1 1 2 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 5 6 7 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 8 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 9 10 Plaintiff, 11 vs. VOLUME 1 12 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 13 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 14 Defendants. 15 _______________________________________/ 16 17 18 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 19 CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince. 20 DATE: June 18, 2002, afternoon session. 21 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 22 St. Petersburg, Florida. 23 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 24 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, 25 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorneys for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MR. LEE FUGATE and 12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 15 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 17 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 20 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 21 Attorney for LMT. 22 23 24 25 3 1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 JESSE PRINCE 5 13 DIRECT Mr. Dandar 6 5 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 (The proceedings were resumed at 12:50 p.m.) 2 MR. WEINBERG: I left that on your chair. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. WEINBERG: And I have one thing to hand up 5 to you. I'm told this is the original and the 6 copies that were made of what Mr. Keane produced to 7 Mr. Moxon yesterday? 8 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Great. 9 MR. WEINBERG: The original is the thin file 10 and the copies are behind it. 11 THE COURT: Okay. And we'll -- as I said, 12 Mr. Keane is here, and so when he gets a chance, I'm 13 sure he'll come up. 14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I believe I moved 15 Plaintiff's Exhibits 104, 105, 106 and 107 into 16 evidence, and Mr. Young had the clerk's copies, and 17 they're not marked yet, so -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Let me see 107. 19 MR. DANDAR: These are the letters. 20 MR. WEINBERG: We objected to the dictionary 21 but you had let it in, so -- 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 Possibly on these -- this production, it could 24 be something similar to the -- this -- this order. 25 I mean, he may have mailed a copy. 5 1 This is the order you just put back on my 2 chair. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, yeah. 4 THE COURT: If he mailed them to you yesterday, 5 but -- I mean, we'll just have to wait and see. 6 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 7 THE COURT: So let's go ahead and continue on 8 and we'll see if Mr. Keane has -- gets a chance to 9 come up here. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. Plaintiff calls 11 Mr. Prince. 12 ____________________________________ 13 JESSE PRINCE, 14 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 15 and testified as follows: 16 MR. WEINBERG: For the record, your Honor, I 17 want to preserve the same objection that we've made 18 to Mr. Franks -- is that his name -- Mr. Franks and 19 Mr. Young, which is, among other things, the 404, 20 406, the First Amendment, and overall, at least as 21 it relates to the -- paragraph 34 of the complaint, 22 to competence, in light of the fact that he left the 23 church years before and doesn't have any personal 24 knowledge of what if anything occurred in 1995. 25 THE COURT: All right. 6 1 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. I presume that 2 it's preserved? And I will limit my objections to 3 things like hearsay and other -- 4 THE COURT: It is preserved. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Please state your name, and spell your last name. 8 THE COURT: What witness is that? Do you all 9 have the numbers by any chance? How many witnesses 10 have you called, do you remember? 11 MR. DANDAR: Caught me off guard. 12 THE COURT: All right. I'm just trying to put 13 a number with it. 14 Go ahead. 15 A Jesse Prince, J-e-s-s-e, P-r-i-n-c-e. 16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I think we're number six. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. DANDAR: I'll double-check. Mr. Lirot will 19 be checking. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Mr. Prince, how long have you lived in Pinellas 22 County? 23 A Oh, for a little over two and a half years. 24 Q Are you currently employed? 25 A No, I am not. 7 1 Q When is the last time you were employed? 2 A Last September. 3 Q And who were you employed by? 4 A The Lisa McPherson Trust. 5 Q What is the extent of your formal education? 6 A Went to Catholic school pretty much all of my 7 elementary years. I was born and raised a Catholic. Went 8 to Chicago Vocational High School; went to Job Corps; went 9 to community college, college prep in Chicago. I had a 10 scholarship for University of Louisiana which I never took. 11 And that's pretty much it. 12 Q Why didn't you take the scholarship to Louisiana? 13 A 'Cause I was afraid to go there. 14 Q All right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could we possibly -- 16 I don't know if the microphone's on or not, but I'm 17 having a hard time hearing Mr. Prince. 18 THE COURT: Check and see if the microphone's 19 on. 20 MR. WEINBERG: If you could get -- not that 21 close, but a little bit closer than he was. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Just try to talk into it. 24 A Okay. 25 Q So what did you do after finishing your formal 8 1 education? 2 A I had various jobs. I worked at the Norfolk and 3 Western Railroad as a clerk. I've worked in binderies, a 4 place in Chicago, Fidelity Bindery. And -- well, wasn't too 5 much time after that before I became a Scientologist. 6 Q What year did you join the Church of Scientology? 7 A It was 1976. 8 Q Where at? 9 A San Francisco. 10 Q And when did you become a Sea Org member? 11 A I became a Sea Org member that same year. I 12 believe I transferred to Los Angeles from San Francisco, 13 maybe in November, September or -- maybe September; sometime 14 between September or October, November, I went to the Sea 15 Org. 16 Q Okay. And can you tell us -- give us a capsule of 17 your experience in the Church of Scientology after becoming 18 a Sea Org member? What did you do? 19 A Well, I joined the Sea Org in '76. And then at 20 that time, when you joined the Sea Org, there was a program 21 that was called the EPF that everyone who was becoming a Sea 22 Org member did. EPF stood for estate's project force. This 23 was located in a little house in -- in Los Angeles. I guess 24 it was an old Charlie Chaplin estate. It was a place where 25 you had to do training to become a Sea Org member. 9 1 The training for the most part culminated to 2 making you a missionaire. A missionaire in the Sea Org is a 3 person that has studied certain levels up to at least what's 4 called staff status 2, which basically means you're familiar 5 with the basics of the organization, how it operates, how 6 it's staffed, how it's organized, the statistics of the area 7 and the rules and regulations. 8 It trains -- the mission school training involved 9 something that I guess I never even thought before. It was 10 very military, where you -- you wear a uniform and you -- 11 you're trained on orders to go to a Scientology organization 12 and improve the statistics by either changing personnel or 13 increasing production one way or the other. 14 Q And how long did you maintain that status? 15 A During the entire time, from -- from that point, 16 which would have been in 1977, to the time that I left in 17 1992. 18 Q And what organization -- when you became a Sea Org 19 member and became staff, what organization was paying you? 20 A Organization called the Advanced Organization Los 21 Angeles. 22 Q And did you ever change from that to another? 23 A Yes, I did. I never made it through the EPF 24 before I was put on the RPF. I was on the RPF for -- RPF 25 being the rehabilitation project force. I was on the RPF 10 1 for 18 months. And I got out of the RPF and went to an 2 organization called the PAC Co-Auditor Organization, P-A-C, 3 Pacific Area Command, Co-Auditor Organization. This was a 4 Scientology organization that basically supervised and 5 trained staff members to audit themselves on Scientology's 6 bridge. 7 Q How long did you stay there? 8 A I probably stayed there for probably a little 9 under a year. And I transferred from Los Angeles to here in 10 Clearwater, Florida in 1979, and I worked in -- at the Ft. 11 Harrison -- 12 Q What did you do -- 13 A -- and various other buildings. 14 I came there -- I came to Florida here to be a 15 supervisor; to actually train and supervise the training of 16 auditors, which are members that partake in the -- the 17 technical aspect of delivery of Scientology services. 18 Q You were an auditor? 19 A Yes, I was. 20 Q And when did you -- 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry. You came to Clearwater 22 when, sir? 23 THE WITNESS: 1979. 24 THE COURT: To train supervisors. 25 THE WITNESS: To -- to become a supervisor. I 11 1 came here actually as a supervisor, to train 2 auditors. 3 At the time, NED for OTs had recently come out. 4 This was a big advance. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q NED, N-E-D? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What does that mean? 9 A New era dynamics for operating thetans. 10 Q This had just come out? 11 A Yes. This was new technology that had came out. 12 And it was urgent at that time in Scientology to be able to 13 train auditors in this new rundown. This rundown is 14 delivered only by certain organizations, Flag being one of 15 them. There's others in other countries. And this was a 16 very specialized type of auditing. So I was to train the 17 bulk of the auditors on this process so that they could then 18 go back to their organizations and deliver this new rundown. 19 Q How did you did learn how to do it -- how did you 20 learn about it before you were able to train other auditors? 21 A Well, there were other auditor levels that one had 22 to train on before being able to train on this NED for OT 23 levels. I guess there was a requirement that a person had 24 to at least do Scientology academy levels, which are levels 25 0 to 4, specific auditing techniques. And once you were 12 1 in -- trained and interned on that, you became eligible to 2 also learn to do this new NED for OTs business. 3 You also had to be of the same case level in order 4 to do that. So for a person to be trained as a NED for OTs 5 auditor, they would have had to go through Scientology's 6 bridge all the way up to and through OT 3 expanded. 7 Q How far up the bridge had you gotten before you 8 came to Clearwater? 9 A I had done -- or I was mid what was called old OT 10 6. 11 Q Okay. 12 A And at the time, the levels only went to OT 7. So 13 I was on the old OT 6. Now, those OT levels changed with 14 the advent of NED for OTs to become something totally 15 different. OT 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are something totally 16 different than what the services that were earlier offered 17 under those same names. 18 Q How long did you stay in Clearwater, from 1979, to 19 supervise and train auditors? 20 A I was here from the summer of '79 till the fall of 21 1982. 22 Q And did your scope of the work that you were doing 23 at the Ft. Harrison and other Scientology buildings here in 24 Clearwater from '79 to '82 change? 25 A Yes, it did. It changed several times. I went 13 1 from supervising auditors, to train them to get up to the 2 level of NED 4 OTs, to being -- 3 THE COURT: I don't know what you're saying. 4 NED fro-teez (phonetic.) 5 THE WITNESS: New era dynamic for operating 6 thetans. This is -- 7 MR. DANDAR: NED is N-E-D. 8 THE COURT: For OTs. 9 MR. DANDAR: F-o-r. Yes. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 11 A Anyway, I forgot what I was -- 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Was NED for OTs -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- written by Mr. Hubbard? 16 A At the time that I studied them, I thought that it 17 was that. I -- subsequently I guess it was determined in 18 the courtroom that the materials were actually written by 19 David Mayo. 20 Q Okay. But anyway, you were -- who were you 21 working for when you were sent to Clearwater from '79 to 22 '82? 23 A Well, when I first arrived in 1979, I worked for 24 an organization that wasn't at the Ft. Harrison but at the 25 Clearwater Bank Building. It was called the International 14 1 Training Org, ITO for short. At the time the commanding 2 officer for the international training organization was Bill 3 Franks. 4 Q Okay. So you worked under him? 5 A Under his command as the commanding officer. I 6 had -- there were other people between myself and -- 7 Q Okay. 8 A -- Mr. Franks for sure. 9 Q Did you run into -- in Clearwater, did you train 10 Alain Kartuzinski? 11 A Yes. Alain Kartuzinski was a student that had 12 come from Paris to train on NED for OTs. I do believe the 13 original idea for him was to go to one of the European 14 organizations such as Advanced Organization for Europe or -- 15 yeah. I think he was supposed to go to AOSH EU -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- it's called, which is located in Copenhagen, 18 Denmark. Or he would go to the one located in Saint Hill, 19 East Grinstead, Sussex. 20 Q Try to keep closer to the microphone. 21 A I'm sorry. 22 Q And what else did you do in Clearwater from '79 to 23 '82, in addition to training auditors on this new rundown? 24 A Well, I became what's known as the intern 25 supervisor, which is the supervisor that takes the students 15 1 that have finished their courses and then puts them through 2 a period of time where they have to demonstrate their skills 3 by auditing other people. And they continue to do this 4 until they can do it perfectly and flawlessly. The intern 5 supervisor is there to guide and direct and correct students 6 on the materials that they may not have understood as deeply 7 and as -- as would later be required for them to apply. 8 So I was the supervisor for a long time. 9 And then there is another position -- and all of 10 these things are -- kind of segue into one another -- of 11 what's called a cramming officer. Now, a cramming officer 12 will take a person who maybe is making errors in auditing 13 and then correct them on their procedures or go over the 14 exact bulletin or policy or whatever it may be that was not 15 followed exactly, and to make the person understand and 16 agree with that policy, and then apply it as written. 17 So I did that for a long time. 18 And then I became the chief cramming officer at 19 the Flag Service Organization. I did this correction type 20 of activities for auditors from level 0 to level 12, which 21 would be the highest level in what are called the Ls in 22 Scientology. And I would do correction on all the auditors 23 as well as the case supervisors. 24 Q Now, were you -- did you have -- in order to be a 25 supervisor or cramming officer for auditors and supervisors, 16 1 if I'm saying this right, did you have more training than 2 they had? 3 A Not necessarily. I certainly did not have more 4 training than the majority of the case supervisors that I 5 would do correction on. And I did not train on the Ls, 6 which would be 10, 11 and 12, which are the highest levels 7 of -- of Scientology. But I was like a class 9 auditor. 8 Q At that time. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you ever get higher than that? 11 A Yes. I became a -- I was interned as an auditor, 12 certified as a class 9 auditor; certified as a 13 corrections -- a cramming officer, correction officer; 14 certified as a case supervisor for a class 9 as well. 15 Q Okay. And how high on the bridge did you go? 16 A When I left, I had completed what's known in 17 Scientology as OT 7. 18 Q Okay. All right. So have we covered your years 19 from '79 to '82 in Clearwater -- 20 A Yes. 21 Q -- as what you did? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. What did you do after '82? 24 A I was transferred -- well, in 1982, in the fall of 25 1982, I was transferred to work at the Scientology 17 1 International headquarters. Of course I didn't know it was 2 that at the time. But I was transferred to work at Golden 3 Era Productions, which is the movie production studio that 4 Scientology has in the desert at Gilman Hot Springs, 5 California. I was transferred to work in the RTC as a 6 corrections specialist. 7 Q And how long did you do that? 8 A I probably did that from '82 -- for about a year 9 and a half. I did that job for about a year and a half. 10 Maybe to 1985 and -- or maybe even '84. Because after that, 11 I was promoted to a higher position; became the deputy 12 inspector general for the Religious Technology Center. 13 Q And who appointed you to that position? 14 A Vicki Aznaran appointed me to that position. It 15 was approved by those that -- you know, the seniors above 16 that area, which was David Miscavige. 17 Q Did Mr. Hubbard ever have any input in any of the 18 selections -- selecting you for any position? 19 A In -- in as much as when I left here in Florida, 20 there was a -- a mission out to find the best supervisor, 21 best cramming officer in Scientology, and to bring that 22 person to international management, and correct 23 international management on its application of Scientology 24 policies. A search was done in the organizations 25 internationally, and at the end of that -- the weeding-out 18 1 process, I guess my name came up as the person to fill that 2 job. So he was informed that I had that job, and he 3 welcomed me to that job when I arrived in California. 4 Q How did he -- Mr. Hubbard welcome you to that job? 5 A He sent me a dispatch, a letter -- 6 Q Okay. 7 A -- welcoming me. 8 Q And what is the duties of the deputy inspector 9 general of RTC? 10 A Well, this may take a while. 11 But as the deputy inspector general -- there's 12 only one position higher than that in the Scientology 13 ecclesiastical org board, which would have been inspector 14 general. 15 RTC licensed other Scientology corporations to use 16 the trademarks, a licensing agreement. And RTC was 17 responsible, I believe -- maybe still is responsible -- for 18 ensuring the purity of application and delivery of 19 Scientology technology, auditing technology as well as 20 administrative policies. 21 And so because we licensed different corporations 22 such as the Church of Scientology International -- if you 23 had organizing chart you would have RTC, which would be 24 here; then you would have the mother church, which is the 25 Church of Scientology International, which is here. The 19 1 mother church in turn then license other organizations, such 2 as the Flag Service Organization, AOSH EU, AOSH UK, and the 3 Los Angeles organization missions. Whatever entities were 4 using the trademarks and copyrighted works of L. Ron 5 Hubbard, they were given a licensing agreement. 6 So in that regard, ultimately -- there's a very 7 strict policy in Scientology called Keeping Scientology 8 Working, where it's imperative that everything is done 9 exactly according to the policies and technical bulletins 10 written. I was ultimately responsible to ensure that not 11 only the Church of Scientology International was making good 12 on its licensing agreements, but it was also enforcing it 13 down through other organizations to make sure that they were 14 adhering to their licensing agreement to apply Scientology 15 technology 100 percent standard. 16 You know, this is a -- a term that they use. 17 So I had that responsibility -- 18 THE COURT: Oh, just a second here. We have -- 19 I see Mr. Keane back there. 20 Mr. Keane, I hope you haven't been back there 21 long. 22 Let me just take -- 23 Are you in with Judge Lenderman? 24 MR. KEANE: I'm good until 1:29. 25 THE COURT: I'm going to take a break. 20 1 (A recess was taken at 1:13 p.m.) 2 (The proceedings were resumed at 1:49 p.m.) 3 THE COURT: Okay. Let me see if I can make 4 some sense of this. 5 According to Mr. Keane, he says that early on 6 this witness list was indeed agreed to by everybody, 7 that everybody knew what it was, and that it was 8 called that, and that's the witness list he's been 9 working off of ever since. 10 MR. DANDAR: The letter I was handed, that was 11 handed to you from Mr. Moxon to Mr. Keane, dated 12 December 14th, 2001 states, "This is the search 13 list." And that's what's attached to his June 17th 14 order. "I have also highlighted the same names on 15 the witness list referenced above so you can see 16 where they came from." 17 So the search list includes a lot more names 18 than what's on anyone's witness list. 19 THE COURT: I don't know what you're talking 20 about. I have no idea what you're reading from. 21 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm sorry. Mr. Moxon's letter 22 of December 14th, 2001. 23 THE COURT: Now where you are reading on from 24 on this? 25 MR. DANDAR: Bottom paragraph. 21 1 THE COURT: Right. 2 MR. DANDAR: He says this is the search list. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. DANDAR: And he says that's the names from 5 which the search would be requested by defendants. 6 And he says, "I have also highlighted these same 7 names on the witness list referenced above." And 8 the witness list referenced above are real witness 9 lists. And I'm telling the court that the search 10 list includes more than the witness list. 11 THE COURT: Well, this was sent, a copy of 12 this, to you. 13 MR. DANDAR: That's what it says, yes. 14 THE COURT: And then -- I don't know -- this is 15 additional witnesses that's attached to this -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Just one of the exhibits. It 17 was just one of the exhibits. The other exhibits -- 18 I'm sorry, your Honor. As indicated in the letter, 19 they were tabbed -- they were A through F tabs. And 20 we just -- we didn't include for your purposes the 21 other tabs. We can print it all out. But this was 22 tabbed -- which one -- E. This was tab E that we 23 attached, which had some of those additional names 24 that Mr. Dandar was complaining about back in the 25 back, when you and Mr. Dandar and I were with 22 1 Mr. McGowan earlier. 