7 and I don't want to go back through it and rehash those,
8 believe me, but when you left those meetings, there was no
9 deal, no settlement, no nothing, and the proceedings that
10 were scheduled in Pinellas County were still scheduled to go
11 forward. Is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And then we've heard about the -- the contempt
14 proceeding in front of Judge Schaeffer on April 5. My
15 question to you would be the next day, if I listened to the
16 testimony correctly, that you met with Mr. Rinder and
17 Ms. Yingling, was on April 6. Is that correct?
18 A Yes. On that Saturday.
19 Q And there were a series of questions about that as
20 to did you have counsel, was counsel present, et cetera.
21 And I'm going to ask you to take a look at a letter --
22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would like to give that
23 to you.
24 THE COURT: Is this the defendant's next in
25 number?
1463
1 MR. FUGATE: Yes, it will be.
2 THE COURT: And Madam Clerk, do you know what
3 that is?
4 THE CLERK: 75.
5 THE COURT: 75?
6 THE CLERK: Yes.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q I ask you to take a look at what I handed up to
9 you as Defendant's Exhibit 75 and ask you if you have seen
10 that, can you identify it and does it refresh your
11 recollection as to how the meeting on April 6 took place?
12 THE COURT: I thought she was talking
13 previously about the meeting in New York.
14 THE WITNESS: That was a different letter, your
15 Honor.
16 MR. FUGATE: That was, I think, Mr. Jonas. I
17 didn't want to go back through all of that.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. FUGATE: There was a question, Mr. Lirot
20 asked a couple questions, about where was counsel,
21 et cetera. And I just wanted to ask you --
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q First of, all have you seen that letter before?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And is that letter accurate as far as you recall
1464
1 in how the meetings took place, how they went forward
2 without Mr. Howie there?
3 A Yes. And I believe I may have misspoken earlier.
4 I don't remember if I said it was a letter from Mr. Howie,
5 but -- but I do recall now that this is the letter that I
6 saw during the contempt proceeding before Judge Schaeffer on
7 April 5, I believe.
8 Q And so does it refresh your memory then that the
9 two of you went forward without counsel but with --
10 THE COURT: I am sorry, but I don't remember
11 seeing this letter before as far as at any contempt
12 proceeding of mine. Maybe it was, but I don't
13 remember it.
14 MR. FUGATE: It was not.
15 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
16 MR. FUGATE: It was not presented as part of
17 the contempt proceedings. It was a letter she was
18 shown.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Is that right?
21 A Yes, earlier I testified I saw a letter that --
22 that -- I think I testified that Mr. Howie had written a
23 letter saying it was acceptable to him for Mr. Minton to
24 meet without counsel. And I see -- see, now, and remember
25 now, that it was to him, not from him.
1465
1 Q And to get on to housekeeping matters, there were
2 also -- I think you have seen those letters and I think that
3 one of them is in the document production from Mr. McGowan,
4 and the others in the document production, which this letter
5 is also, from Mr. Howie, that the documents that were
6 delivered to you and to Mr. Minton by me were delivered with
7 a letter to each of your counsel on the 15th. Is that
8 correct?
9 A The April 15th letter --
10 Q Yes.
11 A -- that we were talking about.
12 MR. FUGATE: That is part of the record, Judge,
13 just for housekeeping purposes.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Now, you have testified, as I heard your
16 testimony, that you have written a lot of negative things
17 about the Church over -- in the earlier affidavits, and I
18 won't go through them at this point. And that at the time
19 you wrote those, you believed what you wrote to be true.
20 Is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, that was a time when you were, as you said, I
23 think, a member of the critic community?
24 A Well, actually, before I became a member of the
25 critic community, I began to have a job as a consultant to
1466
1 litigators.
2 Q And as a consultant, you were paid to write
3 affidavits. Is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you also wrote affidavits and suggested facts
6 or suggested beliefs without basis in fact. Is that
7 correct?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q Now, you testified in response to some questions
10 that Mr. Dandar had told you that he believed that Judge
11 Schaeffer, Judge Quesada and whoever else were corrupt, that
12 they had been bribed, and something of that nature. Is that
13 correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You did testify to that?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q Is that another example of a belief that was not
18 based in fact, as you now know it?
19 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I think we are getting --
20 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think we are getting into
21 heavy leading questions on redirect.
22 THE COURT: I like that so I'll go ahead and
23 allow it.
24 A Mmm, on Mr. Dandar's part, you mean?
25
1467
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Yes.
3 A Yes, I believe -- I believe so.
4 THE COURT: I think what he's saying is you
5 have no factual basis to know that either Judge
6 Quesada, I or any other judge was being bribed.
7 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q But it didn't stop you from expressing the belief
10 at that time that you were told that, is that correct?
11 A Bribed and blackmailed. Yes.
12 Q And, again, it is not based on any facts, as you
13 sit here today. Is it?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q Now, in the time that you were a paid witness, a
16 paid affiant and a critic, if I could focus you on that
17 time, there were a lot of things that you wrote and I think
18 you have deemed it as fabricated scenarios or I think you
19 also said creative writing, that were more innuendo than
20 fact. Is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, if you look at --
23 MR. FUGATE: And I think, Judge, it is in
24 evidence as Plaintiff's Exhibit -- and I thought I
25 wrote it down here, but it is the 13 March of 1997
1468
1 Seattle affidavit that was submitted in this case by
2 Ms. Brooks.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q Do you know what I'm talking about there?
5 THE COURT: That is the one that is in
6 evidence?
7 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Do you recall that? Let me --
11 A Mmm --
12 Q Let me --
13 MR. FUGATE: Do you need a copy of it?
14 THE COURT: Is it the one dated December 14 of
15 '94?
16 MR. FUGATE: I think this is dated, your
17 Honor -- I can't get to the back of it. It is
18 dated -- I'll hand it up to you.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I think this is one of the ones
20 attached to the motions --
21 THE COURT: I'm looking at the wrong one.
22 MR. FUGATE: 13 March of '97. I have it tabbed
23 just for convenience sake.
24 THE COURT: Oh, okay. This is the one attached
25 as part of --
1469
1 MR. WEINBERG: The affidavit, I'm not sure.
2 THE COURT: I think it is.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q If you flip over to Page 27 and 28 -- Page 9,
5 Paragraphs 27 and 28 that Mr. Dandar had you read from
6 earlier today, do you see the statement, "I am familiar with
7 the day-to-day activities of the highest level of management
8 of Scientology"?
9 A Yes.
10 Q "I have firsthand knowledge of the establishment
11 of the corporate structure of Scientology as it now exists."
12 A Yes.
13 Q You see that statement?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q And is that based on facts? Or is that based on
16 creative writing?
17 A Mmm, that was based on a little bit of fact which
18 I expanded to seem to be a broad range of knowledge.
19 Q Well, do you recall when -- let me get to it
20 here -- you didn't work in any of those corporate
21 organizations that you're making reference to, did you?
22 A Well, I did work in ASI for about six months.
23 Q But not in RTC or any of the other corporate
24 organizations --
25 A No.
1470
1 Q -- that you are writing about. Correct?
2 A Correct.
3 THE COURT: OSA, is that one? Or is that a
4 high level?
5 MR. FUGATE: No, it would be RTC, CSI or Flag.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q And I don't think you had anything to do with any
8 of those corporate entities, did you?
9 A I didn't work in any of them.
10 Q Okay. But you indicated in this affidavit you had
11 first-hand knowledge of how they were created and how they
12 worked. Correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And that was not accurate. Was it?
15 A Mmm, I think I intended to create an impression
16 that I had a lot more firsthand knowledge than I really did.
17 Q Do you recall your deposition --
18 THE COURT: Well, you can understand, ma'am,
19 how someone might say that is a lie. It says: "I
20 have firsthand knowledge of the corporate structure
21 of Scientology and how it exists, having worked with
22 the staff who are responsible for creating it." You
23 either do or you don't. If you don't, it's a lie.
24 THE WITNESS: Well, I did have some, your
25 Honor, as I testified earlier, I did deal with some
1471
1 of the staff who actually carried out the
2 restructuring. And they told me some things
3 about -- about it.
4 THE COURT: Okay. I think we have to be real
5 careful here because, I mean, she may want to say
6 this is creative writing. But the prosecutor may
7 wish to say that is a false statement. That she's
8 now testifying about, and it is -- in other words, I
9 don't know about creative writing and affidavits. I
10 know about true statements and I know about false
11 statements. Creative writing, I don't know we've
12 ever had that before. So --
13 MR. FUGATE: I'm just asking --
14 THE COURT: I know. I understand.
15 MR. FUGATE: -- the questions, Judge. Frankly,
16 I'm asking the questions to go to --
17 THE COURT: Well, before she said, "I can't say
18 that it is false."
19 MR. FUGATE: I think she also said, "I really
20 didn't have any personal knowledge of how the
21 restructuring, the reorganization went, et cetera."
22 All I'm trying to do is eliminate that for
23 whatever --
24 THE COURT: Let me tell you what that says to
25 me. When somebody says "I can't say it is false,"
1472
1 then it's true. And if it's not true, then it's
2 false. And if it's something in between, then I
3 need to know what to call it.
4 And if this witness wants to tell me that what
5 she's calling it is creative writing, then I really
6 need to know that, because I assumed when her answer
7 is "I can't say it is false," then basically she was
8 saying it was true.
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't believe I
10 used the term "Creative writing."
11 THE COURT: I don't either, but he's using it
12 and I want you to be careful, because creative
13 writing, I don't know what that is in an affidavit.
14 I don't think we allow it.
15 THE WITNESS: Right. And I don't think I
16 engaged in it.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q When you say, "I am familiar with the day-to-day
19 activities of the highest level of management of
20 Scientology," is that true, or is that false?
21 A It is true. And I can explain.
22 Q Well, explain.
23 A I spent six months working with some of the top
24 executives in Scientology. And because I did that, I was
25 familiar with some of their day-to-day activities.
1473
1 Q Some of the day-to-day activities?
2 A Yes.
3 Q But you were not involved, is it not correct, you
4 were not involved in the restructuring, corporate
5 restructuring, that you talked about in this court?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q But you filed affidavits -- affidavits implying or
8 I think you said, by innuendo, that you were. Correct?
9 A Well, I think you could have gotten that
10 impression.
11 Q And I guess for the judge's perspective is where
12 does that fall within firsthand knowledge, my personal
13 belief, is it -- is it innuendo? Or is it based on fact?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I'm not trying
15 to skirt this issue. But, Mmm, I did feel that I
16 had firsthand knowledge. I wasn't very well
17 educated at all on, you know, how much firsthand
18 knowledge you are required to have in order to say
19 you have firsthand knowledge in the legal sense. I
20 felt that I did have some firsthand knowledge. And
21 that I could legitimately make speculations as an
22 expert based on the experience that I had had.
23 THE COURT: And I don't disagree that you can
24 do that. You cannot put something in an
25 affidavit -- let me make this clear to you in case
1474
1 this ever happens in your future.
2 You cannot put something in an affidavit or in
3 a declaration that is false.
4 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: And, therefore, I am assuming that
6 what you are testifying to, if you do not tell me to
7 the contrary, it is your declarations and your
8 affidavits, except for what you have told me is
9 false, if they are part of an affidavit in this case
10 or whatever else you might have told me about, is
11 true.
12 Now, if it's maybe exaggerated --
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: -- and it's not maybe as in-depth
15 as it might have said, that may be a license as
16 permissible, even though I would certainly caution
17 you if I were your lawyer to caution you about that.
18 THE WITNESS: I won't do it any longer, your
19 Honor.
20 THE COURT: But I don't know of any model
21 ground. You know, an affidavit is supposed to be
22 true. And if you don't tell me that it's false, I
23 am going to assume that in the sense I think of it,
24 because that is all I know to think, it is true.
25 And except I think you suggested that you may
1475
1 have -- I don't know, you used some words that I was
2 okay with, you might have slanted it.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 THE COURT: I mean, I think affidavits that are
5 written by experts or testimony by experts sometimes
6 is slanted. But I don't think that they are
7 intentionally false.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: And there is a difference. I think
10 slanting testimony is something, slanting an
11 affidavit, happens. That is not that we are crazy
12 about it, but it happens.
13 But false, it's just not permissible. So
14 again, Mr. Fugate, when she leaves this stand, if
15 she has not told me something is false, in my mind,
16 it will be true or it -- it will be true, but it may
17 be slanted toward the side that she was submitting
18 it for.
19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I don't want to tinker with
20 that observation, either.
21 THE COURT: I just want to let you all know
22 where I'm coming from when I'm going to analyze this
23 at the end of the day, that I don't know about
24 what -- was that other term we were using?
25 MR. FUGATE: Well, there was fabricated
1476
1 scenario was one. I think she made a comment --
2 THE WITNESS: Embellish.
3 MR. FUGATE: Embellish.
4 THE WITNESS: Exaggerate.
5 THE COURT: There was one I said I didn't know
6 about.
7 MR. DANDAR: Creative.
8 THE COURT: Creative writing.
9 THE WITNESS: I didn't use that term.
10 THE COURT: Creative writing, to me, is when I
11 sit down and write -- I don't have to write anything
12 that is true or even close to being true. I can be
13 creative and I can just have a good time.
14 MR. FUGATE: Well, my note, and you can correct
15 me if I'm wrong, I think I heard you -- and I can't
16 remember if it was Tuesday or Monday -- say that you
17 told the Court, "It was my job to create the worst
18 impression of the Church of Scientology as I could
19 by my affidavits."
20 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: And that is what you meant when you
22 meant slanted?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: But you are not telling me, I don't
25 think, that your affidavits or your declarations
1477
1 were false except what you have already identified
2 as false.
3 THE WITNESS: Correct, your Honor. For
4 example, when I say, "I am familiar with the
5 day-to-day activities of the highest level of
6 management of Scientology," I did have a time when I
7 was familiar with that.
8 THE COURT: And that is "because of my
9 experience in ASI"?
10 THE WITNESS: Right.
11 THE COURT: I were to assume, if I looked at
12 that very carefully when you were in ASI, during
13 that period of time, whatever it was, you may have
14 been familiar, because you say you were familiar
15 with the day-to-day activities at the highest level
16 of management of Scientology, I would assume
17 combining those two things, that is what you mean.
18 THE WITNESS: Right. What I wasn't saying --
19 it was in 1982. I'm writing this affidavit in 19
20 whatever --
21 THE COURT: But everybody knew you had been out
22 of Scientology a long period of time. So nobody is
23 saying they assume today you knew that. It was when
24 you were there.
25 THE WITNESS: Right. What I think I would say
1478
1 is that I did not make it a point to point out that
2 hadn't been there in fifteen years or whatever. I
3 didn't not say it. I just didn't say it.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Well, Ms. Brooks, the next --
6 THE COURT: See, number one, "I was a member of
7 the Church of Scientology for fourteen years. From
8 January 1975 until January 1989."
9 So I would assume that after 1989, you have no
10 firsthand knowledge of anything in the Church of
11 Scientology.
12 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
13 THE COURT: And I would know that from reading
14 Paragraph 1. So when you read a declaration and --
15 and you are right, you need to define the parameters
16 of the declaration and that is what you do when you
17 say this period of time and this period of time.
18 Then when I read this, I assume you're talking only
19 about the experience that you had when you were in
20 ASI, which was certainly not all that period of
21 time, but a shorter period of time.
22 THE WITNESS: Right.
23 THE COURT: So that is fine. But, again, if
24 something is false, you better tell me it's false or
25 I'm going to assume it is true even though it may be
1479
1 slanted.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q The next sentence, if I may, is, "I have firsthand
5 knowledge of the establishment of the corporate structure of
6 Scientology as it now exists," and this was written in 1997,
7 so that would be slanted or not true. Correct?
8 A Well, it was my belief when I wrote this that
9 because of the things that people who were working on this
10 structure -- restructuring in 1982 told me.
11 Q But you say firsthand knowledge. What you said in
12 court the other day is it was really by virtue of secondhand
13 hearsay?
14 A Of that -- of those conversations that I had.
15 Q Then you say in Paragraph 28, "All Scientology
16 corporations are a sham."
17 And is that --
18 THE COURT: Wait a second, where are we?
19 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge, 28 on Page 9,
20 second line, "All Scientology corporations are a
21 sham."
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q And that would be trying to create the worst
24 possible impression. Is that an example of that?
25 A Yes. In fact, I have been advised by attorneys
1480
1 since then that that is a legal conclusion which I wasn't
2 qualified to make.
3 Q And the attorneys that were -- you were working
4 with at the time you wrote these affidavits didn't point
5 those things out to you, I take it?
6 A Well, the attorneys that I was working for were
7 happy to have me write this way.
8 Q Now, you wrote this affidavit in 1997, but do you
9 recall having testified in a deposition February 10, 1994 in
10 Sterling Management versus Cult Awareness Network, do you
11 recall having testified in a deposition there before --
12 THE COURT: What was the name of the lawsuit
13 again, Counselor?
14 MR. FUGATE: Sterling Management Systems versus
15 Cult Awareness Network, et al. It's a Superior
16 Court of the state of California, Los Angeles.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q I think actually Justice Eagleson, I think he was
19 a master in that case, but he was a Supreme Court Justice.
20 Is that correct?
21 A Yes, I remember that.
22 Q Do you recall him indicating that you were not an
23 expert in corporate structure and you agreed with that?
24 A I remember him -- I certainly remember him
25 indicating it.
1481
1 Q Well, I'll just read this.
2 A Perhaps I agreed with him. I don't remember that.
3 Q "Justice Eagleson: Counsel, please let her
4 finish. I know what's going on here and so do you. She
5 doesn't know the difference between a director or an
6 executive officer but let her finish.
7 "The witness: I don't claim to be an expert on
8 corporate matters."
9 And he says, "All right."
10 Is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 THE COURT: Me, either.
13 MR. FUGATE: Me, either.
14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm going to object to this
15 line of questioning because I thought when you
16 redirect your witness that you call you're supposed
17 to build up credibility, not tear it down.
18 THE COURT: Counsel, I don't need that. Sit
19 down.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q Now, I'm going to ask you --
22 MR. FUGATE: Could I have the Fishman
23 affidavit.
24 THE COURT: The rules of evidence -- I heard
25 somebody say so loud, "I don't get it." I'll tell
1482
1 you, rules of evidence allow a person to call their
2 own witness and impeach them. As long as you are
3 not calling the person solely for the purpose of
4 impeaching them, you can actually impeach your own
5 witness, both sides, everybody.
6 So things have changed from what they used to
7 be. The only thing you have to be careful is about
8 when somebody -- I see somebody putting somebody on
9 the stand for nothing other than to impeach them,
10 that is not permissible.
11 So that is not the sole purpose for which you
12 put her on the stand, so if he wants to impeach her
13 at this time, he can.
