289 1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 5 6 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 7 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 8 9 Plaintiff, 10 vs. VOLUME 3 11 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 12 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 13 Defendants. 14 _______________________________________/ 15 16 17 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 18 CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young. 19 DATE: June 18, 2002, morning session. 20 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 21 St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 23 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, 24 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 25 290 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorneys for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MR. LEE FUGATE and 12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 15 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 17 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 20 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 21 Attorney for LMT. 22 23 24 25 291 1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 REDIRECT Mr. Dandar 317 17 CROSS Mr. Weinberg 343 2 4 Recess 354 24 Reporter's Certificate 355 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 292 1 (The proceedings were resumed at 9:03 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Good morning. The videotapes -- I 3 have gone through them. Most of them I've made a 4 decision on. Some of them I have not. To resolve 5 it during the first break or this afternoon's break, 6 I'm going to need to meet with lead counsel for the 7 church, for the defense -- I mean for the estate, 8 and the lawyer for LMT. So if he could be 9 available? We'll just go in chambers. There are a 10 few of them I just can't determine from my 11 knowledge. Or I may have some -- some where I'm not 12 sure. We'll see if we can get some agreement. 13 MR. WEINBERG: And you want to do that during 14 the lunch break? 15 THE COURT: No. I really want to do it during 16 a morning or an afternoon break. We'll just take 17 about a half-hour break and get it done. 18 MR. WEINBERG: We need to call Mr. McGowan. 19 THE COURT: Yes. I don't want to do it without 20 him since technically he is -- as attorney for LMT 21 or I guess -- Mr. Bunker? Is that his name? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Both, yes. 23 THE COURT: May have some input on this. So as 24 soon as that can be done. I can turn them over. 25 I'll have to do an order, but I think that can come 293 1 after the fact. 2 3 Now, Mr. Dandar, you had indicated you wouldn't 4 have time to go look at these, but I presume you 5 want a copy of them. 6 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to have a copy of the 7 summary. And I think -- 8 THE COURT: No. You can't have a copy of the 9 summary -- 10 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 11 THE COURT: -- because I'm not giving everybody 12 all of that. 13 MR. DANDAR: I -- 14 THE COURT: That's going to be sealed. 15 MR. DANDAR: I sent a letter to Mr. Keane, I 16 believe, asking for any and all videos of, and then 17 I've listed Jesse Prince, Teresa Summers, myself, my 18 clients. I'm not interested in anybody else. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Well, he's not going -- I 20 can tell you this, he's not going to turn them over 21 to you. 22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. So -- 23 THE COURT: Because he's going to turn them 24 over to me and he's going to do whatever I tell him. 25 MR. DANDAR: Whatever procedure you set up 294 1 I'll -- I'd like to be there and -- 2 THE COURT: What I'm going to do is order them 3 to be released. If you want a copy of them you'll 4 get a copy of them. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 6 THE COURT: Okay? 7 MR. DANDAR: You're going to order -- I missed 8 something. You're going to order to be released, 9 what? 10 THE COURT: Probably about 150 tapes. 11 MR. DANDAR: I don't want 150 tapes, no. 12 THE COURT: Well, then you'll have to I guess 13 figure out how you're going to do it, because I 14 don't know that I'm going to tell you all exactly 15 what I'm releasing. 16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 17 THE COURT: You know, I guess what you can do 18 is tell Mr. Keane what it is you want, and then if 19 they're part of whatever part of the tapes that I've 20 ordered him to release, he'll release those. 21 MR. DANDAR: That's how I'll do it. 22 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 23 Mr. Young, you want to resume the stand, 24 please? 25 Madam Clerk, I've had a chance to read these 295 1 and so these can be filed in my book. I didn't get 2 through all of them. The ones that I hadn't gotten 3 through I'll have to bring them back tomorrow. 4 Madam Clerk, how are you coming on books down 5 there? 6 THE CLERK: I'm going to need a couple -- at 7 least three more. 8 THE COURT: At least three more? I may be 9 running out of notebooks. I'm probably not, but I'm 10 running out of those that I can throw the stuff out 11 to give her the notebooks. 12 MR. WEINBERG: (Inaudible.) 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm handling to the clerk 15 the request for judicial notice that contains all of 16 the notice of filing additional documents in support 17 of the plaintiff's motion to add parties. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. DANDAR: What you found over there -- 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. DANDAR: It's right there. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. DANDAR: And I'd like to mark that as our 24 next exhibit. 25 THE CLERK: Number 103. 296 1 MR. DANDAR: And move it into evidence. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. We don't have any 4 objection. 5 THE COURT: That's plaintiff's, right? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 7 And then just from yesterday, Exhibit 203, 8 which was the list of Vaughn Young's affidavits or 9 declarations, and I just hadn't offered them. 10 MR. DANDAR: I have no objection. 11 THE COURT: Number 203? Is that this page 12 right here? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 15 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'd also like to let you 16 know on the record that Mr. Young advised me this 17 morning that yesterday late afternoon after 4 was 18 very difficult for him. He's in excruciating pain. 19 He took three Tylenols which helped. But this 20 morning he's nauseated and doesn't feel too well. 21 But he wants to get this finished. 22 THE COURT: All right. I'm hoping that -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have many questions, so 24 it's up to him. 25 THE COURT: All right. You're done? 297 1 MR. DANDAR: Oh, you're done? 2 MR. WEINBERG: No, I said I don't have many 3 questions. 4 THE COURT: Many questions, all right. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Can I proceed? 6 THE COURT: You may. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 8 THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Young. 9 THE WITNESS: Good morning, your Honor. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Good morning, Mr. Young. 11 THE COURT: What day is today? Does anybody -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: It's Tuesday. 13 THE COURT: By that I mean what number date? 14 Number eight? 15 MR. LIROT: No, no, no. You're talking about 16 hearing date? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MR. LIROT: 25. 19 THE CLERK: 18th. 20 MR. LIROT: But the 18th of June. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q A few cleanup matters, Mr. Young. Yesterday 24 Mr. Dandar showed you some pages that you said you had 25 copied from the public IRS file concerning the church's 298 1 submission to get the tax exemption? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you remember that? 4 What I want to hand up to you and have the -- and 5 you remember it was part of a section of the submission but 6 not the whole part of the section. 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. I want to hand you up the whole part of the 9 section and have you look at it and identify it so that we 10 can have the whole part and not just a couple pages. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Just mark this the next exhibit, 12 please. 13 THE COURT: What is this? I'm sorry. 14 MR. WEINBERG: This is the church's response in 15 the tax-exempt submission to the question about the 16 Sea Org to the IRS that Mr. Young put in a couple of 17 pages from that response yesterday, and this is the 18 whole response. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. WEINBERG: This is 209. The whole response 21 to that question. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. WEINBERG: That would be 209. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q If you could just look at Exhibit 209, tell us if 299 1 that appears to be the full response to question 3A, which 2 is the -- from which you drew the -- I think you'll 3 recognize them -- the page 3-5 which had the ranks of the 4 Sea Org people? 5 A I'm looking at it now. 6 Q Okay. 7 A All right. I've looked at it. And your question? 8 Q My question is, is -- this is what you saw in the 9 file at the IRS, correct? This entire response? 10 A Yes. It does appear to be that. 11 Q All right. And what you did in your declaration 12 is you just took a page or two from this answer, is that 13 right? 14 A Yes. It was just what was relevant to the 15 declaration I was making, which was just to the point of 16 brevet rank. 17 Q I couldn't hear that last part. 18 A I'm sorry. My voice isn't very good this morning. 19 I took just the point that was relevant to the 20 declaration, which was -- which I was addressing brevet 21 rank. 22 Q I see. But in this declaration, the Church of 23 Scientology, for example, on the last page, describes that 24 the Sea Org is not incorporated nor is it an unincorporated 25 association, and then goes on to talk about the fact that it 300 1 doesn't have a structure and things like that, correct? 2 A It does say that. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I offer Exhibit 209 into 4 evidence, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Any objection? 6 MR. DANDAR: No. Except that I object to the 7 form of the question because Mr. Weinberg is asking 8 him does it say that, he's saying correct that's 9 what it says, but the record should not reflect that 10 he's agreeing with what it says -- 11 THE COURT: That's true. I mean, I'm sure 12 Mr. Weinberg understands that -- 13 MR. DANDAR: All right. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q All right. Now, you can put that down, Mr. Young. 16 Secondly, I asked you yesterday with regard to -- I showed 17 you a couple of pages from a deposition, if you remember, a 18 deposition that was taken in Los Angeles in Bridge 19 Publications versus FACTNet. Do you remember that? 20 A If it was in the last hour of yesterday -- 21 Q Well, I think it was toward the beginning, but 22 remember you thought it was in Colorado and I showed you 23 that the transcript said -- 24 A Oh. 25 Q -- it was Los Angeles? 301 1 A Yes. I remember that now. 2 Q And November 5th, 1997? And I also said isn't 3 this a deposition that Mr. Dandar represented you at? And I 4 think your response was you didn't remember. 5 I want to show you the full transcript, if I can, 6 and have you -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: I've got the quotes, your Honor. 8 MR. DANDAR: And Judge, I would like the full 9 transcript filed in this court, and I'd like to be 10 able to see if my May, '97 letter was produced at 11 that deposition as Ms. Yingling alluded to in her 12 deposition -- her testimony before this court. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't know if that's the 14 deposition that she was talking about, but -- but 15 all right -- in any event -- I don't think 16 Ms. Yingling said anything like that, but whatever. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Let me hand you this. And we'll -- we'll mark 19 this particular transcript. 20 THE COURT: What was the name of the case? 21 MR. WEINBERG: It's Bridge Publications, which 22 is a Church of Scientology -- is it an organization? 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Publication -- it's a religious 24 publishing company. 25 MR. WEINBERG: It's a religious publishing 302 1 company. 2 Versus FACTNet. And Mr. Dandar wants this 3 marked, so we'll mark this as an Exhibit 210. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q And all I'm going to ask you, Mr. Young, is to 7 look at the first page, which indicates -- if you -- if you 8 go to -- to -- if you turn the first page and look at the 9 back and look at the bottom of page 676, do you see that? 10 A I hope so. Go ahead. 11 Q Mr. Dandar says, "Ken Dandar, representing 12 Mr. Young." Do you see that? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q And Mr. Rosen says, "Mr. Dandar, you're not 15 representing parties to this case; you're just 16 representing -- you're just appearing as counsel for the 17 witness." "Mr. Dandar: Yes." 18 Now, does that refresh your recollection 19 Mr. Dandar served as your counsel in November of 1997 in a 20 deposition in the FACTNet case? 21 A I don't remember the particular deposition, but I 22 accept this record as being accurate. 23 Q And my question to you is, this is just a month 24 after Mr. Minton purchased the house for you and Stacy to 25 live in and the cats, you said yesterday, correct? 303 1 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. That's not 2 the evidence from yesterday. 3 MR. WEINBERG: What's the evidence? 4 THE COURT: Well -- 5 THE WITNESS: I testified -- 6 THE COURT: I don't remember what he testified 7 to exactly, but whatever it was he said yesterday. 8 THE WITNESS: I -- I've always objected to the 9 form of Mr. Dandar bought us a house. I -- 10 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, you mean? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Mr. Minton, when I 12 explained yesterday that he and his wife were the 13 ones on the bill of sale and agreed to that. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Oh. But in any event, it's about a month after 16 Mr. and Mrs. Minton were on a bill of sale buying a house 17 for you and -- $250,000 house for you and your then-wife 18 Stacy to live in, is that right? 19 A As a sanctuary. As long as that's clear, yes. 20 Q Okay. Now, did you pay Mr. Dandar to appear in 21 your behalf in Los Angeles in November of 1997? 22 A I don't recall if I did. I may not have. There 23 may have been one of those single daughter transactions but 24 possibly not. 25 Q Well, did somebody like Mr. Minton pay Mr. Dandar 304 1 to be at your side in that deposition? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Do you know who paid the expenses of Mr. Dandar to 4 go out to California? 5 A No. 6 Q You didn't, though, did you? 7 A No. 8 Q No, being yes, you did not. 9 A I did not. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Now, let me have the reporter 11 (sic) mark one more document. 12 THE COURT: The reporter? 13 MR. WEINBERG: The clerk. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: It's the 25th day. 16 THE COURT: That's right. 17 MR. WEINBERG: 211. 18 THE COURT: Who is your next witness, 19 Mr. Dandar? 20 MR. DANDAR: Jesse Prince. 21 THE COURT: And is he available? Because I 22 suspect he's not going to be much longer. 23 MR. DANDAR: I asked him last night to be 24 available as soon as I called him. 25 THE COURT: Well, why don't you call him. 305 1 MR. WEINBERG: This is literally the last 2 thing. 3 MR. DANDAR: And if Jesse Prince is going to be 4 more than a day, I do have Brian Haney flying in 5 from Ohio, so he can testify tomorrow morning. And 6 I'd like to put him on out of turn because he won't 7 be available when we come back on July 8th. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, you can put him on 9 tomorrow. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. 11 THE COURT: I don't know how long Mr. Prince 12 will be. 13 MR. DANDAR: Can I go ahead and call Mr. Prince 14 then? 15 THE COURT: Yes. Let's just take a few minutes 16 for him to do that. 17 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. 18 THE COURT: So we don't have to have an undue 19 delay. 20 Would somebody -- Mr. Fugate, perhaps, if you 21 could call Mr. McGowan and see when he's available 22 for us? Because maybe while we're waiting for 23 Mr. Prince we could get that done. 24 MR. MOXON: I just called him, your Honor. He 25 said he's going to try to come over here around 306 1 10:15. 2 THE COURT: Okay. You want to call him and see 3 if he's available now? 4 MR. MOXON: Sure. I'll try. 5 THE COURT: Ask him how long he's going to be, 6 if he has to dress and all that. 7 (Mr. Dandar making phone call.) 8 MR. DANDAR: 30 minutes? 40. Okay. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Shall I proceed? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q I've shown you an e-mail and ask you to identify 14 this as an e-mail -- 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry, before you go on, I 16 just -- did you -- you did mark this as an exhibit; 17 this was the transcript with Mr. Dandar? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Dandar asked that that be 19 marked -- 20 THE COURT: Right. 21 MR. WEINBERG: -- so I did. It's 210. 22 MR. DANDAR: It's only volume 2, though. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 24 THE COURT: The -- you wanted -- you wanted it 25 for one purpose; he wanted the whole thing for 307 1 another purpose. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I wasn't going to put it in. I 3 just wanted to show them the transcript -- 4 THE COURT: Oh. 5 MR. WEINBERG: -- to refresh his recollection 6 that Mr. Dandar was his lawyer there. 