4                      CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
     DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
 6   Representative of the ESTATE OF
 8             Plaintiff,
 9   vs.                                     VOLUME 4
     and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
15   PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                         Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
                         Testimony of Jesse Prince.
     DATE:               July 9, 2002.
     PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
19                       St. Petersburg, Florida.
20   BEFORE:             Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer,
                         Circuit Judge.
     REPORTED BY:        Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR,
22                       Notary Public,
                         State of Florida at large.
 3   5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
     Tampa, FL 33602
 4   Attorney for Plaintiff.
 6   112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
     Tampa, FL 33602-4108
 7   Attorney for Plaintiff.
 9   1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
     Clearwater, FL 33755
10   Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
     MR. LEE FUGATE and
13   101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
     Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14   Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
     740 Broadway at Astor Place
17   New York, NY 10003-9518
     Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18   Organization.
20   980 Tyrone Blvd.
     St. Petersburg, FL 33743
21   Attorney for Mr. Minton.
 2                                                  PAGE   LINE
 3   Recess                                         535     10
     Recess                                         580      3
 4   Reporter's Certificate                         581      1
 1             (The proceedings resumed at 10:05 a.m.)
 2             THE COURT:  Mr. Wein, you're here for
 3        Mr. Battaglia, who's filing a notice of appearance
 4        for Mr. Minton, is that right?
 5             MR. WEIN:  Correct.
 6             THE COURT:  I had mentioned to him yesterday
 7        that I believed there had been a motion to dismiss
 8        filed.  He indicated that he thought he knew that.
 9             This is my courtesy copy of that motion.  I'm
10        going to give it to you to take a look at.
11             MR. WEIN:  Yes, ma'am.
12             THE COURT:  And you know, frankly, we probably
13        need to have that heard.  There's still an issue as
14        to whether this Count I, the counterclaim, will be
15        consolidated or not.  But for the moment it's not,
16        and I'm not thinking right now that I will.  But
17        that certainly has a bearing on it since he hasn't
18        even answered.
19             MR. WEIN:  Yes, your Honor.  I'll get it copied
20        during the break.
21             THE COURT:  Okay.  Great.  As I said, he may
22        have it, but just in case he doesn't --
23             But I need that back since that's my copy.
24             MR. WEIN:  Yes, your Honor.
25             THE COURT:  And so I'm looking for you all to
 1        get that scheduled for hearing, okay?
 2             MR. WEIN:  Yes, ma'am.
 3             THE COURT:  Okay.  Now, I see that we have a
 4        couple other matters here that are still
 5        outstanding.  I hope some of them have been
 6        resolved, maybe.
 7             We still have the e-mails.  Now, there is just
 8        no reason in the world why you all can't agree on
 9        some of those e-mails on some of those people.  I
10        hope you've done that.
11             MR. FUGATE:  Well, Judge, the one thing I
12        brought up yesterday -- and I think may be
13        resolvable -- is there are -- there are e-mails that
14        I went and looked at, that look -- just at the
15        headers -- that are e-mails for Peter Alexander,
16        who's already testified, and Patricia Greenway and
17        different people, through LMT.  And Mr. Dandar, I
18        think, objected to Ms. Greenway's e-mails being
19        produced because he now says she's a trial
20        consultant of his.  But of course, at the time that
21        the e-mails were generated, she was not.
22             THE COURT:  She wasn't a witness, was she?
23             MR. FUGATE:  Well, I don't know if she was a
24        witness then or not.
25             MR. DANDAR:  She's not.
 1             MR. MOXON:  She -- she was --
 2             MR. DANDAR:  Never.
 3             MR. MOXON:  She was subpoenaed and her
 4        deposition was started, and it was held in abeyance.
 5        Judge Beach indicated that he was going to wait --
 6        based on the court's last comments concerning
 7        whether the case was going to be consolidated or
 8        not, that he was going to wait on that, on the
 9        completion of her deposition, until that was all
10        resolved.
11             THE COURT:  Whose witness is she?
12             MR. MOXON:  Well, she's not listed on anybody's
13        witness list.
14             THE COURT:  Then you don't get her e-mails.
15             MR. FUGATE:  Well, the problem, Judge, is, the
16        e-mails are -- it's Peter Alexander, slash, Patricia
17        Greenway.  Peter Alexander is a -- a witness.  As I
18        saw the headers.  And so I had marked all those to
19        give Mr. Keane, and then found that, you know, they
20        couldn't be given up due to the fact that Patricia
21        Greenway's name is on the line.
22             I think when you see the -- once -- once we get
23        to rebuttal position and you see these videos, such
24        videos as we now have gotten, you're going to see a
25        totally different image than what I think we were
 1        able to -- to put before you, and see the type of
 2        activity that's going on that is connected to the
 3        case, to the wrongful death case, and to the
 4        picketing.  And she is in virtually all the videos
 5        that I was looking at during the break.  And so I
 6        think, you know, she well may be -- in fact, I think
 7        she will be for sure -- a witness in the
 8        counterclaim.
 9             But it also goes to -- some of the film video
10        that we saw of Mr. Alexander.  Had we had that
11        before he testified, we would have cross examined
12        him.  And I think there's going to be like
13        information in the e-mails.  And I think it's
14        important that we -- we get them.
15             THE COURT:  I don't have any problem with
16        Mr. Alexander.  I think he's been listed as a
17        witness.
18             MR. FUGATE:  Yes.
19             THE COURT:  If she has not, then she is
20        simply -- you don't get people's e-mails just
21        because you want to.
22             MR. FUGATE:  Okay.  Well -- well, these are the
23        LMT e-mails, now.  These are e-mails that were
24        generated out of LMT.
25             THE COURT:  I understand.  But you still don't
 1        get all of LMT's e-mails.  You only get LMT's
 2        e-mails if there's somebody that is potentially a
 3        witness, it would seem to me.  I mean, somebody
 4        ought to have some privacy in this world beyond
 5        everybody under the sun reading their e-mails.
 6             MR. FUGATE:  Well, I think if they generated
 7        them through LMT, and LMT is the subject of the
 8        litigation, then -- and they were part of the board
 9        of trustees and directors, et cetera, that's a
10        different category than just some citizen.  I mean,
11        these are the e-mails that were --
12             One of the problems that we've had is this is
13        all the information that was being sought in the
14        subpoenas that were basically obstructed.  The
15        production was delayed by all the parties.
16             THE COURT:  You're going to have to file a
17        motion.  He says she's a trial consultant.  You
18        wouldn't normally get a trial consultant's e-mails,
19        even if she was a party.  So we're going to have to
20        hear it.  So I just can't make a ruling on it.
21             MR. FUGATE:  Well --
22             THE COURT:  Peter Alexander, I don't have a
23        problem with.
24             MR. FUGATE:  It's the same lines.  You don't
25        know who wrote the e-mail by looking at the little
 1        blurb that Keane has in his notebook.  It just says
 2        Peter Alexander, slash, Patricia Greenway, to,
 3        whoever.
 4             THE COURT:  Well, then I guess I'll have to
 5        read them all.  So there you have it.
 6             MR. FUGATE:  Well, I'll also --
 7             THE COURT:  But you can file your motion.
 8             MR. FUGATE:  -- prepare a motion -- I'll file a
 9        motion.
10             THE COURT:  Then I can, you know -- it's just
11        too -- when you're all in the cream of things and
12        they're not just crystal clear to me how I need to
13        rule, then I need a motion so I can really think it
14        through.
15             Is she your trial consultant now?
16             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
17             THE COURT:  And when was that?
18             MR. DANDAR:  The fall of 2001.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Oh, you know, your Honor, I'm
20        sorry, but when this hearing started and
21        Ms. Greenway came up, I said, "Ms. Greenway is
22        obviously his trial consultant," and Mr. Dandar
23        said, "That's a joke."
24             THE COURT:  Well -- look, file --
25             MR. WEINBERG:  And we've got it on the record.
 1             THE COURT:  File your motion, and -- and
 2        then --
 3             You know, I'll -- I thought we could resolve
 4        this, but we can't.  Okay.
 5             Who else --
 6             MR. DANDAR:  And it's not --
 7             THE COURT:  Have we resolved the rest of them?
 8             MR. FUGATE:  Judge, I'm going to have to ask
 9        you to let us revisit it at lunchtime, on the
10        videos, because I haven't been able to get in touch
11        with Mr. Keane.  So rather than take your time, I'll
12        just check with that.  And then over the break, I'll
13        check with Mr. Dandar to see if there's anything
14        else we can -- over the lunch break -- that we can
15        agree to so we don't take up any more time.
16             THE COURT:  Okay.  How about the e-mails?  Have
17        you all agreed to some of the e-mails?
18             MR. MOXON:  We've agreed to most of them, your
19        honor.
20             THE COURT:  Okay.
21             MR. MOXON:  In fact, remember after our
22        conference call, Mr. Dandar and I stayed on the
23        line --
24             THE COURT:  Right.
25             MR. MOXON:  -- and we agreed which ones would
 1        be produced and which ones would be subject to
 2        objection.  And there were -- there were six names
 3        that Mr. Dandar objected to.  Ms. Greenway was one
 4        of them; he was another, his -- his brother was
 5        another.  And I understand from Mr. Keane that there
 6        are some further communications for which Mr. Dandar
 7        was cc'ed, and a bunch of -- and apparently other
 8        people are cc'ed too.  And pursuant to the court's
 9        order, obviously those were not produced because you
10        indicated you wanted to see those first.
11             THE COURT:  Right.
12             MR. MOXON:  And so he told me he's going to
13        bring them by for you --
14             THE COURT:  Okay.
15             MR. MOXON:  -- and -- so that you can look at
16        them in camera.
17             THE COURT:  Well, maybe the best thing to do is
18        to -- just so that I can see them before we have a
19        hearing on this motion, maybe if Mr. Keane would
20        bring by these Alexander, slash, Greenways, so I can
21        see, number one, whether they're Mr. Alexander's or
22        Ms. Greenway's, and see what the gist of them is,
23        and it might be better to have read at least a few
24        of them before we have a hearing.
25             MR. MOXON:  Okay.  I'm trying to reach him too
 1        on some of the videos.  I didn't -- when I wasn't
 2        here yesterday, apparently you had indicated that
 3        there were a couple of videos that you wanted to see
 4        which you didn't believe that you had?
 5             THE COURT:  Well, no.  I think what -- somebody
 6        said that there's a couple of videos that have
 7        Mr. Dandar on them, and I believe I had indicated
 8        that before they would be released, that I would
 9        review them in camera to see if there was any basis
10        for them being or not being released.  I think that
11        was part of my order, either verbal --
12             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
13             THE COURT:  -- or written or something.
14             MR. MOXON:  In any event, there are -- there
15        are definitely a couple that you had marked that you
16        said you wanted to see and --
17             THE COURT:  Oh, okay.
18             MR. MOXON:  -- I'll make sure that those get to
19        you.
20             THE COURT:  Okay.
21             MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, so the record's
22        complete, on May 23rd, 2002 --
23             THE COURT:  Well, it's best, so that I don't
24        ever hear that you all looked at those or anything
25        of the sort, have Mr. Keane deliver them.
 1             MR. MOXON:  Oh, I don't have custody of them.
 2             THE COURT:  Okay.
 3             MR. MOXON:  They're in Mr. Keane's --
 4             THE COURT:  Okay.
 5             MR. FUGATE:  So the record's complete on the
 6        last situation, on May 23rd, page 787 of the
 7        transcript, line 20 through 25, Mr. Dandar says, "I
 8        heard someone call Patricia Greenway my trial
 9        consultant.  That's a joke.  She doesn't work for me
10        at all.  She's a person who's just interested in
11        this case," in this hearing is what he represented
12        to the court.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, then he'll be
14        hard-pressed to say she was his consultant back in
15        2001.
16             MR. DANDAR:  She's -- yeah.  She's not a paid
17        consultant.  She never has been.  She's a volunteer.
18             THE COURT:  Well, you can't say that it's a
19        joke if somebody's a consultant and then come and
20        tell me with a straight face that they were a
21        consultant since 2001.
22             MR. DANDAR:  I --
23             THE COURT:  One or the other of those
24        statements is incorrect.
25             MR. DANDAR:  Right.  I -- Right.  I stand
 1        corrected.
 2             THE COURT:  All right.
 3             MR. DANDAR:  Here's the original response to
 4        their request for production on Jesse Prince.  We
 5        objected to income tax returns because, number one,
 6        it's not provided for under the rules; it's
 7        prohibited.  And number two, we provided most if not
 8        all of the information they requested before, in
 9        April of 2001, except for a -- we did pay Mr. Prince
10        $4,000 recently, and that's -- we don't have a
11        returned check on that yet.  So we have nothing to
12        produce.
13             THE COURT:  Well, when you get it --
14             MR. DANDAR:  I will.
15             THE COURT:  -- produce it.
16             MR. DANDAR:  When I get it back, yeah.
17             THE COURT:  Okay.  And I'll get to that in a
18        minute.  But I've got some other things here --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could I just say one
20        other thing about this joke thing?
21             From my perspective, it really isn't all right.
22        Because I remember very clearly when that came up, I
23        was the one, I believe, that said about the trial
24        consultant thing, and Mr. Dandar looked at me
25        with -- with such -- you know, with such disdain and
 1        said, "That is a joke.  She's not my trial
 2        consultant."  I mean, this has been happening
 3        throughout this entire proceeding with Mr. Dandar.
 4        And it's really sort of what the proceeding's about.
 5        And it's just not --
 6             THE COURT:  I understand that.
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  It's not right.
 8             THE COURT:  You file your motion --
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  I will.
10             THE COURT:  -- and then I'll hear you on that.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
12             MR. DANDAR:  I did stand corrected, Judge.  I
13        was wrong on the date.
14             THE COURT:  All right.  Now, look, this order
15        concerning production of LMT records, then, for now,
16        I'm going to throw it in the wastebasket.  But --
17        but somebody's probably got some envelopes with some
18        postage on them.  And it's probably Mr. Moxon.  So
19        Mr. Moxon, I'll give this back to you.
20             This is on the LMT production.  And probably I
21        don't need to sign that order.  So your envelopes
22        and your postage --
23             MR. MOXON:  All right.  Thank you, your Honor.
24             THE COURT:  And whatever ones you all haven't
25        agreed to, let's try to get that resolved so that we
 1        can conclude this hearing.
 2             MR. MOXON:  I guess there really is no written
 3        order on this.
 4             THE COURT:  There isn't.  And I probably ought
 5        to do a written order.  But that order was objected
 6        to because it had, as an attachment, the list.  So
 7        maybe what you can do is hold on to that and attach
 8        a different list, those that have been agreed to,
 9        and I'll sign that order.
