3                      CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
7   Representative of the ESTATE OF
9             Plaintiff,
10   vs.                                     VOLUME 3
17   PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
CONTENTS:           Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young.
DATE:               June 18, 2002, morning session.
PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
21                       St. Petersburg, Florida.
22   BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
REPORTED BY:        Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
24                       Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.


3   5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4   Attorneys for Plaintiff.
6   112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7   Attorney for Plaintiff
9   1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10   Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
13   101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14   Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17   New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18   Organization.
20   150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
21   Attorney for LMT.


2                                                  PAGE   LINE
3   REDIRECT            Mr. Dandar                 317     17
CROSS               Mr. Weinberg               343      2
4   Recess                                         354     24
Reporter's Certificate                         355      1


1           (The proceedings were resumed at 9:03 a.m.)
2             THE COURT:  Good morning.  The videotapes -- I
3        have gone through them.  Most of them I've made a
4        decision on.  Some of them I have not.  To resolve
5        it during the first break or this afternoon's break,
6        I'm going to need to meet with lead counsel for the
7        church, for the defense -- I mean for the estate,
8        and the lawyer for LMT.  So if he could be
9        available?  We'll just go in chambers.  There are a
10        few of them I just can't determine from my
11        knowledge.  Or I may have some -- some where I'm not
12        sure.  We'll see if we can get some agreement.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  And you want to do that during
14        the lunch break?
15             THE COURT:  No.  I really want to do it during
16        a morning or an afternoon break.  We'll just take
17        about a half-hour break and get it done.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  We need to call Mr. McGowan.
19             THE COURT:  Yes.  I don't want to do it without
20        him since technically he is -- as attorney for LMT
21        or I guess -- Mr. Bunker?  Is that his name?
22             MR. WEINBERG:  Both, yes.
23             THE COURT:  May have some input on this.  So as
24        soon as that can be done.  I can turn them over.
25        I'll have to do an order, but I think that can come


1        after the fact.
3             Now, Mr. Dandar, you had indicated you wouldn't
4        have time to go look at these, but I presume you
5        want a copy of them.
6             MR. DANDAR:  I'd like to have a copy of the
7        summary. And I think --
8             THE COURT:  No.  You can't have a copy of the
9        summary --
10             MR. DANDAR:  Oh.
11             THE COURT:  -- because I'm not giving everybody
12        all of that.
13             MR. DANDAR:  I --
14             THE COURT:  That's going to be sealed.
15             MR. DANDAR:  I sent a letter to Mr. Keane, I
16        believe, asking for any and all videos of, and then
17        I've listed Jesse Prince, Teresa Summers, myself, my
18        clients.  I'm not interested in anybody else.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, he's not going -- I
20        can tell you this, he's not going to turn them over
21        to you.
22             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  So --
23             THE COURT:  Because he's going to turn them
24        over to me and he's going to do whatever I tell him.
25             MR. DANDAR:  Whatever procedure you set up


1        I'll -- I'd like to be there and --
2             THE COURT:  What I'm going to do is order them
3        to be released.  If you want a copy of them you'll
4        get a copy of them.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  All right.
6             THE COURT:  Okay?
7             MR. DANDAR:  You're going to order -- I missed
8        something.  You're going to order to be released,
9        what?
10             THE COURT:  Probably about 150 tapes.
11             MR. DANDAR:  I don't want 150 tapes, no.
12             THE COURT:  Well, then you'll have to I guess
13        figure out how you're going to do it, because I
14        don't know that I'm going to tell you all exactly
15        what I'm releasing.
16             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
17             THE COURT:  You know, I guess what you can do
18        is tell Mr. Keane what it is you want, and then if
19        they're part of whatever part of the tapes that I've
20        ordered him to release, he'll release those.
21             MR. DANDAR:  That's how I'll do it.
22             THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.
23             Mr. Young, you want to resume the stand,
24        please?
25             Madam Clerk, I've had a chance to read these


1        and so these can be filed in my book.  I didn't get
2        through all of them.  The ones that I hadn't gotten
3        through I'll have to bring them back tomorrow.
4             Madam Clerk, how are you coming on books down
5        there?
6             THE CLERK:  I'm going to need a couple -- at
7        least three more.
8             THE COURT:  At least three more?  I may be
9        running out of notebooks.  I'm probably not, but I'm
10        running out of those that I can throw the stuff out
11        to give her the notebooks.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  (Inaudible.)
13             THE COURT:  Okay.
14             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I'm handling to the clerk
15        the request for judicial notice that contains all of
16        the notice of filing additional documents in support
17        of the plaintiff's motion to add parties.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.
19             MR. DANDAR:  What you found over there --
20             THE COURT:  Yes.
21             MR. DANDAR:  It's right there.
22             THE COURT:  Okay.
23             MR. DANDAR:  And I'd like to mark that as our
24        next exhibit.
25             THE CLERK:  Number 103.


1             MR. DANDAR:  And move it into evidence.
2             THE COURT:  All right.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  That's fine.  We don't have any
4        objection.
5             THE COURT:  That's plaintiff's, right?
6             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
7             And then just from yesterday, Exhibit 203,
8        which was the list of Vaughn Young's affidavits or
9        declarations, and I just hadn't offered them.
10             MR. DANDAR:  I have no objection.
11             THE COURT:  Number 203?  Is that this page
12        right here?
13             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
15             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I'd also like to let you
16        know on the record that Mr. Young advised me this
17        morning that yesterday late afternoon after 4 was
18        very difficult for him.  He's in excruciating pain.
19        He took three Tylenols which helped.  But this
20        morning he's nauseated and doesn't feel too well.
21        But he wants to get this finished.
22             THE COURT:  All right.  I'm hoping that --
23             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't have many questions, so
24        it's up to him.
25             THE COURT:  All right.  You're done?


1             MR. DANDAR:  Oh, you're done?
2             MR. WEINBERG:  No, I said I don't have many
3        questions.
4             THE COURT:  Many questions, all right.
5             MR. WEINBERG:  Can I proceed?
6             THE COURT:  You may.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Thank you.
8             THE COURT:  Good morning, Mr. Young.
9             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, your Honor.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Good morning, Mr. Young.
11             THE COURT:  What day is today?  Does anybody --
12             MR. WEINBERG:  It's Tuesday.
13             THE COURT:  By that I mean what number date?
14        Number eight?
15             MR. LIROT:  No, no, no.  You're talking about
16        hearing date?
17             THE COURT:  Yes.
18             MR. LIROT:  25.
19             THE CLERK:  18th.
20             MR. LIROT:  But the 18th of June.
21             THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.
23        Q    A few cleanup matters, Mr. Young.  Yesterday
24   Mr. Dandar showed you some pages that you said you had
25   copied from the public IRS file concerning the church's


1   submission to get the tax exemption?
2        A    Yes.
3        Q    Do you remember that?
4             What I want to hand up to you and have the -- and
5   you remember it was part of a section of the submission but
6   not the whole part of the section.
7        A    Yes.
8        Q    Okay.  I want to hand you up the whole part of the
9   section and have you look at it and identify it so that we
10   can have the whole part and not just a couple pages.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Just mark this the next exhibit,
12        please.
13             THE COURT:  What is this?  I'm sorry.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  This is the church's response in
15        the tax-exempt submission to the question about the
16        Sea Org to the IRS that Mr. Young put in a couple of
17        pages from that response yesterday, and this is the
18        whole response.
19             THE COURT:  All right.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  This is 209.  The whole response
21        to that question.
22             THE COURT:  Okay.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  That would be 209.
25        Q    If you could just look at Exhibit 209, tell us if


1   that appears to be the full response to question 3A, which
2   is the -- from which you drew the -- I think you'll
3   recognize them -- the page 3-5 which had the ranks of the
4   Sea Org people?
5        A    I'm looking at it now.
6        Q    Okay.
7        A    All right.  I've looked at it.  And your question?
8        Q    My question is, is -- this is what you saw in the
9   file at the IRS, correct?  This entire response?
10        A    Yes.  It does appear to be that.
11        Q    All right.  And what you did in your declaration
12   is you just took a page or two from this answer, is that
13   right?
14        A    Yes.  It was just what was relevant to the
15   declaration I was making, which was just to the point of
16   brevet rank.
17        Q    I couldn't hear that last part.
18        A    I'm sorry.  My voice isn't very good this morning.
19             I took just the point that was relevant to the
20   declaration, which was -- which I was addressing brevet
21   rank.
22        Q    I see.  But in this declaration, the Church of
23   Scientology, for example, on the last page, describes that
24   the Sea Org is not incorporated nor is it an unincorporated
25   association, and then goes on to talk about the fact that it


