1636 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 3 4 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 13 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 17 CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert Minton. 18 DATE: May 29, 2002. Afternoon Session. 19 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 20 St. Petersburg, Florida. 21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 22 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 23 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 24 25
1637 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 12 Organization. 13 MR. LEE FUGATE and 14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 17 18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 19 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 22 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor 23 New York, New York 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25
1638 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 3 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 4 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 5 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 6 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 7 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 8 Attorney for Robert Minton. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1639 1 THE COURT: Are we ready? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, your Honor. 3 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, if I may, I 4 understand -- Tom McGowan, for the record. 5 Something came up this morning over the 6 videotapes, what was given over to Mr. Keane. 7 THE COURT: Yes? 8 MR. McGOWAN: I just wanted to clarify 9 something on the record and explain to the Court 10 where we're coming from on this. 11 We understand -- obviously, because the tapes 12 were delivered so late in the game and we are trying 13 to rectify problems that have happened, Mr. Bunker 14 is flying down here -- Mr. Bunker certainly asserts 15 all of the privileges he has asserted. He can 16 physically look at these tapes, I'm told, play them 17 himself, and sort out what he's willing to give up 18 and what he wants to maintain the privilege on under 19 Mr. Keane's supervision, if that is agreeable to the 20 Court. 21 THE COURT: It is not agreeable to the Court. 22 I don't know what he wants to keep -- whether what 23 he wants to keep is something that should be turned 24 over, quite frankly. 25 MR. McGOWAN: I agree.
1640 1 THE COURT: So I'm not interested in what it is 2 he wants to do, and I'm not interested in what 3 either of the parties want. What I'm interested in 4 determining is if the parties are given what it is 5 that is relevant to this case, and they are going to 6 be given that whether Mr. Bunker wants it to be 7 given or not. 8 MR. McGOWAN: Absolutely. And I'm not 9 suggesting Mr. Bunker would adjudicate that issue. 10 But it may be that he knows at least what he thinks 11 is privileged. It may or may not be. He certainly 12 may -- 13 THE COURT: He certainly wouldn't know what is 14 privileged. He wouldn't know what is privileged. 15 So, I mean, all I want Mr. Bunker to do, if he's 16 willing to sit down and say -- I heard, for example, 17 true or not, he would know, but I heard Mr. Merrett 18 say there were tapes in there he made of his family. 19 MR. McGOWAN: Uh-huh. 20 THE COURT: All I need is to see, "This is a 21 tape of my family." That clearly is something that 22 he would give back to him, nobody would have an 23 interest in or anything of the sort. 24 If he were to say, "This tape is --" I don't 25 know, I could go on and on with examples, "I think
1641 1 this tape is privileged because it doesn't have 2 anything to do with this case," well, I wouldn't be 3 interested in what he thinks. 4 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. You would need to watch the 5 tape. 6 THE COURT: Yes. I just want him to say what 7 is on the tape. If he says, "This is a tape of 8 Mr. Dandar talking to Dell Liebreich and I think 9 that that is something that should be turned over," 10 well, I frankly wouldn't care. No, it couldn't. 11 That would probably be privileged. 12 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 13 THE COURT: Maybe not. If he were -- 14 MR. McGOWAN: I see what you mean. 15 THE COURT: In other words, I don't want him 16 making this decision. Mr. Keane certainly isn't in 17 a position where he's aware of all of the 18 intricacies of what we've been going through here 19 where he might not think something was relevant, I 20 might think it was -- 21 MR. McGOWAN: Absolutely. 22 THE COURT: -- because it might involve some 23 case in California, some witness in California. I 24 might say I think that is relevant and I want it 25 turned over.
1642 1 So what -- what -- on the other hand, it may be 2 something that he doesn't care a thing about, that 3 he's perfectly willing to turn over, that I may say 4 this really doesn't have anything to do with this 5 case and, consequently, it's not relevant. 6 Therefore, it's not to be turned over, and I'll give 7 it back to him. 8 Now, if it's his, once I make this decision, I 9 could care less what he does with them. I just -- 10 as guardian of these tapes, I'm the one who told 11 Mr. Merrett to go get them and deliver them to 12 court, and I'm the one that told you to deliver them 13 to the Court. 14 They are in my possession. I have turned them 15 over to Mr. Keane, and I'm going to make an initial 16 decision, after Mr. Keane does whatever it is he's 17 supposed to do, as to what tapes get turned over and 18 what tapes don't. 19 MR. McGOWAN: I guess then the guidance I'm 20 looking for, for Mr. Bunker, is if he comes down 21 here, is he able to watch the tapes and at least say 22 this is tape number one, it contains the following 23 things, one, two, three, four, five. 24 THE COURT: I don't even care what it contains, 25 just people.
1643 1 MR. McGOWAN: People, conversations -- 2 THE COURT: Conversations, or obviously if it 3 has -- if this has to do with the Lisa McPherson -- 4 this is a discussion about the Lisa McPherson case. 5 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 6 THE COURT: Something like that. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Right. Okay. I just -- 8 THE COURT: And if I'm in doubt, after I see 9 whatever law he puts together, then I may say I want 10 to see that myself. If I'm not in doubt, then I'll 11 say turn these over, don't turn these over. 12 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine. I just wanted to 13 make sure everybody is on the same page. 14 THE COURT: Isn't that kind of what I said this 15 morning? 16 MR. MOXON: I think so. 17 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine. 18 THE COURT: And that tape -- or that little 19 brief whatever it is that he makes up, is to come to 20 me initially. Obviously, that is something that 21 most likely will be something that is given to 22 either side after I make my decision so that they 23 can see if they would want to say, "I don't agree 24 with this and can you look at this one further" or 25 something like this.
1644 1 MR. McGOWAN: You mean the actual physical tape 2 itself? 3 THE COURT: I mean the little blip. In other 4 words, the little blip is to come to me initially. 5 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 6 THE COURT: All right? 7 MR. McGOWAN: Very good. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. 9 Continue. 10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 11 THE COURT: And the long and short of it is I 12 really don't want to hear any more about these. I 13 don't want to hear from somebody coming in here 14 saying this was private, and it's turned over, and I 15 don't want to see lawsuits coming out of it. I 16 don't want to hear much more about it, frankly. If 17 it has something to do with this, fine. If it 18 doesn't, I don't want to hear about it. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Mr. Minton, we're going to get back to the 21 meetings. I just wanted to ask you a question again about 22 Gerry Armstrong. 23 A Sure. 24 Q In addition to you giving Gerry Armstrong a UBS 25 check that was from your bank account to pay back your loan
1645 1 of $100,000, isn't it true you also gave him money -- 2 $100,000 to make a donation to the LMT? 3 A That is correct. 4 Q And was that also on a UBS check? 5 A It was a UBS check. 6 Q So when you testified on April 8 of 2002 in your 7 deposition with Mr. Rosen, that is the second area that you 8 did not tell the truth about? 9 A Mmm, that was one of the areas that I marked off 10 in this deposition. Yes. 11 Q All right. So both moneys to Mr. Armstrong? 12 A Correct. 13 Q In your deposition of April 8, you did not tell 14 the truth about that, correct? 15 A That is right. 16 THE COURT: Is this -- this is not the $100,000 17 used to pay back the loan. This is a second 18 $100,000? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q And were you ever planning on filing a recantation 23 affidavit about the Gerry Armstrong money now totalling 24 $200,000? 25 A Correct. I was.
1646 1 Q Have you given Mr. Armstrong more money? 2 A Mmm, I have. 3 Q How much? 4 A I don't remember the amount. 5 Q Was it also by way of UBS checks? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And did you tell him it was from anonymous sources 8 in Europe? 9 A No, I didn't. 10 Q Did you tell him it was from you? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And the loan repayment check, UBS, and the 13 donation LMT check from UBS, did you tell Mr. Armstrong that 14 was your money? 15 A Yes. I also told you with regards to the loan 16 repayment. 17 Q You told me? When? 18 A Well, sometime after Mr. Armstrong's deposition 19 where he said -- you sent me his deposition. And he said 20 that he had not repaid back that loan. 21 THE COURT: This is something else he's 22 forgotten to tell us, so just move on. 23 MR. DANDAR: All right. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Okay. We left off with your meeting with
1647 1 Mr. Howie and Ms. Brooks in Mr. Howie's office. 2 Did you get any calls from anyone related -- 3 associated with the Church of Scientology on April 17th? 4 A In Mr. Howie's office? 5 Q Yes. 6 A I'm in the wrong month. Oh, I don't recall. I 7 don't think so. 8 Q Did you -- 9 A I got calls from several people, but I don't think 10 anybody from Scientology called me. 11 Q All right. Did you sign your affidavit on 12 April 17th? 13 A I think that is the date. I can look at it here, 14 but I believe that is the date. 15 Q And so -- just to make sure, before we move on, no 16 one from the Church of Scientology had any input on how you 17 should write your affidavit? 18 A None whatsoever. 19 Q The first one? 20 A Yes. 21 Q All right. Except whatever they -- documents they 22 highlighted or tabbed that was delivered that Mr. -- that 23 Mr. Howie had? 24 A Well, that is correct, they did deliver those 25 documents. Yes.
1648 1 Q All right. And were the tabbed documents 2 delivered to Mr. Howie's office or to you while you were at 3 Mr. Pope's office on the 15th? 4 A To Mr. Howie's office. 5 Q Was it delivered to Mr. Howie's office on the 6 15th? 7 A If that is the date we were all there, which I 8 think it is, yes. 9 Q All right. Now, when is the -- well, let me ask 10 you this. Is there something that you wanted to put in your 11 recantation affidavit of April 17th that Ms. Brooks told you 12 not to put in? 13 A No. Not that I know of. 14 Q Well, as of April 17th, both Ms. Brooks -- well, 15 wait a minute. Was Mr. Howie present at your April 8th 16 deposition? 17 A I believe he was. 18 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q All right, so as of April 17th -- Ms. Brooks was 21 there, too? 22 A Yes, she was there as an LMT rep. 23 Q Was there any discussion about you putting in your 24 lies that you told on the April 8th, 2002 deposition in your 25 first recantation affidavit of April 17th?
1649 1 A No. I think Mr. Howie was awaiting the 2 transcript. 3 Q Well, isn't it true that after you told those lies 4 about Clambake and LMT's $500,000 wire transfer, and the two 5 $100,000 payments made by Mr. Armstrong, that Ms. Brooks 6 requested -- or demanded that you take a break? 7 A Mmm, well, I believe on the record one of the 8 attorneys said something about taking a break. 9 Q Your attorney? 10 A One of them. 11 Q Did Ms. Brooks tell you, during the break, in so 12 many words, "What are you doing? Why are you lying about 13 the money?" 14 A Mmm, I believe there was a discussion with 15 Mr. Jonas and myself. 16 Q Wasn't Ms. Brooks part of that discussion? 17 A I don't believe she was in the room. 18 Q Did you have another discussion with her about why 19 you lied in the April 8th deposition, during the break? 20 A Well, as I recall, Mr. Howie and Mr. Jonas and I 21 went into an adjoining conference room. One of the two of 22 them, I think, excluded Stacy Brooks from being in there. 23 And then, at some point, Mr. Howie went out of the room and 24 it was just Mr. Jonas and myself. 25 Q So your best memory is Ms. Brooks did not talk to
1650 1 you at all about your false testimony during the deposition 2 of April 8th? 3 A I don't recall it. 4 Q All right. Okay, from April 17th until you 5 testified at 1:30 -- the hearing beginning at 1:30 on 6 April 19th before Judge Baird, did you meet with anyone or 7 talk to anyone or get any documents from the Church of 8 Scientology? 9 A I don't know. I just don't know. I don't have 10 it -- have it noted here. I mean, there were a lot of 11 discussions and a lot of meetings, and pretty much from this 12 point -- well, going back to the 15th, from there on, you 13 know, all of these things are just basically fuzzy. 14 Q Well -- 15 A I mean, I remember some meetings, but I don't 16 remember any from the recantation affidavit until the 19th. 17 But, you know, I just never made a record of it. 18 Q Well, listen to this. All right? Your first 19 meeting was March 28th. Correct? 20 A Right. 21 Q Then we have one on the 29th? 22 A Right. 23 Q Then we have one on April 6th? 24 A Right. 25 Q You have your deposition on the 8th. That is not
1651 1 a meeting? 2 A Right. 3 Q You have your testimony on the 9th. That is not a 4 meeting? 5 A Right. 6 Q And then you don't meet with a representative of 7 the Church of Scientology until Saturday, the 13th, when you 8 met with Mr. Rinder. Correct? 9 A Well, that is right. Yes. I was out of town, and 10 came back on the 12th and 13th and had other meetings. 11 Q And then you met with Dr. Garko and Jesse Prince 12 on the 14th and just had a phone call to Mr. Rinder. So 13 that wasn't a meeting? 14 A Right. 15 Q Then on the 15th you had a meeting. Right? 16 A Yes. That is the one at Mr. Pope's office. 17 Right. 18 Q And then there are no other meetings then until 19 the 19th when you testified. And that is not a meeting. 20 Correct? 21 A Well, what I'm saying is I don't recall. I know 22 there wasn't a meeting on the 17th -- 23 Q There was not? 24 A Well, because I was at Mr. Howie's office. 25 Q Right.
1652 1 A So, you know, I don't know whether there were 2 meetings those days or not. I don't think so because I was 3 in Mr. Howie's office that day. 4 Q Well, the ones you have testified today so far 5 total five meetings. Do you recall on April 19th in front 6 of Judge Baird you said: "As of April 19th, I have met with 7 the Church of Scientology ten to twelve times or more"? 8 A I recall saying that. 9 Q So we only covered less than half. 10 A Well, that is the best I can do for you. 11 Q Up until April 19th, besides Mr. Rinder and 12 Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rosen, who else can you remember 13 meeting with from the Church of Scientology? 14 A Well, I -- I don't know whether it was just up to 15 the 19th or not. At some -- a couple of meetings Mr. Shaw 16 was there. 17 Q Is it after the 19th or before? 18 A I don't know, Mr. Dandar. I didn't make any 19 contemporaneous notes of the dates or who was at the 20 meetings. 21 Q Did you meet with anyone from the Church of 22 Scientology the morning of April 19th? 23 A I simply don't remember. 24 Q Okay. And do you remember meeting with them the 25 day before the hearing of April 19th?
1653 1 A You know, I -- I -- I would like to be able to 2 help you, but I don't remember. 3 Q Okay. 4 A You know, there were a lot of meetings. And as 5 far as I'm concerned, these meetings just sort of melded 6 together. 7 Q Who called the meetings? 8 A Sometimes I did. I think sometimes Mr. Rinder 9 did. 10 Q Well, why don't you explain to us why in the world 11 you would have to meet with anyone from the Church of 12 Scientology, after you met in Wally Pope's office on 13 April 15th and they delivered all of the documents to you 14 for you to look at to recant? 15 A Well, because the documents that were delivered on 16 that date only related to those three main areas. But as I 17 said, I already had the testimony from Judge Baird's court 18 for two of those areas. So what was delivered related to 19 the third area that wasn't covered in Judge Baird's case. 20 So, you know, as in some of these subsequent 21 meetings, you know, other things came out, you know, other 22 areas of testimony that needed to be corrected. 23 And, you know, we went through the same process 24 again. You know, they would listen. They would ask 25 questions. They would look for documents and subsequently,
1654 1 you know, show us those documents -- or show me those 2 documents. 3 Q So who would bring up the other areas, other than 4 the three areas that you originally covered on April 6th? 5 A I would. 6 Q And these are other areas where you allege that 7 you perjured yourself? 8 A That is right. Basically, that is right. 9 Q And are you saying that all of the perjury that 10 you allege to have committed in your depositions or 11 affidavit are all the result of me instructing you to lie 12 under oath? 13 A I don't believe I said all of them were. 14 Q Can you recall any perjury that you committed that 15 had nothing to do with me, besides Clambake and Gerry 16 Armstrong? 17 A I can't at this moment. 18 Q If we looked at your three affidavits that you 19 filed, would we find you admitting to be a perjurer under 20 oath that had nothing to do with me? 21 A I believe you would find that. Yes. 22 Q Are you stating that the three areas -- the 23 May 2000 check, the secret agreement, and the meeting about 24 David Miscavige, are there more than those three areas that 25 you allege I am responsible for?
