IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 14 TESTIMONY OF CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG ROBERT MINTON SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 30, 2002. Morning Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 Volume 14, Page 1777 APPEARANCES: MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR MR. THOMAS DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, NY 10003 Counsel for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. Attorney for Robert Minton
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1778 1 (The proceedings began at 9:05 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Good morning. 3 SEVERAL SPEAKERS: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: I have some good news and bad 5 news. Now, the bad news -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Tell us the bad news first. 7 THE COURT: The bad news is that my JA's 8 momma is dying, and she got a call last night. She 9 didn't come home right away, so we left at 3:30 this 10 morning to get that process going. If her mom passes 11 away, which is certainly expected, I will go up for 12 the funeral. I don't have a clue when that is, you 13 know. I don't know -- so that's kind of up in the 14 air. 15 The other part of that bad news is that, 16 while I can indeed work the computer and I can type on 17 it, I'm not as good as she. So those orders that I 18 told you I was frantically trying to get all of them 19 done for you all will be delayed. I'll do the best I 20 can. But, you know, I may or may not get them done. 21 So, you know, they're all in the kind of process of 22 drafts, and we'll just see how that works. So if you 23 don't get them right away, don't be surprised. 24 As I said, I -- I do know how to work Word 25 myself a little bit, but I don't know how to do any of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1779 1 the formatting. I just know how to type, and then she 2 tends to all that. So you may not see any orders for 3 a while. 4 We gave her a return flight next Friday, and 5 that's the gist. It's up in the air. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Where does she live? 7 THE COURT: She lives in -- she's one of 8 eleven kids. So all the kids are coming. And she 9 lives in Somerset, Kentucky, which is a little old 10 town. She flies in to Lexington, and then someone 11 will pick her up at 9 o'clock this morning and 12 hopefully take her to the hospital, although she tells 13 me her mom might not make it through the night. 14 But in any event, that kind of leaves next 15 week in somewhat of a -- of course, she's gone, so I 16 can't say, "Call my office." So Peggy Hughes, who is 17 Judge Rondolino's JA -- and he is at 582-7702. But 18 you can dial my number because she'll be answering 19 that phone. 20 On Monday, for example -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: We'll be off. 22 THE COURT: Yes, you're going to be off, but 23 if you want to know what's happening Tuesday -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 25 THE COURT: -- then you can call Peggy. And
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1780 1 she'll tell you, "No, Judge Schaeffer is not going to 2 be here," or she can say, "Judge Schaeffer is going to 3 be here." 4 So I might know something Friday. I mean, I 5 expect her to call me tonight. So tomorrow I might 6 know something. But I might not. So your best bet is 7 just to call tomorrow. If you don't hear anything, 8 call Monday. And we'll just play it by ear, okay? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 10 THE COURT: Let's see. That's the bad news. 11 I got home last night, decided whatever I was talking 12 about at about 4:30 I was talking about wrong, and I 13 got it right in my own head. So I figure you all kind 14 of forgive me after 4:00, that you know I tend to -- 15 these days are very tedious for me. 16 I try to make it clear to you all that these 17 types of allegations that fly both ways are very 18 painful for a judge to have to sit day in and day out 19 and hear it. And I hate to hear about lawyers and 20 stuff like that. 21 So they're painful, which is probably the 22 reason why I'm being as good as I am, I hope, about 23 letting everybody fully do this, because these are 24 serious allegations. But they're painful for a judge 25 to sit on.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1781 1 So while I may sit here and try to be light 2 for all of us from time to time, it doesn't mean that 3 they're not very painful, aggravating, all those 4 things. And so sometimes it's -- you know, it's not 5 that I'm not mentally alert at 4 o'clock; it's just 6 that I've heard about all I can handle at 4 o'clock. 7 So anyway, I got it straightened out in my 8 own head. So as I said, I think I was probably wrong 9 about the fat man and the check and all that; but, you 10 know, I got it in my head. 11 Now, let's see. Oh, I found my little 12 thing. Remember I couldn't find it? Now I found it. 13 When I was reading this weekend, one of the 14 things -- 15 Oh, and by the way, Mr. Howie, on second 16 thought, I will give you your opportunity to make your 17 proffer at the end of Mr. Minton's testimony, assuming 18 it's not going to take a day. 19 MR. HOWIE: I don't think it'll be very long 20 at all, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Then in that case, go 22 ahead. You know, I don't -- I don't want to preclude 23 you from filing an affidavit if you think that's the 24 more appropriate way to go. If you want to make some 25 proffer here and it's not going to take too long,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1782 1 that's fine. 2 MR. HOWIE: If I can speak to my client on 3 that -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. HOWIE: -- and then I'll advise the 6 Court. 7 THE COURT: Well, I just want him to 8 understand, at 4:30, I didn't think it was a very good 9 idea. At 3 o'clock this morning, or whatever time it 10 was, I decided it was fine. 11 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. 12 THE COURT: I will afford him that. 13 When I was reading over the weekend, I made 14 some notes, not the least of which is I -- I checked 15 "percipient" out, ran it through the dictionary and 16 tried to figure out what all that was about. 17 So Mr. -- Mr. Prince likes to use that word 18 a lot, "percipient." Tell him I hope he knows what it 19 means, because I do. And it took me a great deal of 20 time to logically go through "percipient" and what I 21 thought "percipient" knowledge might be and 22 "discernment." And what I figure is percipient -- no 23 percipient knowledge in reality is no knowledge. But 24 we'll have to get through that, because I don't know 25 what he means. He says it all the time.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1783 1 MR. DANDAR: I think he means personal 2 eyewitness knowledge. 3 THE COURT: Well, it's -- we're going to get 4 it down. "Percipient" doesn't mean that. 5 "Percipient" means capable or characterized by 6 perception. 7 "Perception" means observation, a mental 8 image, concept, appreciation, and is a synonym for 9 "discernment." 10 So if I've got no percipient knowledge, it 11 would seem therefore to me no observable knowledge or 12 no conceptual knowledge or no appreciable knowledge or 13 no discernible knowledge. But if Mr. Prince uses it, 14 it's probably no observable knowledge, no firsthand 15 knowledge. 16 "Discernment" is the quality of being able 17 to grasp and comprehend what is obscure. And 18 "discernment" stresses accuracy. 19 This is always good for us. You know, we 20 have to learn things. This is -- I mean, I've heard 21 "percipient" used, but, you know, I never really felt 22 like I really needed to know what it meant. 23 "Discern" means to detect with the eyes, to 24 detect with the senses other than vision, to come to 25 know or recognize mentally. And the adjective is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1784 1 "discernment." 2 So the way I figure is no percipient 3 knowledge means either no observable knowledge, no 4 firsthand knowledge, or, the truth of the matter is, 5 no knowledge. 6 Anyway, you can tell him that I will want to 7 know what that means to him, because I know what it 8 means in the dictionary. 9 MR. DANDAR: And I don't think he's the only 10 one in this case that's used that word. 11 THE COURT: I did notice somebody else used 12 it. But the deal is, when somebody uses it over and 13 over, I just have to know what it is. So I spent a 14 lot of time with the dictionary this weekend. 15 But the other thing is that I was kind of 16 interested, one of the exhibits to somebody -- 17 somebody's filing was a state attorney's report. 18 That's the first time I'd seen it, like a 25-page 19 report. 20 Lee, I think it might have been something 21 you used. 22 MR. FUGATE: We got that in the Freedom of 23 Information Act request after the conclusion of the 24 case, and I think it was that which was put into the 25 public record. And it's attached --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1785 1 THE COURT: Well, it was attached to 2 something you filed. 3 MR. FUGATE: To the memorandum of law -- 4 THE COURT: So I read it, and I have two 5 questions. One was the last thing that was on there 6 was a recommendation. I never saw it. It was blank, 7 so I didn't see that. 8 More importantly, I assumed that that was 9 the situation at the beginning, not at the end, 10 because there's nothing in there about -- 11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 12 THE COURT: -- the medical examiner or what 13 have you. 14 I kind of enjoyed reading it, because it 15 looked to me like Judge Crow -- "Judge Crow"; he would 16 be a pretty good judge -- but he was sort of laying 17 out for his boss the pluses, the minuses of the this 18 and the that. It's always good for me to see somebody 19 who is trying to be objective, saying this was a 20 problem, that's a problem. So I thought it was 21 helpful. 22 I wondered if his second report had been 23 released. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 25 THE COURT: And I don't know --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1786 1 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, he really -- my 2 recollection is, I think -- Doug Crow at the time that 3 the case was dismissed -- it was nolle pros'd, is that 4 what you're asking? 5 THE COURT: Yes. I think there was a big 6 report. 7 MR. WEINBERG: There was a letter -- there 8 was like a letter to Bernie McCabe -- 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: -- sort of a memo -- 11 THE COURT: I thought if you all had that, 12 there might be more information in there about -- I 13 mean, as I said, I found it quite helpful because it 14 was a fair assessment of the pluses and minuses of the 15 allegations. And some of the allegations, at least to 16 some extent, mirror Count I. So if you've got it and 17 if you don't mind if I take a look at it, I might want 18 to take a look at it. 19 As I said, the recommendations -- Crow's 20 recommendations from his first report, I don't know if 21 they ever were released. They might have been 22 considered work product, not to be released. They 23 were not in the submission. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, he kept those back. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1787 1 MR. WEINBERG: But the last thing he did, I 2 think he faxed it to the press on the day of the nolle 3 pros or right before the nolle pros. 4 THE COURT: I've never seen it. If it's out 5 there and you have it somewhere -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Somewhere. 7 THE COURT: It's not urgent, but I just made 8 a mental note that I kind of enjoyed reading his 9 report. As I would have expected, Mr. Crow was very 10 thorough and very -- I thought he assessed things 11 pretty well. 12 The next is all this "percipient" business. 13 And everything else, I've dealt with in one fashion or 14 another or it's something I have to deal with. 15 So I'm glad I found this. I was most 16 concerned that I couldn't find it. Then I found it, 17 and that's that. 18 Let's see. I don't think I took anything 19 home. If I did, I didn't read it because we had kind 20 of an emergency. If there was anything else I was 21 supposed to read last night, I didn't. I'm ready to 22 have Mr. Minton back on the stand. 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I know you're not going 24 to be reading much, but you asked for the press copies 25 of the hearing?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1788 1 THE COURT: Oh, yes. 2 MR. FUGATE: And I've got those. 3 THE COURT: Wonderful. I will take them 4 home. I won't guarantee you I'll read them all at one 5 sitting. But I honestly can't remember -- this is so 6 long and involved that I cannot remember things that 7 were said and could become important. 8 Thank you. 9 MR. FUGATE: Are we ready? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 I didn't want you all to think I was still 12 confused like I was last night. I'm not. 13 MR. FUGATE: It's okay. I am, Judge. 14 THE COURT: You know sooner or later I get 15 these things straight. 16 Okay. Mr. Fugate, continue. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION OF ROBERT S. MINTON (RESUMED) 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q May it please the Court. Good morning, 20 Mr. Minton. 21 A Good morning. 22 THE WITNESS: Good morning. 23 THE COURT: Good morning. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q I'm going to go back in time a little bit and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1789 1 actually back to 1997 and ask you, do you recall in 1997 2 awarding to Mr. Dandar the FACTNet Man of the Year Award? 3 A I recall awarding it -- I mean, giving him the 4 award, but I'm not certain of the year, though. 5 MR. FUGATE: Okay. May I approach, your 6 Honor? 7 THE COURT: You may. 8 MR. DANDAR: Outside cross-examination. 9 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this is going to be 11 marked as Defendant's Exhibit 134, Composite A, B, and 12 C. There's two photographs. 13 MR. WEINBERG: What's the exhibit number? 14 MR. FUGATE: 134 A, B, and C. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q I'll show you what's been marked for 17 identification as Defendant's Exhibit 134 A, and there are 18 two photos. And I would ask you to look at 134 A, B, and C 19 and see if you can identify those, sir. 20 THE COURT: What was the number again? 21 MR. FUGATE: 134, Composite A, B, and C. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 A Yes, sir. You wanted me to identify the 24 photographs? 25 BY MR. FUGATE:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1790 1 Q First I wanted -- does the award there refresh 2 your recollection as to the year of the award? 3 A Yes. Yes, it does. 4 Q And can you identify -- and is that the award as 5 it was posted on the FACTNet Web site? 6 A Yes, I believe it is. 7 Q Or a copy of it? 8 A I believe it is, yes. 9 Q And do you recognize the two photos? 10 A Yes. It says on there the names, yes. Yes, I 11 recognize them. 12 Q We always stick names -- 13 MR. DANDAR: I object, because it's apparent 14 the photos don't go with the Web site. They're just 15 added on. 16 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q There's obviously a photograph of Mr. Dandar and 19 a man with his back to the camera. Can you identify who 20 that is and where this award was given? 21 THE COURT: With his back to the camera? 22 A The man -- 23 MR. FUGATE: There's a man with his back to 24 the camera. It's the same fellow that's in the next 25 picture.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1791 1 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 2 A That's Jeff Jacobsen, Mr. Dandar at the podium 3 there with the microphones, and there's a lady there to 4 his -- off to his right, whose name is Birgitta -- yes. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q And -- 7 A And then in the other picture, it's me shaking 8 hands with Jeff Jacobsen. 9 Q And is that a photo also taken at the awards 10 ceremony? 11 A Yes, it was. 12 Q And was it a Co-Man of the Year, Mr. Dandar and 13 Mr. Jacobsen? 14 A Yes, it was. 15 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would move into 16 evidence 134 A, B, and C. 17 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Now, the award was for Mr. Jacobsen and 20 Mr. Dandar in their work in the Lisa McPherson case. Is 21 that correct? 22 A Well, for Mr. Dandar, yes. For Mr. Jacobsen, it 23 related to him, you know, putting up the first Web site 24 about Lisa McPherson, you know, discovering the Clearwater 25 police report that mentioned the address of the Fort
