KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 8 TESTIMONY OF CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG ROBERT MINTON SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 24, 2002. Morning Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 932 APPEARANCES: MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. Attorney for Robert Minton MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 Attorney for Stacy Brooks
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 933 ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw Mr. Brian Asay Ms. Joyce Earl Ms. Patricia Greenway
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 934 1 (The proceedings began at 9:05 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Did we want to take up this 3 request to produce this morning? 4 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: I don't know where it is. 6 MR. HOWIE: You're referring to Mr. Dandar's 7 request to produce records of Robert Minton? 8 THE COURT: No. I'm talking about the 9 Church's motion to produce, request to produce, 10 something from the Estate. 11 MR. DANDAR: Bank checks and -- 12 THE COURT: Right. Whatever I got 13 yesterday, and I said -- well, lots of times I say 14 we'll take these things up, but then we never do. So 15 they're just kind of floating around out there. 16 MR. HOWIE: Well, your Honor -- your Honor, 17 as long as I'm on my feet, I would like to address 18 Mr. Dandar's request to produce for Mr. Minton. 19 THE COURT: All right. I don't have it, so 20 I don't know what it is. 21 MR. HOWIE: Well, I'm about to provide that 22 to you. If you recall, three days ago -- and I'm 23 providing right now the Court with the original of a 24 letter from Jean Pierre, Jacque Moude, J-a-c-q-u-e 25 M-o-u-d-e of Geneva, Switzerland, dated -- or,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 935 1 executed in Geneva May 22nd, 2002, and purportedly 2 signed by him in reference to three checks issued by 3 the UBS. 4 Now, I realize this was not an entirely 5 adequate response for the purposes of request to 6 produce, but the Court has directed us within 48 7 hours, which ran as of about 5 o'clock yesterday, to 8 advise the Court on what efforts and diligence 9 Mr. Minton has made in order to secure these 10 documents. This is what we were able to do -- I 11 should say what Mr. Minton was able to do in that 12 short period of time. 13 Of course, Mr. Minton will -- will accept 14 inquiry into his efforts on this point. But the point 15 is that on Monday -- which is not a holiday in Europe, 16 obviously -- Mr. Minton will make efforts to actually 17 secure from the bank itself the documentation that 18 shows that the source of these funds in these three 19 checks were his. 20 To identify the three checks in order, 21 the 992 check, the first one numbered there, is the 22 half million dollar check, which is in evidence, the 23 check to Ken Dandar in the amount of half million 24 dollars; the second check, the 242 check, is the check 25 for a quarter million dollars, again to Mr. Dandar;
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 936 1 the third check, 493, is, if I understand correctly, a 2 UBS check in the amount of $300,000, approximately, to 3 I believe the Lisa McPherson Trust, if I'm not 4 mistaken, although I may stand corrected on that 5 point. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Was there not another 7 $500,000 check? 8 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, there is, and 9 Mr. Minton is able to respond to that. 10 MR. MINTON: Can I tell him something? 11 THE COURT: Sure. 12 (Mr. Minton spoke to Mr. Howie off the 13 record.) 14 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, the $500,000 check 15 that you're referring to was in fact not a check but a 16 wire transfer, and so we need to obtain documentation 17 concerning the wire transfer. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Is that adequate? 19 MR. DANDAR: No. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. DANDAR: This is a letter from the 22 lawyer. I don't know who the lawyer represents. It's 23 not a letter to the bank. It doesn't identify the 24 name of the bank. It doesn't identify the account 25 numbers out of which these checks held the funds that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 937 1 were transferred ultimately to UBS, which I still 2 believe, based upon what I know, is the crux of why 3 we're going through this hearing. 4 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I realize this does 5 not complete the -- 6 THE COURT: What you're suggesting is that 7 this is the best you could do in 48 hours. 8 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 9 THE COURT: All right. For now, I think 10 that's a good-faith effort, and I will accept that. 11 MR. HOWIE: And Mr. Minton is continuing 12 those efforts. And we understand that Mr. Dandar's 13 chief concern is establishing that the source of these 14 funds was in fact Mr. Minton, if we understand the 15 request correctly. 16 MR. DANDAR: We know that through testimony, 17 correct, but we need to establish where this money 18 came from, the identity of the account holder of those 19 funds. And I believe there are multiple accounts 20 involved which culminated in the UBS checks, which I 21 believe is what caused Mr. Minton to do what he's 22 doing since April 5th. 23 THE COURT: Well, why don't you make your 24 inquiry at the appropriate time of Mr. Minton, and 25 we'll see where that leads us. And then we'll see
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 938 1 what -- what else needs to be done. 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 THE COURT: But I have been told at this 4 time this is a 48-hour effort. I think it's a 5 good-faith effort. It's something I didn't give much 6 time or we didn't give much time, and so we'll see 7 what comes in next. 8 But you understand what it is that he's 9 looking for? 10 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, one other point 13 while I have the Court's attention, and I will proceed 14 as the Court directs me to proceed. But at the 15 conclusion of Mr. Minton's testimony, either whether 16 recross or redirect at that point, I will ask 17 permission of the Court to voir dire Mr. Minton on 18 certain points pertaining specifically to recantation. 19 Obviously, my chief goal here is to make 20 sure that he makes a complete, clean breast of things, 21 that he recants as the statute requires him to recant, 22 following the procedure set out in the statute. 23 My alternative, of course, is to present and 24 file an affidavit. I can do either one, but I would 25 prefer to proceed by voir dire as long as he's under
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 939 1 oath on the stand and subject to inquiry by the Court. 2 THE COURT: Let's see where we are, how much 3 time we have. To be honest, we're just running at a 4 snail's pace. 5 MR. HOWIE: I can assure the Court I would 6 be very quick and to the point. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. FUGATE: May it please your Honor? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. FUGATE: I spoke with Wally Pope. This 11 is in line with some things that your Honor indicated 12 yesterday. And he has sent me a copy of this letter, 13 and he indicated that he called Ms. Bloemendaal and 14 asked permission to provide it to your Honor in light 15 of some of the things that have been said in this 16 case. And I told him that I would do that and get 17 permission to provide it to the Court. 18 I think it covers a series of the areas that 19 we had been talking about. And his position is he 20 wants the Court to be aware that this is going on and 21 that he has nothing to hide, I guess is his position. 22 THE COURT: Okay. I haven't read this. I 23 just got it handed to me, so I have no idea what it 24 is. So if you all will just give me a minute so I can 25 read it so I know what he's talking about.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 940 1 MR. DANDAR: Let me object first. This is 2 my response to Mr. Pope's Bar complaint against me, 3 representing the Church of Scientology. It's a 4 privileged matter as far as I understand. I don't 5 think Mr. Pope or the Florida Bar, for which you have 6 no letter from, can waive the confidentiality. So I 7 think this is improper for the counsel to present it 8 to you. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Why is it being 10 presented? 11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor -- 12 THE COURT: That is my understanding too, 13 that if the Bar -- 14 MR. FUGATE: Unless -- unless the matter has 15 otherwise been made public. And I think if you'll 16 read the letter, you'll see what I'm referring to and 17 why he wanted to make sure that you were provided a 18 copy. 19 THE COURT: Who wanted to be sure? 20 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Pope. And it's my 21 understanding that he contacted Susan Bloemendaal and 22 said, you know: "I would like to be able to provide 23 this to the Court. Is there a problem with that?" 24 And he was advised there isn't a problem with that. 25 THE COURT: Well, I'll tell you what. In an
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 941 1 abundance of caution -- Mr. Dandar says that it's 2 confidential; it's his letter. Mr. Pope through you 3 is saying he contacted the Bar, and they said it could 4 be provided to me. I suppose my best course of action 5 here is to call Ms. Bloemendaal myself. 6 MR. FUGATE: I have no objection to that, 7 Judge. And I think that's Mr. Pope's purpose and 8 desire. And as I say, I think the letter speaks for 9 itself. 10 THE COURT: Okay. And so do you have any 11 problem with that? 12 MR. DANDAR: No, Judge. If you contact the 13 Bar and the Bar says they can waive my privilege, then 14 that'll be fine. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. FUGATE: I think it's Mr. Pope's 17 privilege that's addressed in this letter, and he's 18 indicating that he waives it and has no objection to 19 your Honor having this letter and reading it. It's a 20 Bar complaint against Mr. Pope by Mr. Dandar. 21 THE COURT: Oh, well, then that's not 22 your -- I thought -- Mr. Dandar thought, I think, that 23 this had to do with some response of his to a Bar 24 complaint filed by the Church of Scientology. I 25 thought --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 942 1 MR. FUGATE: There was no Bar -- well, 2 that's not accurate, Judge. This deals with the 3 testimony that occurred in front of Judge Baird, which 4 under the Florida Bar rules, the lawyers that are 5 present there have a requirement to provide to the 6 Bar, under the rules -- and as a matter of fact, I was 7 present at that proceeding, and I asked Mr. Pope. 8 And he said: I've already checked with the 9 Bar and we have an obligation to do it and I've 10 written a letter and attached the transcript. 11 Because I would have done the same thing. 12 So if I -- if I'm in line for a complaint as well, so 13 be it. But the point of this is this letter is a Bar 14 complaint against Mr. Pope, and he wanted the Court to 15 be aware of it and have a copy of it. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. DANDAR: This is my response to 18 Mr. Pope's complaint against me. And that's what that 19 reference clause is and that's what the number is. 20 THE COURT: Yes, that's what it would seem 21 like. 22 MR. FUGATE: Look at the third paragraph. 23 THE COURT: Well, I see that too. But I 24 also see "Inquiry, Complaint of F. Wallace Pope" at 25 the top, with a number. And consequently, it may have
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 943 1 some dual purpose, in which case I'm going to just be 2 sure about this and contact the Bar. 3 MR. FUGATE: I have no problem with that, 4 Judge. 5 THE COURT: Unless Mr. Dandar wants to waive 6 the privilege, in which case I don't have a problem. 7 But if he does -- 8 MR. DANDAR: I hate waiving anything. I 9 mean, I just don't know where it leads after I start 10 waiving things. 11 THE COURT: I understand. 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I want to bring to your 13 attention what I believe is witness tampering by the 14 Church of Scientology. 15 THE COURT: Isn't it a wonderful day -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Isn't it wonderful? 17 THE COURT: -- to start? It's just such a 18 wonderful day. 19 MR. DANDAR: I can't help it, but you 20 ordered Mr. Franks yesterday to appear. They refused 21 to produce the agreement or release they have with 22 Mr. Franks. You ordered him to appear based upon the 23 subpoena he was served. And here's Mr. Drescher from 24 the Church of Scientology threatening him that he 25 better not appear.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 944 1 MR. FUGATE: Are you going to produce a 2 copy -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: This is a May 20th letter. 4 MR. DANDAR: Did I give you the wrong one? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know. You gave me a 6 May 20th letter. 7 THE COURT: What's today? 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: The 24th. 9 MR. MOXON: 24th, 5th? 4th. 10 THE COURT: I don't think I've seen this 11 letter. I think this is not in the packet of letters 12 that I got. 13 MR. DANDAR: Correct. This is a new one. 14 It's apparently misdated. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me. You know, 17 come on. What do you mean, it's misdated? You just 18 handed me this thing and it has May 20th on it and 19 it's signed by Mr. Drescher. 20 THE COURT: It doesn't really matter to me. 21 I haven't seen it. And I'm -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, I didn't mean 23 to . . . 24 MR. DANDAR: It's a different letter from 25 the other one.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 945 1 THE COURT: Yes. I don't have this, and I 2 don't honestly know up here -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: I think you put them in the 4 front. 5 THE COURT: I think I put them somewhere 6 thinking I wouldn't have to see them for quite a 7 while. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I think you had them right up 9 front. 10 THE COURT: Yes. Gee, you're right. 11 Thanks. I'd forgotten. 12 MR. DANDAR: Well, I can tell you, Judge, 13 the one I handed you is dated May 20th, 2002. The one 14 that was presented to you yesterday or the day before 15 is dated May 20th, 2000. 16 THE COURT: Yes. That's clearly -- that's 17 certainly an error. 18 MR. DANDAR: This was just faxed to us this 19 morning by Mr. Franks -- Drescher. Actually, I think 20 it was yesterday evening. 21 MR. MOXON: With a cover letter from 22 Mr. Franks, Mr. Dandar? 23 MR. DANDAR: I have the letter, but that's 24 in my possession. 25 MR. MOXON: Can I see the cover letter?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 946 1 MR. DANDAR: No. Go sit down. 2 THE COURT: All right, men. I'm not going 3 to put up with it. 4 Well, Mr. Dandar, all I can suggest is I 5 have a subpoena out there, I guess, and it's the 6 Court's -- the subpoena is really just a command of 7 the Court. And I can't imagine that there's any 8 agreement that says that somebody can be fined for 9 coming to court on a command of the Court, which is 10 what I consider a subpoena. 11 As far as I'm concerned, it's my demand. I 12 expect him to be here, and if there's some agreement 13 that says that a Court can't demand a witness to 14 appear in court, well, then we'll just have to see how 15 far that goes in the court. 16 And I would suggest that this does not make 17 the Court look good. I mean, he says he needs this 18 man for this hearing. You know, if there's something 19 going on with the breach of contract, go sue the man. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if I may, but, your 21 Honor, he hasn't said why. And -- and he's already -- 22 he hasn't said why. He's already had an experience 23 with other people that have entered agreements. And 24 what he's doing is, through a subterfuge, is trying -- 25 obviously, the Court can order anybody to appear, and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 947 1 there's no agreement anywhere in the world that would 2 prevent the Court from ordering somebody to appear, 3 unless -- no, nothing that would prevent the Court, 4 but Mr. Franks is prevented from entering into a 5 subterfuge to circumvent the agreement -- for example, 6 by coming to the International Mall in Tampa from out 7 of state, making himself available for a subpoena. 8 THE COURT: But that sounds like something 9 that goes on in a lawsuit that's filed -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: No, no -- 11 THE COURT: -- for a contract. Oh, I feel 12 certain that it will, but that's not my problem. This 13 is a witness. He's got him served. I haven't seen 14 the agreement yet. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we -- 16 THE COURT: You have it. 17 MR. WEINBERG: We don't. But we were 18 provided -- apparently, there's going to be some -- 19 THE COURT: If you needed it in your case, 20 you could have had the thing in five minutes. I don't 21 have it. You could have it; you don't have it. So 22 that's the deal. My subpoena stands. I expect the 23 man to be here, period. You got a lawsuit to file, 24 file it. 25 MR. WEINBERG: And we'll cross-examine him
