Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 656 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 6 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert S. Minton. 17 DATE: May 22, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25
657 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 6 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 7 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 8 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 9 10 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 11 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 12 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 13 Organization. 14 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 15 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 16 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 17 Organization. 18 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 19 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 Attorney for Robert Minton. 21 22 23 24 25
658 1 ALSO PRESENT: 2 Mr. Rick Spector 3 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 4 Mr. Brian Asay Ms. Joyce Earl 5 Ms. Donna West 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
659 1 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate, you may proceed. 2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just handed you a 3 courtesy copy of a memo that I filed, and I have 4 filed one with the clerk and gave one to Mr. Dandar. 5 You don't obviously -- it is not necessary to read 6 it now. I was just calling it to your attention. 7 THE COURT: What is it? 8 MR. FUGATE: It's on the Bar rule, actually, 9 that has been under discussion. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: You may indeed. 13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I say something 14 to you? 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 THE WITNESS: I wanted to revisit where we left 17 off, if I could. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I actually thought about 20 this some last night, and I thought about it more at 21 lunchtime. And I just wanted to try to explain a 22 few more things concerning the motivation 23 involved -- 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 THE WITNESS: -- in telling a lie under oath in
660 1 an affidavit. 2 Mmm, you know, this case was not a Florida 3 case. It wasn't a national case. It was an 4 international case. You know, everywhere that I had 5 traveled in '99, 2000, you know, in Germany and 6 France and meeting with German government officials, 7 French government officials and people in the 8 anticult area in both churches and, you know, 9 private groups, in Germany particularly, you know, 10 the Lisa McPherson case was a case that was 11 something that would damage Scientology beyond 12 anything else that had ever happened before, even 13 going back to, you know, the 1980 or '79 stuff. 14 And -- 15 THE COURT: What was that? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, this is when this former 17 Guardian's Office in Scientology, there were some 18 sort of rogue agents, if you want to call them that, 19 who infiltrated U.S. government offices in 20 Washington -- 21 THE COURT: That is what brought about the 22 arrests and convictions? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And, you know, another thing that
661 1 was very personal to this case, and, you know, I'm 2 not particularly keen to open up myself a lot of 3 times. 4 You know, Lisa McPherson was locked up -- this 5 is what I believe. This is something that happened 6 to me when I was 16 years old, except I was, you 7 know, locked up in a mental institution. And I 8 remember even back in March of '97 the first time I 9 saw the autopsy photographs of Lisa McPherson, you 10 know, the bruises on her hands and arms and the cuts 11 on her hands; it was something that really caused me 12 a lot of personal anguish because the same thing 13 happened to me, you know. I wasn't being -- you 14 know, I was in an institution. 15 And, you know, I remember when I went back to 16 Boston, this was in March of '97, you know, I had 17 something then that I haven't had since, but it was 18 a very serious thing for me and can give you an idea 19 how much this thing impacted me personally. 20 You know, I had what was best described as a 21 panic attack and ended up at Mass. General Hospital. 22 And, you know, this -- this case, as I said, was -- 23 it was something that everybody who was against 24 Scientology thought would be the case that damaged 25 Scientology beyond repair.
662 1 There is no question that the money was an 2 issue in this case, your Honor, and the money, once 3 this organization was damaged beyond repair, was 4 basically to put the nails in their coffin. 5 And I remember carrying picket signs that said, 6 you know, "Wake for Scientology. Funeral to 7 follow." 8 And, you know, what happened, your Honor, is 9 that -- and this is why it is difficult to talk 10 about, is, you know, completely contrary to what I 11 thought I got into this for, you know. I was 12 involved in a lot of hate and bigotry toward 13 Scientology, a lot with a lot of other people, and a 14 lot of those other people were counting on me, 15 because of the money, to put an end to this 16 organization that we all thought was evil. 17 Back in 1998 when I was on an NBC Dateline 18 program, you know, I remember how so many people, 19 including Mr. Dandar, were happy that the concept of 20 Scientology being evil was introduced to 20-odd 21 million people here in this country. 22 Earlier in 1998 there was a national television 23 show in Germany. And in that one, you know, when 24 the German people came here to Florida or came down 25 from New York to do the film -- Mmm -- you know,
663 1 this was one of the occasions where I had the 2 opportunity to bring Mr. Dandar into the story in 3 the Lisa McPherson case. 4 And, you know, your Honor, it's -- it wasn't 5 just about the money. There was a lot of people who 6 counted on the money that I had to help do more than 7 just fight this organization but destroy it. 8 And I'm just saying that this is a complex 9 issue, your Honor, and it's not something that -- 10 you know, that I can say that this case was about 11 the money, for me. It was a lot of other things, as 12 well. 13 And, you know, not only am I ashamed about what 14 I've done with this Court, but, you know, some of my 15 behavior has been reprehensible. And you said it 16 yourself in court the other day, that there was no 17 room for this hate and bigotry. I believe you, your 18 Honor, and I have been wrong to be part of that. 19 And so I just wanted to say that to you to give 20 you a little bit further insight into my mind and 21 why this case and why lying for Ken Dandar or -- you 22 know, with my own free will. You know, Mr. Dandar 23 didn't sit up there and force me to sign that 24 document. I did it of my own free will, your Honor, 25 and I'm sorry I did it. I'm sorry I have told other
664 1 lies in this case. 2 And that is what I just wanted to add. 3 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 4 You may continue. 5 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Well, directing your attention back to 2000, the 8 year 2000, and we have gone over Defense Exhibit 81, but are 9 the folks that are generally listed there, are those a 10 collection of critics that you were working with that you 11 just explained to the Judge about that were all part of LMT 12 and part of what you were trying to do that you have just 13 explained to the Judge? 14 A They were part of -- you know, they were sort of 15 the American -- North American type group, yeah. 16 Q And during this period of time, were you -- I ask 17 you, were you getting awards for your fight against 18 Scientology? You, Mr. Minton? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Had you given any awards to Mr. Dandar with -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- with regard to this case? 23 A Yes. As a representative of FACTNet, he was given 24 the FACTNet Man of The Year Award for his bravery in 25 fighting Scientology.
665 1 Q And fighting Scientology, as you described it, was 2 that the subject of -- or did you have conversations with 3 Mr. Dandar about that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, I had asked you -- and I got myself out of 6 sequence -- but I'm just going to ask you, I placed up on 7 the witness stand there an excerpt of a deposition. And I'm 8 going to ask you if you would just take a look at that and 9 ask if that refreshes your recollection as to the date that 10 you gave the deposition. 11 MR. FUGATE: I'm not going back through it, 12 Judge. Just to point us back in time. 13 A Yes. Yes, May 24, 2000. I recognize that. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q And in that deposition do you recall giving a 16 great deal of testimony under oath about what you understood 17 the agreement with the family and with Mr. Dandar to be 18 about the bulk of the proceeds of the settlement or verdict 19 in the wrongful death case? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And was it after that deposition -- and I think 22 the date there is May 24, 2000 -- was it somewhere 23 thereafter that you had the meeting you described before 24 lunch? 25 A The backtrack meeting?
666 1 Q Yes. 2 A Yes, it was sometime after this deposition. 3 Q Now, in May of -- 4 THE COURT: Is there a 5/4 and 5/24? 5 MR. DANDAR: No. 6 MR. WEINBERG: No. 7 MR. FUGATE: No. It is 5/24. 8 THE COURT: Okay. I think the tab in the book 9 I have said 5/4, but the deposition says 5/24. 10 MR. FUGATE: That could be an error. It's 11 5/24. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q And let me just ask, the deposition, sir, was that 15 being taken by Mr. Moxon, Rick Moxon? 16 A Does it -- it was in this case? 17 Q Uh-huh. 18 A Yes. It was Mr. Moxon. 19 Q And was Mr. Dandar present at that deposition? 20 A He was. 21 Q All right. And after that is when you had the 22 conversation -- I'm not going to ask you to go back through 23 that again -- with Mr. Garko -- Dr. Garko and Mr. Dandar? 24 A Well, it was with Mr. Dandar. Dr. Garko came to 25 the office at the same time.
667 1 Q I'm sorry? 2 A I believe he was present when Mr. Dandar talked 3 about backtracking. I don't think Mr. Garko said anything 4 about it. 5 Q I'm not trying to interject him. I understood he 6 was there. So my question is who was present in this 7 conversation? 8 A I think just those three: Me and Dr. Garko and 9 Mr. Dandar. 10 Q Now, in May -- I put up there 93 -- and I think it 11 is 93E -- the $500,000 UBS check. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Is that the correct number? 14 A 93 -- 15 Q G? 16 A -- G. It looks like a "G." It could be an "E," 17 but -- 18 Q That is my handwriting. 19 Do you recall how you gave that check to 20 Mr. Dandar? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Well, let me ask you this. What is the date of
668 1 the check? 2 A May 1, 2000. 3 Q So that was prior to the deposition that we just 4 discussed in May, May 24, 2000. Correct? 5 A That is correct. 6 Q And at that point in history, can you tell us why 7 you gave -- or why you provided Mr. Dandar with a check that 8 was different than the other checks that you had been 9 providing to him? 10 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 A Well, first of all -- okay, just -- your question 13 first was why this type of check as opposed to any others? 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Uh-huh. 16 A Well, Mr. Dandar said he wanted to be able to hide 17 the amount of money he had from Scientology to take this 18 case to trial. And that was one of the reasons. 19 The second reason was that he wanted to cut back 20 on the payments that he was making to some of his employees. 21 And he mentioned Dr. Garko and Thom Haverty by name. 22 Q What did he say about that, if you recall? 23 A Well, that he was, you know, not going to tell 24 them he had this money, and, you know, say, because he 25 didn't have any money, he was going to have to cut back on
669 1 the monthly retainers or whatever payments he was making to 2 them on a regular basis. 3 And so he asked, "Make sure you don't tell anybody 4 like Dr. Garko or Thom Haverty that you gave me this money." 5 And he asked that -- you know, that the money 6 be -- you know, asked if I could do it in a way that the 7 money couldn't be traced back as having come from me 8 because, again, you know, the whole issue of my financial 9 involvement in the case was something that he wanted to, you 10 know, sweep under the carpet, to avoid the -- the 11 allegations in court that, you know, Minton was putting all 12 this money in as an investment and controlling this case or 13 whatever. 14 There was a lot of allegations from Scientology 15 flying in the court at that time. So he wanted it done in 16 such a way that it wouldn't be known. 17 Q Was there a meeting at which the check was 18 provided to Mr. Dandar? 19 A Yes. There was. 20 Q Where did that take place? 21 A It took place at the -- what was then the Bombay 22 Bicycle Club on Gulf-to-Bay just on the Tampa side of Route 23 19. You know, on the Tampa side of the Clearwater Mall. 24 Q Who selected the site? 25 A Mmm, I believe I suggested it. Mr. Dandar said,
670 1 "Let's meet at a place in between," you know, the office at 2 33 North Ft. Harrison and his office in Tampa. 3 I said, "Okay, well, how about the Bombay Bicycle 4 Club?" 5 He said, "Okay. That works for me." 6 Q Was anybody present when you handed the 93G, 7 $500,000 UBS check, over? 8 A No. Mr. Dandar and I had gone off to a little 9 small bar table in the bar, as opposed to sitting in the 10 restaurant. And we were the only ones in the bar except for 11 a bartender at the bar, who was maybe 12, 14 feet away from 12 where we were sitting. The bar area was 12 or 14 feet away 13 but it was a long bar. 14 Q Is there any question in your mind that he 15 understood the check came from you? 16 A There is absolutely no question in my mind. 17 Q Now -- 18 THE COURT: This is the $500,000 check? 19 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 93G, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Could I have just a minute here? 21 Where is that -- I want to look at the affidavit. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Which one? 23 THE COURT: Mr. Minton's. I got it. 24 THE WITNESS: If I could just add one thing, 25 your Honor.
671 1 THE COURT: You may. 2 THE WITNESS: I mean, obviously there was no 3 doubt that I gave the check to Mr. Dandar. But -- 4 because I physically handed it to him. But there 5 was also no doubt in my mind that he understood, 6 based on his request, that the money was coming from 7 me. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q And did there come a time, after the meeting at 10 LMT with Dr. Garko and Mr. Dandar -- 11 THE COURT: Wait a second. I have got to ask a 12 question here, I guess. 13 MR. FUGATE: Sure. 14 THE COURT: Because I'm a little confused here. 15 I have got -- this little tab I have said 5/4/01 for 16 this deposition, but the deposition date is 5/4/00. 17 MR. DANDAR: 5/24. 18 MR. WEINBERG: 5/24. 19 THE COURT: 5/24/00? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, you indicated this 22 affidavit -- you didn't indicate, but it is signed 23 December 13 of 2000? 24 THE WITNESS: That is right, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: When was it that Mr. Dandar
672 1 indicated to you that you had to back off this 2 agreement? 3 THE WITNESS: Backtrack -- 4 THE COURT: Backtrack. 5 THE WITNESS: -- from the statements about the 6 agreement. Sometime after this deposition. 7 THE COURT: Sometime after this deposition? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Not -- not long after it. 9 THE COURT: You are sure it wasn't before it? 10 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I'm sure. 11 THE COURT: All right. Let me ask you a 12 question. Your deposition, Page 223, beginning with 13 Line 1, "Have you talked to Dell Liebreich about 14 what would happen to the hoped-for proceeds in this 15 case? 16 "Answer: No. 17 "Question: Have you had any discussion with 18 her about money coming to the Lisa McPherson Trust? 19 "Answer: No. 20 "Question: It's never happened? 21 "Answer: No. 22 "Question: Have you talked to anyone in the 23 family about money coming to the Lisa McPherson 24 Trust arising out of the hoped-for proceeds of this 25 case?