1   doesn't have a structure and things like that, correct?
2        A    It does say that.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  I offer Exhibit 209 into
4        evidence, your Honor.
5             THE COURT:  Any objection?
6             MR. DANDAR:  No.  Except that I object to the
7        form of the question because Mr. Weinberg is asking
8        him does it say that, he's saying correct that's
9        what it says, but the record should not reflect that
10        he's agreeing with what it says --
11             THE COURT:  That's true.  I mean, I'm sure
12        Mr. Weinberg understands that --
13             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
15        Q    All right.  Now, you can put that down, Mr. Young.
16   Secondly, I asked you yesterday with regard to -- I showed
17   you a couple of pages from a deposition, if you remember, a
18   deposition that was taken in Los Angeles in Bridge
19   Publications versus FACTNet.  Do you remember that?
20        A    If it was in the last hour of yesterday --
21        Q    Well, I think it was toward the beginning, but
22   remember you thought it was in Colorado and I showed you
23   that the transcript said --
24        A    Oh.
25        Q    -- it was Los Angeles?


1        A    Yes.  I remember that now.
2        Q    And November 5th, 1997?  And I also said isn't
3   this a deposition that Mr. Dandar represented you at?  And I
4   think your response was you didn't remember.
5             I want to show you the full transcript, if I can,
6   and have you --
7             MR. WEINBERG:  I've got the quotes, your Honor.
8             MR. DANDAR:  And Judge, I would like the full
9        transcript filed in this court, and I'd like to be
10        able to see if my May, '97 letter was produced at
11        that deposition as Ms. Yingling alluded to in her
12        deposition -- her testimony before this court.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I don't know if that's the
14        deposition that she was talking about, but -- but
15        all right -- in any event -- I don't think
16        Ms. Yingling said anything like that, but whatever.
18        Q    Let me hand you this.  And we'll -- we'll mark
19   this particular transcript.
20             THE COURT:  What was the name of the case?
21             MR. WEINBERG:  It's Bridge Publications, which
22        is a Church of Scientology -- is it an organization?
23             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Publication -- it's a religious
24        publishing company.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  It's a religious publishing


1        company.
2             Versus FACTNet.  And Mr. Dandar wants this
3        marked, so we'll mark this as an Exhibit 210.
4             THE COURT:  All right.
6        Q    And all I'm going to ask you, Mr. Young, is to
7   look at the first page, which indicates -- if you -- if you
8   go to -- to -- if you turn the first page and look at the
9   back and look at the bottom of page 676, do you see that?
10        A    I hope so.  Go ahead.
11        Q    Mr. Dandar says, "Ken Dandar, representing
12   Mr. Young."  Do you see that?
13        A    Yes, I do.
14        Q    And Mr. Rosen says, "Mr. Dandar, you're not
15   representing parties to this case; you're just
16   representing -- you're just appearing as counsel for the
17   witness."  "Mr. Dandar:  Yes."
18             Now, does that refresh your recollection
19   Mr. Dandar served as your counsel in November of 1997 in a
20   deposition in the FACTNet case?
21        A    I don't remember the particular deposition, but I
22   accept this record as being accurate.
23        Q    And my question to you is, this is just a month
24   after Mr. Minton purchased the house for you and Stacy to
25   live in and the cats, you said yesterday, correct?


1             MR. DANDAR:  Objection to the form.  That's not
2        the evidence from yesterday.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  What's the evidence?
4             THE COURT:  Well --
5             THE WITNESS:  I testified --
6             THE COURT:  I don't remember what he testified
7        to exactly, but whatever it was he said yesterday.
8             THE WITNESS:  I -- I've always objected to the
9        form of Mr. Dandar bought us a house.  I --
10             THE COURT:  Mr. Minton, you mean?
11             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  Mr. Minton, when I
12        explained yesterday that he and his wife were the
13        ones on the bill of sale and agreed to that.
15        Q    Oh.  But in any event, it's about a month after
16   Mr. and Mrs. Minton were on a bill of sale buying a house
17   for you and -- $250,000 house for you and your then-wife
18   Stacy to live in, is that right?
19        A    As a sanctuary.  As long as that's clear, yes.
20        Q    Okay.  Now, did you pay Mr. Dandar to appear in
21   your behalf in Los Angeles in November of 1997?
22        A    I don't recall if I did.  I may not have.  There
23   may have been one of those single daughter transactions but
24   possibly not.
25        Q    Well, did somebody like Mr. Minton pay Mr. Dandar


1   to be at your side in that deposition?
2        A    I don't know.
3        Q    Do you know who paid the expenses of Mr. Dandar to
4   go out to California?
5        A    No.
6        Q    You didn't, though, did you?
7        A    No.
8        Q    No, being yes, you did not.
9        A    I did not.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Now, let me have the reporter
11        (sic) mark one more document.
12             THE COURT:  The reporter?
13             MR. WEINBERG:  The clerk.
14             THE COURT:  All right.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  It's the 25th day.
16             THE COURT:  That's right.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  211.
18             THE COURT:  Who is your next witness,
19        Mr. Dandar?
20             MR. DANDAR:  Jesse Prince.
21             THE COURT:  And is he available?  Because I
22        suspect he's not going to be much longer.
23             MR. DANDAR:  I asked him last night to be
24        available as soon as I called him.
25             THE COURT:  Well, why don't you call him.


1             MR. WEINBERG:  This is literally the last
2        thing.
3             MR. DANDAR:  And if Jesse Prince is going to be
4        more than a day, I do have Brian Haney flying in
5        from Ohio, so he can testify tomorrow morning.  And
6        I'd like to put him on out of turn because he won't
7        be available when we come back on July 8th.
8             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, you can put him on
9        tomorrow.
10             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
11             THE COURT:  I don't know how long Mr. Prince
12        will be.
13             MR. DANDAR:  Can I go ahead and call Mr. Prince
14        then?
15             THE COURT:  Yes.  Let's just take a few minutes
16        for him to do that.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  That's fine.
18             THE COURT:  So we don't have to have an undue
19        delay.
20             Would somebody -- Mr. Fugate, perhaps, if you
21        could call Mr. McGowan and see when he's available
22        for us?  Because maybe while we're waiting for
23        Mr. Prince we could get that done.
24             MR. MOXON:  I just called him, your Honor.  He
25        said he's going to try to come over here around


1        10:15.
2             THE COURT:  Okay.  You want to call him and see
3        if he's available now?
4             MR. MOXON:  Sure.  I'll try.
5             THE COURT:  Ask him how long he's going to be,
6        if he has to dress and all that.
7                 (Mr. Dandar making phone call.)
8             MR. DANDAR:  30 minutes?  40.  Okay.
9             THE COURT:  Okay.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Shall I proceed?
11             THE COURT:  Yes.
13        Q    I've shown you an e-mail and ask you to identify
14   this as an e-mail --
15             THE COURT:  I'm sorry, before you go on, I
16        just -- did you -- you did mark this as an exhibit;
17        this was the transcript with Mr. Dandar?
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. Dandar asked that that be
19        marked --
20             THE COURT:  Right.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  -- so I did.  It's 210.
22             MR. DANDAR:  It's only volume 2, though.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
24             THE COURT:  The -- you wanted -- you wanted it
25        for one purpose; he wanted the whole thing for


1        another purpose.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  I wasn't going to put it in.  I
3        just wanted to show them the transcript --
4             THE COURT:  Oh.
5             MR. WEINBERG:  -- to refresh his recollection
6        that Mr. Dandar was his lawyer there.
7             THE COURT:  Okay. So you have not introduced
8        this.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  I didn't, but he wanted it, and
10        I don't object to it.
11             THE COURT:  Okay You want it in?
12             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
13             THE COURT:  All right.  Then it'll go in.
14        Since it's been marked as Defendant's 210, it'll go
15        in as Defendant's exhibit.  Madam Clerk.
16             THE CLERK:  Yes.
17             THE COURT:  Oh, I better keep that.  I won't
18        have read that, may not read it.  Go ahead.
20        Q    Okay.  I have shown you what's been marked as
21   Defendant's 211.  Can you identify this as an e-mail that
22   you received from Ken Dandar on April 2nd, 1998?
23             MR. DANDAR:  Objection.  Work product.  This is
24        a letter from me to Mr. Vaughn.
25             THE COURT:  Let me look at it.