10             MR. MOXON:  Great.
11             THE COURT:  And that will be agreed to by the
12        parties.  And those that aren't agreed to, we'll
13        have a separate motion.  And try to put them all in
14        there so we can do one order on the rest of them.
15             MR. MOXON:  That makes sense.
16             THE COURT:  Okay?
17             MR. MOXON:  Thank you.
18             THE COURT:  And do put in there the prohibition
19        on the e-mails about Mr. Dandar -- to or from
20        Mr. Dandar; that I'll want to review those first.
21             MR. MOXON:  Very good.
22             THE COURT:  And that includes, of course, his
23        brother.
24             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
25             THE COURT:  Dandar and Dandar, Dandar Law,
 1        whatever the e-mail address is.
 2             Now, I have two other things here that I hope
 3        there's been some resolution on.  One is a verified
 4        motion to appear pro hac vice and a bunch of motions
 5        to quash and memorandums and things regarding the
 6        attorney, Samuel D. Rosen.  Has that been resolved?
 7             MR. FUGATE:  No, Judge.  I think that those
 8        were delivered to you -- the subpoenas -- I
 9        understand it was issued at 5 p.m. on --
10             THE COURT:  I understand all that.  I read it
11        last night.
12             I just wanted to know, has it been resolved?
13             MR. FUGATE:  No.  It's -- the -- Mr. Rosen is
14        in California and Mr. Hill is in Argentina.  There
15        was a letter sent to Mr. Dandar, which he didn't
16        respond to --
17             THE COURT:  Counsel, don't reiterate what's in
18        this.  I've read it.  I simply asked a question:  Is
19        it resolved?  The answer is no.
20             MR. FUGATE:  No.
21             THE COURT:  Mr. Dandar, I told you to get on
22        the telephone and get this thing resolved.  Now I've
23        got all this stuff to read.  Apparently you didn't
24        do that.  They've given a list of dates when they
25        can be here.  There's a motion for protective order
 1        filed.  Naturally, they don't have to respond, once
 2        they've done the protective order, till we've heard
 3        it.
 4             Do you want him here --
 5             MR. DANDAR:  I --
 6             THE COURT:  -- or not?
 7             MR. DANDAR:  I talked to him in person --
 8             THE COURT:  Okay.
 9             MR. DANDAR:  -- on July the 2nd, and I asked
10        him to appear Monday in this court for this hearing.
11        When I didn't receive a reply, a response from
12        Mr. Rosen, I had -- then had him served with a
13        subpoena.  So while I was away on July 4th, this
14        paperwork was generated.  And you know, we're not
15        going to be here, I don't think, July 17th.  And I'm
16        not going to pay Mr. Rosen first class airfare to
17        fly from New York.
18             So if you tell me that I'm required to his pay
19        his first class airfare, then I'm going to tell you
20        that I don't want him here.
21             THE COURT:  I don't --
22             Now, what I'm going to do -- what I asked was a
23        simple question:  Has it been resolved and have you
24        called him on the telephone?  It may well be a very
25        simple way to resolve this would have been, perhaps,
 1        to have done this when he was --
 2             He is -- he is, frankly, not just like your
 3        everyday, nonresident person.  He is a lawyer pro
 4        hac vice in this state.  Therefore, as far as I am
 5        concerned, he is a lawyer in this state.  And it
 6        seems as if something could have been worked out.
 7             He certainly indicated that he would come when
 8        he was down here.  And I don't know what his
 9        testimony would be, but I think he was only present
10        at maybe one -- one hearing.  And he's already
11        produced his notes.  The subpoena duces tecum said,
12        "Produce the notes."  Well, we already have them.
13        So I don't know what you're -- you know, what you
14        want to ask him, but I suspect we could have done
15        this with some degree of civility, with him being a
16        lawyer -- right now in Florida he's a practicing
17        lawyer, because he's been admitted -- to accommodate
18        him.  We try to accommodate lawyers.
19             MR. DANDAR:  Of course.
20             THE COURT:  So I don't know whether I'm going
21        to require you to pay an airfare or not.  I don't
22        know that that's contemplated if -- I would resolve
23        this and make rulings on that.  But right now I've
24        got another member of the bar, of Georgia, who wants
25        to be admitted to argue this motion.  And --
 1             MR. DANDAR:  Well, there's no need to argue the
 2        motion.  If -- if Mr. Rosen states that he has court
 3        hearings that he cannot get out of because of prior
 4        commitments, that's fine.  But he doesn't spell out
 5        what his prior commitments are.  If it's meeting
 6        with a client, like RTC or Scientology in California
 7        rather than appear in court, then I would object to
 8        that.  But he doesn't spell out, nor does his
 9        counsel from Georgia spell out --
10             THE COURT:  Well, you see, you don't even
11        understand this:  Once a motion for protective order
12        is filed, he doesn't have to appear, period --
13             MR. DANDAR:  I understand that.
14             THE COURT:  -- until there's a ruling on the
15        motion.
16             MR. DANDAR:  I understand.
17             THE COURT:  I just simply said, if it's not
18        been resolved, then we need to schedule a hearing on
19        the motion.
20             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, you know, at this stage, I
21        don't think any of this is necessary.
22             THE COURT:  You don't want him.
23             MR. DANDAR:  No.  He doesn't -- I don't want to
24        be here in a hearing on July 17th.  This hearing, I
25        hope, is going to be over with this week.
 1             THE COURT:  Well, he said he'll be here on
 2        July 17th.
 3             What we'll do is ask him to keep that date
 4        relatively free with the idea that we might need
 5        him.  You make a decision.
 6             MR. DANDAR:  Well, we don't have to argue the
 7        motion.  If he's not available, that's fine.
 8             THE COURT:  All right.  I'm going to assume
 9        he's unavailable.  I've had him say that; I've had
10        his lawyer --
11             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.
12             THE COURT:  -- indicate he's unavailable, I
13        mean, so I'm assuming he's unavailable.
14             MR. DANDAR:  And so am I.
15             THE COURT:  And he did say why he was
16        unavailable.  He said he was going to a final
17        pretrial conference scheduled and he needed to get
18        with his client to change some things and work some
19        things out.  I don't know what the client is or who
20        the client is, but that seems to me to be a
21        legitimate reason.
22             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.
23             THE COURT:  So I think what he's saying --
24             I will admit -- any reason why we shouldn't
25        admit Mr. Hill?
 1             MR. DANDAR:  No.
 2             THE COURT:  And I would agree with that.  So as
 3        far as his motion to be admitted pro hac vice for
 4        this purpose, it's granted.
 5             MR. FUGATE:  And I will call his office -- I've
 6        got his secretary's number -- and advise him what
 7        the court has indicated for the 17th.
 8             THE COURT:  Yeah.  Just kind of try to keep
 9        it --
10             But Mr. Dandar, if -- if you want to have a
11        hearing on the -- what you have to pay to have him
12        here, quite frankly, as I said, he -- he may not be
13        entitled to that; he may.  I'd have to make a
14        decision on that.
15             But golly, surely he's been down here
16        sometimes -- I mean -- I mean, if he was here we
17        could have done -- maybe if you'd called him and he
18        was here for a hearing before Judge Baird, you could
19        have done it in a video; I could have seen it in a
20        video.  You know, there's lots of ways to work these
21        things out rather than --
22             You know, I'm not crazy about -- both sides
23        here have served subpoena on people when they've
24        been in court, they walk outside of court and they
25        get hit with lawsuits or subpoenas or something.
 1        But I'm not sure that can't be done, so I'm not sure
 2        that that objection is valid.
 3             But I think what he said is, we don't have to
 4        hear it.  So keep the 17th -- you make a decision if
 5        you want him.
 6             MR. DANDAR:  I will.
 7             THE COURT:  If you decide you want him, I'll
 8        decide what you have to pay him to appear --
 9             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
10             THE COURT:  -- and --
11             But as I said, I -- I am not persuaded that he
12        is a typical non-Florida resident.  He is appearing.
13        This is, in my opinion, a related lawsuit, unlike
14        what Mr. Hill suggests.
15             So in any event, you want me to resolve it,
16        I'll resolve it, and we'll see what the law might be
17        regarding those kinds of situations.
18             But remember, we do have his notes.
19             MR. DANDAR:  That's right.  That's why --
20             THE COURT:  Yeah.  And --
21             MR. DANDAR:  Right.
22             THE COURT:  -- you know, I presume that his
23        testimony would be consistent somewhat with his
24        notes, and Ms. Yingling's.  She was there and she
25        testified as to what happened there and --
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  And Mr. Jonas's notes too.
 2             THE COURT:  And Mr. Jonas's notes.
 3             MR. DANDAR:  That's correct.
 4             THE COURT:  And presumably -- I don't know if
 5        you've had a chance to speak to Mr. Jonas on the
 6        phone or not, but I mean you've had some
 7        communication, I know, with Mr. Jonas --
 8             MR. DANDAR:  Right.
 9             THE COURT:  -- about the meeting.
10             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.  Before this all happened.
11             THE COURT:  Right.  So, you know, based on
12        that, you may not need him.  If you don't need him,
13        I don't need to hear it.  If you do need him, I'm
14        going to ask him to set his calendar for the 17th
15        aside; I'll make it a point to be here.  You decide
16        by noon today.  And if so, I'll tell him block his
17        calendar off.
18             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine.
19             THE COURT:  If you don't need him, tell me that
20        and I'm going to throw this in the wastebasket.
21             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
22             THE COURT:  Now, then, we have this Opposition
23        of Defendant Church of Scientology's to H. Keith
24        Henson's Motion for Leave to File Amicus Brief.
25             I don't know exactly what -- I haven't had a
 1        chance to look at that, quite frankly.  I got it
 2        right when I was ready to go on vacation, and
 3        frankly, it wasn't something I --
 4             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Right.
 5             THE COURT:  I put it somewhere.
 6             So I don't know if I'm ready to take this up --
 7             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Okay.
 8             THE COURT:  -- right yet.
 9             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yeah.
10             THE COURT:  I don't know if it's been filed, is
11        my question.  I don't know whether I got the
12        original or whether he filed it and sent me and
13        everybody else a copy.
14             Do you know that?
15             MR. LIEBERMAN:  I don't think it's been filed.
16        I don't know for sure.
17             THE COURT:  Then I might have the original, you
18        think?
19             MR. LIEBERMAN:  I think that's probably right.
20             And I would urge that it --
21             THE COURT:  I --
22             MR. LIEBERMAN:  -- not be filed.
23             THE COURT:  I have not filed it.  I have it, I
24        believe, at home with some of the other stuff that I
25        thought maybe I would read when I was on vacation.
 1        And quite frankly, I didn't.
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  So it was a real vacation.
 3             THE COURT:  So -- well, if you consider moving
 4        11 boxes and unpacking and moving furniture around a
 5        vacation.
 6             MR. FUGATE:  Judge, my recollection is, when it
 7        came in, you indicated, "I've got what appears to be
 8        an original and several copies.  I'm going to give
 9        Mr. Dandar one and give you guys one."  So I think
10        that's it.
11             THE COURT:  Okay.
12             MR. FUGATE:  So --
13             THE COURT:  Well, don't anybody file it.
14        Anybody that has a copy, don't file it.  I then
15        apparently have the original, which would mean that
16        I can take a look at it and see what it is.
17             I do remember briefly looking.  He said it was
18        an amicus brief.  Well, it wasn't.  It was just a
19        bunch of stuff.
20             MR. LIEBERMAN:  It's a letter, which he
21        denominates as either an amicus brief or a motion to
22        file an amicus brief and an amicus brief.
23             THE COURT:  Right.
24             Now, one of my -- my real questions is -- is,
25        we get stuff all the time.
 1             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
 2             THE COURT:  I mean, if they send it to the
 3        clerk's office instead of to me, it just gets filed,
 4        no matter what they call it, no matter what -- we
 5        get stuff from people all the time.  So that would
 6        be my only concern is --
 7             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
 8             THE COURT:  -- I don't monitor that.  I let
 9        stuff be filed.
10             But I do understand that if there's been some
11        copyright rulings made --
12             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
13             THE COURT:  -- and some injunctions on some of
14        this material --
15             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
16             THE COURT:  -- which I read over your motion --
17             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
18             THE COURT:  -- and some court has said that he
19        can't publish this -- well, then, we can't really
20        allow him, under some guise of filing an amicus
21        brief, to file in a public file things that he's
22        not --
23             So --
24             MR. LIEBERMAN:  That's --
25             THE COURT:  So I have some genuine concerns, as
 1        you do, about some of that.
 2             But I haven't read it.  Let me take an occasion
 3        to look at it.  I'll hold this off.  I will not file
 4        it until I make a ruling on it.
 5             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Thank you, Judge.
 6             THE COURT:  Now, I don't know who gets notice
 7        about a hearing.  I guess him.  And he is in Canada.
 8             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
 9             THE COURT:  So maybe I just ought to set a date
10        and see if he wants to come.
11             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.  That would be a good
12        idea.
13             THE COURT:  Did you send him a copy of your --
14             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes, we did.
15             THE COURT:  I thought you did.
16             Do you know where he is; like, where something
17        could be faxed to him?  I don't know how long it
18        takes something to get to Canada.
19             MR. LIEBERMAN:  I don't know that we have a fax
20        number for him.  He doesn't really communicate --
21             MR. DANDAR:  I have his e-mail address.
22             THE COURT:  Okay.  Then I'm going to set a
23        hearing, and we'll just do this on a date certain so
24        that he can be noticed.
25             And he apparently has gotten a copy of this?
 1        This is the opposition --
 2             MR. DANDAR:  Oh.  All right.
 3             THE COURT:  Opposition of the defendant Church
 4        of Scientology Flag Service Organization to H. Keith
 5        Henson's motion for leave to file amicus brief.
 6             So I'm going to file Mr. Henson's motion for
 7        leave to file amicus brief, and the church's
 8        opposition thereto, Thursday at noon.
 9             MR. DANDAR:  Would you --
10             THE COURT:  Oh -- well, no.  Thursday after
11        lunch.  1:30.
12             MR. DANDAR:  Would you permit him to appear by
13        phone?  I don't think -- I think this man is a
14        person of no means --
15             THE COURT:  You know, the truth of the matter
16        is that I think -- what I do remember reading was I
17        read this man's a fugitive of justice.  So I don't
18        think I'm going to afford him that.
19             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
20             THE COURT:  But I would normally -- and you
21        must tell him in the e-mail, that it's not that I'm
22        trying to be punitive here.  But when somebody's a
23        fugitive from our country, we just don't open up our
24        process to them as we might another Canadian person.