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1792 1 Harrison Hotel, and then -- 2 Q Essentially discovering the Lisa McPherson -- 3 what became of the Lisa McPherson case? 4 A That's right. 5 Q And is this the same Jeff Jacobsen that later you 6 employed to work at LMT? 7 A Yes, that's correct. 8 Q And is it the same Jeff Jacobsen that was the one 9 that maintained the library that we heard some testimony 10 about in the cross-examination? 11 A Yes, that's the same person. 12 Q And the -- it's a 1997 award. Do you recall 13 approximately when the awards were? 14 A They were in December, around the time of a 15 picket. 16 Q So if it's a picket vigil, would that refresh 17 your recollection? 18 A A picket and vigil, yes. 19 Q Would that be around about December 5th? If 20 that's the anniversary date each year of Lisa McPherson's 21 death? 22 MR. DANDAR: Objection, leading. 23 A Well -- 24 THE COURT: Yes, that's -- 25 BY MR. FUGATE:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1793 1 Q It was in conjunction -- the award was given in 2 conjunction with a picket, slash, vigil? 3 A Yes. The exact date I don't remember because, 4 you know, it depended on when the -- usually the 5 picket/vigil was on the weekend, and, you know, I don't 6 know in '97 whether the 5th fell on a weekend or whether it 7 was on a Tuesday or Thursday. But either the weekend 8 before or the weekend after, or if the 5th was on the 9 weekend, yes, this was all connected with the same event. 10 Q And in the photograph there, there's a bank of 11 microphones in front of Mr. Dandar. Do you remember what 12 was happening when the award was given? 13 A Yes. There were -- you know, there were a number 14 of press people who were invited to the event, and 15 Mr. Dandar to my recollection gave a briefing on the status 16 of the case at that stage. 17 MR. FUGATE: And do you -- may I approach 18 the witness, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: You may. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q We've already testified -- heard testimony in 22 your direct and your cross about the first amended 23 complaint. Can I ask you to look at the certificate copy 24 and see if that refreshes your recollection as to what day 25 the first amended complaint was filed in this case, the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1794 1 wrongful death case? 2 A The 4th of December, 1997. 3 Q And this is the complaint that Mr. Dandar asked 4 you to find the word "murder" in? 5 A Yes, that's the one. 6 Q And you did find the word "murder" in there, as I 7 recall? 8 A Right. It was in the section concerning an 9 introspection rundown. 10 Q And, sir, if you look at your 93 series of 11 checks, Defendant's Exhibit 93, do you see a check in 1997 12 to Mr. Dandar? 13 THE COURT: Haven't we been through these 14 checks? 15 MR. FUGATE: Judge, it's fine. They'll 16 speak for themselves. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. FUGATE: I'll move along. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. You don't want me to 20 look for this? 21 MR. FUGATE: No. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Next I'm going to show you what Mr. Dandar showed 25 you as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 57.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1795 1 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 MR. FUGATE: I've got a courtesy copy. It's 4 already in evidence. 5 THE COURT: Okay. I'm probably going to 6 give it back or throw it -- 7 MR. FUGATE: That's fine. Throw it in 8 the -- 9 THE COURT: -- in the wastebasket. 10 MR. FUGATE: -- wastebasket. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q And I represent to you that this is Plaintiff's 13 Exhibit No. 57, a November 1999 post of yours. And if you 14 go down to the highlighted section there -- 15 A Just -- 16 Q The paragraph -- 17 A Yes. I'm sorry. I was just trying to see what 18 the subject was there. 19 Q I'm sorry. Take your time. 20 A Okay. I'm down into the third paragraph, with 21 the highlighted part. 22 Q Do you see there where in this statement that 23 you're issuing, you indicate that the deathbed request by 24 Fannie to Ken Dandar that she wanted Ken to let the world 25 know what Scientology did to Lisa? Do you see that you've
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1796 1 indicated that there? 2 A Yes, I see that. 3 Q And had you had discussions with Mr. Dandar about 4 his having a video and audiotape of his last communications 5 with Fannie McPherson when he went out to see her in Texas? 6 A Well, before answering that, just let me point 7 out again that this is something that I think came off of 8 the -- I think this is something that came off the Web 9 site. 10 Q I believe that's how it was identified. 11 A Right. But, yes, he had talked about an 12 audiotape. I don't think he ever mentioned a videotape to 13 me. 14 Q Had you -- had he ever given you the opportunity 15 to listen to the audiotape? 16 A No. 17 Q Had you ever seen or heard either of these 18 things, these videos or audios? 19 A Well, I don't think he mentioned a video, and, 20 no, I didn't hear the audio. 21 Q So this is something Mr. Dandar said, but you 22 never heard the tape? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q Now -- 25 THE COURT: Do you want this back or shall I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1797 1 just -- since I have one? 2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, to tell you the 3 truth, I was looking and my eyes haven't caught up 4 with me yet. I don't think that we have marked or -- 5 have marked the lawsuit that was served on Stacy 6 Brooks, but I'd like to -- if it hasn't been, I'll 7 give everybody a copy, and I'd like to go through that 8 with Mr. Minton. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. FUGATE: Now -- 11 THE COURT: I have it up here somewhere. Do 12 I have another copy of it? Just a courtesy to look at 13 while you're doing it. 14 MR. FUGATE: It'll be marked as 139. I 15 believe we had it marked. 16 THE COURT: You did, and I've read it. 17 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 18 THE COURT: And it's here. 19 MR. FUGATE: If you have a pen there, this 20 will be Defendant's 139. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Let me get it out here. 22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, although you read this 23 document, I object on the grounds of relevancy. It's 24 not part of any motion. And Mr. Lirot is not here, 25 and this is his work product.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1798 1 THE COURT: Well, it's a filed lawsuit. You 2 can't really have a work product privilege. 3 MR. DANDAR: No, I mean it's his work -- his 4 client, his knowledge. I haven't read this. I don't 5 even know what it says. But it has nothing to do with 6 the motions that are pending before you. 7 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if it does or 8 not, so we'll have to hear what the questions are. I 9 know that it has something to do with The Profit, and 10 I know that The Profit is alleged, at least, to 11 somehow be related. 12 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to tie it up, Judge, 13 and it goes to the cross-examination. 14 THE COURT: Okay. I'll do this for you, 15 Mr. Dandar. I understand that this is Mr. Lirot's 16 business. I mean, he -- I can't help it. If he's not 17 here, he's not here. I can't wait because he wants to 18 go do something else. I do understand. 19 But, you know, if he gets back before 20 Mr. Minton is off the stand or if Mr. Minton [sic] 21 comes back ahead of time and you want to have him ask 22 some questions at that time, you know, we'll allow 23 that, even if it's out of order. 24 But as I said, I can't -- Mr. Lirot has been 25 gone more than he's been here ever since I said you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1799 1 can go ahead and handle the questioning. That's fine, 2 but, you know, we can't wait for Mr. Lirot. 3 MR. FUGATE: I think that my questions will 4 show that that's not going to be necessary. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Yesterday in cross-examination, Mr. Minton, you 8 indicated to Mr. Dandar that the -- the film, The Profit, 9 was intended to be a parody or a jab at Scientology. Is 10 that correct, sir? 11 A I guess that's a mild characterization of what I 12 said, yes. 13 Q And I think you also indicated that one of the -- 14 one of the things that the film depicted was -- and 15 intended to depict -- was a piece about alleging or showing 16 that David Miscavige killed L. Ron Hubbard. Do you recall 17 that? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 Q And at the time -- 20 THE COURT: By the way, I didn't pick that 21 up. I mean, this fellow who was the star is not a 22 good person -- 23 MR. FUGATE: No. I'm asking him if that's 24 what he said yesterday. 25 THE COURT: I just wanted you to know when I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1800 1 read this, I did not pick -- I realized what was 2 happening, but I didn't pick up what that must look 3 like to a Scientologist, a person in the Church, they 4 would understand -- as I told you, they would 5 understand this a lot more. Most citizens wouldn't 6 still be there in this movie. 7 MR. DANDAR: Object to the leading nature. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Mr. Minton, was the purpose back in 2000 -- was 11 one of the purposes again to try to create turmoil within 12 the Church by releasing or producing this movie? 13 MR. DANDAR: Leading. 14 THE COURT: See, it's not leading, because 15 he could say yes or no. Leading suggests the answer. 16 MR. DANDAR: But I think he is suggesting 17 the answer. 18 THE COURT: No, he's not. He's saying "was 19 one of the purposes." He can say no. He can say 20 that. 21 A Yes. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q And in 19 -- directing your attention, sir, back 24 to 1999 and 2000, you've testified about the critic 25 community and the climate that you were operating in.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1801 1 There was apparently no concern about making allegations 2 about people killing Scientologists on the orders of other 3 people within Scientology. Is that a fair statement? 4 A I'm sorry, I didn't follow that -- 5 Q All right. 6 A -- question. 7 Q Well, if the parody that you've described in 8 cross-examination depicted Mr. Miscavige killing L. Ron 9 Hubbard, my question is, was that sort of the attitude that 10 you and the critic community had in 1999, 2000, that those 11 sorts of allegations could be made and that's what you were 12 looking to do? I think you've -- 13 A Well, just to -- 14 THE COURT: He may not have been any part of 15 the -- did you write any of this? 16 THE WITNESS: No. I discussed -- 17 THE COURT: Have you seen it? 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: But I did discuss -- while 21 Peter Alexander was writing the script for this, we 22 had numerous discussions. 23 A But, I mean, as far as the critic community is 24 concerned, as I said, this -- this theory that, you know, 25 concerning Mr. Miscavige being responsible for the death of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1802 1 L. Ron Hubbard was something that Vaughn Young came up 2 with. And it was used by Graham Berry to try -- in 3 connection with these copyright cases -- to try to attack 4 the entire copyright structure of Scientology by saying 5 that David Miscavige killed L. Ron Hubbard and the transfer 6 of these copyrights was done fraudulently; that L. Ron 7 Hubbard didn't sign this, this was all forged by 8 Mr. Miscavige and notarized ultimately by Mr. Starkey, I 9 believe. I don't remember whether it was Mr. Starkey, but 10 somebody -- 11 Q And part of -- 12 A -- an attorney, I believe. 13 Q And part of the purpose of the FACTNet litigation 14 that you were funding was to forward this agenda. Is that 15 correct, sir? 16 A Well, it was -- you know, there was clearly an 17 attempt to go after the copyrights of Scientology, you 18 know, the scriptures of Scientology, and to have those as 19 much as possible in the public domain so that Scientology 20 would lose the copyright. 21 Q I think you mentioned turmoil. One of the ideas 22 was turmoil within the Church? 23 A Well, that would relate more specifically to 24 Miscavige and the attempt to, you know, paint him as a 25 responsible party for something that Scientologists would
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1803 1 find extremely offensive and therefore force him into a 2 position of being removed as head of the Church of 3 Scientology and perhaps more -- you know, the thought was 4 that perhaps, you know, kinder, gentler people from the way 5 that Mr. Miscavige was viewed would come in and take over 6 the Church. 7 Q Now, going to The Profit itself -- and I'm going 8 to get back to the lawsuit. 9 THE COURT: Can I ask a question? 10 MR. FUGATE: Sure. 11 THE COURT: How would I know -- and I know 12 more about this case than the average citizens would 13 know. Now, I'm trying to think of it. The character 14 of L. Ron Hubbard was fairly obvious -- I mean, the 15 parody there. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 THE COURT: This fellow was somebody that 18 was sitting down, almost looked like a bag man to me. 19 He was kind of sitting down reading the -- 20 THE WITNESS: Reading the book. 21 THE COURT: -- the autobiography or 22 whatever. It was the secret book. 23 THE WITNESS: Right. 24 THE COURT: Remember? At the end, he pushed 25 the stuff up, so he just got it back. It never dawned
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1804 1 on me. Really, it didn't. I mean, I'm sitting here 2 thinking what -- if that exposed David Miscavige, that 3 guy didn't seem to have anything near the power of 4 this -- that David Miscavige would have had at the 5 time of L. Ron Hubbard's life. He seemed like a bag 6 fellow, somebody coming to get the money. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, again, you know, I'm not 8 a Church of Scientology historian, but my 9 understanding of it was at some stage before -- before 10 Mr. Hubbard died that Mr. Miscavige was one of 11 Mr. Hubbard's -- well, was the key messenger, which is 12 a position in Scientology, who basically communicated 13 between L. Ron Hubbard and the rest of the Church. He 14 was the link. 15 And, you know, this person's name in the 16 movie was -- in the original script, it was going to 17 be David Savage. But for concern that that was a bit 18 too close to the name, his name in the final version 19 was Mitch Cabot; you know, not Miscavige, but Mitch 20 Cabot. 21 THE COURT: I didn't pick that up either. 22 All right. I'm just telling you all that I 23 didn't pick up that that character was supposed to be 24 David Miscavige. He was a bad fellow, but, I mean, I 25 didn't pick up that that was David Miscavige.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1805 1 THE WITNESS: Well -- 2 THE COURT: Whatever it's worth, it was lost 3 on me. 4 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think the point is it 5 wasn't lost on those involved in the movie, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Right. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q You said something about Mr. Alexander's 9 preoccupation with the script. What were you talking 10 about? 11 A I didn't use the word "preoccupation." 12 Q I'm sorry. Can you tell us what your discussions 13 with Mr. Alexander were about how you wanted the movie or 14 how he wanted the movie to go? 15 (Mr. Tom Dandar entered the courtroom.) 16 A Well, there was the general thrust that this was 17 going to be a movie about Scientology and that -- you know, 18 that we had to be careful not to get into trouble because 19 of, you know, copyrights or trademark infringements and 20 things of that nature. And also, you know, to put 21 Scientology in the worst possible light and to create 22 this -- to use Vaughn Young's theory as the focal point of 23 the movie in terms of being responsible for -- David 24 Miscavige being responsible for the death of L. Ron 25 Hubbard.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1806 1 Q Now, sir -- I'm sorry. 2 A That was the -- that was the basis of the 3 discussions. The script was put together by Mr. Alexander. 4 Q Now, on the -- if you look at the lawsuit which 5 is before you up there, if you flip to the first exhibit, I 6 believe, attached to it is -- it's the Courage Production 7 contract as of February 7th, 2000. 8 A The operating agreement, yes. 9 THE COURT: Where are you, Mr. Fugate? 