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 948 1 on -- 2 THE COURT: No, you won't in my court, 3 because that has to do with the lawsuit you've got. 4 He comes into my court to testify to something 5 relevant to these proceedings. And if he doesn't have 6 anything relevant to these proceedings, he'll be gone 7 as fast as he got here. 8 MR. WEINBERG: But -- 9 THE COURT: If he has something relevant -- 10 you aren't going to cross-examine as to his service. 11 That has to do with some lawsuit you've got. 12 MR. WEINBERG: As to his -- 13 THE COURT: Go file it. Take discovery. 14 MR. WEINBERG: -- previous agreements with 15 the Church, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it. I'm 17 not interested in it. I'm not interested in previous 18 agreements with the Church as -- he has relevant 19 information in this case. He's been subpoenaed. He 20 needs to come in and give it. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, he was with the 22 Church, and the circumstances that he left the Church 23 would be, I would suppose, would be relevant to 24 whatever it is he's going to say about the Church. 25 THE COURT: I don't know. Whatever is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 949 1 relevant, certainly you can cross-examine him on. But 2 you're not going to cross-examine him on how it is 3 that he happened to be served and subterfuge and all 4 that sort of stuff. That certainly is not relevant to 5 these proceedings. How he left the Church, sure, that 6 might be relevant. I don't know what he's going to 7 say. I don't if he even knows anything relevant. 8 MR. WEINBERG: It would be surprising since 9 he left in 1982. 10 THE COURT: It would be, but all I know is 11 he says he needs him based on your motion to dismiss. 12 He's got him served. That's a summons from the Court. 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the only thing I rose to 14 say is we already did this. You already said that was 15 your position. We already agreed with that position. 16 This letter is very much like the letter that I wrote 17 to Mr. Dandar, reminding him that there was an 18 agreement. As Judge Moody said, you can make a 19 decision: You can breach the agreement or you can go 20 forward. 21 THE COURT: You people never like it when 22 anybody says anything that you think is critical. 23 Frankly, I don't like this. Luckily, it isn't one of 24 you. It's some other lawyer who is not in front of 25 me. If it were, I would be chastising him.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 950 1 I look at this as witness intimidation. If 2 I thought for a minute that you all were in any way 3 involved in it, I would consider a motion to dismiss 4 your counterclaim. 5 I'm not going to have it. I don't know who 6 William Drescher is. He's not a lawyer in front of 7 me. I don't like it. This is a clear effort to keep 8 a man from coming to this Court. I don't like it, and 9 I hope you all had nothing to do with it. If you did, 10 you'll answer accordingly. That's all I'm going to 11 say. I want to move on in this hearing. 12 Mr. Minton. 13 (Mr. Minton took the stand.) 14 THE COURT: I mean, it's just really quite 15 amazing. If this man doesn't have any relevant 16 information, why doesn't he come in here and get on 17 and off the stand in five minutes? Sounds to me like 18 he's got something that must be critical the way all 19 these letters are flying back and forth. 20 Proceed, Mr. Dandar. 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF ROBERT MINTON (RESUMED) 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Mr. Minton, have you talked to anyone about your 24 testimony yesterday? 25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 951 1 Q Have you talked to anyone about what you may be 2 asked today? 3 A No. 4 Q Okay. 5 THE COURT: Oh, let me -- 6 Q This -- 7 THE COURT: -- let me -- excuse me just a 8 second. I need to put this somewhere before I start 9 to read it. I'm going to put this over here. At the 10 first break I'll see if I can get in touch with 11 Ms. Bloemendaal. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: All right. I'm sorry, go ahead. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Mr. Minton, we started off yesterday about -- 16 talking about this social worker, Diane Palermo 17 (unconfirmed spelling). 18 A Right. 19 Q And isn't it true, sir, that when she was asked 20 to write a note to Judge Baird to try to get you out of the 21 August 3rd, 2001, deposition and she refused to do that, 22 you went on the Internet and condemned her for not 23 cooperating with you? Is that right? 24 A That is not true. 25 Q Do you remember going on the Internet and talking
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 952 1 about Diane Palermo after she refused to write this note to 2 Judge Baird? 3 A No, I don't. 4 Q Okay. 5 A I remembered the post on the Internet that we 6 talked about yesterday, which was prior to any talking to 7 her. 8 MR. DANDAR: Here I go trying to ask you a 9 question, and I can't find what I'm looking for. I'm 10 sorry. 11 Okay. 12 Plaintiff's? 13 THE CLERK: 47. 14 MR. DANDAR: 47. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Mr. Minton, let me show you Plaintiff's 17 Exhibit 47. Is that an e-mail post, an 18 alt.religion.scientology post? 19 A Well, I'm going to read it, if you don't mind. 20 Q No, no. Sure, go ahead. 21 A This is -- it's not clear to me what this is, 22 Mr. Dandar. 23 THE COURT: Me either. 24 A It's got part testimony at the top; somebody 25 else's name at the bottom.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 953 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q All right. Let me ask you, to see what we're 3 talking about, at the top -- well, where it says "from," it 4 says "from Bobminton@lisatrust.net." Isn't that one of 5 your e-mail addresses? 6 THE COURT: Actually, at the top, I think 7 what Mr. Minton is referring to, it looks like some 8 deposition, because it's got line 11, 12. See, look 9 at line 18. Answer: "Yes." 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm sorry. You're right. 11 A That's Stacy Brooks' testimony in -- 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Okay. 14 A -- this case, I believe. 15 Q All right. Let's go below that. What I'm 16 talking about is the e-mail, or the post, to 17 alt.religion.scientology. 18 A I see that. 19 Q All right. Is that your posting? 20 A It wouldn't appear to be. 21 Q Why is that? 22 A Since it's got Mike Gormez's name down at the 23 bottom of it. It may be quoting a post of mine from 24 August 1st. 25 Q Oh, okay. So there's another post dated
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 954 1 August 1st that Mr. Gormez is responding to? 2 A Well, obviously, there is a part of this post 3 that's cut off, the part above, where Diane contacted me, 4 those little three dots. This doesn't appear to be a 5 complete message. 6 Q Okay. All right. Then put that aside. If 7 that's not complete, I'll find it later. 8 THE COURT: I don't really understand these 9 things. This is you, Mr. Minton, 10 Bobminton@lisatrust.net? 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 THE COURT: And then "Subject: Re: Bob 13 Minton," that doesn't sound like something you would 14 write as a subject. 15 THE WITNESS: That's right. This is -- this 16 is a follow-up message, your Honor, to a message that 17 I wrote. 18 THE COURT: You wrote a message and then -- 19 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor -- 20 THE COURT: The subject of this is "Bob 21 Minton, your outing of Diane is the last straw for 22 me." So this is not from you, right? 23 THE WITNESS: That's right. This is a 24 message that somebody wrote after I posted information 25 about Diane Palermo, before I ever talked to Diane
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 955 1 Palermo in any context around this event you've been 2 talking about, Mr. Dandar. 3 And that's why I say that this is not a 4 message -- this is not a complete message. There's 5 stuff that has been eliminated from -- 6 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: -- the message. 8 THE COURT: This is not admissible -- 9 MR. DANDAR: No. 10 THE COURT: -- in its present form. 11 So, Madam Clerk, this is not in. 12 MR. DANDAR: Right. 13 THE COURT: This is just not in. 14 MR. DANDAR: And that's Plaintiff's 15 Exhibit 47. 16 THE COURT: 47. 17 MR. DANDAR: And it's my inability to 18 understand how to do this as well. 19 Let me hand the witness, though, Plaintiff's 20 Exhibit 48 and see if this maybe caused the 47 to be 21 written. I'm not sure either. 22 THE WITNESS: This is not a post of mine. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q No. Is that something that you -- Stacy Brooks 25 wrote, as far as you know?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 956 1 A She may have, but I think -- you know, I have no 2 reason to believe it's not. It doesn't, you know, appear 3 to be -- it would appear to be a post of Stacy Brooks. 4 But, you know, I think Stacy Brooks is better able to 5 determine that than I am. 6 Q Do you see any of your postings in this clip-it 7 from alt.religion.scientology? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: The postings -- the posts that 11 are in here, Stacy Brooks -- this is her message. 12 She's responding to what Monica Pignotti wrote. And 13 you'll see there, your Honor, it says on Wednesday, 14 1st August, you know, dates and all that -- 15 THE COURT: Right. 16 THE WITNESS: -- Monica Pignotti wrote. And 17 then everything that's in -- has that little caret in 18 front of it is something Monica Pignotti wrote. And 19 then everything that's not in the carets -- 20 THE COURT: Then where it starts, "Monica, 21 Diane," that's Ms. Brooks. 22 THE WITNESS: That's Ms. Brooks talking, and 23 this is her post. 24 THE COURT: Okay. I was looking on the next 25 page.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 957 1 THE WITNESS: And again, that continues to 2 be -- 3 THE COURT: That would be Ms. Brooks. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, Monica Pignotti and 5 Ms. Brooks, yes. 6 THE COURT: Is Ms. Pignotti back in there 7 some too? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, on the second page. 9 THE COURT: Carets again? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, the first paragraph and 11 the next-to-the-last paragraph. 12 THE COURT: Okay. So this is a discussion 13 between this Ms. Pignotti and Ms. Brooks. 14 THE WITNESS: It would appear to be. 15 THE COURT: This man can't authenticate 16 that. 17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 18 THE COURT: Now, if there's something in 19 there you want him to read and comment on -- 20 MR. DANDAR: I'm just going to ask him a few 21 questions. 22 MR. WEINBERG: The document is not in 23 evidence? 24 THE COURT: The document is not in evidence, 25 neither 47 or 48.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 958 1 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 2 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks is still here. If 48 3 is important, presumably she can authenticate it, but 4 he can't. 5 MR. DANDAR: Right. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Mr. Minton, do you recall outing Diane Palermo -- 8 A No. 9 Q -- on alt.religion.scientology? 10 A No. 11 Q When Ms. Brooks writes about -- or someone writes 12 about the outing of Diane Palermo by you, do you have any 13 idea what they're referring to? 14 A I do. 15 Q All right. What is that? 16 A Revealing the identity of a person who is 17 supposedly anonymous. 18 Q And did you post Diane Palermo's name and other 19 identification information on alt.religion.scientology? 20 A After Diane Palermo had posted her own name. 21 Q So why were you being accused of outing her? 22 A Because they're a group of people who like to 23 accuse me of doing practically everything. 24 Q Do you deny -- 25 A They were -- they were focused on the fact that I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 959 1 indicated that she had -- that when she told her story that 2 she didn't tell it all because of her relationship with 3 someone in the Church of Scientology in New York. 4 Q Mr. Carmichael. 5 A Right. 6 Q All right. 7 A That was what people said was an outing. But an 8 outing is outing someone's name that has not previously 9 been revealed. 10 Q Okay. And you were not the one who first did 11 that to Diane Palermo? 12 A Diane Palermo posted her own name. 13 Q Did she post it in a fashion that connected her 14 with you? 15 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm going to object 16 to the relevance. If I understood what Mr. Minton 17 said, he said this was all before he was supposed to 18 be testifying. 19 THE COURT: Yes. I'm having a real hard 20 time figuring the relevance. 21 THE WITNESS: I mean, I -- if you could tell 22 me the date that -- 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q August 3rd, 2001, was the date of your 25 deposition.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 960 1 A Well, all these things are before -- are 2 August 1st or earlier. 3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. So I'll move on to 4 something else. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Now, Mr. Rinder, after you -- 8 THE COURT: Mr. Rinder? 9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton. 10 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Minton. I just saw 11 "Rinder" on my notes, sorry. 12 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 13 MR. DANDAR: It was a long night last night. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Mr. Minton, after you started to loan money for 16 the Lisa McPherson case, did you have meetings with 17 Mr. Rinder of the Church of Scientology? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Why did you meet with Mr. Rinder while the 20 wrongful death case was proceeding that you were funding or 21 providing loans to? 22 A Well, in -- well, at the time -- just let me give 23 you an idea, is at the time, you know, I perceived my 24 funding of this case and other cases as some leverage to 25 use with Scientology. And what Ms. Brooks and I -- well, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 961 1 had three meetings with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rathbun. 2 MR. FUGATE: Can we have the dates of those, 3 your Honor? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. They were in -- I think 5 the first one was in May of '98. There was a 6 subsequent -- early May. There was a subsequent one 7 in May of '98 right at the end of the month. And then 8 I think there was a June or July one. The first one 9 was in Los Angeles, the second one in Boston, and the 10 third one was in Los Angeles again. 11 THE COURT: Again, are we talking June or 12 July of '98? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, '98, yes. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q July 1998 was 5 1/2 hours? 16 A I don't remember. But I think I posted about it, 17 and you could probably refresh my memory. 18 Q I'll try. But go ahead and tell us why you met 19 with him. 20 A The purpose of Ms. Brooks and I meeting with him 21 the first time was to see if we could persuade the senior 22 management of the Church to, number one, open up a 23 communication line to people who were willing to actually 24 talk with them, rather than, you know, go out off on the 25 Internet and just criticize them all the time, just to see
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 962 1 if we could open up a dialogue between the, quote, critic 2 community. 3 But from their standpoint, you know, they wanted 4 to make sure this was the, quote, "reasonable" critic 5 community and secondly to see if they could -- if they were 6 willing to institute some reforms that we thought might be 7 a good thing. 8 Q The reforms that you thought might be a good 9 thing had nothing to do with their beliefs, did it? 10 A I believe they thought they did. 11 Q In your mind, it had to do with their abusive 12 tactics against their critics? 13 A We were focused on internal matters, as opposed 14 to external matters. 15 Q Okay. What internal matters were you focused on? 16 A Well, for example, the Rehabilitation Project 17 Force, and we had extensive discussions with Mr. Rathbun, 18 who had been recently in charge of -- as I remember, what 19 he told me, in charge of a major revamping of the 20 Rehabilitation Project Force. And, you know, some of that 21 allayed the -- some of our concerns about that; not all. 22 That, for example, was one I remember which was 23 high on the list of items discussed. 24 Q And you weren't concerned at all with the way 25 Scientology approaches or treats the ex-Scientologists or
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 963 1 critics of Scientology? 2 A Well, we thought that opening a dialogue would be 3 a useful way to begin to understand the problems on both 4 sides, including problems that related to, you know, how 5 people perceived they were treated by Scientology, how 6 Scientology perceived they were treated by critics, both 7 former Scientologists and not former Scientologists. 8 Q So -- so when you actually met with Mr. Rinder, 9 you had noble and good intentions? 10 A Well, this is something that, you know -- Stacy 11 felt that this is something they might be willing to listen 12 to. 13 Q Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 49. Is this 14 a post by you to alt.religion.scientology on July 14th, 15 1998? 16 A Yes, that is a post that I made. 17 Q So after 5 1/2 hours, the only good thing you can 18 say about it were they recommended a good sushi restaurant 19 and Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rathbun are superbly qualified 20 representatives of Scientology, RTC, and OSA? 21 A Right. That's what I said. 22 Q Do you feel you accomplished anything in the 23 5 1/2 hour meeting in July of '98? 24 A Nothing that we set out to accomplish, no. 25 Q Were there any threats made by them to you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 964 1 concerning your loans or other type of funding to 2 litigation involving the Church of Scientology? 3 A No. There was -- there was a suggestion in the 4 second and third meetings that a sort of global settlement 5 agreement could be reached. In one of those meetings, they 6 presented a document to me that was a settlement agreement. 7 Q Did that concern -- what case? 8 A It concerned all the cases and individuals that I 9 was involved with at the time. 10 Q Did it include the Lisa McPherson death case? 11 A It did. 12 Q Did you represent to Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rathbun 13 that you had been appointed by the Estate to represent it 14 in settlement negotiations? 15 A Mr. Dandar, perhaps you're having trouble with 16 the English language here. 17 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 18 A It was not settling -- 19 THE COURT: Please don't do that. Just 20 answer. 21 A Okay. This was not a settlement agreement about 22 settling the case. Okay? So the answer to your question 23 is no. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q What was it about? Settling what?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 965 1 A Settling my outstanding issues with the Church of 2 Scientology. 3 Q And part of that settlement, quote, unquote, 4 settlement discussions, were to have you stop providing 5 money to these litigants, correct? 6 A Litigants and others. 7 Q Including the Lisa McPherson case? 8 A To the best of my recollection, yes. 9 EXAMINATION 10 BY THE COURT: 11 Q I guess I just don't understand. What issues did 12 you have with the Church that you needed to settle? I 13 mean, usually a settlement agreement, there's something -- 14 a give and take on both sides, and there's something that 15 one's getting in exchange for giving and this type of 16 thing. They wanted you to stop funding lawsuits, including 17 this case. And in exchange, what were they going to do for 18 you? 19 A You know, I don't really remember because I 20 didn't see much, you know, in it for me, you know, in terms 21 of -- 22 Q Well, you went there to talk to them about a 23 global settlement agreement. What were you trying to get 24 from them? 25 A No, your Honor.