1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 5 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 15 DATE: May 22, 2002, morning session. 16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 17 St. Petersburg, Florida. 18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 20 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 21 22 23 24 25 0527
1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 6 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 7 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 8 MR. LEE FUGATE and 9 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 10 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 11 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 12 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 13 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 14 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 17 APPEARANCES (Continued) 18 ALSO PRESENT: 19 Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector 20 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 21 Ms. Joyce Earl Mr. Brian Asay 22 23 24 25 0528
1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 Defendant's 97 (In evidence) 565 18 Defendant's 114-A, B, CPhotos 588 12 4 Defendant's 115 Photo 593 5 Defendant's 115 (In evidence) 596 4 5 Recess 599 12 Defendant's 116 and 117Photos 599 25 6 Defendant's 116 (In evidence) 601 15 Defendant's 118-A, B and CIncorporation 610 24 7 papers Defendant's 118-A, B and C(In evidence) 612 1 8 Recess 654 11 Reporter's Certificate 655 1 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0529
1 (Commencing at 9:08 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Good morning. 3 MR. DANDAR: Good morning, your Honor. 4 It was made known to me just a few minutes ago, 5 although counsel had called my office yesterday, 6 saying he had a conflict today and he wanted to be 7 present during Mr. Merrett's testimony, and I -- I 8 couldn't figure out why that necessarily would be so 9 because he wouldn't be questioning the witness, but 10 apparently there may be some questions of 11 privilege -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. I didn't hear. Who 13 has the conflict? 14 THE COURT: Merrett. Merrett does not have the 15 conflict; Ms. Brooks' lawyer has the conflict. And 16 he wants to be present. 17 Now, I was trying to accommodate Mr. Merrett, 18 but Mr. Dandar tells me he can come tomorrow as well 19 as today. 20 MR. DANDAR: I just talked to him on the phone 21 as you walked in, and he said tomorrow's fine. 22 THE COURT: So is there any problem with that? 23 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: So can we tell him 9:00 tomorrow? 25 MR. DANDAR: 2:00. He leaves -- he's in 0530
1 Jacksonville. 2 THE COURT: 2:00 tomorrow. Okay. 3 Then can you make it at 2:00? 4 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, I can, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: 2:00, or whenever we come back from 6 lunch. That would be great if we can just take him 7 up after the lunch break. We won't be mad at him if 8 he's here by 2. But if he's here by 1:30, that'll 9 be better. So why don't you come around 1:30? 10 MR. McGOWAN: Great. I'll be here. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Now, I got to looking at 12 this -- these cases this morning, and I also 13 realized that I wasn't even sure what all had 14 transpired. Getting old. I don't do well after 15 5:00. I can only work about seven hours, especially 16 on cases like that that are fairly tedious and hard 17 to absorb. 18 In any event, I -- I reread the cases. 19 And first of all, Mr. Dandar, in your suggested 20 order you're referring to these cases by -- by the 21 number. They surely are out in Florida band sheets 22 by now, aren't they? 23 MR. DANDAR: I would guess they are. 24 THE COURT: Florida Law Weekly or something. 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes, they are. Yes. 0531
1 THE COURT: So we need to have a Florida Law 2 Weekly cite. 3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Fine. I'll -- 4 THE COURT: Because frankly, if anybody were to 5 show something to a judge and cite some district 6 court number, they wouldn't have a clue how to find 7 it. So whatever I do, I want Florida Law Weekly 8 cites. 9 The second thing is, I noticed as I read this, 10 and speaking specifically of the one that involved 11 Mr. Minton. And since I don't have a Florida Law 12 Weekly cite right now, it's Second DCA, 2D01-4036. 13 That's styled the same as another case, but it's the 14 Estate of Lisa McPherson, by and through the 15 personal representative, Dell Liebreich, petitioner, 16 versus Church of Scientology Flag Service 17 Organization, Inc., respondent. I notice the other 18 defendants are not named. 19 In any event, in that case, they're talking 20 about, at issue here is the discovery, and then they 21 cite to what the challenged order requires the 22 estate to produce. It says, "Plaintiff's counsel is 23 to produce within 20 days all documents in his 24 possession, custody or control concerning the 25 payment by Robert Minton or any other entity 0532
1 associated with Robert Minton, directly or 2 indirectly, during the period of January 1, 2000 to 3 the present, of any sum of money exceeding $500, to 4 the plaintiff or her attorney or any representative 5 or agent of the plaintiff, intended for any cost, 6 expense or fee associated with this litigation, 7 including without limitation any deposit slips, bank 8 statements, checks, wire transfer records and bank 9 drafts." 10 Now -- and they go on to discuss this. And 11 this is the language that I was looking for 12 yesterday off the top of my head. And obviously, I 13 didn't have it. But it says here, "The defendant in 14 a wrongful death case is seeking --" this is on page 15 3 of the court's order -- "Here the defendant in a 16 wrongful death case is seeking information from the 17 plaintiff and its counsel regarding Minton's 18 contributions to fund the litigation. As the estate 19 contends, this will create a chilling effect on 20 receiving future funding. Furthermore, the estate 21 points out that if it is forced to disclose how much 22 money it has to spend on litigation prior to 23 conclusion of the case, the church will know how 24 long the estate, quote," and I say quote -- they 25 said quote, "can last before it has to throw in the 0533
1 towel due to lack of funds, end quote." 2 "The fact that this is the church's 41st 3 request for production bolsters the conclusion that 4 the church will litigate until the estate can no 5 longer afford to continue. With this in mind, we 6 hold the request for production will cause the 7 estate to suffer irreparable harm." And then it 8 says -- it talks about whether or not this is 9 appropriate discovery. 10 "Therefore, whether the court," meaning Judge 11 Beach, "departed from the essential requirements of 12 the law." And it says, "Although the church 13 argues --" this is on page 4, "that Minton is a 14 nonparty who appears to control the estate's 15 attorney and witnesses through his, quote, 16 investment, end quote, in this case, we conclude 17 based on the record provided to this court that this 18 amounts to nothing more than mere speculation." 19 Now, on the first or second day of this 20 particular hearing that I've conducted, I was 21 advised of another opinion that had come out of the 22 district court. And that opinion is 2D01-2518. The 23 second opinion in this case -- in other words, the 24 case of the Estate of Lisa McPherson versus Church 25 of Scientology -- dealt with a similar request, only 0534
1 it had to do with people other than Minton. So it 2 was -- there were two things: One dealing with 3 Minton specifically, one dealing with people other 4 than Mr. Minton. 5 This case, however, the 2D01-2518, was a sort 6 of related case, the breach of contract case out of 7 Clearwater. And in that particular case, I know 8 that the church made reference to, in its filing, 9 something about the -- the procedure that was going 10 on in front of Judge Baird regarding the allegation 11 of perjury and this type of thing. So they had some 12 knowledge of it, obviously. They didn't have what 13 we're doing as we're progressing day-to-day, because 14 that's not before them on anything right now, but in 15 that case. 16 And it says -- and I'm quoting from the opinion 17 on page 2, here -- "The church is again seeking 18 information on who is providing funds and in what 19 amounts to the estate's counsel or to any other 20 counsel to defend the estate or personal 21 representative individually. We determine that this 22 discovery of financial sources is irrelevant and not 23 admissible or reasonably calculated to lead to 24 admissible evidence in this breach of contract and 25 tortious interference case." 0535
1 It also says that, "The church argues in its 2 opinion here that our opinion in the McPherson 3 wrongful death action quashing the discovery order 4 is inapplicable. We conclude otherwise." 5 So if I put all those things together, what it 6 tells me and what I think I was saying yesterday -- 7 although I hadn't read the opinion as clearly as I 8 read this morning after I had a good night's 9 sleep -- that even though what was requested was the 10 persons contributing, and what amounts, that what 11 they were suggesting -- and perhaps this comes from 12 a specific request, including without limitation any 13 deposit slips, bank statements, checks, wire 14 transfers, records and bank drafts, particularly 15 that part of the bank statements which would include 16 moneys going out -- 17 I think in reading it in its totality, what the 18 Second District is saying is whether it's in this 19 case or whether it's in the breach of contract case, 20 the Second District is concerned with the church's 21 knowledge of the amount of money that the estate has 22 to continue with its litigation in the wrongful 23 death case. And it says so specifically when it 24 says, "The church will litigate until the estate can 25 no longer afford to continue." I mean, that's their 0536
1 words. That's what they conclude. That is not a 2 quote from Mr. Dandar; that's a quote -- that's the 3 Second District talking. 4 So consequently, I have a little -- I have 5 something different now, because Mr. Minton is no 6 longer a nonparty. He has now been added as a 7 party. And I therefore have got to consider the 8 request to produce that he has filed in a little 9 different vein than perhaps I -- I may have 10 otherwise. 11 I thought about this at some length, Mr. Howie, 12 this morning, as I was contemplating an order. And 13 I think my order will be directed to the church, and 14 not a protective order, as I said before. 15 But in any event, I -- I struggled with trying 16 to figure out how this information in this 17 proceeding -- not later in the litigation, 18 necessarily, but in this proceeding -- is relevant 19 to what it is that I'm to decide in this proceeding, 20 Mr. Howie. And I think that your request was that 21 you wanted these produced immediately to use here in 22 some fashion, not -- 23 MR. HOWIE: That's -- 24 THE COURT: -- down the road when Mr. Minton 25 was involved as a defendant in the counterclaim -- 0537
1 MR. HOWIE: That's correct. 2 THE COURT: -- here. 3 And so I was trying to figure this out by 4 thinking this through to its -- what I would guess 5 would be logical conclusion, which would be that as 6 a defendant in the counterclaim, that it is now 7 charged by the church in the counterclaim that the 8 plaintiff -- and including Mr. Minton now, who's a 9 counterdefendant -- were engaged in the abuse of 10 process, which is what the counterclaim is about, in 11 that it was using this wrongful death case for 12 improper purposes. And I'm assuming from what 13 they've said and what I've heard in the motion to 14 dismiss and what I'm hearing here, the improper 15 purpose was to destroy the church, et cetera. In 16 other words, that's the broad category. 17 I -- I wonder what -- the relevance of what 18 Mr. Dandar is doing with the money that was provided 19 by Mr. Minton, which he clearly says was to fund the 20 lawsuit. I mean, there doesn't seem to be a 21 dispute. I guess there isn't -- there may be a 22 dispute as to whether or not it was -- could be 23 used -- if the money was paid to Mr. Dandar or if 24 the money was to Mr. Dandar for the estate, and in 25 either event what it was to be used for. 0538
1 But for the sake of my discussion with you 2 right now, let's assume that the money was paid to 3 Mr. Dandar, who was to use it to fund the expenses 4 for this litigation. And if Mr. Dandar were to 5 provide you with those checks that show that indeed 6 he was funding the litigation, how does that assist 7 Mr. Minton in his being a defendant in the 8 counterclaim where he's here testifying in essence 9 exactly what the church wants to prove against him 10 and the estate? 11 So in essence, I'm having a hard time figuring 12 out the value of this request for production as to 13 Mr. Minton as a defendant in the counterclaim. 14 Because here in front of me, he is a witness. I 15 mean, that's what he is in this case. He's been 16 called as a witness, but where he's not a nonparty 17 anymore is as a -- now a defendant in the 18 counterclaim. So I'm trying to figure this all out 19 and sort it out in my head. 20 And I realize that when we were talking about 21 it yesterday it was after that magical hour of 5 22 where I don't think as clearly as I do in the 23 morning, so I thought I'd let you run that by me 24 again. 25 MR. HOWIE: I have two concerns with 0539
1 Mr. Minton. The counterclaim is only one of them. 2 The other is the proposed order to show cause, which 3 I anticipate receiving sometime in the near future; 4 perhaps once this proceeding is over with. I need 5 to be concerned for Mr. Minton on both of those 6 points. And I believe that Mr. Minton's credibility 7 would in turn have bearing on the outcome of the 8 order to show cause. 9 Frankly, I'm less concerned about the 10 counterclaim than I am about the order to show 11 cause. 12 THE COURT: I'm sorry. You're -- I'm -- 13 MR. HOWIE: I apologize. I'm -- 14 (There was an interruption in the proceedings and a 15 discussion was held off the record.) 16 MR. HOWIE: In any event, I'm at least 17 concerned for Mr. Minton about the proposed order to 18 show cause. Mr. Minton's credibility is at issue. 19 Mr. Minton's credibility will also, I believe -- I'm 20 anticipating in a ruling from this court -- but 21 enhancing or defeating Mr. Minton's credibility will 22 have a direct outcome on the order to show cause, 23 and I need to be concerned about that as well. I 24 need to demonstrate that Mr. Minton is telling the 25 truth when he says that Mr. Dandar influenced him or 0540
1 directed him to commit perjury in these depositions, 2 which I'm sure is the main concern of this court -- 3 THE COURT: Sure. 4 MR. HOWIE: -- in the order to show cause. 5 In order to enhance Mr. Minton's credibility on 6 this point, I need to show that there was a course 7 of conduct by Mr. Dandar to obtain funding for -- 8 from Mr. Minton, not merely for purposes of paying 9 the costs in this case, but possibly to enhance 10 Mr. Dandar's income, if it comes down to that. 11 The point is that if -- if Mr. Dandar is using 12 undue influence on Mr. Minton for the purposes of 13 putting Mr. Minton's money in his pocket, and we can 14 establish that through how this money was used, then 15 I think it enhances Mr. Minton's credibility when he 16 says that he was basically the puppet of Mr. Dandar 17 in handing over all this money and in going on with 18 Mr. Dandar in testifying the way he testified 19 perjuriously. 20 THE COURT: Okay. So your -- your concern then 21 is not here and now; is not in this -- in this 22 proceeding. There's no relevancy to that in this 23 proceeding. 24 MR. HOWIE: As I said, we are indifferent and 25 disinterested in the outcome of this particular 0541
1 proceeding, these particular motions. We have no 2 dog in this particular fight. I will agree with 3 that. 4 I'm concerned about Mr. Minton testifying now 5 in front of this court and how that ultimately will 6 affect decisions by this court in the future, the 7 order to show cause in particular. 8 THE COURT: Well, of course, my -- my original 9 concern and my concern still today, on an order to 10 show cause, is that Mr. Minton has filed an 11 affidavit saying he lied in a proceeding before this 12 court. 13 MR. HOWIE: Right. 14 THE COURT: And he said it. He says it in an 15 affidavit. That just can't be ignored by the court. 16 So that, I think, is where the court was coming from 17 as far as an order to show cause. 18 Obviously -- and I know you want the burden of 19 proof here, and I don't even know who has the burden 20 of proof, to tell you the truth, on a motion to 21 dismiss -- I would suspect it would be the church 22 and suspect it would be the church's burden on a 23 request to dismiss counsel. 24 And I've reconsidered what I said yesterday. 25 They have not moved to have a default entered 0542
1 against Mr. Minton, and they really couldn't, 'cause 2 he wasn't a party at that time, and he would be 3 entitled naturally to the same due process that the 4 estate is entitled to in this hearing, which is why 5 I'm conducting this lengthy evidentiary type 6 hearing. So I was wrong in whatever I was thinking 7 about yesterday. 8 So if the church can't obtain that relief, they 9 could obtain it in another proceeding, but they 10 can't obtain it in this proceeding, because he 11 wasn't a party and he's not participating, so his 12 due process hasn't been afforded yet. 13 So whatever I said yesterday that -- forget 14 that, because that can't happen. 15 MR. WEINBERG: It was late. 16 THE COURT: It was late. Right. 17 MR. HOWIE: I should have raised that point 18 myself. 19 THE COURT: It was late. 20 MR. HOWIE: He has not filed a responsive 21 pleading. 22 THE COURT: Right. And if he had, you're not 23 participating, cross examining or asking questions. 24 He was here simply here as a witness. So -- 25 MR. HOWIE: Going to his affidavit -- that's my 0543