7 THE COURT: Okay. So you have not introduced 8 this. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't, but he wanted it, and 10 I don't object to it. 11 THE COURT: Okay You want it in? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 13 THE COURT: All right. Then it'll go in. 14 Since it's been marked as Defendant's 210, it'll go 15 in as Defendant's exhibit. Madam Clerk. 16 THE CLERK: Yes. 17 THE COURT: Oh, I better keep that. I won't 18 have read that, may not read it. Go ahead. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Okay. I have shown you what's been marked as 21 Defendant's 211. Can you identify this as an e-mail that 22 you received from Ken Dandar on April 2nd, 1998? 23 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Work product. This is 24 a letter from me to Mr. Vaughn. 25 THE COURT: Let me look at it. 308 1 MR. WEINBERG: This was turned over to us by 2 Mr. Keane from the Lisa McPherson Trust -- what do 3 you call it -- hard drives. 4 MR. DANDAR: Well, isn't that interesting? 5 This is a work product letter again. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, maybe you can explain why 7 it's on the Lisa McPherson Trust hard drive? 8 MR. DANDAR: I can always -- when -- when did 9 it get put up there? 10 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know. 11 MR. DANDAR: And -- and if it's on the Lisa 12 McPherson hard drive, when did the Church of 13 Scientology obtain a copy of the hard drive when 14 they were only supposed to obtain copies of witness 15 statements? This is definitely not a witness's 16 statement. 17 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, this was turned over 18 yesterday. Mr. McGowan went through some of the 19 things that were printed out by Mr. Keane and -- 20 THE COURT: Mr. McGowan turned this over? 21 MR. MOXON: Yes. 22 THE COURT: Well, now, Mr. McGowan really ought 23 not be turning over things off of the hard drive. 24 Mr. Keane ought to be doing this. 25 MR. MOXON: Well, it was turned over by 309 1 Mr. Keane. Mr. McGowan approved it and Mr. Keane 2 turned it over and said this was -- approved as of 3 yesterday afternoon. 4 MR. DANDAR: This is not contained in any 5 order. 6 THE COURT: Yes. This is not material that 7 should have been turned over. 8 MR. DANDAR: I object to it and I object to any 9 questions being asked about it. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, once Mr. Young, 11 if I may, your Honor, was offered as an expert 12 witness, a trial-testifying expert witness, 13 Mr. Dandar was supposed to have turned over all of 14 the communications that he had with Mr. Young. And 15 we went through that during Mr. Dandar's cross. 16 And this is one that obviously Mr. Dandar, like 17 the May, '97 letter, overlooked or didn't produce. 18 But it should have been produced because Mr. Young 19 has already been offered as a trial expert; he's 20 testified and we were entitled to the correspondence 21 between Mr. Young and Mr. Dandar as a result of 22 that, as we -- both sides have with all the experts 23 that have been offered as trial witnesses in this 24 case. 25 MR. DANDAR: I've told the court that the May, 310 1 '97 letter that the Church of Scientology produced 2 at this hearing is nowhere to be found in my office. 3 Now, Ms. Brooks apparently turned it over as part of 4 her deal. And here is something else that they say 5 came from the Lisa McPherson Trust hard drive, yet 6 Mr. Young, who this letter's addressed to, was never 7 part of the Lisa McPherson Trust. So apparently it 8 was another attempt to -- to obtain my work product. 9 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 11 MR. DANDAR: And this is -- 12 THE COURT: What are you doing writing stuff on 13 the LMT hard drive? 14 MR. DANDAR: I'm not. 15 THE COURT: The LMT computer. 16 MR. DANDAR: I'm not. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's dated April 25th, '98 18 is when it appeared on the Lisa notes in the 19 computer. 20 MR. DANDAR: And April the 25th, '98 the Lisa 21 McPherson Trust wasn't even thought of, wasn't 22 even -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: What is Lisa -- 24 MR. DANDAR: -- in place until October of '99. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what is Lisa notes? 311 1 MR. DANDAR: Looks like -- it looks like it's 2 either Stacy's internal notes when she was 3 consulting with me or Mr. Vaughn Young's internal 4 notes that she obtained or someone obtained, and now 5 if it's on a hard drive of the Lisa McPherson Trust, 6 allegedly. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's not allegedly. 8 Mr. Keane turned it over. 9 THE COURT: Get Mr. Keane down here. 10 Mr. Bailiff, go see my secretary -- well, I don't 11 want to call him out of his office. That's not 12 fair. I'll have Mr. Keane down here. 13 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Young is indicating he might 14 be able to explain this. I don't know. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: Not to explain it, but just to 17 say that I never turned this over to anyone. And 18 just for the technology of this, in this long line 19 here that -- where it says "full path" and it starts 20 with "quantum," what's interesting at the end of it, 21 you'll see the letters JPG. JPG means that this is 22 an image. When you see images on the Internet, 23 that's a designation of one type of image, like a 24 photograph. So this is not a message transmission. 25 What this is, is this has been copied and then made 312 1 into an image. 2 So this is not a copy of an e-mail on a hard 3 drive; this is a copy of a Xerox or a photograph of 4 a printout of this that has then been put on the 5 hard drive. 6 And I just want to clarify this 'cause it might 7 explain how it might have been acquired since I gave 8 it to no one. 9 It's a photograph. As if you were to copy 10 this. You can make it into a JPG file and then you 11 can put it onto a hard drive. It's not text. It's 12 an image. And that may be complex, but I think it's 13 an interesting point to recognize how -- what form 14 this was on the hard drive. 15 MR. WEINBERG: All right. It's over my head. 16 THE COURT: Mine too. I'm still -- I'm still 17 trying to read this. For some reason I'm not able 18 to get through it. Just a minute. Let me read it. 19 Well, to tell you the truth as I read this, I 20 can't -- this doesn't look like a full -- I mean, it 21 just looks like something taken from something. It 22 doesn't even make sense. It looks like something 23 that's been pulled out from something that must have 24 been bigger. 25 MR. WEINBERG: What it appears to me is, is 313 1 that this is some interaction between Mr. Dandar and 2 Mr. Young about language in -- in a complaint, or 3 draft complaint, and that's all it is. 4 But I don't understand how Mr. Dandar can say 5 this is work product in light of the fact that, A, 6 he's testified about all the work that Mr. Young 7 supposedly did with regard to an amended complaint, 8 and B, he asked Mr. Young a lot of questions about 9 that yesterday. And all this is, or appears to be, 10 some communication in April of 1998 where Mr. Young, 11 contrary to his trial testimony, was apparently 12 giving advice as to changes that could be made on -- 13 on the complaint or language in a -- in a complaint. 14 That's all I was going to do. 15 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Young testified that he didn't 16 write the complaints; he gave me information to put 17 in the complaints. 18 THE COURT: Well, this -- this just doesn't 19 make sense to me. I'm not sure what it is because 20 it doesn't make sense that it's a full transmittal. 21 It -- it -- just kind of in the middle of something. 22 MR. DANDAR: It does look that way. 23 THE COURT: So consequently I don't know what 24 it is. Number two, I don't know that even if you 25 said communications between an attorney and their 314 1 expert -- yeah, you get communications between an 2 attorney and their expert, but if somebody is a 3 consultant, I'm not sure this would qualify or 4 whether it wouldn't. 5 I am concerned, however, that the information 6 is being provided to one side. Certainly it wasn't 7 provided to both sides. That is clearly something 8 that I would be very surprised if Mr. Keane would 9 do. So consequently I'm going to have to get 10 Mr. Keane in here and see what's going on. 11 If there's anything else that you've gotten -- 12 Mr. Moxon, what else did you get yesterday? 13 MR. MOXON: We got a number of pages, about a 14 hundred pages of stuff that was provided to -- 15 Mr. Keane provided to McGowan that had been printed 16 off from some of the materials that are produced by 17 LMT, and Mr. McGowan reviewed them to see if they 18 could -- there was any -- any reason not to produce 19 them, and he cleared them. And I was provided a 20 copy -- 21 THE COURT: Who cleared them? Mr. McGowan? 