Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
1
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 1
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of John Merrett.
17
DATE: May 23, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE and
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
23 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
24 Attorney for Stacy Brooks.
25
3
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6 ALSO PRESENT:
7 Mr. Rick Spector
Ms. Sarah Heller
8 Mr. Ben Shaw
Mr. Brian Asay
9 Ms. Joyce Earl
Ms. Donna West
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4
1 THE COURT: You may be seated. I think we're
2 waiting for our clerk.
3 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I have one matter we
4 can bring up.
5 THE COURT: Can we do it without the clerk?
6 MR. MOXON: Yes. I mentioned after the
7 Court -- the Court requested a copy of this film,
8 The Profit.
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MR. MOXON: I had a subpoena sent out from my
11 office, served on Miss Greenway, yesterday, who is
12 the producer of the film and has some kind of an
13 interest in the company. She's the vice-president
14 of Courage Productions.
15 So I would like an order she produce it. I
16 asked -- she just ran out. She was literally here
17 when I stood up.
18 MR. LIROT: I represent Ms. Greenway, Judge --
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. LIROT: -- in the other case. If you like,
21 we'll show you the film in camera. We just don't
22 want any more copies flying around.
23 I would be surprised if Mr. Moxon didn't have a
24 copy. I would like to file a protective order. I
25 have been out of town, but if you would --
5
1 THE COURT: I would like to see it in the
2 privacy of my home. I'm not going to show it to
3 anybody.
4 MR. LIROT: I'll provide you a copy of the film
5 and you can watch it, as long --
6 THE COURT: Is it on video, or DVD?
7 MR. LIROT: Half-inch, so you can -- you can
8 stick it in like a regular videotape.
9 THE COURT: Like --
10 MR. WEINBERG: VHS?
11 MR. LIROT: Yes.
12 THE COURT: I have the capabilities of watching
13 that, if it is all right. I don't know what it is
14 about. Everybody keeps talking about it.
15 MR. MOXON: We'll provide you a little brief
16 memo on it before you see it.
17 MR. LIROT: We don't need a memo. We'll let
18 you decide what is relevant about the movie, and
19 I'll present the tape. When you are done with it,
20 if you'll give it back. We don't want it to be of
21 matter of public record. We'll let you watch it at
22 your own convenience.
23 THE COURT: That would be fine.
24 MR. LIROT: Very good.
25 THE COURT: To tell you the truth, I have a
6
1 3-day weekend coming up, I'm not real keen on seeing
2 it, but whatever time I have, I can watch it this
3 weekend.
4 MR. LIROT: I'll get it to you tomorrow, Judge.
5 THE COURT: Okay. That would be great.
6 MR. WEINBERG: You have Spiderman, Star Wars
7 and you can see The Profit.
8 (A discussion was held off the record.)
9 MR. MOXON: The other thing, your Honor,
10 Mr. Merrett appeared now.
11 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Well, I really need the
12 clerk.
13 MR. MOXON: Okay.
14 THE COURT: I hope she's not sick or something.
15 Usually she's right here.
16 MR. HOWIE: One other matter, your Honor.
17 Mr. Minton should be here momentarily.
18 I have copies of the depo transcript to go over
19 with him. I would like to be able to excuse myself
20 to a room in the library or a room down the hall
21 while Mr. Merrett is testifying.
22 THE COURT: Sure.
23 MR. HOWIE: And let the bailiff know --
24 THE COURT: You may be excused any time you
25 like.
7
1 MR. HOWIE: I'll let the bailiff or the clerk
2 know where I'll be.
3 THE BAILIFF: Okay.
4 MR. DANDAR: Judge --
5 THE COURT: Why don't you see if you can find
6 out where she is, see if she's tied up in traffic or
7 sick, or what.
8 MR. DANDAR: I was going to suggest, let's go
9 forward and go as far as we can without using the
10 clerk's services.
11 THE COURT: Just about the time you wanted to
12 get some document, you know -- let's just see if
13 she's just a couple minutes late.
14 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, John Merrett. I'm
15 going to be testifying, I think.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. MERRETT: My only concern about Mr. Howie
18 excusing himself is I have at various times had an
19 attorney-client relationship with Mr. Minton, and
20 because I don't know exactly what is going on here,
21 I don't feel competent to protect his privilege
22 should it be implicated at any point during the
23 questioning.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Howie, that should be a
25 problem. That is why --
8
1 (Discussion had off the record.)
2 MR. HOWIE: I need to touch base with
3 Mr. Minton on this. I suspect we'll be in the
4 position of waiving attorney-client privilege.
5 After all, I suspect, based on Mr. Minton's
6 testimony concerning what occurred during
7 depositions, that that might constitute a waiver.
8 But let me clear it with Mr. Minton --
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. HOWIE: -- in some detail.
11 THE COURT: Yes, there may be certain things
12 here that he's talked about, like what he talked
13 about, Mr. Merrett, certainly it is waived. You
14 can't have him assert the privilege, then allow one
15 side to talk about it and not the other. So that
16 would certainly be waived. But I don't know what is
17 going to be brought up. So it could be something
18 you would need to take up with your client.
19 All right, Mr. Merrett.
20 MR. MERRETT: Yes, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Your client doesn't appear to be
22 here, Mr. McGowan, but that is not my fault.
23 MR. McGOWAN: That is right. We can go ahead.
24 (Witness sworn.)
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
9
1 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, thank you for coming.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
3 THE COURT: We're going to take you out of
4 order to do the best we can to accommodate --
5 THE WITNESS: I appreciate it, and I also
6 appreciate you letting me come today so Mr. McGowan
7 could be here to protect Ms. Brooks' interests
8 during my testimony.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 ________________________________________
11 JOHN MERRETT,
12 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
13 and testified as follows:
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q State your name.
17 A John Merrett.
18 Q Spell your last name.
19 A M-E-R-R-E-T-T.
20 Q Are you a member in good standing of the Florida
21 Bar?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Since when?
24 A 1988.
25 Q That didn't come out right.
10
1 Q Since the probation was up last year! No. Since
2 1988 continuously.
3 Q And you practice in Jacksonville, correct?
4 A For the most part.
5 Q All right. At what point in time did you start to
6 represent anyone in the Tampa Bay area?
7 A I believe it was early 2000.
8 Q And who did you first represent?
9 A Peter Alexander.
10 Q And why did you represent him?
11 A He was being deposed by Scientology in connection
12 with the wrongful death case.
13 Q At that time did you also represent the LMT?
14 A No.
15 Q Or Stacy Brooks or Bob Minton?
16 A No.
17 Q Prior to Mr. Alexander's deposition, had you had
18 any contact with any litigation involving the Church of
19 Scientology?
20 A No. Other than having run across some reported
21 decisions over the years. But nothing that I was involved
22 in.
23 Q Okay. How did Mr. Alexander find you since you
24 were in Jacksonville?
25 A Through Patricia Greenway, I believe.
11
1 Q How did she find you?
2 A Over the Internet.
3 Q Did you also represent them in reference to
4 Courage Productions?
5 A I represented, I know, Courage Productions. I
6 don't recall exactly whether I represented them
7 individually.
8 Q In reference to Courage Productions, what did you
9 do?
10 A Generally, advised on various legal questions that
11 came up during the course of the creation of a film they
12 were making. I attended on the set a couple of times.
13 I assisted in directing an investigator who was
14 conducting essentially counter-surveillance against
15 Scientology investigators and picketers and people like
16 that, and eventually filed an injunction action to attempt
17 to keep various Scientology operatives from interfering with
18 the making of the film.
19 Q And then was it after that time that you became
20 retained by the Lisa McPherson Trust?
21 A I don't know when the film was made so I can't
22 answer that.
23 Q If I told you that the film did not start
24 production until August of 2000, would that help refresh
25 your memory?
12
1 A Yes. I think I was probably already representing
2 the LMT and/or Ms. Brooks and/or Mr. Minton by then.
3 Q In the deposition transcript of Mr. Minton of
4 May 24 --
5 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. I did
6 notice, Mr. McGowan, your client is present. Did
7 you realize she came in?
8 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, I did. Thank you, your
9 Honor.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Minton still isn't here.
11 MR. HOWIE: He should be here momentarily.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q In the transcript of the deposition of Mr. Minton
14 of May 24, 2000, you are noted as being present and
15 objecting to many questions?
16 A That is correct. And I had actually been
17 representing him for some fairly brief time before that
18 because there had been some -- I know I had filed a motion
19 for protective order which was granted that covered that
20 deposition.
21 Q Okay.
22 A The order was entered, I think, on the 23rd.
23 THE COURT: What depo, I'm sorry?
24 MR. DANDAR: May 24, 2000.
25 THE COURT: May 24?
13
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q While the case was pending in Tampa. Correct?
3 A I believe that is correct, but I don't know for
4 sure when it moved.
5 Q Okay. And is it your understanding at the time of
6 the May 24, 2000 deposition of Mr. Minton that the trial was
7 scheduled in June of 2000 in Tampa?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And that is the Lisa McPherson case?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now, are you aware of any instance where I sat
12 down, in person or over the telephone, with Mr. Minton and
13 attempted to prepare him for his May 24th, 2000 deposition?
14 A No. In fact, it's my understanding that the
15 reason that he came to me was because there wasn't anybody
16 involved in the case who could do that without creating a
17 conflict of interest.
18 Q Now, in Mr. Minton's deposition there is some
19 reference to him testifying in a criminal case prior -- the
20 day before May 24, 2000. What was that about?
21 A I believe that was -- he was charged with simple
22 battery, I believe it was, after an altercation with a
23 Scientologist in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel.
24 And I believe he had gone to trial either right up
25 until the day before or the Friday before, and the depo was
14
1 on a Monday or something.
2 Q Is that Mr. Howd?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And you -- did you represent Mr. Minton for that?
5 A No.
6 Q That was Mr. DeVlaming?
7 A As far as I know. Yes.
8 Q All right. Now, before getting on the stand
9 today, excluding the time when I called you once or twice to
10 tell you that, you know, you need to be here, have you
11 conferred with anyone in reference to what you may testify
12 about today?
13 A I have had several conversations with people
14 concerning the fact that there is a motion, whose gravamen I
15 do not quite grasp, now pending before the Court.
16 And with regard to the procedural steps that
17 brought us up this far, I spoke briefly to Mr. McGowan, I
18 spoke even more briefly and tangentially to Mr. Howie today.
19 Those are the conversations that I have had.
20 But no one has talked with me about what I'm going
21 to testify about. Nobody has said, you know, "What do you
22 know about this? What do you know about that?" Except
23 Mr. McGowan asked me a couple of questions.
24 And nobody has said, "This is what I testified
25 to."
15
1 Q Okay. All right. And no one has said, "This is
2 what so and so testified to"?
3 A You mentioned, in a conversation, an affidavit
4 that had been filed by Ms. Brooks.
5 Q Right. That is an affidavit, though.
6 A Right. I believe Mr. McGowan may have mentioned
7 testimony by way of lining me up on the subject matter of
8 the question he was about to ask me. But I don't recall
9 anything else like that.
10 Q But certainly Mr. McGowan and Mr. Howie didn't
11 suggest what answers to give to certain questions?
12 A No.
13 Q Did anyone else?
14 A No.
15 Q All right. Now --
16 A And let me be clear, I have spoken, as well, to
17 Mr. Minton and to Ms. Brooks.
18 Q When did you talk to them?
19 A I talked to Mr. Minton last Saturday. I talked to
20 Ms. Brooks, Mmm, a couple days ago. I talked to her very
21 briefly today, just to get her to call Mr. Bunker and have
22 him call me, because I didn't have his number.
23 Q Why were you concerned about Mr. Bunker?
24 A Because I understand that there is a substantial
25 amount of interest in some tapes that I'm holding in trust
16
1 for him. And I wanted to reconfirm his ownership of the
2 tapes and receive instruction from him as to how he wanted
3 them handled.
4 Q Did he confirm the ownership of the tapes?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Does he own the tapes?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did he give you instructions on turning them --
9 THE COURT: I'm sorry, who is this, Mr. Bunker?
10 MR. DANDAR: Mark Bunker.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q And where was he when you were talking to him?
13 A I don't know. I assume he was in New Hampshire,
14 but I don't know.
15 Q Does he work for Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton?
16 A I have no idea.
17 Q Okay. We're going to get to that, by the way.
18 Did Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton, in the several times
19 that you talked to them recently, tell you what they were
20 testifying about?
21 A No. In fact, Mr. Minton was quite adamant. I
22 asked him a couple of times, "What's going on?"
23 And he said that he was under the rule of
24 sequestration and couldn't talk about his testimony. And
25 what he talked about was procedurally the sort of chain of
17
1 facts sort of that, had I been able to follow it, would have
2 explained how he got back in court.
3 Q Did he say to you that through his testimony the
4 Church of Scientology has filed a motion to disqualify me as
5 counsel and motion to dismiss the Lisa McPherson case?
6 A He told me that such motions had been filed. He
7 told me that -- or I guess I had the impression that either
8 his testimony or statements he made out of court were
9 regarded as being supportive of those motions.
10 Q What did Ms. Brooks -- did he get into any detail
11 about what that is?
12 A Only he said that he had recanted testimony about
13 the absence of a secret agreement regarding disposition of
14 the possible proceeds of the wrongful death case.
15 Q Anything else?
16 A He said there was some dispute or some issue
17 regarding the source and designation of funds provided to
18 you or to the estate or to your office.
19 And I gather that was the root of the dispute was
20 where those funds went, who they were given to or loaned to,
21 whether it was a gift or a loan.
22 Q Anything else?
23 A Not that I recall.
24 Q What about Ms. Brooks?
25 A My conversation with Ms. Brooks was almost
18
1 exclusively personal.
2 Q Well, tell us the part that wasn't personal.
3 A I guess the part that wasn't personal would be
4 along the lines of that, "This is a real mess. Mmm, it's
5 terrible. Mmm, I was on the stand for eight days."
6 And I pointed out to her, in Jacksonville we put
7 people in the electric chair in less time than that.
8 That was about the extent of what was not -- she
9 and I are quite good friends.
10 Q Are you still the attorney for Ms. Brooks?
11 A No.
12 Q When she talked to you, were you her attorney?
13 A No.
14 Q Were you the attorney for Mr. Minton when he
15 talked to you?
16 A No.
17 Q Did either one of them, in their conversations
18 with you, express remorse at lying under oath?
19 A I didn't discuss with Ms. Brooks, that I recall,
20 anything about her having lied under oath.
21 Mr. Minton's conversation with me was -- I mean,
22 it was essentially a monologue. I mean, I didn't ask him
23 any questions, other than, "What was that you said?"
24 And he -- I think everybody in here has heard him
25 speak at length, he's a very matter-of-fact person in
19
1 communication, so there wasn't an opportunity to express
2 regret if he has regret, and I didn't ask him if he had any
3 regret.
4 I did tell him I couldn't understand why anybody
5 would ever lie about it, since nothing that I had heard
6 suggested anything illegal or immoral or unethical,
7 regardless of what the truth was.
8 Q Did you hear, while you were representing the LMT,
9 Minton or Brooks, about the so-called secret agreement?
10 A I only heard that there was not one.
11 Q When did you hear that?
12 A At the times that the issue was being raised by
13 Scientology in connection with the wrongful death case, and
14 I assume during deposition prep.
15 But as it cropped up in the course of the
16 litigation, as it was brought to the surface of the wrongful
17 death litigation, is when the subject came up.
18 Q Okay. Now let's talk about witness prep for
19 depositions. Okay?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q And I'm going to tax your memory, but it's
22 probably better than mine. Let's go back to the first one
23 that you were involved with, May 24, 2000, Mr. Minton.
24 A That is the second, but --
25 Q Is that the second?
20
1 A Mr. Alexander was the first.
2 Q I'm sorry. Well, he's not involved in any of
3 this, as far as you know, right?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Mr. Minton's deposition, May 24, 2000, who prepped
6 him for his deposition?
7 A I did.
8 Q Do you know from any source in the world, that is
9 as broad as I can make it, if I prepped Mr. Minton on any
10 subject matter for that deposition?
11 A I have no information that you did.
12 Q When you said that Mr. Minton -- or the LMT needed
13 to get a new lawyer or needed to get a lawyer because of
14 conflict of interest, what were you talking about?
15 A Simply it would be inappropriate, as well as
16 taxing, for an attorney who was representing a litigant to
17 also represent people who have been deemed witnesses in the
18 case, other than just incidentally. I mean, it's
19 commonplace for parties' attorneys to file objections or
20 motions for protective order on behalf of a witness to keep
21 the witness from laying out money. But not when the witness
22 feels the need for real legal advice.
23 Q Now, when this issue came up of the so-called
24 secret agreement that didn't exist, what was your
25 involvement in representing the LMT, Minton and Brooks and
21
1 others in reference to that?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form, your
3 Honor. This secret agreement that didn't exist. He
4 just asked some direct questions as it's his direct
5 testimony.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 MR. DANDAR: Okay, I'm sorry.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q In reference to the issue of a secret agreement,
10 what did you do in reference to representing your clients
11 about that?
12 A During the time that I represented them, my
13 clients were never confronted with any issue that involved
14 their interests. It only came up with respect to my clients
15 as a subject of inquiry during their deposition.
16 Q And your clients, again, are who?
17 A At that time they were Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and
18 the LMT. And there were other people affiliated with the
19 LMT who I represented through the discovery process.
20 Q As part of this issue that you previously said was
21 raised by the Church of Scientology concerning a secret
22 agreement?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, we never
24 raised an issue of a secret agreement. We asked
25 questions about an agreement. The whole concept of
22
1 a secret agreement came out in Mr. Minton's
2 affidavit, after Ms. Brooks. So he keeps saying --
3 I object to the form.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 MR. DANDAR: I take issue with that but I
6 don't -- I'll just go ahead.
7 THE COURT: You don't need to go there.
8 MR. DANDAR: We don't need to go there.
9 A I know what agreement you're talking about.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q You tell me what the agreement I'm talking about
12 is then.
13 A It was alleged, and Mr. Minton stated in a radio
14 address sometime back '97, '98, ' 99, sometime like that,
15 that there was than an agreement that the bulk of the
16 proceeds of any wrongful death suit filed on behalf of the
17 estate of Lisa McPherson would be donated to some
18 organization. I believe it was specified to be a nonprofit
19 organization that was engaged in anti-cult activities. That
20 was the agreement that he had talked about in a non-judicial
21 setting, that I had seen a transcript offered in evidence,
22 and shown around in depositions.
23 And he had confirmed it, of course, in deposition
24 and, I don't know if, by that time, in court testimony, but
25 certainly in deposition that he had made the statement.
23
1 That was also the substance of the allegation at
2 the time -- times that it cropped up during the course of
3 the wrongful death case.
