1
           1        IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
                                  CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
           2
           3
           4
                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
           5    Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,
           6
           7              Plaintiff,
           8    vs.                                     VOLUME 1
           9    CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
                SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
          10    JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
          11
                          Defendants.
          12
                _______________________________________/
          13
          14
          15    PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
          16
                CONTENTS:           Testimony of Frank Oliver.
          17
                DATE:               July 11, 2002.  Afternoon Session.
          18
                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
          19                        St. Petersburg, Florida.
          20    BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
                                    Circuit Judge.
          21
                REPORTED BY:        Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
          22                        Deputy Official Court Reporter,
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
          23
          24
          25
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           1    APPEARANCES:
           2
                MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
           3    DANDAR & DANDAR
                5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
           4    Tampa, FL 33602
                Attorney for Plaintiff.
           5
                MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
           6    LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
                112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
           7    Tampa, FL 33602-4108
                Attorney for Plaintiff
           8
           9    MR. KENDRICK MOXON
                MOXON & KOBRIN
          10    1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
                Clearwater, FL 33755
          11    Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
                Organization.
          12
          13    MR. LEE FUGATE
                MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
          14    ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
                101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
          15    Tampa, FL 33602-5147
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
          16    Organization.
          17
                MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
          18    RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
                740 Broadway at Astor Place
          19    New York, NY 10003-9518
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
          20    Organization.
          21
          22
          23
          24
          25
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           1              THE COURT:  Okay.  Did you find whatever clip
           2         it was you wanted to show?
           3              MR. DANDAR:  It does not exist on that tape and
           4         in Hubbard's voice, so we're not going to play the
           5         tape.
           6              THE COURT:  All right.  You may call your next
           7         witness.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, before that happens, did
           9         Mr. Keane bring the other videos over for you to
          10         review?
          11              THE COURT:  Yes.
          12              MR. FUGATE:  Okay.
          13              THE COURT:  There are five of them, however.
          14         He tells me he -- he didn't, somebody that had put
          15         them on a VCR.
          16              MR. FUGATE:  What happened was when you asked
          17         me, I called.  And it turns out that they hadn't
          18         converted them to whatever you needed to see them
          19         on.
          20              THE COURT:  They have.  And they gave them to
          21         me.  But they said there are five of them and each
          22         one was an hour.
          23              MR. FUGATE:  Okay.
          24              THE COURT:  So I don't know when I'm going to
          25         get to them.  Maybe this weekend.
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           1              MR. FUGATE:  Well, I don't know how long we'll
           2         be going.  They all involve Mr. Dandar, though, is
           3         that correct?
           4              THE COURT:  I don't know.  I think there were
           5         several that -- I said -- I don't remember.  He said
           6         there were several.  I said I wanted to see them
           7         before they were released.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  But you don't have them?
           9              THE COURT:  I have them.  Yes.  And there may
          10         have been a couple that were claimed attorney-client
          11         privilege.  I don't know what they are.  All I know,
          12         he sent them over.  They're on the VCR.
          13              MR. FUGATE:  Obviously I had older information
          14         because I understood they had two.  And there
          15         were --
          16              THE COURT:  Five.
          17              MR. FUGATE:  All right.
          18              THE COURT:  You may call your next witness.
          19              MR. LIROT:  Your Honor, we would like to call
          20         Frank Oliver.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I want to address
          22         something before Mr. Oliver takes the stand.
          23              THE COURT:  All right.
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  As I indicated before, we object
          25         to Mr. Oliver testifying.
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           1              And the primary -- first of all, the question
           2         is, is he being called as an expert or fact witness.
           3         That is number one.
           4              But our primary objection is that in April of
           5         2000 we -- or shortly before that, we had subpoenaed
           6         to take the deposition of Mr. Oliver.  The
           7         plaintiff, Mr. Dandar, moved for a protective order
           8         against us taking the deposition of Mr. Oliver and
           9         several other people.  And in the course of that
          10         argument, on April 10, 2000 in front of Judge --
          11         this was Judge Moody -- on Page 13, and I quote,
          12         "Mr. Dandar said Frank Oliver is a former OSA
          13         Scientologist.  He's no longer a Scientologist.
          14         He's not testifying in this case," meaning the
          15         wrongful death case, "he has nothing to do with this
          16         case whatsoever."
          17              Based on that representation, Mr. -- Judge
          18         Moody said, "I'm granting that motion for protective
          19         order.  You can't take the deposition of Frank
          20         Oliver."
          21              So to the extent that the plaintiff in this
          22         case is calling Mr. Oliver to testify about this
          23         case or about the allegations in the complaint, we
          24         object.  We -- we went through that exercise several
          25         years ago and we were prevented from taking his
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           1         deposition.
           2              If Mr. Oliver is here to testify about this
           3         conversation with Mr. Prince that Mr. Prince talked
           4         about, you know, I don't have any objection to that.
           5              But if he's being put on the stand to -- to
           6         testify about Scientology or this case, we object
           7         because Mr. Dandar already represented on the record
           8         that he has nothing whatsoever to do with this case.
           9              Now, to the extent whether or not Mr. Oliver
          10         could ever be an expert, he's been offered on at
          11         least three occasions, once in Mr. Prince's trial,
          12         once in Mr. Minton's trial, and once in the Henson
          13         matter.  And he has never been accepted as an expert
          14         on Scientology.
          15              So -- so -- and there is dialogue, we went back
          16         and forth, you'll see he was only a staff member
          17         some eight, nine or ten months.  And the last time
          18         he was a staff member was apparently in late 1991.
          19              But our primary objection is that we were
          20         prevented from taking his deposition because of the
          21         representation of Mr. Dandar that he had nothing
          22         whatsoever to do with this case.
          23              THE COURT:  All right.
          24              MR. DANDAR:  I did not at that time -- that was
          25         for the trial.  This is a different hearing.  This
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           1         is a different subject matter.  Mr. Oliver has
           2         pertinent things to talk about, including
           3         conversations with Mr. Minton.
           4              THE COURT:  All right.  Then he will be allowed
           5         to testify.  As far as -- this is a different
           6         hearing.  This is not the trial, obviously.
           7              One of the allegations in this hearing is that
           8         the allegations in the -- really all of the
           9         complaints except for the first one were -- were
          10         false, known to be false and what have you.  I don't
          11         know that in 2000 that was an allegation.  So --
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, what was an allegation?
          13              THE COURT:  That any motion to dismiss, motion
          14         to exclude counsel, motion -- motion that counsel
          15         permitted perjury --
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  Not that.  But as soon as the
          17         fifth amended complaint was moved to be filed, which
          18         was in -- whenever it was -- September of 1999, we
          19         complained very loudly this was nonsense, that this
          20         affidavit of Jesse Prince was -- you know, was
          21         complete rubbish and there was absolutely no
          22         evidence whatsoever that would justify naming David
          23         Miscavige, A, as a party or, B, suggesting that he
          24         ordered the death of Lisa McPherson.
          25              So we -- we made that very clear from day one,
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           1         long before we --
           2              THE COURT:  Well, there is a difference in
           3         saying we object and we're going to file a motion
           4         for summary judgment and we're going to answer this
           5         and do affirmative defenses and file a motion for
           6         terminating sanctions stating, as part of the
           7         allegations, rather than just a summary judgment,
           8         that this was fraudulent and false and known to be
           9         so by the lawyer at the time.
          10              Those are allegations that don't come along
          11         every day.  They just came when you filed your
          12         motion.  And as far as I'm concerned, if he has
          13         information regarding that, that would be something
          14         totally different.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  You mean as of the time that
          16         Mr. Prince did his affidavit in August of '99 when
          17         the motion was filed?
          18              THE COURT:  I don't know.  In other words, as
          19         of -- whether or not it is false, and, therefore,
          20         Mr. Dandar knew it was false when he filed it, and,
          21         therefore, it should somehow be excluded, if he has
          22         information to say it is not false, I think he
          23         should be permitted to testify about that.
          24              I don't know what he's going to say.  Let's
          25         just see what he says.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  Is he going to be an expert on
           2         Scientology?
           3              THE COURT:  I have no idea.
           4              MR. LIROT:  Judge -- I didn't mean to
           5         interrupt, I'm sorry.
           6              He's going to testify as to his personal
           7         experience.  We are not going to ask for expert
           8         testimony.
           9              THE COURT:  You are not going to ask for his
          10         opinions?
          11              MR. LIROT:  I'm going to ask for his
          12         experience, what assignments he was given.  I'm
          13         going to ask him to authenticate a number of
          14         documents he produced pursuant to subpoena served on
          15         him.
          16              THE COURT:  All right.
          17              MR. LIROT:  So essentially -- and candidly, the
          18         purpose of his testimony would be to show that it
          19         supports our allegation that Mr. Minton and what
          20         we'll call this turnabout of Mr. Minton's position,
          21         as we have alleged, is supported by what we consider
          22         to be a routine practice of the Church.
          23              And we hope we're able to support that by the
          24         testimony and documents Mr. Oliver is able to
          25         present.
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           1              THE COURT:  That is certainly new and did not
           2         exist in -- I'm sorry -- in 2000.  So --
           3              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Again, your Honor, routine
           4         practice from someone whose last experience was
           5         eleven years ago is not admissible under 402, I
           6         think, and 404.
           7              THE COURT:  It does not sound like a religious
           8         argument.  So if you have an argument to make, tell
           9         Mr. Weinberg.
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  I'll stand up -- well, the rules
          11         are 404 and 406.  You know --
          12              THE COURT:  I don't know what he'll say.  Let's
          13         let him go and see what he says.
          14              Step forward, sir.
          15                         (Witness sworn.)
          16              THE COURT:  You may lower your hand and have a
          17         seat.
          18              Do you-all have any idea what witness of yours
          19         this is number-wise?
          20              MR. LIROT:  I had it noted.  I want to say
          21         number 10.
          22              THE COURT:  I'll just put a number down.  It
          23         doesn't matter.
          24              MR. LIROT:  I know it is Day 30.
          25              THE COURT:  All right.  Go ahead.
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           1              ______________________________________
           2                          FRANK OLIVER,
           3    the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
           4    and testified as follows:
           5                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    Could you please state your name and spell your
           8    last name for the record.
           9         A    My name is Frank Oliver.  O-L-I-V-E-R.
          10         Q    And, Mr. Oliver, can you tell the Court how you
          11    are currently employed?
          12         A    A graphic designer.
          13         Q    Can you please give us a brief summary of your
          14    educational background.
          15         A    I attended high school in Miami, Florida.  I
          16    attended approximately three and a half years of college, a
          17    year in Louisiana and two years in Miami.