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 966 1 Q Oh. 2 A I didn't say we went there to talk to them about 3 a global settlement agreement. They brought that up during 4 the course of either the second -- it was the third 5 meeting, because it was in Los Angeles. And it wasn't at 6 the meeting that Stacy Brooks was in in Los Angeles, so it 7 had to be the second meeting in Los Angeles. You know, 8 they brought it up, not me. 9 Q Well, what were they trying -- what were they 10 going to give you? If you did this, what was in it for 11 you, Mr. Minton? 12 A Well, as I said, I didn't see much in it at all. 13 I mean, you know, it was, you know, just basically, you 14 know, "leave us alone and we'll leave you alone" type 15 thing. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q And what were they doing or saying they were 19 planning on doing to you, Mr. Minton, or your family if you 20 didn't leave them alone? 21 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object. That 22 assumes facts not in evidence. It's argumentative. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 A They made no threats whatsoever. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 967 1 Q None. Did you ever post about any threats 2 shortly thereafter? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q Your best recollection today is the summer of 5 '98, during these series of meetings, no threats were made 6 to you? 7 A I don't believe so. 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY THE COURT: 10 Q I believe in your deposition you indicated you 11 spent 15 1/2 hours meeting with them. Is that about right? 12 A The combination of those three meetings, yes. 13 Q Okay. So for 15 1/2 hours, you talked about 14 nothing? I mean, there was nothing -- no issues? They 15 didn't offer you anything, you didn't have anything to 16 offer them, so you all just sat and looked at each other 17 for 15 1/2 hours? 18 A Well, there was a lot of information provided to 19 me, which, quite honestly, your Honor, had I listened to at 20 the time I wouldn't be in the problem I'm in today. 21 Q Well, tell us about that, then. 22 A Well, it was largely information about some of 23 the people that I was involved in funding. There was 24 information about some of the lawyers that I was working 25 with.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 968 1 And, you know, I -- you know, at that time, just 2 like everybody else who was involved in this thing, you 3 know, you're just automatically geared to not believe what 4 they're telling you, that, you know, just like, you know, 5 from their perspective, you know, they see that a lot of 6 these disaffected Scientologists are -- you know, through 7 their affidavits and other things, have, you know, 8 tremendously exaggerated their experiences and problems 9 with the Church. You know, I think we've already seen here 10 that that's to some extent true. 11 Q I think I mentioned in court that it seems to be, 12 from what I read on these postings, that if the cult -- 13 that if the anti-cult people think that Scientology is 14 rabid or whatever they must think of them -- 15 A Right. 16 Q -- certainly they sound rabid to an outsider like 17 me reading whatever it is they're saying. So it sounds 18 like, whatever it is they're criticizing, they need to just 19 kind of look inward. 20 A You mean the critics or -- 21 Q The critics. 22 A Well, I would say almost without a doubt that the 23 critics are far more rabid than the Church is. I mean, the 24 Church doesn't get on the Internet with the kind of stuff 25 that the critics get on there.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 969 1 Q Well, as I said, I don't know what the Church 2 does because I've not seen too many of their postings, if 3 any. Most of the postings I see are the critics' 4 postings -- 5 A Right. 6 Q -- and then occasionally I see something that 7 looks like it might be somebody trying to defend the Church 8 in some ugly fashion. 9 A Right. 10 Q But what I see from the critics oftentimes is 11 fairly rabid and fairly distasteful. 12 A It is, your Honor. And, you know, I'm certainly 13 guilty of that as well. I've done that. 14 Q Yes, indeed you are. I've read some pretty ugly 15 e-mails or whatever you call them, postings. 16 A Usenet postings, they're called. 17 Q Right. I'm still having a hard time. So they're 18 telling you that this is -- you really ought not fund these 19 people. You're putting out a lot of your money. You told 20 us about $10 million. So you put out a lot of money. 21 You're funding this, you're lending money to this lawyer, 22 funding this lawsuit, the Lisa McPherson. They wanted you 23 to stop that, right? 24 A Well -- 25 Q That's what you said in your deposition.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 970 1 A Yes. 2 Q If you don't remember it, I'll read it. 3 A Yes, your Honor, that's basically it. But the 4 way they were doing that is, you know, they were -- they 5 were trying to provide information that basically I had a 6 built-in mechanism not to look at or believe, you know. 7 And they provided lots of information. 8 I remember the second meeting in Boston, you 9 know, they didn't come in with a bunch of boxes like are on 10 the bench back there, but maybe a couple of boxes like that 11 of information that they thought that if I would listen to 12 I might learn something. 13 And, you know, I mean, you know, they told me 14 that, you know, if you continue, you know, working with 15 these people, you know, you're just going to have an 16 incredible amount of money sunk down the hole for nothing, 17 because these people are, some of them, were just con men 18 or con women. 19 And, you know, had I listened honestly, you know, 20 they told the truth about a lot of individuals that I've 21 been involved with. 22 Q Okay. Well, let's get past that for a minute. 23 They had this conversation with you, pointed out the error 24 of your ways, and had a boxful of information about these 25 folks, these rabid folks you were dealing with that you had
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 971 1 listened to. And when all was said and done, they had a 2 piece of paper there. And they said, "You stop funding 3 these people, and in exchange we will do" -- what? 4 A You know, I didn't walk away with a copy of this 5 thing. I just saw it, and I said, you know, "Look, I don't 6 see any realistic thing here." 7 Q Okay. Well, if they said they were going to 8 leave you alone, what were they going to leave you alone 9 about? What were they doing that they were going to stop 10 doing? 11 A Well, what they were -- 12 Q Or do you just not remember? 15 1/2 hours and 13 you don't remember. 14 A What they were encouraging me to do, your Honor, 15 is they were saying to me basically that, you know -- and 16 had I listened, this would have been true -- "You are going 17 to waste your life for whatever period of time you continue 18 doing this." 19 Q Well, you don't need an agreement for that. You 20 don't need something in writing for that, do you? 21 A Well, I -- 22 Q You just stop. You know: "You're wasting your 23 life. Stop. Here's some information you want to read. Go 24 home, read it, and stop your funding. See you." 25 There was a document there. Did you read it at
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 972 1 all? Did you discuss it at all? 2 A Well, you know, what I found objectionable about 3 the document -- no, we didn't discuss it. I just said, you 4 know, there's no way, because the key thing about the 5 document was that, you know, I was basically going to give 6 up my free speech rights about any Scientology issues in 7 the future. And, you know, I just wasn't prepared to do 8 that at that time. 9 Q Okay. But you can't remember what the "this for 10 that" was. 11 A You know -- you know, there wasn't any sort of 12 tit for tat in this thing. This was a pretty one-sided 13 agreement. 14 Q Okay. That's fine. 15 A "You stop doing this and, you know, life will go 16 on for both of us and we don't have to worry about each 17 other. This will be the best thing for you anyway." 18 You know, it was a really completely one-sided 19 agreement. And -- 20 Q So you just said no. 21 A That's right. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 50. So after
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 973 1 this 5 1/2-hour meeting in July of '98, your wife received 2 a letter from Michael Rinder on August 19th of 1998, as in 3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 50. Is that correct? 4 A I posted that. 5 Q Did you make this letter up, or is this an 6 accurate copy of what Mr. Rinder sent to your wife accusing 7 you of adultery? 8 A I believe that's an accurate representation of -- 9 I think it was a scanned version of what was sent. 10 Q Did it cause you any problems at home? 11 A You know, it caused some upset that this was 12 delivered in England while my wife was on vacation. 13 Q Delivered to her parents' home in England, 14 correct? 15 A No, that's not correct. That's her home in 16 England. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Well, it doesn't have that address on there. 19 There were two addresses on it. I think both copies were 20 posted. This is the one that was mailed to the house in 21 Boston. 22 Q And what documentary evidence did he include in 23 this letter that he had of your illicit relationship, as he 24 calls it, and affair with Stacy Brooks that he sent to your 25 wife?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 974 1 A I think there were some pictures. 2 Q What did the pictures depict? 3 A I don't remember. 4 Q Mr. Minton. 5 A Hey, I just -- you know, that's a complete 6 answer. I don't remember. 7 Q Let me help refresh your memory. 8 A Please. 9 Q Did some of the pictures include you and Stacy 10 Brooks in a swimming pool? 11 A Probably not. 12 Q Okay. Did the pictures include you and Stacy 13 Brooks in a compromising position? 14 A Definitely not. 15 Q Were the pictures at all embarrassing to you? 16 A You know, the letter was embarrassing, you know. 17 I don't remember the pictures, I don't remember any 18 compromising pictures, I don't remember any pictures in a 19 swimming pool. The only pictures that they could have ever 20 taken in a swimming pool were taken from about 75 or 21 80 feet away through some trees, which you -- with a 22 small -- like a Brownie-type camera, which couldn't have 23 shown anybody. There couldn't have been any faces. 24 Q How about a telephoto lens? 25 A Well, I think you're aware of the incident and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 975 1 you're aware of what happened, and there wasn't any 2 telephoto lens. 3 Q Now -- 4 A They trespassed on my property and took a 5 picture. 6 Q Was that one of those included? 7 A I don't know whether it was. In fact, I don't 8 think I've ever seen the picture. 9 Q Where are the pictures now? 10 A Where are they? 11 Q Yes, that Mr. Rinder -- 12 A Since I've never seen them, I don't know. 13 Q All right. 14 THE COURT: Give me a minute to read this, 15 would you? 16 It says in the letter, Mr. Minton: "While 17 Bob denies that this direct relationship exists, 18 however, I have documentary evidence that on July 24th 19 and 25th, 1998, Bob and Stacy are at your home in New 20 Hampshire together. Their affair is alive and well, 21 and the manipulation and deceit continues." 22 Whatever it was, was that the documentation 23 that was included? Or do you not know? 24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I mean, 25 Mr. Dandar has said there are pictures included, but I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 976 1 don't know what documentation they included. You 2 know, as I recall, there was a -- a picture which 3 later was used to -- for some posters. And these were 4 purely silhouettes of Stacy Brooks and me. They 5 weren't -- you know, there was no -- you know, no skin 6 was shown. It was just pure silhouettes, you know, 7 and we weren't in any compromising position. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q No embrace, no nothing? 10 A No embrace, no nothing to my knowledge. 11 Q Do you know if Mr. Rinder -- if your wife called 12 Mr. Rinder at his request and stated the last line of the 13 letter? 14 A Well, I'm sure she didn't. 15 Q Okay. 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY THE COURT: 18 Q Is this part of what was discussed between you 19 and Mr. Rinder when you met with him, that if you stop 20 funding the litigation that he wouldn't reveal your 21 relationship with Stacy Brooks to your wife? 22 A That wasn't discussed, your Honor. 23 Q This just fortuitously came after the 24 negotiations broke down? 25 A I don't think "fortuitous" would be the right
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 977 1 word. 2 Q Not for you, that's for sure. 3 A Or not for my wife either. 4 Q Not for your wife. But I suppose if the Church 5 were trying to get your attention, I suppose it did, didn't 6 it. I should say if Mr. Rinder were trying to get your 7 attention, this would have gotten it, wouldn't it? 8 A Well, first of all, your Honor, yes, to answer 9 your question without beating around the bush here. But, 10 you know, this was something that my wife was aware of. I 11 was living in New Hampshire at this time, as opposed to the 12 Boston address which is there. And, yes, this was not a -- 13 this was a problem. 14 Q I would think so. 15 A But it was a problem for my wife and I to work 16 out, which we have worked out. 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Mr. Rinder, to your knowledge -- 20 THE COURT: Now, this is Mr. Minton. 21 MR. DANDAR: I did it again, sorry. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder is the boss or the senior 24 of Ben Shaw -- 25 THE COURT: Are you moving this into
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 978 1 evidence? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Any objection? 4 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. It'll be received. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q To your knowledge, is Mr. Rinder the boss or the 8 senior to Mr. Shaw, Ben Shaw? 9 A Well, as I -- as I understand it, Mr. Rinder is 10 the head of the Office of Special Affairs, and I believe 11 that Mr. Shaw is the head of the Office of Special Affairs 12 at Flag Service Organization here in Florida. 13 Q Okay. 14 A But, you know, that's just what I assume. 15 Q In Mr. Rinder's letter to your wife, he talks 16 about "the people that you are helping are morally bankrupt 17 and engaged in unethical and criminal activities." Who do 18 you know that you were helping back then that was engaged 19 in criminal activities? 20 A You know, I didn't write this letter. But if you 21 want to ask me who did I know -- 22 Q Yes, you. 23 A -- that I thought might be engaged in criminal 24 activities -- 25 Q Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 979 1 A -- that were among the people that I was involved 2 with? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Well, I didn't think anybody was at the time, but 5 some of the information that was given to me made me 6 question whether some might be. 7 Q Well, was Mr. Wollersheim involved? 8 THE COURT: Counselor, please, please. 9 Let's move on. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'll move on. 11 You're right. Okay. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Mr. Minton, did you ever post on the Internet 14 that you hated Scientology? 15 A Well, I would certainly have come pretty close if 16 I didn't outright say it. So I'm not sure, but, I mean, 17 practically everything nasty that you can say about 18 Scientology, you know, I've had a shot at. 19 THE COURT: Even in your depositions you had 20 quite a few opportunities to -- well, you said some 21 pretty hateful things about -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: -- about -- especially about 24 Mr. Miscavige. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 980 1 Q Let me show you a post dated December 10th of 2 '98, Plaintiff's Exhibit 51. 3 MR. DANDAR: I gave the Court the wrong 4 copy, sorry. I gave you the clerk's copy. 5 THE BAILIFF: You have a clerk's copy in 6 your hand. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Read the first paragraph, please. 9 MR. WEINBERG: To himself? 10 MR. DANDAR: Out loud. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Are you offering this then? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q First, is this your post? 15 A I'm trying to find out. 16 Q All right. 17 A Yes, it would appear to be. 18 Q And it's encrypted, correct? 19 A No. 20 Q At one time? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. Why does it start with "PGP signed" 23 nothing? 24 A It's "PGP signed." 25 Q Okay. That's to authenticate it came from you?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 981 1 A Yes. And if we had our -- if we had this on 2 computer form and we checked it, you know, we could tell 3 whether it came from me for sure. 4 Q Just real quick, let's talk about PGP. PGP is 5 encryption software that you put on your computer so if 6 anyone would happen to have your computer unauthorized or 7 intercept your e-mail, they wouldn't be able to decipher 8 what was being written, correct? 9 A That's one of the uses of it, yes. It's 10 principally -- its principal use is for -- it's the 11 equivalent of -- I mean, a message you send by normal 12 e-mail is the equivalent of writing a postcard via U.S. 13 mail. Using encryption, it's the equivalent of putting it 14 in an envelope, sealing it, and putting a stamp on it and 15 mailing it. 16 Q And you were the one that introduced me to this 17 software, correct? 18 A I did. 19 Q And you installed it on my computers, correct? 20 A I installed a lot of things on your computers. 21 Q And why did you install encryption software on my 22 computer? 23 A To secure your communications. 24 Q With whom? 25 A With whoever.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 982 1 Q Including you? 2 A Including me. 3 Q Including anyone else that had the same type of 4 software, right? 5 A Dan Leipold, Ford Greene, whoever. 6 Q Okay. 7 A You know, I mean, this is the common way that 8 critics of the Church of Scientology would communicate, is 9 to be secure in their communications, just putting it in an 10 envelope as opposed to sending a postcard. 11 Q So in this posting of December 10th, 1998, that 12 you made to alt.religion.scientology, you state that highly 13 trained class auditors, quote, "deliberately and 14 intentionally killed Lisa McPherson without any regard 15 whatsoever to her as a human being," close quote. And 16 where did you get that information from? 17 A Well, I think that's information that we had 18 discussed with Jesse, with you -- 19 THE COURT: Who is "we"? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm sure Stacy was 21 involved in these conversations as well. 22 A You know, this was what -- this was the line, so 23 to speak, in terms of what had happened in this case. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Has your opinion changed?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 983 1 A It has. 2 Q What is your opinion today? 3 A My opinion today is that, just like you are aware 4 of, that Lisa McPherson died from a pulmonary embolism. 5 There's a dispute as to what caused that pulmonary 6 embolism. The Church, through those people who watched 7 Lisa McPherson, did everything they could to keep her 8 alive, I believe. 9 Q And when did you come to this totally 180-degree 10 change in your opinion? 11 A Well, during the course of a number of 12 discussions with Mike Rinder and/or Ben Shaw together, you 13 know, we had -- Stacy and I had a lot of questions about 14 this case. And -- 15 THE COURT: How many of these conversations 16 was Mr. Shaw involved in? 17 THE WITNESS: Over all, as opposed to just 18 on this subject, I think Mr. Shaw was in maybe three 19 meetings that we had. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q And how many meetings did you have with any 22 representative of the Church of Scientology? 23 A How many? 24 Q Yes. 25 A A lot, you know. I think at one stage I said it