25        Which I certainly would.
 1             So no.  If he wants to appear, he needs to
 2        appear in person.  Or by counsel.
 3             MR. DANDAR:  Or by counsel.
 4             THE COURT:  Or by counsel.
 5             So if he wants to have someone here on his
 6        behalf and he wants to designate somebody, I
 7        certainly will hear from them.
 8             MR. DANDAR:  That certainly will not be me.
 9             THE COURT:  Well --
10             And as I said, I can only state that in my
11        brief looking at it, it was not a -- an amicus brief
12        that would be of any -- like a normal amicus brief.
13             Okay.  Now, before we get started on the
14        testimony --
15             So that's the time we're going to hear it.
16        Would you all remind me?  I'll forget.
17             Will you, Mr. Dandar, then, take it upon
18        yourself to give him a notice of hearing; that I'm
19        going to hear his motion --
20             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
21             THE COURT:  -- Thursday at 1:30?
22             Now, if he says he can't be here and he -- this
23        is not an urgent matter.  So if he says he can't be
24        here but he wants to hire a lawyer and have it
25        argued, he can orally tell you he wants it continued
 1        and I'll just hold on to it, we'll hear it at a
 2        somewhat more convenient time.
 3             Okay.  Now --
 4             MR. DANDAR:  Actually, Judge, I could probably
 5        e-mail him while we're sitting here in court.
 6             THE COURT:  That's all right.  That's not --
 7        you know, it's not urgent.
 8             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
 9             THE COURT:  All right.  Now, the -- there was a
10        request for production yesterday and you have now
11        responded to it.  You have seen the response, have
12        you?
13             MR. FUGATE:  I have seen the response.  But I
14        do note it asks for 1099s and W-2s, not Mr. Prince's
15        tax returns.  And I think the 1099s should be --
16             MR. DANDAR:  Well, we produced those.
17             MR. FUGATE:  You know what?  To save time, I'll
18        go through this with Ms. West and Mr. Dandar, 'cause
19        I can show him what was produced.  I've got copies
20        of them.
21             THE COURT:  Well, let's put this aside, then.
22             Madam Clerk, this is an original.  I'm going to
23        file it with you.  This needs to be filed in the
24        court file.
25             If you need me to resolve anything on that,
 1        why, bring it to my attention.
 2             MR. FUGATE:  Thank you.
 3             THE COURT:  Now I think that's all we have
 4        outstanding for the moment.
 5             Your opposition -- is this -- this is not the
 6        original.  This would be my courtesy copy.
 7             MR. LIEBERMAN:  That's right.  We filed an
 8        original.
 9             THE COURT:  Okay.  I'm ready for Mr. Prince.
10             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  Thank you.
11             THE COURT:  He's still under oath.  Same oath
12        he's taken.  You only have to take it once.
13             You may continue, Mr. Dandar.
14             MR. DANDAR:  Thank you.
15             THE COURT:  Mr. Wein, you're going to hear some
16        unusual evidentiary rulings here, because we're
17        dealing with things like, perhaps, state of mind of
18        your client.  However, you don't have -- you're
19        just -- your client is nothing but a witness in this
20        hearing.  Therefore, as I told Mr. Battaglia
21        yesterday --
22             MR. WEIN:  I understand I can listen but I
23        shouldn't be standing up and objecting.
24             THE COURT:  That's correct.
25             And you might think, "What in the world kind of
 1        rulings is she making?  She doesn't understand
 2        anything about the rules of evidence."  This is an
 3        unusual hearing with unusual rules, and we've got
 4        some objections that have been made and will be
 5        preserved, that have been made, First Amendment
 6        objections, expert objections, stuff like that, that
 7        are preserved.  So you might hear triple hearsay
 8        come in in this hearing.  It's just an unusual
 9        hearing.  So --
10             MR. WEINBERG:  So it's both the lawyers that
11        aren't objecting --
12             THE COURT:  Yeah.  When you hear that --
13             MR. WEINBERG:  (Inaudible.)
14             THE COURT:  When the lawyers don't object --
15             MR. WEINBERG:  (Inaudible, simultaneous
16        speakers.)
17             THE COURT:  -- just understand that we're
18        involved in somewhat of an unusual hearing, and I've
19        made some somewhat unusual evidentiary rulings
20        already.  So we're --
21             MR. WEIN:  Yes, your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  -- taking it from there.
23             Continue.
24            __________________________________________
 2        Q    Mr. Prince, I'm not sure I asked you this question
 3   yesterday or not, but are you aware that Mr. Minton received
 4   from me any information concerning any of the mediations in
 5   this wrongful death case?
 6        A    No, I am not.
 7        Q    Did Mr. Minton ever talk to you and say, "Oh, Ken
 8   Dandar told me this about the mediation and what was said at
 9   the mediation"?
10        A    No, he did not.
11        Q    Now, before you left the Church of Scientology,
12   how many years did you know -- personally know David
13   Miscavige?
14        A    I'd say about 12 years.
15        Q    And yesterday you said you were a friend of David
16   Miscavige?
17        A    I said we'd been friends; we had been friends,
18   close friends, at a point in time.
19        Q    Okay.  When did that friendship end, if at all?
20        A    Well, it's been quite a while since we've talked
21   to each other.  Probably -- you know, if we talked to each
22   other -- I don't know -- maybe we could still find some
23   friendship there.  But we haven't talked for quite a while.
24        Q    Well, give us a year.  When did you last talk to
25   him?
 1        A    '92.
 2        Q    And is '92 the year that you were no longer a Sea
 3   Org member?
 4        A    '92 is the year that I left.
 5        Q    Okay.  And prior to leaving, did you still
 6   consider him to be your friend?
 7        A    Yes, I did.
 8        Q    Okay.  And did he work with you in RTC when you
 9   were deputy inspector general?
10        A    Yes, he did.  And as a matter of fact, more often
11   than not I would report to him.
12        Q    Rather than Vicki Aznaran?
13        A    Together with Vicki Aznaran or without Vicki
14   Aznaran.
15        Q    Can you describe to the court his management
16   style?
17        A    Well, same management style that's pretty much
18   taught throughout the management series of Scientology,
19   wherein an executive is expected to know about or be in
20   control of all areas underneath the executive.
21             Normally when you have a person that's high in the
22   organizational chart in Scientology, you'll have a
23   seven-division org board.  The person that is over that
24   activity has to know the details of what's going on in all
25   of those seven divisions.  Each division may be having three
 1   separate departments, as many as three separate departments,
 2   and different units within the department.  So there could
 3   be a lot of people there.  There is provisions for
 4   inspecting, getting information, and on and on and on, with
 5   that.  But it's very much expected to know everything.
 6             But it certainly gets carried to an extreme, or
 7   certainly was carried on to an extreme during my tenure
 8   there, in that certain sections or areas would be
 9   micromanaged to the point where the staff in that area could
10   only act on orders and comply with orders, comply with
11   command intention, comply with programs.  There was not a
12   lot of original thought process going on in some areas by
13   staff.
14        Q    How far down the org board did you personally
15   observe Mr. Miscavige micromanaging during your tenure?
16        A    All the way down to the janitor.
17        Q    Really.
18        A    Yeah.
19        Q    Would he manage that way with RTC or would he go
20   outside of RTC?
21        A    Would go outside of RTC.  There's plenty of
22   examples of that.
23        Q    Can you give us a few?
24        A    Well --
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Could we just date this?  I was
 1        under the impression that when Mr. Prince was at
 2        RTC, Mr. Miscavige wasn't.  So can we put a date
 3        when he's talking about?
 4             THE WITNESS:  I certainly will.
 5             THE COURT:  And what was that?
 6             THE WITNESS:  Well, I haven't spoken of any
 7        instance yet, but the instance that I'm about to
 8        talk about right now happened in 1985 -- and I do
 9        believe I've done a declaration about this before --
10        whereby myself, David Miscavige, Vicki Aznaran, Mark
11        Yeager, Mark Ingber, Ray Mithoff, the usual crew,
12        came to the FSO.
14        Q    Flag?
15        A    Flag Service Organization.
16        Q    In Clearwater?
17        A    In Clearwater, Florida.
18             Went through the entire organization, started
19   declaring suppressive persons of staff and public on the
20   spot; people that we didn't want or felt were inappropriate
21   to be in the Flag Service Organization.
22             I've given a declaration about that before.
23             THE COURT:  Have I seen that declaration?
24             MR. DANDAR:  I don't -- I don't think --
25             Was it -- it wasn't in this case, was it?
 1             THE WITNESS:  No.  I believe it was in another
 2        case.
 3             I will certainly find it, when --
 4             THE COURT:  That's all right.  I just didn't
 5        know -- I didn't remember --
 6             MR. DANDAR:  No, it wasn't.
 7             THE COURT:  -- reading it.
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  Does he know what cases?
 9             Was it the Wollersheim case?
10             THE WITNESS:  I believe it may have been.
11        A    There's another instance that was produced and
12   written about by KSW News or Scientology News, where again
13   the usual crew -- myself, Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock, Ray
14   Mithoff, Mark Ingber, Mark Yeager, several Scientology
15   attorneys -- went to San Francisco to have a mission
16   holders' conference with the current mission holders.
17             THE COURT:  Go to the mission --
18             THE WITNESS:  Mission holders.  Mission holders
19        would be like franchise holders, organization --
20             The Scientology organization is one thing.
21        Then you can have a franchise of that which is
22        called a mission.  And the mission holder would be
23        the owner of the mission.
24             THE COURT:  I see.
25        A    Anyway, we went up to San Francisco to have a
 1   mission holders' conference.  And prior to actually having
 2   the conference, we stopped in a local Scientology
 3   organization, the San Francisco organization, went through
 4   the entire organization, spoke to everyone in the
 5   organization, and removed the executive from the
 6   organization, removed other people, and left.
 8        Q    What gave you the power --
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  Could you please date that one
10        too, please?
12        Q    What year was that?
13        A    That one was 1982 -- late '82 or very early '83,
14   as I recall.
15        Q    And what gave Mr. Miscavige and your group the
16   power to go into a separate corporation, the San Francisco
17   organization, and remove officers of the corporation?
18        A    This is the subject of something I've also given
19   extensive testimony and declaration about, because it goes
20   to alter-ego within Scientology.
21             But there's a thing called mission tech, where Sea
22   Org members can get together on orders based on Sea Org
23   programs, and go into any organization and take it over
24   completely and remove its executives, alter, change its
25   policy, change its board of directors, change whatever it
 1   wants to.  And once it deems that the activity is performing
 2   to the expected standard, then the mission will pull out.
 3   Normally these missions last for two, three weeks.
 4        Q    So it has to do --
 5             THE COURT:  Mission --
 6             I'm sorry, Mr. Dandar.  We must be driving you
 7        crazy.
 8             The mission lasts for two or three weeks,
 9        meaning the mission church or the mission of these
10        folks that are going in to take a look?
11             THE WITNESS:  The mission of these folks going
12        in to take a look --
13             THE COURT:  Okay.
14             THE WITNESS:  -- your Honor.
16        Q    And the officers of the corporation are removed
17   because they're doing --
18             I mean, what's the reason for that?  Let's talk
19   about the San Francisco organization.
20             THE COURT:  Why is that relevant?
21             MR. DANDAR:  It's the power of the Sea Org,
22        which is one of the issues raised at this hearing.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  But it's not an issue at this
24        hearing.  It may be an issue he's trying to raise,
25        but the issue at this hearing is whether or not, A,
 1        there was misconduct by Mr. Dandar and others; and
 2        B, whether or not there was a basis to allege that
 3        David Miscavige had ordered the killing, death of
 4        Lisa McPherson.  Not Sea Org, none of that.
 5             THE COURT:  Well, part of the allegation was he
 6        was the head of the Sea Org, which was by --
 7             That is an issue.
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  But it's -- it -- Mr. Miscavige,
 9        as we know, is not a party, because he didn't
10        pursue -- that was the way they got him to be a
11        party, by saying he was outside of the contract --
12             THE COURT:  I --
13             MR. WEINBERG:  -- and --
14             THE COURT:  -- understand that, Counsel.  But
15        the allegation in the complaint that you are trying
16        to get a summary judgment on and -- and have
17        dismissed as false is that David Miscavige did these
18        certain things.  And that still is part of the
19        complaint, whether he's a party or not.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  There's a lot of accusations in
21        the complaint that I guess Mr. Dandar could have
22        this hearing go for the next three months about, but
23        that isn't a central --
24             I've said my piece.
25             THE COURT:  Thank you.
 2        Q    So Mr. Prince, you and your party, which included
 3   Mr. Miscavige, ousting the corporate officers of the San
 4   Francisco corporation, what -- what gave them the power to
 5   do that?
 6        A    Again, it was just Sea Org -- it's called Sea Org
 7   mission tech, where a person in the Sea Org, called a
 8   mission op, or operator -- mission ops, it's called -- will
 9   put together a set of, like, project order to get done in
10   the organization.  They may call for removing the
11   executives; it may call for investigating and then removing
12   upon determination; it may call for training; it may call
13   for correction.
14        Q    And back in late '82, early '83, when you and
15   Miscavige and the others went to San Francisco, who was the
16   head of the Sea Org?
17        A    David Miscavige.
18        Q    And when you left in '92 --
19             THE COURT:  Mr. Hubbard was still alive then?
20             THE WITNESS:  In 1992, yes.
21             MR. DANDAR:  No, '82.
22             THE COURT:  '82.
23             THE WITNESS:  Oh.  '82.  Yes.  I'm sorry.
24             THE COURT:  And he was not the head of the Sea
25        Org?
 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, he was.  He was the
 2        commodore.
 3             But you know, we were going through this whole
 4        song and dance to try to get tax-exempt status for
 5        the various organizations of Scientology, and the
 6        problem came up where I guess it was determined that
 7        L. Ron Hubbard -- it was found that L. Ron Hubbard
 8        was the managing agent of Scientology and the Sea
 9        Org.  And so Mr. Hubbard, by that time, had really
10        separated himself for the purposes of allowing this
11        church entity -- these Scientology entities to get
12        tax-exempt status.  He had kind of separated himself
13        totally from Scientology activity.
14             THE COURT:  Okay.
16        Q    So when he separated himself, who took over as the
17   head of the Sea Org?
18        A    Miscavige.  David Miscavige.
19        Q    And when you left in '92, who was the head of the
20   Sea Org?
21        A    David Miscavige.
22        Q    Was there anyone in the Sea Org that had equal or
23   greater rank than David Miscavige from '82 to '92 when you
24   left?
