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           1        IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
                                  CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
           2

           3

           4
                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
           5    Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,
           6

           7              Plaintiff,

           8    vs.                                     VOLUME 2

           9    CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
                SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
          10    JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
          11
                          Defendants.
          12
                _______________________________________/
          13

          14

          15    PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
          16
                CONTENTS:           Testimony of Robert S. Minton.
          17
                DATE:               May 17, 2002.  Afternoon Session.
          18
                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
          19                        St. Petersburg, Florida.

          20    BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
                                    Circuit Judge.
          21
                REPORTED BY:        Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
          22                        Deputy Official Court Reporter,
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
          23

          24

          25

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           1    APPEARANCES:

           2    MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
                DANDAR & DANDAR
           3    5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
                Tampa, FL 33602
           4    Attorney for Plaintiff.

           5
                MR. KENDRICK MOXON
           6    MOXON & KOBRIN
                1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
           7    Clearwater, FL 33755
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
           8    Organization.

           9
                MR. LEE FUGATE and
          10    MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
                ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
          11    101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
                Tampa, FL 33602-5147
          12    Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
                Organization.
          13

          14    MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
                RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
          15    740 Broadway at Astor Place
                New York, NY 10003-9518
          16    Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
                Organization.
          17

          18    MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
                740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
          19    New York, New York  10003
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
          20    Organization.

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25

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           1    APPEARANCES:  (Continued)

           2
                MR. BRUCE HOWIE
           3    5720 Central Avenue
                St. Petersburg, Florida.
           4    Attorney for Robert Minton.

           5

           6
                ALSO PRESENT:
           7
                Mr. Rick Spector
           8    Ms. Sarah Heller
                Mr. Ben Shaw
           9    Mr. Brian Asay
                Ms. Joyce Earl
          10

          11

          12

          13

          14

          15

          16

          17

          18

          19

          20

          21

          22

          23

          24

          25

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           1              THE COURT:  We are ready to go now, I hope.

           2         You may proceed.

           3              MR. FUGATE:  Thank you, your Honor.  May it

           4         please the Court.

           5                    DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED

           6    BY MR. FUGATE:

           7         Q    Mr. Minton, we've gone through generically the

           8    funding that you can recall in terms of your

           9    anti-Scientology litigation funding.  And let me ask you

          10    this question.  Did there come a time when you wanted to

          11    direct your attention to Florida.  And, if there was, could

          12    you tell us how that happened?

          13         A    I'm --

          14         Q    I don't know if that makes sense.

          15         A    I'm not really understanding your question.  I'm

          16    sorry.

          17         Q    Well, did there come a time when you came to

          18    Florida and became engaged in any litigation in Florida?

          19              MR. FUGATE:  I'm trying not to lead, Judge.

          20         A    Well, you know, I was already engaged in

          21    litigation in Florida before I came here with respect to the

          22    wrongful death case.

          23    BY MR. FUGATE:

          24         Q    Well, then let me ask you this.  How did that

          25    happen?  How is it you were already engaged in litigation in

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           1    Florida?

           2         A    Well, back in October of 1997 -- well, you know, I

           3    have to go back a little bit.  You know, obviously sometime

           4    in early 1997, I think it was February, this case was filed.

           5    And in March, March 9 of 1997 --

           6         Q    "This case" being the wrongful death case?

           7         A    The wrongful death case, yes.  I met Mr. Dandar

           8    for the first time at a meeting at the Holiday Inn in

           9    Clearwater out on Route 19.  He was having a meeting there

          10    with Lawrence Wollersheim.  And I was in Wollersheim's room

          11    while this meeting took place.  And I didn't participate in

          12    this meeting other than sitting there listening.

          13              You know, Wollersheim had some expertise in terms

          14    of litigating against Scientology.  I think now he's been

          15    involved in it over 20 years.  And Mr. Dandar was interested

          16    in Wollersheim's slant on how he could, you know, deal with

          17    this wrongful death case.

          18              And so I just listened to this conversation.

          19         Q    How is it that you happened to be in Florida in a

          20    Holiday Inn room with Larry Wollersheim?

          21         A    Well, this was a picket that was arranged in March

          22    of '97 to --

          23         Q    A picket of what?

          24         A    A picket of the Church of Scientology.  You know,

          25    critics from -- you know, not a lot of critics, but a few

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           1    people came to -- to Florida for this picket.  And the

           2    reason I remember the date of March 9 is this was the day

           3    there was an article in the New York Times, a lengthy

           4    article in the New York Times, about Scientology's tax

           5    exemption.  And so that is how I got here for this picket.

           6    You know, I met Dandar.

           7              I didn't have any further contact with Dandar

           8    until about October of 1997 when, Mmm, you know, I contacted

           9    him because I was aware that, you know, he was the attorney

          10    on this case.  I had been previously financing this

          11    Wollersheim case, which was, you know, a really kind of slow

          12    boat to nowhere, it seemed, at the time.

          13              And, you know, in terms of the focal point of any

          14    sort of anti-Scientology activities, you know, this case

          15    seemed like, you know, the flag -- sort of the banner of the

          16    whole anti-Scientology movement.  And I offered to give

          17    Dandar -- you know, to the estate, $100,000 in October 6, I

          18    think it was, of 1997.

          19         Q    That would be the first check that we referenced a

          20    few moments ago, which is the October 6, 1997 --

          21         A    93A, I think, right?

          22         Q    93A?

          23         A    Yes.  That is correct.

          24         Q    Now, had you -- and if you could date it, fine.

          25    Did you -- when you say that this was sort of the banner

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           1    case as far as you were concerned, did it have any appeal to

           2    you for that reason?  Or if it did, could you explain?

           3         A    Well, yes, it did.  I mean, it had appeal.  The

           4    appeal was that, you know, here was a chance to really nail

           5    Scientology.  And, you know, this is -- you know, it looked

           6    like -- you know, the way it had been portrayed up to this

           7    point, it looked like this was an open and shut case, you

           8    know, it wasn't going to take forever to deal with it.  And,

           9    you know, the absolute maximum amount of negative publicity

          10    that could possibly be had anywhere would be through this

          11    case.

          12         Q    Negative publicity against --

          13         A    Against Scientology.

          14         Q    And did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar

          15    about what sort of return you thought the case may generate

          16    in terms of dollars?

          17         A    Not right at that point.  Later in December of '97

          18    I did.  And, you know, he was talking in the neighborhood of

          19    eighty to a hundred million.

          20         Q    This is what Mr. Dandar told you he was expecting

          21    the case would bring?

          22         A    What he expected the case was worth.

          23         Q    And do you recall whether you made similar

          24    comments about that to the press, or postings?

          25         A    I did.

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           1         Q    And I'm assuming at that point in history you

           2    believed that was true?

           3         A    Mmm, yes.  I did.

           4         Q    Now, when -- well, let's say did there come a time

           5    when you entered into any sort of understanding or agreement

           6    with anyone with regard to your funding the banner case, as

           7    you called it?

           8         A    Well, you know, starting at the beginning,

           9    October 6, 1997 when I sent this check off to Mr. Dandar,

          10    you know, he -- he told me at the time, before I sent the

          11    check, that he had discussed -- that he had checked with the

          12    Florida Bar about this, that this was totally okay, you

          13    know.

          14              You know, I checked with my own attorney in Boston

          15    before sending off this check.  He said, "That's fine.

          16    Mr. Dandar said you can't have any control over the

          17    litigation, you know.  You won't receive any confidential

          18    information.  Fine."

          19              And he put that in a letter, you know, after he

          20    had talked to the Florida Bar.

          21              And the terms of that agreement were that these

          22    would be loans to the estate of Lisa McPherson, and they

          23    would be repaid only if the estate of Lisa McPherson

          24    collected enough money in this case to cover their basic

          25    costs and return to me the moneys that I advanced to cover

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           1    the costs in the case, exclusive of any interest.  There

           2    wasn't any interest element to it.

           3         Q    And that agreement, as you have just described it,

           4    who was a party to that communication, as you just described

           5    it to the Court?

           6         A    Just Mr. Dandar and myself, you know.  But he said

           7    that he had, you know, discussed this with his client, Dell

           8    Liebreich, and that, you know, it was okay from her

           9    standpoint.

          10              I think he told me at the time that he needed to

          11    get consent from his client, and he did, according to what

          12    he told me.

          13         Q    And I'm jumping ahead, I know.  But did there come

          14    a time when you had any discussions with his client, that

          15    is, the personal representative, Dell Liebreich?

          16         A    Yes.

          17         Q    And can you tell us about that -- I know I'm

          18    jumping ahead -- but just for the purpose of where we're at

          19    here?

          20         A    Mmm, well, there were a number of discussions

          21    which were principally around the time that -- that the

          22    family would come down here for the annual pickets against

          23    Scientology, you know, on or about the anniversary date of

          24    Lisa McPherson's death, which was December 5th.

          25              And there were -- there were another couple of

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           1    times, I'm not sure what time of year they were, they were

           2    fairly hot -- one of them was a fairly hot time of the year,

           3    and they were staying in a hotel in Tampa over near

           4    Mr. Dandar's office.

           5              And I remember that was the first time that -- the

           6    reason I remember that one is that was the first time Ann

           7    Carlson or Lee Skelton had seen the autopsy photos, the

           8    complete set of autopsy photos, which they asked me to show

           9    them.

          10         Q    You had them?

          11         A    Yes.  This was after they were released.  This

          12    wasn't prerelease dates.

          13         Q    And for the record, Ann Carlson and Lee Skelton

          14    are who, to your knowledge?

          15         A    They are Dell Liebreich's sisters.  And I think

          16    they are -- the three of them and one other person, who I

          17    don't think I have met, are the beneficiaries of the estate.

          18         Q    My question was, though, back to the question, was

          19    did there come a time when you had an agreement with either

          20    Dell Liebreich or other family members about --

          21              MR. DANDAR:  Objection.  Leading.

          22              THE COURT:  Go ahead.

          23    BY MR. FUGATE:

          24         Q    -- about your funding the litigation, and whether

          25    or not there would be any return?

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           1              MR. DANDAR:  Same objection.

           2              THE COURT:  Overruled.  You can say yes or no

           3         to that.

           4         A    Yes.

           5    BY MR. FUGATE:

           6         Q    Can you describe to the Court what that

           7    understanding or agreement was?

           8         A    Well, are you just talking about the loans?

           9         Q    Let me just leave it with a yes.  And I'll come

          10    back to that.  I want to move ahead.

          11         A    Okay.

          12              THE COURT:  Well, I would like to know the

          13         answer to that.

          14              MR. FUGATE:  All right.

          15              THE COURT:  This agreement that you indicated

          16         you had with Mr. Dandar about the money that you

          17         gave and what would be returned to you over the

          18         money that you gave to the estate --

          19              THE WITNESS:  Yes?

          20              THE COURT:  -- did you have any agreement with

          21         the -- Ms. Liebreich or anybody else about that?  Or

          22         was that just between you and Ken?

          23              THE WITNESS:  Well, that was just between me

          24         and Mr. Dandar at that time, when we first entered

          25         in it.

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           1              But he said, you know, he had to get consent

           2         from his client to -- to do this, to enter into

           3         this, to accept any money from anybody who wasn't a

           4         part of the family to finance this case.

           5              THE COURT:  And I think somewhere in the

           6         materials, perhaps it's something that has been

           7         filed in this case by the Church, there was a

           8         letter -- wasn't there a letter that he sent to this

           9         witness?

          10              MR. FUGATE:  There is -- there is a letter that

          11         Mr. Dandar sent.  And then there is a handwritten --

          12              THE COURT:  There is a handwritten letter from

          13         Mr. Minton to Mr. Dandar.  I think they call it the

          14         Kleenex box or something.

          15              THE WITNESS:  Right.

          16              THE COURT:  Then there is a letter from

          17         Mr. Dandar to Mr. Minton.  Do you know what I'm

          18         talking about?

          19              THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do, your Honor.  I do.

          20              THE COURT:  That letter -- I take it in that

          21         letter he -- whatever it was he said in that letter,

          22         when you got it, did that comport with the

          23         understanding that you thought you and Mr. Dandar

          24         had made?

          25              THE WITNESS:  I thought it was a little skimpy,

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           1         but I was willing to live with it, yes, the way it

           2         was.

           3              MR. FUGATE:  I'm going to come back and go

           4         through those at a point, Judge, unless --

           5              THE COURT:  All right.

           6    BY MR. FUGATE:

           7         Q    Did you -- did you consider -- how did you

           8    consider your money that you were putting into the case from

           9    your perspective, sir?

          10         A    Well, you know, I -- I looked at it as -- as a way

          11    to further the entire anti-Scientology activities that I was

          12    involved in.

          13         Q    And did you look at it as an opportunity to get a

          14    return on your investment?

          15              THE COURT:  You really do have to be careful

          16         about leading here.  You asked him what he thought

          17         of it and he told us.  Your next question needs to

          18         be, "Anything else?"  Don't be suggesting things to

          19         this witness.

          20              MR. FUGATE:  I apologize, your Honor.

          21              THE COURT:  Not especially in the areas that

          22         are at issue in this case, this hearing that I'm

          23         having.

          24              MR. FUGATE:  Well, Judge, I actually have

          25         got -- I'm going to come back to that point, and I

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           1         was just going to ask about --

           2    BY MR. FUGATE:

           3         Q    Really, what did you expect to get with regard to

           4    your funding?

           5         A    Well, as I mentioned -- you know, there were

           6    several things.  But as I mentioned, you know, the first

           7    thing is that this was the sort of flagship case to be used

           8    to illustrate how terrible Scientology was.  And certainly

           9    anyone who was anywhere near this case or ever read about it

          10    expected that this would be a huge black eye for

          11    Scientology.

          12              You know, I made a suggestion to Mr. Dandar

          13    shortly after, you know, this October 6, 1997 check, and

          14    I -- I think it was December 1 or thereabouts, at the Tampa

          15    Club in Tampa when he took me to lunch one day when I came

          16    down here for this annual picket, that -- well, because at

          17    the time, Scientology was making a lot of statements that,

          18    you know, that Ken Dandar was an ambulance-chasing attorney,

          19    and Dell Liebreich was a money-grubbing old woman that had

          20    no connections to Lisa McPherson, yet they were, you know,

          21    trying for this -- you know, the big bucks in this case.

          22              And I said, well, you know, it would make sense to

          23    diffuse that type of rhetoric that was coming out of

          24    Scientology for the estate to agree to give the bulk of the

          25    money they get, or substantial part I think is what we

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           1    talked about at that time, a substantial part of that money

           2    to an anti-cult group, especially one that was focused on

           3    Scientology.

           4         Q    Did you have anything in mind at that time?

           5         A    I did.  I mean, you know, FACTNet was an

           6    organization which I was -- had already been elected to

           7    their board of directors and went into effect from

           8    December 15, 1997, but this was back on December 1, but I'd

           9    been elected to it.

          10              And, you know, clearly in my own mind, that was --

          11    that was the target of the estate's future largesse with

          12    respect to the proceeds of this case.

          13         Q    And I interrupted you.  You had discussions with

          14    Mr. Dandar about that?

          15         A    Right.  He said this was an idea he already had

          16    and that, you know, he was going to discuss this with the

          17    family and, you know, he said he would get back to me about

          18    that.

          19         Q    Had you, by this point in time, discussed your

          20    feelings about Scientology with Mr. Dandar?

          21         A    Yes.

          22         Q    And at this point in history, what were your

          23    feelings about Scientology?

          24         A    Well, you know, I really didn't like Scientology.

          25         Q    Did you -- did you ask Mr. Dandar what his

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           1    feelings were?  Or did he share those feelings, I guess?

           2         A    Mr. Dandar, as recently as March of this year --

           3    you know, I don't think there is anybody I know who hates

           4    them more than he does.

           5         Q    Now, back in this point in time we've heard some

           6    testimony -- when I say back at this point in time, I should

           7    say, generically, I guess, there has been an exhibit that

           8    was introduced through Ms. Brooks which was her posting, I

           9    think it was described as a harassment time line --

          10         A    Right.

          11         Q    -- that came into evidence.

          12

          13              MR. FUGATE:  If I may approach the witness,

          14         your Honor.

          15              THE COURT:  You may.

          16    BY MR. FUGATE:

          17         Q    I'll ask you if you were, during this period of

          18    time, making postings of your own?

          19         A    Yes, I was, pretty much throughout the -- you

          20    know, the first postings I ever made were in October, I

          21    believe, of 1995.  And, you know, they continued to get

          22    fairly more frequent up until 2001.