1 point. Having filed this affidavit, the 26-page 2 affidavit, he has made many accusations against 3 Mr. Dandar. It's our position that this information 4 that we are seeking in the request to produce would 5 support his contentions in that affidavit against 6 Mr. Dandar, and that's why we're seeking this 7 information. 8 THE COURT: All right. I think that -- I think 9 two things: 10 One, that the church may have some interest in 11 having this information for the same reason you do 12 as it might regard Mr. Minton's credibility. 13 Although frankly, I'm having trouble figuring out 14 how that supports his credibility. I don't know. 15 Because I -- but in any event -- because if Mr. -- 16 if Mr. Dandar has in effect put the money in his 17 pocket, I believe that would be consistent with what 18 he's testified he was permitted to do, which was to 19 do anything he wanted to do with the money. I think 20 he said that. I don't know for sure, but I think I 21 remember reading that. And of course, Mr. Minton 22 will testify that's not so. 23 So there we are. You have two people saying 24 different things, and no -- nothing in writing, of 25 course. Well, we have some writings as to that, a 0544
1 little bit, so -- so -- I'm not sure exactly how 2 that will -- could help, but it might. And I 3 certainly don't -- I don't doubt your honesty when 4 you say you would like to have it for that purpose. 5 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. And of course, we 6 could respect any protective order by the court 7 concerning sharing of that information. 8 What I would like to do as we proceed through 9 this -- looking at Mr. Minton's affidavit, I think 10 the court could see where having some information on 11 the use of these funds might pertain to certain 12 statements throughout -- scattered drought his 13 affidavit. In addition, whatever ruling the court 14 may make, I ask that it be without prejudice that we 15 can obtain these documents in future hearings in 16 connection with this cause, whether it's the order 17 to show cause proposed against Mr. Minton or the -- 18 to defend ourselves on the counterclaim. 19 THE COURT: I -- I think I can do that. In 20 other words, I think I can delay -- I think I can -- 21 I can state for now, the -- the request to produce 22 is held in abeyance, and at a later time, should an 23 order to show cause be filed, if and when I have the 24 time to do that, and you're able to persuade me that 25 it has some bearing on however I draft the order to 0545
1 show cause -- I haven't thought that far down the 2 road. All I wanted to be sure of was I wouldn't 3 have to hunt Mr. Minton down in some foreign state 4 somewhere. And that's all I care about. And we've 5 got that. I don't know if I'll follow that or not. 6 I think I will. He'd come into court and say, "I 7 committed perjury in court," and expect to walk out 8 without some -- some -- something -- 9 I am not happy about it. And I'm sitting 10 here -- 11 MR. HOWIE: I realize that. 12 THE COURT: -- and I am going to be sitting 13 here for days more. And -- and the reason is -- is 14 because they have said they committed perjury. It 15 may in fact be because Mr. Dandar helped them to 16 commit perjury. That does not alter the fact that 17 he's an adult, Ms. Brooks is an adult, and frankly 18 if somebody asked me to commit perjury, I would say 19 no. So I can't -- I can leave that aside. It does 20 not help Mr. Minton nor Ms. Brooks in particular, 21 so -- 22 And I made it real clear, if I think Mr. Dandar 23 has committed perjury before this court, he'll have 24 an order to show cause too. And if anybody else 25 has, they will. This court can't have folks 0546
1 committing perjury. 2 Whether they can be prosecuted or not is 3 totally different. They just can't have it. 4 So I think I can hold this in abeyance for now. 5 And again, I'm not prohibiting the church -- if 6 you feel you have some other grounds now and you 7 want to make this known to the Second District, 8 that -- that certainly is something that you're 9 quite capable of doing. And if the Second District 10 reverses itself and says, "Well, this is a different 11 thing now --" 12 But they've said it three times, and so I 13 cannot really do anything. I don't think -- I think 14 I can. I don't want to hurt Mr. Minton's rights. 15 But I think in this hearing, that this does not 16 affect Mr. Minton. And what you're asking for 17 are -- @AUDIO these for Mr. Minton's benefit in 18 either an order to show cause or in his defense of 19 the counterclaim. And we're -- and we're not there 20 yet, okay? 21 So for now, I'm going to not require the 22 production. In essence, I'm holding that in 23 abeyance, okay? 24 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. 25 THE COURT: Okay. I think I thought that 0547
1 through a little better this morning as I was 2 looking @AUDIO those opinions and thinking of 3 what you had said yesterday. And as I said, I do 4 better in the morning. 5 Okay. So that's where we are. 6 What I think I'm going to do is, instead of 7 doing a protection order -- I think I've said this 8 verbally. And I think when I get those case 9 citations, what I'm going to suggest is I am going 10 to enter an order directing the church that in this 11 case, they are to make no further inquiry regarding 12 those funds or how they were spent. 13 Because the clear intent of this opinion goes 14 beyond how much money you get. The clear intent of 15 this is that the church should not be entitled to 16 know how much money he has left to continue to 17 litigate. I mean, that's what they've said. So 18 until they give me a different opinion, I feel 19 constrained to honor my superior court, which is the 20 Second District. I don't want to have to be hauled 21 over there to respond to them why I didn't 22 understand that when they said it three times. 23 So I think -- I think that's the way to do it. 24 And then what I think I'll put in this order is that 25 in this case -- Judge Baird can handle his own 0548
1 case -- in this case, there should be no further 2 inquiry into those matters that have clearly been 3 held to be off limits. And in any other case, if 4 you're trying to get this information, at the very 5 least you should make whoever the presiding 6 authority is aware of this case, and then the 7 presiding authority will have the right to say, 8 "Well, that has nothing to do with my case," as 9 Judge Baird did. And that's perfectly within his 10 rights. 11 So that's the case there. I've said that 12 before. He's got his case and I've got mine. But 13 at least the court should know that there it is, and 14 that their decision may have some bearing on some 15 other case, and make their decision accordingly. 16 I think that's probably a better way to do it, 17 Mr. Dandar. 18 And obviously, yourself, you'll have the 19 benefit of the same order. 20 MR. DANDAR: I have, hot off the press, the 21 three decisions. 22 THE COURT: Oh, you have the Florida Law 23 Weekly? 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Well, thank you. 0549
1 MR. DANDAR: Right from Westlaw. 2 And the other matter was the Bill Franks -- 3 THE COURT: Yes. Let me get rid of this now. 4 MR. DANDAR: I have the letter. Let me leave 5 it up here, if I can, so you can see it. 6 THE COURT: Another letter -- 7 MR. DANDAR: No. That's the one we talked 8 about yesterday. And you said you wanted to see 9 that. 10 THE COURT: I have that they gave me that. I 11 think -- 12 I have it. 13 MR. DANDAR: This is the one Mr. Lirot and I 14 did on May 20th. 15 Would you like a copy of our reply to that? 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 MR. DANDAR: This is our reply to the same 18 date, May 20th. 19 THE COURT: You all have a copy of this? 20 MR. DANDAR: I have it for them. 21 Reply to Mr. Dresher's letter of May 20th. 22 THE COURT: Okay. I did have a chance to read 23 all of these letters, and now I've had a chance to 24 read the reply. So I'm not sure what it is that I 25 should do about this. 0550
1 MR. DANDAR: Well, we're asking you to order 2 them to produce this secret agreement -- 3 THE COURT: Order who? 4 MR. DANDAR: The Church of Scientology. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: To produce this secret agreement 7 that they claim prevents Mr. Bill Franks from being 8 subpoenaed in this jurisdiction and testifying in 9 this courtroom. 10 THE COURT: And what is it you're going to use 11 him for? 12 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to use him for his 13 expertise on Scientology practices. Which is part 14 of their involuntary dismissal motion under the 15 theory that a fraud on the court has been committed. 16 THE COURT: Okay. That's the same situation 17 where you're going to use Mr. Prince and -- 18 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 19 THE COURT: -- and some -- and you listed like 20 three people. 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, Mr. Prince is the only one 22 I've been able to convince to come back into the 23 courtroom. Hana Whitfield, there's just no way she 24 wants to be involved in this. Carol Letkeman is not 25 going to be involved in it. I just keep going down 0551
1 trying to find former Scientologists. 2 But Mr. Franks is -- 3 THE COURT: Are you asking me to order him to 4 come into this hearing or are you asking me to order 5 him to be a witness for you in your trial? 6 MR. DANDAR: Both. 7 THE COURT: Well, I -- that's kind of odd, that 8 I would -- I would -- seems to me like I'd be in 9 essence stepping out and helping the plaintiff in a 10 case where they're trying to get money against the 11 defendant. I don't -- I mean, this is a horse of a 12 different color here. 13 MR. DANDAR: Well -- 14 THE COURT: I mean, this is to try to decide 15 whether or not -- well, you all know what it's 16 about. But in the lawsuit itself, I mean, if some 17 witness says they don't want to come, why would I 18 make them come? 19 MR. DANDAR: No, no. I subpoenaed the witness. 20 The witness is not saying now that he doesn't want 21 to come. He's been subpoenaed. He has business 22 down here. He comes down here quite regularly. 23 This is not an inconvenience for him, even though he 24 lives outside of, I think, Philadelphia. 25 But they raise this secret agreement, that they 0552
1 refuse to give me. I want you to order them to 2 produce it, and I want you to make a decision if in 3 fact a lawful subpoena can be avoided based upon 4 this agreement, signed by another Scientology 5 corporation in California with Mr. Franks in the 6 early '80s. 7 THE COURT: Well, that sounds like you're 8 asking me to decide in advance -- you know, courts 9 don't like to do that. First of all, I don't even 10 have a motion in front of me. It's like -- you 11 know, even though the circuit courts get dumped on 12 all the time, and we're not appellate courts, you 13 know what the appellate court would tell you? We 14 don't decide cases in controversy that aren't before 15 us. 16 MR. DANDAR: We have a motion to compel that we 17 filed May 20th, the same day we got this letter from 18 Mr. Dresher, for them to order them to compel the 19 production of this secret agreement that they have 20 with Mr. Franks. 21 THE COURT: Why do you keep calling it a secret 22 agreement? 23 MR. DANDAR: Because that's what Mr. Dresher 24 calls it. 25 He won't give it to me. He won't produce it. 0553
1 THE COURT: He calls it, in his little note, 2 "this agreement." He says he thinks it's worthless, 3 but he calls it an agreement. 4 MR. DANDAR: No. That's Mr. Franks. I'm 5 talking about Mr. Dresher, the attorney for Church 6 of Scientology International. 7 MR. WEINBERG: And he said "secret agreement"? 8 I thought he said "confidential." 9 MR. DANDAR: Well, if it's confidential, it's 10 secret. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know -- 12 THE COURT: Where does he say -- where -- tell 13 me where you're reading from. 14 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to find it. 15 THE COURT: I see, talking -- in a letter of 16 May 20th, talking about a mutual release agreement 17 dated December 5th, 1986, with William Frank, paren, 18 the agreement. The agreement, in quotes. So 19 instead of saying mutual release agreement, that 20 means he's going to refer to it from then on as the 21 agreement. 22 MR. DANDAR: You're right. It doesn't use the 23 word "secret" in the letter. I don't see it. 24 There's a prior letter to this, I believe, if I'm 25 not mistaken, but I don't have it. 0554
1 The bottom line is he's representing -- 2 Mr. Dresher's representing, in the letter of 3 May 20th, both Church of Scientology International 4 and Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization, 5 Inc. as being beneficiaries of this mutual release 6 dated December 30th, 1986. And I'm simply asking 7 the court, so that I don't get accused of breaching 8 something, even though I'm not a party to the 9 agreement, to have them produce this agreement, so I 10 don't have to rely upon counsel for the Church of 11 Scientology to tell me what the agreement says and 12 the effect it has on a lawfully served subpoena from 13 this jurisdiction. 14 THE COURT: Okay. If you're not going to -- if 15 you're going to write -- if somebody represented -- 16 I don't mean you. If somebody purporting to 17 represent the church is putting Mr. Dandar on notice 18 that if he proceeds in a legitimate suit to try to 19 bring this person, he's going to get sued, then I 20 think he has a right to see what it is that this 21 person is talking about. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Well, first of all, we don't 23 have an agreement. It's an agreement between CSI, 24 which is -- and Mr. Franks. As I understand it, one 25 of the terms of the agreement is that it be kept 0555
1 confidential. So by producing the agreement to 2 Mr. Dandar, we would be, or the church would be 3 violating the agreement. 4 Mr. Franks, his so-called witness, obviously 5 has a copy of the agreement. He can get it from 6 Mr. Franks. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Franks says he can't, he says, 8 because it's part of the agreement. 9 MR. WEINBERG: But that is nonsense. I mean, 10 Mr. Franks is the one that has the issue and the 11 problem. He entered into a -- as I understand it, a 12 settlement with the church, you know, 15 years ago. 13 And as part of that settlement agreement, he made 14 certain agreements, apparently, one of which was not 15 to be a witness against Scientology. 16 Now, you know, we're now 16 years, 15 years 17 later, you know, whatever the amount of time is, and 18 somehow, some way, he happened to be walking through 19 International Mall the other day, and Mr. Dandar 20 says he subpoenaed him in the presence of Tricia 21 Greenway; i.e., a way to get around this agreement. 22 That happened once before in this case with 23 Gerry Armstrong. Mr. Armstrong supposedly came from 24 Canada, got off an airplane here in Tampa, gets 25 subpoenaed, quote/unquote, by Mr. Dandar. 0556
1 Mr. Dandar takes his deposition. He has had an 2 agreement. Same type of agreement. That agreement 3 has now been sustained by the appellate courts in 4 California, and Mr. -- and Mr. Armstrong is, as a 5 result, a fugitive because of the violation of that 6 agreement, which was contempt. 7 I mean, you know, the parties -- 8 THE COURT: Counsel. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry -- 10 THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Armstrong, as I 11 recall, has a slew of judgments and has another 12 lawsuit. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Since that time. 14 THE COURT: Right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Armstrong was given a 16 hundred thousand dollars by Mr. Minton. 17 Mr. Armstrong sued David Miscavige and the church 18 and various other things. 19 But prior to that, long before -- 20 THE COURT: Well, that's -- I don't want the 21 record to suggest that the only reason Mr. Armstrong 22 is not (sic) a fugitive is because somehow he was 23 served with a subpoena, because that doesn't appear 24 to be the -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: No, it was the violation of the 0557
1 agreement, a similar agreement that was entered into 2 between Mr. Armstrong and the church back in the 3 '80s, that has made him a fugitive. 4 THE COURT: But he's violated the thing over 5 and over and over again. 6 MR. WEINBERG: He has. 7 THE COURT: And my guess is he's gone because 8 he doesn't want you to have his money. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he's in criminal contempt 10 for having violated the agreement. 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 MR. WEINBERG: So -- so that what the church in 13 California did when it heard that Mr. Franks was 14 going to testify -- because we were put on notice by 15 Mr. Dandar that his new expert was Mr. Franks -- the 16 California -- the Church of Scientology 17 International put Mr. Franks on notice, that, "Hey, 18 you signed this agreement back in 1985. What are 19 you doing?" Mr. Franks then sent this handwritten 20 letter back, saying, "I don't know what you're 21 talking about." Although I don't think the 22 agreement's worth anything, I don't know what you're 23 talking about." 24 And then suddenly Mr. Franks ends up in the 25 International Mall in Tampa and Mr. Dandar gives him 0558