4 Q As his attorney, Mr. Merrett, did you observe any
5 difference in the way Mr. Minton -- or any difference in the
6 veracity of Mr. Minton's postings on the Internet or on the
7 radio or in newspaper interviews, compared with his
8 under-oath testimony?
9 A That would be information at least 50 percent of
10 which was gleaned through the attorney-client relationship
11 and through attorney-client conversations.
12 THE COURT: Are you going to waive it?
13 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, we would waive as to
14 any matters that are directly related to the
15 depositions in which Mr. Merrett appeared as the
16 representative for Bob Minton.
17 We do not waive as to any conversations that
18 are not directly related -- attorney-privileged
19 conversations that are not directly related to those
20 depositions or the preparation for those
21 depositions.
22 THE COURT: How about regarding the statement
23 he made on radio regarding this agreement?
24 MR. HOWIE: Obviously, his statement on radio
25 would not constitute a privileged communication. If
24
1 the nature of Mr. Dandar's question is merely to ask
2 Mr. Merrett to compare his radio broadcast to some
3 statement he made on deposition, I suspect that can
4 be done without revealing attorney-client privilege.
5 However, again, for purposes of these
6 depositions and any preparation for these
7 depositions, I think we must admit that privilege
8 has been waived through Mr. Minton's previous
9 testimony.
10 A I think I understand --
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 A -- to answer your question.
13 THE COURT: If there is anything you are not
14 going to answer because you think a privilege still
15 exists, you tell me, and anything Mr. Minton
16 continues to claim a privilege on his testimony, if
17 it exists, will be stricken.
18 A To answer your question, yes, there was a
19 difference in veracity between postings on the Internet and
20 comments in public and his testimony in deposition and in
21 court.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q So which one contained the truthful statements
24 more often than the other?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form, your
25
1 Honor.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Which one contained truthful
4 statements --
5 MR. DANDAR: It's probably not a good question.
6 I'll withdraw it.
7 THE COURT: Well, I understood it.
8 MR. DANDAR: Then I'll keep it.
9 A So far as I was able to discern, the statements
10 that he made in connection -- directly in connection with
11 the litigation in deposition and in testimony were truthful.
12 The public statements and Internet statements
13 were, to a substantial degree, calculated at needling
14 Scientology, sometimes, I had the impression, creating
15 disturbance or distraction for Scientology's Office of
16 Special Affairs and those folks.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q So radio, newspapers, speeches out in public,
19 Internet postings, he said and did things to rile up
20 Scientology?
21 A Correct.
22 THE COURT: Some of which were not exactly
23 true?
24 THE WITNESS: According to my understanding at
25 the time, yes.
26
1 For example, the radio statement was not
2 consistent with what I believed, from preparing him
3 for deposition and from sitting through his
4 deposition.
5 THE COURT: Well --
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Do you know --
8 THE COURT: -- the radio statement was untrue,
9 it was false.
10 THE WITNESS: Correct. That was my
11 understanding.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Do you know of any instance, Mr. Merrett, in the
14 May 24, 2000 deposition, when Bob Minton lied under oath?
15 A Well, I would have to review the deposition. But
16 there was no point -- nothing of which I had knowledge of
17 falsity at the time. I mean, so far as I knew then, he was
18 testifying truthfully.
19 I heard then, since, he recanted testimony about
20 the agreement. I don't know whether he testified about that
21 in the deposition or not. And I don't know which is true at
22 this point.
23 Q Let me put it this way. As you sat through the
24 deposition of any of Mr. -- any of Mr. Minton's depositions
25 and he told something in his deposition under oath that you
27
1 knew to be false, what is your practice? Would you have
2 stopped him, conferred with him and told him to straighten
3 it up? Or would you just keep letting your client lie under
4 oath?
5 A Well, my obligation, in my practice, is that at
6 the first opportunity, point out to the client that it
7 appears that he has lied and that's immoral and illegal, and
8 he should correct it. But by the time one can confer with
9 one's client, it is a past wrongful act, one may not
10 disclose it except to the client.
11 Q The deposition of Mr. Minton was taken again in
12 September; September 18 of 2001. You sat in on that and
13 objected to many of the questions. Do you recall that?
14 A I don't recall specifically the deposition. But
15 I'm sure the transcript accurately reflects my presence.
16 Q And in that deposition, on advice of counsel,
17 Mr. Minton raised the Fifth Amendment privilege many times
18 concerning money going anywhere that he knew about, do you
19 recall that?
20 A Yes. Yes.
21 Q And Mr. Moxon was taking the deposition?
22 A I believe -- well, I'm taking your word for it as
23 to the date. I'm taking your word for it as to Mr. Moxon
24 taking the deposition. I did sit in depositions with
25 Mr. Minton where he raised financial issues.
28
1 Q You will rely on the transcript, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And in the deposition of October 2001 taken by
4 Mr. Rosen, for the first time that I know of, anyway, of
5 Mr. Minton, you were there for that, as well, correct?
6 A If that is what the transcript reflects.
7 Q Okay. Now, throughout all of the depositions that
8 you attended where Mr. Minton was being deposed, all of them
9 now, do you know of one instance that Mr. Minton lied under
10 oath?
11 A No. Except as I testified earlier. If I reviewed
12 them now, based on the information that I have received
13 since this current hearing or these motions have cropped up,
14 there may be things which are in there which might now be of
15 questionable veracity. But so far as I knew at the time --
16 at the time that he was testifying, no.
17 Q Let's make it clearer. At the time he was
18 testifying, if you had heard him say something that was not
19 truthful, would you have conferred with him about that?
20 A Yes. But I don't recall that I ever did hear him
21 say anything --
22 Q Do you recall conferring with him about
23 anything --
24 THE COURT: Let him finish his answer. You
25 don't recall having him say anything ...
29
1 A -- that I believed or suspected to be false during
2 his deposition.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Let's go to Stacy Brooks. By the way, when you
6 represented Bob Minton, you represented LMT, you represented
7 Stacy Brooks, who was the client? All of them?
8 A It depends on the capacity in which they were
9 testifying. I did represent all three of those persons,
10 both simultaneously and actively, at different times. If
11 Mr. Minton was testifying as the -- as a representative, as
12 the president, which I think he did at least once as
13 president or chairman of the board of LMT, it would have
14 been in that capacity with whoever else attends it.
15 There was not a conflict among the interests of
16 the LMT, the interests of Ms. Brooks and the interests of
17 Mr. Minton.
18 Q During the time that you knew Mr. Minton and you
19 were his attorney and down here representing the Lisa
20 McPherson Trust, did you ever hear of Mr. Minton talking
21 about -- to other people, while you were present, so there
22 is no privilege -- his concern about tax evasion?
23 A Not that I recall.
24 Q Okay. Did you ever hear Mr. Minton talk about, to
25 other people, his concern about RICO charges being filed by
30
1 the Church of Scientology against him?
2 A I believe that he and Ms. Brooks expressed concern
3 that that was likely one of Scientology's goals, the purpose
4 of the collateral discovery being taken in the wrongful
5 death case was to conduct intelligence-gathering for
6 purposes of a subsequent RICO suit.
7 Q In fact, didn't Mr. Rosen -- do you recall
8 Mr. Rosen asking him questions at the October 2001
9 deposition, intimating or threatening directly that he had
10 committed criminal acts with the way he was bringing money
11 into the country?
12 A He may have. I don't recall.
13 Q I mean, you do recall in the deposition of
14 September 2001 by Mr. Moxon, as well as the deposition of
15 October 2001 by Mr. Rosen, that in both of those depositions
16 Mr. Minton raised the Fifth Amendment many times?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And isn't it true that a client -- your clients
19 will raise a Fifth Amendment to a question only on a good
20 faith basis, that they have a good faith basis to believe
21 they need to do that?
22 A Yes.
23 Q I mean, you don't advise your clients to
24 willy-nilly raise the Fifth Amendment just because they
25 don't want to answer a question?
31
1 A No.
2 Q Now let's go back to the secret agreement. Do you
3 recall preparing affidavits for your clients to file in the
4 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case concerning the absence of
5 a secret agreement?
6 A Yes. I say that. I recall that my clients did,
7 and I believe I drafted them.
8 Q Let me hand them up to you so you can take a look
9 at them.
10 MR. DANDAR: I don't know if this is already an
11 exhibit or not.
12 MR. FUGATE: I believe it is Defendant's 111,
13 your Honor.
14 MR. DANDAR: Is it?
15 MR. FUGATE: No. I thought it was the
16 affidavit he was talking about.
17 MR. DANDAR: I'll have it marked by the clerk
18 as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number --
19 THE CLERK: 44.
20 MR. DANDAR: -- 44.
21 THE COURT: Everybody is going so fast, it is
22 impossible for me to make notes.
23 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
24 THE COURT: It is all right.
25 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to go fast.
32
1 THE COURT: I am making some notes. Let me go
2 back to something you said.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
4 THE COURT: You indicated both Mr. Minton and
5 Ms. Brooks expressed concern the real purpose of the
6 extensive -- maybe you didn't say extensive -- of
7 the discovery being taken in this case was to
8 ultimately --
9 THE WITNESS: Was to gather intelligence to
10 file a civil RICO action against Mr. Minton.
11 THE COURT: I guess when I think of a
12 deposition, I don't think of it being intelligence.
13 Intelligence, to me, is something that you are
14 gathering covertly.
15 So when you use the word "intelligence," are
16 you meaning they were gathering whatever information
17 they could gather from the depositions?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Well --
22 THE COURT: Not some covert gathering out in
23 the hallway or something like that? I mean, in
24 other words, whatever they could learn in the
25 discovery?
33
1 THE WITNESS: The discovery was one component
2 of intelligence-gathering conducted by Scientology.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Are you aware of other components of
5 intelligence-gathering by Scientology other than the legal
6 process?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What is that?
9 A I know that -- I know personally that persons
10 hired by Scientology have followed me, when I have been in
11 this area, by automobile. I know that they have followed
12 other people who were affiliated with the Lisa McPherson
13 Trust while they were traveling by automobile, foot and
14 bicycle in this area.
15 I know that Scientology has had -- or had,
16 throughout the life of the Lisa McPherson Trust, both static
17 and mobile video surveillance of everybody coming and going
18 from the premises.
19 I mean, those are the ones I know of.
20 Q Did you ever discover something that appeared to
21 be a wire tap to the telephone lines of the Lisa McPherson
22 Trust?
23 A I was present when an unaccountable wire passing
24 from what appeared to be Scientology's trunk line into our
25 phone box was discovered -- or into the LMT phone box.
34
1 Q And what did you do about that?
2 A I -- I say I was present when it was discovered.
3 I'm not sure if I was present there on the sidewalk when it
4 was discovered. But I believe it was -- Mr. Ward was there.
5 And he has substantial amount of technical expertise. And I
6 told him that if it wasn't something that was going to
7 affect our telephone service, to just pull it out.
8 Q And what did he do?
9 A I believe he pulled it out.
10 Q All right.
11 THE COURT: I'm real stupid here. I don't know
12 anything about this. A trunk -- a trunk --
13 THE WITNESS: Trunk. A line, some kind of wire
14 coming from the direction of the Clearwater Bank
15 building. T-R-U-N-K.
16 THE COURT: Is this -- when I think trunk, I
17 think of something we pack clothes in or something
18 that goes in an automobile.
19 THE WITNESS: I'm thinking railroad line. A
20 trunk line is one that only goes in one direction.
21 THE COURT: It's a line, an actual phone line?
22 THE WITNESS: A wire. I don't know what a --
23 THE COURT: You found something going from -- a
24 trunk line to a phone line, which is a different
25 wire?
35
1 THE WITNESS: A wire coming from the
2 Clearwater -- from the direction of the Clearwater
3 Bank building, into the telephone junction box that
4 serviced the Lisa McPherson Trust building.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q And the Clearwater Bank building was a building
8 occupied and owned by the Church of Scientology. Correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q Now, look at Exhibit 44, a notice of filing
11 affidavits in support of plaintiff's motion to strike
12 witnesses from the defendant's witness list. Do you see
13 that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And take a look at the Grady Ward affidavit, the
16 first one. Who prepared that?
17 A I believe I did.
18 Q How can you tell?
19 A Mmm, the type face --
20 THE COURT: Wait, counselor. Where? What are
21 you looking at now?
22 MR. DANDAR: 44, Plaintiff's. Right here. I'm
23 sorry. I'll look up here, Judge, because you are
24 taking copious notes.
25 THE COURT: I'm trying, but sometimes you-all
36
1 get so far ahead of me and I can't do it.
2 THE WITNESS: Judge, this is the first
3 attachment which is the affidavit of Grady Ward. It
4 is about four pages back.
5 THE COURT: All right. I see it.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Mr. Ward was a contractor for the Lisa McPherson
8 Trust. Is that right?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And how can you tell you prepared this affidavit?
11 A It appears to be an affidavit prepared by me based
12 on the type face and size and the way that the style of the
13 case is set up.
14 Q Okay. Let me -- well, of course we won't have
15 enough time to do this.
16 A As well as the language of the jurat at the
17 commencement of the affidavit.
18 Q Okay. When you say the style of the caption, are
19 you talking about up here (indicating)?
20 A Yes, where the identity of the court and the case
21 number are affixed in the upper right-hand corner of the
22 first page of the affidavit.
23 Q Okay. And the jurat is at the end where Mr. --
24 A No, the jurat actually begins at the beginning of
25 the affidavit.
37
1 Q "Before me, the undersigned authority."
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is that your language?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. Let's turn to -- well, let's turn to
6 Mr. Minton's --
7 MR. DANDAR: Okay, where is Dee at? Could you
8 assist me, please?
9 THE COURT: Is this the affidavit that is in
10 evidence?
11 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
12 MR. FUGATE: I can't see what it is, Judge, but
13 I think it is 111. And --
14 MR. WEINBERG: There are two of them there,
15 your Honor. One is in evidence and one is not,
16 apparently.
17 THE COURT: Well, I have a 111, 112 and 113.
18 MR. FUGATE: 111 is Mr. Minton. 112 is Ms. --
19 or Mrs. Liebreich. And 113 is Mr. Dandar.
20 MR. WEINBERG: 111 is one of the ones there.
21 But in this thing he just filed he has two Minton
22 affidavits, one of which is in evidence and one of
23 which is not.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 MR. WEINBERG: One of which is 111, and the
38
1 other one is not in evidence.
2 (A discussion was held off the record.)
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q So it's your -- Mr. Merrett, the way you do your
5 affidavits up in Jacksonville, you put the name of the court
6 from the center over to the right in the affidavit, correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And the jurat, "Before me, the undersigned
9 authority," this is the way you do your jurats in your
10 office?
11 A Yes. And what is distinctive about it is the
12 omission of the "personally known" language, which I always
13 omit when I'm having them sign not under my direct
14 supervision, because of the -- of the risk that -- sometimes
15 I have seen notaries just circle "Personally known," when
16 they didn't know the guys from Adam's ox, and by omitting
17 that part and leaving blank "for identification" it insures
18 the notary will see identification and the jurat will be in
19 proper form.
20 Q Now, this particular affidavit is of Mr. Minton,
21 correct?
22 A As custodian of the records of the LMT, not of him
23 personally.
24 Q And you prepared this affidavit?
25 A Yes. I'm sure I did.
39
1 Q All right. Turn to the next Robert Minton
2 affidavit. This is one for him personally, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And this one, was this prepared by you?
5 A Yes.
6 Q It is because you can tell by the way you have the
7 format?
8 A Well, it's that. And looking at the two
9 affidavits, I recall drafting two separate affidavits
10 because of Mr. Minton's dual roles. And I was attempting to
11 cover all of the bases which I regarded as spurious under
12 which he might be dragged into the litigation for purposes
13 of discovery.
14 Q Okay. Why did you regard it as spurious?
15 A Because he has no information about the death of
16 the girl or about anything else that is actually pertinent
17 to the wrongful death case.
18 Q Well, let me ask you this. You were Mr. Minton's
19 attorney for the year --
20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I have to ask. I'm
21 here, and I know I drive you crazy, and I apologize.
22 But this affidavit here, this one that is attached
23 now to -- is this -- what is this?
24 THE WITNESS: Plaintiff's 44.
25 MR. DANDAR: Plaintiff's 44.
40
1 THE COURT: Is this a "P"?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it's a "P."
3 THE COURT: Okay. I see now. You don't write
4 very good.
5 MR. DANDAR: I really don't. And the nuns that
6 taught me how to write always told me that.
7 THE COURT: Now that I know what this is, this
8 Plaintiff's 44, the affidavit of Robert Minton that
9 is two pages that I am looking at -- well, actually
10 it's three pages, this is also in evidence as
11 Defendant's 111, is that correct?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Yes.
13 MR. FUGATE: Okay, I'll --
14 THE COURT: Now I have got it. Now I'm up to
15 date. Okay. Go ahead.
16 MR. DANDAR: This was prepared by Mr. Merrett.
17 THE WITNESS: Correct.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q How did Mr. Minton get it?
20 A Either -- it would have been one of three ways.
21 Either I E-mailed it to him and had him print out an
22 original, sign it, fax it back or Fed Ex it back, or I Fed
23 Ex'd it to him so it could be executed and Fed Ex'd back, or
24 may have -- from the quality of document -- I doubt it, it
25 may have been faxed to him for signature and faxed and Fed
41
1 Ex'd.
2 Q So you are pretty positive this was not done in
3 Clearwater?
4 A Yes. For the one thing, the notary is a New
5 Hampshire notary.
6 Q How do you know that?
7 A The notary stamp on the third page, if you can
8 read the -- the middle line, you see "C-New," then you can
9 make out, even on my copy, an "H" at the beginning of the
10 next word.
11 Q I think that says "New Hampshire."
12 A Yes.
13 Q And this was signed by Mr. Minton on December 13
14 of 2000, correct?
15 A A New Hampshire notary public says so.
16 Q All right. Okay. Now --
17 THE COURT: You would have E-mailed it, Fed
18 Ex'd it, or what was the third?
19 THE WITNESS: Faxed it. But that is unlikely,
20 based on the quality of the copy.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Now, did you also send one to Stacy Brooks?
24 A I prepared one for Stacy Brooks.
25 Q And is this the one right after Mr. Minton's
42
1 second one, this is Stacy Brooks', is this something --
2 again, your format, where the caption of the case, the name
3 of the court, is to the right of center line, and the jurat
4 is the jurat you use?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And what about the notary?
7 A That appears to be the same New Hampshire notary.
8 Q Also dated December 13, 2000?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Now, according to the notice of filing, I
11 am the one that filed these affidavits of Ward, two of
12 Minton, and one of Brooks, one of Keller, on December 14,
13 2000.
14 How did I get these affidavits?
15 A I believe I delivered them to you or had them
16 delivered to you.