2 THE COURT: And that's the one that has Kennan 3 Dandar, Thomas Dandar, Ray Emmons -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 5 THE COURT: -- Michael Garko, Thomas Haverty -- 6 MR. DANDAR: Patricia Greenway. 7 MR. WEINBERG: So Mr. Keane is right. 8 So if that wasn't enough, on June 7th 9 Mr. Dandar wrote a letter to Mr. Keane. And we 10 handed that up. And among other things, he wanted 11 all videos of him produced by Mr. Keane. 12 THE COURT: Well, it says, "I have also 13 included several additional witnesses who either 14 provided affidavits or deposition testimony or are 15 the subject of dispute as to whether or not they 16 should be required to give testimony." 17 What does that have to do with any judge's 18 order? This is to be a judge's order. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Because -- 20 THE COURT: Said somebody on a witness list. 21 MR. WEINBERG: No. What the October order of 22 Judge -- Judge Quesada went further -- because this 23 had been going on for a long time. It was actually 24 a November order. What Judge Quesada -- 25 I can hand it up to you. It's one of the 23 1 series of orders. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. WEINBERG: And it started in 2000 and this 4 was in 2000. 5 You go to -- you go to page 2, you'll see it 6 was expanded by Judge Quesada to include not only 7 people on the witness list, but any other person 8 reasonably identifiable as a witness to the facts in 9 this case. 10 THE COURT: Well, you think that means the 11 lawyer? Is that what you're telling me? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, remember, after -- this 13 was a -- this was a living -- there was an argument 14 at some point by Mr. Dandar that -- or by 15 Mr. Merrett, I guess it was -- that this should be 16 limited to whenever the subpoena was originally 17 served. And what the judge has ruled is that no, 18 you can't -- you know, this is a living thing here. 19 And by this time we had an affirmative defense 20 that ultimately became the counterclaim. And as 21 witnesses to the affirmative defense, which is -- 22 which is the -- the issues -- the ultimate issues in 23 the counterclaim, all of these people with regard 24 to, you know, Mr. Dandar, the people at the LMT -- 25 those were all going to be witnesses and will be 24 1 witnesses to -- to that. I mean, that's what this 2 hearing in part -- 3 THE COURT: Well, do you think that Judge 4 Quesada meant to include the lawyers and the 5 investigator when he signed this, saying, "Well, any 6 other person reasonably identified as a witness to 7 the facts in this case"? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I guess I can't get into 9 Judge Quesada's head. 10 THE COURT: I guess. 11 MR. WEINBERG: All I know is this was -- at the 12 time -- subsequently when this was being exchanged 13 between counsel, with Mr. Keane, all of this was put 14 in front of Mr. Keane. Both sides had it. And 15 Mr. Keane is right; that it was agreed to. 16 And if that wasn't enough, Mr. Dandar, just 10 17 days ago, wrote a letter to Mr. Keane saying that, 18 "During the inspection of the videos provided by the 19 LMT, we are requesting copies of the following 20 videos be provided to the estate." And those 21 include all videos of Ken Dandar. So -- among 22 others. 23 So it's obvious that his understanding was the 24 same as our understanding, which is the same as 25 Mr. Keane's understanding, that, among others, the 25 1 videos of the LMT that had to do with Mr. Dandar -- 2 which couldn't have been privileged or work product, 3 even his testimony -- 4 THE COURT: The problem is, whether they're 5 privileged or whether they're not, no judge in this 6 circuit, including Judge Quesada, would want you to 7 have work product of another lawyer to give you an 8 advantage in this case. 9 MR. WEINBERG: But it's not work product. I 10 mean, work product has to have some -- 11 THE COURT: I don't care if he's talking to the 12 world. Judge Quesada would not have wanted you to 13 have Mr. Dandar on tape telling anybody over at LMT, 14 "This is how I'm going to proceed with my lawsuit." 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but that's our -- that is 16 our claim, that that's precisely what Mr. Dandar was 17 doing. That is part of the claim. 18 THE COURT: That is not -- has nothing to do 19 with the wrongful death. This thing was filed -- 20 this thing was signed back in November of 2000. 21 MR. WEINBERG: That's correct. We -- 22 THE COURT: You didn't file this thing -- 23 this -- this motion back then. This motion is a 24 very recent motion. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, which motion are we 26 1 talking about? 2 THE COURT: The motion that is at hearing and 3 is at issue here. 4 MR. WEINBERG: No, but what we had filed by 5 then -- and someone will correct me if I'm wrong -- 6 is our -- is our defense, which -- our affirmative 7 defense, which started out being an affirmative 8 defense with regard to the allegations concerning 9 how the LMT had -- and Minton had taken control of 10 the litigation. All that was there. That was when 11 we -- when we -- that was our defense. 12 Ultimately in 2002, I guess it was, we 13 converted that -- or 2001, converted that into a 14 counterclaim which is before the court. But I mean, 15 that started out -- that was one of our, you know, 16 primary defenses. 17 And that's how all this got going in 2000 with 18 all the litigation concerning the LMT. Our position 19 was Mr. Minton had taken over the litigation; that 20 he was using the LMT to foster the litigation for 21 improper purpose, and -- and that in essence was 22 running the litigation and running Mr. Dandar. 23 THE COURT: Well -- 24 MR. DANDAR: Judge -- 25 THE COURT: -- I don't care what some other 27 1 judge has done. You are not getting Mr. Dandar's 2 notes; you are not getting Mr. Dandar's videos until 3 I see them; you are not getting Mr. Dandar's e-mails 4 beyond the hundreds of them that you've already 5 gotten, apparently; you are not getting any of that 6 stuff until I see it and make sure that it has -- 7 there's some reason why the opposition ought to have 8 it. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, just for the 10 record, if I can, first of all, we have everything 11 that we have -- 12 THE COURT: Well, for the record, did you see 13 this additional list? 14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I can't stand here and tell 15 you that I did. I can't stand -- 16 THE COURT: Well, can you tell me that you did 17 not or you just don't have a clue? 18 MR. DANDAR: I have no clue if I ever got this 19 letter. 20 THE COURT: But you saw it and you said what 21 you said to me in chambers. 22 Why didn't you bring this to my attention a 23 long time ago? 24 MR. DANDAR: It appears to me I would have done 25 that had I saw my name and my investigators, several 28 1 of them, and trial consultants on here, like Brian 2 Haney, Patricia Greenway, Michael Garko, Ray Emmons, 3 Tom Dandar, Ken Dandar -- I would have objected to 4 that. Ursula Caberta -- my God, she's a government 5 official that has nothing to do with this case 6 whatsoever. 7 And Judge Beach even modified Judge Quesada's 8 order and narrowed it down and said -- I recall this 9 because Mr. Moxon and I were at one of these 10 hearings with Judge Beach. He said Judge Quesada 11 said, "The facts of this case, Lisa McPherson case." 12 And he said, "You will not get any other person 13 unless they are a witness to the Lisa McPherson 14 death." 15 MR. WEINBERG: I just don't see how Mr. Dandar 16 can say that, you know. Every -- 17 MR. DANDAR: And I will produce -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Every time we produce a document 19 that has his name on it, he says, "Well, I don't 20 have it. I can't find it. I didn't get it." 21 THE COURT: No, he didn't say whether he did or 22 he didn't. He said he doesn't know. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, he -- he did. 24 THE COURT: Well, you don't know whether he did 25 or he didn't either. For all you know it's sitting 29 1 over there on his desk. You all have about ten 2 lawyers. He's alone. His mail could be unopened. 3 That's not your fault. But you don't know whether 4 he's seen it or whether he hasn't. 5 MR. DANDAR: I know that we sent it to him. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. WIENBERG: And I know that the practice is, 8 in addition to sending it, is to fax it. And that's 9 the practice on both sides. But I'm also concerned 10 about -- 11 THE COURT: Who is Thomas Haverty? 12 MR. DANDAR: That's my investigator. 13 THE COURT: And why was it that you thought 14 that he might be a -- reasonably a fact witness so 15 you could have his information? 16 MR. MOXON: I can respond to that, your Honor. 17 18 Mr. Haverty is someone -- remember he did this 19 whole thing with the roach experiment? He organized 20 and actually pulled this experiment with the 21 roaches. And that was one of the videos you may 22 have seen during the Frye hearings, was 23 Mr. Haverty -- 24 THE COURT: Well, I don't see it here limited 25 to anything dealing with roaches. This is a law 30 1 firm's investigator. You said, "Give me 2 everything," and said Mr. Dandar said it was okay, 3 anything -- any e-mail, any video, any anything -- 4 MR. MOXON: I didn't -- 5 THE COURT: -- that's investigated. 6 MR. MOXON: I didn't finish my answer, your 7 Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MOXON: Mr. Haverty was also seen many 10 times at LMT. This goes very directly to Mr. Dandar 11 using LMT, using it through Mr. Haverty. 12 Mr. Haverty once accosted me outside the church. He 13 ran out of LMT and accosted me personally. He was 14 seen in other cities tailing and taking photographs, 15 for example, of Mr. Lieberman and other attorneys 16 who were at a deposition. 17 Mr. Haverty also was -- has custody of the 18 Jeep. He -- somehow he was able to get custody of 19 the Jeep used in this accident. 20 THE COURT: What Jeep? 21 MR. MOXON: Lisa McPherson's Jeep that was 22 involved in the accident. So we definitely want to 23 question him about that, because the Jeep has 24 apparently been damaged and had other things happen 25 to it in the meantime. 31 1 So Mr. Haverty has been involved in a number of 2 those issues. 3 But the thing I was most concerned about 4 obviously with the LMT, was using Mr. Haverty, as 5 with other agents through LMT, to have some effect 6 on this case. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. MOXON: That's why he was on there. 9 THE COURT: This -- I find this almost beyond 10 belief that you, Mr. Dandar -- if you -- if you have 11 this in your office -- 12 MR. DANDAR: We're checking now. 13 THE COURT: -- that you didn't bring this to my 14 attention and object to it and object to it 15 strenuously. Then we could have had this argument. 16 Unfortunately, Mr. Keane says this was all agreed to 17 by everybody. And therefore, this list is the 18 list -- the list that is attached to his Interim 19 Report of Special Master to Examine LMT Records and 20 Preserving Records. This is what he calls a search 21 list, Exhibit A, which has a huge number of people 22 on it. A huge number of people. Some of whom are 23 Michael Garko, Patricia Greenway, Thomas Haverty, 24 Kennan Dandar, Thomas Dandar -- I have no idea what 25 he knows about this case -- Ray Emmons -- 32 1 Did you tell me he was one of -- 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 3 THE COURT: What is he? 4 MR. DANDAR: An investigator. 5 THE COURT: Michael Garko, I know, is an 6 investigator. 7 MR. DANDAR: Trial consultant. 8 MR. WEINBERG: No, no. He's a trial 9 consultant. 10 THE COURT: Trial consultant. Okay. 11 Anyway, it goes on and on. I don't know who 12 all is on here. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, a lot of them are church 14 witnesses. That's a consolidation of -- of 15 witnesses -- 16 THE COURT: I'm talking about those that I 17 might have expected if Mr. Dandar was raising what 18 he was raising in my -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: Oh. 20 THE COURT: -- in my chambers, he would have 21 raised. Those are the witnesses I was assuming -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 23 THE COURT: -- he would have objected to. 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 25 THE COURT: So I mean, you got this letter, 33 1 Mr. Keane's been operating off of this since this 2 process started. And you know, I don't know what to 3 tell you. You can't keep up with what's going on in 4 your office, then you need to get off the case. If 5 you got this and you have an objection and you were 6 letting this go on, you can't expect me to come in 7 and save your bacon or save the day -- 8 MR. DANDAR: If -- 9 THE COURT: -- you know. So -- so now you're 10 all upset and -- and Mr. Keane says, "Well, gee, 11 I've been operating under this from the very 12 beginning." 13 MR. DANDAR: It's only very few of the people 14 that we're objecting to on that search list. And 15 the fact that it hasn't been turned over yet, I 16 think -- 17 THE COURT: He's got hundreds of documents that 18 have been turned over. As a matter of fact I've got 19 here copies for you of what has been turned over 20 last night. 21 And no, Mr. Keane isn't making copies. He's 22 going on the assumption that there's an order that 23 says that these things are to be turned over. He 24 says he got together with all the lawyers, including 25 you, including Mr. Merrett, including Mr. Moxon or I 34 1 don't know who all over there, and they -- he said 2 he tried to get his arms around it and said, "Let's 3 decide how we're going to do this." And then, as 4 things started showing up and it appeared that it 5 matched the order that the judge required, he was 6 giving it over to LMT's lawyer to see whether or not 7 he was claiming a privilege of any sort. And if so, 8 those are kept separate and those are going to be 9 turned over to me. 10 And if, in fact, there was no privilege claim, 11 he was calling Mr. Moxon -- who, by the way, both 12 sides seem to say knew before they knew that the 13 documents were there -- and Mr. Moxon was right 14 there instantly, wanting them, and everything was 15 turned over, because it complied with the court 16 order. 17 Now, he was not making copies for you. 18 Apparently they're there. If you want them, you can 19 have them. If you don't have the time to go get 20 them, what is it I'm supposed to do for you? 21 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I don't think you could 22 expect me to expect that the LMT, for instance, had 23 a e-mail of some sort from me to Mr. Young from 24 April of '98 before the LMT was ever even formed. 25 THE COURT: No, I couldn't expect that. But 35 1 obviously, they do. And obviously, they probably 2 have a lot of other stuff. I don't know what they 3 have. But what I suggest you do is get yourself or 4 get somebody else over to Mr. Keane's office and see 5 what it is you want. 6 MR. DANDAR: Has Mr. Keane told you that they 7 already produced these videos of me and my 8 investigators? 9 THE COURT: No. The videos, I stopped the 10 videos myself and said that none of them would be 11 turned over until I went through and decided whether 12 to turn them over, and that's what I'm -- I'm going 13 to take care of that this afternoon. 14 I can't help you with these. Here's your copy. 15 That's what was turned over. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Ours back? 17 THE COURT: Well, let me look in them and see 18 if this is the same thing. I never did compare 19 them. I'm just assuming -- 20 Mr. Keane -- and I also entered an oral verbal 21 order to Mr. Keane that he is to produce nothing to 22 you that has Mr. Dandar, from or to, until such time 23 as I review it and decide whether or not you should 24 get it. 25 And frankly -- 36 1 MR. WEINBERG: The top thing should just be 2 what you just turned over, probably, and the other 3 ones are copies. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. MOXON: There's a smaller packet too, your 6 Honor, a few other pages. 7 THE COURT: Maybe you can help me, this Text 8 Fragments -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Maybe Mr. Moxon -- 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I haven't looked at those. 12 THE COURT: Are these all the same things, 13 copies? 14 MR. MOXON: The big ones are all -- this is 15 different, the small one, your Honor. This is 16 different. There's two of these. I just made extra 17 copies is all. 18 THE COURT: Okay. What I have right here, Text 19 Fragments, is the same as this. That's what I just 20 gave him a copy of. I'll keep a copy of it. For 21 what, I don't know. I'll just go through it and 22 see. 23 You may have these back. 24 Those have been turned over, pursuant to 25 what -- 37 1 MR. MOXON: And this smaller -- 2 THE COURT: This smaller packet. 3 MR. MOXON: I only have two of those. 4 THE COURT: Wait a minute now. Let me see. I 5 think here's another one -- 6 Is this it? 7 MR. MOXON: I guess that's both of them. That 8 must be both. 9 Okay. I see that's probably the small one and 10 large. 11 THE COURT: It is? 12 MR. MOXON: Yeah. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's be sure. 14 MR. MOXON: May I? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. MOXON: Yeah. Text Fragments. 17 THE COURT: That look like this? 18 Okay. You've got that, you can take that then. 19 I'm going to give Mr. Dandar a copy of this then. 20 Apparently that's a copy -- 21 And I'll have this. And -- 22 But I believe there are other documents, many 23 other documents that have been turned over. 24 MR. MOXON: There's a large binder, which is 25 just single lines with a name on them, just an 38 1 Internet name, but they're -- those are the 2 documents from which these can be printed out. But 3 it's literally one binder with a listing of 30,000 4 different documents. And I'll give that back. 5 Mr. Keane said, "Look through this. If there's 6 anything else that you feel is appropriate that you 7 want to -- to have the computer expert print off, 8 you can mark it and we'll give it back to the 9 computer fellow." But I haven't done anything with 10 that. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Keane seemed to imply that 12 whatever it was, up till recently, was stuff that 13 probably had very little if anything to do with 14 anything. 15 MR. MOXON: Yeah. 16 THE COURT: But -- for example, he asked -- 17 said you asked him to do a search, or whoever it is 18 that does this -- 19 MR. MOXON: Yeah. 20 THE COURT: -- for anything that had "Ken 21 Dandar," and he said so that would be, then -- I 22 guess. I don't know if this is it or if that's to 23 be forthcoming. 24 MR. MOXON: No, this is it. That's in that 25 huge binder. There were a few that were 39 1 communications from LMT that obviously were cc'ed to 2 Mr. Dandar. Looked very, very suspicious, and 3 appeared to us to be that Mr. Dandar's testimony was 4 inaccurate that he hasn't been coordinating things 5 with LMT. 6 In fact there's -- one of these -- 7 THE COURT: So -- so this little packet right 8 here is the packet that deals with the search for 9 "Mr. Dandar." 10 MR. MOXON: That's all -- 11 THE COURT: So this is it. 12 MR. MOXON: Yeah. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I'll -- I'll take a 14 look at it and see what it is. But they've got it 15 and -- 16 MR. DANDAR: How can -- I can't waive my 17 privilege just because they got it and someone got 18 it -- into the LMT computers by some means without 19 my consent at all. I mean, this -- this thing -- 20 this e-mail they produced this morning with Vaughn 21 Young and I, that was never part of the LMT. Young 22 said he erased it; his wife, who was divorcing him 23 at that time, didn't have access to his hard drive. 24 Yet it shows up mysteriously on an LMT hard drive. 25 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Keane says these hard 40 1 drives showed up mysteriously. All this is coming 2 off of hard drives that mysteriously showed up. 3 From somewhere. He doesn't even know where. 4 MR. DANDAR: But it doesn't give the defense 5 the right to work product even if it -- if it shows 6 up there by a third party. When you see work 7 product from an attorney, you're supposed to stop 8 and turn it back over to the attorney, not keep it, 9 and especially mark it and introduce it as evidence 10 in the case. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that work product, you 12 waived. You should have turned it over back when 13 Mr. Young was deposed in -- in 1999. 14 MR. DANDAR: I don't keep copies of e-mails. 15 And Mr. Young said he erased his hard drive in '98 16 so certainly couldn't produce it. 17 MR. WEINBERG: No, but you can't call it work 18 product. 19 THE COURT: That's true. 20 MR. DANDAR: What's true -- 21 THE COURT: But in any -- 22 MR. DANDAR: -- Judge? 23 THE COURT: Well, what's true is that if you 24 were asked to produce everything you had that you 25 had sent to an expert, you had identified Mr. Young 41 1 as an expert. And had you saved this, then it 2 should have been produced. 3 MR. DANDAR: If I saved it. I don't save 4 e-mails. 5 THE COURT: Well, somebody -- somehow or 6 another they got it. So I don't know how they got 7 it. 8 MR. DANDAR: But the fact -- 9 THE COURT: But they didn't do it -- they got 10 it apparently from Mr. Keane, who was appointed by 11 the court. And now I've told Mr. Keane that he is 12 to stop producing anything that has your name on it, 13 from you or to you. Not -- I mean, he's got a lot 14 of these postings. You know, these postings -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 16 THE COURT: -- all -- whatever. I said I 17 didn't care about any of those postings. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I don't care about postings 19 either. 20 THE COURT: Right. 