1 a subpoena, and so therefore Mr. Dandar now says, "I 2 want to call him and I want to see this agreement." 3 Well, you know, Mr. Franks knows what the 4 agreement is. He has it. 5 THE COURT: Well, let's put it this way: If 6 he's been subpoenaed and I don't have the agreement, 7 he's been subpoenaed. He's been subpoenaed. And if 8 he doesn't come to court and I have the authority to 9 bring him here, I'll hold him in contempt for not 10 obeying the subpoena. If the man comes here, says, 11 "I can't testify. I've got an agreement," I'm going 12 to ask him to produce it. It's just that simple. 13 If he doesn't have an agreement, he's going to 14 testify. He just can't disobey a subpoena and say, 15 "Judge, you don't have any authority because there's 16 some agreement here, and you don't get to see it 17 here. By the way, your subpoena is worthless." 18 You're not going to make any subpoena worthless 19 because of some agreement. You tell the man I 20 expect him to be here. If he's not here, he'll be 21 held in contempt of court. And that's the end of 22 that. 23 MR. WEINBERG: And if all of that violates an 24 agreement -- 25 THE COURT: Then try to hold me -- try to do 0559
1 something to me. 2 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not you. Mr. Franks 3 will have to answer to it, and anybody that's 4 assisted him. 5 THE COURT: That's right. 6 MR. WEINBERG: And I'm not talking about you, 7 your Honor. But if what happened is what I think 8 happened, and this was an effort to get around the 9 agreement by having him come to the International 10 Mall and get served, well, that would not be a valid 11 exercise of Mr. Dandar's rights in this case. That 12 would just be an exercise to circumvent the 13 agreement. 14 THE COURT: I wouldn't begin -- as I say, 15 courts don't like to rule on things that they don't 16 have to. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 18 THE COURT: The motion to compel production of 19 documents, as far as I'm concerned -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: We don't have that document. 21 That's the Church of Scientology International. 22 MR. DANDAR: Well, I mean, that's just a shell 23 game; they don't have the document. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me -- 25 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Dresher saying they are 0560
1 beneficiaries of this agreement -- they certainly 2 can call up Mr. Dresher and tell the facts to the 3 court right now. 4 THE COURT: I don't see how Mr. Dresher can say 5 he represents the defendant in my case. That's what 6 he said; he's a lawyer in this case. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think he said that. 8 Mr. Dandar said that. 9 THE COURT: Well, I thought he did, so let me 10 look. 11 "I write on behalf of my client, Church of 12 Scientology International, SCI. Both SCI and Church 13 of Scientology Flag Service Organization are 14 beneficiaries of the mutual release agreement." 15 So he says he represents only his client, CSI, 16 but then he says conveniently that Flag Service 17 Organization are beneficiaries. In my mind, he 18 represents you. 19 MR. WEINBERG: That's because, like any 20 agreement, it's a broad agreement -- 21 THE COURT: Of course. 22 MR. WEINBERG: -- that protects -- 23 THE COURT: I'm just telling you that I'm 24 compelling him to respond to his deposition or his 25 subpoena. I suppose that, under any agreement, that 0561
1 anybody could breach that if they're compelled by a 2 court to testify. That may or may not save them 3 from the agreement. I don't know. 4 You can tell him, as far as I'm concerned, I 5 have no agreement. Nobody's provided me with an 6 agreement. I expect him to honor the subpoena. 7 MR. DANDAR: I will. 8 THE COURT: And therefore, I'm going to deny 9 your motion to compel. Because they don't want to 10 provide it to me, then I'm going to make him 11 testify. And that may be his out under the 12 agreement. If you want to provide it to me, I'll 13 look at it. 14 MR. WEINBERG: We probably will. I just didn't 15 have it. And I'll talk to CSI. 16 THE COURT: But I don't want to get involved 17 necessarily in compelling documents I don't have to 18 compel. I don't have a document. He's got a 19 subpoena. You tell him to get over here and that I 20 expect him to testify. And I will demand it. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could we at least 22 have a proffer from Mr. Dandar as to what Mr. Franks 23 is going to testify about, since he left the church 24 in the early 1980s, at this hearing? Which he's 25 coming for this hearing. What in the world is he 0562
1 going to say that is -- that is probative or 2 relevant to this hearing? Which is what he's being 3 subpoenaed to come here for. 4 THE COURT: I think he already has. 5 MR. DANDAR: I'm not here to give a proffer 6 today, Judge. I don't think that would be -- I'm 7 not prepared to give a proffer and I don't think it 8 would be appropriate. I mean, this motion was filed 9 against me in front of Judge Baird without me 10 knowing what in the world they were even talking 11 about. I don't have a proffer, so I'm not prepared 12 to give a proffer here. 13 THE COURT: I'm not prepared to make you 14 proffer something to spare a witness. The witness 15 has been served. I expect him to honor the 16 subpoena. That's all there is to it. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 18 THE COURT: You all can deal with it later. If 19 this man is writing letters, doesn't even represent 20 your church, you ought not worry about it. Let him 21 come in here and tell what it is he knows and we'll 22 see what he's got that's relevant. 23 All right. So on these letters, I guess what 24 I'm saying is, as far as I know, there's a valid 25 subpoena out there, and I guess we'll deal with it 0563
1 when he says he's not testifying, and then we'll 2 deal with it. 3 And you might tell him from me, if he says, 4 "I'm not testifying because I have an agreement," 5 I'm going to have to say, "Well, let me see it." 6 And if he says, "Well, I don't have it," well, I 7 can't -- you know, it just doesn't do anything for 8 me. 9 And I sure am not going to have a Mr. Dresher, 10 who's not a lawyer in my case in front of me, 11 explaining on a piece of paper, that he's writing to 12 somebody else, anything. That ain't gonna get it. 13 So if you all going to make some argument, you 14 get the agreement; you make the argument. You're 15 the lawyers that are in front of me. 16 MR. WEINBERG: No, we will. I -- 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. WEINBERG: This has just been sort of laid 19 on us at the last minute. 20 Okay. I think we're ready. 21 MR. FUGATE: May it please the court. 22 THE COURT: Yes. Good morning. 23 Just about time for a break. 24 I'll tell you the same thing I told Ms. Brooks. 25 Sometimes we get involved in this legal stuff. 0564
1 You're not required to sit there. In other words, 2 if we're talking legal stuff, you may get up and 3 leave the courtroom, use the restroom, whatever you 4 want to do. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 THE COURT: I should have told you that. I 7 forgot. It usually happens every morning, we get 8 involved in something. So you're not required to 9 sit there. 10 _______________________________________ 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Good morning, Mr. Minton. 13 A Good morning. 14 Q I'm going to now, at this point in history, try to 15 ask you to address your attention to Defendant's Exhibit 16 Number 97, which are the phone records that have been 17 patiently waiting beside you for a couple days. 18 A Right. 19 Q And I think I asked you earlier if you had had an 20 opportunity to look through those and see if you can 21 identify any -- if you can identify that those phone records 22 indicate calls to numbers that you understand to be either 23 Mr. Dandar's cell phone number or his office number. 24 A Yes, I did notice that. 25 Q All right. And did you notice that they're 0565
1 tabbed? And I certainly didn't ask you to count them, but 2 you do see in those records -- 3 MR. FUGATE: And they are in evidence, I do 4 believe, Judge. 5 THE COURT: I think they are. 6 Madam Clerk, are they in evidence, 97? 7 THE WITNESS: No, Judge. 8 THE COURT: She said no, but I thought you 9 moved them in yesterday. 10 MR. FUGATE: I would move them in at this time, 11 because I think Mr. Dandar indicated they're not -- 12 They're actually your records. 13 THE COURT: He had no objection. 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. No objection. 15 THE COURT: So Madam Clerk, they're moved into 16 evidence. 17 THE CLERK: Yes, ma'am. 18 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 97 received in evidence.) 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Did you find, as you reviewed the records -- 21 And then just to set the record, I should go 22 back -- 23 Those are the Nextel phone service records for the 24 phones that you had arranged to be utilized by the LMT 25 employees, is that correct? 0566
1 A That's correct, including myself. 2 Q And did you notice in those records phone toll 3 calls or indications of calls to both Mr. Dandar's cell 4 phone number and to his office number? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q Now, sir, what period of time did the records 7 cover? I think it indicated from '99 to the close of LMT? 8 A Yes. 9 THE COURT: What date in '99? 10 MR. FUGATE: I believe it is -- 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Do you have them there in the face page? 13 A Yes. 14 Well, this one is January 3rd, 2000. The first 15 one -- the one that was on the top. But I -- 16 Wait a minute. Maybe one of the ones that's in 17 here -- that was what was attached to this subpoena thing, I 18 think. This one. 19 Q I think that is correct. Start of service -- 20 A Okay. 21 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to object. I just need 22 something clarified. 23 These are records from the LMT, which I looked 24 at over the weekend, and they are -- although the 25 first couple months has my name on it because they 0567
1 had no credit, I want to make sure that when 2 Mr. Minton's testifying, he's testifying about his 3 phone, not Jesse Prince's phone or someone else's 4 phone at LMT. 5 THE COURT: I think that's fair. 6 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think my question was, 7 does it indicate calls to Mr. Dandar's cell phone or 8 to his office phone by the phones utilized? Because 9 obviously, we have no idea who was utilizing what 10 phones at a particular time. And I'm just asking 11 him if he -- 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q Unless you know -- 14 Have you looked to see if your phone -- or did you 15 use more than one phone? 16 A Well, I mean, you know, I'd be in Stacy's office, 17 I'd use her phone, or Jesse would be in her office using her 18 phone. You know, I didn't use mine a whole lot. You know, 19 I just used the office phone generally. 20 Q Well, let me ask you this. If those records 21 that -- I -- I know you haven't counted them, but if I were 22 to represent to you that I have noted each one that I 23 understood to be Mr. Dandar's cell or his office number, 24 there are 496 calls represented in those records, would you 25 agree that that seems to be accurate? 0568
1 A Well, there's an awful lot of blue tabs on here. 2 I didn't count them either. But -- 3 Q And as you sit here today -- 4 A -- that would be -- 5 Q -- you have no way of knowing, I would assume, 6 that -- how many of those calls you made or how many that 7 Stacy Brooks may have made, or Jesse Prince, is that 8 correct? 9 A Not with any high degree of certainty. 10 MR. FUGATE: And Judge, I don't offer it for 11 that reason. I just offer it for the volume of 12 calls, over 2000 to 2001, between the LMT, 13 Mr. Minton and others to Mr. Dandar's office. Just 14 the volume. 15 MR. DANDAR: And I move to have this -- this is 16 what we did yesterday. I move to have those records 17 excluded from the evidence. I believe that's why it 18 was not on the clerk's sheet, because the witness 19 cannot identify anything with certainty as to who's 20 making the phone calls to my cell phone or my 21 office. And it has nothing to do with his 22 testimony. 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think this would be -- 24 I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. 25 THE COURT: What was the request -- yesterday 0569
1 you introduced something where Mr. Dandar was 2 required to produce something. What number was 3 that? 4 MR. FUGATE: That was -- look at the clerk's 5 list. That was phone records that he produced. 6 MR. WEINBERG: That was a request to produce. 7 THE COURT: Right. 8 MR. WEINBERG: And Mr. Dandar -- while he gets 9 it, Mr. Dandar's responded that he had made, from 10 his phones -- he didn't identify which phones -- to 11 Mr. Minton, and he listed 79 calls, although he said 12 he didn't have records for 1998. That's what that 13 is. 14 THE COURT: Those were calls that he made. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 16 THE COURT: From his phone to Mr. Minton. 17 MR. WEINBERG: To Mr. Minton. That's what he 18 said. That's what the request to produce says. 19 THE COURT: But these records are records of 20 calls from -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: The LMT to Mr. Dandar, okay? 22 And our position is that if you accept my 23 number as correct, essentially 500 calls in a 24 year-and-a-half period, that certainly demonstrates 25 a substantial relationship, involvement, 0570
1 communication, participation between LMT as 2 Mr. Minton, and we've suggested, and Mr. Dandar. 3 And that is a very substantial relationship. That's 4 an awful lot of calls. And that's what it shows. 5 And the people at the LMT that had phones were 6 Jesse Prince, Stacy Brooks, Bob Minton and others. 7 THE COURT: And others. And who were the 8 others? I know you may have said yesterday, but -- 9 THE WITNESS: Well, Mark Bunker; Jeff Jacobsen, 10 who did the library work. Bunker, of course, did 11 the video work. At various times, other people. 12 Like Teresa Summers had a phone; Karen Case at one 13 time had a phone. Let's see here. 14 There's actually -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: Jeff Jacobsen, I think, had a 16 phone at one point. 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mentioned him. 18 And Bob Peterson had a phone. Tory Bezazian 19 had a phone. 20 THE COURT: There's a new name. Bezazian? 21 THE WITNESS: Actually, she's changed her name 22 now. It's Christman. Tory Christman. 23 MR. FUGATE: Can you spell both last names for 24 the court reporter? 25 THE WITNESS: B-e-z-a-z-i-a-n and Christman, 0571
1 "Christ" and "man." 2 MR. DANDAR: Judge, still object. Because the 3 foundation's not been laid. 4 THE COURT: I think that's right. I don't 5 think he can get them in. I do think you can get 6 them in by calling, unfortunately -- or fortunately. 7 I don't know which the case may be -- I think it's a 8 simple matter of just bringing in the custodian and 9 say, "This is the records custodian. These are the 10 records." 11 So Mr. Dandar -- I mean, I think they get in by 12 a custodian of the records saying, "These are the 13 custodians (sic), and from this -- to this number, 14 this is how many calls there are." 15 MR. DANDAR: We don't argue about the calls. 16 What we're arguing about is they're trying to imply 17 to the court that they're calls to Mr. Minton and 18 Stacy Brooks, and that cannot be established. 19 MR. WEINBERG: That wasn't my argument. 20 THE COURT: That cannot be established. 21 MR. WEINBERG: My argument is, we have stated 22 and we'll state it again, that the LMT was part of 23 this enterprise, basically, that Mr. Minton set up, 24 that was utilized in some substantial part to work 25 with the wrongful death case and Mr. Dandar. And 0572
1 there's 496 calls in a relatively short period of 2 time between the LMT and Mr. Dandar. 3 MR. DANDAR: And the problem with -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Just -- excuse me -- just on 5 these Nextel phones. This is just the Nextel 6 phones. It's not all the other phones. It's just 7 the Nextel phones. 8 And that shows an incredible relationship. I 9 mean, it -- 10 And that's the point. And I intend to ask 11 Mr. Dandar about all those calls. 12 THE COURT: Yeah. I will allow the records to 13 come in only because I think the custodian can come 14 in and get the records in. 15 As to what those records show, I think that's a 16 question. If they show anything. And I think that 17 what it shows is there were 496 phone calls made. 18 And he can argue what they show and you can argue, 19 and he can ask you. But I think they come in. 20 MR. FUGATE: You're the finder of fact here, 21 Judge, and you've got to assign whatever weight -- 22 THE COURT: Yeah. Whatever weight. 23 And I'm letting them in through this witness. 24 First of all, he hasn't even testified there 25 were 496. This is rather bizarre, the lawyers 0573
1 giving the testimony. 2 MR. DANDAR: I object to that too. 3 THE COURT: Yeah. You should object to that. 4 But I presume Mr. Minton can count, and that if 5 he were to sit here, he would count. So it may 6 not -- you -- you can count things. If they're not 7 496, then you can tell us if that's incorrect. 8 MR. DANDAR: But what -- 9 THE COURT: We can't have Mr. Fugate provide 10 any testimony from out there. 11 MR. DANDAR: But my objection is based on that 12 Mr. Prince is sitting inside the offices of LMT. 13 And Mr. Prince, at this time, was my -- working for 14 me quite a bit. And he has a cell phone. And 15 that's a secure line, supposedly, rather than a 16 landline. And so all these calls -- I don't know -- 17 could be to Mr. Prince. They could be -- you know, 18 who knows? 19 THE COURT: And if they are and Mr. Prince is 20 your consultant -- frankly, I think Ms. Brooks was 21 your consultant as well. So I mean, those calls -- 22 you know, as I said, everybody can argue whatever 23 they want to argue about them. But I don't think it 24 makes much sense to make us bring the custodian of 25 the records in, do you? 0574