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 984 1 was twelve. You know, it's probably 20 now. 2 Q Are you continuing to meet with him? 3 A Not recently. But, yes, you know, up until -- I 4 guess before this hearing started. 5 THE COURT: It was twelve before the hearing 6 started, right? 7 THE WITNESS: No. It was twelve at some 8 time, I think when I was on the stand -- you know, 9 approximately. I said approximately twelve. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q I think you said twelve when you were testifying 12 before Judge Baird on April 19th of 2002. Do you recall 13 that? 14 A I don't remember when. 15 Q Okay. So you have continued to meet with 16 representatives of the Church of Scientology, correct, 17 since April 19th? 18 A I don't know since when. I thought this was 19 April 9th that I testified in Judge Baird's case about 20 this. 21 Q That was the first time. And remember, we didn't 22 have the opportunity to cross-examine you at that hearing 23 on April 9th. 24 A Yes, that's right. 25 Q In fact, that was the first time we knew that you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 985 1 had this change in your testimony. I mean, you never -- 2 A April 9th. 3 Q -- told anyone -- you never told me nor anyone 4 associated with the Estate of Lisa McPherson prior to your 5 testimony on April 9th that you had changed your -- you 6 were going to change your testimony from your prior 7 depositions. Is that correct? 8 A No. I told you. I told you I was going down 9 here and was going to tell the truth about those checks. 10 Q When did you tell me that? 11 A I told you -- I testified about it. It was on 12 the Sunday -- I think it was -- no, not the Sunday; the 13 Saturday morning. I'm standing out on the back porch of my 14 house, you know, with the phone in the kitchen, hanging out 15 the door, and told you that. I told you that on the 29th 16 and the night of the 29th that this is what, you know, I 17 was being advised I have to do. So . . . 18 Q We'll get to that. 19 A Okay. 20 Q When is the last time you met with a 21 representative of the Church of Scientology? 22 THE COURT: I think for these inquiries you 23 can assume that when he's using the "Church of 24 Scientology," he's using the -- 25 THE WITNESS: Generically.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 986 1 THE COURT: -- the generic sense, not 2 necessarily Flag versus -- 3 THE WITNESS: Right. I took it that way. 4 THE COURT: Am I correct? 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you are, Judge. Thank 6 you. 7 A Sometime while Stacy Brooks was testifying. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q So it was after -- you continued to meet them 10 throughout the time that you were testifying before Judge 11 Baird, and you continued to meet them while Stacy Brooks 12 was testifying, knowing that you were going to be 13 testifying here with Judge Schaeffer? 14 A Well, you know, I had purposes to meet with them 15 that were appropriate, in my opinion. 16 THE COURT: The answer then is yes? 17 Remember, I need an answer. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 THE COURT: Then you can explain that. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. Could you repeat the 21 question or ask the court reporter to read it back. 22 THE COURT: Read it back, Madam Court 23 Reporter. 24 (The reporter read back as follows. 25 "Question: So it was after -- you continued
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 987 1 to meet them throughout the time that you 2 were testifying before Judge Baird, and you 3 continued to meet them while Stacy Brooks 4 was testifying, knowing that you were going 5 to be testifying here with Judge 6 Schaeffer?") 7 A Yes. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q I'm going to try to get to 2002 as quickly as I 10 can. Some more background here. Did you loan money to the 11 German government official Ursula Caberta? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q $75,000? 14 A That's correct. 15 THE COURT: Who are we talking about now? 16 MR. DANDAR: Ursula Caberta. U-r-c-u-l-a, 17 Caberta, C-a-b-e-r-t-a. 18 THE WITNESS: U-r-s-u-l-a. 19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Sorry. And -- 20 THE COURT: Who is she? 21 MR. DANDAR: She is a German government 22 official. 23 THE WITNESS: That's not entirely correct. 24 She's an official of the State of Hamburg in Germany, 25 as opposed to a federal government official.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 988 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 THE COURT: Like one of our state -- one of 4 our state's -- 5 THE WITNESS: Right. 6 THE COURT: A state representative, for 7 example? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: Not at the representative 11 level. This is a specific function she serves as an 12 anti-cult activity. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Did you talk to the representatives of the Church 16 of Scientology about her loan? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you assign to anyone who is in any way 19 connected to the Church of Scientology her loan? 20 A The answer is no. But just to clear it up for 21 you, we haven't talked about any issues other than setting 22 the record straight and one other issue that I had to deal 23 with in the last couple of weeks. 24 Q What's that? 25 A Well, I had some concerns on these Wollersheim
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 989 1 monies, and, you know, it was apparent that monies were 2 going to be paid in to the court in California. And I had 3 discussions with Mr. Howie, and Mr. Howie had some 4 discussions with one of the Scientology lawyers. I'm not 5 sure whether it was Mr. Fugate or Ms. Yingling. 6 And, you know, I expressed some concern to 7 Mr. Rinder that, you know, if this money is paid in that, 8 you know, there could appear to be some sort of quid pro 9 quo, with me getting money out of that judgment. 10 Q And what was their response? 11 A Well -- 12 THE COURT: "What's wrong with that?" 13 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, there 14 wasn't -- well, what I was talking about is I didn't 15 want anybody to think that if this happened that there 16 was a quid pro quo relative to, you know, our 17 negotiations. 18 THE COURT: Well, I would hope at the end of 19 your negotiations, whatever they are, that there's a 20 quid pro quo, whatever it is you're giving up, you're 21 getting something in return. That's usually what 22 negotiations are all about. I've yet to figure out 23 what's going on here. 24 THE WITNESS: But -- 25 THE COURT: Perhaps I will by the time this
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 990 1 is over. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor. No, that's 3 not what I mean. You know, as I said, your Honor, 4 when I went in to these meetings in New York, you 5 know, I'm looking at, you know, how much is this going 6 to cost me to get out of this. Now, you know, 7 obviously, if 700 odd thousand dollars comes back to 8 me as a result of something that Church of Scientology 9 has done in California, my concern was this could look 10 bad here in this hearing, you know, that this was 11 something that could be raised as, you know, "Hell, 12 they're paying him off to do this." 13 THE COURT: You didn't want them to look 14 bad. 15 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't want me to look 16 bad. 17 THE COURT: You didn't want you to look bad, 18 okay. 19 THE WITNESS: You know, they would look bad 20 too. But, you know, as I discussed with my counsel, 21 you know, I came to the conclusion that this wasn't a 22 problem after all. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q When did it become apparent to you that money was 25 going to be paid into the registry of the court in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 991 1 California in the Wollersheim case? 2 A Very shortly before it got paid. 3 Q And how did you know that? 4 A From a friend of Mr. Wollersheim's. 5 Q Who is that? 6 A Arnie Lerma. 7 Q How did Mr. Lerma learn that, do you know? 8 A I don't know -- well, I presume from Wollersheim. 9 They communicate closely. 10 Q Do you recall a lady by the name of Laura 11 Terepin? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you recall that she was sent in undercover to 14 either FACTNet or Ms. Brooks or Jesse Prince? 15 A That was my understanding, yes. 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I missed that 17 altogether. Who? 18 MR. DANDAR: Laura Terepin, which I believe 19 is spelled T-e-r-a-p-i-n. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Now, when is the first time that you came across 22 her? 23 A Sometime in the summer of '98, I think. 24 Q Was this after your 5 1/2-hour meeting with 25 Mr. Rinder?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 992 1 A Yes. 2 Q And where was it at? 3 A Where was what at? 4 Q Where did she -- where did she surface at? 5 A With Stacy Brooks. You know, I didn't -- I don't 6 think -- well, did you ask me when I met her for the first 7 time? 8 Q Well, let's go there. When did you meet her for 9 the first time? 10 THE COURT: Who is this lady? I don't 11 know -- this is a new name. 12 MR. DANDAR: It is. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Mr. Minton, was she, as far as you know, an 15 undercover agent for the Church of Scientology? 16 A Was she? 17 Q Yes. 18 A Yes, I had reason to believe she was later. 19 Q And when did you meet her for the first time? 20 A Well, I guess sometime in '98, but I don't know 21 for sure. It could have been '99. 22 Q And where did you meet her? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q What state? 25 A Well, I met her once in California in San
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 993 1 Francisco -- oh, I remember when I first met her. This was 2 at a Cult Information Service of New York and New Jersey 3 conference at a Hilton Hotel in Newark, New Jersey. That's 4 where I first met her. I think that was in '98. 5 Q And how did you -- how did she present herself? 6 What was her story as to who she was? 7 A She was a former member of a cult of some kind. 8 She told Stacy all about it. I don't remember what it was. 9 Q And when did you -- 10 A Came to the -- 11 Q I'm sorry. 12 A I think it might have been an evangelical 13 Christian cult -- 14 Q Okay. 15 A -- because she later said she went to Wellspring, 16 and Wellspring deals with a lot of people from evangelical 17 Christian cults. 18 Q Wellspring also deals with people who come out of 19 Scientology? 20 A Not as many as they do with the others, but yes. 21 Q Okay. And when did you discover or come to the 22 conclusion that she was working for Scientology? 23 A Well, it was sometime in the latter part of '99 24 that we hired a couple of private investigators from San 25 Francisco, who came with Dan Leipold to New Hampshire and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 994 1 met with myself, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, and Brian 2 Haney. 3 And, you know, we discussed what had been going 4 on. And actually, there was a prior meeting with these 5 private investigators in Philadelphia that Stacy Brooks and 6 I had with the man who owned the private investigation 7 firm, whose name I forget, at the time. 8 And in any case, they came -- they eventually 9 came up to New Hampshire. 10 THE COURT: Can you tell me why you hired a 11 private investigator? 12 THE WITNESS: To find out -- 13 THE COURT: This was all about this woman? 14 THE WITNESS: About this woman, yes. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: She was based in California, 17 so that's-- 18 THE COURT: I see. 19 A And they were -- there's a major law firm in San 20 Francisco, Cooley something, and I forget their full name. 21 But they're actually doing some work for me now and they 22 did some work back then to put these investigators on this 23 case. 24 And, you know, they gathered enough information 25 about this woman to make us clearly believe that she was in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 995 1 fact somebody who the Church of Scientology had used for 2 many years, first in the Cult Awareness organization based 3 in Chicago and then in FACTNet to basically get information 4 about what people were doing and provide it to their 5 contacts, you know, who reported back to Scientology. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q She was a spy for Scientology? 8 A That's -- that's the belief that we had. 9 Q Did you tell her anything about the Lisa 10 McPherson case? 11 A Not that I remember. 12 Q Okay. 13 A I had very little contact with her. 14 Q Okay. Did -- 15 A Stacy Brooks was the one who she was -- who she 16 had befriended, and she maybe called me a dozen times 17 and -- you know, a two-year period. But usually when she 18 called me she was looking for Stacy, who might be up there 19 in New Hampshire. 20 Q Have you had any conversations with Stacy Brooks 21 about what, if anything, this woman asked her about 22 concerning the Lisa McPherson case? 23 A Have I asked Stacy Brooks about that? 24 Q Yes. 25 A I don't remember whether I did or not.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 996 1 Q Or did Stacy Brooks tell you that this Laura 2 Terepin was one of the subjects that she talked about and 3 wanted information about, was the Lisa McPherson case? 4 A You know, I don't know what Stacy Brooks talked 5 about with her. 6 Q Okay. 7 THE COURT: No. He asked you whether she 8 had ever talked to you, Stacy Brooks had ever talked 9 to you, about the fact that Laura Terepin wanted 10 information from Stacy about the Lisa McPherson case. 11 Did Stacy tell you that? 12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that she ever 13 told me that. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Did you find out if Laura Terepin was her real 16 name? 17 A I think we found out that was a fake name. 18 Q What was her real name? 19 A Jolie Steckart, J-o-l-i-e S-t-e-c-k-a-r-t. 20 Q And you also found out that not only was she 21 spying on you and FACTNet, but she also spying on the Cult 22 Awareness Network? 23 A Prior to, you know, being run in on us, so to 24 speak. 25 Q All right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 997 1 THE COURT: This is a member of the Church 2 of Scientology? 3 THE WITNESS: No -- well, we don't know for 4 sure, but the belief is that she was never a member, 5 that this was the investigation. She was just a -- an 6 opportunist working for money. 7 THE COURT: Well, who was she working for? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, we thought she was 9 working for a private investigator. 10 THE COURT: Who was the private investigator 11 working for? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, we had reason to believe 13 that he was working for the Church of Scientology. Or 14 another private investigator. You know, eventually we 15 thought it led back there, but we didn't have any 16 proof of that. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Did you gather any documents to show that this 19 woman was in fact working ultimately for the Church of 20 Scientology? 21 A You mean like phone records? 22 Q Phone records, documents, whatever. 23 A Well, some phone records were examined. 24 Q And did they show links to the Church of 25 Scientology?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 998 1 A Well, they showed links to these private 2 investigators. 3 Q Who? 4 A David Lee, stroke, David Lebeau. 5 Q He's one of the most well-known private 6 investigators for the Church of Scientology, isn't he? 7 THE COURT: Who? I heard two names here. 8 David Lee, David -- two different -- 9 THE WITNESS: David Lee is an alias. David 10 Lee is an alias, we believe. 11 THE COURT: He's an alias? I mean, that's 12 an alias? 13 THE WITNESS: As opposed to an alien. No, 14 that is an alias name. 15 THE COURT: David Lee is the alias he uses, 16 but his real name is David Lebeau? 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q And it's true that David Lee or David Lebeau, 20 whatever, is a well-known private investigator for the 21 Church of Scientology? 22 A You know, I believe that we discovered that he 23 works for one of the law firms that Scientology uses. 24 THE COURT: Which one? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- we thought it was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 999 1 Moxin & Kobrin. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Do you have any reports from -- 4 A Or, I'm sorry, or Abelson. We didn't know for 5 sure. 6 Q Did you get any reports from your private 7 investigators on Laura Terepin? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you still have those? 10 A I don't think I do. 11 Q Did you turn them over to the Church of 12 Scientology? 13 A No. 14 Q Who has them? 15 A I think that would be attorney/client privilege. 16 Q Not the location. Who has them? 17 A Oh. 18 THE COURT: It's not privileged. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 THE COURT: That's a conversation. That is 21 a question: Where are these reports? 22 MR. HOWIE: I believe that's correct, your 23 Honor. 24 THE WITNESS: I believe Mr. Leipold has 25 them.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1000 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Isn't Mr. Leipold still your attorney? 3 A He's got a big retainer to work off. 4 Q So the answer is yes? 5 A So the answer is yes. 6 Q When you telephoned Mr. Wollersheim -- I mean 7 Mr. Leipold, sorry -- to get him to dismiss the Wollersheim 8 case, was he your attorney at that time during that 9 conversation? 10 A Well, he's got a conflicting role vis-a-vis 11 Wollersheim and myself. 12 Q Until you met with the representative of -- 13 A And -- I'm still going to try to finish that -- 14 Q I'm sorry. 15 A -- answer. 16 Q I'm sorry. 17 A He has represented me with respect to some things 18 within the Wollersheim case, despite his representation of 19 Wollersheim as well in the case. So it's a little bit 20 messy for him, I believe. 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY THE COURT: 23 Q Well, obviously from the letter I read, he 24 doesn't think he's your lawyer, I take it. 25 A Well, you know, I don't know what he thinks at