10 MR. FUGATE: I lost the exhibit. I think 11 it's 139. Is that -- 12 THE COURT: I've got it. I just -- where 13 are you? 14 MR. FUGATE: If you go, Judge, back to the 15 first exhibit, Exhibit A, it's the Courage Production 16 contract that's attached to the lawsuit. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Have you got that there? 19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. My phone was going 20 off. 21 THE COURT: I think he's trying to hide from 22 me that he's ignoring the signs that are on the doors 23 that say no phones. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. I 25 thought it was turned off.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1807 1 THE COURT: Turn your phones off, folks. 2 MR. FUGATE: Mine's off. 3 THE WITNESS: I apologize, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: I thought it was off. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Now, my question was, Do you have that lawsuit 8 there in front of you? 9 A I do. And you asked me to go to the operating 10 agreement, Exhibit A. 11 Q Yes, go to Exhibit A. 12 A Yes. 13 Q And we started over this, but you are the person 14 identified as the investor in the beginning of the 15 contract, correct? 16 A Well, the investor -- Mr. Alexander is identified 17 as the producer, and together we're collectively referred 18 to as a member -- I'm sorry, collectively as the members, 19 yes. 20 Q Now, it indicates -- if you want to read through 21 it, I'll just represent to you that in the agreement and 22 the attachments, it indicates that you are 50 percent owner 23 and Mr. Alexander is 50 percent owner in Courage 24 Productions and in The Profit, I guess. Is that your 25 understanding?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1808 1 A Well, in Courage Productions, and the only asset 2 of Courage Productions is the movie. 3 Q But how much did you invest as opposed to -- 4 THE COURT: Is this really relevant? 5 MR. FUGATE: It will be in a moment, Judge. 6 THE COURT: I'll be patient. 7 MR. FUGATE: And I'll be very quick. 8 A I think I put in 2.4 million, and Mr. Alexander 9 put in $100. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q And you still today are a 50 percent owner, 12 although you provided all the funding? Is that your 13 understanding? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Now, according to the contract -- 16 And, Judge, I'm going to ask him to go look at 17 Article IV, paragraph 4.2. 18 Can you flip over to that, sir? 19 A Yes, I'm there. 20 Q All right. You see it says "Acts requiring 21 unanimous consent"? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Can you read what it says. 24 A "Notwithstanding the foregoing, no member shall 25 have the authority without the written consent or
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1809 1 ratification of all the other members to do any of the acts 2 enumerated below." 3 Q All right. And if you flip ahead to 4.2.5, can 4 you read that. 5 THE COURT: And remember, please, when 6 you're reading -- 7 THE WITNESS: Slow down. 8 THE COURT: -- my court reporter needs to 9 take it down. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 11 A 4.2.5 says, "Contest a judgment against the 12 company, submit a company claim to arbitration, commence 13 any legal action on behalf of the company, settle any 14 arbitration or litigation or confess a judgment against the 15 company." 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Now, Exhibit -- Defense Exhibit 139 purports to 18 be a lawsuit filed by Courage Productions against Stacy 19 Brooks, John Beats, and Mark Bunker. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Is that your understanding? 22 A That is. 23 Q And you are aware that this lawsuit was served on 24 Stacy Brooks here at the courthouse? 25 A Yes, I'm aware of that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1810 1 Q Did anyone get your consent or agreement to 2 engage in litigation regarding Courage Productions or The 3 Profit? 4 A No. And I would point out in that connection 5 the -- you know, Mark Bunker already -- in fact, I'm the 6 person who put those three clips on the LMTI Web site, and 7 I gave Mark Bunker a letter dated the 11th of -- well -- 8 well, the day after they were put on the Web site -- I 9 forget the date now. I think it was -- I don't know 10 whether -- these months are -- whether it was the 11th of 11 May or April, I'm not sure at this stage. 12 Q I don't blame you. 13 A I gave him a letter signed for and on behalf of 14 Courage Productions authorizing him to have these on the 15 Web site, subject to me being -- asking him to remove them 16 at a later date. A copy of that letter was sent to the 17 same people who were copied on the original Digital 18 Millennium Copyright Act notice, and that included 19 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Lirot, Ms. Greenway, Mr. Bunker, and the 20 Internet service provider who hosted the LMT Web site, 21 pacer.com, who was also one of the defendants in this named 22 lawsuit. 23 THE COURT: This seems to be taking an awful 24 long time. I still don't understand the relevance. 25 Okay?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1811 1 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I gave you my word. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q If you look at Exhibit D -- can I ask you to flip 5 to that? 6 A Okay. D. Yes. 7 Q Do you see the four clips that were put on, 8 according to the allegation of the lawsuit? 9 A Well, this -- this Exhibit D, I don't know 10 whether that's what they alleged was put on, but that's not 11 what -- these are not the clips that are in question. 12 There are three clips, not four. 13 This related to an earlier notice that was sent 14 to me, a Digital Millennium Copyright Act notice, back 15 in -- well, the document will speak for itself as to when 16 it was done. But this was the -- these were the four 17 clips. 18 THE COURT: The long and the short of it is 19 you've asked him to look at D. D is there. I don't 20 know what he's talking about. There's D. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Well, the clips that were being complained of, 23 there's a letter, which is Exhibit F, from Mr. Lirot to you 24 dated February 14th, 2002 -- 25 A Correct.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1812 1 Q -- asking -- do you see that there? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Go ahead. 4 A This was -- this was the letter that involved 5 those four clips that we eventually agreed that -- Stacy 6 Brooks agreed to take down off of our Web site as part of 7 Mr. Dandar brokering this deal with Patricia Greenway. 8 Q Which deal was that? 9 A Well, the deal to stop this smear campaign that 10 was going on on the Internet following Mr. Dandar's visit 11 to New Hampshire on the 22nd or 23rd, approximately, of 12 February. 13 Q And what were you supposed to do, as you 14 understood it, according to the deal? 15 A Well, keep in mind that I was asleep when the 16 deal was made. I was advised by Stacy Brooks that -- she 17 didn't ask me whether it was okay to take these down. She 18 just went ahead and agreed to do it, that they would stop 19 their smear campaign and -- 20 Q And who is "they"? 21 A Mr. Dandar's friends. 22 THE COURT: Well, now, that's no good. 23 "They" are Mr. Dandar's friends. Who are "they"? 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll identify them. 25 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to -- I apologize. I thought
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1813 1 I had identified them before. Patricia Greenway, 2 Deanna Holmes, and Shirley Wilson were the principal 3 ones. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q The people you talked about on cross and direct 6 before? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And the clips were the clips, as we can see, all 9 folks that were involved in LMT and also the wrongful death 10 litigation? 11 A Yes. And, you know, as part of -- apparently as 12 part of this deal, Mr. Dandar told these people about this 13 money that was coming from me and that they had to shut up. 14 And, you know, it was -- they posted about this on the 15 Internet after all this stuff with this hearing started. 16 Q Posted what? 17 A That -- you know, that their free speech had been 18 gagged, that they were blackmailed by Minton, that 19 Mr. Minton wanted to make sure they shut up before he gave 20 the 250,000 to Mr. Dandar. And they felt like they had 21 been used by me. I mean, you know, I didn't -- yes, I 22 mean, it was Mr. Dandar who talked to them, but, you know, 23 of course I got the blame for it. And that somehow this 24 was part of a setup of Mr. Dandar, that this -- you know, 25 that I had already met with the Church of Scientology, that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1814 1 this check was a setup to get Mr. Dandar in trouble, you 2 know, and it's -- 3 Q That's -- so we're clear, that's what the 4 Internet postings are about? 5 A That's what Deanna Holmes and Shirley Wilson 6 said. 7 Q And the check that we're talking about is the UBS 8 check, the 93 H? 9 A The March 7th, 2002, check for 250,000. 10 Q Now, if you have the letter from Mr. Lirot there, 11 if you look down in the second paragraph, do you see there 12 where Mr. Lirot is indicating that his clients have become 13 involved in the wrongful death case and they don't want to 14 be embroiled in it or something to that effect? 15 A Right. 16 THE COURT: Now, I haven't found it. Tell 17 me where you're reading from. 18 MR. FUGATE: If you see, "It is my 19 understanding various segments --" 20 THE WITNESS: Fourth line in the second 21 paragraph. 22 MR. FUGATE: There you go. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I found it. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Were you aware, sir, that Mr. Lirot had filed a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1815 1 motion for protective order to stop any discovery into your 2 funding? In other words, the checks that you had provided 3 to Courage Productions for the funding of The Profit. Were 4 you aware that Mr. Lirot had filed a protective order and 5 had a hearing on that? 6 A I was not aware of that. You know, since January 7 of this year, I haven't had any contact -- since January, 8 no contact with Patricia Greenway and Peter Alexander other 9 than a few brief words with Ms. Greenway, you know, in the 10 setting of this courthouse. 11 Q Now, do you, sir, have an opinion -- you've 12 indicated you didn't authorize any lawsuit to be filed 13 against Stacy Brooks or Mark Bunker. Do you have any 14 opinion as to why it was filed by Mr. Lirot? 15 A Well, my belief is that this was purely 16 harassment of me, rather than any of the named parties. 17 Q I'm sorry, I didn't -- 18 A I believe that this was purely an attempt to 19 harass me, get me upset, you know, get me to have a -- 20 THE COURT: Honestly, aren't we a little far 21 afield here? This is some man giving his opinion and 22 his belief as to why somebody filed a lawsuit against 23 him. That cannot be relevant here. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I think -- 25 THE COURT: You can argue whatever you want
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1816 1 to, but I don't have to sit here and listen to him -- 2 an opinion comes from an expert. He's certainly not 3 that. 4 MR. FUGATE: Well, obviously, Judge, I 5 disagree, but I will move on. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Did you -- are you aware of any other funding for 8 Courage Production other than the $2.4 million that you 9 provided? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you authorize the expenditure, as the 12 contract requires, of any of those funds to be used to file 13 a lawsuit against Stacy Brooks? 14 A No. 15 Q And under the terms of the contract, if there 16 were to be -- well, under the terms of the suit, if there 17 were recovery from Stacy Brooks, who would be the pocket 18 that the recovery would come out of, if you know? 19 A Well, I'm quite certain it would be me. 20 Q And under the terms of the contract, if you 21 didn't authorize this, this is, in your judgment then, an 22 improper -- 23 THE COURT: Counselor, I just can't stand it 24 any longer. You've got to get off this. I don't 25 think this is relevant. I still don't think it's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1817 1 relevant. You can argue that it's relevant, but you 2 sure can't get into this crazy thing and what about 3 this other lawsuit, some other lawsuit for some other 4 day, filed by Patricia Greenway against Ms. Brooks. 5 Move on to the next whole item. 6 MR. FUGATE: I'm moving on, Judge. 7 THE COURT: Thank you. I mean, gosh, I 8 guess what you're asking me to do is speculate that 9 Ms. Brooks isn't capable of getting a job, she's not 10 capable of working, that somehow or another she's 11 going to be forever supported by this man and that she 12 is a dumb broad who can't do anything. I'm not going 13 to go there. 14 MR. FUGATE: No, Judge. The point is this 15 lawsuit wasn't authorized. It was filed by -- 16 THE COURT: Why do I care about that? He 17 can bring his own lawsuit. Why do I care about that? 18 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think that there's been 19 a counter allegation that we've filed lawsuits to 20 create some sort of intimidation, and I think this is 21 evidence that there have been lawsuits filed from the 22 other side that he indicates in his opinion to 23 intimidate him and Stacy Brooks. 24 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Well, if that's what 25 it's being introduced for, go on ahead and finish that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1818 1 up. 2 MR. FUGATE: I think I really have, Judge. 3 THE COURT: Well, if you haven't, go on 4 ahead. If that's honestly what you're doing, well, do 5 it. Finish it. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Do you believe, sir, that it was filed to 8 intimidate you and/or Stacy Brooks? 9 A I do. And I believe, you know, that Mr. Dandar 10 has talked about, you know, my, quote, mental breakdowns, 11 that this was just part of trying to get me really upset 12 here on the witness stand. 13 THE COURT: Well, you weren't even sued, 14 were you? 15 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, you know, I 16 think they purposely didn't sue me, even though they 17 knew I was the one who put the clips up there, because 18 I was a witness and that that would have been too 19 overt and that therefore, you know, Stacy Brooks and 20 Mark Bunker were targets. 21 THE COURT: It's all right. I just assumed 22 you were a bigger fellow than to be intimidated by 23 this, to be honest with you. I feel sorry if you were 24 intimidated. I don't like Ms. Brooks being sued in my 25 court, but I certainly don't want a witness
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1819 1 intimidated by this thing, whatever it is. 2 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I wouldn't call 3 it -- I would call it harassment. 4 THE COURT: Well, I might call it 5 harassment, but that isn't what he asked you. He 6 asked if you were intimidated, and you said you were. 7 THE WITNESS: Well -- 8 THE COURT: I find that a little farfetched, 9 but that's what you said. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, may I change that 11 testimony then, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: You may. 13 THE WITNESS: I believe it would fall more 14 into the category of harassment. 15 THE COURT: That I could buy. Intimidated, 16 I simply cannot. 17 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I should be 18 consulting the dictionary. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q I would ask is it in your judgment then 21 harassment? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, 24 your Honor? 25 THE COURT: You may.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1820 1 MR. FUGATE: And I'm going to do this in 2 reverse order. I'm going to ask him to look at these 3 while I'm having them marked. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. FUGATE: It'll be Defendant's 140. 6 Oops. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you. 8 MR. FUGATE: And it's a series of postings 9 that I'll submit as a composite. 10 THE COURT: Number, please? 11 MR. FUGATE: It's Defense Exhibit 140, a 12 composite of some postings, and I'm going to ask him 13 if he can identify -- 14 THE COURT: Did we skip some numbers? 15 MR. FUGATE: Pardon me? 16 THE COURT: Did we skip some numbers? I had 17 the FACTNet Person of the Year at 134. I assume the 18 lawsuit was 135. 19 MR. FUGATE: No. The lawsuit was 139, and 20 the FACTNet was 1 -- it was 134. Maybe we did. Okay. 21 I'm sorry, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Something -- okay. This is 139, 23 this lawsuit? 24 MR. FUGATE: The lawsuit is 139. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Then you skipped
