KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 1 TESTIMONY OF CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG ROBERT S. MINTON SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 17, 2002. Morning Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________
Volume 1, Page 2 APPEARANCES: MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, NY 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 3 APPEARANCES: (Continued) MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. Attorney for Robert Minton MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 Attorney for Stacy Brooks ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw Mr. Brian Asay Ms. Joyce Earl
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 4 1 THE COURT: You may call your next witness. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Fugate slipped out for a 3 second. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 (Mr. Fugate entered the courtroom.) 6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. 7 THE COURT: It's all right. 8 MR. FUGATE: I just was looking for my coat, 9 and it was on the back of the chair. 10 We call Mr. Minton at this time. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor -- thank you. 13 THE BAILIFF: Stand here, sir. Face the 14 clerk, raise your right hand. 15 THE COURT: Face me. I'm swearing in these 16 witnesses. 17 (The witness was sworn.) 18 THE WITNESS: I do. 19 THE COURT: You may lower your hand. 20 THE BAILIFF: Have a seat. Watch your step. 21 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 Now, have we dealt with the notice to 24 produce? 25 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, we have.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 5 1 THE COURT: Have we fully covered that? 2 Mr. Dandar, are you satisfied that's been covered? 3 MR. DANDAR: Well, it's been covered -- 4 there's a -- there's still a question about this RICO 5 suit, the RICO draft of the suit that hasn't been 6 produced by anybody and has been talked about but not 7 produced. 8 THE COURT: Well, if there is -- if there is 9 such a suit, I presume it will be produced. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. 11 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, in our 12 response to request for production of documents which 13 has been filed and a copy -- 14 THE COURT: Excuse me just a sec. 15 Okay. 16 MR. HOWIE: A courtesy copy of that has been 17 provided to the Court, along with all of the 18 attachments. Those are all the documents that we have 19 to produce. We have specifically responded to that 20 request and stated that we have no such document. 21 THE COURT: Okay. I did get a response to a 22 request to produce. 23 MR. HOWIE: I believe it was provided to the 24 Court on Tuesday, the -- 25 THE COURT: I can't remember. What did I do
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 6 1 about the personal income tax of Ms. Brooks? Did I 2 suggest that the 19 -- the 2000 return should be 3 produced? 4 MR. McGOWAN: You directed that the LMT be 5 produced as far as her return. You denied it -- the 6 production without prejudice, and if they could show 7 some sort of thread -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. McGOWAN: -- we would revisit the issue. 10 THE COURT: All right. Did I make the same 11 ruling on Mr. Minton? Or was that one of the ones 12 that the Fifth Amendment was going to be claimed on? 13 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, the Fifth Amendment 14 will be raised as is to any tax returns personal to 15 Mr. Minton. The Court previously ruled some time ago 16 in making its ruling on the deposition questions that 17 Mr. Minton was required to answer because he did not 18 waive privilege that he had maintained privilege as to 19 income and reporting on tax returns. 20 THE COURT: Well, I guess I should state, is 21 there anything that was required to be produced that 22 has not been produced because of a Fifth Amendment 23 privilege? At this time? 24 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, specifically 25 the tax returns.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 7 1 THE COURT: The tax returns. 2 MR. HOWIE: In our response, we have 3 specifically stated that on the grounds of privilege 4 we are not submitting those. 5 THE COURT: Okay. So then if there is a 6 RICO suit that has been shown or anything like it 7 and -- yes, you're right, there has been some 8 discussion about it. So if anybody has it, it needs 9 to be produced. 10 That includes, Mr. Fugate, if any 11 representative of the Church has it, Mr. Minton has 12 it, if Mr. Howie has it. 13 MR. FUGATE: There is not one, but I'll 14 clear it up with Mr. Minton, hopefully. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, on one other point, 17 on paragraph 6 -- 18 THE COURT: I can't seem to find that. It 19 shouldn't surprise anybody, with all the things I have 20 up here, that I just can't put my hands on stuff 21 readily. So if you're going to tell me about 22 paragraph 6, you might have to show it to me. 23 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I'll provide you 24 with a copy of the request for production of 25 documents. That's not our response; that's the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 8 1 request itself. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. HOWIE: But the -- paragraph 6 requests 4 a copy of any and all bank statements from all banking 5 institutions utilized by Robert Minton for the period 6 of two years prior to the filing of this notice. Our 7 response -- our written response to that was that it 8 was unduly burdensome and not likely to lead to 9 discovery of admissible evidence. 10 In addition to that, we are raising Fifth 11 Amendment privilege. 12 THE COURT: Isn't there an order already 13 requiring the production of that? Or not? 14 MR. HOWIE: There was an order concerning 15 production of bank records as to certain accounts in 16 Boston, specifically Fleet and Fidelity, and those 17 were produced after a long harangue in Boston. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. HOWIE: However, this is an extremely 20 broad item, which requests all institutions and all 21 accounts, which conceivably would include accounts in 22 several other states or countries. And we are raising 23 Fifth Amendment privilege as to production of those 24 documents, beyond those documents previously 25 discovered in this case.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 9 1 THE COURT: All right. So there's a Fifth 2 Amendment privilege being raised as to tax returns and 3 as to bank statements as it is expressed in here -- 4 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: -- beyond those which have 6 already been produced. 7 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, apart from any 8 other objections. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Now -- so that, other 10 than those two, are there any other Fifth Amendment 11 privileges being asserted as to the request for 12 production? 13 MR. HOWIE: I'm not aware of any further at 14 this time. 15 THE COURT: And so, other than those, it is 16 your belief that your response to request to produce 17 has been complied with. 18 MR. HOWIE: That's correct, your Honor, yes. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. HOWIE: All documents available to us as 21 requested have been provided. 22 THE COURT: All right. Now, one last thing 23 that I need to ask -- and I need to ask this, if 24 anybody knows the answer to it, because I don't. 25 In -- I have done very little federal work, so I don't