1655 1 A You know, I -- I don't know, right off the top of 2 my head. 3 Q Well, I want you to think about that, and as we go 4 along, maybe you can jot some notes down. If it comes to 5 you, interrupt me. Okay? 6 A You want me to look at my affidavit? 7 Q Do you have it with you? 8 A I think it is in this pile. I don't know. 9 Q Why don't you go ahead and do that then. 10 THE COURT: While he's looking for his 11 affidavit, you know, when I handed out that order 12 the other day, I didn't think -- there are lawyers 13 who are of record. I said all counsel of record. I 14 just handed out -- but I know Mr. Titus, I think, is 15 not here, and -- 16 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Hanes is not here. But we are 17 forwarding whatever pleadings we get from 18 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Lirot, or any orders from the 19 Court -- 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. FUGATE: -- we are forwarding those to 22 them. 23 THE COURT: So if I give copies to the two 24 tables in here, I can assume that you will forward 25 to the lawyers who are not here. I believe
1656 1 Ms. Kobrin is also -- 2 MR. MOXON: She's my partner, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: So I don't have to mail it to those 4 people, is that true? 5 MR. MOXON: No. 6 MR. FUGATE: That is true. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks. 8 MR. DANDAR: I tell you what, let's do that at 9 a break. 10 THE COURT: What is her name? 11 MR. MOXON: Kobrin. Yes, anything you give to 12 me, she sees. 13 THE WITNESS: I think I have a copy in my 14 briefcase but there is not one here. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. Let's do that at a 16 break. 17 THE COURT: Basically, the areas -- at least as 18 I recall looking at your affidavit, the areas that 19 you say Mr. Dandar was involved in were the secret 20 agreement, the money, and the discussion that you 21 had where he indicated, "Let's not tell anybody 22 about this," or words to that effect? 23 THE WITNESS: And the three -- the three areas. 24 THE COURT: The three areas? 25 THE WITNESS: That is all that comes to mind
1657 1 right now. But, you know, I'll look over that. 2 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to put this onus on 3 you. If there are any other areas in your affidavit 4 that you are now saying that Mr. Dandar had 5 something to do with in that he told you not to tell 6 the truth about it or encouraged you to do anything 7 besides tell the truth, you let me know. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. You know, other than what 9 I said in my affidavit, I don't think there is 10 anything beyond that that was in the affidavit. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I want to be sure, 12 because as I remember, the initial discussion we 13 were talking about the things that had a bearing on 14 this case were three major things, and they are the 15 same three major things we talked about at the 16 beginning. 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 THE COURT: All three of those things you'd 19 indicated that Mr. Dandar had some complicity in? 20 THE WITNESS: Correct. 21 THE COURT: If there are other areas in your 22 affidavit -- there were some areas in your 23 affidavit, quite frankly, that were not of interest 24 to me. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1658 1 THE COURT: By that, I mean they might have 2 involved something else, whatever. 3 THE WITNESS: Right. 4 THE COURT: If there is anything that is in 5 there that you feel Mr. Dandar was responsible for 6 or a part of, then you will have to bring that to my 7 attention. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 THE COURT: I sure do not want to go, get 10 through this hearing and then have another hearing 11 on something somebody later remembers that 12 Mr. Dandar told somebody to lie about. I want to 13 know everything that Mr. Dandar is involved in, in 14 this hearing, as far as it is known. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean -- well, with regard 16 to that affidavit, you know, I'm confident that 17 those areas were covered and that there weren't any 18 other things that were in that affidavit that 19 related to Mr. Dandar unless it's stated so. I 20 believe it related to just those three main areas. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Now -- 24 THE WITNESS: You know -- I mean, your Honor, I 25 don't remember whether -- you know, I recounted it
1659 1 was covered in the affidavit. But, you know, the -- 2 you know, talking on the 28th or 29th and talking 3 about discussions that required me to come down and 4 talk about these two checks, you know, I don't know 5 whether I detailed that in the affidavit. I talked 6 about it in the affidavit and what Mr. Dandar told 7 me to concentrate on. But, you know, there were -- 8 there were more than one discussion about that, you 9 know, on the 29th and 30th. You know, I didn't 10 repeat each discussion, I don't think, you know. 11 But it was the same thing. It wasn't different 12 things. It was the same thing said a different day. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Since you talked to -- or had your lawyer talk to 16 Mr. Rosen and Mr. Pope in February of 2002 to discuss a 17 settlement of some kind, did the Church of Scientology know 18 in advance that you had caused to be issued a UBS check in 19 March of 2002 to me? 20 A Not that they've ever revealed to me, or implied, 21 or any other thing. 22 Q And if I asked you this before, again, I apologize 23 in advance. But in your meeting with Mr. Rosen in New York 24 City, didn't he mention RICO and money laundering? 25 A He mentioned RICO. As I described to you,
1660 1 concerning how much they had spent on a potential RICO suit. 2 He never brought the words "money laundering" up, to my 3 memory. 4 Q Were you present when Stacy Brooks testified to 5 money laundering being a subject in New York City? 6 A No, I wasn't. 7 Q I mean, in this hearing? 8 A I wasn't. 9 Q Have you ever paid anyone directly, either through 10 your checks, UBS checks or the LMT checks, to testify in the 11 Lisa McPherson case? 12 A No. 13 Q During your meetings with Mr. Rinder in 14 Clearwater, was it ever mentioned at all about RICO or money 15 laundering? 16 A No. Not a single time. 17 Q Was there ever a mention by Ben Shaw, his 18 subordinate, of money laundering or RICO? 19 A No. 20 THE COURT: A subordinate of RICO? 21 MR. DANDAR: A subordinate of Mr. Rinder's. 22 THE COURT: Okay. I think you forgot that. 23 MR. DANDAR: Sorry. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25
1661 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Have you ever agreed to -- either you or Stacy 3 Brooks -- to go to California to testify in the Wollersheim 4 case? 5 A I haven't. I don't know whether Stacy has. I 6 don't think she has. 7 Q Well, Mr. Rosen mentioned that in the transcript 8 of the determining sanctions hearing that he filed that you 9 and Ms. Brooks had agreed to come to California -- 10 THE COURT: No. No, he didn't. 11 MR. DANDAR: Something to that effect. I 12 didn't get that right. 13 THE COURT: Well, I got it right. 14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 15 THE COURT: And what he said was he had reason 16 to think that they might agree to come, but he had 17 to talk to her lawyer to see whether or not he would 18 agree to let her come. Whether I would release her, 19 in other words, when she was done. And, if not, 20 then he planned to use a transcript because 21 Mr. Armstrong was co-counsel here. 22 THE WITNESS: Mr. Leipold. 23 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Leipold was co-counsel. 24 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Leipold. 25 Mr. Armstrong, I guess, isn't a lawyer. So
1662 1 Mr. Leipold was co-counsel. 2 So he did not -- he said he hoped that she 3 would come. He hoped he would be able to present 4 her there. But he did not say for sure that she was 5 coming, I don't believe. I could be corrected if 6 I'm wrong. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, just to be sure and answer 9 the question, nobody ever asked me to go there. And 10 I didn't hear anybody ask Stacy Brooks to go there. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Okay. When is the first time that you talked to 13 anyone from the Church of Scientology about the counterclaim 14 filed in the Lisa McPherson death case? 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I was writing. What 16 was your question again, Counsel? 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q When is the first time you talked to anyone from 19 the Church of Scientology in 2002 about the counterclaim 20 filed in the Lisa McPherson case? 21 A I don't think we -- well, the first time it came 22 up was with Mr. Rosen with the preview copy. It wasn't 23 discussed, though. 24 Q Okay. Showing you as a defendant? 25 A Yes.
1663 1 Q All right. 2 A I'm just trying to remember whether -- 3 THE COURT: This was in New York on the -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, the first day. 5 THE COURT: This was a draft copy? 6 THE WITNESS: What they called a preview copy. 7 THE COURT: He didn't tell you it had already 8 been filed? 9 THE WITNESS: He didn't. 10 THE COURT: It had, hadn't it, a long time 11 before then? 12 MR. MOXON: The counterclaim wasn't changed, 13 your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Pardon me? 15 MR. MOXON: It added Mr. Minton's name. You 16 ordered it to be added. 17 THE COURT: But, I mean, a very similar -- the 18 counterclaim had been filed long before? 19 MR. MOXON: Yes. Long ago. 20 THE WITNESS: This was a motion to add me, the 21 preview copy, is what I meant. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: To add me individually. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25
1664 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. Now, you -- of course you do remember 3 testifying again before Judge Baird on April 19th? 4 A I remember being there. I don't -- I don't know 5 what you are asking me about. 6 Q Well, do you remember Mr. Lirot cross-examining 7 you on April 19th in front of Judge Baird? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And just to make sure, you don't remember if you 10 met with anyone from the Church of Scientology or not before 11 you were cross-examined by Mr. Lirot on April 19th, other 12 than the April 15th meeting? 13 A I don't. 14 Q Is it more likely that you met with 15 representatives of the Church of Scientology before you 16 appeared for testimony on April 19th? 17 A More likely than -- 18 Q Than not? 19 A -- than not? As I said, you know, I don't have a 20 record of any of the meetings during that time period. We 21 didn't take contemporaneous notes of these dates or who we 22 met with. It's possible, Mr. Dandar. I just don't 23 remember. 24 Q Mr. Minton, what is your -- is it your testimony 25 that I told you that I wanted you to hide only the May 2000
1665 1 check? 2 A No. 3 Q Okay, what is your testimony? 4 A That you wanted me to not disclose the May 2000 5 check and the March 2002 check. 6 Q So any of the checks in between you can disclose 7 all you want? 8 A We didn't discuss those. I mean, most of them had 9 already been presented as -- you know, or testified about in 10 depositions. You know, and the Church of Scientology got -- 11 you know, through the bank records, they got the $250,000 12 check from Bank of America, you know. There weren't any 13 other checks except for those two. 14 Q Your testimony is from May 2000 until the Bank of 15 America check in 2001, there weren't any other checks in 16 between? 17 A I don't think there were. I could look at my 18 list, but I don't think there were. 19 Q Do you recall, at the first board of directors 20 meeting of the Lisa McPherson Trust, that you said, "I'm 21 gifting $3 million to the Lisa McPherson Trust to operate 22 for three years. After that it's on its own"? 23 A No. In fact, I made a different statement than 24 that. 25 Q What was your statement, as you recall?
1666 1 A That I would provide $300,000 a year for three 2 years. 3 Q Do you think anything of your statement about what 4 you would provide the Lisa McPherson Trust is on videotape? 5 A Probably it is. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, I'm looking at these 7 checks of yours, because I wasn't sure myself. 8 The first UBS check is dated May 1, 2000. The 9 next UBS check is dated March 7, 2002. 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 THE COURT: There is a May 25th, '01 for 12 $250,000 in between those times. 13 THE WITNESS: That is the Bank of America check 14 that I mentioned, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: That is the Bank of America, is 17 that right? 18 THE COURT: Yes. But I thought you said you 19 didn't think there had been any checks in between. 20 THE WITNESS: No. No. No. Other than that 21 Bank of America check. 22 THE COURT: Other than? All right. I'm sorry. 23 I misunderstood you. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Okay. When is the next time you met with a
1667 1 representative of the Church of Scientology after the 2 hearing before Judge Baird of April 19th? 3 A I -- I just don't know. But there would have been 4 meetings, you know, at that time period. 5 Q What do you recall in reference to somebody 6 talking to you about you need to do a second affidavit? 7 A Well, I think from the beginning Stacy Brooks and 8 I talked about doing a big affidavit. 9 Q What -- 10 A And we went through -- well, I think in one of the 11 meetings that we had in the early days, we said that to 12 Scientology, that we wanted to do a larger affidavit. 13 Q Before or after you did your first affidavit? 14 A Mmm, I think before. 15 Q And what meeting was this at? 16 A I don't know which one it was. 17 Q So before you sat down with Mr. Howie and 18 Ms. Brooks to write your first recantation affidavit, you 19 had already told the Church of Scientology that you were 20 going to write two affidavits, one being a small one and one 21 being a big one? 22 A Right. 23 Q Why? 24 A Well, the purpose of the small one was to deal 25 with -- you know, based on advice, that we needed to deal
1668 1 with these recantation things as quickly as possible. And 2 the small one was the way to do that the quickest and most 3 efficiently. 4 Q And without telling me what was said if it's from 5 your lawyer, who is the one that advised you to do the first 6 one as quick as possible? 7 A My attorney. 8 Q Oh. What is your understanding why you needed to 9 do an affidavit as soon as possible? 10 A Because of the perjury. 11 Q Now, because of the perjury that you recant in 12 your first affidavit? Or the one you recant in your second 13 affidavit? 14 A Because of the perjury that we recanted in our 15 first affidavits, collectively speaking, of Stacy Brooks and 16 myself. 17 Q Was Stacy Brooks writing her affidavit with you 18 when you were meeting on the 17th of April with Mr. Howie? 19 A Mmm, at some stage I -- I don't know. At some 20 stage Mr. McGowan came to Mr. Howie's office and -- and I 21 think she had prepared hers with Mr. McGowan earlier, and it 22 was a question of going to his office to sign it. But I 23 believe that what happened is he E-mailed it over, you know, 24 and he came later. And I believe that, you know, that 25 Mr. Howie, or Mr. McGowan on Mr. Howie's computer, you know,
1669 1 did hers. 2 Q Who printed out your affidavit, your first one? 3 A Mr. Howie. 4 Q At his office? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And who printed out Ms. Brooks' affidavit? 7 A Well, I believe -- I believe it was printed out at 8 Mr. Howie's office by either Mr. McGowan or Mr. Howie. I 9 don't remember the sequence of who was there when. But I 10 know Mr. McGowan E-mailed it over to Mr. Howie, then 11 Mr. McGowan showed up at Mr. Howie's office. 12 Q Did you meet with representatives of the Church of 13 Scientology before you composed your second recantation 14 affidavit? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did they have any input at all into your second 17 recantation affidavit? 18 A They looked at it. 19 Q And where did -- where were they at when they 20 looked at it? 21 A I believe we were in Mr. Pope's office. 22 Q Okay. So where did you compose your second 23 recantation affidavit? 24 A In several places. At the hotel. At the LMT 25 office. In Mr. Pope's office. You know, Stacy and I sat in
1670 1 a conference room at Mr. Pope's office one day. I was 2 dictating to her. 3 Q Was she typing it? Or writing it out? 4 A Typing it into the computer. 5 Q And where did she go to do her second recantation 6 affidavit? 7 A Just to back up and give you a little background 8 on this, what happened is Ms. Brooks and I tried to make a 9 time line. And from that time line, we wrote up narratives 10 of -- well, at least -- not in -- in my case. Her case was 11 a little bit different. We wrote up this time line 12 together. 13 I took basically the testimony that was done in 14 Judge Baird's court concerning the two areas that were 15 covered there, I took the information from the material that 16 we received from the Church of Scientology, that covered a 17 third area and, you know, put together a narrative, and from 18 that narrative, reduced it -- you know, I had that printed 19 out in front of me. Then I dictated from -- you know, using 20 that, to Ms. Brooks to put it in some sort of quasi-legal 21 form. 22 Q Did Mr. Pope know you were in his office when you 23 were doing your second recantation affidavit? 24 A He knew we were in his office at some time. I 25 don't know whether it was that time period.
1671 1 Q Did you ever meet with him? 2 A We -- I met with him because he opened the side 3 door one afternoon, I think it was a weekend. The person 4 who was supposed to come to open up the office didn't show 5 up on time. And I think he came over and opened up the 6 office. And he was standing at the side door. 7 Q When you were composing your second recantation 8 affidavit, either at the LMT or Mr. Pope's office, was there 9 anybody from the Church of Scientology present? 10 A There was nobody present at the LMT or at the 11 hotel. There were people from the Church of Scientology 12 present in the -- Mr. Pope's office while we were working on 13 this, yes, not -- not necessarily in the same room we were 14 working on it. 15 Q Before you went to Mr. Pope's -- was Mr. Pope's 16 office the last place you went to as you were composing your 17 recantation affidavit number two? 18 A Was it the last place? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Well -- 21 Q Before the final product was printed? 22 A Well, no, it wasn't. 23 Q Okay. Did you print out a draft of your second 24 recantation affidavit before you went to Mr. Pope's office? 25 A Yes.