22 MR. MOXON: Well, they're LMT's records. Yeah. 23 Mr. McGowan's LMT's counsel. Mr. McGowan went 24 through them in accordance with, you know -- 25 Mr. Keane obviously -- Mr. McGowan had to approve 315 1 them; they're his materials. They're produced by 2 Mr. McGowan, and a copy was made for me by 3 Mr. Keane. 4 MR. DANDAR: This is ex parte production. 5 THE COURT: Yeah. I -- I find this -- 6 MR. MOXON: They're available, of course, to 7 Mr. Dandar. 8 THE COURT: Well, that isn't the way that an 9 agent of the court does things. So consequently 10 whatever you're doing with those hundred pages you 11 are to cease and you are to stop and you are to put 12 them aside until such time as I can see why it is 13 that one side is getting materials from supposedly 14 an operation that is tied, if the church's side is 15 to be believed, to the plaintiff. And the plaintiff 16 isn't getting them. 17 That's -- I don't know what's going on. It's 18 another one of those very unusual things. I'll get 19 to the bottom of it. Put it aside. Don't read it. 20 Whoever you have copying them, tell them to stop. 21 MR. MOXON: Understood. 22 MR. DANDAR: Could we have them produced to the 23 court? 24 THE COURT: Sure. 25 MR. MOXON: Of course, yeah. 316 1 THE COURT: Make me a copy of everything you've 2 got. 3 MR. MOXON: Very good. 4 THE COURT: And -- 5 MR. DANDAR: And then could I have a copy of 6 everything they have as well? 7 THE COURT: Well, yes, you can. 8 In the meantime, I'm not sure what this is. Do 9 you have an objection to his asking a question about 10 it without waiving it since he's here? 11 MR. DANDAR: Since he's here, no, go ahead. 12 Without waiving it, that's fine. 13 THE COURT: All right. That way we get 14 whatever it is. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I really had very few -- I 16 mean -- 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Does -- do you remember that in April of 1998 you 19 were giving advice as to some other iteration of the 20 complaint in this case as to what it ought to look like and 21 read like? 22 A No. And I don't recall ever seeing this e-mail or 23 this supposed e-mail. 24 Q All right. When I read paragraph 92 and 103 -- 25 oh, you don't remember any response to this that you might 317 1 have sent to Mr. Dandar, is that right? 2 A I don't remember seeing this as -- 3 Q All right. 4 A -- e-mail to me, let alone a response. 5 Q Just for the record, the writer@eskimo.com would 6 be your e-mail address, right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. 9 A It was my address. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: All right. Cross examine? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Or I'm sorry. Redirect. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Redirect. 16 THE COURT: Redirect. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Does the exhibit of the Defense 202 jog your 20 memory at all as to the type of consulting and expert work 21 you were doing for me since -- in '97 and '98, that e-mail? 22 A Well, this -- this would be representative -- 23 THE COURT: Are you talking about this e-mail? 24 MR. WEINBERG: It's 211. 25 THE COURT: It's 211. 318 1 MR. DANDAR: 211. I'm sorry. 2 A Without agreeing that you either sent it to me or 3 I responded or this is accurate, just taking this as a 4 hypothetical example, this would be representative of 5 something that you would put together, the type -- an 6 example of what you would put together, and I'd say, "Yeah, 7 that reads okay. That's accurate." 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Okay. And so you didn't actually draft full 10 paragraphs of the first amended complaint or any other 11 amended complaint. 12 A No. As I -- as I said, this would be an example 13 of what would happen. You would write something or have me 14 check it for accuracy. 15 Q If I e-mailed you something back in '97 or '98, at 16 writer@eskimo.com, who -- who had the code to access that 17 e-mail? 18 A Only me. 19 Q And where did you store it? If you did store it. 20 Apparently something got stored. 21 A Well, even temporarily, before I might erase -- 22 you know, 'cause e-mails are easily erased and you just get 23 rid of them 'cause they clutter up -- it would be stored on 24 my hard drive and -- and sort of anticipating the question, 25 this was a different computer and hard drive than Stacy had. 319 1 Q And did Stacy have access to your hard drive? 2 A Well, she would have access. She could go look at 3 it. But I had never any instance that she ever did. And in 4 '98 -- let me just think for a second here. I was just 5 trying to remember, geographically, where I was in April of 6 '98. I don't remember because I was traveling a lot. 7 Q Okay. Was your hard drive on a laptop or a 8 stationary computer? 9 A It was a stationary computer. 10 Q Did Stacy also store things in there? 11 A No. We had separate computers. 12 Q Did you give anyone permission to go into your 13 hard drive and copy anything that I may have sent you? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you still have that hard drive? 16 A No. 17 Q What happened to it? 18 A It was erased, wiped out, when I left Seattle, and 19 then she just did whatever she wanted with the computer. 20 She did then what she wanted with the computer. 21 Q Who erased it? 22 A I did. 23 Q What software did you use to do that? 24 A There's a software called PGP, which has -- Oliver 25 North discovered when you erase something from a hard drive 320 1 you don't really erase it. You have to put something over 2 top of it, other text on top, so that it fills the empty 3 spaces. And so that's how I did it. 4 THE COURT: So if you erased your hard drive 5 and nobody had access to your computer, well, what 6 do we have here? I mean either you didn't erase 7 your hard drive very well or something. I mean, I 8 don't understand it. 9 THE WITNESS: My -- 10 THE COURT: Because as I said, this is a very 11 unusual thing to me. It's got number 92, and the 12 next thing you see is 103. And it just doesn't seem 13 as if it in any way, shape or form is a complete 14 statement. 15 THE WITNESS: My -- 16 THE COURT: But apparently it came off of 17 something that belonged to you. 18 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily, ma'am. It's 19 very easy to forge something like this. I'm not 20 proposing it is. But all I have is just text 21 written out that supposedly is e-mail from 22 Mr. Dandar that was on a hard drive. I can't verify 23 that this ever came to me; I can't verify anything 24 about it. And so at that point I would question 25 even its authenticity. 321 1 THE COURT: Well, boy, if somebody were going 2 to forge something, I guess they would forge 3 something better than this because I don't even 4 understand it. 5 THE WITNESS: I do -- 6 THE COURT: So one would hope if they'd go to 7 that elaborate of a scheme it would be some smoking 8 gun or something. 9 THE WITNESS: I tend to agree, your Honor, 10 because otherwise it's pretty benign. 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q When did you erase your hard drive? 14 THE COURT: Not that I know what a smoking gun 15 would be, but -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: I learned yesterday when reading 17 a Watergate story that it came from Watergate. 18 THE COURT: Yes. I saw that too. I have a 19 feeling that that probably was an expression that 20 was used before Watergate. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I do too. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Gunsmoke. 23 A Just give me just a second. I'm trying to back up 24 here. 25 It might have been after this, a couple of months 322 1 after this, that I erased the hard drive. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Couple months after April 2nd of 1998? 4 A Yes. I'm not certain about that -- about that 5 time period. But it would have -- would -- might have been 6 afterwards. 7 Q Were you -- when you erased it, were you and Stacy 8 still married? 9 A Well, no. We were -- we were divorced at that 10 time. But we were going through the divorce to make it 11 final. But I was still in Seattle. 12 Q Okay. Was she still in Seattle? 13 A Sometimes. 14 Q She had already taken up -- I don't know what 15 other word to use -- with Mr. Minton? 16 A Well, I -- I think she might even have moved to 17 Florida at that point. I don't remember. I know that she 18 was traveling around a lot. There was different conferences 19 and she would come in and out of Seattle. 20 Q Okay. All right. We -- Mr. Weinberg showed you a 21 video clip of your '99, December, discovery deposition, 22 where you talked about -- or answered questions concerning 23 whether or not you had any input or -- let's see -- helping 24 to author the first amended complaint or any other amended 25 complaint. Do you recall that? 323 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. Can you tell the court what physical 3 condition you were in in December, '99 during your 4 deposition? 