          18         Q    All right.  At some point did you become involved
          19    with the Church of Scientology?
          20         A    Yes.  In the summer of 1986.
          21         Q    All right.  And can you tell us how your
          22    involvement began?
          23         A    I was in Ft. Lauderdale.  And basically I was
          24    driving from a friend's house and saw a sign that said
          25    "Dianetics, free personality test."
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           1              And I had been always curious as to what that --
           2    you know, the Dianetics book was about and what that subject
           3    was about.
           4              And I went in and took the personality test at the
           5    Ft. Lauderdale mission.  They called it a mission.  It was
           6    more like an old house with a big parking lot in front.
           7    And, Mmm, I went inside and met the people that were there
           8    and asked them what it was about, this -- this free
           9    personality test I was always curious about.  And that was
          10    my first foray into knowing anything about Scientology.
          11         Q    Now, did you take any courses in Scientology
          12    during your period when you were a member?
          13         A    Yeah.  That is one of the first things I found out
          14    is that it was -- the subject was about -- it was more like
          15    a school in a room where people sat behind big tables and
          16    studies than what I originally thought.
          17              I had some idea it might be something having to do
          18    with psychoanalysis or something because, you know, I picked
          19    up the book and had seen something about it.
          20              And part of it was a lot of these courses that you
          21    took.  And the courses are on different subject matters.
          22    And they have a course on communication, for example.  That
          23    was one of the courses that I took where it is supposed to
          24    help you be a better communicator, understand people when
          25    they communicate, and how to control communication, you
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           1    know, when you talk to someone.
           2              Another course was on the subject itself of what
           3    Hubbard called the eight dynamics.
           4              There were a lot of these little courses that I
           5    took right at the beginning.  And -- Mmm -- the -- probably
           6    on the fourth or fifth time I went up to Ft. Lauderdale,
           7    Mmm, I met some people that were from the Miami org.  Org is
           8    their abbreviation for organization.
           9              THE COURT:  You can assume that I know a great
          10         deal more about the Church of Scientology than you
          11         probably know that I know.  So let me ask you if
          12         there is something you say that I don't know what it
          13         means.  Okay?
          14              THE WITNESS:  All right.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could I ask -- there
          16         is some noise outside.  Could he get a little closer
          17         to the microphone?
          18              THE WITNESS:  The chair doesn't move?
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  Or just move the mike.
          20              THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  Is that better?
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
          22         A    So these people that came up from Miami, they were
          23    there on what was called a mission.  And what their job was
          24    to do was to see what people were in this Ft. Lauderdale
          25    mission at the time.  They were on their own mission, see
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           1    what kind of people were there that they could try and get
           2    to come down to the Miami org, which is the higher-up
           3    organization from the Ft. Lauderdale mission.  It has the
           4    more -- it has more advanced courses and services that they
           5    offer.
           6              And I met a lady named Paulette Culp, who is a
           7    very nice lady.  She told me about -- she told me more about
           8    Scientology and told me there were more advanced courses
           9    there and I could get what is called auditing.  And she was
          10    very interested in me coming there.
          11              And she even said, "Well, you live in Miami.  You
          12    drive up to Ft. Lauderdale.  Why don't you just come down to
          13    the Miami org located in Coral Gables."
          14              So from that point on, I didn't go to the Ft.
          15    Lauderdale mission any longer, I started going to the Miami
          16    org in Coral Gables.  And that is where I did a few basic
          17    courses there, as well.
          18              And then I started a course called the Student
          19    Hat, H-A-T.  And the Student Hat course deals with -- it's
          20    the first course you take in Scientology that has to do with
          21    what they call the bridge.  And on the training side is
          22    where you train.  And on the auditing side is where you get
          23    the different levels of auditing.
          24              Hubbard writes that in order for someone to truly
          25    understand any subject matter, they have to first learn how
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           1    to learn.  And so the Student Hat course basically teaches
           2    you how to learn not only their subjects, but any subject
           3    you want to learn.
           4              There is a lot of looking up words in the
           5    dictionary, and it teaches you the barrister study.  And the
           6    course basically gets you to the point where you could
           7    understand or comprehend a subject matter better by having
           8    done this course.  And that was the first major course that
           9    I did there.
          10              I also did, on the other side of the bridge, on
          11    the auditing side, I did something called purification
          12    rundown, which is -- basically it consisted of spending two
          13    weeks in a sauna, and occasionally they would get you out of
          14    the sauna and ask you some questions, and you would go back
          15    in the sauna again.
          16              And you finish that when you say you are finished.
          17    There is no like you're going to be done in ten days.  It is
          18    not like that.  You kind of have to go through these
          19    processes in the sauna where you are supposed to have some
          20    realizations and figure out that, you know, you are done
          21    with the sauna.  And after two weeks, I was done with the
          22    sauna.
          23              You had to spend hours in this thing.  And they
          24    gave you vitamins and made me drink mineral oil and calcium
          25    and magnesium mixed together.  That was my first foray into
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           1    this.
           2              And since I was a good student and interested in
           3    the subject matter at the time, I was approached to join
           4    staff and become a staff member.  And --
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    So originally you were a public member or what has
           7    been considered public?
           8         A    Correct.  At that time I was paying for services
           9    and my training.  And I was going to the org -- I mean, I
          10    was going almost every single day, spending four, five, six
          11    hours there.
          12              So eventually, when they recruited me for staff,
          13    the first position I had was working with Paulette Culp who
          14    was a division called tech call-in.  I was a tech call-in
          15    person.  What I did, they gave me lists of people that had
          16    paid for services --
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, instead of a
          18         narrative, could we just have some questions and
          19         answers?
          20              Could we date when he became a staff member?
          21              THE COURT:  Tell us what date this was.
          22              THE WITNESS:  I became a staff member -- it was
          23         sometime in early 1987.
          24    BY MR. LIROT:
          25         Q    All right.  And is it a privilege to be recruited
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           1    for staff?
           2         A    You would think that like in the regular business
           3    world, you know, when somebody asks you to join their
           4    company, it's a privilege.  But after I saw -- they were
           5    always going after public to become staff.  They were always
           6    looking for more people to join staff.
           7              And I had a job.  I had a regular job at that
           8    time.  But being on staff wasn't like having a job, they
           9    don't pay you minimum wage, you get --
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, the question was is
          11         it a privilege to be a staff member.  And that was
          12         yes or no.  And we're having a narrative.
          13              THE COURT:  I think the narrative is -- is
          14         responsive, so it doesn't bother me.
          15              Go on ahead.  Continue.
          16         A    It wasn't something I wanted to make a decision to
          17    join staff, you know.  I saw what the people on staff were
          18    getting paid.  Some were getting like $60 a week.  At that
          19    time I was making $45,000 a year, so I wasn't about to leave
          20    my $45,000-a-year job to make, at the most, $50, $60, $70 a
          21    week.  I don't consider that to be a fair question in the
          22    asking.
          23              However, I decided that since I was interested in
          24    the subject matter and I liked the people that I was working
          25    with there, that I would join staff as a part-time staff
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           1    member.  So I was on what is called a foundation schedule,
           2    which means you are not there as many hours as full-time
           3    people.  And I would go there at night and on the weekends.
           4    I wouldn't go there during the day.  I still had my regular
           5    job.  And I would go there at night and I would be a staff
           6    member.
           7              THE COURT:  So staff members don't have to be
           8         Sea Org members?
           9              THE WITNESS:  Not in a Class IV org.  The Miami
          10         org or org structure, these are people basically in
          11         the community, just public people that join staff.
          12              THE COURT:  Okay.
          13              THE WITNESS:  And there are members of the
          14         staff that are Sea Org members.  There were several
          15         members of our staff that were on Sea Org.
          16              Later on when I was in OSA, when I was in the
          17         Department of Special Affairs, my direct senior was
          18         a Sea Org member.
          19              THE COURT:  So if most -- most of the people
          20         that I have been hearing about were either called
          21         public or Sea Org.  I guess there is public --
          22              THE WITNESS:  Staff and Sea Org.
          23              THE COURT:  Staff and Sea Org?
          24              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          25              MR. LIROT:  Judge, could I ask for continuing
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           1         permission to approach the bench and the witness
           2         with exhibits?
           3              THE COURT:  You may.  As long as you have
           4         something in your hand, that is fine.  If you want
           5         to approach him without something in your hand, I
           6         want to know why.
           7              MR. LIROT:  Very good.  We have a number --
           8         I'll give the Court copies we prepared for you.
           9              THE COURT:  Okay.
          10              MR. LIROT:  I have copies we've already
          11         premarked for identification.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Do I get a copy?
          13              MR. LIROT:  Yes.
          14              THE COURT:  So a staff could be a public member
          15         or Sea Org member?
          16              THE WITNESS:  Well, if you join the Sea Org,
          17         you're basically signed up for life.
          18              THE COURT:  I know that.
          19              THE WITNESS:  Your discretion -- where you come
          20         and go is theirs.
          21              THE COURT:  I know all this.  What I asked is
          22         if you are on staff, you can then be a public member
          23         or a Sea Org member?
          24              THE WITNESS:  Well, a public member is somebody
          25         who comes in, does a course and goes home.  A staff
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           1         member is someone who has to be there at a certain
           2         time, also does courses and services under the fact
           3         they are staff members and they go home.
           4              A Sea Org member is somebody who is in 24/7.
           5              THE COURT:  Okay.
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    Mr. Oliver, I handed you a document we had marked
           8    for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 136.  I'll
           9    ask you if you can identify that document.
          10         A    Yes, I can.  This is -- I guess it would be
          11    like -- this is something out of the business end, I guess,
          12    of Scientology.  This is a description of Department 20, the
          13    Department of Special Affairs.
          14         Q    And is that what is commonly known as OSA or
          15    Office of Special Affairs?
          16         A    Yes, the Office of Special Affairs, this is
          17    actually the branch of the Office of Special Affairs which
          18    is what is considered a Class IV org, which is lower orgs,
          19    which is below like an advanced org like in Los Angeles.  So
          20    the functions of this department are similar to the
          21    functions of the Office of Special Affairs.
          22         Q    All right.  And at one point did you become a
          23    member of the Office of Special Affairs?
          24         A    Yes.
          25         Q    All right.  Let me hand you what we've marked
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           1    as -- for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 137
           2    and ask you if you recognize this document.
           3         A    Yes, I recognize this document.  This is a
           4    document that was -- again, this is another document that
           5    was given to me once I was a member of the Office of Special
           6    Affairs.
           7              This document is a section of a complete printout
           8    that was made of all of the staff members of the Miami org
           9    at the time I was in the Office of Special Affairs.  And it
          10    lists which division, the name of the staff member, what
          11    department they were in, their post, and whether they were a
          12    full-time or day -- or day, meaning they worked part-time.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I have an objection
          14         which I would like to state for the record.