14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think, also, that this is
15 a slightly different process in that --
16 THE COURT: No question about that.
17 MR. FUGATE: That is all I'll say, Judge.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q If you turn to Page 11, and this is the Fishman
20 affidavit that was signed by you, I believe, on -- you know
21 what, I do need glasses. Can you --
22 A It is March 22nd.
23 Q Of 1994?
24 A It says. Yes.
25 THE COURT: Now, this is an affidavit that you
1483
1 have, and it is signed, and I'm going to assume this
2 is one Mr. Dandar would want to put in if he hasn't
3 already.
4 MR. FUGATE: I think it is in, in that group.
5 I just don't know the number, Judge. And I'll be
6 glad to mark it as a defendant's exhibit for the
7 clarity of the record, and it would be 76? Madam
8 Clerk?
9 THE CLERK: Yes.
10 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. I guess what I
11 was saying is if, in fact, this is one that
12 Mr. Dandar marked, do you remember he had a whole
13 series of them, and he couldn't get them in because
14 she said she would want to see signed versions --
15 MR. FUGATE: Right?
16 THE COURT: Okay, if this is one of those, then
17 I'm going -- and she says, you know, it is hers,
18 then it's been authenticated, then it comes in. So
19 I don't know if this is one of those or not.
20 Mr. Dandar, you'll have to check.
21 You don't have to put it in as your exhibit
22 unless you want to. Because he tried to put all
23 those in as his exhibits.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we go ahead and mark
25 this one because his were off the Internet and they
1484
1 were --
2 THE COURT: That is fine. What number is this?
3 MR. WEINBERG: 76.
4 THE CLERK: 76.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q I would like to --
7 THE COURT: Let's predicate that. You see,
8 ma'am, is that your signature? Because I sure don't
9 know.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q If you go to the --
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it is Plaintiff's Exhibit
14 24 so we have a cross-reference, as well.
15 THE COURT: It is Plaintiff's Exhibit 24?
16 MR. DANDAR: The one she couldn't identify.
17 THE COURT: Oh, okay. So now Plaintiff's
18 Number 24 is likewise in that came off the Internet
19 if it is compared and it is identical.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, which apparently it is not
21 quite --
22 THE WITNESS: Could we switch this and make
23 this the exhibit, the one that is signed, and take
24 that other one out that has goofs in it?
25 THE COURT: Actually, not, because it would be
1485
1 too confusing for the record. So we'll just leave
2 it as it is.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q Well, my question is --
5 THE COURT: But that is not in, Number 24
6 wasn't in. Now it is, but the real one is Number 76
7 for the plaintiff (sic).
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q I'm going to ask you a question again about your
10 comment about the worst possible impression --
11 THE COURT: I didn't say that well either,
12 Number 76 for the defendant.
13 MR. DANDAR: Right.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q If you'll look, Ms. Brooks, at line -- or
17 Paragraph 20 on Page 11, and I'll read a statement that you
18 made and ask you about it. "I believe that all
19 Scientologists, even current leadership --"
20 THE COURT: Show me where you are reading.
21 MR. FUGATE: Here, Judge, right here.
22 THE COURT: Thank you, I got it.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q "I believe that all Scientologists, even the
25 current leadership, are victims of Hubbard's version of mind
1486
1 control, just as I was. These people, including the
2 Scientology attorneys and paralegals who deal with the
3 courts, have no idea how much they are under the coercive
4 influence of Scientology and its leaders. They are utterly
5 fanatical about their dedication and determination to
6 protect Scientology from 'enemies' like my husband and me."
7 Now, you --
8 THE COURT: "Enemies," in quotes.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Yes, "enemies" in quotes. You wrote that and put
11 it in an affidavit, is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you don't mean to imply that you think that
14 about Mr. Weinberg, Ms. Yingling, me or any lawyers you are
15 dealing with, correct? Is that just a worst impression type
16 of statement?
17 A Mmm, well, you know, at the time I wrote it, I
18 think that I was of a state of mind to think the worst and
19 to have the worst possible opinion.
20 THE COURT: Is there a difference in -- when
21 you make a comment of Scientology attorneys and
22 paralegals and attorneys who are not Scientologists,
23 I don't know the answer to that.
24 MR. FUGATE: I don't, either.
25 THE COURT: Were you referring there to
1487
1 Scientology attorneys meaning attorneys who are also
2 Scientologists? Or were you referring to any
3 lawyer, whether they are a Scientologist or not, who
4 is defending or prosecuting or being plaintiff's
5 counsel or defendant's counsel for the Church?
6 THE WITNESS: Actually, your Honor, I think I
7 meant people like Mr. Moxon.
8 THE COURT: I wondered if that is what you
9 meant, people who were Scientologists --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, and paralegals.
11 THE COURT: Not Mr. Moxon specifically.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 THE COURT: But attorneys --
14 THE WITNESS: Somebody who might be an attorney
15 and also a Scientologist.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q But it was written to cast a negative impression
18 to the reader, and it was used by attorneys that you have
19 already told us about. Is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And is this one of the affidavits that you had
22 asked Mr. Leipold to withdraw?
23 A I believe this is the -- I'm not sure. But -- I'm
24 not sure. But I believe this is the affidavit that he had
25 filed.
1488
1 Q Well, I'm going to hand you up, if I may, a letter
2 that I think --
3 THE COURT: I thought that was another case. I
4 thought that was the case involving Mr. Wollersheim.
5 THE WITNESS: It was --
6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, I'll let her explain
7 because she knows better than I.
8 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I believe Mr. Leipold had me
9 sign a cover affidavit.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: And, your Honor, I'm not sure
12 this is the one because I'm not looking at it, but I
13 believe that this is the one.
14 THE COURT: Much like in this case you --
15 Mr. Dandar used an affidavit that you had signed in
16 a previous case with a cover of some sort?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Then let me hand this next exhibit up and ask you
21 to -- to take a look at it, if you will, and see if you can
22 identify it. I'll give the Court a copy. And this will be,
23 if admitted, 77.
24 I believe this is a letter that is part of the
25 documents you produced.
1489
1 Can you take a quick read of that and tell us what
2 affidavit, if you can, that you are relying -- you are
3 talking about?
4 THE COURT: This was produced pursuant to the
5 notice to produce?
6 MR. FUGATE: I believe it was produced to us
7 and I believe it is in the production. I just don't
8 know what the number is.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: What is it you want --
11 THE COURT: Was it, Counsel, part of --
12 MR. McGOWAN: I haven't seen it.
13 THE COURT: I don't remember, to be honest with
14 you.
15 MR. McGOWAN: No, this was not part of our
16 production.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Was this a letter you produced to Mr. Rinder?
19 A Yes.
20 MR. FUGATE: I believe it's in our production,
21 but I didn't pull it out, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. DANDAR: Is this 77?
24 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
25 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
1490
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q If you look, you say --
3 A I say, "Neither Bob Minton nor I are under
4 pressure from Scientology. What has happened is that after
5 years of telling lies and being used by you and other
6 anti-Scientology lawyers, we find ourselves facing serious
7 legal problems of our own and decided to tell the truth. We
8 have not been intimidated in any way. We just want to get
9 out of this anti-Scientology litigation enterprise that has
10 been fueled by Bob's money and end the lies."
11 Q And that is what you were explaining to
12 Mr. Leipold in response to his April 23rd letter?
13 A Yes.
14 Q I think there was some conversation about. My
15 question, however, was did you -- did you write this letter,
16 by the way? So we can authenticate it and move it into
17 evidence.
18 A Yes.
19 MR. FUGATE: I move it into evidence, your
20 Honor, as Defendant's 77.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. DANDAR: No objection, but we would like
23 Mr. Leipold's letter that this is responding to.
24 THE WITNESS: And you can also have
25 Mr. Leipold's letter that responded to this letter.
1491
1 MR. DANDAR: That would be fine.
2 MR. FUGATE: I don't have that one but
3 whatever.
4 THE COURT: Do we have the letters that it's in
5 response to?
6 MR. FUGATE: I think there was an unsigned
7 letter --
8 THE COURT: Mr. Minton raised his hands back
9 there.
10 MR. FUGATE: Good, Judge, then we'll have them.
11 But I don't have them, but I'll ask they be produced
12 through Mr. Minton.
13 THE COURT: Fine.
14 MR. FUGATE: All I want to do is ask a
15 question, if I can.
16 THE COURT: You may.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q I actually want to direct your attention, if I
19 may, to the second paragraph where you say, "I do not want
20 my declaration withdrawn because of pressure from
21 Scientology. I told you very clearly I want my declaration
22 withdrawn because it is not true."
23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you write that?
1492
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q Is that in reference to the declaration that we
3 were just reading from, which is the 20 -- whatever day of
4 March in the Fishman case?
5 A Yes. But I think I should clarify that, if you
6 would let me.
7 Q Go ahead.
8 A What I told Mr. Leipold --
9 THE COURT: Now I want to know what declaration
10 we're talking about. Now we can't have somebody
11 saying declaration is not true --
12 THE WITNESS: That is why I want to clarify
13 that statement.
14 THE COURT: I have to know what one it is.
15 THE WITNESS: It is this one, your Honor.
16 MR. FUGATE: That is why I was asking the
17 question, Judge.
18 THE COURT: But she wasn't sure. Do you
19 remember she said, "This is the one, I'm not sure
20 but it is the one, this one."
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Number 76?
23 THE WITNESS: I believe it is. But I want to
24 clarify that statement because I want you to
25 understand what I mean.
1493
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 THE WITNESS: In the conversations that I have
3 had with Mr. Leipold, I had been very clear with him
4 that I had -- well, that there were issues regarding
5 some of my statements in this affidavit that were
6 not based on any kind of information that I could
7 stand on.
8 In other words, I had gone over this with my
9 attorney. And I don't want to waive my
10 attorney-client privilege, but after having gone
11 over this affidavit with my attorney, I had advised
12 Mr. Leipold that I did not feel that I could back up
13 some of the statements that I had made in this
14 affidavit in testimony. And that I -- and that my
15 attorney had educated me about some legal issues
16 that I had not understood prior. And that based on
17 further information that I now understood, I wanted
18 him to withdraw my affidavit because of exactly the
19 kinds of things that we have just gone over; that,
20 you know, I said that I had personal knowledge, but
21 my personal knowledge was not enough personal
22 knowledge to back up the statement that I made. And
23 to that degree, I felt that it wasn't true.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q And you wrote a letter requesting it be withdrawn
1494
1 because, as you say, it wasn't true?
2 A Well, I -- actually, I believe what happened was I
3 made several phone calls to Mr. Leipold, asking him to
4 withdraw it. And then Mr. Leipold sent me a letter. So I
5 believe it was Mr. Leipold who sent the first letter.
6 But he was writing a letter in response to
7 telephone conversations that he and I had.
8 Q Let's move on. The fact of the matter is you
9 wrote the letter, you asked to have it withdrawn and said
10 what you said. Is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 THE COURT: Well, at some point in time I'm
13 going to ask her, if nobody else does, what about
14 this affidavit is not true. And what about it is
15 true. That is critical to me. I need to know
16 whether she has written an entirely false affidavit,
17 in addition to the false testimony she has given
18 here, or if there is a short small portion of it
19 that has already been --
20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: So you be prepared for that.
22 THE WITNESS: I can answer you now, perhaps.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 THE WITNESS: Mmm, as I -- as I said, when I
25 said that, it was in reference to passages in my
1495
1 declaration, such as the one that I just went over
2 with Mr. Fugate.
3 For example -- where was that paragraph?
4 THE COURT: You may not want to do it now. But
5 when we take a break, you just underline, highlight,
6 do whatever you want to do. I want you to read to
7 me line by line. I want to know what isn't true and
8 what is true about this affidavit.
9 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q Well, so we have some perspective on what is
13 happening, the only time prior to today, I take it, that you
14 have been questioned about what is in your affidavits was in
15 that deposition that I just made reference to where Justice
16 Eagleson was the special master, as far as these affidavits
17 that go to the Fishman case and that were in the Wollersheim
18 case and other cases. Is that correct?
19 A I --
20 Q Not the ones that are here?
21 A I may have -- I believe I was deposed more than
22 once.
23 Q All right.
24 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't intend to go through
25 everything line by line, Judge.
1496
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. FUGATE: I just pointed out things I had
3 concern with and she --
4 THE COURT: I understand, but once I have
5 somebody saying that something is not true, which
6 was suggested in this letter, I have an obligation
7 to do that.
8 MR. FUGATE: I understand. I just want the
9 Court to know I'm not going through affidavit by
10 affidavit. I don't have the stamina.
11 THE COURT: I understand. I don't, either. I
12 only want to talk about that that is not true that
13 was stated under oath so I can judge the credibility
14 of this witness.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q Now, without going through the affidavit -- and I
17 don't even recall the number. I trust the clerk will tell
18 me -- Mr. Lirot introduced a 1994 affidavit that you wrote
19 about meeting Mr. Rinder. We've heard some conversation
20 about that. Is that correct?
21 A Did I write an affidavit?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Yes.
24 MR. FUGATE: And I'll check with the clerk,
25 your Honor, so we have the number for the record.
1497
1 MR. LIROT: 14.
2 MR. FUGATE: It was admitted on May 7th.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q And that was the affidavit that you wrote in
5 conjunction with the Fishman case. Is that correct?
6 A Mmm, I don't believe it was ever -- I'm not sure
7 where that ended up being filed.
8 Q Well, you remember the affidavit we're talking
9 about?
10 A Yes.
11 Q I don't need to go through it. I just want to ask
12 you some questions.
13 THE COURT: Which date is that, Counsel?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't you just show it to
15 her.
16 THE COURT: Number 14, I see one right here
17 that has Number 14 on it so it must be that one.
18 MR. FUGATE: It is a '94 affidavit.
19 THE COURT: December 14 of 1994?
20 MR. FUGATE: That is it.
21 THE COURT: I have got it.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Let's -- the Fishman case, can we ask you to tell
24 us, was the Fishman case a case where Mr. Fishman was
25 claiming to have been a Scientologist? Is that the case
1498
1 we're talking about?
2 A That was one of the claims he made. Yeah.
3 Q You, in fact, didn't believe he was a
4 Scientologist, did you?
5 A Mmm, I didn't believe that he had ever done more
6 than buy a lot of Scientology materials. I didn't believe
7 that he was qualified ever to have been allowed to get any
8 auditing or anything like that.
9 Q And the attorney that was handling that case was
10 who?
11 A Graham Berry.
12 Q Did Mr. Berry ask you to read a book Mr. Fishman
13 had written called The Lonesome Squirrel?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And did he ask you to try to verify that that was
16 a book about his experience as a Scientologist at --
17 Mr. Fishman -- Mr. Fishman's experience as a Scientologist?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And after you read it, were you convinced that
20 Mr. Fishman was not a Scientologist?
21 A I was convinced that Mr. Fishman had not had the
22 experiences that he had claimed to have in that book.
23 Q And when you told Mr. Berry that, what was the
24 result?
25 A What was his response?
1499
1 Q Well, did he tell you, "Let's do some affidavits
2 anyway"?
3 A Yes, basically he said, "Well, what could have
4 happened?"
5 Q And this is where I think you told us so long ago
6 about your fabricated scenario of the end cycle. Do you
7 recall telling the Court about how you came up with the
8 scenario that I think you described --
9 A I don't -- go ahead, sir.
10 Q I think you described it as the end of cycle?
11 A That wasn't my term. That was Fishman's term that
12 he used.
13 Q But you wrote an affidavit trying to support that.
14 Correct?
15 A Mmm, I don't recall I was supporting his end cycle
16 thing.
17 Q Well, do you recall -- and this I guess is at a
18 time when you were writing affidavits and you were paid as
19 an expert. Do you recall coming up with the strategy of
20 serving celebrities at the Celebrity Center in 1993 with
21 subpoenas in that litigation?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And that was meant to harass folks, wasn't it,
24 that strategy?
25 A Yes.
1500
1 Q And was that a strategy like the strategy that you
2 have told us about, about bringing in the highest
3 management, trying to cause problems for Scientology? Was
4 that part of the strategy that you and your husband were
5 embarking on in your anti-Scientology consulting business?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And was that the type of strategy that the lawyers
8 that were employing you and paying you money wanted to see
9 occur, in your opinion?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And it was after that case that you first met
12 Mr. Rinder. Correct?
13 A No. I had known him when I was in Scientology.
14 Q You are right. I'm sorry. But the affidavit that
15 you have written about Mr. Rinder occurred after -- or
16 during the Fishman case. Is that correct? After these
17 events had happened and he came to you --
18 A He -- sorry.
19 Q Is that --
20 A It was after the Fishman case was resolved.
21 Q And, in fact, Mr. Rinder had written an affidavit,
22 had he not, and you have, I think, had it posted, or someone
23 had it posted, on the LMT website, is that correct?
24 A Are you talking about the affidavit he wrote about
25 our meeting?
1501
1 Q Uh-huh.
2 A He did write one. Yes.
3 Q And have you had a chance to look at that lately?
4 A Not very much.
5 Q I think it is --
6 MR. FUGATE: Actually, Judge, I think this is
7 one I need to explain. Mr. McGowan and I were going
8 to address it and we got off on --
9 THE WITNESS: Wait, this is my declaration.
10 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge.
11 THE COURT: Here is another declaration that is
12 signed.
13 MR. FUGATE: But I think -- I think I gave you
14 the wrong one.
15 THE COURT: Well, let's see if we can get this
16 one in, an authentic declaration. This is one
17 dated -- oh, this one already is in.
18 MR. FUGATE: It's in, Judge.
19 THE COURT: But it's not signed. And so now
20 this is a signed one. So to the extent that the one
21 on December 14th that was pulled off the Internet,
22 and this one, are the same, then you would verify
23 that it's an affidavit of yours, is that correct?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
25 MR. DANDAR: Is this her affidavit?
1502
1 MR. FUGATE: This is Mr. Rinder's affidavit.
2 THE COURT: This is her affidavit dated
3 December 14 of 1994. It's really in evidence but --
4 in other words, we've already accepted that into
5 evidence because she has gone over it. But now we
6 have it in signed form so there is no question about
7 it being authentic to the extent it matches up with
8 the one pulled off the Internet. To the extent it
9 has errors or what have you, that she indicated can
10 occur during scanning, it is not authentic. Or at
11 least it hasn't been authenticated.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Okay. This is Mr. Rinder's
14 affidavit. And this you are going to try to
15 introduce?
16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I want to clarify the record
17 on something.
18 This is in the document production, this
19 particular affidavit that we provided to the Court
20 as documents being produced from Ms. Brooks -- or to
21 Ms. Brooks. And I think that what happened there is
22 that I gave this to counsel the day that she was
23 testifying and she went on cross-examination, so I
24 don't really think she saw it, properly so.