21 MR. WEINBERG: But -- 22 THE COURT: And I'm not saying I'm not going to 23 turn them all over. What I'm saying is I asked him 24 not to turn them over until I had a chance to look 25 at them. 42 1 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And that's fine with us. 2 But our position is we should get it. 3 Now, one other point. I had handed -- I think 4 you have this, but I've handed this up, which was 5 the letter that Mr. Dandar sent to Mr. Keane, copied 6 to me and Mr. Moxon just 10 days ago. And this is 7 the letter where he instructs Mr. Keane to provide 8 copies, when he's going through these videos of the 9 Lisa McPherson Trust, which is what he's been doing, 10 to provide all the videos of Ken Dandar. 11 So you know, I mean, he can now say that -- 12 that he doesn't understand how Mr. Keane would be 13 turning over videos of Ken Dandar, but -- but he 14 asked Mr. Keane to do this. 15 THE COURT: I -- I can see that. 16 Again, I -- I am concerned, as any judge would 17 be concerned who still has a trial date that is set, 18 when I don't know what's being turned over from a 19 lawyer. And the thing that I saw this morning, yes, 20 perhaps he's a listed witness and perhaps that's one 21 of those things that you should have gotten. Well, 22 I don't know what's in all these other things. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have a problem with you 24 looking -- I mean, I just want to make sure that, A, 25 the record is clear that this isn't something that 43 1 Mr. Keane just invented out of the blue -- 2 THE COURT: Mr. Keane did not invent this out 3 of the blue. I never thought he had. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I know. 5 THE COURT: I thought, for example, that he 6 would probably have been making copies of anything 7 he was turning over. And yet what he indicated is 8 that it was ordered to be turned over. And I think 9 he's probably right. 10 And he says that he has extended to Mr. Dandar 11 and to the church to come -- if it's not privileged, 12 he's going to turn it over. If he doesn't, he's not 13 going to make copies of thousand and thousands of 14 documents to give to both sides. So it's come see 15 if you want it. If you want it -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: And if -- 17 THE COURT: -- I'll make you a copy of it. 18 So you're going to have to go do that. 19 Now, he said he understood since these were at 20 issue, he went ahead and made copies, so -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: And did -- I'm sorry, your 22 Honor. If the videos aren't privileged -- I mean, I 23 don't know what's on the videos either. But it's 24 curious that Mark Bunker, who is not a trial 25 consultant or an employee of Mr. Dandar, would have 44 1 video of Mr. Dandar wherever it is at the LMT. You 2 know, I can't remember what you said -- I don't 3 think you even said what the -- what the videos of 4 Mr. Dandar were. 5 THE COURT: No, I didn't. 6 MR. WEINBERG: But to the extent that those 7 videos indicate that Mr. Dandar was doing that which 8 he testified under oath that he wasn't doing, then, 9 you know, I think that they're very relevant. 10 THE COURT: I think most of them were -- well, 11 we'll go through those in a minute. But I think 12 most of them were -- were Lisa McPherson vigils, 13 slash, pickets, whatever. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if he was picketing -- if 15 there were pictures of him picketing, that would 16 obviously be, given his testimony, very relevant. 17 MR. DANDAR: I'd love to see it too, because I 18 know they were just vigils. 19 THE COURT: The truth of the matter is, 20 Mr. Dandar -- the truth of the matter is, a lawyer 21 for the estate of Lisa McPherson ought not have been 22 to -- been at anything that could have even closely 23 been called a picket. You like to say they're a 24 vigil. 25 MR. DANDAR: They are. 45 1 THE COURT: There are plenty of other people in 2 this courtroom who have called them pickets. As a 3 lawyer, I would expect you to stay away from 4 something that might later be called a picket where 5 a lawyer is present. It is in very poor taste. 6 So there you have it. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: Now you have this. If you have any 9 objection to them using any of it, you better read 10 these tonight. You know, you all send me home with 11 stacks and stacks and stacks of stuff to read that I 12 read until all hours of the morning. So you've got 13 until tomorrow morning to tell them what you object 14 to their using out of this, and to tell me. 15 Otherwise they've got it, you've got it, I've got 16 it, they can use it, you're on notice of it, and 17 they'll use it wherever they think it has relevance. 18 If you have an objection to it, let me know. 19 We'll deal with it. If I think that they shouldn't 20 have it, I'll ask for it back. That's the best I 21 can do. 22 MR. WEINBERG: It's not inappropriate for me to 23 review them as well, tonight. 24 THE COURT: Oh, absolutely not. 25 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I just wanted to 46 1 make sure. Because I have not looked at them. 2 THE COURT: No. You know, I just hope, as an 3 officer of the court, if you start to read something 4 that looks like it has to do with just the Lisa 5 McPherson wrongful death case and it's talking about 6 his theory and how he plans to prove something -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if it's an e-mail to 8 Teresa Summers or something like that, you know, 9 who's a witness in the case, and he's already 10 testified that there was no such communication, then 11 I would -- 12 THE COURT: If it's an e-mail to one of his 13 consultants I would hope that you would put it down 14 until such time as I have a chance to tell you 15 whether you can have it or not. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Okay. 17 THE COURT: Now, then, I suppose since we've 18 talked about these things -- 19 Madam Clerk, I'm going to make this an exhibit. 20 This is not an exhibit to -- this really isn't even 21 a part of this hearing. Well, I suppose it could 22 be. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I'll just make it a court 24 exhibit, you know, like you've been doing. 25 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to make this 47 1 letter from Dandar and Dandar to Mr. Keane and this 2 letter from Mr. Moxon to Mr. Keane a court's 3 exhibit. 4 I'm going to eventually give you, Madam Clerk, 5 a copy of these Text Fragments, that, in the 6 meantime, I'll try to read them tonight. And I'll 7 keep them until such time as I see if there's any 8 objection, okay? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 10 THE COURT: This other packet -- I don't even 11 know what it is, but I will look through it too. If 12 I have the time. You know, there are just so many 13 hours in the day. And if I have the time I'll look 14 through it. If I won't -- don't, I'll look through 15 whatever it is you ask me to look through tomorrow 16 morning. 17 Now, this latest -- this is -- the latest thing 18 that has been provided to me is an order by Judge 19 Quesada, dated November 20th of 2000. If you tell 20 me that there's some later order by Judge Beach, you 21 better get it and you better provide it to me. 22 MR. DANDAR: I will. 23 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, this is another part 24 of the court's exhibit. Otherwise I will assume 25 that that is the order, the latest order, the one 48 1 that we're dealing with. I don't want either side 2 suggesting to Mr. Keane anybody else that they think 3 perhaps should have been on the list now or later. 4 Everybody understand that? 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: If there's going to be anybody else 8 requested to Mr. Keane by anybody that you all think 9 might be a witness, you ask me and I'll tell 10 Mr. Keane whether that's appropriate. 11 Did I give you this, Madam Clerk? I think I 12 did. Did I give you that? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want the orders that led 14 up to that last order or not? 15 THE COURT: No. I really think the latest 16 order -- because I remember they kept getting 17 changed a little bit. 18 MR. WEINBERG: All right. And I have copies of 19 them if you want. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, maybe go ahead and put 21 them all in. 22 MR. WEINBERG: This is May 15th, 2000 Judge 23 Moody order, and this is a July 18th, 2000 Judge 24 Moody order. 25 THE COURT: I think one of the things that 49 1 concerns me, one of the things that I saw happening 2 in this case, is that I would see -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Those are the other two that 4 lead up to the last -- the one on top was the 5 earliest, I think. 6 THE COURT: I'm just going to have the clerk 7 put them in order. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 9 THE COURT: Put them in chronological order. 10 What you can't do is make somebody a witness by 11 adding them to your witness list. Both sides 12 understand that? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 14 THE COURT: You can't just say, "Gee, I wish -- 15 you know, this person isn't really a witness, and if 16 they were a witness, they'd be a witness for the 17 other side, but maybe I can get some information 18 here by adding them to my witness list, and I think 19 I'll do that, and then tell Mr. Keane to give me 20 that information." Don't do it. That isn't fair. 21 That isn't what this was all meant to be. 22 Okay. Now, on these videos, I've gone 23 through -- Mr. Keane tells me he's going to give me 24 an amended list, because they're not all here. He 25 found 39 more. 50 1 I have gone through this document until some 2 ungodly hour this morning. I have no idea how many 3 pages this is. 25, maybe? I'm just guessing -- and 4 wrote down "yes" or "no" as far as what should be 5 produced based on what I presume the order was. And 6 when in doubt, I left it blank. And that's what I 7 spoke with the lawyers about, including counsel for 8 LMT and counsel -- it was the same counsel -- for 9 the videographer. His name is -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Bunker. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Bunker. And so he was present 12 as well. I think he was. 13 And I filled in all these blanks. So I have 14 all these blanks filled in. 15 And Mr. Dandar, that was when we first began. 16 He said he didn't know that any video was going to 17 be produced that he was in. And now, Mr. Dandar, I 18 see your letter which tells me that clearly isn't 19 true. 20 MR. DANDAR: No. Judge, I asked him to give me 21 a copy of any video that I'm in. I didn't ask him 22 to send it to the defense. I mean, I don't have 23 possession of these videos. I don't know what the 24 LMT has. So that's why I asked Mr. Keane to send me 25 a video if I'm in -- if it's a video of me or of my 51 1 clients. 2 THE COURT: Well, I thought the court had given 3 him those videos, and the court had said -- what you 4 just talked -- you know -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that doesn't make any 6 sense -- 7 THE COURT: No, it doesn't make a bit of sense. 8 MR. WEINBERG: -- to send him also copies of 9 Teresa Summers, Jesse Prince and, you know, four 10 others witnesses so you were going to get copies of 11 those and we weren't going to get them. 12 MR. DANDAR: No. Oh. Let me make it very 13 clear. I'm asking -- that letter says, "Send me the 14 copy of all the videos of all these people, 15 including myself." I expect, as the court orders in 16 writing say, they're only entitled to get witnesses. 17 That's all they're entitled to. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 19 MR. DANDAR: I'm not a witness, but I wanted 20 Mr. -- 21 THE COURT: Oh, you are a witness to the 22 counterclaim. Don't kid yourself. You're a major 23 witness. And that's why I indicated to you you 24 could not be a lawyer on the counterclaim. You are 25 a major witness in the counterclaim, Mr. Dandar. 52 1 And that's what most of this is all about. So you 2 know, quite frankly, to suggest that you're not a 3 witness is amazing to me. You are not a witness, it 4 is true, in the wrongful death case. You are a 5 major witness in the counterclaim. 6 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 7 THE COURT: So -- and for some of these things, 8 obviously, they weren't -- it wasn't distinguished 9 as to whether or not it had to do with the wrongful 10 death or whether it had to do with the counterclaim. 11 So I'm going to look through here and have you 12 tell me, Mr. Dandar, on any of these that I've got, 13 that I'm going to produce where you're in them, 14 which I believe is every one that you were in, 15 because you were on this list that Mr. Keane had 16 attached, which I assumed everybody had agreed to 17 and which he says he thought everybody did agree to. 18 And I want you to go back to your office 19 tonight and I want you to see whether or not you 20 have that letter. 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. We -- we are -- we called 22 the office to look for it right now, but I will go 23 back and make sure. 24 THE COURT: All right. I hate to take the time 25 to do this, but I just -- if I don't, it'll just be 53 1 one more thing piled on top of another thing. So 2 I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it now. 3 Ms. Giardini, by the way, is one of the ones 4 whose videotapes you asked for, and she is not 5 listed as a witness. 6 MR. DANDAR: That's right. I did. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I think she's on Mr. Dandar's 8 witness list. 9 THE COURT: She is not on Exhibit A. 10 MR. WEINBERG: No, she's not -- 11 THE COURT: The one that you agreed to. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Right, but I mean in the letter, 13 he asked Mr. Keane to send him a copy of all the 14 videos on her. 15 THE COURT: I have already told him, and I 16 presume that you all know as well, isn't anybody 17 going to get any of these videos unless I release 18 them. 19 MR. WEINBERG: We absolutely understand that. 20 THE COURT: So I don't care what he's asked for 21 and I don't care what you all have asked for. I'm 22 going to tell you what you're going to get -- 23 And Mr. Dandar, this is one of those other 24 things. I'm going to -- Ms. Giardini's videos -- 25 isn't a witness listed on this exhibit list. 54 1 Therefore I did not order any videos that had her in 2 it released. 3 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. 4 THE COURT: So you don't get them. 5 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. That's fine, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Because I'm working -- and please 7 understand this, people -- I am working off this 8 list that Michael Keane says you all agreed to. So 9 that's the list. Not some -- I don't want to hear 10 later, "Oh, well, look, they're on this witness list 11 because that's what Mr. Keane said." There was a 12 huge bunch of witnesses. You all culled it down and 13 came up with this, and that's the list I'm operating 14 under. Which, of course, this list includes you, 15 Mr. Dandar, and your brother and your investigator. 16 I'm looking for a second time because I don't 17 want to miss anything here. 18 All I'm looking for are videos now -- 19 I made a decision on every one of these, and 20 I'm going -- and every one that had you in it, 21 Mr. Dandar, I ordered turned over, I think. So I'm 22 going to tell you what those are so you can tell me 23 if you have an objection. Like I said, I thought 24 there were about five. We'll see how close I was. 25 I guess what you want me to do, probably, based 55 1 on some of what we talked about in chambers, is -- 2 is to have Mr. Keane reproduce, if he can, those 3 which I have ordered released. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 5 THE COURT: And with this little synopsis -- 6 because I'm looking at like eight in a row, news 7 clips, you know, Channel 13 news clip -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 9 THE COURT: -- Channel 13 news clip; ABC, 28 -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: And I suspect we don't want any 11 of those copied, but if you are able to do a 12 redacted list that takes out what you don't want us 13 to look at -- 14 THE COURT: Right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: -- that would helpful -- that 16 would be helpful to -- 17 THE COURT: Well, I'm hoping that this is on a 18 computer and he knows how to do that -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: I think it is. 20 THE COURT: -- and he would be able to do it. 21 I have no clue. 22 Okay. Now here is the first one. And it is 23 box 2, tape 6, December, 1999, Clearwater, Florida. 24 Synopsis -- under Synopsis -- by the way, 25 Clearwater, Florida, is the locale. And it's got 56 1 one, two, three, five columns. First column is tape 2 number. Second column is time frame. Third column 3 locale. Fourth column, synopsis. And then fifth 4 column, people identified in footage. 5 This is, again, box 2 tape, 6 December, 1999, 6 Clearwater, Florida. The synopsis says, "Cult 7 Workshop." And here's who's identified. People 8 identified in footage: Gabe Cazares, Grady Ward, 9 Ken Dandar, Jesse Prince, Steve Hassan, Jeff 10 Jacobsen, Gerry Armstrong, Peter Alexander, David 11 Cecere, Deana Holmes, Michael Garko, Velma Cazares, 12 Brian Haney, Ed Lottick and Stacy and Jay Brooks. 13 I don't know who Jay Brooks is, but -- 14 THE WITNESS: That's her mother. 15 THE COURT: And Jay Brooks -- now there are a 16 lot of people who are witnesses. I had "release" on 17 it. 18 MR. DANDAR: This is a -- as I remember, was a 19 workshop that was private and was not open to the 20 public. Scientology was having a workshop right 21 next door. And you know, that would be a workshop 22 that remained private. And I don't think the 23 defense should have that. 24 THE COURT: Well, some judge apparently said 25 that they were entitled to statements of any 57 1 witnesses. And so these are witnesses. There are a 2 lot of witnesses in there. 3 The only question is as to whether or not -- 4 I'll tell you what. I'll view this to see what 5 it is that you would have said in there. 6 But -- but the truth of the matter is -- is 7 that -- I don't know what you're doing there, but -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: And just for the record, there's 9 obviously no privilege. 10 THE COURT: No. There could be no privilege. 11 MR. DANDAR: I believe the group -- the group 12 could have a privacy privilege, Judge. 13 THE COURT: I'm -- we're past that. A judge 14 has ordered it released. 15 MR. DANDAR: No, no. The witness statements, I 16 understand. I understand that. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Well, these are statements 18 of these witnesses. Presumably. 19 MR. DANDAR: And I will find Judge Beach's 20 order, which I believe limits it to discussing the 21 Lisa McPherson case. 22 THE COURT: Well, if you can find that, then 23 there's probably a lot of these that I'm going to 24 release, that, you know, wouldn't be relevant. 25 I think you all decided that any of this stuff 58 1 that dealt with the -- the trial in front of Judge 2 Penick, you did not want, right? 3 MR. WEINBERG: We don't want that. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Any -- 6 THE COURT: Here's one, Lisa McPherson Memorial 7 picket in front of the Ft. Harrison. You see, 8 here's a general master. You see what he's calling 9 this? A memorial picket. 10 MR. DANDAR: It may in fact be a picket. There 11 was a picket in the daytime. 12 THE COURT: Well, if it is, it's got Mr. Dandar 13 in it. 14 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's -- 15 THE COURT: So the deal is -- like I told you, 16 Mr. Dandar, it was poor judgment. So I don't know 17 what in the world -- why you wouldn't -- why you 18 would have an objection to that. That's a picket. 19 A picket is done out in the community so people can 20 see you. 21 MR. DANDAR: I have no -- 22 THE COURT: If it's a -- 23 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 24 THE COURT: All right. Then that one will be 25 turned over. 59 1 MR. DANDAR: What box and tape number, please? 2 THE COURT: Box 2, tape 12. It says December, 3 2000, Clearwater, Florida. The synopsis, "Lisa 4 McPherson Memorial Picket in front of the Ft. 5 Harrison." And it's got more people in it than you 6 can shake a stick at, including you, including 7 Mr. Garko, John Merrett, Patricia Greenway, Peter 8 Alexander, on and on. Arnie Lerma, Robert Minton, 9 Ben Shaw, Frank Oliver, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, 10 Jeff Jacobsen, Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson, Lee 11 Skelton, Rod Keller -- there's a whole bunch that I 12 haven't read. I mean, there's just a lot of people. 13 But pickets, I'm turning over, people who 14 picket want people to see them. So they can't very 15 well complain now. 16 Here is one that is styled box 2, tape 16, 17 unidentified. That's the time frame. Clearwater, 18 Florida. Synopsis, "Celebrating the purchase of LMT 19 building; picketing." And it's got the semicolon in 20 between "building" and "picketing." 21 Robert Minton, Scott Grouer, Ken Dandar, 22 Michael Garko, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, Dee 23 Phillips, Ray Emmons, Peter Alexander, Patricia 24 Greenway, Grady Ward, Deneen Phillips, Duncan 25 Pierce, Mike Rinder -- I don't know whether that's 60 1 the Mike Rinder that we've referred to here, because 2 it's R-e-n-d-e-r, so -- and Paul Kellerhals. 3 MR. DANDAR: I think they were outside. 4 THE COURT: Okay. So you -- you have no 5 problem with that. 6 MR. DANDAR: No problem. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. Would you repeat the 9 tape and box number? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Box 2 -- 11 THE COURT: -- tape 16. 12 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 13 THE COURT: Sir, if you want to get off the 14 stand while we're just fooling with this, you're 15 welcome to. You don't have to sit there. You can 16 if you want to but you don't have to. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm settled now, your 18 Honor. 19 THE COURT: Okay. You -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: As you're going through that 21 list, we're not interested in any of those, whether 22 it's Judge Penick -- or I forget all the other 23 judges. We're not interested in any of those -- 24 THE COURT: All I'm trying to do is in my list 25 release or not. So the only ones -- 61 1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 2 THE COURT: So if I put "release" -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Just leave it the way it is. 4 THE COURT: Right. 5 MR. WEINBERG: If we get -- 6 THE COURT: There are a few I had blank you and 7 I had a chance to talk about, and you and I and 8 Mr. Dandar and -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. McGowan. 10 THE COURT: -- and Mr. McGowan. But the ones 11 that I said "release --" 12 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 13 THE COURT: I'll have them give them to you. 14 I don't remember what we decided to do with 15 this interview with former Clearwater Police 16 lieutenant Ray Emmons. I have a question mark. Did 17 we decide a question mark -- I didn't put question 18 marks when I went through these. So what did we 19 decide on these? 20 MR. DANDAR: He's not a testifying witness. He 21 was a private investigator for LMT, and sometimes he 22 served process for me. And I'm sure that has to do 23 with his investigation of Scientology back in the 24 '80s. They want that, they can have it. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 62 1 THE COURT: You want it? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, your Honor. 3 MR. FUGATE: I think it was included in an 4 LMT-produced video about the Clearwater Police 5 Department, if that's the one I'm thinking it is, 6 Judge. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 Oh, here's one I almost missed it. This is 9 scenes from -- this is box 2, tape 52, which appears 10 to be a very -- there's a lot of stuff going on in 11 this. It says, "Scenes from outside the courtroom 12 in the Lisa McPherson probate hearing," and, "Scenes 13 from LMT," and, "Picketing the Church of 14 Scientology." That's got Patricia Greenway, Robert 15 Minton, Peter Alexander, Grady Ward, Paul 16 Kellerhals, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, Al Butnor, 17 Al Rosen, Marty Rathbun and Ken Dandar. 18 Any objection? 19 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 20 THE COURT: Okay. The next one, same box, same 21 tape, date February, 2000, Clearwater, Florida, "In 22 and around courthouse before and after the TRO 23 hearing." Then back to LMT for more picketing. 24 Robert Minton, Stacy Brooks, David Cecere, Jesse 25 Prince, Mike Rinder, Wally Pope, Bruce Howie, Ken 63 1 Dandar, Michael Garko, Dennis DeVlaming, Patricia 2 Greenway and on and on. 3 Any objection? 4 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: What tape number is that? 7 THE COURT: Tape 52, box 2. It's the same tape 8 as the other one. 9 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 10 THE COURT: It's all on that one tape. 11 MR. DANDAR: All right. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Box 2, tape 54. Clearwater, 13 Florida, April, 2000, "Outside courthouse after 14 hearing before Judge Schaeffer". Then back to LMT 15 for picketing." That must have been the criminal 16 case. 17 MR. WEINBERG: April, 2000 sounds right. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Patricia Greenway, Mike 19 Rinder. Must be Mike Rinder. It's got R-e-n-d-e-r, 20 but it must -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: It's actually "I", but it's -- 22 THE COURT: Yeah. 23 Patricia Greenway, Mike Rinder, Richard Howd, 24 Ken Dandar, Michael Dandar, Ray Emmons, Stacy 25 Brooks. 64 1 Any objection? 2 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 3 THE COURT: All right. All of those, by the 4 way, I had "release" On them. 5 Here's another one, January, 2000, "Inside LMT 6 and picketing the Church of Scientology." Antonio 7 Avila, Phillip Deller, Patricia Greenway, Robert 8 Minton, Grady Ward, David Cecere, Peter Alexander, 9 Paul Kellerhals, Stacy Brooks, Al Butnor, Jesse 10 Prince, Ken Dandar and Michael Garko. 11 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. DANDAR: Tape number? 14 THE COURT: Box 2, tape 55. Date, January, 15 2000, Clearwater, Florida. 16 Oh, this goes on and on and on. 17 All right. Here we have one, Clearwater, 18 Florida. This is a transit board hearing on 19 ante-Church of Scientology ads on the bus. That's 20 advertisements. 21 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 22 MR. WEINBERG: You had already said -- we had 23 already talked about that back there. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Turning that over. 65 1 MR. DANDAR: What tape number is that? 2 THE COURT: Box 2, tape 61. 3 MR. DANDAR: And I should point out that tape 4 has nothing to do with the LMT or this case. 5 THE COURT: That is true. However, those are 6 witnesses, and I take it those are statements of 7 witnesses. 8 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Here is one, box 2, tape 71, 10 "Early 2001, Clearwater, Florida. Raw unedited 11 footage of the LMT offices and outside the Ft. 12 Harrison." Robert Minton, Stacy Brooks, John -- I 13 think it's supposed to be Merrett -- Anita -- I'm 14 not sure. It's M-e-r-r-i-r-r. I don't know who 15 that is, but it might be -- supposed to be Merrett. 16 And Anita Gogola, Randy Ennerson, Heather Bennett, 17 Jesse Prince, Tory Bezazian, Ken Dandar, Michael 18 Garko, Bob Peterson, Arnie Lerma, Ingrid Wagner, Dee 19 Phillips, Jeff Jacobsen, Greg and Debra Barnes. 20 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to see that. I'd like to 21 see what -- it says, "Raw LMT offices." That's not 22 an outside picket. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it says, "Outside the Ft. 24 Harrison." 25 THE COURT: "Outside the Ft. Harrison." 66 1 So I'll view it and I'll see what it is. 2 I think we're past my guess at five. 3 Who's Paul Kellerhals? 4 MR. WEINBERG: He's the head of security -- 5 THE COURT: Security at the church. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Security at the church. 7 MR. DANDAR: Stacy's former husband. Stacy 8 Brooks' former husband. 9 MR. WEINBERG: As irrelevant as that is. 10 MR. DANDAR: That's who he is. 11 THE COURT: Well, here's one with Mary Jo 12 Melone, whom I see we welcome welcomed back to the 13 St. Pete Times today. She's been ill, as I recall. 14 Anyway, this has Mr. Dandar -- says, "Footage of 15 panel discussions, interviews and picketing during 16 the week of the Lisa McPherson Memorial Picket." 17 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. WEINBERG: And just for the record, that 20 was box what? 21 THE COURT: Box 2, tape 73. It says, 22 "December, '99." 23 MR. DANDAR: Does that say Mary J. Melone was 24 there? 25 THE COURT: Well, her name -- her face 67 1 apparently is somebody they identified in the 2 footage. 3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 4 THE COURT: Mary Jo Melone. 5 MR. DANDAR: Melone, yes. 6 THE COURT: Also Dell Liebreich, Ken Dandar, 7 Michael Garko -- lots of people. I mean, this is 8 another one of those great big boxes with lots of 9 folks. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. 11 THE COURT: Here's one with Mr. Moxon in it. 12 And Mr. Dandar. 13 Okay. Box 2, tape 102, "Summer, 2000, 14 Clearwater, Florida. Footage from Ursula Caberta's 15 visit to Clearwater for her press conference." It's 16 got Ursula Caberta, Al Butnar, Robert Minton, Stacy 17 Brooks, John Merrett, Gary Armstrong, Mary Demoss, 18 Kendrick Moxon, Grady Ward, Ken Dandar, Michael 19 Garko, Ray Emmons, Karen Case and Jesse Prince. 20 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 21 THE COURT: All right. Here's another one with 22 Mr. Rinder and others. That's to be released. 23 But I don't see -- believe it or not, I'm down 24 to the last three pages. 25 Okay. Box 2, tape 128, December, 2000, 68 1 Clearwater, Florida. "Footage shot in and around 2 LMT and the Ft. Harrison during the Lisa McPherson 3 Memorial Picket." Whole slew of people. 4 Mr. Dandar, you're one of them. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. No objection. 6 THE COURT: All right. I believe that's it. 7 As I said, there are approximately one, two, 8 three -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: That's 12. 10 THE COURT: About nine per page, and there's 11 probably on average -- and there's probably 25 pages 12 here. They're not numbered. So there's a lot of 13 tapes. 14 Those are the ones that you appeared in, 15 Mr. Dandar. I believe there's only one or two that 16 you had any objection to. 17 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 18 THE COURT: And I indicated I would view them. 19 MR. DANDAR: All right. 20 MR. WEINBERG: There's only one, I think. Oh, 21 two. Was the first one of them -- there was a first 22 one, which was box 2, tape 6, December of '99, and 23 then there was a second -- then the other one was 24 box 2, tape 71. 25 THE COURT: Right. And I've got a copy others 69 1 here that, on my own, I asked to view, because I 2 didn't know -- one thing or another -- I think we 3 did them during the discussion we had in chambers. 4 Frankly, I don't think we had any disagreement in 5 chambers -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: No, we didn't. 7 THE COURT: -- as to whether to release or not. 8 MR. WEINBERG: We didn't have any argument, no. 9 THE COURT: So eventually I'm going to get this 10 with an order -- when I say eventually, I have to 11 wait, now. Mr. Keane says he's going to get me a 12 substitute. I'll try to put together an order 13 telling him that these can be released, see if he 14 can put the ones that are going to be released in a 15 format so that you all can see them, and -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: And then we can communicate with 17 him after we see your list and say which ones we 18 want copied. 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. WEINBERG: And we can do that directly with 21 him. 22 THE COURT: With him. 23 As far as I'm concerned, this is a situation 24 where I'm going to put out a list or he's going put 25 out a list of all the ones I've ordered to be 70 1 released. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 3 THE COURT: If you want them all, you can get 4 them all. If you only want two -- Mr. Dandar, the 5 same is true for you. If you want them all, you can 6 get them all. If you want one or two of them, you 7 can get what you want. 8 And I don't know how that works. I don't know 9 who's paying. I don't think I want to know. 10 But in other words, you don't have -- just 11 because I said, "Release them," doesn't mean that 12 you have to copy them. 13 MR. WEINBERG: No. We understand that. 14 And I -- is this something that we will be able 15 to have access to during our break? I mean, when I 16 say break, during the two weeks break that you're 17 going to be gone? 18 THE COURT: If I can get it done. I'm going to 19 try real hard -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 21 THE COURT: -- okay? 22 Okay. Go ahead and continue. 23 A I hadn't quite finished answering the last 24 question. 25 71 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Do you remember what it was? 3 A Yes. The last question was what were my 4 responsibilities as deputy inspector general -- 5 Q Yes? 6 A -- at RTC. 7 And I mentioned we used to do the technology side 8 of Scientology. 9 Then there was a separate area, areas that I also 10 had responsibility for. And those were the legal 11 intelligence and PR activities of OSA, which is a separate 12 network in Scientology. And I had the responsibility of 13 also registering, getting trademarks registered in the 14 different countries of the world where Scientology was -- 15 had activity. 16 Q Okay. So what did you have to do with legal and 17 intelligence departments of OSA? 18 A In the -- in the beginning, not very much, because 19 it was nothing that I really knew anything about. This was 20 something that I learned as part of this -- this job 21 activity. So I would -- I was privy to the activities of 22 those areas as I learned the strategies for those areas. 23 Q Would you receive reports from OSA? 24 A Yes. I would receive a report. Every 25 executive -- well, not every -- I shouldn't say every 72 1 executive, but the top executives in Scientology were kept 2 abreast of the different operations in intelligence, legal 3 and PR, by -- at the end of the night -- just before the end 4 of the night, I would receive an envelope that said "Eyes 5 only." And inside the envelope there would be typewritten 6 pages, maybe seven or eight typewritten pages, that gave a 7 summary of the different operations that legal, PR and 8 intelligence were involved in. And after reading that 9 information, it was shred -- something that had to be 10 shredded instantly. 11 Q It wasn't stored somewhere? 12 A No. 13 Q When you say legal operations, what are you 14 talking about? 15 A Legal cases. 16 THE COURT: Did you get this every day, you 17 say? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Every day we get -- 19 THE COURT: How -- in those days -- I don't 20 know. There was no e-mail. How did you get it? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this isn't 22 information that -- in an envelope, typed on, 23 obviously, a -- 24 THE COURT: I mean, if you're in Los Angeles, 25 and Flag down here in Clearwater wants to send you 73 1 something at the end of the day, how did they get it 2 from Clearwater to you? 3 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, no one from 4 Clearwater would have sent me anything, because 5 there's a chain of command. There are channels. In 6 other words, executives in Scientology aren't 7 accessible to staff members of lower organizations 8 or things like this. You have to go through a chain 9 of command in order to have correspondence with an 10 executive, or be asking for a specific privilege 11 from that executive, after having gone through the 12 channels. 13 THE COURT: Okay. But somebody -- if -- you 14 got seven or eight pages from somebody -- 15 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. This was brought -- 16 brought around from a person in the intelligence 17 area, and they would simply come in, drop the 18 envelope on the desk and leave. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Whoever it is that would 20 bring that envelope to you, from wherever it is, how 21 was it that they got the information, for example, 22 from Flag on the day's activities? 23 This is really a very simple question. This 24 is: Was it faxed? Was it gotten there by 25 horseback? I mean, how did they get it from Flag in 74 1 Clearwater up the line to whoever it is that dropped 2 it off on your desk? Just physically. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, there could have been 4 several ways that the information could have been 5 passed along. It could have been passed along from 6 telephonic communications; it could have been passed 7 along via the computer. 8 At that time, when -- the time that I'm 9 speaking about there was no, quote/unquote, real 10 Internet, but Scientology had its own computer 11 messaging systems where we could send messages to 12 each other from Europe or from Florida to Los 13 Angeles. So that was a way that information would 14 come in as well. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q And was OSA part of RTC? 18 A No. Not -- not during the time that I was there, 19 OSA was not part of the RTC. During my time period in OSA, 20 OSA was in a very formative stage of being formed, being -- 21 departments figured out, purposes, duties, that kind of 22 thing. 23 Q Was there any carryover from The Guardian's office 24 to OSA? 25 A Yes, there was. The staff -- there were a 75 1 carryover of some of the staff and some of the -- and the 2 policies. 3 Q Now, let's just go back -- you said one of the 4 things you would get daily is a report on legal operations. 5 Is that just in the United States? 6 A Yes. Well, predominantly. But I don't think we 7 had any cases abroad of any real significance outside of the 8 United States during my time period. 9 Q And when you were a deputy inspector general, who 10 was your senior? 11 A The inspector general, which is Vicki Aznaran. 12 Q And who was her senior? 13 A David Miscavige. 14 Q And who was his senior? 15 A L. Ron Hubbard. Pat Broeker. 16 Q And when Mr. Hubbard died, who was Mr. Miscavige's 17 senior? 18 A He had none. 19 Q And when you were deputy inspector general, you 20 were a member of the Sea Org, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Who was the head of the Sea Org? 23 A The captain of the Sea Org was David Miscavige. 24 Q Did he have any equal to his rank? 25 A I'm sure he probably did. 76 1 Q He had other captains? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And would they have equal power as David 4 Miscavige? 5 A No. 6 Q Why not? 7 A Well, again, I'll refer to the organizational 8 chart, the command charts, which is an exhibit in this case. 9 You have a -- a kind of pyramid system of organizations as 10 far as seniority, powers -- broad powers and responsibility. 11 And at the top of the chain is RTC, Religious Technology 12 Center. Below that is CSI, Church of Scientology 13 International, which is the mother church. And then from 14 there you have like a -- what's called a FOLO, Flag Office 15 Liaison Office, which is supposed to be a management center 16 in the different sectors and countries where Scientology has 17 activity. 18 An example of -- of that would be here in 19 Clearwater. You have the Ft. Harrison as one -- the Ft. 20 Harrison Building, or the Flag, which is one organization. 21 And separate from Flag you have another organization called 22 the FLB, the Flag Land Base organization, which, during my 23 period of time, concerned itself with the buildings, the 24 maintenance of the buildings, and then also did the 25 missions, where they would pull Sea Org members to send to 77 1 other areas, train them on specific orders to go out and 2 accomplish different things in the organizations. 3 Q While you were in Scientology, could a Sea Org 4 mission go in and take over a completely independent org 5 like the Boston org? 6 A Well, that -- that was the entire purpose of a 7 mission, to go in an area -- 8 Well, that's not entirely true. There's different 9 types of mission. You could have a mission that would 10 simply go in there and observe -- 11 THE COURT: His question was, could the Sea Org 12 go in and take over? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And what gave it the power to do that? 16 A The Sea Org is the organization that is 17 responsible ultimately for the success of Scientology. The 18 persons that are in the Sea Org have dedicated themselves to 19 Scientology for one billion years, and their dedication is 20 to ensure that Scientology carries on and prevails in the 21 society we live in. 22 Q And you signed a billion-year contract as well, 23 correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Now, the intelligence operations -- 78 1 Well, let's go back to legal operations. Would 2 you receive a report daily of what was going on in each and 3 every case that the Church of Scientology was involved in? 4 A Pretty much, yes. If there was activity, if there 5 was courtroom activity that day, or a motion that was being 6 put together or -- or whatever, I'd receive the report about 7 that. 8 Q So if there was a lawsuit that the Boston org -- 9 I'm sorry. I'm picking on Boston -- the Boston org was a 10 party to and had a lawyer representing them in court, would 11 you receive a daily report on the activity of that lawsuit? 12 A Yes. If there was daily activity on that lawsuit, 13 I would certainly receive information about it. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could we just date 15 from when it started to when it ended, that he was 16 getting this kind of info? 17 THE COURT: I think he was saying during the 18 whole time that he was deputy inspector general. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And I think he hadn't 20 said when that ended. 21 THE COURT: Okay. What was the period of time 22 that you were deputy inspector general? 23 THE WITNESS: I would say from early 1985 until 24 January, 19, 1987. '84. I'd say '84. Early '84. 25 THE COURT: '85 -- early '84 to January of '87. 79 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Now, when you were deputy inspector general of 5 RTC, was Mr. Miscavige the chairman of the board? 6 A No. Mr. Miscavige was the chairman of the board 7 of Author Services. 8 Q Okay. Do you know who the chairman of the board 9 of RTC was at the time you were deputy inspector general? 10 A I later came to find out the chairman of the board 11 of RTC -- it changed a couple of times, to my knowledge, but 12 I think the person who was -- the last person who I knew was 13 actually chairman of the board was David Miscavige. 14 Q Okay. 15 THE COURT: Well, I thought -- let me stop you 16 just for a minute here. I thought you indicated 17 that the chain of command was the deputy inspector 18 general, who was you, reported to the inspector 19 general, who was Vicki Aznaran, who reported to 20 David Miscavige. In what capacity? 21 THE WITNESS: David Miscavige was the chairman 22 of the board of Author Services. Author Services 23 was a literary -- 24 THE COURT: Believe me, I know about Author 25 Services. 80 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. So -- 2 THE COURT: So that -- all I'm trying to find 3 out is the capacity in which David Miscavige was, 4 that Vicki Aznaran reported to, was as chairman of 5 the board of ASI? 6 THE WITNESS: No. He was really captain of the 7 Sea Org. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q How could Vicki Aznaran and RTC, a religious 10 organization, have a senior who's a chairman of the board of 11 a for-profit organization? 