1             MR. WEINBERG:  This was turned over to us by
2        Mr. Keane from the Lisa McPherson Trust -- what do
3        you call it -- hard drives.
4             MR. DANDAR:  Well, isn't that interesting?
5        This is a work product letter again.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, maybe you can explain why
7        it's on the Lisa McPherson Trust hard drive?
8             MR. DANDAR:  I can always -- when -- when did
9        it get put up there?
10             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't know.
11             MR. DANDAR:  And -- and if it's on the Lisa
12        McPherson hard drive, when did the Church of
13        Scientology obtain a copy of the hard drive when
14        they were only supposed to obtain copies of witness
15        statements?  This is definitely not a witness's
16        statement.
17             MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, this was turned over
18        yesterday.  Mr. McGowan went through some of the
19        things that were printed out by Mr. Keane and --
20             THE COURT:  Mr. McGowan turned this over?
21             MR. MOXON:  Yes.
22             THE COURT:  Well, now, Mr. McGowan really ought
23        not be turning over things off of the hard drive.
24        Mr. Keane ought to be doing this.
25             MR. MOXON:  Well, it was turned over by


1        Mr. Keane.  Mr. McGowan approved it and Mr. Keane
2        turned it over and said this was -- approved as of
3        yesterday afternoon.
4             MR. DANDAR:  This is not contained in any
5        order.
6             THE COURT:  Yes.  This is not material that
7        should have been turned over.
8             MR. DANDAR:  I object to it and I object to any
9        questions being asked about it.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, you know, once Mr. Young,
11        if I may, your Honor, was offered as an expert
12        witness, a trial-testifying expert witness,
13        Mr. Dandar was supposed to have turned over all of
14        the communications that he had with Mr. Young.  And
15        we went through that during Mr. Dandar's cross.
16             And this is one that obviously Mr. Dandar, like
17        the May, '97 letter, overlooked or didn't produce.
18        But it should have been produced because Mr. Young
19        has already been offered as a trial expert; he's
20        testified and we were entitled to the correspondence
21        between Mr. Young and Mr. Dandar as a result of
22        that, as we -- both sides have with all the experts
23        that have been offered as trial witnesses in this
24        case.
25             MR. DANDAR:  I've told the court that the May,


1        '97 letter that the Church of Scientology produced
2        at this hearing is nowhere to be found in my office.
3        Now, Ms. Brooks apparently turned it over as part of
4        her deal.  And here is something else that they say
5        came from the Lisa McPherson Trust hard drive, yet
6        Mr. Young, who this letter's addressed to, was never
7        part of the Lisa McPherson Trust.  So apparently it
8        was another attempt to -- to obtain my work product.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
11             MR. DANDAR:  And this is --
12             THE COURT:  What are you doing writing stuff on
13        the LMT hard drive?
14             MR. DANDAR:  I'm not.
15             THE COURT:  The LMT computer.
16             MR. DANDAR:  I'm not.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, it's dated April 25th, '98
18        is when it appeared on the Lisa notes in the
19        computer.
20             MR. DANDAR:  And April the 25th, '98 the Lisa
21        McPherson Trust wasn't even thought of, wasn't
22        even --
23             MR. WEINBERG:  What is Lisa --
24             MR. DANDAR:  -- in place until October of '99.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, what is Lisa notes?


1             MR. DANDAR:  Looks like -- it looks like it's
2        either Stacy's internal notes when she was
3        consulting with me or Mr. Vaughn Young's internal
4        notes that she obtained or someone obtained, and now
5        if it's on a hard drive of the Lisa McPherson Trust,
6        allegedly.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, it's not allegedly.
8        Mr. Keane turned it over.
9             THE COURT:  Get Mr. Keane down here.
10        Mr. Bailiff, go see my secretary -- well, I don't
11        want to call him out of his office.  That's not
12        fair.  I'll have Mr. Keane down here.
13             MR. DANDAR:  Mr. Young is indicating he might
14        be able to explain this.  I don't know.
15             THE COURT:  Okay.
16             THE WITNESS:  Not to explain it, but just to
17        say that I never turned this over to anyone.  And
18        just for the technology of this, in this long line
19        here that -- where it says "full path" and it starts
20        with "quantum," what's interesting at the end of it,
21        you'll see the letters JPG.  JPG means that this is
22        an image.  When you see images on the Internet,
23        that's a designation of one type of image, like a
24        photograph.  So this is not a message transmission.
25        What this is, is this has been copied and then made


1        into an image.
2             So this is not a copy of an e-mail on a hard
3        drive; this is a copy of a Xerox or a photograph of
4        a printout of this that has then been put on the
5        hard drive.
6             And I just want to clarify this 'cause it might
7        explain how it might have been acquired since I gave
8        it to no one.
9             It's a photograph.  As if you were to copy
10        this.  You can make it into a JPG file and then you
11        can put it onto a hard drive.  It's not text.  It's
12        an image.  And that may be complex, but I think it's
13        an interesting point to recognize how -- what form
14        this was on the hard drive.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  It's over my head.
16             THE COURT:  Mine too.  I'm still -- I'm still
17        trying to read this.  For some reason I'm not able
18        to get through it.  Just a minute.  Let me read it.
19             Well, to tell you the truth as I read this, I
20        can't -- this doesn't look like a full -- I mean, it
21        just looks like something taken from something.  It
22        doesn't even make sense.  It looks like something
23        that's been pulled out from something that must have
24        been bigger.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  What it appears to me is, is


1        that this is some interaction between Mr. Dandar and
2        Mr. Young about language in -- in a complaint, or
3        draft complaint, and that's all it is.
4             But I don't understand how Mr. Dandar can say
5        this is work product in light of the fact that, A,
6        he's testified about all the work that Mr. Young
7        supposedly did with regard to an amended complaint,
8        and B, he asked Mr. Young a lot of questions about
9        that yesterday.  And all this is, or appears to be,
10        some communication in April of 1998 where Mr. Young,
11        contrary to his trial testimony, was apparently
12        giving advice as to changes that could be made on --
13        on the complaint or language in a -- in a complaint.
14        That's all I was going to do.
15             MR. DANDAR:  Mr. Young testified that he didn't
16        write the complaints; he gave me information to put
17        in the complaints.
18             THE COURT:  Well, this -- this just doesn't
19        make sense to me.  I'm not sure what it is because
20        it doesn't make sense that it's a full transmittal.
21        It -- it -- just kind of in the middle of something.
22             MR. DANDAR:  It does look that way.
23             THE COURT:  So consequently I don't know what
24        it is.  Number two, I don't know that even if you
25        said communications between an attorney and their


1        expert -- yeah, you get communications between an
2        attorney and their expert, but if somebody is a
3        consultant, I'm not sure this would qualify or
4        whether it wouldn't.
5             I am concerned, however, that the information
6        is being provided to one side.  Certainly it wasn't
7        provided to both sides.  That is clearly something
8        that I would be very surprised if Mr. Keane would
9        do.  So consequently I'm going to have to get
10        Mr. Keane in here and see what's going on.
11             If there's anything else that you've gotten --
12        Mr. Moxon, what else did you get yesterday?
13             MR. MOXON:  We got a number of pages, about a
14        hundred pages of stuff that was provided to --
15        Mr. Keane provided to McGowan that had been printed
16        off from some of the materials that are produced by
17        LMT, and Mr. McGowan reviewed them to see if they
18        could -- there was any -- any reason not to produce
19        them, and he cleared them.  And I was provided a
20        copy --
21             THE COURT:  Who cleared them?  Mr. McGowan?
22             MR. MOXON:  Well, they're LMT's records.  Yeah.
23        Mr. McGowan's LMT's counsel.  Mr. McGowan went
24        through them in accordance with, you know --
25        Mr. Keane obviously -- Mr. McGowan had to approve


1        them; they're his materials.  They're produced by
2        Mr. McGowan, and a copy was made for me by
3        Mr. Keane.
4             MR. DANDAR:  This is ex parte production.
5             THE COURT:  Yeah.  I -- I find this --
6             MR. MOXON:  They're available, of course, to
7        Mr. Dandar.
8             THE COURT:  Well, that isn't the way that an
9        agent of the court does things.  So consequently
10        whatever you're doing with those hundred pages you
11        are to cease and you are to stop and you are to put
12        them aside until such time as I can see why it is
13        that one side is getting materials from supposedly
14        an operation that is tied, if the church's side is
15        to be believed, to the plaintiff.  And the plaintiff
16        isn't getting them.
17             That's -- I don't know what's going on.  It's
18        another one of those very unusual things.  I'll get
19        to the bottom of it.  Put it aside.  Don't read it.
20        Whoever you have copying them, tell them to stop.
21             MR. MOXON:  Understood.
22             MR. DANDAR:  Could we have them produced to the
23        court?
24             THE COURT:  Sure.
25             MR. MOXON:  Of course, yeah.