25        A    At the time before I left, David Miscavige -- this
 1   whole thing with brevet rank and being a captain and
 2   stuff -- this is something that happened, I believe, later,
 3   after I was done there.
 4             Mr. Miscavige derives his authority from being the
 5   chairman of the board of nearly every -- all of the major
 6   corporations.  He's on the board of directors somehow, where
 7   he derives --
 8             And then also, as far as Sea Org is concerned,
 9   Miscavige --
10             I mean, basically, L. Ron Hubbard passed the torch
11   to Miscavige.  He didn't pass it to Miscavige; he passed it
12   on to Pat and Annie Broeker.  Miscavige got rid of Pat and
13   Annie Broeker, so effectively took control of Scientology.
14        Q    And did he take control of Scientology as the
15   chairman of the board of some corporation or through the Sea
16   Org?
17        A    He took control of Scientology through -- by
18   corporate means.  And he was able to --
19             You see -- you see, this may be a little
20   confusing, so I think this is worth -- takes a moment to
21   explain.
22             The Sea Org operates on not only these green
23   policy letters and these red bulletins that we've seen, but
24   the Sea Org has its own issues and issue types that it
25   operates on.  And they're called Flag orders.  Flag
 1   orders -- you know, they supersede corporate boundaries;
 2   supersede posts or positions or whatever.
 3        A    So Flag orders -- L. Ron -- the last Flag order
 4   that he wrote, he turned over Scientology to Pat and Annie
 5   Broeker.  He called them loyal officers.  Loyal officers is
 6   a term that comes up from reading Scientology's,
 7   quote/unquote, advance materials.  That was -- loyal
 8   officers were supposed to be the highest rank in
 9   Scientology.
10             Miscavige -- after L. Ron Hubbard passed,
11   Miscavige cancelled that issue, did not let Pat and Annie --
12             THE COURT:  We don't really need to go there,
13        do we?
14             MR. DANDAR:  Well, I'm leading up to one
15        question.
16             THE COURT:  Okay.
17        A    Anyway, he effectively took it over.
19        Q    All right.  Now, why is it that paragraph 34 --
20   based on your affidavit, why is it that it alleges that
21   David Miscavige, outside of anyone else, would be the person
22   who would have given this order to end cycle?
23        A    Well, I think what my affidavit actually says
24   is -- is David Miscavige would have sat there with Ray
25   Mithoff, with Marty Rathbun, the people that meet, to -- to
 1   make sure that the flaps within Scientology that are a
 2   threat are dealt with.  I think what I said there was that
 3   those three people would have gotten together and decided --
 4             THE COURT:  Ray Mithoff and who else?
 5             THE WITNESS:  Marty Rathbun.
 6             MR. DANDAR:  R-a-t-h-b-u-n.
 7             THE WITNESS:  Would have sat there with full
 8        knowledge and information of what was going on with
 9        Lisa McPherson.  And instead of letting her be taken
10        to a hospital, would have told these people to just
11        let her stay there, and let's see what happens here.
12        Let's continue.  See if we can, you know, finish the
13        introspection rundown.  Don't put her on any line
14        where she can tell a story about what's happening to
15        her.
16             In other words, let her die.  If she dies,
17        that's what happens.
19        Q    Now, what if the -- based upon your tenure and
20   your experience of working with Mr. Miscavige, Mr. Rathbun,
21   Mr. -- I've forgotten the third name.
22        A    Mithoff.
23        Q    Mithoff.
24             If Mr. Mithoff and Mr. Rathbun said, "No, no, no.
25   We have these reports, that she needs to -- she's not
 1   doing -- she's getting worse.  She needs to go to the
 2   hospital.  Send her to the hospital," and Mr. Miscavige
 3   says, "No.  We're not going to do that," out of those three,
 4   who prevails?
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  This is just rank
 6        speculation.
 7             THE COURT:  It would appear to be so, except I
 8        believe he indicated, back when he was at RTC, these
 9        same people were there?
10             MR. WEINBERG:  No.  Mr. Mithoff was in CSI.
11        Mr. Rathbun was not in RTC.
12             I -- I mean, he --
14        Q    Mr. Prince --
15             MR. WEINBERG:  -- at the time --
16             THE COURT:  I'm going to allow it, because I
17        know what the answer is.  I mean --
19        Q    Mr. Prince, who was in RTC when you were in RTC,
20   at these meetings?
21             MR. WEINBERG:  No --
22        A    The only people that were in RTC were myself and
23   Vicki Aznaran.  David Miscavige was the chairman of the
24   board of Author Services, a for-profit corporation that was
25   L. Ron Hubbard's publishing company.  However, that meant
 1   nothing in relationship to who were the principals of
 2   Scientology, who were directing -- directing the actions of
 3   Scientology as a whole.  And the people that were doing that
 4   were David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran, Mark Yeager,
 5   Mark Ingber, Lyman Spurlock.
 6             THE COURT:  Was there a majority vote taken?
 7             THE WITNESS:  There's no such thing as a vote
 8        in the Sea Org, unless you're deciding on a quality
 9        of food, in Scientology.
10             THE COURT:  If you disagree on a decision, who
11        made the final call?
12             THE WITNESS:  If you disagreed on a decision --
13        if you disagreed with someone that was above you,
14        you would be sent for correction to straighten out
15        your --
16             THE COURT:  Look, if you folks are sitting
17        around trying to decide something -- you and all
18        these people, you said, were kind of a -- there --
19        and you disagreed; you know, you said, "I think this
20        should happen," Ms. Aznaran said, "I think this
21        should happen," David Miscavige said, "I think this
22        should happen," who made the call?
23             THE WITNESS:  Ultimately the person who would
24        have the authority and everyone would have to follow
25        would be Mr. Miscavige.
 1             THE COURT:  So he -- he made the final call.
 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, he would say, "Okay.  Yeah.
 3        This is how you do it."
 5        Q    Would he get input from the others for --
 6        A    Yes.  I mean, that happened.  But the purpose -- I
 7   mean, you know -- and I just want to clear this picture --
 8   make this picture a little bit more clearer as to how it
 9   actually works.
10             Mr. -- Mr. Mithoff, based on how it worked when I
11   was there -- I'm just going to explain this.
12             Mr. Mithoff would have brought this situation to
13   the attention of Mr. Rathbun.  Mr. Rathbun would have looked
14   over this -- okay.  And again, in my mind, I'm not going
15   with the theory that she was crazy when they took her to the
16   hospital; I'm not going with the theory that she just lay
17   there and wanted to be there; I'm going with the theory
18   that, just like she said, she wanted to leave.  She was
19   trying to leave.  They incarcerated her, falsely
20   incarcerated her, wouldn't let her leave.
21             So Mr. Mithoff would have brought it to
22   Mr. Rathbun's attention.  Because you have a threat.  You
23   have a person that is now escalated.  They want to get out.
24   And now they're sick.  It's going bad -- worse to bad.
25             Mr. Mithoff would have taken and put an exact
 1   instructions in her folder, went over it with Mr. Rathbun.
 2   And at the meeting they would have sat down with
 3   Mr. Miscavige and said, "This is the situation.  This is the
 4   flap.  This is the handling."  If their handling included
 5   not taking her to the hospital and keeping her there and
 6   doing Scientology on her, Mr. Miscavige would have said,
 7   "Fine."  If their handling would have been, "Look, I think
 8   we better take this risk even though she is antagonistic,
 9   and we got to send her to the hospital," it is my opinion
10   that his answer would have been, "No.  You leave her right
11   there."
12        Q    And why is that?  What do you base that opinion
13   on?
14        A    I base that opinion on the fact that protecting
15   Scientology is the ultimate goal of any Scientologist,
16   irrespective of friend, family, business.  Scientology comes
17   first.  Because the idea in Scientology is that
18   Scientology's going to save the world.  And if you lose
19   Scientology, you lose the world.  So it's the greatest good
20   to protect Scientology than it would be to be concerned
21   about an individual, or a group, for that matter.
22        Q    Now, are you familiar with the term and policy
23   letter called "bypass"?
24        A    Yes, I am.
25        Q    All right.  Can you tell the court what that is?
 1        A    Bypass is a situation -- I guess I can just do a
 2   real example here using the court reporter.  If this court
 3   reporter here were typing transcripts and she were making
 4   too many errors, someone else would have to come in here and
 5   take over her job and -- while she goes and gets fixed or
 6   gets corrected, and takes over her actual job, and does the
 7   job until she's able to perform it again.
 8        Q    Do you have an opinion whether or not, in Lisa
 9   McPherson's case, bypass would have come into play?
10             THE COURT:  I don't understand that.  I'm
11        sorry.  Maybe I just didn't understand the example.
12        Maybe --
13             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I'll try to do another
14        example, your Honor.
15             THE COURT:  Bypass, to me, means you jump over
16        somebody or you go around someone.
17             THE WITNESS:  Well, you actually displace that
18        person and assume their position.
19             THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  Okay.
20             THE WITNESS:  Until they can do the job
21        correctly.
22             THE COURT:  Okay.
24        Q    Let me show you --
25             THE COURT:  I don't think he answered your
 1        question.  I interrupted him.  So if you want an
 2        answer, do you --
 3             MR. DANDAR:  Well, I'm going --
 4             THE COURT:  In the Lisa McPherson case --
 5             MR. DANDAR:  No --
 6             THE COURT:  -- did bypass occur?
 7             MR. DANDAR:  I'm going to ask a question first.
 8             THE COURT:  Okay.
 9             MR. DANDAR:  I'm going to interrupt myself.
10             THE COURT:  All right.
12        Q    Let me show you what I have marked as Plaintiff's
13   Exhibit 127, see if you can identify this.
14        A    Okay.
15        Q    Can you identify this?
16        A    Yes, I can.  This is what's commonly referred to
17   as a CBO, central bureau order.  It's another issue type
18   that Scientology puts out, you know, like a bulletin or a
19   policy letter.  And this particular issue talks about senior
20   management bypassing into lower areas or lower units within
21   the Scientology infrastructure.
22        Q    Under what circumstances would that happen?
23        A    This would happen at any point where the senior
24   officer or senior body felt that there was a situation going
25   on in a lower area that wasn't being dealt with to par.
 1        Q    Now, do you have an opinion, based upon your
 2   experience in Scientology, whether or not, after your review
 3   of the Lisa McPherson matter, the policy bypass would have
 4   come into play?
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to competence.  I
 6        don't even know what this is.  I mean, this is not
 7        written by L. Ron Hubbard, apparently.  It's not in
 8        the green volumes or the red volumes.  There's been
 9        no -- there's been no --
10             And Mr. Prince said he knew what bypass was.
11        Well -- but -- and now he's going to apply it to
12        some hypothetical situation that he doesn't have any
13        personal knowledge of?
14             THE WITNESS:  I think the issue speaks for --
15             THE COURT:  I --
16             THE WITNESS:  -- itself.
17             THE COURT:  I think for this purpose of this
18        hearing, I just want to hear everything he has to
19        say.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.  I just --
21             THE COURT:  So I'm going to allow it.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  Every now and then, I just need
23        to get up to renew --
24             THE COURT:  All right.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  -- my --
 1             Just so Mr. Wein --
 2             Is it Wein --
 3             MR. WEIN:  Yeah.
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. -- I'm "wine," and he's
 5        "ween."
 6             THE COURT:  I want to hear everything --
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
 8             THE COURT:  -- because I want to find out all
 9        the things that Mr. Prince may have, as Mr. Dandar's
10        consultant --
11             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
12             THE COURT:  -- told him about, so that I can
13        have some understanding of the complaint and the
14        allegations you've made.  And so I'm going to allow
15        it.
17        Q    Have you seen this document before today,
18   Mr. Prince?
19        A    Yes, I have.
20        Q    And under what circumstances have you seen that?
21        A    I have seen this during messenger training.
22             I had to, myself -- when I went to Gilman Hot
23   Springs in 1982, I became what's called a commodore
24   messenger.  And I've explained that endlessly too.  It's a
25   person -- it's an emissary of L. Ron Hubbard who has the
 1   same authority as L. Ron Hubbard.  When they come with an
 2   order to an area, it's like L. Ron Hubbard giving an order
 3   to an area.  So you know, this has the highest level of
 4   priority, as far as compliance's concerned.
 5             I became a commodore's messenger.  And as part of
 6   being a commodore's messenger, this was the first time in my
 7   study pack on the duties of commodore's messenger that I
 8   read this particular issue.
 9        Q    Okay.  And do you have an opinion whether or not
10   this bypass would come into play in any part of the matter
11   concerning Lisa McPherson?
12        A    I think it would have certainly come into play,
13   given the fact that Mrs. McPherson was not being cooperative
14   or -- and actually intended to leave Scientology.  And this
15   was consistent in what she was saying.  So that's like a
16   breach of technology.  There's no such thing as Scientology
17   not working, as far as the written materials are concerned.
18   If Scientology doesn't work, then something is wrong with
19   the individual.  Somebody has done something wrong or
20   somebody has misapplied it.
21             So if you have a person in the extreme situation
22   like Lisa was, that continued, that would be reason for
23   bypass; to come in and, you know, deal with it specifically.
24        Q    Who gets involved when bypass happens?
25        A    For the FSO?
 1        Q    Yes.
 2        A    Normally Ray Mithoff.
 3        Q    In what position?
 4        A    He's the senior technical person internationally
 5   for Scientology.  The Flag Service Organization is the
 6   senior mecca of technical perfection as far as Scientology
 7   is concerned, so the -- the Flag Service Organization is
 8   certainly one of the major providences of the senior CS
 9   international.
10        Q    Now, a while back, you know, in my office, you
11   pulled out an OW of Lisa McPherson --
12             THE COURT:  OW?
13             MR. DANDAR:  Overt withhold, abbreviated OW.
15        Q    -- that she wrote in the fall of '95, concerning
16   February of '95, where she mentioned management had to get
17   involved?  Do you recall that?
18        A    Yes.  This was a -- right around the first time I
19   believe that Lisa started experiencing severe difficulty
20   with Scientology, as far as her relationship to it.  And she
21   mentioned that whatever was going on with her was -- you
22   know, technically it resulted in a bypass by senior
23   management; a bypass of the Flag Service Organization, to
24   specifically help her and deal with her situation.
25        Q    Now, we already have in evidence and marked as
 1   Exhibit 96 --
 2             And this is an extra copy.
 3             MR. DANDAR:  And Judge, I'll show it to you if
 4        you need to see it again.
 6        Q    But it's the Heide Negro (sic) isolation watch
 7   report.
 8             Did you see that before?
 9        A    Yes, I did.
10        Q    And on the second page it talks about --
11             THE COURT:  That's in evidence?
12             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  96.