25
1503
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q But it was part of the production, so I'm going to
3 ask you if you just look at it. And can you identify it,
4 and if you can -- if you have to read the whole thing --
5 THE COURT: I'm confused, so we need to stop.
6 Is this part of the packet that you produced to
7 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Dandar said, "I want you to
8 produce to us everything that was provided to her"?
9 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
10 THE COURT: Before she wrote her second
11 affidavit?
12 MR. FUGATE: No. All of the documents were
13 produced to Mr. McGowan and Ms. Brooks is what the
14 production was.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. FUGATE: And what I'm saying to you is I
17 did produce this to Mr. McGowan. I think when she
18 said, "I haven't seen it before," somebody asked her
19 about it, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I gave
20 it to him, she was on cross, so I assume she didn't
21 look at it. Is that right?
22 THE COURT: Well, did you give it to Mr. Lirot?
23 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
24 MR. LIROT: Judge, it was already identified
25 and entered into evidence as 15V as in Victor.
1504
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. McGOWAN: That is correct.
3 MR. FUGATE: Well, much to-do about nothing.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Do you recognize it?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And it was written prior to your affidavit dealing
8 with Mr. Rinder and offer of money --
9 A Yes.
10 Q -- and all of the things we talked about. Is that
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And I think Mr. Lirot asked you if you believed
14 that what you have written there was that you were being
15 offered money to be silenced. And I think you said that you
16 were. Is that correct?
17 A I don't remember that I said that.
18 Q Well, let me ask you this. It was Graham Berry
19 that you were working for in that case, is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do you remember Mr. Berry writing a letter,
22 making a $3 million settlement demand, on your behalf, for
23 you and your husband, with regard to that case and
24 withdrawing your support as a Scientology critic? Do you
25 remember that?
1505
1 A Mmm, I -- what I recall is that Mr. Berry wrote a
2 letter basically outlining a global settlement offer which
3 he included us in.
4 Q I want to ask you --
5 MR. FUGATE: If I may approach the witness,
6 your Honor.
7 THE COURT: You may. Did you say million or
8 billion?
9 MR. FUGATE: Million.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q If you flip -- do you recognize the letter, by the
13 way, and you are aware of the letter being written?
14 A I recognize the signature and I believe this was
15 the letter that was written.
16 Q The date of the letter is February 16, 1994.
17 Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And Mr. Rinder's affidavit is --
20 A That was later.
21 Q -- written after this letter was provided.
22 Correct?
23 A Well --
24 Q His affidavit was --
25 A Well, his was in October.
1506
1 Q October of 1994 is Mr. Rinder's affidavit
2 describing what he recalled happening. Correct? Look at
3 the schedule at the back of this letter. Do you have that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q It says, "Potential group settlement
6 participants." Do you see that?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you see, probably a little better than halfway
9 down the page, it says, "Vaughn and Stacy Young,
10 $3 million"?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And does that indicate that there was a settlement
13 request or demand made by Mr. Berry on your behalf?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, at that time, did you have any litigation
16 pending against Scientology?
17 A No.
18 Q The Church of Scientology in any form?
19 A No.
20 Q Did any of the other folks there have any --
21 besides Mr. Geertz and Mr. Fishman, who appears to be the
22 only case that is set out, did anybody else here, Aznarans,
23 Wollersheim, Andre and Mary Tabayoyon, et cetera, did these
24 folks have lawsuits pending when this was signed?
25 A I believe so.
1507
1 Q Did Mr. Berry represent all those folks?
2 A Mmm --
3 Q He didn't, did he?
4 A I don't believe he did. I'm not saying that all
5 these people had any. But I believe perhaps the Wollersheim
6 litigation -- yes, that was still ongoing. I mean, it
7 hadn't been resolved. And I don't know if the Aznarans
8 were.
9 Q He had three asterisks by "High level Scientology
10 defector to be revealed next week," and he wants $5 million
11 for him. So this is the Graham Berry that you were writing
12 affidavits that you have described to the court --
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, he appears to be the one that was asking for
15 a settlement when there was no lawsuit pending on behalf of
16 you or your husband, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Just to be clear, no money was paid to you by the
19 Church or any entity of the Church at all at that time. Was
20 there?
21 A No.
22 Q And after this settlement demand letter was
23 written, you carried on with your anti-Scientology expert
24 role or testimony role and the critic community soon
25 thereafter developed. Is that correct?
1508
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, you had testified, and I think there was some
3 parsing as to the exact term and I'm not going to go there,
4 but you said that in these years '94 through to the present
5 time, I think your testimony in your affidavit was your
6 primary source of income was from being a consultant and
7 writing affidavits or providing consulting services.
8 A Yes.
9 Q And do you have any idea approximately what you
10 have been paid over those years for doing that?
11 A Whew.
12 Q And this isn't -- if you have a ballpark, ballpark
13 is fine. I'm just asking if you have an idea what that
14 would amount to over the years.
15 A Perhaps up to $200,000.
16 Q But you were never paid any money by Scientology
17 despite these demands by lawyers. Is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 THE COURT: Were there more demands? I don't
20 know. Or are we talking about this demand?
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Were there any other demands to make --
23 A You mean like this?
24 Q Like the letter?
25 A Mmm, I don't believe so.
1509
1 MR. FUGATE: Then I stand corrected.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q The demand by Mr. Graham Berry. And you are not
4 being paid to testify in this proceeding by anyone. Are
5 you?
6 A No. I'm not doing that anymore.
7 Q I understand. Now, is Mr. Graham Berry the same
8 Graham Berry that filed the lawsuit on behalf of the
9 witness, Michael Pattinson, in this case?
10 THE COURT: Which case, Counsel?
11 MR. FUGATE: The wrongful death case.
12 THE COURT: The case I'm in?
13 MR. FUGATE: The case you are in now.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Are you aware of Mr. Dandar listed one of his
16 witnesses a Michael Pattinson?
17 THE COURT: Because I never heard of it before.
18 It doesn't mean anything.
19 A Yes.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q You are aware of that? Are you aware Mr. Berry
22 filed a lawsuit on Mr. Pattinson's behalf?
23 A Yes. But did you say that lawsuit was part of
24 this lawsuit?
25 Q No, I said Mr. Pattinson had been listed by
1510
1 Mr. Dandar as a witness in this case?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And have you seen --
4 MR. FUGATE: This is only the caption page.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q Have you seen a copy of the lawsuit filed by
7 Mr. Berry on Mr. Pattinson's behalf?
8 A I believe I did at some point.
9 Q He's suing, according to the face page,
10 Mr. Miscavige, as well as Bill Clinton, and John Travolta,
11 et cetera.
12 A Et cetera, et cetera.
13 Q Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
14 THE COURT: Madeleine Albright?
15 MR. FUGATE: Madeleine Albright.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't know she was in there,
17 your Honor, but --
18 THE COURT: Yes, she is. I see her.
19 MR. FUGATE: She's on there.
20 THE WITNESS: Just about everybody.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q And is this the same Mr. Graham Berry who was
23 ultimately declared to be a vexatious litigant under
24 California law because of the lawsuits that he had brought
25 against the Church of Scientology?
1511
1 A Yes.
2 Q He's the lawyer that first introduced you to
3 testify against Scientology and was one of the ones --
4 THE COURT: Does this have a number? I
5 don't -- I did not write a number down. Did you
6 mean for this to be introduced?
7 MR. FUGATE: You know what, yes, Judge. It
8 would be 79? Madam Clerk?
9 THE CLERK: Did you do 78?
10 MR. FUGATE: There you go, 78, Judge.
11 THE COURT: Do you have any objection?
12 MR. DANDAR: It is relevance, Judge.
13 THE COURT: It may not be, but I'm going to let
14 it in any way. What number?
15 THE CLERK: 78.
16 MR. DANDAR: It's just the first two pages of a
17 complaint.
18 THE COURT: I know, but the truth of the matter
19 is I don't want the whole complaint. Can you
20 imagine how thick it must be?
21 MR. LIEBERMAN: It was actually about 200 pages
22 long.
23 THE COURT: Yes, see. So --
24 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge, I think we may
25 be misnumbering because the Graham -- the Graham
1512
1 Berry letter I did introduce, and would that have
2 been 78?
3 MR. DANDAR: 77.
4 MR. FUGATE: 77?
5 THE CLERK: That is 77.
6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, then this is 78. I'm
7 sorry, Judge, I'm having --
8 THE COURT: I have a clerk here. You can see
9 why I asked for a clerk.
10 MR. FUGATE: That is okay. I'm getting radio
11 signals from the back.
12 MR. DANDAR: Sorry.
13 MR. FUGATE: I didn't mean you actually.
14 MR. DANDAR: No. Is 77 the letter from Brooks
15 to Leipold?
16 MR. FUGATE: No, the letter from Graham Berry
17 asking for a $3 million settlement demand.
18 MR. LIROT: Dated February 16, 1994?
19 MR. WEINBERG: You need to look and see what --
20 THE COURT: The letter from Graham Berry has
21 not been introduced.
22 THE CLERK: Right, you didn't say about
23 introducing it.
24 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, do you know what is
25 confusing her, Judge, I did correctly speak. We've
1513
1 introduced the Leipold letter.
2 THE COURT: Right.
3 MR. FUGATE: The Graham Berry letter would be
4 78. Then I would have been right, the Pattinson
5 lawsuit would be 79.
6 THE COURT: The Graham Berry letter to whom
7 now?
8 MR. FUGATE: It's to Jonathan LaBelle.
9 MR. DANDAR: Rank hearsay.
10 THE COURT: Sustained. That is not
11 authenticated.
12 MR. FUGATE: I said did she recognize it and
13 was she aware it had been presented.
14 THE COURT: Did she?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Then I'll allow it. It is
17 hearsay, but if she can identify it, I'll let it in.
18 MR. DANDAR: Is the complaint page of the 20
19 defendants, is that -- what number is that?
20 MR. FUGATE: That is correctly 79. Right,
21 Madam Clerk?
22 THE CLERK: Yes.
23 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
24 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Did I give you this?
25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
1514
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Do you recognize a copy of the -- which would be
3 80 -- which is the suspension letter for Mr. Berry?
4 A Mr. Fugate, I have never actually seen the letter.
5 I have --
6 Q Maybe this --
7 A -- been told it happened.
8 Q Pardon me?
9 A I had been told it happened, but I have never
10 actually seen this before.
11 MR. FUGATE: Then I would withdraw this, Judge.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 BY MR. FUGATE:
14 Q Are you aware Mr. Berry was, in fact, disciplined
15 and suspended by the California Supreme Court?
16 A Yes. I was.
17 Q And is this the same Graham Berry that was a
18 member of or employed by LMT at one time?
19 A He was going to be. I changed my mind.
20 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: You may.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Did he do work for LMT in Germany, Mr. Graham
24 Berry?
25 A He was supposed to.
1515
1 Q I'm sorry?
2 A He was supposed to.
3 Q Did he bill for work in Germany?
4 A Mmm, I don't believe he ever actually billed for
5 it because he never actually did it.
6 MR. FUGATE: Then 80 would not be -- we would
7 not submit it, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Now, Mr. Lirot read to you from a harassment time
11 line that you prepared and posted on the LMT. Is that
12 correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And that would have been a time line that was
15 posted for the critic community to read, and it was written
16 for that audience. Is that correct?
17 A Mmm, as it happened, it was. Yes. I had hoped to
18 have another use for it, but that wasn't -- that didn't turn
19 out to be workable.
20 Q And if it had been a accurate harassment time line
21 that recorded both the harassment by the LMT and members, as
22 well as the perceived harassment by the Church, it would
23 have been much longer, correct, with pickets, et cetera?
24 A I think it probably would have been twice as long.
25 THE COURT: I understand that. If it had been
1516
1 accurate? Are you saying that is a law?
2 MR. FUGATE: No, balance.
3 THE WITNESS: Balance. I think she --
4 MR. FUGATE: I think she said at one time when
5 we picketed, they picketed.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q I actually should ask you that. Do you remember
8 saying when we picketed the Church, the Church would picket
9 us, words to that effect?
10 A Yes.
11 Q So if this harassment time line were balanced and
12 showed both versions, it would be at least twice as long, is
13 that what we're looking at?
14 A If it were balanced and showed harassment from
15 both sides.
16 THE COURT: Did you all go to members of the
17 Church of Scientology's families and children? LMT?
18 THE WITNESS: Mmm, no.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Well, did you and Mr. Minton go to Bennetta
21 Slaughter's home and picket one night?
22 A Yes, we did one night.
23 Q Bennetta Slaughter is known to be a public member
24 of the Church of Scientology?
25 A Yes.
1517
1 Q And she was Lisa McPherson's employer at AMC, is
2 that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 THE COURT: That is once. As I recall in your
5 time line you talk about several occasions when
6 Mr. Minton's wife and family were somehow harassed,
7 at least you said they were harassed, by members of
8 the Church of Scientology.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: And so while it may not have been
11 twice as long, it would have been longer if you had
12 put in your own harassment or LMT's harassment of
13 the Church and members of the Church.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: I don't want to read one that is
16 twice as long, so --
17 MR. FUGATE: I'm not going to --
18 THE COURT: I'll just accept that.
19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I promise you, I'm trying
20 to move through this.
21 THE COURT: I know.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q I'm going to ask you to look at --
24 MR. FUGATE: This will be 80, Madam Clerk?
25 THE CLERK: Yes.
1518
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q -- what I'll offer as Exhibit 80, I think it's a
3 list?
4 THE COURT: No, 80 is something that has been
5 identified, but it has not been received.
6 MR. FUGATE: 81. I'm sorry, I'll hand this up
7 to you.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q Do you recognize -- this is a copy, granted, of
10 the list of officers, staff, board of directors, advisory
11 committee, et cetera, of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
12 A It was a list at one time, yes.
13 Q Well, let me put it to you this way. This was
14 published or put out by LMT. Is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 MR. FUGATE: And I would move it into evidence
17 as Exhibit 81.
18 THE COURT: Is this like a little brochure that
19 would have been folded like this?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it had writing on the other
21 side, too, and it was folded.
22 MR. FUGATE: Actually, Judge, I am remiss
23 because I should have introduced it at the beginning
24 because it is kind of a score card of keeping track
25 who folks are.
1519
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q In fact, let's just take a look at that, if we
4 can, for a minute.
5 On this particular one, you are the president,
6 listed as the president. Correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you were employed in the -- Mr. Dandar's trial
9 team, is that correct, at one point?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Jesse Prince is listed as the executive
12 vice-president. Is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And he, of course, was part of Mr. Dandar's trial
15 team. Is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q We have Grady Ward that we've heard about, and
18 he's what you call the webmaster and security person?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is he a person that was also funded by Mr. Minton?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And he's been funded in other litigation against
23 the Church?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And where is -- well, I'll wait on that a minute.
1520
1 Now we see on the board of directors Peter
2 Alexander. Who is Peter Alexander?
3 A Peter Alexander is a former Scientologist who is
4 the one who -- well, one of the two people who produced that
5 movie, "The Prophet."
6 Q That is associated with Courage Productions that
7 we saw on that wheel thing that Mr. --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- Lirot handed up?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And skipping down past you again to Patricia
12 Greenway, who is Patricia Greenway?
13 A She's Peter Alexander's partner, one of Peter
14 Alexander's partners in Courage Productions.
15 Q Is she, to your knowledge, part of Mr. Dandar's
16 trial team, these days?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that -- well, she was present here earlier, the
19 woman in white with the white dark glasses?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Has a phone that goes off?
22 A Yes.
23 THE COURT: Which phone?
24 MR. FUGATE: The one that plays the tune that I
25 still am trying to identify, Judge.
1521
1 MR. LIROT: The non-Mozart phone, Judge.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q She and Mr. Dandar are also folks funded by
4 Mr. Minton?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And how much money, if you are aware, was put into
7 the filming of "The Prophet" by Mr. Minton?
8 A Mr. Minton invested 2 and a half million dollars
9 into that film.
10 Q Is this the Ms. Greenway that recommended
11 hiring -- recommended to you to hire Mr. Merrett into --
12 A Yes.
13 Q -- your -- to represent you on behalf of LMT and
14 you individually at the time?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Jeff Jacobson is who?
17 A He is a member of the Scientology critic
18 community. And he had, and I believe still has, an
19 extensive website about Lisa McPherson. And he was a staff
20 member at LMT.
21 Q Was he ever given an award, to your knowledge, by
22 Mr. Minton? Do you recall?
23 A I don't.
24 Q Who is Rod Keller?
25 A He's another member of the Scientology critic
1522
1 community.
2 Q And has he been paid by Mr. Minton, as well, to
3 your knowledge?
4 A I don't believe so.
5 Q Mr. Jacobson has, however, though, correct?
6 A Well, as an LMT staff member.
7 Q And Kim Krenek is who?
8 A She, I believe, is the niece of Dell Liebreich.
9 Q And Dell Liebreich, of course we know, is the
10 personal representative.
11 Bob Minton we know. Jesse Prince, we know.
12 Gerry Armstrong, is that the same Gerry Armstrong
13 we heard about in, oh, so many days of testimony?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And he was brought into the LMT by who?
16 A Mr. Minton.
17 Q Then we see advisory members Ken Dandar. That
18 would be Mr. Dandar here. Correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And is Mr. Dandar the one that incorporated the
21 LMT?
22 A Yes.
23 THE COURT: That has been asked and answered, I
24 believe.
25 MR. FUGATE: I'm moving on, Judge.
1523
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q We have Mr. Emmons. Do you see Ray Emmons?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Who is Mr. Emmons?
5 A He's a private investigator who used to be a
6 member of the Clearwater Police Department.
7 Q He's a private investigator. Is he employed by
8 Mr. Dandar in the personal -- or wrongful death case, to
9 your knowledge?
10 A I believe so.
11 Q Steve Hassan?
12 A Yes?
13 Q Who is he?
14 A He's a man who -- who has an organization which
15 deals with people who are coming out of cults.
16 Q And was he paid money by Mr. Minton to take part
17 in the LMT?
18 A Well, he wasn't paid money by Mr. Minton to take
19 part in the LMT, but he -- Mr. Minton has paid him.
20 Q Keith Henson, who is he?
21 A Keith Henson is another member of the critic
22 community that Mr. Minton has funded in the past.
23 Q Dan Leipold we heard about. Mr. Oliver?
24 A He's a former Scientologist who is, I believe,
25 supposed to testify in this hearing.
1524
1 Q And he was on the advisory committee of LMT, as
2 well?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is he part of the critic community, as you call
5 it?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Arnie Lerma?
8 A He's a former Scientologist who is a part of the
9 critic community.