          23         Q    Well, I recognize that there probably are a lot of

          24    Bob Minton postings about Scientology.  I have pulled out

          25    several and I have got them marked already as 94A through G.

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           1    And I would like, if I could, to ask you to identify at

           2    least those.  I know there are others.

           3              If you look at the first, 94A, do you recognize

           4    that as a posting that you had placed on the Internet?

           5         A    Yes.

           6         Q    And are you saying there in July of 1999 that you

           7    were recommending that, "Miscavige be hanged in effigy and

           8    burned like a common criminal.  Please come and bring your

           9    flamethrowers."

          10         A    Yes, sir.

          11         Q    See, right after that, the same date?  94B, is

          12    that another posting of yours?

          13         A    It is.

          14         Q    And similar, except you are directing it to, "John

          15    Travolta is a shill for Scientology"?

          16         A    Right.

          17         Q    And the same, 94C, is, "Hubbard will be hanged in

          18    effigy --" and is that a posting that you made, sir?

          19         A    Yes, it is.

          20         Q    And it says, "Hubbard will be hanged in effigy and

          21    burned like a common criminal," the same byline or inline,

          22    "Come bring your flamethrowers."

          23              What was the purpose of those sorts of postings,

          24    in your opinion, sir?

          25         A    Mmm, stirring up the opposition to Scientology.

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           1         Q    And if you look at 94D, was that also a posting of

           2    yours?

           3         A    Yes.  It is.

           4         Q    And I think this one is dated November of 1999.

           5    And in this one you are targeting Mr. Weinberg and

           6    Mr. Hertzberg, two lawyers in the case.  Is that correct?

           7         A    That is correct.

           8         Q    And it basically speaks for itself, I think.  But

           9    was that also a tactic that you engaged in, in this period

          10    of time that we've been discussing?

          11         A    Yes, sir.  And I would also -- just to tell you,

          12    you know, that I have apologized to Mr. Weinberg and

          13    Mr. Hertzberg about this post.

          14         Q    I understand.  I'm asking you really, taking you

          15    back in time, were these postings that you had posted?

          16         A    Yes.  Yes.

          17         Q    And then here is one dated 26 July, 1998, 94E.  Do

          18    you recognize that, sir?

          19         A    Yes.  I do.

          20         Q    Is that a posting that you posted?

          21         A    Yes, sir.

          22         Q    And it says -- would you read the two lines out to

          23    us?

          24         A    "On Sunday, Rinder calls and asks if Jesse Prince

          25    is on my payroll.  Jesse will be devastating for

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           1    Scientology.  Get ready."

           2         Q    What was the purpose of that posting?

           3         A    You know, it was sort of a "get in Scientology's

           4    face" type of posting.  You know, this was shortly after I

           5    had had some meetings with Mr. Rinder and his boss,

           6    Mr. Rathbun, in, I think it was, June and July of 1998.  And

           7    those talks broke off rather unceremoniously, I guess you

           8    would say.  And, you know, this was soon -- this post was

           9    done soon after Jesse Prince contacted Stacy Brooks and I.

          10         Q    And is this a point in time when you -- it asks if

          11    he's on your payroll.  Obviously at the time of this posting

          12    he was on your payroll.  Is that correct?

          13         A    Well, I think, you know, Mr. Rinder has had a lot

          14    longer history with Jesse Prince than I had.  And I think he

          15    probably just assumed, because he was in contact with Stacy

          16    Brooks and I, that we were paying him.

          17              And, in fact, that was pretty close to being

          18    accurate.  I mean, it pretty much started right at this

          19    time, sometime a little before this, that Jesse came up to

          20    my house in New Hampshire.  I believe he was there at the

          21    time I posted this.  And, you know, he was telling us all of

          22    the things that were -- that he thought were going to

          23    devastate Scientology, because of his previous senior

          24    position back in 1992, I guess -- sorry, five years before

          25    that.

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           1         Q    And did there come a time when you put Mr. Prince

           2    in touch with Mr. Dandar?

           3         A    Yes.

           4         Q    Do you recall when that was in relation to this

           5    posting?

           6         A    It was sometime shortly after this posting.

           7    Sometime in 1998.

           8         Q    Now, if you would, turn to 94F.  And I'm going to

           9    ask you if you recognize that as a posting that you made?

          10              THE COURT:  These are already in evidence, I

          11         take it?

          12              MR. FUGATE:  We'll move them in.

          13              THE COURT:  We probably ought to make sure we

          14         move them in if we are going to keep referring to

          15         them.  Any objection?

          16              MR. DANDAR:  No objection.

          17              THE COURT:  They will be received.

          18              MR. FUGATE:  94A through G then.  I apologize,

          19         Judge.  I should have done it one at a time.

          20              THE WITNESS:  We are on F now?

          21    BY MR. FUGATE:

          22         Q    We're on F.

          23         A    Yes.

          24         Q    That is a July of 1999 posting?

          25         A    That is a post I made.

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           1         Q    It says:  "I called David Miscavige's mother today

           2    in Clearwater," puts a phone number in, and also an address.

           3    Was that, to your knowledge, an accurate phone number and

           4    address for Mr. Miscavige's mother?

           5         A    I believed it was at the time.

           6         Q    What was the purpose of putting her telephone

           7    number and her address and identifying her as

           8    Mr. Miscavige's mother in your posting?

           9         A    Mmm, trying to piss off Scientology.

          10         Q    And when you see, down here at the bottom --

          11              THE COURT:  Well, didn't you also hope, by

          12         putting her phone number and address in there, a

          13         bunch of people would pick up the phone and call and

          14         harass her?

          15              THE WITNESS:  Well, that was part of that.

          16         That wasn't --

          17              THE COURT:  That is what normally somebody

          18         would identify somebody's phone number for, I would

          19         think.

          20    BY MR. FUGATE:

          21         Q    The closing lines are:  "David Miscavige and his

          22    criminal minions need to be on the alert that nobody's

          23    schill for his criminal cult is off limits from this point

          24    forward, not his mother, his father, his wife, him, and

          25    especially not the money lines of Scientology."

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           1              Did you write that, sir?

           2         A    I did.

           3         Q    What did you mean to cause with that posting?

           4         A    Well, you know, generally speaking, the money

           5    line -- you know, this had a lot to do with this money lines

           6    of Scientology, because within -- you know, within at least

           7    my understanding of it was that the IAS, International

           8    Association of Scientologists, was the principal group in

           9    which funds were raised by the Church that were used to --

          10    to funnel -- not funnel, but to fund the litigation that the

          11    Church of Scientology found itself involved in.

          12         Q    And the part that you say not his mother, his

          13    father, his wife or him were safe, what did that mean?

          14         A    You know, that was inflammatory.  I mean, it was

          15    rhetoric, you know.  To --

          16         Q    94G, if you would look at that.  Apparently -- is

          17    that your posting, I should ask you?

          18         A    Yes, it is.

          19         Q    Apparently, if I read it, you were asked by others

          20    that were posting on the same site what was your message.

          21    And is that what your message is that you left on her

          22    answering machine?

          23         A    Yes.

          24         Q    "Loretta, my name is Bob Minton from New

          25    Hampshire, telephone number (603)887-4145."

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           1              You have changed that by now, have you?

           2         A    No.

           3         Q    Oh, sorry.

           4         A    Still the same.

           5         Q    Strike that then.

           6              "You may not immediately recognize my name, but if

           7    you ever read the St. Pete Times, you might remember that I

           8    am Scientology's 'Public Enemy Number 1.'  I have some

           9    messages for your son Davy which I would like to pass along

          10    through you.  Therefore, please give me a call.  Thank you."

          11    End of message to Loretta.

          12              Did you write that?

          13         A    I did.

          14         Q    And did you consider yourself, at that time in

          15    July of 1999, to be "Public Enemy Number 1" for Scientology?

          16         A    I did consider that.

          17              THE COURT:  You say you did?

          18              THE WITNESS:  I did, yes.  And -- you know, I

          19         didn't make this up on my own.  I mean, I think NBC

          20         Dateline used that line, the St. Petersburg Times

          21         used that line, and a German television program used

          22         it.

          23    BY MR. FUGATE:

          24         Q    Used the line you were "Public Enemy Number 1" for

          25    Scientology?

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           1         A    Right.

           2         Q    And you were proud of that, were you not?

           3         A    At the time, I was.

           4         Q    And was it your purpose, in the postings and the

           5    other postings which we're not going to go through, to be as

           6    offensive as you possibly could?

           7         A    Generally speaking, yes.

           8         Q    And was that, sir, also, as you understood it, to

           9    be the purpose and climate of what we've heard described as

          10    the critic community?

          11         A    Yes.

          12              THE COURT:  I'm not sure what you call this,

          13         this Bob@Minton.org, is that your --

          14              THE WITNESS:  E-Mail.

          15              THE COURT:  -- your E-Mail address?  There are

          16         a lot of postings that have been provided to me

          17         throughout the hearing, some by the Church, some

          18         perhaps by Mr. Dandar, some in evidence.  I take it,

          19         when they say at the top "Bob@Minton.org," that

          20         would be you?  I mean, that is your --

          21              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, your Honor.

          22              MR. FUGATE:  May I proceed?

          23              THE COURT:  Yes.

          24    BY MR. FUGATE:

          25         Q    Now, I think you used the term you wanted to get

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           1    in Scientology's face.  Did you employ or provide funds to

           2    other people to do just that, beside yourself?

           3         A    Yes, I did.

           4         Q    Now, do you know -- or if you know, did

           5    Mr. Dandar -- was he reading your postings, if you can tell

           6    the Court?

           7         A    I would send him some of them myself.

           8              I know that Dell Liebreich had told me that she

           9    read absolutely everything that I wrote or anything that was

          10    written about me.

          11         Q    That --

          12         A    Excuse me?

          13         Q    I'm sorry, you said Dell Liebreich told you she

          14    read your postings?

          15         A    Yes, that she religiously read everything that I

          16    posted on ARS, or anything that was written about me there.

          17         Q    And for the benefit of the court, what is ARS?  I

          18    don't know if we got that.

          19         A    I'm sorry, that is -- we're into this acronyms.

          20    But it is the short version of alt.religion.scientology,

          21    that newsgroup.

          22         Q    And is that a site that is critical of

          23    Scientology, to your observation?

          24         A    Yes.  Absolutely.  I mean, that is -- that is what

          25    it is.

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           1         Q    Now, I would --

           2              THE COURT:  Although that is the same site, I

           3         believe early on in this, where we read some things

           4         where it looked like there would be one posting that

           5         was critical toward -- toward Scientology, and then

           6         there appeared to be a posting that would look

           7         like -- I'm not saying it came from the Church but

           8         it certainly came from a pro-Scientology person

           9         trying to frustrate or be critical of or whatever --

          10         in other words, it looked like these things can go

          11         back and forth, that others -- anybody can get --

          12              THE WITNESS:  It's open to anybody, your Honor.

          13         It's -- it's principally, you know --

          14              THE COURT:  The site is an anti-Scientology

          15         site, but sometimes there are those who are not

          16         opposed to Scientology who post there, as well?

          17              THE WITNESS:  Well, there are some, yes, that

          18         do that to -- you know, there are a number of, you

          19         know, current Scientologists who -- you know, if

          20         they are not drowned out, you know, they try to go

          21         on there and give their views.  They are former

          22         Church members who still believe in Scientology but

          23         practice their Scientology outside of the official

          24         organization, you know, who do the same thing.  But,

          25         you know, it's a pretty wild mob scene and it's hard

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           1         to -- you know, it's hard to get both sides of the

           2         picture.

           3    BY MR. FUGATE:

           4         Q    My question originally was did you have any

           5    discussions with Mr. Dandar about your postings over this

           6    period of time from '98, I guess, to 2000, 2001?

           7         A    Well, you know, he was aware of, you know, my

           8    activities on the Internet.  And --

           9         Q    How do you know that, sir?

          10         A    Because he -- he told me he was.  I mean, you

          11    know, after we started talking with each other, you know, he

          12    was well aware that I was pretty active on the Internet.

          13              You know, and I would -- I would always make it a

          14    point that if there was something that I thought was

          15    important to say, that I thought he should look at, I would

          16    always copy him on the message, you know.

          17              I mean, he -- at times, he said, you know, "God, I

          18    get so many messages from you.  I don't know what to do with

          19    them all."

          20         Q    Well, you were pretty prolific on the Internet,

          21    were you not, sir?

          22         A    Yes.

          23         Q    Did you make postings from the LMT when it came

          24    into existence?

          25         A    Yes, I did.

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           1         Q    From computers there?

           2         A    Yes.

           3         Q    So I would take it your postings ranged from

           4    computers there -- do you have computers at your home in --

           5         A    New Hampshire.

           6         Q    -- New Hampshire?

           7         A    Yes.  I do.

           8         Q    Do you have a laptop?

           9         A    I do.

          10         Q    So your postings would come from either laptop,

          11    home or LMT?

          12         A    Right.

          13         Q    Now, did you discuss, in your postings, the

          14    wrongful death case?

          15         A    Pretty -- pretty often.

          16         Q    And did you discuss your funding of the wrongful

          17    death case on the Internet?

          18         A    Yes.  I did.

          19         Q    And did Mr. Dandar know that, to your

          20    understanding?

          21         A    He -- he certainly did.  And, in fact, encouraged

          22    it, as far as the money was concerned, because he wanted to

          23    make sure that Scientology knew he had money.

          24         Q    To engage in battle, I guess?

          25         A    Right.

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           1         Q    Now, did you have anything to do with Stacy Brooks

           2    and Jesse Prince coming to Clearwater to work for

           3    Mr. Dandar?

           4         A    Yes.  I did.

           5         Q    Can you tell the Court what you had to do with the

           6    two of them coming.  I guess we'll start with Mr. Prince,

           7    then go to Ms. Brooks.

           8         A    Well, I told them both they needed to go down

           9    there and work with Ken Dandar.  It was -- I mean, they were

          10    getting moneys from me.  And, you know, they would have gone

          11    to Moscow, if required.

          12         Q    And at the time you told them to come here, as you

          13    say, was that, to your knowledge, their sole source of

          14    funding, your money?

          15         A    Mmm, yes.  It was.

          16         Q    And, to your knowledge, did they come to

          17    Clearwater and go to work for Mr. Dandar?

          18         A    Yes.  They did.

          19         Q    And --

          20              THE COURT:  What do you mean, go to work for

          21         him?  Are we talking here again about these

          22         consultant --

          23              MR. FUGATE:  I'm going to ask him that, Judge.

          24              THE COURT:  Well, I think going to work for

          25         somebody, being a consultant for somebody, that is

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           1         quite different.

           2    BY MR. FUGATE:

           3         Q    Let me ask you.  What did you ask them to come to

           4    Clearwater to do, as far as you were concerned?

           5         A    I mean, to do whatever Mr. Dandar wanted them to

           6    do.  You know, I didn't say go be a consultant.  Or be an

           7    expert witness.  You know, "Whatever Dandar needed you to

           8    do, you need to go down there with him and do it."

           9         Q    And did you communicate with Mr. Dandar about your

          10    direction -- or whatever it is you --

          11         A    He needed them.  He made that clear.  It was just

          12    somebody needed to facilitate getting them here.

          13         Q    And was it your understanding that he was aware

          14    they were being paid by you?

          15              MR. DANDAR:  Objection.  Leading.

          16              THE COURT:  Sustained.

          17    BY MR. FUGATE:

          18         Q    At the time they came down, you indicated they

          19    were -- both Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks were being paid by

          20    you?

          21         A    That is correct.

          22         Q    Did you ever communicate their financial status to

          23    Mr. Dandar?

          24         A    Yes.  I did.

          25         Q    And can you tell us when, where, if you recall?

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           1              THE COURT:  We're going to have to do something

           2         here.  This just -- I mean --

           3              MR. FUGATE:  I'm trying to --

           4              THE COURT:  I know, but being paid by him, I

           5         don't get it.  One of these people he was involved

           6         with romantically, and one of these people was his

           7         good friend.

           8              Now, paid by, does this mean you were paying

           9         them to do work?  Or does this mean you were

          10         giving -- apparently you must have, I assume, a lot

          11         of money.

          12              THE WITNESS:  I used to.

          13              THE COURT:  You used to have a lot of money.

          14         And were you sharing that with some person who was,

          15         I take it, very important to you, Ms. Brooks?

          16              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

          17              THE COURT:  And Mr. Prince.  Paying them.  Are

          18         you suggesting you were paying Ms. Brooks for being

          19         your companion?