673 1 "Answer: No. No. 2 "Question: Have you talked to anyone in the 3 family about the potential proceeds of this case 4 going to a 'anticult' organization? 5 "Answer: No." 6 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I thought in 7 this deposition that I affirmed the agreement. 8 THE COURT: Well, I guess I should ask you, do 9 you recall giving -- being asked those questions and 10 giving those answers? 11 THE WITNESS: Mmm -- 12 THE COURT: Do I have the wrong deposition? 13 MR. DANDAR: You have the right deposition, 14 Judge. 15 MR. FUGATE: The portion that I was referring 16 to is 391, 392, 393 -- Pages 393 through 394. 17 THE COURT: That is very nice, Mr. Fugate, but 18 the pages I'm referring to are Pages 223 -- 19 MR. FUGATE: I understand. I'm just telling 20 you the pages that I handed up were a different part 21 of the deposition. I don't know what you have got 22 there. I just -- 23 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't matter whether you 24 do. It matters whether he does. He said in this 25 deposition dated 5/24/00 there was no deal. No
674 1 agreement. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Lee, here. 3 THE COURT: Continue. 4 Do you recall, sir, those questions and 5 answers? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't. Obviously, if they're 7 in there, I must have said it. 8 THE COURT: It was a long deposition and it's 9 quite possible there is more than one thing said. 10 As a matter of fact, it looks like it was a 11 multi-day deposition, not unlike other things I have 12 seen in this particular case. When you read the 13 entire deposition, you don't always get the same 14 answers to the questions when they're asked five and 15 six different times. 16 THE WITNESS: Right. 17 THE COURT: But that series of questions and 18 that series of answers -- 19 THE WITNESS: I heard you read them. 20 THE COURT: And as I said, I don't know because 21 this is just information that has been provided to 22 me. But here is the front page of that deposition. 23 THE WITNESS: I think it's the same one. 24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'll show you -- 25 THE COURT: Just let me finish this, then you
675 1 can show me whatever you want. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is the same one. 3 THE COURT: I just came across it and I thought 4 I would -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 6 THE COURT: Okay. So you agree that is what it 7 says on that -- that page? 8 THE WITNESS: That is what it says, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Fugate. 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I'll hand up to you 11 the section I was referring to. And I have given it 12 to him. And I'll ask him if he recalls that 13 testimony. 14 MR. DANDAR: Page numbers? 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Here it is. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Do you recall being asked if you had had those 18 discussions about the bulk of the payment or the -- however 19 it is described, the vast amount of the settlement or 20 verdict being provided to the Lisa McPherson Trust, and you 21 indicated that conversation was with Mr. Dandar, not with 22 the family? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And did you indicate -- do you recall stating in 25 that deposition that you had that conversation in 1998 or
676 1 1999 with Mr. Dandar? 2 A Mmm, say that again? I didn't follow you. 3 Q Well, do you -- let me just ask you. Would you 4 take a look at the testimony that I sat up there and just 5 make sure you recall giving that testimony? 6 MR. FUGATE: Rather than read it, Judge. 7 Whatever -- 8 A You mean the whole thing? 9 MR. FUGATE: Well, here, Judge, Page 391, Line 10 18. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q "Question: On January 31, 2000 you appeared on a 13 talk show, 1270 AM WXYT Detroit -- 14 "Answer: Uh-huh. 15 "Question: -- where you said, and I quote, 16 'Family who I have been supporting in the civil lawsuit have 17 agreed that when and if they prevail against the Church of 18 Scientology in this lawsuit, they will donate a very 19 substantial amount of the proceeds of the lawsuit to this 20 organization called the Lisa McPherson Trust." 21 Your answer was: "Correct." 22 Do you recall giving that testimony there? 23 A I do. 24 Q And then I think -- well, "Question: Do you 25 remember saying that?
677 1 "Answer: That's correct. Yes. 2 "Question: So how much have you agreed with them 3 that they will donate to the Lisa McPherson Trust if they 4 prevail in the lawsuit? 5 "Answer: I haven't had any direct discussions 6 with them about it. 7 "Question: Did you -- where did you get this 8 information that they were going to donate a substantial 9 amount of the proceeds of the lawsuit to the Lisa McPherson 10 Trust?" 11 Your answer was: "Mr. Dandar." 12 Do you remember those questions and giving those 13 answers? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Then the question I stopped on, "What year did he 16 tell you that? 17 Line 23, Mr. Dandar: "Answer: '98 or '99." 18 Do you recall that question or that answer? 19 THE COURT: Is that after the question on Page 20 16, "When did he tell you that? 21 "Answer: I don't remember." 22 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge? 23 THE COURT: Same page, Line 16, "Question: 24 When did he tell you that? 25 "Answer: I don't remember."
678 1 MR. FUGATE: It is. 2 THE COURT: Then Line 23: "What year did he 3 tell you that? 4 "Answer: '98 or '99. 5 MR. FUGATE: Then it goes on. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q But, at any rate, were we talking about the same 8 deposition the Court asked you about, and this deposition? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. DANDAR: I object. I think 395 is the most 11 telling of all of it. 12 THE COURT: You can certainly make your point 13 when it is your turn to make argument. 14 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Give me just a minute. 16 MR. FUGATE: Sure. 17 THE COURT: Okay, you may go ahead. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q And so the record is clear, the conversation about 20 the backtracking was a week or two after this deposition 21 that we've just been discussing here? 22 A Well, sometime shortly after, I don't know whether 23 it was a week or two or a day, but it was soon after. 24 Q Were there any other discussions that you can 25 recall now, from that week or two or three period of time,
679 1 up to the time that you got the affidavit that we just 2 discussed before lunch, about the problems with the 3 connection of the Lisa McPherson Trust, your funding and the 4 lawsuit? 5 A I don't remember a specific conversation. But 6 there were general conversations on that subject frequently. 7 Q Were there any conversations wherein there was 8 discussion, and that would be, I'm talking about, 9 conversations with you and Mr. Dandar about trying to stop 10 the Church's inquiry into your funding? 11 A Well, yes. With regards to that check. But that 12 was -- that was earlier in May. 13 Q Well, after the -- after the Plaintiff's -- excuse 14 me -- Defendant's Exhibit 111, the affidavit you indicated 15 that you signed, was executed -- 16 A Right? 17 Q -- did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar 18 about his using that in pleadings to stop discovery? Do you 19 understand my question? 20 A No, I didn't have any discussions about that. 21 MR. FUGATE: We'll go ahead and go to the first 22 video clip. I'm going to show a video clip of the 23 breach deposition and ask him if what he says is 24 accurate. 25 THE COURT: You are not going to do that. You
680 1 are going to ask him questions in court. And if you 2 want to impeach him from a deposition, you may do 3 that. You may not put deposition testimony in 4 without asking him a question and see whether he 5 answers the same way. If he does, you don't use the 6 deposition. If he doesn't, you may impeach him from 7 the deposition. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Do you recall being called on to testify in the 10 breach case in October of 2001? 11 A Yes. I remember that. 12 Q Do you recall, prior to going to that deposition, 13 having any meetings with Mr. Dandar about that deposition? 14 A Mmm, yes. 15 Q Can you tell us what you remember about the 16 meeting? 17 A He had come over to the LMT's office. And we left 18 there in his car. I don't remember whether we were going to 19 dinner or something. But he asked me about the meeting that 20 never happened. That is not my phrase. That was his 21 phrase, "the meeting that never happened." 22 And I think he asked me, "Do you remember -- do 23 you remember the meeting that never happened?" 24 I said no. 25 And he laughed quite vigorously and he said,
681 1 "That's a good answer, you know, remember -- remember that 2 answer." 3 Q Do you remember any other conversation that you 4 had with him before the deposition? 5 A In the breach case? 6 Q Uh-huh. The deposition was October 11 and 12 of 7 2001. Mr. Rosen took the deposition. 8 A You know, I would like to refer to my affidavit 9 because I think there is a lot of dates here that -- that I 10 just want to refresh myself -- 11 Q Why don't I do what the Judge suggested and I'll 12 read you questions and answers and ask you if you recall 13 those questions and answers. Is that -- 14 THE COURT: No, you need to ask him a question 15 and you need to let him answer. And if he answers 16 it differently from the way he answered in the 17 deposition, then you may use the deposition to 18 impeach him. Do not start reading from somebody's 19 deposition. 20 MR. FUGATE: It's his deposition, Judge. 21 THE COURT: I understand that. I don't care 22 whose deposition it is. You don't use a deposition 23 until somebody denies saying something. 24 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 25 Judge, I'm not seeking to impeach him. I'm
682 1 going to ask him if he gave the testimony, was the 2 testimony -- 3 THE COURT: Ask him what testimony he gave. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Do you recall being questioned by Mr. Dandar in 6 the breach deposition? 7 A On cross-examination. Yes. 8 Q Yes? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you remember him asking you about whether or 11 not there was any kind of agreement of any nature, source or 12 kind between the Lisa McPherson Trust and the Lisa McPherson 13 estate? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And do you remember telling him, in essence, there 16 was none whatsoever? 17 A That's right. 18 Q And he asked again, "Are you sure there is no 19 agreement at all?" 20 And your answer was "No." 21 A Right. That is correct. 22 Q Was that answer -- were those two answers true at 23 the time that you gave them? 24 A Not in my mind. 25 Q And does that refer to the agreement that we
683 1 discussed before lunch in terms of you had signed the 2 agreement saying that there was no -- 3 A Signed the affidavit. 4 Q Signed the affidavit saying there was no 5 agreement, and are these questions that were asked of you -- 6 do you recall them being asked of you by Mr. Dandar? 7 A Yes. This was, you know, now the secret 8 agreement. 9 Q Do you remember being asked in that deposition by 10 Mr. Dandar -- 11 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. This still 12 isn't appropriate. 13 THE COURT: I know. It isn't. 14 MR. FUGATE: To ask him if he remembers being 15 asked about a question and giving an answer? 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't know what you 17 were going to say. Go ahead. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Do you remember being asked by Mr. Dandar -- and I 20 won't read the question -- but something to the effect that, 21 "Did you have any input whatsoever in the adding David 22 Miscavige to the lawsuit," and you answering, "No." Do you 23 remember a question like that by Mr. Dandar? 24 A I remember that. 25 Q And an answer "No" by you?