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1001 1 this stage. 2 Q Well, you had called and told him to withdraw an 3 affidavit, and he refused to do that. You told him to 4 withdraw Ms. Brooks' affidavit, right? 5 A Well, that was after Ms. Brooks had talked to 6 him, yes. 7 Q Right. You called him. You're his client. You 8 called him and directed him to do something, and he told 9 you no. 10 A Well, it wasn't in connection with something he 11 could do for me. I'm asking him to do me a favor because 12 she asked me, and he said no. 13 Q No. You were asking him to do something because, 14 according to this letter, this was important to whatever it 15 is that you were negotiating with the Church of 16 Scientology. Isn't that true? 17 A Well, if that's what he says in the letter, 18 that's what he said. 19 Q I'm asking you, sir. Isn't that true? 20 A Well -- 21 Q Yes or no? 22 A I'm going to tell you, Ms. Brooks said -- 23 Q Yes or no, that the calls were made because that 24 was important to some of your negotiation with the Church 25 of Scientology.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1002 1 A It was important because Ms. Brooks believed the 2 affidavit was false, in part. 3 Q Is your answer to my question yes or no, that 4 part of your negotiation with the Church of Scientology 5 that was going on there required Ms. Brooks to try to get 6 that affidavit withdrawn? 7 A Well, the -- the word "negotiation" -- 8 Q I need a yes or no, and then you can explain all 9 you want. 10 A So could you ask me -- 11 Q Was that part of your negotiation? 12 A What came out of our negotiation, your Honor, is 13 setting the record straight, including -- 14 Q Then your answer is yes, and you're explaining 15 it? Is that it? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Now go on. 18 A Including setting the record straight by Stacy 19 Brooks with regards to that affidavit. 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q What did Mr. Leipold represent you in in the 23 Wollersheim case? 24 A Concerning the UCC liens. 25 Q He filed the lien for you?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1003 1 A No. 2 Q What? 3 A He prepared -- I don't know whether you would 4 call it a pleading, but a motion to be lodged in the court 5 in California securing -- making sure that my monies were 6 secure. He provided, you know, additional, you know, lien 7 forms so that the lien could be renewed when it expired, 8 that type of thing. 9 Q Well, that doesn't present a conflict of interest 10 with Mr. Wollersheim, who asked you for this money and the 11 money helped him pursue his judgment. 12 A Well, you're the lawyer; I assume you know more 13 about conflict of interest. 14 Q Well, what's your understanding? Are you saying 15 Mr. Wollersheim did not want to protect your loan? 16 A Well, I understood very recently that he was very 17 anxious to let my lien expire before this interpleading 18 stuff finished so he could walk away from paying me back. 19 Q Did that happen? 20 A The money is still in the court. The lien hasn't 21 expired yet. 22 Q Okay. When you called Mr. Leipold to get him to 23 dismiss or withdraw the Stacy Brooks affidavit in the 24 Wollersheim case, was that a very pleasant conversation? 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was still trying to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1004 1 read over this letter from Mr. Leipold. 2 I mean, Mr. -- have you seen this letter? 3 From Mr. Leipold to Mr. Dandar? 4 THE WITNESS: I haven't, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: About conversations with Robert 6 Minton and Stacy Brooks? 7 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen it. 8 THE COURT: Do you want to read it? 9 THE WITNESS: Sure. 10 THE COURT: Take your time. I'm going to 11 take a break. It's 10:30. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 THE COURT: And you may read it during the 14 break. 15 THE WITNESS: Can I take it out of the -- 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: -- for a cigarette outside? 18 THE COURT: You sure can. I think that's 19 important, to have a smoke or two. But you can't -- 20 in other words, that's my copy. I have to have it. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. So don't fold it up. 22 THE BAILIFF: How long, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Let me make sure I didn't make 24 any notes on it. I don't think I did. 25 THE BAILIFF: How long, your Honor?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1005 1 THE COURT: Twenty -- 15, 20 minutes, 2 whenever I'm done with all the business I've got to 3 do. 4 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, I would 5 like to have an opportunity to review the letter as 6 well in case matters of privilege need to be raised. 7 THE COURT: This is in evidence, for 8 heaven's sake. 9 MR. HOWIE: I have not seen that copy, your 10 Honor. 11 THE COURT: I've got some underlining. I 12 guess I'm going to have to run it through a copier. 13 It's probably -- I'll either give it to you at this 14 break or the next break. I think if I run this 15 through a copier it'll go away. 16 THE BAILIFF: If it's highlighted, yes, your 17 Honor. 18 THE COURT: It's highlighted. The problem 19 is it's highlighted in this pink. I think pink is 20 bad. 21 (An off-the-record discussion was held.) 22 (A break was taken at 10:32 a.m. until 23 11:02 a.m.) 24 THE COURT: You may be seated. 25 I sent my secretary down to give you a copy
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1006 1 of that. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, she did. Thank you very 3 much. 4 THE COURT: I don't have mine now, but I 5 guess I don't really need it. 6 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm going to mark the 7 May 1st, 2002, letter from Mr. Leipold to me as 8 defendant's next exhibit. 9 THE COURT: Well, I think it's already 10 marked. 11 MR. DANDAR: I couldn't find it anywhere. 12 THE COURT: Well, I remember we discussed 13 it. 14 MR. DANDAR: We did, but there was an 15 objection by Mr. Hertzberg, representing the Church of 16 Scientology, that the letter may contain 17 attorney/client information and that we should wait 18 until Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton had an opportunity to 19 look at the letter. 20 THE COURT: All right. Well, Madam 21 Bailiff -- 22 THE BAILIFF: Yes. 23 THE COURT: -- go in my office, if you will. 24 Have my secretary -- I think she probably gave me the 25 letter back, and it's probably in my office somewhere.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1007 1 THE BAILIFF: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Tell her it's the one that has 3 the pink on it -- 4 THE BAILIFF: Okay. 5 THE COURT: -- and bring it in here. 6 Unless you have another copy of it. 7 MR. DANDAR: I -- 8 THE COURT: If you don't, I'll just get 9 mine. 10 MR. DANDAR: I kind of know what it says, so 11 here you go. 12 THE COURT: When she comes in with mine, 13 I'll give you this back. 14 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. All right. 15 I'll just hand the witness the first copy of 16 Defense Exhibit 52, the May 1st, 2002, letter -- which 17 you already have a copy of, so I'll take it back. Now 18 we have an extra copy. 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I have a 20 procedural matter to ask you about. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: These that come up here with 23 this on it -- 24 THE COURT: Oh, yes. 25 THE WITNESS: -- those are different than
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1008 1 the ones that I've -- 2 THE COURT: Those, Mr. Dandar, are the 3 clerk's originals. You need to give those back. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. There are some other 5 ones here too. 6 THE COURT: Any of those are the clerk's, 7 which means they're the originals -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 THE COURT: -- and sometime before you get 10 off the stand you need to go through all of those and 11 take out any that have those little white tags and 12 yellow tags. 13 Are you using white and yellow down there? 14 THE CLERK: Yes, I am. 15 THE COURT: Okay. White and yellow tags. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I usually check at the 17 end of the day, because I'm the one that's supposed to 18 go over that. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. FUGATE: And so far we've gotten them 21 all back. 22 MR. DANDAR: Plaintiff's 49 and 51 are 23 Mr. Minton's postings, which we will move into 24 evidence. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Which -- I've got to look at
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1009 1 my notes here. 2 THE COURT: Thanks. 3 THE BAILIFF: You're welcome. 4 THE COURT: Here's an extra copy. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I just -- 6 THE COURT: Here's an extra copy of P-52. 7 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 8 MR. WEINBERG: These are the ones that he 9 ID'd, right? 10 THE COURT: Yes, I believe so. Those will 11 be received. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Mr. Minton, you had a chance to look at the 15 May 1st, 2002, letter from Mr. Leipold to me? 16 A Yes, I've looked it over. 17 Q Which is Plaintiff's Exhibit 52. In the last 18 paragraph, Mr. Leipold says: "I do recall that on more 19 than one occasion both Bob and Stacy told me that they were 20 not pleased with how you were handling the case and that 21 you were not listening to them." 22 Do you recall having conversations like that with 23 Mr. Leipold? 24 A That's the last sentence? 25 Q Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1010 1 A I don't recall it exactly like that, no. 2 Q What's your recollection? 3 A Well, you know, this would have been -- I mean, 4 these conversations with Leipold would have been earlier. 5 Q Like from '97 to 2001? 6 A Not -- not back to '97, no. 7 Q Okay. 8 A I'd say probably sometime in '98, '99. 9 Q Okay. 10 A And the -- the crux of that concerned the 11 Scientology matters in the case, which is what Leipold 12 thought was important in the case. He didn't think you 13 were handling it properly. 14 Q I was handling it like a normal wrongful death 15 case instead of a Scientology-emphasized case, correct? 16 A Well, like us, he -- 17 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me. I would 18 object to that characterization by Mr. Dandar. I 19 think the pleadings will speak for themselves 20 throughout the case. 21 THE COURT: Overruled. 22 A You know, his feeling was that you were missing 23 the Scientology parts of the case because you simply didn't 24 understand it. 25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1011 1 Q And did that feeling that he had ever change, as 2 far as you know? 3 A I'm not sure. 4 Q Did you agree with him? 5 A I did. 6 Q And did you ever come to change that opinion? 7 A That you weren't -- that you were focusing on 8 Scientology aspects of the case? 9 Q (Nodded affirmatively.) 10 A Yes. 11 Q When did you come to think that I was now 12 focusing on Scientology aspects of the case? 13 A Well, when -- when David Miscavige was added as a 14 party, when Jesse and Stacy were going to these depositions 15 with you. You know, that general time frame, there was 16 obviously a clear focus on it. 17 Q And these were depositions that were -- were 18 taken of staff members of the Church of Scientology? 19 A I think -- I think so. 20 THE COURT: Staff members or caretakers? 21 MR. DANDAR: Both. 22 THE WITNESS: Both. 23 MR. DANDAR: Both. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 A I believe so. I didn't attend any of the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1012 1 depositions myself, so . . . 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Okay. And you and Stacy thought it was a good 4 idea that either she or Jesse Prince assist me in 5 depositions, taking of -- that I took of members of the 6 Church of Scientology. Is that right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And that's because Stacy told you that the 9 members of the Church of Scientology, the staff members, 10 would have a tendency to lie if they weren't asked the 11 questions in a Scientology manner. Is that right? 12 A No. What she -- what she said was that a greater 13 amount of truth could be gotten out, not -- not that there 14 was going to be any lies, but that -- you know, omissions, 15 perhaps. You know, things that might be said, you know, if 16 the right environment was set for it. 17 Q And did she go into detail of how a lawyer in a 18 deposition would be able to set the right environment for 19 deposing a member of the Church of Scientology? 20 A Yes, I think she did. 21 Q And what was that? 22 A Well, you'd have to ask her. I don't remember 23 the details, because she was the auditor and Jesse was the 24 auditor. But I know in depositions that they sat in of 25 mine that Stacy or Jesse -- I don't know whether Jesse did
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1013 1 sit in on any of my depositions, but Stacy has. 2 And she said, you know, if you watch carefully, 3 you know, Mr. Moxon, you know, he's using some techniques 4 there that are designed, you know, to get more information 5 out of you, and, you know, these -- you know, she was 6 talking about him in terms of Scientology methods. 7 Q Oh, so Mr. Moxon, according to Stacy Brooks, was 8 using Scientology methods in his depositions of questioning 9 people? 10 A She said she thought he was with me. 11 Q Did she tell you that gets the truth out of 12 people more? Or does it get people confused and say things 13 they didn't really mean? 14 A Well, she wasn't quite sure why he was doing it 15 with me because it seemingly was, you know, better 16 structured to deposing a Scientologist. 17 Q Well, did either she or you, as far as you know, 18 come to the conclusion that any of your deposition answers 19 which were lies or not truthful were caused by the way 20 Mr. Moxon asked you the question? 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't understand 22 that question. "Lies or not truthful," what are you 23 saying? 24 MR. DANDAR: Well -- 25 THE COURT: Do it again.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1014 1 MR. DANDAR: I'll do it again. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Did you or Ms. Brooks come to any conclusion, as 4 far as you know, that either you or her did not tell the 5 truth in your depositions taken by Mr. Moxon because of the 6 way he asked the questions? 7 A No. 8 Q Now, look at page 2 of Mr. Leipold's letter, 9 starting on the third paragraph, where it says, quote: "I 10 called her back immediately, and she" -- meaning Stacy 11 Brooks -- "advised me that she and Bob Minton were 12 attempting to settle with Scientology and that they could 13 not do so unless I withdrew not only her declaration, but 14 the declaration of Jesse Prince from the filing that was 15 due Tuesday," end quote. 16 A I read it, yes. 17 Q As far as you know, that's an accurate statement, 18 correct? 19 A It's not. 20 Q What's inaccurate about that? 21 A Well, just to -- generally, you know, if 22 Ms. Brooks used the term "settle," "attempting to settle," 23 that's one thing, but the correct terminology would have 24 been to set the record straight in that declaration, 25 because -- you know, and there's more to this Leipold thing