          20              THE WITNESS:  No.  You know, I mean, as far as

          21         Jesse Prince was concerned, I was completely

          22         supporting him, you know.

          23              THE COURT:  Right, so you were paying him --

          24         you weren't paying him for his work for you; you

          25         were paying him -- I take it at that time he was a

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           1         friend, you had money, he didn't.

           2              THE WITNESS:  No, I wasn't paying him because

           3         he was a friend.  I was paying him because of the

           4         work he was doing.  Jesse later became a friend.

           5              THE COURT:  What were you paying him for then,

           6         before you sent him down here to Mr. Dandar?

           7              THE WITNESS:  Well, he came out and worked out

           8         at FACTNet.  He went out and worked with Dan

           9         Leipold.  You know, he came up to New Hampshire and,

          10         you know, started preparing to, you know, tell

          11         everybody all of the secrets that he learned in

          12         Scientology, especially --

          13              THE COURT:  So he was being paid then for his

          14         anti-Scientology work?

          15              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

          16              THE COURT:  Okay.  That you were asking him to

          17         do?

          18              THE WITNESS:  Right.  I mean, you know, he

          19         didn't volunteer to do this.  This is something that

          20         he got paid to do.

          21              THE COURT:  Okay.  And the same with

          22         Ms. Brooks?

          23              THE WITNESS:  Well, Ms. Brooks was very active

          24         in my anti-Scientology work.  With her, it was a

          25         little different because of our personal

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           1         relationship.  You know, I was just making sure she

           2         was taken care of financially.

           3              THE COURT:  Okay.

           4    BY MR. FUGATE:

           5         Q    Well, thanks to those questions, Ms. Brooks and

           6    Mr. Prince were being paid to conduct anti-Scientology work,

           7    I guess is the best way to describe that?

           8         A    Yes.  That would be accurate.

           9         Q    Was that -- were those facts communicated to

          10    Mr. Dandar?

          11         A    You know, I think Mr. Dandar knew -- by that time

          12    knew everything about my personal relationships and my

          13    working relationships with Jesse Prince and others.

          14         Q    Now, let me ask you this question.  When

          15    Mr. Prince came to Florida, what did you understand he was

          16    doing in Florida?

          17         A    Working for Mr. Dandar on the wrongful death case.

          18         Q    And when Ms. Brooks came to Florida, what did you

          19    understand Ms. Brooks was doing in Florida?

          20         A    Working with Mr. Dandar on the wrongful death

          21    case.

          22              MR. DANDAR:  Could we have a date about what

          23         we're talking about?

          24    BY MR. FUGATE:

          25         Q    Can you date that, sir?

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           1         A    Well, I think --

           2         Q    Start with Mr. Prince.

           3         A    If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Prince came down here in

           4    1998.  He certainly was here for a substantial part of 1999,

           5    working for Mr. Dandar.  And in the year 2000 when -- by

           6    this time, you know, the LMT is formed.  And, you know, he's

           7    working at the LMT, as well, but working for Mr. Dandar

           8    principally, you know, for the first, you know, roughly six

           9    months of the year 2000.

          10              And then I'm not sure exactly why, but Jesse

          11    Prince came back.  Instead of working every day at

          12    Mr. Dandar's office, he started at the LMT's office, and he

          13    would go over to Dandar's office on sort of an as-needed

          14    basis.

          15         Q    And how about Ms. Brooks, the same question?

          16         A    Well, she was down here sometime in 1998, more

          17    frequently in 1999, working with Mr. Dandar.

          18              And then, once she was at the LMT, you know,

          19    beginning of 2000, she was -- for the first few months of

          20    2000 she spent an awful lot of time out of the office

          21    working with Mr. Dandar.  Sort of the same thing Jesse

          22    Prince was doing.

          23         Q    Were you -- were you communicating with Mr. Prince

          24    about his work at -- with Mr. Dandar?

          25         A    Yes.

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           1         Q    And did you have an understanding whether or not

           2    Mr. Dandar knew this was going on, this communication

           3    between you and Mr. Prince?

           4         A    Yes.  We had -- in fact, we had disputes about the

           5    communication, as well.

           6         Q    And did you have communications with Ms. Brooks

           7    about the work she was doing with Mr. Dandar?

           8         A    Yes.

           9         Q    And did you understand that Mr. Dandar knew those

          10    communications were going on?

          11         A    Absolutely.

          12         Q    I think there was testimony that you I'm sure read

          13    that Ms. Brooks said that Mr. Prince and she were your eyes

          14    and ears in the office.  Is that your understanding?

          15         A    That -- that was pretty accurate.

          16              THE COURT:  Did she say Mr. Prince was?  Or did

          17         she say she was?

          18              MR. FUGATE:  Well, I may have written it down

          19         wrong, but --

          20    BY MR. FUGATE:

          21         Q    Well, let me ask you, so there is no confusion --

          22              THE COURT:  Well, he really ought to be able to

          23         tell us who he thought were his eyes and ears were.

          24         But I thought her testimony was she said she was.

          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor --

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           1              MR. FUGATE:  I was going to ask, your Honor --

           2              THE COURT:  What?  What her testimony was what

           3         he read in the transcript?

           4              MR. FUGATE:  No.  I was going to ask him his

           5         understanding.

           6              THE COURT:  What he read in the transcript?

           7              MR. FUGATE:  No, what his understanding --

           8         well, let's move on, Judge.  It would be easier.

           9    BY MR. FUGATE:

          10         Q    Now, at the time in '98 and '99 when Mr. Prince

          11    and Ms. Brooks were here in Florida, were they, to your

          12    understanding, working on any affidavits?

          13         A    Well, I know Jesse Prince was at some stage, he

          14    ended up -- I don't know whether he wrote more than one, but

          15    he certainly wrote one.

          16         Q    And in your --

          17         A    But he also was working -- I don't know whether it

          18    was while he was down here, but I tend to think it was, that

          19    he was working on affidavits for Leipold in California in

          20    connection with the Wollersheim case, or FACTNet, or Lopez.

          21         Q    And was Ms. Brooks similarly engaged with

          22    affidavits out there?

          23         A    I don't think she's written any affidavits in

          24    recent years.  But, I mean, she was, you know, active with

          25    regards to the attorneys, Dan Leipold, Ford Greene, with

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           1    regard to those cases, yes.

           2         Q    And would this be the subject -- the affidavits

           3    being written and used in litigation that you have

           4    described, would that be the subject of postings -- Internet

           5    postings by you and others in the critic community?

           6         A    Yes.

           7         Q    And were those the subject of any communications

           8    with you and Mr. Dandar?

           9              MR. DANDAR:  Leading.

          10              THE COURT:  See, the problem is he can answer

          11         that yes or no when you say "Isn't it true that," so

          12         overruled.

          13         A    I'm sorry, would you ask the question again.

          14              THE REPORTER:  "Question:  And were those the

          15         subject of any communications with you and

          16         Mr. Dandar?"

          17              MR. DANDAR:  Leading.

          18              THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, I missed the first

          19         part of what you said.

          20              THE REPORTER:  "Question:  And were those the

          21         subject of any communications with you and

          22         Mr. Dandar?"

          23              THE WITNESS:  Now I'm going to have to ask you

          24         to read the one before that, too.

          25              MR. FUGATE:  I'll try to rephrase it.

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           1    BY MR. FUGATE:

           2         Q    I had asked you were the affidavits that were

           3    being written and utilized in the other cases that you

           4    described, were those the subject of postings between you

           5    and the critic community?

           6         A    Yes.  I'm sorry.

           7         Q    Then my question was did you -- I don't even

           8    remember, whatever the last question was was my question, if

           9    you can remember that.

          10         A    I can't.

          11              THE COURT:  If nobody can remember it, it

          12         probably wasn't very important.  So why don't you

          13         move to your next one.

          14    BY MR. FUGATE:

          15         Q    Were you in communication with Mr. Dandar about

          16    how you wanted the wrongful death case litigated?

          17         A    Yes.

          18         Q    And how were you communicating your wishes to

          19    Mr. Dandar?

          20         A    Mmm, verbally.

          21         Q    Can you describe how?

          22         A    Yes.  You know, soon after the first check that I

          23    sent to him back in October of 1997, you know, I posted a

          24    message on the Internet a couple of days later and sent him

          25    a copy of it, you know, saying that, you know, I wanted

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           1    David Miscavige charged with murder.

           2              You know, Mr. Dandar -- I either heard or read him

           3    testify in this case, or maybe it was in Judge Baird's case,

           4    that he was kind of leery of me at the beginning, but when

           5    he first -- when he first got this check.  But, you know, by

           6    the time the check cleared, I can tell you that this guy was

           7    no longer leery.

           8              You know, I received from Mr. Dandar, within a

           9    month of that first check, a draft of the first amended

          10    complaint in this case, or what was to be the first amended

          11    complaint.

          12              And, you know, he was already, even in 1997,

          13    trying to add additional parties to the case, you know.  And

          14    those parties -- I'm not sure whether David Miscavige was

          15    named, or whether it was just RTC, but I remember that there

          16    was, you know, a draft that was talking about adding

          17    additional parties.

          18              And, you know, I asked Mr. Dandar, you know, after

          19    I'd sent him a copy of this posting on the Internet, as to,

          20    you know, why there wasn't any more inflammatory language in

          21    the draft.

          22         Q    Did you get a response?

          23         A    Well, this thing evolved over -- to use

          24    Mr. Dandar's term, this thing evolved over a period of a few

          25    weeks.  And he eventually put some pretty highly

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           1    inflammatory language in what ultimately ended up being the

           2    first amended complaint, including the word "murder."

           3         Q    What sort of inflammatory things did you want him

           4    to include in the complaint, from your perspective?

           5         A    Well, anything that was, you know, going to give

           6    Scientology the worst possible light, not just in the case,

           7    but just period.

           8         Q    And were you discussing your wishes with

           9    Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince?

          10         A    Well, not at that moment.  Not at that moment.

          11    Because I think I'd only met Stacy Brooks -- well, I met her

          12    after that, I believe.  But later I did, yeah.

          13         Q    And as the process evolved that you have been

          14    describing as far as communicating what you wished done, is

          15    that -- did there come a time in that process when

          16    Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince were here in Florida?

          17         A    Yes.

          18         Q    And would you communicate, through them, your

          19    wishes?

          20         A    Well, yes, I did.  And principally what those

          21    wishes were is more emphasis on the Scientology -- what I

          22    referred to as the Scientology aspects of the case.  And --

          23         Q    Did you -- did you understand, as this

          24    relationship developed, that there was a trial team?

          25         A    Yes.

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           1         Q    And who did you understand, from your perspective,

           2    was on the trial team?

           3         A    Well, Dr. Garko.  I don't believe he was on it

           4    right at the beginning when they first started coming down

           5    here.  I don't remember the dates that he sort of got

           6    involved in this.  But ultimately it was Dr. Garko,

           7    Mr. Dandar, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince.  And, you know, that

           8    was sort of the nucleus of it.  And there were others that

           9    were sort of on the edges of it, including me.

          10         Q    Did you understand Mr. Dandar to consider you part

          11    of the trial team, from your perspective?

          12         A    Well, you know, based on his sharing of

          13    information, you know, I figured that -- I mean, I think

          14    anything he shared with them he shared with me.

          15              MR. FUGATE:  May I have a moment, Judge?

          16              THE COURT:  You may.

          17    BY MR. FUGATE:

          18         Q    Did that understanding continue up into 2002, sir?

          19         A    Yes, it did.

          20              MR. FUGATE:  May I approach the witness, your

          21         Honor?

          22              THE COURT:  You may.

          23              MR. FUGATE:  I need to approach the clerk,

          24         first.  This will be Defendant's Exhibit Number 95.

          25

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           1    BY MR. FUGATE:

           2         Q    May I ask you to take a look at a copy of a

           3    document I placed before you and ask you if you can identify

           4    that document.

           5         A    Yes.  This is a letter from --

           6         Q    Well, can you identify the document?

           7         A    Yes.  I can.

           8         Q    Is this a document you received?

           9         A    Yes.  It's a copy of it.  That is correct.

          10         Q    A copy of it.  And it's two pages.  Did you get

          11    both pages at the same time?

          12         A    I did.

          13              MR. FUGATE:  I would move 95 into evidence.

          14              THE COURT:  Any objection?

          15              MR. DANDAR:  It is marked confidential.  I am

          16         surprised at counsel using a confidential document.

          17              THE COURT:  Well, it is marked confidential to

          18         this man.  I don't know why that is.  But, I mean,

          19         is he part of your trial team?  If so I'll sustain

          20         the objection.  But, if not, which I think is your

          21         position, I'll have to overrule it.

          22              MR. DANDAR:  Well, you are right, Judge, he's

          23         not.

          24              THE COURT:  Overruled.

          25

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           1    BY MR. FUGATE:

           2         Q    Did you provide this document to us, sir?

           3         A    I did.

           4         Q    And did you receive it on or about March of 2002?

           5         A    Yes, I did.  I think it came by courier.  So it

           6    probably arrived the day after this.

           7         Q    Did something come with it?

           8         A    Yes.  A telephone encryption device.

           9         Q    Had you requested a telephone encryption device?

          10         A    No.

          11         Q    Could you read the letter, please.

          12         A    "Dear Mr. Minton --" well, it starts out --

          13              THE COURT:  Why do we need this read?  Since

          14         it's an exhibit, why do we need the whole letter

          15         read?

          16    BY MR. FUGATE:

          17         Q    Does the "Re:" line indicate it was in the

          18    McPherson versus Scientology case?

          19         A    Yes.  That is correct.

          20         Q    And does it indicate that it's to -- the purpose

          21    of the device is for your use --

          22              THE COURT:  If we'll have a bunch of questions

          23         about it, go ahead and have him read it.

          24    BY MR. FUGATE:

          25         Q    Would you just read it.

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           1         A    "Dear Mr. Minton:  Allow me to reintroduce myself.

           2    We met a few years ago, prior to the deposition of Karsten

           3    Lorenzen."  K-A-R-S-T-E-N, last name Lorenzen,

           4    L-O-R-E-N-Z-E-N, pronounced Lorenzen.

           5              "I am Mr. Dandar's video production specialist.

           6    Ken has asked me to forward the enclosed telephone

           7    encryption device to your attention and request that it be

           8    used for future conversations between you and other members

           9    of the trial team.

          10              "While I cannot guarantee this to be a hundred

          11    percent solution, I do expect it to go a long way toward

          12    keeping 'their' noses out of our business.

          13              "Ken has also asked me to find out from you how

          14    many other individuals on your end will be needing these

          15    devices and to facilitate their distribution.

          16              "The invoice enclosed is for our cost and for the

          17    cost of shipping.

          18              "Please feel free to contact me if you have any

          19    questions.

          20              "Very truly yours, Rick Spector."

          21         Q    And on the second page, sir, there is a note.  Can

          22    you read the note?

          23         A    The handwritten note on the invoice?

          24         Q    Yes.

          25              THE COURT:  Well, he needs to identify that.

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           1    BY MR. FUGATE:

           2         Q    Well, yes, can you identify that was the note on

           3    the invoice when you got it?

           4         A    Yes.  This was the invoice that came with that

           5    letter.  And this was the handwritten note that was on it.

           6    And I believe it was in blue ink.

           7         Q    Can you read what it says?

           8         A    "You may wish to use money order to preclude

           9    trace."  Underlined.  Then Rick Spector's initials.

          10              THE COURT:  Why?  Did you use this thing?  I'm

          11         not sure what it is, but I guess it is a phone that

          12         scrambles things that maybe folks on a wire tap

          13         couldn't hear?

          14              THE WITNESS:  That is right.

          15              THE COURT:  So did you believe the Church of

          16         Scientology had placed an illegal wire on your phone

          17         or Mr. Dandar's phone?

          18              THE WITNESS:  Well, I -- I didn't think so.

          19         But Mr. Dandar felt so.

          20              THE COURT:  Why did you use it then?

          21              THE WITNESS:  Well, I never used it, number

          22         one.  But just let me explain.

          23              Back in February when Mr. Dandar came up to New

          24         Hampshire for this weekend meeting, you know, just a

          25         week or two before this letter, I mean, even coming

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           1         from the airport, when I picked Mr. Dandar up, he

           2         starts telling me about how, you know, the dome

           3         light in my car could be used for a bugging device

           4         because it would provide constant power.  And, you

           5         know, he was totally of the belief that he was being

           6         bugged by Scientology, and that if he was being

           7         bugged, for sure I was being bugged.