1672 1 Q Did you send it to anyone before you went to his 2 office? 3 A Not that I'm aware of. 4 Q Did you show it to a representative of the Church 5 of Scientology for comment? 6 A I showed them a draft at some stage. Yes. 7 Q All right. When did you show them a draft? 8 A Well, I -- I don't remember exactly. Sometime 9 before it was done. 10 Q Well -- 11 THE COURT: Sometime after it was done but 12 before the final product, is that what you're 13 saying? 14 THE WITNESS: Sometime -- yes, sometime after 15 the draft, that draft. I think, you know, I did a 16 bunch of drafts. But sometime before a draft and 17 the final draft done at Mr. Howie's office. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q How many drafts of the second recantation 20 affidavit did you do? 21 A A couple. Maybe three. 22 Q And how many of those did you show to a 23 representative of the Church of Scientology? 24 A Maybe two of those. 25 Q And why did you do it that way? Why did you show
1673 1 them anything? 2 A Well, I mean, they were obviously interested in 3 it. And, you know, I was interested in them reading it. 4 Q Why were they interested in your recantation 5 affidavit? 6 A Well, just -- just to clarify here, this wasn't -- 7 it was, to some extent, but it was not a recantation 8 affidavit, per se. It was -- it was condensing a narrative 9 account of what had gone on into something that was 10 affidavit-type form. I mean, I'd never done an affidavit, 11 you know. I would be generally more verbose than an 12 affidavit. 13 Q Well, Ms. Brooks certainly had experience in doing 14 affidavits. 15 A Well, she had certainly done a lot of them, from 16 what I have seen of the stack up here. 17 Q She edited your harassment time line. Was she not 18 editing your declaration and affidavit of recantation? 19 A She did, you know, make some suggestions. 20 Q Well, you certainly didn't need the Church of 21 Scientology representative to help you edit and make it a 22 clear, precise statement of your affidavit, did you? 23 A No. But I thought it was important to let them 24 see exactly what I was saying. 25 Q Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, that you showed them
1674 1 several drafts of your recantation effort number two to make 2 sure it was acceptable to them? 3 A No. Absolutely not. 4 Q To make sure it covered all of the points that 5 they wanted you to cover? 6 A They didn't ask me to cover any points. 7 Q They had no input whatsoever when you showed them 8 several drafts of your second affidavit? 9 A Yes. They had some comments on it. 10 Q Okay. Who is the one that made the first comment? 11 A The first comment? 12 Q Yes. 13 A Oh, I don't know, you know, either Mr. Rinder or 14 Ms. Yingling. 15 Q Okay. What did Mr. Rinder say about your first 16 draft that you showed him? 17 THE COURT: The first? Or second? Whichever 18 one it was, does it matter? 19 MR. DANDAR: No. 20 A You know, of the couple drafts that I might have 21 shown them, I believe Mr. Rinder commented on it. You know, 22 it may have only been one draft that I showed them. I don't 23 remember. But it might have been two. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q And it might have been three?
1675 1 A No, I don't -- I don't think I did that many 2 drafts. 3 Q Did you show them at least two? 4 A Mmm, I think it could have been two. 5 Q Okay. What did Mr. Rinder say? 6 A Mmm, you know, I don't remember what he said. He 7 didn't -- you know, we were -- we were trying to be guided 8 by one overriding principle. 9 Q What was that overriding principle? 10 A To -- you know, based upon advice, we were trying 11 to drive the ball down the middle of the fairway. 12 Q All right. What does that mean? 13 A That means don't do -- don't say anything to favor 14 the Church of Scientology, and don't say anything to favor 15 Mr. Dandar, try to keep it down the middle. 16 Q Well, what's wrong with someone just saying, "Why 17 don't you just tell the truth and let the chips fall where 18 they may"? 19 A Well, that is what the advice we had was, tell the 20 truth, i.e., go right down the middle. You know, I'm just 21 trying to use an analogy here. 22 Q See, I don't want you to use an analogy. I want 23 you to tell me exactly what Mr. Rinder said. Did Mr. Rinder 24 say drive the ball down the middle of the fairway? 25 A No, he didn't.
1676 1 Q Well, so what is the principle that Mr. Rinder 2 announced to you that you should follow in doing your second 3 affidavit? 4 A Mr. Rinder didn't give us a principle. On the 5 advice of people who were giving us advice, just try to 6 drive the ball right down the middle of the fairway. 7 Q Was there anyone giving you advice other than your 8 counsel, Mr. Howie or Mr. Jonas? 9 A No. 10 Q Was Mr. Jonas involved in this at all? 11 A Mmm, only to the extent that he knew what was 12 going on. 13 Q Okay. So let's get back to Mr. Rinder's comments 14 about your drafts. What did he say to you? 15 A You know, I -- I don't remember what he said. 16 That's -- that's the simplicity of it. I just don't 17 remember what he said. You know, he -- he -- you know, 18 there wasn't a lot of doubt in my mind that, you know, he 19 would have preferred the ball to be driven down the 20 Scientology side of the fairway. I mean, that was my 21 impression, you know. He didn't say that, but that was my 22 impression. 23 Q So you can't remember anything that he said? 24 A I can't. 25 Q On any of the meetings that you had with him on
1677 1 any of the drafts? 2 A No, because, you know, the meetings on these 3 drafts were not extensive meetings. It was mainly just to 4 let him see it. 5 Q And you are positive, though, aren't you, that 6 these meetings took place after the April 19th hearing? 7 A Mmm, no, I'm not positive of that. But I -- I 8 just -- I don't know. But it took place before the thing 9 was signed. You know, from the time -- from the time we 10 got -- well, I guess after the recantation affidavit, from 11 the 17th to the 24th, would have been the time period in 12 which I would have been working on my affidavit. 13 Q Well, your affidavit number one is dated 14 April 17th. It was mailed out -- or sent out by your 15 attorney, Mr. Howie, on the 18th of April. 16 A Right. 17 Q The hearing was on the 19th of April. 18 Did you meet with Mr. Rinder about your second 19 affidavit before the hearing of April 19th? 20 A You know, I could have. 21 Q Did you meet with Mr. Rinder about your second 22 affidavit, which is dated April 24th, after the April 19th 23 hearing? 24 A I could have. You know, what I'm saying is I 25 don't know the dates of these meetings. Ms. Brooks and I
1678 1 didn't write them down. I just don't know the dates. 2 Q And when you met with Mr. Rinder on any time, it 3 was always in Mr. Pope's office? 4 A Mmm, no. I met with him other places. 5 Q Where? 6 A Mmm, I think I met him at the Hilton Hotel on 7 Clearwater Beach. I met with him at another hotel between 8 Tampa and Clearwater. 9 Q Which one? 10 A I think it was the -- it's a Marriott at the end 11 of the causeway. 12 Q There is a Hyatt there. 13 A No, that is the one I'm staying at. No. On the 14 other end of the causeway. There is a Marriott just 15 below -- just after the -- just after the -- after the 16 Bayside Bridge, is it, on the right-hand side, coming from 17 Tampa. 18 Q No. I mean, no, as far as I know. 19 A It's -- it's a Marriott property. I think it goes 20 with a different name, but I don't remember the name. 21 Q All right. 22 A But it's definitely a Marriott. 23 Q When you met at other hotels, was Mr. Rinder 24 staying at those hotels? 25 A No.
1679 1 Q Ms. Yingling? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you ever meet with Mr. Rinder alone, just you 4 and him, about your second April 24th affidavit? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever meet with anyone from the Church of 7 Scientology without Stacy Brooks being with you? 8 A Yes. 9 Q When? When was the first time? 10 A I don't -- I don't remember. But I met with 11 Mr. Rinder a number of times on my own. 12 Q Was it before you signed your April 24th 13 affidavit? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q Okay. Now, did Ms. Yingling -- since you can't 16 remember anything that Mr. Rinder said, did Ms. Yingling 17 give you any comments at all about your drafts of your 18 April -- what turned out to be your April 24th affidavit? 19 A Mmm, you know, whatever -- whatever comments they 20 made, they pretty much were making together, you know. 21 Q Were any of your attorneys present when you showed 22 your drafts of your second recantation affidavit to 23 Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling? 24 A No -- you are talking about the second affidavit? 25 Q Yes.
1680 1 A No. 2 Q On April 19th do you recall Ms. Yingling being in 3 the courtroom in front of Judge Baird in the audience 4 section? 5 A I didn't recall that she was there. 6 Q Okay. Do you recall the Church of Scientology 7 invoking the rule of sequestration at the hearing on 8 April 19th? 9 A Mmm, I remember somebody invoking the rule. 10 Q Do you remember Judge Baird saying that everyone 11 who is going to be a witness, you can't talk to anybody 12 about your testimony? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And yet you were meeting in secret with Michael 15 Rinder and Ms. Yingling, of the Church of Scientology, after 16 that April 19th hearing, weren't you? 17 A Well, I said, you know, we might have met during 18 that time, but I don't believe I was sequestered. I was a 19 party. And I don't think we discussed any testimony. 20 Q Well, you were preparing the second recantation 21 affidavit? 22 A Well, I said we probably met during that time 23 period. I don't know a date that we met. You know, I can't 24 give you a date that we met during that time, but I believe 25 that we met during the time period from after that
1681 1 recantation affidavit up until the 24th of April. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, you have to step it up. 3 MR. DANDAR: I know. I'm sorry. 4 THE COURT: I'm having a hard time staying 5 awake. 6 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q So you continued to meet with Mr. Rinder and 9 Ms. Yingling after you signed your second affidavit? 10 A Well, I certainly did after that. Yes. 11 Q Was Ms. Brooks present when you showed your 12 drafts of your second affidavit to Ms. Yingling and 13 Mr. Rinder? 14 A I believe she was. 15 Q Did she show drafts of her second affidavit to 16 Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rinder? 17 A You mean at the same time? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Well, I don't believe she started working on her 20 affidavit until after I'd finished mine because I was using 21 her computer skills to type. 22 Q Did you change anything, modify in any manner 23 whatsoever, any of your drafts of your affidavit based upon 24 your meetings with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling? 25 A No, I don't believe I did.
1682 1 Q You didn't add anything or take anything out? 2 A No. 3 Q Didn't change a sentence or -- 4 THE COURT: Counselor, Counselor, I'm not going 5 to have it a third time. He's not going to change 6 his testimony once he says it twice, so don't ask it 7 again. 8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Sorry. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Now, do you recall going to Jesse Prince's house 11 in April of 2002 for -- 12 A April -- 13 Q -- Stacy Brooks' birthday party or something like 14 this? 15 THE COURT: Didn't we cover this? 16 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered, I thought. 17 THE COURT: I thought we did. Maybe it was 18 with Ms. Brooks. 19 MR. DANDAR: I think it was. 20 THE COURT: I can't swear to it. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Unfortunately, I think it was. 22 THE COURT: I think it was, too. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I'm trying to be quiet, but -- 24 MR. DANDAR: That is two on one again, but -- 25 THE COURT: No, actually, he was on your side
1683 1 that time. 2 MR. DANDAR: Thank you, Mr. Weinberg. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I should have stayed quiet, I 4 suppose. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Do you recall doing that? 7 A Well, we didn't go there for a birthday party. We 8 went there after the hearing in Judge Baird's court on 9 April 9th. That is not her birthday. 10 Q Did you go any time after that? 11 A To Jesse Prince's house? 12 Q Yes. 13 A Not that I know of. 14 Q In fact -- well, let me ask you this. After 15 April 14th, that Sunday, have you -- did you schedule 16 yourself in any manner to go to Jesse Prince's house for a 17 barbecue? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And did you cancel that after you called up your 20 attorney and said, "I'm going to Jesse's for a barbecue"? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q What was the date of that barbecue? 23 A Well, Mmm, Jesse called up -- I don't know the 24 date. But I believe it was a weekend. Sunday, I think. 25 THE COURT: Is this before this sort of -- sort
1684 1 of the last meeting where you-all parted -- 2 THE WITNESS: It was after that, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Oh, it was? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 5 A Mmm, Mr. Prince, just like he did yesterday, in 6 fact, he called up Stacy Brooks and said that he wanted to 7 talk to me, and that, you know, he wanted to sort of, you 8 know, make up. And Stacy handed the phone over to me. 9 And I said, "Jesse, you know, I'm really not sure. 10 You know, we're sort of sequestered witnesses in Judge 11 Baird's case." 12 He said, "Look, Bob, we don't have to -- Bobby," 13 as he calls me, he said, "Bobby, look. There are a million 14 things in the world we can talk about besides any of this 15 stuff, you know. I just cleaned out the garage today. I 16 got the barbecue grill out. I know how much you love 17 barbecue. You know, the kids are having a couple of friends 18 over, you know, and I can barbecue for all of us. Why don't 19 you come on over anyway. We don't have to discuss any of 20 this." 21 And I -- you know, contrary to common sense, you 22 know, I said okay. 23 And then I got off the phone. I believe I called 24 Mr. Howie. And, afterwards, I called Mr. Prince back and 25 said I couldn't come.
1685 1 And he said, "Okay. Look," he said, "there are no 2 hard feelings. I understand. Tonight when we're finished 3 with the barbecue I'm going to drop off a package of 4 barbecue at the Hyatt Westshore for you." 5 Q Did he do that? 6 A I said, "Great." No, he never brought the 7 barbecue. 8 Q Now, was this before or after you signed your 9 third affidavit also dated April 24th that concerned Jesse 10 Prince? 11 A I don't know when it was. It was a Sunday, I 12 believe. Stacy and I -- I remember we were in the car and 13 we were headed down to the 33 North Ft. Harrison office, the 14 old LMT office, when this conversation took place -- or 15 when -- when I called him back about it. 16 The first part of the conversation took place 17 while I was at the Hyatt Westshore. And then, you know, I 18 called my attorney. And then I called Mr. Prince. 19 Q So you agree that your second affidavit of 20 April 24th has a lot more in it than simply Bob Minton 21 wanting to tell recantations of his prior alleged perjury? 22 A I never claimed it was a recantation affidavit. 23 It is to some extent. But it was basically, you know, a 24 narrative account reduced into some sort of affidavit form 25 to explain what had gone on in this case.
1686 1 Q For instance, Paragraph 13, you say: "Mr. Dandar 2 encouraged me to get as much negative media about 3 Scientology as possible. And I gave media interviews 4 whenever I could." 5 A That is correct. 6 Q Is that a truthful statement, Mr. Minton? 7 A It is, Mr. Dandar. I mean -- 8 Q Have I ever participated with you in a picketing? 9 A You were at pickets that I was at. You know -- 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this is asked and answered. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 MR. DANDAR: Was it? 13 THE COURT: Yes, it was. We've been through 14 this. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm sorry. 16 THE COURT: Really and truly, what are you 17 going to gain by going through his affidavit and 18 then saying, "Is that true?" 19 Well, he said it under oath. He's going to say 20 it's true. We have to wait for you, if you think 21 it's not true. That is no good for you to ask him 22 those kinds of questions. 23 MR. DANDAR: Well, we've had some recent 24 revelations of under-oath testimony like the ones on 25 April 8th. But I'll go on to something else.
1687 1 THE COURT: Well, we may have. But those were 2 not things that were in the affidavit. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Mr. Minton, did you and I enter into some 5 agreement of whatever kind to add on David Miscavige as a 6 party defendant in the wrongful death case? 7 A No, we didn't. You know, I testified exactly -- 8 THE COURT: Yes, I think we've been over that, 9 just over it and over it. Really, I do. 10 MR. DANDAR: I -- not this part. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Mr. Minton, did you make a deal with Dell 14 Liebreich to permit you to use the Lisa McPherson wrongful 15 death case to harass defendants' witnesses? 16 A No, I didn't make any deal with Dell Liebreich, 17 not on that. 18 Q Did you make any deal with Dell Liebreich to make 19 false allegations against the Church of Scientology in the 20 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case? 21 A Did I make any deal with her to do that? 22 Q Yes. 23 A No. 24 Q Did you pay me, Ken Dandar, $100,000 in February 25 of '98 so that I would go out and get a court order to
1688 1 obtain the PC folders of Lisa McPherson? 2 A Mmm, no. There wasn't any specific charge with 3 that money. 4 Q Did you ever pay me money so that I would attack 5 the religious beliefs of the Church of Scientology? 6 A I didn't have to. 7 Q So the answer is no? 8 A The answer is no. 9 Q Mr. Minton, did I have any involvement whatsoever 10 in having the Lisa McPherson Trust hire Teresa Summers? 11 A I don't think you did. 12 Q Did Teresa Summers get paid by the LMT as an 13 employee? 14 A She did, I'm quite certain. 15 Q And did she get paid because she provided work 16 services at the LMT? 17 A Sure. That is what she was doing there. 18 Q And Jesse Prince got paid to provide services at 19 the LMT? 20 A Well, Jesse was a little different in the sense 21 that he was also doing stuff for you. But, yes, he got paid 22 for work that he did at the LMT. 23 Q Okay. Do you know if anyone paid Karsten, 24 K-A-R-S-T-E-N, Lorenzen, L-O-R-E-N-Z-E-N, from Denmark? Did 25 anyone pay him to testify in his deposition in the Lisa
1689 1 McPherson wrongful death case? 2 A I don't have any knowledge of what Mr. Lorenzen 3 did, although I know he testified. 4 THE COURT: Who is he? 5 MR. DANDAR: He's a former Scientologist who 6 was on an isolation watch, watching someone who was 7 flown over from Flag about six months after Lisa 8 McPherson died who was in pretty bad shape and he 9 watched her in Denmark. He was -- he had a similar 10 type experience, except that person lived. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Mr. Minton, have you tampered with witnesses who 13 were witnesses for the Church of Scientology by -- excuse 14 me, have you tampered with witnesses who are witnesses for 15 the estate of Lisa McPherson by sending them to Well Spring? 16 A It wasn't -- you know, I wouldn't consider it at 17 all witness tampering. I mean, I sent them to Well Spring. 18 Q Who did you send to Well Spring and why? Compound 19 question, but just do it. 20 A Well, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince. And I didn't 21 send him, but I paid for him to go there. Vaughn Young. 22 Q And did Jesse Prince go on his own? 23 A What do you mean, did he go on his own? 24 Q Did he say, "Yeah, that is a good idea, I'll go to 25 Well Spring"?