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 10 1 know. Is there some prohibition of transferring money 2 from out of the country into this country and over a 3 certain amount without doing something? 4 MR. HOWIE: It's my understanding that there 5 is a requirement that any -- no, I'm thinking of a 6 different provision, concerning the deposit of more 7 than $10,000 in cash and the reporting requirement. 8 Beyond that, I'm afraid I'm ignorant. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Anybody else know, any of 10 you who worked in the U.S. attorney's office? 11 MR. DANDAR: My non-expert statement is that 12 over $10,000 coming in or going out has to be 13 reported. Any money that is earned overseas needs to 14 be reported and taxes paid on it if it exceeds 15 $80,000. 16 MR. FUGATE: Per annum. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. DANDAR: But that's a non-expert 19 opinion. 20 THE COURT: That's good enough. Okay. 21 MR. WEINBERG: It's more complicated than 22 that. 23 THE COURT: And I don't doubt it. 24 MR. DANDAR: Sandy Weinberg should know the 25 answer to that question.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 11 1 THE COURT: Yes. Do you know? I mean -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: You know, off the top of my 3 head, I can't tell you the amounts. There are 4 limitations as to, you know, actually physically 5 bringing money into the country. There are a series 6 of new statutes that are in place because of 7 September 11th, which I'm not familiar with, which 8 have -- which have made reporting obligations even 9 more severe than they were before. 10 THE COURT: Well, I know that there are, at 11 least in this case, there are two $500,000 checks that 12 I am aware of that came from -- I guess at least began 13 in or a transfer from a Swiss bank. I don't know 14 enough -- not being a worldwide financier, I don't 15 know how that works. I don't know whether somebody 16 has to have money in that bank to begin that process 17 or whether the bank that begins the process is the 18 bank in this country. 19 I mean, I just don't do that myself 20 personally, and I've not been involved in those kinds 21 of cases as either a lawyer or a judge. 22 MR. WEINBERG: It's really -- without -- it 23 is way more complicated. It has to do with what one's 24 intent is and a lot of other things as to what one can 25 do vis-a-vis the laws of the United States about
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 12 1 bringing money in or taking money out. And, I mean, 2 there's nothing in and of itself wrong -- 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 MR. WEINBERG: -- bringing money -- 5 THE COURT: Reporting requirements and this 6 type of thing. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Right, right. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, it is not my job to 9 know that. I just -- in the event that the Fifth 10 Amendment issues came up, I was just going to try to 11 see if I could gain some knowledge. 12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, there is one other 13 point that I need to raise. As to Request 4 and 5, 14 requesting copies of all checks written by Stacy 15 Brooks to Mr. Minton or Mr. Minton to Stacy Brooks, we 16 have reason to believe that those checks were 17 previously disclosed or discovered. We have not 18 included them with this response, apart from that 19 belief. But we also raise objections that such a 20 request is unduly burdensome and is not likely to lead 21 to discovery of admissible evidence. 22 So to amend my response to the Court, we've 23 also raised objections as to paragraphs -- 24 THE COURT: Well, I don't think a two-year 25 request for checks between Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 13 1 is unduly burdensome, nor do I think that it's 2 oppressive or any of those other things you just 3 mentioned. 4 However, if they've already been produced, I 5 don't think you need to produce them again. 6 MR. HOWIE: I have seen such checks attached 7 to pleadings in this case, and I have reason to 8 believe that they have been produced. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. HOWIE: Whether that's a complete 11 production -- 12 THE COURT: Do you have those checks? 13 MR. DANDAR: To my best memory, I do not 14 have those checks. That's why I asked for them to be 15 produced. 16 THE COURT: He said he doesn't have them. 17 MR. HOWIE: All right. Well, I will 18 instruct my client accordingly based on the Court's 19 ruling. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. HOWIE: We would physically not be able 22 to produce them today. 23 THE COURT: Right. I would think, rather 24 than saying for a period of two years prior to the 25 filing of this notice, that that's kind of odd. It's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 14 1 like a two-year period that begins and ends in the 2 middle of a year. I don't know about everybody else, 3 but I used to keep my bank statements year to year. 4 Wouldn't 2000 and 2001 accomplish your purpose? 5 MR. DANDAR: That would be fine. 6 THE COURT: So if that's of any help, 2000, 7 2001, if your client keeps his records in that 8 fashion. 9 MR. HOWIE: With the permission of the 10 Court, I will discuss this with my client during our 11 first opportunity. 12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 13 Mr. Fugate. 14 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 MR. FUGATE: First thing I'm going to do, 17 though, before I -- 18 THE COURT: Oh, I have to ask one thing. I 19 asked this of Ms. Brooks. Mr. Howie has already 20 placed on the record that in the event the Court 21 should decide, in light of your admission to perjury, 22 to file its own order to show cause based on that, he 23 has indicated he would accept service. 24 THE WITNESS: That's fine with me. 25 THE COURT: Is that fine with you?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 15 1 THE WITNESS: It is. 2 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 3 Proceed. Look at that, glasses. 4 MR. FUGATE: But I actually looked at this 5 exhibit, and I couldn't read it with my glasses. 6 THE COURT: Even with your glasses. 7 MR. FUGATE: So I'm over the hill. 8 Good morning, your Honor. 9 ROBERT S. MINTON 10 being first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and 11 testified as follows: 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Good morning, Mr. Minton. Would you state your 15 name for the record if you haven't done so already. 16 A Robert, middle initial S., like Sam, Minton, 17 M-i-n-t-o-n. 18 Q And, Mr. Minton, I have placed before you or I 19 did place up there to save a little time three affi- -- 20 copies, actually, of three affidavits -- 21 THE COURT: Excuse me. 22 Mr. Howie, do you need this back? 23 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, unless the 24 Court needs it. 25 THE COURT: No. I've got it here somewhere.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 16 1 I'm sorry, proceed. 2 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, your Honor. May I 3 proceed? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q I placed on the witness stand three affidavits or 7 copies of three affidavits. I believe the first is dated 8 April 18th, and the other two are dated April 24th. And 9 the first one has no number in the caption, and the second 10 and third are captioned "second" and "third." Do you have 11 those in front of you? 12 A I do. 13 Q And are those, sir, the three -- copies of the 14 three affidavits that you have executed through your 15 counsel and filed in the record in this proceeding? 16 A Yes, they appear to be. 17 Q And would you check and make sure that the 18 signature pages are your signature on each of the three? 19 A That is my signature on each of those. 20 Q And for the record for this proceeding, you've 21 had an opportunity to review those three before today. And 22 are they true and accurate to the best of your knowledge as 23 you sit here today? 24 A There's an inaccuracy in the second affidavit, 25 but it's -- it's referred to in the recantation affidavit,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 17 1 the first one, which doesn't have a number. I think I 2 mention in here that there is a $100,000 check that hasn't 3 been produced by the bank in discovery, and so some of the 4 figures in the second affidavit are off by 100,000. I've 5 since discovered the date of the missing $100,000 check. 6 And there are a few items that are off by $100,000 in that 7 affidavit. 8 Q And I suspect that you're going to be on the 9 witness stand for a day or two, so if -- once we get to 10 that, we'll -- if you'll note it somewhere so we can 11 correct it for the record and for the Court, I would 12 appreciate that. 13 A Yes, okay. 14 THE COURT: Can you all give me just a 15 minute to go through this and get these three 16 affidavits? Are you going to get to those affidavits 17 right fast? 18 MR. FUGATE: No, Judge, I'm not. Actually, 19 I just wanted to identify them for the record and have 20 him indicate that he has executed each of the three. 21 THE COURT: Then I'll look for them -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, we have a copy of 23 them if you want them. 24 THE COURT: I think I have them here. Let 25 me kind of root through here and see if I can find