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1821 1 something in between 134 and 139, but that's all 2 right. It just won't be there. This is 140, is that 3 it? 4 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I object to the 7 introduction of new evidence on redirect examination. 8 It was never part of cross-examination. 9 THE COURT: You crossed for so long, 10 Counselor, you introduced so many postings -- I mean, 11 I'm going to have to take a look at it, but your 12 cross-examination, I let you just go everywhere. So I 13 suspect that I'm going to overrule your objection, but 14 let me take a look. 15 These are -- these are postings from whom? 16 MR. FUGATE: They -- as I read them, Judge, 17 are from Deanna Holmes, Tigger -- 18 THE COURT: I might have some problem with 19 that. I mean, Mr. Minton's postings, as I recall, are 20 his postings, and I think there's some objections to 21 other people's postings. Let me -- at least when 22 Mr. Minton says "these are my postings," I have some 23 reason to believe there's some reliability. I don't 24 know who Deanna Holmes is. I don't know if this is 25 her posting or anything of the sort.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1822 1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm just going to ask him 2 if he had seen these and if this is what he was 3 referring to a moment ago in his testimony. 4 THE COURT: You can do that, but I don't 5 know you can introduce them as evidence. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Have you had a chance to look at these, 8 Mr. Minton? 9 A Yes, I have. I haven't looked at all of them 10 yet, but the first two I looked at. 11 THE COURT: What does this mean down here 12 where it says "Mark Bunker"? Who wrote this thing? 13 THE WITNESS: It's one of those with these 14 carets again, your Honor. That's quoting something 15 Mark Bunker wrote. 16 THE COURT: This is Deanna Holmes, Deanna -- 17 THE WITNESS: Deanna Holmes. 18 THE COURT: Putting something out there that 19 Mark Bunker -- 20 THE WITNESS: Responding to something Mark 21 Bunker said. And what he said is: "Is Dandar 22 manipulating you to ask these questions? You stated 23 he did silence you to get more money from Bob." 24 And then her response -- 25 THE COURT: Who is that from? Who is that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1823 1 from and to? That's from Ms. Holmes to Mr. Bunker? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, on this 3 alt.religion.scientology newsgroup. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: I've looked through them. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Can you identify those as postings that you read 8 about what you just testified about, people were accusing 9 you of blackmailing Ken Dandar and them, I guess? 10 A Yes, and them, you know, that I was blackmailing 11 them for their silence, you know, curtailing their free 12 speech rights so that Mr. Dandar could get this $250,000 13 check from me. 14 Q And these are dated in late April, so -- of 2002. 15 Is that correct? 16 A That's correct. This is after, you know, all of 17 this stuff started, "this stuff" being, you know, these 18 hearings and -- or, the, you know, approximately the same 19 time. 20 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would move them into 21 evidence as Composite 140, subject to -- 22 THE COURT: Well, I'll tell you what. 23 There's a lot of stuff that's strictly inadmissible 24 evidence that we've let in, so I'll let it in as an 25 example of what he's been talking about.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1824 1 Again, as I've indicated to you all, not 2 that I'm saying that these are true or that they came 3 from these people, because there's no authenticity 4 here. It's just that he's identifying them as 5 examples of what he's been talking about. So only for 6 that purpose. 7 MR. DANDAR: Is this Exhibit -- Defendant's 8 Exhibit 140? 9 THE COURT: 140. 10 MR. DANDAR: The composite? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. FUGATE: Now, unless you have any 13 questions about that, Judge, I'll move to another -- 14 THE COURT: I don't. As I said, I can read 15 these at my leisure. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I guess this is what we're 17 supposed to be concerned about our children doing, 18 getting on these newsgroups and communicating back and 19 forth. It's -- 20 THE COURT: Well, I've never chatted on the 21 Internet, and I don't think I'm going to either. As I 22 said, I like to shop and I like to do e-mail. 23 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, just if I may say 24 something about the Internet. There are a lot of 25 places on the Internet that -- where the type of stuff
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1825 1 that you see goes on in this newsgroup, you know, 2 where there's actually some sanity and politeness and, 3 you know, reasonableness in the communication with 4 each other. This one is a bit of an extreme, by 5 anybody's imagination, on the Internet. 6 THE COURT: Well, after all this is over, 7 I'm going to go there a few nights and just kind of 8 watch. What did you say those people were? They were 9 just the observers? 10 THE WITNESS: The lurkers. 11 THE COURT: The lurkers. I'll just go and 12 lurk and see what it's all about. 13 Continue on, Counselor. 14 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to go to sleep when 15 it's over, Judge. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q You had been asked some questions by Mr. Dandar 18 in cross-examination about some meetings that you had in 19 1998 with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rathbun. Do you remember 20 that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now, you also mentioned that you had been 23 presented with or shown the settlement agreement as part of 24 those conversations. Do you recall that, sir? 25 A I do.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1826 1 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 MR. FUGATE: And this will be 141, leaving 4 135 for whatever behind. 5 THE COURT: This is an extra copy of this 6 lawsuit. It's awfully thick. Would you like to take 7 it back? 8 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. 9 THE COURT: I have it. 10 MR. FUGATE: I'll put it in a notebook. 11 This is going to be 141? 12 THE CLERK: Yes. 13 MR. FUGATE: Show you what has been marked 14 as Defendant's Exhibit 141 for identification. 15 Did I give this to you? 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Would you take a moment and look at this and see 18 if you recognize -- 19 A Do you mind if I read through it, because -- 20 Q No, I don't. 21 A Yes. 22 MR. FUGATE: With the Court's permission. 23 THE COURT: No problem. 24 I'm sorry, what again is this? 25 MR. FUGATE: It's a copy of a confidential
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1827 1 settlement agreement, a mutual general release -- 2 THE COURT: That you talked about that 3 happened back in -- 4 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 5 THE WITNESS: A copy of it, so . . . 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: How come it's not signed? 8 Can't we have a signed copy? 9 MR. FUGATE: I think he testified that he 10 didn't enter into it. 11 MR. DANDAR: My mistake, sorry. 12 THE COURT: This is the one where he had met 13 with Mr. Rinder? 14 MR. FUGATE: And Mr. -- yes, in L.A. and in 15 Boston. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Rathbun? 17 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Rathbun. 18 THE COURT: They had thought maybe something 19 could be worked out, it wasn't, they left, and then 20 there were postings about the meetings. Okay. 21 MR. FUGATE: You asked him do you remember 22 anything about the agreement -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: -- so here it is. 25 THE COURT: Well, thank you.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1828 1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I assume that. I'm 2 asking him to take a look at it. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q I'm sorry, have you had an opportunity -- 5 A Yes, I have. 6 Q Do you recognize that draft agreement? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q Is that the draft agreement or the agreement that 9 was under discussion in the conversations that you told the 10 Court about in Mr. Dandar's cross-examination? 11 A During, I believe, that third meeting in Los 12 Angeles. The third of the three meetings -- 13 Q Okay. 14 A -- which was in Los Angeles. 15 Q Now, as you read it, do you see what the 16 consideration for each side was in the agreement? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q Dollar each? 19 A Right, the monetary consideration, yes. 20 Q Right, I'm sorry, monetary. And it's -- do you 21 see that it's a reciprocal agreement throughout for you and 22 for the Church of Scientology? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Now, at this point in time, you had been in -- in 25 1998, you had been involved in FACTNet, and you were also
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1829 1 involved in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death litigation 2 funding. Is that correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q And we've already heard talk about all the other 5 things that have gone on. But in any event, you were -- 6 you did have a meeting. And in that meeting -- basically 7 was it a meeting to talk about walking away from the 8 litigation on both sides of the equation? 9 A Well, it became that. You know, there wasn't a 10 sort of fixed agenda for it. This just came up during the 11 course of the discussions. 12 Q And as you just read through that, do you see 13 anything to your eye that is in this proposed agreement 14 that was coercive or unfair as you look at it today? 15 A You know, reading through it, you know, I wish to 16 God I had signed it. 17 Q But at the time it had happened -- and you 18 already testified about that -- did you consider it to be 19 harassive, the attempt to settle, as you testified? 20 A No. My two main objections at the time related 21 to the restrictions on free speech and the fact that we 22 really never got around to having any serious discussions 23 about these reforms that Stacy Brooks and I tried to talk 24 about. 25 MR. FUGATE: I would move the agreement into
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1830 1 evidence as the proposed agreement that he was shown. 2 MR. DANDAR: It's not the agreement; it's a 3 proposal only. And I have no objection on that basis. 4 THE COURT: All right. It'll come in. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Is this the agreement that you were talking about 7 in cross-examination, sir? 8 THE COURT: He's already asked and answered 9 that. Move on to the next one. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q And after June, July, August, whatever it was in 12 1998 that you had this meeting with Mr. Rinder, did you 13 continue to fund the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q And at some point if we looked at the dates of 16 the checks in Defense Exhibit 93, we could determine how 17 much, if it were more than a million five or something of 18 that nature after these agreement proposals? Would that be 19 accurate? 20 THE COURT: Counsel, it is what it is. You 21 can make all those arguments at the time of closing. 22 Those checks are in -- 23 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to -- 24 THE COURT: I know, but you're going to have 25 to wait for argument for some of it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1831 1 MR. FUGATE: I will, Judge. 2 THE COURT: I mean, I can't wait for him to 3 go back, pick up the checks, go count them, and all 4 that stuff. 5 MR. FUGATE: I'm not even going to ask him 6 to do that. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to move on to another 9 area, Judge. I don't know if you want to take a break 10 or if you want to keep going. 11 THE COURT: Keep going. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q Okay. Now, with regard to the breach case, in 14 the breach case in Florida and the breach case -- well, let 15 me ask this. You've been added as a party to the breach 16 here in Florida. Is that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And you've been added as a party to the 19 counterclaim in the wrongful death case. Is that correct, 20 sir? 21 A That is. 22 Q Now, were you aware that -- that the Religious 23 Technology Center had obtained a judgment in Texas on the 24 breach allegations there related to the wrongful death 25 lawsuit?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1832 1 A I think I heard it mentioned in here, some 2 300-plus thousand. Yes, I was aware that there was a 3 judgment. 4 Q And were you aware that there had been a judgment 5 as to liability entered in the wrongful -- or, in the 6 breach case here in Florida, and it was -- what was pending 7 was the amount of damages to be awarded? 8 A Yes, I understand that. 9 Q Now, sir -- 10 THE COURT: How can somebody be added after 11 the liability comes down? 12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, all I know is that I 13 understood he was added as a party -- 14 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, did you let him be 15 added as a party after liability had been determined? 16 MR. HOWIE: It's my consideration that we 17 still have our defenses as to -- 18 MR. FUGATE: I stand corrected, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Yes. If there's a summary 20 judgment been entered, you can't come along and add 21 somebody who wasn't even there. 22 MR. FUGATE: I stand corrected. It's a 23 different count of that. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Let me ask you this. You are aware that a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1833 1 summary judgment has been entered in the breach case 2 against the personal representative of the Estate? 3 A In the Clearwater case. 4 Q In Clearwater. 5 A Yes. 6 THE COURT: But not against him. 7 MR. FUGATE: I apologize. 8 MR. WEINBERG: There's no judgment -- right. 9 It's a different count, and it's a different -- 10 THE COURT: Yes, but he kept talking about 11 the breach. In the breach count there's a summary 12 judgment been entered, but not against him. He's been 13 added as a tortious interference, if I had to guess, 14 but that's not what he was saying. 15 MR. WEINBERG: The tortious interference 16 hasn't been litigated. 17 THE COURT: Right. 18 MR. FUGATE: It's already 4:30 for me, 19 Judge. I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: Already 4:30. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q My question is, You are aware that there was a 23 summary judgment as to the Estate -- the personal 24 representative of the Estate in the Clearwater case? 25 A Yes, I'm aware of that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1834 1 THE COURT: Can somebody tell me -- I was 2 looking at that the other day. I saw Mr. Dandar was a 3 party, but then I saw that there was -- in a judgment 4 it was reflected as a judgment against the personal 5 representative and her individually. It did not seem 6 to mention Mr. Dandar. 7 Were you dismissed? 8 MR. DANDAR: In the breach case before Judge 9 Baird, there's a summary judgment on the first amended 10 complaint against the Estate only. They have since 11 filed -- recently, they're moving to file a fourth 12 amended complaint, where they add me and Dr. Garko and 13 Mr. -- 14 THE COURT: This is way more than I want to 15 know. 16 MR. DANDAR: All right. 17 THE COURT: There is no summary judgment 18 against you. 19 MR. DANDAR: No. And there's no order by 20 the Court to permit them to sue me yet. 21 MR. WEINBERG: But in Texas -- what you're 22 talking about, what you looked at, in Texas the order 23 that the federal judge has issued assessed -- of the 24 attorneys' fees, assessed I think 98,000 of it 25 personally against Mr. Dandar.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1835 1 THE COURT: I did see that. No. I'm 2 talking about what I saw was Judge Baird's -- 3 something in his suit -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 5 THE COURT: -- that there was a summary 6 judgment entered, but it was not entered against 7 Mr. Dandar. 8 MR. WEINBERG: That's correct. 9 THE COURT: Although as I looked up in the 10 body, I saw he was named. So I wanted to know what 11 happened to him. 12 MR. WEINBERG: It's just the Estate. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 14 MR. DANDAR: I was originally sued and 15 abated. So now they want to bring me back in. 16 THE COURT: Okay. So you have not been 17 dismissed as a party. It's just been abated; the suit 18 has been abated as to you. 19 MR. DANDAR: Until now. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: You may. Sorry I asked. 23 MR. FUGATE: 4:30 all over. 24 THE COURT: Right. 25 BY MR. FUGATE:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1836 1 Q Now, if the -- the breaches -- if the breaches 2 indeed occurred in 1999 with regard to the fifth amended 3 complaint -- which I won't even go back into all that 4 discussion -- this was at a time you were still providing 5 funding to the wrongful death lawsuit. Is that correct, 6 sir? 7 A That's right. 8 Q And without your funding, do you -- do you have 9 any opinion as to whether or not there would have been any 10 breach or the case would have just gone on as it originally 11 was in the first wrongful death complaint? 12 MR. DANDAR: Speculation and legal opinion. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Do you think that your providing of your funding 16 to the Estate caused the expansion of the lawsuit that 17 we've been talking about, the wrongful death lawsuit? 18 MR. DANDAR: Objection, speculation. 19 THE COURT: I think he can answer if he 20 knows, but I don't think he can speculate and tell us 21 what he thinks. 22 A I can't answer it the way the Judge has 23 suggested. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Well, would you tell us again what your purpose