12 A Well, that's exactly the point. Being-senior part 13 and -- and giving orders and things from Miscavige to 14 Aznaran wasn't anything that the general Scientology public 15 would know about. This was kind of kept secret, in the same 16 way that Scientology staff members or Scientology public 17 members don't realize that Gilman Hot Springs is the 18 location of international management of Scientology; in that 19 same regard they would not know that Miscavige ultimately 20 would be the seniors of a person such as myself, Vicki 21 Aznaran and that kind of thing. 22 Or we couldn't have that -- it couldn't be clear 23 that -- that that was the case because that presented 24 problems with the tax -- we're trying to get tax exempt 25 status -- to have a for-profit corporation running a 81 1 nonprofit corporation. 2 But Miscavige was the leader. Was and is the 3 leader. I mean, at the even when L. Ron Hubbard was alive, 4 he would do his communications through Miscavige, that would 5 come to us. 6 Q Okay. And so was -- was Miscavige, Vicki Aznaran 7 senior -- and I think you already answered -- COB of ASI as 8 captain of the Sea Org? 9 A As captain of the Sea Org. 10 Q Now, the intelligence reports that you would get 11 daily, what kind of intelligence reports would you get? 12 A Ones that I remember specifically at this time had 13 to do with different activities in the Wollersheim case, 14 whether it be Wollersheim 3, 4 or whatever; you know, what 15 was happening with the lawyers, what was overheard, what was 16 planned, what kind of information was coming up during 17 what's called a ODC and CDC. ODC being overt data 18 collection. They would collect information about the 19 attorney, his -- you know, his record. They would do an 20 ODC. And then a CDC. And a CDC mainly entailed getting 21 information that is not readily available or is public 22 knowledge, such as personal phone records; a credit report, 23 bank reports, an individual's bank reports, this kind of 24 thing. 25 Q How did OSA get an opposing counsel's bank 82 1 reports? 2 A Hiring a private investigator. 3 Q And how did the private investigator get an 4 attorney's private bank records? 5 A This is something that they were hired to do. It 6 was -- it was very much shunned that we know specifically 7 how that happened in case it ever went to court or the 8 person was ever caught. So it was just, "Hey, we need this. 9 We need a credit report on this person. We need his phone 10 records. We need to know who he's talking about, who he's 11 talking with," and to do an analysis to find this person's 12 weakness. What is the Achilles' Heel? What is going to get 13 this person to stop giving grief to Scientology even if -- 14 in a professional capacity as an attorney. 15 And then, you know, pursue those things that will 16 intimidate, harass or discourage. 17 Q And why -- what gave you, as a member of the 18 Church of Scientology, the authority to do that, under 19 the -- under the rules and regulations or the policies of 20 the Church of Scientology? 21 A I've seen many exhibits turned into this courtroom 22 concerning policies on intelligence and attitude. And I 23 guess the overriding factor is this: Scientology comes 24 first. Scientology comes before the individual, comes 25 before the individual's family, comes before our current 83 1 justice system or whatever laws. Scientology -- I mean, 2 it's even a high crime to speak at -- in Scientology's laws, 3 it's a high crime to come before a court and give testimony 4 without first Scientology being -- knowing completely what 5 your testimony would be, even if it had nothing to do with 6 Scientology. 7 So they have different rules and a different 8 standard to operate on. I mean, you know, is it legal? Is 9 it right? Those are different matters. But that's -- 10 Q Well -- 11 A -- the -- 12 Q -- when you were in this position, reading these 13 intelligence reports, do you know that if you got a credit 14 report of anyone that had not given you written permission 15 to get their credit report, that that was a federal crime? 16 A You know, at the time I did not. I personally did 17 not. Because again, this is an area where I was kind of 18 cutting my teeth on, so I was being walked through it and 19 shown how things worked. 20 Q Who was walking you through it? 21 A Several people. It started out with David 22 Miscavige kind of bringing me in the loop on this kind of 23 thing and showing me. And the person who would normally be 24 involved in these kind of operations would be Marty Rathbun, 25 so I spent time with him, learning about these things. 84 1 And -- and Vicki Aznaran, who had previously had a lot of 2 association in the Guardian's office, which later became 3 OSA. She was very familiar with the pattern and things that 4 they do. And her husband, Rick Aznaran, who was my junior. 5 He was a person that I used for the physical security of -- 6 to ensure the physical security of the Golden Era base of 7 Gilman Hot Springs, which eventually spread to other 8 organizations. But that's another person who had 9 experience. 10 Q Did you ever work with Mr. Moxon? 11 A No. 12 Q Were you gone before Mr. Moxon came on board? 13 A I met Mr. -- no, I was not. I met Mr. Moxon 14 when -- again, I was there in OSA's formative stages when I 15 actually had the responsibility to put a person in command 16 of it, fill personnel in the legal department, the PR 17 department, the intelligence department, establish it as a 18 organization which then would repeat itself in the other 19 minor organizations within Scientology. 20 Q So you established the main OSA departments? 21 A Correct. The main OSA org board. We were there 22 to work on what its organizing board should be, what 23 personnel it should have, what policies it needs to operated 24 on, who it needed to establish lines of communication with. 25 Q Was OSA still Department 20 like the Guardian's 85 1 office was? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did it have the same org board as the Guardian's 4 office? 5 A You know, I couldn't -- in some respects they did, 6 but I don't think totally they did, because -- and this is 7 kind of how I learned it as we went along. The -- the OSA 8 wanted to make sure that they didn't make the same mistakes 9 as the past Guardian's Office did. One of the main mistakes 10 that the Guardian's office made was putting in writing and 11 detailing some of the operations that they did to some of 12 the people that opposed them. An example that is, oh, 13 Paulette Cooper, with, you know, having a person inside with 14 her to affect her in certain ways, you know, and then the 15 next thing you know -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to competence. 17 Because he's talking about something that he wasn't 18 part of, that supposedly happened in the early '70s 19 and it can only be based on hearsay. 20 THE COURT: Well, what does it have to do with 21 this hearing? 22 MR. DANDAR: It has to do with our defense of 23 extortion against Mr. Minton and the fair game of 24 Mr. Minton causing him to come to this court and 25 lie. 86 1 THE COURT: Okay. And what -- who is this 2 woman? 3 MR. DANDAR: Paulette Cooper. 4 THE COURT: And how did you find out about 5 Paulette Cooper, since Mr. Weinberg objected? 6 THE WITNESS: I was briefed about it, and I 7 remember her specifically. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, hold on. That's my 9 objection. This is just pure unmitigated hearsay. 10 MR. DANDAR: Not when it comes from a corporate 11 client. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, wait a minute. He was 13 only in this position for -- whatever he said -- '85 14 to early '87. And if I understand this, he's now 15 going to recount some supposed incident that 16 happened in the early '70s before he was even part 17 of -- 18 THE COURT: Within -- within the organization 19 to which he was the higher echelon person. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, RTC didn't even exist back 21 in the early '70s when this supposedly occurred. 22 MR. DANDAR: But Department 20 did. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Could I -- 24 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 25 THE COURT: You can, but your objection's going 87 1 to be overruled. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, I'm just making a 3 record. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q How did you find out about Paulette Cooper? 7 A In 1977, when the FBI raided Scientology 8 headquarters in Los Angeles, they broke into a department 9 called B1, and they removed a lot of files. 10 Q Scientology department? 11 A A Scientology department. It was their 12 intelligence branch. 13 One of the problems on the files which led certain 14 people to go to jail -- I guess 11 people went to jail over 15 this -- was the fact that every operation, including the 16 operation like the LSD in her toothpaste -- put LSD in her 17 toothpaste to make it seem like she's insane, or to lift her 18 fingerprints off a glass and put it on a bomb threat, which 19 she was eventually being prosecuted over -- I mean, these 20 things were written in detail of exactly how to do it. And 21 it said on the top who it went to, who approved the program, 22 who executed the program. In other words, details which 23 later came back to bite them severely. 24 So in putting this new OSA, this new branch there, 25 that had similar functions, but were supposed to operate a 88 1 little differently. These reports came. Again, it said, 2 "Eyes only." There was no routing as to who it was going 3 to. There was no author. There were just paragraphs which 4 were just summations of different operations that -- that 5 Scientology were enacted to discourage people who were in 6 lawsuits against it or critical of it. 7 Q And then those -- what you saw was then destroyed 8 in some way? 9 A We were -- we had to shred it immediately. Part 10 of the new policy -- and Vicki Aznaran is one of the people 11 that told me this -- everybody had to had a shred. There 12 were only certain designated people these reports were going 13 to. And we had to verify we shredded the reports. 14 But the reports themselves only contained brief 15 statements of the activities, not who were doing the 16 activities or any details like that. 17 Q Would those activities include picketing, critics? 18 A No. These -- these were different. 19 I -- I'll give you an example of an activity. 20 There was an organization called CAN, called Awareness 21 Network, that Scientology had apparently been fighting for 22 years. I had no knowledge of it myself, but I would receive 23 a report that there was a deep cover in CAN, listening in on 24 the legal process CAN was involved in, lawsuits and spats 25 with Scientology. 89 1 This person would get privileged information -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I object -- 3 A -- report it to -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: I -- 5 THE COURT: Excuse me. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I believe that CAN didn't exist 7 in 1985 through 1987. What's Mr. Prince talking 8 about? 9 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's good cross 10 examination question. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- but then I object to 12 whatever it is: Hearsay, competence. And he's up 13 here talking about some organization that, if I'm 14 correct -- and I think I am correct -- didn't even 15 exist when he was there. How can he be talking 16 about an intelligence operation with regard to it as 17 if -- 18 THE WITNESS: If you'll let me finish -- 19 THE COURT: Well, just a minute. NO, you don't 20 get to talk -- 21 THE WITNESS: Oh. 22 THE COURT: -- until I make a ruling. And we 23 surely do not need help from you. At least, I 24 don't, in making my ruling. 25 Now, when did this occur, Mr. Prince? 90 1 THE WITNESS: The specific example that I'm 2 telling you -- 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 THE WITNESS: -- are things that I've read with 5 my own eyes concerning a group -- it was either CAN 6 or something like CAN -- that Scientology wanted to 7 get rid of. 8 So a person was placed in there, deep cover -- 9 THE COURT: You are so far ahead of me. Don't 10 incur my ire, because it's the afternoon and it's 11 getting close to 4:00, and that's bad for you and 12 everybody else. 13 When did this operation take place, whatever it 14 is you're talking about? When did it occur? 15 THE WITNESS: It was either 1984, 1985, 1986. 16 It would have been somewhere -- 17 I'm giving an example of something that I read 18 within those three years. 19 THE COURT: Okay. And that's when it occurred? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: And you were in the organization? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: And you read it as part of the 24 documents of the organization. 25 THE WITNESS: No. As part of the envelope that 91 1 would come by, like I explained earlier. 2 THE COURT: Oh, and you read it on -- in what 3 was reported to you. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Overruled. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. And I'll cross 7 examine him if it has to do with CAN. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q So they put an undercover person into this 10 organization? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And what was this person doing? 13 A The person was there as a volunteer to assist the 14 executives of the organization, you know, carry out whatever 15 they were doing. And this organization was an organization 16 similar in some ways to the Leo J. Ryan Foundation, in that 17 anyone from anyplace could call, "I think my kid is in a 18 cult. My daughter's in a cult. Can you give me information 19 about it?" It was an organization similar to that. 20 And this person was put in there to divine and be 21 able to turn over to Scientology's legal team information 22 that would give them an advantage in court. 23 Q Okay. Now, besides the reporting of intelligence 24 and legal operations, did you have anything to do with the 25 hiring of law firms? 92 1 A Yes. I hired -- I can't tell you how many 2 different law firms abroad, simply for the purpose of filing 3 trademarks. But in the United States, a law -- well, an 4 attorney that I hired by the name of Joseph Yanni for RTC -- 5 THE COURT: I know this must be relevant, and 6 I'm sure you can tell me, but what -- what is who 7 the law firms were or who was hired -- 8 MR. DANDAR: No. I don't care who the law 9 firms were. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. DANDAR: I just want to know if that was 12 part of his duties. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. WEINBERG: All right. And to the extent 15 that he's going to ask Mr. Prince about his 16 discussions with these law firms, that would be 17 privileged. 18 THE COURT: As to those -- those -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: In particular -- 20 THE COURT: -- matters -- that's right. During 21 the time that he was in the organization. 22 MR. WEINBERG: And I assume Mr. Dandar has not 23 talked to Mr. Prince about if Mr. Prince talked to 24 lawyers for the Church of Scientology about -- 25 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it right now. 93 1 I mean, this is a question-and-answer period. You 2 have an objection, make it. 3 MR. WEINBERG: That was my objection. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q In addition to just hiring the law firms, would 6 you also direct the litigation? 7 A Correct. 8 Q All right. And we're not going to go into details 9 about how you directed the litigation. 10 A Or even participated in the direction of it. You 11 know, maybe not me, "Oh, this is my idea. Therefore we're 12 doing this," but as a group. It was a group of people. It 13 was, you know -- and if there was ever a single decision to 14 be made, it was certainly made by the highest person. But 15 we operated as a group. 16 Q Who was in the group? 17 A It was Mr. David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran, 18 Mark Yeager, Marty Rathbun, Lyman Spurlock, Mark -- 19 THE COURT: It really -- I don't get it yet. 20 Why I do care how they hire a law firm? 21 MR. DANDAR: No. This is how they direct the 22 litigation, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Oh, all right. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q And was the litigation -- 94 1 THE COURT: Well, I hope they do. They hire 2 the law firm, they're supposed to be in charge of 3 the litigation, right? 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Do you leave it up to the lawyers to decide how to 6 run the litigation? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor. Now we 8 are getting into work product as to how it is that 9 the church dealt with their lawyers back in the 10 '80s. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Did the litigation involve RTC, that this group 14 would meet and discuss, or did it involve any organization 15 of Scientology? 16 A In one instance it did involve RTC. In other 17 instances it involved CSE, such as the Wollersheim case. So 18 you know, it would -- depending on the case -- 19 Q Okay. What I'm asking you is it didn't -- it 20 didn't concern crossing over corporate lines and involving 21 litigation involving different corporations. 22 A The -- the persons that I named that concerned 23 themselves with litigation concerned themselves with all 24 Scientology litigation, despite what corporation or 25 whatever. These were the people that dealt with litigation 95 1 for Scientology. 2 Q And there -- was there a head of that group? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who? 5 A David Miscavige. 6 THE COURT: Are you trying to tell me that 7 David Miscavige is running this lawsuit? Is that 8 what you're trying to tell me? 9 MR. DANDAR: Running everything. 10 THE COURT: Well, I mean in particular are you 11 trying to tell me he's running this lawsuit? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Well, why would I care? I mean, 14 why do I care who's running the lawsuit? 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. All right. 16 THE COURT: I mean, this is -- this is a motion 17 to determine whether your case should be dismissed. 18 MR. DANDAR: It's leading up to this question. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You mentioned the Wollersheim case. Can you tell 21 us what activities you personally know about in the 22 Wollersheim case that have anything to do with the 23 destruction of evidence? 24 A Yes, there is. And I -- I've done an affidavit 25 about that, and I'm sure it's filed in this case. 96 1 But there came a point in time where the judge -- 2 as part of a discovery motion, it was ordered that Lawrence 3 Wollersheim's PC folders get turned over. 4 I remember during one of these requests -- and it 5 looked like it was pretty serious that the judge was going 6 to make them turn over these PC folders -- that we had to 7 organize -- myself, Vicki Aznaran and other people had to go 8 through the files and redact them by taking out 9 incriminating information, what was considered to be 10 incriminating information against Scientology or anything 11 that could be misunderstood and could then become 12 incriminating. 13 We went through and we redacted files. And then 14 when defense complained and -- about the files being 15 redacted and the judge ordered the files just simply turned 16 over straight out, those files were destroyed. They were 17 pulped. 18 Q What do you mean by pulped? 19 A They were taken to a paper factory. They were 20 loaded into a -- they were shredded, loaded into a solution 21 and turned into a fiber. 22 THE COURT: Who ordered them destroyed? 23 THE WITNESS: At the time that I destroyed 24 those documents, the order came to me from Vicki 25 Aznaran, who received it from David Miscavige. 97 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Were there -- was this a -- destruction of 3 evidence -- was it pursuant to policy established in the 4 Church of Scientology? 5 A Well, the old overriding policy in Scientology is 6 to protect Scientology; to make it -- you know, protect it 7 in any way and to cultivate it and -- of course, something 8 that would harm it -- 9 THE COURT: Where is that written? I mean, 10 everything here in policy is in a document written 11 down somewhere. Where is it? 12 THE WITNESS: There's a policy letter called 13 Keeping Scientology Working. 14 THE COURT: Okay. And that's in evidence and I 15 have that, so that's -- you're suggesting that is 16 part of the Keeping Scientology Working -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 18 THE COURT: -- policy. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Any other policy besides that one? 21 A Of protecting Scientology, there's Safeguarding 22 Technology. I believe that's a HCO policy letter and a 23 bulletin. There's policies concerning -- 24 Well, I -- that's what readily comes to mind. 25 That's what I mentioned. 98 1 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 2 THE COURT: The relevance of this testimony is 3 because you're going to ask me to believe that 4 Mr. Miscavige directed that the PC folders of Lisa 5 McPherson be destroyed. 6 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Or at least in part be 8 pulped. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Are you familiar with -- 11 THE COURT: Pulped. Destroyed in some fashion. 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Just so the record is clear, we 15 turned over the PC folders. 16 THE COURT: Well, I understand. But he is 17 testifying, and so did they in the Wollersheim case, 18 that they turned over what they wanted to turn over 19 after all the damaging stuff was taken out and 20 pulped. I'm not saying that's true; I'm saying 21 that's the testimony. Maybe it is true. I'm not 22 saying it's not either. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, in this particular case, 24 Mr. Dandar has used the PC folders he believes 25 affirmatively to indicate it supports his case. I 99 1 mean, we turned over volumes of PC folders of Lisa 2 McPherson. 