684 1 A I did answer "No." 2 Q Was that true, sir, at the time you gave it? 3 A It wasn't true. 4 Q Do you remember any questions by Mr. Dandar about 5 whether or not you had paid any witnesses in the case, and 6 you answered "No." 7 I think it was qualified, "I'm not talking about 8 plane fares or hotel accommodations, something like that 9 that went into their pocket, he was talking about payments 10 to witnesses in the Lisa McPherson case." 11 And you answered "No." 12 A Yes. I remember that. 13 Q Was that answer true at the time that you gave it 14 in this deposition? 15 A Oh, no. You know, the way I answered it -- 16 THE COURT: What page are you on, Counsel? 17 MR. FUGATE: I was on Page 634 of that 18 deposition, your Honor. 19 A The way I answered it "No" was that, you know, I 20 didn't pay witnesses to give testimony. You know, any -- I 21 didn't tell people to go in and lie about something. 22 That's -- you know, I was obviously paying the witnesses, 23 but -- 24 THE COURT: 634? 25 MR. FUGATE: Yes, Judge. Actually, I read
685 1 from -- or was referring to, for your Honor's 2 purposes, 628 -- Page 628, Page 629, Line 5 through 3 8. Although I didn't ask about it, the same subject 4 matter is covered at 631 and 632. 5 THE COURT: What is the question that you just 6 asked him about regarding the witnesses, paying 7 witnesses? That doesn't seem to be on Page -- 8 MR. FUGATE: 634. 9 THE COURT: Oh. 10 MR. FUGATE: I will go on, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: I'm not sure what his answer was 12 about that. 13 What you are suggesting, Mr. Minton, is that 14 you thought the question was being asked as to 15 whether you were paying somebody to testify in a 16 certain way? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: And -- and is that true today, you 19 did not do that? 20 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I never asked anybody to 21 testify in a certain way. No. 22 THE COURT: So you didn't say to any witness in 23 this case, "I'll give you money if you'll go say X, 24 Y or Z"? 25 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
686 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q During the period of time -- let me skip ahead 6 here -- beginning in October of -- let me get my date, make 7 sure I'm correct -- November of 1997 through February 26, 8 2002 were you aware that Mr. Dandar filed motions to prevent 9 discovery into your finances, sir? 10 A Yes. 11 Q On your behalf? 12 A Right. 13 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Leading. But it's too 14 late to object. 15 THE COURT: Well, I suppose that is something 16 you wanted. To this very day you don't want to 17 answer those questions. Right? 18 THE WITNESS: That's right, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: So if he was doing that, you are 20 not saying now this -- I mean, you wanted him to do 21 this. Right? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I did want him to do it. A 23 lot of times I didn't know about it but I did want 24 him to do it. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
687 1 MR. FUGATE: This will be 119, it will be a 2 composite. 3 THE COURT: 119? 4 MR. FUGATE: 119. Yes. I just have a couple 5 questions about this, Judge. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q This is 119. 8 A Okay. 9 MR. FUGATE: The first one, Judge, I have 10 marked as 119A, is a motion dated November 21, 1997. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Were you aware Mr. Dandar had filed a motion for 13 protective order to prevent you from being deposed about 14 making any payments, which was the original $100,000? 15 A This is November of '97? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Mmm, I remember after the first deposition, I 18 think he said he was going to try to get Judge Moody to put 19 a stop to this. 20 Q And going all of the way to the last one, which is 21 November -- excuse me -- February 26 of 2002, were you aware 22 that Mr. Dandar had filed a motion for protective order and 23 sanctions to prevent the discovery into the Dresdner Bank 24 records? 25 A Yes. I was aware of that. This was -- this was a
688 1 topic of conversation in New Hampshire, the need for 2 Mr. Dandar to do more -- this was Ms. Brooks primarily, you 3 know, advocating this, that he had to do more to protect me 4 from this discovery. 5 Q And was that a part of discussions that you had -- 6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, they are part of the 7 record. I just asked him to look at them for 8 reference sake. I don't know that we need to burden 9 the record with them. They are already in. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Was this part of conversations -- or do these 13 motions reflect conversations about stopping discovery into 14 the funding so the connection in the funding could not be 15 discovered? 16 A That was a large issue, yes. And, you know, I 17 know that there were numerous motions filed about it. 18 Whether I knew about each one at the time, I'm not sure. 19 THE COURT: Was there a ruling on this? 20 MR. FUGATE: Do you want to address that, Rick? 21 MR. MOXON: That was granted, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: The motion for protective order? 23 MR. MOXON: No, motion for protective order was 24 denied, but there were limitations put on. 25 You recall, we had a hearing, and the Court
689 1 signed an order that put some limitations, but it's 2 not been pursued. The subpoena had been withdrawn 3 out in California, so it has not been pursued. 4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, this only had to deal with 5 checks written to me or to my law firm or the estate 6 out of this bank account. It wasn't on behalf of 7 Mr. Minton anywhere. And I don't think -- when they 8 came into court and said, "Oh, we don't want checks 9 to Mr. Dandar," then nothing happened. 10 MR. MOXON: That is not accurate. But, in any 11 event, the subpoena has not issued to Dresdner Bank. 12 THE COURT: Well, I guess I would like to see 13 the order. 14 MR. FUGATE: We'll get it over the break, your 15 Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q In the -- 19 THE COURT: I mean, the truth of the matter is 20 before you had this change of heart and now have 21 decided that, indeed, that there was some sort of an 22 attempt to -- some sort of an illicit, illegal, 23 improper thing going on here, you were trying to 24 protect the Court and the public, and Scientology, 25 in particular, from having access to what your money
690 1 was, weren't you? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, Scientology, particularly. 3 THE COURT: And why was that? 4 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said, your Honor, 5 these -- you know, these things -- I don't know of 6 each and every thing that Mr. Dandar filed in 7 respect to this. Any of these things. I mean, I 8 have seen some of them. 9 THE COURT: Forget that. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 THE COURT: You -- you did not want 12 Scientology, the Church of Scientology, to know 13 where your money was or how much you had, did you? 14 THE WITNESS: Mmm, well, that was certainly an 15 issue for me, yes. You know, from -- you know, once 16 the -- you know, in the whole history of this 17 involvement in this, once Scientology basically 18 turned the legal system -- you know, used the legal 19 system to start coming after me, that was a very 20 uncomfortable time, that is for sure. 21 You know, this is all part of, you know, how 22 they used the litigation to come after me. And, you 23 know, I was very uncomfortable with it, yes, your 24 Honor. 25 THE COURT: And, again, you didn't want them to
691 1 know how much money you had or what bank accounts 2 you had or -- I am not saying there was anything bad 3 in the purpose there; I'm saying there are a lot of 4 people that wouldn't want anybody to know much about 5 their money or their bank accounts or what have you. 6 But you certainly didn't want Scientology to have 7 access to your bank records, did you? 8 THE WITNESS: That's right. 9 THE COURT: And beyond just the fact that most 10 of us just don't want anybody to know our personal 11 business, did you have other concerns? 12 THE WITNESS: Mmm -- 13 THE COURT: Specifically about the Church of 14 Scientology having access to your bank accounts and 15 your bank records and how much money you had? 16 THE WITNESS: That was the principal concern. 17 THE COURT: I mean, you lived with Ms. Brooks 18 at this time, did you not? I mean, during the -- 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks, I'm sure, has told us 23 in court that many of her affidavits were true, and 24 you certainly were a part of the anti-Scientology 25 movement. I don't know if this is true or not, but
692 1 it was certainly believed that Scientology would -- 2 would go after somebody who was against them, right, 3 with everything they had? 4 THE WITNESS: Well, for anybody who was, you 5 know, doing something serious against them, yes. 6 THE COURT: Which you would have been -- 7 THE WITNESS: Classified? 8 THE COURT: -- classified? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. For sure. 10 THE COURT: I mean, Ms. Brooks filed a bunch of 11 affidavits in a bunch of cases suggesting what some 12 of those things would be? 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 THE COURT: You were aware of that. Right? 15 THE WITNESS: You know, I don't think I've read 16 any of her affidavits, to be honest with you -- oh, 17 no, I probably did, back in 1995 I probably read 18 some of them, before I met her. 19 THE COURT: Well, did you have a concern that 20 if the Church of Scientology had access to your bank 21 records, that the Church of Scientology would use 22 that against you with the income tax people? 23 THE WITNESS: Mmm, you know, I didn't believe 24 that the Church of Scientology had the capability to 25 access all of my bank records.
693 1 THE COURT: But they sure did if they got the 2 Court to give them to them? 3 THE WITNESS: Well, Mmm, you know, I didn't 4 believe that that was possible. 5 THE COURT: You didn't believe it was possible 6 for them to come in and ask the Court, and the Court 7 would allow it? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, no, I believed the Court 9 could allow it. But I still didn't think it was 10 possible for them to get them. 11 THE COURT: So is your testimony under oath to 12 me today that you never had a concern regarding the 13 Church of Scientology getting a hold of your money, 14 your bank accounts, how much money you had, or some 15 concern that they would use this against you with 16 the Internal Revenue Service? Is that your 17 testimony? 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, you know, yes, there was a 19 concern about that. 20 THE COURT: Okay. And -- and, in part, that 21 was because of the fact that at least Ms. Brooks has 22 told us that the Church of Scientology would -- did 23 not like people who were out to fight or their 24 enemies? 25 THE WITNESS: That's right.
694 1 THE COURT: And they would use whatever lawful 2 methods they had at their disposal to have you not 3 go after them anymore? 4 THE WITNESS: That's right, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: And since you are still claiming 6 the Fifth Amendment about these issues, then 7 obviously I would assume that that was a genuine 8 concern of yours. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Continue. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, before the next 12 question, do you want to see this order? 13 THE COURT: Yes, please, if I could. 14 Thank you. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Certainly. 16 THE COURT: So this order that I signed, I 17 granted -- or sort of denied -- it's odd because it 18 doesn't really refer to the motion, the motion is 19 for protective order and sanctions. I'm not sure I 20 ever heard that particular motion. 21 MR. MOXON: Well -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'll let Mr. Moxon speak to 23 that. 24 MR. MOXON: We filed a motion for seeking 25 out-of-state -- Mr. Dandar, you know what he did, he
695 1 filed a motion after that when we had given him 2 notice we were going to take the deposition, and 3 then we took it off because we never actually issued 4 the subpoena. So he filed his motion. 5 THE COURT: He filed his motion. But I don't 6 remember hearing this. I'm not saying -- 7 MR. MOXON: It was mooted because we indicated 8 that we had not actually sent the subpoena, we had 9 not served any subpoena on the bank. 10 THE COURT: But in this order, I indicated that 11 if the -- it says if an order issues permitting such 12 records to be released, and if any records are 13 located indicating payments from Robert Minton, 14 Kennan Dandar or to the firm of Dandar & Dandar, 15 that those records be sent directly to this Court. 16 MR. MOXON: Right. 17 THE COURT: In other words, that was the issue 18 as to whether those were going to be released, and I 19 was going to hold them until that could be decided. 20 MR. MOXON: Right, that was during the time of 21 the stay, your Honor, from the 2d DCA. So all those 22 records were being sent to you. In fact, you 23 probably have a bunch of records in your chambers 24 from banks we have never seen. 25 THE COURT: I probably have more stuff in my
696 1 chambers that I don't know what it is than I care to 2 know. 3 MR. MOXON: Okay. 4 THE COURT: Yes, I do have some stuff in my 5 chambers. 6 You may have that back. I don't think I will 7 need it. 8 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Mr. Minton, with regard to the two days of 12 deposition in the breach case of October 11 and October 12, 13 let me ask you this. Did you backtrack in that deposition 14 and back out of the agreement that you had publicized 15 before, et cetera, to your recollection? 16 A I believe it was that one. I -- I think -- I 17 think there might have been -- yes, there was one in 18 September in this case where I think I pled the Fifth 19 Amendment. And then in the October one -- 20 Q The October one, again, would be Mr. Rosen taking 21 the deposition? 22 A Yes. 23 Q The questions I went through with you? 24 A Right, when Mr. Rosen was asking me questions. 25 Q When Mr. Dandar asked you particularly about
697 1 adding Mr. Miscavige and were you participating in 2 decisions, et cetera? 3 A Right. You know, basically, you know, said I 4 misunderstood the communications, you know, and backtracked, 5 you know. 6 Q And was that Mr. Dandar's request? 7 A It was. 8 Q Now, were you aware that Mr. Dandar used the 9 excerpts of your backtracking in that deposition to provide 10 them to this Court in a January hearing? 11 A I -- I know that he used them in several pleadings 12 or motions or something. But, you know, I don't know 13 which -- which dates they were used. But I know that they 14 were used in this Court and the appeals court. 15 Q And the 2d DCA? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Were you aware your affidavit was also used in the 18 Second District Court of Appeals? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Were you aware that Mr. Dandar's affidavit that 21 was up there as 114, I think -- or 113, rather, was also 22 utilized? 23 A I learned about that afterwards. 24 Q And at that time did you feel that was for the 25 good of the case, as you have indicated to Judge Schaeffer?
698 1 A Well, the -- the affidavit was -- that I signed, 2 the false affidavit that I signed, was for the good of the 3 case. And, you know, anything that Mr. Dandar did with them 4 after that, since he's the one that used the term "for the 5 good of the case," you know, I would assume that he thought 6 it was for the good of the case, as well. 7 Q And we've heard the term here in the last couple 8 of days "secret agreement." In fact, I think the Judge 9 asked you, where did it come from. 10 Can you tell us where you understood the term 11 "secret agreement" came from as it has been used in this 12 hearing? 13 A That came from Mr. Dandar. 14 Q And -- 15 A You know, when this affidavit was signed, it 16 was -- or when it was about to be signed, he used the term 17 that, you know, henceforth -- I don't think he used 18 "henceforth," but "From this point on, this will have to be 19 a secret agreement that we don't talk about." 20 Q And did -- when you met with Mr. Rinder and 21 Monique Yingling in April, did you use the term "secret 22 agreement" in your meeting with them? 23 A I believe I did. 24 Q And did -- can you tell us what your impression 25 was of whether they had ever heard of anything like that
699 1 before until you told them? 2 THE COURT: Well now, honestly, what is it you 3 are asking him to say? Did -- I mean, frankly, if 4 they said something or expressed surprise, that is 5 hearsay. What is it that you want from this man? 6 MR. FUGATE: All right. 7 THE COURT: He testified -- 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Were you asked about a secret agreement in that 10 meeting? 11 A No. I wasn't. I volunteered the information. 12 Q All right. 13 A Then I was asked about it. 14 MR. FUGATE: Could I have a moment, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Do you remember a dinner meeting at the Belleview 18 Biltmore with Mr. Dandar attending? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q Can you tell us approximately when that was? 21 A I can look in my check list. You have the checks 22 here. I think it was May of 2001, but I'm always getting 23 May and August mixed up about some of these. 24 Yes, May 25, 2001. 25 Q Do you remember any conversation about your
700 1 testimony that might be upcoming being discussed at that 2 meeting? 3 A In connection with what? 4 Q Well, was there any discussion about you going to 5 jail at that meeting, if you recall? 6 A May 2001? 7 Q Uh-huh. 8 A Oh, yeah. Yeah, there was. Ms. Brooks -- this 9 wasn't the first time this subject of me going to jail came 10 up. It was a question of Mr. Dandar, when Ms. Brooks would 11 press him about not protecting me enough, he -- he said -- I 12 remember once in her office and at this meeting, she was a 13 lot more flabbergasted about it than I was, but he said 14 that, you know, "It doesn't matter to the case if Bob goes 15 to jail." That was -- 16 Q What was your reaction to that? 17 A Well, I'd heard it one time before. As I said, 18 Stacy always reacted more vigorously to it than I did. 19 Q Well, at that point in May of 2001, would you have 20 been prepared to go to jail for the case? 21 A Mmm, I -- it certainly was not high on my list of 22 things to do. No. I mean, it wasn't something I wanted to 23 do. 24 Q And when, if you recall, did you begin to take the 25 Fifth Amendment as to questions about the funding, et
701 1 cetera? 2 A Mmm, well, I -- I think in the latter half of 3 2001. You know, the latter half -- you know, June, 4 whatever. Pretty much as far as I could go with it until 5 Judge Schaeffer ordered me to answer a lot of those 6 questions in the deposition with Mr. Moxon in September. 7 You know, subsequent to that, she ordered me to answer these 8 deposition questions which I pled the Fifth Amendment to. 9 Q Was there any discussion there about any other 10 payments being made by you to Mr. Dandar in the case? 11 A Mr. Dandar needed more money, you know, for the 12 case. I am not sure if this was a question -- no, at that 13 stage it couldn't have been. But he needed more money for 14 the case. And he wanted -- he wanted a check like the last 15 one he got, which was the 500,000 check -- 16 Q Who said that to you? 17 A Mr. Dandar. 18 Q What did you understand that to mean? 19 A Well, that he wanted, you know, a -- a check that 20 couldn't be traced back to me and that he could keep hidden 21 from Scientology and from his employees. 22 Q Did you have any other discussion about that check 23 or about -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- providing a check like that?