          15              THE COURT:  All right.
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  I can either do it through voir
          17         dire or state my objection now as to these
          18         documents.  But -- but --
          19              THE COURT:  He just simply asked him to
          20         identify a document.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.  We put Mr. Oliver
          22         on notice, we being the lawyers for the Church of
          23         Scientology -- on May 26, 1998 when documents began
          24         to appear on the Internet, we put Mr. Oliver on
          25         notice that he -- when he left staff apparently in
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           1         1991, he stole a series of documents, apparently
           2         including these and the rest of the documents from
           3         his hat.
           4              I mean, obviously this -- this one we're just
           5         seeing here, this is a staff roster.  I mean, this
           6         is a personnel document or private document.  There
           7         are various other documents.  He stole them.  He
           8         didn't have any right to them.
           9              We put him on notice.  We received a letter
          10         back -- he then hired Mr. Leipold.  And Mr. Leipold
          11         wrote a letter back saying, you know, "Come on."
          12              But at that point there was no further
          13         dissemination of these documents until today.  And I
          14         just heard, when Mr. Lirot started, that these are
          15         documents that now Mr. Lirot has, quote, subpoenaed
          16         for this proceeding, subpoenaed documents that
          17         Mr. Oliver knows he stole from the Church when he
          18         left the Church as an employee of the Church.
          19              So we object to the use of the documents
          20         because of the way in which these documents were
          21         obtained.
          22              THE COURT:  You subpoenaed these documents?
          23              MR. LIROT:  Yes.  He produced these documents
          24         pursuant to a subpoena duces tecum.
          25              THE COURT:  Your objection is overruled.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  On cross-examination I can get
           2         into the circumstances under which he obtained
           3         these --
           4              THE COURT:  Yes.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  -- documents?
           6              MR. LIROT:  Very good.
           7              THE COURT:  But are you trying to tell me that
           8         you have a roster that has who works on what days is
           9         a stolen document?
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  There is a whole stack of
          11         documents.
          12              THE COURT:  You stood up and you started
          13         talking about this is a roster of the people he
          14         worked with and what department they were in and
          15         when they worked.  You stood up, told me this was a
          16         stolen document.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  I wanted to make sure that I got
          18         on the record immediately what I believe is
          19         happening, which is this entire stack of documents
          20         in front of you are documents that Mr. Oliver --
          21              THE COURT:  And I am taking it that this is
          22         considered by the Church of Scientology to be a
          23         document that, if this man is on staff, could not
          24         take home to make a copy of.  Is that right?
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  That, and the other documents.
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           1         Just as my staff isn't supposed to take home
           2         documents with regard to personnel matters.
           3              THE COURT:  Okay.  I understand.
           4    BY MR. LIROT:
           5         Q    Well, Mr. Oliver --
           6              THE COURT:  This first thing is something that
           7         says what is the Department of Special Affairs.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  It is not the content we have a
           9         problem with.  It is the manner in which the
          10         documents were obtained.
          11              THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  I asked you whether
          12         or not a member of the Department of Special Affairs
          13         could Xerox and take home a copy that defines where
          14         he works, or is that considered stealing in the
          15         Church?  I mean --
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, let's go through the rest
          17         of the documents.  I just wanted to put my objection
          18         on the record, because there is correspondence that
          19         went back and forth.  There is obviously a lot of
          20         other documents that are in this stack.
          21              THE COURT:  Well, go on ahead.
          22              MR. LIROT:  All right.
          23    BY MR. LIROT:
          24         Q    Mr. Oliver --
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  If I had the whole stack, I
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           1         could go through them quickly.  But Mr. Lirot is
           2         handing me one at a time, instead of giving me the
           3         whole stack.
           4              MR. LIROT:  I'll make sure he gets a copy of
           5         every exhibit as it is tendered, your Honor.
           6              THE COURT:  All right.
           7    BY MR. LIROT:
           8         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
           9    marked as Exhibits 138, 139 and 140.  And I'm going to ask
          10    you if you recognize those documents.
          11         A    Yes, I do recognize these documents.
          12         Q    All right.  Can you tell the Court what those
          13    documents are?
          14         A    The first document, 138, this is a section of an
          15    org board for a Class IV org which delineates the three
          16    different departments under the executive division, which is
          17    Division 7.
          18              Department 20 is the Department of Special
          19    Affairs.
          20              Underneath the Department of Special Affairs are
          21    listed all of the posts of the Department of Special
          22    Affairs.
          23              Investigation Section.  And below Investigation
          24    Section it says "Investigations Officer."  That was my post
          25    when I was in the Office of Special Affairs.
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           1              The second document is a description of the --
           2              THE COURT:  You say second document --
           3              THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, Page 139.  Number 139.
           4              THE COURT:  It is Exhibit --
           5              THE WITNESS:  Exhibit, sorry.
           6              THE COURT:  The "P" is for plaintiff.
           7              THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
           8         A    The Office of Special Affairs International.  This
           9    describes for -- I guess this would be either -- this
          10    actually came out of a document -- a brochure that was made
          11    for the public that describes the Office of Special Affairs
          12    International and how it operates through the continental
          13    liaison office down into the Department of Special Affairs
          14    of a Class IV org.
          15              So what you have is the structure of how
          16    information flows up and down the chain of command.
          17              At the bottom it shows that OSA Int is part of the
          18    Flag Command Bureau.  And above that is the commanding
          19    officer of OSA Int.  And above that is WDC OSA.
          20              So you have the structure, how it goes from all of
          21    the way at the top, to all of the way to the bottom.
          22              THE COURT:  Okay.
          23    BY MR. LIROT:
          24         Q    All right.  And, Mr. Oliver, if you could -- it
          25    speaks for itself but if you could explain to the Court what
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           1    Exhibit 140 is?
           2         A    Exhibit 140 is our -- are copies of the top one is
           3    an IAS, International Association of Scientologists card, a
           4    staff-awarded card for membership in the International
           5    Association of Scientologists.  Instead of -- if I was a
           6    public person and I was going to join ISA, it costs $2,000
           7    for a lifetime membership.  Since I was a staff status 2
           8    staff member, that card was given to me as an award.
           9              The bottom card was an ID card that was issued to
          10    me when I traveled to Los Angeles to work at the higher
          11    level with the Office of Special Affairs in what was called
          12    the can unit.
          13              THE COURT:  What?
          14         A    Can.  C-A-N.  The can unit.  This particular card
          15    had a magnetic stripe on the back which allowed me access to
          16    go in and out of an area there known as the Pac Base,
          17    spelled P-A-C, the Pac Base.  This allowed me to get in and
          18    out of the different areas that were secured.
          19              THE COURT:  When it says "Post DSA," is that
          20         the Department of Special Affairs?
          21              THE WITNESS:  Right.  And after that, I-N-V
          22         means invest.  So that lets them know what my post
          23         was in my org when I was in Los Angeles.  They would
          24         see, well, what is your post.  My post in Los
          25         Angeles was I was -- I was a Department of Special
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           1         Affairs investigator.
           2              THE COURT:  Is the Office of Special Affairs or
           3         Department of Special Affairs one in the same thing?
           4              THE WITNESS:  Yes, it's the higher level of the
           5         same -- same section of the -- of the organization.
           6              THE COURT:  But there is no distinction between
           7         Division of Special Affairs and --
           8              THE WITNESS:  Department of Special Affairs.
           9              THE COURT:  Department of Special Affairs?
          10              THE WITNESS:  The only distinction is that it
          11         is called the Department of Special Affairs.  When
          12         you are in a Class IV organization, when you are in
          13         like the Miami organization, that is what it is
          14         called for name function.  But functions and duties
          15         I had there were identical to the functions and
          16         duties I had in Los Angeles working for the Office
          17         of Special Affairs.
          18              THE COURT:  That is what they call Office of
          19         Special Affairs?
          20              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          21              THE COURT:  Which is more than a Class IV org?
          22              THE WITNESS:  Correct, yes.
          23              THE COURT:  Thank you.
          24              MR. LIROT:  Judge, at this point I would like
          25         to move Exhibits 136 through 140 into evidence.
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           1              THE COURT:  Any objection?
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  No.
           3              THE COURT:  They'll be received.
           4              (Discussion had off the record.)
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'll hand you what has been marked for
           7    identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 141 and ask you if you
           8    recognize that document.
           9         A    Yes, I recognize this document.
          10         Q    All right, can you tell the Court what Exhibit 141
          11    is?
          12         A    When I was recruited in -- it was late 1989, early
          13    1990, I was recruited for the Office of Special Affairs to
          14    be the investigations officer.
          15              When they recruited me for this position, they
          16    required me to fill out this form, which is called Life
          17    History Questionnaire.
          18              I had -- I made a copy of it because when -- when
          19    they gave me this, I felt that some of the questions on here
          20    were a little -- a little more than I ever wanted to answer
          21    or put on a piece of paper to anybody.
          22              THE COURT:  This was for the -- once you were
          23         going to join the Department of Special Affairs?
          24              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I had been on staff
          25         previous.  As I mentioned, I was a tech call-in
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           1         officer.
           2              After a little more than a year, my financial
           3         situation required me to spend more time working, so
           4         I routed off of staff.  And at that time I was given
           5         what is called a freeloader bill.  A freeloader bill
           6         is something they give you that once you join staff
           7         and you leave, any courses or anything you took
           8         while you were in Scientology, you pay them back.
           9              So about maybe two months or a month and a half
          10         after I left staff, I paid off that freeloader bill
          11         and I came back as a public staff member taking
          12         courses.
          13              I then started doing some work for the Office
          14         of -- Department of Special Affairs as basically a
          15         volunteer.  And that was from probably -- maybe
          16         mid-'88, all of the way up until '89, early '90 when
          17         I was actually asked to be a staff member.  At that
          18         time is when they gave me this to fill out.
          19    BY MR. LIROT:
          20         Q    Did any of the questions on the first page, I
          21    guess Questions 1 through 11, cause you any great concern?
          22         A    Mmm, well, not -- not really.  I mean, not
          23    anything on here -- nothing on here really bothered me on
          24    this page, to tell you the truth.  There was just -- I guess
          25    they had to ask me these questions.  So I didn't have too
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           1    much of a problem with that.
           2         Q    On the second page --
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, my objection is this
           4         is interesting, I suppose, and maybe you want to
           5         hear it.  But what does this have to do with the
           6         case?