1690 1 A I think it took some cajoling by Stacy and myself 2 to go. He didn't want to go. 3 Q And do you know if that caused him to change his 4 opinions about the Church of Scientology? 5 A I'm pretty certain it would have. 6 Q How? 7 A Well, I think the -- the information given at Well 8 Spring, you know, tends to make someone be more likely to 9 dislike the organization from which they've come out of. 10 Q Are you saying that Jesse Prince voiced no 11 negative opinions about the Church of Scientology before he 12 went to Well Spring? 13 A Oh, no. He -- he's -- he still voices very 14 negative opinions. Whether they are more or less -- you 15 know, I can't say that Well Spring made a huge impact one 16 way or another. But I believe it would have made an impact 17 on how he felt. 18 Q Did Vaughn Young change his opinions about 19 Scientology after going through Well Spring? 20 A I haven't discussed it with him. 21 Q In fact, both Vaughn Young and Stacy Brooks signed 22 declarations before and after going to Well Spring with the 23 same negative opinions concerning the Church of Scientology, 24 isn't that true? 25 A Well, I can't say whether it is true or not. All
1691 1 I can say is I don't think either one of them have written a 2 favorable affidavit about Scientology -- 3 Q Okay. 4 A -- to my knowledge. 5 Q And you agreed -- and you did pay for Jesse Prince 6 to go to Well Spring, correct? 7 A Mmm, well, yeah, I did. I mean, the way it worked 8 is, you know, I paid the money to Well Spring's victim 9 assistance fund, but it was earmarked for Jesse. 10 Q Did Well Spring know it was earmarked? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And did you do that because you wanted him to 13 testify better for the estate in the Lisa McPherson case? 14 A Mmm -- 15 Q Or did you do it for another reason? 16 A I did it because I thought it would be helpful to 17 him. 18 Q To him? 19 A Yes. As a person. 20 Q Okay. The same for Vaughn Young? 21 A You know, he was having a difficult time, you 22 know. Stacy had been there, and she thought it would be 23 helpful for him. I had nothing to do with deciding or 24 suggesting he go there. That was purely a matter between, I 25 think, Stacy and Vaughn.
1692 1 Q Did you send Stacy -- pay for Stacy Brooks to go 2 to Well Spring because you were -- wanted to help her 3 personally or because you thought she would make a better 4 consultant to the estate of Lisa McPherson? 5 A To help her personally. I mean, you know, that 6 was the way it was. 7 Q Mr. Minton, did you go out and -- in Clearwater, 8 Pinellas County, and intimidate witnesses who were on the 9 witness list of the Church of Scientology in this case? 10 A Mmm, I don't -- I believe that I probably did, you 11 know, by the activities along the side of the Clearwater 12 Bank building, in which all of the Church employees were 13 going to meals three times a day. 14 Q And what activities was that? Picketing? 15 A Picketing. You know, loud talking. 16 Q Did I tell you to do that? 17 A Mmm, on occasion you said -- like, for example, 18 with regard to that headliner in the St. Pete Times, "Go get 19 a hat" or whatever -- 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: I'm lost. I'm sorry. 22 MR. DANDAR: To let you know, Judge -- 23 A Well, I did testify about this already. But about 24 the time that -- the morning that the St. Petersburg Times 25 article, front page article, came out about David Miscavige
1693 1 being added as a defendant in the case, you said "Take that 2 newspaper out there and --" 3 THE COURT: Vulgar word? 4 A "-- stick it somewhere." 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Really. You are attributing that statement to me? 7 A That is what you said. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I think it was -- you know -- 10 Q Outside of picketing -- I'm sorry, did I 11 interrupt? 12 A Whether it was "stick" or "shove," you know, it 13 was -- you get the gist of what I'm talking about. 14 Q Outside of the picketing, did you do anything else 15 to harass witnesses that were listed by the Church of 16 Scientology in this case? 17 A Mmm, well, you know, I -- I -- Stacy Brooks and I 18 went to Bennetta Slaughter's house that evening. You know, 19 I don't think that was -- I don't think we meant to harass 20 her as a witness. But we did go out there. 21 Q That is all on video, isn't it? 22 A It's -- well, the -- the lens cap, I think, was on 23 the camera and Stacy was trying to figure out how to use the 24 camera. It's not on video. You know, there is some sound 25 to it, but there is not much in the way of pictures.
1694 1 Q Is it your testimony I told you to go to Bennetta 2 Slaughter's house to harass her? 3 A No. 4 Q In fact, she wasn't even at the house, was she? 5 A We never knew whether she was there or not. 6 Q Is it your testimony that all of the picketing you 7 conducted or others conducted at the Lisa McPherson Trust 8 was all at my direction? 9 A No. I never said that, Mr. Dandar. 10 Q Okay. What was at my direction? 11 A You know, what -- well, basically getting in 12 Scientology's face, getting as much publicity as possible, 13 negative publicity, about Scientology. 14 I mean, you know, going back to 1998, that 15 Dateline show that spent months being filmed, I mean, you 16 were just dying for them to get me to do anything about the 17 Lisa McPherson case, the same with the SAT-1, the German 18 television show, which was filmed, you know, a few months 19 earlier, I think, than the Dateline thing started. You 20 wanted me to get Stephan Strothe, producer of the show, to 21 talk to you, and he did. There was, you know, plenty of 22 Lisa McPherson material in that show. 23 You know, Dateline wouldn't go along with the 24 McPherson thing -- the McPherson death situation because, 25 you know, it had been covered too much in the media and they
1695 1 didn't want -- you know, they felt that they would get 2 hassled if they started covering something that had already 3 been covered extensively on their network and CBS and ABC. 4 You know, I believe that when the reporter from 5 the Baltimore -- I think it was the Baltimore Sun came down, 6 I think you wanted to meet with her. I think you did meet 7 with her. I think you were quoted in the article. 8 THE COURT: Is this the Baltimore Sun article? 9 THE WITNESS: I believe that is what it is. 10 THE COURT: Do you think there are too many 11 folks from down here that read it? 12 THE WITNESS: No. No, not here. But this 13 was -- any kind of publicity. It was also -- you 14 know, the same story was run in a lot of newspapers 15 around the country, including the Atlanta Journal, 16 some papers in Florida also, your Honor. The 17 Miami -- one of the Miami papers. 18 THE COURT: Are you at a little lull? I have a 19 couple questions. 20 MR. DANDAR: I'm at a lull because I need to 21 make a copy of an exhibit and it's 20 pages long. 22 THE COURT: Well, I have a little question, 23 very brief, and then I'll let you run your little 24 thing and we'll take a break. 25 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
1696 1 THE COURT: I meant to ask you this on Tuesday. 2 This movie, The Profit, as I recall, you were the 3 main producer, you were -- you had -- you were the 4 main money person? 5 THE WITNESS: Money person, yes. I think, you 6 know, I was given executive producer credit, but 7 somebody -- there was a producer. 8 THE COURT: But you were the money man? 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 10 THE COURT: Then Mr. Alexander sort of -- I 11 guess it was his, then Ms. Greenway was listed in 12 the list of credits. In other words, they appeared 13 to be the ones that it was really their production? 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 THE COURT: You supplied the money? 16 THE WITNESS: Right. 17 THE COURT: Then I saw -- oh, I saw some faces 18 that I knew as I was watching it. 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 THE COURT: What -- other than playing this 21 little bit part in there, what, if anything, did 22 Mr. Dandar have to do with that movie? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, what he had to do with it, 24 as far as I was concerned, with me -- I don't know 25 what he discussed or did with Ms. Greenway or Peter
1697 1 Alexander -- we discussed it. He wanted to make 2 sure, first of all, that this wasn't going to 3 consume too much money so that it was going to cut 4 him off in any way. 5 He -- you know, I discussed with him some of 6 the original discussions with Peter Alexander. One 7 of the -- well, there were several angles to this 8 movie. Mmm -- 9 THE COURT: This may be way beyond what I 10 wanted. What I want to know is did he help to write 11 it? Did he help to direct it? Did he help to 12 produce it? Did he help to show it around the city? 13 Or -- 14 THE WITNESS: Did Mr. Dandar? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: So he was no way involved in the -- 18 supposed to make any money off of it or put any 19 money into it or anything like that? 20 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 21 THE COURT: Did he make any decisions on where 22 to release the film? 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't believe he did, but I
1698 1 don't know because, you know, he was close with 2 Ms. Greenway and Mr. Alexander. You know, they were 3 both in Tampa. He had lots of conversations with 4 them that I was never part of. 5 THE COURT: And as far as you were concerned, 6 he didn't come to you and ask you to release it 7 here, there or the other place? 8 THE WITNESS: No. But -- but he was extremely 9 interested in this movie being a hit, you know, that 10 it would actually be popular and would influence 11 people about Scientology, including people here. 12 He was also very keen about one of the central 13 aspects of this movie, which is something that had 14 been tried in connection with the copyright cases, 15 and that was the thing that Graham Berry, this 16 attorney who you have heard about here, he -- he 17 filed a lawsuit in San Luis Obispo, California 18 where -- which is where I think Mr. Hubbard died. 19 THE COURT: I know we're well past what I want 20 to know. But could you get to the end of wherever 21 it is you are going? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, this aspect -- okay, I'll 23 just get to the point here. 24 Anything to besmirch David Miscavige was 25 something Mr. Dandar was interested in.
1699 1 THE COURT: This Miscavige -- when was this 2 movie released, do you know? 3 THE WITNESS: Mmm, it was 2001 sometime. 4 THE COURT: When was it made? 5 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I think the shooting on it 6 started in early 2001, I think. 7 MR. DANDAR: It started -- 8 THE COURT: 2001? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, 2000 -- now I'm trying 10 to -- I guess it was -- I think it was 2000 that it 11 was -- you know, I forget now whether it is 2000 or 12 2001, but -- I'm trying to think. It was shown in 13 Leipzig -- no, the Cannes Film Festival in March of 14 2001. So it was shot in 2000. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: And, you know, the first time it 17 was shown anywhere was there. Then later it was -- 18 in June it was shown in Leipzig. Then it was shown 19 in Tampa, which film critics came and reviewed it. 20 Then subsequently it was released in this theater in 21 Clearwater. 22 THE COURT: Is that a theater, or is that a 23 coffeehouse? 24 THE WITNESS: I have never been there. You 25 know, I think it is, you know, a dinner theater it
1700 1 is called. 2 THE COURT: In other words, if I'm looking to 3 go to a movie and I go and look in the newspaper, do 4 I find this place? I don't know. 5 THE WITNESS: I never looked for it, your 6 Honor. I didn't go to it when it was playing in 7 Clearwater. 8 THE COURT: So you are suggesting that he hoped 9 that it would make Mr. Miscavige look bad, he was 10 hoping it would be seen by a lot of people there? 11 THE WITNESS: Not just in the area. It was 12 envisioned to be a rather big thing, you know, 13 nationally, as opposed to just locally. 14 THE COURT: As it had to do with the Lisa 15 McPherson case, though, let's -- let's forget about 16 his wanting it to be -- as it had to do with the 17 Lisa McPherson case, what, in your mind, did he have 18 to do with that movie? 19 THE WITNESS: Well, only to the extent of 20 wanting it to be a hit here. 21 THE COURT: Maybe he wanted to be a movie star. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know, or an FBI 23 agent. I don't know. But -- but that was the main 24 thing. And this slam on Mr. Miscavige was very 25 important.
1701 1 THE COURT: He perceived that if it were a hit 2 and the folks were to understand that it was 3 Scientology that was being portrayed, that this, 4 what, might help his lawsuit? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, the -- 6 THE COURT: I mean, are these things that 7 you-all were talking about? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, the thing about David 9 Miscavige we did talk about, because the thing about 10 David Miscavige -- and this is a theory that was 11 started by Vaughn Young -- is that David Miscavige 12 killed L. Ron Hubbard. And that is the central 13 starting point and end to that movie. 14 THE COURT: David Miscavige killed L. Ron -- 15 oh, L. Ron Hubbard? Oh, okay. And that had 16 something to do with Lisa McPherson? 17 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. It was -- it was 18 to -- to go after the Church, you know, to go after 19 Miscavige; because, you know, basically the idea was 20 that, you know, if you could besmirch Mr. Miscavige 21 enough, there would be a power struggle in the 22 Church, sort of like Saddam Hussein, you know, in 23 iraq, which the CIA never got it to work, but this 24 is sort of what was discussed about this. 25 THE COURT: So this was more to mess up the
1702 1 Church and the religion and the organization -- 2 THE WITNESS: To put it -- well, if you could 3 have Mr. Miscavige in any way removed, yes, this 4 would cause a lot of -- 5 THE COURT: Turmoil? 6 THE WITNESS: -- internal turmoil, yes. 7 THE COURT: Inside? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. That kind of seems to me to 10 be a different motive. 11 THE WITNESS: It is. 12 THE COURT: What is it that this movie had to 13 do with this lawsuit that was pending, particularly 14 the wrongful death case, other than if it were a hit 15 and if it were seen in this community and if the 16 people who saw it realized it had something to do -- 17 THE WITNESS: Associated -- 18 THE COURT: -- with Scientology, and if those 19 same people happened to sit on a jury, and if nobody 20 asked about it and they could sneak on the jury, 21 they might be more inclined to vote unfavorably to 22 Scientology, is that -- 23 THE WITNESS: Basically, the nutshell of it, 24 yes. 25 THE COURT: Other than that kind of scenario,
1703 1 if all those things could happen it could help a 2 lawsuit, there was nothing else, as far as 3 Mr. Dandar and that movie, as to the wrongful death 4 case? 5 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, you know, you have 6 seen it. And, you know, there was nothing in there 7 that tied in with the case, per se. 8 THE COURT: No, nothing that I saw. 9 THE WITNESS: No. Nothing that I saw, either. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Then just generally, not 11 involving Mr. Dandar at all, on that movie -- and I 12 just want to ask this before I forget it -- the same 13 thing would be true as to the movie. In other 14 words, that the movie wasn't made, I take it, with 15 the idea of being shown at the same time the Lisa 16 McPherson trial was going on or anything like that? 17 Nobody knew when, if ever, the case would go to 18 trial? 19 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah, you're right, but 20 there was a stage, when the trial was thought to be 21 happening -- 22 THE COURT: I mean, there have been lots of 23 those. 24 THE WITNESS: I know. Nobody knew for sure 25 when it would go to trial, that's for sure, your
1704 1 Honor. The purpose -- or timetable of making the 2 movie was to make it as quick as possible, just to 3 minimize the expenses. 4 THE COURT: I mean, when most people make a 5 movie -- I don't know because I never made one -- 6 but I assume it's to make money. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, that is always a nice 8 benefit. 9 THE COURT: Right. So I assume when you made 10 this movie, you would think perhaps if it was seen 11 by enough folks, it would make you and make whoever 12 some money? 13 THE WITNESS: Right. Well, that was another 14 interesting aspect of it. 15 THE COURT: And then the other -- only way it 16 relates to Lisa McPherson is if all those things 17 that we just went through lined up somehow? 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, if it was popular and seen 19 a lot in this area, that's right. But as far as -- 20 but it was part of the whole negative publicity 21 about Scientology, especially this part about 22 Mr. Miscavige, to throw the Church in some kind of 23 turmoil. 24 THE COURT: Okay. But that is different -- in 25 my mind, that is a little different in the case. It
1705 1 seems like that is a different issue. 2 THE WITNESS: Right, it's -- it's -- yeah, it's 3 different than the case. 4 THE COURT: Okay. We're going to take an 5 afternoon break. It is five minutes until three. 6 We'll be in recess until 3:15. 7 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:55 to 3:18 p.m.) 8 _______________________________________ 9 THE COURT: You may continue. How close to 10 being finished are you? 11 MR. DANDAR: Very, very. 12 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, could I ask you a 13 personal question? Where do judges smoke? 14 (A discussion was held off the record.) 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Mr. Minton, let me show you what has been marked 17 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 79, and I'll give you the clerk's 18 copy. 19 Do you recognize the first page as being something 20 that you posted? 21 A Yes. I remember this post. 22 Q It was October 5 of 1999? 23 A Right. 24 Q And why did you post these declarations of Vicki 25 Aznaran and Michael Hertzberg?