13             THE COURT:  Oh, okay.  It's been a long time.
14             THE WITNESS:  I think she needs --
15             MR. DANDAR:  It is a long time.
16             THE COURT:  Thank you.
18        Q    On the second page, first paragraph of the last
19   sentence --
20             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, hold on.  Mr. -- I object
21        to his competence -- he has no personal knowledge of
22        any of this.
23             THE COURT:  I don't even know what the question
24        is going to be, so --
25             MR. WEINBERG:  He's now going into
 1        somebody's --
 2             THE COURT:  Well, you don't know what he's
 3        going to go into because you haven't heard the
 4        question.  So let's hear it and I'll --
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  If I could --
 6             THE COURT:  Go on ahead with your question.
 8        Q    Okay.  The first paragraph, it says that this data
 9   came originally from FSO CS, Alain Kartuzinski, who was in
10   charge of John Taylor's correction.
11             Who --
12             THE COURT:  See, I don't even know where you're
13        reading from.
14             MR. DANDAR:  I'm sorry.  First paragraph on
15        page 2.
16             THE COURT:  Oh.  Page 2.
17             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  I'm sorry.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.
20        Q    "This was later corrected by a telex from Mr. Ray
21   Mithoff, who indicated that the RD --" I guess that's
22   rundown --
23        A    Right.
24        Q    "-- in fact could be delivered, at which point
25   delivery commenced."
 1             Now, what does that mean in plain English?
 2        A    There was a question of whether or not this person
 3   could be given the introspection rundown.  Alain Kartuzinski
 4   apparently thought that no one was qualified at this
 5   particular location, which is their advanced organization in
 6   the United Kingdom.  This person was -- apparently had
 7   similar symptoms to what Lisa and other people were having
 8   that have that problem.
 9             And Mr. Mithoff -- this, again -- at management,
10   was alerted.  And Mr. Mithoff indicated that the rundown
11   could be given, because Mr. Mithoff is the senior-most
12   technical person within the Scientology infrastructure.
13             Senior FSO CS Alain Kartuzinski -- any auditor or
14   case supervisor located here in Clearwater, Florida,
15   operating in the Ft. Harrison Hotel and the Sandcastle, are
16   considered to be the cream of the crop as far as auditors
17   and technically trained people are concerned.
18        Q    Okay.  Well, are you aware of evidence that you've
19   seen where David Miscavige has become personally involved in
20   the matters concerning Lisa McPherson?
21        A    One thing that I saw where he actually comes out
22   himself was a letter that was written to Mr. Bernie McCabe
23   concerning dismissing the criminal case that was brought
24   against Scientology for Lisa McPherson's death.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, Mr. Dandar's not
 1        taking the position that this justifies his
 2        accusation that David Miscavige murdered Lisa
 3        McPherson, whatever he's got to show you, that
 4        happened in the criminal investigation.
 5             THE COURT:  No.  I think what he's about to
 6        show me, based on his question, is something that
 7        indicates that David Miscavige knew about the Lisa
 8        McPherson case.  I don't think --
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I think --
10             THE COURT:  -- that that --
11             MR. WEINBERG:  -- the whole world knew about
12        the Lisa McPherson case once there were people --
13        once the church was indicted and people were walking
14        around with picket signs.
15             THE COURT:  We have to read it, 'cause I don't
16        know what it is.
18        Q    Plaintiff's 128.  Is that the letter you're
19   referring to, Mr. Prince?
20        A    Yes, it is.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, could I have a copy,
22        please?
23             MR. DANDAR:  Oh.
24        A    Yeah.
 2        Q    Based upon your experience as a Scientology
 3   executive in RTC, why would RTC have anything to do or be
 4   involved with the Lisa McPherson matter?
 5        A    I think if you just look at the second paragraph
 6   on page 7 of this letter, the last sentence, I think that
 7   pretty much says it all.  It says, "Therefore, if rapid,
 8   responsible and meaningful resolution of this case is to be
 9   achieved --"
10             THE COURT:  Just a second.  I can't find out
11        where you are.  Page 7, what?
12             THE WITNESS:  Second paragraph.  Last sentence
13        in the second paragraph.
14             THE COURT:  All right.
15             THE WITNESS:  Where it says, "Therefore, if
16        rapid, responsible and meaningful resolution of this
17        case is to be achieved, you and I are the persons to
18        do it."
20        Q    You, meaning Mr. McCabe, and I, meaning Mr. --
21        A    Miscavige.
22        Q    -- Miscavige?
23        A    Correct.
24        Q    Why would -- again, why would Mr. Miscavige then
25   be personally involved in the Lisa McPherson matter?
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  Again --
 2        A    Again, bypass --
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  -- isn't this pure speculation
 4        on his part?
 5             THE COURT:  Well, I think that -- that --
 6             I would read this that this was after the
 7        charge was brought.
 8             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
 9             THE COURT:  And that Mr. Miscavige, as the
10        ecclesiastical head of the church against whom a
11        charge was brought, was saying, "If this is going to
12        be resolved, Mr. McCabe, as the state attorney, and
13        I, as the head of this church, need to sit down and
14        try to resolve it."
15             MR. WEINBERG:  And of course, he was not
16        successful at that point, because the case continued
17        for another year.  And we all know how it --
18             THE COURT:  However, we perhaps need to hear
19        from Mr. Prince how he believes that statement shows
20        that Mr. Miscavige was involved before Lisa
21        McPherson died.  Which is what your point of the
22        question --
23             MR. DANDAR:  That's where I'm heading, yes.
24             THE COURT:  Okay.
 2        Q    How does that -- how can you explain that as
 3   reference to, as the judge just said --
 4        A    I think the letter, you know, indicates
 5   Mr. Miscavige's broad knowledge of every step of the
 6   criminal case, you know.  And there's no obvious evidence
 7   that he's had involvement in this case, but it would
 8   certainly be my opinion that he has.  Because again, this is
 9   a flap.  It's a bypass.
10             THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Prince, let me just ask
11        you what would seemingly be a logical question to
12        me:
13             You could certainly have a situation -- I'm not
14        saying this is true or not true.  But you could
15        have -- certainly have a situation where somebody
16        didn't know about somebody being ill, but when
17        criminal charges were filed, because that person
18        died, if they're the head, they'd become involved
19        and take over from that point.
20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.  That is a
21        rational line of thinking for, you know, regular
22        world activities.  But in Scientology, these -- you
23        know, Scientology --
24             THE COURT:  I'm not saying that --
25             THE WITNESS:  -- is extremely --
 1             THE COURT:  -- Mr. Miscavige didn't know.
 2             THE WITNESS:  Right.
 3             THE COURT:  I am saying that another
 4        explanation -- I mean, this is about a criminal
 5        charge --
 6             THE WITNESS:  Right.
 7             THE COURT:  -- right?
 8             THE WITNESS:  Right.
 9             THE COURT:  And so you could certainly have --
10             THE WITNESS:  Against the Flag Service
11        Organization.
12             THE COURT:  Yeah.
13             You could have a situation where the
14        ecclesiastical head, after criminal charges are
15        filed, says, "Let's you and I sit down and see if we
16        can resolve this criminal case."
17             THE WITNESS:  Right.
18             Well, you know, where are the letters from the
19        corporate heads of the Flag Service Organization,
20        doing the same thing with Mr. McCabe?
21             THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Where are the what?
22             THE WITNESS:  The corporate officers of the
23        Flag Service Organization.  Where's Mr. Ben Shaw's
24        letter to Mr. McCabe to sort this out?  Why does
25        this necessitate Mr. Miscavige?  This is against the
 1        Flag Service Organization.
 2             THE COURT:  Well, because as I understand it,
 3        Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the
 4        Church of Scientology.
 5             THE WITNESS:  Every one of them.
 6             THE COURT:  Every one of them.
 7             THE WITNESS:  Right.
 8             THE COURT:  Yeah.  There's no disagreement.
 9             So as I said, I can -- I'm not saying that
10        Mr. Miscavige did or did not know about Lisa
11        McPherson's situation when she was at the Ft.
12        Harrison Hotel.  Because quite frankly, that's one
13        of the issues.
14             But this letter just simply says that, "I as
15        the head of this church, all of them, want to sit
16        down with you and resolve this case."
17             THE WITNESS:  Right.
18             THE COURT:  So how do you jump from that --
19             THE WITNESS:  Well --
20             THE COURT:  In other words, there's lots of
21        people who have testified that David Miscavige, as
22        chairman of the board of RTC, knew about Lisa
23        McPherson.  There's just no question in their mind.
24             THE WITNESS:  Right.
25             THE COURT:  He would have known.  He would have
 1        known because that's the way business is done.
 2             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
 3             THE COURT:  Sort of.
 4             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
 5             THE COURT:  Okay.  I've heard all that
 6        testimony.  I presume you would testify the same.
 7             But what does this letter add to this?
 8             THE WITNESS:  I -- you know, your Honor, I
 9        think the only purpose of this letter is -- is just
10        to show what we were talking about earlier, when we
11        were talking about the bypass and -- and how, you
12        know, it's a pattern of conduct; how the
13        organization does business.  I think that's the
14        purpose of why this is in here.
15             THE COURT:  Well, if this letter has
16        relevance -- if this letter has relevance, it has
17        relevance to the, I suspect, agreed-to evidence in
18        this case, which is that David Miscavige is the
19        ecclesiastical head of the Church of Scientology,
20        including -- including Flag.
21             MR. DANDAR:  Right.
22             THE COURT:  Including all of the organizations.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  The letter isn't relevant to
24        this proceeding.
25             THE COURT:  No.  It is not relevant to this
 1        proceeding, as I said, except that it might be
 2        relevant to that issue, which I assume is an
 3        agreed-upon issue.
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  The first church in the United
 5        States within 200 years is indicted, it's not
 6        surprising that Mr. Miscavige --
 7             THE COURT:  No, it's not.
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  -- would want to try to find a
 9        resolution to it.
10             THE COURT:  That is true, and that's what I
11        said.  I don't think it has any relevance to this
12        proceeding unless it is to establish that indeed
13        Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the
14        church, including -- including Flag.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  He's the ecclesiastical -- he's
16        the ecclesiastical leader of the churches of
17        Scientology.
18             THE COURT:  Right.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  The religious leader of the
20        Church of Scientology.
21             THE COURT:  Well, ecclesiastical leader and
22        religious leader are the same thing.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  Same thing.  He happens
24        to be the chairman of the board of an organization
25        called RTC, but he's the ecclesiastical or religious
 1        leader of Scientology.
 2             THE COURT:  Right.
 4        Q    Mr. Prince, is Mr. Miscavige the leader of all of
 5   the Scientology churches as -- because he's the COB of RTC
 6   or because he's the captain of the Sea Org?
 7        A    Because he's the captain of the Sea Org.
 8        Q    When Mr. Miscavige was the captain of the Sea Org
 9   and the COB, of the for-profit corporation Office Services,
10   Inc., ASI, was he the head of all of the churches of
11   Scientology as well?
12        A    Well, again, as your Honor correctly pointed out,
13   Mr. Hubbard was alive at that time.
14        Q    Oh, okay.
15        A    Shortly after Mr. Hubbard passed, that was
16   certainly the situation for a moment.
17             But immediately upon the death of Mr. Hubbard and
18   the ousting of Pat and Annie Broeker, Mr. Miscavige assumed
19   control of Religious Technology Center.
20        Q    All right.  And did he do that because he was the
21   chairman of the board of ASI or the captain of the Sea Org?
22        A    Because he was the captain of the Sea Org.  You
23   know, everything is done in the Sea Org with missions.
24             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could he just
25        answer --
 1             THE COURT:  Yes.  He's answered the question.
 2             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I have a document --
 3        actually, it's a notice of filing.
 4             I'm going to have to have the clerk mark this
 5        notebook.  And --
 6             (A discussion was held off the record.)
 7             THE COURT:  All right.  We'll go ahead and take
 8        our morning break since it's very close to that
 9        time.  We'll be in recess till 11:30.
10                (A recess was taken at 11:17 a.m.)
11             (The proceedings resumed at 11:37 a.m.)
12             THE COURT:  You may continue.
13             MR. DANDAR:  What I had marked and what I was
14        about to hand the witness and the court, and not
15        have to make an extra copy for Mr. Weinberg -- which
16        I didn't because, quite frankly, he has all this,
17        but I understand what he's saying.  He should have
18        the same thing I'm handing -- and that's fine.
19        We'll get that done over the lunch break -- is
20        Exhibit 130.  It's a compilation of documents,
21        statements and depositions of staff.
22             But I'm only going to ask this witness about J,
23        which is the narrative investigation of Detective
24        Carrasquillo, April 15th, 1997.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  I object to the use of this
 1        document.  It's just -- it's a -- it's not a sworn
 2        statement; it's not a sworn statement of a witness.
 3        It's just her -- it's a hearsay account of what she
 4        claims -- I guess summarizes what somebody would
 5        have told her.  That's not evidence.
 6             THE COURT:  Well --
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  It's not -- certainly not for --
 8        I think where he's going is that he's offering it
 9        for the truth of the matter asserted.  And it's pure
10        hearsay.
11             THE COURT:  Well, it would be true hearsay if
12        he's offering it for the truth of the matter
13        asserted, but I don't know what he's going to ask
14        this witness.  So let's hear it.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
17        Q    Mr. Prince -- of course, we obtained this
18   document, you know, a year after your affidavit of August of
19   '99 --
20        A    Mm-hmm.
21        Q    -- when this was made a public record --
22             But in paragraph 3, the interview summary of
23   Mr. and Mrs. Ortner, O-r-t-n-e-r, indicates that
24   Mr. Miscavige was staying at the Ft. Harrison Hotel --
25             MR. WEINBERG:  That's what I'm talking about,
 1        your Honor.
 3        Q    -- while they were there, around November 20th of
 4   1995.
 5             Do you -- here's my question:  Do you know of
 6   circumstances or other occasions when Mr. Miscavige would
 7   stay at the Ft. Harrison Hotel?
 8        A    Yes, I do.  Again, I'll refer to the -- to the
 9   video that was played the first day of my testimony where we
10   were having a New Year's Eve event.  He would be there for
11   that.  He would be there for March 13th, which is L. Ron
12   Hubbard's birthday.  They normally have an event at the --
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Are you talking about a specific
14        year?