3 THE COURT: I can guarantee you did. If this 4 testimony has any relevance at all, the only 5 relevance it could possibly have is that this 6 witness as an expert is going to tell us that Lisa 7 McPherson's PC folders are not intact. 8 Is that right? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. That was my next question. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q I had you review Lisa McPherson's PC folders, 13 correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And you did that with Stacy Brooks, right? 16 A Correct. In part, yes. 17 Q And did you -- did you find her 1995 -- 18 Well, actually, you looked at -- you did a general 19 review of '95, '94 and '93, correct? 20 A I believe that's correct. I mean, I don't 21 remember. But I certainly did an affidavit that laid out 22 exactly what years I covered and what -- 23 THE COURT: Why don't you let the man have his 24 affidavit while he's testifying? 25 100 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Let me show you the 12-page affidavit dated in 3 this case -- April 4th, 2000 -- 4 A Okay. 5 MR. DANDAR: Next exhibit number. 6 THE COURT: I think this may be in evidence, 7 but maybe not. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think so. 9 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: 108. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Affidavit -- it's your new 108. 12 Is that what it is? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. I -- what did I do -- 14 Oh, Judge, let me give you the clerk's copy. 15 Well, I better give you your copy and I'll give the 16 witness the clerk's copy. Then I'll be left without 17 a copy. 18 Here. Take this one. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 THE COURT: Oh, no. This isn't -- I've never 21 seen this before. 22 MR. WEINBERG: If I'm not mistaken, this is 23 under seal. 24 THE COURT: Well, really, there isn't much 25 under seal -- 101 1 Well, this is part of the PC folders. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I think because of the PC 3 folders. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q First of all, Mr. Prince, you said you were a 6 class 9 auditor in Scientology? 7 A Correct. 8 Q You audit people who are members of the Church of 9 Scientology? 10 A Yes, I have. 11 Q Both staff and public? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Of course, you're not going to tell us what you 14 did in the auditing. I'm not asking that. But who are some 15 of the more famous people you audited? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to that. He 17 shouldn't -- I object to him talking about auditing 18 famous -- quote, famous people. I mean, the 19 St. Pete Times is here. Has nothing to do with the 20 proceeding. If Mr. Prince has audited some famous 21 person, what's that got to do with this proceeding? 22 THE COURT: Well, you know, the truth of this 23 matter is, I remember seeing something in this 24 lawsuit that was filed that said he audited David 25 Miscavige. 102 1 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 2 THE COURT: I think that would have some 3 bearing, that Mr. Miscavige would trust -- or 4 Mr. Miscavige would trust this man to audit the head 5 of the church. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think that's where 7 Mr. Dandar was going. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I think what Mr. Dandar was 10 trying to do was get some famous person's name, who 11 has been audited, much like a priest gave somebody 12 confession, and just put it out there so that we can 13 read about it tomorrow. And I don't think that's 14 appropriate and I don't think it's relevant. 15 THE COURT: Well, you know what I think? That 16 at issue in this particular case is whether 17 Mr. Prince is qualified as an expert, his 18 credentials and everything about it. If he was -- 19 I don't know who picks an auditor, whether he 20 decides who he wants to audit or whether someone 21 hired him -- and there weren't too many when he was 22 there -- made that choice. And if they chose him to 23 do a famous person, I would think that showed they 24 had confidence -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: But isn't that the person's -- I 103 1 mean, talking about what Mr. Dandar talks about -- 2 privacy right, as to -- as to who it was that -- and 3 when it was that he was talking to a minister of the 4 Church of Scientology -- 5 THE COURT: I didn't hear anybody say when and 6 I didn't hear anybody say what they said. What I 7 heard him ask was, who did he audit? I know of no 8 privilege at all -- 9 I mean, are these people not proud to be 10 members of the Church of Scientology? 11 MR. WEINBERG: I think they are, but I think 12 they would prefer that there not be testimony from 13 Mr. Prince, who they don't have a high regard for, 14 you know, at this point, given -- 15 THE COURT: Well -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: -- given what Mr. Prince has 17 done over the last -- whenever it is -- four or five 18 or six years -- 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 MR. WEINBERG: That's my objection. 21 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. 22 A The fact of the matter is -- is as far as 23 Scientology celebrities are concerned, I've never audited 24 one. I've been a case supervisor for them. I've supervised 25 their folders. I've reviewed and ordered corrections on 104 1 their files. But I've never audited any Scientology 2 celebrity. 3 THE COURT: See? Wasn't that a big bunch of 4 hooey over nothing? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I guess my question is, why did 6 he ask the question? 7 THE COURT: I have no idea. But I had to 8 listen a lot longer to him and your objection than I 9 had to listen to him saying no one. 10 MR. WEINBERG: That's true. 11 THE COURT: Is this Number 108, by the way? I 12 can't read your writing. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 14 THE COURT: 105? 108. Okay. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Who are one of the celebrities you case 17 supervised, Mr. Prince? 18 THE COURT: I must need a break because I can 19 tell I'm getting cranky. So we'll be in recess for 20 15 minutes. We'll be in recess. 21 (A recess was taken at 3:30 p.m.) 22 (The proceedings reconvened at 3:46 p.m.) 23 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dandar, continue. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q So as a case supervisor, can you give us a couple 105 1 names of the famous celebrities you case supervised? 2 A I've done case supervision, training exercises, 3 training with John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Karen Black. I 4 don't know. I mean, there isn't a one of them that I 5 haven't, because I specifically ran a project to ensure that 6 the auditing of the celebrities were going well. 7 Q When was this? 8 A This was again during the same time period I 9 mentioned before, from I guess 1983 through '87. 10 Q Did you audited (sic) Mr. Miscavige? 11 A Yes. I was his personal auditor for a while. 12 Q How long? 13 A Maybe a year, year and a half. Maybe a couple of 14 years. 15 Q What couple of years was that? 16 A Oh, I'd say, you know, through '84, '85, I audited 17 him; '86 I audited him. So it's a longer period of time, 18 actually. Maybe three years. 19 Q Okay. Did he have other auditors? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And he selected you and the other auditors or 22 somehow he gets assigned or rotated or anything like that? 23 A I was selected to be his auditor by the senior 24 case supervisor international, Ray Mithoff. 25 Q And were you in RTC at the time? 106 1 A Yes. 2 THE COURT: Senior case supervisor, did you 3 say? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. Yes, your Honor. 5 Senior case supervisor international. 6 THE COURT: Yeah. Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: He would be the highest case 8 supervisor within Scientology. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q And how was your relationship with Mr. Miscavige 12 until you left in '87 -- I'm sorry -- until you left -- you 13 changed your post of deputy inspector general? 14 A Well, shortly after that, there was a big power 15 struggle. And I've also certainly written about that and 16 spoke about that. But there was a power struggle in 1987 17 where I was forcibly removed. However I remained in the Sea 18 Org for five years after that. 19 Q And of course, Mr. Miscavige was the captain of 20 the Sea Org for those five years, correct? 21 A Sure. 22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, at this time I'd like to 23 play a video clip. It's nine minutes long. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. DANDAR: Of Mr. Prince inside Scientology. 107 1 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have a transcript? 2 MR. DANDAR: There's no transcript. 3 This is a copy from a copy from a copy, so it's 4 not the best quality. 5 THE COURT: Do the best you can. 6 MR. DANDAR: Should we dim some lights? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Can we date this? 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Mr. Prince, do you know when this speech was 10 given? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q When? 13 A It was December 31st, 1986. 14 Q Okay. 15 (The videotape, Jesse Prince at New Year's, 1986, 16 was played as follows:) 17 THE COURT: 1996? 18 "-- discuss expansion, legal victories and 19 acknowledge top contributing members. 20 "Thank you. Thank you very much. 21 "Next area we wanted to brief you on were the 22 activities and wins from the Religious Technology 23 Center in 1986. As I'm sure you're all aware, the 24 Religious Technology Center owns the trademarks of 25 Dianetics and Scientology, and their job is really 108 1 to see that Scientology is applied as LRH intended. 2 Keeping Scientology Working. Along with that, they 3 have started new activities, expansion activities at 4 Scientology, opening up new fronts to Scientology, 5 new countries to Scientology, and seeing that not 6 only is the tech applied correctly, but in some 7 instances seeing that it starts being applied for 8 the first time. 9 "The speaker we have this evening has been in 10 the Religious Technology Center for four years. In 11 fact, he's a deputy inspector general. Please 12 welcome Commander Jesse Prince. 13 "Thank you. 14 "Thank you. 15 "Well, good evening. And it's a pleasure to be 16 with you tonight as we welcome in AD37. 17 "I want to brief you on some of the highlights 18 of 1986 as we made some breakthroughs in the areas 19 of terminating and handling squirreling and the 20 expansion of Scientology and keeping Scientology 21 working, which I think you'll all find of interest. 22 "Squirrel groups are by themselves a rather 23 simple thing to handle. As per HCO spec letter of 24 27 September, 1965, Internal dissension is what 25 tears these splinter groups apart, formed by people 109 1 who's overt acts against Scientology prevent case 2 gain. They rapidly rip one another to pieces. So 3 even if one took no action at all because of their 4 own ability to keep ethics in on themselves, these 5 squirrels always disappear. 6 "But the real key to it is to handle any 7 squirrels and squirreling so that they are 8 terminatedly handled. To do that takes a 9 no-nonsense and a nonapologetic attitude about who 10 and what we are, and an unstoppable dedication to 11 the preservation of the technology. 12 "This year, the Religious Technology Center 13 undertook several courses of action designed to shut 14 the door forever on squirreling of any kind, whether 15 it is on the upper-level materials of Scientology, 16 the lower levels, against the copyrights, or even 17 the right to license and control of the trademarks 18 of Dianetics and Scientology. 19 "First, as you may remember, in 1985 we won an 20 order from a federal court in Los Angeles that 21 prevented certain squirrels and psychs from using, 22 copying or even having the noisy materials. 23 "Well, in 1986 we actually took this a step 24 further. This year, the noisy materials were 25 officially copyrighted, and we took this 110 1 breakthrough to the federal court in this lawsuit. 2 We got a green light -- of course, against the 3 squirrels' protest -- to add yet another account to 4 the lawsuit for the squirrels' violations of our 5 copyrights. Now legally this means the squirrels 6 cannot have any unauthorized originals or copies of 7 our upper-level materials at all without being 8 prosecuted under copyright law. And I assure you 9 that any squirrels committing that crime, abusing 10 our materials, will be prosecuted. 11 "You see, we take a very hard line with those 12 few ill-intentioned small thetans that would attempt 13 to pervert our tech, as for them, to see others 14 become, or better more able, threatens their tiny 15 little beingness. It's just that simple. 16 "The reason we take a very hard line in 17 enforcing our trademarks, copyrights and the purity 18 of the tech and its application was very succinctly 19 stated by LRH in Keeping Scientology Working. And I 20 quote, 'The whole agonized future of this planet, 21 every man, woman and child on it, and your own 22 destiny for the next trillions of years depend on 23 what you do here and now with and in Scientology.' 24 "This is a deadly serious activity. And if we 25 miss getting off the tread now, we may never again 111 1 have another chance. 2 "The next area to handle was the area of the 3 lower-level materials, which are also protected by 4 copyright. In both the United Kingdom and Europe we 5 found instances of squirrels who thought that they 6 could get away with copying and using various -- 7 various of our lower-level materials. In both 8 cases, these squirrels were sued, and in both cases, 9 the squirrel immediately asked for a settlement on 10 our terms completely. 11 "Now, the final settlement papers contain some 12 strong language that can be used from this point 13 forward to show that the courts around the world 14 will not put up with attempts to steal, use LRH tech 15 in an unauthorized manner. There is however another 16 side to this battle that is actually very fortunate 17 for us. And that is, in HCO PL, 21 November, 1972, 18 issue 1, LRH states, 'The basic characteristic of 19 extreme madness is perpetual attack. Attacks on 20 anything. Attacks on persons or things which 21 contain no menace. Extreme, not petty crime, is at 22 the root of such an impulse.' 23 "You see -- 24 "I'll say it again: 'Extreme, not petty crime, 25 is at the root of such an impulse.' 112 1 "And we have a handling for that. Because this 2 obviously works to our advantage. Many squirrels 3 wound up inside a jail in 1986 and many others are 4 being prosecuted. Their crimes range from robbery 5 to drunken driving and resisting arrest to contempt 6 of court to manufacturing drugs. As we move into 7 the new year, it is important to understand why we 8 will always walk away winners and why our enemies 9 will ultimately end up the losers. 10 "In 1965, LRH explained this. He said, 'The 11 basic purpose of orgs is to implement Scientology. 12 Scientology is prior to purposes. Explaining them 13 and handling them, it is of course senior to all 14 purposes and indeed the universe. It simply is 15 life. And being life itself, it has a far greater 16 power than any activity, depending upon purpose 17 alone. That is why people are so happy with it and 18 why groups founded on mere purposes are quite afraid 19 of Scientology. For it is unconsciously realized 20 that life itself, alone, can make and unmake 21 purposes and rise superior to all formulas and 22 actions.'" 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Mr. Prince, in that video you said something about 25 having settlements with people, and they -- they -- they beg 113 1 or they want to settle. Do you recall that? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 Q What did you mean by that? 4 A Well, I can really only relate that to specific 5 examples. 6 There was a -- a person named Robert Scott who put 7 on a Navy uniform -- who put on a Navy uniform similar to 8 the Navy uniforms that were used by Scientology at the time, 9 walked into its top organization in AOSEU -- AOSHEU. I hate 10 to keep saying that. But he walked in there, and he 11 demanded a copy of NED 4 OTs so he could use that to review 12 folders, and he took this material and he walked out the 13 door. 14 One thing that I did in my department was to 15 arrange for someone in Denmark, who seemingly wanted to pay 16 a high price for these materials -- arranged for him to 17 negotiate a price with that person, and then to fly over to 18 Denmark with a copy of the materials to exchange for money, 19 when in fact what had been set up was, the instant he got 20 off the airplane, to be arrested. 21 And years later, I went back to his house and 22 threatened him even more on that particular issue after he 23 was -- got out of jail -- I think he was in there for a 24 month -- and basically just let him know that we intended on 25 taking everything that he had, and his only salvation was to 114 1 cooperate with us. 2 Q Did he cooperate with you? 3 A Eventually he did, yes. 4 Q And did you -- in what manner did he cooperate 5 with you? 6 A He -- I think even in my own hand I may have 7 gotten him to sign something, because I think he had a 8 countersuit. And I'm just doing this from memory, of 9 course. My former colleagues will be able to provide more 10 information. 11 But he had a counterclaim, I believe. I got him 12 to agree to drop the counterclaim. I agreed with him to 13 drop our lawsuit against him if he listed for us everyone 14 that the materials went to, gave us all copies. 15 And he had a castle called Kendegrade Castle in 16 Scotland. 17 (A discussion was held off the record.) 18 A But we were in Scotland at the time, and he had 19 this magnificent castle, and I told him he would certainly 20 lose the castle as part of these negotiations, because there 21 was some financial consideration as well in the settlement. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And did he lose the castle? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Did the Church of Scientology take it? 115 1 A I think the castle was sold and they may have 2 gotten money from it. 3 Q Have you ever been involved in any operation where 4 the Church of Scientology went after attorneys? 5 A Yes. I've been in a couple of instances of that. 6 My first memory of it happening, again, was in the 7 Wollersheim case. This is during the period of time where 8 I'm kind of being broken in. I'm kind of cutting my teeth 9 on these areas. 10 While I was talking with Marty -- I was in a room 11 with Marty and Dave and Vicki, and we were just kind of 12 laughing and talking. And Marty mentioned that Charles 13 O'Reilly -- they had followed him to some club after a 14 hearing or something. And I guess they were having drinks 15 and a meal. And a private investigator by the name Gene 16 Ingram apparently had hired a thug or somebody to physically 17 beat up the attorney there, Charles O'Reilly. 18 Gary Bright, who was an attorney, I think, on -- 19 on one of the Wollersheim cases -- we had a deep cover in 20 the Advance Ability Center, which was located in Santa 21 Barbara. He would come there to have meetings with his 22 client. And our deep cover was also a trusted person by the 23 client, so that person would have privileged information. 24 That person was the senior SCS international's brother, Bob 25 Mithoff, who was a deep cover. There were actually three 116 1 deep covers that we had in there, Bob being the most 2 effective and the most trusted. And privileged information 3 would be taken, financial information would be taken, legal 4 strategies would be known and, you know, used against them. 5 Q You're talking about Mr. Wollersheim, is that 6 right? 7 A In this last instance, yes, that's right, the 8 Wollersheim. 9 Q Okay. Any other attorneys or any other cases that 10 you personally have knowledge of while you were inside the 11 Church of Scientology? 12 A You know, I don't remember anything specific, but 13 I do know that part of it would be to always create 14 complaints that could be submitted to the bar against 15 opposing counsel. 16 Q Do you have personal knowledge about that? 17 A You know, I'm going to say, as I sit here today, 18 that I don't remember specifically who the attorney was 19 or -- 20 Q All right. 21 A I can't say that. 22 THE COURT: In your video you kept referring to 23 the term -- which is -- happens to be new to this 24 hearing -- which is squirrel group and squirreling. 25 What is that? 117 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, squirreling is a term 2 created by L. Ron Hubbard to mean that anyone that 3 is using Scientology in an unauthorized matter (sic) 4 and is also not using it strictly as it is written. 5 THE COURT: It could be somebody within or 6 without. 7 THE WITNESS: Correct. 8 THE COURT: So someone using the tech, is that 9 it; someone using the tech improperly? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. Rather than mark all 13 this as separate exhibits, your Honor, I'd like to 14 mark the next document as a composite so it would 15 speed things up. 16 What number would that be? 109? 17 THE CLERK: Yes. 18 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Handing the witness the 19 clerk's copy, Plaintiff's 109. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Can you identify the first page of 109, 22 Mr. Prince? 23 A Yes, I can. This is HCO executive letter written 24 in 1966. Apparently parts of it were written by a person 25 named Kathy and the other author is L. Ron Hubbard. 118 1 Q And what is a noisy investigation? 2 A This is an intelligence operation that is done to 3 discourage; to harass and discourage. 