1706 1 A Let me just read the opening. 2 Q All right. 3 A Well, I thought -- I thought this was a prime 4 example of somebody selling out to the Church of 5 Scientology. 6 Q By recanting all their prior sworn declarations 7 that were critical of the Church of Scientology? 8 A I'm not sure whether she recanted all, but I 9 remember she recanted an affidavit that she did for Graham 10 Berry. 11 Q Was that in the Fishman case? 12 A I -- I'm not sure. 13 Q Did it have to do with end cycle? 14 A I don't know what it had to do with. 15 Q Do you know if it had to do with David Miscavige's 16 role in Scientology? 17 A I -- I don't remember what was in her affidavit, 18 nor whether I ever read it at the time. 19 Q Okay. 20 A I have read it since -- since I posted this. 21 Q And Vicki Aznaran was the former president of RTC, 22 Religious Technology Center, correct? 23 A That's right. 24 Q And what was the purpose that you posted it, 25 though?
1707 1 A Well, you know, I thought this was -- I thought -- 2 she -- you know, I know she settled with Scientology. I 3 believe she had lied in some affidavit -- or -- or -- sorry, 4 not that I believe she lied, that she lied in the current 5 affidavit that she did, recanting -- 6 Q The recantation? 7 A -- recanting the previous affidavit. 8 Q So the lies were in the recantation affidavit that 9 she did? 10 A Mmm, that is what I thought, yeah. 11 Q Okay. And this is your posting, correct? 12 A It is. You know, I've -- this was the affidavit 13 that supposedly Graham Berry added ten pages to. 14 Q With the recantation affidavit? 15 A No. Her -- her original affidavit she filed in 16 the Fishman case. 17 Q Oh, so in this posting it includes her recantation 18 affidavit in which she accuses Graham Berry of adding ten 19 pages to her previously filed declaration? 20 A Mmm, that is what I believe. Yeah. 21 Q After she settled with the Church of Scientology, 22 that is when she filed the recantation affidavit? 23 MR. FUGATE: I object to the relevance, 24 materiality. And if he has personal knowledge of 25 whatever.
1708 1 THE COURT: It's a posting, that is all. 2 A You know, all I know about Vicky Aznaran, other 3 than she was the president of RTC, was it came up in one of 4 these meetings with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Shaw. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Okay. In 2002? 7 A Right. 8 Q Okay. And are you the one that called her an OSA 9 whore? 10 A I did. 11 MR. DANDAR: I move this into evidence. 12 THE COURT: Any objection? 13 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. It will be received. 15 Is this the one that -- that from time to time when 16 I read some affidavit, or maybe deposition or 17 something -- I guess affidavit of Mr. Prince -- he 18 talks about a woman that is sort of on the same 19 level as he or maybe one level above? 20 MR. DANDAR: One level -- 21 THE COURT: Is that this lady? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 23 THE COURT: It looked like the same name. 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 25
1709 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q When is the first time you met with Ben Shaw in 3 2002? 4 A Mmm, I don't have a precise date, but I believe it 5 was sometime, you know, late April. There were two meetings 6 that he was present for. 7 Q Your second and third affidavits are both dated 8 April 24, 2002. Was it before or after those affidavits? 9 A I'm not certain but I think it was after. 10 Q And what was the purpose of the meeting -- the 11 first meeting with Ben Shaw when he was present? 12 A Mmm, well, I believe that Stacy Brooks was, you 13 know, also in -- this was at Mr. Pope's office. I believe 14 Stacy Brooks was in the -- in the conference room working on 15 her affidavit. I was sitting in the other room with Ben 16 Shaw and Mr. Rinder. 17 And, you know, we -- Stacy Brooks would come in 18 occasionally. I think we ate dinner there in the library 19 room at Mr. Pope's office, you know. 20 And as I recall, what Mr. Rinder and Mr. Shaw and 21 I talked about was just some of the things that had happened 22 over the course of -- you know, personal things, you know, 23 things that had been said by me, or things -- or things that 24 had been done by me, or things that had been said by them or 25 done by them. And, you know, it was -- that's what was
1710 1 going on. 2 Q Just chatting? 3 A Pretty much, yeah. Except for, you know -- and 4 during dinner, Stacy Brooks was there for the dinner. You 5 know, we had -- there were two types of dishes brought. One 6 was chicken with something. And one was trout. And I had 7 the trout. And it was really good. 8 Q Is that from the Ft. Harrison Hotel? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And this was -- 11 A And, yes, it did include rice and beans, but they 12 were delicious. 13 Q And this included -- this was a day that Stacy 14 Brooks was composing an affidavit? 15 A Well, she was working on her affidavit, I believe. 16 Q The long one? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And did she bring drafts into the room to show 19 Mr. Rinder and Mr. Shaw? 20 A I don't think so. 21 Q Do you know if she showed drafts of her long 22 recantation affidavit to anyone? 23 A Mmm, I believe she showed it to Mr. Rinder and 24 Ms. Yingling. 25 Q When?
1711 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Were you present when she showed it to them? 3 A Mmm, you know, I was probably in the building. I 4 might have been in the room at the time. I don't know. 5 Q Forgive me if I asked you this question. I'm 6 trying to get this done. I'll be done quickly. 7 In your mind, what was the reason why you showed 8 your drafts of your long affidavit to Mr. Rinder and 9 Ms. Yingling? 10 A Well, you know, undoubtedly, they were interested 11 in what these things said. And, you know, I thought they 12 would be interested. That's -- and whether they had any 13 comments. 14 Q And as far as you know, you can't remember any 15 comments that they made, right, about yours? 16 A As I said, you know, the generality of it was they 17 wanted the ball driven a little further to one side than the 18 other. 19 Q And did you help them drive that ball? 20 A No. 21 Q Did they say -- what did they say to Stacy Brooks 22 about the drafts that she showed them of her affidavit? 23 A You know, I -- I don't recall what they said. 24 Q Was Mr. Shaw there when Ms. Brooks brought in a 25 draft of her long affidavit?
1712 1 A I don't think he was. 2 Q Were any of your attorneys there, Ms. Brooks' or 3 yours? 4 A No. 5 Q And after Stacy Brooks finished her long 6 affidavit -- and the record will show what date that was -- 7 did you continue to meet with representatives of the Church 8 of Scientology? 9 A Well, at some stage after Stacy Brooks finished 10 her affidavit -- which I don't remember the date you said it 11 was -- what date was it? 12 Q I don't know. I don't have it in front of me. 13 A Well, sometime soon thereafter, she started 14 testifying here for quite some period of time. And I met 15 with Mr. Rinder at least a couple of times -- a few times, 16 while she was testifying. 17 Q And what did you and Mr. Rinder talk about while 18 she's testifying before Judge Schaeffer? 19 A Well, you know, I remember one meeting 20 particularly. It was pretty much just chatting about some 21 events that -- what I thought was the sort of worst thing 22 they ever did with me. And -- and discussing some events of 23 things that were particularly nasty that I said to 24 Mr. Rinder and about Mr. Moxon. 25 Q What was the worst thing they did to you?
1713 1 A You know, I don't -- well, it wasn't actually 2 something they did to me. It was something they did -- at 3 least I thought they did, and it wasn't denied, it wasn't 4 admitted either. 5 But my children like to play tennis. And my wife 6 was being sponsored by a man who was the president of 7 Fidelity Investments in Boston to join Longwood Tennis Club, 8 sort of a country club in Brooklawn. And somebody sent to 9 all of the members of this admissions committee or 10 acceptance committee copies of all of this stuff concerning 11 Nigeria, and that Therese was under indictment in Nigeria 12 and Minton was -- I was under indictment. 13 And, you know, that was -- that was hurtful to me 14 that, you know, I couldn't help her deal with that in any 15 way. 16 Q What year was this? 17 A I would imagine it would have been in 2000. 18 Q What is the worst thing they said that you did -- 19 THE COURT: Did this cost her her membership in 20 this club? 21 THE WITNESS: She didn't get in. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q What is the worst -- 24 THE WITNESS: I mean, everybody sort of backed 25 away.
1714 1 A Sorry, what was the question? 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q What did they tell you was the worst thing you 4 did? 5 THE COURT: Wait a second. You were not 6 indicted in Nigeria, were you? 7 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: So whatever it was that was being 9 sent was not even true, was it? 10 THE WITNESS: That's right. 11 A I'm sorry, please ask me again. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q So they neither admitted nor denied that they 14 participated in that smear campaign of your wife? 15 A That's right. 16 Q What is the worst thing that Mr. Rinder said that 17 you did? 18 A Well, it wasn't something that he said I did. It 19 was something that -- that I apologized about profoundly, 20 which we discussed in some detail. 21 Q What was that? 22 A Mmm, well, it was one night on the street in front 23 of the Ft. Harrison Hotel, where I said something while he 24 was being interviewed by some news media while a picket was 25 going on. I said something about him not being allowed by
1715 1 David Miscavige to come to his daughter's funeral when she 2 died. 3 Q Is that something that Ms. Brooks told you? 4 A No. It was actually something that was started by 5 Vicky Aznaran in the Fishman case. And, you know, I believe 6 now it was a lie. 7 Q Because Mr. Rinder told you it was a lie? 8 A Mmm, he explained to me what happened, and that 9 he, in fact, did come back here. And that, you know, that 10 this was during this mission holders conference in San 11 Francisco, that he was at INT -- I-N-T -- and that 12 Mr. Miscavige and others were at San Francisco. 13 And in the middle of the night, David Miscavige's 14 wife came in and told him that she hated to be the one to 15 tell him, but that his daughter had died in Clearwater. And 16 she said, "There is a car waiting, ready to take you to the 17 airport. We've already got you booked on a plane." 18 And -- and he went to the airport. And there he 19 met, coming back from Los Angeles, Mr. Miscavige, 20 Mr. Starkey and some others who -- and Mr. Miscavige asked 21 him what he was doing there. And he explained what was 22 going on. And he explained how Mr. Miscavige reacted and, 23 you know, offered to be of any assistance that he could. 24 And you know, generally, it was very much the opposite of 25 what had been said.
1716 1 Q Did -- did Vicky Aznaran recant, after she settled 2 with the Church of Scientology, those statements she made 3 about Mr. Rinder not being allowed to come to his 4 daughter's -- infant daughter's funeral? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q Now, you are continuing to meet with Mr. Rinder, 7 and sometimes Mr. Shaw is there, and you're talking about 8 things that each of you have done over the past five years 9 or so. 10 I mean, is there any discussion about your 11 negotiations? 12 A Absolutely not. 13 Q And when do you think you're going to get back 14 down and sit at the table to negotiate and hear the demands 15 of the Church of Scientology in reference to making a global 16 settlement with you? 17 A I would imagine when I get off the witness stand 18 here, eventually. 19 Q And the outcome of this hearing, as far as you 20 know, has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to 21 have a favorable or an unfavorable global settlement? 22 A Mmm, I'm not anticipating a favorable global 23 settlement, necessarily. I'm anticipating a global 24 settlement that will allow me to move on with my life and 25 get out of this mess that I've been in for the last few
1717 1 years. 2 Q Has there been any discussion, even a little bit, 3 about any global settlement's terms or conditions? 4 A I have tried to tell you that we haven't gotten 5 there yet. And there haven't been any discussions. 6 Q When you -- when you hired the services of Patrick 7 Jost, who is an expert in criminal investigations and money 8 laundering, did part of his purpose and part of his work he 9 did for you involve his expertise in money laundering? 10 A It did as it relates to the charges that were 11 alleged by the Nigerian high commissioner in London with the 12 Swiss authorities. 13 Q It had absolutely nothing to do with all of the 14 schemes you went through, like with the Gerry Armstrong 15 money, the LMT money, checks written to me, things like 16 that? 17 A Absolutely nothing to do with any of that. 18 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Just a minute. I'm just -- 19 that is all I have. 20 THE COURT: I just have one question, and it 21 really is raised by that last question. 22 When all this is done and you go in to have 23 this settlement discussion, somebody is going to 24 have to start off with what it is they want. That 25 is what settlement normally is. "This is what I
1718 1 want." "Well, this is what we're willing to give." 2 "No, this is what I want, what I'm willing to give." 3 What is it you are hoping for when this is 4 over? I mean, what global settlement is it you 5 want? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I don't mean to 7 give you a long answer to that. But if you wouldn't 8 mind just bearing with me a second -- 9 THE COURT: I know it will be more than a 10 second. But go ahead. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, I can stop if you prefer. 12 THE COURT: No, I just want to know basically, 13 is it your hope that you can just walk away and -- 14 and be no longer involved in any litigation and you 15 go your way and they go theirs and -- 16 THE WITNESS: And that I don't bother them. I 17 don't want to speak out about the Church of 18 Scientology anymore. I don't want them to speak out 19 about me. 20 THE COURT: Bother you, bother your wife, 21 bother Ms. Brooks? 22 THE WITNESS: You know, I guess -- yes, I would 23 just like for us to be able to -- you know, I'm not 24 saying we're going to send each other Christmas 25 cards or patch up anything other than the most
1719 1 fundamental issue between us, but -- 2 THE COURT: I take it you hope you don't have 3 to pay any money, and if you do, whatever it is you 4 have to pay, is as little as possible? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, that's for sure. That's 6 for sure, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: So -- so those are two things that 8 we said pretty quickly. 9 Now, what else is it you hope to obtain in this 10 global settlement, if anything? 11 THE WITNESS: I just -- I just want some peace 12 and -- 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: -- you know, your Honor, since -- 15 you know, this has been really hard. It's been -- I 16 just can't do it anymore. I don't want to do it. 17 THE COURT: Okay. What do you think they want 18 from their global settlement or whatever it is that 19 they're calling it? Are you both talking about 20 global settlements, settling everything everywhere? 21 THE WITNESS: So that we can -- 22 THE COURT: I assume "global" means you have 23 cases in France and -- 24 THE WITNESS: Germany, yes. 25 THE COURT: So when I hear "global," I presume
1720 1 you're hoping to settle everything and go away and 2 not bother them and they not bother you? 3 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: So that is what you want. What do 5 you think they want? 6 THE WITNESS: They want me to leave them alone 7 and not fund any litigation, you know. 8 I don't know what else they want. I know they 9 don't want me to be funding litigation or attacks on 10 the Church of Scientology, or helping people attack 11 the Church of Scientology, anymore. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Do you think they want 13 money? 14 THE WITNESS: I believe they expect it. Yes. 15 THE COURT: Is there any thought in your mind 16 as to what that amount would be? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I believe that 18 would put me in a very bad negotiating position 19 if -- 20 THE COURT: So you don't know anything about 21 money, except that first meeting you were shown 22 something that suggested this is what you've cost 23 the Church, this 34,925,000 figure -- $34,925,000. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I'm not, you 25 know, expecting to deal with that kind of amounts of
1721 1 money, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: I understand that. But you 3 basically told us you had no discussions of anything 4 I can put my fingers on and understand. So the only 5 thing I know of that has ever been discussed at the 6 very first meeting -- 7 THE WITNESS: New York. 8 THE COURT: -- you were shown something by a 9 lawyer from the Church of Scientology who said -- or 10 he said, or something -- "This is what all these 11 cases, we figure, you have cost us." 12 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I added them up, 13 as I said. 14 THE COURT: In your head you added them up? 15 THE WITNESS: Right. 16 THE COURT: So you don't expect to pay more 17 than that? That is true? And you're hoping, 18 obviously, you'll have to pay as little as possible. 19 Is that it? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: And when it is all done, it is your 22 hope, what, that the lawsuits will be gone, whatever 23 it cost you for the -- with the lawsuits will be 24 gone? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
1722 1 THE COURT: Okay. And then you don't plan to 2 put yourself in a position where you'll be suing 3 them or they'll be suing you in the future. Is that 4 it? 5 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. I want to be in 6 that position. I don't want, you know, any overt or 7 covert hostility of any sort in the legal arena, 8 through private investigators or whatever, between 9 me and the Church of Scientology. I would just like 10 for them to get on with their activities and for me 11 to get on with my life. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. DANDAR: May I ask two questions? 14 THE COURT: Well, why don't you wait until it 15 is your turn. That was my questions at the end of 16 yours. Mr. Fugate was on his way up there and I 17 said, "Let me ask two questions." 18 So did you just forget two? 19 MR. DANDAR: I just forgot two. 20 THE COURT: Well, all right, go ahead. 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION RESUMED 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Part of your settlement you believe will be a 24 total gag, like they did with Vicky Aznaran, Dennis Erlich 25 and others that have settled with the Church of Scientology?
1723 1 THE COURT: I don't know that -- you know, you 2 are going to use terms like that and that is going 3 to draw an objection with a question like that. 4 What do you mean, total gag? 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q A gag where you can't talk or even go on the 7 Internet concerning the Church of Scientology? 8 A Well -- 9 THE COURT: I think he said that, he expects 10 that he not -- he will not be talking about them and 11 they will not be talking about him. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Part of your negotiations include filing a lawsuit 14 against me? 15 A No. 16 Q Is that something you decided to do all by 17 yourself? 18 A I haven't decided to do it. 19 Q Has anyone suggested it to you, during all of your 20 discussions with the Church of Scientology, excluding your 21 attorney? 22 A No one has suggested it to me. 23 MR. DANDAR: All right. 24 A You know, Mr. Dandar -- 25 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have.