15        A    -- and --
16             THE WITNESS:  Excuse me?
17             MR. WEINBERG:  About a specific year?
18             THE WITNESS:  No.  I'm talking -- he asked me a
19        question of when normally he would be there.  I'm
20        talking about --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  My objection is the
22        question was whether he stayed there, not whether he
23        was there.  Big difference.  And in this case there
24        is no -- I mean, if this is being offered that
25        Mr. Miscavige was in Clearwater in November or
 1        December of 1995, it's pure hearsay.  And he wasn't.
 2        And if he was --
 3             THE COURT:  I didn't hear --
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  -- he would have obviously --
 5        the state attorney would have done some
 6        investigation on it if that were the case.  And it's
 7        not the case.
 8             But the question was whether he -- whether
 9        Mr. Miscavige ever stayed at the Ft. Harrison Hotel,
10        and Mr. Prince is talking about whether
11        Mr. Miscavige was ever at the Ft. Harrison Hotel,
12        which is completely different.
14        Q    How did you understand the question, Mr. Prince?
15        A    I understood the question as to at what times
16   would Mr. Miscavige likely be at the Ft. Harrison.
17        Q    Okay.  All right.  Well, let's --
18             THE COURT:  I think that has some relevance, if
19        it was anytime around -- in and around the time of
20        Lisa McPherson's stay at the Ft. Harrison.
22        Q    So what events would he normally routinely come to
23   in the Ft. Harrison?
24        A    There would be auditor's date --
25        Q    Which is --
 1        A    -- which is sometime in September; there would be
 2   IAS~--
 3        Q    What's IAS?
 4        A    Excuse me.  International Association of
 5   Scientologists.  They have an event in the summertime, I
 6   think, that's around June or something like that, they have
 7   an IAS event.  The New Year's event.  L. Ron Hubbard
 8   birthday event.
 9        Q    Which is March?
10        A    March 13th.
11             Some of the more common times that I can think of
12   that he would be there.
13        Q    What about non-Scientology holidays such as
14   Thanksgiving?
15        A    Not likely --
16        Q    Okay.
17        A    -- in my experience.
18        Q    Okay.
19             THE COURT:  And the reason he would be at the
20        Ft. Harrison Hotel as opposed to someplace else is
21        because it's the mecca of all --
22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
23             The Ft. Harrison is a very beautiful hotel.
24             THE COURT:  Is that -- mecca of all
25        technology -- mecca of all technology?
 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
 3        Q    Was --
 4             THE COURT:  Now, on a New Year's event, I
 5        thought he was out in California on the tape that I
 6        saw.
 7             THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.  That was right
 8        in the Ft. Harrison.
 9             THE COURT:  Oh, it was?
10             MR. WEINBERG:  You're talking about two
11        different tapes.  The tape that you saw was
12        California.  The tape that Mr. Prince was in, was --
13             THE COURT:  In Clearwater.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  -- in the Ft. Harrison.
15             THE COURT:  Okay.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  That was -- Mr. Prince was 20
17        years ago; your -- I don't know when it was.  2000.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.
19             MR. DANDAR:  It was less than 20 years ago.
21        Q    But anyway, do you -- do you have any recollection
22   of Mr. Miscavige staying at the Ft. Harrison Hotel rather
23   than just showing up for an event?
24        A    Well, when I testified earlier about Mr. Miscavige
25   and myself, Vicki Aznaran, you know, the regular crew coming
 1   into the Flag Service Organization and rearranging and
 2   declaring some people, we stayed there at that time.
 3             I mean, you know, whenever Mr. Miscavige would
 4   come to the Clearwater area, as well as myself, we always
 5   stayed at the Ft. Harrison Hotel.
 6             THE COURT:  What were the dates that Lisa
 7        McPherson was at the Ft. Harrison?
 8             MR. DANDAR:  November the 18th of '95 through
 9        December the 5th of '95.
10             THE COURT:  Do you have any information that
11        would say that David Miscavige was or was not at the
12        Ft. Harrison Hotel on those dates?
13             THE WITNESS:  Your Honor, beyond what
14        Mr. Dandar is presenting here today, I do not.
15             THE COURT:  So regardless, if it weren't for
16        that hearsay document, you have no firsthand
17        knowledge or other way of knowing whether he was
18        there or not.
19             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
20             THE COURT:  Okay.
22        Q    Mr. Prince, one thing I wanted to ask you about
23   that's out of sequence, and that is after you left the
24   Church of Scientology in 1992, did you have occasion after
25   that time to consult with Scientology attorneys?
 1        A    Yes, I did.  I was contacted by Mr. Mike Sutter,
 2   who worked in the Scientology -- worked in the Religious
 3   Technology Center.  He told me that he wanted me to meet
 4   with Mr. Earle Cooley concerning ongoing church litigation.
 5        Q    And who is Mr. Cooley?
 6        A    Mr. Earle Cooley was lead counsel for Scientology
 7   during the early '80s.
 8        Q    And what date or what month and year was this that
 9   Mr. Sutter asked you to meet with Mr. Cooley?
10        A    You know, to the best of my knowledge, I do
11   believe it was 1994.
12             We met in Boston.
13        Q    What was the purpose of that meeting?
14        A    Well, I thought I was going to go there to speak
15   about current legal cases, because that's what they told me
16   they wanted me to speak about.  But in fact, when I got
17   there, it became quite a different show.  They wanted me to
18   reaffirm for them the fact that -- you know, the -- under
19   the -- reaffirm the conditions under which I left
20   Scientology, the documents and things that I was -- felt
21   obligated to sign to leave.  They wanted to update all of
22   that again.
23             So they recorded me and --
24             And I -- and I guess I also found out that they
25   were having trouble in the Wollersheim 4 case, in that --
 1   and they wanted to know if persons such as Vicki Aznaran,
 2   Lawrence Wollersheim, any attorneys, had contacted me to
 3   give testimony concerning Scientology.
 4        Q    And as of that time, had anyone contacted you?
 5        A    No.
 6        Q    And did they pay you for your time?
 7        A    Yes.
 8        Q    How much?
 9        A    I think it was 28- -- 27-, $2,800.
10        Q    Was that the last time you were consulted by any
11   representative of the Church of Scientology on matters such
12   as that?
13        A    I believe so.
14        Q    Okay.  Now, Mr. Prince, you --
15             MR. DANDAR:  And I am going to be jumping
16        around here.
17             THE COURT:  You said this was 1994?
18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
20        Q    All right.  Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit
21   131.  And I have highlighted certain portions of it.  I'm
22   going to direct your attention to certain areas.
23             First of all, can you identify this document?
24        A    Yes.  This is another Scientology issue type.
25   It's called an executive directive.  And this is an
 1   executive directive concerning senior HCO Int.  And it
 2   concerns security situations and threat handlings.
 3        Q    Now at the top it has references, and it has a
 4   bunch of HCO policy documents.  Is that what -- am I reading
 5   that correctly?
 6        A    Yes.  There's four HCO policy letters.  The FO --
 7   there's one Flag order; there's one SPD, which is a
 8   Scientology policy directives; two more HCO PLs, another
 9   SOED, that's a Sea Org executive directive; and a couple of
10   more policy letters.
11        Q    Okay.  And the references for like the Sea Org
12   executive director 4234 international, it says,
13   "Coordination on security and investigation matters,
14   suppressive acts."  Do you see that?
15        A    Yes, I do.
16        Q    Did I read -- maybe I didn't read that right.
17        A    Well, suppressive acts is the HCO PO, 23 December,
18   '65.
19             THE COURT:  What does HCO stand for?
20             THE WITNESS:  Hubbard Communications Office.
22        Q    And the last HCO policy of October 27th, 1964
23   talks -- or concerns physical healing, insanity and sources
24   of trouble.  Do you see that?
25        A    Yes, I do.
 1        Q    All right.  What does this document, mentioning
 2   insanity and healing and sources of trouble, have to do with
 3   security?
 4        A    Well, when you have a -- an insane person or a
 5   source of trouble, potential trouble source within a
 6   Scientology organization, according to its policies, this is
 7   a source of great potential trouble for an organization, be
 8   it a Sea Organization or regular Scientology organization,
 9   and these gives -- it gives the steps of prevention and
10   handling.
11        Q    Is "handling" a word that is used in the policies?
12        A    Yes.
13        Q    And in this particular checklist, it talks
14   about -- the second paragraph, where I've highlighted, uses,
15   "Make sure the situations are actually handled."
16        A    Right.
17        Q    Now, turn to page 2, letter G.
18        A    Okay.
19        Q    First of all, this list is below a paragraph that
20   says the types of security situations, am I reading this
21   correctly, where it says, G, "Attempted suicide cases or PTS
22   Type IIIs and any external or antagonistic connections to
23   these --" are these security issues?
24        A    Absolutely.
25        Q    Do you have an opinion whether or not this
 1   particular checklist would come into play in reference to
 2   the Lisa McPherson matter, in November and December of '95?
 3        A    This -- the date of this issue is the 11th of May,
 4   1991, and it's basically instructing the divisions within
 5   Scientology organizations to coordinate with OSA -- Office
 6   of Special Affairs -- to deal with the situations listed A
 7   through O, Type III -- PTS Type IIIs being one of them, PTS
 8   Type III being the Scientology term for a psychotic.
 9        Q    Mr. Prince, this is, as you said, dated May, 1991.
10   Does it surprise you that it references policy letters that
11   are written in 1959 and 1964 and 1968, et cetera?
12        A    No.  The words of L. Ron Hubbard are eternal to
13   Scientology.
14             MR. DANDAR:  I'd like to move Exhibit 131 in
15        evidence.
16             THE COURT:  Any objection?
17             MR. WEINBERG:  No objection.  I don't know what
18        the relevance is, in light of the fact that there
19        isn't anything about RTC in this document.
20             THE COURT:  It'll be received.
22        Q    All right.  And Mr. Prince, let me show you
23   Exhibit 129.
24             I don't have an extra copy here, for some reason.
25             Oh, I do.  Okay.
 1             Remember yesterday we talked about in order to get
 2   the injectable Valium prescriptions and the chloral hydrate
 3   prescriptions from drugstores, you talk about staff --
 4   somebody filling out what's called a CSW, completed staff
 5   work?
 6        A    Yes.
 7        Q    All right.  This document, Plaintiff's Exhibit
 8   129, do you know where this comes from?
 9        A    Yes.  This comes from the Hubbard Administrative
10   Dictionary, which is a dictionary that defines
11   administrative terms used in Scientology organization.
12        Q    Okay.  And the definition of completed staff work,
13   does that fit within your understanding of what you
14   testified to yesterday?
15        A    Yes, it does.
16             MR. DANDAR:  Like to move 129 into evidence.
17             THE COURT:  It'll be received.
19        Q    Also Mr. Prince, you mentioned several times today
20   that -- when I was asking you about bypass and
21   Mr. Miscavige's role, you mentioned you had prior
22   declarations.  Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 132.
23             First of all, what is 132?
24        A    This is a supplemental declaration that was
25   submitted in the Los Angeles courtrooms on behalf of
 1   plaintiff Lawrence Wollersheim.
 2        Q    And this is your declaration?
 3        A    Yes, it is.
 4        Q    It's dated December 22nd, 1999?
 5        A    Yes.
 6        Q    Is this one of the declarations you were referring
 7   to when you said you -- in your testimony today, that you
 8   had previously filed declarations on the matters that we
 9   talked about?
10        A    No.
11             Let me just scan it here real quick.
12        Q    All right.
13        A    Well, yeah.  I think right -- starting on page 2,
14   under the subtitle Sea Organization, I talk about
15   Scientology missions, meaning, you know, a group of people
16   going into an organization, taking it over.  I talk about
17   that.
18        Q    And on page number 40, you talk about --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I object to this.
20        Why are we doing this?  Mr. Dandar can ask him
21        questions, but this is just a hearsay -- I mean,
22        this is an affidavit.  He's on the stand.  I mean,
23        if there's something he wants to ask him about, he
24        can ask him, instead of saying, "On paragraph such
25        and such it says such and such."
 1             THE COURT:  Well, I would normally tend to
 2        agree with you, except we have affidavits, prior
 3        declarations of so many people in this case, I don't
 4        know why I would keep the prior declaration of
 5        Mr. Prince's out.
 7        Q    But Mr. Prince, the command channels and structure
 8   of the hierarchy of the Church of Scientology in this
 9   declaration, Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 132, is it any
10   different than your testimony than you've given in this case
11   today?
12        A    No, it is not.
13        Q    Is it any different than your -- and the reason
14   why you reached the opinions you reached in August of 1999
15   concerning David Miscavige's role in Lisa McPherson's death?
16        A    No, it is not.
17             MR. DANDAR:  I'd like to move 132 into evidence
18        as Plaintiff's Exhibit 132.
19             THE COURT:  I'm going to receive it over
20        objection, just as a prior affidavit that --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  I mean, I -- the
22        objection would be, normally, just buttressing his
23        testimony.
24             THE COURT:  That is true.  In other words, that
25        would be exactly right.  And that would be proper
 1        objection, not hearsay or --
 2             However, I'm going to let it in.
 4        Q    All right.  Now, Mr. Prince, have you worked with
 5   Mr. Michael Rinder in your tenure in Scientology?
 6        A    Yes, I have.
 7        Q    And what did -- how did -- under what
 8   circumstances?
 9        A    Mr. Rinder was a member of the watchdog committee
10   during my tenure at RTC.  He was a member of the watchdog
11   committee, a commodore's messenger, and he worked for the
12   corporation the Church of Scientology International.
13        Q    What is the watchdog committee?
14        A    The watchdog committee are the principals of the
15   Church of Scientology International.  The principals of each
16   sector and section of Scientology -- if you look at a
17   Scientology org board, you will -- you will see it's broken
18   down into certain sections and sectors.  One -- one sector
19   of Scientology is Scientology International.  That means all
20   of the organizations that are not Sea Org organizations and
21   are not missions.
22             So you would have a WDC member, a watchdog
23   committee member, for the Scientology organizations.  Then
24   you'd have a WDC member or a watchdog committee member for
25   the Sea Organization.  You would have a watchdog committee
 1   member for SMI, S-M-I, Scientology Missions International,
 2   et cetera, et cetera.
 3        Q    And who is the head of that watchdog committee?
 4        A    The chairman of the watchdog committee, during the
 5   time -- my tenure in Religious Technology Center, was Mark
 6   Yeager.
 7        Q    And did Mr. Miscavige serve on that board as well?
 8        A    No, he did not.
 9        Q    Okay.
10        A    That board reported to Mr. Miscavige.
11        Q    So Mr. Miscavige was above that board?
12        A    Correct.
13        Q    Now, Mr. Prince, based upon your experience and
14   expertise in Scientology, do you have an opinion as to why
15   Michael Rinder was meeting with Bob Minton to try to get the
16   McPherson case dismissed, as early as 1998?
17             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to the -- I mean, this
18        is pure speculation.  It is -- it's -- I think it's
19        improper opinion testimony.