4 An example -- they give a pretty clear example I 5 think right here. 6 But another example of that could be to go around 7 to a person's neighbors, past business associates, 8 ex-girlfriends, anyone that would have a bone to pick, and 9 make allegations about the person, and ask them, "Well, did 10 you know that he stole the blue ball on the 17th of 11 whatever, and he -- he's doing this, and he's really a bad 12 person; and do you know anything he's done?" And an 13 investigator will systematically go through persons 14 associated with the target to create this air of alarm and 15 hysteria, basically. 16 Q When you were the deputy inspector general, 17 receiving reports from OSA intelligence, do you know -- did 18 you see reports on noisy investigations of people opposed by 19 Scientology? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And -- now, this is an HCO executive letter, 1966. 22 Was that still being practiced when you were deputy 23 inspector general? 24 A Everything that is written by L. Ron Hubbard and 25 is actually in a published form. Like this is a timeless 119 1 piece to be followed for eternity. So it's kind of like the 2 Bible, you know? The Bible was written a couple of thousand 3 years ago but people still stick to that. 4 In that regard and only in that regard is there a 5 similarity in that these things are held sacred and forever. 6 Q Did you observe any noisy investigation of Bob 7 Minton? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What -- give us some examples. 10 A Well, the most vivid one that comes to mind is an 11 operation that was done on his best friend, Jeff Schmidt, 12 who he had apparently started a company with. Scientology 13 found out about Jeff Schmidt through its investigation of 14 Bob Minton. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: How do you know about this? 17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I was there and I 18 spoke with Jeff Schmidt and Robert Minton. We were 19 in the financial district in London. And he made it 20 very clear to me what Scientology had done. And he 21 was in the process of packing up his office to move 22 out of the country. 23 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. It -- it is 24 hearsay. You're right. It's hearsay. But for the 25 purpose of this hearing, I'm going to allow -- 120 1 there's a lot of hearsay in this hearing. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I know. I just -- you know, 3 you -- 4 THE COURT: Right. And it is hearsay, and 5 it'll be taken as hearsay. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q And Jeff Schmidt was Bob Minton's business 8 partner? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And what happened to him? 11 A He eventually disassociated himself from Bob 12 Minton from fear of losing his business practice. He 13 basically couldn't stand a threat -- 14 What he told me specifically is that a Scientology 15 investigator came to him and asked him to either provide or 16 show them how to create information to get Bob Minton; in 17 other words, to get him in legally, to get him involved in 18 law enforcement, on the bad end of law enforcement. And 19 Jeff Schmidt said that he was refusing to do it, and had had 20 many negotiations with this private investigator. 21 Finally his office was broken into and materials 22 were taken out of the office, and at that point, that's when 23 Bob and I flew over there to discuss, "Well, okay. What was 24 taken? What does this mean? What can be done?" 25 Q Do you know where that information ended up? 121 1 A I do not. 2 Q Did Jeff Schmidt -- was he Mr. Minton's partner in 3 the Nigerian deal? 4 A Yes, he was, along with a person, I think, named 5 Miselan (phonetic). 6 Q And do you know if they made a little bit of money 7 on that deal, or a lot? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. I mean, 9 again, Mr. Prince is now being asked what Mr. Minton 10 made on the Nigerian deal, based on a conversation, 11 apparently, with Mr. Minton's former partner. I 12 mean -- 13 THE COURT: And Mr. Minton. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And/or Mr. Minton. 15 He had the opportunity to ask Mr. Minton this 16 stuff if he wanted to. 17 MR. DANDAR: And I believe Mr. Minton -- 18 well -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: No, he didn't. He said he 20 didn't think he did anything wrong in Nigeria. 21 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. Overruled. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Just -- 23 A Mr. Minton never disclosed to me the exact figure 24 of how much money he made from doing the debt buyback for 25 the government of Nigeria. 122 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q And did Mr. Minton go to Howard University and 3 explain to the Nigerian professors and students about what 4 his Nigerian buyback program was all about? 5 A Yes. This was again a private investigator 6 working on behalf of Scientology in Nigeria, started 7 spreading this idea that something illegal had happened in 8 the debt buyback; that somehow Bob had absconded with maybe 9 a billion dollars or some other thing, or some other crooked 10 regime. 11 And they used a soccer star, John Fashanu. 12 Feds -- the -- the investigator said this to Fashanu. 13 Fashanu then used his connections. And he was paid to go 14 around doing this noisy investigation stuff, by, number one, 15 spreading false allegations, allegations that couldn't be 16 proven. 17 And this finally culminated -- I met with a 18 government official from Nigeria in Leipzig, Germany -- I 19 guess it was in 2001. I guess it was in 2001. And it was 20 decided at that point that John Fashanu and his people would 21 show up at Howard University in D.C. and we would debate 22 this and Bob would explain to all concerned, Howard 23 professional students and Howard professors who were 24 familiar with the economic scene in Nigeria -- I guess some 25 people were upset about that because there is some 123 1 criminality over there. 2 But we set it up to be in a hall in Washington, 3 D.C. And strangely enough, John Fashanu never showed up. 4 But I sat in a meeting with those Nigerian people 5 at that university for many hours as Bob went through a 6 stack of paper like this, showing them exactly how the deal 7 was done, who was involved, how much debt buyback they did; 8 what was their percentage of the company; how that was 9 split. I mean, he took the time to go through this very 10 painstakingly -- 11 THE COURT: This must be -- this must have been 12 videotaped by Mr. Bunker, is that true? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 14 THE COURT: Because it's all on videotape and 15 it's all going to be turned over pursuant to the 16 court order. If you want a copy of it, you can get 17 it. You can get it. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q My question is, did the false allegations against 20 Mr. Minton by Scientology on the Nigerian deal -- how did 21 Mr. Minton react to those allegations? 22 A He was very disturbed by it, greatly upset. He 23 was upset over the fact that he had -- was in the process of 24 losing his best, best friend, who he had been in business 25 with many years, Jeff Selman (sic), who was afraid of 124 1 Scientology's power and influence. 2 Q Wait a minute. Jeff Selman? 3 A Jeff -- 4 Q Schmidt. 5 A -- Schmidt. 6 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm talking too fast. 7 He was very upset about that. He was very upset 8 about them contacting his other partner in South Africa 9 whose name was Selman. And Bob Minton was disturbed over 10 the fact that he knew that there was corruption itself in 11 Nigeria, and if you paid enough money around, you could kind 12 of get any kind of trouble started you wanted. 13 Q Are you aware of any kind of trouble that was 14 started with Nigeria in reference to the Swiss government? 15 A I know that certain allegations were brought in 16 Nigeria. And the private investigator working on 17 Scientology's behalf did go to Switzerland, talked to 18 prosecutors, talked to law enforcement, and to use whatever 19 sway or ability that they had to try to get charges brought 20 against Bob in -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: Can we just identify the source 22 of your information? 23 THE WITNESS: Of which -- which -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: You just said that investigators 25 and all this did this in Switzerland. And I just 125 1 would -- I ask, your Honor, for the source of it. 2 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. Bob Minton. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q And did Bob Minton -- 5 THE COURT: It's all in Stacy Brooks' time 6 line. 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I know. 9 THE COURT: I mean, it's all in evidence 10 already. 11 MR. DANDAR: But this man's under oath. 12 THE COURT: Yeah. I know. And that's why I'm 13 allowing it. I mean, it's all in evidence. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And did Mr. Minton -- how did he react to a 16 private investigator making contact with the Swiss 17 prosecutor? 18 A He was shocked. He -- his -- his -- you know, I 19 think Mr. Minton approached at least some of his dealings 20 with Scientology in a bit of a naive way. He couldn't 21 conceptualize the fact that this could possibly happen to 22 him. He couldn't conceptualize that somehow he would be 23 fighting for his credibility, his standing in the different 24 countries and communities that he had done successful 25 business with, to now have to go back and -- and kind of 126 1 resolve things all over again. 2 Q What period of time was it when you or Mr. Minton 3 first realized that there was a private investigator 4 contacting the Swiss prosecutors? 5 A You know, from my recollection, I remember maybe 6 late 2000, 2001, early 2001, there was an incident where the 7 prosecutors in Switzerland had been contacted. Bob hired an 8 attorney or whoever to represent himself. The situation was 9 sorted out. But then it came up again. 10 Q When? 11 A I think this is after the Howard University -- 12 either shortly before or right after, to the best of my 13 recollection. 14 Q Is that 2001? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And was there anything else besides the Nigerian 17 and the Swiss prosecutors -- was there anything else that 18 came to your attention concerning Bob Minton being -- having 19 a noisy investigation done of him by Scientology? 20 A Yes. There's another instances of it. 21 Bob had a interest or stock or something in a car 22 dealership. I believe it was in Boston. And Scientology 23 investigators went around and spoke to the principals at the 24 car dealership. And at the end of that, they no longer 25 wanted to do business with Mr. Minton. They didn't feel 127 1 like it was safe. It was putting the company in jeopardy to 2 have investigators running around making these sorts of 3 allegations. And so he lost that business venture. 4 Q That was a Lexus dealership, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q It wasn't some old used car lot on the corner. 7 A No. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, is all this 9 based on conversations with Mr. Minton? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it is. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q And how did Mr. Minton feel about losing his 13 partnership in a Lexus dealership in New England? 14 A He just broke down and cried. He was like, how is 15 it possible to live in a country like America and not be 16 able to stop this, to turn this off in some way? 17 Q What about any other noisy investigations? 18 A I guess they went to his mother's house and 19 basically told his mother that he's crazy and needed to be 20 incarcerated, and to somehow get the family together to try 21 to get some kind of incarceration going, or at least get 22 that idea going something was seriously wrong with Bob. 23 Q Did you know that Mr. Minton's father had placed 24 him, I think when he was 16, for a few days in a mental 25 institution of some kind? 128 1 A Yes. He -- he told me about that. 2 Q So how did Mr. Minton react to Scientology going 3 to his mother and trying to get her and the family to put 4 Mr. Minton incarcerated in a mental institution? 5 A He was very upset about that. He was -- his 6 viewpoint was, you know, "If they don't like me, then talk 7 to me, but don't go to my family." You know, I guess his 8 mother's in a rest home. She's actually quite old and would 9 probably never understand these things if you explained it 10 to her for 10 years. And he didn't see the -- it was just 11 pure harassment, intimidation. 12 Q Did he just get mad about it or did he get excited 13 about it or did he get depressed about it? 14 A Well, Bob would consult attorneys. He would -- I 15 mean, I've met almost as many attorneys with Bob as I did 16 with Scientology. I mean, it was always having -- Helen 17 Dorr (phonetic), when he would go up there, "This is what 18 they've done now. They've gone to my mother. They've done 19 this. They've done that. Is there anything else I can do? 20 Can law enforcement somehow become involved? Will someone 21 open up an investigation to --" and of course, nothing. 22 So Bob's answer to do something was to picket. 23 He's like, "Okay. They keep doing this stuff, they want to 24 do this stuff, I'm going to picket. I'm going to picket. 25 I'm going to make a sign." Because that was his last line 129 1 of defense. That was the last thing that he could legally 2 do to say, "Hey, look, I don't like what you're doing and 3 I'm showing it." 4 Q Did Bob Minton -- how long have you known Bob 5 Minton? 6 A Since the summer of 1998. 7 Q Okay. Since the summer of 1998 until today, has 8 Bob Minton ever picketed and told you or anyone in your 9 hearing, "Let's go picket so we can help Ken Dandar win the 10 Lisa McPherson death case"? 11 A No. Bob -- no. When he -- a lot of -- often -- 12 more often than not when he would get on these things that 13 he wanted to picket, it was in response to something that 14 was specifically -- that he perceived was being done against 15 him by Scientology. 16 Q How did Bob Minton react when his daughters were 17 followed back to or from school in boston? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form of the 19 question. Mr. Dandar is testifying. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 MR. DANDAR: Sustained. I agree with that, 22 Judge. 23 THE COURT: Well, good. I'm glad you do. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Did you ever hear about Bob Minton expressing any 130 1 statement concerning his daughters being followed? 2 A Yes. He told me that his -- his daughters and his 3 wife had gone out, I think, to the theater or something 4 or -- or some school event or something, and they were 5 followed. And when they came home, their neighborhood was 6 papered with fliers that were distributed about him having 7 some -- 8 THE COURT: You know, I'm wondering why we are 9 hearing this hearsay. A lot of this just confirms 10 what Mr. Minton has already testified to. 11 MR. DANDAR: Oh, Mr. Minton said he would just 12 get angry; he wasn't afraid; he wasn't concerned; he 13 wasn't depressed. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then, how he 15 responded -- we don't need to have Mr. Prince relate 16 what Mr. Minton has already related. 17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q How did Mr. Minton respond -- 20 THE COURT: At least I don't think. Now, 21 obviously, you can bring in hearsay for impeachment 22 if Mr. Minton told him something different from what 23 he said in court. 24 MR. DANDAR: That's what -- 25 THE COURT: But I think much of what we've gone 131 1 over here is stuff that Mr. Minton has said the same 2 thing. 3 MR. DANDAR: My intention is to see if there's 4 something different, what he told Mr. Prince 5 compared to what he told you. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: And I'm trying to -- I'll do it 8 quicker, though. 9 THE COURT: Well, I hope you know -- and if, 10 you know, you don't really have to let me hear it 11 all. Just let me hear what's different if there is 12 anything different. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Okay. Did Mr. Minton express to you that he was 15 concerned when his one daughter was followed to a 16 girlfriend's house in Long Island? 17 MR. WEINBERG: It's the same objection. 18 A Yes, he did. 19 MR. WEINBERG: He's testifying again. You 20 know, "When -- such -- such and such happened." I 21 mean, that's just testifying. 22 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to make it a little 23 faster. 24 THE COURT: Yeah. I'm going to -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: He can ask him what his reaction 132 1 was to whatever it was that he told you. 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. Well, then, I'll ask 3 more questions so this will go longer. But okay. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Did Mr. Minton tell you about his daughter being 6 followed to Long Island? 7 A Yes, he did. 8 Q And how did Mr. Minton -- did he tell you how -- 9 what he thought about that? 10 A He -- he called me on the phone and he said, 11 "Jesse, you won't believe what they're doing now. They're 12 going after my daughters." "Oh. What happened?" "Well, 13 she was followed," or, "They papered the neighborhood," or, 14 you know, "They're passing leaflets out. They're talking to 15 their friends," his daughter's associates, parents, or 16 different people, you know, and just kind of doing their 17 noisy investigation. And this was apparently quite 18 upsetting to his wife, Therese, who would always -- Bob said 19 she would ask, "Well, what are you going to do about it? 20 Well, this can't happen. How do you make this stop?" 21 Q So -- 22 A So he had a lot of pressure. 23 Q Okay. Did he ever -- after all of these noisy 24 investigations, did Bob Minton ever appear to you to be a 25 tough guy about it or not a tough guy? 133 1 A Well, in the beginning he seemed to be quite a 2 tough guy. But as it -- as it progressed -- I mean, that -- 3 that time track that was submitted as an -- as an exhibit, 4 those were instances where we actually could find some type 5 of documentation that proved what the time track said. 6 There are many instances where things happened where we 7 couldn't have or find the documentation. So for anyone 8 to -- to have that much done to them, I mean, even in my 9 time I have never seen such a concerted effort to destroy an 10 individual. 11 Q That time line, did you help put it together? 12 A I -- I have -- yes, I did. 13 Q Okay. And have you read the entire time line? 14 A I'm sure I have at some point. 15 Q And when you read the time line, was it accurate? 16 A Yes, it was. 17 Q Now, go back to Exhibit 109 -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to that. Accurate 19 based on conversations with somebody? He just said 20 this time line, which we all know was -- 21 THE COURT: Very, very thick. 22 MR. WEINBERG: -- exaggerated -- 23 THE COURT: Yeah. Most of that would have been 24 through hearsay information. 25 134 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Was it -- was it accurate through what Mr. Minton 3 told you? 4 A Well -- well, again, I will just state for the 5 record that the information that was put in that time line 6 was information that could be substantiated in other ways. 7 So there is many things that couldn't be substantiated. 8 Therefore, it's not there. But everything that was there, 9 the intent was to be able to substantiate everything there 10 with documentation. 11 Q So Mr. Minton told you there are more things that 12 happened to him that are not in the time line? 13 A Sure. I mean, and I've witnessed it myself. 14 Q Like what? 15 A One time he invited me to New Hampshire -- I think 16 it was maybe the 4th of July. The 4th of July. We were up 17 there; myself, Mr. Minton, his wife, Therese, his children. 18 We were having a barbecue in the back. Scientologists came 19 in their cars, started picketing and screaming from the 20 road, "Where's Stacy?" You know, this is one thing that 21 they really liked to do; tell -- make sure that Bob's wife 22 knew that he was having an affair with Stacy Brooks. 23 Q Well, she knew, didn't she? 24 A Yes, she did. 25 Q So they're yelling this in front of the children. 135 1 A Correct. 2 Q What else would they yell besides, "Where's 3 Stacy?" 4 A That he was crazy. 5 There came a point in time where somehow they were 6 able to get some of his psychiatric information from his 7 psychiatrists and speak to him about that. And I mean at 8 first Mr. Minton was just amazed that these could even 9 happen; that it was even possible for an organization or an 10 individual or any -- for this to be able to happen to a 11 citizen in America. But then again, as time went on, he 12 wore down more and more and more, I guess. The threat 13 became -- I mean, he was just spending so much money 14 defending himself in, you know, three or four countries at 15 one time. 16 Q Now, let me -- since you mentioned psychiatric 17 records, let me jump -- let me jump to August -- well, 18 June -- August of 2001. Do you recall Mr. Minton being 19 upset about records that were put on the Internet, with his 20 wife, his children and himself? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What type of records? 23 A His counseling records from seeing a psychiatrist; 24 I guess information about what kind of medication he had 25 been taking and this kind of thing. 136 1 Q And did you talk to him about that? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q And was he scheduled to appear in a deposition in 4 Clearwater the next day? 5 A I think we're talking about two separate 6 incidents. 7 Q Okay. Which one are you talking about? 8 A Something that preceded the hearing that had to 9 happen in Clearwater. 10 Q Okay. I'm talking about a deposition -- 11 A Okay. 12 Q -- all right? 13 Are you aware that he was ordered to appear, in 14 the breach case in Clearwater, for deposition taken by 15 Mr. Rosen? 16 A Yes. 17 Q All right. Are you aware that he did -- he failed 18 to appear? 19 A Yes. 20 Q All right. Did he tell you why he failed to 21 appear? 