1             THE COURT:  Make me a copy of everything you've
2        got.
3             MR. MOXON:  Very good.
4             THE COURT:  And --
5             MR. DANDAR:  And then could I have a copy of
6        everything they have as well?
7             THE COURT:  Well, yes, you can.
8             In the meantime, I'm not sure what this is.  Do
9        you have an objection to his asking a question about
10        it without waiving it since he's here?
11             MR. DANDAR:  Since he's here, no, go ahead.
12        Without waiving it, that's fine.
13             THE COURT:  All right.  That way we get
14        whatever it is.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  I really had very few -- I
16        mean --
18        Q    Does -- do you remember that in April of 1998 you
19   were giving advice as to some other iteration of the
20   complaint in this case as to what it ought to look like and
21   read like?
22        A    No.  And I don't recall ever seeing this e-mail or
23   this supposed e-mail.
24        Q    All right.  When I read paragraph 92 and 103 --
25   oh, you don't remember any response to this that you might


1   have sent to Mr. Dandar, is that right?
2        A    I don't remember seeing this as --
3        Q    All right.
4        A    -- e-mail to me, let alone a response.
5        Q    Just for the record, the writer@eskimo.com would
6   be your e-mail address, right?
7        A    Yes.
8        Q    Okay.
9        A    It was my address.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Those are all my questions, your
11        Honor.
12             THE COURT:  All right.  Cross examine?
13             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
14             THE COURT:  Or I'm sorry.  Redirect.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Redirect.
16             THE COURT:  Redirect.
17                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19        Q    Does the exhibit of the Defense 202 jog your
20   memory at all as to the type of consulting and expert work
21   you were doing for me since -- in '97 and '98, that e-mail?
22        A    Well, this -- this would be representative --
23             THE COURT:  Are you talking about this e-mail?
24             MR. WEINBERG:  It's 211.
25             THE COURT:  It's 211.


1             MR. DANDAR:  211.  I'm sorry.
2        A    Without agreeing that you either sent it to me or
3   I responded or this is accurate, just taking this as a
4   hypothetical example, this would be representative of
5   something that you would put together, the type -- an
6   example of what you would put together, and I'd say, "Yeah,
7   that reads okay.  That's accurate."
9        Q    Okay.  And so you didn't actually draft full
10   paragraphs of the first amended complaint or any other
11   amended complaint.
12        A    No.  As I -- as I said, this would be an example
13   of what would happen.  You would write something or have me
14   check it for accuracy.
15        Q    If I e-mailed you something back in '97 or '98, at
16   writer@eskimo.com, who -- who had the code to access that
17   e-mail?
18        A    Only me.
19        Q    And where did you store it?  If you did store it.
20   Apparently something got stored.
21        A    Well, even temporarily, before I might erase --
22   you know, 'cause e-mails are easily erased and you just get
23   rid of them 'cause they clutter up -- it would be stored on
24   my hard drive and -- and sort of anticipating the question,
25   this was a different computer and hard drive than Stacy had.


1        Q    And did Stacy have access to your hard drive?
2        A    Well, she would have access.  She could go look at
3   it.  But I had never any instance that she ever did.  And in
4   '98 -- let me just think for a second here.  I was just
5   trying to remember, geographically, where I was in April of
6   '98.  I don't remember because I was traveling a lot.
7        Q    Okay.  Was your hard drive on a laptop or a
8   stationary computer?
9        A    It was a stationary computer.
10        Q    Did Stacy also store things in there?
11        A    No.  We had separate computers.
12        Q    Did you give anyone permission to go into your
13   hard drive and copy anything that I may have sent you?
14        A    No.
15        Q    Do you still have that hard drive?
16        A    No.
17        Q    What happened to it?
18        A    It was erased, wiped out, when I left Seattle, and
19   then she just did whatever she wanted with the computer.
20   She did then what she wanted with the computer.
21        Q    Who erased it?
22        A    I did.
23        Q    What software did you use to do that?
24        A    There's a software called PGP, which has -- Oliver
25   North discovered when you erase something from a hard drive


1   you don't really erase it.  You have to put something over
2   top of it, other text on top, so that it fills the empty
3   spaces.  And so that's how I did it.
4             THE COURT:  So if you erased your hard drive
5        and nobody had access to your computer, well, what
6        do we have here?  I mean either you didn't erase
7        your hard drive very well or something.  I mean, I
8        don't understand it.
9             THE WITNESS:  My --
10             THE COURT:  Because as I said, this is a very
11        unusual thing to me.  It's got number 92, and the
12        next thing you see is 103.  And it just doesn't seem
13        as if it in any way, shape or form is a complete
14        statement.
15             THE WITNESS:  My --
16             THE COURT:  But apparently it came off of
17        something that belonged to you.
18             THE WITNESS:  Not necessarily, ma'am.  It's
19        very easy to forge something like this.  I'm not
20        proposing it is.  But all I have is just text
21        written out that supposedly is e-mail from
22        Mr. Dandar that was on a hard drive.  I can't verify
23        that this ever came to me; I can't verify anything
24        about it.  And so at that point I would question
25        even its authenticity.


1             THE COURT:  Well, boy, if somebody were going
2        to forge something, I guess they would forge
3        something better than this because I don't even
4        understand it.
5             THE WITNESS:  I do --
6             THE COURT:  So one would hope if they'd go to
7        that elaborate of a scheme it would be some smoking
8        gun or something.
9             THE WITNESS:  I tend to agree, your Honor,
10        because otherwise it's pretty benign.
11             THE COURT:  Right.
13        Q    When did you erase your hard drive?
14             THE COURT:  Not that I know what a smoking gun
15        would be, but --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  I learned yesterday when reading
17        a Watergate story that it came from Watergate.
18             THE COURT:  Yes.  I saw that too.  I have a
19        feeling that that probably was an expression that
20        was used before Watergate.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  I do too.
22             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Gunsmoke.
23        A    Just give me just a second.  I'm trying to back up
24   here.
25             It might have been after this, a couple of months


1   after this, that I erased the hard drive.
3        Q    Couple months after April 2nd of 1998?
4        A    Yes.  I'm not certain about that -- about that
5   time period.  But it would have -- would -- might have been
6   afterwards.
7        Q    Were you -- when you erased it, were you and Stacy
8   still married?
9        A    Well, no.  We were -- we were divorced at that
10   time.  But we were going through the divorce to make it
11   final.  But I was still in Seattle.
12        Q    Okay.  Was she still in Seattle?
13        A    Sometimes.
14        Q    She had already taken up -- I don't know what
15   other word to use -- with Mr. Minton?
16        A    Well, I -- I think she might even have moved to
17   Florida at that point.  I don't remember.  I know that she
18   was traveling around a lot.  There was different conferences
19   and she would come in and out of Seattle.
20        Q    Okay.  All right.  We -- Mr. Weinberg showed you a
21   video clip of your '99, December, discovery deposition,
22   where you talked about -- or answered questions concerning
23   whether or not you had any input or -- let's see -- helping
24   to author the first amended complaint or any other amended
25   complaint.  Do you recall that?