           7              THE COURT:  I don't know.
           8              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I think I would like to get
           9         into some of these questions here.  Obviously, part
          10         of the theory of our case is that the OSA has
          11         certain practices and policies and customs.  And I
          12         think it is interesting and certainly very relevant
          13         to look at what -- what background information the
          14         Church looked at before you are even allowed to
          15         become a member of the OSA.
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  Except Mr. Minton wasn't a
          17         member of the Office of Special Affairs --
          18              THE COURT:  I think part of the allegation --
          19         at least as I recall it, part of the allegation is
          20         the Office of Special Affairs would have been
          21         involved with the Lisa McPherson case from the
          22         beginning.
          23              And Mr. Miscavige, because of that, would have
          24         been advised.  And Mr. Miscavige, of course, the
          25         allegation is, then gave a direction.  So --
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  Except that this is questions.
           2         What Mr. Lirot is saying is questions somebody who
           3         might become a member would be asked.  What does
           4         that have to do with it?
           5              THE COURT:  I don't know because I haven't read
           6         this.
           7              Go on ahead.
           8              MR. LIROT:  All right.
           9    BY MR. LIROT:
          10         Q    Question 12 says --
          11              THE COURT:  I dare say I am sure I heard a lot
          12         of information in this hearing that will turn out to
          13         be irrelevant.
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    Mr. Oliver, Question 12 says:  "Are you or have
          16    you ever been a newspaper reporter or journalist of any
          17    kind?  If yes, give full details."
          18              Do you know of any member of OSA that was actually
          19    admitted that answered yes to that question?
          20         A    Not to my knowledge.
          21         Q    And I think that they asked you about your
          22    criminal record.  They ask you if you -- something about
          23    drug use.
          24              I think on the third page under 34 it says, "Has
          25    your mother expressed any opinion against Dianetics and
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           1    Scientology, or does she have any objection to your working
           2    in connection with it?"
           3              Would a parent's discontent with Scientology
           4    eliminate somebody from consideration for membership in OSA?
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Is he now asking for
           6         his opinion?
           7              THE COURT:  Right.  That would be something
           8         that -- that I'm not sure he would know.
           9              MR. LIROT:  Judge, we would like to move
          10         Exhibit 141 into evidence.
          11              THE COURT:  I'm going to let it be received.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm not objecting to the
          13         exhibit.
          14              THE COURT:  I'm going to let it be received.  I
          15         don't know that it has any relevance, but -- but as
          16         I said, I received a lot of things that will
          17         probably turn out that are not relevant.
          18    BY MR. LIROT:
          19         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
          20    marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 142
          21    and ask if you can identify that for the Court.
          22         A    Yes.  This is a Sea Org contract that was given to
          23    me when I was in California.  I was -- this is probably the
          24    closest they ever got to actually getting me to join the Sea
          25    Org.
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           1              I had agreed to sign it and to turn it in before I
           2    left to some few individuals that had approached me when I
           3    was in California about joining the Sea Org.
           4              I had been approached earlier in my career in
           5    Scientology by people wanting me to join the Sea Org and --
           6    Mmm -- when they approached me -- when they approached me in
           7    L.A., I had reservations about it because of my
           8    experience --
           9              THE COURT:  He really is way past your
          10         question.
          11              MR. LIROT:  A little bit.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    Well, did you ultimately join the Sea Org?
          14         A    No, I refused to hand this back in, the signed
          15    contract.  I didn't want to do it after I --
          16         Q    Were you at any point pressured to join the Sea
          17    Org?
          18         A    When they first tried to get me to join in Miami,
          19    yes, I was -- I was told to go to a room, auditing room in
          20    the Miami org on the second floor, where there were two Sea
          21    Org members there who were on a recruit mission.
          22              And they kept me in the room for about three
          23    hours.  After about the first hour and a half, I -- Mmm -- I
          24    felt very uncomfortable, because they made the statement --
          25              THE COURT:  I'm not sure what this has to do
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           1         with anything.
           2              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I'll not even move that one
           3         into evidence.
           4              THE COURT:  Okay.
           5              MR. LIROT:  I'll move along.
           6              THE COURT:  Okay.
           7    BY MR. LIROT:
           8         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
           9    marked as Exhibit 143 and ask you if you recognize that
          10    particular document?
          11         A    Yes, I recognize this document.
          12         Q    Can you tell the Court what Exhibit 143 is?
          13         A    This is the hat pack that was given to me in Los
          14    Angeles for the Department of Special Affairs, to become a
          15    fully hatted investigations officer.
          16              THE COURT:  That is something I heard said a
          17         lot of times.  And I really never asked anybody what
          18         it is.  What is a hat exactly?
          19              THE WITNESS:  A hat is something that you do.
          20         For example, your hat here -- you are a judge.  That
          21         is the hat you wear.  It encompasses all of the
          22         things you have to know in order to do your job.
          23              A hat pack in Scientology is a pack of
          24         information like this that puts together
          25         instructions and policies that apply to your
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           1         position in the organization.  And you are to learn
           2         these policies that apply to what you do, you are to
           3         do the steps in this course.  And at the completion
           4         of the course, you are then qualified to hold that
           5         position and you are acknowledged as being a fully
           6         hatted staff member.
           7              So this is basically your instruction manual
           8         for your job, basically.
           9              THE COURT:  If somebody said, "What is your
          10         hat," that means "What is your job"?
          11              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          12              THE COURT:  All right.  I may have been told
          13         that before but I forgot.
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    Now, what is the significance -- this said
          16    "Investigations Officer, Full Hat Check Sheet."
          17              How is this document utilized in you acquiring the
          18    authority to be a member of OSA on the -- as an
          19    investigations officer?
          20         A    What this does is it is something you have to
          21    complete.  It's -- like I said, it's the instruction manual.
          22    You have to go through every step in here.  You have to --
          23    there are three lines next to every single step here where
          24    you put your initials, then the date, then you are checked
          25    out by another individual within the Office of Special
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           1    Affairs to ensure that you fully understand all of the
           2    policies and everything that is written about a particular
           3    policy as it reflects on your position.
           4              So you really have to know this stuff in order to
           5    be a fully-hatted staff member for that particular post.
           6         Q    All right.  And as you go through the document, if
           7    you turn to Page 2, it says, "Section A, Keeping Scientology
           8    Working," it has a "1" and an asterisk there.
           9              What are those documents identified there?
          10         A    Anything with an asterisk next to it, you have to
          11    do a star rate checkout, where on other policy letters that
          12    don't have asterisk, you can just read the policy letter and
          13    initial it and just keep going.
          14              On a star rate checkout, you have to sit with
          15    somebody, put the policy -- they take their policy and they
          16    look at it and they ask you questions off of it.  They just
          17    pick questions out at random off the policy letter and ask
          18    you for the definition of a word they picked out.  They can
          19    ask you for the definition of -- of a specific technical
          20    word, or they can ask you the definition of the word "the"
          21    if they want to.
          22         Q    And where it says "HCOP," those are Hubbard
          23    Communications Office Policy letters?
          24         A    Yes.
          25              THE COURT:  Is that to be sure you have read it
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           1         and having somebody sort of check out you have read
           2         that particular document?
           3              THE WITNESS:  Correct.  And they pick out words
           4         at random, because if there is -- let's say a
           5         specific word about something specialized and you
           6         just kind of read over it and you didn't really
           7         understand what that word meant, that kind of
           8         catches those misunderstandings so you can fully
           9         understand what you read, so you just don't say,
          10         "Yeah, yeah, I read it," and you sign off.
          11              They go, "What does the word 'keeping' mean?"
          12         So if you have the definition of that word, then
          13         they go, "Okay, you studied it."
          14              THE COURT:  And if you don't get it right, then
          15         you have to read it again?
          16              THE WITNESS:  They give you what is called a
          17         flunk.  They tell you you flunk.  And then they make
          18         you go back and you have to look up that word and
          19         make sure you have the full definition of it.
          20              THE COURT:  Okay.
          21    BY MR. LIROT:
          22         Q    And this hat -- the hat checklist is broken down
          23    into several subsections.  Section A is Keeping Scientology
          24    Working.
          25              Section B gives you a number of key words.  What
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           1    is the import of those key words?
           2         A    This is like what I was describing a minute ago
           3    about a star rate checkout.
           4              THE COURT:  Your star what?
           5              THE WITNESS:  Star rate, R-A-T-E.  Star rate
           6         checkout.
           7              THE COURT:  All right.
           8         A    Students that complete a course called -- students
           9    that complete another course, that means you are
          10    super-literate, don't have to do star rate checkouts
          11    anymore.  Once you do that course, you are considered fast
          12    flow, which means you can go through stuff without having to
          13    get a checkout.
          14              So unless you have done that course, any place
          15    where you see that asterisk, you have to get checked out on.
          16              These words here are specific to the post of
          17    investigations officer.  So this is -- this is kind of like
          18    the -- I want to say like the -- the key words associated
          19    with this position in the organization.  So they want to
          20    make sure you have a full understanding of all these words,
          21    in particular.  So instead of committing these words to --
          22    you know, just randomly picking them out of a policy
          23    letter -- they have taken those words and delineated them
          24    here as something that individually needs to be looked up
          25    and make sure you have a full understanding of the
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           1    definition.
           2    BY MR. LIROT:
           3         Q    And is that because those words would be used in
           4    routing slips or reports or things of that nature?
           5         A    They would be used in any context of that
           6    particular position.  They may not be used in other areas of
           7    the organization, you know.  Somebody in a tech area might
           8    never need, you know, to know the definition of these words.
           9    If they know them, fine.  But for this position, they are
          10    required that you know them.
          11         Q    All right.  Subsection C talks about "Invest
          12    Basics," and it talks about a clay demo.
          13              Let me back up.  It says OSA NW9.  What type of
          14    document does that represent?
          15         A    That is an OSA network order.  Those are specific
          16    documents only for people within the OSA network, the Office
          17    of Special Affairs network.  And that goes from WDC OSA, all
          18    of the way down to the Department of Special Affairs in a
          19    Class IV org.
          20         Q    WDC being the watchdog committee?
          21         A    Correct.
          22         Q    Which, as I think the Court is familiar with the
          23    organizational chart, that is at the very top?
          24         A    Highest echelon.
          25         Q    What is a clay demo?  Number 2 there, it says,
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           1    "Clay demo, the definition of intelligence"?
           2         A    Clay demo is another tool to assist in
           3    understanding.  And it is used in all of Scientology course
           4    packs and in the Scientology courses.