1 MR. DANDAR: No. That's not what I'm saying. 2 You're right. 3 THE COURT: So I'm going to let them in. But 4 I'm not saying they're coming in for the relevancy 5 that the church says they are; I'm not saying they 6 aren't. I'm just letting them in without a 7 custodian and without, really, any testimony as to 8 how many there are. 9 Somebody will count them. 10 I hope I don't have to count them. 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, maybe what I'll do is ask 12 Mr. Minton, in all his free time here to, today 13 to -- 14 THE COURT: When he has some free time, he can 15 count them. 16 MR. FUGATE: -- go through and count them. 17 Judge, if I may ask some more questions -- 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 MR. FUGATE: Just to go to the issue of the 20 weight for your Honor. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q I think we got off track way back on Friday when 23 we were talking about these, so I'll be a little 24 repetitious. 25 But let me ask you this. During the period of 0575
1 time from when you first began providing checks to the 2 estate -- and we've already established the letters back and 3 forth, and the checks -- during that period of time until 4 March of 2002, can you tell the court, if you can estimate, 5 how often you were in telephone contact with Mr. Dandar; 6 Mr. Ken Dandar, for the record? 7 A Yes. 8 THE COURT: What were the dates you gave again, 9 Mr. Fugate? 10 MR. FUGATE: It's October of 1997, I believe, 11 to -- 12 THE COURT: To March of 2002. 13 MR. FUGATE: -- March of 2002. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 A Well, I think I can -- you know, I can only 16 characterize it as regular as opposed to frequent. I mean, 17 you know, we didn't talk every day. But regularly, we 18 talked. And I just -- you know, I can't give you a better 19 estimate than that. It was -- 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q I understand. 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Well, my next question would be, sir, can you tell 24 us, the court, what you talked about, in general? In other 25 words, the weather, sports, the case -- 0576
1 A Well, either money or the case or both. I mean, 2 sometimes we talked about pleasantries, but you know, that 3 was in conjunction with the other parts of the conversation. 4 Q And forgetting how many blue tabs there are 5 there -- those indicate the Nextel records, I think 6 Mr. Dandar had produced -- 7 MR. FUGATE: And it's Exhibit 105, Judge. I 8 looked it up while we were talking. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q He produced a log of the calls that he identifies 11 that he made from his office to you. And I think there were 12 79 calls on there, which did not include 1998, apparently. 13 Were there more calls from other phone numbers 14 that you can identify; in other words, that you would have 15 used to be calling Mr. Dandar? 16 A Yes. There would be. 17 Q And can you just describe what phones those would 18 be, to the best of your recollection? 19 A Okay. The -- in addition to cell phones, it would 20 be my house phone in New Hampshire on a couple of different 21 lines; a house phone in Boston; a New Hampshire cell phone; 22 there was a time during this time period where there was a 23 Massachusetts cell phone. Sometimes, when I traveled -- 24 Q Hotel or something of that nature? 25 A Yeah. Hotels. Sometimes there were phone calls 0577
1 made on calling cards or -- you know, the kind you buy at a 2 7-11 or something. 3 Q Now, you've testified, I think, yesterday and 4 Friday, about phone calls made to and from your home in New 5 Hampshire in March. So throughout the period of time, you 6 would -- you would have been in phone contact with 7 Mr. Dandar, correct? 8 A Well, you know, during -- during the period from 9 August through December -- sorry -- August, 2001 through 10 December, 2001, there wasn't a lot of contact. It was -- it 11 reduced substantially after Mr. Merrett sent him this letter 12 or e-mail saying that I wouldn't be funding the case, until 13 December, when Mr. Dandar increased the communication 14 because of the urgent need for funding. 15 Q And I'll get back to that. But generically, I'm 16 trying to categorize the types of contact that you 17 maintained with Mr. -- Mr. Dandar. 18 So we have telephone -- 19 MR. FUGATE: And I know this is slightly 20 repetitious, Judge. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q But did you also communicate via computer, e-mail? 23 A Yes, we did. 24 Q And you also communicated face-to-face, is that 25 correct? 0578
1 A That's correct. 2 Q And other -- you had not known Mr. Dandar prior to 3 providing the first check, other than the meeting you said 4 you had in the hotel room with Mr. Wollersheim -- 5 A That's correct. 6 Q -- and Dr. Dandar, correct? 7 A That's correct. I never met him previously. 8 Q And other than pleasantries related to the case or 9 to money, was the contact about the case? 10 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 11 I mean, the pleasantries -- I didn't want you to 12 mischaracterize it. The pleasantries may or may not have 13 anything to do with the case, and generally didn't. You 14 know, just two guys talking. 15 Q Now, back to your second affidavit, paragraph 16 13 -- 17 THE COURT: Let me find that now. 18 Okay. I've got it. Paragraph 13. 19 THE WITNESS: Can I put away the phone record 20 stuff for right now? 21 THE COURT: Are these extra copies? 22 MR. FUGATE: That's the witness copy, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: And what happened was -- 25 THE COURT: I don't want them, honestly. 0579
1 MR. FUGATE: There's an exhibit -- 2 THE COURT: One thing I'm not going to go home 3 and do is go through all those phone records. 4 MR. FUGATE: It's not fun. 5 MR. WEINBERG: When you say a witness copy, 6 that's not the original; that's not the marked copy. 7 MR. FUGATE: No. The clerk has the copy that's 8 introduced into evidence, Judge. And actually, I 9 had those tabbed green and those are tabbed blue so 10 I can tell -- 11 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar had a set tabbed 12 something else. 13 MR. FUGATE: Tabbed red. 14 THE COURT: Does anybody need these? 15 Mr. Minton probably doesn't want them. I don't 16 want them. 17 MR. WEINBERG: It might be useful, for whatever 18 reason, to keep them in the courtroom. 19 THE COURT: Could the witness, then -- since 20 he's part of this litigation I'll give them to 21 Mr. Howie for whatever use he might have for them 22 when this is over. 23 MR. WEINBERG: That would be a good idea. 24 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, we'll let you have those 25 for -- 0580
1 MR. FUGATE: He could be counting while we're 2 sitting here, Judge. 3 THE COURT: Well, he needs to be concentrating 4 on his client here, so I'm not going to make him do 5 that. 6 I see Ms. Brooks back there. Maybe she could 7 count for us. 8 I'm teasing. 9 We have Mr. Moxon. He's just sitting. 10 MR. FUGATE: On paragraph 13, do you have the 11 second amended -- or second affidavit, your Honor? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Yes, I do. 14 THE WITNESS: Oh. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q And do you, Mr. Minton? 17 A Oh, I'm sorry. 18 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I again object to having 19 the witness read his affidavit paragraph and then 20 asking questions about it. He's refreshing his 21 memory. Let's test his memory before he reads it. 22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, he's filed it; he's sworn 23 to it. I just want to direct him to areas that I 24 want to ask questions about. 25 THE COURT: I let Ms. Brooks use her affidavit. 0581
1 It's their affidavit. They filed it. Part of me 2 says you're right, but I'm going to allow him to 3 look at it. 4 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to try and do a 5 little more artful job of questioning, Judge, and 6 maybe that'll eliminate -- 7 THE COURT: You can certainly test his 8 recollection, Counselor, on cross examination, and 9 you can tell him to put the affidavit down if you 10 like. But I think that he would have a right, in 11 his questioning, to ask him to look at his 12 affidavit. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Did you, sir, have conversations with Mr. Dandar 15 about the need -- or about the media and what sort of media 16 you and Mr. Dandar felt would be helpful in this case? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And can you tell the court generally what you 19 recall about those? If you can date or place any of them, I 20 would appreciate it. 21 A Well, let me be general first. 22 Basically, any media about Scientology -- 23 obviously negative media about Scientology was interesting 24 to have done, you know what I mean? That was the thrust of 25 any media attempts. 0582
1 Q And did you -- after the first check was provided 2 in October of '97, did you, Mr. Minton, regularly thereafter 3 attempt to be in front of the media, such as radio programs, 4 television programs, et cetera? 5 A Radio, newspaper, television, documentary. But 6 that was on television too. 7 Q And did you discuss with Mr. Dandar when you were 8 going to appear or going to be interviewed? 9 A It depended on what it was. I mean, not 10 everything. You know, a radio show, I wouldn't necessarily 11 talk to him about. But TV shows, for sure. Especially if 12 they were consequential in terms of, you know, time and 13 audience, and specifically if you could get the show in any 14 way around to this case. 15 Q And this case again being the wrongful death case? 16 A The wrongful death case. 17 Q Would you have conversations with Mr. Dandar after 18 you had completed a piece, whether it was a television, a 19 newspaper interview, radio program -- 20 A Generally yes. But again, not just for something 21 like a radio program. You know, with a -- a newspaper 22 article that was going to be coming out, you know, in a few 23 days or, you know, before -- before and during a television 24 shoot relative to, you know, a 20- or 30-minute piece, yeah. 25 I mean, I would talk to him about those kind of things; you 0583
1 know, any kind of major, major media as opposed to, you 2 know, a radio show in the midwest or something. 3 Q And did you discuss with him -- we've introduced 4 several transcripts, I think, and postings about the fact 5 that you were funding the case and that you were 6 obviously -- personally, yourself, were attacking 7 Scientology. Did you have discussions with him about those 8 sorts of communications? 9 MR. DANDAR: Leading. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Let's flip right to this issue, then. 13 Did you, sir, as you indicate here, organize 14 pickets in Clearwater? 15 A Yes, I did. 16 Q And can you tell us if you had any conversations 17 with Mr. Dandar about the organization of pickets in 18 Clearwater? 19 A Yes. Yes, I did. 20 Q And can you tell us, sir -- if you recall any 21 particular instances, can you tell the court about 22 conversations about organizing pickets in Clearwater? 23 A Well, the one -- the one that I can specifically 24 remember best is right after -- I think it was in -- right 25 in January, 2000, when David Miscavige was added as a 0584
1 defendant. I remember I had the front -- I had the St. Pete 2 Times and several other of us from the LMT who, you know, 3 had copies of the front page -- well, the whole front 4 section of the St. Pete Times, because it was a front-page 5 story. And we were picketing in front of the Scientology 6 headquarters. And Mr. Dandar had said, you know, "Take that 7 thing and shove it right up their ass." 8 Q Meaning the article? 9 A Article. 10 Q And did the article -- as you sit here today, do 11 you remember if it had photographs of Mr. Miscavige on it? 12 A I believe it did. It was an extensive article. 13 Q And when you say picketing in front of 14 Scientology, do you recall where you picketed? 15 A That was at the Clearwater Bank Building. 16 Q And do you know that to be a Scientology -- a Flag 17 Service office building? 18 A Yes. That's -- that's -- it's the building where 19 all the personnel who are in Clearwater come and eat three 20 times a day. And there are other -- there are offices in 21 there, too, where people work. 22 Q So the staff -- that would be, to your knowledge, 23 where the staff dining room was? 24 A That's correct, yes. 25 Q And when you picketed, are you talking about for 0585
1 five minutes or -- with these newspaper articles, or are you 2 talking about extended pickets -- picketing? 3 A Well, I think that -- I think that particular one, 4 you know, basically covered the -- I believe it was the 5 lunch hour. And by hour, it's more than an hour, because it 6 starts at, like, 11:30 and ends at, like, 1:30. But you 7 know, the lunch period where all the staff come to the -- 8 the building there. 9 Q I think -- and I'll -- for the court's benefit, by 10 that time in 2000 -- and if I recall, that was somewhere in 11 December of 2000. Do you recall that? 12 A December of 2000? 13 THE COURT: I thought he said January. 14 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. January. 15 A Earlier in the year. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Let's trust your recollection and not mine. 18 A Okay. 19 Q How about that? 20 Do you recall if, at that point in time, you had 21 moved in next door to the Clearwater Bank Building? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And approximately how many feet or yards were you 24 from the dining room entrance to the entrance of the Lisa 25 McPherson Trust building? 0586
1 A I know a lot of people have measured this, but I 2 don't know. 150 feet? 3 Q And during that period of time prior to this 4 picket that you've just been describing, had you had an 5 opportunity to observe the lunch hours, dinner hours, to 6 determine how many busloads of staff would come and go? 7 A Yes. You know, busloads and people walking over 8 from the Ft. Harrison or walking over from the -- I think 9 it's called the Coachman Building, which is sort of opposite 10 the bank building on -- on Cleveland Street. 11 Q Do you recall any further conversation with 12 Mr. Dandar, other than what you've just described, about 13 that particular picket and what to do with the newspaper 14 articles? 15 A Not about that -- that particular one. 16 Q Now -- 17 A You know -- 18 Q I'm sorry. 19 A -- there were -- you know, the annual pickets -- 20 you know, those, Mr. Dandar -- you know, there was talk with 21 Mr. Dandar about those every year; if nothing else, the 22 coordination of the dates, to time it with the family to 23 come down here. 24 THE COURT: Are these the pickets that I've 25 also heard referred to as vigils? 0587
1 THE WITNESS: Well, the vigils would have 2 occurred on one night of the picket -- 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: -- weekend. 5 THE COURT: So when you say the annual picket, 6 this is a picket that was in conjunction with, also, 7 a vigil. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: There would be a vigil every -- 11 every -- once -- once during that weekend or time 12 period where the picketing was going on. 13 THE COURT: But also during that weekend, there 14 would be an organized -- well, disorganized -- but a 15 picket, nonetheless. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. Throughout -- more or less 17 throughout the day on all the days of the weekend. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Well, I think we have it in the record. 21 Can you tell us what -- when you say -- the court 22 just asked you about the vigil. Can you tell us, in 23 organizing the picketing, what you meant when you said a 24 moment ago that there would be discussions about organizing 25 the -- the events around the anniversary, I think you said? 0588
1 A I didn't really follow that last question. 2 Q Wasn't very well phrased. 3 THE COURT: Why don't you just ask him one? 4 Just ask him a question. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Did you have any discussions -- 7 Let's go back to the -- to 1998 for starters. Do 8 you remember participating in pickets in 1998, in December? 9 A The first -- I think there was one in March of 10 '98, which -- and then December as well. Yes, I do remember 11 December. 12 (Defendant's Exhibits Number 114-A, B, C marked for 13 identification.) 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q And do -- I'm going to show you -- 16 MR. FUGATE: If I may approach, your Honor -- 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q -- some photographs. These will be Defendant's 20 Exhibit 114-A, B, C and et cetera. 21 THE COURT: It's just about time for us to take 22 a break, so we'll do that shortly. Let's go ahead 23 and get this done, and then we'll -- 24 MR. DANDAR: There's a D as well? 25 THE COURT: Seems like there are four of them 0589
1 here. 2 MR. FUGATE: Should be -- well, I think there 3 should be three. I think that may be the photograph 4 in front of the courthouse. 5 THE COURT: It's a different one from the one I 6 have. 7 MR. FUGATE: I know. I just was going to show 8 the three that's -- 9 THE COURT: Well, make sure it's not in the 10 record, then, if you're saying A, B and C -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Let me check that now, Judge. I'm 12 sorry. 13 THE COURT: And if it's got a D, I guess, take 14 it out. And if you're not going to use it, I'm 15 going to throw it away. 16 MR. FUGATE: I may come back to it, Judge. 17 THE COURT: I'll give it to you. And if you 18 do, you can give it back to me. 19 MR. FUGATE: All right. Thank you. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Did you have a chance to look at Exhibit 114-A, B 22 and C? 23 A Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: I'll also take this other one 25 out. 0590