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1015 1 than is in this letter for sure in terms of my own 2 conversations with Leipold. 3 But setting the record straight in the 4 Wollersheim case was, you know, one of the preconditions. 5 And I have been involved in attempts to settle the 6 Wollersheim case before with Wollersheim and with Leipold. 7 Mr. Wollersheim is in a very awkward situation 8 because he is pledged or he has borrowed more money against 9 his judgment than the judgment. And the two times before 10 when Scientology was trying to settle with Wollersheim that 11 I was involved in it, once around the time of the FACTNet 12 settlement and once back in '98, Wollersheim was trying to 13 get the Church of Scientology to screw his creditors for 14 him by asking them to go around and buy up -- in one of the 15 settlements, he was asking them to buy up some of these 16 debts from the law firms at, you know, pennies on the 17 dollar. 18 And at the second one, he wanted some sort of 19 annuity set up by the Church of Scientology that would 20 enable him to get some sort of tax benefit which, you know, 21 Craig Beam and Dan Leipold and Stein -- it's not Craig 22 Beam, it's -- Beam is one of the Wollersheim's attorneys, 23 Stein and Leipold -- said it just couldn't be gotten and 24 that, you know, Scientology refused to be part of the 25 scheme that Wollersheim came up with.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1016 1 Q How many years ago was that? 2 A Well, as I said, these two incidents were '98 3 and -- I think '99 is the year we settled the FACTNet 4 litigation. 5 Q And to use your terms, that would screw you out 6 of your UCC lien that you had filed against the judgment? 7 A No. There wasn't any concern on my part. If 8 they're going to buy up the attorneys' debts cheap, that 9 still leaves money. See, Wollersheim's problem has been 10 that he won't settle because, number one, he won't get any 11 money -- in fact, loses money by settling. 12 Q Well -- 13 A So he was preferred -- he preferred, you know, 14 to -- I mean, this has been sort of his life's crusade, 15 this whole case, and, you know, he preferred to have this 16 sword hanging over Scientology's head than to settle 17 because there was no financial advantage for him to settle. 18 Q What was the offer made in '98? 19 A I don't know exactly what it was. I know that 20 Mr. Wollersheim portrayed the offer as substantially higher 21 than it probably was. Nobody believed what he said, 22 including Dan Leipold, who was his attorney. 23 Q Oh, so they made an offer to Wollersheim without 24 going through his -- 25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1017 1 Q -- attorney? 2 A No. Wollersheim posted a message on the Internet 3 about he rejected a $12 million offer. And, you know, 4 Leipold said, you know, that is just total B.S., you know, 5 that is not what was going on here. 6 Q Now, Mr. Minton, in the year 2002 -- 7 THE COURT: You mean Mr. Wollersheim had 8 borrowed over $8 million? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, including the tax 10 liability, yes. But, you know, in terms of the legal 11 expenses -- when I say "borrowed," the legal 12 expenses -- I mean, keep in mind this was litigated 13 over 20 years -- 21 years, something like that. So 14 the amount of legal bills that he had piled up over 15 this time, and loans that he had gotten against the 16 judgment added up to more than the judgment is worth. 17 And therefore, he was -- when he had been in 18 these settlement discussions, he was always looking 19 for some kind of way for somebody to help him, you 20 know, mess his creditors up so that he could actually 21 get more money, because he wasn't going to get any 22 money on the face of it by settling, you know, for 23 what the judgment was at those points in time, because 24 obviously there was, I think, 10 percent interest 25 accruing on the judgment.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1018 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Mr. Minton, isn't it true that in the year 2002, 3 after you started negotiating or talking with Mr. Rosen and 4 Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling for the Church of Scientology 5 and after you appeared before Judge Baird on April the 9th, 6 you telephoned Mr. Leip- -- you telephoned -- you had a 7 message sent to Mr. Wollersheim that you would personally 8 pay him $200,000, give or take, and forgive your 700,000 9 plus lien if he would cause the Wollersheim case to be 10 dismissed? 11 A That's pretty accurate. 12 Q And why were you wanting to do that? 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, who was the person? 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Who did you use to convey that message -- 16 THE COURT: No, no, no, I'm sorry. What I'm 17 trying to say is, Who was it he made this offer to? 18 Was this Wollersheim or Leipold? 19 MR. DANDAR: Wollersheim. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Who did you use to make that offer to 23 Mr. Wollersheim? 24 A Well, let me also clarify that I also discussed 25 that in detail with Dan Leipold. I discussed several
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1019 1 possible deals with Dan Leipold, including -- including 2 that one. 3 Q Okay. And were the figures that I had in my 4 question pretty accurate? 5 A Pretty accurate, yes. 6 Q Okay. And did you contact Mr. Wollersheim 7 directly? 8 A No. 9 Q Who did you use to go as a third party? 10 A Mr. Lerma. 11 Q Okay. And, of course, that was rejected, right? 12 THE COURT: Who? 13 MR. DANDAR: Arnie Lerma, L-e-r-m-a. 14 THE WITNESS: L-e-r-m-a. 15 THE COURT: What was to happen? I'm sorry, 16 I just can't -- this is just way too complicated for 17 me. He was going to give Mr. Wollersheim 200,000, 18 forgive his debt, the UCC debt, if what? If 19 Mr. Wollersheim would do what? 20 THE WITNESS: If he would settle with 21 Scientology. 22 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Are you sure it wasn't dismiss the case? 25 A Or drop the case.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1020 1 Q And if he dropped the case on those terms, that 2 would definitely screw all of the creditors that 3 Mr. Wollersheim had borrowed money from with that judgment 4 as collateral? 5 A That's what Mr. Wollersheim's been trying to do. 6 Q That would also screw the attorneys involved in 7 the case who had liens on that money, correct? 8 A It would. 9 Q And you're telling me that you had conveyed this 10 offer to Mr. Leipold? 11 A Yes. I told him, I said, you know, "Here's 12 another alternative, Dan." I said: "You don't want to 13 deal with that one. But what should I do? Talk to 14 Wollersheim directly about it?" I said, "Because 15 Wollersheim gets more money out of it that way." 16 Q And so you did talk to Wollersheim directly? 17 A No. I used that term when I talked to Leipold, 18 but I didn't go to him directly. 19 Q And, of course, Mr. Leipold didn't think that was 20 a good idea, did he? 21 A He said, "If that's what you think you need to 22 do, you need to try it." 23 Q When was this conversation? 24 A April 9th, I believe. 25 Q So that was right after your first day of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1021 1 testimony with Dr. -- Judge Baird? 2 A Yes. It was in the evening, Florida time, 3 walking around in the backyard of Jesse's house. 4 Q And how would it have been -- 5 THE COURT: This is when you called 6 Mr. Leipold? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q How would that scenario of paying Wollersheim 200 10 grand and dismissing the case and you forgiving your debt 11 to Wollersheim, quote, "set the record straight"? 12 A You're obviously not yet tracking with what I've 13 said so far about the negotiations or the meetings with 14 Scientology to lead to negotiations to settlement. 15 THE COURT: Well, just go ahead and answer 16 that question, and then you can explain if you need 17 to. 18 THE WITNESS: Ask me that -- 19 THE COURT: The deal was, as I understand 20 it, that you had given $200,000 -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: -- forgive the debt -- 23 THE WITNESS: To answer -- 24 THE COURT: -- to either settle or drop the 25 case. Now the question to you --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1022 1 THE WITNESS: It wouldn't do anything -- 2 THE COURT: Excuse me. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, your 4 Honor. 5 THE COURT: Excuse me, excuse me. This 6 was -- you made a call and said: "I'll give you 7 $200,000. I'll forgive the debt if you'll settle or 8 drop the case." 9 Mr. Dandar's question was: How is that 10 going to set the record straight? 11 THE WITNESS: It wouldn't. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Would not? 14 A No. It would -- but I'll explain it. When I 15 walked into these meetings in New York, the -- the primary 16 concern from my standpoint was how much I was going to end 17 up having to pay Scientology to get out of this mess. 18 Q The mess that -- I believe I am the cause of all 19 your mess, correct? 20 A You are a part of the mess, that's for sure. 21 Q Now, I'm the whole cause of your mess, according 22 to you. 23 A I didn't say you were the whole cause. 24 Q What percentage? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, object. He's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1023 1 just arguing with the witness. 2 A Speculation. I don't know. 3 THE COURT: Yes. If you could, just see who 4 else is part of the problem here. 5 Who else is part of the problem? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, all these cases that 7 I'm, you know, one how or another involved in. 8 THE COURT: So everything you've told us 9 about, all these $10 million that you put out there 10 that are still ongoing, these are all part of your -- 11 all these persons are part of your problem? 12 THE WITNESS: For sure. I mean, this -- 13 this case down here, obviously in terms of, you know, 14 what has gone on in it, the perjury that I've been 15 involved in in this case is the principal problem that 16 I'm facing in terms of dealing with the justice 17 system. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Mr. Minton, look at page 2 again of Mr. Leipold's 20 letter. We've looked at the first sentence of the third 21 paragraph, where the word "attempting to settle with 22 Scientology," the phrase, is used. And I want you to look 23 at the next paragraph, where it says, quote: "She 24 explained" -- "she" being Stacy Brooks -- "explained to me 25 that it was crucial that these declarations be withdrawn as
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1024 1 otherwise Scientology would not settle with Bob," close 2 quote. 3 Is that correct? 4 A It's not correct. 5 Q All right. What's wrong with that sentence? 6 A You know, I think I've tried to tell you -- you 7 know, I don't think there's going to be any roadblocks to 8 settling no matter what happens to the Wollersheim case or 9 this case. 10 Q Why is that? 11 A It's purely going to be a question of how much 12 money it's going to cost me to settle. 13 Q How's that? Explain that. 14 EXAMINATION 15 BY THE COURT: 16 Q What are you settling? I still don't know what 17 you're settling. What are you settling? 18 A With Scientology? All -- 19 Q Yes. When you go to pay them money now, for 20 what? What are you getting in return? 21 A For all the outstanding issues between us -- 22 well, you know, I mean, for example, I mean, some of the 23 things that, you know, when we went to this meeting, some 24 of the things that we were looking for, you know, we wanted 25 to get out of this litigation completely, out -- we
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1025 1 didn't -- we wanted to be able to walk away from it, we 2 wanted to be able to make sure that Jesse Prince's house 3 was sold in Clearwater, we wanted to make sure that the LMT 4 building could be sold. 5 You know, this is the type of thing we were 6 talking about -- you know, we're not looking for anything 7 from Scientology other than let's stop this litigation mess 8 we're in, we're going to get on with our lives, you know, 9 how much is it going to cost to do this? 10 Q I hate to tell you this, but this is the weirdest 11 I've ever heard in my life. You're now involved in the 12 negotiations where you're going to have to figure out at 13 some point in time after the record is set straight in two 14 cases how much you're going to have to pay them to get out 15 of this, all this. 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. So when this is all done, the record is 18 set straight in the Wollersheim case and in this case and 19 in all these other cases, then you're going to have to pay 20 them something. And what is it you're getting back? 21 A We're out of this morass of litigation that we're 22 involved in. 23 Q I don't get it. Get out. Get out. 24 A Your Honor, I mean, you know -- 25 Q Step back from this. Don't give any more money.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1026 1 Go home. Don't be bothered with it anymore. That's how 2 you get out of litigation. 3 A It's not, your Honor. It's coming down here for 4 these contempt hearings, you know, the perjury that's gone 5 on in this thing. 6 Q Oh, you just started coming down here. I've got 7 news for you. You've got more hearings than you've got any 8 idea about because of all this. But the deal is, what is 9 it that -- you're -- to get out of litigation, you stop 10 litigating. 11 A Well, your Honor, we've tried to do that. You 12 know, I've tried to stop giving money. You know, we've 13 tried to distance ourselves and the LMT from this stuff. 14 But, you know, because of everything that's gone on, you 15 know, there's no way to do it. You can't just walk away 16 from it. I mean, we haven't been able to walk away from 17 it. You know, we are too intertwined in it to just walk 18 away. 19 Q How much do they want you to pay them? 20 A You know, we haven't talked about anything like 21 that. We've just talked about the generalities of what, 22 you know, our sort of side's pictures were. 23 Q What your side's pictures were. 24 A What each side's overall picture was. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Well, go on ahead and get
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1027 1 into this whatever that was going on. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Mr. Minton, what's your understanding of what 5 happens when you fail to get this Lisa McPherson case 6 dismissed? 7 A I'm not trying to get this Lisa McPherson case 8 dismissed, Mr. Dandar. 9 Q You said it was going to cost you more. What do 10 you mean by that? 11 A Well, undoubtedly it'll cost me more. 12 Q Why? 13 A Well, if they continue to litigate, it'll cost me 14 more, that's for sure. 15 Q Litigate what? 16 A This case. 17 Q Did they tell you that they were going to add you 18 on as a party defendant to the counterclaim and you'd have 19 to go out and hire a lawyer and that was going to cost you 20 money and you've exposed yourself to a huge judgment? Is 21 that what you're talking about? 22 A No. They did say, you know -- they put on the 23 table a couple of preview copies of documents. 24 Q Let's go talk about it. I didn't want to get to 25 it yet, but I need to get to the heart of the matter
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1028 1 anyway. So -- 2 A Okay. The two preview documents were a preview 3 copy of the motion adding me on the counterclaim. 4 Q In this case. 5 A In this case. And secondly the Armstrong suit. 6 Q What about the RICO suit? 7 A There wasn't any RICO suit talked about. 8 Q They didn't show you any copy of a draft on a 9 RICO suit? 10 A No. No matter how many times you beat that dog 11 to death, the answer is still no. 12 THE COURT: I don't know if he's even asked 13 you that dog yet. The question is -- 14 MR. FUGATE: He has, your Honor. He 15 answered it. 16 THE COURT: He did? It must have been a 17 long time ago, because I didn't even know we talked 18 with this witness about what went on. I thought that 19 was Ms. Brooks. It must have been a long time ago. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Mr. Rosen, who produced this RICO chart in some 22 deposition or some case of Grady Ward that you faxed to me 23 or e-mailed me at one time -- 24 A You asked me to e-mail it to you. 25 Q Mr. Rosen didn't talk to you about this RICO
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1029 1 chart after the first meetings? 2 A I mentioned the RICO chart. 3 Q Why? 4 A Because one of the things that they had spent 5 money on was a RICO -- RICO prosecution. 6 Q They had already spent money on it? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Where? 9 A I don't know where they spent it. 10 Q Well -- 11 A You know, they told me how much as well. 12 Q How much did they spend on their RICO suit? 13 A $20,000. 14 Q And in what jurisdiction is it in? 15 A They didn't say. 16 Q And was it a criminal or a civil RICO? 17 A They didn't say, but I'm assuming that they're 18 not talking about criminal. 19 Q Why? 20 A Because it's an organization doing it, not a -- 21 not a government. 22 Q Which organization of Scientology was going to -- 23 that spent $20,000 on doing something on a RICO suit 24 against you? 25 A It wasn't mentioned. You know, I -- when they
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1030 1 mentioned they spent 20,000, I said, "Well, that's a -- 2 that's an awful lot of money for that little graphic that 3 you produced in Grady Ward's bankruptcy case." 4 Q Are you saying that -- who in Scientology in your 5 meetings told you that this little chart cost them $20,000 6 to create? 7 A Nobody. I told you I'm the one who brought up 8 the chart by saying, "That's an awful lot of money to spend 9 on that little chart that was produced in the Grady Ward 10 case." 11 Q All right. So they didn't say that they actually 12 spent 20 grand on this chart? 13 A That's right. They didn't say anything more 14 about it. 15 Q They didn't tell you that they had a RICO suit 16 being contemplated against you and others for $110 million? 17 A No such comments were ever made. 18 Q You -- 19 EXAMINATION 20 BY THE COURT: 21 Q You're going to have to tell me. I mean, I've 22 read the depositions. It comes up periodically from time 23 to time in here -- there can be no doubt about it -- that 24 various lawyers from the Church of Scientology during your 25 depositions talk about money laundering --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1031 1 A Right. 2 Q -- RICO. You bring up enterprise; they bring up 3 enterprise. RICO is mentioned. 4 A Right. 5 Q So I want to know in these conversations that you 6 had with whomever it is you had it with exactly what was 7 said about this RICO, number one, the RICO suit. 8 A Okay. The -- 9 Q Surely this was a concern of yours, Mr. Minton. 10 A It wasn't, your Honor. 11 Q Oh, it wasn't? 12 A It wasn't. You know, the RICO -- 13 Q You're telling me under oath that the fact that 14 there was a RICO chart that had been shown to a federal 15 judge in Tampa showing you, as you have described in your 16 deposition, as the spider in the middle with all these -- I 17 don't know exactly what you said, tentacles or something 18 like that -- 19 A Right. 20 Q -- going out. "Enterprise," I mean, even 21 Ms. Brooks knows what "enterprise" means. You do too. 22 A I do. 23 Q RICO, right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Are you sitting here under oath and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1032 1 telling me you had no concern about this? 2 A No, I didn't. That chart -- 3 Q You had no concern about what is mentioned 4 throughout here, about money laundering, that you were 5 bringing in money from a foreign jurisdiction into this 6 country through LMT? Are you telling me you had no concern 7 about that, Mr. Minton? 8 A Certainly not as money laundering. 9 Q Well, did you have a concern about it as far as 10 the Internal Revenue Service was concerned? 11 A I could have. 12 Q Well, did that come up during these 13 conversations? 14 A Absolutely not. 15 Q Never mentioned? 16 A Never. 17 Q Not one thing about the fact that you were 18 laundering money was mentioned, not one thing was mentioned 19 about the fact that, at least as far as the Church of 20 Scientology was concerned, you might be involved in an 21 enterprise for which you could civilly have a -- I should 22 say you could have a RICO suit brought against you civilly. 23 And nothing was brought up about the IRS, RICO, or money 24 laundering? 25 A Absolutely not.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1033 1 Q Not ever? 2 A Not a word. 3 Q Well, gee, you just told us something was brought 4 up. You just told us -- 5 A I just told you what I said about the RICO. 6 Q Let's hear about it from beginning to end. I 7 want to hear what you said and what they said. 8 A Well, you've already heard what I said. 9 Q No, let me hear it again. 10 A Okay. 11 Q How did it come up and where did it come up? 12 A It came up in this -- I guess it was April 28th, 13 29th meeting. It came up in the afternoon of April 28th -- 14 MR. DANDAR: Are you sure that's not March? 15 THE WITNESS: Oh, March, March, I'm sorry. 16 THE COURT: This is one of the meetings up 17 in New York? 18 THE WITNESS: Right, March 28th and 29th. 19 It came up on the first day, the 28th. 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Who brought it up? 23 A Mr. Rosen went through a list of the litigation 24 that I was involved with. 25 Q Is that on this chart?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1034 1 A No. No. No. I'm answering your question, or 2 the Judge's question. 3 Q Were the names that he mentioned on this chart, 4 the RICO chart? 5 A Maybe some of them were. I need to see it. 6 Q Okay (handing). 7 A Oh, can I write on this? 8 Q Well, let me make -- it's my own copy. Well, 9 yes, you can write on that. We'll mark that as an exhibit. 10 A Okay. 11 MR. DANDAR: It's already in as an exhibit. 12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I object to the 13 procedure, only because he was answering, and he 14 interrupted the answer. He was answering the question 15 that your Honor asked him. 16 THE COURT: Well, I don't care who asked the 17 question. I mean, this is sort of the heart of his 18 allegation. We've got to get to it. We've got to get 19 through this. 20 Right now the answer that I've got is 21 incredible, absolutely incredible, unbelievable, not 22 to be believed. It will not be believed. It is 23 absolutely incredible to me that he is sitting here 24 and saying that not one word was mentioned by 25 Ms. Yingling, the tax expert, about income tax, not