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1837 1 is in funding and adding the monies to the lawsuit were for 2 as it relates to the Church of Scientology? 3 THE COURT: Don't need that, because I 4 already know the answer to that. You can save it, you 5 can argue it, you can do whatever. But he can't be 6 asked to speculate here as to what was going on in 7 somebody else's head or whatever. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q When you were talking about the meeting that you 10 had in New York in response to cross-examination questions 11 from Mr. Dandar -- and this would be the -- 12 A The pre-Easter. 13 Q Right, pre-Easter. You said something about you 14 perceived yourself as the deep pocket. Can you tell us 15 what you meant. 16 A Well, that the -- that the liabilities that could 17 relate to particularly the Florida cases, as they were 18 referred to, and the Wollersheim case, that -- that I could 19 be come after for -- be responsible in some way for 20 liabilities in connection with any costs that Scientology 21 had to pay out in either of those cases and that, you know, 22 they obviously weren't going to get -- you know, as things 23 stood at the time, you know, I was aware of this judgment 24 in Texas and was aware that there was still to be 25 determined the attorney costs.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1838 1 And, you know, I thought that at some stage 2 Scientology would try to move in to the probate court and 3 try to, you know, do something based on these judgments 4 against the Estate and that ultimately that, since there's 5 nobody else that is involved in this, you know, Dell 6 Liebreich or Mr. Dandar, that if anybody was going to be 7 looking for money, they were going to be looking for money 8 from me with respect to those cases because of my 9 involvement in funding. 10 And, you know, the same with regards to 11 Wollersheim. I mean, it's a little different with regards 12 to Wollersheim, but, you know, I was concerned that there 13 would be monetary penalties -- you know, that a lawsuit 14 would get filed against me to recover some of the money 15 they paid out to Wollersheim, "they" being Scientology. 16 Q Now, prior to the New York meetings of the 28th 17 and the 29th of March, had you -- and I don't -- I don't 18 want to get into any communications -- but had you been 19 made aware that the -- either the Court in the wrongful 20 death case or the Church was going to seek to add you as a 21 party in the counterclaim? 22 A Before that meeting? 23 Q Yes. 24 A I -- 25 Q If you remember.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1839 1 A Yes. I believe that -- that an attorney -- I 2 don't remember who from. I believe it was Mr. Moxon, 3 actually, had discussed this matter with Mr. Howie, you 4 know, to indicate that that was likely to happen. 5 Q Have you ever had any discussions with Mr. Dandar 6 about the Estate being judgment-proof because essentially 7 it had no assets? 8 A He used that term. And clearly, there weren't 9 any assets other than, according to Mr. Dandar, what was 10 never left of monies that he was using on this case because 11 they were always spent. 12 Q So when you used the term "deep pocket," how did 13 you perceive yourself in relation to the breach case and 14 the wrongful death case from the counterclaim perspective? 15 A Well, I considered that I potentially could face, 16 you know, substantial financial liability. 17 Q Now, I think you also mentioned in 18 cross-examination -- I'm sorry, I interrupted you. 19 A Well, you know, because I was convinced that -- 20 Q I saw you raise your hand, and I assumed -- 21 A I was convinced that if there was a way in the 22 litigation arena for the Church of Scientology to find to 23 come after me relative to whatever happened in those cases 24 that they would -- they would find a way and that one way 25 or another, you know, they were going to be coming after
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1840 1 me. 2 You know, I have no doubt about the abilities of 3 the Church of Scientology's legal team to come up with ways 4 in which a lot of people don't ever come up with to come 5 after somebody, and that was a concern. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, the word "deep 7 pocket" comes from an agency concept, which I taught 8 for three years in law school. "Agency" means go 9 after the man with deep pockets. Deep pockets is the 10 moneyman. That's what you always teach in law school. 11 That's not something that just the Church of 12 Scientology knows. Every lawyer that practices law 13 knows you go for the guy with the money. That's the 14 guy with the deep pockets. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. I didn't mean to imply 16 that this wasn't a common concept. It's just that 17 I've never been involved in any kind of litigation, 18 and, you know, I saw where this term came from. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Just understand that 20 that's the way it is, whether it's a court here or 21 whether it's a court in Texas or whether it's a court 22 in Mississippi. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 THE COURT: You know, a lawyer is looking 25 for the man that's got the money to pay the judgment.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1841 1 So you're always going after the guy with the deep 2 pocket, if you can. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I'm going to 4 remember that very carefully. 5 THE COURT: Always remember that, because 6 you have defined yourself as a man with a deep pocket. 7 And that's correct. Wherever you are sued, you will 8 be considered the man with the deep pocket. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Now, one of the other things that was mentioned 11 in cross-examination and I think in one of your answers was 12 there was some reference to the costs that the Church 13 had -- that had occurred -- accrued to the Church because 14 of you bringing LMT and moving in next door to the Church's 15 staff dining room. Do you recall that? 16 A I do. I think I characterized that as security 17 injunction-related expenses. 18 Q We don't have the time or the energy to get into 19 all the injunction motions back and forth before Judge 20 Penick, but you were obviously -- 21 THE COURT: Thank goodness. 22 MR. FUGATE: Believe me, I don't want to, 23 Judge. 24 THE COURT: Good. 25 BY MR. FUGATE:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1842 1 Q But you were involved in that in funding the 2 lawyers on your side for all of those proceedings. Is that 3 correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Now, your -- what was your purpose in moving into 6 the building right next door to the staff dining room? 7 A Well -- 8 THE COURT: Has he not covered this? 9 MR. FUGATE: He has, Judge. 10 THE COURT: I think he has. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think we did do that. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q And I'll lead you just to get to the point that I 14 want to make. I think you said that was to be in the face 15 of Scientology? 16 A Right. 17 Q And as part of being in the face, besides the 18 pickets which you've talked about, did -- did you, 19 Mr. Prince, and others in the LMT make a practice of 20 standing outside, across the street so you're outside of 21 the 10-foot limit, and basically yelling at staff with 22 bullhorns and things of that nature? 23 A Yes, we did. 24 Q And those were all sorts of verbal comments. I 25 would ask you if they were directed at, in your judgment,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1843 1 trying to create turmoil within the staff members in -- 2 A Well, generally, yes. But, you know, 3 specifically that would -- would that newspaper headline of 4 the St. Petersburg Times when Mr. Miscavige was added as a 5 defendant -- that was clearly trying to create -- what we 6 were doing out there was clearly trying to create turmoil, 7 that -- you know, implying by what we were saying, you 8 know, with this newspaper article in hand that, you know, 9 Mr. Miscavige was going to be removed, that the Church was 10 going to be turned upside-down, and, you know, we hoped 11 good people come in to take over. 12 You know, that was, you know, definitely designed 13 to excite the Scientologists, you know, the 1500 plus who 14 were coming in there for lunch or breakfast or dinner, you 15 know, to put doubts in their minds about Mr. Miscavige. 16 Q And after you began that practice of picketing, 17 moving in next door to LMT, did you -- before you began 18 that practice, how, to your observation, did the staff come 19 and go to the dining room? 20 A Some walked. There's a large building -- I think 21 it's called the Coachman Building -- across the street on 22 Cleveland Street. They would, you know, walk down to the 23 corner of Fort Harrison and Cleveland and cross there and 24 walk in front of the bank building and around to the side 25 door.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1844 1 There were also people who were bused from, you 2 know, some of the outlying living quarters of the staff, 3 Hacienda Gardens and other places that were bused in. 4 People from the Sandcastle, I don't know whether they were 5 bused or walked over or whether they had their own eating 6 facilities there. I'm not sure. 7 Q Well, after you moved -- 8 THE COURT: I don't know what the answer is. 9 The question was what happened after. I haven't heard 10 it yet. 11 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to ask that, Judge. 12 THE COURT: You already did. 13 What happened after you started this 14 picketing? 15 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 16 THE COURT: Not this picketing, but this 17 yelling at these people? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, the Church had to -- in 19 order to keep the people from hearing what was going 20 on out there, they started busing everybody. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: You know -- 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Was there a difference in the buses from when you 25 first got there to when you were there during the balance
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1845 1 of '99 and 2000? 2 A They -- yes, the buses got changed. There were 3 new buses purchased. I think they were, you know, from 4 the -- I think you did a deal with the City of Clearwater 5 to purchase a bunch of buses from them. But they were 6 different buses. They were bigger buses. They were louder 7 buses. 8 And, you know, the loudness of it was 9 basically -- the loudness of the buses was designed to sort 10 of drown out any noise that was coming from the other side 11 of the sidewalk as the people would be disembarking from 12 the buses to go into the bank building. 13 Q And were you aware that the Church hired off-duty 14 Clearwater police department officers to sit across the 15 street to, quote/unquote, I guess, keep the peace? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And do you remember approximately how long that 18 lasted in terms of having -- well, how many officers did 19 you see each day sitting directly across the street from 20 the staff dining hall entrance? 21 A I think there were two every day, and sometimes 22 there were more there, maybe one or two more. I'm not sure 23 whether they were, you know, coming by to give the other 24 people a break for a little while or -- but, you know, two 25 were there. There used to be a couple of police cars there
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1846 1 even. And I think -- you know, I mean, it was obviously a 2 lot of time and effort of manpower involved in those two 3 people sitting there. 4 Q And -- 5 THE COURT: Are you about done with this 6 area? I'm about ready to take a break. 7 MR. FUGATE: Yes. I'll shut it right down, 8 Judge. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q In spite of the security officers being added and 12 busing people in, did that deter you and others from 13 continuing to yell about your opinions to the staff as they 14 came and went? 15 A Well, no, it didn't discourage us, but it 16 discouraged me after Judge Penick found me having violated 17 the injunction by holding the threep up on the way back to 18 the office and it was visible in the second-floor windows, 19 of the bank window. 20 THE COURT: The threep, is that that pole? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 22 A And, you know, once that happened, you know, 23 there was an order to show cause for a lot of people. I 24 think there must have been 13 people who had orders to show 25 cause against them. And I'm the only one, unfortunately,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1847 1 who was found to have violated the injunction. Then I was 2 put on a six-month probation. And during -- during that 3 time period, I took what you would call a very low profile 4 to try to avoid getting in any trouble. And despite 5 that -- 6 THE COURT: Are we really past where we need 7 to go here? 8 MR. FUGATE: Can we take a break? 9 THE COURT: Thanks. Honestly. 10 MR. FUGATE: We can take a break. 11 THE COURT: We're going to be in recess for 12 20 minutes. 13 (Recess taken at 10:30 until 11:06 a.m.) 14 THE COURT: You may be seated. 15 Sorry, I had a matter that I needed to 16 discuss with the Chief Judge. That's been done. 17 Continue. 18 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm not sure I moved in 19 Plaintiff's Exhibit 139 [sic], which was the lawsuit 20 with the attachments, but I will move it into evidence 21 at this point in time. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. DANDAR: Didn't you say that was 24 irrelevant, Judge? 25 THE COURT: I think it is. But they're
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1848 1 going to argue it has some merit, some relevance, and 2 I'm going to let them do that. 3 MR. FUGATE: Judge, it's filed by 4 plaintiff's co-counsel. 5 THE COURT: That's true. I'm letting it in, 6 and you can make your argument. 7 MR. FUGATE: It also raises some other 8 issues for another day. 9 THE COURT: Save them for argument, if you 10 will. 11 MR. FUGATE: I get it. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q Now, yesterday, I think, or the day before, 14 Mr. Dandar had asked you to identify and I think admitted 15 into evidence Plaintiff's Exhibit 76, which is a March 30th 16 e-mail letter that he mailed to you after apparently you 17 talked to him about the meetings and about -- that you were 18 going to have to reveal the checks, I think. Do you recall 19 that? 20 A I do. I do recall that letter, yes. 21 Q Now, in that, he says -- he says in the letter, 22 "I don't know how they are extorting you," and then goes on 23 later to say I guess there's extortion. Let me just cut to 24 the chase here, rather than going through a bunch of 25 questions. Do you feel as if you have been extorted by the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1849 1 Church of Scientology to produce the UBS checks or to 2 come -- and become a part of the filing of the affidavits, 3 et cetera, as Mr. Dandar has alleged? 4 A Absolutely not. 5 Q Now, instead of me going through a bunch of 6 questions, what -- can you tell us in your own words why 7 you believe you had to come back to Florida and do what has 8 occurred here, walk in to Mr. Rinder, give up checks, the 9 UBS checks -- 10 THE COURT: Haven't we been through that, 11 Mr. Fugate? I mean, several times. 12 MR. FUGATE: All right. 13 THE COURT: I mean, if you don't agree, you 14 can go ahead -- because I know there have been times 15 when I said I'm not sure. But I'm sure of that. I 16 heard Mr. Minton explain several times why he felt he 17 needed to do this. 18 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, can I just add -- 19 THE COURT: Yes. If there's something you 20 haven't said, you can add to it. 21 THE WITNESS: -- to what I said? 22 THE COURT: Sure. 23 A In terms of going to Mr. Rinder, first of all, 24 Mr. Rinder, to my belief -- you know, I may be wrong -- but 25 to my belief, he is the person who is responsible for all