17 Q Do you recall coming in to my office?
18 A I was in your office on a number of occasions.
19 Q Okay.
20 A But I would think that -- I think that either at
21 this same time or almost immediately thereafter, I was -- I
22 had filed or was filing motions for protective order on
23 behalf of these people. I believe I used these same
24 affidavits in filings I made on their behalf, because their
25 interests in being deposed and your interests not having to
43
1 sit through their depositions were conterminous.
2 Q Okay. Was it the fact that Mr. Moxon and his
3 client, the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization,
4 Inc., were conducting discovery after discovery after
5 discovery of the financial information of Mr. Minton,
6 Ms. Brooks and the Lisa McPherson Trust that caused them the
7 most concern?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
9 Objection as to the question. I mean, it's a
10 leading question. He's on direct. Was it the fact
11 that such and such caused him all this concern.
12 That is a very leading, suggestive question.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 A I wouldn't say that. There were also --
15 THE COURT: See how unleading it was?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Apparently -- apparently I stand
17 corrected.
18 A Yes, as well as the other people who are named in
19 this motion that are Plaintiff's 44, and other people who
20 were not named in there who were at various times bumped by
21 the discovery train, were profoundly concerned about privacy
22 issues and about personal safety issues unrelated to
23 financial questions.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Okay. Why were they concerned for their safety?
44
1 A Scientology has a history of --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
3 A -- practices.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Foundation. Personal knowledge,
5 "Scientology has a history."
6 THE COURT: I don't think so. This is what was
7 their concern. That is what we're -- what we're
8 involved with here. It didn't say that is what was
9 true. It is what was their concern, which is the
10 same reason that would give them basis to lie or not
11 lie.
12 MR. WEINBERG: When he said other people, it is
13 based on hearsay, as well.
14 THE COURT: He ought to know what -- he's
15 trying to tell us, I think, what his clients' fears
16 were.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I thought the question was other
18 people, other than Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. That
19 is what I thought I heard.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q What about Mr. Minton, was he afraid or concerned,
23 or however you would phrase it, about Scientology and
24 Scientology's discovery?
25 A Was he concerned about it?
45
1 Q Yes.
2 A Yes.
3 Q How much? How -- can you quantify it?
4 A It's difficult to quantify it because, as I have
5 told you before, Mr. Minton is very matter of fact. In
6 fact, he is admirably cool, for the most part, regardless of
7 what is going on. So you really couldn't tell -- most
8 people couldn't tell, including me, whether a given thing
9 upset him more or less than the fact that he didn't get the
10 wine he ordered at supper. He's pretty even.
11 Q Let me see if I can give you an example. Do you
12 recall the Stacy Brooks deposition of June 2000?
13 A Not specifically.
14 Q Do you recall the Stacy Brooks deposition where
15 she was asked a question about donations to the Lisa
16 McPherson Trust?
17 A I recall that she was asked about donations during
18 the deposition.
19 Q Do you recall Stacy Brooks answering that question
20 rather than pleading the Fifth Amendment?
21 A I don't specifically recall that.
22 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was having a mental
23 lapse here. Would you tell me what you just said?
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Do you recall Stacy Brooks, in the June 2000
46
1 deposition, answering the question of Mr. Moxon about
2 donations to the Lisa McPherson Trust, rather than pleading
3 the Fifth Amendment?
4 A I don't specifically recall that.
5 Q Were you ever fired by Mr. Minton?
6 A Are you -- are you using "fired" as an obnoxious
7 term of art, or just as a way of saying termination of a
8 relationship? Of a professional relationship?
9 Q Well, it may not have been termination, it may
10 have been just "Get out of town, go back to Jacksonville and
11 I'll call you when I need you later," something like that.
12 Termination or leave town?
13 A No.
14 Q Okay. So it's --
15 A I mean, now, the relationship was terminated.
16 Ms. Brooks notified me, I think she sent me a letter, maybe
17 an E-Mail, that said that -- that she and the LMT were
18 retaining other counsel.
19 By that point, which I think was early this year,
20 I'm not sure -- well, I know it was this year, I think early
21 this year -- by that point I don't believe I was still
22 representing Mr. Minton in any active way.
23 Q Okay. Do you have any recollection at all of
24 Mr. Minton becoming extremely upset following the deposition
25 of Stacy Brooks, because she mentioned in the deposition of
47
1 June 2000 that the Lisa McPherson Trust received a $300,000
2 donation from Operation Clambake?
3 A No.
4 Q When you sat in on the deposition of Stacy Brooks
5 as her attorney in June of 2000, do you recall any instance
6 where she lied under oath?
7 A I believe that the answer to that question either
8 way would implicate Ms. Brooks' attorney-client privilege.
9 THE COURT: Counsel?
10 MR. McGOWAN: Certainly to the extent that
11 she's recanted in her affidavit, I think the
12 privilege is waived. By the question, I don't know
13 what -- if it goes to that or to something else.
14 THE COURT: Well, I don't know, either,
15 counsel. But her credibility is certainly at issue
16 here, and she has recanted, then she said she didn't
17 tell any other lies. So it would seem to me that
18 whatever it is that she's either got to waive it or
19 I have got to strike her testimony. I don't get it
20 here.
21 MR. McGOWAN: I agree. And --
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. McGOWAN: And she -- she waives it or she
24 doesn't waive it.
25 THE WITNESS: Am I to answer?
48
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 A I do not recall what the subject matter or
3 question or answer was. But I know, during the first
4 deposition Ms. Brooks gave, which was attended by Judge
5 Beach, she did give an answer which I believed at the time
6 to be false.
7 At the first opportunity, I was quite agitated
8 with her because that is not something for which I have any
9 great love or patience and explained to her that she either
10 needed to correct the testimony or brace herself for the
11 possibility that her testimony would be found to be false
12 and there might be consequences.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q What was false?
15 A I don't recall.
16 Q And what did she do after receiving your
17 instructions or advice?
18 A Well, she became even more agitated than I was.
19 So I was then attempting to calm her down. But I don't
20 recall whether or not she fixed whatever the testimony was.
21 Q Did you ever learn that the LMT received a
22 $300,000 payment, donation, whatever, from Operation
23 Clambake?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you have anything to do with securing or
49
1 arranging for that payment?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What did you do?
4 A I located an individual over the Internet to
5 operate as a go-between, severing initial direct connect
6 between the LMT and Operation Clambake in order to protect
7 Operation Clambake and whatever source of the money was from
8 discovery by Scientology.
9 Q And who was that?
10 A Who was what?
11 Q Who was this straw man?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q Wait a minute. What did the role -- what role did
14 this third party play?
15 A The third party telephoned Operation Clambake, I
16 think it's Andreas Heldal-Lund --
17 THE COURT: Is this a real person, by the way?
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
19 THE COURT: I'm so confused about Operation
20 Clambake. I thought this morning I was told --
21 THE WITNESS: Operation Clambake is a website
22 owned and operated by Andreas Heldal-Lund.
23 THE COURT: That is right, Mr. Minton did say
24 it was a corporation.
25 MR. DANDAR: Recently.
50
1 THE COURT: You believe Andreas Lund, whatever
2 it is, is a real live person?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
4 THE COURT: Who is a Norwegian man?
5 THE WITNESS: So far as I know, he's Norwegian.
6 THE COURT: All right. Who is in some fashion
7 or another president, chairman of the board,
8 something, in Operation Clambake?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q And how do you know he's real? How do you know
13 that is not a fictitious name used by somebody that doesn't
14 want to know who they are?
15 A I don't.
16 THE COURT: No. That is a dumb question.
17 MR. DANDAR: I know.
18 THE COURT: The person doesn't want to know who
19 they are? The person doesn't want somebody else to
20 know who they are?
21 MR. DANDAR: I like that last question.
22 A I -- people speak about Mr. Lund as though he were
23 real.
24 I have chatted with a person who claims to be
25 Mr. Lund over the Internet. He is not spoken of as a
51
1 legendary or fictitious person.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Did you ever speak to him over the phone?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you ever meet him in person?
6 A I don't think so.
7 Q So what did this third party do with Mr. Lund?
8 A The third party contacted Mr. Lund and said he was
9 speaking on behalf of people in Europe who wished to donate
10 money to the Lisa McPherson Trust, but for obvious reasons
11 did not wish to be identified as supporters of the Lisa
12 McPherson Trust and wanted Mr. Lund to handle the actual
13 transfer of the money, to receive a check, to deposit the
14 check, and then to write a check to the Lisa McPherson
15 Trust.
16 The individual also called the Lisa McPherson
17 Trust and advised Ms. Brooks that this was being arranged,
18 and that the -- Mr. Lund or someone, I don't know whether it
19 was identified as Mr. Lund, but that somebody would be
20 calling to notify her of the impending transfer.
21 Q And this is someone you just met in a chat room on
22 the Internet?
23 A Yes.
24 Q How could you trust somebody in a chat room on the
25 Internet?
52
1 A Well, there is nothing to steal, break or run away
2 with in a transaction like that.
3 Q He was just going to relay the message to
4 Operation Clambake?
5 A Correct.
6 Q He wasn't going to get the money to give to
7 Operation Clambake?
8 A Correct. The money was being handled by Operation
9 Clambake -- or by Mr. Lund, whoever it was.
10 Q When did you place this contact to the person in
11 the chat room?
12 A I don't know. It would have been probably within
13 a week of the time that Mr. Lund was contacted.
14 THE COURT: I'm really stupid now. How do you
15 talk to somebody on the website in a chat room that
16 everybody doesn't know about it?
17 MR. DANDAR: You can have a secret --
18 THE WITNESS: It is called a DCC direct client
19 connection. And there is nothing to it. You just
20 type in "/DCC, The Judge," and then my computer and
21 your computer are hooked up and we're typing in back
22 and forth and it is only going between our
23 computers, not running through the server.
24 THE COURT: How do you get somebody? How do
25 you get somebody that can do something very covert
53
1 involving money from Norway -- I mean how do you
2 get --
3 THE WITNESS: Basically.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: "if you know anybody, have them
6 contact me. I'll be on the chat room."
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Well, I need to -- do your best to pinpoint the
9 month and year. I mean, she talked about it -- Ms. Brooks
10 talked about it in her June 2000 deposition. How soon
11 before that was it?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, she may have. I
13 mean, are you representing that she did?
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Because I don't have that
16 committed to memory.
17 MR. DANDAR: I do.
18 A I don't know.
19 THE COURT: I don't have her depositions at
20 all, so --
21 A I don't know what the time span was between the --
22 her deposition and the transfer of money. I do know that
23 the transfer of the money was delayed after it was received
24 by Mr. Lund -- or I say I know that. I was told that.
25
54
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Could it have been more than a month before her
3 deposition?
4 A It could have been, but --
5 Q But you don't know?
6 A I don't know.
7 Q All right. I understand. That is all right.
8 Did you use any code names?
9 A The individual who was handling the message
10 identified himself as the "Fat Man."
11 Q Is that right? And did you come up with that
12 name?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Why did you come up with the name the "Fat Man"?
15 A I guess I was thinking about Raymond Chandler, the
16 "Thin Man" novels. I don't know.
17 Q Mr. Merrett, did I come up with the name the "Fat
18 Man"?
19 A Not in connection with that transaction or
20 otherwise, that I know of.
21 Q Was I ever connected with this transaction?
22 A Not --
23 Q Operation --
24 A Not that I know of.
25 Q Operation Clambake?
55
1 A Not that I know of.
2 Q The "Fat Man" or anything like that?
3 A No. But you need to understand that I don't know
4 what the next circle out in the transaction was, which is to
5 say where the money came from.
6 Q You don't know --
7 THE COURT: Well, if I were to tell you that
8 Mr. Minton has testified that the money came from
9 him, would you know what the next circle out was?
10 THE WITNESS: Mmm, investment banking would be
11 my guess. I think that is where his money comes
12 from.
13 THE COURT: Well, you did not know this money
14 was coming from Mr. Minton?
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Mr. Merrett, this is a very important area. So
18 you did not know that the money that was being transferred
19 to Operation Clambake through the "Fat Man" was coming
20 really from the bank account of Mr. Minton?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q Did you have conversations with Mr. Minton about
23 how this money --
24 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I
25 don't get it. See, I don't know, I'm out of my
56
1 league here because I don't understand this.
2 This term the "Fat Man" --
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am?
4 THE COURT: -- I don't understand. Does he
5 become -- is he the person you are communicating
6 with? Or is he the sender of the money from
7 Norway --
8 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am, all this person did
9 was communicate respectively with the LMT -- so far
10 as I know, with the LMT and with Mr. Heldal-Lund in
11 Norway, advised Mr. Lund that people in Europe
12 wanted to send money to be transferred by Mr. Lund
13 to the LMT, and advised LMT that Mr. Lund would be
14 receiving money from people in Europe and sending it
15 to the LMT so they could make whatever banking
16 arrangement they needed to make to transfer money
17 once it was received by Mr. Heldal-Lund.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q This third party, is the --
21 THE COURT: Wouldn't that be awful? I could
22 never work for the FBI or CIA, I would always be
23 going, "Huh? What? I don't get it." Maybe one
24 gets trained and they understand it better.
25 Go ahead.
57
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did the person you contacted in the chat room, did
3 they have a name?
4 A Not that I know.
5 Q Did the person in the chat room, did you tell that
6 person that he or she should use the name for themselves --
7 herself, himself, as the "Fat Man"?
8 A Yes.
9 Q So when Heldal-Lund gets a phone call from this
10 person, this person identified himself, herself, as the "Fat
11 Man"?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right. Now, who calls the LMT to say it's
14 time to send the money?
15 A I don't understand your question.
16 Q All right. Did someone call the LMT and say, "Go
17 ahead and send the money, I contacted Operation Clambake?"
18 Did the "Fat Man" call LMT?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And who did the "Fat Man" talk to?
21 A I think it was Ms. Brooks, but I'm not sure.
22 Q Okay. And, well, what do you know? I mean, what
23 do you know about who is the person that put in progress the
24 transfer of the money to Operation Clambake?
25 A I don't know. What I know is that Mr. Minton and
58
1 Ms. Brooks said that there were people in Europe who wanted
2 to send money who didn't want to be identified.
3 Q That is what they told you?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And until the Judge told you today that that money
6 was Mr. Minton's money, is that the first time you heard
7 that?
8 A Well, no. I mean, Scientology has been saying it
9 for a year and a half.
10 Q When, if any -- was there ever a time when
11 Mr. Minton told you, "Oh, by the way, John, that money that
12 came in from Operation Clambake was really my money"?
13 A No.
14 Q Does Ms. Brooks ever tell you, "Oh, by the way,
15 John, the money that we arranged to get from Operation
16 Clambake is really Bob Minton's money"?
17 A No.
18 Q So when she testified in her deposition in June of
19 2000 that this was a donation from Operation Clambake, you
20 thought she was telling the truth?
21 A Correct.
22 Q It was just a charade?
23 THE COURT: She said she was telling the truth.
24 She said Mr. Minton didn't tell her, either.
25 A And I don't think that the testimony was that it
59
1 was a donation from Operation Clambake. I think it was
2 communicated to her that this wasn't Andreas Heldal-Lund's
3 money, it was money he was getting from somebody in Europe.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q When was that communicated to Ms. Brooks?
6 A Sometime after the initial telephone call from the
7 "Fat Man."
8 Q But she knew that the money that was coming from
9 Operation Clambake was not money that belonged to Operation
10 Clambake before her June 2000 deposition?
11 A I don't know that for sure. My understanding is
12 that Heldal-Lund told her that it wasn't his money.
13 Q Okay.
14 A But I wasn't party to that conversation.
15 Q Now, in that same deposition, Ms. Brooks talked
16 about --
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, could I ask you one
18 question?
19 When Mr. Minton told you that there were people
20 in Europe that wanted to contribute money to -- was
21 it Lisa McPherson, or was it to LMT?
22 THE WITNESS: The trust, LMT.
23 THE COURT: LMT? Okay.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q When Ms. Brooks talked about the LMT getting a
60
1 direct anonymous donation of $500,000 from some anonymous
2 source in Europe, when she said that in her deposition, did
3 you know in advance that the LMT had received a $500,000
4 anonymous donation?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, again, are you
6 representing that somewhere in this deposition in
7 June is where she said that?
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Unfortunately, I don't have
9 the depositions with me.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then I object to the form.
11 If -- if he wants to ask a question about does he
12 have any recollection of some $500,000, I have no
13 problem with that. But --
14 THE COURT: I think I'm going to overrule your
15 objection. If it turns out it wasn't in the June
16 deposition, then it isn't. I have to assume if the
17 lawyer made notes, he knows what he's talking about.
18 I don't have it. I looked myself. I don't have
19 hers. I have Mr. Minton's and I have
20 Ms. Liebreich's. I don't have Ms. Brooks'
21 deposition. Quite frankly, I don't really want to
22 read all her deposition.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, the only -- the real
24 objection is asking Mr. Merrett about something that
25 Ms. Brooks said in a deposition with some precision,
61
1 I mean, when he doesn't -- he's obviously said he
2 has no specific recollection of any of this.
3 THE COURT: I understand what these questions
4 are all about. Quite frankly, I think the fashion
5 in which they are being asked are appropriate.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
7 THE COURT: I mean, this is not exact. This
8 is -- this is a witness who is being asked what he
9 knew.
10 And I know, most likely, where -- or I suspect
11 where counsel is going with that, it doesn't require
12 exactness.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Fine, your Honor. I just
14 wanted --
15 THE COURT: You made your objection. It is
16 overruled. How is that?
17 MR. WEINBERG: That is fine.
18 MR. DANDAR: Just give me a second, Judge, and
19 see what I can --
20 THE WITNESS: Judge, if it is helpful, I'm
21 answering these questions on the same assumption you
22 are operating, that Mr. Dandar is saying.
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 MR. WEINBERG: As long as we do that, that is
25 fine.
62
1 THE COURT: Yes. Okay. I mean, I guess in
2 some deposition -- he said it's the June deposition.
3 If it's not in the June deposition or any
4 deposition, why, this is really a waste of time.
5 MR. WEINBERG: And if I knew -- I just can't
6 keep them straight in my mind.
7 THE COURT: I know for a fact there was a
8 $500,000 payment made to LMT. And I know for a fact
9 there was a $300,000 payment made to LMT. And I
10 know for a fact Mr. Minton lied about both of them
11 on his depositions. I know for a fact he didn't
12 clear it up on his affidavit. And I know for a fact
13 the first time it was cleared up was after the
14 testimony here.
15 I have to assume that all came from something
16 that I read. So I assume it is in all this
17 somewhere. That is why I'm saying, that is
18 enough --
19 MR. WEINBERG: So that is fine.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm going to print this
22 out, great technology that we have today.
23 THE WITNESS: Actually, if it's not out of
24 school, Judge, I think we resolved that issue,
25 Mr. Dandar.
63
1 THE COURT: I think we have, too, but if you
2 keep getting objections --
3 MR. WEINBERG: You won't get any more.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I just wanted that cleared up.