           8              So this -- this encryption device was -- it was

           9         really for a specific purpose, you know.  Dandar

          10         wanted to talk about the money that was going to

          11         come, and he wanted this thing so that nobody knew

          12         about it.

          13              And, you know, I didn't ask for this phone

          14         encryption device.  When it came, it didn't work.

          15         It had been taken out of the original box, it had

          16         been put in by the factory and changed into some

          17         other box.  Perhaps Mr. Spector mixed it up or

          18         dropped it on the floor.  And I had to send it back

          19         to the factory to get it to work.

          20              Mr. Dandar bought a similar device for his

          21         phone at the same time.  His didn't work, either,

          22         because of the PBX system he had in his office.  And

          23         his secretary sent it back to the factory, as well;

          24         but she didn't send it by overnight mail, she sent

          25         it regular mail.  And so when I got mine back from

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           1         the factory, mine was working, but he -- it took him

           2         a while before he got his back.  And, you know, by

           3         then, we had already dealt with the issue of the

           4         money and it was pretty late.  And I have never used

           5         it since.

           6              THE COURT:  But I assume even if you want it

           7         for a very specific purpose, that is, talking about

           8         the money, the only reason why you and I want to

           9         have a phone conversation about money, and

          10         presumably nobody has illegally put the bug on our

          11         phone, when I talk on the phone, it would be

          12         perfectly fine, nobody would know about it but you

          13         and me.

          14              THE WITNESS:  I assume so.

          15              THE COURT:  So I presume there must have been

          16         some thought there was an illegal wire tapping going

          17         on here.  And I certainly get that same information

          18         from the -- from reading Ms. Brooks' posting about

          19         the harassment, that there --

          20              THE WITNESS:  Right.

          21              THE COURT:  -- appeared to be people knowing

          22         your every move, the insinuation being someone was

          23         listening to your phone calls.

          24              THE WITNESS:  Well, you know, what we

          25         discovered, there are a lot easier ways to do that,

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           1         you know, to find out, you know, how people move

           2         around, you know, where they're going.  I mean, it

           3         has been our experience that this is not so

           4         difficult to find out.  And -- and especially when

           5         you have somebody close to you who is providing

           6         information that would enable people to monitor your

           7         movements more closely.  And that is a much more

           8         common thing than this phone tap thing which

           9         Mr. Dandar was concerned about.  And I genuinely --

          10              THE COURT:  Come on, Mr. Minton.  You, too,

          11         were concerned that your phones were being bugged,

          12         weren't you?

          13              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.

          14              THE COURT:  You never were?

          15              THE WITNESS:  I thought about it at times.

          16         But --

          17              THE COURT:  And Ms. Brooks wasn't, either?

          18              THE WITNESS:  She was not concerned about it.

          19              THE COURT:  Okay.  So neither you nor

          20         Ms. Brooks ever believed your phone was being

          21         illegally tapped by the Church of Scientology?  Is

          22         that what you're telling me here today?

          23              THE WITNESS:  Mmm, I didn't say there was never

          24         a time we didn't believe it.  But, your Honor, we

          25         purchased a very expensive piece of equipment that

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           1         would help us to determine if there were bugs down

           2         here in this office in Florida.  We hired outside

           3         people to come in and check.  And I say "we," it

           4         wasn't me doing this.  This was a concern of

           5         everybody who was around here.

           6              THE COURT:  So you weren't concerned, but yet

           7         you hired people to come in and sweep your place?

           8              THE WITNESS:  Well, let me tell you,

           9         Mr. Dandar's private eye, Mr. Dandar's private eye,

          10         Ray Emmons, swore up and down Ken Dandar's office

          11         was bugged, our office was bugged.  We got people to

          12         come in and check it out.  There was never any bugs

          13         found, when everybody was sure there were bugs.  We

          14         even bought an expensive piece of equipment that

          15         could detect these types of things.

          16              When the LMT closed down, that equipment was

          17         sent up to my house in New Hampshire.  I have never

          18         used it.

          19              You know, there is nothing I have ever said on

          20         the telephone about the Church of Scientology that I

          21         wouldn't expect to end up in the New York Times.

          22         You know, I have got nothing to hide from them.

          23              THE COURT:  Okay.  I just wondered why we were

          24         sending out the encryption devices.

          25              THE WITNESS:  Well, as I said, your Honor, I

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           1         didn't request this encryption device.  Mr. Dandar

           2         told me he was going to get these, on the telephone,

           3         the day before they were sent.  I said fine.

           4              THE COURT:  Okay.

           5    BY MR. FUGATE:

           6         Q    What did you understand the notation "You may wish

           7    to use a money order to avoid a trace" mean?

           8         A    To preclude trace.  Well, you know, I just thought

           9    that was a pretty strange statement at the time for

          10    Mr. Spector to have written.  I mean, it was obviously --

          11    you don't want Scientology to find out you are paying for

          12    this or that we're buying these things, so maybe you want to

          13    use some sort of untraceable money to do it, or untraceable

          14    document -- you know, instrument.

          15         Q    Do you know Rick Spector?

          16         A    I -- as the letter said, I have met him a few

          17    years before.  He wasn't somebody that I was familiar with,

          18    other than his name.

          19              But he was -- you know, in addition to being a

          20    videographer, as he says here, he's also Mr. Dandar's

          21    security consultant and private investigator, in addition to

          22    Mr. Emmons.

          23         Q    Do you see him present in the court today?

          24         A    Yes.

          25         Q    Where is he?

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           1         A    He's to the right of Mr. Dandar, as I'm sitting.

           2              THE COURT:  I take it we can assume that he is,

           3         indeed, part of Mr. Dandar's trial team.

           4              MR. DANDAR:  Mr. Spector?

           5              THE COURT:  Right.

           6              MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  Although he's an independent

           7         contractor.

           8              THE COURT:  Pardon me?

           9              MR. DANDAR:  He's an independent contractor.

          10    BY MR. FUGATE:

          11         Q    Now, on the subject of phones, when the LMT was

          12    formed, were there phones utilized to communicate among the

          13    LMT folks?

          14         A    Yes.

          15         Q    And what sort of phones were they?

          16         A    They were Nextel phones, you know, the little flip

          17    kinds.

          18              MR. FUGATE:  While we're looking for that,

          19         Judge.

          20    BY MR. FUGATE:

          21         Q    Did you, in your relationship with Mr. Dandar,

          22    assist him in his website preparation or anything to do with

          23    his website?

          24         A    Yes.

          25         Q    And what did you do?

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           1         A    Well, I just -- you know, I didn't do much.  He --

           2              MR. FUGATE:  May I approach?

           3              THE COURT:  You may.

           4              THE WITNESS:  Can I continue?

           5              MR. FUGATE:  I'm going to give you an exhibit

           6         to take a look at.  You can go ahead.

           7         A    Well, he wanted a domain in his own name.  And so

           8    I registered Dandarlaw.com, I believe, and Dandar.com.  Yes,

           9    I see Dandar.law.

          10              MR. DANDAR:  Relevance.

          11              THE COURT:  Are you addressing me, Counselor?

          12              MR. DANDAR:  Relevance, Judge.  Sorry.

          13              THE COURT:  All right.  Relevance?

          14              MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, I think it shows an

          15         association between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar.  And

          16         it shows, as the contact -- administrative contact

          17         for Dandarlaw.com.

          18              THE COURT:  I don't know what this is.  Do

          19         lawyers have their own websites these days?

          20              MR. FUGATE:  What it is, it's attached, the

          21         website that lists the law firm and talks about the

          22         lawyers.  It --

          23              THE COURT:  Is this something lawyers --

          24         lawyers have?

          25              MR. FUGATE:  It's something that lawyers have,

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           1         as I understand it, your Honor.

           2              THE COURT:  Okay.

           3              MR. FUGATE:  I never had one.

           4              THE COURT:  Nothing here regarding Lisa

           5         McPherson?

           6              MR. FUGATE:  No, except that it's registered by

           7         Mr. Minton.  The contact point is Bob@Minton.org

           8         which you made reference to before.

           9    BY MR. FUGATE:

          10         Q    Let me ask you, Mr. Minton, was there a purpose in

          11    trying to get a website started for Mr. Dandar?

          12         A    Well, Mr. Dandar wanted a domain.

          13              THE COURT:  I don't see -- I'm not very smart

          14         about this stuff.  What is a domain?

          15              THE WITNESS:  You know, when you

          16         have www.lisatrust.net, the domain is the Lisatrust

          17         part.  Dandarlaw is the domain.  So it would

          18         be www.dandarlaw.com.  So he can have his E-mail at

          19         Dandarlaw.com or whatever he wanted.

          20              But he didn't know how to go about registering

          21         a domain.  So I registered it for him.  Also as I

          22         said, another one, Dandar.com.

          23              THE COURT:  I kind of tend to agree.  I think

          24         it is kind of obvious Mr. Dandar and this man were

          25         friends.  He needed help doing some of this, this

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           1         man had some expertise, and he did it for him.

           2              I'm going to let it in.  But the truth of the

           3         matter is I'm not sure what the relevance is.  So

           4         I'll let it in.

           5              MR. FUGATE:  I just offered it for the -- for

           6         the association and the contact, your Honor.

           7              THE COURT:  Am I right about this, at this

           8         point in time when you were doing this, you-all

           9         established some sort of friendship?

          10              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  It was just purely a favor

          11         to him.

          12              THE COURT:  Right.  This was not -- this was

          13         not the Lisa McPherson case or anything like this;

          14         this was a friend that wanted a website or domain?

          15              THE WITNESS:  He wanted a domain.  And I just

          16         did it for him.

          17              THE COURT:  So --

          18              THE WITNESS:  I mean, I paid for it, you know.

          19         It wasn't a big deal, whether he reimbursed me or

          20         not.  But --

          21    BY MR. FUGATE:

          22         Q    How much does something like that cost?

          23         A    Mmm, I think it's like $40 or $50 a year.  I don't

          24    know, he had it maybe three years.  After our last

          25    deposition, I transferred the administrative contact to

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           1    Mr. Dandar -- technical contact.  I'm sorry.

           2         Q    I presume the bill, as well?

           3         A    No, I didn't, actually.  But Mr. Rosen or

           4    Mr. Moxon was making a big deal out of this so I transferred

           5    the technical contact to Mr. Dandar.

           6         Q    Now, I had asked you about the Nextel phones you

           7    used.  And --

           8              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, these are the Nextel bills.

           9         And I think maybe what I'll do is wait until the

          10         break, give them to the clerk, I'll give a copy to

          11         Mr. Dandar, and come back and ask questions about

          12         that.

          13              THE COURT:  What are they?

          14              MR. FUGATE:  These are the Nextel cell phone

          15         bills.  And they're going to be a little bit

          16         involved in going through.

          17              THE COURT:  So, in other words, there are going

          18         to be dates and phone calls we're going to have to

          19         refer to these?  Is that the purpose?

          20              MR. FUGATE:  Yes, your Honor.

          21              THE COURT:  All right.

          22              MR. FUGATE:  But I'll come back to them.

          23              THE COURT:  Well, do you want to do it now if

          24         we're to that, and go ahead and get them all in

          25         and --

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           1              MR. FUGATE:  It probably would be a good

           2         time --

           3              THE COURT:  A good time to take a break?

           4              MR. FUGATE:  Yes.

           5              THE COURT:  Well, it has been an hour and

           6         fifteen minutes.  I guess nobody seems to mind when

           7         we take a break, so we'll be in recess fifteen

           8         minutes.

           9                 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

          10              THE COURT:  All right.

          11              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, you actually have in front

          12         of you the original -- or the file copy of the

          13         records.  And as I suspected when I looked back

          14         there, I'm a copy short.  So I'm going to ask a

          15         couple questions and move to another area.  And then

          16         over the break I'll --

          17              THE COURT:  These are the clerk's copies?  The

          18         originals?

          19              MR. FUGATE:  Yes, I'll get additional copies

          20         made because --

          21              THE COURT:  I'd just as soon, unless I really

          22         need those, not have that stack.

          23              MR. FUGATE:  Well, I don't have one either.

          24              THE COURT:  Okay.

          25              MR. FUGATE:  So I'm going to move through this,

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           1         then move on to another area.  And I have given

           2         Mr. Dandar a copy.

           3              THE COURT:  Okay.

           4              MR. FUGATE:  And it's marked as Defendant's

           5         Exhibit 97, I believe.

           6              THE COURT:  Right.

           7    BY MR. FUGATE:

           8         Q    Mr. Minton, did you receive a subpoena for your

           9    Nextel phone records?  I'm going to ask you to look at the

          10    first paper that is pulled up there.  Actually, pull

          11    everything that is sticking up.  That is what I'm going to

          12    ask you about.  Nextel, for your records, I should say.  I'm

          13    sorry.

          14         A    Yes.

          15         Q    Does this subpoena appear to be for your Nextel

          16    phone records, if you look at the yellow part back there?  I

          17    think it is on the second or third page.

          18         A    Yes.

          19              MR. FUGATE:  May I approach the witness?

          20              THE COURT:  Yes, you may.

          21         A    I see it, yes.

          22    BY MR. FUGATE:

          23         Q    Okay.  Would you look at the face pages and see if

          24    you can identify the Nextel bill as it starts out?  Do you

          25    see that?

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           1         A    Yes.  I see it.

           2         Q    And can you identify that as copies of the Nextel

           3    phone records that were subpoenaed by the subpoena -- or

           4    copy of the subpoena that is there?

           5         A    Yes.  It appears to me to be that.  Yes.

           6              MR. FUGATE:  Unless there is an objection, I

           7         would move the composite exhibit in, and I'll just

           8         ask a couple questions and move on, and then come

           9         back to it if I need to, Judge, when I have more

          10         copies of the individual --

          11              THE COURT:  Any objection?

          12              MR. DANDAR:  I object to relevance.  I need to

          13         have -- to make sure that this witness -- if these

          14         phone records are in his name or somebody else's

          15         name.

          16              MR. FUGATE:  Well, I'm going to ask to look at

          17         the first four months and see who the phone was

          18         registered to.  And then if you look past that,

          19         you'll see it is --

          20              MR. DANDAR:  If it is registered as I see it on

          21         the first page, of Dandar & Dandar, PA, privileged

          22         phone records.  We did not approve of this at all.

          23              THE COURT:  Okay.

          24              MR. FUGATE:  Well, Judge, then I'll come back

          25         to them, because they're the Nextel records of LMT

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           1         and Mr. Minton.  But they were registered there for

           2         four months and then were changed.  But I'll come

           3         back to it.

           4              THE COURT:  All right.

           5              MR. FUGATE:  Can I retrieve it?

           6              THE WITNESS:  Okay.

           7              THE COURT:  Well, let me see the subpoena.

           8              MR. FUGATE:  Sure.

           9              THE COURT:  What does the subpoena say?  Does

          10         it refer to a phone number?  Or does it refer to --

          11              THE WITNESS:  I believe it was my phone

          12         records, your Honor.

          13              THE COURT:  Okay, the subpoena, that does

          14         appear to be directed to the custodian of the

          15         records at Nextel Communications.  The list of

          16         documents to be produced appears to be any and all

          17         documents concerning telephone and billing records

          18         for Robert S. Minton from November of '99 to

          19         December of 2001.

          20              MR. FUGATE:  Listed to those Nextel phones.

          21              THE COURT:  I don't see any phones, listed to

          22         any Nextel phones.

          23              MR. FUGATE:  Well, that is what is in the pages

          24         that are after that.  It identifies the number of

          25         phones.

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           1              THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, I didn't give that to

           2         your Honor.  Here is the rest of it.  I'm sorry.

           3              THE COURT:  Well, who is this?  Whose is this?

           4         It says Dandar & Dandar, PA.

           5              MR. FUGATE:  Let me ask, if I can.

           6              THE COURT:  No, I want to know whether this,

           7         the subpoena here, is for records, and I can see

           8         that -- maybe I should look --

           9              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, what happened, the subpoena

          10         is directed to all phone records.  And the phone

          11         that -- or the phones, plural, that these go to

          12         started out listed to Dandar & Dandar, although they

          13         were utilized by LMT, then ultimately switched to

          14         Mr. Minton's --

          15              THE COURT:  I need to ask a question.  When a

          16         subpoena duces tecum is issued in a case and there

          17         is opposing counsel, do you not send them notice?

          18              MR. MOXON:  Let me explain.  This was my

          19         subpoena.

          20              We said we were trying to subpoena the LMT

          21         records.  And they had a regular phone and a Nextel

          22         phone.  All of the LMT people all have their little

          23         Nextel phones.

          24              Nextel said, "Well, we actually don't have any

          25         records for LMT," and they told us that their phones

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           1         were listed under Mr. Minton's name.