5 A I had been diagnosed with terminal cancer one 6 month before and I was in a lot of pain. 7 Q And how are you doing today? 8 A It was a rough video to watch, to go back to that 9 time and -- and -- 10 I'm sorry. It's -- 11 Q Are you in remission today? 12 A I'm sorry. 13 Q Is it worse than it was then? 14 A According to the tests, it -- the cancer's 15 doubling every three weeks. 16 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Young, have you been subjected, as 17 far as you understand the term "fair game," to fair game 18 since leaving the Church of Scientology? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope. I 20 didn't ask him about harassment; I didn't ask him 21 about that on my -- Mr. Dandar did on direct, I 22 didn't on cross. This is beyond the scope. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, Mr. Weinberg asked 25 Mr. Young about fair game and cancellation of fair 324 1 game and produced Mr. Hubbard's alleged affidavit -- 2 THE COURT: All right. You're right. 3 MR. WEINBERG: But that's different -- I mean, 4 a policy is one thing, the -- his experience after 5 he left the church, is -- 6 THE COURT: I understand it, but if -- if -- 7 the issue was whether or not fair game still exists 8 or whether it doesn't, then I suppose he can tell us 9 about his experience if he thinks it would be fair 10 game, whatever fair game is. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q After you turned down Mr. Rinder's office to 13 perjure yourself, were you harassed? 14 A I believe I stated so yesterday, that -- yes. 15 Q And how long did that harassment continue? 16 A Over the next couple of years, it's sort of hard 17 to put a time frame to it, but it continued all the way 18 through Vashon Island where we were picketed and the island 19 was leafletted, and -- 20 THE COURT: I think he did testify about this 21 yesterday. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Did the -- Mr. Weinberg asked you about Mr. and 24 Mrs. Minton buying a house for the cat sanctuary on Vashon 25 Island. Why did he need to do that? 325 1 A Well, I had put a note onto the Internet -- and I 2 don't remember the date exactly. It was something like in 3 October of -- of '97, late '97 -- onto 4 alt.religion.scientology. And it was just basically a long 5 statement by me that what was going on, how bad the 6 harassment was; that there was a number of -- of -- of what 7 I considered to be assaults on the cat sanctuary, attempts 8 to try to close us down, picketing, leafletting. 9 And it was just a statement. It was -- it was 10 nothing else. I just wanted it on the record. And I -- I 11 think I even said in there, of course, there's so much you 12 can't prove. 13 And it was after that that Mr. Minton called 14 and -- and mainly spoke to Stacy about it. And the point we 15 made that he was asking, he says, "Do you need help with the 16 sanctuary?" And I said yes because it wasn't a case of us 17 needing personal help; we needed it to protect the cats. 18 And so that's how it came about. 19 Q So -- 20 A Until that point I never had spoken with him; I 21 didn't know who he was. You know, I didn't know who he was. 22 Q So when you and Stacy and the cats moved to Vashon 23 Island did the harassment stop? 24 A No. It continued. It -- it actually got worse. 25 Q How? 326 1 A Well, there was, you know, pickets; there was -- 2 Vashon Island has a newspaper, a weekly newspaper, and they 3 did a large story on it because there were people in -- in 4 the parking lot of the shopping -- shopping center passing 5 out leaflets, and they had determined that the people who 6 were doing it were not from Vashon Island. And they 7 identified a private detective -- I can't remember his name 8 right now. Private investigator. Just his name escapes me 9 right now -- who was, turns out, had worked for the Church 10 of Scientology. That was one person that was -- that was 11 doing this. 12 And it just -- it just continued. 13 Q You have any -- experience any damage to your cat 14 sanctuary on Vashon Island? 15 A Not directly to the sanctuary itself, not physical 16 damage. 17 Q Any damage to your dogs or your cats? 18 THE COURT: Didn't Stacy talk about this quite 19 a bit? 20 MR. DANDAR: Not this last question. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. DANDAR: It's my last question. 23 A One day I had let my dog out for about 20 minutes 24 and went out to pick her up -- pick him up. His name was 25 Mac. And he wasn't around. And I went -- he never leaves 327 1 the property. And -- but an hour and a half later, about a 2 little under an hour and a half, we got a call from the vet. 3 And the vet on the island is about oh, five miles north of 4 us. And the vet said, "We have your dog here and he's in 5 bad shape." 6 And I went and picked him up and he was -- his 7 face was bloody and his back had been beaten. And -- and I 8 could tell it wasn't -- and he had been found by somebody 9 walking south towards the house, north of the vet. And I 10 knew that in one hour's time he couldn't have gotten up 11 there. Somebody had to have transported him. 12 And he -- he had -- they beat him really bad, and 13 they -- he was quite a broken dog for a number of months 14 from that. And the only thing I knew was that somebody had 15 grabbed him and beat him. 16 And I took it to be a warning. You know, it's -- 17 it's just that -- it's this warning that you always get. 18 And that's what I've always understood fair game to be. 19 It's -- it's the shot across the bow. It's you are 20 vulnerable. And it's -- that's what fair game is. And I 21 just understand it. 22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I have -- almost done, 23 Judge. Have this marked as an exhibit, please. 24 Oops. I didn't make enough copies. 25 THE COURT: What are you doing? 328 1 MR. DANDAR: I've got some exhibits I want to 2 show him. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Mr. Young, let me hand to you what's been marked 5 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 104, 105 and 106. 6 MR. DANDAR: I hand the court the court's copy. 7 104, 105 and 106. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Mr. Weinberg asked you yesterday about whether or 10 not, when you left the Church of Scientology, you were mad 11 at David Miscavige or the church. Can you identify as a 12 follow-up to that question the documents 104, 105 and 106? 13 A Document 104 is a letter from David Miscavige to 14 me dated 11 July, 1998, with a subject line "Your request 15 for a B of R," which I'll explain. Exhibit 105 is a letter 16 to me from -- signed by Greg, and at the top it says 17 "Inspector general." That is the from line. Greg is Greg 18 Wilhere, W-i-l-h-e-r-e, who is the inspector general, dated 19 29 August, 1988. 20 Q What's the date of that letter, 105? 21 A 29 August of '88. 22 And Exhibit 106 is another letter from Greg 23 Wilhere as inspector general, to me, dated 24 August, 1988. 24 Q And the one from Dave is dated what date? 104? 25 A The one from David Miscavige is dated 11 July, 329 1 1988. 2 Q Okay. And he signs it "Dave," correct? 3 A The from line says "COB RTC," and the signature 4 line there is an abbreviation there just above his 5 signature, which is how we often used to sign the 6 dispatches. It says -- it's signed M-L-O-V-E, which is a 7 shortening for much love. And it's signed, "Much love, 8 Dave." 9 Q Now, what was this all about, these three letters? 10 A At the time I was on the RPF. Has that been 11 brought up here? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. I was on the RPF and 14 then -- 15 THE COURT: In different ways, I might suggest. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, ma'am. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Because you had not supported Mr. Miscavige in his 19 takeover of the Church of Scientology? 20 A Yes. And the assignment -- the reason that had 21 been given that I was sent to the RPF was for other reasons, 22 and I had been protesting this heavily. And in Scientology, 23 the -- it's a maxim that you can't make progress if 24 something is false. So I was protesting my assignment as 25 false. 330 1 So finally, he did say this in this 11 July 2 statement, and it's at the bottom of the first page. In 3 the -- actually the thick large paragraph there, where he 4 says that -- let me see. Give me a second here. Oh, it'll 5 have to be in combination with Greg Wilhere's letter. But 6 he said that -- the bottom paragraph, "It is true that 7 Norman --" and he's referring to Norman Starkey, who was the 8 head of ASI at the time -- "and myself told you that our 9 reasons for letting this action take its own course and you 10 going into the RPF was due to your involvement with 11 Broeker." 12 In other words, this was putting to a -- saying 13 that my statements had been correct. I'd gone to the RPF 14 because of my association with Broeker and not because I was 15 some screw-up. So this was an admission that basically it 16 was a political purge. 