1724 1 A If I could just answer your question. 2 THE COURT: I think you have. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate -- that is the short 5 answer. We are going to start getting to the short 6 answers now. I have given some latitude here. I 7 would hate to say I'll remind you it is redirect 8 because normally we don't have -- 9 MR. FUGATE: I could go for weeks. 10 THE COURT: -- five days on cross, but I won't 11 remind you of that, so go on ahead. But do remember 12 you did put on a direct. I don't know if you 13 remember what it was. 14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, actually, I think that I'll 15 be brief in comparison and hopefully in actuality, 16 so let me get started. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Mr. Minton, I have got some stray notes here. And 21 I want to ask you some questions about things that came up 22 on cross. 23 In fairness, actually some of these things I think 24 were last week. I didn't date them, so if you remember 25 anything about it, fine.
1725 1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Mr. Fugate, I hate to 2 interrupt, but could I have a few-minute break? 3 THE COURT: Yes. We'll take a break here. 4 We'll be in recess -- we'll take our break at 4 and 5 work until about 5 or 5:15. 6 We'll be in recess for fifteen minutes. 7 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 4:00 to 4:18 p.m.) 8 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dandar, what are you, on 9 your telephone? 10 MR. DANDAR: I was trying to get the name of 11 that article for you. 12 THE COURT: Oh, okay. As we were talking out 13 there, you said something about you were to be their 14 next witness, and Mr. -- 15 MR. DANDAR: Hold on. 16 THE COURT: -- Mr. Lirot isn't going to be here 17 tomorrow? 18 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Lirot will not be here 19 tomorrow. And I believe I have my brother coming in 20 tomorrow. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Well -- okay, then Mr. Lirot 22 will be here the next day? 23 MR. DANDAR: The next day is Friday. We're 24 off. And we're off Monday. 25 MR. FUGATE: It will be Tuesday.
1726 1 MR. DANDAR: It will be Tuesday. He'll be 2 back. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 4 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. 5 MR. DANDAR: (Speaking on the telephone.) I 6 need the name of the 1969 article from John Coe. 7 THE COURT: The title. 8 MR. DANDAR: (Speaking on the telephone.) The 9 title. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Mr. Minton, as I was saying just before we broke, 12 I have got some questions, and there are notes I made that 13 go back a long time. And if you remember, fine. If you 14 don't, I'm not going to delay the proceedings. 15 But there are some questions that Mr. Dandar put 16 to you on cross-examination regarding the Key West -- what I 17 think we have come to call the Key West meeting. 18 And you had said something about -- in response to 19 a question -- that there was a money issue with Mr. Prince 20 and Mr. Dandar, that you were going to explain, then were 21 interrupted. 22 Do you remember that at all? I was going to ask 23 you what was the money issue, if you could remember? It had 24 something to do with the Key West trip and Mr. Prince and 25 Mr. Dandar.
1727 1 THE COURT: It had something to do with where 2 he indicated he thought Mr. Prince had lied in a 3 deposition about the Key West episode or incident. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q It was in that same general area of questions. 6 And there was just a comment that you made -- 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- about a money issue between the two. And I 9 wanted to ask what that was. 10 A I do remember now. It was Mr. Prince, on a number 11 of occasions, went to Mr. Dandar and represented, as though 12 he were speaking for me, about money. 13 And, you know, Mr. Dandar subsequently said 14 something to me about this, "Well, Jesse said you were going 15 to do this." 16 I said, "What in the hell does Jesse have to do 17 with this?" 18 I explained to Mr. Dandar, you know, "Look, if you 19 want to talk to me about money, you better do it directly to 20 me, not through Jesse Prince, because he has never been 21 authorized to speak for me. So, you know, please understand 22 you need to talk to me. Talk to me, not Jesse Prince, 23 because he has nothing to do with this." 24 Q In connection with the Key West trip, do you 25 remember what you were talking about there? Was there some
1728 1 question about Mr. Prince speaking on your behalf there, to 2 your knowledge? 3 A There was something that he said down in Key West, 4 and -- 5 Q For the Court -- 6 A I'm sorry. There was something that Jesse Prince 7 had said to Mr. Dandar in Key West about money from me. 8 Q To do what with, if you know? 9 A Mmm, well, I presume it was money for the case. 10 You know, I wasn't there so I don't know exactly. But I 11 knew it had to do with money from me based on what 12 Mr. Dandar told me. 13 Q So the conversation was relayed to you by 14 Mr. Dandar? Is that your recollection? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 A And -- 18 Q I'm sorry. 19 A I just wasn't there so I don't know exactly what 20 was said. But Mr. Prince, on that occasion and on another 21 occasion prior to the Key West trip, had represented as 22 though he were speaking for me about money matters to 23 Mr. Dandar. 24 Q And so in that period of time, whatever the date 25 was in August of the Key West trip, you knew both Jesse
1729 1 Prince and Mr. Dandar, am I correct in that? 2 A I knew them? 3 Q I'm just trying to establish, you knew who Jesse 4 Prince was and you knew who -- 5 A Yes. Yes. 6 Q Were you paying Mr. Prince money at that time, to 7 the best of your recollection, any moneys? 8 A Yes. 9 Q There was mention made a little bit ago in the 10 hearings -- 11 THE COURT: I hate to do this to you, but I'm 12 real confused. 13 The only time I remember hearing Key West was 14 that Mr. Minton said -- and I may be all wet here -- 15 you said -- during some conversation you had said 16 something to Jesse Prince, "You better straighten up 17 something you said," I presumed under oath, you 18 thought might be a lie? You said it had to do with 19 the Key West incident. 20 So I'm very confused, with what he just said, 21 as to what that would have to do with a lie that 22 Jesse Prince had said. 23 THE WITNESS: It didn't have anything to do 24 with his deposition. This is what we just talked 25 about.
1730 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: I'd previously -- I don't 3 remember whether it was Mr. Fugate or Mr. Dandar -- 4 asked me about this Key -- something about Key West. 5 And I was broken off in the middle of the answer 6 when I mentioned this problem about the money. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: And that, I believe, is what he's 9 referring to, you know. I don't know when that was 10 asked to me, but I remember something about the Key 11 West -- 12 THE COURT: Maybe I misunderstood the question. 13 MR. FUGATE: Well, there were two areas. I 14 think earlier today there were questions about that. 15 I was really going back to -- 16 THE COURT: Way back? 17 MR. FUGATE: Yes, a long time ago. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q There was a question today by Mr. Dandar that had 21 to do with whether or not the two of you were interested in 22 getting media attention on the case. And you mentioned that 23 you had arranged for a German television show or interview 24 to take place? 25 A Yes.
1731 1 Q Do you know if Mr. -- have you ever seen the 2 actual interview that was done on the German -- by the 3 German television station? 4 A Yes. It was a documentary. It was about 30 5 minutes long or 35 minutes long. 6 Q Was any part of that, to your recollection, filmed 7 in Mr. Dandar's office? 8 A Yes, it was. 9 Q And did Mr. Dandar participate and talk about the 10 Lisa McPherson case in that documentary? 11 A Yes. And showed pictures of Lisa McPherson, I 12 think maybe the early autopsy photos. 13 Q Do you remember about when that was time-wise? 14 '98? '99? 15 A Mmm, it was in '98. I think the thing was 16 broadcast in Germany around March 30th or something, you 17 know. Toward the end of March of '98. 18 Q And what did you do to assist in having that 19 documentary done? 20 A Well, it -- it was -- it was called -- I mean, it 21 was about me. You know, this German TV station had 22 contacted me and wanted to do this documentary. And so 23 we -- we did some -- some of it up in New Hampshire, some in 24 Boston, then we came down to Clearwater. 25 Prior to coming down to Clearwater, we arranged to
1732 1 have Mr. Dandar and Mr. Strothe, S-T-R-O-T-H-E, I believe -- 2 I had Mr. Strothe and Mr. Dandar meet. And part of the 3 documentary was, you know, in Mr. Dandar's office about the 4 McPherson case. 5 MR. FUGATE: Do you have any more questions 6 about that, Judge? I was going to move on. 7 THE COURT: No. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q You had just talked about -- a little bit ago, 10 about -- I think Mr. Dandar asked you if you participated in 11 sending any witnesses to Well Spring. What is Well Spring? 12 A Well Spring is a cult rehabilitation center. 13 Q And who did you pay for to attend that cult 14 rehabilitation center? 15 A Mr. Prince, Stacy Brooks and Vaughn Young. 16 Q And did you discuss that, either before they went 17 up or after they came back, with Mr. Dandar? 18 A I don't believe I did. 19 Q And how did you pay for that? I mean, is there a 20 cost involved? 21 A Yes. I sent them a check -- sent Well Spring a 22 check. 23 Q And how much is that, if you know, per person? 24 A Mmm, it depends on how long they stay. I think 25 for a couple of weeks it's around $7,000. And I think
1733 1 everybody stayed, you know, around about a couple of weeks. 2 You know, you live there on the premise and eat there. 3 Q Well, do you recall a total of about how much you 4 spent for that? 5 A About $20,000, $21,000. 6 Q Thank you. Now, Mr. Dandar had asked you some 7 questions and read from the April 9th hearing and asked you 8 essentially about questions Mr. Howie had asked you, did you 9 testify truthfully at the deposition on the 8th. And I 10 think he read, "Were your responses truthful?" And read 11 your answer: "Yes, I believe we said at the end there was 12 some clarification that we needed to make. But, yes." 13 Do you recall Mr. Howie also advising the Court, 14 at the end of that proceeding, that he wanted Judge Baird to 15 know that pursuant to a Florida statute dealing with 16 perjury, he wanted to have -- he was going to take the 17 opportunity to meet with you and to try and cooperate with 18 both the subpoena duces tecum -- and I'll get back to 19 that -- and, in addition, he was going to try -- he was 20 going to work on recantation affidavits on your behalf? 21 A Yes. I do. 22 Q All right. Now -- 23 THE COURT: Are you talking about the 8th? Or 24 9th? 25 MR. FUGATE: This is actually in the proceeding
1734 1 of the 9th. The reference that Mr. Dandar was 2 making in his questions was to the deposition on the 3 8th. 4 There was some questions back and forth about, 5 "Well, how come you didn't recant?" 6 And if you will recall, I stood up and said, 7 "Well, he didn't. Read Page 30 and 31." 8 I'm just going back to that. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q So you do recall Mr. Howie saying to the Court, in 12 that proceeding, "We're going to comply with the subpoena 13 duces tecum and we're also going to, pursuant to a Florida 14 statute," and if you remember the number, fine -- 15 A I don't remember the statute number. 16 Q But he was going to work on recantation in this 17 and other proceedings. Do you recall that? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 Q And when you testified earlier, as I heard you on 20 cross-examination, that you left after the April 9th hearing 21 and returned on April 12th, to your recollection did that 22 have anything to do with working on recantation affidavits, 23 as was just referenced? 24 A I didn't understand that. Left -- oh, yes -- left 25 Florida?
1735 1 Q Yes. I don't remember when you said you left, I 2 think the 10th or 11th? 3 A Well, I don't know whether it was the night of the 4 9th or the morning of the 10th. But, yes, we left -- we 5 were in New York on the 10th and 11th. 6 Q Now, I had your affidavit out -- 7 A You know, I don't think I answered your question 8 because I wasn't following your question. 9 Q You didn't. And I was about to move on. So let 10 me -- did you, in fact, come back to work on your 11 recantation affidavits? 12 A Yes. And -- you know, with Mr. Howie, we still 13 have obviously work to do. 14 Q There was also a question asked of you with regard 15 to your second affidavit about the Operation Clambake funds. 16 And do you have your affidavit up there in front of you, 17 your second affidavit? 18 A It's not here. I looked through that pile and 19 it's not here. 20 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 21 May I? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 MR. FUGATE: Everybody has got it, Judge, so 24 I'm not going to hand it out again. I would like to 25 ask him about a specific provision.
1736 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q First of all, make sure this is your affidavit, a 3 copy of your second affidavit. 4 A Okay. Yes, it appears to be. 5 Q If you look at Paragraph 48, is Paragraph 48 in 6 your affidavit dealing with the Operation Clambake funds? 7 A Let me just read that. Mmm, you know, I'm not 8 sure whether that relates to the Operation Clambake funds or 9 the $500,000 from Dresdner Bank. I'm not -- I don't 10 remember now. 11 Q But does it relate to the moneys that were going 12 into the LMT that came out that you were being asked 13 questions about? 14 A Yes, it does. 15 Q Whether it is the 300 or the 500? 16 A Right. Yes, it does. 17 THE COURT: Let me see what -- what paragraph? 18 What number? 19 THE WITNESS: 48, I believe. The one at the 20 top. 21 THE COURT: If you'll read -- let me ask you 22 this. Your Paragraph 47 says: "To alleviate -- I 23 tried to alleviate my concerns about my pending 24 contempt proceeding. Mr. Dandar, with Dr. Garko 25 present, reviewed with me approximately 86 questions
1737 1 that I had previously pled the Fifth Amendment to 2 and that Judge Schaeffer had ordered me to answer in 3 deposition. Mr. Dandar asked me the questions to 4 work out how I would answer each one. It was clear 5 to me that he did this to help me lie about the 6 funds that I had given him for the wrongful death 7 case." 8 Next, one question on that list, I assume the 9 list you just -- 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 THE COURT: -- were talking about concerned a 12 transfer of funds -- a transfer of funds to the Lisa 13 McPherson Trust. That was the $500,000, wasn't it? 14 THE WITNESS: I believe they were both on that 15 list of questions, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Well, we'll go back and find out -- 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 THE COURT: -- because we'll see whether or not 19 you testified about that check from Clambake in 20 there. 21 But a transfer of funds to the Lisa McPherson 22 Trust, Mmm, this business about the "Fat Man" -- 23 THE WITNESS: Yes? 24 THE COURT: -- and that Mr. Dandar told you 25 about, that was in relation to the $500,000 check,
1738 1 wasn't it? 2 THE WITNESS: The transfer, the wire transfer, 3 I think it was, but I'm -- but I believe that both 4 those questions about the Operation Clambake and 5 that $500,000 were on that list. 6 THE COURT: Okay. So are you trying to suggest 7 in that number right there where you're talking 8 about the "Fat Man," when Mr. Dandar said nobody 9 will believe that, that you were talking about the 10 $300,000 check, as well as the $500,000 check? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, what I'm saying, I'm not 12 sure which one that I was talking about because I 13 believe both questions were on that list. 14 THE COURT: I just want to be sure I understand 15 what you're saying because I have never heard, in 16 this proceeding, anything about the Clambake money 17 being suggested that it came from a "Fat Man." Only 18 the $500,000 check that went into perhaps the LMT -- 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 THE COURT: -- then there is some dispute as to 21 whether or not -- between you and Mr. Dandar as to 22 whether or not that's what you told him about the 23 $500,000 check given to him. Am I right or wrong? 24 THE WITNESS: Mmm, well, the "Fat Man" was also 25 related to the Clambake thing.
1739 1 THE COURT: Who did you tell that was from the 2 "Fat Man"? 3 THE WITNESS: I didn't tell anybody that was 4 from the "Fat Man." I'm just saying the "Fat Man" 5 first came up with regards to that Operation 6 Clambake thing because Mr. Merrett was the "Fat 7 Man." 8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, there were two -- as I 9 recall the testimony, two conversations about "Fat 10 Man" connected to two -- 11 THE COURT: If Mr. Howie thinks that 12 recantation right there takes care of that $300,000 13 check, then I don't ever expect to see anything 14 about it. 15 You know what? I'm going to see about it again 16 in a recantation affidavit, which is probably too 17 late, quite frankly. 18 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I'm asking because 19 I -- 20 THE COURT: I understand. 21 MR. FUGATE: -- thought -- 22 THE COURT: But it annoys me if I think 23 somebody is trying to pull my chain. And I think 24 that is what he's trying to do about that. That 25 $300,000 check has nothing to do with the "Fat Man."