20             He says that he has some expertise -- which we
21        have challenged, you know, for a number of
22        reasons -- with regard to the religious technology.
23        Now he's going to be speculating as to why someone
24        would have been meeting with Mr. Minton?
25        Mr. Minton's testified regarding that; Ms. Brooks
 1        has testified in regard to that meeting at length.
 2             THE COURT:  I -- I understand.  We've had some
 3        opinions in -- I don't know why we wouldn't listen
 4        to his, too.  I mean --
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  I -- it's more frustration than
 6        anything.
 7             That's my objection.  I understand that you're
 8        overruling it, and I just wanted to --
 9             THE COURT:  All right.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Thank you.
11        A    Sorry.  I don't remember the question.
13        Q    Why would Mr. Rinder --
14             First of all, is Mr. Rinder part of the Flag
15   Service Organization?
16        A    To my knowledge, he is not.
17        Q    Do you have an opinion as to why Mr. Rinder would
18   be meeting with Mr. Minton, as early as 1988, and of course
19   in 2002, to get the Lisa McPherson case dismissed?
20        A    Certainly I have an opinion, based on experience.
21   Because like the Wollersheim case that happened here, and
22   the Mayo case, any major case that's being litigated in the
23   United States, irrespective of the corporation, the
24   decisions, the planning and the execution of legal is done
25   with OSA -- Office of Special Affairs, David Miscavige,
 1   Marty Rathbun.
 2        Q    All right.
 3        A    Lyman Spurlock if it -- if it involves corporate.
 4   Lyman Spurlock was an expert on corporate entities.
 5             THE COURT:  Who is Mr. Rathbun?  What is his
 6        capacity?
 7             THE WITNESS:  Mr. Rathbun has had many
 8        capacities.  Prior to coming into the Religious
 9        Technology Center, he was what was called a client
10        affairs; legal client affairs.  And he handled the
11        legal affairs for the publishing aspect for
12        Mr. Hubbard in Author Services.  When he moved to
13        Religious Technology Center, he became the inspector
14        general for ethics.  Ethics --
15             THE COURT:  Is that what he is now?
16             THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure what he is now --
17             THE COURT:  Okay.
18             THE WITNESS:  -- your Honor.
19             But that position handles all legal PR and
20        intelligence as part of its duties for Scientology
21        organizations.
22             THE COURT:  And do I recall correctly -- I know
23        we've had a vacation, and frankly some of this has
24        escaped me --
25             Is Mr. Rinder the head of OSA?
 1             MR. DANDAR:  Well, Mr. -- at one time,
 2        Mr. Shaw, who is the head of OSA here, was --
 3        testified that he reported -- his senior was
 4        Mr. Rinder.  What his title was to be Mr. Shaw's
 5        senior, I don't know.
 6             THE COURT:  Well, OSA would have a --
 7             Okay.  I believe there's testimony about that
 8        in this hearing that he is the head of the Office of
 9        Special Affairs.  I think.  Maybe not.
10             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
11             THE COURT:  Which includes legal.
12             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
13             MR. DANDAR:  Right.
15        Q    Now, Mr. Prince, let me show you what's already in
16   evidence as Plaintiff's Exhibit 110, known as KSW News.  And
17   if you could, I'm going to --
18             THE COURT:  I don't know -- I allowed the
19        answer, but I don't know what the answer was.  I
20        mean, the answer --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. Shaw can explain it to you.
22             THE COURT:  No.  What -- what I think -- he
23        went off to tell us about Mr. Rathbun.  I think the
24        question was why would it have been -- why would
25        Mr. Rinder have been called to this meeting.  And
 1        is -- what is your answer?
 2             THE WITNESS:  Right.  Because Mr. Rinder would
 3        have been in that position, the senior person within
 4        the OSA network.  And OSA operates on a statistic,
 5        just like other departments and sections within the
 6        Scientology organization operate on.  And a
 7        statistic for the OSA would be a threat handled; a
 8        threat being a lawsuit or a person that was
 9        perceived to be an adversary against Scientology or
10        taken an adversarial position against Scientology.
11        So getting rid of a lawsuit would be something that
12        would improve conditions, you know, a statistic
13        going up.  That would be a good thing for them.
14        So -- and that's what they focus and concentrate on,
15        handling legal situations.
17        Q    OSA.
18        A    Yes.
19        Q    All right.  The KSW News, if you open up to the
20   little -- I believe it should be in the middle -- there is a
21   list of matters that need to be reported up lines to RTC.
22        A    Yes.
23        Q    Do you see that?
24        A    Yes, I do.
25        Q    And there's an arrow that I drew --
 1             THE COURT:  You all are too loud back there.
 2             Go ahead.
 4        Q    -- next to PTS Type III?
 5        A    "Any person who acts PTS Type III, potential
 6   trouble source."
 7        Q    Okay.
 8        A    And that is of concern.
 9        Q    Does PTS Type III include people who are psychotic
10   as well as people who want to leave?
11        A    Correct.
12        Q    Now, this publication, when was it published?
13        A    1994 --
14        Q    And --
15        A    -- is when the copyright notice is on it, RTC
16   copyright notice.
17        Q    All right.  So it certainly wasn't published after
18   Lisa McPherson died in '95.
19        A    No, it was not.
20        Q    Now, this reporting up lines of PTS Type III to
21   RTC, was that in effect when you were an active
22   Scientologist?
23        A    Yes, it was.
24             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, excuse me.  What does that
25        mean, an active Scientologist?  When he was --
 2        Q    Prior to '92.  Prior to you actually leaving --
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  When you were at the RTC?
 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, it was.
 6        Q    Now, these meetings that you had with David
 7   Miscavige and Rathbun and Mithoff, Aznaran and others, you
 8   said there was a certain agenda?
 9        A    Correct.
10        Q    And that the top of that agenda for each of these
11   meetings was what?
12        A    Flaps.
13        Q    All right.  What was --
14        A    And what the handlings were.
15        Q    -- the next --
16             How they were handling the flaps?
17        A    Yes.
18        Q    What was the -- give us a list of -- in priority
19   of each meeting.
20        A    Flaps and handlings.  Then statistics, go over the
21   statistics of the departments, the divisions.  Then you talk
22   about -- the next thing is talk about wins.
23        Q    Wins.
24        A    Wins.  You know, successes.  Scientology
25   successes.  Successes on the job, successes within the
 1   organization.
 2        Q    And how often would these meetings occur?
 3        A    Once a week.
 4        Q    And this is just a meeting of people who were at
 5   RTC?
 6        A    No.  This is a pattern that is continued
 7   throughout the majority -- all of Sea Org organizations.
 8        Q    That includes Flag?
 9        A    Yes.
10        Q    And back in --
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could I -- the
12        question was about Mr. Miscavige, and the answer
13        obviously was way broader.  You're not -- I don't
14        think Mr. Prince was saying Mr. Miscavige was having
15        meetings on a weekly basis at all the Scientology
16        organizations.
17             THE WITNESS:  No, no.  That's not --
18             THE COURT:  He's saying, when he was a member
19        and he would meet with these people, what was their
20        agenda?  That's all --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  No -- but then the next
22        question was -- then what he said was, "And this is
23        done in all Scientology organizations," which
24        means -- I think what he meant was there's meetings
25        every week in Scientology organizations with people
 1        in the org.  That's what --
 2             THE WITNESS:  The pattern of flaps and
 3        handlings, statistics and wins, is a pattern that
 4        every Sea Org organization has in their meetings,
 5        their weekly meetings.  Miscavige isn't at those
 6        meetings.  I --
 8        Q    But at the meetings that you had and you
 9   participated in with Mr. Miscavige, were these meetings --
10   when you say flaps, were they just -- my question was, did
11   they just concern RTC or was it flaps --
12        A    No.
13        Q    -- of what --
14        A    When RTC has a meeting about flaps and handlings,
15   it could include any aspect of the Scientology empire.  It
16   could include the FSO; it could include the organization in
17   Australia if there was a threat in Australia of some org
18   getting ready to be closed down, or if one of the
19   Scientology organizations were raided in Greece or whatever.
20   You know, it could be anyplace.
21        Q    All right.
22        A    Because the problems were existing -- in the lower
23   organizations, their flaps --
24             THE COURT:  You need to get to the point.
25             In your opinion, as somebody who was with -- in
 1        RTC, at the time you were there, would the Lisa
 2        McPherson situation have been discussed at one of
 3        those meetings.
 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
 5             THE COURT:  All right.
 7        Q    Is there any doubt about that?
 8        A    No.  And as I was getting ready to say is, the
 9   reason being is the lower organizations have to report to
10   the higher organizations.  The higher organizations have to
11   approve the handlings for the flaps; have to verify the
12   statistics.  Then it goes to the next organization, who'll
13   do the same thing.  And by the time it gets to RTC, it's
14   pretty much confirmed what the lower organization is saying.
15   And maybe the handlings may be modified, but you know,
16   they're pretty much all on the same page.
17        Q    Is there any doubt in your mind -- as you sit here
18   today, do you question your opinions that you reached in
19   your August, '99 declaration concerning the involvement of
20   Mr. Miscavige in the Lisa McPherson as a PR flap?
21        A    No.  I haven't changed my opinion one bit.
22        Q    And is that opinion solely your opinion or are you
23   being influenced by anyone to make that opinion?
24        A    I base my opinions on my personal experience, what
25   I've observed, the written word of L. Ron Hubbard.
 1        Q    All right.  Now, let's jump now to 2002.  The --
 2   we left off with your meeting -- I believe you said you had
 3   this rather un- -- not unpleasant, but bad -- heated words
 4   were exchanged at that hotel, the Radisson on Clearwater
 5   Beach, when you met with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks.  Do you
 6   recall that?
 7        A    Yes, I do.
 8        Q    And Ms. Brooks walked out to the parking lot with
 9   you?
10        A    Yes.
11        Q    All right.  I want to pick up from there.
12             When is the next time you recall having further
13   conversation with Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton?
14             THE COURT:  What -- do we have the date on
15        that?
16             MR. DANDAR:  April the 14th.
17             THE COURT:  Okay.
18        A    The last --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think he said that --
20             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.  April the 14th.
21             THE COURT:  Well, he said the dates were as
22        they were in his affidavit, 'cause he sat down with
23        a calendar.
24             MR. DANDAR:  Right.
25        A    The next time that I talked to them, I think, was
 1   maybe a week or some days later, when they were staying at
 2   another hotel -- oh, wow.  Windham, the Hyatt Windham Hotel.
 3             I called and spoke to Bob and asked if he wanted
 4   to come by to the -- 'cause I was having a barbecue.
 5             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  And Judge, just for
 6        the record, I am looking at his April, 2002 Jesse
 7        Prince affidavit.
 8             THE COURT:  All right.
 9             MR. DANDAR:  His handwritten note is
10        April 14th, that's attached, 2002.
12        Q    Mr. Prince, the handwritten note, did you write
13   that when you met with me and Mr. Lirot?
14        A    Yes, I did.
15        Q    Okay.  And after that is when --
16             Maybe I'm confused.  Let's hold on.
17             After that is when you had the dinner with
18   Mr. Minton?
19        A    After I wrote this handwritten note is the Sunday
20   that I met with them at the Radisson.
21        Q    Is that when you had that heated conversation --
22        A    Yes.
23        Q    -- at dinner?
24        A    Yes.
25        Q    Was that -- were you supposed to meet Mr. Rinder
 1   that day?
 2        A    Correct.
 3        Q    And who told you that?
 4        A    Mr. Minton, Mrs. Brooks.
 5        Q    And did you meet with Mr. Rinder on April 14th,
 6   2002?
 7        A    No, I did not.
 8        Q    Why not?
 9        A    Because it was deemed by Mr. Minton that I was not
10   ready, because I was not willing to perjure myself.
11        Q    And who told you that?
12        A    Mr. Minton.
13        Q    How did he want you to perjure yourself?
14        A    He wanted -- he wanted me to come in and say that
15   you influenced me to write the August, '99 declaration that
16   I did; that you put words in my mouth.  And he wanted me to
17   say that some meeting occurred where Mr. Minton was at,
18   where you talked about adding David Miscavige on as a party.
19   And he kept using this term of, like, "You have to walk with
20   us on this because we're going to show you what to do.  You
21   know, we're the A team.  We got to be together on this.
22   There can't be any breaks.  This is what we're doing.  This
23   is what I'm saying.  This is what you need to do to back it
24   up."
25        Q    How did you respond?
 1        A    "I absolutely will not do it."
 2        Q    Did Mr. Minton ever indicate to you that he knew
 3   that he was lying?
 4             THE COURT:  Could I ask --
 5             Just one more minute.
 6             What you're saying -- which affidavit is it
 7        that they -- they, meaning Mr. Minton -- wanted you
 8        to say Mr. Dandar influenced you to write?
 9             THE WITNESS:  The one where I wrote that
10        Miscavige had knowledge and culpability in Lisa
11        McPherson's death.
12             THE COURT:  The one that dealt with the
13        change -- or the amendment of the complaint.  Is
14        that the one he's talking about?
15             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  That's the one he's talking
16        about.
17             THE COURT:  That would have been the first
18        affidavit he filed maybe in this case?
19             Well, it doesn't matter.
20             MR. DANDAR:  No.  The first one, I think, was
21        the PC folders.
22             THE COURT:  I know which one you're talking
23        about.
24             THE WITNESS:  It was the second one.
25             MR. DANDAR:  It's the August, 1999 affidavit.
 1             THE WITNESS:  Right.
 2             THE COURT:  And he also wanted you to state --
 3             THE WITNESS:  That Mr. Dandar had had a meeting
 4        with myself, Mrs. Brooks, Dr. Garko, Mr. Minton, to
 5        discuss adding Mr. Miscavige on as a party.
 6             THE COURT:  Right.
 7             THE WITNESS:  And apparently Bob was saying,
 8        you know, and we have to say that Mr. Dandar said
 9        that the meeting never happened, and you know, we
10        were adding on Miscavige basically to try to force
11        Scientology into a settlement position.
13        Q    Was any of that true?
14        A    No.
15             THE COURT:  Could we find out, since that does
16        seem to be an issue here, what he remembers about
17        whatever meeting there was to discuss adding
18        Mr. Miscavige as a party?  Or are you not ready for
19        that, or are you not going to go there, or --
20             MR. DANDAR:  Well, I'm trying to not invade my
21        work product as much as possible.  But it is an
22        issue, and so I didn't --
23             We can ask him that question.
24             THE COURT:  All right.
25             MR. DANDAR:  I just don't know how far I want
 1        to invade my work product.