10 Q Margery Wakefield?
11 A She's a part of the critic community.
12 Q Was she also listed as an expert witness for
13 Mr. Dandar in the wrongful death lawsuit?
14 A I believe so. Yes.
15 Q And has she been paid with moneys from LMT, or
16 Mr. Minton, to your knowledge?
17 A Mmm, I believe that is possible.
18 Q And Lawrence Wollersheim we've heard about. He
19 was also on the advisory committee. Is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And he had been funded, in his litigation, by
22 Mr. Minton, I think we've heard about?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, the Internet resources that you list there,
25 these resources, in general, are critic community type
1525
1 resources where you could go to -- I think the majority of
2 them where you could go to find out things about the Lisa
3 McPherson case or other anti-Scientology information?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, www.zenu.net, N-E-T. Who do you know is that
6 Internet website associated with?
7 A I believe that is the address for Operation
8 Clambake.
9 Q Would that be Andreas Heldal-Lund's site?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And is this the person -- or the entity, that
12 Clambake, Operation Clambake, is that where the 300,000 came
13 from that went into the LMT funding?
14 A Yes.
15 THE COURT: Immediately thereafter, into
16 Mr. Minton's pocket, is that correct?
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it went into his
18 pocket, your Honor, but it went into his account.
19 THE COURT: Kind of a real quick turn through
20 LMT?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Now, there was talk about --
24 THE COURT: Certainly LMT didn't consider it
25 income because it is not on its income tax return.
1526
1 THE WITNESS: Correct.
2 THE COURT: So whatever it was, it wasn't any
3 income or anything to LMT.
4 THE WITNESS: Right.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q This particular website, is it a website where
7 there -- and I understand all that free speech, but there
8 are some pretty outrageous, hurtful things posted about
9 Scientology and Scientologists on that website, is that
10 correct?
11 A Yes.
12 THE COURT: I don't see the one on there that
13 we've been looking at -- everything I think I have
14 seen introduced is from one that doesn't seem to be
15 on there.
16 MR. FUGATE: ARS?
17 MR. WEINBERG: That is a different -- you mean
18 on the thing?
19 THE COURT: The stuff you all have been
20 introducing and the one I see mentioned from time to
21 time.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm told it's a newsgroup, maybe
23 she can explain, which is different than a website.
24 But beyond that, I don't know.
25 THE COURT: Is that not one of these?
1527
1 THE WITNESS: All right. Talking about
2 ALT.religion.Scientology?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: These things listed are websites.
5 THE COURT: I'm real stupid. I don't
6 understand it. I just know enough to go in there if
7 I want to see something like searsroebuck.com,
8 C-O-M.
9 I don't know what that is. That is one of
10 these?
11 THE WITNESS: That is one of these.
12 Alt.religion.Scientology is a different thing. It's
13 called a newsgroup, and you access a newsgroup in a
14 different way.
15 THE COURT: So if I went in and typed in
16 ALT.religion.Scientology, something wouldn't come up
17 with the page on it?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe if you asked
19 Mr. Minton that question, he could explain it to
20 you.
21 THE COURT: Okay. So that is why it's not here
22 is because it's something different?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Okay. So I can't go in and read --
25 if I wanted to go in and read whatever that is,
1528
1 those postings are, I would not do that the -- the
2 only way I know is to go up here and put in what I
3 want to see and click "Enter" and I get a page.
4 That is not how I would get this site?
5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, as I understand it,
6 you have to go through one extra step. And I don't
7 know what it is.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 THE WITNESS: But Mr. Minton could explain it
10 to you.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, is it possible that
13 we could turn Ms. Brooks' microphone on or get her a
14 little closer to the mike?
15 THE COURT: Sure, I don't know if it is on. I
16 tell you what we can do is it's been about an hour
17 and a half, my court reporter would probably
18 appreciate it, let's take a break. Twenty-minute
19 break.
20 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
21 ____________________________________
22 THE COURT: All right. Continue.
23 MR. McGOWAN: Judge, if I may interrupt a
24 moment?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
1529
1 MR. McGOWAN: If it please the Court, the Court
2 asked Ms. Brooks to go through, compare the -- those
3 signed affidavits which are in evidence, some
4 apparently are coming in now, to the exhibits -- I
5 think they are, more or less, 20 through 29 that
6 were proffered by the plaintiff but not in evidence
7 and not authenticated.
8 THE COURT: Those that we've seen that have a
9 signature on it.
10 MR. McGOWAN: Right.
11 THE COURT: I don't know if they are. But if
12 they're part of that --
13 MR. McGOWAN: I have got what came from the
14 Internet, and I'm in the process of working with
15 plaintiff's counsel to get the numbers and what is
16 in and what is not in straightened out.
17 And I would just ask, to speed this along, I
18 know at some point they are going to want to call
19 her back and compare these things to see if they
20 match, or to see which is which.
21 If I can be provided a copy of such affidavits
22 as either side has, signed by her, perhaps we can
23 help --
24 THE COURT: Once we get the signed affidavits,
25 we don't need those things off the Internet.
1530
1 MR. McGOWAN: Correct.
2 THE COURT: I assume those can be withdrawn,
3 and the ones that are signed would go in evidence.
4 MR. McGOWAN: Fine.
5 MR. FUGATE: From our side of the equation,
6 I'll locate the ones I'm aware of, and she can look
7 at them with Mr. McGowan and --
8 THE COURT: I wouldn't waste your time
9 comparing them to the Internet. To be truthful, if
10 we have the signed ones --
11 MR. McGOWAN: Fine.
12 THE COURT: -- we'll just take the other one
13 out and agree that is the one that doesn't count,
14 and what is signed is the one that counts. So I
15 wouldn't go through it line by line.
16 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine, too. If somebody
17 has them and it can save some time, we can get this
18 done.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, if you have any signed
20 affidavits, as you look through your pleadings and
21 things, if you might do the same thing, show them to
22 counsel?
23 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we're, I believe, getting
24 in signed affidavits of Ms. Brooks that will
25 represent the ones that came off the website.
1531
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 MR. McGOWAN: Just so I can get a copy, that
3 will speed things along. Ms. Brooks has --
4 THE COURT: If you can get a copy. But, again,
5 I don't think we need to, at that point, go through
6 the ones that were on the Internet because those can
7 just be withdrawn.
8 MR. DANDAR: And substituted with the ones that
9 are signed.
10 THE COURT: And substituted, so that what is
11 signed is what will be the affidavit.
12 MR. McGOWAN: Exactly. All right?
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. McGOWAN: I'm just trying to keep her from
15 having to read it on the stand. I know the Court
16 instructed her to read one in the break. And her
17 emotional state is such now, I don't know that --
18 THE COURT: The one I wanted to know, the one
19 she said in a letter she said was not true, that is
20 the one I wanted to know what wasn't true and what
21 was true. I don't believe she said anything else
22 wasn't true.
23 MR. McGOWAN: She didn't. And I can tell you,
24 during the break she was not able to go -- look at
25 that affidavit. You asked her to, but she's -- her
1532
1 emotions are coming to the surface. It has been a
2 long number of days and she has just been unable to
3 do it.
4 THE COURT: Okay. She can do it overnight
5 or --
6 MR. McGOWAN: Fine.
7 THE COURT: Overnight, or over the weekend,
8 whatever. At some point in time, it needs to be
9 done.
10 MR. McGOWAN: Absolutely. But I wanted to tell
11 you, it didn't get down.
12 THE COURT: There is no rush. I didn't know if
13 it could be done over the break.
14 MR. FUGATE: All I'm trying to do is eliminate
15 areas I'm aware of. And they can do whatever they
16 want in any amount of time. I really don't care. I
17 just want to get through --
18 THE COURT: Me, too.
19 MR. FUGATE: -- through this.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q I put up on -- Ms. Brooks, I put up on the witness
22 stand in the break, to save a little time and gave to
23 counsel, the next two exhibits, and which would be
24 consecutively --
25 THE CLERK: 82 and 83.
1533
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q We were talking about Operation Clambake and the
3 website. These are fairly recent postings from the
4 Operation Clambake website.
5 And we had been talking about a time line. I
6 direct your attention to the short one. And if you will
7 note --
8 THE COURT: The short one is Number 82?
9 MR. FUGATE: 82.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q It says: "Slicer (phonetic): Monday, March 22,
13 2002, 10:16 a.m. Justice defined? I wonder who is going to
14 execute Miscavige. Note to Clam higher-ups seeking position
15 by vacancy. I charge 50,000 minus 5,000. Asshole discount
16 for him."
17 Is that the sort of postings that one would see on
18 Operation Clambake?
19 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Relevance. This is
20 from Norway. This is not LMT, Minton, Brooks or
21 especially the estate.
22 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it, anyway.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q Have you seen this posting before?
25 A Mr. Fugate, I haven't seen this one specifically.
1534
1 But I have seen so many postings in such bad taste that I
2 really got to the point where I don't even go to these
3 websites anymore.
4 Q And -- I understand. And I understand your
5 testimony the other day is you are trying to extricate
6 yourself from all of this.
7 But the point that I'm making here in Exhibit 81
8 and 82 are many postings have involved death threats to
9 Mr. Miscavige or family members, correct, that you have
10 seen?
11 A Well, many postings have involved insults and
12 threats and very inappropriate language about Mr. Miscavige.
13 Q And if we were doing a balanced sort of time line
14 for harassment, those sort of things should go on that, as
15 well, correct?
16 A Well, if you were going to do a time line that
17 included all critics harassment --
18 Q It would be massive?
19 A -- it would be -- yes. I would never even try to
20 attempt to put that together.
21 THE COURT: Which way are you going here? All
22 critics harassment of the Church? Or all Church's
23 harassment of the critics?
24 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what I'm saying,
25 there is a very large community of critics of
1535
1 Scientology. I don't -- there is a lot of it I
2 don't even know. But on the Internet they all come
3 together and they say a lot of very nasty things.
4 And Mr. Fugate's point is that of all of the
5 nasty things and harassive things that all of the
6 critics have done against the Church of Scientology,
7 it would tend to balance things out. I mean, it
8 wasn't just limited to the LMT, I believe.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Let me ask you a specific question to get to a
11 point.
12 There was never anything -- I didn't see anything
13 in your time line that you produced and posted on LMT that
14 reflected anything about a death threat to you or
15 Mr. Minton, is that correct? Nothing like that was ever
16 done or posted, was it?
17 A I believe you are right.
18 Q Now, we were talking about Keith Henson a moment
19 ago. And are you aware that Mr. Henson has, in fact, made
20 serious threats against the Church and was, in fact,
21 convicted of such threats?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And that is the same Mr. Henson that was on the
24 LMT?
25 A Yes.
1536
1 Q And is that the same Mr. Henson that was
2 represented by Graham Berry in litigation funded by
3 Mr. Minton?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And he has since fled -- he, Mr. Henson, has since
6 fled to Canada, as I understand it. Is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 THE COURT: I think we did have testimony about
9 that already.
10 MR. FUGATE: If we did, Judge, I apologize.
11 MR. LIEBERMAN: That was Armstrong.
12 THE COURT: Oh. Sorry.
13 MR. LIEBERMAN: They both fled to Canada.
14 THE COURT: I knew somebody fled.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q So Mr. Armstrong, who is also on the LMT advisory
17 board, has also fled to Canada, as well --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- as Mr. Henson?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, also we talked about picketing and picketing,
22 one side and the other. I'm going to approach you and show
23 you a photograph, which would be Defendant's Exhibit Number?
24 MR. WEINBERG: 84.
25 THE CLERK: 84.
1537
1 THE COURT: 83, is this more of the same,
2 distasteful posting?
3 MR. FUGATE: Yes. This would be 84.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Can you identify that photograph and the folks
6 that are in it?
7 A Mmm, the folks in it I can identify.
8 Q Okay.
9 A From left to right, Bob Minton, myself, Patricia
10 Greenway in the white sunglasses, Peter Alexander, and I
11 believe that is Ray Emmons.
12 Q Is that Mr. -- that is Ms. Greenway, for the
13 record (pointing), so we can identify her. Correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And Mr. Emmons was in the courtroom. And he's
16 picketing in this photograph?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And, of course, Peter Alexander and Ms. Greenway,
19 you have indicated who they were, that they were members of
20 the board.
21 Mr. Emmons also is part of Mr. Dandar's trial
22 team, he's the investigator for Mr. Dandar, correct?
23 THE COURT: Who?
24 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Emmons, the fellow here in the
25 plaid shirt that has a sign that said: "Scientology
1538
1 is Evil, hate masquerading as a church."
2 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the compound
3 question, and identifying an independent private
4 investigator as part of someone's trial team.
5 THE COURT: If she can answer the question, she
6 can answer it the best she understands or knows.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Emmons is an
9 investigator working for Mr. Dandar in the wrongful death
10 case?
11 A I believe he is.
12 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Competence. No
13 foundation.
14 THE COURT: Sustained. She doesn't know.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q And he was working for the LMT -- or was he
17 working for the LMT?
18 A He did some work for the LMT.
19 Q And he's on the advisory committee, I believe,
20 right under Mr. Dandar. Correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And he was the gentleman sitting in the back here
23 a little while ago in court. Correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q So there is no misunderstanding, that was a
1539
1 photograph of picketing that took place. Correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Where was that picketing in front of, if you know?
4 A It's possible that it was a photograph taken in
5 front of the Sand Castle.
6 Q And the Sand Castle, for the Court's benefit, is
7 what?
8 A It's a building owned by the Church of Scientology
9 where public Scientologists stay in Clearwater.
10 Q Now I'm going to move to a different topic, and
11 that is in the complaint that is currently -- the current
12 version of the complaint, the fifth amended complaint.
13 There is an allegation in there that Lisa
14 McPherson wanted to leave Scientology. If you have it there
15 in front of you --
16 A I do.
17 Q -- I believe it's enumerated Paragraph 31A, if I'm
18 not mistaken. And -- I haven't committed it to memory, but
19 I think that is accurate.
20 A Paragraph what?
21 Q 31A, I believe.
22 A Okay.
23 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you that he had evidence and
24 information that Lisa McPherson wanted to leave Scientology
25 and wanted to get out, that she was being held captive?
1540
1 MR. DANDAR: Objection. That is work product.
2 That has not been waived.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry?
5 THE COURT: I said sustained.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Did you ever see any evidence that -- outside of
8 working with Mr. Dandar, that Lisa McPherson wanted to leave
9 Scientology, to your recollection?
10 A Not to my recollection.
11 Q Did Mr. Dandar ever show you a transcript of a
12 Fannie McPherson conversation, a taped conversation, that he
13 took of Fannie McPherson?
14 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Work product.
15 MR. FUGATE: Well, it's been posted on the
16 Internet.
17 THE COURT: Has it?
18 MR. FUGATE: I think there is a Mr. Minton
19 posting about it, he saw it, heard it. That is why
20 he wanted to fund --
21 THE COURT: Then overruled. As far as the
22 document itself, if it has been posted, then it is
23 certainly not work product.
24 MR. HERTZBERG: Judge Quesada found there was
25 no work product privilege --
1541
1 THE COURT: I could care less what Judge
2 Quesada has found. Please don't tell me what
3 another judge has found.
4 MR. WEINBERG: It wasn't a finding, but it's
5 part of this record.
6 THE COURT: Well, Lord have mercy, there has
7 been a jillion judges on this. And I can tell you,
8 if there is another one, they are not going to hear
9 what I found, either.
10 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to show you,
11 Judge, and the witness --
12 THE COURT: I have seen it so I know --
13 somehow, I think it's in this record already.
14 MR. FUGATE: It is.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q -- a copy of the transcript, and ask you if you
17 have seen that?
18 MR. FUGATE: And that would be 85, Madam Clerk?
19 THE CLERK: Yes.
20 MR. FUGATE: Did I give it to you, your Honor?
21 MR. DANDAR: Well, you know, there is a much
22 better copy of this transcript in the record. This
23 is half a page of the page on Page 1.
24 MR. FUGATE: Well, I have got -- this is the
25 one we got in discovery from -- or in the public
1542
1 records request from the Florida Department of Law
2 Enforcement.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q My question, really, is have you seen this before?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And were you aware of any other tape recording or
7 transcript of any conversation purportedly between
8 Mr. Dandar and Fannie McPherson other than this?
9 A Between Mr. Dandar and Fannie McPherson?
10 Q Yes. Other than this?
11 A No.
12 Q And in reading that, do you see anywhere in this
13 transcript where Fannie is relating that Lisa is leaving
14 Scientology?
15 A Mmm, no. I thought there was another friend of
16 Lisa's or somebody who had said something in a depo.
17 Q Regardless of whatever that is, my question is
18 this is the only -- or a better transcript, perhaps, but
19 this is the only transcript that you have ever seen that
20 purports to have any conversation between Mr. Dandar and
21 Fannie about Lisa McPherson leaving Scientology. Is that
22 correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And --
25 THE COURT: But you were aware of the
1543
1 deposition -- or the conversation between --
2 allegedly between Ms. McPherson and a friend of hers
3 in California?
4 THE WITNESS: Something.
5 THE COURT: And you saw that?
6 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I think I was told about it.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q And if I asked you, I'm being repetitious, but do
10 you see anything in here that says Fannie tells Mr. Dandar
11 that Lisa is leaving Scientology?
12 A Mmm, no.
13 MR. DANDAR: The document speaks for itself.
14 Maybe if you can read the first page.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, it is our
16 Exhibit 52 in the notebook that we filed, which is a
17 good copy.
18 THE COURT: I have seen a good copy and I have
19 seen this one, too.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Right. That one is Exhibit 51.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Or -- I don't know. Anyway,
23 Exhibit 52 is a good copy.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q You see, about three-quarters of the way down the
1544
1 page, where it says:
2 "Was she going to stay longer?"
3 "She was going to stay two weeks this time, over
4 Christmas."
5 A Yes.
6 Q And that would indicate she was returning back to
7 Clearwater after the holidays, as far as you can tell?
8 A Yes.
9 MR. LIROT: Objection. Speculation.
10 THE COURT: In that respect, the document
11 speaks for itself, counsel.
12 You seem to throw certain things at us, because
13 I know I have certain copies, I don't need the
14 extras, so I'll be happy to give this back, or throw
15 it out.
16 MR. FUGATE: You can leave it up there and I'll
17 collect it at the end.
18 THE COURT: It is going in the waste basket or
19 back to you right now.
20 MR. FUGATE: Throw it in the wastebasket.
21 THE COURT: Because I know I have at least two
22 or three copies of it.
23 MR. FUGATE: All right. Moving along.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Now, you say you knew Jesse Prince while he was in
1545
1 the Church of Scientology?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you know that he was in 1987 removed from his
4 position on RTC?
5 A I did know that.
6 Q And do you know who removed Jesse Prince?
7 A Only because of what Jesse Prince told me.
8 Q What did Jesse Prince tell you?
9 A He said that Mr. Miscavige removed him.
10 Q That Mr. Miscavige removed him from his post and
11 position at RTC?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And that was in 1987, as far as you understood?