1        A    Yes.
2        Q    Okay.  Can you tell the court what physical
3   condition you were in in December, '99 during your
4   deposition?
5        A    I had been diagnosed with terminal cancer one
6   month before and I was in a lot of pain.
7        Q    And how are you doing today?
8        A    It was a rough video to watch, to go back to that
9   time and -- and --
10             I'm sorry.  It's --
11        Q    Are you in remission today?
12        A    I'm sorry.
13        Q    Is it worse than it was then?
14        A    According to the tests, it -- the cancer's
15   doubling every three weeks.
16        Q    Okay.  Now, Mr. Young, have you been subjected, as
17   far as you understand the term "fair game," to fair game
18   since leaving the Church of Scientology?
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Beyond the scope.  I
20        didn't ask him about harassment; I didn't ask him
21        about that on my -- Mr. Dandar did on direct, I
22        didn't on cross.  This is beyond the scope.
23             THE COURT:  Sustained.
24             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, Mr. Weinberg asked
25        Mr. Young about fair game and cancellation of fair


1        game and produced Mr. Hubbard's alleged affidavit --
2             THE COURT:  All right.  You're right.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  But that's different -- I mean,
4        a policy is one thing, the -- his experience after
5        he left the church, is --
6             THE COURT:  I understand it, but if -- if --
7        the issue was whether or not fair game still exists
8        or whether it doesn't, then I suppose he can tell us
9        about his experience if he thinks it would be fair
10        game, whatever fair game is.
12        Q    After you turned down Mr. Rinder's office to
13   perjure yourself, were you harassed?
14        A    I believe I stated so yesterday, that -- yes.
15        Q    And how long did that harassment continue?
16        A    Over the next couple of years, it's sort of hard
17   to put a time frame to it, but it continued all the way
18   through Vashon Island where we were picketed and the island
19   was leafletted, and --
20             THE COURT:  I think he did testify about this
21        yesterday.
23        Q    Did the -- Mr. Weinberg asked you about Mr. and
24   Mrs. Minton buying a house for the cat sanctuary on Vashon
25   Island.  Why did he need to do that?


1        A    Well, I had put a note onto the Internet -- and I
2   don't remember the date exactly.  It was something like in
3   October of -- of '97, late '97 -- onto
4   alt.religion.scientology.  And it was just basically a long
5   statement by me that what was going on, how bad the
6   harassment was; that there was a number of -- of -- of what
7   I considered to be assaults on the cat sanctuary, attempts
8   to try to close us down, picketing, leafletting.
9             And it was just a statement.  It was -- it was
10   nothing else.  I just wanted it on the record.  And I -- I
11   think I even said in there, of course, there's so much you
12   can't prove.
13             And it was after that that Mr. Minton called
14   and -- and mainly spoke to Stacy about it.  And the point we
15   made that he was asking, he says, "Do you need help with the
16   sanctuary?"  And I said yes because it wasn't a case of us
17   needing personal help; we needed it to protect the cats.
18   And so that's how it came about.
19        Q    So --
20        A    Until that point I never had spoken with him; I
21   didn't know who he was.  You know, I didn't know who he was.
22        Q    So when you and Stacy and the cats moved to Vashon
23   Island did the harassment stop?
24        A    No.  It continued.  It -- it actually got worse.
25        Q    How?


1        A    Well, there was, you know, pickets; there was --
2   Vashon Island has a newspaper, a weekly newspaper, and they
3   did a large story on it because there were people in -- in
4   the parking lot of the shopping -- shopping center passing
5   out leaflets, and they had determined that the people who
6   were doing it were not from Vashon Island.  And they
7   identified a private detective -- I can't remember his name
8   right now.  Private investigator.  Just his name escapes me
9   right now -- who was, turns out, had worked for the Church
10   of Scientology.  That was one person that was -- that was
11   doing this.
12             And it just -- it just continued.
13        Q    You have any -- experience any damage to your cat
14   sanctuary on Vashon Island?
15        A    Not directly to the sanctuary itself, not physical
16   damage.
17        Q    Any damage to your dogs or your cats?
18             THE COURT:  Didn't Stacy talk about this quite
19        a bit?
20             MR. DANDAR:  Not this last question.
21             THE COURT:  All right.
22             MR. DANDAR:  It's my last question.
23        A    One day I had let my dog out for about 20 minutes
24   and went out to pick her up -- pick him up.  His name was
25   Mac.  And he wasn't around.  And I went -- he never leaves


1   the property.  And -- but an hour and a half later, about a
2   little under an hour and a half, we got a call from the vet.
3   And the vet on the island is about oh, five miles north of
4   us.  And the vet said, "We have your dog here and he's in
5   bad shape."
6             And I went and picked him up and he was -- his
7   face was bloody and his back had been beaten.  And -- and I
8   could tell it wasn't -- and he had been found by somebody
9   walking south towards the house, north of the vet.  And I
10   knew that in one hour's time he couldn't have gotten up
11   there.  Somebody had to have transported him.
12             And he -- he had -- they beat him really bad, and
13   they -- he was quite a broken dog for a number of months
14   from that.  And the only thing I knew was that somebody had
15   grabbed him and beat him.
16             And I took it to be a warning.  You know, it's --
17   it's just that -- it's this warning that you always get.
18   And that's what I've always understood fair game to be.
19   It's -- it's the shot across the bow.  It's you are
20   vulnerable.  And it's -- that's what fair game is.  And I
21   just understand it.
22             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  I have -- almost done,
23        Judge.  Have this marked as an exhibit, please.
24        Oops.  I didn't make enough copies.
25             THE COURT:  What are you doing?


1             MR. DANDAR:  I've got some exhibits I want to
2        show him.
4        Q    Mr. Young, let me hand to you what's been marked
5   as Plaintiff's Exhibit 104, 105 and 106.
6             MR. DANDAR:  I hand the court the court's copy.
7        104, 105 and 106.
9        Q    Mr. Weinberg asked you yesterday about whether or
10   not, when you left the Church of Scientology, you were mad
11   at David Miscavige or the church.  Can you identify as a
12   follow-up to that question the documents 104, 105 and 106?
13        A    Document 104 is a letter from David Miscavige to
14   me dated 11 July, 1998, with a subject line "Your request
15   for a B of R," which I'll explain.  Exhibit 105 is a letter
16   to me from -- signed by Greg, and at the top it says
17   "Inspector general."  That is the from line.  Greg is Greg
18   Wilhere, W-i-l-h-e-r-e, who is the inspector general, dated
19   29 August, 1988.
20        Q    What's the date of that letter, 105?
21        A    29 August of '88.
22             And Exhibit 106 is another letter from Greg
23   Wilhere as inspector general, to me, dated 24 August, 1988.
24        Q    And the one from Dave is dated what date?  104?
25        A    The one from David Miscavige is dated 11 July,


1   1988.
2        Q    Okay.  And he signs it "Dave," correct?
3        A    The from line says "COB RTC," and the signature
4   line there is an abbreviation there just above his
5   signature, which is how we often used to sign the
6   dispatches.  It says -- it's signed M-L-O-V-E, which is a
7   shortening for much love.  And it's signed, "Much love,
8   Dave."
9        Q    Now, what was this all about, these three letters?
10        A    At the time I was on the RPF.  Has that been
11   brought up here?
12             THE COURT:  Yes.
13             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I was on the RPF and
14        then --
15             THE COURT:  In different ways, I might suggest.
16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, ma'am.
18        Q    Because you had not supported Mr. Miscavige in his
19   takeover of the Church of Scientology?
20        A    Yes.  And the assignment -- the reason that had
21   been given that I was sent to the RPF was for other reasons,
22   and I had been protesting this heavily.  And in Scientology,
23   the -- it's a maxim that you can't make progress if
24   something is false.  So I was protesting my assignment as
25   false.


1             So finally, he did say this in this 11 July
2   statement, and it's at the bottom of the first page.  In
3   the -- actually the thick large paragraph there, where he
4   says that -- let me see.  Give me a second here.  Oh, it'll
5   have to be in combination with Greg Wilhere's letter.  But
6   he said that -- the bottom paragraph, "It is true that
7   Norman --" and he's referring to Norman Starkey, who was the
8   head of ASI at the time -- "and myself told you that our
9   reasons for letting this action take its own course and you
10   going into the RPF was due to your involvement with
11   Broeker."
12             In other words, this was putting to a -- saying
13   that my statements had been correct.  I'd gone to the RPF
14   because of my association with Broeker and not because I was
15   some screw-up.  So this was an admission that basically it
16   was a political purge.
17             In the letter which was the following month from
18   Greg Wilhere, the inspector general --
19             THE COURT:  I mean, I -- why is this relevant
20        to this?
21             MR. DANDAR:  Because Mr. Weinberg brought it up
22        in cross examination.
23             THE COURT:  Well --
24             MR. DANDAR:  Of alleged bias against David
25        Miscavige and Scientology.