702 1 A He -- well, yeah. There was -- you know, I was 2 having some complications at that time and wasn't able to 3 provide him such a check. And he offered to, you know, go 4 anywhere in the world. Europe is what I think he thought 5 was where he was going. But he said, "Panama, Hong Kong, 6 wherever in the world I need to go, I can go pick up the 7 cash, if you want." 8 And, you know, and he wanted more money, 9 preferably right then, and -- but he was willing to wait and 10 go pick up the cash. 11 There had been some delay -- and this wasn't the 12 first time that he was asking for money at this time. 13 Q Time frame, you mean? 14 A In this time frame. Some of these moneys that 15 were routed through Operation Clambake took a lot longer to 16 get here than I had expected, partially because Mr. -- you 17 know, Mr. Heldal-Lund, he received one of these UBS checks. 18 He started a police investigation. And it was a long time 19 before -- you know, he was concerned that he was somehow 20 being set up by Scientology, he thought. 21 Q Was that, in fact, true -- 22 A No, it wasn't true. 23 Q -- with regard to the check? 24 A No. And he took the check, you know, to the 25 Norwegian police. And they instituted an investigation that
703 1 took some time. And eventually, you know, they came back 2 and told him the check is perfectly good, there is no 3 problem with it. They went to the Swiss authorities, who 4 went to the bank. And it took a long time before that 5 arrived. And -- 6 Q When you say "Before that arrived" -- 7 A Before that $300,000 arrived. 8 Q Is that the $300,000 we discussed the other day 9 that came to the LMT? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And that UBS check, was that a check that had come 12 from you to Mr. Heldal-Lund? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar about 15 this being a difficulty in you not being able to provide 16 funds at that point in time? 17 A I didn't tell him what was going on as to why I 18 couldn't deal with a check like he wanted. 19 Q And I think there was testimony from you the other 20 day that another $500,000 or thereabouts came into the LMT 21 and then was written out to you? 22 A Right. And then, you know, I turned around and 23 gave Mr. Dandar $250,000 of that at that meeting at the 24 Belleview Biltmore, I think. 25 Q Do you have the check there you recall writing and
704 1 handing over to him? 2 A Yes. May 25, 2001. 93H. 3 Q And that -- 4 A Now, that check, also, by the way, was written to 5 Ken Dandar, like the previous check for $500,000. 6 Q Not to Dandar & Dandar? 7 A Right. 8 Q What does it say on the "for" or the memo line 9 there? 10 A "McPherson case." And that was because, you know, 11 Mr. Dandar was going to put it in this account where he 12 thought it was safe from Scientology finding out about it, 13 and that was a personal account, not a Dandar & Dandar 14 account. 15 Q Who told you that? 16 A Who told me what? 17 Q That it was a personal account. 18 A Oh, Mr. Dandar told me that. He had told me, you 19 know, back -- going back to 2000, May of 2000, that he had 20 set up an account where Scientology, you know, couldn't find 21 it, it was a personal account, and that is why the $500,000 22 check and then this check were made out to Ken Dandar. 23 Q Let me ask you this question, sir. Having just 24 said that, did you change, in your mind, any of your 25 understanding or agreement as to how you were funding the
705 1 Lisa McPherson case by changing who the checks were made -- 2 made payable to? 3 A No. I was merely trying to accommodate 4 Mr. Dandar's request. 5 Q And did you abide by the request not to talk to 6 Mr. Haverty or Dr. Garko about providing the moneys? 7 A Up until recently, very recently, I did talk to 8 Dr. Garko, after he had already found out about the check 9 for $500,000. 10 Q Would that be at the hearing in front of Judge 11 Baird? 12 A Mmm, it was the first day that Mr. Lirot 13 represented Mr. Dandar in front of Judge Baird. Yes, after 14 that, according to Dr. Garko, Mr. Lirot came to see -- 15 Mr. Lirot, Patricia Greenway, came to me with Dr. Garko and 16 Mr. Dandar where they were, and Lirot briefed them on what 17 had happened at the Baird hearing. 18 And Dr. Garko said that was the first time he had 19 ever heard about this $500,000, or even the $250,000, and he 20 recounted a heated conversation with Mr. Dandar in the 21 parking lot after that meeting was over where he had asked 22 Mr. Dandar, "What do I have to do to get my money from you, 23 hire a lawyer?" 24 And Mr. Dandar, according to Dr. Garko, said, 25 "Michael, there is nothing you can do about it."
706 1 And Dr. Garko explained at the time he was either 2 eight or nine months behind having been paid, and told me 3 that the last time he went off to an out-of-state 4 deposition, in fact one in Nashville, at Vanderbilt, in 5 January I think it was, he had to pay his own airfare 6 because Mr. Dandar told him he didn't have any money. 7 Q And this was a conversation you had with 8 Dr. Garko? 9 A Yes. 10 Q All right. Where was that? 11 A It was at the Radisson Hotel. And Stacy Brooks 12 was there, as well. 13 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Did you, sir, get a subpoena in the wrongful death 17 case that requested that you produce all your check records, 18 all -- evidence of all moneys that you had provided to 19 Mr. Dandar in May of 2000? 20 A Oh -- 21 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this will be marked as 120, 24 Defendant's Exhibit 120. 25 A I would have to look at the document as to when it
707 1 was. It seemed to me there were a lot of these types of 2 things. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q This is marked 120, if you want to add that on. 5 A Okay. 6 Q Do you recall getting a copy of Defendant's 7 Exhibit 120? 8 A Yes. I remember this. 9 Q Actually getting 120? 10 A Excuse me? 11 Q Actually getting the subpoena? 12 A I'm not sure it was actually served on me, but I 13 remember getting it eventually. 14 Q And would you look over on Page 12 -- excuse me, 15 on Page 3, Paragraph 12, the request for "All financial 16 records reflecting the provision of funds by you to any 17 entity or from any entity controlled by you to Kennan Dandar 18 and the firm of Dandar & Dandar"? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, is this the subpoena for bank records that 21 you have testified about that your attorney, Mr. Jonas, had 22 talked to you about, do you recall? 23 A Mmm, do you mean with respect to disclosing all of 24 the checks? 25 Q Yes.
708 1 A I believe it was. Yes. 2 Q Had you had any discussions with Mr. Dandar about 3 what you should do with regard to the $500,000 UBS check 4 with -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- with regard to this subpoena? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And what were those discussions, and if you can 9 tell us when and where were they? 10 A Mmm, well, the -- the discussion was basically to 11 "concentrate on the amount of checks you have written -- or 12 concentrate on the checks you have written, you know, 13 personal checks. You know, your name is not on this check, 14 you know, don't even mention it." 15 Q And in a deposition in this case, specifically a 16 deposition taken on May 24, 2000, were you asked about 17 checks that you had written and given to Mr. Dandar? 18 A I think I was asked about the total amounts of 19 money. 20 Q Do you recall what you testified to as the total 21 amount given to Mr. Dandar as of May of 2000 -- May 24 of 22 2000? 23 A Well, I think I said a million-fifty. 24 Q Was that accurate? 25 A No, it wasn't, it didn't include the $500,000.
709 1 And I think, just from my recollection there, the day after 2 that, I gave him another check. But, of course, that wasn't 3 part of that deposition. 4 Q And was Mr. Dandar present at this deposition? 5 A Was -- it was in this case. Correct? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Yes. I think he was always present at my 8 depositions in this case. 9 Q And was that testimony truthful when you gave it 10 on May 24, 2000? 11 A It was off by $500,000. It wasn't true. 12 THE COURT: And your testimony to this Court, I 13 guess, if I understand you, is that the only reason 14 why you did this is -- the only reason why you lied 15 here again under oath is because Mr. Dandar asked 16 you to? 17 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: You didn't have anything to do with 19 this, you didn't care if Scientology knew that you'd 20 done this little UBS transaction and given $500,000 21 more dollars in this fashion to Mr. Dandar at all. 22 Is that your testimony? 23 THE WITNESS: That is my testimony. In fact, 24 you know, there were other checks like that that 25 were deposited into my own account. You know, there
710 1 were other checks like that that were given to 2 Courage Productions with respect to the movie The 3 Prophet. 4 MR. FUGATE: I'm about to move into that, your 5 Honor, if that -- 6 THE COURT: I don't know if I'm going to let 7 you. I don't know what in the heck that has to do 8 with this case. 9 MR. FUGATE: I think that it will take me maybe 10 five or six minutes to go through and I think you'll 11 understand exactly what it has to do with these 12 moneys that have gone in here. 13 THE COURT: All right. That is about what you 14 have got, five minutes to convince me this is 15 relevant -- 16 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 17 THE COURT: -- about some movie that nobody 18 ever saw. 19 MR. FUGATE: It's not the movie, Judge. It is 20 the funding that I think the Court should be aware 21 of. 22 THE COURT: Well, if the issue is whether or 23 not he funded the movie, I know he did. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, if you give me my 25 five minutes, I think I can tie it up.
711 1 THE COURT: Well, your clock is running, 2 Counselor. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Did you have a contract for Courage Productions 5 and the funding of the movie The Prophet? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: You may. 9 MR. FUGATE: Will this be 121? 10 THE CLERK: Yes. 11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, this is 121. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. FUGATE: And may I stand by the witness, 14 your Honor, because I only have -- 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q I'm showing you a copy of what has been marked as 18 Defendant's Exhibit 121. And I'm going to ask you if you 19 would quickly look at it and see if that appears to be an 20 executed contract for Courage Productions. 21 A Yes. I see my -- 22 Q Do you see your signature? 23 A I see my initials, my signature. Yes. 24 Q Now, I'm going to leave that up there with you and 25 ask you, is there a schedule of payments on that?
712 1 A Yes, there is. 2 Q And what is the schedule of payments? 3 A 157 -- you don't want me to read all these 4 numbers, right? 5 Q No. 6 A No? Well, there is a schedule of about 7 $2.5 million worth on Page 18 in Exhibit B of payments that 8 are necessary to fund this movie. 9 Q And who are the two partners in Courage 10 Productions, according to this agreement? 11 A Peter Alexander and myself. 12 Q Peter Alexander is one of the members of the LMT 13 advisory board, is that right? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q He's a witness in the wrongful -- 16 THE COURT: How many times do I have to hear 17 this, Counsel? 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Well, let me ask you this, sir. The investor is 20 who? 21 A Me. 22 Q You are the investor? 23 A Right. 24 Q How much money did you invest in Courage 25 Productions in the making of -- purportedly in the making of
713 1 The Prophet? 2 A The full amount, about $2.4 million -- 3 $2.5 million, rounded off. 4 Q And did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar 5 about whether or not you should invest in the movie The 6 Prophet? 7 A Mmm, yes. 8 Q Can you tell us about those discussions? 9 A Well, his first concern was to "Make sure you 10 don't spend all your money on this so there is some left for 11 me." 12 Secondly, that he was interested in this film 13 being widely distributed, generating negative publicity 14 about Scientology, and having an influence here in this 15 local area as far as the jury pool is concerned. 16 Q And on the schedule of payments here, do you see a 17 payment of $500,000 that is required under the terms of the 18 contract? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And do you see I have just handed you -- 21 MR. FUGATE: Madam Clerk, it is 122? 22 THE CLERK: Yes. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q -- what has been marked for identification as 25 Exhibit 122?
714 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you recognize a copy of another UBS check? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And is this a copy of a UBS check that you caused 5 to be issued to Courage Productions? 6 A That is correct. 7 Q And is it the same sort of check that was given to 8 Mr. Dandar in 93G? 9 A 93G was the $500,000? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Yes. 12 Q The same year? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Were all of the payments that totaled $2.4 million 15 and some dollars made to Courage Productions by you? 16 A Yes, they were. 17 Q And was that fact known to Mr. Alexander and 18 Ms. Greenway? 19 A Yes, it was. I haven't yet been accused of the 20 fat man having financed this movie. 21 Q I'm sorry? 22 A I haven't yet been accused that the fat man 23 financed this movie. 24 Q There is no question you financed this movie, you 25 provided all of the funds, and part of the funds you
715 1 provided came from UBS checks as the ones that went to 2 Mr. Dandar? 3 A Approximately 2 million of the $2.5 million came 4 from UBS checks. 5 Q Who did you deliver the UBS checks, as well as the 6 other checks, to? 7 A Either Mr. Alexander or Ms. Greenway, either by 8 hand or by courier or by messenger from Clearwater to Tampa. 9 Q And is that the same Ms. Greenway -- is 10 Ms. Greenway here in the courtroom today? 11 A Yes, I think she just walked in. She's the lady 12 behind Mr. Dandar in -- 13 THE COURT: Why do I care about that? I know 14 who Ms. Greenway is. 15 MR. DANDAR: I'll object. It seems they 16 choreograph their questions. 17 THE COURT: I know they do. And it makes 18 absolutely no sense to me. I can only assume they 19 must be doing this for some appellate record because 20 it makes no difference to me. It is a public 21 courtroom. Anyone can come in. Ms. Brooks has been 22 sitting back there all this time, too, as a courtesy 23 of ours. So -- 24 MR. FUGATE: I merely asked if he can identify 25 her.