17 In the letter which was the following month from 18 Greg Wilhere, the inspector general -- 19 THE COURT: I mean, I -- why is this relevant 20 to this? 21 MR. DANDAR: Because Mr. Weinberg brought it up 22 in cross examination. 23 THE COURT: Well -- 24 MR. DANDAR: Of alleged bias against David 25 Miscavige and Scientology. 331 1 THE COURT: And so a letter from Greg has what 2 to do with whether he likes Mr. Miscavige or 3 Mr. Miscavige likes him or -- 4 MR. DANDAR: Well, actually the primary 5 evidence is 104, the letter from Mr. Miscavige. 6 THE COURT: Okay. And he's explained that. 7 So -- 8 MR. DANDAR: All right. 9 THE COURT: If the others have something to do 10 with 104, then they can just go along with it, but 11 we don't really need an explanation of it. 12 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. All right. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Now, Mr. Young, the Lisa McPherson death, you said 15 yesterday, was the death would have been less of a PR flap 16 than -- 17 THE COURT: What happened here? 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just banged my knee on his 19 chair. I'm sorry, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: I wasn't sure if Mr. Shaw -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: I thought Mr. Shaw had hit him, 22 that's what I thought. 23 THE COURT: That's what I thought too. 24 All right. Excuse me. 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Nothing worse than being 332 1 kneecapped, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Go ahead. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q How is it that the death of Lisa McPherson dying 5 could be less than a PR flap than going back to Morton Plant 6 Hospital while she's alive? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope. I 8 didn't ask him about PR flaps. I didn't. 9 You did. 10 THE COURT: I did. So I'll allow it. 11 THE WITNESS: Am I allowed to respond? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 A Well, I still contend I was trying to touch on it 15 yesterday -- that in effect, it wasn't a PR flap when she 16 died because it was a good year -- 17 THE COURT: This is a repeat of testimony from 18 yesterday and I don't need to hear it again. 19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 20 THE COURT: Unless there's something new. 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, I don't think he talked 22 about -- see, it follows up the questions you were 23 asking him. He didn't talk about why it was not a 24 PR flap. 25 THE COURT: Well, he did. He told us that 333 1 yesterday. That nothing happened for quite 2 sometime. 3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 4 THE COURT: That's exactly what he said. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 6 THE COURT: It took a while. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: What are you looking at, 9 Mr. Dandar? 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm looking at notes that I made 11 during his testimony yesterday when I was -- 12 THE COURT: On a little piece of paper that 13 looks like a tape from a -- 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 THE COURT: -- a -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 17 No, actually, guess what? If you just give me 18 a second -- 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. DANDAR: -- I think I'm done. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Oh. Mr. Weinberg asked you about this e-mail 23 concerning Mr. Rinder which is Defendant's Exhibit 204? You 24 recall that? 25 A Yes. 334 1 Q Where did you get the information from that talked 2 about Mr. Rinder not being allowed to go -- to be with his 3 wife when his infant child died from crib death? 4 A He had mentioned it to me, but it was actually 5 common knowledge within that echelon that it happened. 6 Because first of all, when he -- he lost his -- his child, 7 that was the first piece of knowledge. And that's -- you 8 know, it's the sort of thing people just talk about. And 9 then when he wasn't able to go down, that was one of those 10 things that people just know about. 11 Q And in Exhibit Defense 203, the 21 declarations 12 totalling apparently 358 pages that Mr. Weinberg asked you 13 about -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- in any of those declarations did you slant the 16 truth or try to sway it so it fit the attorney's theory of 17 the case? 18 A No. I just tried to tell it like it was. 19 Q Did you ever hear Stacy say that in any of the 20 times that you and she were -- or she was writing a 21 declaration, that she wanted to fabricate a scenario or 22 slant it so it fit the -- what the attorney needed? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope. I 24 didn't ask him about Stacy. 25 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 335 1 A No. I never heard that. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Now, recently have you been talking to Stacy? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to that, your Honor. 5 We really didn't get into that. It's a whole new 6 area. 7 THE COURT: True. Sustained. 8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Just one second and I think 9 I'm about done. 10 Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I've got one last 11 exhibit here. 12 I'd like to move the three letters into 13 evidence. 104, 105 and 106. 14 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to let them in. As 15 to -- especially the letter from Mr. -- identified 16 as coming from Mr. Miscavige. I don't know exactly 17 what the other two letters have to do with, but I 18 suppose if it relates to the same thing, we'll just 19 let them in. They're authenticated. I don't know 20 what they have to do with this case. This hearing, 21 I should say. 22 MR. DANDAR: Only because Mr. Weinberg brought 23 it up, your Honor. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Let me show you 107. 336 1 A There was one -- 2 Q There's a point? 3 MR. DANDAR: Could he explain something that he 4 wants to tell you about one of the letters from Greg 5 Wilhere? 6 THE WITNESS: There was a line in one of the 7 letters, your Honor, which is, I believe, relevant. 8 THE COURT: All right. Which line is it? 9 THE WITNESS: It's Exhibit 106, the letter 10 which the date at the top is 24 August, 1998. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: Second page. What he's referring 13 to here is a new directive would be put out with 14 regard to my assignment to the RPF. And I bring 15 your attention to the last sentence of the top 16 paragraph. It says, "This issue will also bring to 17 light that you were held at high esteem and 18 trusted." And it's just relevant to my position at 19 the time. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Now, Mr. Young -- 23 THE COURT: Who is this Mr. Greg -- who is 24 Mr. -- who is Greg? 25 THE WITNESS: Greg Wilhere was the inspector 337 1 general at the time. He replaced Vicki Aznaran. 2 THE COURT: Inspector general of --of RTC? 3 THE WITNESS: Of RTC. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q That's while Mr. Miscavige was COB -- chairman of 6 the board of RTC? 7 A Yes. 8 Q All right. Now, just this morning Mr. Weinberg 9 asked you questions about Defendant's Exhibit 209 and 10 introduced into evidence the -- what's purported to be the 11 full IRS response to what the Sea Organization is from the 12 Church of Scientology. 13 And then in the -- page 3 of 1, the second 14 highlighted paragraph says -- tries to relate the Sea 15 Organization to other common religious orders, and says that 16 unlike the other religious orders of other churches -- 17 A Can you give me a moment to find it? 18 Q Okay. 19 A What page is it? 20 Q 3 of 1. 21 A 3-1? Okay. All right. 22 Q "Other religious orders have property, assets and 23 considerable personnel whose full-time job has to do with 24 administration of the order. The Sea Org has none of this." 25 Is that a true statement as far as you know, and 338 1 in your experience? 2 A Well, I know for one thing that there is a -- 3 there's financial assets, large financial assets, that was 4 created by Hubbard and continued on, as far as I know, that 5 were called the Sea Org reserves. And this is money that is 6 made by the Sea Org when they send a project out to an 7 organization and the organization is billed for it. And 8 Mr. Hubbard wrote about that, and that's how they make their 9 money. And the last I knew there was millions and millions 10 of dollars in those assets. 11 Q Well, look at the Plaintiff's Exhibit 107 from the 12 Modern Management Technology Defined. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I object because 14 Mr. Young left in 1989. This was submitted in 1993. 15 And -- and what -- what Mr. Dandar's trying to get 16 him to do is to testify as to the state of the Sea 17 Org reserves in 1993 which he's not competent to do. 18 THE COURT: That's true. 19 MR. DANDAR: Well, not the amount. 