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 18 1 them. If I can't -- I have the big one, the second. 2 And I know I have the other two; it's just a matter of 3 finding them. 4 Continue. 5 MR. DANDAR: Do you have those exhibit 6 numbers? 7 MR. FUGATE: Well, they're filed in the 8 record. I thought we would cut down on some paper, 9 amazingly. 10 And, Judge, rather than trying to do this in 11 a narrative fashion, learning from the first episode, 12 I think I'm going to try to go and ask questions to 13 speed this along -- 14 THE COURT: That's fine. 15 MR. FUGATE: -- and try to break it down 16 into some areas, hopefully, that will get us through 17 the issues and make some sense. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Mr. Minton, you've been sitting through -- I 20 should ask you this to preface these questions, I guess. 21 You were added as a party to the counterclaim. Is that 22 correct? 23 A That is -- 24 Q In this matter. 25 A -- correct, yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 19 1 Q And after you were added as a party, I believe 2 there was a request that you be provided with transcripts 3 of the proceedings that had been going forward in this 4 hearing. Is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And you've had an opportunity, I take it, to read 7 those transcripts? 8 A I've read all of the transcripts -- 9 Q Okay. 10 A -- up -- you know, up until this week. 11 Q Then this question will make sense. Are you the 12 same Mr. Minton that has been discussed in the testimony as 13 far as funding anti-Scientology litigation, both here in 14 the state of Florida and around the country? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q All right. And when did you start to do that, 17 sir? 18 A I think the first monies that I gave was to an 19 organization called FACTNet, and that would have been in 20 late 1995, early 1996. 21 Q And have you been funding litigation not only in 22 this country, but around the world against Scientology from 23 that period of time on? 24 A Yes, I have. 25 Q And can you tell us in a ballpark figure, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 20 1 guess, about how much, if you've calculated it, you have 2 provided in funding for anti-Scientology litigation? 3 A Well, I'm not sure I can segregate it out with 4 specifics to litigation, but, you know, involving the LMT 5 litigation, the movie, you know, which is all part of this 6 anti-Scientology thing, you know, the figure would approach 7 $10 million. 8 Q Well, I'm going to ask you to go through in terms 9 of what you funded outside of this specific litigation 10 here. 11 MR. FUGATE: And I'll do it now, Judge, and 12 see if we can get through that quickly. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q We've heard about a man named Mr. Wollersheim. 15 Did you fund any of his litigation against the Church of 16 Scientology? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q And approximately how much, if you recall, did 19 you provide to Mr. Wollersheim? 20 A To Mr. Wollersheim directly, at the present time 21 he owes me about $700,000. 22 Q And did you secure that in any way? 23 A Well, first it was -- there was, you know, a loan 24 agreement in connection with both the amounts that were 25 advanced that he ended up owing the 700 million -- $700,000
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 21 1 on. And there was a filing, a UCC-1 filing, against -- in 2 the state of California against his judgment that he 3 expected to collect from the Church of Scientology, which I 4 now understand he's collected. 5 Q Actually, has it been interpled to the Court? 6 A Sorry, interpled into the Court. I don't think 7 he's actually got hold of the money yet. 8 Q Now, have you provided any money to fund FACTNet 9 litigation? 10 A Yes, I have. 11 Q And approximately how much was that, sir? 12 THE COURT: FACTNet is actually a 13 corporation -- 14 MR. FUGATE: I should -- let me ask that, 15 Judge. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q What -- at the time you were funding FACTNet -- 18 what was FACTNet, for the Court's benefit? 19 A Well, FACTNet was a group that -- an 20 anti-Scientology litigation group that was set up. That 21 was its original purpose, that it was to sell its services 22 to help other people who wanted to litigate against 23 Scientology. 24 It evolved -- mainly because nobody was 25 interested in paying what they were selling, paying for
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 22 1 what they were selling -- it evolved into sort of a 2 straight anti-cult group, mainly anti-Scientology. And 3 then after a settlement agreement back in 1989 that Stacy 4 Brooks and I entered into with the Church of Scientology, 5 it became more of a general sort of anti-cult enterprise. 6 Q And to your knowledge, who put together FACTNet 7 to sell its services to anti-Scientology litigation? 8 A Principally Lawrence Wollersheim. In addition, 9 there was another gentleman named Robert Penny. 10 THE COURT: Just once again, FACTNet, is 11 that a corporation or a nonprofit corporation or a 12 for-profit corporation? 13 THE WITNESS: It's a -- 14 THE COURT: I don't know the answer. 15 THE WITNESS: -- Colorado nonprofit 16 corporation. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q And I think I asked you, do you recall 20 approximately -- well, you say that you negotiated the 21 settlement to end the FACTNet litigation. What was that 22 settlement, sir? 23 A Well, FACTNet had been sued by Religious 24 Technology Corporation, or I've heard it referred to as 25 "Center" here, but I'm not sure whether it's Religious
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 23 1 Technology -- RTC. RTC -- or, FACTNet had published some 2 of the Church's copyrighted materials on the Internet and 3 got sued for it. And this litigation was ongoing I think 4 from 1995 through 1999. 5 And when -- when I was the president of FACTNet 6 and Stacy Brooks was a member of the board of directors of 7 FACTNet, we wanted to climb out from under that litigation 8 that was hanging over FACTNet's head. And we agreed -- we 9 worked out a settlement agreement with the Church of 10 Scientology or RTC and agreed to a stipulated judgment in 11 the amount of I believe $1 million in the event that 12 FACTNet violated copyrights in the future. That would be 13 this -- 14 Q Did that include a stipulated injunction to no 15 longer post copyrighted -- 16 A Yes, it did. 17 Q -- church material? 18 A That was part of the whole arrangement, yes. 19 Q And the copyrighted material, to your knowledge, 20 had it been stolen from the Church and then published? 21 THE COURT: Who paid the million dollars? 22 THE WITNESS: No, well, it's only -- it was 23 a stipulated judgment, so if FACTNet did it again, 24 automatically a judgment of $1 million would be 25 entered against them.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 24 1 MR. FUGATE: Liquidated damages, Judge. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, liquidated damages, I'm 3 sorry. 4 THE COURT: I'm confused. I thought we were 5 getting to how much money he had spent to fund 6 anti-Scientology litigation, and now I'm hearing 7 something -- that's not it? 8 MR. FUGATE: Well, this is part of -- I'm 9 just taking him through the various things to get to 10 the case -- 11 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 12 MR. FUGATE: -- the ones that he's funded. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q And tell us, did you actually, if you can recall, 15 expend in your own funds with regard to FACTNet, your 16 participation with FACTNet. 17 A Well, it -- probably 300 to 400 thousand dollars. 18 And that would -- that would include monies that were paid 19 to, you know, people like Jesse Prince while he was working 20 there. 21 Q And did you come to meet a lawyer by the name of 22 Dan Leipold, we've heard about in this case? 23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q And did you -- what was his -- or, what was he 25 doing as you came to know him as a lawyer?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 25 1 A I believe I first encountered him when he -- I 2 think he was representing FACTNet in that FACTNet 3 litigation. 4 Q Okay. Did you provide any funds to Mr. Leipold 5 that you could tell us about? 6 A Yes. He was with a law firm when he was doing 7 this FACTNet litigation called Hagenbaugh & Murphy, and -- 8 MR. FUGATE: Did you get that, Madam Court 9 Reporter? 10 THE REPORTER: I have something down. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Okay. Can you spell that, if you know? 13 A H-a -- 14 Q Besides needing glasses, I think I need my -- 15 A H-a-g-e-n-b-a-u-g-h and Murphy, M-u-r-p-h-y, I 16 think. 17 Q And I interrupted you. 18 A And Mr. Leipold and two of his partners -- well, 19 Hagenbaugh & Murphy weren't exactly pleased with the status 20 of the Scientology/anti-Scientology litigation that Leipold 21 was involved in. You know, very little money was coming 22 into the firm, and a lot of contingency things were being 23 done and costs weren't being paid, you know. So his firm 24 wasn't happy as far as I could understand. 25 And he wanted to go off and set up his own law