1             THE COURT:  And so a letter from Greg has what
2        to do with whether he likes Mr. Miscavige or
3        Mr. Miscavige likes him or --
4             MR. DANDAR:  Well, actually the primary
5        evidence is 104, the letter from Mr. Miscavige.
6             THE COURT:  Okay.  And he's explained that.
7        So --
8             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
9             THE COURT:  If the others have something to do
10        with 104, then they can just go along with it, but
11        we don't really need an explanation of it.
12             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine.  All right.
14        Q    Now, Mr. Young, the Lisa McPherson death, you said
15   yesterday, was the death would have been less of a PR flap
16   than --
17             THE COURT:  What happened here?
18             MR. LIEBERMAN:  I just banged my knee on his
19        chair.  I'm sorry, your Honor.
20             THE COURT:  I wasn't sure if Mr. Shaw --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  I thought Mr. Shaw had hit him,
22        that's what I thought.
23             THE COURT:  That's what I thought too.
24             All right.  Excuse me.
25             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Nothing worse than being


1        kneecapped, your Honor.
2             THE COURT:  Go ahead.
4        Q    How is it that the death of Lisa McPherson dying
5   could be less than a PR flap than going back to Morton Plant
6   Hospital while she's alive?
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Beyond the scope.  I
8        didn't ask him about PR flaps.  I didn't.
9             You did.
10             THE COURT:  I did.  So I'll allow it.
11             THE WITNESS:  Am I allowed to respond?
12             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
13             THE COURT:  Yes.
14        A    Well, I still contend I was trying to touch on it
15   yesterday -- that in effect, it wasn't a PR flap when she
16   died because it was a good year --
17             THE COURT:  This is a repeat of testimony from
18        yesterday and I don't need to hear it again.
19             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  All right.
20             THE COURT:  Unless there's something new.
21             MR. DANDAR:  Well, I don't think he talked
22        about -- see, it follows up the questions you were
23        asking him.  He didn't talk about why it was not a
24        PR flap.
25             THE COURT:  Well, he did.  He told us that


1        yesterday.  That nothing happened for quite
2        sometime.
3             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
4             THE COURT:  That's exactly what he said.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
6             THE COURT:  It took a while.
7             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
8             THE COURT:  What are you looking at,
9        Mr. Dandar?
10             MR. DANDAR:  I'm looking at notes that I made
11        during his testimony yesterday when I was --
12             THE COURT:  On a little piece of paper that
13        looks like a tape from a --
14             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
15             THE COURT:  -- a --
16             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
17             No, actually, guess what?  If you just give me
18        a second --
19             THE COURT:  All right.
20             MR. DANDAR:  -- I think I'm done.
22        Q    Oh.  Mr. Weinberg asked you about this e-mail
23   concerning Mr. Rinder which is Defendant's Exhibit 204?  You
24   recall that?
25        A    Yes.


1        Q    Where did you get the information from that talked
2   about Mr. Rinder not being allowed to go -- to be with his
3   wife when his infant child died from crib death?
4        A    He had mentioned it to me, but it was actually
5   common knowledge within that echelon that it happened.
6   Because first of all, when he -- he lost his -- his child,
7   that was the first piece of knowledge.  And that's -- you
8   know, it's the sort of thing people just talk about.  And
9   then when he wasn't able to go down, that was one of those
10   things that people just know about.
11        Q    And in Exhibit Defense 203, the 21 declarations
12   totalling apparently 358 pages that Mr. Weinberg asked you
13   about --
14        A    Yes.
15        Q    -- in any of those declarations did you slant the
16   truth or try to sway it so it fit the attorney's theory of
17   the case?
18        A    No.  I just tried to tell it like it was.
19        Q    Did you ever hear Stacy say that in any of the
20   times that you and she were -- or she was writing a
21   declaration, that she wanted to fabricate a scenario or
22   slant it so it fit the -- what the attorney needed?
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Beyond the scope.  I
24        didn't ask him about Stacy.
25             THE COURT:  I'm going to allow it.


1        A    No.  I never heard that.
3        Q    Now, recently have you been talking to Stacy?
4             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to that, your Honor.
5        We really didn't get into that.  It's a whole new
6        area.
7             THE COURT:  True.  Sustained.
8             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  Just one second and I think
9        I'm about done.
10             Oh, yeah.  I'm sorry.  I've got one last
11        exhibit here.
12             I'd like to move the three letters into
13        evidence.  104, 105 and 106.
14             THE COURT:  Well, I'm going to let them in.  As
15        to -- especially the letter from Mr. -- identified
16        as coming from Mr. Miscavige.  I don't know exactly
17        what the other two letters have to do with, but I
18        suppose if it relates to the same thing, we'll just
19        let them in.  They're authenticated.  I don't know
20        what they have to do with this case.  This hearing,
21        I should say.
22             MR. DANDAR:  Only because Mr. Weinberg brought
23        it up, your Honor.
25        Q    Let me show you 107.


1        A    There was one --
2        Q    There's a point?
3             MR. DANDAR:  Could he explain something that he
4        wants to tell you about one of the letters from Greg
5        Wilhere?
6             THE WITNESS:  There was a line in one of the
7        letters, your Honor, which is, I believe, relevant.
8             THE COURT:  All right.  Which line is it?
9             THE WITNESS:  It's Exhibit 106, the letter
10        which the date at the top is 24 August, 1998.
11             THE COURT:  Yes.
12             THE WITNESS:  Second page.  What he's referring
13        to here is a new directive would be put out with
14        regard to my assignment to the RPF.  And I bring
15        your attention to the last sentence of the top
16        paragraph.  It says, "This issue will also bring to
17        light that you were held at high esteem and
18        trusted."  And it's just relevant to my position at
19        the time.
20             THE COURT:  All right.
22        Q    Now, Mr. Young --
23             THE COURT:  Who is this Mr. Greg -- who is
24        Mr. -- who is Greg?
25             THE WITNESS:  Greg Wilhere was the inspector


1        general at the time.  He replaced Vicki Aznaran.
2             THE COURT:  Inspector general of --of RTC?
3             THE WITNESS:  Of RTC.
5        Q    That's while Mr. Miscavige was COB -- chairman of
6   the board of RTC?
7        A    Yes.
8        Q    All right.  Now, just this morning Mr. Weinberg
9   asked you questions about Defendant's Exhibit 209 and
10   introduced into evidence the -- what's purported to be the
11   full IRS response to what the Sea Organization is from the
12   Church of Scientology.
13             And then in the -- page 3 of 1, the second
14   highlighted paragraph says -- tries to relate the Sea
15   Organization to other common religious orders, and says that
16   unlike the other religious orders of other churches --
17        A    Can you give me a moment to find it?
18        Q    Okay.
19        A    What page is it?
20        Q    3 of 1.
21        A    3-1?  Okay.  All right.
22        Q    "Other religious orders have property, assets and
23   considerable personnel whose full-time job has to do with
24   administration of the order.  The Sea Org has none of this."
25             Is that a true statement as far as you know, and


1   in your experience?
2        A    Well, I know for one thing that there is a --
3   there's financial assets, large financial assets, that was
4   created by Hubbard and continued on, as far as I know, that
5   were called the Sea Org reserves.  And this is money that is
6   made by the Sea Org when they send a project out to an
7   organization and the organization is billed for it.  And
8   Mr. Hubbard wrote about that, and that's how they make their
9   money.  And the last I knew there was millions and millions
10   of dollars in those assets.
11        Q    Well, look at the Plaintiff's Exhibit 107 from the
12   Modern Management Technology Defined.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I object because
14        Mr. Young left in 1989.  This was submitted in 1993.
15        And -- and what -- what Mr. Dandar's trying to get
16        him to do is to testify as to the state of the Sea
17        Org reserves in 1993 which he's not competent to do.
18             THE COURT:  That's true.
19             MR. DANDAR:  Well, not the amount.
20             THE COURT:  Well, what difference does it make?
21             MR. WEINBERG:  The existence --
22             MR. DANDAR:  Because this document that they
23        just had entered into evidence contains --
24             THE COURT:  When did they enter it into
25        evidence?