           2              So we sent them a new subpoena under

           3         Mr. Minton's name.  And you may recall when the

           4         records came in, the records -- it was set for a

           5         deposition, but the records were sent to me before

           6         the deposition occurred.

           7              At that point we entered into a stipulation of

           8         Mr. Howie and Mr. McGowan and I that these records

           9         would all go over to the -- to the discovery master.

          10         They all went over to the discovery master and they

          11         were looked at and realized these are all of the LMT

          12         records.

          13              THE COURT:  Who is the discovery master?

          14              MR. MOXON:  That was Mr. Keane.  Pursuant to

          15         the stipulation, the agreement of the other side,

          16         Mr. McGowan representing LMT, said these are all LMT

          17         records.

          18              THE COURT:  Mr. McGowan represented LMT?

          19              MR. MOXON:  Yes.

          20              THE COURT:  Well --

          21              MR. MOXON:  These are all LMT phone records

          22         under Mr. Minton's name.  Mr. Dandar registered the

          23         LMT phone, but these are all LMT phone records.

          24              THE COURT:  Okay.  I guess it doesn't answer my

          25         question.  My question is, is when you have a

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           1         subpoena duces tecum that goes out in a case, do you

           2         not give notice to the other side --

           3              MR. MOXON:  Of course.

           4              THE COURT:  -- so they can object?

           5              MR. MOXON:  Of course.

           6              THE COURT:  Where is the notice that is given

           7         to Mr. Dandar on that?

           8              MR. MOXON:  He got notice.  Everyone got notice

           9         of it.  You may not have the notice with that

          10         subpoena that is in your hand, but I can certainly

          11         provide it to you.  Of course everyone got notice.

          12         That is why a motion for protective order was filed

          13         after the motion went out.

          14              THE COURT:  Okay.

          15              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, I anticipated the questions

          16         you were asking.  I was going to go back and get the

          17         documentation for you and go through it again.

          18              THE COURT:  Well, when somebody doesn't have an

          19         objection, because something appears to be

          20         requesting records of somebody, and the next thing

          21         you know, law firm records are being produced, and

          22         the other side, if they don't know that, there has

          23         to be some problem with that.

          24              So, Mr. Dandar, was he aware that Nextel was

          25         getting ready to dole out his PA, Dandar & Dandar,

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           1         PA, phone records to the Church of Scientology?

           2              MR. MOXON:  They are not his phone records.

           3         They are LMT phone records.

           4              THE COURT:  Well, if it says "Dandar & Dandar,

           5         PA."  Did anybody ever advise him, for example, of

           6         that?

           7              MR. MOXON:  Well, I actually don't know because

           8         we didn't see the phone records until Mr. McGowan

           9         authorized them, after reviewing them, to be

          10         released to us as LMT's records.  So it was only

          11         after LMT's counsel conceded these are LMT's

          12         records --

          13              THE COURT:  Well, is this after the LMT and the

          14         Church of Scientology were in friendly negotiations

          15         where they were trying to cooperate with the Church

          16         to bring about a global settlement?

          17              THE WITNESS:  We were not cooperating at that

          18         time, your Honor.

          19              MR. MOXON:  The motion was filed long ago.

          20              MR. FUGATE:  I don't have the subpoena to look

          21         at the date, Judge.  That might help.  But --

          22              THE COURT:  Okay.

          23              MR. FUGATE:  If it even --

          24              THE COURT:  Dated February 11 of 2002.

          25              MR. MOXON:  Yes.

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           1              THE COURT:  Wasn't there some negotiations

           2         going on then?

           3              MR. MOXON:  No.

           4              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.

           5              MR. FUGATE:  No.

           6              THE COURT:  No?  Well, I'm not letting you have

           7         any records of Dandar & Dandar, PA unless you can

           8         show me somehow or another that Mr. Dandar agreed

           9         with that.  You can't get into a law firm's records.

          10         I don't care what anybody says.

          11              MR. MOXON:  Again, your Honor, these are not

          12         Dandar & Dandar, PA phone records.  They are LMT

          13         phone records.

          14              MR. FUGATE:  Judge --

          15              THE COURT:  He objected.  I sustained the

          16         objection.  It is just that simple.  Move on.

          17              MR. FUGATE:  Fine, Judge.  That is what we

          18         suggest.

          19    BY MR. FUGATE:

          20         Q    Mr. Minton, if I could direct your attention to

          21    August of 1999, did you have any meetings with Mr. Dandar in

          22    August of 1999?

          23         A    Yes.  I did.

          24         Q    And can you tell us, to the best of your

          25    recollection, where and when?

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           1         A    I believe it was in Philadelphia on May 26, maybe

           2    the night of the 25th and 26th.

           3         Q    May, or August, sir?

           4         A    Mmm, I -- I can tell by the date of the check, if

           5    I can just get my little thing out, again.

           6         Q    I had left the exhibits up there, exhibit checks,

           7    unless we knocked them off.

           8         A    Oh, yes, that is the way.  Yes.  Sorry.

           9         Q    Except now I have forgotten the number.  I think

          10    it is 93E.

          11         A    Oh, yeah.  It is on the top.  Yes, I'm sorry.

          12    That was August.

          13         Q    And obviously you were referencing the check.

          14    Which check are we looking at there, for the record?

          15         A    It is check 93E, payable to Dandar & Dandar, for

          16    $250,000.

          17         Q    What is the date it was issued?

          18         A    August 27th.  That is the date -- you know, the

          19    date that was written on the check.

          20         Q    Was that the date that you gave it to Mr. Dandar?

          21         A    I -- I believe I gave it to him on the 26th at

          22    night.

          23              THE COURT:  I'm sorry, what was the year,

          24         8/27 --

          25         A    '99.  I didn't have money in my checking account.

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           1    And I told him I was going to transfer money in that

           2    checking account, so I was going to postdate it by a day.

           3    BY MR. FUGATE:

           4         Q    And can you tell us about the meeting that you

           5    had --

           6              THE COURT:  Would you-all give me just a

           7         second.  I want to listen carefully, yet I'm trying

           8         to deal with something as acting chief, and I'm not

           9         having good success in keeping my head in two

          10         places.

          11              MR. FUGATE:  Well, join with me --

          12              THE COURT:  I'm sorry, this has come up and I

          13         really need to take care of it.  And as I said, I am

          14         acting chief.  And I really need to deal with it.

          15         And I thought I could maybe listen and deal with it,

          16         but I can't because I find myself looking here and

          17         I'm not hearing that.  And so sometimes I can do two

          18         things at one time but --

          19              MR. FUGATE:  Tell me what you want me to do.

          20              THE COURT:  I want you to stop and let me take

          21         enough time to deal with it.  I'm sorry, I hate to

          22         give you all another break, but I just need to tend

          23         to this.  We'll be in recess until -- well, until

          24         I'm done.

          25                 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

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           1              THE COURT:  You may be seated.  I think I have

           2         my mind all in one place.

           3             (A discussion was held off the record.)

           4              MR. WEINBERG:  Going back to the phone records

           5         for a second?

           6              THE COURT:  Yes.

           7              MR. WEINBERG:  We'll cover it in more detail on

           8         Tuesday.  I just wanted to explain one thing that is

           9         confusing when you look at it.

          10              We -- we requested the production from Nextel

          11         of the records of LMT, first.  And Nextel said they

          12         didn't have records of LMT, they had records of

          13         Robert Minton.  So we requested the production, we

          14         subpoenaed Nextel for the records of Robert Minton.

          15         And what came back was what is in those folders

          16         there.

          17              And as a result of that, there were these --

          18         there were these motions that were filed both by

          19         Stacy Brooks and by Mr. Minton to try to prevent it.

          20         There were hearings.  Mr. Dandar was part of that

          21         process.

          22              The records themselves, if you go through them

          23         you will see that these are -- even though the first

          24         three months of whatever it is, a year and a half or

          25         two-year period, the first few bills went to Dandar

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           1         & Dandar, the records are not Ken Dandar and Dandar

           2         & Dandar records.  They are phone records of the

           3         people at LMT, including Mr. Minton, Mr. Prince,

           4         Ms. Brooks.

           5              They had a series -- they had a network of --

           6         of Nextel phones.  This is this network.  That --

           7         they are not Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Dandar didn't have

           8         one of those as part of these records, or his law

           9         firm.

          10              After the first three months, the bills in

          11         there are then directed to Mr. Minton in care of the

          12         LMT, if I'm correct.

          13              And the point was, A, there are many important

          14         calls in there from people at the LMT, including

          15         Mr. Minton, to Mr. Dandar and others.

          16              And, secondly, the fact that -- in other words,

          17         indicating -- indicating contact, a lot of contact,

          18         which obviously is an issue as to what participation

          19         or -- or control or involvement Mr. Minton had with

          20         regard to Mr. Dandar in the prosecution of the

          21         wrongful death case.  Oh, five hundred calls, you

          22         are going to see.

          23              And, secondly, the fact that the first few

          24         months were sent to Dandar & Dandar is further

          25         indication, I believe, that there was -- that there

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           1         was a real -- you know, a relationship between the

           2         LMT and the people at the LMT and, you know,

           3         Mr. Dandar, which is part of what this hearing is

           4         about.  That is what it is.

           5              We can sort that through on Tuesday, which is

           6         fine.  But when one looks at these records, these

           7         are not Ken Dandar phone records, these are not

           8         Dandar & Dandar phone records; these are phone

           9         records of Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks, Jesse Prince and

          10         other people at the -- at LMT.  That is what they

          11         are.

          12              THE COURT:  Okay.

          13              Mr. Dandar?

          14              MR. DANDAR:  Judge, when you make up a notice

          15         of deposition to Mr. Moxon for records and you put

          16         on Robert Minton's name, then you cancel the

          17         deposition and take the records because they were --

          18         the phone company sent them to you ahead of time so

          19         they don't have to come to the deposition, that

          20         violates the rule.

          21              I go by the rules.  And my name is on the first

          22         three months of those depositions, I was never

          23         noticed for that.  It is improper.  It is the first

          24         time I saw it, by the way.

          25              But what Mr. Minton will explain to you, and I

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           1         would assume accurately, LMT did not have credit.

           2         So I did them a favor, I added them onto my account,

           3         and then I separated that account.

           4              But this whole procedure of how they went about

           5         obtaining those records without notice to me was

           6         improper.  And that is why I objected to it.

           7              Now, maybe just a technical violation of the

           8         rules, which it is a violation of the rules, but I

           9         objected to it because they weren't following the

          10         rules then, and now they're trying to make it an

          11         exhibit.  And I just brought it to your attention,

          12         but it's probably a whole bunch of argument about

          13         nothing.  I brought it to your attention because it

          14         is a technical and it's a real --

          15              THE COURT:  Well, one of the things that

          16         concerns me, and one thing I'm obviously trying to

          17         protect here, as I would any lawyer, is anybody else

          18         getting a hold of a lawyer's phone records that

          19         would reveal, presumably, all manner of calls to

          20         clients and what have you that they had no business,

          21         anybody, knowing who they are or anything of the

          22         sort.

          23              Do you agree that these records, if you'll take

          24         the time between now and Tuesday to go through them,

          25         whatever these are that have your name on them, that

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           1         they're not records of you calling your clients or

           2         your clients calling you, that gives me some, Mmm --

           3         you know, I'll deal with the technical inadequacy or

           4         not differently.  But I will not deal with

           5         privileged phone records being used in this hearing

           6         or any other hearing.

           7              And I will ask that they be returned, if, in

           8         fact, the Church of Scientology has phone records of

           9         your law office between you and your clients.

          10              MR. DANDAR:  I would have to look at the

          11         records.

          12              THE COURT:  So I think I really can't resolve

          13         this until he has a chance to look at these records

          14         and tells me.  That makes a difference to me.

          15              MR. MOXON:  Could I add a couple things for the

          16         record, your Honor?

          17              Firstly, there was a certificate of service to

          18         Mr. Dandar where he was noticed for the deposition

          19         on the phone records.  I found a copy of it now.

          20              Then, after the records came in, I let everyone

          21         know that the records had been sent to me prior to

          22         the deposition and I didn't open them, I didn't open

          23         a single one.  And I informed Mr. McGowan and

          24         Mr. Howie and Mr. Dandar about this.  And we

          25         stipulated to an order that -- that the Court signed

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           1         appointing a special master to handle these

           2         telephone records.

           3              Here is a copy of the order that your Honor

           4         signed.

           5              And -- I'm sorry, here is a copy of the cover

           6         letter indicating, also, service to Mr. Dandar,

           7         Mr. Howie, Mr. McGowan and I.

           8              So this is how it was handled.  Mr. Dandar's

           9         assertion he didn't have notice of this or that

          10         there is anything improper about the procedure is

          11         just not very accurate.

          12              THE COURT:  Well, you know, naturally you-all

          13         don't agree on much and you never have and you

          14         probably never will.

          15              I'm looking at -- if I were a lawyer, whether I

          16         was noticed or whether I wasn't, and a deposition

          17         went out that said you are to produce to me --

          18              MR. FUGATE:  I took that back and put it in the

          19         packet, Judge, if that is what you are looking for.

          20              THE COURT:  Well, I think it is here.

          21              MR. FUGATE:  Okay.

          22              THE COURT:  The custodians of records to bring

          23         documents concerning telephone and billing records

          24         for Robert S .Minton from November of '99 to

          25         December 2001, you know, I would assume they would

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           1         be bringing records with Mr. Minton's name on them

           2         or --

           3              MR. MOXON:  Sure.

           4              THE COURT:  -- or if I had known before it was

           5         LMT, and now they were sending Robert Minton, they

           6         would have "Robert Minton" on them.  I don't know I

           7         would care.

           8              I would care if it -- including if they are

           9         Dandar & Dandar, PA records, I would have said,

          10         "Whoa, just a minute."

          11              MR. MOXON:  Sure.  Absolutely.

          12              THE COURT:  So I'm not sure either of you are

          13         saying anything really different.  But it does

          14         appear you got notice of all this.

          15              MR. DANDAR:  Oh, I got notice for a deposition.

          16         This was not the 10-day rule procedure where you can

          17         mail in the records and there is no deposition.

          18         This is a deposition which is on our calendar, we

          19         are ready to come to it, "Oh, we canceled it because

          20         we got the records."

          21              That is not the way it is done.  And my name

          22         doesn't appear on the subpoena, so I could care less

          23         about the records until I see them for the first

          24         time in court today that has "Dandar & Dandar" on

          25         the first three months.

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           1              THE COURT:  Okay.  Now I think I understand.

           2         Normally, these things do go out, as I recall, some

           3         sort of notice.  If I don't receive an objection

           4         within ten days, then this thing goes out.  This

           5         looks like what you are saying, this is a notice of

           6         taking deposition.

           7              MR. DANDAR:  Normal deposition.

           8              THE COURT:  But you would have assumed, if they

           9         got the records, that they may not have --

          10         especially if they got this many records -- they

          11         weren't going to sit down and go through with some

          12         custodian much about this bulk of records.  The

          13         custodian really couldn't tell them anything.  And

          14         that is who it is to.

          15              So it is pretty clear, I assume, what they were

          16         trying to get were these records.

          17              MR. DANDAR:  But the reason you do it this way,

          18         that they set it up, you want someone with a court

          19         reporter saying here they are, marked as Exhibit A,

          20         these are the official records of Nextel, Robert

          21         Minton.  You have a record now.

          22              Now when they get something like this, no one

          23         can authenticate how they got those records because

          24         there is no court reporter.

          25              So there are two different procedures.  They

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           1         followed the one for a real deposition, custodian,

           2         and then they canceled it and just took the records,

           3         apparently.

           4              And that is why I'm objecting to the way this

           5         was handled.

           6              THE COURT:  This said:  "Dear Judge Schaeffer,"

           7         this accounts for -- from McGowan & Suarez, this is

           8         really from Tom McGowan, with a copy showing going

           9         to you, stating I am pleased, which you should be

          10         since it was an agreed-upon order, which are few and

          11         far between in this case.  "I present your Honor

          12         with an agreed order dealing with the manner in

          13         which discovery of the telephone records is to be

          14         handled.  All counsel are in concurrence with it."

          15              Then it has got your name.  And this order is,

          16         in essence, to give it to the special master.