20 THE COURT: Well, what difference does it make? 21 MR. WEINBERG: The existence -- 22 MR. DANDAR: Because this document that they 23 just had entered into evidence contains -- 24 THE COURT: When did they enter it into 25 evidence? 339 1 MR. DANDAR: -- contains lies. 2 This is the document -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me for a second. 4 MR. DANDAR: -- that they -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Are you testifying? 6 THE COURT: Just a second. I'm asking him, 7 what is he talking about. 8 MR. DANDAR: Defendant's Exhibit 209, which 9 Mr. Weinberg said is the complete copy of the 10 questions -- the answers from the Church of 11 Scientology to answer question 3A from the IRS about 12 the role of the Sea Org. And here it says on page 3 13 of 1 the Sea Org has no assets. It has no 14 administrative function. It doesn't have a 15 property. 16 And then Mr. Hubbard's own dictionary, which I 17 just introduced as -- part of the dictionary -- as 18 Plaintiff's Exhibit 107, has a definition of Sea Org 19 reserves, and it talks about how the Sea Org does 20 have property and assets. 21 MR. WEINBERG: It's a 1976 dictionary. This is 22 a 1992 submission to the IRS. 23 MR. DANDAR: So I guess they can put on 24 rebuttal and show us that this dictionary's been 25 altered by someone. 340 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what's that have to do 2 with the case? 3 THE COURT: I have no idea what it has to do 4 with the case, but apparently you brought it up. So 5 go on, Mr. Dandar, get it done. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, I did not 7 bring it up. Mr. Young -- Mr. Dandar put in two 8 pages from a five or six page submission. 9 THE COURT: But then you had him read from it. 10 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't have him read from 11 it. 12 THE COURT: Well, actually you did. At least 13 that's my recollection. 14 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't. He -- he -- I 15 didn't ask him any questions about it other than 16 this is -- I had him look at it, "Is this the full 17 answer to the question that you took two pages out 18 of," and he said yes and that's it. That's all I 19 did. 20 THE COURT: What was it that he read from where 21 we had to go through this explanation from 22 Mr. Dandar that he wasn't admitting that it was true 23 but it was just that that's what it said. What was 24 that? 25 MR. DANDAR: Captain and brevet captain. 341 1 MR. WEINBERG: That was from the page he put 2 in. 3 THE COURT: Well, this was this morning. 4 Look, I don't care. 5 MR. DANDAR: This is my last question. 6 THE COURT: I'm going to let it in. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. Go on ahead. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q So Mr. Young, in the Exhibit 107, the Hubbard 11 Dictionary of Administration and Management written by L. 12 Ron Hubbard, turn to page -- beginning at 464. Does it not 13 start to define the Sea Org and then have many definitions 14 afterward concerning things like the Sea Org central bureau, 15 Sea Org org board, the Sea Org estates captain, things like 16 that? 17 A There's a number of definitions that -- where Sea 18 Org is the preface phrase to the definition, yes. 19 Q And turn to page 466. The definition of Sea Org 20 reserves, talking about the amount of money collected for 21 the corporation over and above expenses. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you know whether or not, in 1989 when you left, 24 that Mr. Hubbard's dictionary, after he died in '86, was 25 changed? 342 1 A I don't know of it being changed. 2 Q Do you know if there -- if it was -- if just 3 hypothetically if it was changed, was there any written 4 policy or directives from Mr. Hubbard that would permit the 5 definition of Sea Org and Sea Org reserves to be changed 6 after his death? 7 A No. 8 MR. DANDAR: That's all I have. 9 And I move 107 into evidence. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object for the reason I said 11 before. It's a 1976 dictionary. 12 THE COURT: Well -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: Even before -- I mean, there's 14 been -- Mr. Dandar listed -- 15 THE COURT: If it's been changed, you surely 16 have somebody you can call. 17 MR. WEINBERG: It has been changed. 18 THE COURT: Well, then call a witness. 19 MR. WEINBERG: But -- 20 THE COURT: He says it hasn't, it wouldn't be 21 and it couldn't be. 22 MR. WEINBERG: All right. But I have a 23 different question to ask -- 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. WEINBERG: -- which I think will clear -- 343 1 CROSS EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q The Sea Org reserves, you know that when you look 4 at this definition, they're not talking about a bank account 5 of the Sea Org; they're talking about bank accounts of 6 various corporations and organizations in the Church of 7 Scientology, like the Church of Scientology California or 8 CSI or something like that, correct? That's what this is 9 talking about. 10 A Could you -- could you rephrase that? I lost you 11 in that question. 12 Q You just -- Mr. Dandar just had you look at this 13 definition of Sea Org reserves. Do you see that? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And the definition says, "Often miscalled Flag 16 reserves or management reserves, which they are not. Sea 17 Org reserves are --" and it says -- "the amount of money 18 collected for the corporation over and above expenses that 19 is sent by various units to the corporation's banks." 20 And when they're talking about the corporations, 21 they're not talking about the Sea Org; they're talking about 22 corporations like the church corporations, Church of 23 Scientology California, the church corporation in -- in New 24 York or Boston or -- or now if there was one, CSI or 25 something like that. That's what they're talking about, 344 1 correct? 2 A The corporation, yes. 3 Q They're not talking about the Sea Org has a bank 4 account somewhere, are they? 5 A That's not what it says. They were just set -- 6 you know -- I -- I don't need to explain that. 7 Q All right. Now, you -- you got emotional and told 8 this story about your dog, and the purpose was to leave the 9 impression at this hearing that the Church of Scientology 10 had something to do with your dog getting beaten up. That's 11 the impression that you left, and you even said that's part 12 of fair game, right? 13 A Yes, I said fair game, but I'm not going to 14 concede to the front end of your statement. 15 Q You're not? 16 A That I -- my purpose was to sway someone. It was 17 an emotional event for me. 18 Q But you don't -- as you sit here today, and back 19 then, you don't have and you didn't have back then a shred 20 of evidence that the Church of Scientology or anybody 21 connected with the Church of Scientology had anything to do 22 with your dog getting hurt that you found at the vet. You 23 didn't have any evidence of that, did you? 24 A No. 25 Q It's sort of like when you wrote the affidavit and 345 1 you dropped the footnote about David Miscavige's mother? Is 2 that what you're trying to do today? 3 A Please, Mr. Weinberg, I really -- 4 Q Or mother-in-law? 5 A If you want to equate my dog being beaten with my 6 testimony, I really can't respond to that. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have any further 8 questions. 9 THE COURT: Anything further? 10 MR. DANDAR: No, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Thank you, sir, for coming. You 12 may stand down and you may be excused. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you for your courtesy, your 14 Honor. 15 THE COURT: You're very welcome. 16 All right. Is Mr. Prince here? 17 MR. DANDAR: I will check. 18 MR. WEINBERG: We have Mr. McGowan. 19 THE COURT: I know. I want to see if 20 Mr. Prince was here first, and then I thought if he 21 wasn't, we could -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 23 MR. DANDAR: No, he's not here. 24 THE COURT: All right. We're going to go ahead 25 and take a recess, and I'll have Mr. Weinberg and 346 1 Mr. McGowan and Mr. Dandar and we will go -- I don't 2 think we need a court reporter at this time -- to my 3 chambers. You all take five minutes, then you come 4 to my chambers. You'll give me 10 minutes. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And I may bring a cup of 6 coffee? 7 THE COURT: You may bring a cup of coffee. 8 We're going to be on break for at least 20 minutes, 9 maybe 30. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 11 THE COURT: Maybe 40. I don't know how long 12 it'll take us to get through this. 13 You all be lurking about say after 10:30, 14 10:35. 15 I'll tell you what. Let's just try for 10:45. 16 MR. WEINBERG: To go to your chambers? 17 THE COURT: No, no, dear; to be back in court. 18 You be in my chambers in 10 minutes. 