 3        Q    But Mr. Prince, do you recall having any meeting
 4   with me, Dr. Garko and Stacy Brooks about adding on David
 5   Miscavige --
 6             THE COURT:  I'm not going to let them get into
 7        the extent of the discussion necessarily, other than
 8        what we've done thus far in this hearing, which is
 9        who was there --
10             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
11             THE COURT:  -- and was there a discussion about
12        adding Mr. Miscavige, and who was in favor of it and
13        who wasn't?  That's pretty much all that's been
14        discussed.
15             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
16             THE COURT:  And it's been discussed by a lot of
17        witnesses --
18             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
19             THE COURT:  -- Stacy Brooks, Mr. Minton,
20        Mr. Garko, you.
21             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  So --
22             That's fine.
24        Q    So was there such a meeting?
25        A    There was a meeting between you, myself,
 1   Mrs. Brooks, Dr. Garko, where we discussed -- and I mean, my
 2   recollection is there's been more than one time that we
 3   discussed this -- about adding Mr. Miscavige on as a party.
 4        Q    Was Mr. Minton ever at any of those meetings?
 5        A    No, he was not.
 6        Q    Do you have any idea why Mr. Minton would tell
 7   you, when you met with him in April, why he wanted to say he
 8   was at a meeting to add on David Miscavige?
 9        A    Because the idea was --
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  If it's something
11        Mr. Minton told him, fine.  But otherwise it would
12        just be pure conjecture.
13             THE COURT:  That's true.  If it's something
14        Mr. Minton told him, then he can discuss it.
15             Go ahead.
16        A    Okay.  The idea that Mr. Minton told me is
17   Scientology had several things that they wanted Mr. Minton
18   to do.  These were in conjunction and coordination with
19   things that could be done to get the case dismissed.
20             Specifically, going after you.  Specifically, you
21   were to be made the target of whatever stack of papers that
22   Scientology provided to Mr. Minton.  There was five or six
23   things that they wanted him to do in relationship to you
24   only.  And you were the obvious target --
 2        Q    Why?
 3        A    -- to --
 4             Because they wanted to get you kicked off the
 5   case.  Because they figured if they got you kicked off the
 6   case, then no other attorney would pick it up and the suit
 7   would simply go away.
 8        Q    And Mr. Minton told you this.
 9        A    Yes.
10        Q    And how many times did he tell you that?
11        A    Several.
12        Q    Did Mr. Minton ever indicate to you that he knew
13   that what he was saying about me was not true?
14        A    Mr. Minton was in -- in the -- in the very
15   beginning, Mr. Minton was in anguish over the -- the
16   prospect of -- of lying on behalf of Scientology for --
17   against you.  Mrs. Brooks was in a panic and desperate frame
18   of mind to do whatever it took to extricate Mr. Minton from
19   just the assault that Scientology was enacting upon
20   Mr. Minton.  And she thought that it would be a good idea
21   for Mr. Minton to cooperate with Mr. Rinder, with Mr. Rosen,
22   whatever they wanted, to get him extricated from the
23   Scientology assault.
24        Q    Did Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks tell you that --
25             Well, you said they -- let me go back.
 1             You said something about Scientology gave
 2   Mr. Minton a stack of papers about what he needed to say
 3   against me?
 4        A    Yes.
 5        Q    What --
 6        A    Or possible things to go into.  And that's the
 7   stuff that came from the Adams Mark Hotel, after we had the
 8   meeting, after I went to see him again, after he lied the
 9   first time on the stand.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, objection.
11        A    And --
12             MR. WEINBERG:  If this is --
13             THE COURT:  Wait a minute.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  If this is the same stack that
15        Mr. Prince testified yesterday that he never looked
16        at --
17             THE COURT:  Right.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  -- so how's he going to answer
19        questions about what was in the stack?
20             THE COURT:  He's not answering questions about
21        what was in the stack.  He's talking about what
22        Mr. Minton told him.  That's all he's supposed to
23        testify about.
24             MR. DANDAR:  That's what he's doing.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
 2        Q    You didn't look at the stack of papers, right?
 3        A    No, I did not.
 4        Q    So how do you know what was in the stack of
 5   papers?
 6        A    'Cause he told me.  There were five to six things
 7   in there that Scientology wanted him to do against you, and
 8   you specifically, and you only.
 9        Q    Okay.
10        A    And two of them were the check.  You know, somehow
11   saying that you caused him to perjure himself concerning the
12   check.  And then the meeting.  These were two very important
13   issues to --
14             You know, I can't say that I fully understood it
15   because I'm not a lawyer, but this was very important that
16   they executed in that way.
17        Q    Okay.  And let's talk about the check, all right?
18        A    Okay.
19        Q    Did Mr. Minton ever tell you that -- after he met
20   with Scientology, did he ever tell you that the check was
21   from him; that May, $2,000 (sic) check for $500,000?
22        A    At that time he did.
23        Q    All right.  Did you have any conversation with him
24   as to why he told you something different on the roof of the
25   parking lot across from the Lisa McPherson Trust office?
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Asked and answered.
 2        He talked about that yesterday.
 3             THE COURT:  I think he did.
 4             MR. DANDAR:  Did he?
 5             THE COURT:  Yeah, I believe he did.
 6             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  Okay.
 7             THE COURT:  Do you remember -- sometimes one
 8        day bleeds into the next.  I do know he talked about
 9        being on the roof of the parking lot, and I do know
10        he talked about Mr. Minton telling him something
11        different.  Did he --
12             Did you discuss yesterday with us why
13        Mr. Minton said he was telling a different story
14        now?  I don't remember.
15             THE WITNESS:  Well, yes, your Honor.  Your
16        recall is actually quite correct.  Because you
17        yourself asked me, "Well, what did they say," when I
18        brought up the fact that we had been on the roof.
19        And he had told us this whole different story.  And
20        you asked me, "Well, what did they say," and I said
21        that, "They just looked at me stupidly."  But of
22        course --
23             THE COURT:  So is the answer then he really
24        didn't say anything about this difference --
25             THE WITNESS:  Right.
 1             THE COURT:  -- that you're telling that --
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  Changed the subject.
 3             THE COURT:  Changed the subject.
 4             THE WITNESS:  Right.
 5             THE COURT:  Okay.
 7        Q    Did you ever talk to him again about the check, or
 8   was that the last time?
 9        A    I think that is the last time I spoke to him about
10   the check.
11        Q    Okay.  Did you have any other conversations with
12   Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks about trying to get you to lie and
13   go down the road with him, as you say?
14        A    Well, I had continuing conversations with them
15   after negotiate -- after they had the negotiations in New
16   York and then began the negotiations -- continued the
17   negotiations in Clearwater.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, my objection, your Honor,
19        is he went over all this yesterday.
20             MR. DANDAR:  Right.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  I mean, now we're going back and
22        we're going to go repeat what happened yesterday.
23             THE COURT:  That's true.  I think we really
24        were, yesterday, up to the point of this forward
25        meeting.
 1             MR. DANDAR:  That's right.
 2             THE COURT:  Although frankly, you never did
 3        discuss the meeting where there was a discussion to
 4        have Mr. Miscavige added.  And I think he's done
 5        that now.
 6             MR. DANDAR:  Yes, he has.
 7             THE COURT:  Right.  And -- and that was the
 8        second thing.  And I -- I think now you've explained
 9        that.  So you can go -- I shouldn't say you --
10        Mr. Prince can explain what.
11             THE WITNESS:  There was something I left off
12        about Mr. Miscavige -- adding Miscavige as well, in
13        the discussions that I had with Mrs. Brooks and
14        Mr. --
15             THE COURT:  Oh, yeah.  I don't believe he's
16        ever discussed with us what his discussions with
17        Mr. Minton were about that.
18             THE WITNESS:  Right.
19             THE COURT:  So you might want to.
20             MR. DANDAR:  Oh.
21             THE WITNESS:  Right.
22             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  Go ahead.
23             THE WITNESS:  As you well know, and certainly
24        Mr. Weinberg well knows, we all sat before Judge
25        Moody forever on this issue of adding David
 1        Miscavige as a party.  We discussed this back and
 2        forth.
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  "We" being --
 4             THE WITNESS:  The judge said a key question to
 5        be asked was, is was that anything I wanted to have
 6        happen?  The answer is no.  I was not in favor of
 7        adding David Miscavige.  I thought it would drag
 8        down the lawsuit and just be cumbersome.
 9             THE COURT:  That's you.  You were not in favor
10        of adding him.
11             THE WITNESS:  Right.
12             But in discussions about this, it was decided
13        to do it anyway, and it was decided because this is
14        what Ms. Liebreich wanted to do.
15             But we discussed this.
16             And my -- my thing with Mr. Minton as we were
17        talking about this when they were trying to get me
18        to do this, is when the record is so obvious why and
19        how that happened, why are you now trying to say
20        it's just all Ken's fault, when Mrs. Brooks was the
21        one that was really wanting this to happen; wanting
22        to add Miscavige?
23             So we talked about that.
25        Q    Okay.
 1             THE COURT:  And what did he say?
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me.  Talked about it
 3        when, then?
 4             So now it's Ms. Brooks or Ms. Liebreich that
 5        wanted this to happen.  I mean, I --
 6             THE COURT:  No.  No.  I understand this.  Wait
 7        till you get the transcript.
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.
 9             THE COURT:  It'll be very clear to you.  Don't
10        get all flustered.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm not flustered.
12             THE COURT:  Yes, you are.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm hungry.
14             THE COURT:  I'm hungry too.  We're going to
15        stop at 12:30.  Did you say you were hungry?
16             MR. DANDAR:  That's what he said.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  That's what I said.
18             MR. DANDAR:  That's a new objection.
19             THE COURT:  Just so we see if the testimony's
20        consistent --
21             At this meeting, Jesse Prince was not in favor
22        of adding Mr. Miscavige; Stacy Brooks really wanted
23        to add David Miscavige.  What about Dr. Garko?
24             THE WITNESS:  Dr. Garko was hesitant about it.
25        And --
 1             THE COURT:  Okay.
 2             THE WITNESS:  And Mr. Minton didn't care one
 3        way or the other.  I mean --
 4             THE COURT:  I thought Mr. Minton wasn't there.
 5             THE WITNESS:  You know, later, when we
 6        discussed it, when, you know, Stacy -- we went to
 7        the office.  And Stacy says, "Well, I think, we're
 8        going to do this," and he's, like, "Yeah, okay.  So
 9        what?"  Because Mr. Minton always -- you know, he
10        was concerned about what he was doing.  Mr. Minton
11        wasn't concerned with what Mr. Dandar was doing
12        or -- or what Mr. Prince was doing or Mr. Brooks
13        (sic).  He had his own agenda.  When he came down
14        to -- here in Florida, he would be more concerned
15        about what he was doing.
17        Q    Well, was there a meeting with Mr. Minton?
18        A    No.
19        Q    Well, what are you talking about when you said
20   Minton -- Mr. Minton didn't care?
21        A    I recall Stacy Brooks and myself having a
22   conversation with Mr. Minton, mentioning the fact that we
23   were doing this.
24        Q    Oh, okay.  Was I there, or Dr. Garko?
25        A    No.
 1        Q    All right.
 2        A    No.  And he's like, "Okay.  Where do you guys want
 3   to eat," type of thing.  You know, he just didn't care.
 4   "Okay."  You know, that's -- "Ken --" "Whatever."
 5        Q    Did Mr. Minton ever tell you he had an agenda?
 6             MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me, your Honor, could we
 7        date that meeting?
 8             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.  Let's date the meeting.
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  And where it was?
10             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.
11             THE WITNESS:  When Stacy and I discussed it, I
12        think it was probably -- some -- maybe a week or
13        sometime prior to the fifth amended complaint
14        actually being filed --
16        Q    Well --
17        A    -- we discussed it.
18        Q    -- there were several times that the fifth amended
19   complaint --
20             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, your Honor --
21        A    Well, okay.  To answer the question, no, I don't
22   know when it was.  I just know --
23             THE COURT:  No.  I think --
24             MR. WEINBERG:  My objection was Mr. Dandar
25        prompting him.
 1             THE COURT:  No, he wasn't prompting him.
 2             There were several fifth amended complaints.  I
 3        would like to know.
 4             Was it the fifth amended complaint where
 5        Mashburn (sic) and -- Rathbun -- all those other
 6        people were added or was it the fifth amended
 7        complaint that's now the complaint?
 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honor -- I don't --
 9             THE COURT:  Or do you know?
10             THE WITNESS:  I don't have a clear recollection
11        of which --
12             THE COURT:  Was this a discussion where it was
13        decided to add Mr. Miscavige as, I guess, chairman
14        of the board of RTC -- I don't know how -- I've
15        never seen that complaint -- or was it before the
16        discussion to add Mr. Miscavige as head of the Sea
17        Org?
18             THE WITNESS:  I think it was after the
19        discussion to add -- after it had been resolved that
20        Mr. Miscavige could be added as head of the Sea Org.
21        You know --
22             THE COURT:  After it was resolved by whom?  By
23        Judge Moody?
24             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  By Judge Moody.
25             THE COURT:  Then you had a discussion with
 1        Mr. Minton about this?
 2             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  I believe he, Stacy and I
 3        were in the car, traveling, and we talked about it.
 4             THE COURT:  Okay.
 6        Q    So it was after the hearing we had, you said took
 7   forever, with Judge Moody?
 8        A    I know that it became a serious possibility after
 9   we exhausted, in front of Judge Moody, every way of whether
10   or not it would be correct or appropriate or even allowed to
11   do it; coming in as head of the Sea Org, when Judge Moody
12   said that it could -- that he could be added as head of the
13   Sea Org, not as COB because of that agreement.
14        Q    Right.
15        A    Which, you know, I didn't even know about until
16   after the fact.
17             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  Okay.  Probably a good
18        time to break for lunch, unless you have a question,
19        Judge.
20             THE COURT:  I think it's a good time to break
21        for lunch.  We'll be in recess -- you know, an hour
22        just isn't enough.  I need to make some phone calls
23        and sign some things.  We're going to break until
24        quarter till 2.  Court's in recess.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  And the same instructions to
 1        Mr. Prince.
 2             THE COURT:  Same instruction.
 3               (A recess was taken at 12:29 p.m.)
 2                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
 4   STATE OF FLORIDA         )
 6             I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was
     authorized to and did stenographically report the
 7   proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and
     complete record of my stenographic notes.
               I further certify that I am not a relative,
 9   employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
     I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
10   counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
     interested in the action.
12   WITNESS my hand and official seal this 9th day of July,
13   2002.
15                             ______________________________
                               DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR

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