716 1 THE COURT: Is there any question that he can? 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Is that the same Ms. Greenway you delivered some 4 of these checks to? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now -- 7 THE COURT: Did you tell the Church of 8 Scientology about any of these checks? 9 THE WITNESS: Mmm, not until -- 10 THE COURT: Until your deal? 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, there isn't any deal. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Well, not until your change 13 of heart? 14 THE WITNESS: No. There is no deal. 15 THE COURT: Did you tell the Church of 16 Scientology about this check any more than you told 17 them about the other $500,000 check, until you had 18 your change of heart? 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 THE COURT: You still didn't want them to know 21 about either one of these checks, did you? 22 THE WITNESS: Mmm -- you know, your Honor -- 23 THE COURT: That is why this is irrelevant. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge -- 25 THE COURT: Yes, unless, of course, the Church
717 1 of Scientology somehow got their hands on one of 2 these two checks. Did they? 3 THE WITNESS: First time I believe they saw any 4 of these checks is after I gave them copies of 5 these. 6 THE COURT: So you weren't showing the Church 7 of Scientology your financial business, no matter 8 who it was you were giving it to, right? 9 THE WITNESS: I wasn't showing anybody. 10 THE COURT: And you didn't want the Church of 11 Scientology to know anything about these UBS checks 12 or where the money came from for you to get these 13 checks, did you? 14 THE WITNESS: I didn't want anybody to -- 15 THE COURT: You particularly didn't want the 16 Church of Scientology to know because of your fear 17 of the IRS, right? And if that is not true, say no. 18 THE WITNESS: No. No, your Honor, as I told 19 you, you know, the IRS was a concern. 20 THE COURT: So what is the relevance of this? 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Was there -- are you aware that there was a motion 23 to quash the subpoena for funding of Courage Productions to 24 prevent disclosure of the finances of -- or your 25 participation in financing the movie filed by Mr. Alexander
718 1 and Ms. Greenway by Luke Lirot in this case? 2 A I learned about it, yes. I don't think I knew it 3 at the time. 4 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 MR. FUGATE: This will be 123. 7 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection. 8 All this is irrelevant. You can proffer it and you 9 can make your record. It is irrelevant. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor -- 11 THE COURT: The objection has been sustained. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Could I speak for the record 13 then? The relevance is there has been a question 14 raised, by both the Court yesterday, and by 15 Mr. Dandar throughout, that he didn't know -- or 16 that the source of the funds -- or some question as 17 to whether the source of the funds or the $500,000 18 check and the $250,000 check is really Mr. Minton. 19 And what this check here and other checks that 20 went to Courage Production would tend to indicate is 21 that, in fact, this is Mr. Minton's money. 22 And so that is absolutely relevant to the 23 determination as to whether or not these checks that 24 were given to Mr. Dandar were Mr. Minton's money. 25 THE COURT: Wait a minute. These checks
719 1 written to this Courage Productions weren't provided 2 to Mr. Dandar. 3 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor, Mr. Minton -- 4 the question was is this Mr. Minton's money. I 5 think that it was fairly obvious, it should have 6 been to Mr. Dandar, it was Mr. Minton's money. 7 But the Court had a question, and the fact as 8 to whether, really, the UBS money is Minton's money 9 or somebody else's money, and here is yet another 10 example in 2000 and 2001 where Mr. Minton used UBS 11 bank checks -- 12 THE COURT: Mr. Minton is going to provide us 13 the source of that. You didn't need to help him out 14 here. He said he would provide them. And I expect 15 it to be provided. 16 So what does this have to do with it, unless 17 Mr. Dandar saw these checks? Now, if you can prove 18 that, it has some relevance to this hearing. 19 Otherwise, it does not, Counselor. 20 MR. WEINBERG: People at LMT saw the checks. 21 Ms. -- 22 THE COURT: Very nice. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Ms. Greenway, who was working 24 with Mr. Dandar, saw the checks. 25 THE COURT: If you can establish Mr. Dandar saw
720 1 the checks, there is some relevance to this hearing. 2 If you cannot, there is not. Make your record, 3 proffer it -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I'm doing. 5 THE COURT: Or it is irrelevant. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm making a record. 7 THE COURT: You are not. You are making 8 argument to the Court. He gets to make the record. 9 Hurry through your proffer. You have about two more 10 minutes. 11 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: I'm not going to waste my time. 13 This is about the ninth or tenth day. I ruled it is 14 irrelevant. Do what you have to do. Make it quick. 15 Move on. 16 MR. FUGATE: I'll make it quick, Judge. 17 The lawyer that represented Courage Productions 18 and Patricia Greenway and Peter Alexander on the 19 21st of February, 2002 is Mr. Luke Lirot. 20 The hearing and arguments that took place 21 before Judge Beach on the motions for protective 22 order and ultimately on the protective order that 23 was granted were in Mr. Dandar's presence. 24 Judge Beach found the average person viewing 25 The Prophet could view it as a parody on the Church
721 1 of Scientology but because they, meaning Mr. Lirot, 2 Patricia Greenway -- and I have a copy of that 3 order, if the Court would like to see it. 4 THE COURT: I don't care what Judge Beach 5 ruled. I asked you to give me the movie. I know 6 quite a bit about the Church of Scientology now, 7 thanks to this case, and there is nothing wrong with 8 that. I'm happy to know more about a church in my 9 community. Let me see the movie and I'll tell you 10 whether I think it has anything to do with this 11 case. It hasn't been provided yet. 12 MR. FUGATE: Well -- 13 MR. MOXON: Judge, your Honor, we don't have 14 the movie. The movie would be provided by 15 Mr. Dandar's clients. 16 THE COURT: You don't have it? 17 MR. MOXON: No. 18 MR. FUGATE: No. 19 THE COURT: You have never seen it? 20 MR. FUGATE: We have a canned clip -- 21 MR. MOXON: It was shown publicly in 22 Clearwater. 23 THE BAILIFF: Time out. One at a time, please. 24 MR. FUGATE: The answer to your question, 25 Judge, we have a clip of Mr. Dandar appearing in the
722 1 movie as an FBI agent, which we can play for you if 2 you would like to see it, that was the subject of a 3 letter from Mr. Lirot to Mr. Minton asking 4 Mr. Minton to take that clip down from the LMT 5 website. 6 And the only significance or relevance, as far 7 as you are concerned, to this proceeding that I view 8 and I see it is relevant to your Honor is this was 9 another effort -- 10 THE COURT: You know, Counselor, you only get 11 to make one pitch. When one stands up and makes the 12 pitch, you are done. One lawyer. I'm not hearing 13 from two of you. You lost. And you are to move on. 14 I would like to see the movie. If I don't see 15 the movie, I'm going to rule it has nothing to do 16 with the Church of Scientology because I have no 17 idea what it has to do with. How is it you got this 18 clip of Mr. Dandar? 19 MR. FUGATE: The clip was on the LMT website, 20 and it was publicly available to anybody that went 21 on the website. And it was downloaded off the 22 website. 23 Mr. Lirot wrote a letter to Mr. -- amazingly, 24 he wrote a letter to Mr. Minton saying, you know, 25 "You can't put those clips on. We want that clip
723 1 and other clips --" I think two or three other clips 2 on there "-- taken off because you are violating the 3 trademark of the movie and, you know, stop. And, by 4 the way, how about buying out Mr. Alexander's share 5 of the movie." 6 The relevance to me is that Mr. Lirot -- 7 THE COURT: Are you now doing what I just told 8 you not to do? 9 MR. FUGATE: I thought I was answering your 10 question. 11 THE COURT: We had Mr. Weinberg make an 12 argument. One or the other of you will make the 13 argument. Not both of you. He already said why he 14 thinks it has relevance. I overruled it. You don't 15 get a second turn. Move on. 16 MR. FUGATE: I was answering -- and we have the 17 clip that was -- 18 THE COURT: I don't want to see the clip. I 19 just ruled it is irrelevant. 20 MR. FUGATE: Okay. To answer your question, 21 Judge, if I may, we do not have the movie. We don't 22 have access to the movie. 23 THE COURT: I understood you didn't have the 24 movie. If you don't have the movie, then I suppose 25 I can't see the movie. I guess you cannot prove
724 1 then, if you think it is part of your proof, that 2 this movie has anything to do with the Church of 3 Scientology. If it is your burden of proof and you 4 don't have it, you can't prove it. 5 Please move on. That even means it is less 6 relevant. 7 MR. FUGATE: May we take our break? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. FUGATE: I'll reorganize my presentation 10 for you. 11 THE COURT: What is to reorganize? You just 12 skip past that and get on to the next subject. 13 MR. FUGATE: That is true. 14 THE COURT: So what time did we start? 1:30? 15 THE BAILIFF: 1:15. 16 THE COURT: 1:15? Okay, it's time. We'll be 17 in recess for twenty minutes. 18 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:45 to 3:05 p.m.) 19 THE COURT: All right, you may proceed. 20 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, may I approach the 21 witness? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 MR. FUGATE: For one last -- oh, I had it open. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I changed it around. 25 MR. FUGATE: The Courage --
725 1 THE WITNESS: The contract. I'm sorry. 2 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. I had it. 3 Judge, if you'll turn to Page 15 of the Courage 4 contract, I just have one question to complete my 5 proffer. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Do you see there your name with an address that 8 has been lined out -- 9 A Yes. 10 Q -- in the Courage contract? 11 A Right, on Page 15. 12 Q What address was lined out? 13 A 33 North Ft. Harrison Avenue, Clearwater, Florida. 14 Q And what address is that? 15 A It was added, my home address, in Sandown, New 16 Hampshire. 17 Q No. What address was Ft. Harrison? 18 A That was the Lisa McPherson Trust address. 19 Q Do you know, sir, why that address was crossed out 20 of the Courage Productions' contract? 21 A Mmm, I think because I wanted my legal domicile 22 address in there. 23 MR. FUGATE: Okay. That is all of the 24 questions I have about that, Judge. 25 THE COURT: All right.
726 1 MR. FUGATE: Now, Judge, I'm going to ask you, 2 it is Exhibit 49 to the memorandum of law and fact, 3 it is the E-Mail from Mr. Merrett to Mr. Dandar, if 4 I could approach the witness. I think you have it. 5 THE COURT: I do. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q I'm going to ask you if you have seen what is 8 Exhibit 49 to the memorandum of law and fact before, sir? 9 A Yes, I have seen it. 10 Q And how did you come to see that? 11 A Well, I distinctly remember seeing it introduced 12 in Judge Baird's court. But I believe I'd seen it before, 13 about the time it was sent. 14 Q Did you receive a copy of it from either 15 Mr. Dandar or Mr. Merrett? 16 A Not Mr. Dandar. But Mr. Merrett probably, or 17 Stacy Brooks, who he might have given a copy to. 18 Q Had you given any instructions to Mr. Merrett to 19 notify Mr. Dandar about Mr. Prince's status? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What were those instructions? 22 A That Jesse was going to drop out as an expert 23 witness. 24 Q And whose decision was that? 25 A Stacy Brooks' and mine.
727 1 Q And approximately what is the date of that E-Mail? 2 A August 24th. 3 Q And prior to August 24th of 2001, what was the 4 last check or funds that you had provided to the Lisa 5 McPherson case, do you recall? 6 A That -- 7 Q 93H, actually? 8 A That $250,000 check in May of 2001. 9 Q At the Belleview Biltmore? 10 A Correct. 11 Q We already heard testimony about that. 12 A Right. 13 Q Now, after that -- first of all, did you instruct 14 Mr. Prince that he should remove himself from the case, the 15 Lisa McPherson case? 16 A Yes, both Stacy Brooks and I did. 17 Q All right. And were you aware that Mr. Dandar had 18 filed a motion for extreme sanctions and penalties claiming 19 that he was not going to testify because of pressure of 20 Scientology? 21 A This was the one where Jesse admitted to drug use. 22 Q You are aware -- 23 A Where there was an affidavit that was supporting 24 that. Yes, I'm aware of that. 25 Q Now, in August of 2001, were you --
728 1 THE COURT: Are you aware that same motion 2 accused the Church of Scientology of setting him up 3 improperly? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: That was, I guess, a two-fold 6 motion. And the sanctions, if you wanted monetary 7 sanctions, was because Mr. Prince alleged he was 8 afraid to testify and was going to withdraw, as I 9 recall. 10 By the way, I asked for that whole transcript. 11 And what I got was sort of some argument at the end. 12 But I -- do you remember I'd asked you, I think, for 13 that whole transcript? 14 MS. WEST: I sent you the whole transcript. 15 THE COURT: No, you didn't, at least I got just 16 toward the end. I was looking for the whole thing. 17 MS. WEST: Okay. 18 THE COURT: I may not need it. I just am 19 trying to do an order on that, and I thought if I 20 had the whole transcript -- 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. 22 MR. FUGATE: I'm not going to argue about it, 23 Judge. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Had you sent a message to Mr. Dandar that you
729 1 weren't interested in funding the litigation any more then 2 in August of 2001? 3 A Yes. Through Mr. Merrett. 4 Q Did you get any E-Mails from Mr. Dandar requesting 5 your help? 6 A Yes. The only one that I -- or the first one that 7 I still had was in December of 2001, I believe. 8 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the clerk? 9 THE CLERK: 124. 10 MR. FUGATE: This is 124, Judge, marked for 11 identification. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q I ask you to take a look at Defendant's 124 and 14 ask you if you can identify this copy of an E-Mail? 15 A Yes. That is the one I referred to. This was an 16 E-Mail from Mr. Dandar to me. 17 Q And the date is? 18 A I'm sorry, December 17, 2001. 19 MR. FUGATE: I move it into evidence, your 20 Honor. 21 THE COURT: Any objection? 22 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 23 THE COURT: It will be received. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Did you have any telephone communication about the
730 1 message, "Help is needed now. Is there any hope at all"? 2 THE COURT: Can somebody tell me what the 3 date -- I see all kinds of things -- is the date 4 December 17, '01? 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 MR. FUGATE: "Message date" (indicating). 8 A I'm sorry, your question was did I have a 9 telephone conversation with anyone about this message? 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Uh-huh. If you recall? 12 A I don't recall. 13 Q Did you respond to this, do you recall? 14 A No, I didn't. 15 Q Did you receive another E-Mail from Mr. Dandar 16 suggesting a meeting to discuss funding? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. FUGATE: May I approach again, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: You may. I know that first E-Mail 20 is in this book but I didn't pull it out. Did you 21 say that was dated 8/24/01, the E-Mail from 22 Mr. Minton -- or from Mr. Merrett? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is 8/24/01. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. 25 MR. WEINBERG: It is Exhibit 49 in the book.