6 MR. DANDAR: All right.
7 THE COURT: If you were trying to impeach him
8 from a deposition, I would say let's go to the date
9 and page and the line. This is not that.
10 MR. WEINBERG: That is fine.
11 THE COURT: So go on ahead, Mr. Dandar.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Mr. Merrett, in the September 7, 2001 --
14 September 7, 2001 deposition of Stacy Brooks that you
15 appeared at as her counsel, on Page 62, which is cut off at
16 the top here, but -- and you can't even see it, I can't see
17 it -- there we go.
18 Apparently there was a time in the summer when
19 Mr. Minton went to a hospital up in New Hampshire, do you
20 recall that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And Ms. Brooks was asked by Mr. Moxon: "And when
23 you were there, did you ask him who these anonymous checks
24 came from --"
25 She said: "No."
64
1 "Question: -- that you had testified about."
2 So there is a deposition before September of 2001,
3 which I'm telling the Court and everyone that I believe is
4 June of 2000.
5 "-- that you had testified about, the $500,000,"
6 that should not be "Zoe," I don't know what that is " -- and
7 the 300,000?"
8 And she said: "No, I didn't talk to him about
9 that.
10 "Did you ask him if he had any agreement with the
11 people that had given him this money?
12 "No.
13 "Why not?
14 "Well, he was in the hospital. He almost died.
15 It wasn't appropriate to be discussing business at the
16 time."
17 Now, this is September 7 of 2001. Did you,
18 Mr. Merrett, know that the $300,000 from Operation Clambake
19 and the $500,000 from anonymous sources in Europe, all that
20 was Mr. Minton's money?
21 A No. I had no information about that.
22 Q Did you have any conversations with Mr. Minton
23 about who in Europe would send to LMT anonymously $500,000?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Minton deny that the
65
1 $500,000 was from an anonymous source?
2 A I don't believe I ever heard the subject
3 discussed.
4 Q Okay. Did you ever hear Mr. Minton say, before
5 the September 7, 2001 deposition of Ms. Brooks, that the
6 $300,000 from Operation Clambake really wasn't from
7 Operation Clambake?
8 A Well, you are sort of, I guess, getting ahead
9 of -- behind yourself. Nobody thought it was from Operation
10 Clambake except in an immediate physical sense.
11 Q Okay.
12 THE COURT: Who did -- who did everybody think
13 it was from? These anonymous donors?
14 THE WITNESS: Somebody in Europe. Yes, ma'am.
15 THE COURT: In other words, there were folks
16 that might have wanted to -- in your mind, that
17 might have wanted to contribute who did not want the
18 Church of Scientology to know they were
19 contributing?
20 THE WITNESS: Correct.
21 THE COURT: So when you were told there were
22 anonymous sources who wished to make contributions,
23 this didn't surprise you that they might want to
24 remain anonymous?
25 THE WITNESS: No. It surprised me that
66
1 Mr. Minton had been up front about any money that he
2 had put into it.
3 I mean, if it had been me, I would have thrown
4 a bag of cash over the transom.
5 THE COURT: So whereas in most cases when we
6 think, well, gee, somebody wanted to contribute
7 $500,000 anonymously, or $300,000 anonymously, or
8 any amount of money anonymously, because of your
9 knowledge of people's -- I'm not saying it is
10 true -- but of people's fears about the Church of
11 Scientology knowing they were making contributions
12 to either LMT or the Lisa McPherson Trust, to you,
13 as a lawyer, it did not sound surprising that people
14 would make those kind of contributions anonymously?
15 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. My expectation would
16 be any contributions made would be anonymously,
17 whether it was five bucks or 500,000.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Okay, Mr. Merrett, going back to the May of 2000
20 deposition of Mr. Minton, he testified about how much money
21 he had given me in reference to the Lisa McPherson case,
22 that he personally wrote checks for $1,050,000.
23 You were present when he said that, right?
24 A I was present when he testified to whatever
25 amount. I have heard that amount before from Mr. Minton.
67
1 Q You heard that amount before?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you recall Mr. Minton giving me a check from a
4 bank called UBS that had nobody's name on it except mine?
5 A No.
6 Q For $500,000 in May of 2000?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Minton that
9 he had given me a check for $500,000?
10 A No.
11 Q Mr. Merrett, there came a time when the Court
12 ordered the LMT to produce records to the Church of
13 Scientology. Do you recall that?
14 A There was more than one time and more than one set
15 of records.
16 Q Okay. In fact, you were representing LMT when the
17 Court appointed a special master, Michael Keane, to come
18 into the offices of the LMT and look at the computers and
19 all of the books and records?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q All right. Well, here is something -- maybe I am
22 messed up on the dates but I'm not sure. This is just a
23 very general question. Forget about dates.
24 A Okay.
25 Q Okay? Mr. Merrett, did you ever advise Stacy
68
1 Brooks how to lie in her deposition?
2 A No.
3 Q I don't mean to be insulting but I just have to
4 ask you this.
5 A No. What -- given the considerations that the
6 clients had expressed, what I told Mr. Brooks and --
7 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, in preparing to testify for the
8 deposition, was that they could answer the question
9 truthfully, they could plead the Fifth, they could refuse to
10 answer the question and litigate the issue of relevance and
11 discoverability.
12 And I also told them, made it clear to them, which
13 is an accurate statement of the law, that they were not
14 obliged to help their interrogator through the
15 interrogation.
16 But that is the only advice that I gave them, or
17 anybody else, in preparing for deposition.
18 Q That last point of advice is what most lawyers
19 tell their client, is just answer the question that is
20 asked?
21 A Exactly.
22 Q Don't volunteer?
23 A Exactly.
24 Q Well, let me just tell you what I'm looking at so
25 you'll know why I'm asking these questions. All right? And
69
1 I'll be glad to give you a copy. Unfortunately, this is --
2 it's in evidence. It is Ms. Brooks' affidavit dated --
3 well, son of a gun -- it is the second affidavit in this
4 case. It is 35 paragraphs long.
5 THE COURT: I may have it.
6 MR. DANDAR: April 29, 2002.
7 THE COURT: What page are you looking at?
8 MR. DANDAR: Paragraph 27.
9 THE COURT: If it is not something I have
10 written all over, I'll let him look at mine. But --
11 but it is so I can't give him mine.
12 MR. DANDAR: All right, I'll let him look at
13 the one I got off the Internet because --
14 A Which paragraph?
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q 27. Read it out loud, please.
17 A "John Merrett represented me at this deposition
18 and knew that I was testifying falsely. Prior to my
19 deposition, he had coached me regarding how to falsely
20 answer questions about the source of LMT funds. Mr. Merrett
21 had also advised me to leave unedited video footage from the
22 LMT in the hallway and it would be 'taken care of.' I
23 directed that they be put there and I never saw them again.
24 I was also aware that several hard drives were removed from
25 computers in LMT prior to the special master's inspection of
70
1 the LMT."
2 Q Is that the end of Paragraph 27?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right. Is any of that true?
5 A Well, some of it, I have no way of knowing that it
6 is true. Do you want me to go through it?
7 Q Go through it sentence by sentence.
8 A The first sentence, "John Merrett represented me
9 at this deposition and knew I was testifying falsely," it is
10 correct at one of her depositions she testified to something
11 which I believed to be false and about which I upbraided her
12 at the first opportunity. However, I did not know she was
13 going to testify falsely.
14 Q Okay.
15 A "Prior to my deposition, he coached me how to
16 falsely answer questions regarding the source of LMT funds."
17 If what is meant by that is that I knowingly
18 coached her to testify falsely, that is incorrect. She has
19 said to me, though, that that is not what she meant, that
20 what she meant was that I had prepared her for the
21 deposition and that the information that I had received with
22 which to prepare her was false.
23 Q What information is that?
24 A Whatever the information is she's alleging was
25 falsely attested to in the deposition.
71
1 Q Well --
2 A In other words, she -- she told me that she did
3 not mean by that statement to say that I had knowingly or
4 purposely prepared her to give false testimony. But,
5 rather, that I had prepared her to give testimony which was,
6 as a matter of fact, false.
7 THE COURT: When did she have this conversation
8 with you?
9 THE WITNESS: I want to say it -- it would have
10 been this week, Judge, sometime during the day, one
11 day this week.
12 THE COURT: She called you on the phone or
13 something?
14 THE WITNESS: No, I had talked to Mr. Minton on
15 Sunday. And I wanted to talk to Ms. Brooks but she
16 wasn't around. I wanted to talk to her just to see
17 how she was doing.
18 And when I was finally able to catch up with
19 her was when -- one afternoon during the week. And
20 I -- I told her that I was not particularly thrilled
21 about being accused of suborning perjury. And she
22 said that that wasn't what she had meant.
23 THE COURT: What is it exactly she had meant?
24 THE WITNESS: What she said was the testimony
25 she gave was false -- or she gave some false
72
1 testimony during the preparation of the deposition,
2 and I was the person that prepared her to testify.
3 THE COURT: But you did not know she was
4 testifying falsely?
5 THE WITNESS: Correct. After the fact, there
6 was one statement she made in the course of the
7 deposition that I believed to be false and I
8 remonstrated her about it at a break.
9 THE COURT: These would have been two different
10 things, obviously.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
12 THE COURT: Well, it would seem as if you knew
13 something was false and you upbraided her for it --
14 THE WITNESS: Correct.
15 THE COURT: -- as you said. That would be
16 something you knew was false, you knew she had
17 testified falsely, and you brought it to her
18 attention.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
20 THE COURT: If she is saying she -- she
21 testified about something falsely and you helped her
22 but you didn't know it was false, these couldn't be
23 the same two things, the same thing.
24 THE WITNESS: Correct.
25 THE COURT: Right?
73
1 THE WITNESS: Correct.
2 THE COURT: All right. Now, as I recall in the
3 course of the testimony -- and I could be wrong, I
4 have heard so much, it's getting on to that magic
5 hour -- my recollection of what Ms. Brooks testified
6 in this hearing that she testified falsely about was
7 this agreement, the agreement -- I think we are now
8 calling it a secret agreement.
9 MR. DANDAR: We are calling it a secret
10 agreement.
11 THE COURT: But because we have an agreement,
12 we have a couple things we are talking about. It's
13 that part of the issue in this case as to whether or
14 not there was ever an agreement between Mr. Minton
15 and the estate of Lisa McPherson that the bulk of,
16 substantial portion, vast amount, nobody knows
17 exactly, would be given to an anti-cult organization
18 which could have been FACTNet, could have been LMT
19 or could have been some other one, that is the basic
20 agreement. Like I said -- I have said, there is no
21 agreement. But that is what we're calling the
22 secret agreement.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
24 THE COURT: Now, what I recall is that
25 Ms. Brooks said she testified falsely about it in
74
1 her deposition. So I'm going to assume that she
2 said in her deposition it didn't exist because she
3 now says it did exist.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, by application of
5 reason, she would have had to have said it didn't
6 exist because my understanding was that it didn't
7 exist.
8 THE COURT: So it didn't exist. So your
9 understanding was it didn't exist?
10 THE WITNESS: Correct.
11 THE COURT: She said it didn't exist.
12 THE WITNESS: I believe she said it didn't
13 exist.
14 THE COURT: Which would comport with what she
15 told you just recently, is that you had helped her
16 to answer the question but you didn't know it was
17 false.
18 THE WITNESS: Correct.
19 THE COURT: And she didn't mean to imply to us
20 here that you had coached her to testify
21 untruthfully.
22 THE WITNESS: Correct.
23 THE COURT: So that all kind of fits, doesn't
24 it?
25 MR. DANDAR: That is it. That is it. All
75
1 right.
2 THE COURT: However, when you read this, "Prior
3 to my deposition, he," this being you "-- had
4 coached me regarding how to falsely answer questions
5 about the source of the LMT funds," that is not --
6 THE WITNESS: One doesn't get warm fuzzies on
7 reading it, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Well, you really cannot read that
9 the way that Ms. Brooks would like for you to
10 understand she meant it.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- I prefer to take
12 people at their best.
13 THE COURT: Well, let me ask you this. And if
14 you will just give me a yes or no, is this true or
15 false? "Prior to my deposition, he," this is you,
16 the first lines -- line "-- John Merrett represented
17 me at this deposition and knew I was testifying
18 falsely."
19 "Prior to my deposition --" this is the line.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
21 THE COURT: "-- he had coached me regarding how
22 to falsely answer questions about the source of LMT
23 funds."
24 Is that true, or false?
25 THE WITNESS: That is false as I understand the
76
1 rules of English grammar.
2 THE COURT: All right. Let's go to the next
3 line.
4 MR. DANDAR: Read the next one, please.
5 THE WITNESS: "Mr. Merrett had also advised me
6 to leave unedited video footage from the LMT in the
7 hallway and it would be taken care of."
8 I gave those instructions to Mark Bunker. I
9 don't know whether Ms. Brooks was present when I
10 gave those instructions, but they were not directed
11 to Ms. Brooks.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Why did you give those instructions to Mark
14 Bunker?
15 A Because Mark Bunker, who is another person I
16 represented at various times through this litigation --
17 MR. DANDAR: Can you turn the mike on? I'm
18 having a hard time. I don't know why.
19 A Mark Bunker, who is another person affiliated with
20 the LMT whom I have represented during the course of these
21 proceedings, is a videographer.
22 He had a substantial collection of videotapes,
23 some of which were at his house and some of which were
24 stored on the premises of the LMT. He was concerned that
25 there would be a bogus raid of some sort on his house and/or
77
1 the LMT premises.
2 Those tapes were represented to me, by both
3 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Bunker, to be Mr. Bunker's property. And
4 Mr. Bunker expressed to me concern, not only because they
5 were his property, but because he regarded them as being
6 covered, to one degree or another, by journalistic
7 privilege, that he did not want them falling into anybody
8 else's hands and being reviewed by anybody.
9 At that point they were not under any subpoena or
10 any kind of court order.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q So what you told Mr. Bunker to put out in the
13 hallway of the LMT was his property, not the property of the
14 LMT?
15 A That is correct.
16 THE COURT: Were you aware that some judge had
17 entered an order -- what -- where is this order in
18 question?
19 MR. MOXON: There are several orders, your
20 Honor. There is an order in September of 2001, one
21 in August of 2001.
22 THE COURT: There is a specific order, I don't
23 know, I don't know -- it probably --
24 MR. MOXON: September 5, 2001.
25 THE COURT: Well, let me see it. When did you
78
1 have this conversation with Mr. Bunker?
2 THE WITNESS: I don't know, Judge. It was
3 sometime -- I think it was before Judge Beach came
4 into the picture, I believe. I think it was
5 probably at the time -- you may have heard testimony
6 about the LMT staff receiving a letter from
7 Mr. Rosen, who represents Scientology, making
8 various threats about alleged copyright
9 infringement.
10 THE COURT: I haven't heard about Mr. Rosen's
11 letter about that yet.
12 THE WITNESS: Well --
13 MR. DANDAR: You did.
14 THE COURT: I did? I'm sorry, I don't
15 remember. I'm sorry.
16 THE WITNESS: There was a letter to that
17 effect. And the way it was explained to me in
18 response to that, the staff gathered up all copies,
19 except archival copies, of anything as to which
20 Scientology claimed a copyright and shredded them,
21 retaining archival copies. It would have been about
22 that time because I think that is what caused
23 Mr. Bunker to be concerned that he was not going to
24 have the opportunity to try to defend the property
25 through the court but, rather, it would somehow end
79
1 up, in the course of a raid of one sort or another,
2 in Scientology's hand, without his having an
3 opportunity to be heard on whose or what they were.
4 So I think that was the triggering event.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Just a second here.
6 Is the -- do you all have a copy of that back
7 there as I'm looking at it?
8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think so.
9 MR. MOXON: Excuse me?
10 THE COURT: Do you have a copy of it, or was
11 this your copy you handed to me?
12 MR. MOXON: Of what?
13 THE COURT: Of this (indicating).
14 MR. MOXON: Yes.
15 THE COURT: I want to be sure that -- is this
16 Paragraph 4 that: "The Lisa McPherson Trust shall
17 produce all videos in its possession or control of
18 witnesses in this case of September 7, 2001, whether
19 or not they are on the website, in computer or any
20 other form," is that the --
21 MR. DANDAR: That is the one order.
22 MR. MOXON: That is one order. There is a
23 later one on October 17 --
24 THE COURT: I don't know about all these
25 videos. Is this the one the judge signed which
80
1 would have produced these videos he's now talking
2 about?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
4 MR. MOXON: Well, there actually were five
5 different orders. I can walk through them all.
6 THE COURT: No, I just want to know, are we
7 talking about the same videos?
8 MR. MOXON: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: There is only one bunch of
10 videos.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Did you know that there was
12 an order in place at the time, whatever conversation
13 you had with Mr. Bunker, we'll get into what it was,
14 signed by the judge, that said: "The Lisa McPherson
15 Trust shall produce all videos in its possession or
16 control of witnesses in this case on any date,
17 whether they are on the website, in computers or in
18 any other form"?
19 When you gave this instruction to Mark Bunker,
20 were you aware that there was a court order stating
21 what I just read to you?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, there had been at
23 least one prior order for the LMT to produce tapes
24 in its custody or control.
25 THE COURT: And they had not and, therefore,
81
1 the Church went back to the Judge and said we still
2 don't have them, they got another one.
3 THE WITNESS: No, they actually had. What the
4 Church maintained through all this time, for some
5 reason, without subpoenaing Mr. Bunker, is that any
6 tapes that belonged to Mr. Bunker are in the custody
7 or possession or control of the LMT. And that is
8 the crux of the whole matter.
9 I don't know why they have not subpoenaed them
10 from him, since there has been at least one
11 affidavit that I drafted and filed on his behalf in
12 this case claiming ownership of the tapes and
13 explaining he used them not only to make films for
14 LMT but to make films unconnected with the LMT and
15 they were his personal property and his journalistic
16 stock in trade.
17 THE COURT: This sounds like lawyer talk,
18 Mr. Merrett. And I understand that and I understand
19 you are a lawyer. I just am trying to get the facts
20 here.
21 THE WITNESS: The fact is that the tapes in
22 question don't belong to the LMT and never did.
23 THE COURT: But when you knew an order was in
24 effect, an order, a court order, that said: "The
25 Lisa McPherson Trust shall produce all videos in its
82
1 possession or control," you told Mr. Bunker, who
2 apparently had some concern over these as to whether
3 he would ever get them back if they got into the
4 hands of the Church of Scientology, "Well, put them
5 out in the hallway and I'll take care of them"?
6 THE WITNESS: There was not a connection like
7 that, your Honor. It didn't follow on the heels of
8 an order.