1             MR. DANDAR:  -- contains lies.
2             This is the document --
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, excuse me for a second.
4             MR. DANDAR:  -- that they --
5             MR. WEINBERG:  Are you testifying?
6             THE COURT:  Just a second.  I'm asking him,
7        what is he talking about.
8             MR. DANDAR:  Defendant's Exhibit 209, which
9        Mr. Weinberg said is the complete copy of the
10        questions -- the answers from the Church of
11        Scientology to answer question 3A from the IRS about
12        the role of the Sea Org.  And here it says on page 3
13        of 1 the Sea Org has no assets.  It has no
14        administrative function.  It doesn't have a
15        property.
16             And then Mr. Hubbard's own dictionary, which I
17        just introduced as -- part of the dictionary -- as
18        Plaintiff's Exhibit 107, has a definition of Sea Org
19        reserves, and it talks about how the Sea Org does
20        have property and assets.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  It's a 1976 dictionary.  This is
22        a 1992 submission to the IRS.
23             MR. DANDAR:  So I guess they can put on
24        rebuttal and show us that this dictionary's been
25        altered by someone.


1             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, what's that have to do
2        with the case?
3             THE COURT:  I have no idea what it has to do
4        with the case, but apparently you brought it up.  So
5        go on, Mr. Dandar, get it done.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  Just for the record, I did not
7        bring it up.  Mr. Young -- Mr. Dandar put in two
8        pages from a five or six page submission.
9             THE COURT:  But then you had him read from it.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  No, I didn't have him read from
11        it.
12             THE COURT:  Well, actually you did.  At least
13        that's my recollection.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  No, I didn't.  He -- he -- I
15        didn't ask him any questions about it other than
16        this is -- I had him look at it, "Is this the full
17        answer to the question that you took two pages out
18        of," and he said yes and that's it.  That's all I
19        did.
20             THE COURT:  What was it that he read from where
21        we had to go through this explanation from
22        Mr. Dandar that he wasn't admitting that it was true
23        but it was just that that's what it said.  What was
24        that?
25             MR. DANDAR:  Captain and brevet captain.


1             MR. WEINBERG:  That was from the page he put
2        in.
3             THE COURT:  Well, this was this morning.
4             Look, I don't care.
5             MR. DANDAR:  This is my last question.
6             THE COURT:  I'm going to let it in.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
8             THE COURT:  Thank you.  Go on ahead.
10        Q    So Mr. Young, in the Exhibit 107, the Hubbard
11   Dictionary of Administration and Management written by L.
12   Ron Hubbard, turn to page -- beginning at 464.  Does it not
13   start to define the Sea Org and then have many definitions
14   afterward concerning things like the Sea Org central bureau,
15   Sea Org org board, the Sea Org estates captain, things like
16   that?
17        A    There's a number of definitions that -- where Sea
18   Org is the preface phrase to the definition, yes.
19        Q    And turn to page 466.  The definition of Sea Org
20   reserves, talking about the amount of money collected for
21   the corporation over and above expenses.
22        A    Yes.
23        Q    Do you know whether or not, in 1989 when you left,
24   that Mr. Hubbard's dictionary, after he died in '86, was
25   changed?


1        A    I don't know of it being changed.
2        Q    Do you know if there -- if it was -- if just
3   hypothetically if it was changed, was there any written
4   policy or directives from Mr. Hubbard that would permit the
5   definition of Sea Org and Sea Org reserves to be changed
6   after his death?
7        A    No.
8             MR. DANDAR:  That's all I have.
9             And I move 107 into evidence.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Object for the reason I said
11        before.  It's a 1976 dictionary.
12             THE COURT:  Well --
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Even before -- I mean, there's
14        been -- Mr. Dandar listed --
15             THE COURT:  If it's been changed, you surely
16        have somebody you can call.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  It has been changed.
18             THE COURT:  Well, then call a witness.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  But --
20             THE COURT:  He says it hasn't, it wouldn't be
21        and it couldn't be.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  But I have a
23        different question to ask --
24             THE COURT:  All right.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  -- which I think will clear --


1                        CROSS EXAMINATION
3        Q    The Sea Org reserves, you know that when you look
4   at this definition, they're not talking about a bank account
5   of the Sea Org; they're talking about bank accounts of
6   various corporations and organizations in the Church of
7   Scientology, like the Church of Scientology California or
8   CSI or something like that, correct?  That's what this is
9   talking about.
10        A    Could you -- could you rephrase that?  I lost you
11   in that question.
12        Q    You just -- Mr. Dandar just had you look at this
13   definition of Sea Org reserves.  Do you see that?
14        A    Yes.
15        Q    And the definition says, "Often miscalled Flag
16   reserves or management reserves, which they are not.  Sea
17   Org reserves are --" and it says -- "the amount of money
18   collected for the corporation over and above expenses that
19   is sent by various units to the corporation's banks."
20             And when they're talking about the corporations,
21   they're not talking about the Sea Org; they're talking about
22   corporations like the church corporations, Church of
23   Scientology California, the church corporation in -- in New
24   York or Boston or -- or now if there was one, CSI or
25   something like that.  That's what they're talking about,


1   correct?
2        A    The corporation, yes.
3        Q    They're not talking about the Sea Org has a bank
4   account somewhere, are they?
5        A    That's not what it says.  They were just set --
6   you know -- I -- I don't need to explain that.
7        Q    All right.  Now, you -- you got emotional and told
8   this story about your dog, and the purpose was to leave the
9   impression at this hearing that the Church of Scientology
10   had something to do with your dog getting beaten up.  That's
11   the impression that you left, and you even said that's part
12   of fair game, right?
13        A    Yes, I said fair game, but I'm not going to
14   concede to the front end of your statement.
15        Q    You're not?
16        A    That I -- my purpose was to sway someone.  It was
17   an emotional event for me.
18        Q    But you don't -- as you sit here today, and back
19   then, you don't have and you didn't have back then a shred
20   of evidence that the Church of Scientology or anybody
21   connected with the Church of Scientology had anything to do
22   with your dog getting hurt that you found at the vet.  You
23   didn't have any evidence of that, did you?
24        A    No.
25        Q    It's sort of like when you wrote the affidavit and


1   you dropped the footnote about David Miscavige's mother?  Is
2   that what you're trying to do today?
3        A    Please, Mr. Weinberg, I really --
4        Q    Or mother-in-law?
5        A    If you want to equate my dog being beaten with my
6   testimony, I really can't respond to that.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't have any further
8        questions.
9             THE COURT:  Anything further?
10             MR. DANDAR:  No, your Honor.
11             THE COURT:  Thank you, sir, for coming.  You
12        may stand down and you may be excused.
13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you for your courtesy, your
14        Honor.
15             THE COURT:  You're very welcome.
16             All right.  Is Mr. Prince here?
17             MR. DANDAR:  I will check.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  We have Mr. McGowan.
19             THE COURT:  I know.  I want to see if
20        Mr. Prince was here first, and then I thought if he
21        wasn't, we could --
22             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.
23             MR. DANDAR:  No, he's not here.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  We're going to go ahead
25        and take a recess, and I'll have Mr. Weinberg and


1        Mr. McGowan and Mr. Dandar and we will go -- I don't
2        think we need a court reporter at this time -- to my
3        chambers.  You all take five minutes, then you come
4        to my chambers.  You'll give me 10 minutes.
5             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  And I may bring a cup of
6        coffee?
7             THE COURT:  You may bring a cup of coffee.
8        We're going to be on break for at least 20 minutes,
9        maybe 30.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Thank you.
11             THE COURT:  Maybe 40.  I don't know how long
12        it'll take us to get through this.
13             You all be lurking about say after 10:30,
14        10:35.
15             I'll tell you what.  Let's just try for 10:45.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  To go to your chambers?
17             THE COURT:  No, no, dear; to be back in court.
18        You be in my chambers in 10 minutes.
19               (A recess was taken at 10:11 a.m.)
20         (The proceedings were reconvened at 11:25 a.m.)
21             THE COURT:  Where are our good friends from the
22        defense side?
23             Okay.  Mr. Dandar, you indicated that you had
24        not seen this list.  According to Mr. Keane's
25        certificate of service, this was furnished by mail