731 1 THE WITNESS: This is a copy of it, your Honor, 2 if you want to see it. 3 THE COURT: I got it. I just didn't pull it 4 out. 8/24/01? All right. 5 MR. FUGATE: This is what? 6 THE CLERK: 125. 7 MR. FUGATE: This will be marked for 8 identification, your Honor, as Exhibit 125. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q I show you what has been marked for 11 identification, Mr. Minton, as Defendant's Exhibit 125. 12 MR. FUGATE: Ken, do you have a copy of that? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Can you identify that, sir? 16 A Yes, this is an E-Mail message from Mr. Dandar to 17 me dated January 10, 2002. 18 Q There is a whole bunch of numbers, letters and 19 symbols on it. Can you tell us what that is all about? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, about -- just below the 21 middle of the page you see where -- your Honor, 22 where it says "Begin Pgp message"? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: The rest down to the next page 25 where it said "End Pgp message," that is what is
732 1 called an encrypted message that was utilizing a 2 software package called "Pgp." 3 So the message itself looked like this part 4 that just said "Begin Pgp message" and "End Pgp 5 message." Then in order to read the message -- 6 well, when Mr. Dandar sent it to me he encrypted it 7 to a public key -- a public encryption key of mine 8 which he had, which is also on the Internet for 9 anybody to download if they want to send me an 10 encrypted message. So when you receive the message, 11 you type in, you know, your own personal pass phrase 12 relative to that message and decrypt it. 13 And what is below the "End Pgp message" is the 14 result of the decryption. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Can you tell us where that is and what it is? 17 A What do you mean, where? Well, it's below where 18 it says "End Pgp message." 19 Q Is that the thing in English there, "National 20 Vanderbilt Marriott"? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. FUGATE: Let me ask you this -- I move 125 23 in, based on that identification, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Any objection? 25 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
733 1 THE COURT: It will be received. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q The part in English which says "1-18," and a 4 number, "Friday night only," what was that, if you know? 5 A Mr. Dandar had called me, prior to this message, 6 to say that he wanted to meet with me in Nashville when he 7 was doing a deposition there. And, you know, then he sent 8 me this message to say that he booked a hotel room for me in 9 Nashville. 10 And this was the reservation number with the 11 Marriott for -- for the Nashville Vanderbilt Marriott Hotel. 12 Q Did you have any conversation about what that 13 meeting was to be about? 14 A Money for the wrongful death case. 15 Q Do you remember anything other than that? Any 16 other specifics in the conversation with you and Mr. Dandar? 17 A Mmm, well, that, you know, he really needed money 18 now. And, you know, I needed to ante up, basically. 19 Despite the previous communication with Merrett that, you 20 know, that I didn't intend to provide any more, he was still 21 anxious to get more. And I -- you know, I refused to go to 22 Nashville to meet with him. 23 Q Had there been -- 24 A Sorry. Nashville was my home town where my family 25 lives, still. And, you know, if I were going to go there, I
734 1 wouldn't have needed a hotel reservation, anyway. 2 Q Is this one that had been provided for you -- or 3 this communication is one that had been provided for you, I 4 take it? 5 A The communication was to say, "Mr. Dandar, I made 6 you a reservation at National Vanderbilt Marriott," which is 7 where he was going to stay. 8 Q Did you go to Nashville? 9 A I didn't. 10 Q So no meeting took place? 11 A No. Right. 12 Q Now, prior -- or in this same period of time -- 13 THE COURT: I'm not sure what you were asking. 14 You weren't asking him if this had anything to do 15 with that telephone he was provided, were you? 16 MR. FUGATE: No. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 MR. FUGATE: I was asking him if this was a 19 reservation, did he go, was there a meeting, and 20 what was the purpose as he understood it, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Were you aware that in September of 2001 -- 24 THE COURT: So just because I don't know 25 anything about dealing in these codes or these
735 1 encryptions, all this from the middle of Page 1, all 2 that hieroglyphics, for lack of better word, all 3 this, to the quarter of the Page 2 where it said 4 "End Pgp message," again hieroglyphics, that doesn't 5 say anything? Nobody knows -- 6 THE WITNESS: You know, nobody can read it 7 unless they have the key -- the keys to which the 8 message is encrypted to. 9 THE COURT: Well, this little tiny little 10 two-liner here we're talking about, is -- so that 11 is -- that comes out like that -- 12 THE WITNESS: When you decrypt it, yes. 13 THE COURT: When you decrypt it. So all this 14 stuff is just these two little lines? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. The way this 16 pgp thing works is if you have a long message, it 17 will actually reduce it by about half. But, you 18 know, there is a minimum size that the pgp 19 encryption key uses, so even those two lines turn 20 out to be all that stuff. 21 THE COURT: Okay. You learn something every 22 day. 23 MR. FUGATE: I didn't know what it was, so ... 24 THE COURT: Well, now you learned something 25 today, too.
736 1 THE WITNESS: I mean, I only copied that just 2 to give the completeness -- 3 THE COURT: Sure. 4 THE WITNESS: -- of what that message was. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Did you provide, by the way, these two E-Mails, 7 124 and 125, to the Church since March -- or April, I guess, 8 of 2002? 9 A Sometime, you know, after April 10, I believe -- 10 well, in fact, you can see on that -- the date on there is 11 the message -- you know, I looked on my computer down here, 12 you know, my laptop I carry with me. And the date this is 13 decrypted again, other than the original decryption date, is 14 April 25. So sometime soon after April 25 I would have 15 given that. 16 Q And in the period of time in August and September, 17 jumping back, of 2001, were you aware that there had been a 18 motion to compel your answers to the fifth amended -- or to 19 the questions that you took the Fifth Amendment to in your 20 deposition in this case? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And did you understand that there was going to be 23 a proceeding taking place that may or may not require you to 24 have to answer those questions? 25 A I didn't know about one that may not require me to
737 1 answer them. 2 Q You thought -- 3 A I knew about one that I was going to have to 4 answer them. 5 Q Now, in January/February of 2002 did you have any 6 other telephone meetings where Mr. Dandar requested that you 7 travel somewhere to meet with him? 8 A Yes. He was going to the Cayman Islands for a 9 vacation, I believe, with his wife, maybe his family, too. 10 I don't think he said whether his family was going or not. 11 But, yes, he wanted me to come down to the Cayman 12 Islands, I think it was the Wednesday of the week he was 13 going to be down there. 14 Q Do you recall if that was January, February, of 15 2000? 16 A I think it was early February. 17 Q Did he make any requests you provide him with 18 funds at that meeting? 19 A Well, the whole idea of coming down there was to 20 talk about the additional funds needed for the case, which, 21 you know, in December and January that I hadn't done 22 anything about yet. 23 Q Did you go to the Cayman Islands and meet with 24 him? 25 A I didn't. He called after he got to the Cayman
738 1 Islands to tell me -- he might have told me before he went, 2 I'm not sure, the name of the hotel I should book in the 3 Caymans if I was going to come down there. 4 I didn't take that call, it was on an answering 5 machine. And, you know, I didn't return the call. 6 Q Was there any suggestion or request you provide 7 funds to Mr. Dandar in the Cayman Islands? 8 A Yes. He suggested that I could transfer funds to 9 him. This was before he went down there. That, you know, 10 if it was easier for me, I could just transfer money to him 11 down in the Cayman Islands. 12 Q Did he give you any instructions as to where to 13 transfer the money? 14 A No. I told him, you know, I'm -- you know, I'm 15 still debating the whole issue whether to do any more money. 16 And so it wasn't -- you know, it wasn't an issue. It wasn't 17 something that was imminent from me. 18 Q There did come a time when you had a meeting to 19 discuss funds with Mr. Dandar, though, correct? 20 A It was a more broad meeting but, yes, the subject 21 of funding was clearly the central focus. 22 Q Well, let's have you tell us about that now. That 23 would be in February of 2002? 24 A This -- this would have been -- are you talking 25 about meeting, or phone call, did you say? There was a
739 1 phone call. 2 Q I said did you have a meeting. Was there a phone 3 call that led up to you -- 4 A Yes, there was a phone call leading up to it. You 5 know, I think I said to Mr. Dandar, "Look, you know, I'm not 6 planning to travel anywhere, but if you want to come up and 7 talk about it in New Hampshire, you can." 8 Q And were there any other discussion about the 9 meeting, who would attend, how it would be conducted? 10 A Well, once a time was set for the meeting, and I 11 believe -- just let me look at my calendar here -- I believe 12 it was set for the 23rd and 24th of February, but -- yes, 13 that was the Saturday and the Sunday, the 23rd and 24th of 14 February. 15 Q Was there any discussion as to who would attend 16 the meeting? 17 A Well, the first discussion was -- you know, Stacy 18 was there, anyway. And so Mr. Dandar was going to come. 19 Then the next day he called back and he said, "Do 20 you mind if I bring Michael Garko?" 21 And I told him, you know, "No problem." 22 Q And did Michael Garko come to the meeting? 23 A He did. Mmm -- 24 Q Go ahead, I'm sorry. 25 A There was another communication that -- that --
740 1 where I told Mr. Dandar, prior to him coming up, that with 2 Garko there, it would be more complicated to discuss the 3 money issues. 4 Q What do you mean by that, sir? 5 A Well, Dr. Garko was one of the people that 6 Mr. Dandar didn't want to know about, you know, these 7 moneys. And so it would be more complicated with Dr. Garko 8 around, to talk about it. 9 Q What did Mr. Dandar say? 10 A He said, "You know, let's just phrase this -- 11 couch this in the terms of, you know, overseas investors, 12 you know, your friends," or I think he said Fred, too, Fred 13 was -- 14 Q Fred? 15 A Fred was Mr. Dandar's nickname for me. That -- 16 you know, as the source of like the UBS checks. 17 Q When did that nickname come to be, if you recall? 18 A I don't remember exactly when, but it was -- I 19 remember it was commonly used by Mr. Dandar whenever we had 20 any communication, certainly after August of 2001, but I 21 believe before then, as well. I just don't remember when it 22 started. 23 Q And what did you understand Fred to mean in those 24 conversations? 25 A Me -- stroke -- overseas money.
741 1 THE COURT: Stroke? Is that a slash? 2 THE WITNESS: Slash. I'm sorry. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Is that E-Mail terminology? 6 A Yes, you know, and computer terminology, back 7 stroke, forward stroke. 8 Q Now, did the meeting, in fact -- 9 THE COURT: Was this you that made the 10 suggestion that you could just talk overseas 11 investor and Fred? Or was this Mr. Dandar? 12 THE WITNESS: No, that was Mr. Dandar, you 13 know, in response to my saying it is more 14 complicated to talk about the money issues with 15 Mr. Garko there. 16 THE COURT: Did you think it was odd to talk 17 about money and here he was bringing Dr. Garko? 18 THE WITNESS: No, because it was a lot more -- 19 as I said, the meeting was a lot broader ranging 20 than just money. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: And Dr. Garko was an integral 23 part of the trial team. I mean, Mr. Dandar -- he 24 was Mr. Dandar's main person. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
742 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Well, tell us what happened at the meeting, as you 3 recall. 4 A Mmm, well, I think I testified a little bit about 5 this already. But, you know, I was still -- I was still not 6 very comfortable about the whole subject of providing 7 additional moneys for this case. In fact, I felt very 8 uncomfortable about Ken because of what I perceived by him 9 as a campaign orchestrated by him on the Internet through 10 three individuals, mainly, who were basically, ever since, 11 you know, I stopped -- ever since I told Mr. Dandar, through 12 Mr. Merrett, that I was stopping funding the case, you know, 13 they were -- you know, it was a total smear campaign. 14 THE COURT: What was it? I have heard this 15 several times in this courtroom but I don't know 16 what it was. What were they -- I mean, what were 17 they saying about -- 18 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, that I have 19 abandoned the case, that I'm an SOB because I 20 promised to fund the case and, you know, now I'm 21 backing out of it. And, you know, just dragging up 22 every negative thing they could find that I'd ever 23 said on the Internet, repeating it. You know, and 24 just generally saying that, you know, look, I hadn't 25 done anything for this case. And I have abandoned
743 1 it. 2 THE COURT: Did you feel -- did you feel that 3 these -- that this was trying to exert pressure on 4 you to -- to fund it some more? Is that what you 5 perceived it as? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, one of the 7 people who were involved in this was a woman named 8 Dina Holmes, who sort of set up a website that was 9 sort of blessed by the family as being the website 10 for information. 11 And Mr. Dandar, I assume, or maybe it was Dell 12 Liebreich herself, one of the two of them would have 13 been sending her, you know, pleadings in the case 14 which she was, you know, scanning in and posting on 15 the Internet. 16 THE COURT: What site was this? 17 THE WITNESS: I think it is 18 www.LisaMcpherson.org or -- I can't remember which 19 one it is. It is -- it is in her signature line on 20 every message she posts on the Internet. And -- and 21 there is a lot of Lisa McPherson things on there. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: But this is a site run by Dina 24 Holmes. 25
744 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Who is Dina Holmes? 3 A She's a pal of Patricia Greenway's. And, you 4 know, she's a very rabid anti-Scientology critic. She's 5 probably even a more rabid critic of mine. 6 THE COURT: Dina what? 7 THE WITNESS: Holmes. 8 A And because of this, you know, quasi or -- or 9 official connection with the family and the case, you know, 10 her -- you know, her criticisms and the criticisms about me 11 abandoning this case -- you know, those criticisms on their 12 own would have been fine. But it wasn't fine to me that I 13 believed that Ken Dandar was orchestrating this through 14 Patricia Greenway. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Why did you believe that? 17 A Because they were close. And clearly she's the 18 one who brings Lirot in to be his lawyer. 19 Q Who is the one? 20 A Patricia Greenway. He was the attorney for 21 Courage Productions, as well. 22 Q And do you have any idea where Patricia Greenway 23 would be getting funding to do that? 24 A Yeah, I would say they are probably still using my 25 money.