           5              A person sits at a table.  You have some clay
           6    there in different colors and whatnot.  And you are given a
           7    concept.  For example, definition of intelligence.  So you
           8    would actually take pieces of clay and make little stick men
           9    and lay out some aspects defining intelligence, like maybe a
          10    little man looking in a file cabinet.  Say you do that with
          11    clay, then put a little label on the file cabinet, put a
          12    little label on the document he's pulling out, and maybe a
          13    little label on the man itself, and put "man" and put
          14    "investigator" there.  Then you would have the definition of
          15    intelligence written on a piece of paper and put that face
          16    down in front of it.
          17              And then the supervisor comes over and looks at
          18    your little clay demo with all those little labels sticking
          19    on it, and then they figure out from your little -- you
          20    know -- little thing you created there, they figure out it
          21    looks like intelligence, it looks like you are talking about
          22    intelligence here, an intelligence activity.
          23              Then they flip over the paper and they see
          24    "definition of intelligence."  And they say that is a pass,
          25    which means you have the concept so well that you can
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           1    actually create it in 3D so someone else looking at the
           2    exact same thing can say, "Okay, I get it."  So that proves
           3    that you really got it.  If you can create it in clay, you
           4    really got it.
           5              THE COURT:  I never get it in clay.
           6              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, I do have a First
           7         Amendment objection to this.  He's describing his
           8         version of how Scientology works and what
           9         Scientology processes --
          10              THE COURT:  Keep it to what it is you did, not
          11         what you think it means to Scientology.  What you
          12         did.
          13              And that would cure your objection, I take it,
          14         Counsel.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  Just for the record,
          16         it's my understanding that Mr. Oliver never
          17         completed this course that Mr. -- this hat pack that
          18         Mr. Lirot is going through.  So to the extent that
          19         he's waxing eloquent about this, he should confine
          20         it to his experience.
          21              THE COURT:  Exactly.
          22    BY MR. LIROT:
          23         Q    Now, Section D on Page 4 says "Department 20."
          24    And I guess it gives a number of different checklists there.
          25    And --
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           1              THE COURT:  What section are you on, Counsel?
           2              MR. LIROT:  I was on Page 4, your Honor.
           3              THE COURT:  All right, I see it.
           4              MR. LIROT:  I think, quite honestly, Judge, the
           5         rest of the document basically speaks for itself.
           6         All of the headings are there.  And it gives the
           7         sections, apparently, you have to be proficient in
           8         and able to go through this particular hat pack and
           9         achieve proficiency in these different areas.
          10              Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 143 into
          11         evidence.
          12              THE COURT:  Any objection?
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  No.
          14              THE COURT:  It will be received.
          15    BY MR. LIROT:
          16         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
          17    marked as Exhibit 144 and ask if you can identify that for
          18    the Court.
          19         A    Yes.  This is an investigations check sheet.
          20         Q    What is this document used for?
          21         A    This is a check sheet that comes out of the
          22    Volunteer Ministers Handbook.  It's a mini course that is
          23    done -- in my particular case, when I became a member of the
          24    Office of Special Affairs, the first thing they do is give
          25    you a mini hat, which is basically a basic course you do so
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           1    you can be instantly posted on that particular job.
           2              So I did this course -- actually started this
           3    course, and I was just about finished with it before I had
           4    to go out to Los Angeles.  When I went out to Los Angeles in
           5    1991, I actually redid the course again from the beginning
           6    because, you know, I had started over there and they said,
           7    "No, we want you to redo it again."  So I did the course
           8    again and I actually completed this in Los Angeles in 1991
           9    at AOLA.
          10              MR. LIROT:  I would like to move 144 into
          11         evidence.
          12              THE COURT:  Any objection?
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  No.  So this is the 1991 --
          14              THE WITNESS:  Yes, there was one prior to that
          15         but it was left in Miami.
          16    BY MR. LIROT:
          17         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
          18    marked Exhibits 145 and 146 and ask you if you can identify
          19    those for the Court.
          20         A    Yes, I can identify this.  This is -- these are
          21    ODC checklists.  145 is the short form checklist ODC.  146
          22    is the long --
          23              THE COURT:  What is ODC?
          24              THE WITNESS:  Overt data collection.
          25              THE COURT:  All right.
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           1              THE WITNESS:  These forms are preliminary forms
           2         that are used for an investigation once a target has
           3         been identified.
           4    BY MR. LIROT:
           5         Q    Up at the top it says:  "OSA Int ED" and it has a
           6    little dash.  What significance does that line have?
           7         A    It comes from OSA International.  It's an
           8    executive directive.  I don't know what the dash is,
           9    something you were to have written in but they never wrote
          10    it in on this one.
          11         Q    Where it says "Name," what is it that would be I
          12    guess characteristic of someone whose name would be placed
          13    in here as the subject of an investigation or an ODC?
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  He's asking for an
          15         opinion again.
          16              THE COURT:  I don't even understand the
          17         question.  You mean you wouldn't put the person's
          18         name in, like you -- he wouldn't put his own name in
          19         there?
          20              THE WITNESS:  No, this document -- I filled out
          21         plenty of these so I can tell you.
          22              THE COURT:  All right.
          23              THE WITNESS:  Once a target was named, they
          24         would say, "Okay, you're going to do an ODC on," you
          25         know, "Luke Lirot," for example.
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           1              THE COURT:  Okay.
           2              THE WITNESS:  I would write Luke Lirot's name
           3         up there, and I would have the date I started doing
           4         this form.  Then I would go down the list here and
           5         investigate every single one of these things under
           6         "Courts:  Federal, civil; public offices; marriage
           7         records; library card," anything I can find to find
           8         any information out about Luke Lirot.
           9              THE COURT:  All right.  The "date started"
          10         would be the date you started your investigation,
          11         and "date completed" --
          12              THE WITNESS:  No.  This particular form.  This
          13         would be the day I started this particular form and
          14         completed this form.  This could be part of a larger
          15         packet of information on a subject.
          16              So the investigation start date and end date is
          17         just --
          18              THE COURT:  The same day?
          19              THE WITNESS:  Not the same day.  But, for
          20         example, if I started an investigation on Luke, it
          21         could be ongoing, so this form where it says "date
          22         completed" means the day I completed filling out
          23         this form.
          24              The investigation would have -- there would be
          25         a lot more information when we're doing an
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           1         investigation on an individual.
           2              THE COURT:  I see.
           3    BY MR. LIROT:
           4         Q    Now, Exhibit 146 says the "Long Form ODC
           5    Checklist."  What is the necessity of having the longer
           6    form?
           7         A    More information.
           8              THE COURT:  Tell me what "ODC" is again?
           9              THE WITNESS:  Overt data collection.
          10              THE COURT:  Overt?
          11              THE WITNESS:  O-V-E-R-T.  That means
          12         information that can be readily available that you
          13         can get in plain light of day.  For example, like I
          14         could go down to the driver's license office and try
          15         to get someone's driver's license information.  Or
          16         go to the library --
          17              THE COURT:  Overt, as opposed to covert?
          18              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          19    BY MR. LIROT:
          20         Q    Mr. Oliver, in the tasks, when you would engage in
          21    the effort to fill out the short form ODC checklist, what
          22    was the purpose for your accumulation of that information?
          23         A    Mmm, many times because I worked in investigations
          24    we didn't -- I wasn't given the full picture.  I was
          25    given -- whatever information was given to me, that is what
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           1    I worked on.
           2              So if they said that we've identified John Smith
           3    as someone who is antagonistic, we need to pull an ODC on
           4    this guy, go pull an ODC on John Smith, he lives in Miami,
           5    Florida.  That is sometimes all I was told.
           6              Other times I was told, you know, maybe this man
           7    was running a squirrel group, or this individual was a
           8    disaffected member, or this individual is suing the Church.
           9              I would be given some information but not complete
          10    information because my job was to investigate, report back
          11    data, write reports and whatever other intelligence
          12    functions they needed for whatever subjects they needed.
          13              MR. LIROT:  I would like to move 145 and 146
          14         into evidence.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  If I could have standing
          16         objection.
          17              THE COURT:  Relevance?
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  As to relevance, yes, Judge.
          19              THE COURT:  I am getting confused.  It is
          20         interesting, but what does it have to do with this
          21         case?
          22              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I think if you look at these
          23         documents -- and I think I can tie it up.
          24         Obviously, we have heard --
          25              THE COURT:  If you think you can tie it up, go
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           1         ahead.
           2              You have your continuing objection.
           3              If you can't tie it up, I may go back and
           4         revisit some of this.  Okay?
           5              MR. LIROT:  Understood, Judge.
           6              THE COURT:  All right.
           7    BY MR. LIROT:
           8         Q    All right.  Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what
           9    has been marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit
          10    147 and ask if you can identify this document for the Court.
          11         A    Yes, I can.  This document -- this was faxed to me
          12    from Los Angeles to the Miami org when I was there.  This is
          13    part of my hat.  This delineates the description, point
          14    value and breakdown of all the stats that affected my
          15    particular post when I was an invest officer.
          16              There were ten stats specifically.  This breaks
          17    down each one of them and defines their -- what it is that
          18    the attack is, what policy letters reference that particular
          19    statistic, what the point value is for the individuals on
          20    that -- on that -- in that particular section.
          21         Q    What is the importance of stats?  Why would that
          22    be an issue?
          23         A    Every individual in Scientology, whether you are a
          24    staff member, a Sea Org member, or just a public person,
          25    your production is measured by your stats.
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           1              If you are a student, for example, every day,
           2    after you finish a course, however many pages you read,
           3    however many checkouts you did, they have a point value.  So
           4    every student -- for example, when I was in the academy,
           5    when I was doing a course, every day I would have to write
           6    down how many of the different things I did.  And there was
           7    a board in the academy, and it had graphs, and I had my own
           8    graph, and I would put there how many star rate checkouts I
           9    did and how many pages I read.  And they were worth points.
          10              So they measured how good a student you were by
          11    how high up your graph is going.  When you are a staff
          12    member -- for example, if you were a staff member here at
          13    the courthouse, they would say how many courses did you hear
          14    today, or how many witnesses did you put on the stand, or
          15    how many documents did you take in evidence.
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  You would be in trouble on
          17         stats.
          18              MR. LIROT:  I think the stats have taken a hit
          19         in this hearing.
          20              THE COURT:  I think so.
          21         A    So in the Office of Special Affairs, this is what
          22    breaks down what my stats were.  And they all relate back to
          23    whatever the primary function of that position is.  It is
          24    stated at the top, which is called "Investigation Section
          25    VFP," which stands for "value of a final product," which is
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           1    what is the value of a final product of someone in this
           2    position?
           3              And it says:  "A section that brings about the
           4    failure of influence of hostile groups or persons."
           5              So that is the function of --
           6              THE COURT:  Where are you reading?
           7              THE WITNESS:  The very top.
           8              THE COURT:  My very top seems to be blacked
           9         out.