1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Thanks. 4 A Yes, I have. 5 Q And do you recognize the folks depicted in each of 6 the photographs, starting first with 114-A? 7 A Yes. That's Gerry Armstrong. 8 Q All right. 114-B? 9 A Jesse Prince and other people. But you know, 10 Jesse Prince. 11 Q 114-C? 12 A Stacy Brooks. 13 MR. FUGATE: I would move these -- 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q And do you remember this to be the December 16 pickets of 1998? 17 A I believe it was. And I base that on the -- the 18 building in C. You know, the -- the sort of facade of the 19 new building that Scientology has built in downtown 20 Clearwater. 21 Q Across the street from the Ft. Harrison? 22 A Yeah. Across the street from the Ft. Harrison. 23 There was a picture there -- it's a large sort of canvas 24 picture that they put up after -- you know, when they 25 announced the building plans for that. And I seem to 0591
1 remember that being at the end of '98. 2 MR. FUGATE: And I would move 114-A, B and C 3 in, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Any objection? 5 MR. DANDAR: Relevance. 6 THE COURT: I'll let it in. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q You identified 114-A as Gerry Armstrong. I 9 think -- 10 THE COURT: He's done that already. I mean -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Well -- 12 THE COURT: I mean, I recognize these people by 13 now. 14 MR. FUGATE: Well, except for Mr. Armstrong. I 15 don't know if you'd ever seen a picture of him. 16 THE COURT: Well, maybe I haven't. But I 17 certainly know Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q In 1998 -- in December of 1988 -- 20 A '98. 21 Q You see the pictures that Mr. Prince and 22 Ms. Brooks are wearing in these photographs? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you recall whose idea it was to put these 25 T-shirts on folks to take part in the picket? 0592
1 A You know, I'm not certain, but I believe that 2 Frank Oliver is the person who had these things -- these 3 T-shirts printed up. 4 Q And Frank Oliver, I think, is someone who's on the 5 advisory committee of the LMT? 6 A Well, he wasn't at that time. But yeah, later, 7 the LMT -- 8 Q And was there -- 9 A -- he -- 10 Q -- a purpose in everybody wearing "Scientology 11 Kills" T-shirts and taking part in the picket? 12 A Yes. I mean -- 13 Q And that was what, sir? 14 A It was principally to flagrantly go over 15 Scientology about the death of Lisa McPherson. 16 Q And how did Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince get here 17 to Clearwater for this picket, if you know, sir? 18 A Well, I believe Stacy Brooks would have probably, 19 you know, booked their flights on a credit card of mine. 20 Q And is this a time in the picketing arena where 21 you were funding their appearances here in Clearwater? Or 22 there in Clearwater, I should say. December of 1998? 23 A Yes. Yes. This -- this sign in number C, you 24 know, that Stacy Brooks is carrying, "Lisa's Blood on 25 Scientology's Hands," with these two big handprints on it, 0593
1 that was a sign that, you know, I did. And I did a lot of 2 them, you know, so that, you know, just to continue to push 3 this in the public's and Scientology's face about what had 4 happened with Lisa McPherson. 5 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 115 marked for identification.) 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Now, the photograph that was attached there, which 8 the judge gave back to me -- 9 Let me just ask you -- do you recall -- 10 MR. FUGATE: And that would be 115, Judge, as 11 long as we're there. 12 And I'll just break with this, Judge. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Do you recall where this photograph was taken, and 16 what was going on when this photograph was taken, 115? 17 MR. DANDAR: Can I see it? 18 MR. FUGATE: Sure. I'm sorry. I thought I 19 gave it to you. 20 MR. DANDAR: That's 114-D, no? 21 MR. FUGATE: No. We're now making it 115. 22 MR. DANDAR: Oh, sorry. 23 A This was in front of the Pinellas County Criminal 24 Complex the day that Scientology was indicted, I believe, in 25 the criminal case. Jesse Prince, Stacy and myself -- we had 0594
1 come down here earlier than the -- I don't remember the date 2 that this actually happened. I know it's in November, '98. 3 But we came down, it seems to me, like a week or two 4 earlier, in order -- this was at Mr. Dandar's suggestion -- 5 in order to be there when this event happened, you know, 6 when this indictment was handed down. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q And the picket signs that are there depicted in 9 the photo -- 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, first of all, let me offer 11 it in, Judge. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q You were present. You see yourself in the 14 photograph? 15 A Yes. I was definitely there. 16 THE COURT: Any objection? 17 MR. DANDAR: Relevance. 18 THE COURT: I can't believe you mean that. You 19 keep saying relevance. They're trying to show that, 20 wrapped up in your lawsuit, is LMT and all the folks 21 in it. 22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, this is -- 23 THE COURT: And that it's all part and parcel 24 of a facade or an illegal purpose to get 25 Scientology. That's what they're trying -- if you 0595
1 don't know that yet, that that's what they're trying 2 to establish, then you need to get help over there. 3 MR. DANDAR: This is a criminal-case picture. 4 This has nothing to do with the estate, has nothing 5 to do -- 6 THE COURT: If you told them to be here, to 7 carry signs that talked about Lisa's blood on 8 Scientology's hands, and Scientology, Hubbard's 9 Third Reich, then what they're going to suggest, is 10 they were doing that to inflame the jury and 11 increase the value of the lawsuit. That's what 12 they're saying. That's their allegation. 13 Therefore, it's relevant. I mean, I'm not making 14 their argument for them, but I suspect that's what 15 it's coming in for. 16 MR. FUGATE: That's what we've alleged in 17 the -- 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. DANDAR: How can it be relevant in 1998, 20 where there's not even a trial set, where the jury's 21 in Tampa, Hillsborough County? 22 THE COURT: That's -- that's -- 23 MR. DANDAR: I mean, how can any of that be 24 relevant? 25 THE COURT: That's for you to argue to me. But 0596
1 I mean, certainly it is relevant to what they're 2 trying to establish. 3 So overruled. 4 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 115 received in evidence.) 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Quickly, before the break, Mr. Minton, can you 7 identify the other three people depicted in the photograph? 8 THE COURT: Well, Lord have mercy, you've got 9 them typed under there, for goodness sake's, Lee. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, for the record -- 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Well, actually, we know Mr. Prince; we know Stacy 13 Brooks. 14 Who's the fellow in the middle? 15 A I'll cover up the bottom part. 16 That's Thom Haverty. 17 Q And who was Thom Haverty in 1998, in November, to 18 your knowledge? 19 A He was -- he was working with Mr. Dandar. I 20 believe he was, among other things, in charge of getting 21 medical experts. He has a company called Medical Cost 22 Management. And he was working closely with Mr. Dandar, not 23 only on that, but security matters at that time. 24 Q And were there any interviews given with the press 25 at or about the time these photographs were taken, by you or 0597
1 by Mr. Dandar? 2 A Yes. I mean, I did a fairly extensive one out 3 there in front of the courthouse with, you know, the whole 4 set-up of microphones and TV cameras. And Mr. Dandar also 5 did some as well. 6 Q Okay. And were these picket signs -- I think 7 you've already identified the Lisa's Blood on Scientology's 8 Hands was prepared by you. What about the other two? 9 A Yes. Both of those were prepared by me. 10 Q How about Scientology, Hubbard's Third Reich? 11 A Well, that was -- that was prepared by me, yeah. 12 Q Okay. 13 A You know, in fairness to Mr. Dandar here, there 14 were two signs like that: Scientology, Hubbard's Third 15 Reich -- one of them had a swastika on it. He didn't like 16 the swastika one. 17 Q So he asked you not to bring that to the 18 arraignment or -- 19 A He just said, generally, don't use that. 20 Q The two emblems, do you know what they are on that 21 Third Reich? 22 A Yes. One is the Standard Tech, Scientology -- 23 came right out of a Scientology handbook, the Standard Tech. 24 And the other one was Standard Ethics, another Scientology 25 symbol. 0598
1 Q And was there some purpose in putting those on 2 that particular poster? 3 A Well, just -- just to make sure that there were 4 some visual images there, you know, linking Scientology. 5 Which obviously the sign says it, but just to make sure 6 that, you know, the Standard Ethics and Standard Tech were, 7 you know, being the main sort of practice areas, some of the 8 belief areas of Scientology were tied into this. 9 Q And when you say tied into this, in conjunction 10 with the other photographs, what do you mean -- excuse me. 11 The other posters -- what do you mean? 12 A Well -- well, I mean -- you know, these were not a 13 composite idea that -- you know, these were each one -- 14 individual signs that were supposed to stand on their own. 15 Q Mm-hmm. 16 A There wasn't a coordinated effort relative to, you 17 know, creating a group of signs that, you know, sent a 18 bigger message than any individual sign did. 19 Q And anyone told you that putting the emblems on 20 the Scientology, Hubbard's Third Reich poster would be 21 inflammatory to Scientologists? 22 A If anybody did, it wasn't Mr. Dandar. He never -- 23 Q I wasn't asking that. I was just asking did 24 anybody tell you that? 25 A I don't remember. I really don't. 0599
1 Q Was -- 2 A I think it was -- I think it was actually Jesse 3 who gave me the book from which these things came. You 4 know, the Scientology book. 5 Q And in 1998 -- 6 THE COURT: Haven't we beat this little picture 7 to death? 8 MR. FUGATE: We can take a break. 9 THE COURT: Thanks. I don't want to hear about 10 it anymore. You beat it to death. 11 All right. We'll be in recess for 15 minutes. 12 (A recess was taken at 10:35 a.m.) 13 (The proceedings resumed at 10:50 a.m.) 14 THE COURT: Okay. You ready? 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: This finishes this. 17 MR. FUGATE: I've got a couple more -- 18 THE COURT: This finishes this for me. I've 19 got to go to a new pad. 20 What's today's date? 21 MR. FUGATE: 22nd. 22 May I approach? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 More pictures. 25 (Defendant's Exhibits Number 116 and 117 marked for 0600
1 identification.) 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q I have handed to the clerk and she has marked two 4 photographs Defendant's 116 and Defendant's 117. Can you 5 look at Defendant's 116 and can you identify the folks in 6 that photograph? 7 A Yes. Frank Oliver is on the left, Ken Dandar in 8 the middle and Teresa Summers on the right. 9 Q All right. And do you recall that picket? 10 MR. DANDAR: Object to the leading question of 11 whether or not that's a picket. 12 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 What is that? 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q What is that? 17 THE COURT: Good. 18 A Well, that's a picture -- Mr. Oliver has a picket 19 sign there. You know, my impression is that's a picket in 20 front of one of the Scientology buildings, but there's no 21 building visible so I can't tell which one. 22 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Do you see, in the far right corner, an individual 25 behind the woman with a reddish hair -- can you make out who 0601
1 that is, sir? 2 A Well, it vaguely looks like me, but I can't -- 3 yeah. I'd say, by the hairstyle, that's me. The receding 4 hair line. Yeah. 5 Q Do you recall this to be a -- any kind of event 6 that you were with Mr. Dandar at? 7 A Yes. A picket. 8 Q And did you go to other pickets with Mr. Dandar? 9 A Yes. He attended, especially around the time of, 10 you know, December 5th, the annual picket; he would show up 11 for most of those. 12 MR. FUGATE: I'd move 116 into evidence, your 13 Honor. 14 THE COURT: It'll be received. 15 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 116 received in evidence.) 16 A Mr. Oliver -- by the way, Mr. Oliver was 17 Mr. Dandar's unofficial cockroach expert. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Tell us about that. 20 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. 21 A He's the one that -- 22 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would object to the 23 conversation in the background here. 24 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I didn't hear it. 25 MR. DANDAR: I may have been too loud. I'm 0602
1 sorry. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 A Mr. Oliver is the one who came up with the idea 4 for Mr. -- and told Mr. Dandar this, that there's no way 5 that cockroaches at the Ft. Harrison Hotel existed. And he 6 believed -- 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q He -- 9 A He, Frank Oliver, believed that Lisa had to have 10 been taken somewhere else, and that she died in a -- in a 11 place that was, you know, not as clean at the Ft. Harrison 12 Hotel. 13 Q Were you -- 14 A And this -- this apparently came to Mr. Oliver in 15 a dream. 16 Q Well, just so we know, were you having a 17 conversation with Mr. Oliver about this? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Was anyone else present? 20 A Mr. Dandar. 21 Q And where did this conversation take place? 22 A All over downtown Clearwater, as I recall. We 23 were walking around. It was discussed later that evening 24 at -- at drinks or dinner, you know, the time that this 25 happened. 0603
1 Q And do you recall what -- what function this would 2 have been in conjunction with, in what year? 3 A I don't know whether it was December of 2000 or 4 1999. It was sometime either one of those two years. I 5 can't remember. But I distinctly remember that incident. 6 Q Do you remember any other conversation about how 7 to utilize cockroach information in the litigation? 8 MR. DANDAR: I'll object. This -- unless he's 9 privy to those conversations, it's hearsay. 10 THE COURT: If he's privy to them. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Do you understand -- 13 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar was there. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Were there -- 16 THE COURT: Otherwise I can't have him telling 17 us what Frank Oliver said -- 18 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me make sure we're clear 19 on that. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q The conversations you just related to the court -- 22 THE COURT: I got that one, Mr. Fugate. We're 23 talking about other ones. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Were there any other conversations with you, 0604
1 Mr. Oliver and Mr. Dandar on the subject? Or anyone else. 2 A You know, around that time of the incident that 3 I'm talking about, which I don't remember honestly whether 4 it was December of '99 or December of 2000, there was this 5 discussion which other people also got involved in -- 6 Mr. Dandar was part of it -- where this whole theory of Lisa 7 dying somewhere besides the Ft. Harrison was discussed, and 8 that that would explain where cockroach bites would have 9 come from on her body, since it was totally unlikely that 10 they came out of the cabanas in the Ft. Harrison Hotel. 11 Q Now, in the photograph, do you -- besides 12 Mr. Dandar, who's the woman to his left? 13 A Teresa Summers. 14 Q In December of 2000, was Teresa Summers working 15 for the LMT? 16 A I don't remember when she started working there, 17 honestly. 18 Q Did she become an employee of the LMT? 19 A She did at some stage. I just don't remember when 20 it was. 21 Q And she's the same Teresa Summers who also was a 22 witness -- listed as a witness in the wrongful death case? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And Mr. Oliver's the same -- Mr. Oliver we've just 25 been talking about, on the LMT advisory board and otherwise 0605
1 making the T-shirts? 2 A T-shirts and picket signs. These are -- the 3 T-shirts -- they're different than the ones before. It's 4 something else that Mr. Oliver made up. 5 Q Now, Defendant's Exhibit 117, can you identify who 6 was depicted in that photograph? 7 A That's Ray Emmons, who was formerly a lieutenant, 8 I believe, on the Clearwater Police Department. 9 Q And did you have any connection with Mr. Emmons 10 through the LMT or otherwise? 11 A Yes. He worked for Mr. Dandar and he also was on, 12 I think, the advisory committee of the LMT. 13 Q He -- 14 A He did -- 15 Q I'm sorry. 16 A He did some private investigation work for the 17 LMT, which -- the same thing he was doing for Mr. Dandar. 18 Q And when you say he worked for Mr. Dandar, do you 19 know approximately what period of time? 20 A Well, I don't know when he first started working 21 for Mr. Dandar, but I remember him being around from at 22 least 1999. 23 THE COURT: What was he? An investigator? PI? 24 Something -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. 0606