1740 1 I know that. He knows that. These things -- he's 2 saying something different now. That is something 3 different than what he said, as far as I'm 4 concerned. 5 But that is all right. Go on ahead. 6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, Mr. Merrett testified about 7 that and about those moneys in the "Fat Man" story, 8 as I remember. 9 I don't want to argue with the Court at this 10 juncture, but that is the reason I asked the 11 question. 12 THE COURT: I didn't think that Mr. Merrett 13 even knew that the $300,000 check came from him. He 14 certainly did about the $500,000 check, didn't he? 15 MR. FUGATE: You know, Judge, to tell you the 16 truth, as I said, I'm always going to say I think 17 because this thing has been so long -- 18 THE COURT: Me, too. 19 MR. FUGATE: -- but I understood, I thought, 20 that he was talking about the transfers of the 21 moneys, in general. And that is the reason I asked 22 the question, because I thought it referred to both. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Am I missing something here, Mr. Minton? I don't
1741 1 want to -- 2 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor -- I mean, I 3 haven't said that that money that came from 4 Operation Clambake came from me. You know, I -- I 5 believe that that question was also in there. And 6 I'm not trying to say that this covered that 7 Operation Clambake. I'm saying that I don't 8 remember which -- which question it was right now. 9 I'm really not trying to cover anything up, your 10 Honor. 11 THE COURT: Well, I'm suggesting, so there can 12 be no doubt about it, is that my belief that 13 $300,000 check was not covered in your affidavit, it 14 was not covered until the matter was brought to the 15 attention of Stacy Brooks, and later to you, in this 16 hearing. Whether or not -- 17 THE WITNESS: I believe that is correct, your 18 Honor. 19 THE COURT: I do, too. So if that is the case, 20 you can hardly be talking about it in a recantation 21 affidavit. 22 So move on. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q You had testified, I think today, sir, that Jesse
1742 1 Prince -- there was some questions by Mr. Dandar about had 2 you tried to negotiate on Mr. Prince's behalf relating to 3 the sale of this house here in Clearwater. And you 4 indicated that you had. And there were problems with the 5 sale. Some questions in that area. 6 Do you recall that? 7 A Yes. But I don't think I said negotiate. You 8 know, this was one of the items -- 9 Q I said in Mr. Dandar's question. 10 A Oh, okay. 11 Q But you'd indicated, as my note reflects, that 12 Mr. Prince was not truthful about why his house wouldn't 13 sell. And I am asking you what you recall about that as it 14 relates to that series of questions. 15 A Well, the real estate broker who was handling his 16 house was the same one who sold Stacy Brooks' house. And, 17 you know, after some period of time the real estate broker 18 contacted Stacy Brooks to say that he was having problems 19 with Jesse concerning the price of his house. 20 And, also, there was somebody who came in directly 21 to Jesse who wanted to buy it. And Jesse was trying to cut 22 out the real estate broker, which the real estate broker, I 23 think, at that stage, it was okay for that to happen. He 24 just thought it was unrealistic what Mr. Prince was trying 25 to do with the price of his house.
1743 1 So -- you know, but his sale with the other person 2 fell through, at a much lower price than what he was asking. 3 But -- and so Stacy Brooks and I both talked to Jesse on the 4 phone about this; that, you know, he had to -- he had to be 5 realistic about the price that he was offering. The broker 6 is saying, "You know, you have it $90,000 over the market, 7 and that is just not going to fly." 8 Q This is a house that you'd loaned him funds to 9 purchase? 10 A The downpayment. Yes. 11 Q And had he done any refinancing of the house, to 12 your knowledge? 13 A He had done several refinancings. And included, 14 you know -- I don't even know what it was, other than that 15 he included a mortgage from a Memphis house that his 16 girlfriend owned, and some other personal loan that were all 17 included in the third refinancing, and which was something 18 Stacy and I weren't aware about the details of until the 19 broker brought it up to us. 20 Q So how much had you loaned him to purchase the 21 house? 22 A Mmm, $50,000 for his downpayment. 23 Q And what -- do you recall what the purchase price 24 of the house was? 25 A I'm afraid I don't remember.
1744 1 Q But the refinancing, I guess, was what the problem 2 was, among other things? 3 A Well, yeah. It was sort of like -- you know, in 4 some respects it was like having oversold his house, you 5 know. He wasn't going to be able to get what he owed out of 6 it. 7 Q Okay, sir. Mr. Dandar asked you about moneys that 8 you had given to Gerry Armstrong. And he -- and I think you 9 discussed a couple of -- of amounts of money to 10 Mr. Armstrong. And you were saying something about talking 11 to Mr. Dandar about that funding at or about the time -- as 12 I understood it -- that Mr. Armstrong was a witness. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Can you tell me what you recall about those 15 conversations? 16 A Mmm, I remember Mr. Dandar had sent me 17 Mr. Armstrong's deposition in which Mr. Armstrong had said 18 in there that he had not repaid that money. And I just -- I 19 brought it to Mr. Dandar's attention. 20 Q Brought what to Mr. Dandar's attention? 21 A I brought it to his attention that, you know, that 22 Gerry Armstrong had sent me a check for $100,000 to 23 presumably repay that loan but, you know, it was money from 24 me. 25 Q And did you -- did you tell Mr. Dandar about any
1745 1 other moneys that you had paid to Mr. Armstrong then? 2 A He -- he knew about the money for -- that Gerry 3 Armstrong used for that lawsuit, yes. 4 Q So you had discussed those two amounts of moneys 5 with Mr. Dandar prior to him asking you the questions here 6 in court? 7 A Well, not on the same occasion. On separation 8 occasions. 9 Q I understand that. 10 A Yes. Yes. 11 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. I'm 12 getting ahead of myself. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. FUGATE: Which is a good thing. 15 THE COURT: That is true. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Do you recall some questions by Mr. Dandar in 18 reference to, I believe, Mr. Merrett's comments about -- a 19 gecko comment, about LMT was a Gecko and the tail really was 20 the wrongful death case and it could be chopped off and LMT 21 would survive? 22 A I'm not sure I heard that. 23 Q All right. Then I may be confusing that. So 24 we'll move on. 25 THE COURT: I think Mr. -- Mr. Minton may have
1746 1 gone. He was not here for all of Mr. Merrett's 2 testimony. 3 MR. FUGATE: All right. 4 THE COURT: By the way now, I call those things 5 skinks. 6 MR. DANDAR: Skinks? What is -- the heck is 7 that? 8 THE COURT: A gecko, that is what I called 9 them. I always heard them called skinks. They are 10 the ones that don't change colors. 11 MR. DANDAR: That plus "get a hat" are two new 12 words. 13 THE COURT: There you go. 14 THE WITNESS: But, your Honor, don't skinks 15 sort of come up on their legs, lift up off the 16 ground? 17 THE COURT: A gecko doesn't? 18 THE WITNESS: I don't think a gecko does. 19 MR. WEINBERG: There you go. 20 THE COURT: Two different kinds of lizards, I 21 guess. 22 MR. DANDAR: We need Dr. Goff to come in and 23 explain it to us. 24 THE COURT: That's right. And a chameleon 25 changes colors.
1747 1 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 2 THE COURT: They go from green to dark. Skinks 3 do not. I don't know about geckos. I -- 4 MR. FUGATE: Am I interrupting anything, Judge? 5 THE COURT: No. I'm being my typical self at 6 four o'clock in the afternoon. 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: It is 4:30. 8 THE COURT: Yes, it's 4:30. Who cares. 9 MR. FUGATE: Thank you for the vote of 10 confidence. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to paraphrase 13 essentially the position then that Mr. Merrett indicated 14 that as far as he understood from discussions with you and 15 Ms. Brooks, that LMT was -- was -- could survive without the 16 wrongful death case. And, in fact, you know, in his 17 judgment, I guess, you guys wanted out of the wrongful death 18 case. 19 Was LMT, in your judgment, connected to the 20 wrongful death case, in your judgment, your opinion? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now, do you recall Mr. Merrett's E-Mail, I believe 23 it is Plaintiff's Exhibit 45, to Mr. Dandar? 24 A The August 24th or 23rd? 25 Q Yes.
1748 1 A Yes. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have a courtesy -- 3 THE COURT: I remember it. That is that little 4 short one? 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Now, the wrongful death case, as we see, is still 7 ongoing today. Is that correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q But did you instruct Mr. Merrett to notify 10 Mr. Dandar that -- that you were going to get out of the 11 wrongful death case in August of -- of 2001, as this E-Mail 12 indicates? 13 A I believe I did, either, you know, in person or on 14 the phone. You know, Stacy Brooks and I were discussing it 15 with him on various occasions around about this time. 16 Q And so when did LMT finally dissolve, by the way? 17 A Mmm, I'm not sure. Sometime shortly after this, 18 you know. Before the end of the year, before the end of the 19 year 2001. 20 Q And the decision to dissolve LMT was whose 21 decision? Yours? Stacy Brooks'? Both of yours? 22 A I think Stacy and I both agreed that it had to be 23 done. 24 Q But even after LMT had closed down, did you 25 continue to provide funds to Mr. Dandar for the wrongful
1749 1 death litigation? 2 A I -- I did in early 2002; March 2002. 3 Q And that is the UBS check that we've talked about? 4 A The $250,000 one, yes. 5 Q Now, in your mind, the moneys that you provided to 6 Stacy Brooks, to Jesse Prince and to others, whether they 7 were working for Mr. Dandar or working over at the LMT, did 8 you believe that was to support the wrongful death case? 9 A Yes, I did. You know, not so much Ms. Brooks in 10 the latter part, because she was -- you know, she was not -- 11 you know, she was not very keen to be involved, anyway, you 12 know, from, say, like March 2001. I don't think she was 13 doing anything of support to the case. 14 Q But when Mr. Dandar, as the testimony indicated, 15 was paying, for instance, Mr. Prince, did you consider him 16 to be working for you -- that is, Mr. Prince to be working 17 for you during that period of time? 18 A When are we talking about? 19 Q During the period of time that Mr. Dandar was 20 paying the $5,000 a month, I think somebody has testified 21 to, to Mr. Prince to work at Mr. Dandar's office? 22 A Well, pretty much since 1998, you know, shortly 23 after Jesse Prince first came to see Stacy, he was supposed 24 to see me, as well, but I had to leave to go back to Boston. 25 And then I think he came -- pretty much from the middle of
1750 1 '98 on, you know, Jesse Prince was working for me. 2 Q And the moneys, whether they were paid by 3 Mr. Dandar or paid from you directly, did you -- in your 4 opinion, was the money coming from you for Mr. Prince? 5 A Well, there wasn't -- there is no doubt that that 6 is where it was coming from. 7 Q And do you know, sir, if -- to your knowledge, if 8 Jesse Prince has a personal grudge against David Miscavige 9 or Mike Rinder or the Church of Scientology? And you can 10 break that down however your knowledge is. 11 A I think he really hates David Miscavige a lot. 12 He -- you know, he -- he blames him for everything that has 13 basically happened to him after Jesse left Scientology. 14 I mean, Jesse at one stage told me that, you know, 15 the only time in his life that he felt he was really doing 16 something worthwhile was when he was -- you know, he was at 17 RTC. And he felt that Mr. Miscavige busted him from that 18 position and demeaned him by putting him in these roles as 19 gardeners and janitors and things like that. And he always 20 held a grudge about it. 21 I think with Mr. Rinder, it was different. 22 With -- I mean, Mr. Rinder, on at least one occasion, I 23 think maybe two, I'm not remembering the entirety of this 24 story -- but got him jobs after he had left because he was 25 having trouble. And, you know, they tried to help him out.
1751 1 And he got a job with -- I think the woman's name was 2 Hanson. 3 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I don't mean to interrupt, 4 but this is all hearsay. 5 THE COURT: Overruled. We have had more 6 hearsay in this case than I care to think about. 7 A And I have read -- there have been filings in this 8 case about Dana Hanson. And I have read those filings. I 9 think they were posted on the Internet. There were OW 10 write-ups by Jesse Prince and affidavits -- 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q My question, sir, was do you know -- 13 A That is what I'm trying to get at. 14 Q Oh. I'm sorry. 15 A In any case, Jesse -- Jesse screwed up in that 16 job. And drug use was the principal problem. Taking money 17 that was supposed to be used for the job and using it for 18 other things. And the woman got rid of Jesse. 19 And, somehow, Jesse blames Mike Rinder for having 20 gotten him involved in this job and getting him fired. I 21 mean, he thinks that -- that he didn't do anything wrong, 22 you know, that -- he's just out using drugs and -- and 23 having parties with the moneys that he's supposed to be 24 using to purchase pictures, and he believes that somehow 25 Mike Rinder is responsible for that.
1752 1 And I think you asked me about a third person? 2 Q I said or about the Church of Scientology, in 3 general. 4 A Oh. 5 Q And you know what -- 6 A That sort of is encapsulated in the other two, I 7 believe. 8 Q What was behind your decision to close LMT that 9 you've just told us about? 10 A Well, you know, Mr. Merrett, and Ms. Brooks 11 particularly, felt that that would sufficiently distance us 12 from the case to be no longer involved in it. And I thought 13 that was kind of naive because, you know, we were so deeply 14 involved in it, you know, in terms of discovery and all 15 of -- you know, and all that discovery entails, you know, 16 depositions, it just wasn't possible to extract yourself 17 from it by closing down LMT. Unless all of the parties sort 18 of disappeared from the face of the earth, we were still 19 going to be involved in it. 20 And we obviously still are. 21 Q You had mentioned to Judge Schaeffer in your 22 testimony -- actually, there was some back and forth about 23 legal harassment, illegal harassment. You mentioned 24 something about you felt that the "legal" harassment had put 25 pressure on you.
1753 1 MR. FUGATE: And I'm going to ask you, if I 2 may, Judge, if I can give him the time line that I 3 gave your Honor. I'm going through some of the 4 orders and just ask him to take a minute -- 5 THE COURT: Sure. 6 MR. FUGATE: -- and look at that. 7 THE COURT: I think I took mine into my office 8 because I thought I would take it home tonight, so I 9 don't have it. And I don't necessarily need another 10 one. But -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: Here. Is this it? 12 THE COURT: -- is this the thing you gave me in 13 the book? 14 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. And I have an 15 extra copy here. And it is not highlighted or 16 anything. It doesn't have my notes on it. And I'm 17 not going to ask about everything. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q If you'll just take a minute and read through 21 that, sir. 22 A Well, you know, I quickly looked -- it's a lot 23 longer than I thought. 24 Q It is. 25 A But let me just -- with regards to this, there
1754 1 is -- you know, there is a lot of stuff that is missing 2 here. I don't mean since what you have got. But -- 3 THE COURT: Well, wait a second. I think what 4 we have to do -- I don't know which question you're 5 going to ask but -- 6 MR. FUGATE: I was going to ask him to take a 7 look at it, and I was going to ask some specific 8 questions -- 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. FUGATE: -- about events. I just had it in 11 time line fashion, Judge, rather than go over all 12 creation about it. 13 THE COURT: I guess I was saying, I didn't know 14 what he was going to do, but normally the way things 15 go here, the lawyer asks the question and the 16 witness responds. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Well, you made mention in your testimony on 21 cross-examination as to having a concern about having to 22 respond to a subpoena duces tecum. Do you recall making 23 that comment in your testimony? 24 A Oh, could you be a little more specific about it? 25 Q Yes. Let me show you a copy -- and I'm not sure
1755 1 if this is in evidence. If it isn't, I'll -- I'll make 2 copies of it and get it in. 3 But let me just ask you to take a look at a copy 4 of a subpoena duces tecum for deposition and ask you if you 5 recognize the subpoena? 6 MR. FUGATE: And I'll, Judge, mark it whatever 7 our next number and get copies of it. 8 THE COURT: All right. Madam Clerk, number? 9 THE CLERK: 133. 10 A Yes, I do remember this one. 11 MR. FUGATE: I think I have copies of it, 12 Judge. I'll make it available. I am giving a copy 13 to Mr. Dandar, and I have some extra ones. 14 This will be Defendant's -- let me borrow the 15 stapler -- I apologize, I thought I had four 16 together. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q This May 22nd subpoena -- 22nd, 2001, if you'll 19 note the highlighted portion was calling for financial -- 20 all financial records. Is that correct? 21 A Mmm -- 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: 2000. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q 2000. I'm sorry. 25 A This is 2001.
1756 1 Q I'm sorry, I don't have it in front of me. I have 2 given everybody my copies. 3 A Yes, okay, I see the highlighted part starting on 4 Page 4. This was for "All documents relating to payments by 5 you or the Lisa McPherson Trust to Kennan Dandar, Thomas 6 Dandar or their law firm." 7 Q That is right. And is this at or about the time 8 that you were getting ready to go into deposition in the 9 Lisa McPherson case, the May deposition? 10 A Yes. I believe -- well, wait a minute. I'm not 11 sure. Was there -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. Excuse me, your Honor, 13 it is 2000. I'm trying to get -- 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q The subpoena is 2001? 16 A Right. 17 Q Now, is this the beginning of -- I'm getting back 18 to my track here -- is this the beginning, sir, of the track 19 of the motions to compel and motions to get you into 20 deposition? We've heard testimony in the cross-examination 21 that you didn't show up for a deposition, I believe, in 22 August. And then there were a series of motions that came 23 after that, that you see set out here? 24 A Mmm -- 25 Q On the time line?