14 A Mmm, yes.
15 Q And as far as you know, he never worked for RTC
16 again, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 THE COURT: I'm sorry, the date?
19 MR. FUGATE: 1987.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q And according to your postings and other
22 information, I believe it says that he left then in 1992, he
23 left Scientology?
24 A That is what he told me.
25 Q All right. And did you know what Mr. Prince's
1546
1 position was in the last five years that he was in
2 Scientology?
3 A Mmm, when I saw him, he was a driver of some kind.
4 Mmm, I don't know that he ever specified what his position
5 was.
6 Q Well, he was not a high level member of any
7 corporate structure entity, to your knowledge, in the last
8 five years, as far as you know, or he told you, correct?
9 A No. I knew that he wasn't in any high level
10 position.
11 Q He was not? And so when he purports to be the
12 number two man in Scientology when he left, that is not
13 accurate, is it?
14 A Well, that actually -- the story behind that
15 legend is -- it comes from a hearing that I actually
16 attended in Denver. And it was Mr. Rosen who misspoke
17 during a hearing when he called Mr. Prince that.
18 Q In other words, Mr. Rosen apparently anointed him
19 the number two man, and that wasn't true?
20 A Yes. Matter of fact, it was quite a humorous
21 story that went around.
22 Q Well, I'll have to talk to Mr. Rosen about that.
23 But from your personal knowledge, he was not at the time he
24 left. Correct?
25 A In fact, he never was.
1547
1 Q That's right. And are you aware, as you sit here
2 today, that Mr. Prince, in fact, personally bears a grudge
3 against David Miscavige for removing him?
4 A Oh, he bears a very large grudge against
5 Mr. Miscavige. Yes.
6 Q Now, with your two affidavits that you filed, part
7 of what they both are talking about, as I recall them, are
8 concerns about violations of orders relating to documents
9 that needed to be produced by LMT. Is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And is that part of what also created a concern
12 with you in terms of things that you had had to straighten
13 out -- or whatever your terms were -- with the courts, as
14 far as what was happening with the production of documents?
15 A That was the worst part for me.
16 Q In fact, were you aware, and I couldn't date it,
17 but within a week -- sometime within the week of your second
18 affidavit, that the special master was releasing a report on
19 his research or observations of what was and wasn't at the
20 LMT?
21 A Yes.
22 THE COURT: Do we have those documents yet?
23 MR. FUGATE: The master's report?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: No. The stuff from LMT?
1548
1 THE WITNESS: Mmm, the hard drives were turned
2 over, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: I'm talking about all of the things
4 that had been ordered by court order to be produced,
5 that is videotapes, that is documents, that is on
6 and on and on.
7 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, everything that --
8 everything that was at the LMT that was taken by Mr.
9 Keane, and I have reviewed it and released it, with
10 the exception of the privilege log, given to --
11 THE COURT: I'm not talking about that.
12 MR. McGOWAN: Okay.
13 THE COURT: I'm talking about that which this
14 witness indicated had been in the hallway and was
15 whisked away by her lawyer, and also that which she
16 told me on the very first day of this hearing that
17 she knew where it was, and I said, "Well, go get
18 it," or "keep it," or "don't lose it or get rid of
19 it."
20 MR. McGOWAN: That was hard drives which had
21 been turned over to the special master. That has
22 been turned over.
23 The items in the hall were the unedited
24 videotapes. And I have not -- I have yet to hear
25 from Mr. Merrett. He was to have called me on
1549
1 Monday. And I have not heard from Mr. Merrett.
2 THE COURT: So the answer is no, court orders
3 have not been fully complied with yet?
4 MR. McGOWAN: That is correct. The videotapes
5 remain outstanding.
6 THE COURT: So whatever the concern of this
7 witness, she still needs to be concerned because
8 there is a court order out there that has not been
9 obeyed.
10 MR. FUGATE: May I inquire?
11 THE COURT: Of course, obviously, if she
12 doesn't have them, she doesn't have them. But I
13 thought she told me on Monday she knew where certain
14 things were.
15 Are you telling me that whatever she knew where
16 it was, it has been turned over?
17 MR. McGOWAN: Whatever she knew where -- she
18 knew where the hard drives were. They had been
19 turned over.
20 THE COURT: Are you going to have Mr. Merrett
21 here for us to hear from as to whether or not he's
22 going to stand behind this statement or whatever?
23 MR. DANDAR: I have not been assured by him yet
24 that --
25 THE COURT: I'm sure not.
1550
1 MR. DANDAR: I have asked him and thought it
2 would be in his best interests to be here. And I
3 will ask him again. But he's beyond the power of
4 the subpoena, so --
5 THE COURT: Well, he may not be beyond the
6 power of the Court. If I determine that he's a
7 material witness, I believe I could probably do one
8 of those. I know I can get somebody from out of
9 state -- if I can get another judge to sign off on a
10 witness rendition, and surely if I can get somebody
11 in Montana to deliver somebody down here to me, I
12 ought to be able to get some judge I know pretty
13 well up there in Jacksonville to tell Mr. Merrett to
14 get himself down here.
15 MR. DANDAR: I think that would be an excellent
16 idea.
17 THE COURT: I think we all want them. Don't we
18 all?
19 MR. McGOWAN: Sure.
20 THE COURT: Do both sides agree with that?
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Then let's look into it.
24 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed?
25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Merrett, I think, is
1551
1 interesting. He wants to --
2 MR. FUGATE: I think he is, too.
3 THE COURT: -- talk over the telephone.
4 Perhaps we could chat with him in here over the
5 phone? That ain't going to happen.
6 MR. McGOWAN: If you asked him to bring the
7 tapes, if he has them, we would appreciate that.
8 THE COURT: I think the subpoena should be a
9 duces tecum, and tell him whatever he has that
10 belongs to LMT, he should produce them.
11 As I told you, I don't think he'll come in here
12 with a whole host of stuff. I just can't believe he
13 will.
14 MR. McGOWAN: I'll be very surprised.
15 THE COURT: I heard Ms. Brooks saying, maybe
16 naively, that he would.
17 MR. MOXON: As I mentioned yesterday, we don't
18 agree we have gotten all of the rest of the
19 material, either. And we'll address that --
20 THE COURT: Yes. But I do --
21 MR. FUGATE: Let me ask this --
22 THE COURT: But I do mean for the orders to be
23 complied with. Even though they weren't my orders,
24 they were orders entered in this case. And they
25 need to be obeyed.
1552
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Ms. Brooks, let me ask you this. You would like
3 Mr. Merrett to come in and explain some of these areas, as
4 well, would you not?
5 A Certainly.
6 Q Now, my questions were going to be this. You had
7 indicated earlier that Mr. Dandar had told you that Judge
8 Quesada was opening up a whole new area of discovery into
9 LMT, and that was part of the belief or the thought at the
10 time, that there was something corrupt going on.
11 Do you recall that comment being made? And I
12 can't even remember which day it was made by you.
13 A Sometime in the past.
14 Q Now, did Mr. Dandar inform you that it was
15 actually Judge Moody that had entered the original orders
16 ordering LMT -- sanctions against LMT -- let's start with
17 the order on May 15, 2000, an order to compel against LMT?
18 A Mmm, Mr. Fugate, I can't remember the details like
19 this. But I know that in my mind, Judge Moody was --
20 Q Let me show you --
21 A -- doing what Mr. Dandar wanted him to, and the
22 other judges weren't.
23 Q According to what Mr. Dandar was telling you?
24 Correct?
25 A Correct.
1553
1 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your
2 Honor?
3 THE COURT: You may.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q I show you a copy of an order that is dated -- if
6 you'll -- whoops, extra copies here -- if you'll flip to the
7 back and tell us the date of the order.
8 A May 15, 2000.
9 Q And also attached to that should be another order
10 directly related to you May 12, 2000. Correct?
11 A Mmm, yes.
12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would offer those
13 two orders consecutively. I think you have -- just
14 so the record is clear --
15 THE WITNESS: But if I could just say one
16 thing.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Uh-huh?
19 A I believe that Judge Moody was placing some
20 limitations on the discovery. And then all of the
21 limitations were taken off by Judge Quesada.
22 Q And I show you a May 23rd order, as well. These
23 orders were all issued by Judge Moody. Correct?
24 A Yes. I do remember this one. This was -- I
25 believe this was as a result of the very first time Mr.
1554
1 Merrett represented me in a hearing.
2 Q Okay. Hard to forget?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q And did Mr. Dandar inform you that the orders of
5 Judge Quesada were, in fact, orders that enforced Judge
6 Moody's original orders relating to LMT and you and the
7 discovery that needed to be produced?
8 A Mmm, I'm not sure I was aware of that. I
9 understood Judge Quesada issued new orders.
10 Q I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.
11 A I understood Judge Quesada had issued some new
12 orders.
13 THE COURT: Tell me why we're putting these in
14 the record.
15 MR. FUGATE: We don't need to, Judge.
16 THE COURT: They're obviously court documents.
17 They're part of your filing. As I said, I read them
18 and understood quite well what you were saying, that
19 is, that order after order was entered. And I have
20 done everything I can to say they need to be
21 complied with.
22 So I don't know that --
23 MR. FUGATE: We don't need to put them in.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q If I represent to you that Judge Quesada entered
1555
1 one, two, three, four, five orders enforcing Judge Moody's
2 original orders, and finally on February 8, 2001 --
3 THE COURT: Trying. Trying.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Trying to enforce, I should say.
6 THE COURT: Trying to enforce.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q -- you wouldn't quarrel with that, would you?
9 A No.
10 Q And, in fact --
11 THE COURT: It's this hostile court system of
12 ours. It takes eight orders for a judge to enter
13 suggesting someone do what the Court ordered them to
14 do.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q Do you recall being present at one hearing where
17 Judge Quesada was really exasperated and saying, "What am I
18 going to do to get you folks to comply with the orders that
19 had been entered over a year before"?
20 A I believe I was there.
21 Q So when Mr. Dandar said that it was Judge Quesada,
22 it was actually Judge Moody's orders that Judge Quesada was
23 enforcing. Correct?
24 A I guess that is correct.
25 Q And do you recall that Judge Schaeffer also became
1556
1 exasperated and indicated in some hearings that she wanted
2 the orders enforced, as well, Judge Moody's original orders,
3 without going through those?
4 A I believe Judge Schaeffer made that clear even
5 today.
6 Q And then do you recall at a point in time when
7 Judge Beach was appointed as a discovery judge to handle
8 discovery matters?
9 A I remember that.
10 Q And do you recall that Judge Beach, I think at a
11 proceeding you were present at, he found that LMT was
12 inextricably intertwined with the wrongful death defense,
13 and he was ordering the discovery to go forward, that you
14 needed to produce the documents you were being told to
15 produce?
16 A Actually, it was in the deposition of Mr. Minton.
17 And he said that he found that the wrongful death case,
18 Mr. Minton and the LMT, were inextricably --
19 THE COURT: Intertwined.
20 A -- intertwined.
21 THE COURT: That is a term of legal art.
22 Inexplicably -- I can't say it, either.
23 Inextricably.
24 MR. DANDAR: It is inextricably.
25
1557
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Inextricably?
3 A Inextricably, yes. I --
4 Q Would that have been the September 18 of
5 Mr. Minton -- depo of Mr. Minton? I'm sorry.
6 A It could have been. I was present for the
7 deposition, and I believe Judge Beach's comment had to do
8 with things that he was going to enforce on Mr. Minton and
9 the LMT.
10 Q I'm not going to make it part of the record. But
11 do you remember Mr. Moxon filed a motion to compel LMT to
12 return to deposition, for a finding of contempt and for
13 issuance of coercive sanctions to produce the records and
14 documents of LMT?
15 A Is that the one where he said I should be in jail
16 for -- every day until I did?
17 Q That is the motion. I'm going to ask you about
18 the order in a moment.
19 A I remember that part about the jail.
20 Q That part you remember, correct. And that would
21 be the order that was signed by Judge Beach on the 5th day
22 of September?
23 A That sounds accurate.
24 Q Well, I will ask you to take a look at that, too,
25 see if that refreshes your recollection.
1558
1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I argue all of this is
2 outside of the scope. This has nothing to do with
3 the estate or me.
4 THE COURT: I think the relevance of it,
5 though, counselor, there has been some suggestion as
6 to why this witness is testifying as she is. And
7 she has testified to threats and fear -- well, not
8 threats -- I guess the court orders are threats,
9 that --
10 A I felt threatened, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: -- that she was very concerned
12 about it.
13 And I think this is Mr. Fugate's attempt to
14 show she's not making this up. It is that --
15 MR. FUGATE: You are absolutely right.
16 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled.
17 A I do remember this one. But there was a worse
18 one. But --
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Well, in any event --
21 A -- but I do remember this one.
22 Q This is in September of 2001 when you indicated
23 somewhere in your testimony that you were very concerned
24 about your continued involvement. Is this the -- sort of
25 the atmosphere that was leading to that concern?
1559
1 A Yes. Definitely. And -- and I was beginning to
2 realize that -- that the attorneys weren't -- Mmm --
3 protecting me. I had thought -- I had thought that -- I had
4 thought that the attorneys would do something to make
5 everything okay.
6 THE COURT: Well now, really, I mean, I have
7 got to say something. When your lawyer is Mr.
8 Merrett, and you knew you were supposed to do
9 something, and he said, put it in the hallway and it
10 will go away, you, ma'am, could not have thought --
11 THE WITNESS: That was a little bit after that.
12 And I'm just saying that I was beginning to realize
13 -- I'm not saying -- what I'm saying, your Honor, is
14 that I was beginning to realize --
15 THE COURT: That isn't the kind of protection
16 you wanted, was it?
17 THE WITNESS: No. I was beginning to realize
18 that I was getting into serious trouble. That is
19 what I'm trying to say.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q Now, I think I remember Mr. Minton saying
22 something, at the end of the April 5th proceeding, to Judge
23 Schaeffer like, "I wasn't getting the best of advice, I
24 apologize," or something of that nature.
25 At the point in time that these orders were
1560
1 entered -- or this order was entered in September --
2 September 5, 2001 -- and I don't want to get into any legal
3 advice, but there were documents that were already
4 destroyed, were there not?
5 A Mmm, by this time, I believe we had already --
6 MR. McGOWAN: I would object to the form, just
7 so we're clear --
8 MR. FUGATE: I don't mean to imply --
9 MR. McGOWAN: -- documents under subpoena?
10 Documents subject to an order? Because she
11 testified a lot of documents were destroyed.
12 A I was already in trouble about evasion of
13 discovery.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Pardon me?
16 A I was already in trouble about evasion of
17 discovery.
18 THE COURT: Or violating court orders.
19 A Or -- and/or violating court orders.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q And part of the motion that had been brought that
22 prompted the order was you were talking about the video
23 cameras that had been trained on the LMT, I think in
24 response to some of Mr. Dandar's questions. And, of course,
25 there was no secret that the video cameras were trained on
1561
1 LMT, was there?
2 A No.
3 Q In fact, there was a big to-do about Mr. Minton
4 and Mr. Merrett climbing up there, trying to take it down or
5 something at one point?
6 A Yes. It was in the newspaper, I believe.
7 THE COURT: This is the church's video camera?
8 MR. FUGATE: I think it was dueling video
9 cameras. But there was a video camera that was
10 trained on the front of the -- or, I guess -- I
11 guess it's the front, I don't notice, front or
12 back --
13 THE WITNESS: Whatever.
14 MR. FUGATE: -- of the LMT.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q Were you aware one of the things that had
17 happened, after the motion had been filed, there were
18 actually videos taken by those surveillance cameras of boxes
19 of documents being taken out of the LMT and that is what
20 prompted the September 5, 2001 order not to destroy any more
21 records? You were are aware of that, were you not?
22 A Mmm, I was -- I was aware that -- I was aware
23 about the video cameras seeing the shredding truck come when
24 I was getting rid of the copyright stuff. But actually
25 whether I was aware of the boxes too, I don't remember.
1562
1 THE COURT: It wasn't Mr. Merrett, was it,
2 taking out boxes?
3 MR. FUGATE: I would like to have a picture of
4 that. But I don't think that I remember seeing one
5 like that, Judge.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q Let's kind of -- if I can, and I want to ask you,
9 can you kind of generically tell us what -- what types of
10 documents and records were removed? I mean, can you break
11 it down? You have indicated video -- videotapes. Is that
12 correct?
13 A Yes. But there were -- well, videotapes --
14 Q I'm just asking for categories.
15 A The videotapes I covered in my affidavit.
16 The hard drives I covered in my affidavit.
17 Q How about audio tapes, as well?
18 A Mmm, I don't know if there were any audio tapes
19 included in the unedited tapes. I don't really know.
20 Q And the computerized information, that category
21 was hard drives and disks. Correct?
22 A Mmm --
23 Q CDs, I think. I'm not really too literate in
24 computers, myself. But I believe they are CDs.
25 A I believe there was some confusion about that by
1563
1 the special master, if those are the ones you are talking
2 about.
3 Q I'm talking about the report that there is a large
4 number of computer CDs that are --
5 A Right.
6 Q -- are missing that he saw, and then the next day
7 they were gone?
8 A Right. Right. I looked into that. And to the
9 best of my knowledge, I believe that was -- if there were a
10 lot of CDs the first time he was there, and then they were
11 gone, they were blank. I don't know who took them, but --
12 but I -- I don't know of any CDs with any information on
13 them that were -- I mean, I wasn't aware of any.
14 Q What you are saying is you don't have any personal
15 knowledge of --
16 A I don't know about that.
17 Q -- what CDs were taken out?
18 A Right.
19 THE COURT: She doesn't know if there were any?
20 A And I looked into it. I mean, I tried to check.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Well, let's back up and talk about the videos, if
23 we can. There were videotapes and a lot of videotapes of
24 witnesses in the -- in the Lisa McPherson case that were at
25 the LMT, were there not?
1564
1 A Well --
2 THE COURT: Are these -- there is a difference
3 in the witnesses. What I understood she was talking
4 about earlier, when she talked about this at some
5 length, talking about Scientology --
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 THE COURT: -- and witnesses talking about
8 their knowledge, if any, of the Lisa McPherson case.
9 I have not heard one word that there were
10 witnesses or videotapes about people speaking of
11 their knowledge of the Lisa McPherson wrongful death
12 case.
13 MR. FUGATE: Let me see if I can --
14 THE COURT: So -- so if that is the case,
15 then -- they talked a great deal about them. But if
16 it is these tapes that were going to reveal -- I
17 remember some people sitting around the table and
18 everybody talking about the Church and this and the
19 other thing.
20 And unless it involves Lisa McPherson, it's a
21 violation of an order that might need to be complied
22 with, but you don't need to get into such detail
23 with it.
24 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to move through this,
25 Judge.
1565
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q There were videotapes of Jesse Prince taken --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- over all of the period of the time the LMT was
6 in existence up until September 5 of 2001. Correct?