9 THE COURT: Well, you knew there was an order?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, most assuredly.
11 THE COURT: Would it ever occur to you, rather
12 than tell somebody, "Well, put them out in the
13 hallway, I'll take care of them for you," to bring
14 them into court and let the Court resolve it?
15 THE WITNESS: It did, your Honor. The problem
16 is that they didn't -- the tapes were not the
17 property of any person who had been brought within
18 the jurisdiction of the Court. I mean, it's as if
19 they subpoenaed --
20 THE COURT: That sound like a shady practice to
21 you? Or did it feel perfectly comfortable to you?
22 THE WITNESS: Ma'am, if you'll recall, I told
23 you a moment ago I filed an affidavit saying who
24 owned the tapes. This was no secret. There was
25 nothing shady about it.
83
1 These were the property of a person who was a
2 stranger to the action and not within the
3 jurisdiction of the Court. Why Scientology chose to
4 take the approach of continuing to come in and
5 insist that what Ms. Brooks had testified to, that
6 the tapes were not his -- hers, they were Mark
7 Bunker's and they needed to get them from him, that
8 was testified to more than once in the presence of
9 Scientology lawyers. Why, in spite of that and in
10 spite of Mr. Bunker's affidavit, they continued to
11 come in and demand LMT produce things that didn't
12 belong to it, I don't know.
13 THE COURT: What was Mr. Bunker's concern?
14 There apparently were several orders. Was he
15 concerned about the order?
16 THE WITNESS: No. Mr. Bunker's concern is,
17 number one -- and I spoke to him actually today
18 again -- Mr. Bunker's concern is, number one, that
19 the tapes are -- they are his fodder for what he
20 does, for making videos. They are raw footage, they
21 are the equivalent of journalistic notes.
22 Number two, many of the videotapes are purely
23 personal videotapes, they are videotapes of his
24 family.
25 Number 3, none of them contain anything that
84
1 has anything to do with the substance of the case.
2 They are his private property. And he is no keener
3 than you or I would be about having his private
4 property pawed through in the absence of thinking it
5 has something to do with the case.
6 THE COURT: Obviously, Mr. Merrett, you and I
7 are not on the same wavelength here so I'm going to
8 try to get more on your wavelength.
9 Was one of Mr. Bunker's concerns that a Court
10 had entered an order that might cause him to lose
11 control of these videos?
12 THE WITNESS: No. His concern was that either
13 through this case or through some bogus copyright
14 claim, Scientology might do what it has done in the
15 past, and obtain a writ or warrant allowing it, in
16 the company of law enforcement officers, to storm an
17 opponent's premises and seize material, and that
18 they would storm his house and/or his office and
19 seize his tapes without his ever having had a chance
20 to defend his tapes or try to protect them.
21 THE COURT: So he had no concern -- nobody had
22 any concern over this court order because this court
23 order didn't even refer to those, they just -- they
24 were just -- didn't know what they were talking
25 about?
85
1 THE WITNESS: At many times during the course
2 of the litigation, the LMT had produced all of the
3 videotapes that were its -- that belonged to it.
4 But Scientology kept coming back and saying,
5 "We know there is others, we know there is this
6 library," and all of which was correct.
7 However, it was Mr. Bunker's. And there was
8 Ms. Brooks' testimony which they had, and
9 Mr. Bunker's affidavit to that effect.
10 Again, I have no idea why they didn't subpoena
11 Mr. Bunker. But Mr. Bunker's concern was that
12 Scientology would act unilaterally to seize his
13 tapes.
14 THE COURT: So knowing this court order was in
15 effect, despite the fact, in your mind, when it says
16 "The control of, under the custody or --" I'm sorry,
17 that "The Lisa McPherson Trust shall produce all
18 videos in its possession or control," gee, was
19 Mr. Bunker an employee there?
20 THE WITNESS: He was either an employee or a
21 contractor.
22 THE COURT: So -- so he had some videos on
23 their premises that he owned, is that what you are
24 saying?
25 THE WITNESS: Some were on the premises, yes,
86
1 ma'am.
2 THE COURT: So do you think that might be in
3 the possession of the Lisa McPherson Trust? Or the
4 control of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
5 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am.
6 THE COURT: This is your interpretation, right?
7 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am, it is what Mr. Bunker
8 explained to me, he was the only person who used
9 them, who edited them, who made them. They were --
10 remained exclusively in his custody and control.
11 THE COURT: How come you had to tell him to put
12 them in the hallway and you'd take care of them?
13 THE WITNESS: Because I was leaving that
14 afternoon. And I told him if he wanted them removed
15 I would take them as trust property, and "If you put
16 them in the hall, I would pick them up on my way
17 out."
18 THE COURT: I see.
19 THE WITNESS: So he boxed them up and put them
20 out in the hall.
21 THE COURT: So when Ms. Brooks here says you
22 advised her to leave this unedited video footage
23 from the LMT in the hallway, it would be taken care
24 of, then obviously that is false?
25 THE WITNESS: She is not the person to whom I
87
1 directed the comments. Whether or not she was
2 present at the time, I don't know, but --
3 THE COURT: Let me see if you can understand
4 English. "Mr. Merrett had also advised me," this is
5 the affiant, this is Stacy Brooks --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
7 THE COURT: "Mr. Merrett had also advised me to
8 leave unedited video footage from the LMT in the
9 hallway and it would be 'taken care of.'" Is that
10 true?
11 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am, not that I advised
12 her. Now, I may be able to save you time. As I
13 told you, I talked to Mr. Bunker today to --
14 THE COURT: Do you know, the truth of the
15 matter is I don't really care to hear from
16 Mr. Bunker.
17 I'm, quite frankly, flabbergasted. You know,
18 it is very clear to you and -- very clear to you
19 that the Court was -- knew exactly what it meant,
20 and that five times they were trying to get these --
21 these tapes, they knew what they were trying to get.
22 The judges knew what they were trying to get. The
23 judges were entering orders.
24 But somehow you, Mr. Merrett, had figured out
25 that this wasn't it and, oh, if Mr. Bunker would
88
1 just throw these things out in the hallway, you
2 would take care of it. That is what I find to be
3 amazing. So you don't need to save me time.
4 Move on, counselor.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Mr. Merrett --
7 THE WITNESS: Am I correct in assuming from
8 that, nobody wants the videotapes any more?
9 MR. WEINBERG: No. We want the videotapes.
10 MR. MOXON: We definitely want the videotapes.
11 THE COURT: I don't want the videotapes. I
12 assume if you have them or Mr. Bunker has them, they
13 should be turned over.
14 MR. DANDAR: To Mr. Keane, the master.
15 MR. MOXON: We definitely want the videotapes.
16 You saw the excerpt, your Honor, of the videotape of
17 Jesse Prince, as to the end of cycle --
18 THE COURT: That one where there were a whole
19 bunch of folks, Ms. Brooks and --
20 MR. MOXON: Yes, remember that -- they did
21 produce one video much earlier in the case. LMT
22 produced a little excerpt of Dell Liebreich a few
23 minutes long, excerpt of Gerry Armstrong, and this
24 little composite thing where they had taken out of
25 the original videos of Jesse Prince, so the Court
89
1 had ordered long ago, several -- several courts
2 ordered we get the unedited versions so we can see
3 what other statements these witnesses made.
4 THE COURT: Whatever videotapes Mr. Bunker has,
5 it would be great if he would turn them over to
6 Mr. Keane, who is the special master, and he can go
7 through them. I believe he has been appointed to do
8 that, has he?
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
10 MR. MOXON: Yes.
11 THE COURT: I didn't make this appointment,
12 somebody did, but somebody made an appointment for
13 him to go through them, see what is relevant and
14 turn them over.
15 MR. MOXON: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: That is the time I was trying to
17 save, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. I don't think you get
19 it, Mr. Merrett. I have been sitting here for days
20 and days and days, dealing with allegations made
21 about lawyers who lie, lawyers who commit perjury,
22 lawyers who suborn perjury, lawyers who cause others
23 to lie now because they are extorting, because they
24 are blackmailing. All this is lawyers, lawyers who
25 are either liars, who are extorters, who suborn
90
1 perjury.
2 And it is very frustrating to sit here day
3 after day and hear this stuff said about lawyers.
4 Now I have you coming in, and I know there are a
5 bunch of court orders here that I know what they
6 were trying to get, I know why they were trying to
7 get them, and it seems to me that I know what
8 Ms. Brooks said, and then you want to kind of
9 hem-haw around as to whether she's telling the truth
10 or isn't and suggest that it's a -- this is
11 perfectly all right.
12 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am, let me make it clear I
13 didn't hem-haw on that. I told you I didn't tell
14 her that; I told Mr. Bunker that.
15 Additionally, you will not find any order in
16 there directed to Mr. Bunker. My job is to
17 represent my clients. My client was not subpoenaed
18 or ordered to produce anything.
19 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I have a later order.
20 There is an order dated October 16.
21 THE COURT: You know, it is clear to me -- I
22 have got news for you, that isn't the way I would
23 have practiced law. What I would have done is I
24 would have said, let's -- "Let me have the things,
25 I'm going into court, Mr. Bunker, and I'm going to
91
1 say, 'Look, Judge, I think you got the wrong party
2 here, these don't belong to LMT.'" That is how I
3 would have done it. I wouldn't have taken them and
4 hauled them off somewhere. Mr. Merrett does it
5 differently.
6 What do you have there?
7 MR. MOXON: We have another hearing, that
8 emergency hearing, you may recall. Obviously, I was
9 going to question Mr. Merrett about this. But
10 during the emergency hearing when we saw that there
11 were a number of records that were being
12 surreptitiously removed from LMT out of the back
13 door --
14 THE COURT: If you can show that clip, maybe
15 that clip you have --
16 MR. MOXON: I'm going to show him the whole
17 thing, your Honor. I'll be happy to as soon as
18 Mr. Dandar sits down. I would like to clarify --
19 THE COURT: Well, I want Mr. Dandar to be able
20 to ask Mr. Merrett all of the questions he wants to.
21 MR. MOXON: But in response to what Mr. Merrett
22 just said, I argued extensively they couldn't hide
23 these tapes by claiming they were Mr. Bunker's
24 because Mr. Bunker was an employee of LMT all along.
25 THE COURT: That is what I would have said, you
92
1 know, custody -- possession or control, but an
2 employee, they have some control over something
3 their employee is making.
4 MR. MOXON: Exactly.
5 THE COURT: You made that argument? I didn't
6 hear it.
7 MR. MOXON: It wasn't in front of you. It was
8 in front of Judge Beach. But Judge Beach ordered,
9 yes, you can't get out of it that way, anyone that
10 is an employee or -- it includes that.
11 THE COURT: Here we go. Did you know about
12 this one, Mr. Merrett? In other words, Mr. Merrett,
13 I have been hearing about things about lawyers that
14 no judge would ever want to hear about lawyers. And
15 when you have been in here days and days, and what
16 you are going to have to try to do at the end of all
17 this is figure out whether lawyers are committing
18 perjury or lawyers are extorting witnesses, it is
19 not a happy day. So if I sound to you like I'm a
20 little annoyed, you can absolutely bet on it that I
21 am.
22 Now, here is another court order. The
23 evidence -- I better read it from the beginning so
24 we don't have any question about it.
25 THE WITNESS: What is the date of the order?
93
1 THE COURT: Okay, the date on this would be
2 October 16 of '01. And it even says CC to John
3 Merrett, counsel of record. So I'm going to assume
4 you got this, Mr. Merrett.
5 "This cause came on to be heard --" I'm sorry,
6 "This cause came on to be considered by the Court at
7 a hearing on September 28, 2001 pursuant to the
8 emergency motion of Church of Scientology Flag
9 Service Organization for appointment of special
10 master to examine LMT, Inc. records and for an order
11 preserving records."
12 Next paragraph. "Having heard argument of
13 counsel for the parties and being otherwise fully
14 advised on the premises, the Court orders that the
15 Church's motion is granted in accordance with the
16 oral ruling entered by the Court at the time of the
17 hearing. Herewith affirmed by this order, the Court
18 finds that the history of this case with respect to
19 the subpoenas directed to LMT, Inc. is that there
20 have been continuing orders entered for the
21 production of materials which have not been
22 produced. The Court finds that there is ample
23 evidence to demonstrate that there is a complete
24 reluctance by LMT, Inc. to follow the orders of the
25 Court." That is your client.
94
1 "The evidence warrants that the materials
2 potentially subject to the previously ordered
3 production be preserved until there can be an
4 inspection of records and information to locate
5 responsive records and information." Not your best
6 drafting there.
7 "LMT Inc. is accordingly ordered to preserve
8 and not dispose or send out of the jurisdiction any
9 records, tapes, electronically-stored information
10 and all other materials responsive or potentially
11 responsive to the Court's order -- orders --" listen
12 to this, "of May 15, 2000, July 19, 2000,
13 November 20, 2000, January 10, 2001 and September 5,
14 2001.
15 "This order pertains not only to the LMT, Inc.,
16 itself, but also to anybody employed by LMT or
17 acting on behalf -- its behalf that has possession
18 or control of any of this tangible evidence subject
19 to the current discovery orders or for which
20 responsiveness to the orders is disputed.
21 "The Court will appoint an independent person
22 to act as a special master or with other appropriate
23 authority to examine LMT, Inc.'s records, computers
24 and tapes to determine what, if any, material has
25 not been produced. Dated October 16, '01. CC:
95
1 Counsel: John Merrett."
2 Now, Mr. Merrett, was it after your receipt of
3 this order that this order of yours to Mr. Bunker
4 was given?
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 THE COURT: I would certainly hope not. What
7 did you do after you got this?
8 THE WITNESS: Actually, before I got that I
9 returned to the LMT and advised them that we were
10 under an oral pronouncement from the Court not to
11 remove or destroy or otherwise -- or have anything
12 to do with anything that was potentially responsive
13 to the prior discovery orders and subpoenas.
14 THE COURT: So you already had Mr. Bunker's
15 tapes?
16 THE WITNESS: Correct.
17 THE COURT: And you had them in hiding -- I'm
18 sorry, in trust?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. It is trust property, when
20 lawyers keep property that belongs to their clients.
21 THE COURT: I see. So you didn't think, did
22 you, that these tapes that you said, "Put them out
23 in the hallway and I'll take them," might get you in
24 trouble with either this Court or with the Bar?
25 THE WITNESS: Neither the tapes, nor the owner
96
1 of the tapes, were at any time subject to any
2 subpoena or order of the Court, nor were they within
3 the jurisdiction of the Court at any time. Identity
4 of their owner had been previously disclosed to
5 Scientology. Scientology elected to pursue a
6 particular course of litigation which was
7 extraordinarily foolhardy and time-consuming, but it
8 was somebody else's property.
9 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to tell you what,
10 sir, since this doesn't have a huge bearing on my
11 case, I'm going to let you make that argument to the
12 Bar, or I'm going to let you make that argument
13 to -- whose order is this? Judge Beach.
14 MR. MOXON: Judge Beach, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: So you can take that up --
16 THE WITNESS: I would ask that the Court, in
17 throwing around terms like that, pay a trifle bit of
18 attention to the order --
19 THE COURT: And I would suggest to you that I
20 don't want to hear any more from you. You know
21 what, we only need to hear from you about really
22 this one point and a few other points that people
23 think are relevant, and then you may be excused.
24 THE WITNESS: Judge Beach's order was entered
25 after the events you have been discussing.
97
1 THE COURT: You already said that, sir. And
2 I -- I guess we'll have to hear from Mr. -- well, I
3 don't. We'll let Judge Beach hear from this fellow,
4 Mr. Bunker, to see if one of his concerns might not
5 have been that these orders had something to do with
6 his blessed little tapes. And if he said they do,
7 oh, boy, you are in trouble.
8 Here. Take this matter before Judge Beach.
9 And if you don't send this matter to the Bar, I
10 will.
11 Continue. By the way, other matters that get
12 referred to the Bar -- I have been advised certain
13 matters have already been referred to the Bar, so I
14 am not going to the Bar. You lawyers have to figure
15 out some of this stuff. I can't figure it all out.
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Mr. Merrett --
19 A Yes?
20 Q -- what is the -- have we finished with Paragraph
21 27?
22 THE COURT: Matter of fact, I can't stand to
23 hear any more of this right now. We're going to
24 take a recess.
25 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 3:20 to
98
1 3:45 p.m.)
2 ______________________________________
3 THE COURT: All right, Counselor, you may
4 continue.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Now, Mr. Merrett, also the last sentence of
7 Paragraph 27 of Ms. Brooks' affidavit states: "I was also
8 aware that several hard drives were removed from computers
9 at LMT prior to the special master's inspection of the LMT."
10 Do you know anything about that?
11 A No, except that it was done. It was done prior to
12 the hearing on that order of Judge Beach's sometime a week
13 or two -- maybe within the week before that or maybe a week
14 before that.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay, I'm going to have this
16 marked as plaintiff's next exhibit, but it's
17 already -- it's already been marked by the defense.
18 This is Mr. Merrett's E-Mail.
19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, it's also -- I
20 indicated to Mr. Dandar, it is 49 of the memo of
21 fact and law, it's an exhibit there, it is going to
22 be --
23 THE COURT: Okay, but you are introducing it
24 now as a plaintiff's exhibit?
25 MR. DANDAR: 45.
99
1 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, is it 45? Or 48?
2 THE COURT: 45 is what is on mine. Madam
3 Clerk, is it 45?
4 THE CLERK: It is, Judge.
5 A It says, "Ken, the short version of what is going
6 on is this. The well is dry as far as money goes. Jesse is
7 going to withdraw as an expert witness. Bob feels that the
8 case is way out of control and is focused 100 percent on him
9 and specifically on trying to put him in jail. He wants
10 Dell to settle the case or otherwise make it go away. Bob
11 isn't coming into Florida any time soon. Can you meet with
12 me and Stacy this weekend to discuss this?"
13 Q What is the date of that E-Mail from you to me?
14 A According to the printout, the date is August 24,
15 2001.
16 Q And do you recall Stacy Brooks wanting to go to
17 Dallas, Texas and secretly meeting with Dell Liebreich,
18 without me knowing about it?
19 A I don't recall that it was a secret. I know she
20 wanted to communicate with Ms. Liebreich.
21 Q Do you know she kept that desire from me?
22 A I don't know one way or the other.
23 Q Do you know if Bob Minton supported that idea?
24 A The idea of meeting? Or the idea of dropping the
25 case?
100
1 Q The idea of Stacy Brooks going to meet Dell
2 Liebreich in Texas without me knowing about it?
3 A I'm not sure. But I assumed that he would.
4 Q Well, in his deposition in October 2001 do you
5 recall him answering Mr. Rosen's question about that and
6 Mr. Minton saying, in very colorful language, when he found
7 out she wanted to do that, he told her there was no F-ing
8 way she was going to do that?