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 26 1 firm, which he did with -- and this is sometime in 1998, I 2 believe it was. He wanted to set up his own law firm with 3 a man named Donohue, Bob Donohue and Kathy Shipe, who were 4 also involved -- well, Kathy Shipe was involved in the 5 Scientology aspect. 6 And so I loaned him $180,000, which -- you know, 7 to get his law firm off the ground to continue his, you 8 know, anti-Scientology litigation work. 9 Q Was that sort of the purpose of your funding to 10 Mr. Leipold? 11 A Well, that's what he wanted it for, and, you 12 know, that's what I gave it to him for. And then I also 13 have given him since then at least another $320,000. 14 Q So approximately $500,000? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And did you -- in funding him, did you get any 17 loan agreements with him? 18 A Before answering that, let me go back to -- I 19 forgot to answer your question about FACTNet. Oh, no, I 20 did, about the amount of money, I'm sorry. 21 Yes. The -- there was a loan agreement covering 22 that initial $180,000, which was disbursed in two amounts, 23 I believe. 24 Q And so at the present time he still owes you some 25 amount of money that has not been repaid to you?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 27 1 A The bulk of that 180,000 has not been repaid. 2 There have been a few small installments paid on it, but it 3 is still largely fully outstanding. 4 Q And the 320? 5 A That's fully outstanding. 6 Q Now, we've heard about a Keith Henson. Have you 7 funded -- or, can you tell us who Keith Henson is first. 8 My question then would be if you funded him. 9 A Keith Henson has been, you know, a very vocal 10 critic of Scientology. He's been -- I guess he's, you 11 know, one of the more outlandish critics in some respects. 12 And he was involved in some litigation with Scientology I 13 think in '97 or '98, which I provided funding to his 14 attorney. 15 Q Was that copyright infringement? 16 A It was, yes. 17 Q What happened with that case, if you know? 18 A Mr. Henson was found guilty of copyright 19 infringement and I believe was -- for one single count of 20 copyright infringement, and a jury awarded $75,000 to 21 Religious Technology Center and court costs, which are 22 several hundred thousand dollars, I think. 23 Q To your knowledge, that was a jury trial? 24 A Yes, it was. 25 Q And how much did you provide in funding to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 28 1 Mr. Henson? 2 A Somewhere in the neighborhood of 27 or 28 3 thousand, I think. His attorney was Graham Berry. 4 Q We heard about him yesterday. Is this also the 5 same Mr. Henson that we heard was convicted of terrorist 6 threats against the Church and then fled to Canada? 7 THE COURT: You know, the truth of the 8 matter is your question here has to do with how much 9 has he paid, and so we don't need to repeat all 10 these -- what these other suits are about. 11 MR. FUGATE: I'll move on. 12 THE COURT: Thank you. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Now, did you come to know in the critic community 15 an individual by the name of Arnie Lerma? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And did you provide funding -- 18 THE COURT: Larma? 19 MR. FUGATE: It's A-r-n-i-e, Lerma, 20 L-e-r-m-a. 21 THE COURT: Thank you. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Did you provide funding to him? 24 A Yes, I did. It was principally, you know, 25 personal living-type expenses. He was involved in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 29 1 litigation. You know, RTC again sued him for copyright 2 infringement. 3 Q And approximately how much did you provide in 4 funding to Mr. Lerma? 5 A Sixty -- 60,000 for sure at that time. 6 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, may I approach the 7 clerk? 8 THE COURT: You may. 9 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 MR. FUGATE: Do you have Defendant's 13 Exhibit 81 up there -- it's this exhibit -- Judge? 14 THE COURT: I do, yes. 15 MR. FUGATE: This may be helpful, really. 16 As I said, it's kind of like a score card, if you 17 will. 18 THE COURT: I have it, but you see I'm 19 stacking up stuff looking for the affidavits -- 20 MR. FUGATE: I'll see if I can get a couple 21 of copies. 22 I'll get a copy of that, and we can move on. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: You may.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 30 1 MR. FUGATE: I'll just give you a courtesy 2 copy. You've already got it. It's Exhibit 81. 3 And I'll give one to Mr. Minton. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 MR. FUGATE: Just bear with me a moment, 6 your Honor. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q The Arnie Lerma that we were just talking about, 9 was he on the advisory committee of the Lisa McPherson 10 Trust? 11 A Yes, he was. 12 Q The Keith Henson that we talked about a moment 13 ago, was he on the advisory committee of the LMT Trust? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And we talked about Mr. Wollersheim. Was he on 16 the advisory committee of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 17 A He was. 18 Q Now, you see on the advisory committee a man by 19 the name of Gerry Armstrong? 20 A Right. 21 Q Was he -- did you come to know Mr. Gerry 22 Armstrong? 23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q And was he another individual who you provided 25 funds to to -- well, did you provide funds to him?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 31 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q And do you recall approximately how much you 3 provided to him? 4 A 100,000, at least. 5 Q And did he file some sort of lawsuit against 6 David Miscavige individually? 7 A He did. 8 Q And did he use the funds, to the best of your 9 knowledge, to fund that litigation? 10 A He did. 11 Q And is Mr. Armstrong, the other fellow that you 12 saw in the transcripts that has fled to Canada for -- 13 THE COURT: Counsel, we all know who he is. 14 Why do we care if Mr. Minton knows? It's already in 15 the record. 16 MR. FUGATE: Moving right along, Judge. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Do you see, under the office and staff of the 20 LMT, Grady Ward, Webmaster and security director? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q Did you provide any funds to Mr. Grady Ward? 23 A Yes, I have. 24 Q And do you recall approximately how much that 25 was?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 32 1 A I really would be hard pressed to tell you on 2 that because, you know, I have a continuing financial 3 commitment or support that I give to Grady Ward. 4 Q You mean continuing up to the present time? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Can you give us a ballpark of what 7 you think -- and I realize it would be a ballpark -- to the 8 present time, you've given him funds or provided funds to 9 Mr. Ward? 10 A Around 100,000. That's a ballpark. I'm not -- I 11 don't think it's less. 12 Q And so we can separate this out, if you can, are 13 these monies in addition to any salaries that you may have 14 paid any of these individuals through the LMT? 15 THE COURT: I'm not sure what we're doing 16 here. Are you talking about money he's given to 17 people -- 18 MR. FUGATE: Provided -- 19 THE COURT: -- the corporations that he's 20 been involved in that paid salaries? I think things 21 are quite different if someone has given me a salary 22 I've earned versus someone gives me something as 23 either a loan or a gift. 24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the reason I've asked if 25 all these folks were involved or are involved in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 33 1 anti-Scientology litigation is to establish that he's 2 funded them, and I just asked him the question in 3 addition to that -- 4 THE COURT: Okay, in addition to that. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Did you pay monies to them in the form of some 7 sort of salary agreement through the LMT? 8 A Well, the only one we talked about so far that 9 received any sort of salary arrangements from LMT I believe 10 is Grady Ward. 11 Q Now, in addition to these individuals that we've 12 talked about, did you fund any litigation in Germany where 13 you caused the Church of Scientology or Scientologists to 14 be sued there? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And approximately how much did you provide in 17 funding to Germany? 18 A Approximately $100,000. 19 Q And did you fund similar litigation in France? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And how much did you provide in funding to France 22 for litigation against the Church or individuals within the 23 Church? 24 A About $300,000. 25 Q Now, the monies that we've talked about up to the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 34 1 present are monies that have been funded to other 2 litigation other than directly related to this Lisa 3 McPherson wrongful death lawsuit and the LMT. Is that 4 correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Now, sir, how much, if you can tell us, have you 7 loaned to the Estate to cover expenses in the wrongful 8 death lawsuit? 9 A 2 million -- 10 MR. DANDAR: Objection, leading. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. That is an issue in 12 this case, and at that point, I don't think you ought 13 to be saying -- that's an issue. I'd like to hear him 14 say what it was. 15 MR. FUGATE: I'll back this out and go 16 through it. 17 THE COURT: It's kind of late now, so just 18 go on to your next question. 19 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to answer? 20 THE COURT: It's all right. 21 MR. FUGATE: I think an easier way to do 22 this, Judge, is I'm going to -- and I've given copies 23 to counsel -- 24 May I approach, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: You may.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 35 1 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to do this a little 2 bit more expeditiously. 3 Our next number is? 4 And, Judge, I think that these are -- 5 maybe -- these are copies of all of the checks that I 6 have. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. DANDAR: And, Judge, I would object and 9 cite the three Second District Court opinions on money 10 financed to the -- me or the estate as being totally 11 irrelevant. 12 THE COURT: I would agree with you on that, 13 and I do agree with you on that, with this one 14 exception. This is all over the place. We all know 15 what it is, we all know the checks, we all know what 16 the amount of the checks are. You know, it's kind of 17 like the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. It's a 18 little late. 19 MR. DANDAR: The horse is out of the barn. 20 THE COURT: The horse is out of the barn. 21 However, if you wish for me to not permit inquiry into 22 this line of questioning because of that opinion, I 23 will do that. 24 That kind of leaves us at an awkward spot, 25 doesn't it, because there's been an allegation of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 36 1 perjury here. And if I say, "Well, it's irrelevant," 2 well, then we don't go there. So, you know, as I 3 said, this is my suggestion to you, Counsel, and it's 4 for your protection. My suggestion to you is to let 5 the checks in, discuss the money, but have me continue 6 to protect you, which I don't think is out of the 7 barn -- at least it isn't out of my barn -- as to what 8 you've spent. Because I think that's kind of the 9 issue here, and I really think we need to sort it out 10 to make a decision on this case, always remembering 11 that the Second District said that it's irrelevant. 12 MR. DANDAR: That's right. 13 THE COURT: So it's up to you. Do you want 14 them kept out or do you want us to go ahead and get 15 through this, just that part, the money? 16 MR. DANDAR: No, we can go ahead and get 17 through it, but I still want to have my standing 18 objection. 19 THE COURT: I'll keep it out. You have an 20 objection that it's irrelevant, and it is irrelevant. 21 And that is, of course, something that I would expect 22 you to argue legally at the conclusion of this case, 23 because the Second District has said this is 24 irrelevant. And if you don't want any questions 25 asked, then I won't ask any. But, I mean, I'm aware
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 37 1 of the fact of what Mr. Minton says and I'm aware of 2 what you said because another judge has ruled that its 3 admissible and because it's in. So if you want me to 4 kind of decide that on your credibility versus others' 5 credibility, I've almost got to hear it. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. 7 THE COURT: It's not as if the world doesn't 8 know. 9 MR. DANDAR: I understand that. But even in 10 the other case the Second District said it's 11 irrelevant. 12 THE COURT: That is true. So do you want me 13 to keep all this out? Because I will. 14 MR. DANDAR: Actually, right now I'm at a 15 loss of what to do. I mean, my credibility is on the 16 line, and you need to make a decision on it. 17 THE COURT: It is, because even if this -- 18 you know, irrelevance goes to perjury. 19 MR. DANDAR: Right. 20 THE COURT: It's irrelevant; therefore, it 21 can't be perjury. The allegations are sort of if you 22 encouraged somebody to lie under oath, whether it's 23 perjury or not, it would seem to me that that would be 24 important as to whether or not you should be removed 25 as counsel.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 38 1 MR. DANDAR: It's important to me, so let's 2 go ahead. 3 THE COURT: All right. But I will not -- I 4 think that's a good decision. However, I will protect 5 you as to the expenditure of those funds, what they 6 were spent for, because that's what I look to the 7 Second District in saying that the Church is not 8 entitled to know how much of that you have left to 9 litigate your lawsuit. 10 MR. DANDAR: Correct. Thank you. 11 MR. FUGATE: If it's of any service to the 12 Court, I don't intend to ask any questions about 13 expenditures. 14 THE COURT: We've been through that, and I 15 indicated we're not going to go through there. And 16 that includes, by the way, what accounts Mr. Dandar 17 may have put this money through. 18 MR. DANDAR: So then we're not going to be 19 discussing the facts of the checks. 20 THE COURT: We're not going to discuss 21 whether you put it in your trust account, whether you 22 put it in a personal account, versus whether you put 23 it in an operating account, because from that very 24 information they could glean which ones you thought 25 you needed to spend for the expenditure of this
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 39 1 lawsuit versus some personal matter or -- I don't know 2 what they would gain from it. But the deal is they're 3 not supposed to know that, according to the Second 4 District, so I'm not going to allow inquiry there -- 5 to say nothing of the fact that I don't think it 6 matters. That's a Bar matter. That's not a matter 7 for me, so it doesn't matter anyway. 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, if you'll bear with me a 9 moment, I just -- 10 THE COURT: I'm sure to the Bar it becomes a 11 relevant matter, but it isn't necessarily a relevant 12 matter here. 13 MR. FUGATE: What I've done, Judge, I 14 marked -- I'll give you a courtesy copy of the checks 15 I'm going to introduce through Mr. Minton. And I've 16 marked in the corner what I believe is the accurate 17 number from the clerk, and they're sequential by date. 18 And I'll hand a copy, if I may, up to Mr. Minton. 19 MR. DANDAR: Do you have numbers on them? 20 (Mr. Fugate and Mr. Dandar spoke off the 21 record.) 22 THE COURT: Did you give a copy to counsel? 23 MR. FUGATE: Yes, I have. I was just going 24 to explain the numbers to him, because he didn't have 25 the numbers.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 40 1 (Mr. Fugate and Mr. Dandar spoke off 2 record.) 3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Now, I have handed to you, Mr. Minton, a group 6 of -- copies of checks, and I'd ask you to look through 7 these exhibits that are marked 93A through 93I and ask if 8 you can identify these copies of the checks. 9 A Yes. These are all checks that I've given to 10 Mr. Dandar. 11 Q There are one -- 93A, 93B, 93C -- 12 THE COURT: Counsel, they're A through I. 13 MR. FUGATE: No, I was going to ask him on 14 personal accounts. I just lost my place here. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q -- 93D, 93E, and F are on your own bank account. 17 Is that correct? Personal accounts, I mean. 18 A Yes, they are. 19 Q And I think it is 93G and I, if I have the right 20 letters there, which appears to be UBS bank drafts or bank 21 checks? 22 A Checks. 23 Q Checks, okay. I'm going to ask you to explain 24 that because I need to know. 25 A Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 41 1 Q Are those exhibits the checks that you provided 2 to and gave to Mr. Dandar? The UBS checks. 