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1850 1 the litigation that Scientology is involved in. He -- the 2 way I looked at Mr. Rinder is he's sort of the triggerman. 3 And, you know, there was a gun aimed at me, at 4 Stacy Brooks, the LMT. You know, maybe Mr. Moxon is the 5 man aiming the gun, but Mr. Rinder has his finger on the 6 trigger. And, you know, I just -- I really believe that 7 the only way to try to resolve anything in terms of, quote, 8 global settlement with Scientology was to speak to the man 9 who had been pulling that trigger and that list of things 10 that you -- the time line of these discovery orders and 11 contempt motions and judges talking about jail time for 12 Stacy Brooks, for me. 13 You know, even -- even if it came to perjury and 14 coming to the Court to try to correct this without talking 15 to Scientology at all, you know, it was my belief, based on 16 their history with me and their history with Jesse Prince's 17 trial, that -- that they would be the -- also with 18 prosecutors in New Hampshire and in Massachusetts and the 19 prosecutor here, you know -- it was my feeling that -- that 20 if we came in and admitted any kind of perjury, that the 21 Church of Scientology's attorneys would do everything they 22 can, based on instructions from Mike Rinder, to pursue 23 those perjury charges to the hilt with the state attorney's 24 office. 25 And, you know, it wasn't -- you know, I thought
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1851 1 about this some considerable period of time, even from the 2 first time Mr. Howie contacted Mr. Pope up until the middle 3 of March, almost, you know, a month and a half later, as to 4 what to do. I mean, I was just in a bad mental state. 5 I could see no chance of this terminator, so to 6 speak, stopping, you know, that this was just going to be a 7 continuing process that -- you know, that I -- well, I 8 won't repeat anything I said before. 9 But, you know, Mike Rinder is the man who had his 10 finger on the trigger. And that's why I called him up on 11 March 16th, I believe, that Saturday. I think it was the 12 16th, to -- 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Sir -- 15 A -- to begin -- 16 Q I'm sorry. 17 A -- to begin the process of trying to get that gun 18 pointed away from me and have those bullets not flying at 19 me and at Stacy and at Jesse Prince -- you know, we thought 20 Jesse Prince was still a target -- and Mark Bunker. 21 Q And you're -- you're talking about March 16th and 22 leading up to the March 28th and 29th meetings -- 23 And this is, I know, Judge, somewhat repetitious. 24 -- but at that point, as I understood your 25 testimony, what you wanted to do was to continue the two
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1852 1 contempt proceedings that were set to occur in Florida. Is 2 that correct? 3 A You mean when we met in New York? 4 Q And said: "Let's settle. What we want -- let's 5 talk settlement agreement, but let's put off those two 6 hearings." And the answer was no? 7 A Yes, that was something we wanted to do, Stacy 8 and I wanted to do, was to try to get these things put off 9 so that we could actually talk settlement and try to 10 completely extract ourselves from this whole nightmare. 11 Q In using your words I think that you used 12 yesterday, you were trying to hit the ball down the middle 13 of the fairway, I think was a concept that you talked about 14 yesterday. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Keeping that concept in mind, when you talk about 17 the legal harassment that you talked about to Mr. Dandar 18 and in the beginning of my questions, all those orders that 19 are in that time line and all those proceedings in that 20 time line that you read through yesterday, neither you nor 21 Ms. Brooks nor LMT was in any way following any of the 22 orders of the Court, were you. 23 A We weren't. And, you know, by the -- by the time 24 it came to -- sometime before going to New York, you know, 25 I tried to put my counsel in Boston in the picture as to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1853 1 what -- the full extent of what had been going on and was. 2 And he was pretty appalled at the stuff that had gone on. 3 He had been very uncomfortable about Mr. Merrett. He had 4 many conversations with him. 5 And, you know -- 6 THE COURT: The question was neither he nor 7 Stacy nor LMT was following any of the orders of the 8 Court. The answer to that is no. I don't know if 9 he's explaining why that is or why we're talking about 10 what his lawyer thought of Mr. Merrett. 11 THE WITNESS: If I can just finish -- 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: -- I'll get to the point now. 14 A You know, the point was that we were going to 15 have to start dealing with this stuff and dealing with it 16 properly. And, you know, as I said, when we first 17 contacted Mr. Rinder by phone -- in fact, Stacy Brooks 18 actually made the first call. He didn't return her call, 19 at least not up until like -- I think she called around 20 noontime, which was 9 o'clock in California. I guess about 21 three hours later, I called back, and then he returned my 22 call fairly quickly. 23 The idea was to sit down and -- as I've already 24 testified, and maybe you can stop me if I'm going over 25 precise ground -- that we wanted to try to find a way in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1854 1 New York to -- 2 THE COURT: This is really beyond -- what I 3 think he was trying to explain is why he might have 4 gone to Rinder, as opposed to the Court. 5 I want you to answer these two questions, 6 and I want you to think very carefully about them 7 before you answer. Did I understand you to just say 8 that you went to Mr. Rinder, rather than coming to the 9 Court regarding perjury, because you thought 10 Mr. Rinder had some ability to make those perjury 11 charges go away with the state attorney's office? 12 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. What I said 13 was that if we came to the Court and admitted to 14 perjury that I was certain that the Church of 15 Scientology's legal team would use all their power and 16 all their weight to have the state attorney's office 17 prosecute us for perjury. 18 THE COURT: Do you think that the Church of 19 Scientology has any power over our elected state 20 attorney, Bernie McCabe, who will make the decision -- 21 even now -- as to whether or not to prosecute you and 22 Stacy Brooks for perjury? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, what I believe is based 24 on my own experience, your Honor. I've seen them 25 pressure the state attorney's office with respect to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1855 1 Jesse's trial. 2 I've seen them do this in Chicago with Mark 3 Bunker, you know, that their lawyer is sitting there 4 right with the state attorney at the counsel's table. 5 They did this with Keith Henson out in 6 California. 7 They did it with me up in Boston. They 8 tried to get the state attorney in New Hampshire to 9 come after me. 10 And I'm not saying that they could, you 11 know, overpower them and make them do something, but 12 I'm saying that the pressure that I viewed that 13 Scientology exerted in any litigation that they were 14 involved in where they could have the state prosecutor 15 accomplishing their own goals, basically, which is to 16 put me in jail, that they would make every attempt to 17 do that. 18 THE COURT: Do you think that's maybe why 19 the prosecutor in this particular circuit charged them 20 with crimes? I mean, I take great offense at the fact 21 that you think that Mr. Rinder in any way, shape, or 22 form has any power, control, or otherwise over me, any 23 other judge, or over the state attorney. I can assure 24 you that he does not. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1856 1 THE COURT: That you even think it I find 2 offensive, and that's all that needs to be said about 3 it. 4 Mr. Fugate, go on. I heard his explanation, 5 and I will see that Mr. McCabe gets it as well, 6 because naturally, as I said many times, this 7 information is going straight to Mr. McCabe as soon as 8 this is done. 9 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I would appreciate 10 your letting me continue. 11 THE COURT: I think you've already dug 12 yourself a huge hole. 13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you've got to 14 understand -- 15 THE COURT: The state attorney does not have 16 Mr. Rinder sitting at their table. The state attorney 17 does not have Mr. Rinder doing anything or running 18 this office. The state attorney in this particular 19 circuit charged the Church of Scientology with two 20 crimes and, but for the fact most likely that they had 21 Dr. Wood make this vast change, might have continued. 22 The truth of the matter was the state 23 attorney's best shot was with me dismissing it because 24 I might have thought they had a First Amendment right, 25 which was what this man right over here was arguing in
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1857 1 front of me. 2 The state attorney was violently opposed to 3 that and in good faith, quite frankly, dropped those 4 charges. Mr. Rinder, I guarantee you, had nothing to 5 do with that. 6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I really believe 7 you're misinterpreting what I've said here. And I 8 would -- 9 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it. Move 10 on. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Mr. Minton, were you aware that the Court -- this 13 Court -- had basically overturned your Fifth Amendment 14 invocations as to the questions about the monies and 15 ultimately what would lead to the checks, the discovery of 16 the checks in this matter, the UBS checks? 17 A Yes, I was aware of that. 18 THE COURT: You didn't think Mr. Rinder had 19 anything to do with that, did you? 20 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Well, I can assure you he 22 didn't. You know, there were a couple times in here 23 you talked about Judge Quesada, you heard about he was 24 blackmailed. You heard I was blackmailed. I can 25 guarantee you that's not true either. They know that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1858 1 I don't like people coming in here even 2 thinking that, let alone saying it. The truth of the 3 matter is when you leave this Court, if you don't 4 leave with anything else, you'd better understand that 5 our system here, no matter what you heard by 6 Mr. Dandar, the Church of Scientology, is a pretty 7 upstanding system. That includes the prosecutor, and 8 that includes the Court. And if you don't believe it, 9 I'm here to tell you that it's true. 10 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- your Honor, I 11 haven't personally been in front of you before. I 12 understand the way you feel and your integrity. But 13 please understand that the atmosphere that was created 14 here by the things that Mr. Dandar and Mr. Merrett 15 both constantly were harping on was the thing that was 16 leading Stacy Brooks and I to believe that there was 17 some truth to what they were saying. 18 THE COURT: Trust me -- 19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Trust me that when Mr. Dandar 21 takes the witness stand, I've got a few questions to 22 him to see whether or not he said those things. If he 23 did, I'm going to find out why. 24 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm sorry. 25 THE COURT: It's all right. I just can't
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1859 1 have it. I can't, you know -- Bernie McCabe and I are 2 friends. We've been friends for years. I know that 3 Mr. McCabe has a great integrity, and I know that he 4 would not ever be influenced by anyone as to whether 5 to file charges or whether to drop charges. If you 6 believe that transcript, with that even -- I just 7 couldn't do it. 8 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I would agree with 9 you on that. I have known and worked with him for a 10 number of years also. 11 THE COURT: You would know the same. 12 MR. FUGATE: I do. 13 THE COURT: You would know that your client 14 would have absolutely no influence on him. He would 15 make his decisions basically based on what -- and I 16 don't think your clients think they have any influence 17 on them. Don't misunderstand. But I think this man 18 thinks they do, and I wanted to clear that up. 19 MR. FUGATE: Let me see if I can address 20 that with Mr. Minton here. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q I think that, as you have testified about -- you 23 know, we've had testimony about the Stacy Brooks harassment 24 time line; we've had Mr. Dandar's cross-examination about 25 all manner of events that you described that you perceived
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1860 1 were happening to you, some you absolutely believe the 2 Church was involved in, some others you just suspect. 3 Is -- and my question is, Has there been an 4 evolution in your perception about the events that have 5 been going on in this case beginning with your involvement 6 in it, up to and including today? Do you understand the 7 question? 8 A Well, the change in perception has been that at 9 some point, sort of towards the middle of 2001, Scientology 10 made a conscious decision to utilize the legal system to 11 come after us and more or less forgot about, you know, the 12 type of harassment that would be on that harassment time 13 line. 14 I mean, in fact, we were going to put the legal 15 stuff on that time line, but, you know, the things were 16 happening so quick, we couldn't even keep track of it. 17 Mr. Merrett couldn't even give us the details of things 18 because it was all happening too fast. There was too much 19 paperwork. 20 You know, but, yes, that legal -- that legal 21 thrust was, you know, the time when we really realized that 22 Scientology was very serious. 23 Q Mr. Dandar asked you a question about what were 24 the two worst things that you -- in your discussions with 25 Mr. Rinder that you believed -- that you were told that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1861 1 they thought you had done, and you told us about 2 Mr. Rinder's baby. What was the second thing? 3 A Well, this concerned the -- the death of 4 Mr. Moxon's daughter, Stacey. Last year -- I think it was 5 last year in California. And, you know, myself and other 6 people more or less jumped on the bandwagon and said that 7 this girl was being held in a vault, an electric vault, and 8 ended up being electrocuted. And that was -- I know from 9 Mr. Rinder that this was a troubling thing for Mr. Moxon. 10 And what happened was the story that was told by 11 Scientology originally, that this was an accident, that she 12 had gone down in there, she had her foot on a metal ladder 13 and slipped in some oil with one foot and touched this 14 electrical generator. 15 And there wasn't -- you know, based on what I was 16 told, there was nothing nefarious about this, that this was 17 a young woman who was out on some break time and cared 18 about animals and was actually trying to save a squirrel, a 19 baby squirrel, that had gone down in this thing. 20 Q But at the time that you posted the postings that 21 you just described, your mentality is different than it is 22 today. Is that a fair statement? 23 A Yes. I'd say that, you know, that what has 24 happened is that, you know, people will always believe the 25 worst about Scientology, and --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1862 1 Q Including you. 2 A At that time, yes. And, you know, I'm -- you 3 know, I was, you know, upset here yesterday because -- you 4 know, I was very ashamed of what I had said to Mr. Rinder. 5 I was very ashamed of having bought into the story that was 6 made up by Vicki Aznaran during this Fishman case. 7 And it was a story that, you know, everybody just 8 assumed, because it was so bad, that it had to be true 9 because it was about people in Scientology and it was about 10 how terrible Miscavige was for his heartlessness in not 11 allowing Mr. Rinder to come to his daughter's funeral. 12 And, you know, I -- Mr. Dandar asked me if I 13 believed this because Mr. Rinder told me. Well, you know a 14 father whose child dies doesn't speak of this in the way 15 Mr. Rinder spoke of it without me believing exactly what he 16 said happened. 17 Q And I believe I heard you say at some point that 18 you and Mr. -- you apologized to Mr. Rinder for your 19 comments and your beliefs about that particular incident. 20 A I did. I did. 21 Q And I guess my question is, Is that -- at the 22 time when you -- as you've now said, jumped to those 23 conclusions, took advantage of those situations and posted 24 on the Internet, that was a time when you were -- I think 25 you've described yourself as Scientologist Public Enemy