          17              Let me see what this says.  Michael Keane was

          18         appointed special master.  And this order that you

          19         approved said -- you need to read these orders --

          20         represented the telephone records provided to him by

          21         Verizon and Nextel, "which records were to have been

          22         opened at deposition noticed for March 1, 2001 but

          23         canceled by agreement of the parties," which would

          24         be you -- "are in his possession and remain under

          25         the seal they were when they were sent to him by

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           1         Verizon and Nextel."

           2              So this order, which says here you agreed to

           3         it, says that the parties agreed to cancel the

           4         deposition.  That would be you.

           5              MR. DANDAR:  I'm not so sure about that but --

           6         but look at -- look what you have in front of you,

           7         Judge.  Where is the sealed telephone records?  How

           8         were they unsealed?  Why --

           9              THE COURT:  I assume they went to Mr. Keane.

          10              MR. MOXON:  Exactly right, your Honor.

          11              THE COURT:  And that Keane -- it says

          12         thereafter Keane shall unseal the records and

          13         categorize the records.

          14              This -- again, I signed this.  When I hear

          15         "agreed" -- I don't even read it, to tell you the

          16         truth.  When somebody said we have agreed on the

          17         order, I say, goodie and I sign it, so I don't know

          18         what this order contained.  And I'm sure I glanced

          19         at it, but I don't read it with the same depth I do

          20         when you-all don't agree.

          21              "Thereafter, Keane shall unseal the records and

          22         shall categorize the records with sufficient

          23         specificity that the parties understand what they

          24         are, but in a general enough way that the content of

          25         the records are not made public.  Within five days

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           1         thereof, counsel for LMT and Minton shall set forth

           2         in writing the identity of all records they agree

           3         are discoverable and not subject to privilege.

           4         These records shall be turned over to Mr. Moxon,

           5         with copies going to all other interested parties in

           6         the lawsuit."

           7              So did you get them?

           8              MR. DANDAR:  No.

           9              THE COURT:  You never got them?

          10              MR. DANDAR:  No.  And my name doesn't appear on

          11         there as the stipulated parties, either.

          12              I don't want to waste a lot of time on this,

          13         Judge.  I just wanted to voice my objection to the

          14         whole procedure.

          15              MR. FUGATE:  Well, Judge, your solution, I

          16         think, is -- I think you can see by the orders there

          17         is no chicanery.  If he wants to look at the records

          18         and make sure -- I agree with your Honor.  I don't

          19         think we would ever ask for law firm telephone

          20         records unless there was some notification and some

          21         process that occurred.  But if he wants to look at

          22         the records, we'll come back to it on Tuesday, which

          23         I agreed to before we took the break.

          24              THE COURT:  Okay.  It does show you got a copy

          25         of this -- of this letter.  And --

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           1              MR. DANDAR:  I did.  It was Mr. McGowan who was

           2         negotiating with Mr. Moxon and Mr. Keane, and he

           3         told me that is what they were going to do, I think

           4         one or two days before the scheduled deposition.

           5              I had no interest in it because it said Robert

           6         Minton on the subpoena.

           7              THE COURT:  So you didn't get a copy of this

           8         order?  Is what you are saying?

           9              MR. DANDAR:  I may have.

          10              MR. MOXON:  He got a copy of the order.  In

          11         fact, I have the transcript where Mr. Dandar was

          12         there present.

          13              THE COURT:  I don't see certificate of service

          14         on this order.

          15              MR. MOXON:  No.

          16              THE COURT:  That is unusual.  Why isn't there

          17         one?

          18              MR. MOXON:  I have no idea.  Mr. McGowan

          19         handled it.

          20              THE COURT:  Well, okay.  You will be able to

          21         take until Tuesday to look through these records.

          22         And if, in fact, there is anything in there that you

          23         believe to be privileged in any fashion that relate

          24         to the business of your law office and clients, what

          25         have you, if you'll bring that to my attention, we

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           1         will deal with that at that time.

           2              MR. DANDAR:  All right.  Thank you.

           3              THE COURT:  Okay.  So maybe you can just move

           4         to some other subject to finish off today.

           5              MR. FUGATE:  I had and I will, Judge.

           6              THE COURT:  Good.  Now, what can I do with

           7         this?  Because I don't really want it.

           8              MR. FUGATE:  What do you have there?

           9              THE COURT:  Notice of taking deposition.  And

          10         an order.

          11              Now, if Mr. Dandar is not sure he has that

          12         order, why don't you give him that order.  And that

          13         is the letter.  Give him both of those.

          14              MR. FUGATE:  All right, I'll take this off.

          15              THE COURT:  Okay.

          16              MR. FUGATE:  May I have a moment, your Honor?

          17              THE COURT:  You may.

          18    BY MR. FUGATE:

          19         Q    Mr. Minton --

          20              THE COURT:  McGowan, of course, isn't here, but

          21         I don't blame him.  He has been here a long time.

          22         I'm sure he had other work to take care of.

          23              Proceed.

          24    BY MR. FUGATE:

          25         Q    Mr. Minton, I think when we broke there, I had

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           1    asked you to look at an August 27, 1999 check and asked you

           2    about a meeting, if I remember correctly.  Is that right?

           3         A    That is correct.

           4              MR. FUGATE:  May I approach the witness, your

           5         Honor?  I'll take this out --

           6              THE COURT:  You may --

           7              MR. FUGATE:  -- of here, too, just so --

           8              THE COURT:  Okay.

           9    BY MR. FUGATE:

          10         Q    Can you -- I think I asked you, just as we were

          11    about to break, sir, what -- who was at the meeting and

          12    where was the meeting.  If I didn't, I'll ask you now.

          13         A    The meeting was in Philadelphia.  Mr. Dandar, I

          14    believe, was there for deposition of some sorts.  Ms. Brooks

          15    and I were traveling at the time.  And we said okay, it's

          16    sort of on the way back to New Hampshire, we'll stop by

          17    Philadelphia on our way.

          18              And, you know, Mr. Dandar needed money.  That was

          19    the purpose of going there.  He gave us a little briefing

          20    about what was going on in the case.

          21              And it had been a subject of fairly intense

          22    discussion amongst myself and Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince

          23    that --

          24         Q    Could I ask you to stop a minute.

          25              What had been the subject of discussion between

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           1    you, Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince?

           2         A    About focusing more on the Scientology-related

           3    issues in this case, the wrongful death case.

           4         Q    And did those -- those discussions had preceded

           5    this meeting?

           6         A    Yes.

           7         Q    This August 26, I think you said, '99 meeting?

           8         A    It might have also been on the 25th at night.

           9    There was a morning meeting and an evening meeting.  And I

          10    forget which -- whether it is the 25th, 26th, 27th; or 26th,

          11    27th.

          12         Q    As I understand, you date the times by the check.

          13    It was dated ahead, correct?

          14         A    Yes, that is correct.  There was a meeting on the

          15    26th for sure.  I don't remember whether we had breakfast

          16    that morning, as well.  But then we had a meeting in -- I

          17    think in Mr. Dandar's hotel room before dinner and a meeting

          18    in -- in my hotel room after dinner.  And we had gone out to

          19    dinner with a couple other people.

          20         Q    Let's break this down so we can -- what -- which

          21    meeting was the check ultimately delivered?

          22         A    The one on the night of the 26th after dinner.

          23         Q    And who was present when the check was delivered?

          24         A    Stacy Brooks was there.  I was there.  And Ken

          25    Dandar was there.

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           1         Q    And who delivered the check to Mr. Dandar?

           2         A    Well, I wrote it right in front of him and tore it

           3    out of my checkbook and handed it to him.

           4         Q    Prior to that, you said there had been a request

           5    for money.  Can you tell us what that involved?  Who made

           6    the request?  What was the subject?

           7         A    Well, Mr. Dandar made a request for additional

           8    funds.  And, you know, this was done by phone.  This wasn't

           9    a face-to-face meeting.  It was done by phone a few days

          10    before this Philadelphia meeting.

          11              As I said, Ms. Brooks and I were traveling.  At

          12    the time, we might have been out in Colorado.  I'm not sure

          13    really where we were at that stage.

          14              And we said:  "Okay, fine, we'll meet you in

          15    Philadelphia."

          16         Q    All right.  Was there any discussion about whether

          17    or not you were going to continue to fund the litigation at

          18    this meeting?

          19         A    Well, there -- not directly.  You know --

          20         Q    Tell us what happened.

          21         A    It was a situation where neither Stacy Brooks,

          22    myself or Jesse Prince felt that there was being put enough

          23    emphasis on the Scientology-related issues in the case.

          24              You know, Mr. Dandar had -- by this time, he had

          25    plenty of, you know, ammunition in this respect.  He had

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           1    gone through the process of -- with Jesse of this

           2    August 20th affidavit which ultimately got used, to add

           3    to -- you know, the attempt to add additional parties to the

           4    case.

           5              But, you know, things were moving kind of slow.

           6    And, you know, this was a real push by me, supported by the

           7    feelings of Stacy and Jesse.

           8         Q    For the record, was Mr. Prince present at the

           9    meetings that we've been discussing?

          10         A    He wasn't.  No.

          11         Q    I wasn't clear on that.

          12         A    Okay.  And so, you know, I told Mr. Dandar, you

          13    know, "Look, we really need to start pushing this case more

          14    on the Scientology front.  You know, this is not just a

          15    simple wrongful death case.  And, you know, this is a case

          16    about a Scientologist who died on the introspection

          17    rundown."

          18              So, you know, Mr. Dandar said, "Look, it is going

          19    to cost more money to do this."

          20              And I said, "I realize that."

          21              So this is the first -- I think this is the first

          22    check I gave him that was more than 100,000.  This was for

          23    250,000.

          24         Q    And have you got the check there in front of you?

          25         A    Yes.

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           1         Q    Or a copy of the check, to be more exact?

           2         A    Yes.

           3         Q    Would you read the "for" line where it says "for."

           4         A    "McPherson."

           5         Q    Was that notation made by you?

           6         A    Yes, it was.

           7         Q    What did that notation mean to you as you noted it

           8    on the check for $250,000?

           9         A    Well, this was for the McPherson case.

          10         Q    Did Mr. Dandar voice any opposition to your

          11    suggestion?

          12         A    Only that it's going to cost more money.

          13         Q    And you gave him the check?

          14         A    Yeah.

          15         Q    And by this time, which was August of 1999 -- I

          16    think I had hopped ahead there earlier this afternoon -- but

          17    by this time, August of 1999, was Mr. Prince working at

          18    Mr. Dandar's office, to your knowledge?

          19         A    Yes, he was there, yeah, and working.

          20         Q    And do you know at this point in time -- do you

          21    know if he was being paid by Mr. Dandar to work out of his

          22    office?

          23         A    I -- I'm not exactly clear on the timing of

          24    Mr. Prince being paid by Mr. Dandar.  You know, it was all

          25    just sort of the same thing, to me, the same ball of wax.

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           1         Q    Did you have any understanding of what money was

           2    being used to pay Mr. Prince by Mr. Dandar?

           3         A    Yeah.  It was the moneys that I was providing to

           4    the estate.

           5         Q    And by this time, was Ms. Brooks working actually

           6    out of Mr. Dandar's office, do you recall, August of 1999

           7    and thereafter?

           8         A    You know, I don't think she was full-time down in

           9    Tampa.

          10         Q    I'm asking you.

          11         A    Well, I'm sure she wasn't full-time down in Tampa.

          12    But she was coming down for, you know, a week or two at a

          13    time, you know, frequently.

          14         Q    Now, did there come a time when you went to a

          15    meeting at Mr. Dandar's office, after you had delivered this

          16    check for $250,000 in 1999, after August 26 of 1999?

          17         A    Yes, I did.

          18         Q    Do you recall, can you date that?

          19         A    Mmm, I think it was -- well, it was late fall.

          20         Q    Do you recall which office of Mr. Dandar's you

          21    went to?

          22         A    It was the -- the new one that was across from

          23    that pink hotel, I think, on West Kennedy.

          24         Q    For the sake of the Court who doesn't know the

          25    transition, can you tell us, did you know that Mr. Dandar

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           1    had another office prior to that one?

           2         A    Yes.  Prior -- prior to that, he was on Cypress

           3    Street.  And then -- and then this other office wasn't very

           4    far away, it was -- I'm not sure whether it was a temporary

           5    facility for him.  I think he was going to ultimately move

           6    out of it.  But it was a fairly large office.  And, you

           7    know, that is where the meeting took place.

           8         Q    The temporary office being the one next to the

           9    hotel?

          10         A    Across the street from a hotel.  I think the hotel

          11    was pink.  There is also -- there were a lot of policemen

          12    there because it's some sort of state police thing going on

          13    in that office building, too, that he was in.

          14              THE COURT:  What was the date of this meeting

          15         again?

          16              THE WITNESS:  It was sometime in the fall, late

          17         fall, of '99.

          18    BY MR. FUGATE:

          19         Q    And can you tell us what happened at this meeting,

          20    what you observed or heard?

          21         A    Yes.  Well, there were five people there.  Stacy

          22    Brooks.  Jesse Prince.  Myself.  Michael Garko -- Dr. Garko.

          23    And Mr. Dandar.

          24              And Mr. Dandar basically was going through his

          25    reasoning as to why he wanted to add additional parties to

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           1    this case.

           2              Now, there had -- there had been other attempts

           3    before to add parties, which failed, for a variety of

           4    reasons, which -- some of which at the time I wasn't aware

           5    of.

           6              But I knew that there had been attempts to add

           7    additional parties.  And Miscavige was the person -- David

           8    Miscavige was the person who was trying to be added in his

           9    capacity as the head of the Sea Org.

          10         Q    Do you have any --

          11         A    And so --

          12         Q    Let me just interrupt you.  Do you have any

          13    knowledge -- do you have any knowledge as to why that was

          14    happening?

          15         A    Well, you know, it was -- it was clearly a focus

          16    on the Scientology aspects of the case.  That's for sure.

          17    There was nothing that could be more dramatic about this

          18    case than having David Miscavige, who is the head of the

          19    Church of Scientology, added as a defendant in it.

          20              And this was something that Mr. Dandar was

          21    extremely thrilled about the possibility of.  I mean, he'd

          22    been trying to do this for years, at least a couple years.

          23              And when I encouraged him, you know, we needed to

          24    focus on the Scientology aspects of the case, you know, this

          25    was a natural thing to keep doing, I mean, despite the

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           1    failures previously to do it.

           2              And I believe that Judge Moody had sort of opened

           3    the door for, you know, another way to add parties to the

           4    case.  And, you know, this was sort of the final attempt to

           5    go through that door and add the parties.

           6         Q    Can I ask you a question, sir.  In August of 1999,

           7    which you just discussed, were you aware then, sir, that

           8    there was an agreement that had been entered into between

           9    the estate and the Church not to add parties?  Were you

          10    aware of that agreement then?

          11         A    At that time, and this is a surprise to everybody,

          12    that I didn't know about this agreement.  You know, I have

          13    obviously since learned about the agreement.  But at that

          14    time I didn't know it.

          15              The other people who were in this meeting were

          16    very familiar with it because they had all attended hearings

          17    that related to it, you know, these other attempts to add

          18    parties.  And that agreement -- you know, and I'm learning

          19    this subsequent to this, that agreement was the stumbling

          20    block.

          21         Q    When you say subsequent, so there is no confusion

          22    in the record, are you --

          23         A    Prior.  Prior to that.

          24         Q    I know.  Let me just ask my question.

          25         A    I see.

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           1         Q    We skip back and forth.  We went to August.

           2              Now we're back in the fall of '99.  Are you saying

           3    that is when you learned that there had been an agreement?

           4         A    No.  It wasn't until -- well, at some stage

           5    Mr. Dandar had sent to me a very large document, sometime in

           6    '99, probably the second half of '99.  I'm just not sure.

           7    But it was, you know, about yeah thick (indicating).

           8         Q    You are indicating, for the record --

           9         A    About six to seven inches, something like that.

          10    And it was Scientology's motion -- or opposition motion to

          11    one of the attempts to add parties.

          12              And, you know, it wasn't my habit to pour over

          13    these copies of these court filings, that were that big,

          14    anyway.  And, you know, I stuck it under a bed in my house.

          15              And then the first time I really ever looked at

          16    that was sometime in the winter of 2000, you know, like

          17    January to March sometime.  And I broke it apart.  There

          18    were like 22 or 25 tabs to it.  I broke it apart.

          19              And the first tab, I believe, was the -- was this

          20    November 1997 agreement.  And that was really the first time

          21    that I actually knew about that agreement.

          22         Q    And do you recall, in substance, what that

          23    agreement was about?

          24         A    Well, it was --

          25              THE COURT:  What does that have to do with this

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           1         hearing?