7 A There were videotapes of Jesse Prince, yes.
8 Q And Peter Alexander?
9 A Yes.
10 THE COURT: Is he a witness here?
11 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
12 THE COURT: He is?
13 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
14 THE COURT: What is he a witness -- what is he
15 for?
16 MR. DANDAR: He's a witness in this hearing.
17 He's also a witness in the case.
18 THE COURT: Oh. Okay.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Maria Piagardini (phonetic)? A video of her?
21 A Yes.
22 Q A -- videos of her?
23 A Well --
24 Q She was listed as a witness in the case, as well,
25 right?
1566
1 A That I don't know.
2 Q Teresa Summers?
3 A Yes.
4 Q You already indicated there were 15 to 20 videos
5 of Ken Dandar doing something?
6 THE COURT: There were videos of Ken Dandar
7 that were ordered by a judge to be turned over?
8 MR. FUGATE: No.
9 THE COURT: Because if there is, we're going to
10 have to have another hearing on that. That cannot
11 happen.
12 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think if I would
13 clarify.
14 I think my testimony was that there were
15 perhaps 15 to 20 video -- there was some 15 to 20
16 videotapes in which Mr. Dandar appeared. There
17 weren't tapes of him.
18 THE COURT: Of him discussing the case or
19 anything like that?
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 THE COURT: I mean, it can happen but it surely
22 would have to be looked at in camera by a judge to
23 show it would have some privilege.
24 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to show you in a
25 moment --
1567
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q At any rate, you had a full-time videographer at
4 LMT, that was Mark Bunker, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And, Mr. Bunker, one of the things he did, was
7 compile videos of all sorts of things that he edited into
8 video presentations. Correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q In fact, he would do some and give them to the
11 Clearwater city government, or the police department, or
12 what have you, and it would have clips of maybe Dell
13 Liebreich, or clips about how bad the Lisa McPherson case
14 was, or how bad LMT people were being treated or things of
15 that nature. Correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And then there were -- there were -- well, let me
18 ask you this. Do you have any idea -- I think at one point
19 I remember you saying there were probably hundreds of hours
20 of such videos, videos of all sorts of things that occurred
21 during that period of time?
22 A I believe that is the case.
23 Q As you sit here today, you couldn't tell me or the
24 Judge what exactly was on all of them. Correct?
25 A I couldn't really.
1568
1 Q And we don't have them, they're gone?
2 A Yes.
3 THE COURT: Is there anybody on any of those
4 tapes that was present when Lisa McPherson was in
5 the hotel during this episode?
6 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: So whoever they are, they're people
8 discussing their thought processes or what have you
9 about what must have happened?
10 THE WITNESS: If they were even doing that.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: They were discussing -- there
13 were a lot of people discussing Scientology. And
14 that was part of the order.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Well, on the hard drive issue, do you recall -- I
18 think it's Plaintiff's Exhibit 15B, which is -- and I'll
19 show you a copy of it, the Teresa Summers letter?
20 A Oh, I remember that.
21 THE COURT: I remember reading it.
22 MR. FUGATE: All right.
23 THE COURT: I don't need another copy of it, I
24 don't think. We'll see where you are going.
25 MR. FUGATE: Otherwise, Judge, I'll check the
1569
1 trash can, because I think it has already been
2 produced to you.
3 THE COURT: I think it has.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q If you flip over to the second page, the paragraph
6 enumerated Number 3, I'll read to you: "Before I left the
7 office Thursday --"
8 A I'm sorry, excuse me, I'm sorry, where are you
9 reading from?
10 Q On the second page, a letter from Teresa
11 Summers --
12 A Okay.
13 Q -- to you dated September 7 --
14 A Yes, I see it.
15 Q "Before I left the office Thursday, you called me
16 and suggested that I might make the file containing the
17 Quirino report accessible only to me. You instructed me to
18 telephone Bob, after checking with John Merrett, and tell
19 him to install a password that only I knew so that he no
20 longer could access the file."
21 I don't know who "he" is. Is that Mr. Merrett?
22 Or Mr. Minton?
23 A Mmm, I --
24 THE COURT: She doesn't know because she didn't
25 write it.
1570
1 A The whole thing is so inaccurate.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q Well, there was a Quirino report at the LMT,
4 correct?
5 A There was a Quirino report on her computer.
6 Q And you were aware, were you not --
7 A Well, excuse me --
8 Q I'm sorry?
9 A There was an E-Mail that -- well, this is wrong.
10 What she said is wrong.
11 Q Well, I'm going to ask you the question, though.
12 There was a Quirino report that was at the LMT.
13 Right?
14 A There was an E-Mail from someone to Teresa Summers
15 talking about this person Quirino in some way.
16 Q And there was a complaint made against Marcus
17 Quirino with Child Protective Services, wasn't there?
18 A To my knowledge, what happened was Ms. Summers
19 forwarded the E-Mail to someone, perhaps at Child Protective
20 Services.
21 Q In law enforcement?
22 A If Child Protective Services is part of law
23 enforcement.
24 Q Whatever it is, to Child Protective Services?
25 A She did forward it to someone official.
1571
1 Q And Marcus Quirino is a witness in this case, is
2 he not?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And --
5 THE COURT: Who is he? What does he know?
6 MR. FUGATE: He's a member of the Church of
7 Scientology. And he compiled a report that was
8 provided to Mr. Dandar and to the State which
9 compiles a series of reports from caregivers.
10 THE COURT: From whom?
11 MR. FUGATE: Caregivers.
12 THE COURT: Caregivers? Okay. He's a witness,
13 therefore, for whom?
14 MR. FUGATE: He would be -- I suppose you would
15 say a Church witness. He was a Church staff member.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q But, at any rate, there was a complaint filed with
18 Child Protective Services --
19 A As I said, I'm not sure there was a complaint
20 filed. I believe what happened was that that E-Mail from
21 that person was forwarded to them.
22 Q And whatever was at LMT is being passworded here,
23 according to Teresa Summers. Is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And were the hard drives -- to your knowledge,
1572
1 were they scrambled in any way, if you know, to prevent
2 others from, you know, being able to recover the data that
3 was on the hard drives?
4 A Mmm, I'm not -- I don't know of any hard drive
5 that was generally scrambled, no.
6 Q Well, have you seen the report of the special
7 master?
8 A I haven't.
9 Q Okay. How many computers were there at the LMT
10 when you closed down in September or thereabouts of 2001?
11 A Mmm, I couldn't give you an exact figure. But
12 there could have been as many as 10 or less.
13 Q And if the special master reports that hard drives
14 have been removed from 5 of them, would that be accurate?
15 A At least that many. I thought it was more.
16 Q And if the master's report indicates hard drives
17 had been scrambled and hundreds and thousands of files been
18 deleted, would you quarrel with that?
19 A I wasn't aware that had happened. I thought they
20 just had been removed. But I wouldn't quarrel with them.
21 Q Now, that would mean that the E-Mails that were
22 being generated during the pendency or life of the Lisa
23 McPherson Trust would have been destroyed. Correct?
24 A Well, what I thought had happened was the hard
25 drives had been removed but kept intact, in which case
1573
1 whatever was on those computers when the special master got
2 them back, they would have been able to see whatever it was.
3 I wasn't aware, and I think I would have been, but --
4 Q Well, the E-Mail traffic -- and I know -- I would
5 assume you can't possibly know what all of the E-Mail
6 traffic was from ten computers. Is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q But using the computers during that period of time
9 would have been Jesse Prince, yourself, Bob Minton.
10 Would Mr. Dandar use the computers over at the LMT
11 when he was there?
12 A Mmm, he might have used it only a few times.
13 Q And I think I have seen some postings by
14 Mr. Minton where he indicates that he's communicated with
15 Mr. Dandar and he's communicated with Dell Liebreich via
16 E-Mail. Correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And so E-Mails like that would be --
19 THE COURT: I thought Mr. Minton said he had
20 communicated one time, maybe, with Ms. Liebreich.
21 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'll let him testify to
22 that.
23 THE COURT: Yes. So, I mean, we just can't
24 have a record here that is like this, counselor.
25 MR. FUGATE: I'm just asking.
1574
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Mr. --
3 THE COURT: I mean, she doesn't know what she
4 doesn't know.
5 MR. FUGATE: All right.
6 THE COURT: And that is just as simple as it
7 can be. She can't tell you what is on those
8 E-Mails, except the ones she wrote or the ones she
9 saw.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q Well, in addition to whatever E-Mails were
12 destroyed, there were paper documents that had been created
13 at the LMT that had also been destroyed. Correct?
14 A Mmm, yes.
15 Q And there were paper documents removed, as well.
16 Correct?
17 MR. McGOWAN: Again, your Honor, just as to the
18 form of the question, I object. I think she
19 testified there was a policy at some point to
20 destroy --
21 THE COURT: Shred them all. I know. So if
22 that is his question, it would have no bearing on
23 this case. So -- so if you don't mind, let him ask
24 his questions.
25 A Mmm, I'm not sure what kind of documents you are
1575
1 referring to there.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q Well, if there are videos of boxes of documents
4 being taken out during the pendency of the time from when
5 the motion --
6 A Oh, I see --
7 Q -- was filed, until the September 5 order was
8 entered, do you know what was in those boxes or --
9 A I see what you mean.
10 Mmm, I -- I can tell you what I -- I can tell you
11 what I think that was. There was a large number of boxes
12 which I think was reported to the special master that had
13 nothing to do with the Lisa McPherson case but was part of a
14 library.
15 And Mr. Minton may correct this, and I'm sure he
16 will if I'm wrong, but I believe that those boxes had to do
17 with the library and -- and that we felt it was okay to
18 remove those boxes because they really had nothing to do
19 with any court order.
20 Q Well, did you remove them, or did somebody else
21 remove the boxes of documents?
22 A Well, I can't remember --
23 Q Okay.
24 A -- who did.
25 THE COURT: Counsel, you are saying they were
1576
1 library materials. So when he's saying documents,
2 you are saying library materials. Are you talking
3 about books and pamphlets and things on, what? On
4 the Church of Scientology? Or --
5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what I'm talking
6 about, this library -- what I call a library --
7 consisted of books and periodicals, and also
8 documents like reports.
9 THE COURT: Now, what kind of documents were
10 they?
11 THE WITNESS: Well, reports from people.
12 Copies of Scientology directives of various kinds.
13 Mmm, letters from people. Press about Scientology.
14 It was just a collection of all kinds of
15 different information about Scientology that had
16 been collected over the years. All different kinds
17 of things.
18 And -- and I don't mean to be evasive here, but
19 I'm actually not sure what those boxes were that you
20 got on that video camera.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Let me see if I can focus you back then. There
23 was an okay to remove the library documents. And that came
24 in December of 2001. Correct?
25 A Okay. Well --
1577
1 Q Correct?
2 A I have to rely on you for that.
3 THE COURT: That really isn't appropriate.
4 She's your witness. You really ought not to be
5 leading her. Let her testify and have her say --
6 this is really pathetic. I don't know, but I'll
7 rely on you, counselor, when you are putting her up,
8 as a lawyer, for somebody she wants to make an
9 arrangement with. I just can't have that.
10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, let me make this clear.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q I was trying to focus your attention, as I said,
13 in my question, on the period of time from the filing of the
14 motion to the September 5, 2001 order by Judge Beach --
15 A Okay. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult
16 here.
17 Q I know. But all I'm asking --
18 A But I don't really know.
19 THE COURT: Did you hear that? She doesn't
20 really know.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q And the special master's report was coming out
23 whether or not you filed any affidavits, is that correct, as
24 far as you know?
25 A Yes.
1578
1 Q And whatever it says, it says. Correct?
2 A Yes. But as I said, I haven't seen it.
3 Q But you knew, before you came in to file those
4 affidavits, that there was going to be a report talking
5 about document destruction at the LMT?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q And it was going to focus on you. Correct?
8 A I thought that is what would happen.
9 Q Now, remember when we were talking about the Jesse
10 Prince affidavit concerning end of cycle, and you indicated
11 to Mr. Dandar that was sort of over the top, as far as you
12 thought, couldn't be substantiated?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Let me show you a couple of videos. Do we have
15 them keyed up to go. Let me show you --
16 MR. FUGATE: The first one.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Let me show you -- well, a video clip turned over
19 by Mr. Dandar.
20 A Will it be over there?
21 Q On this television.
22 A Can I go over there a little bit?
23 MR. FUGATE: If it is all right with the Court.
24 THE COURT: It is all right with me if she
25 can't see it from over there.
1579
1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can't see very
2 well.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q This is a video clip supplied -- produced by
6 Mr. Dandar when he purported to represent the LMT of an
7 unedited video from the LMT -- excuse me, edited video clip
8 from February of 1999.
9 And this was the only section of the video that
10 was produced by Mr. Dandar. I'll ask you to take a look at
11 that.
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'll object.
13 ___________________________________
14 (WHEREUPON, the video was played. Because of
15 the quality of the video, speaker identification is
16 not possible by the court reporter.)
17 You know, we could sort of go back to that, go
18 back to that feeling of death -- of looking forward
19 to death in some way.
20 Well, in fact, that's one thing you can do is
21 you --
22 (Inaudible.)
23 -- you can repeat again. Remembering what we
24 spoke about, yeah, let's see, isn't it -- yeah --
25 isn't it time we got beyond reason on that --
1580
1 You can make some commentary --
2 -- remembering about why you left?
3 What?
4 (Inaudible.)
5 I don't think so.
6 Hey, if you want to yourself, just go out and
7 go and take a look at a few Scientologists that work
8 in the orgs, look at their ashen fucking face, you
9 know, when they're not putting on that mask.
10 Look at John Carmichael sitting here in the
11 audience.
12 Yeah, look at these pathetic bastards.
13 (Inaudible.)
14 Yeah.
15 Looking forward to every minute.
16 Yeah, look at John Carmichael.
17 He doesn't even smoke.
18 Look at Maureen (inaudible.) You want to see
19 what it looks like to be a Scientologist?
20 Right.
21 That is what it looks like.
22 Look at those shining, smiling, happy faces
23 that they're going to put on for you.
24 Right.
25 Remember -- remember what my friend said he
1581
1 discussed in the RPF. He was looking forward to
2 dying.
3 Waiting to die.
4 Right. That's right.
5 And when he came back, which he knew he was
6 going to do because of Scientology reincarnation.
7 He was going --
8 To make a person like that --
9 Yeah.
10 Because they might reward him.
11 Yeah.
12 You may even want to tie it in with
13 Scientology's great practice, end of cycle, when
14 they just fucking kill themselves.
15 No. No. No. No.
16 No. No. No. No. But --
17 No, Jesse. You don't know shit about that,
18 man.
19 But, you know, I'm gonna stay away --
20 Who --
21 When I come back -- when I'm here to stay.
22 Who do you know?
23 Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, you could
24 put --
25 When did you ever hear that?
1582
1 Me? Many times.
2 (Inaudible.)
3 Stacy, Stacy, listen. Listen to me.
4 What? Tell me what you know.
5 Stacy. Jesse. Jesse, wait a minute. Wait --
6 People being ordered to kill themselves.
7 What are you talking about?
8 Yeah, but listen, Jesse, Jesse, but listen,
9 John, Carmichael --
10 They had conversation right there. They have,
11 they're going to have their own conversation about
12 this one day.
13 They're going to be playing tic tac toe.
14 Right. They're going -- they're going to be
15 talking about how long they're going to stay away
16 from Scientology after they die before they come
17 back, and what they're gonna have a chance to
18 experience in life, and whether they want to go out
19 and kill themselves in a race car so they don't
20 actually have to go back and work for Scientology
21 again without -- without another -- without another
22 break of 20-plus years.
23 I like that. I think that'd be good. I think
24 that'd be powerful.
25 I think it's a great idea.
1583
1 Talking about -- talking about llamas ready to
2 jump off the fucking cliff, man.
3 No, lemmings.
4 Yeah, them, too.
5 (WHEREUPON, this concludes the playing of the
6 videotape.)
7 MR. DANDAR: Judge, for the record, unless they
8 show me something, I did not represent LMT when
9 these tapes were produced.
10 MR. FUGATE: We can produce that for you.
11 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I absolutely object to
12 that. Mr. Dandar was there when that tape was
13 produced. It was produced at one of the hearings.
14 This was a composite tape produced at one of the
15 hearings -- depositions of LMT by -- over at Wally
16 Pope's office when we had the deposition --
17 MR. DANDAR: I didn't represent them, so they
18 can say whatever they want to. But unless they show
19 something in the filing, what they did is simply
20 hand me tapes I said the judge ordered for them to
21 produce. I only represented the estate. Then Dan
22 Leipold represented the LMT in the first deposition.
23 THE COURT: I don't know what the purpose. I
24 think he was going to ask her questions about end
25 cycle, so I don't even know why this is going on, to
1584
1 tell you the truth.
2 THE WITNESS: Is that -- is there another one?
3 MR. FUGATE: No. I'm going to ask you some
4 questions about that one first.
5 THE COURT: And my poor court reporter could
6 not possibly have taken down that conversation. So
7 this record should be very clear that --
8 MR. FUGATE: I have a transcript we prepared
9 that we'll offer as one we prepared, and is --
10 THE COURT: Actually, just give it to the court
11 reporter and then let her review that tape and look
12 at that, because if you are going to play a tape,
13 she really should have it on the record. And if
14 that -- if that is accurate, then she can actually
15 transcribe it.
16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. That is exactly what I would
17 recommend, the court reporter to listen to the tape.
18 THE COURT: But, Madam Court Reporter, you have
19 to look at that transcript and see, after you watch
20 that tape, if that looks correct. You can't
21 substitute that. You know what you need to do. I
22 don't need to give you instructions about that.
23 THE REPORTER: Yes.
24 MR. FUGATE: I am only offering it for
25 convenient's sake.
1585
1 THE COURT: Yes, I understand that. And I
2 appreciate it. And I have no reason to doubt the
3 accuracy of the transcript. I'm just reminding the
4 court reporter, under the new rules -- I guess they
5 are not so new anymore -- that the District Court
6 and the Supreme Court says they want it transcribed.
7 And so she's going to have to either review
8 that tape as many times as it takes, or review the
9 tape along with your transcript, and assuming it is
10 correct, she can -- I will allow her to use the
11 transcript to transpose into the record.
12 MR. FUGATE: Let me, if I can, then ask some
13 questions so we can identify this for the record.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Ms. Brooks, do you --
16 THE COURT: Could I see the copy of the
17 transcript?
18 MR. FUGATE: Oh, yes.
19 THE COURT: Do you have an extra copy?
20 MR. FUGATE: I have an extra copy, Judge.
21 THE COURT: Thanks.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Do you -- excuse me. Pardon me. I had my back to
24 you.