3 A Yes. 4 Q One in the amount of $500,000, which is G, and 5 one in the amount of 250,000? 6 A That's right. 7 MR. FUGATE: I would move all of these 8 checks into evidence, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Subject to the sort of 10 objection, whatever it is, I'm going to allow it. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Now -- 13 THE COURT: In other words, he's not 14 waiving -- 15 MR. FUGATE: I understand. 16 THE COURT: -- his -- the benefit that he's 17 obtained under the Second DCA orders in this case. 18 Rulings, sorry. Not orders; rulings. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Mr. Minton -- 21 THE WITNESS: Can I just ask your Honor's 22 permission for something? I have a little -- if you 23 don't mind if I bring it up, I keep it in my 24 calculator, and it's a list of these checks and the 25 dates.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 42 1 THE COURT: That's fine. How do you keep 2 checks in a calculator? 3 THE WITNESS: No, in the calculator case. 4 THE COURT: Oh. 5 THE WITNESS: It just slides in there, 6 that's all. 7 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Well, I think that where we are in the 10 progression here is with regard to the UBS -- copy of the 11 UBS check which is Exhibit 93G and a copy of the UBS check 12 which is 93I, could you tell the Court what these two 13 copies represent? In other words, what is a bank check so 14 that we know what we're talking about here? 15 A Well, just to clarify, you used the term "draft." 16 Q I know nothing about -- 17 A Okay. But these are not drafts. 18 Q Okay. 19 A In Europe they might refer to them as drafts. 20 But, your Honor, you can see, just like, you know, your 21 checks, along the bottom there is what's called MICR 22 encoding, which has your account number, the check number, 23 and the ABA number of the bank on which the check is 24 payable. And in this case, the -- up in about right here 25 on the middle part, you see 1 dash 2 --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 43 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 A -- over 210. That's sort of the ABA code for 3 Chase Manhattan Bank. And that number is an MICR encoding 4 down here, 02100021. 5 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, would you repeat 6 that number? 7 MR. FUGATE: Go ahead. Repeat the number. 8 THE REPORTER: Would you repeat the number. 9 THE WITNESS: 021000021 [sic]. 10 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 11 A That -- this means that this check is, you know, 12 just like any other check in the United States, that it's 13 payable at some U.S. bank, like, you know, Fleet or 14 Fidelity, in my case, or SunTrust or whoever here. So it's 15 a U.S. bank check, even though it's issued by Union Bank of 16 Switzerland. 17 You know, so you deposit this -- a draft you 18 would normally actually go to your bank and send it for 19 collection. This -- this check can be deposited into your 20 account just like any other check. 21 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 22 EXAMINATION 23 BY THE COURT: 24 Q Well, I don't know -- I guess I'm just still, as 25 I said, not being an international financier -- how does
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 44 1 one pick up the bank -- I mean, can I just -- in other 2 words, this -- I have to have this account right here in 3 this country. 4 A Well -- 5 Q That's my -- that would be my U.S. account 6 number. 7 A No. That's what's called the ABA number, the 8 American Bankers Association number. It's a designation 9 within the Federal Reserve system in the United States. 10 Each bank has a separate ID -- 11 Q Right. 12 A -- and that's their ABA number. 13 Q So this is your bank in New York? 14 A No. That's the Chase Manhattan Bank in New York. 15 Q Okay. That's right here -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q -- "bank paid to," the Chase Manhattan Bank? 18 A No, it's payable at Chase Manhattan Bank. 19 Q Payable at. 20 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have -- 21 THE COURT: Wait. I'm not done. 22 MR. FUGATE: Well, I have a blowup that may 23 be easier to read. I don't know if -- 24 THE COURT: That isn't going to help me a 25 bit.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 45 1 BY THE COURT: 2 Q This number right here that I've got my thumb on 3 right here, is that the Chase Manhattan Bank number? 4 A That's their designated -- designated ID number 5 in the Federal Reserve system. 6 Q Right. Just like on my checking account, that 7 number down there -- I bank at Mercantile Bank. That's -- 8 on my checks, that's the Mercantile Bank? 9 A Yes. They would have their ABA number on that 10 check also. 11 Q Right. Out here to the right is my account 12 number. 13 A That's right. 14 Q At the Mercantile Bank. 15 A Correct. 16 Q Is that the same here? In other words, that's 17 the account number at the Chase Manhattan Bank? 18 A No. Well, that would be the one to the right of 19 the ABA number -- 20 Q Right. 21 A -- would be the account number of Union Bank of 22 Switzerland, Zurich, at Chase Manhattan Bank in New York. 23 Q That is the bank of Switzerland's account 24 number -- 25 A Account number.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 46 1 Q -- at the Chase Manhattan Bank? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Okay. So the bank in Switzerland in essence 4 sends this to the -- payable to the bank in Chase 5 Manhattan, and then somebody goes in and picks up the 6 funds? 7 A No -- 8 Q How do you -- I just don't get it. 9 A No, okay. I'll explain it. You know, it's just 10 like you write a check -- 11 Q I'm going to pick up a telephone and call 12 Switzerland and tell them -- I've got to have an account 13 somewhere. 14 A Let's just establish one thing. Let's say that 15 you call up your bank -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- and you want them to issue you a check to Ken 18 Dandar. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And, you know, they'll debit your account and 21 make a check just like this. You know, of course it won't 22 say UBS; it'll be Mercantile Bank. 23 Q Right. 24 A And, you know, they'll either mail it to Ken 25 Dandar or they'll give it to you so you can give it to Ken
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 47 1 Dandar. And then he just deposits -- deposits it into his 2 account, you know, collects it like a normal check. 3 Now, if you're asking in this instance, you know, 4 how does the -- you know, so UBS in the case I just showed 5 you is just like you are. They're the ones who own the 6 account. It's their account at Chase Manhattan Bank. They 7 have their money in it, and so they can write a check on 8 that account, just like you can write your check on 9 Mercantile Bank. 10 So -- but I think what you're -- 11 Q How do I know this money is from you? Just 12 because you tell me? Or is there something here that tells 13 me that? 14 A Well, there's nothing on there that tells you 15 that. 16 Q Okay. 17 A And I'm -- we'll no doubt get to that at another 18 point. But -- 19 Q Okay. But if I look at this, I don't know -- I 20 have no way of knowing by looking at this bank check, the 21 UBS checks, that those checks are from you. 22 A Right. You know, other than the circumstantial 23 evidence of me producing these checks and saying, you 24 know -- 25 Q I understand that. And there's a difference of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 48 1 opinion between the two of you all, and I'll resolve that. 2 But I'm just trying to say from my standpoint, if I were to 3 get this check, know nothing about it, I would not be able 4 to look and tell who this came from. 5 A Right. That's true. 6 Q If I knew, I knew. But if I don't know, I can't 7 look on here and -- 8 A That's correct. 9 THE COURT: Okay. That helps me. Thanks. 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Now, if you look through those checks -- I heard 13 you say you have it calculated. Did you total the total 14 amount that those checks represent? 15 A No, I didn't. But I'll do it. 16 Well, 1.1 million, exclusive of the UBS checks, 17 and then add another 750,000 to that -- if my addition was 18 correct in my head. 19 Q So that comes to a total of 1.850 -- or, 20 1,850,000? I can't even deal in numbers. 21 A Yes, I think that's what it -- unless I -- let me 22 just quickly . . . 23 Yes, that's 1.1 plus 750. 24 Q And did you provide any other money to the Lisa 25 McPherson -- well, to Mr. Dandar or the Lisa McPherson case