1        to you on the 17th.  Was that yesterday?
2             MR. DANDAR:  Yesterday, yes.
3             MS. WEST:  That's why we don't have it.
4             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, presumably it will
5        come today.  What I suggest we do is that you get
6        it -- I mean, you can see mine if you want.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think I have that
8        either --
9             THE COURT:  Okay.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  -- to tell you the truth.
11             THE COURT:  So what we're going to have to do
12        is just wait till you all get this, see if you
13        object to this and what part you object to, and then
14        we'll just have to try and resolve it.
15             MR. DANDAR:  You talking about the search list?
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Do you have any of your notes on
17        that?
18             THE COURT:  Any what?
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Do you have any of your notes on
20        this?
21             THE COURT:  On the list?
22             MR. WEINBERG:  No.  On the -- whatever he
23        submitted to you or what's he's submitted to you --
24        or if he's sent it to everybody maybe somebody could
25        make a copy and then we could look at it at lunch


1        and maybe talk about it when we get back.
2             THE COURT:  Oh, you mean do I have --
3             No, this is the original.  So no I do not.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, maybe somebody can make a
5        copy of that, give one to us and one to Ken and
6        maybe at lunchtime we could look at it and talk
7        afterwards.
8             THE COURT:  Okay.  Maybe somebody can.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  I mean, if you give it to us, we
10        can make a copy of it.
11             THE COURT:  There's what I have here, is the
12        original.  It has a very poor page 2, but I can
13        pretty well make out who it is.  I think you all can
14        too.  Somebody want to take it, make a copy of that?
15             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  I'll do that.
16             THE COURT:  Don't make it on that machine of
17        yours.
18             MR. DANDAR:  At lunchtime.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.  At lunchtime you can do
20        that.
21             In any event, we'll have to address this after
22        lunch.  What we'll do is we'll go through -- I've
23        now gone through this list with counsel.  And as far
24        as those that I did not have -- hadn't made a
25        decision on, we went through -- I think we agreed on


1        everything.
2             Did you find out anything about Judge Penick's
3        courtroom?
4             MR. McGOWAN:  Yes, I did.  I just talked to
5        Judge Penick.  And in fact, he allowed the LMT to
6        come in and film or videotape the proceedings, along
7        with some French group.  So there were two cameras
8        in that courtroom.
9             THE COURT:  So they were in there legitimately.
10             MR. McGOWAN:  They were in there legitimately.
11             THE COURT:  Okay.  And in that case, you all
12        don't want them, correct?
13             MR. WEINBERG:  No.  We don't want them.
14             THE COURT:  Okay.  So I'm going to strike
15        through those question marks and put "no's" on all
16        of those.
17             And Mr. Dandar objects to some of these, but
18        before I just start with the ones I know he objects
19        to, I'm going to need you to take a look at the --
20             Oh, here's -- I need you to look and see if
21        there's anybody you object to on there that you
22        haven't seen, okay?
23             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
24             THE COURT:  And Counselor, I think you can go
25        ahead and be excused.


1             MR. McGOWAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
2             THE COURT:  Thank you for coming.
3                (Mr. McGowan left the courtroom.)
4             MR. WEINBERG:  You going to make us a copy too?
5             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.
6             Judge, I'm filing request to produce Vicki
7        Aznaran settlement documents, since her declarations
8        were entered subsequent to that settlement or as
9        part of that settlement.  I don't know if you want a
10        copy of this or not.
11             THE COURT:  I don't know.  What is this?  A
12        request to produce?
13             MR. DANDAR:  To the defendant, yes.
14             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, I'll just deal with it
15        when we see if they produce it.  Then I don't even
16        need to see it.  If they don't --
17             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  That's fine.
18             THE COURT:  -- why then you can give it to me
19        at that time.
20             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
21             THE COURT:  Here's one that I didn't go over
22        with you all.  December of '99, a cult workshop.
23        Anybody know what that is?
24             MR. DANDAR:  Well, it -- it's a meeting of
25        people who want to talk about cults.


1             But again, I would object to -- it doesn't have
2        anything to do with this case or this hearing.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
4             THE COURT:  It's hard to say, because there are
5        witnesses here.  I have no idea.  But this is one of
6        those ones where there are some witnesses that are
7        clear witnesses and there are some that aren't.  And
8        Mr. Dandar, this is one where you are listed as a
9        witness so we'll have to deal with it anyway.  I
10        mean, you're listed as a party who was there.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I would certainly think
12        that would be relevant.
13             MR. DANDAR:  Except I'm not a witness.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  But there's nothing privileged
15        about it.  And that's part of what we say was
16        happening in December of 1999.
17             THE COURT:  Remember what I'm saying here is
18        that you -- this -- as I understand, all these
19        discovery orders were produced pursuant to a trial,
20        not pursuant to this hearing.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  They were produced --
22             THE COURT:  So we're going to have Mr. Dandar
23        be able to look at this and then we're going to have
24        an argument on this --
25             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.


1             THE COURT:  -- as to whether or not anything
2        that Mr. Dandar is a participant in is something
3        that is to be released.
4             MR. DANDAR:  May I look at that during lunch
5        or --
6             THE COURT:  What, this?
7             No, you may not look at this.
8             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
9             THE COURT:  That's private.  Neither of you get
10        to see this.
11             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
12             THE COURT:  This was sent to me.  I'll seal it
13        back up just like I got it, and it'll be --
14             No, you may not.
15             I will go through those that have you listed in
16        the event I decide that somehow you qualify as a
17        witness, and tell you which ones that they are so
18        you can be heard on each and every one of them.  I
19        think there are about five of them.  And there's an
20        awful lot of tapes here.
21             Okay.  It's 11:30.  It's about lunchtime.  You
22        want to get started?
23             MR. DANDAR:  We could start or take an early
24        lunch.  I'll leave it up to the court.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  I sort of suggest we take an


1        early lunch and come back.
2             THE COURT:  All right.  If we do that, what I
3        suggest we do is that, Mr. Dandar, you make your
4        copy of that and give it to counsel, and you show me
5        and tell me what people you don't think are
6        witnesses.
7             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
8             THE COURT:  I'm going to have to try to get
9        Mr. Keane here to see how he got this list, because
10        his -- his order says that it --
11             Please.  That's an original.  Don't be messing
12        it up.  I mean, if you don't have a staple remover,
13        for heaven sake --
14             MR. LIROT:  Judge, I'm a master at that and it
15        will come out perfect.
16             I apologize.
17             THE COURT:  Okay.  We'll go ahead and be in
18        recess until -- might as well make it -- well, we'll
19        say quarter to 1.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
21             THE COURT:  Do you want to be heard?  Was this
22        211, which is this document that you had some
23        objection to 'cause you said it was work product,
24        was that ever introduced?
25             MR. WEINBERG:  We didn't introduce it.


1             THE COURT:  Okay.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  I didn't, because of the --
3             THE COURT:  Possible problem?
4             MR. WEINBERG:  -- circumstances.
5             THE COURT:  Okay.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  So -- you know, so once that's
7        cleared up, I probably will introduce it.
8             THE COURT:  Okay.  How about -- I've got here
9        what appears to be Plaintiff's 104, -5 and -6.
10        Those were introduced, weren't they?
11             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, they were.
13             THE COURT:  And then there's one --
14             I guess that's it.
15             MR. FUGATE:  103, I think, was that notice
16        of -- judicial notice on the affidavits that you
17        gave her earlier?  Is that what that is?
18             THE COURT:  Yeah.
19             MR. DANDAR:  There's some I haven't moved into
20        evidence yet, Judge, that Mr. Young identified.
21             THE COURT:  Well, look, we're done for the
22        morning, so I'm not doing any more record business.
23        We just took a lunch break.
24                (A recess was taken at 11:25 a.m.)


2                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
4   STATE OF FLORIDA         )
6             I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was
authorized to and did stenographically report the
7   proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and
complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative,
9   employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
10   counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
12   WITNESS my hand and official seal this 18th day of June,
13   2002.
15                             ______________________________

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