25 Do you recall where the video was taken?
1586
1 A I believe this was at a Cult Info conference,
2 which is the name of an anti-cult organization. That would
3 probably have been in the beginning of '99, I think. I
4 think. I'm pretty sure, actually.
5 Q I think it was represented as being December 4 of
6 1999. Would that be --
7 A December 4 of '99?
8 Q I'm sorry, I'm wrong about that. February of
9 1999. Excuse me.
10 A Yeah.
11 Q I'm skipping my videos here.
12 Who is depicted in the video?
13 A Mmm, there was Grady Ward, Bob Minton, myself,
14 Jesse Prince, and I heard the voice of Justine Janette.
15 Q Who?
16 A Justine Janette.
17 Q Who was videoing the proceeding?
18 A Mark Bunker.
19 Q So that would be sort of the type of videos that
20 were at the LMT, things like that?
21 A I would say probably so. Yeah. Some others like
22 that.
23 Q The principal folks that I am concerned about --
24 did you see Jesse Prince in the video?
25 A Yes, sir.
1587
1 Q Did you see yourself in the video?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you hear Jesse Prince talking about let's talk
4 about end of cycle?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And what did you hear yourself say about that?
7 A I said, if I might say it a little more
8 eloquently, I said, "Jesse, I don't think you know anything
9 about that," or, "What are you talking about?"
10 Q And when you said to Mr. Dandar, the day before
11 yesterday, he was over the top and couldn't substantiate it,
12 is that what you meant? I mean, that --
13 A Yes. I mean, Jesse and I both know that end of
14 cycle is not an order for a person to kill themselves. End
15 of cycle is -- the only thing I know about it, and I never
16 heard Jesse say he knew anything else about any other kind,
17 was as an assist for someone who is dying.
18 Q Now, let me show you another video, and this video
19 is from -- I had it correct this time, Judge -- December 4,
20 1999.
21 MR. FUGATE: Before it is played, it's a video
22 of Mr. Dandar, Judge. And he's addressing what I
23 understand is a group of critics and picketers on
24 December 4, 1999 before a December 5 vigil.
25 And I want to ask you -- so I don't think we
1588
1 can consider that to be a work product video.
2 THE COURT: I don't think so.
3 MR. WEINBERG: The media is there.
4 MR. FUGATE: I'll show it. Excuse me, hang on
5 a second. Do you need to step down to look at it?
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 ______________________________________
8 (WHEREUPON, the videotape was played. The
9 speaker, who is known to the Court Reporter, is Mr.
10 Kennan Dandar.)
11 I'm here to talk about the murder of Lisa
12 McPherson by a cult known as the Church of
13 Scientology.
14 I am not a solo practitioner. I practice with
15 my brother, and that is why we call it Dandar &
16 Dandar.
17 (Video stopped momentarily.)
18 MR. FUGATE: We edited this, Judge.
19 _____________________________________
20 (Playing of the video continued.)
21 Jesse Prince. Another hero. A former
22 Scientologist. Former number two expert in the
23 world on the tech of Scientology. Got up the
24 courage and came out to talk about Scientology in
25 the summer of '98 when he graciously agreed to serve
1589
1 as a consultant and expert in the Lisa McPherson
2 case.
3 His bravery continued to rise when he finally
4 disclosed in an affidavit his experience in
5 Scientology and his eyewitness testimony of orders
6 being issued by David Miscavige, to a Scientologist
7 dying of cancer and other diseases, when the
8 Scientology tech wasn't curing him, orders written
9 to say end cycle.
10 I said, "Oh, come on, Jesse. I mean, show me
11 something in Scientology that says end cycle."
12 He opens up a Scientology dictionary. There is
13 the word, "end cycle," meaning to die. Die.
14 (WHEREUPON, this concludes the playing of the
15 videotape.)
16 THE WITNESS: Is that it?
17 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Madam Court Reporter, did you do
19 that one all right?
20 THE REPORTER: Yes.
21 THE COURT: That one seemed a little slower and
22 it didn't have a lot of interaction.
23 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Cross talk.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Were you present at that media critic speech or
1590
1 whatever it was?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Was the media present, in fact, at that?
4 A The media?
5 Q Media.
6 A Mmm, I don't recall if there was any media there
7 or not.
8 Q Well, did you note one of the microphones had a
9 channel, I don't read it --
10 A Oh, yeah. That must have been media. I don't
11 know if that was a TV or radio.
12 Q And that was the night before a vigil was set
13 in -- a Lisa McPherson vigil was set in Clearwater?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And the folks there, am I accurately describing
16 them as critics and picketers?
17 A Yes, for the most part.
18 Q Now, I'm going to hand you the "Dianetics and
19 Scientology Technical Dictionary." I have two marks there.
20 The first one is the copyright date.
21 Would you look at that.
22 A Okay.
23 Q What does it say?
24 A From the top? Or just the copyright?
25 Q No, what date is that edition? I'm sorry.
1591
1 A 1989. It says it has been reprinted.
2 Q Okay. And would you flip over to Page -- I think
3 it's -- 139.
4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what is this? Is this a
5 regular dictionary?
6 MR. FUGATE: This is the dictionary that
7 Mr. Dandar was referring to in the video.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: I object. There is no such
10 predicate for that. This is a 1989 edition.
11 THE COURT: Well, in any event, I don't know
12 whether that is the dictionary he was referring to.
13 What is it, a Scientology dictionary? Is there a
14 separate dictionary.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 MR. FUGATE: Yes. I'll be glad to bring in the
17 latest one.
18 MR. MOXON: That is the latest one, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q Would you look at Page 139. I have it marked.
22 And do you find end of cycle there?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And does end of cycle say: "Means to die or order
25 someone to die"?
1592
1 THE COURT: Why don't we just have her read it
2 to us and tell us what it says.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q What does it say?
5 A It doesn't say that.
6 THE COURT: Good, Mr. Fugate.
7 MR. FUGATE: I'm getting there, Judge.
8 A It says: "A finite stop."
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Does it say anything at all about ordering --
11 THE COURT: Stop a second. Stop, S-T-O-P?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: "A finite stop"?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, "A finite stop."
15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Go ahead, Mr. Fugate.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q There is nothing there that says ordering to die
18 or to die. Is there?
19 A No, Mr. Fugate. As I told you, or somebody,
20 lately, that was asking me questions, it was Steve Fishman
21 who first defined end of cycle as meaning to tell somebody
22 to die.
23 Q Okay. And that was what you have described, I
24 think, as a fabricated scenario, to --
25 A Yes.
1593
1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what?
2 MR. FUGATE: End of cycle meaning ordering
3 someone to die.
4 THE COURT: What did she define as a fabricated
5 what?
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what I was referring
7 to is the first time that I ever saw end of cycle
8 defined as ordering someone to die was when I read
9 Steve Fishman's book, "Lonesome Squirrel."
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: But I also want to remind the
12 Court about the assist context, that I also believe
13 I recall having seen that term, end of cycle, when
14 it's a hospice situation. And that is the only
15 context that I have ever seen that phrase in.
16 THE COURT: As I recall, I could be very wrong
17 about this, and if so, I apologize. An assist can
18 be for all kinds of things.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. If you have a cold or if
20 you have hurt your finger or if you had a broken
21 leg.
22 THE COURT: Right. So when someone hears the
23 word "assist," they don't -- it is not necessarily
24 assisting someone to die. It can be an assist that
25 would be -- that would be kind of an unusual assist.
1594
1 THE WITNESS: That would be a very unusual
2 assist.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q Well, when you referred to the way Jesse Prince
5 defined end of cycle in his affidavit in support of the
6 fifth amended complaint in this case, that is what you were
7 saying was over the top and not accurate?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, let's talk about the isolation watch that you
10 and Jesse Prince were on that Mr. Dandar brought up today.
11 Can we do that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q I think he showed you a posting which was
14 Plaintiff's Exhibit 35. And he read: "But here is what I
15 have to say to you, DM. Jesse and I are both going to
16 testify on the Lisa McPherson trial. We did isolation
17 watches together."
18 Were there watches, or just the one?
19 A There was just one -- there was just one person.
20 Q Okay. So it says plural but it's the one. So
21 we're clear we're talking about the same one? I think you
22 said Teresa or somebody?
23 A Yes. If I used plural, it was only meaning within
24 that context of that one person.
25 Q "Remember? Remember, Teresa, DM? Remember how
1595
1 you were overseeing her handling on a daily basis, you and
2 Ray, to make sure she didn't become a PR flack?"
3 Do you remember you read that part of the posting?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Well, I think you have already indicated that
6 isn't accurate in the sense there was no reporting to David
7 Miscavige in that scenario at all.
8 A I had no knowledge of anything being reported to
9 him. I was saying that in that post suggesting the most
10 negative scenario.
11 Q And the affidavit I'm going to hand you up to look
12 at, make sure we're on the same one, is the affidavit that
13 was placed into this case by Mr. Dandar, but it was an
14 affidavit of yours from the Steve Fishman and Uwe Geertz
15 case. Is that correct?
16 A Uwe.
17 Q Uwe. I'm sorry. I'm not very debonair with my
18 names.
19 MR. FUGATE: I don't know if you need a copy,
20 Judge.
21 THE COURT: I don't, either.
22 MR. DANDAR: Is there an exhibit number?
23 MR. FUGATE: It is your exhibit to the motion
24 to add parties in punitive damages.
25 MR. DANDAR: The date?
1596
1 THE COURT: This is executed the 3rd of
2 January, 1994 in that case that was just identified
3 by Mr. Fugate.
4 But I believe this was the one that was
5 added -- was in the motion to add parties.
6 MR. FUGATE: And it was also the one supplied
7 with the August 20, 1999 Jesse Prince affidavit.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q Correct?
10 A Mmm, I'm sorry, could you say that again?
11 Q Yes. I'm sorry. I saw you were reading.
12 This affidavit that was attached by Mr. Dandar to
13 the motion to add parties was also delivered to the Court
14 with the August 20 affidavit -- August 20, 1999 affidavit of
15 Jesse Prince. Correct?
16 THE COURT: If she knows that. I'm not sure
17 that is accurate, because this looks like it says
18 what -- what Mr. Dandar provided to me is notice of
19 filing affidavits and other documents in support of
20 plaintiff's motion to add parties.
21 Then it says -- gives notice of filing of the
22 recently obtained affidavit. And I did not notice
23 that Mr. -- that Mr. Prince's affidavit was one of
24 them. So I assume his was filed, and then these
25 were filed afterwards.
1597
1 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
2 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know. Maybe it
3 was, but --
4 MR. FUGATE: So we're on the same page and
5 line.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q If you would look at -- at your affidavit of
9 January of 1994, and the affidavit that I just handed you a
10 copy of Jesse Prince which is dated August 20, 1999, these
11 are the two affidavits I'm going to ask you questions about.
12 A Okay.
13 Q And you --
14 THE COURT: Am I right, can somebody tell me
15 that? Because I did not find Mr. Prince's affidavit
16 in this -- in this -- this is, what, Mr. -- what
17 Mr. Dandar brought me?
18 MR. DANDAR: You are correct.
19 THE COURT: I mean, I have got Mr. Prince's
20 affidavit because you-all supplied it to me.
21 MR. WEINBERG: It was attached to the motion,
22 though, I believe. The Prince affidavit was
23 attached to the original motion. Then he filed --
24 THE COURT: These are additional?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. So they all supported
1598
1 the motion to add parties.
2 THE COURT: I understand.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q If you would flip over to Page 22 of your
5 affidavit, starting at Paragraph 64 through 69, take a
6 moment to read that.
7 A Through 69?
8 Q Uh-huh.
9 THE COURT: Is that a yes, Mr. Fugate?
10 MR. FUGATE: Yes. I'm sorry. It is a yes.
11 Correct.
12 Judge, if you'll bear with me, I'm nearly
13 finished.
14 THE COURT: Good. And then I certainly will
15 bear with you. You have gotten through this rather
16 quickly.
17 MR. FUGATE: Thank you.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Did you say through
19 Paragraph 69?
20 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Then I would ask you --
23 MR. FUGATE: And I know this will take a
24 moment, your Honor, but I think it will speed things
25 up.
1599
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q If you would look at Mr. Prince's affidavit and
4 read Paragraphs 27 through 31, I'm going to ask you
5 questions about your 64 through 69 and his 27 through 31.
6 Tell me when you are done.
7 THE COURT: Through what paragraph, counselor?
8 MR. FUGATE: 31. 27 through 31.
9 A Okay.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q Now, do those paragraphs from each affidavit
12 describe -- and I know it took a while to read it -- the
13 same isolation watch that you and Mr. Prince participated
14 in?
15 A I believe so.
16 Q And that is the only isolation watch that you and
17 Jesse Prince participated in, according to both your
18 affidavits. Correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q In Paragraph 66 of your affidavit, you describe
21 the first step that you had was to isolate the person
22 completely from everyone else.
23 A Correct.
24 Q Is that correct? And from what you have read in
25 preparation for this case, that is what was done with Lisa
1600
1 McPherson, as well. Correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And the woman, Teresa, that you were caring for,
4 she was in, would you describe, a full-blown psychotic
5 incident?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And that is what you, I think, have seen described
8 as Lisa McPherson in this case. Correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And in your affidavit, I think you said about your
11 experience that this person thought she was someone else,
12 she was speaking in tongues, is that correct?
13 A Well, she was --
14 Q Barking like a dog?
15 A -- barking.
16 THE COURT: Thought she was other people?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q In your experience in this isolation watch, this
20 woman tried to hurt herself. Is that correct?
21 A She was banging her head on the wall and things.
22 Q And in Mr. Prince's affidavit, I think you see
23 where he said that she had to be restrained, and he, in
24 fact, with others, helped restrain her to keep her from
25 hurting herself or others?
1601
1 A I think that was -- that was in mine --
2 Q Well, did that happen? Let's make it -- move
3 along.
4 A Yes.
5 Q She was restrained to keep from hurting herself,
6 or others?
7 A Well, restraint -- I mean, we watched her. We
8 had -- as I said here, we had to watch her to make sure that
9 she didn't kill herself or hurt herself or hurt us or
10 whatever.
11 So to the degree that we needed to keep that from
12 happening, we did. But, I mean, she wasn't in a straight
13 jacket or something.
14 Q I understand.
15 A Okay.
16 Q I'm just asking in your experience in that
17 isolation watch, did you restrain the woman that you were
18 caring for?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And in your affidavit, if you would look at
21 Paragraph 68, it indicates she was never referred to any
22 mental healthcare practitioner.
23 Then you say why. You say: "Scientologists
24 believe all psychiatrists and psychotherapists are
25 completely evil. Hubbard preached the evils of psychiatry
1602
1 so thoroughly that no one in Scientology would ever consider
2 letting a mental health practitioner examine anyone, even
3 someone who was in the middle of a psychotic episode."
4 Do you see where you have written that?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And at the time you were caring for this woman,
7 you believed and followed that policy. Correct?
8 A Yes. I did.
9 Q And at that time in this isolation watch you
10 described, you would never have thought about taking this
11 woman to a psychiatrist, would you?
12 A It didn't even occur to me.
13 Q And as far as you know today, that is still the
14 beliefs of Scientology?
15 A I'm sure.
16 Q And I think you say in your affidavit that in your
17 experience in caring for this woman --
18 THE COURT: Well, now, are we going to let her
19 testify what her beliefs are today? If we are, then
20 we'll have to let her testify to her beliefs on both
21 sides.
22 MR. FUGATE: Let me back up.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q When you left Scientology, that was the belief
25 that was in place that would you not take -- when you were
1603
1 caring for this woman, you would not have taken her to a
2 psychiatrist. Correct?
3 A That is correct.
4 THE COURT: And I really don't think that is at
5 issue, either, to be honest.
6 MR. FUGATE: I'm just trying to establish that.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q I think you said the only thing she was given to
9 try to calm her down was a mixture of calcium and magnesium
10 to help her relax and sleep?
11 A Yes.
12 Q This is in your experience in this isolation
13 watch?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q I think you also indicated in there that she
18 became exhausted, that she could hardly sleep and became
19 exhausted. Correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And is that what you saw that happened to Lisa
22 McPherson, as you read through the reports?
23 THE COURT: What are you asking her, if she
24 read through the --
25 MR. FUGATE: Caregiver reports.
1604
1 THE COURT: -- the caretakers reports?
2 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
3 A That is what seemed to be happening.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Now, in your isolation watch, this went on for how
6 long, do you recall?
7 A Mmm, I put in here several weeks. I think
8 perhaps -- perhaps two to three weeks.
9 Q And that is a similar period of time that we've
10 been talking about with Lisa McPherson, as far as you know
11 from the caregiver reports, I think 17 days is what it adds
12 up to?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Pretty much on point thus far with what you
15 experienced and what you have read about with Lisa
16 McPherson. Right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And when this woman, Teresa, became exhausted, you
19 didn't take her to the hospital, did you?
20 A No.
21 Q And she was in an introspection rundown, was she
22 not?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you say in your affidavit you read up to
25 determine what needed to be done to take part in an
1605
1 introspection rundown for the person?
2 A Yes.
3 Q I think you said in there that after several weeks
4 and completing the introspection rundown, that this woman
5 came out of her psychotic state and went home. Is that
6 correct?
7 A That is right.
8 Q And, again, this is the only introspection rundown
9 you and Jesse have participated in. Correct?
10 A Yes.
11 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. Wait a
12 minute. I don't understand that, because I thought
13 when I read this thing, "went home," I thought home
14 would be back at Scientology. That would have been
15 where her home was.
16 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: I gathered this was she was sent
18 out of Scientology and went home to her family.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
20 MR. FUGATE: I'll get to that.
21 THE COURT: Am I reading that -- what you said
22 in your affidavit, correctly?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'll object to the way the
25 question is formed, because this is the only
1606
1 isolation watch she and Jesse Prince did together.
2 There is more isolation watches, I believe, in his
3 affidavit.
4 THE COURT: And she testified to that. That is
5 what she's talking about.
6 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay.
7 MR. FUGATE: And that is what I'm asking her
8 about.
9 THE COURT: Right.
10 MR. FUGATE: What they did together, so there
11 is no mistake or confusion.
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q And, frankly -- well, first of all, I was looking
14 down. Did you say that to your understanding she went home
15 to her family, this woman?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay.
18 THE COURT: Was she kicked out of Scientology
19 after this was over?
20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't know if she
21 was still a Scientologist or not. I believe she was
22 no longer in the Sea Org. I don't know --
23 THE COURT: Do you know if she ever came back
24 to Scientology.
25 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
1607
1 THE COURT: I don't know if you -- if you get
2 kicked out. I don't know if that is a bad term. I
3 apologize.
4 MR. FUGATE: I'll cover all that, if you bear
5 with me.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q And at the time you participated in this isolation
8 watch, you thought you were caring for the person, did you
9 not?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q And it was a difficult experience, as you describe
12 in here, as far as what happened to her and what happened to
13 you in caring for her, is that correct?