22 A Yes, he did. 23 Q And what did he say? 24 A Mr. Minton didn't have a lot of confidence in the 25 justice system as it was being administered in Florida here. 137 1 He felt that as far as discovery was concerned, that they 2 were able to pretty much get away with murder. And he knew 3 that Scientology was not going to stop until he was 4 completely eliminated as an -- as an individual. I mean, 5 part of their policy is to, if possible, of course, ruin the 6 person utterly. 7 THE COURT: Was he concerned -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor? 9 THE COURT: -- about that or was he concerned 10 about the fact that the discovery was going to 11 uncover the fact that he had illegal -- or he had 12 bank accounts outside of this country and money that 13 was coming into this country that he wasn't paying 14 taxes on? 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, he may have had that 16 as a consideration, but it wasn't anything that I 17 was personally aware of. 18 THE COURT: Well, what was it about the fact 19 that the church was going to find this out or that 20 the fact that the -- that the courts were allowing 21 the church to pursue discovery based on their 22 allegations in the counterclaim that had Mr. Minton 23 so upset? 24 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton said that he felt that 25 if he came to Florida, that he was going to go to 138 1 jail. He had been being told that he was going to 2 jail. He -- he -- 3 THE COURT: It was because he was the one that 4 was thumbing his nose at the justice system in the 5 state of Florida, wasn't it? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, ma'am. 7 THE COURT: It's because he was the one coming 8 down here and saying that -- he was just acting like 9 a jerk in his discovery depositions, flaunting 10 himself at the justice system, taking the Fifth 11 Amendment when he'd already published it on the 12 Internet, and expecting, I suppose, that we were so 13 stupid that we wouldn't know enough that he'd waived 14 it. And then, of course, when the judges said that 15 he had indeed waived it and he could no longer hide 16 behind the Fifth Amendment, that he started getting 17 real worried, didn't he? 18 THE WITNESS: Correct. 19 THE COURT: Yeah. 20 THE WITNESS: He became -- 21 THE COURT: Because the church and therefore 22 the courts were going to get pretty knowledgeable 23 about what he had, moneywise -- 24 THE WITNESS: Correct. 25 THE COURT: -- overseas. 139 1 THE WITNESS: Correct. And here in the United 2 States. 3 He was concerned that if Scientology was 4 allowed to have access to his different bank 5 accounts, that he would end up fighting another war 6 with Scientology as he did with the John Fashanu 7 fiasco, and he was just tired of it. 8 THE COURT: Did he talk to you about -- it 9 wasn't any -- it wasn't any secret, was it, that 10 Mr. Minton was a multi-millionaire? 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 THE COURT: Everybody knew that. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: He doled out millions of dollars to 15 fight Scientology. 16 THE WITNESS: Correct. 17 THE COURT: Came into court pretty proud, 18 throwing out over $10 million. And everybody knew 19 that, right? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't know that it had 21 been that much, your Honor, myself. 22 THE COURT: Okay. But I mean, he had doled 23 out -- 24 THE WITNESS: Millions. 25 THE COURT: -- millions. 140 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: And everybody knew he had doled out 3 millions. 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 THE COURT: So the fact that this Church of 6 Scientology was getting ready to find out that he 7 had doled out millions -- 8 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, there's another 9 aspect to this, your Honor. And the aspect is this: 10 Bob Minton, in his mind, always tried to keep 11 his family separate from his activities. He was 12 ready to exhaust every personal resource that he had 13 for himself to keep the fight going, but he was not 14 willing to risk that for his wife and his children. 15 And so when the wife and children became a factor I 16 guess something happened. 17 THE COURT: I don't have any qualms about your 18 talking about the fact that Mr. Minton was upset 19 about his medical records being put on the Internet; 20 I don't have any qualms about your saying Mr. Minton 21 was upset about his children being followed, about 22 his business associates being contacted and what 23 have you. I have no doubt that he was upset about 24 that and what have you. 25 But as far as his being upset with the justice 141 1 system in the state of Florida, the reason I'm upset 2 about that is because Mr. Minton himself is what 3 caused many of his own problems, right? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 5 THE COURT: And then when it looked like they 6 were going to find out some stuff that was really 7 going to get him in a problem, then he had a problem 8 with the justice system. 9 THE WITNESS: I assume that, yes. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Did he ever -- 12 THE COURT: But before he had problems with the 13 justice system, he was plenty happy to play with it, 14 jerk us around, come when he felt like it, answer 15 what questions he felt like, right? 16 THE WITNESS: Correct. 17 THE COURT: Until people in the justice system 18 here in the state of Florida said, "Bob Minton, 19 you're not going to play with our justice system 20 here. We're in charge," right? 21 THE WITNESS: Correct. 22 THE COURT: That caused him a great deal of 23 concern. 24 THE WITNESS: And I guess that he was mainly 25 concerned because he knew that he would not answer 142 1 specific questions. And he felt that if he came 2 into court and he was asked those questions that he 3 had made a conviction that he wasn't going to 4 answer, that he wasn't going to answer them anyway, 5 and he was just going to go to jail. 6 THE COURT: And he could rest assured on that; 7 that if this court or any other court that I'm aware 8 of in my circuit told him to answer a question and 9 he said no, he would have gone to jail until he 10 answered it. And there is no question about that. 11 And I am sure that any inquiry that Mr. Minton 12 asked, he was told that. 13 THE WITNESS: Correct. 14 THE COURT: Right. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 16 THE COURT: No wonder he was upset with the 17 justice system here, the way -- and the games that 18 he was playing. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Did he talk to you about trying to figure out a 21 way not to come to court when he was ordered to appear for 22 deposition? 23 A I think I may have had that conversation with 24 Stacy Brooks. 25 Q Okay. What did she tell you? 'Cause she's also a 143 1 witness in this case. 2 A She told me that -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, I'm 4 objecting to hearsay, but -- I understand what the 5 judge's rulings have been, but at this -- 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. WEINBERG: All this testimony is hearsay. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q What did she tell you? 10 A She told me that Bob was extremely upset; that he 11 was kind of in a -- a state -- a mental state like -- I 12 don't know -- having a breakdown of some sort, and she 13 wanted him to go see a professional. 14 I guess something had happened at that time where 15 the -- again, something happened with the children when he 16 was supposed to come down. I think the neighborhood got 17 leafletted again or something happened with the kids again. 18 And the questions themselves, that he became very 19 distraught. 20 Stacy mentioned having him go see a professional, 21 a psychologist or a psychiatrist or something, and he -- he 22 didn't really want to do that. He didn't want to do that. 23 So -- so that was Stacy's angle of, like, "Okay, well, we 24 need to get him to a professional and get him excused from 25 coming to the deposition." 144 1 Q And did Diane Palermo's name come up in that 2 conversation? 3 A Yes, it did. 4 Q And was Diane Palermo, as far as you know, a 5 mental health therapist? 6 A No, she is not. 7 Q What is she? 8 A As far as I knew, a social worker. 9 Q And was she ever Mr. Minton's social worker? 10 A Not that I'm aware of. I kind of doubt it. 11 Q And are you aware, from speaking with Bob Minton 12 or Stacy Brooks, what Stacy Brooks had tried to get Diane 13 Palermo to do? 14 A Yes. Stacy Brooks tried to get Diane Palermo to 15 do some kind of an analysis of Bob Minton's mental state 16 and -- and give him advice that would preclude him from 17 coming to the deposition. 18 Q And did Diane Palermo agree to do that? 19 A No. Not at all. 20 Q And so what did Stacy Brooks do next to try to get 21 an excuse -- 22 THE COURT: I know the answer to that and so 23 does everybody in this courtroom. We don't need to 24 hear it again. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 145 1 MR. DANDAR: All right. 2 THE COURT: This is in Stacy Brooks' affidavit? 3 MR. DANDAR: Pardon me? 4 THE COURT: Is it in Stacy Brooks' affidavit? 5 MR. DANDAR: I don't think it's in there. Not 6 this way. 7 MR. WEINBERG: She testified about it and 8 Mr. Minton testified about it. I think it's all 9 over the place. 10 MR. DANDAR: They're calling her a mental 11 health therapist who told him not to travel. 12 THE COURT: You already got that out. He said 13 she's not a mental health therapist. 14 MR. DANDAR: All right. 15 THE COURT: But Stacy Brooks filed something 16 before Judge Baird. 17 MR. DANDAR: Yes, she did. That affidavit. 18 THE COURT: That affidavit is what I'm talking 19 about. 20 God, I know this case good, don't I? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you do. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Better than -- 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q And did you see that Stacy Brooks affidavit about 25 trying to make an excuse for Mr. Minton? 146 1 A No, sir. I did not. 2 Q Okay. Do you know that Stacy Brooks called Steve 3 Hassan? 4 A Steve Hassan? Yes. 5 Q And tried to get him to write an excuse letter? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Even though he's never talked to Bob Minton 8 about -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor. Again, 10 this is all based on conversations with Stacy 11 Brooks. I mean, we're -- 12 THE COURT: But this is kind of impeachment, so 13 this is what you got to do. In other words, if 14 Stacy Brooks comes in to court and says one thing in 15 front of me and this -- she's told something 16 different to this man -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think she told anything 18 different -- 19 THE COURT: Yes, she did, about that. 20 MR. WEINBERG: About -- 21 THE COURT: Overruled. 22 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q And did she ask Steve Hassan to write a letter? 25 A She asked Steve Hassan to become involved, and he 147 1 declined, based on the fact that Bob was not a patient of 2 his. Bob -- they had no prior history or discussions 3 about -- you know, Bob hadn't mentioned to him about 4 anything. And of course I think it was kind of obvious that 5 this was a last-ditch effort to -- for Bob not to come down 6 for the deposition. 7 Q But Bob Minton in truth was really, really 8 emotionally upset about what he saw on the Internet. 9 A Yes. He was crying -- 10 THE COURT: Bob Minton didn't come down for the 11 deposition, did he? 12 THE WITNESS: I don't believe he did. No, he 13 didn't. 14 THE COURT: Then I guess -- 15 THE WITNESS: No. He went to the hospital 16 because he -- 17 Okay. Now -- okay. I'm remembering this. 18 THE COURT: Isn't this what Judge Baird found 19 him in contempt for? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Why Lord have mercy, why a judge, 22 why, imagine that; this justice system, when 23 Mr. Minton flaunted a demand and a command and an 24 order from a court to come here and he didn't come, 25 I guess he had every right to be upset at our system 148 1 of justice because some judge took great offense and 2 held him in contempt. Dear, dear. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q All right. Let me -- let me go and look at 5 Exhibit 109 -- 6 A But you know, Bob ended up going to the hospital. 7 He was -- he started having chest pains or something, and he 8 was in the hospital for a couple three days -- 9 Q Okay. 10 A -- under observation by a doctor. And I do 11 believe that on the day that he was supposed to appear for 12 contempt that he was in the hospital. 13 Q All right. Let me have you look back at 109 14 again. 15 A Okay. 16 Q You identified the first page. What about the 17 second page entitled -- 18 A -- Intelligence Actions. 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Are you familiar with that? 22 A Yes, I am. 23 This is kind of a routine that happens in 24 intelligence in Scientology on any -- anything that's a 25 threat or -- or an attack on Scientology. This policy kind 149 1 of comes into play, where you investigate, you do your ODC, 2 overt data collection; CDC, covert data collection. You do 3 your noisy investigation. You find some skeleton. And if 4 you can't find it, you manufacture something. And you use 5 that to sue for peace. 6 Q Is there something in here that talks about 7 manufacturing a skeleton if you can't find it? 8 A Not in this particular one. But you were -- I 9 think the one that you're referring to, as far as 10 manufacturing information against an individual, would lie 11 in the department of government affairs for which you just 12 have one page of. 13 Q Yeah. I see we've got two pages of the same 14 thing. 15 A Yeah. But if I turn one -- two pages back and I 16 go to what's listed here -- 17 THE WITNESS: And I think it's very hard to 18 see, your Honor. It goes from page 484 in this 19 statement packet -- two pages away from government 20 affairs -- 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Government affairs -- 24 Wait. Let me just correct it now. 25 A No, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. 150 1 Q All right. 2 THE COURT: Isn't this something; they're just 3 fussing with each other? 4 MR. DANDAR: You can see we rehearsed all this. 5 THE WITNESS: See, I'll show you. Okay. I'll 6 find it for you. 7 THE COURT: You find it. 8 THE WITNESS: I'll find it for you. 9 Here's the department of government affairs. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: And this is page 483. And then 12 this is put in there and this is put in there. But 13 then we get back to page 484, where it says right 14 here, "If attacked on some vulnerable point by 15 anyone or anything or any organization, always find 16 or manufacture enough threat against them to cause 17 them to sue for peace." 18 THE COURT: Okay. This is page -- 19 This is not in order, Mr. Dandar. 20 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to fix it. I'd like to 21 fix it now. 22 THE COURT: Well, maybe you could fix it before 23 you introduce it. 24 MR. DANDAR: I will. 25 THE COURT: If there is going to be Exhibit 409 151 1 (sic), you better have this 409-A, B -- 2 MR. DANDAR: 109. 3 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 109. 4 MR. DANDAR: That's what I'll do. I'll label 5 them. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: I can see where the extra pages -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm lost. 9 THE COURT: It's page 484, which is not after 10 page 483. It's about four pages back. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 12 THE COURT: It says, if you will look -- 13 Well, where was that? 14 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 4 is in there twice. 15 THE WITNESS: Let me see. It's in the third 16 paragraph. 17 THE COURT: Show me where you're reading from. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I see it. It's the third 19 paragraph. 20 THE COURT: Okay. "If attacked on some 21 vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any 22 organization, always find or manufacture enough 23 threat against them to cause them to sue for peace." 24 What is this? 25 THE WITNESS: This is a policy letter, your 152 1 Honor. This is a church policy letter that is a 2 policy letter for the department of government 3 affairs, which is a department or a section or a 4 unit within the Scientology organization, that 5 basically talks about -- you know, things having to 6 do with tax matters, legal activities, whatever, for 7 an organization. 8 THE COURT: What does the term "sue for peace" 9 mean? 10 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, it means 11 basically that a person just wants to end 12 what's-ever happening and let's just settle it and 13 all walk away as happy as possible. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Like a disengagement? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I've marked mine, and I'd 18 like to mark the clerk's copy with the letters. 19 THE WITNESS: And you see we -- I think -- I 20 can help you put this in order here, because you got 21 the pages -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: What I did was I eliminated 23 the -- the Intelligence Action, second page, it 24 looked like the same thing that was -- 25 THE COURT: Yeah. The second Intelligence 153 1 Actions, right? 2 MR. WEINBERG: I threw that one out. They were 3 the same as the first one. And then I reordered, 4 what you did, 483, 484, 485. And I assume 5 everything else is the same. 6 THE WITNESS: I've -- so this is the whole 7 document right there, these three pages. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Okay. Look at the next part, where it's 10 previously marked in another deposition, as Exhibit 6, about 11 "make sure that's all in order." 12 A Okay. 13 Q First of all, do you identify that document? 14 A Yes. This is also a document that's relevant to 15 PR, legal intelligence. 16 Q And what is that called? 17 A Public Investigations Section. 18 Q Public investigation. 19 A Correct. 20 Q What's that? 21 A This would be investigating individuals outside of 22 Scientology using outside agencies. 23 I have to take a moment to look at this. 24 Q All right. 25 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. This looks 154 1 like something too long to read here to have any 2 meaningful talk. Let's quit for the day. I'm 3 tired. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm tired. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 6 THE COURT: It's quarter to 5. If you will 7 read this over tonight, and we'll continue on. 8 In the meantime, have these marked by the clerk 9 as 109-A, B, C, D, so we know what you're referring 10 to. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. And I have -- I have the 12 clerk's copies here. 13 THE COURT: Okay. If you'll -- do you have a 14 copy for your witness to look at? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Prince, while you 17 are on the witness stand, you are in rather a unique 18 position. You not only are under the rule, which 19 means that you can't talk to any other witness about 20 your testimony -- 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 THE COURT: -- nor can they talk to you about 23 theirs, but while you are on the witness stand, you 24 are not permitted to speak to anyone about the case, 25 including Mr. Dandar or counsel for the other side, 155 1 all right? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 3 THE COURT: Now, I may, if I'm gone and 4 Mr. Prince isn't done and I'm gone for two weeks, 5 let him out from under that, just like I did other 6 people when it was going to be, like, long weekends 7 or what have you. But not for tonight. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 9 THE COURT: And I really think, Mr. Dandar, 10 that you ought to be able to get through this a 11 little faster. We don't need -- you can go quickly 12 through those things that your experts have already 13 testified to. And I presume his testimony would be 14 the same. 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 16 I'm going to go through the PC folders and -- 17 which is I gave him that affidavit that you haven't 18 seen apparently before. 19 THE WITNESS: But this is the clerk's. This 20 has to go back to her. 21 MR. DANDAR: And I'll show him that as well. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 108. 24 And then we're going to talk about Mr. Minton, 25 the LMT, and what transpired in 2002. 156 1 THE COURT: You're never going to finish 2 tomorrow, I'll bet you, but -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Plus he's got Mr. Haney set in 4 the morning. 5 MR. DANDAR: I have Mr. Haney in the morning. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. WEINBERG: So we're obviously not going to. 8 MR. DANDAR: And he should be short. 9 MR. WEINBERG: But I will not necessarily be 10 brief with Mr. Prince, but I don't know yet. 11 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't really matter. I 12 don't think he's going to be brief either. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 14 THE COURT: Because we've got a lot of ground 15 to cover with Mr. Prince. And frankly, we're not to 16 any of the issues. 17 MR. WEINBERG: No. 18 THE COURT: But thank you, sir. You may step 19 down, remembering the rule I just gave you about 20 while you're a witness on the stand. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: If you will remind me Wednesday 23 afternoon when we break for over two weeks, 24 Mr. Dandar, better yet -- I shouldn't have to rely 25 on this witness -- if you will remind me, since he 157 1 is an expert of yours or a consulting witness or 2 whatever he is, I may allow you to have some 3 discussions with him since we're going to be in 4 recess on this hearing for two weeks. 5 MR. DANDAR: Thank you, Judge. 6 THE COURT: But you're going to have to remind 7 me so I can decide that. 8 MR. WEINBERG: We would like to speak to that 9 particular issue. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 (An overnight recess was taken at 4:50 p.m.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 158 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 19th day of June, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25