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 49 1 by check that are not included in the checks that you have 2 before you there? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And can you tell the Court how much that was? 5 A What did we say this came to, 1.1? 6 Q I think -- well, the -- 7 THE COURT: 1.850. 8 A Oh, yes, 1.850. Another 200,000 on top of that. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q And can you tell us whether that was in the form 11 of one check or more checks? 12 A I'd have to compare these to my own list, if you 13 want me to do that. 14 Q Well, I think my question is going to be, Are 15 there checks that we don't have copies of here before us 16 today in court that you have access to or have checked for, 17 looked for? 18 A I'm sure there must be -- 19 Q All right. 20 A -- because there's another $200,000 worth of 21 checks. 22 Q All right. Well, let's explain then how you come 23 to that conclusion so the Court can understand what we're 24 talking about. 25 A Well, there's no dispute that these are the two
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 50 1 Swiss checks, and those amounts are included in my total of 2 $2,050,000. The first check is October 6th, '97; the 3 second check is February 5th, '98; the third check -- and, 4 I'm sorry, I should be referring to the exhibit numbers -- 5 93C is 100,000. We're missing a check here in October 1998 6 for 100,000, and we're missing a check here December -- 7 dated December 1st, '98, for 100,000. 8 THE COURT: I'm sorry, can you tell me 9 again? Two checks and both in the amount of 100,000? 10 THE WITNESS: One 10/17 -- although I can't 11 read the date very clearly here -- 10/17/98, and the 12 other is December 1st, '98. 13 THE COURT: You say they're missing, which 14 means you don't have them. Is that right? 15 THE WITNESS: Well, they're not in these two 16 piles that were given to me. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: All the others are, you know, 19 accurate according to my own records. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q What does the total amount come to then that you 22 have provided to Mr. Dandar or the Lisa McPherson case? 23 A Well, the total that I have provided is 24 $2,050,000, and it has all been provided to the Estate of 25 Lisa McPherson. And I believe Mr. Dandar's own filings in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 51 1 this court will support that. 2 THE COURT: The truth of the matter is you 3 just need to answer the questions. They'll have 4 plenty of opportunity to ask you things that obviously 5 you want to say. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 THE COURT: So you just answer the question. 8 A So all the money has been loaned to the Estate of 9 Lisa McPherson through its attorney, Ken Dandar. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q And we'll come back around to documents at a 12 later point here. But let me ask you, with regard now to 13 the Lisa McPherson Trust -- leave aside the Estate and go 14 to the Trust -- can you tell us if you've been able to 15 calculate how much money you have spent in setting up and 16 running the Lisa McPherson Trust? Again, ballpark, if you 17 can estimate. 18 A Two, two and a half million. 19 Q Now, there's been -- well, did you fund a movie, 20 an anti-Scientology movie, called The Profit? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q And can you tell us what amount you -- "you," 23 Mr. Minton -- funded for that movie. 24 A Close to $2 1/2 million, 2.47 or something. 25 Q And did you pay money directly to the employees
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 52 1 on a monthly basis of the LMT? And do you have an estimate 2 of what that was? Two questions, I know. 3 A I don't have an estimate of what that was, but 4 that would be included in that overall figure of the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust. 6 Q And we've heard testimony from Ms. Brooks. Can 7 you tell us, if you know, kind of a ball park figure of 8 what you believe you've provided to her, Stacy Brooks. 9 A It's a little bit hard to calculate, but, you 10 know, at least 350,000, I'd think. 11 Q And do you know a Jesse Prince? 12 A Yes. 13 Q How much money did you provide to Mr. Prince 14 either as an employee of LMT or as an employee of 15 Mr. Dandar? 16 A At least 300,000. 17 Q Was there some sort of, to your understanding, a 18 monthly amount that went to Mr. Prince, either from you or 19 through Mr. Dandar? 20 A Yes. $5,000 a month basically is what -- you 21 know, is what Jesse said he required. That was sort of the 22 case before he started working for Mr. Dandar, that was 23 what both Jesse Prince and myself told Mr. Dandar when he 24 started working with Mr. Dandar, and that's the case up 25 until the beginning of last month.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 53 1 Q Do you know what month -- we're in May. Would 2 that be through April of 2002? 3 A Yes. Jesse would have been paid at the beginning 4 of April -- and he was -- to cover the month of April. 5 Q Did you provide any other monies to -- other than 6 the $5,000 a month that we've talked about -- when did that 7 start, so we can keep track of that, to the best of your 8 recollection, the $5,000 a month for Mr. Jesse Prince? 9 A Well, sometime in -- you know, maybe at the 10 beginning it wasn't exactly 5,000 a month. I think Jesse 11 referred to this in a deposition as sort of walking-around 12 money. But, you know, so he might get 15,000, you know, 13 one month and then two months later get another 5 and then 14 10 or something of that nature. 15 So, you know, it's been ongoing since Jesse 16 contacted me and Stacy Brooks back in 1998, in July, about. 17 Q Did you have anything to do with Mr. Prince 18 moving to the Tampa Bay area to participate in the Lisa 19 McPherson litigation? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And can you tell the Court what that was. 22 A Well, I -- you know, I'll call it a loan, but the 23 chances of my ever getting repaid are pretty slim, money 24 for his down payment on his house -- 25 Q For --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 54 1 A $50,000. 2 Q -- for him to purchase a house in Pinellas 3 county? 4 A Yes. I mean, you know, Jesse was somebody that 5 was sort of particularly under Stacy Brooks' wing. You 6 know, he was somebody who needed somebody to take care of 7 him, and Stacy highly encouraged me to do that and make 8 sure that others did that. 9 Q I'm not any good at math, but I'm going to ask 10 you, approximately how much of the monies that you've 11 discussed do you believe in your mind were directed 12 particularly to the litigation of this wrongful death case 13 in Florida, out of the total amount? I think you said 14 about 10 million that you provided in funding for 15 anti-Scientology funding. 16 A Well, I would be hard pressed, but, you know, to 17 some extent, you know, Jesse's remuneration for at least 18 '99 and most of 2000 could be construed as being part of 19 that. You know, The Profit, the movie, certainly an 20 element of that could be considered influential relative to 21 the wrongful death case. 22 You know, a good part of the money that went into 23 the LMT, at least for the first year, clearly was an 24 element to this wrongful death case. Moneys that have gone 25 to Ms. Brooks over the last few years have been relevant to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 55 1 the wrongful death case. 2 Q And then the monies that you've provided 3 directly -- 4 A Directly to the Estate, you know, obviously. So, 5 you know, it's -- it would be hard for me to give you a 6 ballpark figure. I'm not a -- an accountant, cost 7 accountant, to figure this out. But, you know, it's very 8 substantial. 9 Q Excuse me. As we move along, I'll try and do 10 this calculation here. But let me ask you this then. 11 THE COURT: You all ought to bring this here 12 movie in, because I just don't get it, how this movie 13 relates to the Lisa McPherson case at all. 14 MR. FUGATE: Can I ask him to -- 15 THE COURT: You can. But, I mean, frankly, 16 maybe you ought to produce it so I can take a good 17 look at it see and if I see anything about the Lisa 18 McPherson case in it. 19 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'll ask him. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Mr. Minton, the Court has asked about -- 22 EXAMINATION 23 BY THE COURT: 24 Q Has it ever been released to anybody? 