745 1 Q This is the 2.4 million to Courage Productions? 2 A Right. 3 Q And in conjunction with whatever Dina Holmes was 4 posting, is this the same period of time where you are 5 getting letters about taking down clips from The Prophet 6 website that you had? 7 A During that period from -- I don't remember when 8 it was, I think I provided a copy of those letters, but it 9 was certainly between August and February. 10 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar 11 about -- as you call it -- the smear campaign at this 12 meeting, February 23rd and 24th? 13 A Yes, when he was in New Hampshire, you know, 14 Dr. Garko didn't seem to know anything about what was going 15 on in this connection. But Garko understood that it was 16 really troubling to me because I believed Ken was behind 17 this. 18 And, you know, Dr. Garko certainly was urging Ken, 19 you know, to get these people to stop these attacks. 20 And you know, even after -- after they left New 21 Hampshire, you know -- and Mr. Dandar agreed he would get 22 this stopped. And when he went back, I mean, it stopped 23 instantly, when he went back to Florida. 24 Q As you call it, the smear campaign on the 25 Internet?
746 1 A Right. 2 Q Was there any discussion connecting this stopping 3 that and the provision of further moneys to Mr. Dandar? 4 A Well, you know, at that moment in time during that 5 meeting in February, I didn't agree to give any more money 6 yet. 7 And, yes, the stopping the smear campaign was part 8 of any consideration for giving any more money. 9 Q I think you just said that you saw that it stopped 10 after Mr. Dandar went back to Tampa? 11 A Right. 12 Q Was there anything else discussed at the meetings 13 that we've not covered here? 14 A Well, there was the discussion of the case. 15 And -- and, you know, the case has never been stronger, that 16 is the -- that is the key line that I remember. 17 But, you know, there was a lot of discussion how 18 everything was really good, that we were going to get to 19 trial in June, you know, this -- this was the -- the end of 20 the game here, you know, let's push this over the goal line 21 and get this thing done. 22 And, you know, it -- it was a sales pitch in terms 23 of the strength of the case, you know, how he felt it was 24 going to go. 25 You know, he was very comfortable. He was coming
747 1 across as extremely convincing that this was going to be a 2 success. 3 Q And did he define what he meant by success to you? 4 A No. He didn't define it in monetary terms at 5 all -- 6 Q Did -- 7 A -- at that time. 8 Q Did he at any time after that, after that 9 February 23rd/24th meeting? 10 A You know, I don't remember. But there was -- 11 there was a time $40 million was talked about, and I'm not 12 sure whether that was in one of these conversations before 13 the meeting or after the meeting. But, you know, it was a 14 substantial difference from what, you know, discussions a 15 couple years previously had been. 16 Q And who -- who was describing the number to you? 17 A Mr. Dandar. 18 Q Was there any discussion about how -- if you were 19 going to fund any more money, how that would be done? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Can you tell us what that was? 22 A "Some of your overseas friends," or "overseas 23 investors or foreign friends, overseas investors," something 24 like that. 25 Q Who was saying that? You? Or Mr. Dandar?
748 1 A Mr. Dandar. 2 Q And what did you say in response to that? 3 A "Well, I'll have to see what I can do." 4 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar about 5 the funding after that face-to-face meeting? 6 A Yes. Yeah, there were -- you know, there -- we 7 talked several times after that, prior to March 7th. Once I 8 think it was about the suck-up letter. You know, once it 9 was about, you know, "It's really getting close here, we've 10 got to get this money." 11 Another time it was about the secret agreement 12 and, you know, my desire to have something firm and in 13 writing from Mr. Dandar. 14 Q Well, before we get to that, was there -- I want 15 to return back, before we leave the meeting. Was there any 16 discussion about your coming back to Florida to answer 17 questions in the wrongful death case? 18 A Yes, there were, on the Sunday morning. 19 Q All right. Can you tell us about that? 20 A Well, you know, Ms. Brooks was making a pretty 21 strong point about the whole legal morass that I was in or 22 she was in, but she was principally concentrating on me. 23 And, you know -- well, actually on the Saturday 24 there were some discussions about this, you know, that he 25 had to do more to protect me, and this was mainly Stacy
749 1 Brooks talking about this. 2 Q Yes? 3 A And then, you know -- and, in fact, there was a 4 discussion on that Saturday about bringing in Denis 5 DeVlaming as an additional attorney to, you know, work on 6 this, help me get out of this legal morass I was in. 7 Stacy and I both said, you know, Denis is a 8 criminal attorney, he doesn't like to do civil stuff. And 9 Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko agreed they would go talk to Denis 10 and see if he would come in and help Mr. Howie with regard 11 to the civil litigation -- these civil litigation matters. 12 And I believe they did that once they went back. 13 That was the report that Denis DeVlaming -- well, it was the 14 report that Mr. Dandar first, then Mr. DeVlaming, I think, 15 communicated this approach to Mr. Howie. 16 Q But you didn't meet with Mr. DeVlaming? Or did 17 you? 18 A I didn't. And I didn't talk to him about this. 19 Q Now, was there -- did anyone have the questions or 20 the deposition that you took the Fifth Amendment in to go 21 over with you? 22 A Well, I had -- I had them. 23 Q Okay. 24 A And, you know, this became a topic of the 25 discussion on the Sunday morning. Stacy Brooks was up
750 1 earlier than I was. And she's downstairs with either 2 Mr. Dandar or Dr. Garko, or both. I think Dr. Garko and I 3 both slept a little late that morning. 4 And, you know, it came up then, according to what 5 Stacy Brooks told me and -- 6 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Let's talk about what conversations, if any, you 10 had with Mr. Dandar about any questions that you had taken 11 the Fifth Amendment on. 12 A Well, he said, look, let's go over the 86 or 95 13 questions or whatever it was, let's just go through them one 14 by one and make sure that you can answer these. 15 So we went through them one by one. You know, I 16 went upstairs and got a copy of the order -- or not the 17 order, whatever it was that Judge Schaeffer signed off on 18 and said, you know, he needs to answer these questions. And 19 we went over them one by one. 20 Q And can you tell us what discussion there was 21 about -- about areas that you had expressed a concern in? 22 MR. FUGATE: Without leading, Judge. 23 A Well, the money issues were a concern, that, you 24 know, came out during the course of these questions. And 25 there was -- I believe there was the question about the
751 1 moneys that had come to the LMT, the anonymous moneys that 2 came to the LMT, you know, some of which went back to 3 Mr. Dandar. And, you know, in one -- 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Was that questions like do you know the source of 6 the Operation Clambake funds? 7 A It -- it might have been that, too. But it was 8 also this $500,000. 9 Q The $500,000 UBS check that you had given -- 10 A No, the $500,000 that came into LMT from the 11 German bank. 12 Q And that was written out to you by Stacy Brooks? 13 A Mmm, some of it, or -- I'm not -- I don't remember 14 how much. But some of it, for sure. 15 Q And what -- and what was said by Mr. Dandar about 16 that? 17 A Well, he -- he asked me, "Well, how are you going 18 to answer this one?" 19 Q What did you say? 20 A And I said, you know, "I don't really know." I 21 said, you know, "I can say that, you know, this anonymous 22 source was someone who contacted us named the fat man." You 23 know, something along those lines, you know, in a story that 24 went along with that. 25 And, you know, Mr. Dandar said, you know, "Bob,
752 1 that is ridiculous," you know, "who in the hell is going to 2 believe that?" 3 And he said, "You've got to come up with something 4 better than that." 5 And, you know, we just went through each and every 6 question that was on this list. And, you know, we didn't 7 come up with a better answer than that at the time. And, 8 you know, as time went on, the better answer was to 9 straighten out the record. 10 Q Whose idea was that? 11 A Mine, based on advice of counsel. 12 Q And what do you mean by "straighten out the 13 record"? 14 A Well, that when -- you know, well, you know, this 15 is overall -- well, the first issues were the -- you know, 16 the contempt hearings and the Rosen depositions, the 17 continuation of that deposition where I was going to have to 18 answer the questions. You know, this is what -- I mean, you 19 know, I was in a total mess. 20 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 21 Honor? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q I show you a copy of a motion of the Church of 25 Scientology Flag Service Organization's to overrule
753 1 self-incrimination claim, et cetera. 2 Did you have that document with you? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I don't know if you need a 5 copy of it, but I'll give one to the Court. It's in 6 the record. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Have you had it marked? 8 MR. FUGATE: What is our next number? 9 THE CLERK: 126. 10 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy? 11 MR. FUGATE: Yes, I do. I wasn't going to mark 12 it but I will. 13 MR. DANDAR: It's 126? 14 MR. FUGATE: It's 126. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Do you recall if you utilized this document to go 17 through and break out the questions you needed to answer if 18 you came back to Florida? 19 A I believe Mr. Dandar had this document, and I had 20 a different document but it had all those questions 21 extracted from this document. I mean, I gave it to 22 Mr. Dandar. I had it upstairs on a desk. 23 Q And do you recall, on questions that went to the 24 total amount of the money that had been funded, whether you 25 were given any advice or instruction on how to answer as to
754 1 that money that you had provided to the Lisa McPherson case? 2 A I don't remember whether that came up at that 3 moment in those questions or not. It came up in a later 4 conversation. 5 Q Can you tell us about that conversation? 6 A Well, this is after -- after the meetings on the 7 28th and 29th in New York with the Church of Scientology. 8 And, you know, that is when, you know, this issue came up 9 again. And again, you know, Mr. Dandar had said that, you 10 know -- you know, in response to me telling him that, you 11 know, "Based on the advice of the attorneys, you know, I 12 have got to go down there and reveal these checks, period." 13 THE COURT: Didn't we go through this 14 yesterday? 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes, we did, Judge. Moving ahead, 16 Judge. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q I think, in talking about that yesterday, you said 19 that you asked Mr. Dandar for the money back, and there 20 never was any more conversation -- did you have conversation 21 about getting the $250,000 back? 22 THE WITNESS: We are off the other subject? 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, maybe this was getting 24 nigh onto 5 yesterday. I don't remember that. 25 MR. FUGATE: Let me go back then. To tell you
755 1 the truth, Judge, I'm never sure, when it gets to be 2 4 o'clock or so, what we did cover. 3 THE COURT: I know. Me, too. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Let's go back, I guess, and put this in a 6 sequence. You have had the meeting on February 23rd/24th. 7 Did you ultimately cause a check to be provided to 8 Mr. Dandar? 9 A Yes. On -- well, the check was issued March 7th. 10 I sent it to Mr. Dandar sometime the following week, I 11 believe, once I got it. 12 Q Once you got it in your possession? 13 A Yes. It was sent by courier to me and, you know, 14 I -- I eventually sent it to Mr. Dandar. 15 Q And that check, which is 93I in evidence, is also 16 a UBS check, is that correct? 17 THE COURT: Please don't ask something we all 18 know the answer to, counsel. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Made out to Ken Dandar? 21 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record, Judge. 22 A Yes. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q How did that get down to Mr. Dandar? 25 A I sent it by overnight mail.
756 1 Q Was there any conversation about how you were 2 going to send it and when it was coming? 3 A Well, yes. 4 Q Was that by phone, or face-to-face? 5 A By phone. I -- I believe that I let Mr. Dandar 6 know -- I'm not certain about this -- but I believe that I 7 let him know that I got the check. And, you know, I -- I 8 think I led him to believe that I was going to send it off 9 pretty much straight away. 10 But I didn't. It sat around for a few days 11 because I was still a little bit unsure about this, about 12 sending him any more money. 13 And at one stage, you know, I mentioned a date in 14 my affidavit. But sometime that following week, after the 15 check was issued and couriered to me, he called to say -- he 16 was out of town away from the office, I think, most of the 17 week. And he said that, you know, he had checked with Donna 18 and nothing had come. 19 Q Who is Donna, if you know? 20 A She's the lady sitting next to Mr. Dandar there, 21 his assistant, judicial assistant or whatever. 22 THE COURT: Is that his secretary? Or does he 23 have another secretary? 24 MS. WEST: I'm not a secretary. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't know at this stage. She
757 1 used to be his secretary/legal -- 2 THE COURT: Paralegal? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is it, paralegal, your 4 Honor. She may be more than that, I don't know. I 5 don't think we ever really got introduced in terms 6 of the titles. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Well, at any rate, Donna had said it had not come. 10 So what did you communicate back to him? 11 A I think he said it had not come to the office yet. 12 I said, "Well, I had sent it to the post office 13 box." 14 You know, that is his mailing address, so I sent 15 it to his post office box, as opposed to the office address. 16 And I think I said to him that "It will actually arrive 17 there tomorrow," the timing. There is a little fuzziness, 18 or, "I just sent it yesterday," or, "I just sent it today." 19 Q Was there any discussion about -- 20 THE COURT: I have just got to ask a question. 21 MR. FUGATE: Sure. 22 THE COURT: Is it unusual to send a check for 23 $250,000 through the mail? I know, you know there 24 are crooks out there who forge signatures and what 25 have you.