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q And would that be both for you and Mr. Dandar -- 3 LMT and Mr. Dandar? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And when you say for Mr. Dandar, do you mean 6 participating in the wrongful death case? 7 A Right. With regards to the wrongful death case. 8 Yes. 9 Q Is Mr. Emmons here today in court? 10 A I saw him walk in a little while ago. I've got to 11 put my glasses back on. 12 Yes. That's him in the back corner, in the white 13 shirt. 14 Q And do you recall Mr. Emmons participating in the 15 picketing as well as Mr. Dandar? 16 A Yes. Mr. Emmons -- you know, he -- at one stage, 17 we were very friendly, and Mr. Emmons was very concerned 18 about my safety at times in Clearwater, through tips and 19 things that he got from people. And there was a period of 20 time where he would accompany me, especially on pickets, 21 just to make sure I was safe. 22 Q Is this dated during the period of time that all 23 the litigation was going on back and forth about the 24 picketing -- 25 A No. 0607
1 Q -- between the church and -- 2 A No, it didn't have to do with that. 3 Q Okay. 4 A I think it was before that. That -- that 5 litigation about the picketing. 6 Q Well, I certainly don't want to go back and -- 7 A Okay. Yeah. Let's don't go there. 8 Q It has something -- 9 Okay. Moving ahead, you had indicated -- and I -- 10 that you recall being present -- and I'm not going to go 11 back through that -- at a meeting where the addition of 12 Mr. Miscavige and expanding the lawsuit was discussed. Do 13 you recall leaving that meeting, if anything unusual 14 happened? 15 A Well, yes. As we went down the elevator, 16 Mr. Dandar said to Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince and myself -- 17 the four of us were in this elevator -- and he said, "You 18 know, this -- this -- we can't discuss that this meeting 19 ever happened," something to that effect. 20 Q And do you recall making any reply to him? 21 A I said, "Okay." 22 Q And up until the time you wrote the affidavit, did 23 you ever discuss that meeting in -- in a public setting such 24 as a deposition? 25 A No. I don't believe I did. 0608
1 Q And did you understand -- did you have an 2 understanding why you should not discuss the meeting? 3 A Well, yes. I mean, I didn't -- you know, this was 4 not said to me. I mean, I assumed that I wasn't supposed to 5 be there. 6 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Now, we've talked briefly about the formation of 10 the LMT. Can you just tell us -- 11 MR. FUGATE: And I'll move through this 12 quickly, Judge. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Can you tell us approximately when, if you recall, 15 that concept, in terms of calling it the LMT, or Lisa 16 McPherson Trust, came up? 17 A Sometime soon after those May, '99 depositions of 18 the three sisters that we talked about. 19 Q And what did you do, sir, to -- to cause the LMT 20 to be set up? 21 A You know, I talked to people who would be willing 22 to go to Clearwater and, you know, set this thing up and 23 work in this organization. And those were principally a man 24 by the name of David Cecere; Jesse Prince, Stacy Brooks, a 25 few others; Gerry Armstrong, Duncan Pierce. And I can't 0609
1 remember who else was at this meeting when we sat down and 2 formulated this whole thing, but that's the core group. 3 Q And those folks were -- were folks that you had 4 known from prior experiences -- 5 THE COURT: Why don't you let him testify? 6 MR. FUGATE: All right. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q How did you know those folks? 9 A Well, they were all very active in the, you know, 10 anti-Scientology area. And you know, Stacy Brooks and I 11 were quite close. Jesse Prince was a good friend. Gerry 12 Armstrong -- you know, I'd loaned him money. He was also 13 somebody that I considered a friend. Duncan Pierce lived 14 near me up in New Hampshire and he was a friend of mine. 15 Q Did you have any discussions, during this same 16 period of time, with Mr. Dandar about setting up the LMT? 17 A Yes. Well, you know, after -- I mean, he told me, 18 you know, following these depositions, that this is what the 19 sisters wanted to do; that they wanted to set up an 20 organization named after Lisa. And you know, that's when, 21 you know, Stacy and I principally started getting together 22 the people that were going to, you know, be part of this 23 organization or at least part of setting it up and -- and 24 running it. Although for a variety of reasons, Gerry 25 Armstrong -- it was not feasible for Gerry Armstrong because 0610
1 of his -- an agreement that he had with Scientology, that we 2 obviously know that he's violated many times since. 3 Q We don't need to get into that. We've heard about 4 that. 5 Just -- what did -- what did Mr. Dandar suggest to 6 you, if anything, that he would do to help set up the trust? 7 A Well, at -- you know, right at that time, he 8 didn't say anything, you know, other than the fact that, you 9 know, the family wants an organization set up named after 10 Lisa McPherson and, you know, whatever I can do to help. I 11 mean, it wasn't a -- you know, a mandate or a general thing. 12 But when we eventually came to set up that 13 organization later in the fall, after that summer 14 organizational period, you know, he made sure that it was 15 okay with the family to use the Lisa McPherson name. In 16 fact, I believe, you know, somebody else -- I think Benetta 17 Slaughter, who is also a witness in this case, sometime just 18 after we filed the original incorporation papers, filed -- 19 you know, took the name that we originally had. Which I 20 can't remember what it was now, but -- 21 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 22 Honor? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 118-A, B and C marked for 25 identification.) 0611
1 MR. FUGATE: This, Judge, will be a Composite 2 118, A, B and C. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Do you recognize Defendant's Exhibit 118, A, B and 5 C? 6 A Yes, I do. 7 Q And do you recall, sir -- and I think we've 8 covered this, but if you go to 118-C, the articles of 9 incorporation are reflected there. Is this -- you have 10 already discussed the decisions to make it not -- to make it 11 for profit. 12 MR. FUGATE: And I think yesterday we did cover 13 that, didn't we, Judge; making it not for profit 14 afterwards? I think we did. 15 THE COURT: I believe you did. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Are these, sir, the letters from Mr. Dandar and 18 the articles of incorporation that incorporated LMT, Lisa 19 McPherson Trust? 20 A I think they're some of them, yes. 21 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would move 118-A, B and C 22 into evidence. 23 THE COURT: Any objection? 24 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 25 THE COURT: They'll be received. 0612
1 (Defendant's Exhibits Number 118-A, B and C received in 2 evidence.) 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q You see on 118-A that there's a "re:" line with a 5 cross-out? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Is that what you were just talking about? 8 A Yes. That's correct. 9 THE COURT: So the original name was supposed 10 to be The Lisa Foundation, Inc., and that name was 11 taken by Ms. Slaughter? Is that it? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. There was a lot 13 of discussion about the name and whether, you know, 14 the whole McPherson name in it would make it too 15 long. And there was a sort of a desire, you know, 16 in discussing this with Mr. Dandar, let's, you 17 know -- Lisa is more than enough in this area for 18 people to know what this is about. And so we 19 decided on The Lisa Foundation. 20 And when Ms. Slaughter -- I don't remember how 21 this happened, but Ms. Slaughter incorporated The 22 Lisa Foundation name the same day that these papers 23 were sent to the Secretary of State's office. And 24 you know, we scurried around to change it to The 25 Lisa McPherson Trust after that. I mean, Mr. Dandar 0613
1 scurried around with the Secretary of State. We 2 didn't do it ourselves. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q And to utilize Lisa McPherson's name, was anything 5 done to obtain that approval, do you know? 6 A Well, Mr. Dandar told me that he had discussed it 7 with Dell and she wanted to do that, and that he had 8 discussed with Dell just the name The Lisa Foundation as 9 well, and she liked that as well. 10 Q Do you recall a dinner in November of 1999, after 11 the creation of the Lisa McPherson Trust, that you attended? 12 A I think that was the -- the steakhouse dinner? 13 Q I'm asking you, sir. 14 A Well, that's where we frequently went for dinner, 15 and I believe there was a dinner then. 16 Q Well, did you have a -- a meeting with 17 Ms. Liebreich -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- after the formation of the Lisa McPherson 20 Trust? 21 A Yes. 22 THE COURT: Who? I thought it was Liebreich? 23 How do you say it, Mr. Dandar? 24 MR. DANDAR: "Leebright (phonetic)." But I say 25 Liebreich. She doesn't care. But -- 0614
1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Did you have a meeting with Ms. Liebreich? 4 A Yes. We met at dinner, yes. 5 Q And can you tell the judge what happened at that 6 dinner meeting, as best you recall? 7 A Well, just the general enthusiasm for doing this 8 and setting it up; that -- you know, Stacy Brooks was 9 talking to her about the -- the agreement for the bulk of 10 the proceeds, you know, how it was couched the first time 11 that I heard Stacy talking about it. But then I got into it 12 as well with Mrs. Liebreich. Her husband, Art, was there. 13 You know, it was just general enthusiasm for getting this 14 thing off the ground. You know, sort of fulfilling what 15 were described as Fannie's wishes, Fannie being Lisa 16 McPherson's mother, and the wish of -- the current wish of 17 the family, you know, to have something that would be around 18 for a substantial period of time in memory of Lisa. 19 Q And who was present at that dinner with 20 Ms. Liebreich, her husband and you? 21 A Mr. Dandar was definitely there. I believe his 22 wife was there. 23 THE COURT: Whose wife? 24 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar's wife. 25 A Thom Haverty and his wife. And I'm not sure 0615
1 whether another sister was there or not. You know, it was 2 obviously a lot of us, so -- 3 Oh, no. Those are the only ones I can remember 4 for certain. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Was Ms. Brooks there? 7 A Yes. Ms. Brooks was there, yes. 8 Q Was anyone else there that later became on the 9 board of LMT there, if you recall? 10 A Oh, well, one more person I remember, Dr. Garko. 11 Q Okay. 12 A I'm not sure whether any other family member was 13 there or not. 14 Q So there's no confusion, was Dr. Garko ever on the 15 Lisa McPherson Trust board? 16 A No. No. No. I just wanted to clarify that I 17 think he was -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A Well, I'm sure he was there. 20 Q Now, at this meeting, did you discuss your plans 21 for who you wanted to bring in to work on the Lisa McPherson 22 Trust? 23 A I don't think so. I think that was already pretty 24 well set. 25 Q Did you have -- 0616
1 A I mean -- I mean -- 2 Q I'm sorry. 3 A -- everybody knew that Jesse, Stacy and myself 4 were going to be the -- and David Cecere were going to be 5 the core of it. 6 Q Who is David Cecere? 7 A David is another former Scientologist, who lived 8 in Seattle. He was a -- you know, active as a critic in the 9 anti-Scientology arena. He was working for Boeing 10 Corporation and, you know, I persuaded him to come down to 11 Clearwater. 12 Q Did you fund him coming to Clearwater? 13 A Yes, I did. 14 Q And how did you do that, sir? 15 A Well, paid for his moving expenses, you know; he 16 got a salary at the Lisa McPherson Trust. 17 Q What was the salary, if you remember? 18 A I think it was $5,000 a month. 19 Q Did you notice his name on the witness list, the 20 plaintiff's witness list yesterday? 21 Let me change the question. 22 Do you know if he ever became a witness for the 23 plaintiff in this wrongful death case? 24 A I don't remember whether he did or not. 25 Q Had you discussed, at this dinner meeting, where 0617
1 you wanted to locate the Lisa McPherson Trust? 2 A Well, I -- I think it was pretty well set up then, 3 I mean, you know, in terms of where we were going to locate. 4 There were earlier discussions about whether to locate this 5 in Washington or whether to locate it in Clearwater. But by 6 the time of this meeting, it was already, you know, aimed 7 towards Clearwater. It wasn't -- you know, that had already 8 occurred, those additions. 9 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar about 10 where the Lisa McPherson Trust would be located? 11 A Yes. That it would be located in Clearwater. 12 Q Can you tell us anything else about those 13 discussions? 14 A Well, Mr. Dandar preferred Clearwater to 15 Washington. 16 Q Did he say why? 17 A Well, because this is where the action was 18 vis-a-vis Scientology. You know, this is where there would 19 be the most benefit of keeping this name in front of the 20 public as much as possible. 21 Q And did you -- 22 A The name of Lisa McPherson. 23 Q And that was a discussion you had with Mr. Dandar? 24 A Yes. 25 Q On more than one occasion? 0618
1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you ultimately get the building that we've 3 discussed -- 4 When did you get that, I should ask? 5 A Well, we -- I think we moved into it, you know, 6 one of the first couple of days of January, 2000, but it had 7 been contracted for purchase sometime in early November. 8 Q And how much did -- 9 Did you pay for the -- for the building that 10 became the Lisa McPherson Trust office? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q And how much did you fund for that purchase? 13 A I believe the -- I don't remember exactly, but 14 the -- it was roughly $325,000 for the building, and then 15 there was some furniture and equipment that we bought on top 16 of that. 17 Q And the equipment would have been computers that 18 we've heard about already? 19 A Mostly desks, Xerox machines, phone systems, 20 fixtures, some TVs, some apartment furniture. There was an 21 apartment upstairs. 22 Q Now, prior to -- 23 A Things like that. 24 Q -- moving into the Lisa McPherson Trust office 25 building -- 0619
1 Was that in the same building that -- that the 2 church mess hall or same group of buildings was located in 3 Clearwater, downtown Clearwater? 4 A It was in the same block. 5 Q It's not -- it's a series of buildings that just 6 happen to be -- 7 A Well, they're all -- they're all joined. It's 8 not -- there's no -- no space between the buildings. It is 9 in the same continuous block of -- there's one -- there was 10 one building in between -- you know, 40 feet or 50 feet 11 wide, between our building and the Clearwater Bank Building. 12 Q And prior to moving into those offices, where was 13 the Lisa McPherson Trust operated from? 14 A Well, at first we operated out of Mr. Dandar's 15 office. You know, during -- during the sort of set-up phase 16 from the time Stacy Brooks and David Cecere came down there, 17 while -- while we were looking for office space -- we had 18 some problems getting office space in downtown Clearwater. 19 And eventually, you know, I ended up buying this building 20 just because we had had trouble getting office space. 21 Q If you look at Defendant's Exhibit 118-C, the last 22 page, above the -- your name and your address do you see the 23 registered agent address? 24 A Yes. Stacy Brooks. Stacy Brooks being the 25 registered agent. And that was at Mr. Dandar's office. 0620
1 Q So the 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Number 201, 2 was Mr. Dandar's office? 3 A It was, yes. 4 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Did you receive any communication -- other 8 communication from Ms. Liebreich about the opening or 9 setting up, establishment of the LMT? 10 A What do you mean, any other communication with 11 her? 12 Q Besides the meeting that you had at the 13 steakhouse, did you receive any other communication, phone 14 call, anything of that nature? 15 A Well, the day we opened the building, we called 16 her -- 17 Q Okay. 18 A -- you know, the day we moved in. 19 Q Can you tell us about that conversation? 20 A Well, it was, you know, generally just a very 21 pleasant conversation, you know, each expressing our 22 enthusiasm that -- that this wish of the family had come to 23 pass; that -- that an organization set up with Lisa 24 McPherson's name existed. 25 Q Now, we've already gone over virtually everybody, 0621
1 I think, on the -- on Defendant's Exhibit 81, which is the 2 board of directors and the advisory committee. Do you still 3 have that up here with you? 4 A It is up here. It's just finding it is going to 5 be the tricky part. It's a single -- 6 THE COURT: Is there something else you want to 7 ask him about before he goes to all the trouble to 8 find it, and I do too? 9 MR. FUGATE: It's not -- it's not important, 10 Judge. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 THE WITNESS: I got it. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q The -- the selection of the folks that are listed 15 as board of directors on the advisory committee, and 16 actually the office -- officers and staff, who took part in 17 selecting the individuals that are depicted on Defendant's 18 Exhibit 81? 19 A Well, apart from Dell Liebreich and Kim Krenek, 20 Stacy Brooks and I pretty much picked them all. 21 Q Okay. 22 A You know, Mr. Dandar thought that it would really 23 be good for Dell Liebreich to be on the board, and a younger 24 generation family member who would be a beneficiary of the 25 future of this organization, you know, who would be 0622