9 A Not particularly.
10 Q Well, you sat in on the October 2001 deposition of
11 Mr. Minton. Do you recall ever advising him that he had
12 lied under oath or misstated the facts?
13 A No.
14 Q Now, Paragraph 28 of Ms. Brooks' April 2002
15 affidavit states: "Following this deposition," and she's
16 referring to a deposition of August 15, 2001 where Judge
17 Beach threatened to put her in jail, she says, "I decided I
18 was unwilling to continue to forward the agenda of the
19 wrongful death case by telling further lies and evading
20 discovery because I was concerned about exposing Mr. Minton,
21 myself and anyone else to any further risk."
22 Mr. Merrett, can you tell us what she's talking
23 about?
24 A Actually, I'm trying to read it here on the
25 transcript.
101
1 Q Here, let me -- it is much better if I hand it to
2 you. It's the beginning sentence of Paragraph 28.
3 A I'm not sure what you mean by your question.
4 Q Well, read the first sentence again to yourself
5 and tell me what is Ms. Brooks referring to about not
6 continuing to lie to the wrongful death case?
7 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. He's asking
8 Mr. Merrett what he thinks Ms. Brooks must have
9 meant.
10
11 THE COURT: Well, he was her lawyer. If he
12 knows.
13 A I don't know. And it's complicated by the fact
14 that the only information that I have about lies having been
15 told is post hoc.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q I don't understand that.
18 A It is after the fact.
19 Q Do you know --
20 A What she's obviously referring to, lies that she
21 believes that she told during the course of discovery in the
22 case.
23 Q Okay. Can you list for us all of the lies that
24 you know she told during the discovery of the wrongful death
25 case that had -- that were done for the wrongful death case?
102
1 THE COURT: I presume you're talking about that
2 he knew about.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q That you knew about, right.
5 A No, as I told you, there was one instance when I
6 believed that she'd testified falsely in front of Judge
7 Beach. And I spoke to her rather sternly about it. And I'm
8 not sure what she did about it.
9 Q When you spoke to her sternly about this one lie
10 in front of Judge Beach, was that during a break?
11 A I believe it was.
12 Q Did she go back in and correct her statement?
13 A I don't recall.
14 THE COURT: Well, let's just find it, because,
15 you know, this is kind of bizarre, isn't it? He
16 doesn't know when it was, he doesn't know what she
17 did about it. So let's see if we can help him out.
18 MR. DANDAR: I don't have her deposition,
19 Judge.
20 THE COURT: I don't, either.
21 MR. DANDAR: So I'm stuck.
22 THE COURT: I don't have it.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Well, the general question I have, and take some
25 time to reflect, please, do you recall anybody, including
103
1 Brooks, Minton, anybody, at the LMT lying for me in
2 representing the estate of Lisa McPherson in the wrongful
3 death case?
4 A No.
5 Q Okay. The other part of this first sentence says,
6 "Evading discovery because of the agenda of the wrongful
7 death case."
8 What discovery did Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton or the
9 LMT abuse or evade for the agenda of the wrongful death
10 case?
11 A The only thing that could be even inaccurately
12 characterized as evasion of discovery in connection with the
13 wrongful death case was the overt withholding of information
14 and documents based on claims of relevance, privacy and
15 privilege that, so far as I knew, originated with
16 Ms. Brooks, Mr. Minton and the LMT.
17 But those were concerns arising from the interests
18 of those three persons, not from anything else.
19 Q Did it have anything to do with this, quote,
20 agenda of the wrongful death case?
21 A If your question is whether I am aware of anyone
22 evading discovery in order to further the estate's agenda --
23 Q Yes.
24 A -- no, I am not.
25 Q Mr. Merrett, when you were representing the LMT,
104
1 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, whose interests -- silly question
2 but I have to ask it -- whose interests were you
3 representing?
4 A Those three persons.
5 Q Did you ever represent the interests, in any
6 stretch of the imagination, of the estate of Lisa McPherson?
7 A There were a couple of occasions when you and I
8 collaborated on specific motions or specific points of
9 research because the interests of the estate and the
10 interests of my client were conterminous on the point in
11 issue.
12 Q Give us an example.
13 A For example, we jointly filed at least one, maybe
14 two, petitions for a certiorari for review of discovery
15 orders.
16 I know that there were -- there was -- it seemed
17 like it was the same chunk of legal research that we had
18 collaborated on that we separately used in more than one
19 filing, like motions for protective order, where the issue
20 was whether or not a person X was legitimately a witness and
21 should be subjected to deposition or other discovery.
22 I know that there was a summary judgment motion
23 that you filed at one point which, had it been granted,
24 would have taken my clients beyond the reach of discovery
25 because it would have amounted to a determination of
105
1 irrelevance of any information they had. And I had done
2 some research on that point on my own, which I forwarded to
3 you when you told me you were working on the summary
4 judgment motion.
5 Q That is the summary judgment for the counterclaim
6 that's theory is it represents an abuse of process claim?
7 A Yes, I had done the research at an earlier point
8 dealing with -- with the -- the claim was that information
9 that my clients had was relevant to what was then cast as an
10 affirmative defense of abuse of process.
11 And there was extensive research about what
12 constitutes the tort for abuse of process I had done, which
13 I believe was later incorporated into your motion for
14 summary judgment.
15 Q Is that because Mr. Minton's name and the LMT are
16 mentioned more often than any other name in that
17 counterclaim?
18 A I don't know what is mentioned with what frequency
19 in the counterclaim.
20 Q All right. But Mr. Minton's name is mentioned in
21 the counterclaim?
22 A I believe it is.
23 Q So other than the instances that you just
24 described to eliminate the unnecessary discovery and to
25 respond to this counterclaim or affirmative defense of abuse
106
1 of process, was there anything that you did that had
2 anything to do with advancing or protecting the interests of
3 the estate of Lisa McPherson?
4 A No, other than communications as in this -- the
5 E-Mail, this Exhibit 45, at different times, if I recall
6 correctly, you had asked me to find out, you know, what was
7 going on, what the position was with respect to funding.
8 And at other times, Mr. Minton had asked me to
9 tell you to leave him alone, that there wasn't any more
10 money.
11 Q And that was in August of 2001?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you had to send me an E-Mail because
14 Mr. Minton wasn't even communicating with me at that point
15 in time, was he?
16 A I don't believe he was communicating with you
17 directly at that time.
18 Q Nor Ms. Brooks?
19 A That, I don't know.
20 Q Do you have any recollection whatsoever that I met
21 with Mr. Minton to prepare him for his -- either his
22 September or October 2001 deposition?
23 A Not that I have any knowledge of.
24 Q Mr. Merrett, you have been classified in testimony
25 either in this court or Judge Baird's court as an extension
107
1 of Ken Dandar. Is that true?
2 A True that I have been so classified in court?
3 Q No, have you ever been an extension of Ken Dandar
4 in the litigation involving the estate of Lisa McPherson and
5 the Church of Scientology?
6 A No.
7 Q Have you ever taken orders from me?
8 A No.
9 Q At the LMT, did you have an office -- eventually
10 have an office there?
11 A Not in a real formal sense. But, yes, I mean, I
12 had a room where all of my -- all of the legal materials
13 pertaining to the wrongful death case were stored. I
14 traveled with my own computer. But I sometimes used
15 Mr. Minton's office. I sometimes worked upstairs.
16 Q Did I have an office at the LMT?
17 A No.
18 Q When you say legal documents of the wrongful death
19 case, are you talking about the documents concerning the
20 Lisa McPherson Trust discovery requests from the Church of
21 Scientology?
22 A Well, everything that I had amassed in connection
23 with the litigation over discovery. I mean, it included
24 things like transcripts from various hearings and things
25 like that that didn't directly involve LMT or people
108
1 affiliated with it, but more on discovery issues that were
2 being litigated.
3 Q Now, toward -- let's just say after you sent that
4 E-Mail, let's use that as a point of reference, August of
5 2001. By that time, Dell Liebreich had resigned as a board
6 member of the Lisa McPherson Trust. Are you aware of that?
7 A I don't know.
8 Q Okay. After August of 2001 when you sent that
9 E-Mail representing Mr. Minton's termination of further
10 funding for the wrongful death case, was Mr. Minton or
11 Ms. Brooks -- did they continue to be concerned at all about
12 any discovery or harassment by the Church of Scientology?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Form, discovery
14 or -- one or the other, or --
15 THE COURT: I'm sorry, my mind was elsewhere.
16 What was the question again? Do it again.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q After August of 2001 -- I'll change it.
19 After August of 2001, was Mr. Minton concerned
20 about further discovery by the Church of Scientology?
21 A I don't know. You would have to look and see what
22 I filed after that point.
23 Q Okay. When you advised your client to plead the
24 Fifth Amendment to questions in the September and
25 October 2001 depositions, were those -- was that advice
109
1 given in good faith on the belief that there -- those
2 questions may pose an opening of the door to possible
3 criminal activity?
4 A Yes. The advice was -- of course, I don't know
5 anybody's business in minute detail. The advice was here is
6 what it means to incriminate yourself. If you believe that
7 a question may incriminate yourself, this is what you should
8 do -- or, rather, that the answer to a question may
9 incriminate you.
10 Q Do you recall Stacy Brooks or Bob Minton telling
11 you, in August of 2001, to do whatever you had to do to try
12 to get them out of being deposed and subjected to discovery
13 orders in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
14 A Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks repeatedly asked me to
15 get them out and keep them out of the discovery process in
16 the case, throughout the time I represented them.
17 Q Let's go back to when you first came to the Lisa
18 McPherson Trust in 2000. And, also, you were their attorney
19 for the entire year of 2001. Correct?
20 A I believe so.
21 Q Okay. Do you recall any instance where Mr. Minton
22 was telling me what to do in the wrongful death case?
23 A No. I recall instances when he expressed a desire
24 to do that.
25 Q When?
110
1 A At -- at various and numerous times over the
2 course of the litigation.
3 Q And do you recall instances where he accomplished
4 that?
5 A No. The instances were that Mr. Minton stated,
6 quite understandably, that he wanted the case dropped, that
7 he wanted you to drop the case, that he wanted you to make
8 the case go away.
9 On occasion, he asked me to go and explain the
10 situation to you and tell you that that was what needed to
11 happen.
12 Q And how did I respond to that?
13 A I never told you, except by way of relating a
14 historical fact, because as I explained to Mr. Minton at the
15 time, your client is the estate, and you would be ethically
16 foreclosed from even considering what Mr. Minton or
17 Ms. Brooks or I wanted, and that it would put you in a
18 dreadfully awkward personal spot for them or for me to be
19 pleading with you to do something that was ethically out of
20 bounds for you because of your obligation to your client.
21 Q So --
22 A I mean, I did tell them that if Dell Liebreich
23 told you to drop the case, that you could drop the case if
24 that is what you and Dell decided to do.
25 Q So because of that statement that you made, do you
111
1 believe that that gave Stacy Brooks the idea to fly to Texas
2 by herself, without telling me, to see Dell Liebreich to get
3 her to tell me to drop the case?
4 A I don't know whether it did or not. I would never
5 tell her to do that because Ms. Liebreich is represented by
6 counsel. But I don't know if that is what gave her the
7 idea. But I did explain that was the only person who could
8 make that decision.
9 Q During the almost two years that you represented
10 Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and the LMT, did you ever hear me
11 refer to Mr. Minton as Fred?
12 A As what?
13 Q Fred.
14 A Fred?
15 Q Fred. F-R-E-D.
16 A No.
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Merrett, I was
18 trying to make a note and I'm not sure I got it
19 right.
20 You indicated that Mr. Minton wanted the
21 case -- wanted you to go see Mr. Dandar to request
22 the case be dismissed?
23 THE WITNESS: Correct.
24 THE COURT: And did you actually -- I know what
25 you have indicated, that Ms. Liebreich was the only
112
1 one who could drop the case. But did you, as your
2 client requested, ask Mr. Dandar about that? Or you
3 did not do that?
4 THE WITNESS: I did not. I told Mr. Dandar at
5 some later point, as a matter of historical fact,
6 about that conversation, that Mr. Minton had wanted
7 me to come to him to get him to drop the case. But
8 I explained to him, it wasn't possible because it
9 was not possible for Mr. Dandar to respond to
10 Mr. Minton's request.
11 THE COURT: Okay. And what period of time was
12 this?
13 THE WITNESS: This was pretty much throughout
14 the time I was representing Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks
15 and the LMT. I'm sure the last time would have been
16 last year sometime. I say I'm sure, I think it
17 would have been.
18 THE COURT: And you may have already said this
19 but I'm not sure if I have it written down or not.
20 What was this period of time when you
21 represented either Ms. Brooks, Mr. Minton or LMT?
22 THE WITNESS: Roughly from, Mmm, April or May
23 of 2000, until -- I guess I don't think I actively
24 represented them in any way since January of this
25 year. I mean, I think -- I haven't done anything
113
1 for them since the end of 2001, I don't believe.
2 THE COURT: Okay. So -- so pretty much
3 throughout this entire period of time, Mr. Minton
4 and Ms. Brooks indicated that they wanted the case
5 dropped.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, more so as they began
7 to feel themselves more burdened by the discovery
8 demands and the number of hours of deposition and
9 those things.
10 THE COURT: And was that -- in other words, is
11 that why they wanted the case dropped? The
12 discovery demands? Or were there other reasons?
13 THE WITNESS: So far as I knew, that was the
14 reason. It was taking a terrible toll on them. It
15 was getting into their business. It was exposing
16 their private business. They feared nefarious use
17 would be made of things recovered. And they wanted
18 out of it, and saw no way out of it so long as the
19 case was alive.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Did Ms. Brooks express to you that she gave me
23 orders on how to handle the Lisa McPherson case?
24 A No. She did express that you were, to a degree,
25 dependent on her expertise about the workings of Scientology
114
1 and making tactical decisions early in the case.
2 Q Did she express to you that she was going to be a
3 testifying expert witness in the wrongful death case?
4 A No.
5 Q Did she ever tell you that she was frustrated, to
6 put it mildly, frustrated with me on the fact that I wasn't
7 handling it like a Scientology case?
8 A She -- she expressed a firm opinion about the fact
9 that the case either was or was not being handled as a
10 Scientology case. But I don't remember who wanted it
11 handled as a case about Scientology and who wanted it
12 handled as a case about a dead woman.
13 Q And what was your understanding of how I was
14 handling the case? Like a Scientology case? Or a case
15 about a dead woman?
16 THE COURT: I think he said he wasn't sure.
17 I'm sorry, go ahead and answer.
18 A No, your Honor understood correctly. I'm not sure
19 if she was saying about a Scientology case or a dead woman.
20 But, however, you weren't doing it the way she wished it was
21 being done.
22 THE COURT: So if she wanted it handled like a
23 Scientology case, then he was handling it like the
24 death of Lisa McPherson, like the death of, as you
25 said, the death of a dead woman?
115
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, or vice versa.
2 THE COURT: Vice versa, if he was handling it
3 like the death of a dead -- dead woman, then she
4 wanted it --
5 THE WITNESS: -- handled like Scientology.
6 THE COURT: Then he was handling it like a
7 Scientology --
8 THE WITNESS: Correct.
9 THE COURT: All right. Wait a minute, I think
10 that is -- if she wanted it handled like a wrongful
11 death case, then he was handling it like a
12 Scientology case?
13 THE WITNESS: Correct.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Did you ever participate in any of the pickets?
16 A Mmm, yes. I believe I did.
17 Q Did you carry a sign?
18 A I -- I think so.
19 Q Did I ever do that?
20 A Not that I know of.
21 Q Did you ever come to the vigils once a year?
22 A I have been to, I want to say, at least two, maybe
23 three of them.
24 Q Was I at those vigils that you saw, that you
25 participated in?
116
1 A I believe you were.
2 Q Was that picketing, or something else?
3 A No, something else. It was a rather solemn deal.
4 Q Now, were you Mr. Minton's attorney when he
5 decided to invest in a production for a movie in February of
6 2000 called The Profit?
7 A I don't know that he made the decision at that
8 point. I don't know whether I was actively representing him
9 at that point. And I know that I didn't represent him with
10 respect to a decision involving the production of a movie.
11 Q Do you recall the production of the movie didn't
12 start until August of 2000?
13 A I know that the -- that the times that I was -- or
14 the one time that I was at an outdoor set it was blistering
15 hot, so that sounds approximately right.
16 Q Okay. And what was the purpose of making this
17 movie?
18 A My understanding was that the purpose of the movie
19 was to try to make some money.
20 Q Did the making of this movie -- well, let me put
21 it this way. Did I have any input in anybody making this
22 movie?
23 A Not that I know of.
24 Q Was this movie made to try to help the wrongful
25 death case of Lisa McPherson?
117
1 A Not that I know of. And I have seen it and I
2 don't see how it could.
3 Q Is there anything in this movie that has anything
4 to do with the Lisa McPherson case?
5 A No, other than the fact that it can readily be
6 read as ridiculing Scientology.
7 Q But does it have anything to do with a woman who
8 dies inside a hotel?
9 A No.
10 Q Does it have anything to do with a woman who dies?
11 A There is one woman who, after close association
12 with the main character, commits suicide by jumping off a
13 building. But it is set historically sometime back in the
14 1950s.
15 Q Is there any mention of the word "Scientology" in
16 this movie?
17 A No.
18 MR. DANDAR: Let's see. I think I'm -- give me
19 a moment, Judge. I think --
20 THE COURT: This movie I'm going to get the
21 pleasure of watching this weekend. So let me just
22 ask you, if I might. You seem to imply that it is
23 fairly evident that it's -- would you say again
24 about what --
25 THE WITNESS: It could readily be read to refer
118
1 to Scientology or parody Scientology. It has a
2 megamaniacal message; it has a riveting drone-like
3 adherence. It has a mechanical device that is
4 supposed to give spiritual readings. It has a lot
5 of things in common with Scientology as Scientology
6 is viewed by many people.
7 THE COURT: Okay. If I didn't -- if I didn't
8 know anything about the case, if I was just a person
9 on the street, would I know that, necessarily?
10 THE WITNESS: You certainly wouldn't make any
11 connection between that and the case unless you
12 said, "Hey, wait a minute, doesn't Scientology have
13 some kind of a machine?"
14 THE COURT: Is this like the E-meter?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, it is similar in
16 function to the E-meter.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 THE WITNESS: But it's not -- there is no --
19 there is no reference in it, that I recall, to any
20 kind of scenario that matches up with anything in
21 this case.
22 THE COURT: Okay. When you observed it, was
23 it -- was it irreverent toward Scientology? I mean,
24 I don't know --
25 THE WITNESS: It's not --
119
1 THE COURT: Was it making fun of these things?
2 Or is it --
3 THE WITNESS: It's essentially just telling a
4 story. I mean, you would -- I think one reason it's
5 not in movie theaters is a lot of it is not so much
6 an inside joke but it's an inside story. It would
7 be kind of hard to follow some parts of the story
8 line unless you knew about L. Ron Hubbard's history
9 and some of the things that he was involved in.