1757 1 A Yeah. Yup, item number 5 on your time track 2 here -- time line. 3 Q Now, did you have a conversation with -- and 4 without getting into the detail of that conversation -- did 5 you have a conversation with Mr. Jonas that you have 6 referred to in this hearing about whether or not you needed 7 to comply with this subpoena when you came back to Florida? 8 And this, in point of time, is after the 9 deposition in September of 2001 in this wrongful death case 10 and after the deposition of October of 2001 -- 11 MR. FUGATE: I have the dates right now, Judge. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q -- in the breach case? I -- 14 THE COURT: In fairness, counsel, once you 15 start asking him about what his conversation was 16 about, you are asking him to waive the privilege. 17 MR. FUGATE: I don't mean to do that, Judge. 18 I'm sorry. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Did you have -- did you have the subpoena that is 21 in front of you now as Defendant's Exhibit 100 in front of 22 you and Mr. Jonas? 23 A I'm not sure whether I showed it to Mr. Jonas. 24 But I certainly had discussions concerning it with 25 Mr. Jonas.
1758 1 Q I don't want to get into the discussions. 2 A Okay. 3 Q I just want to know, is it after -- can you tell 4 us approximately when these discussions were in point of 5 time with what you have been talking about with the calls 6 and conversations with Mr. Dandar in February or March of 7 2002? 8 A It would be -- 9 THE COURT: I guess I'm just confused. You 10 started asking if it reflected something about the 11 check. That was 2000. 12 This is 2001. And now you're asking about 13 this, which is a 2002 conversation? 14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I had my deposition -- my 15 first deposition confused by date. I'm actually 16 asking about -- I tried to -- a point in time there 17 were two depositions that you have heard about -- 18 THE COURT: Right. 19 MR. FUGATE: -- in this hearing, in September 20 of 2001 and in October of 2001. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q After those depositions occurred, but before you 24 had the conversations with Mr. Dandar and talking about the 25 UBS checks, did you --
1759 1 A Yes, sir? 2 Q -- did you have conversations with Mr. Jonas about 3 compliance with the subpoena? I don't want to know what the 4 conversations were. 5 A Yes. 6 Q And is this subpoena the subpoena that you're 7 talking about having to come back to Florida and address 8 whenever you have to come back to Florida? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Now, prior to the deposition -- or, excuse me, 11 after your deposition in front of Mr. Moxon -- or deposition 12 taken by Mr. Moxon where you first took the Fifth 13 Amendment -- 14 A Yes? 15 Q -- do you recall that there were motions filed and 16 addressed to this Court about your invocation of the Fifth 17 Amendment? 18 A Right. 19 THE COURT: Prior to? 20 MR. FUGATE: No. After. 21 A Yeah. 22 MR. FUGATE: If I said prior -- 23 THE COURT: I thought you did. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, it's too late for me, Judge. 25 THE COURT: Maybe you didn't, but I thought you
1760 1 said prior to, and I was listening, then you talked 2 about -- 3 MR. FUGATE: You know, I very well could have. 4 Let me start all over again here. 5 THE COURT: It is late. 6 MR. FUGATE: It is. 7 THE COURT: We should have stopped before. 8 MR. WEINBERG: The problem is we work late, 9 too, and by this time we get tired. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'll try to finish this 11 little sequence, then we can stop. 12 THE COURT: Okay. I think we can. 13 MR. FUGATE: Let me just get my -- 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Do you recall that allegations -- so there is no 16 confusion here -- that allegations in the motion for 17 coercive sanctions that is reflected in the time line that 18 is filed, I believe, in -- I think it's the 28th of 19 September, 2001, do you recall in that getting a pleading 20 where the Church essentially said you may have a basis for 21 invoking your Fifth Amendment because you may be engaged 22 in -- and there is a whole series of things alleged -- I 23 think money laundering and I think witness tampering, I 24 think tax evasion and things of that nature? Do you 25 recall --
1761 1 A Yes. Yeah. 2 Q And so that there is no confusion in this hearing, 3 at that point in time back in September and in October of 4 2001, the Church was -- was obviously trying to get you to 5 provide bank records and answer questions about your 6 financial transactions with Mr. Dandar. Is that correct? 7 A That is for sure. Yes. 8 Q And, again, is it your testimony that -- that when 9 you met down in Florida on April 6 and whatever other days 10 it was and disclosed the UBS checks, that, to your knowledge 11 and to your belief, the Church knew nothing about those two 12 UBS checks, Swiss bank checks. Is that correct? 13 A Mr. Rinder and Mrs. Yingling certainly seemed very 14 surprised about it. And -- which led me to believe that 15 they were not aware of it. 16 Q And on all of the questions dealing with your 17 payments of money -- any money to Mr. Dandar, or Dandar & 18 Dandar, or Ken Dandar, you had taken the Fifth in both the 19 September deposition -- or asserted your Fifth Amendment 20 privilege in both the September depositions and the October 21 depositions, correct? 22 THE COURT: Apparently not, because you-all 23 gave -- I thought he had, too, but you gave me the 24 one sheet of paper that indicated that in one of 25 those depositions he did speak of it again.
1762 1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to ask about that 2 again. 3 THE WITNESS: Well -- 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q In questions from either Mr. Moxon or Mr. Rosen, 6 you basically said, "I don't want to answer these questions, 7 I assert my Fifth Amendment right." Is that correct? 8 A Well, yes, that is correct. And -- yes, go ahead. 9 Q And then do you recall Mr. Dandar asking you 10 questions on cross-examination and essentially saying, "You 11 haven't paid me any more than the $1,050,000, have you," and 12 then you answered those questions? Do you recall that? 13 A Well, I remember going -- taking -- asking for a 14 short break and taking Mr. Merrett out of the room. 15 Q To talk about whatever it was you were going to 16 do? 17 A Yeah. And, you know, I said I don't see how I can 18 answer these questions from him, not having -- 19 THE COURT: We're really going to have trouble 20 here, because if we're going to have some 21 discussions with some lawyers and not assert 22 privileges, then we're going to have to have a 23 waiver of the privileges. I mean, I don't want 24 to -- 25 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor.
1763 1 THE COURT: You can go there if you want to 2 because it is your privilege and I don't care, quite 3 frankly -- 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 THE COURT: -- if you break your privilege -- 6 MR. FUGATE: Let's leave it this way then. 7 THE WITNESS: I was concerned about the 8 questions. And I went back in and answered them. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Merrett and 11 Mr. Dandar had talked about whether or not you should answer 12 those questions? Do you know? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q But, in any event, you went out and talked to Mr. 15 Merrett and came back and answered the questions, whatever 16 was discussed? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And did you understand that in proceedings that 19 had taken place in front of this Court that you were going 20 to be compelled, when you came back to Florida, to answer 21 all of the questions that you took the Fifth Amendment on in 22 that proceeding? 23 A Yes. I understood that. 24 Q I think except for your tax returns, actually, if 25 I remember correctly.
1764 1 A Right. 2 THE COURT: So the record is clear, you took 3 the Fifth Amendment on anything dealing with money? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I believe that 5 is -- 6 THE COURT: And you made that statement, 7 whatever it is, we'll not go back and repeat it at 8 the beginning as to why it was, because it had to do 9 with this enterprise and you didn't want to discuss 10 any of these money issues? 11 THE WITNESS: That was -- you know, 12 following -- following the deposition in Boston in 13 like May, I believe, in the Caberta versus Heller 14 case, that was the strategy that we worked out with 15 Mr. Merrett as to how to deal with the questions 16 concerning money, is to assert the Fifth Amendment 17 privilege. 18 THE COURT: So it wasn't just checks to 19 Mr. Dandar. It was -- it had to do with any money 20 that had anything to do with those people and those 21 issues on that web, as you call it? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, no. The web was -- or that 23 chart was the excuse to talk about RICO, that we 24 were afraid of being prosecuted under RICO, that, 25 you know, the Church of Scientology -- it was, you
1765 1 know, an excuse, that chart. That is all it was. 2 It was a convenient excuse to use -- 3 THE COURT: To not talk about what? 4 THE WITNESS: Money. 5 THE COURT: To anybody? 6 THE WITNESS: To anybody. 7 THE COURT: Okay. That is all I am trying to 8 establish. 9 In other words, you were taking the Fifth 10 Amendment as to money to anybody? 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 THE COURT: And you needed that excuse for 13 what, I guess, is what I'm confused about. 14 THE WITNESS: Just to keep everything private. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Well, let me ask you one question about that 18 chart, and then I'm going to ask the Judge, if you don't 19 mind, if we can break, because I'm getting tired. I think 20 perhaps you are. If not, I know I am. 21 The chart -- by the way, I had a question on my 22 stray note questions back here a while ago -- that 23 Mr. Dandar has shown you, and I think it's an exhibit now, 24 was that chart actually posted by you or Ms. Brooks on the 25 LMT website and displayed to the alt.religion.scientology
1766 1 community? 2 A I don't know whether it was posted on the LMT 3 website. But I think I posted it to alt.binary.scientology. 4 THE COURT: Is that another site? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, when you have pictures, you 6 are not -- alt.religion.scientology is just for text 7 messages. Alt.binary.Scientology is where you post 8 pictures. I believe that I posted it to that. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q So it wasn't something that you were trying to 11 conceal from anybody else, it was something that you were 12 putting out on the Internet for -- for what purpose at the 13 time you put it out? 14 A Well, you know, I thought it was amusing. 15 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I am going to move into the 16 other area. 17 THE COURT: We'll quit for the day. 18 I still want to make sure that I understand the 19 excuse. There is -- there is -- I -- obviously when 20 I read your taking of the Fifth Amendment, you will 21 recall, when I required you to answer those 22 questions, I said, however, I would allow you to 23 continue to assert your Fifth Amendment as it 24 pertained to income tax matters. 25 THE WITNESS: Right. I remember that.
1767 1 THE COURT: Okay. And I don't know that that 2 was so apparent to anyone else in reading that 3 deposition, because you had made your announcement 4 at the beginning as to why you were taking -- what 5 you were going to take the Fifth about, and you did 6 throughout. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 THE COURT: Except when maybe Mr. Dandar asked 9 the questions and you went out and spoke with your 10 lawyer? 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 THE COURT: Okay? So when you said you were 13 using it as an excuse, was the excuse the same 14 income tax that I'm allowing you to take the Fifth 15 Amendment on? Or was it some other excuse? 16 Because, if so, perhaps I -- maybe I read 17 things into that that I really shouldn't have, and 18 maybe I should have had you answer them all. 19 It seemed fairly obvious to me there was a 20 possibility you wished to preserve your Fifth 21 Amendment privilege as to income tax matters which I 22 was allowing you to keep and, yet, answer the 23 questions as I thought they might pertain to this 24 case. 25 THE WITNESS: Right. Well, yeah, income tax
1768 1 was -- was a clear area which I was anxious to keep 2 my Fifth Amendment privilege. 3 But when I said that, you know, that this was 4 used as an excuse, it was used as an excuse to keep 5 Scientology from getting into discovery of these 6 finances of mine and Stacy Brooks' personally 7 because of this RICO chart. 8 You know, what had happened is that Scientology 9 tried to get me prosecuted in Germany for, you know, 10 trying to corrupt a foreign official. You know, I 11 believe they were involved in this Nigerian thing, 12 trying to get me prosecuted for that, you know. And 13 then in the past there had been these incidents 14 involving, you know, battery charges and, you know, 15 trials for battery. 16 THE COURT: In Nigeria, the allegation was that 17 you were somehow or another in this debt retirement, 18 were somehow involved with the heads of the Nigeria 19 people on the fraud of the people? That is some 20 very oversimplification. 21 THE WITNESS: But it was in a time period I 22 wasn't working there. That is the problem. 23 THE COURT: I didn't say it was true, 24 Mr. Minton, I said this was the -- 25 THE WITNESS: The allegation.
1769 1 THE COURT: And it was your belief it was the 2 Church of Scientology -- we'll call them -- 3 operatives, that they were over there stirring this 4 pot? 5 THE WITNESS: That is right. So -- 6 THE COURT: So you had this concern that -- 7 that this idea of being prosecuted in Germany for 8 corrupting a foreign official, this idea of Nigeria 9 and whatever in the world that was all about -- 10 THE WITNESS: Right? 11 THE COURT: -- and now here they are trying to 12 get more information on your money. And that was a 13 concern. Is that it? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, what they have 15 basically stated over -- over time was that, you 16 know, that they were going to get me put in jail, 17 you know. And this -- and this legal stuff 18 beginning in 2001, you know, by and large, it got 19 really concentrated from about the middle of the 20 year on. You know, there was a lot of talk about 21 jail in -- in these documents, you know, coercive 22 sanctions against me and Stacy Brooks, you know. 23 And I believed that -- you know, that their 24 goal was to continue this legal assault until they 25 could find a way to get me in jail.
1770 1 THE COURT: And as I recall having read all of 2 your depositions, those taken by Mr. Rosen and those 3 taken by Mr. Moxon, on more than one occasion RICO 4 was dropped by them, and on more than one occasion 5 money laundering was dropped by them, and on more 6 than one occasion income tax evasion was dropped by 7 them. True? 8 THE WITNESS: That is probably true. 9 THE COURT: So all three of those things must 10 have been of some concern to you if all your money 11 matters that you were hiding, perjuring yourself 12 about or whatever it was, came out. Was that the 13 excuse, or what? I mean -- 14 THE WITNESS: What do you mean, the excuse? 15 THE COURT: Well, you said this was an excuse. 16 And I think you said later here that the excuse was 17 RICO. I'm not sure if that is what you meant. But 18 you later said you didn't want Scientology to know 19 about your money matters. 20 THE WITNESS: That's correct. I mean, I don't 21 think they are inconsistent. The -- the chart that 22 they introduced in this bankruptcy hearing here in 23 Florida was a -- there was a guy in California -- 24 you know, they were involved in this bankruptcy 25 proceeding against him, and they were trying to get
1771 1 depositions out of Stacy Brooks and myself here. 2 And Mr. Rosen introduced this chart. 3 So, you know, I posted this chart on the 4 Internet. But what happened after this deposition 5 in the Heller versus Caberta case in Boston where I 6 used the Fifth Amendment, you know, unconnected to 7 any of this, you know, this is when Mr. Merrett and 8 I discussed using this chart as an excuse to be able 9 to take the Fifth Amendment, to be able to invoke 10 the Fifth Amendment, and to appear that there was 11 real threat of a RICO case by the Church of 12 Scientology. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q To avoid answering questions about financing of 15 this case? 16 A To avoid answering questions -- 17 Q The wrongful death case? 18 A Right, to avoid answering questions, and other 19 money matters. 20 THE COURT: And other money matters? 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 THE COURT: The deal is, Mr. Fugate, I 23 understand where you want to go. But the real 24 concern here -- it's as clear to me as a bell -- I 25 have read it all. His concern was he was fearful
1772 1 about racketeering, money laundering, income tax 2 evasion and you now added perjury. 3 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I wasn't in any way 4 believing that Scientology was going to pursue a 5 RICO case. I didn't believe that. 6 THE COURT: Well, then were your concerns money 7 laundering, income tax and perjury? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, perjury was a -- a clear 9 concern. Income tax was a clear concern. I had no 10 concerns in any other areas. 11 THE COURT: And money laundering? 12 THE WITNESS: I didn't have any concerns -- 13 THE COURT: So you had concerns in two areas 14 then. This record will speak for itself what has 15 been said. But I want to make sure I understand you 16 now. 17 Now you are saying you had concerns in two 18 areas. RICO was not it. You were concerned in 19 income tax evasion and perjury? 20 THE WITNESS: No, in regards to income tax at 21 all. 22 THE COURT: Income tax at all? Okay. And -- 23 THE WITNESS: And perjury. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And jail.
1773 1 THE COURT: And jail? Well, I presume either 2 of those things could bring on jail. 3 THE WITNESS: Potentially. 4 THE COURT: Potentially. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q But of immediate concern, would it be fair to say 7 it was the contempt proceedings that you were concerned 8 about in this court and in Judge Baird's court for not 9 answering questions about those very things? 10 A You know, yes, those were of concern, but the -- 11 the greatest concern of all was the unrelenting nature of 12 the Church of Scientology's efforts to use the legal system 13 to come after me. 14 You know, I saw no possibility of it stopping. 15 You know, Stacy and I both described this as it was like the 16 Terminator was after you. And we could see no end to it. 17 MR. FUGATE: That is all of the questions I 18 have for tonight. 19 THE COURT: That is all of the questions I 20 have. So shall we quit for the night? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 22 THE COURT: All right. We'll see you all 23 tomorrow at 9 o'clock. 24 MR. DANDAR: Does this mean he's finished with 25 Mr. Minton?
1774 1 THE COURT: I don't think so. He just quit for 2 the night. 3 MR. DANDAR: I just wanted to clarify that. 4 (WHEREUPON, Court stands adjourned at 5:10 p.m.) 5 ______________________________________ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1775 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 29th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25