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1863 1 No. 1. Is that correct? 2 A Right. 3 Q And was it your perception -- I think you said 4 you -- when Mr. Dandar said, "Don't talk about these two 5 UBS checks," you said you didn't do that for the good of 6 the case. Was that your mentality back during this period 7 of time? 8 A Oh, that was -- 9 MR. DANDAR: Correction. What period of 10 time? 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q The time of the depositions in May and in 13 September and October of 2001 -- May of 2000, September, 14 and October. 15 A Yes. That just would relate to the one check. 16 Q Oh, I know, I -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q That's correct. That was your perception? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, you said in the hearing in front of Judge 21 Schaeffer when, as you said, you dodged a bullet, you 22 apologized to Judge Schaeffer for the -- your actions. And 23 if I remember, you -- correct me if I'm wrong -- you said: 24 "It won't happen again. Perhaps I had some bad advice." 25 Do you recall making statements like that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1864 1 A I do. 2 Q And do you recall saying that you were going to 3 meet with Mr. Howie, and you were going to sit down and you 4 were going to do your best to correct the record? 5 A Yes, I remember that. 6 Q And that was just after the criminal contempt had 7 been -- you had been acquitted on it, correct? 8 A Right. 9 Q But you also were aware that you were going to 10 have to go, sir, were you not, and testify again and answer 11 the questions that you had invoked the Fifth Amendment on 12 as to the funding and as to the checks? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And so there's no mistake about it -- and I think 15 I started off there yesterday -- have you been told by 16 Mr. Jonas that you could not -- you could not not reveal 17 the UBS checks? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And did you tell that to Mr. Dandar in your phone 20 conversations with him on the evenings of the 28th and the 21 29th? 22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I want to make a record. 23 There's just been a waiver of attorney-client 24 privilege? 25 THE COURT: Absolutely. Absolutely.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1865 1 A The -- the -- the conversations -- we didn't 2 discuss that on the 28th. It was on the evening of the 3 29th and the morning of the 30th that I discussed that with 4 Mr. Dandar. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q And what was his advice to you when you told him 7 what you thought you had to do? 8 A "You can't do that. I haven't reported these 9 checks to the Court. Concentrate on the checks you've 10 written." 11 Q Was that the same advice that you'd gotten before 12 the May 2000 deposition? 13 A Yes, "Concentrate on the checks you've written." 14 Q Do you feel like you have tried to -- I guess 15 your term was set the record straight, but to tell the 16 truth about those checks and advise this Court and Judge 17 Baird about what you best recall happened? 18 A I'm sorry, Mr. Fugate, my mind was wandering at 19 the beginning of that question. Could you repeat it? 20 THE COURT: And what difference would it 21 make what he thought? Don't you think it would maybe 22 matter what I thought? If we have to have another 23 proffer at the end of his testimony or not -- 24 MR. FUGATE: You're right, Judge. 25 THE COURT: All right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1866 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q I'll withdraw the question, Mr. Minton, so you 3 don't have to even think about it. 4 Now, did Mr. Dandar tell you why he wanted you to 5 provide him funds that were untraceable? 6 A Number one, that he wanted to -- 7 THE COURT: Haven't we been through this 8 too? I mean, this has -- I can tell you the reason. 9 I mean, I know we've been through it a couple times. 10 He didn't want Scientology to know about the money and 11 he wanted to not have to pay his employees. 12 Wasn't that it? Is that it? 13 THE WITNESS: That's it, and that the funds 14 couldn't be traced back to me. 15 THE COURT: Oh, I don't remember that. That 16 was the third thing -- 17 THE WITNESS: For the purposes of, you know, 18 appearing to be -- me less involved, distant -- more 19 distant from the case. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q To distance you and LMT from the wrongful death 22 case? 23 A Yes, because of all of the allegations by 24 Scientology in terms of, you know, the improper purpose of 25 the case, the business deal between, you know, Minton and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1867 1 the Estate. Anything to distance my financial involvement 2 would help distance me from the case. 3 MR. FUGATE: That's all the questions I 4 have, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 6 Recross? 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: You were brief, Mr. Fugate. 9 Thank you. 10 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. I'm trying. 11 THE COURT: Yes. You did fine. 12 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Mr. Minton, since you gave your first check of 15 $100,000 in October '97 until March of 2002, were you ever 16 in control of the wrongful death case of Lisa McPherson? 17 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object. That's 18 outside of the scope of the redirect. 19 THE COURT: Well, it's also been asked and 20 answered. 21 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Now, they asked you questions this morning about 24 the movie, The Profit. I've got some follow-up questions. 25 When you and Peter Alexander struck a deal to do a movie,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1868 1 you gave him your first check to fund that endeavor in 2 January of 2000. Do you recall that? 3 A I think that's about the right time. 4 Q Then in February of 2000, the first week, I 5 think, the final contract was signed between you and Peter 6 Alexander? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And -- 9 A February 7th was the date of it. 10 Q And the trial -- the trial of the Lisa McPherson 11 wrongful death case at that time, February of 2000, the 12 trial was scheduled for June of 2000 before Judge Moody. 13 Did you know that? 14 A I don't remember, but I remember when you got the 15 500,000 there was a trial scheduled somewhat later that was 16 going to cost $500,000 to get to. So it wasn't 17 obviously -- I don't know what the situation with the trial 18 date in January or February was. 19 Q And the production for The Profit didn't start 20 until August of 2000. Do you remember that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q So apparently that movie had nothing to do with 23 trying to influence anybody in Pinellas County if the trial 24 was going to begin in Hillsborough County in June of 2000. 25 A Well, I don't think -- and I think you'll be the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1869 1 first to agree with this -- you told me that it's no 2 telling when this thing will start. 3 Q The movie or the trial? 4 A The trial. And, you know, I mean, here we are 5 two years later. 6 Q Now, how much of the script of the movie, The 7 Profit, did I contribute to? 8 A I don't know what your involvement in that, if 9 any, was. I have no idea. 10 Q Did you hear me or anyone else tell you in any 11 way that I had anything to do with the writing of the movie 12 or the production of the movie? 13 A No. 14 Q Now, you talked about a theory that was created 15 by Vaughn Young concerning David Miscavige. What is that 16 theory that you attribute solely to Vaughn Young? 17 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 MR. DANDAR: This was on redirect. 20 A That -- 21 THE WITNESS: I'm supposed to answer, your 22 Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 A Yes. That David Miscavige was responsible for 25 L. Ron Hubbard's death. That's the theory that Vaughn
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1870 1 Young came up with. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q And as you sit here today under oath, aren't 4 there a lot of other people that wrote books about that or 5 included chapters in their books about that so-called 6 theory? 7 A I don't know whether there are. Just from what 8 my understanding is, Vaughn Young is the person who came up 9 with that theory originally. 10 Q And did Vaughn Young -- did he work in the Office 11 of Special Affairs when he was a Scientologist? 12 A I believe. You know, I'm not sure of the timing 13 of this, but I think he was in what was called the 14 Guardian's Office. 15 Q Was he the public relations man for the 16 Guardian's Office? 17 A He was. 18 Q Was he also, before he joined Scientology, a 19 candidate for a Ph.D. degree? 20 A I believe I've heard that, yes. 21 Q Was he also -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor -- 23 Q -- a biographer for -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to -- excuse me. 25 Since Mr. Fugate has sort of stepped aside for a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1871 1 moment -- 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. WEINBERG: -- I'm just going to object. 4 This is beyond the scope of all -- 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MR. DANDAR: They brought it up -- 7 THE COURT: I know you're going into about 8 Mr. Hubbard -- whatever this man's name is and all his 9 credentials and what have you. What do I care? 10 MR. DANDAR: Because when they said he 11 created this theory, I want this man to know this man 12 has extensive background with the Church of 13 Scientology. 14 THE COURT: Then call him to the stand. 15 MR. DANDAR: I am. I'm bringing him in. 16 THE COURT: Well, then we don't need to hear 17 anything from him. 18 MR. DANDAR: All right. 19 THE COURT: I certainly never read 20 anything -- and I've read a lot, for whatever it's 21 worth, that you all have provided to me, books and 22 books and books and books and manuals and books and 23 coaching and what have you. I never heard that. This 24 is the first time I ever heard that, was when this was 25 coming out from Mr. Fugate and Mr. Minton. I was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1872 1 totally unaware of this. So, I don't know, maybe 2 there's some theories out there, but it must be in the 3 anti-cult group. I mean, nobody else ever heard of 4 that. 5 MR. DANDAR: I agree with you. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: That's why I'm asking the 8 questions. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q And one last question on this theory. Are you -- 11 you are aware of litigation in the L. Ron Hubbard Estate 12 concerning forged signatures, of his signature, to get 13 copyrights transferred to some entity in the Church of 14 Scientology? 15 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'll object to that 16 as being outside the scope of redirect. 17 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 18 A Could you ask that again? I'm sorry. There was 19 the first part of the question which I was a little bit 20 unsure about. 21 BY MR. DANDER: 22 Q Are you aware of litigation involving the Estate 23 of L. Ron Hubbard where there's allegations of forged 24 signatures of Mr. Hubbard transferring copyright or 25 trademarks to an entity in the Church of Scientology?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1873 1 THE COURT: I agree. I think that is out -- 2 why isn't that outside the scope of this little brief 3 redirect? 4 MR. DANDAR: Because I think he asked a 5 question about this, forged signatures. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. FUGATE: I don't -- 8 THE COURT: If he didn't, I'll strike it 9 from the transcript. I don't know if he did or 10 didn't. 11 MR. DANDAR: All right. 12 THE COURT: I mean, I think this whole 13 thing -- you know what I think of this whole thing. I 14 tried to explain it to you all several times. 15 Go ahead. 16 Go ahead. 17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q You said that Mr. Peter Alexander only had $100 20 invested in the movie, The Profit? 21 A That's what I understand, yes. 22 Q All right. That's not giving any credit for all 23 the work of writing the script and producing the movie? 24 A He was paid for writing the script out of the 25 budget of the movie. You know, he was paid handsomely, you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1874 1 know, well enough that he's been living well as a result of 2 his just working on the movie. 3 Q Also -- 4 A And Ms. Greenway as well. 5 Q So he was a deadbeat before he met you? 6 A I didn't say that. 7 Q Mr. Minton, the lawsuit that Mr. Fugate 8 extensively asked you questions about that Stacy Brooks was 9 served with for copyright infringement, that suit resulted 10 because of your postings of snippets of The Profit on the 11 LMT Web site was infringing on the copyright of Courage 12 Productions. 13 THE COURT: Didn't I tell you all that you 14 couldn't get into that? 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. In the 16 agreement that's signed on there, he's the owner of 17 the copyright. 18 THE COURT: You know, maybe I did -- I think 19 you did persuade me that somehow this was relevant. 20 So go on ahead. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Isn't that true -- 23 THE COURT: Or I probably didn't, but I 24 probably let you ask the questions anyway. 25 MR. DANDAR: I think that's what you did.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1875 1 THE COURT: I think that's what I did. So 2 if it's irrelevant, go ask some more irrelevant 3 questions. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Isn't that true, Mr. Minton? That the result of 6 these letters being written to the Web site and Ms. Brooks 7 is because you insisted on putting back up snippets of the 8 movie, The Profit? 9 A Could you ask the question again from the 10 beginning. 11 Q Isn't it true that the letters under the Digital 12 Copyright Act to the ISP provider of the LMT and the 13 letters to Stacy Brooks and the lawsuit were the result of 14 you insisting on having snippets of this movie, The Profit, 15 up on the Web site? 16 A I didn't insist they be put up on the Web site. 17 I put them on the Web site. So if I'm the copyright 18 violator, why wasn't I sued? 19 Q And isn't that because you have an arbitration 20 clause in the contract with Courage Productions? 21 A I don't know. 22 THE COURT: Can I ask you all, when you say 23 "snippets," what I've seen are like four pictures. Is 24 that what you all consider snippets? Or do you mean 25 there's actually a little running --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1876 1 THE WITNESS: For the three snippets that 2 were up there which were the subject of the lawsuit. 3 There's four that were not subject to the lawsuit. It 4 was three snippets. It included Mr. Dandar's FBI 5 appearance, a little bit of the beginning of the film, 6 and a snippet -- a part which Ms. Greenway played. 7 All told, I think they were four minutes -- 8 THE COURT: But it was actually a little 9 bit -- 10 THE WITNESS: -- four to five minutes of the 11 two-plus-hour movie. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Why did you put those up? 15 A Because, you know, I guess I thought you had 16 blackmailed us to get them down. 17 Q When did I blackmail you to get them down? 18 A When you, quote, brokered the deal with Stacy 19 Brooks to have them taken down. 20 Q And what is your understanding of how I 21 blackmailed Stacy Brooks to take them down? 22 A Well, you know, the smear campaign is not going 23 to stop unless you do this. That sounds to me blackmail or 24 extortion, whatever you want to call it. You know, I'm not 25 trying to accuse you of that. I'm just saying that's what