          10              THE WITNESS:  Well, this is the way I actually
          11         got this, because when it was faxed to our office,
          12         this was the tail-end of another report that was not
          13         unrelated to this section.
          14              THE COURT:  Oh, I see.
          15              THE WITNESS:  Under the blackout it says --
          16         like "number of well-done auditing hours" I can see
          17         crossed out.  See, that has to do with auditing in
          18         something faxed before.  It wasn't related to this
          19         subject.  So they just crossed it out.
          20              THE COURT:  Now tell me where you are reading.
          21              THE WITNESS:  Right here at the top
          22         "Investigation Section, VFP."
          23              THE COURT:  I see.
          24              THE WITNESS:  That shows the two valuable final
          25         products of this position.
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           1              Then it goes down and breaks down what the
           2         different stats were.
           3    BY MR. LIROT:
           4         Q    Who is it that -- I guess they have different
           5    points for different -- different -- I guess one point for
           6    every attack?  I'm about ten lines down.
           7         A    Uh-huh.
           8         Q    "This stat is counted one point for every attacker
           9    plus one point if the attack is local, two points if the
          10    attack is regional, four points if the attack is national."
          11              Who is it that keeps track of that?
          12         A    Well, we keep track of it at my level.  For
          13    example, I kept track of my own stats for my own org and any
          14    other org underneath me or -- excuse me, any mission
          15    underneath me.
          16              For example, the Miami org kept the stats of the
          17    org and the Ft. Lauderdale mission at that time.  These
          18    stats are reported up the chain of command.  They would have
          19    gone to the CLO, which is basically the next level of
          20    management in OSA, which would be, I would consider -- in my
          21    particular case, it was OSA East US.
          22              The continent is divided into two halves.  There
          23    is OSA East US and OSA West US.  So our stats would go from
          24    me, let's say, to OSA East US.  OSA East US would combine
          25    those stats with other stats from other orgs in that part of
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           1    the country and they would go up to OSA Int.  And from there
           2    they go to WDC OSA.
           3              So that is basically the way it is broken down.
           4    All of the information is gathered from the bottom of the
           5    statistics, so at WDC, they have all of the statistics
           6    compiled of all of the attacks that are going against
           7    various organizations and various individuals.  And it is
           8    all handled by them.
           9              THE COURT:  WDC is watchdog --
          10              THE WITNESS:  Watchdog committee.  That is
          11         correct.  They're the top echelon.  WDC OSA.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    I guess the middle -- a little below the middle of
          14    the first page, going over to the second page, it has
          15    "Category of attacks are listed below."
          16              If you, as a member of OSA or in the
          17    investigations section, would you go out and just identify
          18    for yourself some activity that you need to be an attack?
          19    Or would you be assigned a special project that fill into
          20    one of these subsections?
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  He needs to speak
          22         about his personal experience, instead of giving
          23         some hypothetical.
          24              MR. LIROT:  That is exactly --
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Again, I don't know what this
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           1         has to do with anything.
           2              THE COURT:  I don't, either.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
           4              THE COURT:  I have given Mr. Lirot the benefit
           5         of the doubt -- he hasn't been here -- that he's
           6         going to tie it up.  If he doesn't, why he doesn't.
           7              So keep this to your personal level.
           8              THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am, I will.
           9         A    Most of the time what was given to me were either
          10    direct assignments from either the OSA US level which would
          11    be A -- the letter A Programs Aid East U.S.  And that was a
          12    lady by the name of Toni, T-O-N-I, Charambis (phonetic).  I
          13    don't know how to spell the last name.  I think it starts
          14    with C-H.
          15              She would sometimes speak to me directly, or she
          16    would speak to my senior -- the direct person over me in my
          17    org, which is the DSA, which was Tracy Pase, P-A-S-E.  She
          18    was a Sea Org member.
          19              They would -- they would be the ones giving me
          20    assignments.  But I had also gotten other assignments from
          21    people higher up the chain of command.  There was a lady by
          22    the name of Kirsten who also used to call me.  I think she
          23    was an OSA staff security officer.
          24              And they would give me targets.  They would say,
          25    "We want an ODC on, let's say, Michael Langon.  We want an
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           1    ODC on Kerry Gleason."
           2              They would assign me to do investigations on
           3    individuals.  And they would say, "Okay, such and such a
           4    person made a threat to the organization."  Or, "We got a
           5    call and complaint from such and such a person."  Whatever
           6    it was that they needed investigating they would give to me.
           7              I wouldn't actually go out looking for things to
           8    investigate.  It never happened that way.  There was always
           9    plenty of names on the list of people that were subjects of
          10    Scientology, or things would come up.  And that is how I
          11    would address those issues.  I would never actively go out
          12    seeking, you know --
          13    BY MR. LIROT:
          14         Q    Number 3 says:  "A suit filed against a church
          15    entity or individual."
          16              Obviously, you saw the subpoena.  You were handed
          17    a case involving the Church or an entity related to the
          18    Church.
          19              Do you have any independent knowledge that any
          20    individual associated with the lawsuit against the Church
          21    would not be the result of an investigation?
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  That -- I mean, that
          23         is a hypothetical.  I mean, I didn't even understand
          24         what he means.  He's talking about -- whatever that
          25         is, overt this or that when you have court records.
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           1              Is he suggesting that Mr. Dandar or I don't
           2         have some ability to search court records and
           3         bankruptcy files and things like that with regard to
           4         any witness that -- that testifies?
           5              THE COURT:  I don't think he's suggesting that.
           6         I think what he's suggesting -- I think what he
           7         asked is whether or not anyone who filed a suit
           8         against the Church would -- would have an ODC.
           9              MR. LIROT:  An ODC.
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  But that is a hypothetical.  If
          11         he can cite his own experience as to any particular
          12         lawsuit that he was aware of --
          13              THE COURT:  How long did you work in this
          14         department?
          15              THE WITNESS:  Mmm, as an actual staff member, I
          16         think it was about two years.
          17              THE COURT:  Two years?
          18              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          19              THE COURT:  During that two-year period of
          20         time, were you ever asked to do an ODC on someone
          21         who filed a lawsuit against the Church?
          22              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          23              THE COURT:  Did you know other people in this
          24         department?  I mean, it seemed like that would be
          25         fairly common, from what he's saying.  I don't think
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           1         you have to be an expert for that.  The man worked
           2         there two years.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  I think he just answered the
           4         question.
           5              THE WITNESS:  I have done lawsuits -- I mean
           6         investigations on people that filed lawsuits against
           7         Scientology.
           8              THE COURT:  Okay.
           9              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
          10         147 into evidence.
          11              THE COURT:  Okay.  Subject to your connecting
          12         it up.
          13              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Well, your Honor, in addition
          14         to the relevance objection, there is a cumulative --
          15         a cumulative aspect of this where this -- the
          16         plaintiff is trying to go into every aspect of the
          17         management, the organization, the beliefs and
          18         practices of Scientology religion.
          19              And there is a point at which the entanglement
          20         becomes a real constitutional problem.
          21              Now, I know that there are serious allegations.
          22         We've brought a serious motion.  But just because
          23         the Church has alleged that Mr. Dandar suborned
          24         perjury and permitted perjury, and just because the
          25         Church alleged that he made a bogus allegation of
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           1         murder, which he --
           2              THE COURT:  And bogus allegation that David
           3         Miscavige knew about this, and on and on.
           4              MR. LIEBERMAN:  But that doesn't open the
           5         Church up to waiving all its First Amendment
           6         protections --
           7              THE COURT:  I haven't heard this man violate
           8         the First Amendment once yet.  He talked about what
           9         he did when he was a member of this church.
          10              MR. LIEBERMAN:  I'm talking about --
          11              THE COURT:  He hasn't interpreted any church
          12         policy.  He has done nothing except say he was a
          13         member of this church, he had a certain position and
          14         this is what he did.  That is not a violation of the
          15         First Amendment.
          16              MR. LIEBERMAN:  When the Court begins to
          17         inquire into every aspect of the organization and
          18         administration of a church, and the relevance is so
          19         questionable that no one in this courtroom yet knows
          20         what it is, it does become an entanglement problem,
          21         your Honor.
          22              THE COURT:  Well, your objection is noted.
          23         It's preserved.
          24              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Thank you.
          25              THE COURT:  But I have not heard the first
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           1         First Amendment violation out of this man yet.
           2              MR. LIROT:  In short response, we are not
           3         looking for anything that deals with the religiosity
           4         of this church.
           5              THE COURT:  Exactly right.
           6              MR. LIROT:  The Church is entitled to whatever
           7         rights it holds dear and wants to embrace.
           8              We are talking about specific practices.  And
           9         obviously the allegations we've made, our concerns
          10         are not what has been alleged against Mr. Dandar.
          11         Our concerns and the reason we think this has
          12         relevance is --
          13              THE COURT:  Sit down, Counselor.  You'll get
          14         your turn.
          15              MR. LIROT:  Our concerns go directly to why we
          16         think Mr. Minton turned it around.  We're going
          17         towards what we think he described as the
          18         terminator, and we're going into great depth into
          19         what we think supports his statements on the stand
          20         in this hearing.
          21              We are not making an attack on the Church.
          22         We're not touching anything that we think deals with
          23         religiosity.  These are customs and practices that
          24         cause us concerns in this hearing and I think we can
          25         tie it in.
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           1              THE COURT:  All right.  Go ahead.
           2              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Just -- cases we briefed for
           3         your Honor don't talk about just religious belief.
           4         Religious belief, governance, administrative
           5         procedure, et cetera, of the Church.  There is a
           6         protection between church and state, judiciary and
           7         church, in terms of where inquiry and investigation
           8         of how churches operate.
           9              And I'm not saying that is an absolute wall.
          10         We all know that the wall has its -- its windows.
          11         And I'm not going to try and argue the pure
          12         Jeffersonian position of an absolute wall to your
          13         Honor.
          14              But there are limits.  And I submit to your
          15         Honor that this -- what the plaintiff is doing is
          16         going well beyond those limits.
          17              THE COURT:  All right.  Continue.
          18              MR. LIROT:  Very good.
          19    BY MR. LIROT:
          20         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
          21    marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 148 and ask you if you can
          22    identify that for the Court.
          23         A    Yes, I can identify this.  This is a check sheet
          24    for a noisy invest drill.
          25         Q    What is a noisy invest?
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           1         A    A noisy invest is an investigation done without
           2    the aid or benefit of stealth, to be quite honest.  It is
           3    something you would do and you wouldn't make it a secret if
           4    I was doing an investigation like this.  I -- you know, I
           5    would operate in the open and let the --
           6              THE COURT:  Believe it or not, we've heard this
           7         testimony.