758 1 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't -- 2 THE COURT: But you didn't think -- I mean -- 3 THE WITNESS: I thought it was pretty safe, you 4 know, with the Post Office tracking number, you 5 know. It's in one of those overnight type Post 6 Office things. 7 THE COURT: I guess we all send checks through 8 the mail, but mine are not that big. 9 MR. FUGATE: Smaller. 10 THE COURT: I don't know, I would be a little 11 nervous if I was sending a $250,000 check through 12 the mail, I think. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Did you put anything in with the check when you 15 mailed it? 16 A Yes. I -- I put it in an essay -- well, 17 Mr. Dandar asked me, this is in connection with this 18 Caroline Lekteman lady who was going to be his expert 19 witness. He asked me to send him the essay that she wrote 20 for this LMT contest. And so I E-mailed that to him. And 21 so I printed out that E-Mail when I sent the check and told 22 him on the phone that I'd put the check on -- I think it 23 was -- Page 23 or something, and that is where he could find 24 the check. So that is the way it went. So, you know, it 25 looked like a stack of documents.
759 1 Q Coming into the office? 2 A Right. You know -- you know, given his penchant 3 for keeping everything quiet, you know, I just sort of 4 obliged. You know, he didn't suggest sticking it in the 5 middle of a bunch of papers. But I just put it in there. 6 Then there was another call from Mr. Dandar to 7 confirm that it had arrived, that the package had arrived. 8 Q That he got -- can you tell us about that call? 9 A Mmm, that he sent Donna West to the Post Office 10 and she got the overnight mail. 11 Q Did he mention finding the check? 12 A He didn't say anything about whether she saw the 13 check or not. 14 Q No. No. Did he mention that he had gotten the 15 check? 16 A He was still out of town. 17 THE COURT: He was out of town. 18 MR. FUGATE: Pardon me? 19 A He was still out of town. 20 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. 21 A I believe he came back the next day. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Well, did you ever have a conversation with him 24 where he acknowledged receiving the check? 25 A Mmm, I don't know that I did.
760 1 Q Well, did you have a conversation with him about 2 returning the money? 3 A Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, then I did, yeah. But 4 that is, you know, a few weeks later. You know, on the -- 5 well, not a few weeks, a couple weeks later. This is -- the 6 conversation about returning the money was on the morning of 7 the 30th. 8 THE COURT: Of March? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. March, 2002. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q I have to go back in sequence for the Court. 12 THE COURT: No, I remember it now. 13 MR. FUGATE: Oh, okay. 14 THE COURT: I'm up to date. Go on ahead from 15 there. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Then tell us about the conversation that you had 18 with him on the 30th about returning the money. How did 19 that conversation come to be? 20 A Well, this is when -- you know, when the whole 21 thing broke down and he didn't want us to come up to Ohio 22 for this meeting on the Wednesday while he was up there for 23 this heart check-up. 24 And, you know, I mean, you know, neither one of us 25 were happy with each other at that moment. And, you know, I
761 1 said, well, you know, "It's about time you give --" I didn't 2 say it so politely "-- but give me the money back." 3 And he actually said that he would see how much 4 was left. And he didn't -- he didn't call me back on that 5 Monday, the following Monday, the Monday after Easter. 6 Q Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: Your Honor, I'm going to object. 8 If he goes into any conversations where I relayed to 9 him -- unless he already told the other side, which 10 he probably has -- about how much money I have left, 11 I would object to that and instruct the witness not 12 to answer unless he already told them, and then I 13 would like to know. 14 THE COURT: I don't even know what the question 15 is. 16 MR. FUGATE: I don't -- 17 THE WITNESS: I was just finishing -- I don't 18 remember what the question was. But I remember what 19 my answer is. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Well -- 22 THE COURT: Did he tell you in this 23 conversation, when he said something about, "Well, 24 I'll look to see how much I have left," did you at 25 any later time have a conversation with him where he
762 1 told you how much he had left? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Okay. And have you revealed that 4 amount of money that he had left to the Church? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, what I revealed to the 6 Church was that he said he spent the entire $250,000 7 in that two weeks. 8 THE COURT: Well, so you did reveal it to the 9 Church that he had zero left? 10 THE WITNESS: Out of that two-fifty. 11 THE COURT: As to what he said? 12 THE WITNESS: As to what he said, yes. 13 THE COURT: All right. So the cat is out of 14 the bag there, Mr. Dandar. 15 MR. DANDAR: That cat is a real something. 16 THE COURT: That cat jumped again, once again, 17 out of the sack. So you still want to make your 18 objection, because I'll sustain it, but -- is that a 19 no? 20 MR. DANDAR: Well, I made my objection but the 21 cat is out of the bag. 22 THE COURT: So are you withdrawing it? 23 MR. DANDAR: No. I'm not withdrawing my 24 objection. I just objected. I don't want to waive 25 anything.
763 1 THE COURT: Well, then I'm going to sustain 2 your objection. 3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thank you. 4 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q I had asked you a question about whether or not 8 you had received a deposition of Teresa Summers, do you 9 recall that, I think yesterday, or at some point in your 10 testimony? 11 THE COURT: Is this important? 12 MR. FUGATE: Pardon me? 13 THE COURT: Is this important? 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Well, let me ask this. Were you aware that 16 Mr. Dandar filed a motion for sanctions for noncompliance 17 with the confidentiality order against Mr. Moxon for the 18 fact that that deposition had been published on the 19 Internet? 20 A No. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, that saves that question, 22 Judge. 23 THE COURT: Yes, it does. 24 A What I was aware of about it was that there was a 25 motion filed against Mr. Moxon or -- you know, and the
764 1 Church -- 2 THE COURT: I think you answered the question, 3 and anything beyond that is really irrelevant. If 4 you didn't know about it, you didn't see it -- it 5 isn't that big a deal, anyway, if the truth be 6 known. 7 THE WITNESS: I mean, your Honor, I don't think 8 it was posted on the Internet. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q And you have also filed, and I believe it's in 11 front of you now -- what did I do with it -- the third 12 affidavit, the one dealing with Mr. Prince. Do you have 13 that up there in front of you? 14 A Let me find that one. I haven't seen that one in 15 a while. 16 THE COURT: Me, either, so you and I will look 17 together. 18 MR. FUGATE: If you can't find them, I'm 19 sure -- 20 THE COURT: I'm sure I can find them. It's 21 just a matter of where. It is here. I don't want 22 another one. 23 I found mine. 24 THE WITNESS: I found mine. 25 THE COURT: All right. This is the third
765 1 affidavit? 2 MR. FUGATE: Yes, dated 24 April, 2002. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Is that the third affidavit that you filed through 5 your counsel? 6 A Yes, it is. 7 Q And can you tell us what prompted the filing of 8 that affidavit by you? 9 A Well, this whole issue of intimidation really is 10 what it came as a result of. 11 Q And the intimidation -- 12 A Of a witness. 13 Q Well, let's explain what you mean by that. 14 A Well, at the time this was just in Judge Baird's 15 case. But what happened when Mr. Prince came to this hotel 16 that Sunday night, the Radisson Hotel, which is described 17 here, you know, I called my attorney that night in Boston, 18 after that, because it was really late and Mr. Howie doesn't 19 like to get phone calls really late at night. 20 Q After eleven? 21 A Mmm, I don't think Mr. Howie likes them after 22 nine. So I try to, you know, keep him happy on that score. 23 But I felt that the threats that Jesse made were 24 serious enough to call my attorney and ask him -- well, I 25 said to Ms. Brooks that "I think we ought to report this to
766 1 the police." 2 And you know, I said, "This guy comes around here, 3 you know, I want -- you know, I want to talk to the police, 4 I want to see about filing an injunction against this guy." 5 Q Did you ultimately discuss that with your 6 attorneys? 7 A I discussed the matter -- 8 Q Just yes or no. I don't want to invade any -- 9 A Yes. 10 Q And are you aware if either Mr. Jonas or Mr. Howie 11 contacted Mr. Prince, yes, or no? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Now, have you read Mr. Prince's affidavit that 14 he's filed through Mr. Dandar in this proceeding? 15 A Well, I don't think I have yet finished answering 16 your question because there is another important issue here. 17 You know, as I said, the threat was serious enough 18 that I felt that it should be reported to the Clearwater 19 Police. 20 I had supporting information that that would be a 21 very wise idea, and it should also be reported to the Church 22 of Scientology what had happened at that meeting, simply 23 because there appeared to be threats against them, as well. 24 And -- 25 Q By?
767 1 A By Jesse Prince. 2 Q What were the threats that you perceived to 3 yourself, first? 4 A Well, with regard to Jesse -- you know, he was 5 inebriated, he was going through this, you know, whole story 6 about, you know, pulling guns on David Miscavige. He wanted 7 to get in Mike Rinder's face. You know, he wanted to be 8 brought to the table to sit down and meet with these people. 9 And this was -- that was actually the sub- -- the meeting 10 with him was actually the subject of a conversation earlier 11 in the room, as opposed to down in the restaurant. 12 But the threatening part was, you know, going 13 through this whole gun story and basically saying that, you 14 know -- 15 THE COURT: I know this must have something to 16 do with this hearing but I don't know what. 17 MR. FUGATE: I just was trying to go through 18 the affidavit, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Well, I understand that, and that 20 is an affidavit, and I understand that is an 21 affidavit. But what does that have to do with 22 whether or not there was some -- something between 23 him and Mr. Dandar and all this group to get the 24 Church and whether or not there was perjury going 25 on? I mean, tell me and I'll let you get it in.
768 1 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I -- I think that the 2 issues that we have discussed are the issues that -- 3 prior to this affidavit are the issues that the 4 Court should focus on. 5 I just wanted -- in the spirit of going 6 through, to put the witness in front of you, to have 7 the affidavits to go through. And if you don't need 8 it, I don't need to spend time doing it. 9 THE COURT: I only need it if it is relevant 10 for this hearing. 11 MR. FUGATE: Let me check with co-counsel. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the only thing that I would 14 submit to your Honor is is that it does go to an 15 issue -- there has been an issue raised by 16 Mr. Dandar that somehow the Church or counsel on 17 behalf of the Church were threatening Mr. Minton. 18 And we have Mr. Prince making threats. And I 19 think it is relevant to his credibility, since 20 Mr. Prince's -- Mr. Prince's credibility, since he 21 filed an affidavit and may well be a witness, if he 22 can tell you what his conversations with Mr. Prince 23 were. 24 THE COURT: Well, I have his affidavit. You 25 know, if you want to go through it, go ahead.
769 1 Is Mr. Prince still going to be a witness here? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. But really 4 and truly, I can see his affidavit. You might ask 5 him to read it and tell us if it is all correct. I 6 mean, I have had Mr. Minton for days. I mean -- 7 MR. FUGATE: Believe me, Judge, I know. 8 THE COURT: I'm probably going to have him some 9 more. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Have you had an opportunity to read it over while 12 we've been talking back and forth here? 13 A No. But I wrote it and, you know, that is -- 14 Q It's accurate? 15 A That's accurate. Yeah. 16 Q And did you have an opportunity to read 17 Mr. Prince's affidavit that was filed in this matter, in 18 this particular proceeding? 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q And without going through that line by line, do 21 you have an opinion as to whether or not you believe that 22 it's accurate? 23 A I think it is like Norse mythology. I don't think 24 it is accurate at all. You know, he's created incidents 25 that never even occurred. That is my recollection of having
770 1 read it. 2 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, that is all of the 5 questions I have. 6 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar, I'm going 7 to leave it up to you. It is five minutes after 8 four, ten minutes after four. I'm happy to let you 9 go some, or I'm happy to stop for the day and let 10 you-all go home and come back and have you start 11 tomorrow morning. 12 MR. DANDAR: Start fresh in the morning. 13 THE COURT: Sounds good to me. Quite frankly, 14 I'm a little tired. And I'm sure the witness is 15 tired, too. 16 So we'll go ahead and break for the night, and 17 we'll come back at 9 o'clock and we'll begin with 18 this witness on cross, and then we'll break at 1:30 19 or 2:00, take Mr. Merrett, and -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: You think we'll break probably 21 for lunch at about 12:30 or something like that? 22 THE COURT: 12, 12:15. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. We get Merrett at 1:30. 24 THE COURT: So you may be excused, I'm excused 25 and I'm at ease and nobody has got to stand.
771 1 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, Mr. Minton is still 2 subject to the same admonitions the Court discussed 3 with him? 4 THE COURT: Yes, he's still on the stand and, 5 therefore, you really can't talk to anybody about 6 your testimony. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Except you can talk to your lawyers 9 overnight, but not about -- you know what he can 10 talk to you about, he has matters where he needs a 11 lawyer's advice, he can ask you about it. He can't 12 say, "How did I do? Is there something else I 13 need --" you know, that isn't what he needs you for. 14 MR. HOWIE: Understood, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 THE WITNESS: There was -- I hope you don't 17 mind if -- this is a light moment. There was -- 18 THE COURT: I like light moments from time to 19 time. 20 THE WITNESS: There was an inappropriate 21 question asked in the -- concerning my testimony 22 today by Stacy Brooks. And it was concerning the 23 pictures that were shown to me that she didn't see 24 and she asked me how did she look. 25 THE COURT: I see. You should tell her not
772 1 nearly as good as she does in person. 2 THE WITNESS: I told her, "I can't discuss that 3 with you." 4 MR. HOWIE: Are we at ease? 5 THE COURT: We're at ease. Indeed, we are. 6 (WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 4:15 p.m.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
773 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 22nd day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25