           2              MR. FUGATE:  It's just an agreement not to add

           3         parties.  It was the subject of the breach.  Really,

           4         other than the fact --

           5    BY MR. FUGATE:

           6         Q    You didn't know about the agreement, you paid the

           7    money, and that is when you found out about the problems

           8    when you were there in the fall?  Is that essentially what

           9    happened?

          10         A    Found out about the problems?

          11              THE COURT:  He's saying he did not know about

          12         this agreement at the fall meeting.

          13              THE WITNESS:  Right.  I didn't know about it at

          14         the fall meeting.

          15              THE COURT:  He said that twice or three times.

          16              MR. FUGATE:  I'm sorry, Judge.

          17              THE WITNESS:  This agreement -- what this

          18         agreement basically was, was that Mr. Dandar

          19         wouldn't attempt to add any additional parties,

          20         corporate parties or their officers, in return for

          21         the Church agreeing --

          22              THE COURT:  For something I don't know is --

          23         now I have to listen to Mr. Minton tell us what this

          24         agreement was that he wasn't even a party to.

          25              MR. FUGATE:  I'll get to the point I want to

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           1         ask a question about, Judge.

           2              THE COURT:  Well, if it is whether or not he

           3         knew about it in the fall, he's now said several

           4         times that he didn't, and he didn't know about it

           5         until 2000 when he got this thing out from under his

           6         bed.

           7    BY MR. FUGATE:

           8         Q    The meeting -- let me focus your attention back to

           9    the meeting in the fall.

          10         A    Yeah?

          11         Q    You described that as a meeting to talk about a

          12    way to get around, I think you said, Judge Moody's order.

          13              What essentially was talked about?

          14         A    No, I didn't say get around Judge Moody's order.

          15    I said go through an opening that Judge Moody apparently

          16    gave.

          17         Q    All right.

          18         A    And this was this whole concept of, you know,

          19    adding Mr. Miscavige as head of the Sea Org.

          20              So, you know, the problem of the Moody aspect or

          21    the agreement wasn't discussed at this meeting.  This was

          22    already, you know, on track, so to speak.

          23              So Mr. Dandar gave his views about this.

          24    Dr. Garko gave his views.  Mr. Dandar's views were extremely

          25    favorable.  He wanted to add the parties -- Mr. Miscavige at

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           1    that stage.  He thought this would be extremely sensational,

           2    lots of publicity for the case, and would clearly put

           3    Scientology in a position -- and this goes back to this

           4    whole theory of adding Miscavige -- to make people pay up

           5    or -- pay up more money.

           6              So Dr. Garko -- my recollection at the time was

           7    that Dr. Garko was supportive of Mr. Dandar's position.  But

           8    I have subsequently learned that that wasn't the case.

           9    Mr. Garko and Stacy Brooks reminded me of something that he

          10    had said at that meeting which I now remember.  So he wasn't

          11    really in favor of it because there wasn't any evidence to

          12    support it.

          13              Jesse Prince was in favor of it.

          14              Stacy Brooks was the most enthusiastic about it

          15    because, you know, this has been a drum she has been beating

          16    for a long time.

          17              I wasn't -- I wasn't in favor of it for one

          18    reason.

          19         Q    What reason was that?

          20         A    Mmm, because of how much more money this was going

          21    to cost.  I mean, this was a huge leap.  But -- well, and

          22    during the course of that meeting, I have got to tell you, I

          23    was down at the far end of the conference table.  This was a

          24    very long conference table in the room.  And it was a very

          25    hot day.  And I was at the end closest to Kennedy

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           1    Boulevard -- or West Kennedy, whatever the street is there,

           2    the other end being the parking lot end.  And that was where

           3    there was an air-conditioning vent, as I recall.  And the

           4    room was very hot.

           5              And, you know, I really only asked one question

           6    during that whole course of this thing.  And I asked

           7    about -- "What about Ray Mithoff?"

           8              And, you know, the consensus was, "Well, look, you

           9    know, that is not a pressure point."

          10              Well, that -- that was really the first time that

          11    I recognized something about this whole case.  And that was

          12    that people weren't really interested -- or at least

          13    Mr. Dandar and Jesse Prince, who were the ones principally

          14    talking, because Prince knew Mithoff's situation, no one was

          15    interested in getting to the truth of what happened here,

          16    because if anybody in California would have been interested

          17    in who might know about what happened with Lisa McPherson,

          18    it would be the senior case supervisor.

          19              So at the end of this meeting, despite having said

          20    to Mr. Dandar that, "I don't think that this is a good idea

          21    because of the money that will be involved in this," I went

          22    up to him at the end of the meeting and I said to him,

          23    "Look, whatever we decide to do on this thing, I will

          24    support you 100 percent.  You know, you need to talk about

          25    this with Dell.  And whatever we decide, I'll support you

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           1    100 percent."

           2         Q    And did you mean financial support, as well?

           3         A    Well, that was the -- that was the -- the only

           4    means of support that I was giving Mr. Dandar.

           5         Q    At the conclusion of the meeting, did you have any

           6    conversation -- further conversation with Mr. Dandar about

           7    the meeting?

           8         A    Yes.  When we -- when we left the building, Stacy

           9    Brooks and I were going down -- Jesse Prince was in the

          10    elevator, as well.  Mr. Dandar came down the elevator with

          11    us.  And before the elevator got -- it was only two floors,

          12    so when it got to the first floor, before the door opened,

          13    Mr. Dandar said that, "Look, this meeting never happened and

          14    we can't talk about it."

          15         Q    And what did you say, if you recall?

          16         A    "Okay."

          17         Q    Did you have an understanding why you were being

          18    told not to talk about the meeting?

          19         A    Well, I got the impression generally that this is

          20    not something I should have been involved in.

          21              MR. FUGATE:  May I have a moment, your Honor?

          22              THE COURT:  You may.

          23    BY MR. FUGATE:

          24         Q    And you mentioned that Mr. Dandar had sent you a

          25    six- or seven-inch packet of pleadings.  How long before

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           1    that package -- or had you ever been getting packages of

           2    pleadings in the case from Mr. Dandar before that?

           3         A    Yes.

           4         Q    And did you continue to get them after that fall

           5    meeting?

           6         A    Yes.

           7         Q    Wherever it was?

           8         A    Well, in fact, I got them somewhat more after that

           9    fall meeting because of the LMT being down there.  And, you

          10    know, whether he would send them over to the LMT, or whether

          11    Jesse would bring them back, or Stacy would bring them back,

          12    you know, there were more of them at that stage.

          13         Q    And did -- were there times when Mr. Dandar would

          14    discuss things that -- that were confidential in the case

          15    with you, do you recall?

          16         A    Yes.

          17              MR. FUGATE:  May I approach?

          18              THE COURT:  You may.

          19              MR. FUGATE:  This will be 98.

          20              THE COURT:  You may have the same permission I

          21         gave Mr. Lirot.  As long as you have papers in your

          22         hand, feel free.

          23              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, it's a custom with me.

          24              THE COURT:  I know it is.  And that is fine,

          25         too.

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           1              MR. FUGATE:  I remember one time --

           2              THE COURT:  If you don't remember, it will be

           3         all right.

           4              MR. FUGATE:  All right.  This is 98, Judge.

           5         I'll give you a courtesy copy.  I'll give this to

           6         the witness.

           7    BY MR. FUGATE:

           8         Q    Would you take a look at this posting and see if

           9    you can identify the posting.

          10              MR. DANDAR:  What exhibit number?

          11              MR. FUGATE:  98.  I'm sorry.

          12         A    Yes.

          13    BY MR. FUGATE:

          14         Q    Is this a posting?

          15         A    That --

          16         Q    I'm sorry?

          17         A    That is a posting I made to that

          18    alt.religion.scientology group.

          19              THE COURT:  I'm sure I'm just missing this, but

          20         where is it you are posting this here?  Bobbarn --

          21         is that you, too?

          22              THE WITNESS:  Well, that was another address,

          23         your Honor.

          24              THE COURT:  So any postings I see in here that

          25         has Bobbarn whatever the rest of this is, that would

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           1         be you, as well?

           2              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.

           3              THE COURT:  I see you have Robertsminton, too.

           4         So you have two posting -- addresses, whatever you

           5         call it?

           6              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

           7              THE COURT:  I got it.

           8    BY MR. FUGATE:

           9         Q    Do you see a portion highlighted in yellow there?

          10         A    Yes.  I do.

          11              MR. FUGATE:  First of all, may I move this into

          12         evidence as Defendant's Exhibit Number 98?

          13              MR. DANDAR:  No objection.

          14              THE COURT:  It will be received.

          15    BY MR. FUGATE:

          16         Q    Could you read the yellow portion, sir, the

          17    highlighted portion?

          18         A    "After the insulting settlement proposals and

          19    multimedia cryathon presented to Lisa's family and

          20    Mr. Dandar."

          21         Q    Were you made privy to any information about a

          22    settlement proceeding?

          23         A    Yes.  Mr. Dandar told me about this discussion

          24    that took place in this -- I think it was in July sometime

          25    of '98.

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           1         Q    And did you understand that to be a mediation?

           2         A    I just understood it as a settlement conference.

           3    I didn't -- the word "mediation," at least to my memory,

           4    didn't come up.

           5         Q    Did you know that it was confidential?  Or did you

           6    have any information that it was a confidential meeting?  At

           7    that time, I should ask.

           8         A    Yeah.  Yeah.  It was not something to be

           9    broadcast.

          10         Q    And several months later, you put an Internet

          11    posting out about it, though?

          12         A    Yes.

          13         Q    Now, did you ever receive copies of depositions

          14    from Mr. Dandar that related to the wrongful death case?

          15         A    Yes.  I did.

          16         Q    In case I didn't make myself clear, the settlement

          17    offer, did you understand that to be in the wrongful death

          18    case?

          19         A    Yes.  It was.

          20         Q    Did you ever receive any depositions from

          21    Mr. Dandar that you understood to be taken in the wrongful

          22    death case?

          23         A    Yes.

          24         Q    Did you have any understanding, when you were

          25    receiving -- well, can you tell us when, if you recall,

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           1    time-wise?

           2         A    Oh, well, I got several.  It would have -- I

           3    wasn't really able to look to see what I might have had

           4    because the special master had all those.

           5         Q    You mean these were documents at the LMT --

           6         A    These were documents I either received at the

           7    LMT -- I'm certain I received at least one or two hard copy

           8    documents in New Hampshire.  And then depositions, that is.

           9    And at least one or two E-Mails from Mr. Dandar with

          10    depositions -- of depositions.

          11         Q    You mean like an ASCII disk, E-Mail of the

          12    deposition?

          13         A    Yes.

          14         Q    Were you told they were confidential depositions

          15    and not to distribute them?

          16         A    You know, I don't think I was.  I mean, I

          17    remember -- because it was fairly recent, the last one that

          18    was E-mailed to me, it was, "Don't say you got this from

          19    me," he said, "and don't post it on the Internet, and also

          20    don't say you got it from me."

          21         Q    Do you remember which deposition it was, as you

          22    sit here?

          23         A    It was a deposition of Teresa Summers.

          24         Q    Did you post it on the Internet?

          25         A    No, I didn't.

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           1              MR. FUGATE:  May I have a moment, your Honor?

           2              THE COURT:  You may.

           3              MR. FUGATE:  May I --

           4              THE COURT:  Just so I know, what are you

           5         talking about, disks?  The court reporter, do they

           6         give you-all disks of something, or depositions?

           7              MR. FUGATE:  It just went over my head.  But as

           8         I understand it, there are disks, like a floppy

           9         disk, that you can get delivered with a transcript

          10         of the deposition which will have the deposition on

          11         it and, therefore, can be E-mailed.  Am I --

          12              MR. MOXON:  Right.

          13              THE COURT:  The court reporter gives those to

          14         folks if they ask for them or pay for them?

          15              MR. FUGATE:  When they pay for the

          16         transcription, your Honor.

          17              THE COURT:  Okay.

          18              MR. FUGATE:  It's a way you can input it into a

          19         computerized system for searches and what have you.

          20              I just expended all my knowledge.

          21              THE COURT:  Well, you had more than I.

          22              MR. FUGATE:  This is 99.

          23    BY MR. FUGATE:

          24         Q    This is something I think you may remember, the

          25    Brenda Hubert knowledge report.

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           1              Did you receive, sir -- first of all let me ask

           2    you, can you identify the posting I handed you as

           3    Defendant's Exhibit 99?

           4         A    Yes.  This is an Internet posting that I made to

           5    alt.religion.scientology.

           6         Q    And did you receive what you understood to be a

           7    knowledge report of Brenda Hubert?

           8         A    Yes, I did.

           9         Q    And can you tell us how you came to receive that?

          10         A    Mmm, I received it from Mr. Dandar at his office

          11    on -- sometime in -- not exactly on, but early 1999.

          12         Q    And were you given any instructions when you

          13    received it?

          14         A    It was, "Don't say you got this from me.  And

          15    don't put it on the Internet."

          16         Q    Did you put it on the Internet?

          17         A    About a year later, yes.

          18         Q    And did you -- were you ever asked as to where you

          19    got it by anyone?

          20         A    Yes.  In a deposition.  In my -- yeah, in a

          21    deposition, I was asked if I got it from Mr. Dandar.  And --

          22         Q    What did you answer?

          23         A    I said no.

          24         Q    What did you say in that deposition?

          25         A    I said that I got it in an envelope from somebody,

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           1    you know, postmarked Florida, anonymously.

           2         Q    Was that true and accurate testimony at that time?

           3         A    It wasn't.  And it was one of the items that I

           4    covered in my recantation affidavit.  I believe it was.

           5         Q    Did you receive E-Mails from --

           6              THE COURT:  Of all this, this is the one thing

           7         I asked for.  There was a name for it.

           8              MR. FUGATE:  It was a knowledge report.

           9              THE COURT:  A knowledge report?  Okay.

          10              MR. FUGATE:  Of Brenda Hubert, your Honor.

          11              THE COURT:  Thank you.

          12    BY MR. FUGATE:

          13         Q    And, in any event, sometime later, I think you

          14    said about a year later, you posted the contents of it on

          15    the Internet?

          16         A    Yes.

          17         Q    And what was the purpose of posting a document

          18    that had been received in the wrongful death case on the

          19    Internet by you?

          20         A    Well, this was basically to try to put pressure on

          21    Brenda Hubert to come forward with what we expected was

          22    different information than what had been coming out so far

          23    from the Scientology side in the wrongful death case.

          24         Q    Would you say to put pressure on her?  What did

          25    you mean by that -- or what do you mean by that now?

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           1         A    Well, you know, to make her feel bad about what

           2    had happened with Lisa.  And, you know, try to put her in a

           3    position -- or, you know, just put pressure on her to come

           4    forward and tell the truth, because, you know, we didn't

           5    think she was telling the truth about all of the things that

           6    happened with Lisa McPherson.

           7              THE COURT:  If I might just ask this witness,

           8         what was it that gave you occasion to believe that

           9         Brenda, whoever she was, Hubert --

          10              THE WITNESS:  Hubert.

          11              THE COURT:  -- from the Church of Scientology

          12         was reading this fairly offensive website?

          13              THE WITNESS:  Well, you know, it was just a

          14         chance that somebody else might read it who might

          15         have gotten it to her.

          16              And, you know, Mr. Dandar thought this woman

          17         definitely had more information than she was

          18         providing.

          19              THE COURT:  But nothing beyond a hope or

          20         some -- maybe somehow it would wind its way there?

          21              THE WITNESS:  Right.  There wasn't any, you

          22         know, targeted effort to get it to her.

          23              THE COURT:  Okay.

          24    BY MR. FUGATE:

          25         Q    You knew that Brenda Hubert was a witness in the

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           1    case for the Church of Scientology.  Correct?

           2         A    Yes.

           3         Q    Did you, in fact, phone Brenda Hubert?

           4         A    You know, I might have.  I might have.  I -- I

           5    have a recollection of it.  Yeah, I believe I did.

           6         Q    Do you remember the purpose of that telephone call

           7    to Brenda Hubert?

           8         A    Well, if she hadn't had it brought to her

           9    attention before this thing was posted on the Internet, I

          10    was trying to make sure that she got it brought to her

          11    attention.

          12         Q    Now, besides the E-mailing of depositions in the

          13    case and the postings that we've talked about, did you

          14    receive E-Mails from Mr. Dandar about the case throughout

          15    this period of time, '98, '99, 2000, 2001?