           8         A    -- and let the individual know I was investigating
           9    them.
          10              THE COURT:  Which means I don't need to hear it
          11         again.
          12              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I'll move Exhibit 148 into
          13         evidence.
          14              THE COURT:  Subject to the same, if you can
          15         connect it up somehow.
          16    BY MR. LIROT:
          17         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
          18    identified as Plaintiff's Exhibit 149 and ask if you can
          19    identify this for the Court.
          20         A    Yes, I can.  This is a frequent flier club hat.
          21    This is an instruction list that was given to me --
          22    actually, I think faxed to our office.  Yes, this was faxed.
          23         Q    What is the purpose of this document?
          24         A    This is actually an instruction that was sent to
          25    us from Support Chief OSA US.
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           1              And it calls for instruction on how to create what
           2    is called a suitable guise in pretending that you are
           3    somebody else in order to obtain information on that
           4    individual's itinerary and frequent flier -- under the guise
           5    of asking for your frequent flier mile information.
           6              So I could pretend, let's say, I was you.  I would
           7    call the airlines with some of the information that I
           8    gleaned from other sources, pretend I'm you, ask to check my
           9    frequent flier miles, and then say, "By the way, let me go
          10    over my current itinerary."
          11              And the airline would feed me back what your
          12    current itinerary was as if I was you.  Then I would know
          13    where you were going and how you were going to get there.
          14         Q    So would OSA members, on occasion, be at the
          15    airport to greet people that they felt were targets of
          16    investigations?
          17         A    Mmm, from my personal experience, having done this
          18    type of information, having done this type of work, yes.
          19    People would be there from OSA either surveilling or
          20    watching whoever the subject was.
          21              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
          22         149 into evidence.
          23              THE COURT:  All right.  That does have
          24         relevance.  Mr. Minton testified to that occurring.
          25         So I suppose to the extent that it may be disputed,
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           1         that would have some relevance.
           2    BY MR. LIROT:
           3         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
           4    marked as Exhibit Number 150, ask if you can identify that
           5    for the Court.
           6         A    Yes, I can.  These are Office of Special Affairs
           7    network orders that were part of the hat pack that I -- that
           8    were shown to you or entered into evidence, I guess,
           9    earlier.  These are some of the issues which would be the
          10    policy letters that directly relate to the hat pack.
          11              These -- each one of them is of a different
          12    subject matter.  And these are only for distribution within
          13    the OSA network, and not for distribution to other staff,
          14    other Sea Org or public.
          15         Q    Let me turn your attention to the fourth page --
          16    fifth page, I'm sorry, the OSA Network Order 15,
          17    confidential black propaganda.
          18              THE COURT:  What page are you on?
          19              MR. LIROT:  I'm on the fifth page in, Judge.
          20         These aren't numbered.  These are different network
          21         orders.  And we felt we would file them as a
          22         composite exhibit.
          23              THE COURT:  All right.
          24              THE WITNESS:  These are also referenced in the
          25         check sheet.  If you look on the check sheet, you'll
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           1         see these orders are referenced to the check sheet.
           2              THE COURT:  Is this a page -- oh, black
           3         propaganda?
           4              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
           5              THE COURT:  Okay.
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    Now, these are the network orders that you are
           8    required to familiarize yourself with as part of that hat
           9    pack, is that correct?
          10         A    Yes.  That is correct.
          11              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to enter this
          12         into evidence as Exhibit Number 150.
          13              THE COURT:  It will be received, subject to
          14         being connected up.
          15    BY MR. LIROT:
          16         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what we marked
          17    as Exhibit Number 151 and ask if you can identify this
          18    document for the Court.
          19         A    Yes, I can.  This is on -- it is an HCO policy
          20    letter from PR Series 18 entitled "How to handle black
          21    propaganda."
          22         Q    Now, did you have to demonstrate some proficiency
          23    in the contents of this document in order to be in the
          24    investigations department?
          25         A    I had to read it, had to understand it, know what
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           1    it meant.  It required me to know exactly what was on here
           2    and be able to identify black propaganda, as such.
           3         Q    What is black propaganda?
           4         A    It's ideas that are used to destroy someone's
           5    reputation or their belief in something.
           6              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move this
           7         into evidence as Exhibit Number 151.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  The last one?  You know, we --
           9         we -- you know, we have the relevance objection.
          10              But, I mean, it is interesting when you read
          11         it, the black propaganda is propaganda against the
          12         Church of Scientology.
          13              THE COURT:  It will be received.
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what we've marked
          16    as Exhibit 152 and ask if you can identify this as -- this
          17    document for the Court.
          18         A    This is another HCO policy letter from PR Series 7
          19    called black PR.
          20         Q    In your participation as a member of the
          21    investigations division of OSA, are you familiar with black
          22    PR being used against people outside the Church?
          23         A    When you say people outside the Church, what do
          24    you mean?
          25              THE COURT:  Non-Scientologist.
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           1         A    Non-Scientologist?  Okay.  Yes.
           2    BY MR. LIROT:
           3         Q    All right.  Can you give us some examples of that,
           4    examples you participated in or you are aware people
           5    participated in?
           6         A    Well, information that was gotten on individuals
           7    was used -- how it works is this.  Intelligence gathers the
           8    information, anything that we can get on the individual
           9    through different sources.
          10              Earlier I talked about ODC.  There is also
          11    something called CDC, which is covert data collection.  And
          12    we used private investigators ourselves to gather covert
          13    data collection on individuals.
          14              For example, we had a private investigator by the
          15    name of Margie Delertson (phonetic) who worked for us out of
          16    Miami who was gathering covert data for us several different
          17    ways.  When -- for example, it was ordered one time we
          18    needed a D line on an individual.  A D line --
          19              THE COURT:  Why do I need to know all this?
          20         What was the question?
          21              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I think what we're doing is
          22         we're taking -- through this document, we're going
          23         from the overt data collection which we already
          24         talked about, this document, if you go down about a
          25         third of the way, it says "Intelligence, covert,"
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           1         and he made the transition into talking about some
           2         of the covert investigation that we think is the
           3         routine practice of OSA members that they use
           4         against people for whatever reasons they think are
           5         appropriate.
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, there you go, if that is
           7         what he's offering this for is routine practice,
           8         this man was there, I think the records will show,
           9         for less than two years, left in 1991.  How is it
          10         that he's going to say something that is routine for
          11         purposes of being admissible in 2002?
          12              THE COURT:  I don't know.  How many years does
          13         it take before it becomes routine if somebody is
          14         working there every day?
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, your Honor, it's -- under
          16         the rules, it is -- he's way too far removed to be
          17         offered for pattern of practice or routine.  He is.
          18         And I think we submitted a brief on this a long time
          19         ago.
          20              THE COURT:  I don't know -- I'm sorry, but I
          21         don't even recall that has come up until today.
          22         Maybe it has.  Maybe it came up in something else.
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  I think it did.  We submitted
          24         something on the rule --
          25              THE COURT:  You can understand why I might not
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           1         remember it.
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  That is why I can't remember it
           3         precisely.  But my recollection was it had to do
           4         with Rule -- you know -- 404 and 406.
           5              MR. MOXON:  I can tell you where it came up.
           6         It came up in the context -- it came up in the
           7         context when we were trying to disqualify
           8         Mr. Prince.  And there was a lot of case law in the
           9         motions we filed -- and I guess that was never
          10         really argued at that time -- but with respect to
          11         how old the information is upon which someone can
          12         base their information.
          13              And there was Florida authority and some cases
          14         indicating pattern of practice of several months is
          15         too old and it is not acceptable for pattern of
          16         practice information.  But certainly several years
          17         is too long.  And this gentleman is over ten
          18         years -- he has been gone over ten years, and
          19         actually only worked in the area he was talking of
          20         for several months.  Even though he said he was a
          21         Scientologist a few years, he only worked there a
          22         short time.  But ten years is -- is alleged pattern
          23         of practice information.
          24              THE COURT:  You mean before the Church -- I'm
          25         sorry, the plaintiffs could find someone they could
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           1         use, they would have to find somebody that just left
           2         Scientology and was willing to testify, therefore,
           3         two days ago?
           4              MR. MOXON:  No.  What I'm --
           5              THE COURT:  That was there for the last five
           6         years?  I mean, these are unusual circumstances,
           7         this case.  And if you want to talk about covert
           8         operations which would be, in essence, undercover
           9         operations, operations that you do not want other
          10         people to know about -- and I am not being critical
          11         of -- of the religion here -- what I'm suggesting is
          12         they can't pull somebody from the Church to come in
          13         and be a witness about matters that the Church
          14         doesn't want people to know if that is accurate.
          15              So it would seem they would have to ask
          16         somebody to talk about these things to establish a
          17         routine if that -- if that is what is appropriate,
          18         who has been removed from the Church.
          19              Now, the question is, is, you know, do they
          20         have to find somebody that has just been removed two
          21         days?  Or can they find somebody ten years old.
          22         Would that be an exception?  I don't know.  And I
          23         don't know that has been briefed.
          24              MR. MOXON:  Well --
          25              THE COURT:  I don't know two years is enough.
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           1         In other words, I don't know.  But it seems like
           2         this involves a lot of legal issues.  And so I think
           3         for the moment I'm going to let it in, and then I'm
           4         going to let you-all brief it.
           5              MR. MOXON:  The point to raise on this, of
           6         course, he was never at Flag.  He said he was in
           7         Miami.  He said he spent, I guess, a few weeks in
           8         Los Angeles, but he was in Miami working there.  He
           9         certainly never worked here.
          10              But ten years -- to answer your question --
          11              THE COURT:  This, of course, comes out of
          12         Sussex, which is out of where L. Ron Hubbard wrote
          13         his data.  It doesn't --
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  No, I don't -- it wasn't that
          15         policy that the objection had to do with.  It was
          16         the question where he began to be asked to explain
          17         what would happen in regard to covert.
          18              THE COURT:  Well, this is right on this piece
          19         of paper.  "Intelligence is covert.  PR does best
          20         when it begins and ends covertly.  Intelligence is
          21         best when it begins and ends covertly."
          22              I mean, I don't quite understand how that would
          23         be Church doctrine because, quite frankly, this is
          24         something that anybody would know.  I mean, I used
          25         to be a lawyer.  We had investigators.  These are
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           1         things that are known by any investigator, whether
           2         they work for a church or whether they work for a
           3         lawyer.
           4              You take offense at this, apparently.
           5              MR. LIEBERMAN:  No, I don't take offense at
           6         what you are saying at all.  But I take offense of
           7         the juxtaposition and attempted misinterpretation of
           8         this church policy with what he's talking about.