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1035 1 one word was mentioned about money laundering, not one 2 word was mentioned about RICO. It's -- I mean, it's 3 throughout his deposition. The subtle things were 4 raised over and over and over in his deposition. 5 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 6 THE COURT: I don't know why they wouldn't 7 be raised in these little secret meetings that were 8 going on. 9 MR. FUGATE: There was a September 15th 10 motion that was filed on the Fifth Amendment where all 11 of that is laid out and laid out in a document filed 12 by the Church and served on Mr. Minton. 13 THE COURT: The long and the short of it is, 14 Counselor, I need to know what went on in these 15 meetings. And I really need the truth, and I hope 16 that we're going to get there. 17 MR. FUGATE: Well, I agree, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: I'm sure you do, Counselor. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Okay, Mr. Minton -- 21 THE WITNESS: We're getting there, I think. 22 Q -- Mr. Rosen started to talk about cases. 23 A Yes. 24 Q And this case -- 25 A The only --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1036 1 Q Go ahead. 2 A -- the only -- but to finish answering your 3 Honor's question and your question, the only person who was 4 listed on here was -- oh, well, no, Larry Wollersheim and 5 Grady Ward, in terms of litigations that I was involved in. 6 Q Say the names again. 7 A Grady Ward and Larry Wollersheim. 8 Q Were the only -- 9 A Oh, no, Gerry Armstrong, too, I'm sorry. Those 10 were cases that I was involved in. 11 Q And that's the only three -- 12 A That were in the list that Mr. Rosen laid out. 13 Q That you were currently involved in? 14 A Correct. 15 Q What are the other names of the cases on the list 16 of Mr. Rosen? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could we just -- 18 because he's got a document on there -- 19 THE COURT: It's in evidence. 20 MR. WEINBERG: You're talking about the list 21 in the meeting? Or are you talking about the list in 22 front of you? 23 MR. DANDAR: The list of the meeting. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Compared to the list in front of you of the RICO
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1037 1 chart, what names are on the RICO chart that Mr. Rosen also 2 listed and named at this meeting on March the 28th in New 3 York City in his office? 4 THE COURT: He just said there were three 5 names. 6 MR. DANDAR: Those were the three names that 7 he was currently involved in. 8 THE WITNESS: No, no, no. These were the 9 three names that were on that list. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q What other names were on that list? 12 A The Wollersheim case, the Lisa McPherson case -- 13 well, it was referred to as "the Florida cases" -- two 14 cases in France, a case in Germany, two cases in 15 Switzerland -- I'm just trying to think from memory on 16 this. There was the Keith Henson matter. There was the 17 injunction matters down here in Florida. 18 THE COURT: I'm sorry. "Henson," did you 19 say? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 21 A There was some -- there were some other things 22 that were non-litigation related. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Such as? 25 A Such as, you know, added security costs as a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1038 1 result of this injunction thing, you know, the monies paid 2 to the Clearwater police and stuff. That's all I can 3 remember on it. 4 Q Two cases in Germany. Were those cases that you 5 filed? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you filed -- were they libel cases? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you won those? 10 A Won one. 11 Q And what was -- 12 A It's on appeal at the moment. 13 Q And what about the other one? 14 A It was also libel related. It hasn't been dealt 15 with yet. 16 Q Okay. Did you get a monetary judgment on the one 17 that you won? 18 A We didn't ask for a monetary judgment. We asked 19 for, you know, a prohibition against them repeating the 20 allegations they had made. 21 Q What were those allegations? 22 A Well, this had to do with Ursula Caberta, with 23 Nigeria. It was a variety of allegations. 24 Q And those allegations were all false, correct? 25 A Well, the Court determined that Scientology
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1039 1 shouldn't have been saying those things because the Court 2 determined that they were untrue. 3 Q The two Swiss cases, what are those? 4 THE COURT: Are you making a distinction 5 that the Court was wrong? Or, I mean, Mr. Dandar I 6 believe asked you if they were false. And your answer 7 was the Court determined they were false? 8 THE WITNESS: No, they were false. If that 9 was your question, they were false. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q And the Court agreed with me that they were 12 false -- 13 A Yes. 14 Q -- lies made by the Church of Scientology against 15 you? 16 A Well, I think -- yes, yes, that's right. 17 Q Okay. And the Church of Scientology is the one 18 who appealed that? 19 A Yes, they have appealed that one, yes. 20 Q And that was part of your discussions with 21 Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling? 22 A You know, none of these individual cases were 23 discussed. 24 Q They were names? 25 A Yes. This was just sort of a list.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1040 1 Q Okay. 2 A Mr. Jonas was making notes. 3 Q And the Swiss cases, what are they about? 4 A These both involve a man named Jean-Luc Barbier. 5 Q And was he a plaintiff or a defendant? 6 THE COURT: Do you want to try to spell that 7 for my court reporter? 8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, J-e-a-n, dash, 9 L-u-c, last name, Barbier, B-a-r-b -- wait a minute. 10 B-a-r-b-i-e-a-r, I think. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Is he the plaintiff in both cases? 13 A I think so. 14 Q And what was he suing the Church of Scientology 15 for? 16 A You know, I really don't even know. I don't 17 remember. 18 Q How much money did you give him? 19 A Twenty-five or thirty thousand. 20 Q Total? 21 A I believe so. I think he also got some 22 assistance through a French lawyer that I've worked with. 23 Q So you paid the French lawyer to help him? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And how much did you pay the French lawyer?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1041 1 A I don't know. I've paid him a fair amount of 2 money. 3 Q Is that Michel Pesenti, or something like that? 4 A You get to spell that one. 5 Q No. Is that it? 6 A Yes. 7 Q I actually got it right. You paid him the 8 $250,000? 9 A I did pay him $250,000. 10 Q Have you paid him more than that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q How much? What's the total? 13 A I don't know what the total is, but, you know, 14 maybe another 30, 40, 50 thousand, something like that. 15 Q Was that a loan to him? 16 A No. 17 Q What was it? 18 A For legal services. 19 Q For this person who was suing in Switzerland? 20 A No, for other things too. 21 Q Okay. Legal services for yourself? 22 A Some for myself, yes. 23 Q Did he represent you in the French case? 24 A He also represented Stacy Brooks and Jesse 25 Prince.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1042 1 Q In the French case? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And how many cases are you involved in in France, 4 either financing it or as a party? 5 A As far as I know, only those three. 6 Q Three in France? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And Mr. Michel Pesenti represented you, Stacy 9 Brooks, and Jesse Prince? 10 A Correct. 11 Q And is that libel suits? 12 A I think they all were. 13 Q And -- 14 A I think Jesse's was a little different, but -- 15 Q What was Jesse's? 16 A It was a little different. I don't know the 17 differences. 18 Q And are they still pending? 19 A As far as I know. 20 Q Okay. And the ones in Switzerland, are they 21 still pending? 22 A I think they're still in progress. 23 Q Okay. And has Mr. Pesenti sued you? 24 A Not to my knowledge. 25 Q Has he demanded -- have you demanded money back
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1043 1 from him? 2 A No. 3 Q Has he demanded more money from you? 4 A No. 5 Q Okay. And there's no litigation involved between 6 you and him, correct? 7 A Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q Okay. Now, before we get to the -- before we get 9 to the meetings -- darn it. I wanted to -- I didn't think 10 this was going to go as long as it's going. I just want to 11 talk about Operation Clambake money, all right? 12 A Okay. 13 Q You heard John Merrett testify yesterday about 14 Operation Clambake. Was he accurate in the way he 15 described how it was set up? 16 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, Judge. He was asked 17 a question and was interrupted, and I don't know if 18 he's ever answered it. 19 THE COURT: Who? 20 MR. FUGATE: You had asked Mr. Minton what 21 was on the list and what was discussed -- 22 THE WITNESS: What was discussed about the 23 RICO thing. 24 THE COURT: Oh, no, that's going to take -- 25 I'm sure Mr. Dandar has hours and hours planned or
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1044 1 something. I thought he was getting ready to go 2 there, but now he said he's going to do that later. 3 So we might as well . . . 4 MR. DANDAR: I just want to talk about this 5 money first. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Just in light of what you 7 said, we just want to make sure we'll get back to it. 8 MR. DANDAR: We're definitely going to get 9 there. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Was Mr. Merrett correct in the way the transfer 12 of money was set up to come through Operation Clambake? 13 A The part of it that I heard when I was here, he 14 was -- he was lying about it. 15 Q Oh, okay. Well, then why don't you tell us -- 16 first of all, what year and month did this plan take place 17 on getting money sent over by Operation Clambake? 18 A Well, it would have happened in January of 2001, 19 and on January the 30th, 2001, a -- we'll go back to the 20 fat man part of it in a minute. But on January 30th, 2001, 21 a check in the amount of -- a Union Bank of Switzerland 22 check, UBS check -- it's one of the check numbers on that 23 letter -- was issued and made payable to Andreas 24 Heldal-Lund. 25 Q In the amount of?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1045 1 A $300,000. 2 Q Okay. And was that in an account that was at the 3 bank known as UBS? 4 A It was just like the other two checks that are on 5 that list. 6 Q Okay. So do you have an account at UBS? 7 A No. 8 Q Who -- whose account are you using for these 9 checks at UBS? 10 A Privileged. 11 THE COURT: Are you going to say what this 12 privilege is? You refuse to answer on the grounds 13 that it might tend to incriminate you? 14 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, at this point we 15 would raise Fifth Amendment privilege. 16 THE COURT: But he needs to say it, 17 Counselor. That's what he's saying. He doesn't just 18 say "privilege." 19 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, Mr. -- I'm 20 asserting a privilege. 21 THE COURT: Either you answer or you "refuse 22 to answer on the grounds that it might tend to 23 incriminate me." Is that right? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1046 1 THE WITNESS: But just so you understand -- 2 THE COURT: You either assert it or you 3 don't assert it. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. But Mr. Howie had 5 instructed me, you know, just use the word 6 "privileged," and then if he stands up, then he'll go 7 ahead with it. 8 THE COURT: That isn't the way we're going 9 to do it here, Mr. Howie. 10 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, that the -- you do 14 have accounts at UBS? 15 A That's incorrect. 16 Q So someone else has an account at UBS that you 17 funneled money into to get UBS to issue these three checks? 18 A To my knowledge, that's not correct. 19 Q All right. What's correct? How did it work? 20 Let's just talk about Operation Clambake. 21 A Okay. 22 Q How did this $300,000 UBS check get created, for 23 lack of a better word? 24 A Well, I'm not there when it's getting created, so 25 I can only tell you what I think would have happened.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1047 1 Q Well, you don't know -- did the money that -- 2 THE COURT: You know, the best thing for you 3 to do, Counselor, instead of just -- let him tell it, 4 whatever it is he wants to tell you. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. 6 THE COURT: How did it work? You said it 7 was -- that your lawyer last night was lying. You sat 8 and listened to him. Well, tell us what is now the 9 truth. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. But can I just answer 11 Mr. Dandar's question and tell him how it worked and 12 then we'll get back to that? 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 THE WITNESS: Well, instructions would be 15 given by me to a financial institution or some other 16 entity -- 17 THE COURT: What entity? 18 THE WITNESS: An attorney. 19 THE COURT: I've never thought of an 20 attorney as an entity in my life, so that you might 21 misunderstand why I'm -- 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 THE COURT: -- not knowing you were speaking 24 of an attorney when you referred to an entity. 25 THE WITNESS: And instruct them to utilize
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1048 1 my funds to cause a check to be issued by UBS. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q What does that mean, to cause a check to be 4 issued? 5 A To make it happen. 6 Q Is that this attorney Jean Pierre Jacque Moude 7 who sent us a letter or sent you a letter -- well, "To Whom 8 It May Concern," I guess? Yes. It's dated -- it's not 9 dated. It's dated May 22nd, 2002. 10 A Your question, I think, would be attorney/client 11 privileged. 12 Q No, I'm just asking, is this the attorney -- 13 THE COURT: That would not be privileged. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Is this the attorney that you're speaking of who 16 could cause the check to be issued? 17 A No. 18 Q Who is it? 19 THE COURT: We're waiting. 20 A I don't know. 21 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. 22 Continue, Counselor. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Okay. This unknown lawyer, you call -- well, do 25 you call him on the phone or send him an e-mail?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1049 1 A Look, I said you could call a lawyer or a 2 financial institution. 3 Q Okay. And a financial institution -- 4 A If you want to know in this case -- 5 Q No, this -- 6 A -- this particular thing -- 7 Q Operation Clambake. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Go ahead. 10 A Okay. 11 Q I'm not going to interrupt you, I hope. 12 A I called the financial institution. 13 Q Okay. 14 THE COURT: Which financial institution? 15 THE WITNESS: I'm asserting a Fifth 16 Amendment privilege. 17 THE COURT: On the grounds that it might 18 tend to incriminate you? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to assume from 21 now on that when you say you're asserting a Fifth 22 Amendment privilege -- and you can do that -- that 23 we're very clear on this. "You're asserting a 24 privilege based on the fact that, if you were to 25 answer the question, it might tend to incriminate you.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1050 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. From now on, you may just 3 say "Fifth Amendment privilege" -- 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 THE COURT: -- and I'll know exactly what 6 you mean. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Go ahead. So you called the financial 9 institution. What do you tell them? 10 A You know, take -- take $300,000 of mine and get 11 UBS to issue a check. 12 Q And what's the relationship with this financial 13 institution and UBS? 14 A They may -- I don't know, they may be 15 correspondent banks. You know, they're in the same city. 16 I don't know. 17 Q So for this check, Operation Clambake, this 18 financial institution then wires or sends a check to UBS? 19 Which one is it? 20 A I don't know how they do it. 21 Q Okay. All right. So someone at this financial 22 institution who knows you and would take -- is this a phone 23 call? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. And you say, "Send $300,000 to UBS."