19 (A recess was taken at 10:11 a.m.) 20 (The proceedings were reconvened at 11:25 a.m.) 21 THE COURT: Where are our good friends from the 22 defense side? 23 Okay. Mr. Dandar, you indicated that you had 24 not seen this list. According to Mr. Keane's 25 certificate of service, this was furnished by mail 347 1 to you on the 17th. Was that yesterday? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yesterday, yes. 3 MS. WEST: That's why we don't have it. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Well, presumably it will 5 come today. What I suggest we do is that you get 6 it -- I mean, you can see mine if you want. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think I have that 8 either -- 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: -- to tell you the truth. 11 THE COURT: So what we're going to have to do 12 is just wait till you all get this, see if you 13 object to this and what part you object to, and then 14 we'll just have to try and resolve it. 15 MR. DANDAR: You talking about the search list? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have any of your notes on 17 that? 18 THE COURT: Any what? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have any of your notes on 20 this? 21 THE COURT: On the list? 22 MR. WEINBERG: No. On the -- whatever he 23 submitted to you or what's he's submitted to you -- 24 or if he's sent it to everybody maybe somebody could 25 make a copy and then we could look at it at lunch 348 1 and maybe talk about it when we get back. 2 THE COURT: Oh, you mean do I have -- 3 No, this is the original. So no I do not. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Well, maybe somebody can make a 5 copy of that, give one to us and one to Ken and 6 maybe at lunchtime we could look at it and talk 7 afterwards. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Maybe somebody can. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, if you give it to us, we 10 can make a copy of it. 11 THE COURT: There's what I have here, is the 12 original. It has a very poor page 2, but I can 13 pretty well make out who it is. I think you all can 14 too. Somebody want to take it, make a copy of that? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I'll do that. 16 THE COURT: Don't make it on that machine of 17 yours. 18 MR. DANDAR: At lunchtime. 19 THE COURT: Okay. At lunchtime you can do 20 that. 21 In any event, we'll have to address this after 22 lunch. What we'll do is we'll go through -- I've 23 now gone through this list with counsel. And as far 24 as those that I did not have -- hadn't made a 25 decision on, we went through -- I think we agreed on 349 1 everything. 2 Did you find out anything about Judge Penick's 3 courtroom? 4 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, I did. I just talked to 5 Judge Penick. And in fact, he allowed the LMT to 6 come in and film or videotape the proceedings, along 7 with some French group. So there were two cameras 8 in that courtroom. 9 THE COURT: So they were in there legitimately. 10 MR. McGOWAN: They were in there legitimately. 11 THE COURT: Okay. And in that case, you all 12 don't want them, correct? 13 MR. WEINBERG: No. We don't want them. 14 THE COURT: Okay. So I'm going to strike 15 through those question marks and put "no's" on all 16 of those. 17 And Mr. Dandar objects to some of these, but 18 before I just start with the ones I know he objects 19 to, I'm going to need you to take a look at the -- 20 Oh, here's -- I need you to look and see if 21 there's anybody you object to on there that you 22 haven't seen, okay? 23 MR. DANDAR: All right. 24 THE COURT: And Counselor, I think you can go 25 ahead and be excused. 350 1 MR. McGOWAN: Thank you, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Thank you for coming. 3 (Mr. McGowan left the courtroom.) 4 MR. WEINBERG: You going to make us a copy too? 5 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. 6 Judge, I'm filing request to produce Vicki 7 Aznaran settlement documents, since her declarations 8 were entered subsequent to that settlement or as 9 part of that settlement. I don't know if you want a 10 copy of this or not. 11 THE COURT: I don't know. What is this? A 12 request to produce? 13 MR. DANDAR: To the defendant, yes. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I'll just deal with it 15 when we see if they produce it. Then I don't even 16 need to see it. If they don't -- 17 MR. DANDAR: All right. That's fine. 18 THE COURT: -- why then you can give it to me 19 at that time. 20 MR. DANDAR: All right. 21 THE COURT: Here's one that I didn't go over 22 with you all. December of '99, a cult workshop. 23 Anybody know what that is? 24 MR. DANDAR: Well, it -- it's a meeting of 25 people who want to talk about cults. 351 1 But again, I would object to -- it doesn't have 2 anything to do with this case or this hearing. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 4 THE COURT: It's hard to say, because there are 5 witnesses here. I have no idea. But this is one of 6 those ones where there are some witnesses that are 7 clear witnesses and there are some that aren't. And 8 Mr. Dandar, this is one where you are listed as a 9 witness so we'll have to deal with it anyway. I 10 mean, you're listed as a party who was there. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I would certainly think 12 that would be relevant. 13 MR. DANDAR: Except I'm not a witness. 14 MR. WEINBERG: But there's nothing privileged 15 about it. And that's part of what we say was 16 happening in December of 1999. 17 THE COURT: Remember what I'm saying here is 18 that you -- this -- as I understand, all these 19 discovery orders were produced pursuant to a trial, 20 not pursuant to this hearing. 21 MR. WEINBERG: They were produced -- 22 THE COURT: So we're going to have Mr. Dandar 23 be able to look at this and then we're going to have 24 an argument on this -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 352 1 THE COURT: -- as to whether or not anything 2 that Mr. Dandar is a participant in is something 3 that is to be released. 4 MR. DANDAR: May I look at that during lunch 5 or -- 6 THE COURT: What, this? 7 No, you may not look at this. 8 MR. DANDAR: All right. 9 THE COURT: That's private. Neither of you get 10 to see this. 11 MR. DANDAR: All right. 12 THE COURT: This was sent to me. I'll seal it 13 back up just like I got it, and it'll be -- 14 No, you may not. 15 I will go through those that have you listed in 16 the event I decide that somehow you qualify as a 17 witness, and tell you which ones that they are so 18 you can be heard on each and every one of them. I 19 think there are about five of them. And there's an 20 awful lot of tapes here. 21 Okay. It's 11:30. It's about lunchtime. You 22 want to get started? 23 MR. DANDAR: We could start or take an early 24 lunch. I'll leave it up to the court. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I sort of suggest we take an 353 1 early lunch and come back. 2 THE COURT: All right. If we do that, what I 3 suggest we do is that, Mr. Dandar, you make your 4 copy of that and give it to counsel, and you show me 5 and tell me what people you don't think are 6 witnesses. 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: I'm going to have to try to get 9 Mr. Keane here to see how he got this list, because 10 his -- his order says that it -- 11 Please. That's an original. Don't be messing 12 it up. I mean, if you don't have a staple remover, 13 for heaven sake -- 14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm a master at that and it 15 will come out perfect. 16 I apologize. 17 THE COURT: Okay. We'll go ahead and be in 18 recess until -- might as well make it -- well, we'll 19 say quarter to 1. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 21 THE COURT: Do you want to be heard? Was this 22 211, which is this document that you had some 23 objection to 'cause you said it was work product, 24 was that ever introduced? 25 MR. WEINBERG: We didn't introduce it. 354 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't, because of the -- 3 THE COURT: Possible problem? 4 MR. WEINBERG: -- circumstances. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. WEINBERG: So -- you know, so once that's 7 cleared up, I probably will introduce it. 8 THE COURT: Okay. How about -- I've got here 9 what appears to be Plaintiff's 104, -5 and -6. 10 Those were introduced, weren't they? 11 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, they were. 13 THE COURT: And then there's one -- 14 I guess that's it. 15 MR. FUGATE: 103, I think, was that notice 16 of -- judicial notice on the affidavits that you 17 gave her earlier? Is that what that is? 18 THE COURT: Yeah. 19 MR. DANDAR: There's some I haven't moved into 20 evidence yet, Judge, that Mr. Young identified. 21 THE COURT: Well, look, we're done for the 22 morning, so I'm not doing any more record business. 23 We just took a lunch break. 24 (A recess was taken at 11:25 a.m.) 25 355 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 18th day of June, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25