          16         A    Mr. Dandar didn't tend to write much -- or put

          17    much in writing about the case.  He would send me E-Mails

          18    concerning the case.  But they were generally requests for

          19    money for the case.

          20         Q    And I think I asked you this before.  But would

          21    they go to -- which computers of yours would they go to?

          22    The computer at the LMT?  The home?  The laptop?

          23         A    Well, they would go potentially to all of them

          24    because, you know, if I downloaded in New Hampshire, you

          25    know, I -- at that stage, I was keeping my mail on the

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           1    server.  I think I have got it set up so that after two

           2    retrievals, it deletes it from the server.

           3              But it is on the two computers I would retrieve it

           4    from.  So you get it on one computer, and then it

           5    automatically, when you retrieve it from your laptop, it

           6    takes it off the server that holds your E-mail, the Internet

           7    service provider you have, from their server.  So I could

           8    have gotten it on any or all of them.

           9         Q    Are you saying it was sent to any or all addresses

          10    so you can get it wherever you were, if I understand what

          11    you were saying?

          12         A    That is not exactly right.  But Mr. Dandar also

          13    did send them to multiple addresses of mine.

          14         Q    Let's get exactly what happened with the E-Mails,

          15    the best you recall.

          16         A    Okay.  Well, this goes back to the question as to

          17    where I would have got them, which computers I would have

          18    got them on.

          19              As I said, I could have got them on all three

          20    computers, for example.  But when Mr. Dandar would send me

          21    one of these E-Mails, he would address it to Bob@Minton.org,

          22    or Bobminton@Lisatrust.net, then a third one which was wrong

          23    and he kept sending it to this wrong address, but it didn't

          24    matter because I got it at one of the other two.

          25         Q    Did you get a -- phone calls from Mr. Dandar to

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           1    discuss the case or in which you discussed the case?

           2         A    Yes.  There were phone calls in which we discussed

           3    the case.

           4              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, I'm going to break off at

           5         that point because I'll go back once we get the

           6         phone bill issue -- I'll make a note to myself here.

           7              THE COURT:  All right.

           8              MR. FUGATE:  May I have a moment?

           9              THE COURT:  You may.

          10              MR. FUGATE:  Take a moment, Judge.  I have to

          11         flip-flop what I was doing here.

          12    BY MR. FUGATE:

          13         Q    If you go back to Defendant's Exhibit 81, if that

          14    is still up there, which I think is the LMT list of board

          15    members, advisory members.

          16         A    Oh, yes.  It is probably on the bottom here.  Yes.

          17         Q    As part of your being "Public Enemy Number 1" of

          18    Scientology, as you said, did you have -- or did you cause

          19    other people to come to Florida to assist in the litigation

          20    in any way?  By that, I mean to assist in the litigation.

          21         A    Yes.

          22         Q    And can you tell us what you -- how you -- who you

          23    brought in and how you accomplished that.

          24         A    Dan Leipold and Ford Greene.

          25         Q    What did Dan Leipold -- when I say litigation, I

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           1    mean the wrongful death case.

           2         A    Well, there were -- you know, Leipold, which I

           3    already testified about, I think your Honor heard all you

           4    need to hear about my relationship with him -- but, you

           5    know, he was somewhat of -- he was more experienced in the

           6    Scientology litigation arena than Mr. Dandar.

           7              And there came a time, and I think it was in 2000,

           8    summer of 2000, that Mr. Dandar needed help with respect to

           9    two issues --

          10         Q    Do you recall what the issues were?

          11         A    -- in this case.

          12              Yeah.  One was this religiosity.  And I think

          13    there has been long hearings on that.

          14              And the second one, which I'm not sure whether it

          15    has ever really come to play in this case, was on the alter

          16    ego issue.

          17              Ford Greene was an attorney who had expertise in

          18    the first amendment issues and religiosity angle.

          19              And Leipold was anxious to get involved in this

          20    case in some way.  And, you know, I was -- I was pushing

          21    Mr. Dandar to get Dan Leipold and Ford Greene involved in

          22    this case because of their expertise, you know, on the

          23    anti-Scientology type litigation.

          24              So they came down here and they had meetings with

          25    Mr. Dandar concerning these issues.

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           1         Q    Had you gotten any requests for assistance?

           2         A    What do you mean, requests for assistance?

           3         Q    Had you been in communication with Mr. Dandar

           4    about the two issues that you talked about?

           5         A    No.  I don't think he requested anything of me

           6    about that.  No.

           7         Q    So --

           8         A    But Leipold wanted to get involved in this case.

           9    Leipold knew what the issues were in this case.  And he was

          10    happy to get involved.  I mean, he thought it was a good

          11    case.  I think, you know, he was looking to make some money

          12    out of it, to actually get some fees out of it or something.

          13              And, really, I think where the whole breakdown

          14    happened between Mr. Dandar and Leipold and Greene was over

          15    Mr. Dandar's reluctance to give up part of his contingency

          16    fee.

          17              In fact, what happened, Mr. Leipold, because of

          18    this reluctance on Mr. Dandar's part, he said, "Look, I'm

          19    not going to work on this thing unless you're going to pay

          20    me some hourly fees."

          21              I said, "Well, what's it going to cost?"

          22              So he eventually sent me a budget, which he also

          23    sent to Mr. Dandar, concerning how much it would cost for

          24    him to work on this, you know, without any contingency

          25    arrangement, without having any benefit of participating in

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           1    Mr. Dandar's contingency arrangement.

           2         Q    Did you, in fact, make any payments to Mr. Leipold

           3    for assistance in the case?

           4         A    Well, through the moneys I loaned to the estate,

           5    because he did do work -- he and Mr. Greene both did work on

           6    the case.  And, you know, they were paid.  But not directly

           7    by me but, you know, through the moneys that were loaned to

           8    the estate.

           9         Q    But, in any event, to your understanding, they

          10    couldn't get into the contingency arrangement, so did they

          11    do anything else in the case?

          12         A    Mmm, well, yes.  I mean, you know, Ford Greene did

          13    prepare this whole motion or argument on the religiosity

          14    issue.

          15              The reason Mr. Leipold was needed with Ford Greene

          16    involved, because Ford Greene was somebody who was a little

          17    erratic and needed somebody to shepherd him on his work.

          18    And he was not somebody who Mr. Dandar or Mr. Leipold

          19    thought could be left on his own to do the work, that he

          20    needed somebody to sort of ride herd on him.

          21              There were other problems that developed between

          22    Mr. Dandar, Leipold and Ford Greene that sort of added to

          23    their inability to get together.

          24         Q    Did you bring in -- if you'll look on the -- I

          25    have it here --

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           1         A    If I could just add one other thing there

           2    concerning this.

           3              Back in January of 1998, and I know that is a big

           4    jump back, but the law firm in Boston that was representing

           5    me in the first deposition that I ever had in this case was

           6    Hale & Dorr.  Steve Jonas, who was my attorney who

           7    represented me on, you know, non-litigation matters up to

           8    that point, you know, he said to me at that time --

           9              MR. HOWIE:  Objection on the grounds of

          10         attorney-client privilege.

          11              MR. DANDAR:  Objection.  Hearsay and relevance.

          12              THE COURT:  Well, the privilege is his.  So is

          13         the waiver.  But it is hearsay.

          14              MR. DANDAR:  Hearsay.

          15              THE COURT:  I'll sustain it.

          16              MR. FUGATE:  I'll ask my question, Judge.

          17         A    Well --

          18    BY MR. FUGATE:

          19         Q    I think there was an objection and you should

          20    abide by your attorney's advice.

          21         A    Okay.

          22         Q    My question is going to be, were you aware of a

          23    witness being utilized in the wrongful death case by the

          24    name of Gerry Armstrong?

          25         A    Yes.

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           1         Q    Is Gerry Armstrong also an individual that you had

           2    provided funds to?

           3         A    Yes, he is.

           4         Q    Is that the same Gerry Armstrong we see on the

           5    advisory committee?

           6         A    Yes.

           7         Q    And did you bring Mr. Armstrong to Florida to

           8    participate in the wrongful death case?

           9         A    Well, you know, the money that -- that I was

          10    loaning to the estate got him here.  I mean, I didn't

          11    specifically pay him to come here directly.  But definitely

          12    he was -- well, he had either used moneys that I had given

          13    him before to come here, or he used moneys that Mr. Dandar

          14    received, you know, on behalf of the estate and paid him to

          15    come here.

          16         Q    And prior to his coming here, was he, Gerry

          17    Armstrong, someone you had known and dealt with in the past?

          18         A    Yes.

          19         Q    And was he someone that you knew to be involved in

          20    anti-Scientology litigation/criticism?

          21         A    Very much so.

          22         Q    And were there any restrictions on his appearing

          23    as a witness, if you know, in a case?

          24         A    Yes.  There were.

          25         Q    And what were those restrictions, if you know?

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           1         A    Well, he entered into a settlement agreement with

           2    the Church of Scientology --

           3              THE COURT:  I'm sure this is of some interest

           4         to me, but it escapes me, quite frankly.  Maybe

           5         because it is late on Friday afternoon, but what do

           6         I care what Gerry Armstrong did out in a California

           7         court and how he breached it and now he escaped the

           8         country and he has all kinds of debts he owes?

           9              The deal is that is not what this case is about

          10         right here.

          11              MR. FUGATE:  I agree with you, Judge.  The

          12         point I was --

          13              THE COURT:  How nice.

          14              MR. FUGATE:  Well, you know, it is late and I

          15         think it is time to agree on something.

          16    BY MR. FUGATE:

          17         Q    Could he come and be a witness in the wrongful

          18    death case, to your knowledge?

          19              MR. DANDAR:  Objection.  Legal conclusion.

          20         Outside of the scope of the affidavits, motions.

          21              THE COURT:  Absolutely.  Sustained on any basis

          22         that you can come up with.

          23              MR. DANDAR:  Thank you.

          24              THE COURT:  I think I already told you, I don't

          25         care about it.

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           1              MR. FUGATE:  I'm moving on then, Judge.

           2    BY MR. FUGATE:

           3         Q    How about --

           4              MR. DANDAR:  It's Friday.

           5              MR. FUGATE:  It is Friday.  Thank goodness.

           6    BY MR. FUGATE:

           7         Q    How about Mr. Ward?  Did you arrange for him to

           8    come here and, if you did, what did he do?

           9              MR. DANDAR:  Same objection, outside of the

          10         scope of all their motions.

          11              THE COURT:  I mean, maybe you can help to tell

          12         me what this has to do with.  It's lost on me.

          13              MR. FUGATE:  All right.  Let me try it this

          14         way.

          15    BY MR. FUGATE:

          16         Q    Were there any discussions with Mr. Dandar about

          17    the formation of the LMT?  I know I'm jumping ahead here,

          18    but -- and purposes that you both discussed of utilizing the

          19    LMT for?

          20         A    Yes.

          21         Q    And could you tell us what you recall of those

          22    discussions?

          23         A    Well, the LMT was going to be, you know, sort of

          24    the leading anti-Scientology group.  And it was going to be

          25    based here in Florida, in Clearwater.

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           1         Q    Why did it have to be based in Clearwater?

           2         A    Well, it would be more in Scientology's face that

           3    way.  That, you know, this -- this is where their spiritual

           4    headquarters is located.  And if you were within the same --

           5    you know, Clearwater being a very small town, you would

           6    obviously have lots of interactions with Scientology.

           7         Q    In-your-face interactions?

           8         A    Yes.  And this would generate lots of media, you

           9    know.  It would also -- you know, the organization was also

          10    very clearly set up to help people who, you know, had

          11    problems of some sort with Scientology --

          12         Q    Was --

          13         A    -- you know.

          14         Q    Was there any discussion about causing media

          15    attention?

          16         A    Yes.

          17         Q    And can you tell us about that?

          18              THE COURT:  All I care about is any discussions

          19         he had with Mr. Dandar.

          20              MR. FUGATE:  I should --

          21         A    Yes.

          22              THE COURT:  This idea of being in Scientology's

          23         face, putting the group here, was your idea, wasn't

          24         it?

          25              THE WITNESS:  It was something that was

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           1         discussed with Mr. Dandar, too.

           2    BY MR. FUGATE:

           3         Q    Well, let me ask you --

           4         A    It was my -- it was my idea to set up this group,

           5    you know, this discussing this matter, you know, going back

           6    even to the summer of --

           7              MR. FUGATE:  I think the Judge is asking you to

           8         confine discussions to you and Mr. Dandar.

           9         A    That is what I was going to do here.

          10    BY MR. FUGATE:

          11         Q    I'm sorry?

          12         A    I'm sorry.  Even going back to the summer of 1999,

          13    this was discussed.  You know, this was -- you know, the

          14    whole concept of putting this organization or creating this

          15    organization was an idea that -- that the three sisters were

          16    talking about.

          17         Q    When you say the three sisters --

          18         A    I mean Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson and Lee

          19    Skelton.  And so even back in the summer of '99, we were

          20    discussing -- I mean, Mr. Dandar and I were discussing the

          21    creation of this group.

          22              You know, there was -- there was -- Stacy Brooks

          23    was somebody who was saying that she would prefer to see the

          24    thing located in -- located in Washington.  And Mr. Dandar

          25    and I were both anxious to have it in Florida.

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           1         Q    And were there discussions about why you wanted to

           2    have it in Florida, between you and Mr. Dandar?

           3         A    Yes.  You know --

           4         Q    And can you tell us what was discussed as to why

           5    it needed to be in Florida?

           6         A    Well, this was -- this was where the action was.

           7    This was where this case was.  You know, this organization

           8    was going to be named after the lady who this case was all

           9    about.

          10         Q    Lisa McPherson?

          11         A    Lisa McPherson.  Yes.

          12         Q    Whose idea was it to use her name for this

          13    organization?

          14         A    Mr. Dandar's.

          15         Q    Did you have to get authorization -- did you, sir,

          16    have to get authorization to use Lisa McPherson's name?

          17         A    Well, I said to him, you know, "I think we should

          18    have some authorization to use this name."

          19         Q    Did you get authorization to use the name?

          20         A    He said that he talked to Dell, and Dell said it

          21    was perfectly acceptable to her.

          22         Q    And did you ever have a conversation with Dell

          23    Liebreich yourself where she authorized that use to you?

          24         A    I don't believe I did.

          25         Q    Did she ever acknowledge that she had authorized

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                                                                        180


           1    it, to you?

           2         A    Mmm, I don't think so.

           3         Q    I see her name on the board of directors.  How did

           4    she get on the board of directors?

           5         A    Mr. Dandar thought it would be a good idea for her

           6    to be on the board, as well as one of the other family

           7    members.  I remember it was another -- a younger generation

           8    family member that Mr. Dandar thought would be appropriate,

           9    so there would be a continuity from the family's

          10    perspective, because the three -- the three sisters are

          11    fairly elderly, you know, when they passed away, that there

          12    would still be a younger generation relative of Lisa

          13    McPherson connected with the organization.

          14              THE COURT:  Who might that be?  I just don't

          15         know.

          16              THE WITNESS:  Her name is Kim Krenek.

          17    BY MR. FUGATE:

          18         Q    Is she listed on the exhibit, one name up from

          19    Dell Liebreich?

          20         A    Yes, she is.

          21              THE COURT:  Thanks.

          22    BY MR. FUGATE:

          23         Q    Now, could you -- let me ask you this.  Were there

          24    discussions about picketing that took place between you and

          25    Mr. Dandar?

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           1         A    Mmm, yes.

           2         Q    And can you tell us about those discussions?

           3         A    Well, he --

           4              THE COURT:  Are we going to go into picketing

           5         now, a different area?

           6              MR. FUGATE:  Yes.

           7              THE COURT:  Why don't we stop.  It is 25 after,

           8         I think.

           9              MR. FUGATE:  Fine with me, Judge.

          10              THE COURT:  Right there.  We'll pick it up on

          11         picketing.

          12              MR. FUGATE:  Pick up at picketing.

          13              THE COURT:  We'll be in recess until Tuesday.

          14         Monday I have to be in Tallahassee.  So I'll see you

          15         all nine o'clock on Tuesday.

          16              MR. FUGATE:  Thank you, your Honor.

          17                (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

          18

          19

          20

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           1                      REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

           2

           3    STATE OF FLORIDA         )

           4    COUNTY OF PINELLAS       )

           5              I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
                certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
           6    report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
                a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
           7
                          I further certify that I am not a relative,
           8    employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
                am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
           9    attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
                financially interested in the action.
          10

          11              DATED this 19th day of May, 2002.

          12

          13

          14                              ______________________________
                                              LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
          15

          16

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          18

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          24

          25

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