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1051 1 And they say, "Okay." Right? 2 A No. I don't say, "Send $300,000." 3 THE COURT: See, this is where we are, 4 Counselor. If you would just let him explain it -- 5 MR. DANDAR: I will. 6 Go ahead. 7 THE COURT: Whatever it is you say, he says 8 no. And then you ask another question, and he says 9 no. 10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 11 THE COURT: So, look, let him explain it, 12 and then perhaps you can ask him the questions based 13 on whatever it is he explains -- 14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 15 THE COURT: -- because I would kind of like 16 to hear it from him. 17 MR. DANDAR: Well, I kind of just thought he 18 wanted to ask another question, so it's my fault. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q So I'm not going to interrupt you. Just keep 21 going and don't stop. 22 A Where do you want me to start? 23 THE COURT: The $300,000 check -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: -- that went into your pocket
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1052 1 ultimately from LMT. Apparently it was sent through 2 some outfit called Operation Clambake. 3 THE WITNESS: Right. 4 THE COURT: Tell us from beginning to end 5 how this transaction occurred. 6 A Okay. Well, again, going back to wanting to keep 7 Scientology guessing as to where money coming into the LMT 8 was coming from and secondly to keep Stacy Brooks out of 9 the picture in terms of where any monies were coming from 10 other than what came in from me, John Merrett and I decided 11 that we would need to use someone disrelated to us, and we 12 discussed who we could trust to do this. 13 And, you know, John -- John Merrett was saying 14 that he had lots of people who worked with him when he was 15 in the state attorney's office, you know, guys who really 16 owed him favors. You know, they could go set up accounts 17 in various places, you know, that we could just transfer 18 the money into. They could -- they could then transfer it 19 to us. 20 You know, and I suggested, look, you know: Why 21 don't I -- why don't we use Andreas Heldal-Lund? He's a 22 seemingly trustworthy guy. It would make a lot more sense, 23 you know, than somebody who is involved in this whole 24 crusade would send this money rather than one of your 25 friends.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1053 1 And, you know, from the friends standpoint, it 2 was discussed that, you know, maybe these could just be 3 cash donations from his friends so that there's not a 4 record tracing them back to him. 5 So in any case, we decided that we would try to 6 do this through Operation Clambake. And John said that he 7 would go -- 8 THE COURT: "John" is? 9 THE WITNESS: John Merrett, I'm sorry. 10 A John Merrett said he would set something up so 11 that we would keep Operation Clambake from knowing who was 12 actually behind this. And this is where this whole thing 13 with the fat man came up. So John created this fictitious 14 character called the fat man as a nickname. And based on 15 what Mr. Merrett told me -- I didn't have anything to do 16 with the fat man side of it. That was something he dealt 17 with. 18 You know, John told me he was the fat man, 19 and he had communications with Andreas Heldal-Lund -- 20 THE COURT: So your lawyer told you that he 21 was the fat man? 22 THE WITNESS: That's what he had told me, 23 yes. 24 THE COURT: Which -- in other words, this 25 rather unusual episode that we heard about yesterday,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1054 1 where he went to some pay phone and called some 2 stranger, that is not what he told you, I take it. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I wasn't here 4 for his testimony. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 THE WITNESS: Ms. Brooks told me about the 7 pay phone. You know, I'm sure he would have used pay 8 phones to call Andreas Heldal-Lund. I mean, you know, 9 he probably didn't want to call in a way that could be 10 traced back to him. 11 THE COURT: Well, let me just then -- since 12 you don't know exactly what he said, I'll just ask you 13 this. He told you he was the fat man, and he made the 14 call to Mr. Lund. Is that right? 15 THE WITNESS: He told me he was the fat man. 16 And he said, "The fat man has called Heldal-Lund." 17 THE COURT: Did he indicate to you he would 18 use some stranger in this process, this unusual, most 19 interesting process? 20 THE WITNESS: He didn't tell me about that. 21 He just said it's secure, you know. He said all the 22 arrangements, you know, on this side of it with 23 Heldal-Lund are secure, you know, and Heldal-Lund will 24 never know who has actually contacted him. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Continue on.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1055 1 A So once this was set up and Operation Clambake 2 was aware that they were going to get some money, I don't 3 know whether the amount was discussed between the fat man 4 or whoever the fat man may have used and Heldal-Lund. But 5 a conversation apparently took place to tell Heldal-Lund 6 that there would be some money coming. 7 And once that was set up, you know, I spoke to a 8 financial institution and asked them to use funds of mine 9 to have a check from UBS in the amount of $300,000 issued 10 and have them dispatch that by courier or mail -- I think 11 by courier -- to Mr. Heldal-Lund's address in Norway. 12 And Mr. Heldal-Lund got the check -- well, before 13 that, he had communicated to Stacy Brooks in PGP e-mail 14 that he had been contacted by somebody -- 15 THE COURT: That's Mr. Lund? See, when you 16 say "he" -- 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 18 THE COURT: -- we're talking about John 19 Merrett, you -- 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 THE COURT: -- Mr. Lund. 22 THE WITNESS: Mr. Lund, I'm sorry. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 THE WITNESS: I'll try to keep that 25 straight, your Honor.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1056 1 THE COURT: Thanks. 2 A Mr. Lund communicated with Stacy Brooks to say 3 that he had been contacted by people who wanted to donate 4 money to the LMT and that he was expecting to get some 5 money soon. 6 A -- this check that was issued by UBS was issued 7 on January the 30th, 2001, in the amount of $300,000 and, 8 you know, dispatched to Norway. 9 Mr. Heldal-Lund was concerned once he got this 10 check and communicated some of those concerns to Stacy 11 Brooks, who was sharing this information with me, that he 12 was concerned that he might be being set up by Scientology, 13 that perhaps the check was a forged check, and, you know, 14 he would be depositing this into an account and, you know, 15 somebody would come after him for forgery or, you know, 16 possession of a stolen check or something like this. 17 So, you know, this guy was really skeptical about 18 this. And, you know, he did -- from his perspective, he 19 did the right thing of going to the Norwegian police. And 20 an -- and the Norwegian police started conducting an 21 investigation. I believe they kept the check for a while. 22 Eventually, the Norwegian police went to 23 Switzerland, where the Union Bank of Switzerland is 24 located. They communicated with the Swiss police 25 authorities. The Swiss police authorities -- police
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1057 1 authorities contacted the Swiss bank. 2 You know, I mean, I don't know what was going on 3 here other than the major steps, you know, whether there 4 were meetings, phone calls, or whatever between these 5 institutions or not, I don't know. 6 But in any case, some considerable time passed, 7 more than two months, before Mr. Heldal-Lund was 8 comfortable that the check was legitimate, that it wasn't 9 any kind of setup that he could figure out. 10 In the meantime, he had -- since that time in 11 early January, he had incorporated Operation Clambake into 12 a Norwegian company, and he deposited that check into an 13 account I believe at his bank in Norway, into the account 14 of Operation Clambake. 15 He had also checked with the tax authorities in 16 Norway to make sure that there weren't any tax implications 17 for him. And, you know, so some considerable time now, 18 more than two months later, the money was transferred to 19 the LMT. 20 THE COURT: And when was this? What month 21 was this? 22 THE WITNESS: The transfer? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: I think it was in April. 25 THE COURT: Of 2001?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1058 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Did the Norway -- 4 A End of March, beginning of April. But I think it 5 was April, because I remember it was more than two months 6 afterwards. 7 Q Did the police in Norway discover the identity of 8 the bank which had sent the $300,000 to UBS? 9 A Not to my knowledge. 10 Q Did the bank that you have pled the Fifth 11 Amendment to call you up and say, "Hey, someone's asking 12 questions about the money you sent to UBS"? 13 A Well, there were concerns all along the way at 14 UBS and at the financial institution I had called 15 originally. The normal procedure is that -- that you have 16 people pay money to people that you know and who expect it. 17 And there was some unhappiness on the part of all the 18 people along the way that that didn't happen. 19 THE COURT: Boy, am I confused. "All the 20 people along the way." Who are we talking about? 21 THE WITNESS: I mean UBS and the financial 22 institution I originally called. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Anyone else? 25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1059 1 Q The financial institution you originally called, 2 is that in Switzerland? 3 A I'm going to plead the Fifth Amendment on that. 4 Q Is this the same financial institution that you 5 called to -- that resulted in the May 2000 check to me? 6 A The 500,000 check? 7 Q Right. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you use more than one financial institution 10 for these types of transactions? 11 A I have. 12 Q And will you plead the Fifth Amendment to the 13 identity of the other ones as well? 14 A I will. 15 Q Now, isn't it true that Stacy Brooks received a 16 call from Mr. Lund telling her that he got this fat man 17 call and that they were going to -- an anonymous donation 18 was going to come to Clambake for the LMT? 19 A I don't know whether he called her or sent her a 20 PGP message. 21 Q All right. 22 A But he did communicate with her and pass that 23 information along. 24 Q And isn't it true that Stacy Brooks knew before 25 that call that John Merrett and you had come up with this
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1060 1 scenario of how to get the LMT money without the Church of 2 Scientology finding out about it? 3 A No. She didn't know. John Merrett and I 4 intentionally wanted to keep her in the dark. 5 Q Why? 6 A Because we wanted to make sure that when she went 7 into depositions and had to answer any questions about this 8 that she really didn't know what the answers were other 9 than what she was told. 10 Q Did Stacy Brooks -- first of all, do you have 11 this PGP-encrypted e-mail from Mr. Lund? 12 A I don't. 13 Q Does Stacy Brooks have it? 14 A You'd have to ask her. 15 Q Okay. Did Stacy Brooks ask you or tell you: 16 "Hey, I just got a call from Mr. Lund. There's some 17 anonymous source in Europe that's going to send us money 18 through Operation Clambake"? 19 A She did tell me about it, but she didn't know the 20 amount -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- because at that stage Mr. Lund didn't know the 23 amount. 24 Q Okay. Did you tell her -- how did you reply? 25 A I said, "I'll believe it when I see it."
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1061 1 Q So you played a game. 2 A Yes. I mean, you know, I'm trying to keep her in 3 the dark. 4 THE COURT: So you're lying to her. 5 THE WITNESS: You know, I said, "I'll 6 believe it when I see it," your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Well, come on, Mr. Minton. 8 THE WITNESS: It's a lie, it's a lie. 9 THE COURT: You lied to her throughout this 10 thing, didn't you? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Mr. Minton, are you telling us -- 14 THE COURT: When I say "this thing," I'm 15 talking about the -- 16 THE WITNESS: Check. 17 THE COURT: -- $300,000 Clambake check. 18 THE WITNESS: Correct. 19 THE COURT: You lied to her from the 20 beginning to the end about that. And that's why, when 21 she testified she didn't have to recant, it was 22 because she didn't know. True? 23 THE WITNESS: That's true. 24 THE COURT: Because you lied to her. 25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Merrett and I both lied to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1062 1 her because we didn't want her to be -- 2 THE COURT: It really isn't Mr. Merrett here 3 that I'm concerned about. It's you. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 5 THE COURT: You lied to the woman that is 6 your lover -- 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 THE COURT: -- your close -- the person that 9 you're leaving your wife to be with. 10 THE WITNESS: You know, we did this to 11 protect her. 12 THE COURT: The person that you're leaving 13 your wife to be with, you lied to, did you not? 14 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Or is it, Mr. Minton, you're saying that now 17 because you want to protect her from perjury charges? 18 A No, that's not what this is about. 19 Q Okay. So when -- 20 A We consciously set this up to keep her in the 21 dark. 22 Q Did Mr. Merrett know that this anonymous donation 23 that he was setting up was your money? 24 A He most certainly did. 25 Q So when he testified in court yesterday that when
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1063 1 the Judge told him that it was your money and that was the 2 first time he'd heard that, are you saying that Mr. Merrett 3 is lying under oath before this Judge? 4 A I am saying unequivocally that Mr. Merrett lied 5 here under oath concerning not knowing that was my money. 6 Q And why do you think -- if you know; don't guess. 7 Why would Mr. Merrett have to lie before this Judge? 8 A To protect his law license. 9 Q From what? 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY THE COURT: 12 Q What did he do wrong? 13 A Well, I mean, he knew about this all along. You 14 know, he's hearing me answer questions in depositions. 15 He -- 16 Q Does he know you're not reporting this on your 17 income tax? Is that what you're trying to say? 18 A No, your Honor. 19 Q What is it -- why is he going to lose his 20 license? A client directs him to have money transferred 21 through a corporation to a corporation. What, a lawyer 22 can't do that? 23 A No, your Honor. Look, for sure John Merrett was 24 not acting in the capacity of a lawyer in this, period. 25 That's just not it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1064 1 Q Well, what was he acting as? 2 A Well, but what I'm trying to say, you know, what 3 can John Merrett be worried about -- that's what you asked 4 me -- 5 Q Right. 6 A -- you know, John Merrett knew about this from 7 day one. He knew in terms of the source of the money. He 8 knew about the 500,000 as the source of the money. He was 9 there in Europe when that was arranged. 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q You're talking about $500,000 to the LMT? 13 A That's the second thing, yes. 14 Q That's -- 15 A He was there. 16 Q Let's go back -- 17 A John Merrett -- John Merrett was there talking 18 about paying $250,000 to Jean-Michel Pesenti and paying 19 250,000 to John Merrett through Jean-Michel Pesenti from my 20 money. John Merrett was involved in every one of those 21 things, the third one of which you haven't heard about. 22 John Merrett received sometime in April or May of 23 2001 from Jean-Michel Pesenti a $250,000 check issued by 24 Banco di Napoli. 25 Q Spell that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1065 1 A B-a-n-c-o d-i N-a-p-o-l-i. And the four of us 2 sat there at a hotel room, at the Hotel Lutece in Paris, 3 discussing how this was going to be done, because Merrett 4 wanted to make sure he got the money in some way different 5 than the other monies had come. 6 THE COURT: Merrett wanted tax-free monies 7 too? Is that it? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know what Mr. Merrett 9 wanted. 10 THE COURT: Well, you were there in the 11 room. 12 THE WITNESS: He wasn't talking about that, 13 your Honor. He just wanted it in a different way than 14 the other ways had been. So Mr. Pesenti -- so I 15 caused to be transferred to Mr. Pesenti $250,000 at 16 his bank of Crédit du Nord in Paris -- in Marseilles, 17 I'm sorry, and I caused to be issued to his account -- 18 to be transferred to his account at Banco di Napoli in 19 Roma -- Rome, $250,000 which he later transferred to 20 John Merrett by check. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q There's nothing illegal about that, Mr. Minton. 23 A I didn't say there was. I'm just saying that 24 Mr. Merrett, Mr. Pesenti knew about whose money this was. 25 That's all.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1066 1 THE COURT: I think before we take a lunch 2 break -- and I do want to take a lunch break because, 3 frankly, this is rather mind-boggling -- the question 4 that was asked is why would Mr. Merrett have to lie to 5 me about it. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, if Mr. Merrett is 7 sitting there during Stacy Brooks' depositions when 8 she's telling what she knows the case to be and 9 Mr. Merrett knows what the truth is and when he's 10 sitting there in my depositions and I'm saying it's 11 anonymous sources, you know, that's a problem. That's 12 what I think bothers John Merrett. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q So it's better for John Merrett to lie in front 15 of a circuit court judge than to watch you lie in a 16 deposition? 17 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. I object to the 18 raising of the voice. 19 THE COURT: I agree. Keep your voice down. 20 Is that what you're saying? 21 THE WITNESS: That's what I'm saying, your 22 Honor. That's what I think Mr. Merrett thinks. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q You think that Mr. Merrett -- 25 A I can tell you what Mr. Merrett said to me
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1067 1 yesterday outside. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Let's hear it. 3 A You know, on a smoke break he says, "That Judge 4 has been before the judicial review board. I don't give a 5 damn what she says." 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Anything else that Mr. Merrett said to you, 8 Mr. Minton, yesterday? 9 A You know, I just hoped -- I just hoped that we 10 didn't talk about anything, you know, because I tried not 11 to talk to him out there. But he had a few comments. 12 THE COURT: What in the world are you 13 talking about? Are you talking about me? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: That Mr. Merrett said I've been 16 before a judicial review board? 17 THE WITNESS: Judge's review -- some kind of 18 judge's review board. 19 THE COURT: Judicial Qualifications 20 Commission. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 THE COURT: And he said to you that I have 23 been before a Judicial Qualifications Commission and 24 he didn't care what I said? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, what he was saying was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1068 1 that, you know, he wasn't concerned about you giving 2 him a hard time because, you know, "Hell, she's been 3 pulled up" -- about this Bar complaint, you know, 4 "She's been pulled up in front of," you know, "a 5 judicial" -- you know, I don't know the term he said, 6 but it was like a judicial review thing for judges. 7 So -- 8 THE COURT: I wonder how he would know that. 9 It's not true, by the way. Of course, I mean -- of 10 course that's not true, and I say unequivocally that 11 is not true. 12 However -- 13 THE WITNESS: I'm only just passing on what 14 he said out there. I mean, it was a very strange 15 comment. So, you know, what Mr. Merrett's motivation 16 is, you would have to ask him. I don't know. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Mr. Minton -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: Would this be a good time for 20 a break? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. DANDAR: Just one question. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q When did you tell Stacy Brooks that the money of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1069 1 $300,000 from Operation Clambake was your money? 2 A Sometime after the LMT started winding down. 3 Q I want a month and -- 2001, right? 4 A Yes. Sometime late 2001, I told her up in New 5 Hampshire. 6 Q November, December? 7 A You know, I'm not sure exactly when it was, but 8 it was after the LMT was basically defunct. 9 Q Was it before or after Thanksgiving of 2001? 10 A I don't remember with certainty. 11 Q When did you tell her the $500,000 from the 12 anonymous source that came to the LMT was also your money? 13 A At the same time. 14 Q When did you tell her that the $500,000 check, 15 UBS check, written to me in May of 2000 was your money? 16 A The day I received it. 17 Q Who else did you tell that to? 18 A Jesse Prince. 19 Q Was that on the top of the garage across the 20 street from the LMT? 21 A That's right. 22 MR. DANDAR: And for that, let's break for 23 lunch. 24 THE COURT: Okay. It's 20 after 12:00. How 25 about we try for 1:30? Does that sound good?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1070 1 THE BAILIFF: All rise. 2 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until 1:30. 3 (The luncheon recess was taken at 4 12:16 p.m.) 5 ____________________________________ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Page 1071 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 25th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS