Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821?3320 Hillsborough (813)224?9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224?9500 1488 1 2 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 12 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 DATE: May 28, 2002, morning session. 17 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 18 St. Petersburg, Florida. 19 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 20 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 21 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 22 23 24 25
1489 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MR. LEE FUGATE and 12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 15 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 17 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor 20 New York, New York 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 21 Organization. 22 MR. BRUCE G. HOWIE PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE & WERNER, P.A. 23 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, FL 33707 24 Attorney for Mr. Minton. 25
1490 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1491 1 (The proceedings resumed at 9:04 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: I appear to have lost a little 3 notebook that I had some notes in. And I couldn't 4 find it yesterday. I looked at home and I couldn't 5 find it at home. So I'm going to try to remember 6 this off the top of my head. 7 I think the last major order that I haven't 8 told you all about is the motion to exclude. And 9 I'm denying that. So the motion to exclude vitreous 10 chemistry will be denied. 11 The motion to exclude the cockroach testimony, 12 I've already discussed. I'm denying the motion for 13 Frye hearing and I'm denying the motion to exclude 14 based on that, but I'm granting the motion to 15 exclude based on the fact that, to date, I've heard 16 no evidence that would give a predicate to allow 17 that testimony. So in essence, I'm granting the 18 request to exclude, but not on the basis that it was 19 filed. 20 MR. DANDAR: As you previously talked about. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 The motion for severe sanctions, now that I 23 know what severe sanctions are -- because I'm 24 assuming they're like these terminating sanctions. 25 As I went back and looked at your -- you moved that
1492 1 I would exclude Moxon -- Mr. Moxon -- and I would, 2 dismiss the case or strike their answers and all 3 that sort of stuff. That's denied. But I'm going 4 to grant the motion for sanctions, as I previously 5 indicated. 6 But as I said, if you'll remember, I didn't 7 know what severe sanctions were. Now I do. So I'm 8 denying that specifically. I have that in the 9 order, that the requests that you made are denied, 10 both to remove Mr. Moxon and to in essence dismiss 11 the case, strike their answers or whatever else you 12 asked for. 13 I'm denying the request to reconsider Judge 14 Quesada's order, but I'm making it clear that in the 15 event I was anything but the succeeding judge in the 16 division where Judge Quesada was, then I would have 17 reconsidered the order. What that means is as far 18 as I'm concerned, if this case goes to another 19 judge -- and God knows it might. It could go on for 20 years and years -- and it's any judge other than the 21 judge of this division, I think that judge ought to 22 reconsider it. 23 The motion to strike Jesse Prince as a witness 24 is denied as of the date of that hearing. I think I 25 told you that yesterday.
1493 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's on the bias issue. 2 THE COURT: That's on the bias issue. Whatever 3 was raised by Mr. Moxon at that time. It was -- was 4 all right there at the hearing. But it was 5 principally bias. I don't remember whether he 6 raised the fact that he was paid or not. He may 7 have. But it certainly wasn't the essence of the 8 argument. The essence of the argument was the lack 9 of bias. 10 Do I have anything else outstanding that you 11 all can think of? 12 Anyway, I'm kind of working on all those orders 13 together. And I've got them in various stages of 14 draft. Hopefully, I'll have them all to you at the 15 same time, or close. 16 I can't think of anything else except for this 17 motion that I have under consideration. If I do, 18 you need to let me know, because I want to try to 19 get these orders to you all so if any appeals or 20 certs or whatever else is done on these orders, that 21 can be done. 22 MR. DANDAR: The defense has filed several 23 motions, I believe, for summary judgment. 24 THE COURT: Oh, yeah. But I haven't taken 25 those up yet.
1494 1 MR. DANDAR: And I don't want to -- I don't 2 want to be having you look at me and say, "Where's 3 the plaintiff's memorandum of law in response," so 4 I'd like to have a date certain so I can prepare for 5 that. 6 THE COURT: You need to have your motion for 7 summary judgment as to count I filed before this 8 hearing's over. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 10 THE COURT: I look at that as as important as 11 what all this testimony is. 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 13 THE COURT: I've read -- I've had a chance to 14 read their memorandum, and I would assume that you 15 need to be filing -- I mean, I tried to think what 16 you would be filing. Frankly, I don't know what 17 you're going to be filing. If it's Mr. Prince's 18 affidavit, quite frankly, based on what I know what 19 he said in his affidavit, it doesn't seem to me as 20 if he has much to support that, other than his 21 opinion from long ago, and what he thinks. I don't 22 think that's going to get you by a summary judgment. 23 So I don't know what you've got. You better 24 file it, I'd better see it. As I said, I always 25 think -- try to think ahead. I -- I'm not familiar
1495 1 with anything in this case that I know of. I mean, 2 I've gone back, I've read the doctor's testimony. 3 The doctor's testimony seemed to me to support a 4 homicide theory, based on what I perceive to be 5 manslaughter, gross negligence, recklessness, this 6 type of thing. Nothing in there I see that would 7 support, nor could they support that, from on high, 8 directions were given to kill this woman. 9 So as I said, the only thing I can see that 10 you're -- you'll be relying on is Mr. Prince's 11 affidavit. I don't think it's good enough. So you 12 know, just for whatever that's worth, that's where I 13 think that is. But you better file it before we get 14 done. Whatever you're going to file you better get 15 it done, because that's the first matter I'm going 16 to take up, most likely. 17 So that's in the mill. But I'm not working on 18 an order on that. There's not -- we're not there 19 yet. 20 You also have a motion for summary judgment on 21 the negligence count. You know, I've read it. We 22 haven't argued that. I think you need to -- I mean, 23 that's hardly the major point of the -- of all of 24 this. But it needs to be done. 25 For a deadline, you know, I plan -- I plan
1496 1 to -- to -- you know, I've got senior judge coverage 2 for this, because this was -- you know, we will be 3 in trial here pretty soon. So I'm going to take 4 advantage of that and take these things up one after 5 the other after the other, until all the rulings 6 have been made. And as I try to do, once I know 7 what I'm going to do on something, I'll let you 8 know. 9 The -- so it is not my intention to wait when 10 this is done and schedule these for six months down 11 the road. I plan to go to the next hearing. When 12 I'm done with this one, I'll probably ask you all -- 13 I don't know whether I'm going to ask you all for 14 written closings on this or not. Just depends on 15 whether I have it in my head when it's all done or 16 not. Thus far, I can tell you, my head is very -- 17 there's a lot in my head, and I haven't sorted it 18 through. Obviously, the testimony's not done. But 19 even what I've heard -- I can't remember what 20 Ms. Brooks said, for example, on the first or second 21 day of her testimony. 22 You all are getting daily transcripts. It 23 would be nice if somebody might copy me one, because 24 I honestly can't remember. 25 So that would be nice.
1497 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. We'll provide those to 2 you. 3 THE COURT: I used to get a courtesy copy -- 4 (A discussion was held off the record.) 5 THE COURT: Is there anything else I have that 6 I should be working on? 7 MR. WEINBERG: There is the net accumulation. 8 THE COURT: And I've read that. And I've 9 already told you all I want to hear argument on 10 that. I don't -- I think Mr. Dandar kind of 11 indicated that -- just my reading of that suggests 12 you've got something that you need to show that 13 shows that you're -- that the estate, as it's 14 presently constituted, is entitled to net 15 accumulations. 16 MR. DANDAR: I will, Judge. 17 THE COURT: Okay. I know you're here and I 18 know you're tied up. The problem is, as I said, I 19 want to go -- while I have the benefit of senior 20 judge coverage, I want to take advantage of it. So 21 one day, when we finish this, whenever that might 22 be, I would most likely say, "Well, let's go to the 23 next one. What are we going to hear tomorrow?" So 24 be ready, okay? 25 Okay. Net accumulations. You're right.
1498 1 Anything else -- I'm really trying to think if 2 there's anything -- 3 You know, I had that one motion under 4 advisement, the motion for severe sanctions. And as 5 I said, I finally dragged that out and got that 6 transcript and finally got all I needed together. 7 But I can't think of anything else that I have under 8 advisement. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: I can't either. 10 THE COURT: Well, put your heads to it. 11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 12 THE COURT: If you think of anything, let me 13 know. 14 Okay. Ah, we were going to take up Mr. Howie. 15 I see that you want to be heard. 16 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, yesterday afternoon, 17 based on plaintiff's request, the court directed me 18 to contact Steve Jonas, the attorney in Boston for 19 Mr. Minton, to inquire of the list -- 20 THE COURT: Wait a second. I don't even have 21 my pad. 22 Would you go ask my secretary where my pad is? 23 Oh, here it is right here. She must have 24 brought it in. 25 THE BAILIFF: No, I brought it in.
1499 1 THE COURT: Thank you. 2 But not my little one. 3 MR. HOWIE: The list of concerns that was 4 basically the agenda for the March 28th meeting. 5 THE COURT: Oh, yes. 6 MR. HOWIE: I have contacted Mr. Jonas's office 7 and been informed that he is out for the week but 8 monitoring his voicemail. I've left a detailed 9 voicemail message requesting that he fax the list to 10 my office. I will keep the court and plaintiff and 11 all parties advised of my progress on that. 12 THE COURT: Thank you. 13 MR. HOWIE: Next, your Honor, I've been very 14 deliberate about my contacts with Mr. Minton while 15 he's been testifying. I am specifically requesting 16 permission of the court to talk to Mr. Minton on the 17 subject of withdrawing a Fifth Amendment privilege 18 as to a particular area of his testimony. That 19 necessarily involves discussing that aspect -- that 20 small aspect of his testimony. With the permission 21 of the court, at our first available break, I would 22 like to do that. 23 THE COURT: I see no problem with that. 24 Mr. Dandar? Do you have a problem with that? 25 MR. DANDAR: No problem.
1500 1 THE COURT: Does the plaintiff -- the defendant 2 have any problem with that? 3 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate? 5 MR. FUGATE: No. 6 THE COURT: That would be fine. 7 MR. HOWIE: Thank you, your Honor. Nothing 8 further. 9 THE COURT: Anything else? 10 Oh, I have two things, that -- request for 11 judicial notice -- I can't even find the one, but I 12 did take the one home on the transcript. And I know 13 there's one in this pile somewhere to take judicial 14 notice of a Martindale-Hubbell listing of 15 Ms. Yingling. So those -- as I said, I can't find 16 those, but I know that it's here. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me address those -- 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- your Honor. 20 First on the motion for judicial notice with 21 respect to this transcript, two brief points: 22 First and I think most interesting is that the 23 transcript shows, contrary to, I think, 24 representations that I think were made to your 25 Honor, that the judge in this case denied the motion
1501 1 for terminating sanctions within an hour, I think, 2 is the way it was put. In fact, he didn't deny it 3 at all, and he set it for an evidentiary hearing. 4 If your Honor would look at -- 5 THE COURT: No, I've read it. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- pages 48, 49 and 50. 7 Other than that, I'm not sure of the relevance 8 of it. If your Honor wants to consider it, we don't 9 have a particular objection. If your Honor -- I 10 don't think it's relevant. But that's what we have 11 to say about that. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Let's take them up one at a 13 time, if you're done with that. 14 Mr. Dandar? That's -- I did read this. And 15 when I got done, I thought to myself, "Well, what 16 happened?" Apparently there was to be another 17 hearing. 18 MR. DANDAR: They -- their -- their -- the 19 Church of Scientology's request to have that 20 terminating sanctions be heard first before the 21 final hearing was denied. 22 THE COURT: Was denied. Yeah. I mean, I read 23 this thing, so I know what it said. 24 MR. DANDAR: The stay was denied. So they were 25 going to do it all together at the final hearing.
1502 1 THE COURT: Right. 2 MR. DANDAR: And then the Church of Scientology 3 of California paid in the amount of the judgment, 4 and the final hearing was cancelled or postponed. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: In that transcript, however, it 7 shows that they used the Stacy Brooks affidavit 8 filed in this case to be used in the Wollersheim 9 case, which goes to relevance as to the negotiations 10 between Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and the Church of 11 Scientology, that not only just concerned this case 12 but also concerned the Wollersheim case. It also 13 supports Mr. Leipold's testimony and Mr. Leipold's 14 letter to me explaining his conversations with 15 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton on trying to get the 16 Wollersheim case dismissed. 17 Her affidavit withdrawn; and Mr. Prince's 18 affidavit/declaration withdrawn. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DANDAR: It also -- 21 THE COURT: Wait a second. Let me ask you a 22 question. 23 Is it judicial notice we take? I mean, for 24 heaven's sakes, I've taken a lot of stuff here into 25 evidence based on the fact that it might have some
1503 1 bearing on this and it seemed reliable, even though 2 it may be hearsay or otherwise. We've just accepted 3 a lot of stuff for this hearing. So I don't know if 4 I need to take judicial notice of it. I don't think 5 that's proper. 6 But I do think that it might have some value. 7 And therefore, without strenuous objection, I'll 8 receive it. Not as judicial notice, just as an -- 9 an exhibit. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 11 My only point, your Honor, was that this was 12 just mischaracterized to the court as to what 13 happened, and I just wanted to emphasize that. 14 THE COURT: Well, it -- it certainly was 15 shorter than ours. But it never occurred, 16 apparently. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: It never occurred. 18 THE COURT: That's right. I don't know if this 19 argument was much longer than the one that you and I 20 had, but we did go on to have the hearing, and then 21 this judge apparently didn't have to, so -- 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Was there a number on that one? 24 THE COURT: No. It was requested to take 25 judicial notice. So why don't you just make it your
1504 1 next exhibit? 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. You want to use one of 3 those numbers that we withdrew? 4 THE COURT: That would be all right. 5 MR. DANDAR: I don't know if the clerk wants to 6 do that. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, why don't you just go to 8 the next number? 9 THE COURT: Yeah. Go to the next number. 10 This is mine. Says "judge's copy." 11 I've got a lot of exhibits, by the way, that 12 don't have numbers on them. If I ever had to refer 13 to these, I wouldn't have a clue. 14 What number? 15 THE CLERK: 77. 16 MR. DANDAR: And I will do that, Judge. I just 17 don't have a copy available at this time. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. DANDAR: We'll make a copy. 20 MR. WEINBERG: So that's the Wollersheim 21 transcript, that's what we'll call it? 22 THE COURT: Let's see. Yeah. That's a good 23 thing to call it. 24 It says -- yes. The transcript says, Lawrence 25 Dominic Wollersheim versus Church of Scientology of
1505 1 California. That transcript will be received as 2 a -- an exhibit, Number 77. 3 Okay. The next -- I can't put my hands on, but 4 I remember looking at it -- 5 MR. DANDAR: I do have the Monique Yingling CD 6 or -- 7 THE COURT: It was -- it was the 8 Martindale-Hubbell -- 9 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. I have that on my computer. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Again, your Honor, I don't know 12 whether it's -- I've never heard of taking judicial 13 notice of a Martindale-Hubbell entry, and I guess I 14 would oppose it on that ground. 15 I do want to point out, however, for the 16 record -- and this can be inquired of at the 17 appropriate time, Ms. Yingling acts as -- as 18 corporate counsel for the Church of Scientology 19 International on a global basis, on an international 20 basis. She is not counsel, personal counsel or 21 otherwise, for Mr. Miscavige. 22 THE COURT: Okay. But she is counsel -- tell 23 me again -- for the church? 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Church of Scientology 25 International, which is the mother church.
1506 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. DANDAR: I think her husband may serve as 3 Mr. Miscavige's personal counsel. 4 THE COURT: I don't need to know about him. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't think that Mr. Dandar 6 has any information about that. 7 MR. DANDAR: I said, "I think." 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, I don't think that kind 9 of speculation, your Honor, should be made on the 10 record. 11 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Yingling -- 12 whatever that exhibit is, I won't take judicial 13 notice of it, again. But apparently it would 14 have -- you know, it's hearsay, but it's probably 15 reliable. Somebody usually pays for that to be put 16 in Martindale-Hubbell, and I wouldn't assume they'd 17 want whatever they pay for to be inaccurate, and so 18 I would assume therefore it's reliable, and will be 19 received as the next exhibit. 20 That would be Number 78. 21 Did you already give that to the clerk? 22 MR. DANDAR: I thought I did. 23 THE COURT: Probably as a request to take 24 judicial notice. 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
1507 1 THE COURT: Okay. So why don't you just give a 2 copy of this to the clerk? 3 MR. DANDAR: All right. Here we go. And 4 here's counsel's copy. 5 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I just gave a copy to 6 Mr. Dandar -- I shouldn't say I did, but -- I did 7 cause the time line to be put together, with the 8 orders that go with it, on the -- Mr. Minton and the 9 orders that went in order that we were referring to 10 some of -- those are all the orders, all of the 11 issues. And I've got it tabbed out, although I 12 think all of it is actually in the record. But 13 that's just what we said we would provide to you. 14 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 15 MR. FUGATE: I gave a copy to Mr. Dandar and I 16 gave a copy to Mr. Minton. 17 THE COURT: I looked at the -- at the orders 18 that were provided yesterday, and that gave me some 19 insight as to what was happening up in Clearwater. 20 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think -- and in this case, 21 you always preface with "I think" -- I think that is 22 the compilation of the orders in this case, the 23 contempt proceedings in this case, and the orders -- 24 operative orders that Mr. Minton, I believe, has 25 been testifying about in the breach case, all
1508 1 compiled, and then brought up to the current date, 2 which is the purpose of the time line. 3 And what I did in there is have each of the 4 orders or each of the -- the motions that it refers 5 to just tabbed in there. You can refer to it if you 6 need it, if you want -- 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. FUGATE: -- but it's there. 9 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, you might want to 10 present something on the hearing that we had on 11 April the 5th, the -- I don't remember how that was 12 being presented to me. Was that being presented to 13 me on the -- on an order to show cause filed by the 14 defendant? 15 MR. MOXON: That's correct, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: That's right. 'Cause it was not 17 sworn to. 18 MR. MOXON: Right. Remember we had an earlier 19 hearing, where it was alternative criminal or civil, 20 and the court indicated it should be heard as a 21 criminal -- 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 MR. MOXON: -- so we scheduled it for a 24 criminal OTC. 25 THE COURT: And what I learned, I can do an
1509 1 order to show cause, but if you do the order to show 2 cause, it has to be filed under oath. We did not 3 know that, either one of us, obviously. You might 4 know -- it probably would be relevant to your 5 client. It is not necessarily relevant to this 6 case. We all know what the outcome was. But for 7 your client's benefit -- I don't know if you want to 8 do something or not. But if you do, prepare an 9 order, and I'll take a look at it. 10 MR. HOWIE: Let me -- let me review that and 11 see what I need to do on it. 12 THE COURT: Okay. It frankly could be a fairly 13 simple order. "Came on to be heard on the 14 defendant's motion for order to show cause," at the 15 conclusions of which you basically in essence moved 16 for a directed verdict and it was granted. 17 MR. HOWIE: It was in fact JOA argument under 18 the rules of criminal procedure. 19 THE COURT: Right. Yes, it was. 20 And for all intents and purposes, I could enter 21 then a finding of not guilty based on the fact that 22 it was a criminal proceeding, it was considered as a 23 criminal proceeding, I treated it as a criminal 24 proceeding, and therefore, at the end of the JOA, he 25 was not guilty of indirect criminal contempt, okay?
1510 1 That's -- you want to put something together like 2 that, I'll sign it. 3 MR. HOWIE: All right. 4 THE COURT: Is that all of our business for the 5 morning? 6 Okay. All right, Mr. Minton, you want to 7 resume the stand? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 9 I'm hoping that perhaps you can finish with 10 your examination today. 11 MR. DANDAR: I would love to. 12 THE COURT: Well, don't you think you can? 13 MR. DANDAR: I hope so. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to do it this morning, 16 actually. 17 THE COURT: Well, I would -- that would make me 18 even happier. 19 MR. DANDAR: And I like it when you're happy. 20 THE COURT: Well, good. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I could just 22 address these two matters you asked me to look at 23 last night? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 THE WITNESS: These were --
1511 1 THE COURT: Two speeches. 2 THE WITNESS: -- the two speeches, one from 3 April 19th, 1998, and the other February the 12th, 4 1999. 5 THE COURT: Let me find those, 'cause I do 6 have -- I did take it home last night. Give me just 7 a second. 8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, while you're looking for 9 that, the other thing that was supposed to happen 10 today, I believe, is that the defense was supposed 11 to produce the actual lists of cases that Mr. Rosen 12 used on March 28th. 13 THE COURT: Well, let's get through this. I 14 don't know that I gave them a deadline on that. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, Mr. Rosen, I think, is 16 traveling, so we haven't been able to get that. 17 THE COURT: Yeah. I noticed Mr. Rosen said he 18 was in Florida. I suspect he must have been at the 19 beaches or something, because he wasn't here. 20 Certainly he implied to that judge out there that he 21 was here at this proceeding and knew what was going 22 on, but he must have had other plans. 23 MR. DANDAR: And he also mentioned to that 24 judge that Dan Leipold was my co-counsel. 25 THE COURT: Yes, I noticed that too. He may
1512 1 have once upon a time -- I did see one pleading once 2 upon a time where he was shown as something. 3 MR. DANDAR: No. Not as co-counsel. 4 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what it was, but 5 he was shown as something here in this proceeding. 6 I am not -- I am assuming he is not co-counsel; that 7 your co-counsel is Mr. Lirot, and that's the way 8 I'm -- I'm not, for any purpose, in this -- in this 9 hearing or this trial, considering Mr. Leipold as 10 co-counsel with Mr. Dandar. He may have entered a 11 special appearance for something at one time, but 12 he's not -- I've never seen the man; I wouldn't know 13 him if he walked in the door, and therefore don't -- 14 I don't want to hear it. 15 MR. DANDAR: He was the attorney -- 16 THE COURT: Here. 17 MR. DANDAR: He was the attorney for LMT at 18 their first deposition, and he was also a witness 19 listed by me, partially deposed or deposed by 20 Mr. Hertzberg, and then I went through him as a 21 witness. 22 THE COURT: I'll be honest, Mr. Dandar, I 23 thought in something that I read I saw his name on 24 something as co-counsel. I could be wrong. I can't 25 swear to that. I could absolutely be wrong.
1513 1 But he's not. In other words, if I did see 2 something, it was on one pleading; he's -- 3 Oh, no. Maybe it wasn't Mr. Leipold. It was 4 Mr. -- 5 MR. DANDAR: Greene. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Greene. 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: So I'm wrong. I'm sorry. I did 9 not see Mr. Leipold on anything in this case, but I 10 did see Mr. Greene listed as co-counsel in 11 something. And I'm assuming he's not co-counsel 12 either. 13 MR. DANDAR: No. He just assisted in the 14 religiosity memorandum of law. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. DANDAR: His name appears there. 17 THE COURT: Yes. I did notice that Mr. Leipold 18 was called co-counsel. And probably neither here 19 nor there, since that issue never had to be proven 20 before the judge. 21 Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What I was going to 23 say is -- 24 THE COURT: I have them right here. 25 THE WITNESS: -- those were the speeches that I
1514 1 gave at that time. And you know, those were true 2 and accurate beliefs of mine at that time, pursuant 3 to what I said. 4 THE COURT: Yeah. In particular, I noticed 5 last night that the one memorandum that more or less 6 detailed some of what you perceived to be the 7 harassment that you were suffering from the Church 8 of Scientology, based on your -- 9 THE WITNESS: That's the '98 one. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: -- and being critical -- I also 13 noticed that when I read Ms. Brooks' time line, that 14 this is somewhat in order with what her time line 15 reflects. If you want to call it a time line. I 16 think that's what she called it. 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 THE COURT: As you sit here today, are these 19 things true? 20 THE WITNESS: Uh -- 21 THE COURT: I mean, did this happen? 22 THE WITNESS: The events that I described, you 23 know, that was the way that I believed they were 24 happening at the time. 25 THE COURT: Well, this isn't really -- this
1515 1 isn't speaking of a matter of belief of whether it's 2 harassment or not. Could be whether it was in fact 3 anybody from the Church of Scientology or not. 4 But those things that you described in here -- 5 THE WITNESS: Are true events. 6 THE COURT: -- are true. 7 Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: I mean, I have discussed some of 9 those events with Mr. Rinder to find out whether 10 they in fact were -- themselves did some of these 11 things. 12 THE COURT: But those things did occur. 13 THE WITNESS: They did occur. 14 THE COURT: Okay. You just -- as I said, 15 obviously, it was not proved -- 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 THE COURT: -- but I presume on some of the 18 pickets -- I don't know if you knew any of those 19 people or not, or where they came from. But I'm not 20 assuming that this was done, as a fact, by the 21 Church of Scientology or they authorized it or 22 anything of the sort. But it was your perception 23 and -- but the events occurred. 24 THE WITNESS: That's correct. They did occur 25 as described here.
1516 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Did Mr. Rinder ever affirm, yes, indeed, the 4 Church of Scientology was responsible for those events that 5 you described in these two speeches? 6 A We didn't -- well, I think there was just events 7 in one speech there. I'm not sure that there were in both. 8 But the one thing of particular concern involved 9 following my children -- I didn't bring this up, but 10 Mr. Rinder brought it up -- that -- and he stated to me 11 that -- that there was no way that the Church of Scientology 12 was involved in that; that nobody had given any instructions 13 for that to happen. He didn't know that it had happened. 14 You know, if it was somebody else, it didn't have anything 15 to do with them. I mean, that's what he told me. 16 Q Did he tell you that anything that happened to 17 you, your wife or children, that had anything to do with the 18 Church of Scientology, he would have known about it? 19 A No. He never said that. 20 Q Well, then how can he deny that anyone followed 21 your children? 22 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I object to 23 that as argumentative. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25
1517 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q How did he explain it to you, that if he didn't 3 know about it, it wasn't from the Church of Scientology? 4 A I don't know that he explained it. He just tried 5 to assure me that that didn't happen, from -- that whoever 6 this person was, you know, in this black leather jacket that 7 jumped into the car and sped down the one-way street the 8 wrong way and turned into another -- he said that was -- 9 that was not somebody from Scientology, somebody who was 10 authorized by Scientology. You know -- I mean, he said, 11 "Look --" and I said, "Well, you know, but it happened. I 12 mean, I was there. I saw somebody, you know." His 13 explanation was that it had to be a coincidence. 14 Q This is in Boston at your townhouse? 15 A Yes. 16 Q How about the leafletting in the resort where you, 17 your wife and children went to in the Caribbean? 18 A We never discussed that. 19 Q How about the -- the person who leafletted or 20 provided pamphlets to one of your daughter's -- either a 21 neighborhood or a friend on Long Island, when she flew to 22 meet a friend for the weekend or something like that? Do 23 you recall what I'm talking about? 24 A I do, but I don't think anyone provided something 25 to my daughter.
1518 1 Q Well, what happened? I'm not getting it right, I 2 know. 3 A Well, it was -- you know, it was -- what had 4 happened is that my daughter had flown down to Long Island 5 to stay for a week, I think, with a friend of hers who -- 6 from Cambridge, Massachusetts. And the house -- you know, 7 the house down there was in her mother's name in Long 8 Island, her maiden name. And according to this woman, that 9 was the only place that she had any connection to her maiden 10 name, was this house that she had had for some years in Long 11 Island. 12 And she received -- the woman who had the house on 13 Long Island, who lived in Cambridge with her husband, you 14 know, received mail, I believe, addressed to her house in 15 Long Island, using her maiden name, which got forwarded to 16 her house in Cambridge. 17 Q And what was in the mail? What did it say? 18 A I don't remember what it was. They were fliers of 19 some sort. 20 Q Fliers about you being a bigot or something like 21 that? 22 A You know, I presume. I don't -- I don't know 23 exactly. 24 Q When was this? 25 A I think, you know, you'd have to help me, with the
1519 1 time line there. 2 Q It's in your time line, right? 3 A Yeah. I believe it's in there, yes. 4 Q Okay. And whatever it was that was sent to this 5 lady in her maiden name caused you to believe that it was 6 from the Church of Scientology. 7 A Yes. 8 Q All right. It was similar to other things that 9 they left around wherever they leafletted against you. 10 A Right. I mean, there was no question in my mind 11 that the document came from Scientology. I mean, it didn't 12 have, you know, "Church of Scientology Boston" on the 13 bottom, but some of them did. 14 But I think they stopped doing that fairly early 15 on and just made them sort of anonymous. 16 Q During your many conferences with Mr. Rinder or 17 anyone else from the Church of Scientology, did any of them 18 say to you, "Oh, yeah. That was done to you, Mr. Minton. 19 It was done by a different corporation or a different org, 20 and we didn't know they were doing that"? 21 A No. There was never any statement like that. I 22 mean, you know, basically, the -- you know, in terms of 23 anything we touched on specifically in that time line, the 24 thing that was of most concern to Mr. Rinder was this thing 25 about following the children. You know, we -- we agreed
1520 1 with each other that we had both done a lot of nasty things 2 towards each other and there were, you know, a few of those 3 incidents were talked about. 4 Q Did you follow Mr. Rinder's wife or children? 5 A Not to my knowledge. 6 Q Did you picket their home? 7 A Well, you know, I think the churches believe that 8 the Ft. Harrison was home to Scientologists. And you know, 9 this is -- and this is, you know, something they've said for 10 a long time, which is how they've justified picketing other 11 people's home. 12 Q Do staff of the Church of Scientology live in the 13 Ft. Harrison Hotel? 14 A No. But the members of the church who come and 15 stay there. 16 Q Did you ever ask Mr. Rinder how they figured out 17 that your daughter got on an airplane in Boston and flew to 18 Long Island and they knew what house she was staying at? 19 A As I said, that one was not discussed. The 20 discussion of following the children in general was 21 discussed. And you know, he assured me that that was not 22 something that they had anything to do with. 23 Q Well, would you disagree with him -- because you 24 know what happened to your daughter in Long Island and the 25 neighbor that went to your neighbor under her maiden name.
1521 1 A You know, look, there were a lot of things in that 2 time line that, you know, I have very strong suspicions that 3 they had something to do with. And you know, we haven't -- 4 discussed -- you know, we haven't gone through this time 5 line. 6 THE COURT: The truth of the matter, 7 Mr. Dandar, this stuff's in evidence. I think you 8 can just get back to your meeting. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 10 THE COURT: Whatever -- the last meeting you 11 were addressing. 12 MR. DANDAR: But I do have a question -- 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. DANDAR: I just -- I just -- 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Yesterday you said you couldn't tell us why you 17 paid another hundred thousand dollars to Mr. Armstrong to 18 pay you back the loan that you gave him. Now, what is the 19 reason why you did that? 20 A I'm going to assert my Fifth Amendment privilege. 21 Q And did you pay Mr. Armstrong, the first time, 22 with a UBS check? 23 A No. 24 Q It was a private, personal check? 25 A Yes.
1522 1 Q All right. 2 A In two parts. 3 Q Right. One went to his lawyer, one went to him? 4 A Right. 5 Q And did you give him money in the form of a check 6 to pay you back with a UBS check? 7 A I believe it was. 8 Q All right. And are you going to plead the Fifth 9 as to the identity of the financial institution that was the 10 source of those funds? 11 A Yes, I will. 12 Q All right. Okay. One more thing: Isn't it true 13 that in your deposition, you testified, I believe, in 14 September of '01 -- and I'll pull it out if you forget -- 15 that the Church of Scientology had gone to your accountant's 16 office, is that right? 17 A Yes. That -- that happened sometime in '99 or 18 2000. 19 Q Do you have any idea how the Church of Scientology 20 discovered the identity of your private accountant? 21 A Well, he -- he was -- he was the corporate 22 accountant as well, and I presume they made the connection 23 that way. Or maybe they followed me to his office. I don't 24 know. 25 Q What -- what corporation? LMT?
1523 1 A No. The -- the corporations that I had been 2 involved with prior to 1993. 3 Q And do you know if any of those public documents 4 involving public corporations -- even if they're private, 5 it's -- did they disclose the name of the accountant? 6 A He was -- he was on some public documents. I'm 7 aware of that. 8 Q As your accountant? 9 A I believe so. 10 THE COURT: Was he a CPA? 11 THE WITNESS: He was. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q And what's his name? 14 A Barry Beck. 15 Q Where is he located? 16 THE COURT: Why do we need to know that? 17 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. I just need to know 18 if the physical -- 19 THE COURT: I mean, if you want to ask him -- I 20 mean, who knows where this transcript will go? 21 Maybe Mr. Beck wouldn't care. Maybe he'll be happy 22 if he gets more business. 23 MR. DANDAR: Well, he's a CPA. I'm sure he's 24 in the Yellow Pages. 25 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
1524 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q What city and state? 3 A Boston -- 4 Q All right. 5 A -- Massachusetts. 6 Q And how did you know that they had gone to him? 7 A I believe he told me. 8 THE COURT: What was his name again? 9 THE WITNESS: Barry Beck. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q What has the Church of Scientology, in your 12 meetings with them, told you about me? 13 A Excuse me? 14 Q What has the Church of Scientology, in your 15 meetings beginning March 28th -- what have they told you 16 about me? 17 A Well, they told me that sometime in 1998 you were 18 in financial difficulties. I -- I think -- in fact, I think 19 this had to do with some motion you made, and a rule 11 20 sanction. I don't remember the details of it, but -- where 21 you had stated you were about to file bankruptcy. That's 22 one thing. 23 They told me that you had been involved in 24 purchasing properties over the last few years. I think they 25 mentioned four properties. One was a warehouse in Odessa.
1525 1 Q That 200,000-square-foot warehouse that Mr. Rosen 2 questioned me about in front of Judge Baird? 3 A They never mentioned that size. It was a 4 warehouse. They didn't say -- 5 Q Do you know that's totally false, by the way? 6 THE COURT: Well, now, we don't need testimony 7 from you. 8 MR. DANDAR: No, no -- 9 THE COURT: This is a time for you -- 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Did they prove it to you? Did they prove to you 12 that I purchased a warehouse in Odessa? 13 A No. 14 Q Okay. What else did they -- 15 A You just asked me what they told me. 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A They -- you know, they weren't trying to prove 18 anything to me. 19 Q Okay. 20 A They told me that you had purchased a vacation 21 home in North Carolina, and that you had purchased two 22 homes, one for your mother and one for you, and that there 23 was -- some of these properties -- I think that's near 24 Odessa or somewhere in that vicinity north of Tampa, I 25 believe -- and that some of these things you put into other
1526 1 family members' names and then transferred them from one 2 family member to another and -- 3 I think those are the -- 4 Well, I -- the other thing that they -- the other 5 thing that they said is that they found it extraordinary, 6 given your posture in the courtroom, especially whenever the 7 Church of Scientology did something that you considered to 8 be wild and outrageous, you know, that they considered that 9 given what you had been involved in in this case, that -- 10 that it's just beyond their ability to comprehend how you 11 could come into the courtroom and accuse them of -- you 12 know, for example, accusing Mr. Fugate of organizing a 13 break-in of your office over on Cypress Street. You know, 14 they -- they just couldn't believe that you would come into 15 court with these kind of things after what -- what I told 16 them you were involved in in this case. 17 Q What did -- I don't understand that. What did you 18 tell them that caused them to not be able to believe that I 19 thought somebody from the Church of Scientology had broke 20 into my office and removed documents? 21 A Well -- 22 THE COURT: Well, I suspect -- I suspect, 23 Counselor, what he told them about is the same thing 24 he's told us that he's told them about, which are 25 the three instances, all of which purportedly
1527 1 involve you. That's what he has told us that he has 2 told them about. I mean, if there's something 3 beyond that -- 4 THE WITNESS: That's what I'm talking about, 5 your Honor. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. So I understand. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Okay. So what else did they say about me? 9 A I think they used the term that you were a menace 10 to society. 11 Q Which society? Scientology? 12 A No. In terms of -- of an attorney behaving in the 13 manner in which I've alleged you behaved. You know, I 14 mean -- I remember, you know -- I think it was 15 Ms. Yingling -- I mean, she was just astonished. 16 Q Astonished about what? 17 A Astonished that an attorney would be behaving in a 18 manner that I've alleged you behaved. 19 And I remember Mr. Rinder saying, you know, "This 20 man is a menace to society. I can't believe he has done 21 this, and has the audacity come into this courtroom and 22 alleged every outrageous allegation that he could possibly 23 do against the Church of Scientology." Those were the basic 24 things that they said. 25 Q Did they show you what Scientology calls a DA
1528 1 pack, dead agencing -- agenting -- agenting pack? 2 THE COURT: A what? 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Dead agent pack on me. 5 A No. They never did. 6 Q Who's the one that told you I bought all this 7 property? 8 A I believe it was Mr. Rinder. 9 Q Okay. Did he show you anything? 10 A I think he showed me a picture of one of these 11 properties. I don't know which one. 12 Q Show you a picture of a warehouse? 13 A I don't know whether it was a warehouse or not. 14 Q Okay. Show you deeds? 15 A No. 16 Q Did he tell you that your money was used to buy 17 all this property? 18 A He implied that. He didn't say it. 19 Q Did that get you upset? 20 A I was already upset. 21 Q Did it get you more upset? 22 A Not really at that stage. I was pretty -- pretty 23 disappointed in you already. 24 Q This was what date? 25 A I don't remember when that was.
1529 1 Q Well, was it April the 6th or the 7th? 2 A No. It was later than that. Sometime later than 3 that. I don't know when. Some -- I think it was in April. 4 Q Okay. And just so -- before we get to that 5 meeting on -- we finished April 6th, I believe. 6 You had another meeting on April 7th, right? 7 A I don't remember whether we did on -- that was a 8 Sunday. I don't know whether we had a meeting that day or 9 not. 10 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, that was asked and 11 answered early on by Mr. Minton. 12 THE COURT: You know, the truth of the matter 13 is, I thought yesterday he said they met on the 6th 14 and the 7th, and so I was thinking the next day 15 after the 6th was the 7th. So I'm only telling you 16 that I've decided that perhaps I'm suffering from 17 Alzheimer's. I can remember phone numbers from 20 18 years ago but I couldn't tell you the address that 19 I'm moving to. So I can't remember whether he did 20 or not. I can remember yesterday -- 21 MR. FUGATE: I didn't remember yesterday. I 22 can remember from earlier -- 23 THE COURT: Well, then, you and I are both 24 suffering from Alzheimer's. Early, hopefully. 25 A I tend to -- my belief is, and I can't swear to
1530 1 this, but I believe we didn't meet that day. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Okay. 4 A And the reason, I believe, is that because 5 Mr. Jonas was pretty upset with me that day. 6 Q Why? 7 A About having gone in and told them about 8 inaccurate statements made in this case. 9 Q When you told them about what you're calling 10 inaccurate statements on April the 6th, you had no idea what 11 they were going to do with that information, did you? 12 A I didn't -- I didn't really know. 13 Q They could have went to the prosecutor, had you 14 arrested for perjury, as far as you know. Then. 15 A Well, my -- 16 Q On a contempt -- 17 A -- you know, my belief was that, you know, as they 18 had said, that we needed to tell the truth or set the record 19 straight with respect to these Florida cases; that they 20 wouldn't do that. 21 Q They also told you that you had to set the record 22 straight in the Wollersheim case, though, didn't they? 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Minton. I hadn't 24 heard that before. Did you indicate they had said 25 if you set the record straight they wouldn't do
1531 1 that? Did you have that discussion with them? 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I didn't follow that. 3 THE COURT: I thought what you just said was 4 you believed them when they said that -- 5 THE WITNESS: No. I believed that. 6 THE COURT: You believed. 7 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that they said that. 8 THE COURT: I got you. 9 Thank you for clearing that up. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q The reason you went to see Mr. Rinder on April the 12 6th is because you believed, based upon your meeting with 13 him in New York City a week before, that you had to go in 14 there and, quote, set the record straight before they would 15 even consider talking about a global settlement, correct? 16 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I think it has been. 18 MR. DANDAR: That's a predicate. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Correct? 22 THE COURT: Now, if he answers it differently, 23 we're going to have to go through it again. 24 A Yeah. That's correct. 25 MR. FUGATE: I was going to say --
1532 1 A That's correct. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 A That was my belief. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q And in reference to a global settlement, no one 6 even talked about the terms of that yet, is that right? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q So you had no idea if they were going to just let 9 you walk away if you got the McPherson case dismissed, or 10 they were going to demand $35 million from you, for all the 11 money you cost them. 12 A Well, you know, just -- just to clarify what you 13 said about getting the McPherson case dismissed, that -- 14 that was not what they asked. They asked to tell the truth 15 and to set the record straight about the Florida cases. 16 Mr. Rinder in New York had said that he believed, by setting 17 the record straight, that the case would get dismissed. 18 Q All right. And we've already gone through that. 19 I'm not going to go back through what your attorney said. 20 A Okay. Well, you just characterized it differently 21 than what I previously testified to and I just wanted to 22 correct that impression. 23 Q Okay. Now, on -- did you meet with anyone from 24 the Church of Scientology before your deposition on 25 April 8th?
1533 1 A I met with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling on the 6th. 2 Q Well, I'm sorry. From the 6th to the 7th, before 3 the commencement of your deposition, did you meet with 4 anyone from the Church of Scientology? 5 A Assuming that I'm correct that there wasn't a 6 meeting on the 7th, we did not. 7 Q Did you receive any paperwork from the Church of 8 Scientology during that time? 9 A No. Not -- not -- not until after the hearing. 10 Q Did you -- 11 A On the -- 12 Q -- talk to anybody over the phone or during that 13 time? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Jonas came in on Sunday the 7th, 16 right? 17 A I think he came in on Monday morning. 18 Q Okay. When did he express to you that he was 19 upset with you because you met with Mr. Rinder without him 20 knowing about it? 21 A On the phone. Either that Saturday night or 22 Sunday. 23 Q Okay. 24 A If -- in -- I'm just trying to think on that 25 Sunday.
1534 1 Yeah. In fact -- 2 Well, if I could just get out my little calendar 3 because -- 4 Q Sure. 5 A -- I've got a couple of notes -- 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: That's all right. 8 THE WITNESS: My calendar is in this bag that 9 Ms. Brooks has. 10 THE COURT: Sure. You can go get it. 11 THE WITNESS: Can I go get it? 12 THE COURT: Yes, indeed. 13 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: That's all right. 15 A The -- yeah. The Sunday was the -- just to -- 16 Wait a minute. 17 No, no. That's -- it's the next week I'm thinking 18 about. 19 According to this -- 20 And I've got to tell you that this is not a 21 contemporaneous calendar. I purchased this -- I've still 22 got the receipt here -- on the 15th of May. And I wanted to 23 make note of some of these things, so when this thing came 24 up, that I could refer to it. 25 I don't show that I had a meeting on that Sunday.
1535 1 THE COURT: When you purchased this, did you 2 then go back and try to reconstruct when you had 3 met -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 THE COURT: -- and those types of things? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Did you have an old calendar? 9 A I didn't. This -- I don't normally use a 10 calendar. But just to get these -- some of these -- 11 Q Okay. 12 A -- dates down -- 13 Q All right. 14 A -- I did this. 15 Q So the only person you talked to, outside of 16 Ms. Brooks, I would assume, is this Mr. Jonas, between the 17 April 6th end of meeting to the beginning of your deposition 18 on April 8th. Would that be correct? 19 A No. I'm sure I spoke with Mr. Howie as well. 20 Q I'm sorry. Mr. Howie. Okay. 21 And was Mr. Jonas and Mr. Howie at your deposition 22 on April 8th? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. And -- 25 THE COURT: Can I ask you a question?
1536 1 THE WITNESS: Sure. 2 THE COURT: There's not a thing wrong with 3 having two lawyers or six lawyers or however many 4 lawyers you want. Was there some reason why you 5 had -- when you had Mr. Howie here in Florida, in 6 St. Petersburg or Clearwater representing you, that 7 Mr. Jonas also -- you wanted Mr. Jonas here as well? 8 Is there -- 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 THE COURT: -- some particular reason? 11 THE WITNESS: There was, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: Having discussed this with 14 Mr. Howie on a number of occasions, he wasn't as 15 familiar with the -- the other cases; for example, 16 the European stuff or the Wollersheim thing, for 17 that matter. And -- you know, so he didn't have -- 18 Mr. Howie explained that his perspective was more 19 limited to the things he -- 20 THE COURT: You got to be careful talking about 21 what he told you about, 'cause -- 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 THE COURT: -- you've preserved the 24 attorney-client privilege. 25 But in general, Mr. Jonas had knowledge of
1537 1 certain litigation that you thought might be 2 involved, might be discussed, and Mr. Jonas knew 3 that; Mr. Howie did not. 4 THE WITNESS: That's right. 5 THE COURT: And that's that litigation against 6 the church that you indicated the other day, 7 something in France; something in Germany, was it? 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 THE COURT: And something -- 10 THE WITNESS: The Wollersheim matter in 11 California. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. That's enough. 13 THE WITNESS: And generally he's been, you 14 know, involved -- 15 THE COURT: He's been your lawyer for a long 16 time? 17 THE WITNESS: Historically -- well, 18 historically relative to this, you know, when I 19 first -- you know, he'd never been involved in any 20 litigation matters. But back in '98, when I was 21 first deposed in this case, you know, that's when I, 22 you know, started telling him what had been going on 23 and what my involvement in this whole thing was, and 24 you know, asked for his help. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Sorry. I just --
1538 1 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q And you mentioned Wollersheim. Just a real quick 4 question. Wollersheim was part of these discussions that 5 you were having with the Church of Scientology in addition 6 to McPherson and all the other cases, right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you personally had nothing to, quote, set the 9 record straight, close quote, in the Wollersheim case, 10 right? 11 A That's right. I think it was just Stacy Brooks. 12 Q Stacy Brooks just tried to get her declarations 13 withdrawn, right? 14 A I think one declaration. 15 Q And you tried to get the case dismissed. 16 A Well, I discussed a number of possibilities with 17 Mr. Leipold, and indirectly with Mr. Wollersheim. 18 Q And that was a precondition for your having any 19 chance to have a global settlement with Scientology, wasn't 20 it? 21 A No, it wasn't. 22 Q So if the Wollersheim case did not get dismissed, 23 it's your understanding you can still have a global 24 settlement with Scientology? 25 A Absolutely.
1539 1 Q And if you don't get this case dismissed, what 2 happens? 3 A There's still the possibility of a global 4 settlement. It's not going to change the possibility of 5 doing that. 6 Q Have anything in writing? 7 A No. There's -- you know, this is a good-faith 8 belief. You know, my good-faith belief -- and I've already 9 testified about this, you know, relative to Wollersheim, you 10 know -- that, you know, it would perhaps cost me more money. 11 Q You've mentioned at the beginning of today's 12 testimony that those two speeches you gave that are marked 13 as -- now in exhibits -- you believed what you said at that 14 time. Does that mean you don't believe what you said then, 15 now? 16 A You know, I -- I -- I now have different feelings 17 about a number of issues related to -- to my involvement in 18 this and towards the Church of Scientology. 19 Q Is that one of the preconditions, for you to 20 announce that you've changed your position on the Church of 21 Scientology, for you to go forward and discuss a global 22 settlement? 23 A I told you there's only one precondition, and 24 that's not it. 25 Q Okay.
1540 1 A I mean -- 2 Q Did you -- 3 A We still have -- we still have our Web site up. 4 Q Did you check on that, by the way, that Web site? 5 Were all your declarations and Ms. Brooks' were withdrawn, 6 except the one Mr. Rinder prepared? 7 A No, I didn't. I didn't check anything. 8 Ms. Brooks talked to Mr. Bunker to get him down here to work 9 with Judge Keane, I believe, on the videos. 10 THE COURT: Who? 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bunker. 12 THE COURT: No. To work with whom? 13 THE WITNESS: Judge Keane. 14 MR. DANDAR: Judge Keane. 15 THE COURT: Oh, Judge Keane. 16 I don't know if he'll be pleased or not 17 pleased. 18 THE WITNESS: Is he not a judge? 19 THE COURT: No, he's not. He's a lawyer. But 20 a richer lawyer, I might add. Apparently he got a 21 $1.9 million verdict that he was waiting on. 22 MR. DANDAR: That's a nice wait. 23 MR. FUGATE: And he picked up the film. 24 THE COURT: Yeah. And he took it out on his 25 shoulder. I said, "Look --" he said, "Do you want
1541 1 me to take it now?" And I said, "To tell you the 2 truth, I would like for you to have it." So he was 3 waiting. 4 THE WITNESS: I was confused. I was thinking 5 Judge Beach and I said Judge Keane. 6 THE COURT: That's all right. As I said, I 7 don't know if he'll look at that as a compliment or 8 not. Most likely not. Not with that big verdict. 9 But anyway -- 10 (A discussion was held off the record.) 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Mr. Minton, did you discuss anything at all with 13 Mr. Rosen or Mr. Pope before your deposition of April 8th? 14 A With Mr. Pope or Mr. Rosen? I'm trying to -- 15 I believe that Mr. Howie and Mr. Jonas talked with 16 them -- not with them, but with Mr. Rosen. 17 Q Do you know if your attorneys or you had any 18 heads-up as to the questions that were going to be asked of 19 you on April 8th? 20 A No. 21 Q You have any idea why your alleged perjury was not 22 even questioned about during the April 8th deposition? 23 A Do I have what? 24 Q Do you have any idea why Mr. Rosen did not ask you 25 one question --
1542 1 A Yeah. 2 Q -- about your confessions that you made to 3 Mr. Rinder on April 6th? 4 A Well, I was surprised that they didn't. I -- I 5 don't know why they didn't. 6 Q You had no heads-up that they weren't going to ask 7 that. 8 A No. 9 Q Now, what happened after the deposition of 10 April 8th? Who did you meet with? 11 A Nobody. We left. And you know, we talked a 12 little bit with Mr. Howie outside. And Mr. Jonas was 13 staying at the same hotel that Stacy Brooks and I were 14 staying at, and we went back to the hotel, and the three of 15 us had dinner. 16 Q Any more contact on April 8th from the Church of 17 Scientology? 18 A Not that I recall. 19 Q Okay. What about April 9th, before the hearing 20 started? 21 A I believe that -- I think that hearing started in 22 the afternoon. 23 Q No. It started in the morning. 24 A Okay. Well, sometime Mr. Jonas and perhaps 25 Mr. Howie and Mr. Rosen talked.
1543 1 Q Before the hearing? 2 A I believe so, yes. 3 Q Did you have any idea whatsoever about the 4 questions that Mr. Rosen was going to ask you at the hearing 5 on April the 9th? 6 A I never -- I'd never seen or heard the questions 7 before. And I was sort of surprised that they had, you 8 know, deposition transcripts and things of that nature as 9 part of the questions. 10 Q Why is that? 11 A Well, it was, you know, laid out -- the questions 12 were laid out very clearly, you know, based on what I had 13 told them and what the depositions said. 14 Q After that -- 15 A So I mean, that was again one of these things that 16 some of the people that I believe you have been involved 17 with have stated on the Internet, that that was scripted 18 testimony. And none of those things were ever discussed in 19 advance. 20 Q What happened after the hearing on April 9th? Did 21 you meet with anyone from the Church of Scientology? 22 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, why do you -- why do 23 you persist in going to those sites and reading 24 stuff, that must be things that you don't like to 25 read? Why don't you just not go there? What is the
1544 1 purpose -- 2 THE WITNESS: Well -- 3 THE COURT: -- of that? 4 THE WITNESS: -- I can't tell you how many 5 other people have advised me that way too, your 6 Honor. It's a bad habit that I haven't broken yet. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: But it's definitely -- 9 THE COURT: Well, you can rest assured that, 10 probably until this matter is over and beyond, based 11 on what I have read in all of these things, that 12 you're not going to see much good about yourself on 13 those sites. Just as you wrote some pretty hateful 14 things, my guess is they're going to write some 15 pretty hateful things about you. So -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: -- I'm no psychologist, but I don't 18 like to beat myself up. And sometimes I'll read 19 some editorial, and then I'll not read it again 20 because, you know, I don't like to -- I don't like 21 to see things about myself that are painful. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: And sometimes untrue. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, well -- 25 THE COURT: Right?
1545 1 So just for whatever it's worth, you know, I 2 just don't know why you'd want to. You keep 3 remarking in court about the things that are on that 4 Web site. You've done it several times, so 5 obviously, it bothers you. It's things that are 6 sticking in your mind. Doesn't seem like a good 7 idea to me. 8 But go ahead. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q How many people -- 11 MR. DANDAR: Since you brought it up -- 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q How many people on the ARS say bad things about 14 you? 15 THE COURT: How many write on the Web site? I 16 mean, I don't know. Does anybody say anything good? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's a bit of a puzzle as 20 to how many people actually are involved in this. 21 It is the largest -- it has been at times -- I don't 22 know whether it is this very day, but there's weekly 23 ratings of how -- how -- in terms of the volume of 24 traffic on a newsgroup, and alt.religion.scientology 25 has at many times been the most-read newsgroup on
1546 1 the Internet. 2 THE COURT: It has been? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Wow. 5 THE WITNESS: And you know, some people -- you 6 know, it's a very imprecise science, I think, but 7 some people have estimated as many as 20,000 people 8 actually view it. But there's probably not more 9 than a hundred who actually post to it on a regular 10 basis. The others are what are called lurkers. 11 They just lurk to sort of see what's going on and 12 don't participate in the conversations. 13 And out of that maybe hundred people who 14 actively post to it, probably 10 people account for 15 75 percent of the -- of the messages, just because, 16 you know, they -- they may post, you know, 50 or 60 17 messages a day. I mean, it's just like that's all 18 they do. I mean, you can't have time to do any 19 other thing in life than to sit there and post every 20 day, 50 or 60 messages. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q You -- 23 A And -- 24 So I don't know whether that answers your 25 question, but --
1547 1 Q No. 2 How many people post about you and are negative 3 about you? 4 A At the present time? 5 Q Well, let's say January, February of this year. 6 A Well, the same people who were part of this smear 7 campaign are still the same people who are posting negative 8 things about me now. 9 Q How many are -- how many is that? 10 A Maybe five. 11 Q You sure it's not two? 12 A Well, those two -- 13 THE COURT: You must be reading it too. 14 MR. DANDAR: Naw, I don't read it. 15 THE WITNESS: Ms. Greenway, his advisor, reads 16 it. 17 THE COURT: Five versus two. 18 I just made a point, an observation. 19 MR. DANDAR: Well, he says associated with me, 20 so I want him now to identify -- 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Who do you claim is associated with me posting bad 23 things about you -- 24 THE COURT: Maybe you could be working on your 25 motion for summary judgment if you weren't reading
1548 1 alt. -- 2 MR. DANDAR: I don't read it. 3 THE COURT: -- scientology -- 4 MR. DANDAR: I don't read it. I don't -- who 5 has time for that? 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q How many are associated, you claim, with me? 9 A Well, you know, I'm not sure that this really is 10 all relevant to this, but you know, Patricia Greenway first. 11 Q You actually see a post from her on the ARS? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor -- 13 A No. That's not -- 14 THE COURT: You want to object that it's not 15 relevant? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 THE WITNESS: You know -- 19 THE COURT: You don't need to say any more. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Okay. So after the -- the hearing in the morning 23 on April 9th before Judge Baird, you claim -- I think you 24 said this yesterday -- you didn't know that your deposition 25 was supposed to commence in Mr. Pope's office so that my
1549 1 brother or Mr. Lirot could cross examine you, correct? 2 A No. I had no advice that that was supposed to 3 happen. 4 Q Okay. So who did you meet with on April the 9th 5 after your hearing? 6 A I'm -- I'm not sure that we even had a meeting 7 with anybody other than Mr. Jonas again. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I -- 10 Q When's the -- 11 A I remember we -- Stacy and I took him to the 12 airport. I think that was the day he left. He wanted to 13 leave as soon as he could. Yeah. So I don't think there 14 was any meeting on April the 9th. And in fact, I don't know 15 whether Stacy Brooks and I left that night, as well, or the 16 next morning. But we went to New York after that. 17 Q Why? 18 A On the 10th and the 11th. 19 Q Why? 20 A I had meetings in New York. 21 Q With who? 22 A Nobody connected with this case. I mean -- 23 Q Personal meetings? 24 A Personal matters. 25 THE COURT: But personal matters unrelated to
1550 1 anything -- 2 THE WITNESS: Oh, completely. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: Nothing to do with this. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Have anything to do with the Swiss banks? 7 A No. 8 Q Did Mr. Jonas leave pleased and happy about your 9 testimony of April 9th? 10 MR. HOWIE: Objection to the extent it calls 11 for attorney-client privilege. 12 THE COURT: I think it does. 13 MR. DANDAR: All right. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q When's the next time you had any contact of any 17 kind -- any kind -- with the Church of Scientology? 18 A Well, it's possible that I talked to them on the 19 phone, but I -- I don't remember. But we came back to Tampa 20 on Friday morning. We flew out of New York on Friday 21 morning, Stacy Brooks and myself. 22 Q What date was that? 23 A The 12th. 24 Q Why did you come back? 25 A I'm not sure I remember what prompted us to come
1551 1 back. But I know that afternoon we had a -- no, I'm not 2 sure whether -- we were going to have a meeting that 3 afternoon with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. But we -- I 4 don't believe we had it. 5 Q Why? 6 A Because that was the day that Jesse Prince came 7 over to the Adams Mark Hotel. 8 Q So that was the 12th, right? 9 A And we spent a long time with him. 10 Q And this was a friendly -- 11 THE COURT: This was -- 12 Let me stop. 13 Was the meeting something that was called off; 14 just didn't happen; you just didn't get together? 15 What was -- wasn't a definite meeting and didn't 16 occur or you just don't remember? 17 THE WITNESS: You know, I believe there was a 18 definite meeting. You know, I -- Stacy and I got 19 here somewhat later than anticipated. And I 20 think -- I think we asked them if we could do it the 21 next day. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: The Sunday, I believe. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Well, that's two days away?
1552 1 A No. The 13th was supposed to be the day of the 2 meeting. That's the day we flew back to Tampa. 3 Q Is there any other reason -- 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm confused. I wrote 5 that you came back from New York on April the 12th. 6 Is that incorrect? 7 THE WITNESS: No. I'm sorry. The morning of 8 the 13th. Early in the morning, 9:00 or 9:30. 9 THE COURT: Okay. On April 13th. 10 THE WITNESS: From New York. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q I thought you previously testified you had a 14 meeting with Jesse Prince on the 12th? 15 THE COURT: I thought -- 16 THE WITNESS: I did. That's what I said. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Well, you had it in Clearwater, right? 19 A We had it at the -- as I said, we had a meeting 20 with Jesse Prince at the Adams Mark Hotel on the 12th. 21 Q All right. So you flew down here -- my question 22 is, you flew from New York to Clearwater on April the 12th. 23 A Correct. 24 Q And is there any reason, other than a meeting with 25 Mr. Rinder on the afternoon of the 12th, that would cause
1553 1 you to fly back from New York on the 12th? 2 A Not that I remember. 3 Q Okay. 4 A I think that was the reason we were coming back, 5 to meet with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. 6 THE COURT: On the 13th? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, originally we were going to 8 meet on the 12th. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: But you know, we -- 11 THE COURT: I got you. 12 THE WITNESS: -- put that off until the 13th. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Did you put it off because you told them you were 15 meeting with Jesse Prince? 16 A I -- I wasn't there, but I believe Stacy did tell 17 them that we were going to meet with Jesse that afternoon. 18 Q And how long did you meet with Jesse? 19 A At some -- it started sometime in the late 20 afternoon and went through dinner. You know, a fairly 21 late-ish dinner. 22 Q Like 9:00? 23 A Like -- it could have been. I don't know. 24 Q And that was a friendly -- 25 A But we -- we set in, you know, the restaurant for
1554 1 a long time. Stacy was involved in some -- Jesse and I 2 ended up being downstairs for some time by ourselves because 3 Stacy was talking on the phone. You know, as I think we've 4 all seen, that she does have a tendency to talk. And she 5 stayed on the phone a long time with somebody. And she came 6 down and joined us in the bar. 7 Q Was it Mr. Rinder that she was talking to? 8 A I don't believe it was. I believe it was personal 9 matters. 10 Q All right. And this meeting with Jesse lasted 11 then maybe, what, six hours, total time he was with you? 12 A You know, four to six. 13 Q All right. 14 A I'm not sure. 15 Q That's fine. Ballpark. 16 A I just remember we -- Jesse and I spent some 17 considerable time in the bar at this Adams Mark Hotel. 18 Stacy came down and joined us later. And we sat in the 19 restaurant for a long time, you know, after we ate. The 20 service was very slow, so we were going to be there a long 21 time anyway. But you know, we were just having friendly 22 talks, so didn't matter. 23 Q So was the whole experience on the 12th with Jesse 24 Prince a friendly experience? 25 A Yes. I'd say it was.
1555 1 Q Mr. Prince tell you why he got up and left the 2 hearing on April 9th, after he heard what you were saying 3 before Judge Baird? 4 A Yes, he did. 5 Q Did he tell you he got up and left the hearing 6 because he couldn't believe what you were saying? 7 A No. That's not what he said. What he said was 8 that he believed that he was watching me confessing to 9 perjury and that I was going to go to jail for it. That's 10 exactly what he said. And that's what he said that same 11 night to his girlfriend, Dee Phillips, who explained to us 12 why Jesse -- 13 THE COURT: Well beyond what you need to do 14 now. What you need to do is answer the question and 15 not go on and say what happened after that, okay? 16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. That -- I 17 was referring to a earlier -- 18 Okay. I'm sorry. 19 THE COURT: I know. But see, what you're 20 trying to do here now is to say, well, this is what 21 he told me, and I know that's true because this is 22 what I heard, that -- 23 You know, we don't need it. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25
1556 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Did Mr. Prince tell you on April the 12th -- 3 excuse me. Did you tell Mr. Prince on April the 12th that 4 he needed to set the record straight in the Lisa McPherson 5 case? 6 A What I told Jesse is I was pretty sure that he had 7 lied. 8 Q In the Lisa McPherson case. 9 A In -- in depositions. And one in particular I 10 mentioned. 11 Q And would -- did you also include telling him that 12 he lied in the Wollersheim case? 13 A No. 14 Q You just talked about Lisa McPherson. 15 A Well, yeah. 16 Q Okay. And what is the one particular area you 17 told Mr. Prince on April the 12th that he lied about? 18 A Well, you know -- well, the whole thing that 19 involved the deposition of the Key West trip, which Stacy 20 was there for, I believe. 21 Q Stacy was where? 22 A At his deposition. 23 Q Oh. And Mr. Prince described his trip to Key 24 West? 25 A Well, it was that one, yeah, that related around
1557 1 the whole Key West trip. 2 Q Okay. And what was his testimony in his 3 deposition that you told him, on April the 12th, was a lie? 4 A I didn't tell him what. I just told him that I 5 think he should review that. 6 THE COURT: About the Key West trip? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, that deposition that 8 involved the Key West trip. 9 THE COURT: Is that what you were saying that 10 you thought he'd lied about? I mean, what was it 11 you were concerned with that he had lied about? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, about that whole Key West 13 trip, and the purpose of it, and who was there, and 14 whether he flew down there with Mr. Dandar or flew 15 back -- you know, I -- I do not remember -- oh, I 16 don't remember exactly what I said, because I wasn't 17 at that deposition. But Stacy is the one who told 18 me that, you know, that Jesse was definitely -- 19 THE COURT: Well past where we need to be on 20 this. 21 The area that you told him you were concerned 22 about was whatever it was he said in his deposition 23 about a Key West trip, the whole thing surrounding 24 that. 25 THE WITNESS: That's right.
1558 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: That's right, your Honor. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q All right. Did you tell him anything else that he 5 lied about in the Lisa McPherson case? 6 A No. 7 Q All right. And what was his reply? 8 A He said, you know, "I don't -- I don't think I 9 ever told any lies in any depositions." 10 Q Okay. And so who else did you tell him about 11 doing any kind of negotiating with the Church of 12 Scientology? 13 A Well, Jesse -- you know, I told him that -- that, 14 you know, I was trying to look out for his interest when we 15 met in New York. I didn't tell him how I was looking out 16 for his interest. 17 But the thing in terms of his house. He's -- he's 18 felt -- and you know, I don't know whether he's right or 19 wrong -- he's felt that somehow his house hasn't sold 20 because Scientology won't let anybody buy it. 21 Q In fact, you talked about his house in your 22 negotiations in New York, didn't you? 23 A That's -- yeah. 24 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, he keeps interrupting 25 the witness.
1559 1 MR. DANDAR: Well, he keeps -- I'm not 2 interrupting him. Mr. Minton is looking at me -- 3 THE COURT: That's all right. Overruled. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Okay. Mr. Minton, I'm looking at you, and it 6 looks like you're stopped. That's why I start talking 7 again, so put your hands up or something if you're not 8 done -- 9 A Okay. 10 Q -- or something. 11 Did I interrupt you just now? 12 A I don't remember. You've interrupted me so many 13 times I don't remember whether it happened then or not. 14 Q All right. Let's try to do it better. I will 15 anyway. 16 A Mr. Prince was enthusiastic about the possibility 17 of being able to just get out of Clearwater and walk away 18 from all this mess. He -- he had had -- he's had 19 problems -- 20 THE COURT: I don't know what the question is 21 here. What are we -- 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Why -- 24 THE COURT: Why are we reflecting on Jesse 25 Prince?
1560 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Why did you talk about Jesse Prince being able to 3 sell his house with the Church of Scientology? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Well, in answer to your 5 question, I think he was asking what he said to 6 Mr. Prince and what Mr. Prince said to him. 7 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 8 MR. WEINBERG: And that's what he was 9 describing. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 A So -- 12 THE COURT: Well, what each of them said is one 13 thing. But for him to start saying, "I think he was 14 worried about --" if he wasn't saying it, we just 15 don't need it. 16 MR. DANDAR: Exactly. 17 THE WITNESS: No, no. He was saying it. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. -- Mr. Prince had a lot of 20 problems selling his house. He's telling me that 21 he's had a lot of -- this is over the last number of 22 months -- that he's had a lot of problems selling 23 his house. 24 It turned out that he was not truthful about 25 why some of the problems were occurring. For
1561 1 example, he first -- 2 THE COURT: See, we don't need to go there. 3 We're talking about a communication that you had 4 with Mr. Prince on the 13th. 5 MR. DANDAR: 12th. 6 THE COURT: 12th. 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 8 THE COURT: And what he said and you said. 9 Now, I don't even know what -- the last thing 10 that I wrote down that you said was, you said to 11 him, "I've looked out for your interest in New 12 York." 13 THE WITNESS: "I've tried to look after your 14 interest in New York." 15 THE COURT: "I've tried to look out for your 16 interest in New York." 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q That interest in New York was when you were 19 talking with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen. And you included, as 20 part of your negotiations, Mr. Prince being able to sell his 21 house in Clearwater. 22 A Yes. I -- I did, yeah. 23 Q All right. And the reason why you included that 24 is because you were led to believe by Mr. Prince that he was 25 unable to sell his house in Clearwater because the Church of
1562 1 Scientology was in some way stifling that attempt. 2 A Yeah. I -- you know -- yeah. 3 Q All right. So what did you talk about with Mr. -- 4 What was the response, by the way, of Mr. Rinder 5 or Mr. Rosen or Ms. Yingling in New York City when you 6 brought up Mr. Prince's attempts to sell his house? 7 A Nothing. 8 Q Did you talk about it on April 6th in Clearwater 9 with Mr. Rinder? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. So on April the 12th, this subject matter 12 comes up about you trying to protect Mr. Prince's interest, 13 selling his house. And what did Mr. Prince respond? 14 A "That's great." 15 Q Okay. 16 A You know, "I want to get out of here." 17 And you know, we asked him -- both Stacy and I 18 asked him, because we had had a problem with this -- he had 19 put his house on the market for $90,000 higher than the 20 realtor recommended. And we asked him whether he had 21 corrected all of this problem with the realtor. He said 22 "Yes." You know, "I've got it on a realistic price that the 23 realtor advised." 24 So you know, I mean, that was a concern, you know, 25 because that was also part of his problem.
1563 1 Q Well, talk to -- tell us what was said between you 2 and Jesse Prince on April the 12th that had to do with your 3 negotiations with Scientology. 4 A Well, there weren't negotiations going on. There 5 were discussions about setting the record straight, telling 6 the truth about the Florida cases. That's -- that's all 7 that was talked about. 8 Q And outside of the -- what you told Mr. Prince 9 something he had to correct about the Key West trip, you 10 didn't tell him anything else that he had to recant? 11 A Not that -- not that I recall, or not that I 12 recall Stacy Brooks saying. 13 Q Okay. Was there any further discussion on April 14 the 12th, between you, Ms. Brooks and Jesse Prince, about 15 your negotiations with the Church of Scientology? 16 A Not that I remember. 17 Q All right. Next -- did you call anybody like 18 Mr. Rinder or anybody on April the 12th, to set up this 19 meeting for the 13th, other than what you've already talked 20 about? 21 A Other than just to reschedule it for the 13th. 22 Q Okay. So did you call any of your attorneys to 23 tell them you were going back in to meet with Mr. Rinder on 24 the 13th? 25 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Privilege.
1564 1 THE COURT: No, it's not. The question is did 2 he call, not what did he say. Overruled. 3 A I don't remember whether I did or not. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q By the way -- go back to Mr. Jonas coming down 6 here for your deposition on April the 8th and being upset 7 with you, that you met with Mr. Rinder. 8 Are you saying that Mr. Jonas -- 9 A That's not what I testified to. 10 Q All right. I mean -- 11 THE COURT: Well, he hasn't asked you a 12 question. 13 We'll all recall what he testified to. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Did Mr. Jonas know about this letter that 16 Mr. Moxon wrote, apparently was signed on April the 5th, 17 saying it's okay for you to walk in there on April the 6th 18 and meet with Mr. Rinder without your attorneys? 19 A I don't remember whether I told him about it or 20 not. But you know, I told him that I was going to meet with 21 them, you know, that day. 22 Q Just didn't tell him you were going to meet with 23 them without Mr. Howie being present. 24 A I did. You know -- I mean, I told him we were 25 going by ourselves.
1565 1 Q Okay. On April the 13th of -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. April the 13th. We're done 3 with the 12th? 4 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are. 5 THE COURT: Then -- it's 10:25. We're going to 6 take a break. We'll be in recess until a quarter 7 till. 8 You all can be at ease. 9 (A recess was taken at 10:28 a.m.) 10 (The proceedings resumed at 10:50 a.m.) 11 THE COURT: You may continue. 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, if this is too loud, let me 13 know and I'll shut it off. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q All right. Before we get to April 13th -- and if 17 I asked you this, I apologize, but I didn't think I did -- 18 Did Mr. Armstrong know that the UBS check was your 19 money? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did Ms. Brooks know? 22 A I don't think she was -- 23 Q Pardon me? 24 A I don't think she was aware. 25 Q All right. What happened on April 13th?
1566 1 A I believe that we met in the morning of April 13th 2 with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Yingling -- Mrs. Yingling. 3 Q Anyone else? 4 A Anyone else from the Church of Scientology? 5 Q Correct. 6 A I don't think so. In fact, I'm not even sure 7 Ms. Yingling was at that meeting because of the cancellation 8 of the day before. There was a weekend that she flew back 9 to Washington to be with her children, and there were 10 some -- I don't know whether it was this weekend or not. 11 Q All right. 12 A There was a meeting scheduled with both of them, 13 but I think it might have just been with Mr. Rinder that 14 day. 15 Q So you have a recollection that you met with 16 Mr. Rinder all by yourself? 17 A Stacy Brooks and I. 18 Q Right. The three of you? 19 A Yes. 20 It might have -- 21 THE COURT: That's -- that's your best 22 recollection; it was just Mr. Rinder on that date? 23 THE WITNESS: To my best recollection, yes, but 24 you know, I'm not a hundred percent certain on that. 25
1567 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q And what was discussed? 3 A Well, I think that's -- I think that's the day 4 that -- that Mr. Rinder had put together three piles of 5 documents that related to testimony -- well, not testimony, 6 but any mention of those three areas that -- that we had 7 described in the April 6th meeting. 8 Q So he had three piles -- 9 Did he have any assistants with him? 10 A There were -- well, there were two or three people 11 who were, you know, in Mr. Pope's building. I think one -- 12 one was from Mr. Pope's office, and two, I believe, were 13 from the Church of Scientology. 14 Q Any of the assistants that are in the courtroom? 15 A Not that -- not that I recognize. 16 Q All right. And how big were these three piles of 17 documents? 18 A You know, they weren't -- they weren't huge piles 19 by any means. You know, maybe, in the aggregate -- well, 20 I'm just trying to think of the three piles. Maybe three or 21 four inches total. 22 Q One had to do with one check, UBS check, of May, 23 2000, right? 24 A No. It had to do with any time that I had 25 testified about the amount of money that I had given to the
1568 1 estate. 2 Q All right. Did it go back to the January, '98 3 deposition? 4 A I believe it -- it went all the way back to the 5 beginning, yes. 6 Q Did it include all your Internet postings? 7 A No. There were Internet postings later that were 8 talked about. 9 Q About the money? 10 A About a lot of things. But -- 11 Q Okay. 12 A -- this day, there were just piles of documents 13 that related to testimony. I believe it was just testimony. 14 Q Was the testimony highlighted? 15 A I don't think those were. There were some later 16 that were. 17 Q All right. At this meeting on April 13th, did 18 Mr. Rinder hand you these three piles to look at? 19 A Well, first he went through and asked questions. 20 You know, it was sort of like a cross examination. He just 21 had questions -- he went through these documents and would 22 ask questions. And he handed me a document that related to 23 one of these, yeah. 24 Q And was this being recorded? 25 A Videoed or --
1569 1 Q Any way recorded. 2 A Not to my knowledge. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I interrupt 4 for a second? 5 Would it be possible to cut off the machine? 6 You might be able to hear, but I'm having trouble 7 hearing because of the machine. 8 THE COURT: Okay. What are you -- what are you 9 copying there? 10 MR. DANDAR: Another exhibit. But I'll cancel 11 it. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, how long will it take? 13 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. I don't know how 14 long this document is. It's another posting of 15 Mr. Minton's. And right now it looks like about 16 20-some pages. 17 THE COURT: Well, how long do you think it is? 18 MR. DANDAR: I have no clue. But I'll stop it, 19 'cause -- 20 I'll do it during lunch. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 23 THE COURT: That's all right. I was trying to 24 overlook it, myself. 25 MR. WEINBERG: And I'm closer to it and it's
1570 1 harder for me to hear. 2 THE COURT: Yes, you are. 3 MR. DANDAR: Well, I thought I stopped it. I 4 hit cancel. 5 I'll just shut it off. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, while I think of it, did 7 you have an opportunity to speak with your client? 8 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, I did. 9 THE COURT: I'm not real keen on changing 10 courses in the middle of the stream, but whatever it 11 is that Mr. Minton was going to contemplate giving 12 up his Fifth Amendment right, has he done that or is 13 he going to do that? 14 MR. HOWIE: No, your honor. We're going to 15 stay the course without changing horses in 16 midstream. 17 THE COURT: Then we'll not have to go back and 18 re-do anything. 19 MR. HOWIE: No, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Continue. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q So was Ben Shaw there on the 13th? 23 A No. I think it was just Mr. Rinder. 24 Q Okay. And -- 25 A I mean, Mr. Shaw was definitely not there.
1571 1 Q How long did this meeting last? 2 A It seemed like it lasted most of the afternoon. 3 You know, I think it started -- you know, I'm not sure, but 4 I believe it -- I mean, the tendency was for these things to 5 start in the afternoon sometime. Sometimes they would start 6 at 1, sometimes they would start at 4. But I think this 7 started, you know, 2:00, say, and it might have gone on 8 until suppertime. 9 Q Well, I think you -- you just told us it started 10 in the morning. 11 A Which day -- which day is this? 12 Q The 13th. 13 A Okay. Well, it could have started in the morning, 14 it could have started in the afternoon. I'm just not really 15 sure. 16 Q All right. All right. So it goes on till, what, 17 5:00, 4:00? 18 A You know, I'm just guessing because -- 19 Q All right. 20 A -- you know, I didn't write this stuff down. 21 Q Did anyone join you in the meeting? Anybody else 22 come to the meeting besides Mr. Rinder? 23 A Well, you know, people would come into the room to 24 bring things, snacks -- 25 Q Did you eat lunch there?
1572 1 A I think we ate something there. I don't know 2 whether it was lunch or like a mid-afternoon snack. I 3 think -- I remember Ms. Brooks was -- 4 There was some sort of snacks brought -- 5 Q How about -- 6 A -- and Ms. Brooks -- 7 Just let me finish that. 8 There were snacks brought, and I think these were 9 things that Ms. Brooks' diet didn't like, and so she asked 10 if they could bring a fruit plate from the restaurant at the 11 Ft. Harrison, and they brought a fruit plate for her. And I 12 think some Starbucks coffee got brought in later. 13 Q So Mr. Rinder would go through the documents and 14 ask you, you know, "Is this true or false?" Is that what he 15 was doing? 16 A I don't -- you know, it wasn't a true-and-false 17 exam. It was just, you know, asking questions just like 18 you're asking questions or -- you know, about this stuff. 19 Q And you don't recall if the testimony he handed 20 you to look at was highlighted? 21 A I don't believe, that day, it was. We -- we did 22 get some highlighted stuff at the beginning of the following 23 week, I think. 24 Q Did the -- did the testimony go beyond the -- the 25 questioning go beyond the three areas of the UBS checks, the
1573 1 secret agreement and the Miscavige meeting that you talked 2 about yesterday? 3 A That day, I don't believe it did. I think it was 4 concentrated on that. 5 Q Okay. And the only thing he showed you is the -- 6 your prior testimony? 7 A I think it was not just mine; it was Stacy 8 Brooks's, if she was involved in any of this. You know, I 9 believe there were stuff of Stacy's there too. 10 Q Okay. 11 A You know, I -- it might have had some court 12 pleadings in it. It had some affidavits in it. You know, 13 that -- that -- what I'm trying to say is, it wasn't just 14 deposition transcripts. I think it included affidavits, 15 court pleadings, things of that nature. 16 Q What kind of questions did he ask you? 17 A I just -- I don't remember. It was all about 18 those three areas. It was just like, you know, being under 19 cross examination. 20 Q Okay. Did he ask you questions like, "And isn't 21 it true Dandar knew you were lying when you said this?" 22 A No. I don't -- I don't think -- you know, I think 23 I described to him situations where that was involved. 24 Q Well, I'm sitting here or standing here trying to 25 figure out how this meeting lasts hours and hours, if you
1574 1 just went over three areas of -- 2 You know, wasn't there other things discussed 3 besides that? 4 A Not to my knowledge. 5 And you know, what -- you know, look at how long 6 all this examination has taken -- 7 THE COURT: Strange, I was thinking the same 8 thing. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: As was I. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q So what happened after the meeting on April 13th? 13 What's the next thing that happened connected with the 14 Church of Scientology? 15 A I think that evening Stacy Brooks and I went back 16 to the hotel. You know, we had dinner somewhere, we went to 17 the hotel, and we were going to -- I believe -- yeah. The 18 next morning -- we went to bed early that night because we 19 were going to move hotels. We didn't like the Adams Mark 20 and we were going to move up the street to the Radisson 21 Hotel. And we went to bed early. We were actually going to 22 move that night, but I think we did it early the Sunday 23 morning. 24 Q Okay. Well, who -- 25 A And you know, there -- there wasn't any other
1575 1 stuff that related to Scientology that day. 2 Q All right. Tell me what related to Scientology on 3 the Sunday the 14th. 4 A Well, we didn't have any meetings with them on the 5 14th. We -- Michael Garko had said that he was going to 6 come over to meet us after that lunch on that Sunday. And 7 either the night before or that morning, we had talked to 8 him to tell him we were changing hotels, just to tell him 9 where to go. 10 Q Well, how did you get ahold of Michael Garko at 11 all? How did -- he called you? You called him? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q Well, Michael Garko certainly didn't know you were 14 at the Adams Mark Hotel, did he? 15 A Well, I mean, we used Stacy's cell phone. He 16 doesn't know my cell phone number, or at least he didn't 17 then. No, I had given it to him, 'cause he gave me his cell 18 phone number. 19 Q When? 20 A Sometime, you know, a few days before this. 21 Q Well -- 22 A I don't remember when. 23 Q Okay. When's the first time you contacted -- had 24 any contact with Michael Garko in April of 2002? 25 A Well, I don't know the date, but we talked
1576 1 sometime by phone relative to meeting. 2 Q Okay. Was it after Judge Baird's hearing, 3 April 9th? 4 A Yeah. It would have been after that, yes. 5 Q All right. Did he call you or did you call him? 6 A I don't remember. 7 Q Okay. What was discussed? 8 A On the phone? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A That we were -- that we were going to meet. 11 Q Yeah. Why -- why was there a meeting even 12 discussed? 13 A Well, Stacy and I had met with Michael Garko a 14 number of times. 15 Why not meet with him? 16 You know, what -- what we discussed at the 17 meeting, if you want to get to that -- I don't think the 18 phone conversations had anything of significance. 19 THE COURT: Well, it might have. If you called 20 him and said, "We'd like to meet with you. Come on 21 over," or if he just called and said, "I think I'll 22 just drop in and we'll have dinner together." 23 In other words, it seems odd that Mr. Dandar's 24 investigator -- 25 THE WITNESS: No, no. He was the trial
1577 1 consultant. 2 THE COURT: The trial consultant. 3 Now that this 9th hearing had occurred, where 4 it was clear to everybody that you were going to 5 recant certain testimony, indicate that Mr. Dandar 6 had caused you to lie -- this was out on the table 7 now -- 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 THE COURT: -- that Mr. Dandar's trial 10 consultant would just kind of casually stop by and 11 pay a visit. 12 Something must have occasioned either him to 13 call you or you to call him and say, "Let's talk." 14 So do your best to tell me what that was, 'cause I'm 15 curious. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I would like to 17 be able to give you a definitive answer, but I don't 18 know a definitive answer. 19 THE COURT: Well, maybe Mr. Garko can. 20 Whatever it is he tells me, you have no way 21 that you can contradict it, I take it. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether I called him 23 or Stacy Brooks called him or he called Stacy 24 Brooks. You know, I just don't know, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Was the purpose of the meeting to
1578 1 have a -- have dinner together, or was the purpose 2 of the meeting to discuss this case? 3 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, based on what -- 4 what happened at the meeting, you know, Mr. Garko 5 had some -- Dr. Garko had some concerns that he 6 talked about extensively. 7 THE COURT: So does that mean that your best 8 recollection is that your -- the purpose of your 9 meeting was to discuss the case? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, to discuss Dr. Garko's 11 concerns, which were principally -- you know, 12 revolved around one area. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And that area was money? 16 A The money. 17 Q And was that on the phone or was that only when 18 you saw him on April 14th? 19 A Well, it definitely was on April 14th, but I don't 20 know whether it was discussed at all on the phone. 21 Q Okay. So what time did you see him on April 14th? 22 A Sometime early, kind of, afternoon. 23 Q Had you had any conversations with anyone from 24 Scientology before Dr. Garko arrived? 25 A I don't think so. I don't think so. You know,
1579 1 other than the last meeting with Mr. Rinder. 2 Q Did you tell Mr. Rinder on April 13th that you 3 were going to meet with Michael Garko the next day? 4 A I don't believe so. 5 Q Did Stacy Brooks tell him? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q Did Garko's name come up at all on April 13th? 8 A No. Not that I remember. 9 Q Did Jesse Prince's name come up at all on 10 April 13th? 11 A Yes. I believe Ms. Brooks told Mr. Rinder about 12 the meeting with Jesse Prince, you know, for dinner the 13 night before. 14 Q All right. And is there anything she told him 15 other than -- or in addition to, "We told Jesse that there 16 was -- he lied about his Key West, and Jesse said he didn't 17 lie about anything"? Was there anything more that was said 18 to Mr. Rinder? 19 A I don't remember anything that was discussed, 20 apart from that. 21 Q All right. So on April 14th, you had a meeting 22 with Dr. Garko. 23 A Yes. 24 Q And it was a lunch meeting? 25 A No. It was after lunch. It was sometime early
1580 1 afternoon, you know. 2 Q And it was -- 3 A By early afternoon, I mean maybe around 2:00. 4 Q And it was at the Radisson? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. It was in the hotel room? 7 A Yes. 8 Q All right. And what was discussed? 9 A Well, when he first got there -- actually, I 10 wasn't there when he first got there. I had gone to a store 11 nearby. 12 I remember we were -- I think Stacy and Dr. Garko 13 were sitting on the sofa. I was sitting in a chair. And he 14 started by telling us about what happened after this 15 April 9th hearing, after Mr. Lirot and Ms. Greenway came to 16 brief you and Dr. Garko about what was testified to at that 17 hearing. 18 Q Okay. He talked about his conversations 19 between -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor -- 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q -- he and I? 23 MR. WEINBERG: My objection is that Mr. Dandar 24 asked Mr. Minton what happened. Mr. Minton's in the 25 process of telling him what happened. Now he's
1581 1 interrupted him in the middle of a -- of a thought. 2 And -- 3 THE COURT: If it's in the middle of a thought, 4 he should not do that. If, on the other hand, he's 5 got some question and it -- and it can be asked then 6 as opposed to going back later, that's okay. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he was just -- 8 MR. DANDAR: I thought he was done. 9 MR. WEINBERG: He was just explaining -- 10 about -- 11 MR. DANDAR: This takes too much time. 12 MR. WEINBERG: -- the conversation with 13 Mr. Lirot and that Garko was describing a 14 conversation -- 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 16 MR. WEINBERG: -- with Ms. Greenway and 17 Mr. Lirot. 18 THE WITNESS: You know -- 19 THE COURT: Go ahead. Finish that. 20 THE WITNESS: If I could finish that -- 21 A I believe I've already testified about this, 22 but -- 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Well, let me just stop you. 25 Did you already testify about it? Because we'll
1582 1 go on to something else. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 3 A Well, I'd like to answer it. I believe I did 4 testify about it, but you know, if you want an answer to it, 5 I'll give it to you again. 6 THE COURT: I don't remember it. What -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: I -- 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Go ahead. 10 A Okay. 11 Q Go ahead. Say it again. 12 A All right. Dr. Garko explained that -- that 13 Ms. Greenway and Mr. Lirot came to wherever you two were 14 that day and sat down -- and those two sat down and briefed 15 you and Dr. Garko on the testimony that occurred in Judge 16 Baird's court. And Dr. Garko expressed to me that he was 17 absolutely shocked to find out that you had gotten a 18 $500,000 check back in -- well, at the time, May of 2001, 19 because that's what I said when I was on the witness stand 20 there; and then the $250,000 check after you two had come up 21 to New Hampshire. 22 And he -- he then related that when you and 23 Dr. Garko went out to the parking lot, that there was a 24 confrontation that happened. And Garko was complaining, 25 what he described as sort of bitterly, about the fact that
1583 1 you had lied to him and not told him about any of this 2 money, and had been telling him for some time that you 3 didn't have the money to pay him. And at that time, I 4 believe he was eight months in arrears on -- or you were 5 eight months in arrears on -- 6 THE COURT: Now we are in repeat testimony? 7 Because I remember this. 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q That's because you testified on April 9th that I 11 got this $500,000 UBS check in the year 2001. 12 A Right. I was mistaken. You know, I said 2001. 13 It was 2000. 14 Q Anything else that was talked about? 15 A Yes. He -- he said that, you know, he said to you 16 in that parking lot that, you know, "What do I have to do to 17 get my money, Ken?" And, "Hire a lawyer?" And that you, in 18 a snarly way, said to him, "You know, Michael, there's 19 nothing you can do about it." 20 So that was the end of him recounting that parking 21 lot thing. 22 He -- he also said that, you know, "Ken had been 23 telling me that he'd been financing this out of his 24 retirement account." And he went back to the time when you 25 got the $250,000 check, that -- the one that was drawn on
1584 1 Bank of America; that -- the one that came out of that 2 meeting at the Belleview Biltmore Restaurant. He said you 3 told him then that you had spent money out of your 4 retirement account, so that that money had to go back into 5 your retirement account, and you still didn't have any 6 money. 7 So I mean, he felt -- you know, he described how 8 he felt, you know, that he had been lied to and betrayed by 9 you, and you know, somebody who, you know, worked, you know, 10 just like this with Dr. Garko, you know, basically side by 11 side throughout the course of this trial -- 12 THE COURT: This is repeat testimony. 13 MR. DANDAR: It is. It is. 14 THE COURT: So I really don't want to hear it. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Who brought up the David Miscavige meeting? 18 THE COURT: I mean, if there's anything else 19 that you've remembered from before -- 20 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Who brought up the David Miscavige meeting? 24 A I think I did. 25 Q And why did you bring it up?
1585 1 A Because I think I testified about it on April 9th. 2 Q So you brought it up to get Dr. Garko to confirm 3 or support your version of that? 4 A Well, I wanted to see what his recollection of it 5 was as well. 6 Q What was his recollection? 7 A He said that he didn't -- he didn't remember the 8 meeting; that -- that he would have to check his -- he 9 said -- he said, "Well, you know, I remember a meeting, but 10 I thought it was after -- after David Miscavige was added or 11 after we tried to add David Miscavige." And he said, "I'll 12 have to check my notes." He said, "You know, I keep fairly 13 detailed notes about my time spent so that I can bill it." 14 And he said, "I'll -- I'll let you know when I go back, 15 and -- I'll check my notes." 16 But he -- he clearly said he didn't remember the 17 meeting -- 18 Q Isn't it true -- 19 A -- so -- 20 THE COURT: He did or did not? 21 THE WITNESS: That he did not remember the 22 meeting. 23 A So if I can continue -- 24 Yeah. I think he also -- I don't know whether it 25 was this time or a phone conversation, but he also expressed
1586 1 some concern that he was going to be added as a defendant in 2 the breach case. I -- I think that was that day. It could 3 have been, you know, at a subsequent phone call. I'm not 4 sure. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Anything else? 7 A That was the -- the essence of it. You know, I 8 don't remember any other details of it. 9 Q Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, that on this April 14th 10 meeting with Dr. Garko, he told you specifically you were 11 never at a meeting discussing adding on David Miscavige as a 12 party defendant? 13 A He -- he certainly didn't say that. He said, as I 14 already have testified -- 15 Q No, no. Just yes or no. That's fine. 16 THE COURT: Well, that's a fair yes or no -- 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 THE COURT: -- because he's explained what he 19 said several times. 20 MR. DANDAR: Right. 21 THE COURT: So he does not get to explain that. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Okay. And how long did this meeting last, with 24 Dr. Garko? 25 A Up until around 4:30, 5:00, something like that.
1587 1 Q So about three hours? 2 A Approximately. 3 Q Okay. 4 A It could have been two, it could have been four. 5 I -- you know, I think it was in that sort of time frame. 6 Q All right. All right. And what else did you do 7 that day in reference to Scientology? 8 A Well, you know -- 9 You mean where the word "Scientology" was 10 discussed? 11 Q No. 12 A Is that what you mean, in reference to 13 Scientology, or -- 14 Q No. Who did you talk to, see, get documents from, 15 whatever it has to do with Scientology? 16 A I got some documents while Dr. Garko was there. 17 Q From who? 18 A I believe Mr. Rinder sent them over to me. 19 Q What were they? 20 A They were -- it was a transcript of one or two 21 hearings in front of Judge Schaeffer about the issue of 22 Jesse Prince. And -- yeah. That's what it was about. 23 Q And were you expecting this? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And how was it -- why were you expecting this?
1588 1 A Well, because the -- the night before, the night 2 we had the dinner with Jesse, Jesse had said, you know, he 3 wanted to be part of these negotiations and -- you know, 4 with Scientology. And you know, I didn't think that was a 5 good idea. 6 Q Why? 7 A Well, you know, Jesse is a -- he doesn't like them 8 very much. He doesn't like the Scientologists. I know he 9 doesn't like Mr. Rinder. 10 Q Well, up until this year, you didn't either. 11 A Well -- now -- but Mr. Prince's dislike is a lot 12 more intense. 13 Q Is his dislike more intense than what you posted 14 on the Internet about Scientology and Mr. Rinder? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 A You know -- and he bases that on -- or at least 18 what he's told me -- that, you know, his personal experience 19 in Scientology involving Mike Rinder was not good. 20 And you know, I -- I mentioned that to Mr. Rinder, 21 that Jesse wanted to be involved in these discussions, and I 22 didn't think that was a good idea. And Mr. Rinder said, 23 "Well, you know, we can't even meet with him." And I said, 24 "Why?" And he said, "Because Judge Schaeffer ordered that 25 we can't." And I said, "Well, could you send me something
1589 1 that shows that? Because I'll show that to Jesse, and 2 that'll -- that'll, you know, eliminate him wanting to do 3 it, because he can't." 4 Q And so the only thing you got from Mr. Rinder on 5 Sunday the 14th was transcripts of a hearing where Judge 6 Schaeffer said that? 7 A Yeah. I believe -- I think that -- don't quote me 8 for sure on these dates, but I think one of them was 9 March 8th and one of them was March 1st. 10 Q And it said -- 11 A And one of those two had something about this in 12 it. 13 Q Okay. And -- 14 A And it was -- you know, it was tabbed, you know, 15 the tab where -- where it started. And it went on for a lot 16 of pages. 17 Q So it was the entire transcript, and it was tabbed 18 so you could see where pertinent parts were. 19 A I'm not sure that -- well, it might have been the 20 whole transcript. I'm not sure. 21 Q All right. 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Again, this was -- I 23 had indicated that Jesse Prince couldn't meet with 24 Scientology. 25 THE WITNESS: No. That -- that they couldn't
1590 1 meet with him or they couldn't do anything with him 2 because of -- 3 This -- this apparently revolved around the 4 issue of -- 5 THE COURT: The sanctions? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. That's -- it had 7 something to do with that. It was -- 8 You know, I remember the index for sure of the 9 hearing was in there, you know, the cover page and 10 an index. And there were -- 11 I think this was -- one of these things was a 12 Frye -- it said Frye hearing or something. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q All right. 15 A On the cover page. 16 But -- 17 Q That's right. 18 A There was stuff about Jesse in there. 19 Q Yeah. We talked about Jesse at the Frye hearing. 20 A All right. 21 Q Now, it was Mr. Rinder's idea to send you this 22 transcript so you could tell Jesse that Mr. Rinder couldn't 23 contact him directly because of what Judge Schaeffer said. 24 A I think I asked him, you know, to send me 25 something that showed that.
1591 1 Q And did Mr. Rinder say he wanted to meet with 2 Jesse Prince when you had a meeting with Mr. Rinder on the 3 13th? 4 A No. 5 Q All right. So these documents -- without anything 6 else delivered on the 13th -- 14th, at your Radisson Hotel 7 room, other than what you just described as being the -- 8 Judge Schaeffer's hearing transcripts. 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. What happened next? 11 A Well, this is, you know, the subject of my 12 affidavit, where we met with Jesse Prince that night; the 13 third affidavit. 14 Q All right. All right. How did that meeting get 15 set up? 16 A I guess when we were meeting -- we were at the 17 Adams Mark Hotel that evening having dinner on the Friday 18 that we -- that Stacy -- you know, Stacy's the social 19 director. She would have set up this meeting. I think -- 20 you know, I don't recall having anything to do with having 21 set it up. 22 You know, Jesse was -- you know, Jesse was 23 clearly -- well, in fact I remember on the Friday -- the 24 Saturday, Jesse called up either on Stacy's cell phone or 25 the hotel phone -- and I think it was that night -- and you
1592 1 know, there was something very different about his voice. 2 And in fact I commented to him, you know, "Jesse, why are 3 you being so surly with me?" You know, it was a -- it was 4 an un- -- it was a very unusual posture on Jesse's part. He 5 was being very surly about something. I don't remember what 6 it was, but you know, I -- I found it strange enough that I 7 would comment on it to him on the phone that night, this -- 8 I think it was the Saturday night. 9 THE COURT: Is this still the 14th? 10 MR. DANDAR: 13th now. 11 THE COURT: 13th. 12 THE WITNESS: Let's see. The Saturday is the 13 13th, I believe. Yeah. 14 15 So in any event, he came -- you know, how it 16 was arranged, I'm not sure. But he -- he said again 17 that he was coming the next night. Whether he said 18 that to me or Stacy, I don't remember. We both, I 19 think, talked to him on the phone. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Didn't you tell him, the 12th or the 13th or the 22 14th, to come over and meet with Scientology on the 14th? 23 A Absolutely not. Absolutely not. 24 Q Okay. What time did Mr. Prince arrive on the 25 14th?
1593 1 A It was for dinner and he was late, so -- 2 THE COURT: Haven't we been through this 3 meeting too? 4 MR. DANDAR: We have. 5 THE COURT: Well, then let's -- 6 THE WITNESS: Did I go through it, your Honor? 7 THE COURT: I believe so. Now maybe not, but I 8 thought we did. 9 MR. DANDAR: I think Brooks went through it, 10 but -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: I think you read about it in the 12 affidavit. 13 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And Mr. -- 16 A I don't recall -- 17 Q Mr. Prince was -- 18 A -- testifying. 19 Q Mr. Prince was not very pleasant with you on the 20 14th, correct? 21 A That would be an understatement, yes. 22 Q And he wanted to meet with Mr. Rinder, correct? 23 A He did. Yeah. He said, you know, "I want to -- I 24 want to meet with him and get right in his face." 25 Q And you told Mr. Prince he couldn't meet with
1594 1 Mr. Rinder unless he recanted some testimony. 2 A That is not true. What I told him is he couldn't 3 meet with Mr. Rinder because Mr. Rinder wasn't allowed to 4 meet with him. And I said, you know, "Let me read you a 5 part from this transcript that says that." He said, "I 6 don't want you to read a damn thing to me. Just summarize 7 what it is." 8 Q And in your summary to Mr. Prince, did you tell 9 him that Judge Schaeffer's going to put him in jail? 10 A When I was summarizing the part that I referred 11 to. You know, I told him what Judge Schaeffer had said 12 about if Mr. Dandar wanted him to be his expert witness, 13 she'd make sure he stayed here by putting him in jail. 14 That's what it said. 15 I mean, this was all -- I was trying to read parts 16 of it to him. 17 Q Okay. When's the next time you had any -- any 18 contact of any kind with the Church of Scientology? 19 A That night. That night after this meeting. 20 Q All right. What -- 21 A Well, it -- 22 Q Let me interrupt you. 23 A No. No. Can I answer? 24 Q Before you get there, let me interrupt you. Just 25 wait a minute.
1595 1 Didn't you get documents delivered to the hotel 2 when Mr. Prince was there? 3 A Absolutely not. 4 Q Okay. 5 A No documents were delivered by -- while Mr. Prince 6 was even remotely close to the hotel, unless he was lurking 7 in the lobbies, one of the ones that came while Dr. Garko 8 was there. 'Cause I left the room, you know, to go get the 9 documents. They called from the front desk to say that, 10 "Documents are here for you," and I went down and got them. 11 Q And that was while Dr. Garko was there. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. Not while Mr. Prince was there. 14 A That's right. 15 Q All right. So what was the contact, after 16 Mr. Prince left on Sunday the 14th? With the Church of 17 Scientology. 18 A With the Church of Scientology. 19 Well, I called Mr. Rinder. And the reason I 20 called Mr. Rinder is that I wanted to -- well, after 21 discussing the matter with the appropriate people, I felt 22 that I should, number one, report what had happened, to the 23 police, the Clearwater police, and to the Church of 24 Scientology. Because I thought that Mr. Prince's threats 25 were genuine and real threats that should be dealt with by
1596 1 law enforcement. 2 Stacy Brooks was not anxious for me to do that. 3 She said Jesse was just drunk. You know, "Everything will 4 be okay. Don't worry. He was just drunk." 5 THE COURT: Are we past the meeting now? 6 THE WITNESS: We're after the meeting. 7 THE COURT: After the meeting. Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: You know, this is the same night. 9 But you know, right after the meeting. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 A So you know, I called a lawyer. I called 12 Mr. Rinder. 13 I was advised -- well, I was -- well, let's see. 14 How can I do this without doing this attorney-client 15 privilege thing that Mr. Howie's telling me about? 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q As a result of talking to your lawyer -- 18 Was that Mr. Howie, by the way? 19 A No. 20 Q Who was it? 21 A Mr. Jonas. 22 Q Okay. After talking with Mr. Jonas, what did you 23 do? 24 A Well, I discussed with Stacy Brooks that I should 25 call the police.
1597 1 Q Did you call the police? 2 A No. I called Mr. Rinder to advise him about what 3 Prince had said and to tell him that -- that it was -- that 4 I thought, under the circumstances, and based on advice 5 given to me, that it was appropriate to inform the Church of 6 Scientology that certain threats were made by Jesse Prince, 7 and that they should be aware of those. 8 Q Tell the specific threat, the specific thing that 9 Mr. Prince said to you that made you call your attorney and 10 Mr. Rinder. 11 A Well, this whole story about the guns, you know, 12 and how he started this by saying, "You know, Bob, you've 13 become a Scientologist. I'm not going to let you go down 14 this road. I've been down this road before. These people 15 are going to destroy you. You know, they'll never let go of 16 you. And I'll never let that happen to you. And I'm going 17 to do anything in my power to stop you." 18 And then he goes into this story about how he 19 pulled these guns on the other Scientologists, namely David 20 Miscavige, Mike Rinder and a few others. I think Norman 21 Starkey was mentioned, and some other -- you know, some 22 other names I wasn't familiar with. And how he went in -- 23 how, after he had been busted or something, he went back to 24 his room and got an AK-47 and a .45 caliber pistol. And he 25 said that he went walking in there with an AK-47 on his --
1598 1 one of his hips -- I don't remember which one -- the gun -- 2 the pistol in the other hand, and pointed it at these 3 people. 4 THE COURT: You'd heard this story before 5 several times, hadn't you? 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q And how Mr. Miscavige laughed at him when he did 8 this? 9 THE COURT: No, Counsel. Just a second. 10 This was not a new revelation to you. This is 11 one of Jesse's stories that he tells, right? 12 THE WITNESS: It's a story that he's told 13 before, but you know, I've only seen him write about 14 it. He has written about it on the Internet. But 15 this was different. Because this was -- you know, 16 Jesse Prince was angry at me. He was talking about 17 wanting to get in Mike Rinder's face. And he goes 18 into this story about the guns. 19 THE COURT: So he actually goes into the whole 20 story about the gun? 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, he told the whole thing. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. This was -- this was the 24 first time, I believe, that he ever related that 25 whole story to me.
1599 1 But he didn't -- he didn't -- you know, this 2 wasn't Uncle Remus here telling a story. This was 3 Jesse Prince, you know, angry at me, angry at 4 Scientology, saying I'm a Scientologist, that he's 5 not going to allow me to go down this road. And you 6 know, I took it as a serious threat. That's -- I 7 mean, I wouldn't have called my attorney if I hadn't 8 have thought this was a serious threat. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q You call your attorney on your cell phone? 11 A Or Stacy's cell phone. I'm not -- her reception 12 is a lot better. Probably hers, because she has his number 13 programmed in. 14 Q Isn't it true that Jesse Prince was really upset 15 with you that night because he told you that you were lying 16 for Scientology, and he wasn't going to lie for Scientology? 17 A He never said anything like that. 18 Q Okay. 19 A You know, Stacy and I -- Stacy and I told Jesse 20 the simplicity of what's going on here is that we are going 21 to have to tell the truth about what has happened in this 22 case. That's what we were doing. You know -- and this goes 23 back to that meeting at the Adams Mark Hotel. And we never 24 told him anything different than that. 25 Q Okay. So what did Mr. Rinder tell you, when you
1600 1 called him up and told him these -- how alarmed you were at 2 the words of Jesse Prince? 3 A He -- something to the effect, "Okay. We'll take 4 notice," whatever that means -- 5 Q Okay. 6 A -- you know -- and -- and you know, I asked him 7 about calling the Clearwater police. I said, you know, 8 "This is what I think I ought to do." He said, "I wouldn't 9 waste my time, because they're not going to do anything," 10 you know. 11 Q At this point in time, did you believe that 12 whatever relationship you had with Jesse Prince was over? 13 A Yes, I did. You know, I told him, you know, after 14 his profanity and everything -- which I had asked him to 15 quiet down a number of times, because of this mother and her 16 child was at the next table to us, you know. And after what 17 he said, you know, I told him I didn't want to see him 18 anymore, you know, and please turn around and get out of 19 this hotel. 20 Q But Jesse Prince wasn't threatening you with 21 bodily harm. He said he wanted to protect you, didn't he? 22 A No. He was threatening me, as far as I could see, 23 with bodily harm. He was saying also, "I'm going to protect 24 you, and I'm not going to let you go down this road." 25 Whatever that meant. You'll have to ask Jesse Prince.
1601 1 Q All right. So what else did Mr. Rinder tell you 2 that night after you told him about Jesse? 3 A That was it. 4 Q Set up another meeting? 5 A I don't think -- I don't think anything else other 6 than this Jesse Prince matter was discussed. 7 Q Request any more documents? 8 A No. 9 Q All right. What's the next time you had any 10 contact with anyone from Scientology -- 11 THE COURT: That's a good stopping point. I 12 see Judge Keane is in the courtroom. 13 MR. KEANE: I don't think I merit that moniker. 14 THE COURT: Well, we weren't sure whether that 15 would be a compliment or not. 16 THE WITNESS: Oh, that's Judge Keane. 17 THE COURT: That's Judge Keane. Mr. Minton 18 thought you were Judge Keane -- 19 MR. KEANE: Yes. 20 THE COURT: -- so we have had a little fun with 21 that. 22 In any event, Mr. Moxon had mentioned that 23 Mr. Keane might be coming over. He's here. Let's 24 stop for just a minute and see what we need to do. 25 Do you have the other box of documents?
1602 1 MR. KEANE: Yes. I received a second box -- 2 THE COURT: Not documents. Some sort of tapes 3 or something? 4 MR. KEANE: Tapes. 5 I'm advised that Mr. Bunker will be arriving in 6 my offices tomorrow armed with a machine that will 7 enable us to watch any kind of tape that we have in 8 hand, digital or -- we've got VHS stuff. 9 THE COURT: How many hours do you suppose -- I 10 don't know what this is going to take. 11 You don't plan to sit there and watch these, do 12 you? 13 MR. KEANE: No. What -- the procedure that we 14 suggest is that it be set up in my office. Tom 15 McGowan is going to come over. They think that 16 Mr. Bunker can at least identify what these tapes 17 are pretty quickly. And they will look at those and 18 set aside the ones that they simply have no 19 objection to releasing to the other side, at which 20 time that will happen. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I don't know who the 22 other side is. I don't know who's on what side 23 anymore, so -- 24 MR. KEANE: Yeah. Right. That's -- it would 25 be released from witness Bunker to the defendant in
1603 1 this case. 2 MR. MOXON: To either side, actually. 3 MR. KEANE: Or either side. 4 THE COURT: So -- so Mr. Bunker is going to 5 review the tapes with Mr. McGowan. 6 MR. KEANE: I'm going to have a paralegal sit 7 with them, and I'll be in and out -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. KEANE: -- making sure that everything's 10 running smoothly. 11 THE COURT: And Mr. McGowan will be there as 12 the attorney for the now defunct LMT, is that right? 13 MR. KEANE: And as the attorney for Mr. Bunker. 14 He's representing Mr. Bunker on this issue. 15 THE COURT: That's right. 16 Okay. And any tape that has to do with -- 17 What is he going to release? 18 MR. KEANE: If -- if -- if they believe -- if 19 he has no objection to it, regardless of what the 20 subject is, they'll be set aside for release. If 21 they determine that a tape, for whatever reason, 22 contains objectionable material that they don't want 23 produced, we'll prepare a synopsis as to that tape 24 that your Honor can consider as to whether they 25 ultimately should be released or not. And I'm
1604 1 talking about one short paragraph. "This tape is 2 such and such a tape, and contains, you know, the 3 following subject matter and information." 4 And then I -- if there has to be more viewing 5 from that to make a determination, so be it. But I 6 think that on some of it, it will fit in the -- in 7 the category of no tendency to lead to the discovery 8 of relevant evidence, and things can be discounted. 9 Or it may be some manner of privilege or work 10 product. They'll identify privileges. And that way 11 we'll get through them in short order. 12 And then if anybody wants copies of them, we 13 can get them made and we can go from there. 14 And I'm -- I'm told that the review of these 15 things won't require a realtime, you know, review of 16 every single tape. That will take days. That, more 17 or less, Mr. Bunker can look at them and figure out 18 pretty quickly from his memory what the tape shows 19 and whether or not it needs to be held up for 20 production. 21 THE COURT: I'm not sure that complies with the 22 orders. The orders state that the -- is my 23 recollection -- the orders state that the tapes that 24 are to be released are any witnesses who have been 25 listed on either witness list. And I suspect that
1605 1 that could be made available -- 2 MR. KEANE: We have a -- 3 THE COURT: Is that -- 4 MR. KEANE: We have a distilled witness list 5 that we've been using, that was provided in the 6 course of the other work we've been doing, and have 7 been used to form the search words and so forth of 8 the electronic data and of the hard copies of 9 information. 10 THE COURT: Are you planning on doing a little 11 synopsis of each tape, and what it is, as part of an 12 inventory, like? 13 MR. KEANE: If you need us to do that, we'll do 14 it. 15 THE COURT: I want that done, and I want to see 16 it. And I'll decide what gets released. 17 MR. KEANE: All right. 18 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, may I address that? 19 THE COURT: Sure. 20 MR. MOXON: The order -- 21 THE COURT: Surely you don't have an objection 22 to my taking a look at this. 23 MR. MOXON: No. Of course not. 24 THE COURT: Well, then, what would you need to 25 address?
1606 1 MR. MOXON: I'd like to address two things. 2 One -- first is the scope -- the scope, of 3 course, is statements by anyone who, you know, was 4 identified or could be a witness in this case, and 5 statements concerning Scientology. 'Cause you've 6 seen, from -- 7 THE COURT: I am not interested in statements 8 concerning Scientology, of people who are not 9 potential witnesses in this case. 10 MR. MOXON: I'm not either. 11 THE COURT: Plain and simple. 12 MR. MOXON: Yeah. I'm not either. 13 THE COURT: So that is not the scope of the 14 orders. And if it is, then I am going to disregard 15 those orders and write my own order. Those tapes do 16 not need to be looked at, released or discussed 17 unless they have to do with something pertaining to 18 this case. 19 MR. MOXON: I agree. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. MOXON: Now, of course there are a lot 22 of -- there are a lot of people that have made 23 statements as to these tapes, that are witnesses 24 both in these proceedings and for the -- for the 25 two -- both the case and the counterclaim. And my
1607 1 interest, obviously, now is to see if we can get 2 some of those for the hearings that are -- that are 3 pending right now. 4 In any event, notwithstanding the orders 5 themselves, as I understand it from Mr. Keane and 6 Mr. McGowan, Mr. Bunker has consented to allow these 7 tapes to be reviewed. So we -- we have an issue of 8 consent now where we can see these tapes, except the 9 ones that he's going to not consent to. 10 So the ones that are -- 11 THE COURT: To be very candid with you, this is 12 all very unusual. We have witnesses here who are at 13 least purported by the plaintiff to be -- having 14 been extorted by the church. That is the allegation 15 that is made by Mr. Dandar; that the Church of 16 Scientology have extorted Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks 17 to tell lies now to get this case dismissed and/or 18 to get Mr. Dandar removed from this case. The 19 Church of Scientology says that the -- Mr. Dandar 20 has committed perjury and has suborned perjury of 21 two people: Principally, Mr. Minton, and in some 22 small amount Ms. Brooks. Mostly Mr. Minton. 23 Now, one of those parties is being represented 24 by Mr. McGowan. And now Mr. McGowan represents 25 purportedly, I guess, LMT, and interestingly enough,
1608 1 Mr. Bunker. And those people, who appear to all 2 somehow now be aligned, are going to make some 3 decision on what's released. 4 It isn't going to happen. 5 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, you know, these 6 allegations that Mr. Dandar makes -- I just want to 7 emphasize, the allegations -- there's no evidence of 8 any extortion. There's no testimony of any 9 extortion. 10 THE COURT: Counselor, we're not done yet. 11 We're on your case. I presume that he will have his 12 opportunity to present his when it comes. 13 MR. MOXON: Okay. Well, that's fine. 14 Well, we can -- obviously, whatever's on these 15 tapes is on these tapes, and it's going to be some 16 evidence. We want to get to the truth here and we 17 want to be able to show from evidence that we can 18 hopefully acquire from these tapes and materials 19 that have been ordered to be produced over the last 20 two years -- 21 THE COURT: Counselor, let me make this as 22 clear as I can. I will decide what of those tapes 23 are to be released. 24 At this point in time, I find the -- the 25 parties all seem to be on the same side. I heard
1609 1 Mr. Minton sit here and say that he had a great deal 2 of concern that people who had come to LMT, who were 3 at the moment either Scientologists or were 4 ex-Scientologists, the church didn't necessarily 5 know had come to LMT; he said he would protect their 6 confidentiality, would continue to protect their 7 confidentiality, and apparently had some fear of the 8 Church of Scientology finding out who those people 9 were. 10 Did I not hear that? 11 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: And you still -- 13 THE WITNESS: That's what I testified. I 14 still -- 15 THE COURT: -- have that -- 16 THE WITNESS: I still believe that they need to 17 be protected. 18 THE COURT: And consequently, based on that, 19 they all -- they are not all going to be turned over 20 to Church of Scientology. Consequently, you make a 21 log; you give that log to me. I will decide what 22 tapes are released. I'm not going to let 23 Mr. Bunker, who's now represented by the same lawyer 24 who's representing Ms. Brooks and LMT, make that 25 decision. Just that simple.
1610 1 Mr. Keane? You understand what I want? 2 MR. KEANE: Understood. Clear as a bell. 3 THE COURT: Thank you. 4 MR. MOXON: Your Honor -- just for point of 5 clarification, your Honor, I understood what 6 Mr. Minton was talking about was -- was something in 7 writing and some CDs that he had sent. These are 8 videotapes. 9 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon, I understand what he was 10 talking about too. 11 Please sit down and let's move on. 12 Thank you, Mr. Keane. 13 And you have that ready -- if you will maintain 14 those tapes in your possession until I decide and 15 tell you which of those tapes are to be turned over 16 to either side in this particular case. That means 17 they are not to be released to Mr. Dandar; they are 18 not to be released to Mr. Moxon or any of the 19 lawyers on either side; they are not to be released 20 to Ms. Brooks, Mr. Minton or Mr. Bunker. As far as 21 I'm concerned, those tapes are in my possession and 22 I have given them to you until I decide what happens 23 to them, past this. You are to maintain them in 24 your possession. Understood -- 25 MR. KEANE: I understand.
1611 1 THE COURT: -- Judge Keane? 2 MR. KEANE: I do. 3 MR. DANDAR: Judge, does that mean that no one 4 from the Church of Scientology can assist in 5 reviewing these tapes? 6 THE COURT: That is right. 7 MR. DANDAR: And we would point out -- 8 THE COURT: Well, or anybody else. 9 MR. DANDAR: Well, Mr. Bunker. 10 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Bunker apparently is the 11 person who made these tapes -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Right. 13 THE COURT: -- and I presume that he is the 14 person who is purporting to have some proprietary 15 interest. Although interestingly enough, he doesn't 16 claim that anymore. So that in and of itself is of 17 some concern to me, after I heard Mr. Merrett come 18 in here and announce on the record all of this 19 interest that Mr. Bunker was claiming as to why no 20 one should see these tapes. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 22 THE COURT: So now apparently that's changed. 23 As I said, this is all rather confusing to me. 24 MR. MOXON: Those -- 25 THE COURT: So I'm going to make this decision.
1612 1 MR. MOXON: Those, of course, are Mr. Merrett's 2 allegations. And as I understand it, Mr. Bunker is 3 going to review them to see what is private and what 4 is not. And we don't want anything that is private. 5 We don't care about that. We only want, you know, 6 statements of people that are actually in interest 7 and right here in the case, just -- 8 THE COURT: That's all I care about too. So 9 we're on the same page, and this will not be a 10 problem. 11 Thank you. 12 Thank you, Mr. Keane. 13 MR. KEANE: Okay. 14 THE COURT: Continue. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Okay. So are we finished with April 14th, after 17 your phone call to Mr. Rinder and Mr. Jonas? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Did you talk to anybody else reference to 20 Scientology matters? 21 A I don't think so. 22 Q All right. Let's go to the next day, Monday the 23 15th. 24 A Now, I don't have any meetings noted, but I 25 believe that's the date that we met at Mr. Pope's office
1613 1 with Mr. McGowan and Mr. Fugate. But I'm not sure. There 2 was a meeting, I think, that -- 3 Q There's a letter that says -- that's dated the 4 15th. And they provided you and Ms. Brooks documents. 5 A That's right. 6 Q All right. So that -- so we already went over 7 that with Ms. Brooks. 8 Is there anything you want to add to the fact that 9 you got a set of documents and she got a set of documents? 10 A Yes. The set of documents that I got was not 11 marked. I sat there at the table and went through those 12 documents and marked them. And I asked that -- that the 13 package that was going to be sent to Mr. Howie or -- I 14 think -- it might have been given to Mr. McGowan. I'm not 15 sure -- you know, there were so many of these things. But I 16 believe they -- in fact, I think they sent them by courier 17 to Mr. Howie that day, before 5, before his office closed, 18 so that -- 19 I mean, they had to get somebody to go mark these 20 things -- 21 Q Oh, so you -- 22 A -- give him a marked copy. 23 Q You gave them back? 24 A No. I kept the copy that I got and went through 25 it while Ms. Brooks and Mr. McGowan were going through their
1614 1 set with Mr. Fugate, I think. Well, the three of them were 2 down at one end of the conference table. Mr. Rinder and I 3 were up at the other end of the conference table. 4 And so I started going through mine and, you know, 5 reading them and marking them. And you know, I didn't 6 finish by the time they were ready to go. But then I guess 7 it was -- 8 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I -- I was mentally 9 somewhere else. 10 Who all was at this meeting? This was in 11 Mr. Pope's office -- on the 16th? 12 THE WITNESS: Right -- 15th. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Rinder -- 14 THE WITNESS: 15th. 15 THE COURT: 15th. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 THE COURT: 15th. I'm sorry. August 15th. 18 You were there, Ms. Brooks was there, 19 Mr. Rinder was there -- 20 THE WITNESS: Mr. McGowan was there. 21 THE COURT: Mr. McGowan was there. 22 THE WITNESS: And Mr. Fugate. I don't know 23 whether you already said his name, but -- 24 THE COURT: I did not. 25 And Mr. Fugate.
1615 1 You did not have counsel. 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 THE COURT: Okay. And you indicated that -- 4 that your documents were not marked, and you and 5 Mr. Rinder were sitting on one end of the table 6 looking at documents? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, no. Mr. Rinder was on the 8 other side of the table. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: I was on one side of the table. 11 You know, it's a big conference table in the 12 office. It must be six feet wide. 13 THE COURT: One of those lawyers' conference 14 tables? 15 THE WITNESS: The kind they do depositions at. 16 THE COURT: Probably the kind they do real 17 estate closings and stuff like that. 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 19 THE COURT: Big. 20 THE WITNESS: I think it was a glass-topped 21 table. You know, it was -- I think. 22 THE COURT: Okay. And then Mr. -- Mr. McGowan 23 and Ms. Brooks were together? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. They were going through the 25 documents that were given to her. And you know, I
1616 1 went through the documents that were given to me and 2 started marking them. And you know, I saw that 3 Mr. McGowan had a marked set, tabbed and marked. 4 You know, I could see by them flipping through it. 5 And you know, for some reason, they didn't bring 6 enough copies, and so I asked Mr. Rinder if he could 7 be sure and give a marked and tabbed set to 8 Mr. Howie. 9 THE COURT: Mr. Howie was not there at that 10 time? 11 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 12 But there was some -- I don't remember -- there 13 was some letter that was signed and -- you know, I 14 don't -- I don't remember what it was all about. 15 But you know, they were -- oh, they had a cover 16 letter that was going to go with these documents to 17 Mr. Howie. I think Mr. Howie had already signed 18 something that related -- 19 You know, I just don't remember, your Honor. 20 It was just a bunch of jumbo going on down at the 21 other end of the room, and I don't know what -- what 22 it was, or -- 23 THE COURT: And Mr. Fugate was doing what at 24 this meeting? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, before -- before the
1617 1 meeting started, Mr. Fugate and Mr. McGowan went 2 over these letters that -- that Mr. Fugate was 3 giving to Mr. McGowan and to Mr. Howie. And you 4 know, Mr. McGowan was dealing with that, you know. 5 And I believe the -- the letter that went to 6 Mr. Howie was ultimately sent by messenger down to 7 Mr. Howie's office, together with a tabbed set of 8 documents, tabbed and marked set of documents, which 9 were the same documents that I had that were not 10 marked. And -- 11 Or maybe -- 12 I don't know. You know -- 13 In any case, I -- what I did is, you know, by 14 this time, I had -- 15 THE COURT: Wait a second. Let me see if I 16 have it. 17 Mr. Fugate gave a letter -- cover letter and a 18 tabbed set of depositions to Mr. McGowan and had a 19 tabbed set and a cover letter to go to Mr. Howie. 20 Is that what -- 21 THE WITNESS: Well, they didn't have one for -- 22 they didn't have a tabbed one for Mr. Howie, and 23 marked. 24 THE COURT: But you asked him to get one. 25 THE WITNESS: Right. And I think they brought
1618 1 it back. 2 And I remember going -- I remember marking each 3 document number -- well, you know, I just started at 4 the top. And in the first document, you know, I 5 just labeled number 1, and then through 27 or 6 something, or 33. I don't remember how many 7 different documents there were. 8 And then there was a -- you know, that -- Stacy 9 Brooks' set of documents were different documents. 10 They weren't the same documents that I had. 11 Although there were some things in mine that were 12 for Stacy Brooks that didn't belong in mine. But I 13 kept them intact. 14 And I went through these -- once they brought 15 back this tabbed set, I -- you know, I numbered 16 those the same as I had numbered my unmarked set. 17 THE COURT: Go ahead. I'm sorry. I was -- 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q How long did you have to wait for the tabbed set 20 to be brought to you at Mr. Pope's office? 21 A It didn't take very long. You know, when I say 22 that, you know, I'm going through my set anyway, you know. 23 And as I recall, this took like three hours or something 24 like that. So before that was finished, they came back. 25 Q When was this meeting set up?
1619 1 A I don't -- I don't remember. 2 Q When did you find out that you had to be at 3 Mr. Pope's office on April 15th? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Did you know about it on April 14th, when you had 6 dinner with Jesse Prince? 7 A I don't know whether I did or not. I presume I 8 did. I mean, you know, Mr. Fugate obviously made plans to 9 be there. You know, Mr. -- Stacy Brooks had obviously 10 gotten Mr. McGowan to be there. I don't remember having 11 anything to do with setting up that meeting at that time. 12 Q When you got into the office there of Mr. Pope, 13 did you know that somebody was -- from the Church of 14 Scientology was going to deliver you and Ms. Brooks two 15 stacks of documents? 16 A I don't remember whether I knew. I -- I don't 17 know. 18 Q Did you request the Church of Scientology to bring 19 you anything for you to read so you could refresh your 20 memory about all your lies that you told? 21 A What these documents were -- the -- the set of 22 documents that were given to me related, I believe, 23 exclusively to one of the three areas, except for those 24 miscellaneous ones that were for Stacy Brooks -- that were 25 for Stacy Brooks that were in my set, that didn't belong
1620 1 there. 2 Q Well -- 3 A What's -- 4 Q -- let's just talk about the check of May, 2000. 5 THE COURT: Well, I want to talk about -- what 6 was the one area that the documents were given to 7 you? 8 THE WITNESS: The secret agreement, I believe, 9 your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. 11 THE WITNESS: Because that was the -- the one 12 area that I hadn't been asked about in that April 9 13 thing. So there was already testimony about the 14 checks and about the meeting to add parties. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q And as of April 15th, you had not filed any 17 affidavits, is that correct? 18 A That's correct. I believe I filed mine on the 19 17th, that first recantation affidavit. 20 Q Okay. Well, now you show up at Mr. Pope's office, 21 and you have no idea these documents were going to be 22 delivered to you. 23 A No. I didn't say I didn't have any idea. I don't 24 remember whether I knew I was going to get them or not going 25 to get them. You know, I don't remember.
1621 1 Q Okay. Now -- 2 A You know, these were -- you know, these other 3 documents had been, you know, laid out on the table before 4 the -- the three sets of documents; you know, the three 5 stacks concerning the three different areas. This -- 6 this -- which we didn't take. You know, we didn't walk away 7 with them. This set of documents were for us to be able to 8 walk away with. 9 Q Prior to this meeting of April 15th, the only 10 documents you had ever received from the Church of 11 Scientology in the year 2002 were the -- Judge Schaeffer's 12 March, 2002 transcripts talking about Jesse Prince. 13 THE COURT: Was that 2002? 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Of March? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Part of -- it was at the end 17 of one of our Frye hearings on cockroaches. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Is that the only thing that you ever -- that 20 you -- 21 A We walked away with from any meetings? 22 Q Or you were delivered to your hotel room. 23 A I believe that's right. 24 Q Yeah. Okay. 25 Now, Mr. Minton, for the three areas that you told
1622 1 Mr. Rinder, back on April 6th, you lied about in the Lisa 2 McPherson case, did you really need to go over and refresh 3 your memory how many times you lied about these three areas? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Why? 6 A Because there was -- you know -- first of all, all 7 I remembered was, you know, having said in a -- in a 8 deposition, you know -- I didn't know what deposition, what 9 date; you know, I didn't remember what the date of the 10 affidavit that I signed was, you know. So yes. I mean, 11 these documents were important. And we had no -- we had no 12 other way to get them, really. 13 Q So the affidavit that you signed, that Mr. Merrett 14 testified to, he typed up and sent to you, about my office, 15 you didn't have a copy of that? 16 A I might have had a copy of it in New Hampshire or 17 something -- 18 Q Oh -- 19 A -- but I don't think so. 20 Q -- all right. 21 Now, is it correct that you did not request 22 anybody to bring you documents to Mr. Pope's office on 23 April 15th? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. I think 25 he said that he didn't remember one way or the
1623 1 other. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 3 MR. WEINBERG: So that -- and you can't beat 4 this horse. 5 THE COURT: I know. 6 I'm going to sustain it. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: I don't know if he has or he 9 hasn't. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. 11 THE WITNESS: I mean, can I -- 12 THE COURT: If you remember, it must have been. 13 THE WITNESS: Can I just -- 14 Oh, never mind. 15 THE COURT: No, you cannot. The lawyer who put 16 you on the stand has objected and I sustained it. 17 That means that's done. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q So after the three hours or so of you reviewing 21 these documents, what happened? 22 A We took them away. 23 Q All right. You took them back to your hotel? 24 And did you continue to look at them? 25 A Yes.
1624 1 THE COURT: And by the way -- I guess I do need 2 to know this -- 3 Who is -- I mean, Mr. Fugate did put him on the 4 stand. I mean, we really only need one lawyer 5 objecting. It's going to be you, Mr. Weinberg, or 6 it's going to be you, Mr. Fugate. And I'm not going 7 to have both of you objecting; occasionally 8 Mr. Moxon standing up -- 9 What's happening here? 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, A, the hearing, I think, 11 was meant to have both Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton get 12 on the stand so the court could evaluate their 13 company. But B -- 14 THE COURT: This is a simple question. Who's 15 going to do the objecting? I want it to be one 16 person or the other. 17 MR. FUGATE: It is generally me unless I'm 18 getting documents together, when I've asked for 19 Mr. Weinberg to -- 20 THE COURT: Okay. Then you make the 21 objections. And if you're out of the room or out of 22 your seat, Mr. Weinberg, you make it. I don't want 23 to hear from both of you. 24 MR. WEINBERG: That's fair. 25 THE COURT: Or more than one.
1625 1 MR. WEINBERG: That's fair. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Lirot hasn't done that yet, so 3 I'm -- the same applies for the other side too. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q So what is -- what is the next time you had any 6 contact with the Church of Scientology after you left 7 Mr. Pope's office on April 15th? 8 A I'm not sure. 9 Q What conversation did you have with Mr. Rinder at 10 Mr. Pope's office on April 15th while you're looking through 11 all of your -- your testimony? 12 A You know, there -- you can't really read and mark 13 things and have a conversation. It was -- you know, 14 Mr. Rinder was just kind of sitting there. He'd go in and 15 out of the room. You know, there wasn't -- you know, I'm 16 trying to read these documents and mark them. And you know, 17 there wasn't the opportunity -- I -- 18 THE COURT: If the answer is that you can't 19 remember or there wasn't anything, just say so. If 20 there was some, I want to hear about the 21 conversation, not why you can't tell us why there 22 isn't any. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 24 A I don't think there was any discussion of -- 25
1626 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Did Mr. Rinder hand you documents at that meeting 3 like he did on the prior, April 13th? 4 A Other than this stack, no. 5 Q Okay. Did you go into detail about why things 6 were untrue in your testimony, with Mr. Rinder on 7 April 15th? 8 A No. 9 Q Did Mr. Rinder suggest to you on April 15th that 10 you testified falsely, and you said, "No, I didn't. That 11 was true," or words to that effect? 12 A No. We didn't have any conversation -- 13 Q Okay. 14 A -- about these things. 15 Q All right. 16 A It was just me marking these documents and going 17 through them. 18 Q All right. So what happened -- when was the next 19 time you had any contact with the Church of Scientology? 20 THE COURT: Are we done now with the 15th? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Well, now we're on the 22 evening of the 15th. I want to make sure there's 23 nothing going on there. 24 A You know, I don't know whether we had any talks or 25 meetings that night or not.
1627 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. What about the 16th? 3 A You know, I -- I didn't -- I don't know whether we 4 had any meetings or not. 5 Q All right. Let's go from the 15th to the 19th, 6 when we have a hearing before Judge Baird that was supposed 7 to be one hour, from 4 to 5, and it turned out to be from 8 1:30 to 8:30 at night. So -- 9 A Well, the -- the 17th -- the 17th, you know, I 10 spent some considerable time at Mr. Howie's office -- 11 Or maybe that was the 16th. I can't remember. 12 THE COURT: Do you have that little book of 13 yours up there that you made some notes in? Go to 14 it and give us the best you can. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, that's what I'm trying to 16 do, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 18 THE WITNESS: Because as I said, I didn't get 19 this thing until May 15th. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: So I was just trying to go by 22 memory here. 23 A But either the 16th or the 17th, we spent -- Stacy 24 and I spent a considerable amount of time at Mr. Howie's 25 office. I believe Stacy was at Mr. McGowan's office some of
1628 1 that time. And -- 2 THE COURT: You got your little book on the 3 15th. Do you have it there? Can you look at it? 4 Is it the 15th, the 16th or the 17th? 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I've got the book, 6 but it -- 7 MR. DANDAR: It's not marked. 8 THE WITNESS: It's not marked -- 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: Because I started doing this on 11 the 15th of May. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Well -- 14 A So -- 15 THE COURT: Oh, this is the 15th of April. I 16 was hoping, I guess, maybe, that it was the 15th of 17 May. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: We've got a whole month of 19 this. 20 THE COURT: I guess I just jumped ahead a 21 month. 22 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. No. I meant 23 to -- 24 THE COURT: I know -- okay. I was thinking 25 this was the 15th of May.
1629 1 THE WITNESS: No. Sorry. 2 THE COURT: I know it's the 15th of April. I 3 think my mind was just hoping against hope that it 4 was May. 5 MR. WEINBERG: It's actually the 29th of May 6 now. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Go ahead. 9 A So we -- you know, my purpose of being with 10 Mr. Howie was to do my recantation affidavit, that -- the 11 short one that Mr. Howie wanted to get done as quickly as 12 possible. 13 Q Is this the first time you met with Mr. Howie 14 since your testimony before Judge Baird on April the 9th? 15 A No, no. 16 Q Okay. When did you meet with Mr. Howie between 17 the 16th of April and the 9th of April? 18 A Between the 9th and the 16th? 19 Q Right. 20 A I don't -- I don't know. 21 THE COURT: It -- you're -- it's either the 22 15th or the 16th that you met with Mr. Howie. Is 23 that the one that you're not sure of the date? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was either the -- no. 25 Sorry. Either the 16th or the 17th.
1630 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: 'Cause the recantation affidavit 3 was dated the 17th, and so it was either that day or 4 the day before that we went through this. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q And that's your first one. That's your first 7 affidavit -- 8 A Yes. 9 Q -- of recantation. 10 A Yes. 11 Q And who told you that you had to do an affidavit, 12 since you already testified on April the 9th? 13 MR. HOWIE: Objection to the extent it calls 14 for privilege. 15 THE COURT: Sustained to the extent it calls 16 for a privilege. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Right. 19 Anyone other than Mr. Howie tell you to do a 20 recantation affidavit on the 17th of April, since you've 21 already testified before Judge Baird on April the 9th? 22 A No one other than the person you mentioned. 23 Q Okay. Did anyone assist you, other than the 24 person I mentioned, Mr. Howie -- 25 Well, did Mr. Howie -- yes or no -- assist you on
1631 1 that affidavit? 2 A We started with a clean piece of paper. 3 Q You didn't use your laptop? 4 A No. 5 Q Okay. So you wrote out your affidavit? 6 A No. 7 Q He took notes from your conversation? 8 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Again, this would touch 9 on privilege. 10 THE COURT: I don't think so. The question 11 was, "Did you take notes," not what the notes were. 12 Overruled. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q The clean piece of paper Mr. Howie was writing on? 15 A Correct. 16 Q Was anyone else in the room? 17 A I don't know whether Stacy Brooks was there part 18 of the time for that or not, because she was working on 19 something with Mr. McGowan at some state. 20 Mr. McGowan also came to Mr. Howie's office. 21 THE COURT: Was Mr. -- was Ms. Brooks ever in 22 your -- in Mr. Howie's office when you were in there 23 discussing this with Mr. Howie? 24 THE WITNESS: I believe she was. 25 THE COURT: To that extent, the privilege is
1632 1 waived, so you may ask about it. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q So what did you and Mr. Howie talk about in front 4 of Ms. Brooks, while you were trying to do your recantation 5 number one affidavit? 6 A Just going through these three main areas. 7 Q Did you have the tabbed indexed testimony that the 8 Church of Scientology provided you? 9 A Yes. Yes. We -- we each had a copy. 10 Q And the tabbed areas that the Church of 11 Scientology provided you, was there anything tabbed that you 12 disagreed with as being a lie? 13 A Well, Mr. Howie had the tabbed -- he -- he -- he 14 went through the documents as I went through them. 15 No, there wasn't anything that -- 16 You know, some of the documents were not used. 17 They weren't particularly relevant. 18 Q Was your -- your documents from the Church of 19 Scientology tabbed and highlighted or just tabbed? 20 A Mr. Howie's were tabbed and highlighted. Mine 21 were highlighted by me. 22 Q Okay. Who tabbed Mr. Howie's copy? 23 A I don't know. Whoever Mr. Rinder called to say to 24 bring him a copy. 25 Q All right. So someone from the Church of
1633 1 Scientology did. 2 A Yes. 3 Q All right. Was there anything tabbed on the set 4 that Mr. Howie had, that you did not use? 5 No. You already said that. 6 Was anything tabbed that Mr. Howie had, that you 7 said was not a lie; it was true? 8 A I don't remember. 9 Q Okay. 10 A You know, there were some things that weren't 11 useful you know, they didn't -- they weren't useful to 12 the -- what we were doing. 13 Q Okay. All right. Was there anyone there from the 14 Church of Scientology while you were preparing your 15 affidavit number 1? 16 A No. 17 Q Okay. And how long did it take you to do this 18 affidavit? 19 A Several hours. 20 Q Okay. And did you meet with -- 21 When's the next time you met with anyone from the 22 Church of Scientology? 23 THE COURT: I told Mr. Fugate that we could 24 stop at 12:15 for a conference call that he had 25 scheduled. It's 10 after. This would be a good
1634 1 time? We just finished the meeting in the lawyer's 2 office, did we? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 4 THE COURT: So let's stop now. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Yes. And it's 10 after. I've got 7 to make a few calls and do some things, so let's 8 just say 1:30, okay? We'll be in recess till 1:30. 9 (A recess was taken at 12:09 p.m.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1635 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 29th day of May, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25