10 THE COURT: A typical juror off the street that
11 didn't know anything about the Church of
12 Scientology, would they necessarily make a
13 connection?
14 THE WITNESS: Not unless they were particularly
15 focused on Scientology.
16 Well, I'm sorry, like you said, if they didn't
17 know anything about it, no, ma'am. I think if you
18 were familiar -- if you were particularly familiar
19 with Scientology, you would say, "Wait a minute,
20 that's got to be Scientology. Look at that guy with
21 the red hair like L. Ron Hubbard."
22 THE COURT: See, I didn't even know L. Ron
23 Hubbard had red hair, and I know more than most.
24 THE WITNESS: I think anybody would just look
25 at it and say the movie is about a whacky cult. I
120
1 mean, you would have to know it about Scientology
2 for the movie to click with Scientology in your
3 mind, I think.
4 THE COURT: If you were a member of the Church
5 of Scientology, would you be offended at the movie?
6 THE WITNESS: I think I would if I made the
7 connection. Although, you know, it's -- Mmm, you
8 know, you never -- they say that people who are
9 parodies in newspapers or plays or things like that
10 never recognize themselves. Or you are sitting in a
11 church or synagogue, you hear the sermon and you
12 say, "Yes, you tell them." You don't know they are
13 talking about you.
14 But I think there is a significant chance some
15 people wouldn't recognize it, but I think if you did
16 recognize it, if you took it to be a film about
17 Scientology and you were a Scientologist, you would
18 find it offensive.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q The removal of videotapes, you said are
22 Mr. Bunker's --
23 A Yes?
24 Q -- did I have any part in that decision-making
25 process?
121
1 A None.
2 Q Are you aware that there were documents shredded
3 at the LMT?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. Why was that done?
6 A Well, there were documents shredded routinely just
7 on an ongoing basis. There were documents shredded which I
8 was informed were shredded because the staff at the LMT had
9 received some sort of threatening letter from Mr. Rosen and
10 was attempting to shred extraneous material as to which
11 Scientology claimed copyrights.
12 Q Are you aware of Mr. Minton providing money to me
13 in the wrongful death case because I accomplished something
14 in the wrongful death case?
15 A You mean as a reward for specific behavior?
16 Q Yes.
17 A No.
18 Q For instance, are you aware of Mr. Minton handing
19 me a check for whatever amount because I obtained a court
20 order to receive a copy of Lisa McPherson's PC folders?
21 A No. But everything related to the PC folders took
22 place before I became involved with Mr. Minton and the LMT.
23 Q Did you hear anyone say that --
24 A No.
25 Q -- of your almost two years at the LMT?
122
1 A No.
2 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks or
3 anybody at the LMT say that the LMT was formed to cause
4 publicity for the wrongful death case?
5 A What was the first part of your question? Nobody
6 affiliated with the LMT never said that, that I know of.
7 Q Did you ever hear anyone affiliated with the LMT
8 say, "Let's go down and picket because it will get great
9 publicity for the wrongful death case"?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you ever hear anybody at any time ever say
12 anything that they were going to do that would benefit the
13 wrongful death case at the LMT?
14 A No.
15 Q Were you the attorney of Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks
16 when they went to the home of Bennetta Slaughter, I think it
17 was on Halloween night, and shot a video outside of her --
18 her gated, walled-in compound?
19 A I don't know. But I -- if I was, I didn't know
20 they were doing it.
21 Q Did you see the video?
22 A I don't think I ever have.
23 Q All right. Are you aware of Mr. Minton sending
24 people who were on the plaintiff's witness list to a
25 psychological counseling center known as Well Spring in Ohio
123
1 so that they could be counseled and become a better witness
2 for the Estate of Lisa McPherson?
3 A No.
4 Q Are you aware of any action taken by anyone at the
5 LMT to intimidate witnesses on the defendant's witness list?
6 A No.
7 Q Teresa Summers, did she work at the LMT?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Was she doing work there, or just sitting around
10 waiting for the Lisa McPherson trial to start?
11 A No. She actually worked.
12 Q Did you ever meet Karsten Lorensen?
13 A I don't believe so.
14 Q From Denmark or some -- well, okay.
15 A If I did, I don't recall.
16 Q Did you have any conversations -- well, Jesse
17 Prince, he worked at LMT, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did he actually do work at LMT? Or just sit
20 around waiting for the trial to start?
21 A He worked.
22 Q Did you ever hear me say I want to destroy
23 Scientology?
24 A No.
25 Q What was the purpose of the LMT while you were its
124
1 counsel for almost two years?
2 A What was the purpose of the LMT?
3 Q Right.
4 A It was essentially to offer assistance to people
5 who had been injured by Scientology, and to make information
6 available to the public about Scientology in order to, I
7 guess, inoculate others. I mean, it's put much more
8 artfully in the statement of purpose. But that is what they
9 did.
10 Q How often did I come over, as far as you know, to
11 the offices of the LMT?
12 A Not with any regularity.
13 Q When I came over to the offices of the LMT, did I
14 engage in any type of business practice there as a lawyer or
15 consultant or anything like that?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you ever hear anyone at the LMT talk about me
18 always begging Mr. Minton for money?
19 A I know that Mr. Minton, on more than one occasion,
20 expressed the feeling that he was being unfairly importuned
21 by you for funds.
22 Q He thought the case was costing more than he
23 bargained for?
24 A Yes. And, you know, I can tell you, as the head
25 of a fairly large family, it's annoying to be asked for
125
1 money, even when you have it. I mean, that was basically
2 it, was annoyance.
3 Q Okay. Do you recall times when I came over to the
4 LMT and Mr. Minton was there and I didn't ask for money?
5 A I do not recall a time when you came and asked for
6 money that I know of.
7 Q Oh, okay. Did you ever hear Stacy Brooks, around
8 the offices of the LMT, talk about her gecko theory?
9 A No.
10 THE COURT: Her what?
11 MR. DANDAR: Gecko.
12 THE COURT: Gecko? Or get-go?
13 MR. DANDAR: No, gecko, like the little lizard.
14 A Oh, wait. I think I did.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q What do you recall?
17 THE COURT: Spell that for my court reporter.
18 MR. DANDAR: G-E-C-K-O, I think.
19 A I really don't recall any details about it. It
20 was a metaphor whose merit escapes me.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Do you recall her saying that the LMT was like the
23 body of the gecko and the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case
24 was the tail that could be cut off, and the gecko could
25 presumably grow a new tail?
126
1 A Yes, that she would rather have the LMT survive,
2 that the -- as far as she was concerned, the existence of
3 the case was of decidedly secondary importance.
4 Q Did you ever become aware of checks coming to the
5 LMT or to me or anyone, Courage Productions, whatever, that
6 came from a UBS bank check?
7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was your question
8 again? I was trying to write down about the gecko.
9 I wanted to be sure I had it just right.
10 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead, write it down.
11 THE COURT: Let me write this down. The case
12 was the tail of the gecko?
13 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 MR. WEINBERG: We didn't have that expression.
16 We had the June bug one, but not this one.
17 THE COURT: I don't know what a gecko is.
18 THE WITNESS: It's a lizard --
19 THE BAILIFF: It's on a commercial.
20 THE WITNESS: -- around the house that changes
21 color. If you grab the tail, it breaks off. Some
22 people --
23 MR. DANDAR: Harmless little creatures. I see
24 kids hang the gecko by their earlobes, they bite
25 their earlobe, and they would walk around with the
127
1 gecko hanging onto their earlobe.
2 I stopped my daughter from doing that a long
3 time ago.
4 MR. LIROT: Where have you been hanging out?
5 MR. DANDAR: Anyway, I forgot what my question
6 was going to be.
7 THE COURT: I learned two things today. I
8 learned about the June bug, and I learned about the
9 Gecko.
10 THE REPORTER: "Question: Did you ever become
11 aware of checks coming to the LMT or to me or
12 anyone, Courage Productions, whatever, that came
13 from a UBS bank check?"
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q I just want to clarify something. As you sit here
16 today, is today the first time you learned that the Clambake
17 Operation money was actually Mr. Minton's?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And as you sit here today, the anonymous $500,000
20 that came to the LMT was Mr. Minton's money, is that the
21 first time you learned that, today?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you never heard about Mr. Minton giving me a
24 check that was made out on -- a UBS bank check?
25 A No.
128
1 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks say,
2 "Dandar wants a check and he doesn't want it traceable, so
3 we have to do it a different way"?
4 A No.
5 Q And without a doubt, May of 2000, you were
6 Mr. Minton's counsel, correct?
7 A By the time of his deposition, I was.
8 Q Okay. All right. Shredding of documents at the
9 LMT you said was on a routine basis. Was there -- at one
10 point in time where there was massive shredding, that was
11 because of Mr. Rosen's threatening letter?
12 A That is how it was explained to me.
13 Q Did I have anything to do with that?
14 A Not that I know of.
15 THE COURT: This letter of Mr. Rosen's,
16 somebody said I got it. Do I have it?
17 MR. FUGATE: I don't know, your Honor.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know what it is.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. DANDAR: I think that is it. Thank you.
21 THE COURT: I just have one last question.
22 Up until today, as far as you were concerned,
23 the $500,000 check that went to LMT came from
24 anonymous donors from Europe?
25 THE WITNESS: To the extent I knew or thought
129
1 anything about it. I didn't do their books or their
2 finances or raise money for them.
3 THE COURT: That is what you were told?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, as far as I knew.
5 THE COURT: Right. Okay. That is all.
6 You may inquire.
7 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, it is 4:30.
8 THE COURT: How long are you going to be?
9 MR. MOXON: Well, Mr. Dandar has gotten into
10 quite a few areas. It would be -- I don't think
11 I'll finish today.
12 THE COURT: Well, maybe you will, maybe you
13 won't. If you give me some idea, I can work late.
14 MR. MOXON: I would say probably three hours.
15 THE COURT: Oh, brother.
16 THE WITNESS: That is fine with me, your Honor.
17 I made no plans to stay down here.
18 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you made what?
19 THE WITNESS: Made no plans to stay down here.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Go.
21 MR. DANDAR: May I approach the witness and
22 retrieve this affidavit that I don't think I
23 completed?
24 THE COURT: You may.
25 Mr. Howie, have you had a chance to meet with
130
1 your client to find the documents he was referring
2 to before lunch?
3 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. And we have --
4 THE COURT: Do you have them?
5 MR. HOWIE: We have located the places in the
6 deposition, specifically the deposition of
7 October 11, 2001, and we have located the page and
8 line number and so forth.
9 THE COURT: Obviously if Mr. Moxon is going to
10 be three hours, I don't know if he will or not, we
11 are not going to go into areas we don't need to go
12 into; but if it takes three hours, I'll not get back
13 to your client today. So as far as I'm concerned,
14 he may be excused. But I want whatever it is that
15 he was referring to left with me before he leaves.
16 MR. HOWIE: I can provide the citation right
17 now and --
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. HOWIE: I don't believe I have extra
20 copies.
21 THE COURT: I want to see it. I want to see
22 what he had, he looked at. Let me see it.
23 MR. HOWIE: I need to talk to my client.
24 THE COURT: Give me just a minute. If I can
25 get that done, I might be able to let Mr. --
131
1 Mr. Minton can leave if he wants to. I don't know
2 that he would want to, but.
3 MR. MOXON: Sure.
4 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, if I may approach?
5 THE COURT: You may.
6 MR. HOWIE: For the record -- for the record,
7 I'm showing the Court page -- it is actually four
8 pages, Page 313 of the --
9 THE COURT: Wait a minute, let me get back here
10 to Mr. Minton's testimony. Oh, okay. Okay.
11 MR. HOWIE: I'm providing the Court with Pages
12 313 and 315 of the deposition of Robert Minton on
13 October 11, 2001.
14 I direct the Court's attention to lines 21
15 through 25 on 313, and lines 13 through 16 on Page
16 315.
17 THE COURT: Tell me again on 315?
18 MR. HOWIE: Lines 13 through 16 on Page 315.
19 And those have been marked on Mr. Minton's copy --
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. HOWIE: -- which I'm presenting to the
22 Court.
23 Also, Page 376 of the same deposition, I'm
24 directing the Court's attention to lines 20 through
25 25 on Page 376 and continuing to line 1 on Page 377.
132
1 THE COURT: I'm sorry? Continuing through line
2 1?
3 MR. HOWIE: Line 1 of Page 377.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. HOWIE: And it is marked on the copy
6 provided by Mr. Minton.
7 I advise the Court that those are Mr. Minton's
8 copies that --
9 THE COURT: This is -- I'm happy to give him
10 back his copies just as soon as I see it and look at
11 it, and if it looks like it's the same as my copy,
12 why, I'll mark it in my copy and he can have his
13 copy back in about five minutes. If there is any
14 difference, then I'll keep it for quite some time.
15 But I'll be happy to make him another copy, however.
16 All right, this is all from the October
17 deposition?
18 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, October 11.
19 Perhaps October 12th. But --
20 MR. WEINBERG: That is the one in the breach
21 case.
22 THE COURT: Oh, okay. You go on ahead,
23 Mr. Moxon. And if I -- if I look like I'm doing
24 something else, I'm listening, and I'll try to
25 listen and do something at the same time. Okay?
133
1 MR. MOXON: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Go ahead.
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. MOXON:
5 Q Mr. Merrett, you had no conversations with
6 Mr. Dandar whatsoever about this hearing prior to your
7 testimony today?
8 A That is not correct.
9 Q Tell me about the conversations you had with
10 Mr. Dandar concerning this hearing.
11 A Mr. Dandar called me and said that my name had
12 been mentioned in the hearing, that the Judge wanted to hear
13 from me and would like me to come down, he wanted to know
14 when would it be possible. I had originally said Wednesday.
15 I asked him what was going on.
16 He told me that Scientology was attempting to have
17 him removed from the case and/or have the case dismissed.
18 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you he was going to ask you
19 questions about videos?
20 A No.
21 Q Did he tell you the videos were at issue?
22 A I -- he did say -- he told me what Ms. Brooks had
23 said in her affidavit about videos.
24 Q Okay. So he didn't tell you to bring the videos
25 here, did he?
134
1 A Pardon me?
2 Q He didn't tell you to bring the videos to the
3 hearing today, did he?
4 A He said they were wanted, that Ms. Brooks -- I
5 believe he said Ms. Brooks wanted me to give them to
6 Mr. McGraw -- or Mr. McGowan, I apologize. He didn't
7 instruct me to bring them.
8 Q Did he tell you anything else in the conversation
9 you have remembered now besides the videos?
10 A Not that I recall. And please correct yourself.
11 I did not recall -- I did not testify that I had failed to
12 recall a conversation with Mr. Dandar regarding this
13 hearing.
14 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you there would be discussions
15 concerning control of the case?
16 A He said that the basis for the motion was an
17 allegation that the case was controlled by Mr. Minton,
18 rather than by Mr. Dandar or Ms. Liebreich.
19 Q Did he tell you he was going to ask you questions
20 about that?
21 A No. He asked me a couple of questions during the
22 conversation.
23 Q What did he ask you?
24 A He asked me if -- Mmm, if I knew of him ever
25 taking instructions from Mr. Minton about specific actions
135
1 to be taken in the case. And I think that is it.
2 Q Did he ask you what Mr. Minton had told you
3 concerning his control of the case?
4 A No.
5 Q Did he ask you about how much money Mr. -- if you
6 had information about how much money Mr. Minton had given
7 him?
8 A No.
9 Q Did he tell you there was going to be an issue
10 concerning destruction of hard drives, loss of hard drives?
11 A I believe that he said that she -- she being
12 Ms. Brooks -- had said something about removal of hard
13 drives in her affidavit, but that she had said that that was
14 not a matter that involved me.
15 Q Okay, anything else you remember about this
16 conversation now?
17 A No.
18 Q Did he tell you there was going to be some
19 discussion about Heldal-Lund or Operation Clambake?
20 A Not that I recall.
21 Q So you had no conversation with Mr. Dandar
22 whatsoever about Operation Clambake or money coming from
23 Europe?
24 A Not that I recall.
25 Q When was this conversation?
136
1 A Maybe Friday or Saturday of last week. I'm not
2 sure. But -- I think it probably was Friday afternoon or
3 Friday night.
4 Q You don't remember whether or not there was any
5 discussion whatsoever about money coming from Europe, or
6 Operation Clambake?
7 A Would you like my answer read back?
8 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Asked and answered.
9 Objection. Asked and answered.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 BY MR. MOXON:
12 Q How many times have you met with Mr. Dandar at
13 LMT? How many times have you seen him at LMT?
14 A Probably three or four.
15 Q Three or four during two years? That is all?
16 A Yes.
17 Q How many times have you been to his office in the
18 past two years?
19 A Maybe ten or twelve. It's much closer than the
20 LMT is to the courthouse.
21 Q How many times have you called Mr. Dandar from the
22 LMT office in two years, during that two-year period?
23 A I don't know. But not many.
24 Q About how many? Give me an estimate.
25 A I don't know.
137
1 Q Five? Ten? Twenty? Thirty?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q Give me your best estimate.
4 A I don't know.
5 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Asked and answered.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 BY MR. MOXON:
8 Q Not a great number, though?
9 THE COURT: Sustained, Counselor. Move on.
10 BY MR. MOXON:
11 Q Have you ever called him on the Nextel phones from
12 LMT?
13 A I would assume so. I don't know.
14 Q Did you have a Nextel phone at LMT?
15 A Yes.
16 Q How many times did you call him with a Nextel
17 phone?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q Give me your best estimate.
20 A I don't know.
21 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Asked and answered.
22 THE COURT: I think if he said he doesn't know,
23 he can ask him to give him his best estimate, and if
24 he doesn't know again, that is your last question.
25
138
1 BY MR. MOXON:
2 Q Now, during the deposition of --
3 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second.
4 Mr. Howie, those references that Mr. Minton
5 had, they are the same in my book, so he can have
6 his back and I can look at my own book then.
7 Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Minton, for bringing
8 those in.
9 BY MR. MOXON:
10 Q You worked on papers in Mr. Dandar's office, for
11 papers to be filed in this case, isn't that correct?
12 A Repeat the question.
13 Q You worked on papers that were filed in this case
14 for Mr. Dandar, isn't that correct?
15 A Yes, I collaborated with Mr. Dandar on papers
16 filed in this case.
17 Q And that included a motion to dismiss the
18 counterclaim, correct?
19 A I believe that some of my research ended up in
20 that document.
21 Q In fact, you drafted part of a motion to dismiss
22 the counterclaim, didn't you?
23 A I don't recall. I would have to see it.
24 Q So you did research for Mr. Dandar and gave it to
25 him and he filed a motion to dismiss?
139
1 A No.
2 Q What did you do?
3 A I did research on behalf of my own clients which I
4 subsequently determined would be of assistance to Mr. Dandar
5 and to prevent him from having to replow the same ground and
6 gave the research to him.
7 Q Okay. Did you discuss what arguments with
8 Mr. Dandar would be effective for him in this case?
9 A I'm sure we did.
10 Q Did Mr. Dandar suggest to you ways to prevent
11 further discovery?
12 A No.
13 Q You worked jointly in handling discovery matters,
14 didn't you?
15 A Say that again?
16 Q You worked jointly in handling discovery problems,
17 didn't you?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you forward to Mr. Dandar any of the drafts of
20 papers that you filed in this case?
21 A I don't believe I did, other than copies that he
22 received as required under the rules.
23 Q Drafts, I'm talking about.
24 A No. Not that I know of.
25 Q Did he give you any drafts?
140
1 A He probably did -- well, I'm sure on the cert
2 petitions we exchanged drafts, and probably on the motion to
3 dismiss we both saw the draft.
4 Q So he sent you the draft of the motion to dismiss
5 before it was filed?
6 A I believe he did.
7 Q All right. Now, in the deposition that you
8 attended in September, September 18 and 19 of 2001 of
9 Mr. Minton -- do you remember that?
10 A I -- I have attended many depositions with
11 Mr. Minton.
12 Q Okay. So you remember the one on September 18
13 and --
14 A I have no specific recollection, no.
15 Q This is the one where he asserted the Fifth
16 Amendment over a hundred times.
17 THE COURT: Actually, he asserted the Fifth
18 Amendment over a hundred times on one in September
19 and one in October.
20 MR. MOXON: October was a different case.
21 THE COURT: I know, but this man was there,
22 too, "Counsel for witness, Mr. John Merrett." So
23 you can't talk about one without the -- in other
24 words, he may -- those were two very long
25 depositions. One of them -- the one on 9/18 you
141
1 indicated, Counsel, I believe it had gone on two
2 days.
3 BY MR. MOXON:
4 Q Okay, so I would --
5 THE COURT: Wait a second, I'm not done. That
6 one was 306 pages.
7 The one October 15 and 16 went on over two days
8 and that one was 648 pages.
9 So you can understand why this man sitting
10 there through however long that would have taken --
11 it takes me a minute a page to read it, so I can
12 only imagine how long it may have taken to done
13 it -- he may not remember. In other words, he may
14 not remember the date. So you might have to help
15 him out.
16 MR. MOXON: Okay, I can give him a copy of the
17 transcript, if that will help.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. MOXON: I'm handing the witness a copy of
20 the transcript of September 18 and 19, 2001.
21 BY MR. MOXON:
22 Q Now, you testified a moment ago that you
23 instructed Mr. Minton to assert the Fifth Amendment to a
24 number of questions. Correct?
25 A What I -- you don't need to nod your head, if you
142
1 would just await the answer, I'll come up with it by myself.
2 What I --
3 THE COURT: Well, you know, if the truth be
4 known, you don't really need to be giving direction
5 to anyone in my court. That is reserved for me.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. Would you ask
7 counsel to stop attempting to give answers --
8 THE COURT: I can just tell you are quite
9 capable of handing yourself. If he bothers you and
10 really is influencing you, let me know and I'll tell
11 him to stop.
12 Apparently, you are bothering this witness and
13 influencing him unduly. So if you would be good
14 enough to stop.
15 A What I testified was that I explained to
16 Mr. Minton what the Fifth Amendment was, what
17 self-incrimination was, and explained that when questions
18 came along that he expected might incriminate him, he should
19 assert the Fifth Amendment. At various times I raised it on
20 his behalf.
21 BY MR. MOXON:
22 Q And you testified, did you not, that every one of
23 the assertions of the Fifth Amendment you believed was
24 appropriate?
25 A I believe they were all done in good faith, yes.
143
1 Q One of the questions for which the Fifth Amendment
2 was asserted was the following --
3 THE COURT: If you could give us the page and
4 line so I could see it.
5 MR. MOXON: Page 306 of the deposition. I
6 don't have the line, your Honor. He has the only
7 copy of the transcript.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 BY MR. MOXON:
10 Q But the question was: "That was a loan, the
11 $1,050,000 was a loan to Mr. Dandar?"
12 You pled the Fifth to that, correct?
13 THE COURT: I don't see that, Counselor, I'm
14 looking -- oh, I see it, I see it.
15 A The deposition indicates that he did.
16 BY MR. MOXON:
17 Q What was the basis for pleading the Fifth to that
18 question?
19 THE COURT: Well, I don't believe you can ask
20 him, any more than you could ask the witness the
21 basis for pleading the Fifth.
22 MR. MOXON: Well, there was a waiver found as
23 to this, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
25 MR. MOXON: Each of these questions I'm
144
1 reading, there was a waiver.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 A I don't know.
4 BY MR. MOXON:
5 Q No idea?
6 A I do not know.
7 Q Well, why did you have him assert the Fifth?
8 A Mr. Moxon, would you read that again, please?
9 Q Why did you have him assert the Fifth?
10 A No, would you read that again, please, the portion
11 you read, and indicate where it indicates that I --
12 THE COURT: I think I can find it for you,
13 Counselor. It looks like it is on line 22 on Page
14 306, beginning with line 22.
15 "Question: Okay, that was a loan -- $1,050,000
16 was a loan to Mr. Dandar."
17 24. "I'm asserting my Fifth Amendment
18 privilege."
19 Then Mr. Merrett says: "Then I would refer
20 counsel to the prior testimony --" anyway, it kind
21 of goes downhill from there and the deposition was
22 suspended.
23 BY MR. MOXON:
24 Q What was the basis for the assertion of the Fifth
25 to that question?
145
1 A I do not know.
2 Q Well, what was your good faith basis?
3 A I did not assert it.
4 Q So you don't know of any?
5 A I do not know what the basis of the assertion of
6 the privilege was.
7 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 BY MR. MOXON:
10 Q Page 128 of the deposition, I don't have the line
11 number, but the question is --
12 THE COURT: Wait a second. Let me get there.
13 Maybe I can help out.
14 MR. MOXON: Okay.
15 THE COURT: You guys usually have so many
16 copies of everything. It is so unlike you.
17 Okay. Okay, go ahead.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Touche.
19 BY MR. MOXON:
20 Q "Was any of this money paid to you later
21 transferred to Mr. Dandar?"
22 What was your good faith basis for the assertion
23 of the Fifth as to that question?
24 A I did not assert the Fifth on Mr. Minton's behalf
25 as to that question.
146
1 Q Well, what was the good faith basis of the
2 assertion of the Fifth Amendment as to that question? You
3 testified that every single question for which the Fifth was
4 asserted had a good faith basis. I'm simply asking you what
5 it was.
6 A You are deliberately misstating my statement on
7 that point. My statement, I believe all of the assertions
8 of the Fifth Amendment were made on good faith based on my
9 explanation to Mr. Minton of what incrimination was, of what
10 the Fifth Amendment covered, and of how to assert it, and
11 the instruction that he should assert it when he felt the
12 answer to a question might tend to incriminate him.
13 Q Okay. What was the good faith basis for the
14 assertion as to that question?
15 A I still don't know.
16 Q Well --
17 A That involves a factual determination about
18 Mr. Minton's activities, to which I was not privy.
19 Q So when you told him to assert the Fifth then, you
20 just left it up to him to assert the Fifth as to anything he
21 wanted. Is that correct?
22 A No.
23 Q Well, if I misunderstood your testimony, I thought
24 that you indicated that every single question for which the
25 Fifth was asserted, you believed there was an appropriate
147
1 basis, in your opinion as his counsel.
2 So you -- is it correct then that you just didn't
3 have any basis, for this question, to assert the Fifth?
4 A I did not assert the Fifth as to that question.
5 Not on my behalf, not on Mr. Minton's behalf.
6 Q I don't want to beat this to death, I --
7 A No, you do intend to apparently deliberately
8 misconstrue it. I told you what I explained to Mr. Minton
9 with respect to invocation of the Fifth Amendment. I did
10 not interrogate Mr. Minton about his activity. I do not
11 know the factual basis upon which he concluded that he might
12 be incriminated by a truthful answer to that question.
13 Consequently, while I assume that the invocation
14 was done in good faith, I do not know the basis for the
15 invocation.
16 Q Is that true as to every single question for which
17 the Fifth was asserted during that deposition --
18 A Is what true?
19 Q -- you didn't know the basis for it? You didn't
20 know the factual basis for why a Fifth Amendment assertion
21 against self-incrimination was asserted?
22 A I don't know if that was true for each question.
23 Q Well, tell me the basis for any question for which
24 the Fifth Amendment was asserted, why you thought there was
25 a good faith basis at that deposition to do so?
148
1 A I do not know what questions were met with an
2 invocation of the Fifth Amendment.
3 Q I'll give you another one. Look at Page 145. The
4 question is: "Did you use any of this $300,000 from
5 Mr. Lund to make any payments to Mr. Dandar?"
6 Do you know any good faith basis to assert the
7 Fifth as to this question concerning payments to Mr. Dandar?
8 A I do not know what the basis was.
9 THE COURT: Did he not say, Mr. Moxon -- you
10 let me know, because I read it in one of the
11 depositions, I don't know whether it was in both or
12 just one -- that he was going to assert the Fifth
13 Amendment as to every single question concerning
14 payments of money to anybody who fits within the
15 general framework of Scientology's -- I found it, on
16 Page 11 of that deposition.
17 "What bank did you use to make any payment to
18 LMT, what bank account?
19 "Answer: First of all let me just say
20 generally at this stage I don't intend to answer any
21 questions concerning my financial affairs. I will
22 be asserting my Fifth Amendment privilege on each
23 and every question concerning payments of money to
24 anybody who fits within the general framework of
25 Scientology's enterprise chart. I'm asserting my
149
1 Fifth --"
2 There is a question there.
3 "So what's the basis?
4 "Answer: Which you have. I'm asserting my
5 Fifth Amendment privilege and will do so on any
6 matters concerning payments of moneys."
7 The enterprise chart is in evidence, and my
8 recollection is, in reading this, that he continued
9 and -- and I believe that he -- he continued with
10 that, on anything involving money, and on any of
11 those people that were on that chart he continued to
12 maintain the Fifth.
13 So I don't know if you recall that or not.
14 THE WITNESS: I do recall the chart and the
15 alarm it caused.
16 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I would also like to point
17 out to you there was a stay entered at this time
18 concerning any money to me or the estate from any
19 source.
20 MR. MOXON: That is not accurate, but --
21 THE COURT: Well, you know, this is -- this is
22 a test of this witness's credibility and what it is
23 he knows. I just thought that perhaps that might
24 refresh his memory, that Mr. Minton said he was
25 going to assert this privilege.
150
1 Where is the enterprise chart? Is it -- I know
2 it's up here somewhere. Is the Lisa McPherson case
3 on it?
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
5 MR. LIROT: Yes.
6 MR. DANDAR: As well as Ken Dandar. But it's
7 up here with the clerk.
8 THE COURT: Then that is it. He indicated he
9 was not going to answer any questions about the
10 enterprise, the enterprise he has testified, or
11 Ms. Brooks has testified, or somebody has testified
12 he took to mean racketeering, and the Church of
13 Scientology was going to file a racketeering suit
14 so, therefore, anybody that is on this chart he was
15 not going to answer any questions about.
16 THE WITNESS: Well, and it was beyond the
17 filing of the suit. He suspected that Scientology
18 might be in a posture to suborn a racketeering
19 indictment or investigation out of the authorities.
20 THE COURT: And I think -- Mr. Moxon, I don't
21 know if you were at the next deposition, which was
22 even longer, because I read through more Fifth
23 Amendment than I ever imagined. But he said kind of
24 the same thing, he's going to assert the Fifth
25 Amendment.
151
1 So I think you have to assume that is what he
2 was doing and, therefore -- I mean, this fellow
3 doesn't remember much, but I remember that he said
4 that. And so --
5 MR. MOXON: Okay.
6 THE COURT: -- he was fairly consistent
7 throughout.
8 MR. MOXON: Understood.
9 BY MR. MOXON:
10 Q So you instructed Mr. Minton to assert the Fifth
11 as to any question that had any relation to money, if it was
12 paid to any person or entity that was on that chart. Is
13 that correct?
14 A I instructed Mr. Minton the meaning of the Fifth
15 Amendment, the meaning --
16 THE COURT: Asked and answered. Counsel, he's
17 not going to change his answer. He answered three
18 time now, or maybe more. Move on to your next
19 question.
20 BY MR. MOXON:
21 Q Let me talk to you about this person you were
22 dealing with who you called the "Fat Man," someone by the
23 name of the "Fat Man," is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you have some kind of direct communication
152
1 with this person?
2 A Yes.
3 Q This is communication by telephone?
4 A Yes.
5 Q How did you get the number?
6 A I didn't.
7 Q Did he call you?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How long did you talk to him?
10 A Five, ten minutes.
11 Q Did you recognize the voice?
12 A No.
13 Q Obviously it wasn't Robert Minton, correct?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Did he give you an account number?
16 A Who?
17 Q This person you talked to on the telephone?
18 A No.
19 Q How did you know how to contact him?
20 A I contacted him via Internet, requesting somebody
21 that would handle a confidential transaction.
22 Q Did you find him, or did he find you?
23 A It was kind of both.
24 Q Well, how did you find him? You just went on a
25 chat channel and said, "Is there anybody here who can help
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1 me? We need some money --"
2 A "I need somebody to help me. Contact me on DCC."
3 Q What kind of channel was this you were on?
4 A One of the Scientology chat channels.
5 Q Which one?
6 A I don't know.
7 THE COURT: Is it one of the Scientology -- I
8 think there are some pro-Scientology and
9 anti-Scientology chat rooms.
10 MR. MOXON: I think they are all
11 anti-Scientology --
12 THE COURT: Oh, are they? It was an
13 anti-Scientology -- I thought maybe the Church of
14 Scientology had a website.
15 MR. MOXON: Sure, they do. But the chat
16 channel is where people talk about --
17 THE COURT: See, I didn't know.
18 MR. MOXON: Yes.
19 BY MR. MOXON:
20 Q So you put up on the website -- correct me if I'm
21 wrong -- that you are looking for somebody to help you
22 transfer some money from one place to another secretly?
23 A No.
24 Q What did you ask for?
25 A I said on a chat channel that I needed someone to
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1 assist me with some confidential transfers of money and
2 communication.
3 Q How did you know that this money needed to be
4 transferred?
5 A Because I had been advised by Mr. Minton -- and I
6 don't know whether Ms. Brooks, as well -- but that there
7 were people in Europe who wished to contribute money but who
8 wished to be insulated from LMT in order to protect them
9 from reprisals from Scientology.
10 Q So you went on the chat channel. And somebody
11 answered and said, "I can handle it for you"?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you give the person your phone number?
14 A No.
15 Q How did he know how to contact you?
16 A I gave him the telephone number of a pay phone.
17 Q Okay. Then he called you at a pay phone at some
18 prescribed time?
19 A Yes.
20 THE COURT: Why didn't you give him your home
21 number?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't give anybody my home
23 number.
24 BY MR. MOXON:
25 Q Or your office number?
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1 A Well, I don't give my office number if I can help
2 it.
3 Q Why didn't you give this person your office
4 number?
5 A Because I elected to give him a pay phone number.
6 Q Why?
7 A Because that was the way that I chose to do it.
8 Q Okay. And this person called you. You had a
9 five-minute telephone conversation at this pay phone, right?
10 A Five to ten minutes. Yes.
11 Q This is in June of what year?
12 A I have not testified as to the month or the year,
13 Mr. Moxon.
14 Q Well, what month and year was it?
15 A I do not know.
16 Q What year was it?
17 A I believe it was 2001. But I'm not certain.
18 Q Approximately what month?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q Is that the only telephone conversation you had
21 with this person?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you make the arrangement with him?
24 A Beg pardon?
25 Q Did you make some arrangement with him?
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1 A What do you mean?
2 Q Well, did you -- tell me the entirety of the
3 conversation.
4 A I told him that I needed him to contact Andreas
5 Heldal-Lund at a given number and tell him he was calling on
6 behalf of people in Europe who wished to transfer money to
7 the Lisa McPherson Trust but wished to remain anonymous and
8 we are, therefore, dealing with him, who was unknown to
9 either Mr. Heldal-Lund or the LMT.
10 I instructed him that if Mr. Heldal-Lund agreed to
11 handle the transaction, that he should tell Mr. Heldal-Lund
12 to wait whatever period of time seemed appropriate to him,
13 but some specified time, thirty minutes, or an hour or two
14 hours, or a week or whatever, and that Mr. Lund should then
15 telephone the LMT and provide them -- or obtain from them
16 whatever information would be necessary to transfer the
17 funds.
18 I instructed him to then call the LMT and tell the
19 LMT -- tell Ms. Brooks or whoever he spoke to at the LMT
20 that he was representing people in Europe who wanted to
21 transfer money without being connected to the LMT, and that
22 she should be expecting a call -- they should be expecting a
23 call at whatever the specified time was from Mr. Heldal-Lund
24 to do the rest of the arrangements and get the rest of the
25 information necessary for the transfer.
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1 Q And you had no idea who this person was you had
2 this call with?
3 A Correct.
4 Q A perfect stranger, you gave him all this
5 intricate information concerning your clients about a secret
6 transfer that was going to be made through somebody else of
7 a large donation?
8 A Well, it wasn't a secret transfer. And there is
9 no information about my clients involved.
10 Q LMT is your client. Correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And there is a transfer that was going to be made
13 to LMT?
14 A Correct.
15 Q And you trusted this person to carry out these
16 detailed instructions?
17 A Well, I would know soon enough if they weren't
18 carried out.
19 Q Okay. You proceeded to trust them?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you gave them LMT -- a way to reach LMT?
22 A A telephone number.
23 Q You gave them a way to reach Heldal-Lund?
24 A Telephone number.
25 THE COURT: This is just amazing. This is
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1 mind-boggling because, you know, I don't think like
2 this. So I have to take a little break, because
3 since we'll go on past five, and I am going to go
4 until we finish this witness, because I more or less
5 indicated we would try to finish him today and I
6 need to honor that if I can, I'm going to take a
7 15-minute break, so everybody can call, like madam
8 court reporter, if you need to call for relief or
9 whatever, or if you are here for the duration you
10 might want to make a call home. Those who did not
11 expect to stay late might want to call home. We'll
12 try to -- I need to make a few calls since I'll not
13 be able to do what I had otherwise planned and we're
14 going to finish.
15 We'll be in recess for fifteen minutes.
16 (Whereupon a recess was taken from 5:00 to 5:18
17 p.m.)
18 (The proceedings continue in Volume 2.)
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