14 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 A Yes.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Now, did you, in fact, receive a commendation for
19 caring for this woman? Do you remember?
20 A Mmm --
21 Q I'm going to show you what has been marked --
22 MR. FUGATE: What is our next exhibit, Madam
23 Clerk?
24 THE COURT: The two affidavits don't need to be
25 marked, Madam Clerk, because they're already in,
1608
1 maybe more than once.
2 MR. FUGATE: No, they don't.
3 THE WITNESS: I remember this.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q You remember what?
6 A I remember getting this.
7 Q What is "this" that you are looking at?
8 A It was a commendation.
9 Q And you recognize it?
10 A I do.
11 MR. FUGATE: I offer it into evidence as our
12 next exhibit.
13 THE CLERK: 90.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q It says "Highly commended, Jesse Prince," correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q "Commended, Stacy Young." Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And we see "Susie Watson Taylor" under the "Highly
20 Commended." That is the person Mr. Prince identified in his
21 affidavit. Correct?
22 A I believe so.
23 Q And the comment -- it says: "Commendable. The
24 following people are acknowledged for their assistance on
25 handling end cycle that was above and beyond their duties.
1609
1 Their actions helped in the standard application of
2 Scientology technology on the introspection rundown --
3 RD --" I assume "RD" is rundown?
4 A Yes.
5 Q "-- that made a being sane."
6 A That is what we felt we did.
7 Q And it says the commendation was entered by -- who
8 is the senior CS? What is that?
9 A That is Lieutenant Sandy Wilheim (phonetic).
10 Q Was that the senior case supervisor in this
11 matter?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Didn't come from David Miscavige, by the way, did
14 it?
15 A No.
16 Q And you weren't sending any reports -- I think you
17 already acknowledged that -- directly to him in this
18 episode, were you?
19 A No.
20 THE COURT: Was Mr. Hubbard still alive?
21 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: What does this mean when it says
23 "Authorized by LRH, communicator"?
24 THE WITNESS: An LRH thing, there is still --
25 as far as I know, there is still such a thing as an
1610
1 LRH communicator. And gold is just the location.
2 Like there could be an LRH communicator for the
3 United States, or an LRH communicator for gold.
4 Gold is the name of the --
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q I think you said this woman, in your affidavit --
8 and I think Jesse Prince said in his affidavit -- that this
9 woman was a potential PR flack, I believe is the term, is
10 that correct?
11 A I believe Jesse said that.
12 Q Did you ever receive any instructions on this
13 watch to let this woman die, any orders?
14 A No. No.
15 Q She didn't die, either, did she?
16 A No. Of course not. We took as good of care of
17 her as we could.
18 Q And did Mr. Dandar ever challenge you or
19 Mr. Prince concerning whether you had factual support when
20 Jesse Prince talked about the end of cycle in the
21 introspection rundown?
22 A No.
23 Q Other than to say, "Look it up in the dictionary"?
24 A Not that I ever was present for.
25 Q And if you were asked to testify about that
1611
1 experience and were not a critic, you would have to say that
2 you were involved in a similar isolation watch to Lisa, and
3 you did everything you could to help care for her, correct?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And would you have to say that from what you have
6 read, the caregivers in this case were doing what they could
7 do to help Lisa McPherson?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And how would you feel if someone filed a lawsuit
10 against you in 1988 and accused you of standing by and
11 watching this person die?
12 THE COURT: Counselor, you can't really ask her
13 that. The lady didn't die.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Was it a trying experience, in any event, this
16 watch?
17 A It was exhausting.
18 THE COURT: I mean, that would be the absolute
19 insult to file something like that if the lady was
20 still alive and well.
21 MR. FUGATE: I was merely drawing --
22 THE COURT: I understand.
23 MR. FUGATE: I thought you might, Judge.
24 THE WITNESS: Well, I can tell you --
25 THE COURT: You know how I get at the end of
1612
1 the day. I don't like to hear stuff I don't need to
2 hear.
3 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to get to the end of
4 the day, Judge.
5 THE WITNESS: I can tell you, when Jesse was
6 working on this isolation watch with me, he was
7 caring for this woman as much as he possibly could.
8 So were everybody else.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Jesse Prince was?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Jesse Prince wanted to see that she was okay and
13 not hurt --
14 A Of course.
15 Q -- and she didn't hurt herself or anyone else?
16 A Yes. But I think that these two passages, the one
17 in his affidavit and the one in mine -- Mmm, it's a good
18 example, your Honor, of what I have been trying to tell you
19 about, because the language that is used in his is very
20 inflammatory, and it's -- Mmm -- it's designed to back up a
21 particular agenda.
22 Q Let me ask you this. You were present in court at
23 a hearing where Judge Moody asked Mr. Dandar, "Do you have
24 any facts to support these allegations about Mr. Miscavige
25 ordering someone to die to avoid a public relations flack"?
1613
1 A Yes.
2 Q What did Mr. Dandar say?
3 A I don't recall his exact words. But I believe he
4 said something about, "I will, your Honor," or "I will --"
5 Q Would it refresh your recollection if he said,
6 "No, I never will because Scientologists all lie"?
7 A Oh, yes, it does, actually.
8 Q And when Jesse Prince provides an affidavit, and
9 you have indicated that these are written by you, and I take
10 it when you say he's over the top and can't substantiate it,
11 it's meant to infer something in the worst light against
12 Scientology. Correct?
13 A Which one are you talking about?
14 Q I'm talking about Mr. Prince's affidavit we've
15 been going through.
16 A Well, I think that is clear.
17 Q That is what you were arguing about with him over
18 there in that video?
19 A Yes, because it concerned me about Jesse that he
20 was willing to go a lot further than I was in the -- in this
21 practice that I have been trying to describe to the Court
22 of --
23 THE COURT: I don't know, I read some pretty
24 hostile affidavits last night.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, well --
1614
1 THE COURT: I may have read one on this, matter
2 of fact, that I think was quite a bit more detailed
3 than this. I don't know.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I think you read one --
5 THE COURT: I mean, I saw one that was very
6 detailed about this -- about this -- whatever this
7 introspection rundown was.
8 THE WITNESS: Isolation watch.
9 THE COURT: Right, and I don't know if this is
10 it, but it seems like there was one much more
11 detailed.
12 THE WITNESS: Well --
13 BY MR. FUGATE:
14 Q I'm sorry. Were you about to say something?
15 A Just to complete what I was going to say, I just
16 was often very concerned that Mr. Prince was willing to say
17 whatever someone wanted him to say, and I was also willing
18 to do that, but I felt that he went further than could be --
19 Mmm -- substantiated.
20 Q And we just established that you got a
21 commendation for caring for this woman. Correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you have just indicated it was a very
24 difficult and trying experience that you went through.
25 Correct?
1615
1 A For everyone.
2 THE COURT: Were there any commendations passed
3 out on the Lisa McPherson introspection rundown?
4 MR. FUGATE: I don't know, Judge.
5 THE COURT: Well, let's find out.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Let me ask you this question, Ms. Brooks.
8 THE WITNESS: I would doubt it very much.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Did you --
11 THE COURT: As I remember, Mr. Kartuzinski said
12 he was demoted to a laundry man.
13 MR. FUGATE: I think that is accurate.
14 THE COURT: Well, I think it probably is.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q Having gone through that and just having you
17 describe it as you just did, that is not the way you wanted
18 to portray it in your affidavits, though, was it, that
19 introspection rundown?
20 A You mean the way I just told you about it?
21 Q The way you just told me about it, I take it, is
22 the way it happened?
23 A Right.
24 Q But that is not the way you portrayed it in your
25 affidavits, is it?
1616
1 A No.
2 Q Or Mr. Prince, for that matter. Correct?
3 A No. Definitely.
4 Q Now, the judge asked, and I'm going to ask you, if
5 you ever wondered what happened to this woman that you --
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- cared for?
8 MR. FUGATE: I would like this marked, your
9 Honor, if I may, as our next exhibit.
10 A Huh? Yeah.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q Would it surprise you to find that she's alive,
13 well, successful in the real estate business, living in New
14 York, and still a devout Scientologist?
15 A It actually wouldn't surprise me.
16 Q Is the photograph, does that depict the same
17 person we've been talking about as the person you cared for?
18 A Yes. It does.
19 Q And there is a photograph of her standing, talking
20 to a gentleman there. By the way, I think one of the last
21 photographs.
22 A Just a minute. Let me look. Oh, you guys did
23 this one to show the date?
24 Q Well, it's kind of a terrible way to try to date a
25 photograph to put a New York Times from yesterday in it, but
1617
1 I asked, so there would be no confusion, the photograph be
2 taken with yesterday's New York Times.
3 A That is John Carmichael.
4 Q And John Carmichael is the man we heard referenced
5 on the tape that we heard earlier about Mr. Minton saying,
6 "Just look at John Carmichael." Correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And who is John Carmichael?
9 A He's a Scientologist that I have known since 1978.
10 Q And the photographs --
11 MR. FUGATE: They would be a composite exhibit,
12 I don't know what the next exhibit number is, just
13 for the record.
14 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, what would that be?
15 THE CLERK: 91.
16 MR. FUGATE: And the affidavit, there is --
17 THE COURT: Why don't we put the affidavit as a
18 composite exhibit, if that is all right. Is that
19 okay?
20 MR. FUGATE: All right with me, Judge.
21 THE COURT: Any objection?
22 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
23 THE COURT: Overruled. I mean, it may not be
24 relevant to the trial, but it is relevant to this
25 hearing, and it may be relevant to the trial if
1618
1 there is one.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q Is John Carmichael -- do you know him to be the
4 Scientology minister that was commended in -- there was an
5 article in the New York Times about for ministering to the
6 firemen and police officers at Ground Zero?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And so this woman, thanks to your care, is alive
9 and a Scientologist today. Is that correct?
10 THE COURT: Now, that is a little farfetched,
11 counselor. I don't know that she's capable of
12 testifying to that.
13 MR. FUGATE: I think the exhibit will speak for
14 itself, your Honor.
15 That is all of the questions I have.
16 THE WITNESS: It makes me glad that she's okay.
17 THE COURT: Absolutely. It makes me glad, too.
18 I suspect there is nobody in this room that doesn't
19 wish that Lisa McPherson was also okay.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 MR. FUGATE: Those are all of the questions I
22 have.
23 THE COURT: All right. Thank you --
24 Can you do your recross --
25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
1619
1 THE COURT: -- in like 15 or 20 minutes?
2 MR. DANDAR: Let me go as fast as I can. If I
3 get yes and no answers, I can.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 Well, you know, I'm tired.
6 THE WITNESS: I am, too.
7 THE COURT: She's tired, and I think that is
8 fair. So, you know what, save them for tomorrow.
9 We're going to quit for today.
10 Now, I presume we're heading home here with
11 this first witness. And so whoever your next
12 witness is, if it is Mr. Minton, then I assume we'll
13 be able to start tomorrow. Right?
14 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Minton, I'm telling you, will
15 be the next witness. And I see him in the back of
16 the courtroom.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, be sure you are here
18 tomorrow morning, because I think he'll finish up
19 fairly quick.
20 MR. MINTON: Yes, your Honor.
21 MR. DANDAR: Your Honor, I had that witness to
22 put on tomorrow out of turn, because he's from out
23 of state. I subpoenaed him yesterday while he's in
24 town, he's staying over, his plane leaves at 6 p.m.
25 tomorrow.
1620
1 THE COURT: You want to call somebody out of
2 order?
3 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
4 THE COURT: For how long?
5 MR. DANDAR: Actually, I want to -- this goes
6 to their motion --
7 THE COURT: Wait a second. You may go ahead,
8 step down.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor.
10 MR. DANDAR: This goes to their motion to
11 dismiss.
12 THE COURT: Well, I don't know -- I mean, I
13 don't have anything in front of me. This is the
14 thing you wanted to take up today?
15 MR. DANDAR: Take up today. You offered to
16 listen to our evidence that we're going to intend to
17 produce at trial on a paragraph that forms the basis
18 for their motion to dismiss. You said we can do
19 that in camera so we don't have to give away our
20 trial strategy.
21 And this witness is prepared to come in and
22 testify --
23 THE COURT: I know exactly what I said. I said
24 what you must do for me to have an in camera
25 hearing, it is very touchy because I could get in
1621
1 trouble myself with the Judicial Qualifications
2 Committee.
3 This is the way I always do in cameras. You
4 must file a motion -- a notice of -- request for in
5 camera hearing before the Court. And we have an
6 argument and you say what it is you want me to hear
7 in camera.
8 They have a right to be heard as to whether or
9 not I will hear it in camera.
10 If I then decide I'll hear it in camera, I go
11 in camera right then and there and have the hearing.
12 If I decide it is not in camera, should not
13 have been in camera, I come right out, bring the
14 witness out, and we go on and they have full
15 cross-examination.
16 If I decide it is proper in camera, I just
17 simply come out and tell them at the end it is
18 proper for in camera and that is it.
19 I didn't give you that much detail, but what I
20 said was you have to file a motion for an in camera
21 hearing.
22 MR. DANDAR: All right.
23 THE COURT: I don't have one.
24 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'll have one to you
25 tomorrow morning.
1622
1 MR. WEINBERG: But, in any event, we would very
2 much object to taking any witness out of order in
3 light of what is going on here. We need to put our
4 case on.
5 If he's talking about the witness that I think
6 he's talking about, which he now says is his expert,
7 there is absolutely no reason why we would have to
8 put his expert out of order which we haven't even
9 had a chance to depose.
10 THE COURT: That is true, and if it is your
11 expert, you can't do it in camera. In other words,
12 if it's an expert, your expert will be fully deposed
13 by the Church, so you can't do that in camera.
14 What I was suggesting to you is you know how, a
15 lot of times, you know, judges don't see what
16 lawyers see in a case, and maybe the other side
17 doesn't see it, either. Remember that passage that
18 I read to you from -- from Professor Earhardt's book
19 that said the case you cited to me, which I think
20 was Gore or -- Gore or some oddball name like that,
21 and it said that that case that was decided by some
22 appellate court seemed to misunderstand the purpose
23 of discovery, that really the other side should know
24 the evidence, and that was the point of 70 -- I'm
25 not real familiar with these numbers in civil, if
1623
1 this were criminal, I could rattle it off the top of
2 my head -- but whatever it was.
3 So I pointed that out to you to explain to you
4 why I was going to not let you bring -- this is a
5 very long explanation -- bring out cockroaches from
6 your entomologist because, in essence, I thought
7 that even despite the fact that you cited that case,
8 looking at Earhardt's evidence, you had to come
9 forward, once they put you to your challenge.
10 And I think what I said is I don't see you've
11 got anything unless you have got something that you
12 can't put it on. Okay?
13 From that, I thought if you have got some
14 theory that you want to talk to me about that I'm
15 not seeing, not a witness necessarily, but if you
16 had some theory and you thought the Judge just
17 doesn't get it, which is certainly possible,
18 especially this afternoon at this hour, that I would
19 let you make a motion for an in camera hearing with
20 me to say, "Here is where I plan to go. I don't have
21 to tell them my theory."
22 But if you want to do a witness in camera, that
23 is different. You have to -- they get to argue it
24 should not be in camera, and they get to wait until
25 I go see if I decide to go in camera. That is quite
1624
1 a different procedure.
2 I was talking you could come see me in camera,
3 after notice, to tell me how you thought you could
4 get whatever you had to prove these allegations, in
5 case I couldn't get it. And that is quite possible.
6 So that is what I meant.
7 Now where are we from tomorrow? You may slip
8 past us.
9 THE WITNESS: I didn't want to interrupt, your
10 Honor.
11 THE COURT: That is all right.
12 MR. DANDAR: I would just like to put him on
13 the witness stand out of order.
14 THE COURT: Who is he again? Is he going to be
15 your expert?
16 MR. DANDAR: Actually, I have no arrangements
17 to pay him any witness fee. I just subpoenaed him
18 because I found out he's in town. He's someone who
19 was Jesse Prince's senior at the Church of
20 Scientology. And I'm still trying to talk Jesse
21 Prince into being my expert witness as an expert.
22 But this man is a fact witness based upon his
23 experience.
24 MR. WEINBERG: What is his name?
25 MR. DANDAR: Bill Franks.
1625
1 MR. WEINBERG: This is the person he told us
2 would be his expert. He didn't come to town to
3 watch the Devil Rays. If he came to town, he came
4 to town to be with you.
5 MR. DANDAR: That is not true.
6 MR. WEINBERG: He lives in Pennsylvania is what
7 he told us.
8 MR. DANDAR: Right, he lives outside of
9 Philadelphia. He has a friend down here who happens
10 to be an attorney. And he visits -- comes down and
11 visits. I found out. I had him subpoenaed.
12 THE COURT: Let me ask you a question,
13 counselor. Did you think he might come in, after
14 seeing how long Ms. Brooks was on the witness stand,
15 just come in tomorrow afternoon perhaps for 15 or 20
16 minutes and run out and catch his plane?
17 MR. DANDAR: Well --
18 THE COURT: It ain't going to happen. So your
19 request to call him out of order, if it is for -- if
20 it's for two or three days, it isn't really fair.
21 They need to go on ahead with their case. I don't
22 think you can assure me he's going to be on and off
23 in half an hour. If you could, I would let you call
24 him out of order. But I don't think that is going
25 to happen.
1626
1 MR. DANDAR: If I can find out that my direct
2 examination of him would be up to a half-hour, would
3 that be then permissible?
4 THE COURT: Only if I was assured that through
5 cross-examination it wasn't going to be more than a
6 half-hour. I don't think you'll be able to do that
7 on an expert.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, see --
9 THE COURT: If he will come in and say, I was
10 in the Church of Scientology from this year to this
11 year, during that period of time I supervised Jesse
12 Prince who was in this capacity and I was in this
13 capacity, thank you, yes, you could call him out of
14 order because that would be a very simple, very
15 short something that could be verified very quickly
16 and -- but if he's going to go into anything else,
17 then you can't call him out of order.
18 I mean, I would let him call a witness for a
19 very brief, short something like I just suggested.
20 So if that is what you are calling him for, I'll let
21 you put him on out of order.
22 MR. DANDAR: No. It is much more than that.
23 THE COURT: Then you just can't. You need to
24 call him back.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right.
1627
1 MR. FUGATE: What time tomorrow, your Honor?
2 THE COURT: Nine o'clock.
3 MR. WEINBERG: See you in the morning, your
4 Honor.
5 THE COURT: All right. Because you know what,
6 Ken, he could be here for days and days. I mean,
7 this lady was here for days and days and days.
8 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken for the evening.)
9 ___________________________________
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1628
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
7
I further certify that I am not a relative,
8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
10
11 DATED this 16th day of May, 2002.
12
13
14 ______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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