1 long-term involved in it. 2 Q The picketing that you've described earlier this 3 morning, where was that organized from, sir, over the years 4 2000, 2001? 5 A Out of the LMT's office. 6 Q And were the picket signs -- where were they 7 stored, sir? 8 A We had a big room upstairs in which there were 9 just hundreds of these things. 10 Q Was that -- 11 A You know, basically, a repository during the -- 12 from the annual pickets. 13 At first they were stored in a -- I think when 14 this first started, a fellow named Jeff Jacobsen, who worked 15 with us, he was -- he had them stored in a, you know, sort 16 of a self-rental outdoor place. I don't know what you'd 17 call it. And once we opened the LMT, we put them in there. 18 But at some stage, we took them out again, when this whole 19 issue of, you know, these pickets being organized by the LMT 20 were talked about in court a lot. 21 Q Well, who participated in that decision to take 22 out the picket signs? 23 A Well, Mr. Dandar is the one who informed us about 24 this and I believe that he talked with Stacy Brooks and Jeff 25 Jacobsen, not with me directly. 0623
1 Q So you were not party to that conversation? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you learn that the signs were taken away from 4 the LMT, though? 5 A Yeah. Stacy Brooks told me that they were going 6 to be taken away. 7 Q Earlier today you indicated that there was 8 coordination with you and Mr. Dandar on the dates that the 9 pickets and the vigils would occur. What did you mean by 10 that, sir? 11 A Well, just to make sure everything was coordinated 12 around the family members being there. 13 Q And what was the reason for the family members 14 being at the pickets or vigil? 15 You should tell us whether it was both. 16 A Yeah. They -- they were -- well, they certainly 17 were at the vigils. You know, I don't remember whether the 18 family ever carried any picket signs, although I think Ann 19 Carlson -- I remember Ann Carlson carrying a picket sign at 20 one stage. But I'm not sure Dell or Lee Skelton did. 21 But the -- the key thing about the pickets was to 22 make sure that, you know, the dates that this picket got 23 organized were not the week before the family came or not 24 the week after. And you know, every year there was every 25 attempt, you know, to send out big packs to the media about 0624
1 Lisa McPherson's death, you know, all the press clippings 2 and things of that nature, and to try to get as much media 3 as possible around those pickets, and to focus on that 4 vigil. 5 Q And who was in charge of coordinating the media 6 and getting these packs out? 7 A Well, it -- it revolved -- there were a number of 8 people involved in it. Jeff Jacobsen was, you know, the 9 most active, in terms of doing that. Although the last year 10 that the picket occurred -- 11 THE COURT: Did you ever think maybe we're 12 getting a little far afield here? I mean, this is a 13 motion dealing with perjured testimony and what have 14 you. We have to get into every little detail as if 15 this were a trial in front of a jury? 16 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, this is only to 17 establish the connection with LMT and the wrongful 18 death case and the coordination of the media, is -- 19 actually -- 20 And I'll move on. 21 THE COURT: This is not a trial. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Did you discuss with Mr. Dandar coordination of 24 the pickets and the media that you've just been describing? 25 A Well, the coordination in terms of the timing of 0625
1 the pickets -- 2 Q Mm-hmm. 3 A -- yes. In terms of the media, I don't believe 4 that that was something that I had direct discussions with 5 Mr. Dandar about. 6 Q Now -- 7 A Again -- but just -- just one final thing about 8 Jeff Jacobsen. 9 Again, the last year of the picket -- that there 10 was a picket, which was December of 2000, Jeff Jacobsen 11 purposefully did not organize that picket. It was sort of 12 organized more randomly than it had been in the past. And 13 that was because we didn't want the LMT to appear to be 14 orchestrating these things. And that was something that was 15 being discussed in the courtroom. 16 Q Okay. And who -- 17 A And that -- you know, that came from Mr. Dandar, 18 the same time that he talked about the signs. And that's 19 what Stacy Brooks told me, anyway. 20 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Now, did you -- in conjunction with the wrongful 24 death case, did you have any policy or instruction for LMT 25 employees that you had laid down? 0626
1 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Relevancy. 2 THE COURT: I don't know what it is, so I don't 3 know what the answer is. I mean, what are you 4 talking about? I've got to hear the answer before I 5 know if it's relevant. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. 7 A Well, the -- you know, for Stacy, Jesse, and Jeff 8 Jacobsen and Mark Bunker, clearly whenever there was a need 9 to assist Mr. Dandar in any way, you know, that was a 10 priority. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Assist Mr. Dandar with what? 13 A With whatever he wanted in connection with this 14 case. 15 Q As far as you know, did you give those as 16 instructions to those individuals? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q And did you observe that they were carried out 19 when you were there? 20 A Bunker was a little bit slow in -- you know, 21 because Mr. Dandar would ask for a lot of things sometimes, 22 from Mr. Bunker, and he had a lot of stuff to do, and he 23 wasn't as quick as Stacy or Jesse or Jeff Jacobsen. But 24 yes, they did carry them out. 25 Q Now, were you responsible for Mr. Prince moving 0627
1 here to Florida? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And when was that -- 4 THE COURT: How many times do we have to go 5 through that testimony? 6 MR. FUGATE: I didn't remember that we have. 7 If we have, I'll move on. 8 THE COURT: Many times. 9 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Just let me have a moment, 10 your Honor, because I want to go through -- 11 THE COURT: Who were these people, again, that 12 were to help Mr. Dandar whenever he needed them? 13 Jesse, Stacy -- who else? 14 THE WITNESS: Jeff Jacobson and Mark Bunker. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: Jeff Jacobsen was, you know, 17 running this library stuff, so any kind of 18 Scientology-related materials that Mr. Dandar 19 needed, you know, Jeff would be the one who would 20 put those together. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: I'm moving ahead, Judge. I just 23 have to get the documents. 24 Now, may I approach the clerk and get the 25 docket numbers -- I mean, the exhibit numbers for 0628
1 the agreements? 2 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I step off the 3 stand to get a cough drop out of my case? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 MR. FUGATE: Do you have those in front of you, 6 Judge? 7 THE COURT: What numbers? 8 MR. FUGATE: 111, which is Mr. Minton's 9 affidavit; 112, which is Ms. Liebreich's affidavit; 10 and 115, which is Mr. Dandar's affidavit. 11 THE COURT: I have them, but I'm not sure 12 where, so let me look through my things. 13 I now have them. 14 MR. FUGATE: And you asked me would we get back 15 to them, and now we are, Judge, so -- a little bit 16 herky-jerky, but we're there. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Can you tell us, with regard to your affidavit, 19 sir, how you came to understand that an affidavit would be 20 coming to you? 21 A From Mr. Dandar. 22 This -- this is the December 13th, 2000 affidavit 23 you're talking about. 24 Q Yes, sir. 25 A I'm sorry. What were the numbers again? Let me 0629
1 just -- I'm sorry. 2 THE COURT: 111, 112 and 113. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. I've got them. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Yours is 111, sir. 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Prior to December of 2000, had you had any 8 discussion with Mr. Dandar regarding what we've called or 9 termed the agreement for the bulk or a substantial portion 10 of the funds being provided to you? 11 A Yes. This was concerning backtracking on this 12 agreement. 13 Q And when you say backtracking -- 14 A Backtracking on statements about the agreement. 15 Q And who used the term "backtrack"? 16 A Mr. Dandar. 17 Q And when did that happen, the best of your 18 knowledge, if you can date it to a time or an event? 19 A Well, it was May, June, I think, of 2000. 20 Q And do you remember what was going on at or about 21 that time that -- in the case? 22 A The -- well, you know, I didn't attend any of 23 these hearings, so I got my information from either 24 Mr. Dandar, who attended them, or Stacy Brooks, who attended 25 them, or Jesse Prince, who attended then. 0630
1 But there was a lot of focus on my financial 2 involvement in this case, and particularly, which I 3 testified to about yesterday, the -- the Church of 4 Scientology making a rather substantial issue out of this 5 improper purposes of the litigation, as a result of, 6 basically, the litigation being engaged in to set up a group 7 to attack Scientology for the long-term. 8 Q Do you recall a specific conversation with 9 Mr. Dandar about that -- about -- 10 You just said the term "backtrack" was used. 11 A Yes. He and Dr. Garko came to the office one 12 day -- 13 Q Which office? 14 A The LMT's office at 33 North Ft. Harrison Avenue. 15 Q And do you recall approximately when that was? 16 A As I said, I think it was like May, June. 17 Sometime in that time frame. You know, close to the middle 18 of the year. 19 Q Mm-hmm. 20 A It -- you know, there was a concern about this. 21 And you know, Mr. Dandar said, you know, we're going to have 22 to backtrack bigtime on this -- on these statements about 23 this agreement. 24 Q Did you understand, A, what he meant by backtrack? 25 A Yeah. I mean -- well, you know, we can't be 0631
1 talking about this. 2 Q And -- 3 A And backtrack meant, you know, somehow back out of 4 it. 5 Q Back out of it -- 6 A Back out of the public statements. 7 Q And prior to that, I think we -- you indicated 8 yesterday you had made many public statements about your 9 understanding, correct? 10 A Public statements and depositions and things of 11 that nature. 12 Q Were you, at that time, scheduled to be going into 13 other depositions that you knew of? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Was there a discussion with you and Mr. Dandar 16 about those depositions and about the backtracking? 17 A I think that -- you know, I'd have to refer to my 18 affidavit on that, but I believe that deposition was later, 19 not -- not right then, in May/June. 20 Q My question was, was there a discussion about 21 other depositions coming up; if there was -- 22 A At some point -- 23 THE COURT: Are you talking about at the 24 meeting -- 25 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 0632
1 THE COURT: -- at LMT between Mr. Dandar, 2 Mr. Garko -- Dr. Garko and this witness? 3 MR. FUGATE: That's what my -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. At that meeting, I don't 6 think so. 7 THE COURT: And he's already said that once 8 before. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q So how is it -- did you have any discussion with 11 him after that -- 12 Well, back up. 13 At that meeting in May or June, was there any 14 discussion about an affidavit being filed -- 15 A No. 16 Q -- by you? 17 A No. 18 Q Was there any discussion about an affidavit being 19 filed by Dell Liebreich? 20 A No. 21 Q When did the subject come up that you came to 22 understand that there would be a affidavit coming to you? 23 A Sometime in December of 2000. 24 Q And what discussions do you recall having about 25 that? 0633
1 A Mr. Dandar said that he was going to send up an 2 affidavit. And you know, he didn't go into a lot of detail, 3 but he said it concerned the agreement. 4 Q Did you -- did there come a time when you got -- 5 A The agreement about the -- the bulk of the 6 proceeds as opposed to the -- 7 Q Did there come a time -- 8 A -- lending. 9 Q -- when you -- 10 THE COURT: Wait. You're so busy wanting to 11 testify that you won't let the witness finish. 12 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 13 A Yeah. The agreement -- just to clarify, the 14 agreement that was talked about was the agreement about the 15 bulk of the proceeds, not any other agreement that -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Could we have a date for this, 17 please? 18 THE WITNESS: I believe I just said -- 19 THE COURT: He said December of 2000. 20 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to restrain myself, 21 Judge. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Do you -- do you recall whether it was a phone 25 conversation or face-to-face conversation about the 0634
1 affidavit? 2 A Phone conversation. I was in New Hampshire. 3 Q And who was on the phone, if you recall? 4 A Just Mr. Dandar and myself. 5 Q Stacy Brooks wasn't on that phone call? 6 A No. Not on that one. 7 Q Okay. What was discussed in that phone 8 conversation? 9 A That he was going to send me an agreement -- not 10 an agreement -- an affidavit. 11 Q Mm-hmm. 12 A -- that concerned this agreement relative to the 13 bulk of the proceeds. 14 Q Did you have any conversation with him about what 15 you wanted to do with executing or not, at that time? 16 A Not at that time. Only after I got the affidavit. 17 Q Tell us how you got the agreement (sic), and when. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Affidavit. 19 MR. FUGATE: Affidavit. I'm sorry. Now I'm 20 doing it. 21 THE COURT: Now we've got not only one person 22 testifying, but we've got somebody else helping him. 23 MR. FUGATE: Which I need, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Obviously. 25 A Could you ask me that question again? I've kind 0635
1 of lost -- 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q I sure can. 4 A -- lost where we were. 5 Q When did you get the affidavit, if you remember? 6 A I don't remember the exact date, but it was, you 7 know, obviously, sometime prior to -- prior to 8 December 13th. You know, sometime shortly after the phone 9 call, the original phone call with Mr. Dandar, and 10 December 13th. 11 Q After you got it, what did you do? 12 A I called up Mr. Dandar the same day I got it. 13 Q And can you tell us about that conversation? 14 A Well -- 15 THE COURT: Let me go back to this, now that 16 I'm looking at it. It's dated 13th of December. So 17 if you could remember how many days you held onto 18 it, that might help you remember how long you had it 19 before you signed it. Do you remember? 20 THE WITNESS: I don't remember, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Was it a week or was it a few days 22 or two weeks? 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, I would imagine it was, you 24 know, a matter of a few days. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 0636
1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 2 THE COURT: So you got this a few days before 3 you executed it. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. And whatever day that was 6 that you got it -- 7 How did you get it? 8 THE WITNESS: I believe it came by courier. 9 THE COURT: One of those FedEx things or 10 something you just rip off the -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, it could have been 12 overnight mail, but it was one of those fast things. 13 THE COURT: Packets -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 15 THE COURT: Okay. And when you got it, you're 16 saying that you -- whatever date that was, you 17 called Mr. Dandar on that date. 18 THE WITNESS: Right. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Now go ahead. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Can you tell us what you recall of the discussion 22 that you had with Mr. Dandar about the affidavit? 23 A Well, I told Mr. Dandar that, you know, that this 24 was a completely false affidavit, with regards to that 25 agreement. And -- and I told him -- I pointed out, you 0637
1 know, that there's been all kinds of statements about this. 2 And you know, he pointed out to me that, you know, "For the 3 good of this case, we have got to get this damn agreement 4 out of the picture, because this is what Scientology is 5 using against us in the court." Again going back to this 6 improper purpose thing. 7 Q Mm-hmm. 8 A And you know, I also felt uncomfortable with it. 9 Because you know, by saying that there wasn't any agreement, 10 you know, in writing, I mean, this, was like, you know, the 11 perfect opportunity to be rolled over or whatever, you know, 12 in respect of one of the major reasons to be involved in 13 this thing and funding this, was to make sure that there 14 was, you know, an organization that would continue to be 15 able to fight Scientology for a long time. And you know, 16 Mr. Dandar, you know, basically said that, you know, that 17 the -- you know, that there is no doubt that the agreement 18 is still in place, but from this point forward, it's going 19 to have to be a secret agreement that we don't talk about. 20 Q Who used the term "secret agreement"? 21 A That was Mr. Dandar's term. 22 Q And what else did you -- do you recall of the 23 conversation that you had about your concerns that you've 24 just described? 25 A Well, Stacy was there in New Hampshire. She -- 0638
1 she was -- before I called Mr. Dandar, I mean, you know, she 2 read this thing just like I read the thing, and you know, 3 she said to me, you know, "I think you're --" 4 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Hearsay. 5 THE COURT: Well, she's already testified, so 6 we'll see if they say the same thing. 7 A You know, she said, "This is not the right thing 8 to do. This is -- this is wrong to do this," you know, to 9 lie in an affidavit. And you know, and she said, "I think 10 he's just trying to screw you." 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Did you convey that to Mr. Dandar? 13 A I didn't say that, no. 14 Q Okay. 15 A It was -- you know, it was clearly in the back of 16 my mind, because you know, here I was being asked to sign 17 something that says this agreement that I had already talked 18 about, already testified about in depositions, that this was 19 all just a crock of you-know-what. 20 Q Well, why in the world did you sign it? 21 A Well, because Mr. Dandar says this is, you know, 22 something that has to be done for the case. 23 THE COURT: Do you lie that readily? Somebody 24 on a long distance call says, "Hey, this is 25 important." This is a lie and you knew it was a 0639
1 lie, but after all, Mr. Dandar said, "Just sign it, 2 Bob," and you just put your name on it? Is that 3 what you're telling me? 4 THE WITNESS: That is -- 5 THE COURT: Is that how little you think of the 6 system? 7 Answer those in that order. Is that all it 8 took, is somebody in Florida on a phone call to 9 twist your arm, to sign something you now say you 10 knew was false? 11 THE WITNESS: That's -- that's all it took, 12 your Honor, with Mr. Dandar assuring me that the 13 agreement was still in place and that the -- that 14 the case was going to be better off as a result of 15 this; that the -- that we had to defuse what 16 Scientology was doing in the court system. 17 THE COURT: So what I understand, Mr. Minton, 18 is, it was more important to you to get your money 19 than it was to tell a false story under oath in 20 court and commit perjury. Is that what you just 21 said? 22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what -- what I'm 23 trying to say is it was more important to continue 24 the attack on Scientology with this case, with this 25 organization that would be sustained by whatever was 0640
1 won at this trial. 2 And yes, your Honor, I -- it was -- it was 3 wrong to do this. I recognize that it was wrong. 4 You know, I've done a lot of wrong things in this 5 case. And I -- you know, I realize that the court's 6 time has been wasted as a result of the stuff that 7 I've done. And I'm -- you know, I'm not proud of 8 it. I'm ashamed of a lot of the things that I've 9 done, not only vis-a-vis this court but towards 10 Scientology. You know, they've done a lot of bad 11 things to me too. But you know, I was -- 12 THE COURT: Save your apology for them to them. 13 This is about lying under oath in a document to this 14 court. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I did lie, your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Because the money was more 18 important to you than the truth was. 19 THE WITNESS: No. The case was more important 20 to everybody -- 21 THE COURT: Well, what's the case, Mr. Minton? 22 THE WITNESS: The wrongful death case, your 23 Honor. 24 THE COURT: Yes. And what was the anticipated 25 result at the end of the case, Mr. Minton? 0641
1 THE WITNESS: That there would be enough money 2 to continue to fight Scientology for a long time. 3 THE COURT: And what's the key word there, 4 Mr. Minton? 5 THE WITNESS: Well -- 6 THE COURT: Is it "money"? 7 THE WITNESS: The money was the -- 8 THE COURT: So let's say money, slash, 9 Scientology. Is that it? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I had -- 11 THE COURT: Is money more important to you than 12 the truth? Yes or no? 13 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: But it was in this case, wasn't it? 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I -- I didn't -- I 16 certainly didn't think about this as a money issue 17 at the time that Mr. Dandar and I talked about this. 18 This wasn't a question of money. This was a 19 question of, you know, this case is so important 20 that we have got to do this. 21 THE COURT: Well, as I understood you, 22 Mr. Minton -- I apologize for raising my voice, but 23 it is very aggravating -- as I understood it, what 24 you said was your concern was -- well, number one 25 was, "Well, this is a lie." But right after that, 0642
1 in short order was, well, wait a minute. This is 2 going to screw me in getting my money, because I'm 3 saying here there's no agreement. And -- 4 THE WITNESS: Well -- 5 THE COURT: And it was okay, because Mr. Dandar 6 said, "Don't worry about it, Bob. There's a secret 7 agreement and it's still in effect." That all had 8 to do with the money. 9 THE WITNESS: I said I didn't say anything to 10 Mr. Dandar about that. Stacy Brooks and I discussed 11 that. I didn't say I said that to Mr. Dandar. 12 THE COURT: Oh, yes, you did, Mr. Minton. You 13 said you said to Mr. -- Mr. Dandar, you said this 14 very clearly in this court -- "What about the 15 agreement," and Mr. Dandar said -- 16 THE WITNESS: I said what about the 17 agreement -- 18 THE COURT: "-- The agreement still exists, but 19 Bob, it's a secret agreement," or words to that 20 effect, right? 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 22 But what I'm saying I didn't say, your Honor, 23 is I didn't say to Mr. Dandar -- and I believe 24 that's what I thought you just said -- I didn't say 25 to Mr. Dandar, "You're not going to screw me in this 0643
1 thing, are you?" 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: I did ask him about the 4 agreement. 5 THE COURT: Well, maybe you used nicer words 6 than Ms. Brooks. But what you conveyed, I gather, 7 to him was, "Jeez, I'm getting ready to sign the 8 affidavit, and it says there's no deal, no 9 agreement. What's going to happen to my money at 10 the end of the case?" 11 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, your Honor. It wasn't 12 my money. 13 THE COURT: What's going to happen to LMT's 14 money? What's going to happen to the money that was 15 going to go -- this is your testimony, sir. What's 16 going to happen to the money that's going to go to 17 the organization that I control? 18 THE WITNESS: Yesterday we went through this, 19 your Honor, and I told you that this wasn't an 20 instance where there was going to ever be a 21 situation where any money was going to anything 22 other than a nonprofit corporation. 23 THE COURT: That's what you say. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: All right. So I'm going to ask you 0644
1 this one more time, and I'm going to hear how you 2 answer this. 3 You signed this false affidavit. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. And -- and obviously 6 now, I believe you say you signed it for the case. 7 To keep the case going. 8 THE WITNESS: Well -- 9 THE COURT: Put the case -- 10 THE WITNESS: -- Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Dandar -- 11 neither Mr. Dandar nor myself wanted this case 12 derailed over Scientology's allegations about the 13 improper purpose of this litigation. 14 THE COURT: Did it ever occur to you to call a 15 lawyer, say, "Is there anything wrong with a person 16 who gets money from a case contributing it to 17 anybody they want?" You ever -- did you ever confer 18 with a lawyer about that, to see if there was 19 anything wrong with that? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, no, I didn't, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Have you since? 22 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor -- 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 24 MR. HOWIE: I believe that touches on -- 25 THE COURT: That may touch on -- 0645
1 MR. HOWIE: -- privilege. 2 THE COURT: -- privilege. I'm sorry. 3 Have you talked to anybody but a lawyer, since, 4 about whether there's anything wrong about that? 5 Have you talked to Ms. Brooks, for example? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't believe any of us 7 felt there was really anything wrong with this, but 8 Mr. Dandar thought there was something wrong with it 9 because Scientology was using it effectively against 10 him in the court. You know, I -- 11 THE COURT: Scientology made an allegation. If 12 everybody had been truthful about whatever was going 13 on -- 14 Did you think there was something wrong going 15 on? I mean, I don't know. 16 THE WITNESS: I didn't think it was wrong, your 17 Honor. 18 THE COURT: But -- but Mr. Dandar said it was a 19 problem. So Mr. Dandar is to be blamed for causing 20 you, a grown businessman, to lie? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm not saying 22 Mr. Dandar is to blame for this. I'm the one who 23 lied. I'm the one that signed the affidavit. You 24 know, I talked about it to Mr. Dandar. He's the one 25 that wanted me to sign the affidavit, but I'm the 0646
1 one who, of my own free will, decided to lie to this 2 court. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: And I've said it before. And you 5 know, I am sorry for the problems that this has 6 caused. You know, I've told you that I'm ashamed of 7 this. And I'm ashamed of other things that I've 8 done in this case that were wrong. And what I'm 9 trying to do here, your Honor, is set the record 10 straight about this. 11 THE COURT: And the bottom line is, Mr. Minton, 12 as I understand your testimony -- and you just tell 13 me that I'm wrong and then I'll try to figure out 14 what else it is -- is that the money was more 15 important to you than the truth. For whatever 16 purpose the money was to be used, the end result of 17 the case was money, for whatever purpose it was to 18 be used. But if the case got derailed, it meant 19 there was no money. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, that's -- that is obvious, 21 your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 THE WITNESS: True. 24 THE COURT: So the truth of the matter is, as 25 we sit here today, and you and I look at each other, 0647
1 the money was more important to Bob Minton than the 2 truth. 3 THE WITNESS: You know, I -- I think you're 4 trying to simplify it too much, your Honor. You 5 know, there was a lot more involved in this than 6 money. There was this case, which is only about 7 money. Otherwise -- nobody's going to do anything 8 other than get money out of this case, one way or 9 another, now. 10 But you know, this whole attack on Scientology, 11 which was going to take money to do, yes, I agree. 12 But the -- this was the key thing, you know, going 13 after Scientology. You know, Mr. Dandar was 14 certainly on that bandwagon with me and everybody 15 else who was -- 16 THE COURT: You know what? We're going to let 17 Mr. Dandar explain himself when that's the proper 18 time. But right now this is Bob Minton explaining 19 himself. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: And he's going to continue on. 22 So -- 23 THE WITNESS: You know, I mean, money was -- 24 money was what was being sued for in this case. You 25 know, I can't deny that. But there was a -- 0648
1 THE COURT: How much are you worth? 2 THE WITNESS: But getting -- 3 THE COURT: How much are you worth, Mr. Minton? 4 You don't have to answer that if you don't want 5 to. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 7 THE COURT: If you want to take the Fifth 8 Amendment. 9 But I'm kind of curious as to how much you have 10 to have -- 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 12 THE COURT: I mean, how much did you have to 13 finance litigation against Scientology and how much 14 did you have to attack Scientology and do all the 15 things that you apparently wanted to do, apart from 16 this lawsuit? 17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I have not been 18 trying to make money out of any of this. 19 THE COURT: And I didn't mean to infer that you 20 did. You had been fighting Scientology before this 21 lawsuit ever came about. 22 THE WITNESS: Not for long. 23 THE COURT: Yes or no? 24 THE WITNESS: You know, 1995. 25 THE COURT: Yes or no? You were a critic of 0649
1 Scientology. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. Before. 3 THE COURT: Before this lawsuit was ever filed. 4 THE WITNESS: In October of 1995 was the first 5 time that I ever picketed against the Church of 6 Scientology and the first time I ever posted on the 7 Internet about the Church of Scientology. 8 THE COURT: And that's the first time, I think 9 you said, you met Mr. Dandar. 10 THE WITNESS: No. No, your Honor. That was in 11 March 9th, 1997. 12 THE COURT: Okay. So two years before you ever 13 met Mr. Dandar and became connected to this case or 14 gave any money to this case, you were involved in 15 fighting Scientology. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, you know -- 17 THE COURT: Or 1995. Whatever month it was. 18 THE WITNESS: You know, I wasn't -- 19 Let me try to put this clearly. 20 I was not -- you know, in 1995 -- and maybe 21 through March or so of 1996 -- I was not involved in 22 any crusade against Scientology. I became involved 23 in a crusade after March of 1996. And from that -- 24 that point forward, yes, I was, you know, actively 25 against the Church of Scientology in a significant 0650
1 way. 2 THE COURT: And -- you were using your money to 3 fight the church or fight Scientology or however it 4 is -- however it is you refer to it. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Okay. And so I guess my question 7 to you is -- is -- 8 You are obviously a man of means -- 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: You had your own money to fight 11 Scientology. Why did you need this money? Was it 12 needing more money? The more the better? They had 13 a whole bunch and so you needed more? I mean, I 14 don't know. What's the story here? How much did 15 you need? 16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, first of all, it's 17 not what I needed; it was what was needed to fight 18 Scientology. A lot of money was needed to fight 19 Scientology. 20 THE COURT: But you just told -- you sat in 21 here in court, the first day you took the stand, one 22 of the first words out of your mouth, rather proudly 23 I assumed, was you'd spent $10 million to fight 24 Scientology. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 0651
1 THE COURT: That's a lot of money, Mr. Minton. 2 THE WITNESS: I realize that. 3 THE COURT: To someone like me, who sits here 4 day in and day out, that's a whale of a lot of 5 money. 6 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: So you had $10 million to fight 8 Scientology. 9 I guess what I'm trying to say is -- I mean, 10 not only was -- was money more important than the 11 truth, but money was more important than the truth 12 to a man that had over $10 million of his own money 13 to fight anything he wanted to? 14 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, $10 million -- look 15 at -- look at the mess that I'm in now, after having 16 spent $10 million. $10 million was never enough to 17 fight the Church of Scientology, no matter how good 18 or efficient you were at doing it. And I wasn't 19 that. You know, for any sort of sustained attack -- 20 THE COURT: Are you telling me you were no 21 match for them? 22 THE WITNESS: That's for sure, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: All right. Well, I'm going to get 24 off of this, but it's very clear to me, Mr. Minton, 25 for whatever it's worth -- it is clear to me that if 0652
1 what you're telling me is true -- and that's an if, 2 and I haven't decided that -- but if I am to believe 3 what you are saying about this affidavit, that you 4 were willing to lie -- 5 I mean, I know what it's like for people to lie 6 when they've got somebody there and they're being 7 tortured -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: They're being -- they're being -- 10 you know, there are people that will lie; there are 11 people that will say almost anything if they're 12 being put in physical pain; if they're poor -- if 13 they're poor and they can't provide for their 14 family -- I mean, I've seen it. I've seen it all 15 happen in this courtroom. 16 That surely is not the case. And old 17 Mr. Dandar, sitting down here in Florida, and you 18 are sitting up there in New Hampshire, was hardly a 19 threat, physical or otherwise to you. So what I 20 understand you're saying is the whole purpose was 21 the case, and to get the money into the -- some -- 22 some charitable contribution so you could continue 23 and pursue your fight. All, again, over the money. 24 Now, that's what's clear to me. 25 I mean, I'm sure you don't like me to say that, 0653
1 and I'm sure that's why you like to make it some 2 big, broad -- and paint it with a nicer little 3 brush. And that's fine. And you've done that. But 4 just so you understand, in my mind what you have 5 just said was that the money was more important than 6 the truth. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, something was 8 definitely more important than the truth, because I 9 didn't tell it in that affidavit. 10 THE COURT: All right. Continue on, Counsel. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q In addition to money, what was the other purpose 13 in this litigation, in this wrongful death litigation, as 14 far as you were concerned? 15 THE COURT: He's already said. To attack the 16 church. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q And did you discuss that with Mr. Dandar? You 19 said for the good of the case. Did you have any 20 understanding -- 21 THE COURT: Well, you know, he's already told 22 us -- I didn't get into this until after he 23 discussed the conversation that he had with 24 Mr. Dandar. I mean, he went through the whole 25 conversation before I ever started talking to him 0654
1 about what this thing was all about. 2 MR. FUGATE: Okay, your Honor. 3 Would this be an appropriate time to take a 4 lunch break? Because I'm getting ready to get into 5 some excerpts. 6 THE COURT: I think it would. It's five 7 minutes till 12. I need a little more than just a 8 little lunch break here. I've got a couple calls I 9 have to make. Let's say 1:15. Let's be in recess 10 until 1:15. 11 (A recess was taken at 11:56 p.m.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0655
1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 22nd day of May, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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