25 A Yes, it has been released, your Honor. Just to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 56 1 give you a little bit of background on it, you know, there 2 is nothing in the movie that is about the Lisa McPherson 3 case. What the movie is about is basically an 4 anti-Scientology movie. And the only place that it's ever 5 been released is here in Clearwater, Florida -- or, in 6 Clearwater, Florida. And I think it's also been shown in 7 Tampa. 8 Q Where did it play, I guess would be important. I 9 mean, I don't know, when you say "play," does it play at a 10 movie house -- 11 A Yes. 12 Q -- some legitimate theater? 13 A Yes, it was a movie theater. I don't remember 14 the name of it. It was some sort of movie house in 15 Clearwater. It was also shown in a movie theater here in 16 Tampa, but I think that was for -- primarily for press to 17 review it. And it has been reviewed, for example, in the 18 St. Petersburg Times and the Tampa Tribune. And it's 19 also -- it's also been shown in France at the Cannes Film 20 Festival in May 200 -- March or May of 2000. 21 THE COURT: I'm going to assume that 22 whatever happened in France is not related to the Lisa 23 McPherson case. 24 THE WITNESS: Right. But -- 25 THE COURT: I don't think anybody in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 57 1 Tampa -- unless somebody from this area went over to 2 Tampa to see this film, would have any bearing on it. 3 THE WITNESS: Right. 4 THE COURT: It may have some bearing on some 5 person who may have seen this movie in Clearwater if 6 they knew that this was an anti-Scientology case and 7 they came in -- film, I'm sorry, and they came in to 8 be on the jury pool in the Lisa McPherson case. But 9 other than that scenario, how is this related to the 10 Lisa McPherson case? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, it's exactly right in 12 the way you talked about it in terms of its ability -- 13 no guarantee that it would do it, but its ability to 14 affect the pool of potential jurors in this area. 15 THE COURT: Well, then I presume -- that's 16 why I say I need to see it. I need to see if it says 17 something like, "This is a movie about Scientology and 18 how they killed Lisa McPherson," or whether it was a 19 fictional movie or whatever it was, to see what 20 bearing, if any, it could possibly have. 21 I mean, I know what you all say, but, I 22 mean, I can't -- I can't assume that, you know -- I 23 could just be a regular old citizen going into the 24 theater to see it, and I could tell you whether it had 25 a thing to do with the Lisa McPherson case or whether
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 58 1 a juror on the street would know that it did. I mean, 2 I don't know what this thing is about, but I heard 3 something about Mr. Dandar playing the part of an FBI 4 man or something. 5 THE WITNESS: Right. 6 THE COURT: And I'm thinking, What in the 7 world is this movie about? 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I assure the Court I'll 9 get back to that -- 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. FUGATE: -- and I will ask questions 12 directed to that. But for the sake of where we were, 13 I think you can answer -- unless you have any other 14 questions on it at this point. 15 THE COURT: No, I do not, just that I do not 16 want you to assume that testimony that this has 17 anything to do with the Lisa McPherson case has in any 18 way been shown to me. 19 MR. FUGATE: I don't assume that, Judge. 20 THE COURT: I'm telling you that. Even 21 despite what he says, until I can see the movie or -- 22 you know, he says it doesn't have anything to do with 23 the Lisa McPherson case, but it's anti-Scientology. 24 So, I mean, I've got -- what is that? I mean, I don't 25 know. Does it say this is anti-Scientology, or is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 59 1 this just inferred? 2 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, maybe I can help. 3 We had some hearings about this in front of Judge 4 Beach because there was some discovery that was 5 attempted to be taken of Ms. Greenway and 6 Mr. Alexander, who were the creators of the movie. 7 And Judge Beach did actually see the movie. He wanted 8 to see it as part of this discovery. 9 And he made a finding that this movie 10 definitely did concern Scientology. It was a movie 11 that was pretty derogatory of Scientology. And the 12 issue that we've been arguing, of course, for some 13 time is not that the movie concerns the, quote, Lisa 14 McPherson story, of course, but that it's intended to 15 infect the jury pool and make the jury pool or 16 potential jurors feel that Scientology is bad or 17 fraudulent or evil. 18 And it's a pretty horrible movie. We don't 19 have a copy of it, but I'm sure you can get it from 20 Mr. Dandar or Mr. Dandar's assistant, who is, you 21 know -- 22 THE COURT: Does anybody know how many 23 people in Clearwater ever saw it? 24 MR. MOXON: Yes. 25 THE COURT: I mean, was this at an AMC
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 60 1 Theater that has folks that go in all the time? Or 2 was it at one of these coffeehouses that nobody goes? 3 MR. MOXON: It was represented by -- it was 4 represented by Mr. Lirot, actually, who was in his 5 discovery representing Mr. Alexander and Ms. Greenway, 6 that it was shown to over 2,000 people at a theater in 7 Clearwater. They made some contract with a theater in 8 Clearwater, some kind of a dinner theater or dinner 9 club theater. And they showed it to 2,000 people in 10 Clearwater, not far from the Fort Harrison, actually. 11 THE COURT: Well, one would think that a 12 movie that I'm -- that I would go to see would be a 13 movie that would be shown to a -- 14 What? 15 (A note was handed to the Court.) 16 THE COURT: -- would be -- in the middle of 17 my hearing -- would be seen by more than 2,000 people. 18 I mean, to me, some movie that's seen by 2,000 people 19 is not a movie at all. It's some sort of a homemade 20 something or other that goes to some sort of road 21 theater that -- I mean, I don't know, that to me isn't 22 much of a movie. I mean, if I go see a movie, it's 23 something the world has seen. You know, I don't know. 24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, let me give you the 25 coming attractions here. I'm going to get back to it,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 61 1 and I'm going to hopefully, through some questions, 2 establish at least how I perceive the relevance. But 3 I just wanted to identify the funding so we have it 4 broken down, and you can decide whether or not you 5 believe it in some way is involved in the case or not. 6 But I was just trying to break down the funding, if I 7 could. 8 THE COURT: I understand. But you had just 9 asked him a question about how much of this 10 $10 million has to do with the Lisa McPherson case, 11 and simply to let you know that I do not buy this just 12 yet. I thought I would let you know -- 13 MR. FUGATE: I heard it. 14 THE COURT: -- that I will not buy that that 15 movie has a thing to do with the Lisa McPherson case. 16 Now, maybe it does. Maybe you can establish it. To 17 date, I ain't buying it. 18 MR. FUGATE: I heard you, your Honor. 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Two names were mentioned there with regard to the 22 movie, and we might as well get those while we're there: 23 Peter Alexander and Patricia Greenway. Is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And on the Exhibit 81, under the board of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 62 1 directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust, I see Peter 2 Alexander and Patricia Greenway. Were they put on the 3 board by you? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And are those the same two individuals that were 6 involved in the production of the movie, The Profit? 7 A Yes. Alexander is the other 50 percent owner of 8 Courage Productions. I'm the 50 percent owner, and Courage 9 Productions is the one who produced the movie. And 10 Greenway works for Courage Productions. 11 THE COURT: Okay. I have a call from a 12 judge who has an apparent emergency, and I guess I'm 13 the acting chief, to say nothing as the person who can 14 help him with this. So I'm going to have to break. 15 Now, it doesn't make much sense that we come 16 back -- it's 20 minutes to 12:00. This will probably 17 take me 20 minutes, so let's go ahead and break for 18 lunch. How about 1 o'clock? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 20 THE COURT: We'll be in recess. 21 (The luncheon recess was taken at 22 11:43 a.m.) 23 ____________________________________ 24 25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 1, Page 63 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 18th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25