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1877 1 it appeared to me. 2 Q This was in what month and what year? 3 A That would have been just after you left New 4 Hampshire and went back to Tampa, I guess. 5 Q Well, didn't you -- 6 A Or Odessa. 7 Q Didn't you tell me that the so-called smear 8 campaign on the Internet or alt.religion.scientology was 9 causing you a great distress and you wish it would stop? 10 A What I told you was that it was causing me a 11 great deal of distress. The main reason it was causing me 12 distress was that I believed you were orchestrating it. 13 Q And did I tell you I was not orchestrating it? 14 A You told me a lot of things that weekend which 15 were not true. 16 THE COURT: That is not the question. You 17 have to answer that question, please. 18 A Yes, you did say that. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Wasn't this way before the weekend that we had 21 the discussion on the telephone about you being upset about 22 this smear campaign by two people, one named Tigger, a 23 nickname, and another named Deanna Holmes? 24 A No, there wasn't a discussion before that weekend 25 other than the one you brought up the other day, which I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1878 1 said didn't happen. You said: "Didn't Jesse -- didn't you 2 send Jesse Prince to me" to get you to stop this thing? 3 And I said, "No, I didn't send Jesse Prince to 4 you." And I gave you an example. It's Jesse Prince 5 speaking for somebody he's not authorized to speak for. 6 Q Well, part of the -- by the way, did you get 7 together with Mr. Rinder or Mr. Shaw or Mr. Fugate or 8 anyone to prepare you for this morning's questions? 9 A No. 10 Q Did you know in advance what kind of questions 11 were going to be asked by Mr. Fugate? 12 A No. 13 Q Okay. Defendant's Exhibit 140 are the postings 14 of the two people that caused you a lot of concern on the 15 alt.religion.scientology, this person with the nickname of 16 Tigger and this other, Deanna Holmes. And I'm going to 17 turn to -- 18 A I've still got the exhibit up here -- 19 Q Turn to page 6 -- 20 A -- 140. 21 Q -- where it's called "Tigger's Time Line." 22 A Page 6? 23 Q M'hum (affirmative). 24 A Three, four, five. Six. 25 Q See "Tigger's Time Line"?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1879 1 A M'hum (affirmative). 2 THE REPORTER: Yes? 3 THE COURT: That's a yes? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q "February 17th, I was told about Minton's offer 7 to donate to the Lisa McPherson case if I and Deanna would 8 shut up about the LMT, Minton, Brooks, and Bunker." Does 9 that kind of refresh your memory that before February 17th 10 you had requested me, either directly or through a third 11 party, to please have these people stop talking about me on 12 the alt.religion.scientology? 13 A It does not refresh my memory, and I did not 14 authorize or ask any third party to contact you. 15 Q All right. Now -- now that you've entered all of 16 these negotiations with the Church of Scientology, why do 17 you continue to have the LMT, Lisa McPherson Trust, Web 18 site up on the Internet? 19 A Well, as I've said before, we're not in 20 negotiations -- the Web site, you know, may or may not come 21 up in negotiations when we get to negotiations. We have it 22 up. You know, they haven't stopped filing lawsuits. You 23 know, we haven't stopped keeping the Web site up there. 24 Q And that continues to put pressure on you by the 25 fact that you're named in the Gerry Armstrong suit and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1880 1 you're named in the breach suit before Judge Baird, and now 2 you're named in the counterclaim here in the death case. 3 Right? 4 A Those are uncomfortable things, yes. 5 Q And if you had somehow convinced the Church of 6 Scientology that you would never cause any funding at all 7 to come to Ken Dandar for the use of any Lisa McPherson 8 litigation, aren't you absolutely positive that if you can 9 convince them of that all of your troubles would disappear? 10 A No. 11 Q And on the LMT Web site that you still -- that's 12 still operating, isn't it true that pictures of you and 13 Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince and other -- Mark Bunker and 14 others are up on that Web site? 15 A I haven't looked at it recently, other than when 16 I uploaded The Profit clips. 17 Q How about the last time you looked at it? 18 A Well, I didn't even look at it that time. I was 19 doing it by FDP, so I didn't look at the site. 20 Q What about the last time you recall pictures of 21 people involved with the LMT? Am I right, those are some 22 of the pictures that are up there? 23 A You know, I believe you're right. I don't know 24 whether they're still there, but I believe you're right. 25 Q Has my picture ever been up on the LMT Web site?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1881 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Did I tell you or Stacy Brooks to even create an 3 LMT Web site? 4 A I don't think you did. You didn't tell me. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Let me see. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Now, you said you haven't talked to Patricia 8 Greenway for how long? 9 A Since -- well, I hadn't had any detailed 10 discussions with Patricia Greenway since early January. 11 And even then, I think the detailed discussions were with 12 Peter Alexander. So it would have been sometime before 13 then. But as I said, there were, around this courthouse 14 within the recent six weeks, some brief encounters. 15 Q What about the courthouse in Clearwater when the 16 Judge Baird hearings were going on? Don't you recall 17 talking to Patricia Greenway for an hour outside? 18 A No. 19 Q Inside? 20 A I did talk to her a little bit outside, not -- 21 certainly not for an hour. 22 Q Over a half an hour? 23 A You know, I -- I wouldn't -- I wouldn't be sure 24 of the time. But, you know, we had a few cigarettes, you 25 know, maybe three, four cigarettes, however long that might
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1882 1 have taken. 2 Q Mr. Minton, besides Gerry Armstrong, have you 3 given any money to anyone else to have them pay you back 4 money? 5 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just object to 6 that being outside the scope of redirect. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 MR. DANDAR: It is, but I would just like to 9 have that -- 10 THE COURT: Well, I've sustained the 11 objection. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: You can call him as your 14 witness. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q So before the Church of Scientology entered your 18 life, you had never been sued before? 19 A No. 20 Q Now, before you decided to take on the Church of 21 Scientology, you knew, didn't you, that they used the court 22 systems all around the world as much as they can? 23 A Well, I knew they were involved in litigation. 24 Q You knew that they lost the Wollersheim case in 25 his original judgment. You knew they lost the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1883 1 Kristopherson case and the original jury verdict. But you 2 knew about all the copyright cases that -- 3 MR. FUGATE: I object to this as being 4 outside the scope of redirect to go back through a 5 history of other cases. 6 THE COURT: He's talking now about the 7 copyright cases, and I think that was brought up. So 8 overruled. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q And you knew about all the copyright cases that 11 they won, correct? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q And those copyright cases involved not only 14 copyright penalties, but also a huge amount of attorney 15 fees have been awarded against people, correct? 16 A Against -- you mean the people who infringed the 17 copyright? 18 Q Right. 19 A Well, you know, there was one person who was -- 20 who got the highest -- $75,000 for a single infringement. 21 You know, I think Arnie Lerma got fined $7,000. FACTNet, 22 as you know, we entered into a settlement agreement and 23 ended up with -- I forget the name of it. It's a 24 stipulated judgment, but I know that's not -- a liquidated 25 damages clause for a million dollars, provided that there
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1884 1 were, you know, no further infringements. You know, Grady 2 Ward was required to pay in settlement of that case $200 a 3 month for the rest of his life. 4 Q But before you got involved with FACTNet, were 5 they already in litigation with Bridge Publications, a 6 Church of Scientology entity? 7 A I'm just trying to think when that lawsuit was 8 filed. I believe it was late -- August '95? '6? '95, I 9 believe. 10 Q And were you involved then, or did you get 11 involved afterwards? 12 A I was giving money to FACTNet at that time. 13 Q Okay. So -- and Mr. Abelson, attorney for the 14 Church of Scientology, talked to you on the phone and sent 15 you a threatening letter that we've already talked about -- 16 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, again -- 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q -- in '97 -- 19 MR. DANDAR: Can I finish my question first? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. DANDAR: I swear that's a tactic that's 22 used all the time. 23 MR. FUGATE: Object. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Mr. Abelson, counsel for the --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1885 1 THE COURT: Let him ask his question. 2 Go on ahead. 3 MR. DANDAR: And this all has to do with 4 redirect, I'm going to show you. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. DANDAR: Two questions. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Mr. Abelson, counsel for the Church of 9 Scientology, not only talked to you on the phone to 10 question you whether you had provided funds to the Lisa 11 McPherson case, and also sent you a threatening letter 12 saying that they would hold you responsible if you funded 13 and helped fund the Lisa McPherson case back in 1997. Do 14 you recall that? 15 A No. I recall Mr. Abelson having spoken with me 16 in September of '97, I believe, late September. And about 17 six months later, sometime in 1998, he wrote a letter, 18 which was primarily -- you know, perhaps we have it in 19 evidence here. 20 Q We do. 21 A Okay. Well, maybe we could look at it. But as I 22 recall, this was about fomenting hatred in Clearwater and 23 putting Church people in danger and that -- 24 THE COURT: Let's just let us all look at it 25 when we -- when it's --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1886 1 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to look at it now. 2 Right. 3 THE COURT: Thank you. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Well, the point of all these questions is, now, 6 isn't it true then, sir, Mr. Minton, that you certainly 7 were not intimidated or afraid that the Church of 8 Scientology was going to sue you because of your 9 involvement in funding the Lisa McPherson case? 10 A I was -- sorry, just let me see if I've got your 11 question. I was not intimidated at the thought that they 12 were going to sue me? 13 Q Right. 14 A Over funding the Lisa McPherson case? 15 Q Right. 16 A No, I wasn't intimidated at that prospect. I 17 didn't think that would happen. 18 Q In fact, when they even talked about and you got 19 a copy of the RICO chart that's in evidence, they never -- 20 that didn't intimidated you either, that they were 21 connecting you to this spiderweb of all the people or cases 22 you provided funds to? 23 A That's right. As I said, you know, that 24 subsequently became an excuse for pleading the Fifth 25 Amendment.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1887 1 Q So Mr. Rinder being a triggerman, as you said on 2 redirect, and aiming at you and others, that had nothing to 3 do with Scientology suing you. That had to do with 4 Scientology finding out about your money in Europe, didn't 5 it. 6 A No. It had to do with the immediate threats, 7 which were going to jail for contempt -- 8 THE COURT: You know, you're going to get 9 the same answer that you got the first time -- 10 MR. DANDAR: I know. 11 THE COURT: -- you asked it and probably the 12 second and the third. I think the fourth time I 13 stopped you and said you were going to get the same 14 answer. I almost fell asleep that time. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Defendant's Exhibit 141, the proposed agreement 17 dated May 27th, 1998, did you have anything to do with 18 drafting any of the clauses in here? 19 A I don't think so. 20 Q Did you talk about what this release should say 21 before it was typed up? 22 A Oh, it was presented. You know, this was 23 presented as a point of discussion -- 24 Q Okay. 25 A -- you know, and I was surprised that it was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1888 1 presented. You know, it hadn't been talked about before. 2 It just showed up on the coffee table in the Celebrity 3 Centre on the 6th or 14th floor, something like that. 4 Q Have they given you a copy of this? 5 A I didn't walk away with a copy of it. They gave 6 me a copy, but I left it on the table. 7 Q Paragraph A on page 2, the first thing it talks 8 about is that, quote: Minton agrees that he will not 9 voluntarily fund -- voluntarily fund -- 10 A I'm sorry, where are we? 11 Q Page 2 -- I'm sorry, 4A. 12 A Oh, okay, sorry. 13 Q Do they talk about trying to get you to agree not 14 to fund the Lisa McPherson case? 15 A Well, I think this is all litigation here. 16 Q Yes, but that -- 17 A That's covered. It would have included that, 18 yes. 19 Q Okay. Paragraph 4B says the Church agrees not to 20 litigate a claim against Mr. Minton. Did they talk about 21 that as being one of their concessions? 22 A Well, I think it was talked about in terms of 23 the -- the mutual release, that we wouldn't -- either one 24 of us wouldn't legally come after each other again in any 25 way.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1889 1 Q Paragraph 7B -- 2 A Not that we hadn't already, but we wouldn't in 3 the future. 4 Q Paragraph 7B on page 4 states that the Church 5 also agrees that it would not investigate Mr. Minton or any 6 of his family members. Did they talk about that in your 7 discussions? 8 A As I said, this was the way the thing was 9 presented. This was more or less what was put in front of 10 me. There wasn't a discussion about it beforehand. This 11 is just what showed up on the coffee table, and they asked 12 me to read it. 13 Q So you did read it, right? 14 A I did. 15 Q And then you refused to sign it? 16 A I did. Yet another mistake that I've made. 17 Q In paragraph 6B at the top of page 4, it says the 18 Church agrees that it will not initiate contact with any 19 media on the subject of Minton. And I asked last time on 20 this, did they talk about that, they were going to somehow 21 talk about you in the media? 22 A No. I think there's a similar thing relative to 23 me on 6A, and these were just mirror images, that we would 24 both agree not to do this, that I wouldn't be talking to 25 the media on the subject of Scientology, the Church of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1890 1 Scientology, the Church parties, or any other person or 2 entity associated with them, and then I would do the same. 3 You know, it was sort of -- I mean, I look at it now, and 4 it's sort of like this mutual injunction that existed from 5 Judge Penick's court. 6 Q Now, Mr. Fugate asked you about picketing in 7 Clearwater and about the mess hall where the buses would 8 come up. 9 THE COURT: I can tell you're not really 10 done, and I really need to break at 12:00. You're not 11 done; Mr. Howie is going to have something to do. So 12 you can't get Mr. Minton off the stand anyway. So 13 we're breaking. We'll be in recess until -- I hate to 14 do this, but until 1:30. 15 (The lunch recess was taken at 12:05 p.m.) 16 ____________________________________ 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 14, Page 1891 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 30th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25