           9              This church policy is talking about how to
          10         defend against black propaganda, which it defines on
          11         the last page as an evil.  So what he's done is he
          12         introduced a policy, then he talked about -- and
          13         he's attempting to talk about -- what will be
          14         characterized as improper activities and pretend
          15         that is an interpretation of this policy.  And that
          16         is both improper and an evidentiary matter, and also
          17         a violation of the First Amendment --
          18              THE COURT:  What he's going to say is that
          19         black PR was done on Mr. Minton is what he's going
          20         to say.
          21              MR. LIEBERMAN:  But this policy -- he made --
          22         if he wants to testify that he has evidence that
          23         something called negative propaganda was used
          24         against Mr. Minton, let him testify as to that.
          25              But to -- but to try to juxtapose this policy,
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           1         which is an anti-black PR policy, which is calling
           2         it an evil, and the purpose of which is how the
           3         Church can avoid the kind of black propaganda that,
           4         in effect, is the subject of this testimony, except
           5         in the public relations area, that is exactly what
           6         I'm talking about, that that is a misuse of policy.
           7         And the misinterpretation of it in a courtroom --
           8              THE COURT:  This man is going to talk about, as
           9         I recall, what covert intelligence was.  And he
          10         worked for the Church.  And he's going to tell us
          11         what he did.  And we're going to listen.
          12              And I don't care whether it is part of policy
          13         or whether it isn't part of policy.  We're going to
          14         listen because Mr. Lirot is going to try to connect
          15         this up to what he believes occurred to Mr. Minton.
          16         That is what this is about.  So we're going to
          17         listen.
          18              MR. LIROT:  Judge, if I may, I have got some
          19         authority here.  This exact same argument has been
          20         used repeatedly by the Church and it has been
          21         rejected repeatedly, and it is a red herring.  So I
          22         would like to just get this dispensed with briefly.
          23              This has been cited -- Judge, this is the case
          24         of Allard versus the Church of Scientology.  It was
          25         Shepardized this morning.  It is still good law,
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           1         cited as recently as this year.
           2              If you turn to Page 4, down in the lower --
           3              THE COURT:  I tell you what let's do.  I know
           4         it is ten -- five minutes before afternoon break
           5         time.  Rather than you-all both trying to tell me
           6         what this case says and all that sort of stuff, I'll
           7         take a break and I'll try to read it during the
           8         break and I'll be more able to listen to your
           9         arguments.
          10              MR. DANDAR:  It involves a Flag banking
          11         officer.
          12              THE COURT:  Well, okay.  Let me read it.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could you give
          14         Mr. Oliver, for the first time, the instruction?
          15              THE COURT:  Yes.  Mr. Oliver, you need to
          16         understand that when you are on the witness stand --
          17         please -- please be quiet -- when you are on the
          18         witness stand, you are not permitted to speak not
          19         only with anybody else but -- about the case and
          20         what is going on, you are not permitted to talk to
          21         anybody, including lawyers, about your testimony.
          22         Okay?
          23              In other words, up until now you had every
          24         right to talk to Mr. Lirot, you had every right to
          25         talk to Mr. Dandar, you had every right to talk to
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           1         these other lawyers.  But now, unless I give you
           2         permission to, you can't talk to these lawyers about
           3         your testimony.  Talk to them about the time of
           4         day --
           5              THE WITNESS:  What we had for lunch.
           6              THE COURT:  That sort of stuff.  Right.
           7      (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:50 to 3:15 p.m.)
           8             _______________________________________
           9              THE COURT:  You all go ahead and explain this
          10         case to me.
          11              MR. LIROT:  All right.  Well, Judge,
          12         essentially what happened was a member of the Church
          13         left on, shall we say, less than positive terms.
          14              I'm trying to find my copy of it as I prattle
          15         on here.  Here we go.
          16              And apparently there was an allegation made
          17         that he had stolen some Swiss francs from the
          18         Church's safe.  As time went on, the district
          19         attorney decided that he would dismiss the case
          20         and -- it went to trial and quite a bit came up.
          21         But the issue that we had brought up is actually on
          22         Page 4.  They talked a lot about the evidence.
          23         But --
          24              THE COURT:  What actually went to trial?  A
          25         civil trial?
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           1              MR. LIROT:  There was a trial basically on
           2         whether or not -- there was -- I think a procedural
           3         posture was it was a malicious prosecution, that the
           4         Church had no reasonable basis to report that this
           5         gentleman had stolen anything.
           6              THE COURT:  Okay.
           7              MR. LIROT:  He took the Church to court.  And
           8         the whole issue of fair game and other aspects of
           9         what was alleged to be policies and beliefs of the
          10         Church came up.
          11              And on Page 4, Judge, they talk about that
          12         particular issue, and they break it down into the
          13         different assignments of error.
          14              But Number 2 in the lower left-hand column of
          15         Page 4, it specifically says:  "The procedure and
          16         verdict below does not constitute a violation of
          17         appellant's First Amendment free exercise of
          18         religion."
          19              Judge, I'll quote from the case, it is very
          20         short.  It is just this one page.  It said:
          21         "Appellant contends that various references to
          22         practices of the Church of Scientology were not
          23         supported by the evidence, were not legally relevant
          24         and were unduly prejudicial.  The claim is made it
          25         became one of determining the validity of a religion
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           1         rather than the commission of a tort.  The
           2         references to which appellant now objects were to
           3         such practices as E-meters, tin cans used as
           4         E-meters, the creation of religious doctrine to
           5         purportedly get dissidents and insinuations the
           6         Church of Scientology was a great money-making
           7         business, rather than a religion."
           8              Obviously we are not making those arguments.
           9              "The principal issue in this trial was one of
          10         credibility.  If one believed the defendant's
          11         witnesses, then there was, indeed, conversion by
          12         respondent.  However, the opposite result, that
          13         reached by the jury, would materially -- would
          14         naturally follow --" I'm sorry -- "if one believed
          15         the evidence introduced by respondent.  Appellant
          16         repeatedly argues that the introduction of the
          17         policy statements by the Church --" that is what
          18         we've done "-- the policy statements of the Church
          19         were prejudicial error.  However, these policy
          20         statements went directly to the issue of
          21         credibility.  Scientology -- Scientologists were
          22         allowed to trick, sue, lie to or destroy enemies.
          23              "If, as he claimed, respondent was considered
          24         to be an enemy, that policy was, indeed, relevant to
          25         the issues of the case.  That evidence well supports
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           1         the jury's implied conclusion that respondent had
           2         not taken the property of the Church, that he had
           3         merely attempted to leave the Church with the
           4         documents for the Internal Revenue Service and that
           5         those witnesses that were Scientologists or had been
           6         Scientologists were following the policy of the
           7         Church and lying to, suing and attempting to destroy
           8         respondent.
           9              "Evidence of such policy statements were
          10         damaging to appellant but they were entirely
          11         relevant.  They were not prejudicial.  A party whose
          12         reprehensible acts are the cause of harm to another
          13         and the reason for the lawsuit by another cannot be
          14         heard to complain that its conduct is so bad that it
          15         should not be disclosed.  The relevance of
          16         appellant's conduct far outweighs any claim to
          17         prejudice."
          18              Then they have a footnote.
          19              And below that it says, "We find introduction
          20         of the --"
          21              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Read the footnote, Mr. Lirot.
          22              MR. LIROT:  All right.  "The trial court gave
          23         appellant almost the entire trial within which to
          24         produce evidence that the fair game policy had been
          25         repealed.  Appellant failed to do so and the trial
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           1         court thereafter permitted the admission of Exhibit
           2         1 into evidence."
           3              Judge, we have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt
           4         the use of the term "fair game" has been cancelled,
           5         but the policies and the ways that the Church deals
           6         with suppressive persons is alive and well and has
           7         been routine practice since 1969, 1991, and through
           8         2002, with Mr. Minton's experience.
           9              So fair game may not be the label, but it's the
          10         same soap that is new and improved in the package.
          11              We don't think we're making any allegations
          12         that come within anywhere of a First Amendment
          13         complaint.  And our policies -- I don't know what
          14         religious practice protects the -- the posing of
          15         someone's frequent flier mile holder to get
          16         information.
          17              These are not religious practices, Judge.
          18         These may be policies and they are supported by
          19         these documents.  But we are not tampering with
          20         religious practices here; we are looking
          21         specifically at alleged wrongdoing and an
          22         explanation to support our theory of the case as to
          23         why Mr. Minton took the course of conduct he did.
          24              THE COURT:  You're talking about your theory of
          25         this hearing?
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           1              MR. LIROT:  That is correct.
           2              THE COURT:  Not the theory of the case, the
           3         case being wrongful death.
           4              MR. LIROT:  You have corrected me, yes.
           5         Specifically this hearing.  And I think this is
           6         ancillary to the case.
           7              THE COURT:  All right.
           8              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Thank you, Judge.
           9              Several points with respect to this.
          10              First of all, the footnote, of course, makes it
          11         clear that had the evidence -- the policy was not
          12         the policy of the Church -- been shown, that it may
          13         well have been improper to introduce it.
          14              And, of course, if the Court will recall, not
          15         only have we introduced the policies saying repeal
          16         fair game, but we also introduced Exhibit --
          17         Defendant's Exhibit 209, the policy letter of
          18         July 22, 1980, cancellation of fair game, puts that
          19         into perspective and explains it.
          20              Second, the Court, in Allard -- this case was
          21         decided in 1976.  And it finds, in the paragraph
          22         that begins on the second column of Page 4, there it
          23         was proper to introduce this because it went
          24         directly to the issue of credibility, i.e., alleging
          25         church policies with regard to the issue of
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           1         credibility.
           2              After this decision, the federal rules of
           3         evidence were promulgated and adopted in most
           4         states, including in Florida.
           5              Federal Rule of Evidence 610, which is adopted
           6         in Florida as Florida Rule of Evidence 611, states:
           7         "Evidence of the beliefs or opinions of a witness on
           8         matters of religion is inadmissible to show the
           9         witness's credibility is impaired or enhanced
          10         thereby."
          11              And I have a case -- I only have one copy of it
          12         because I didn't think it would come up.  It is from
          13         the Supreme Court of Ohio in 1994.  And it is based
          14         on Ohio Rule of Evidence 610, which is the same as
          15         Federal Rule of Evidence 610 and Florida Rule of
          16         Evidence 611.
          17              In that case -- I'm sorry, I'm reading but --
          18              THE COURT:  That is all right.
          19              MR. LIEBERMAN:  -- but the name of the case --
          20         I'll hand it up to your Honor.  I only have one
          21         copy.
          22              THE COURT:  Okay.
          23              MR. LIEBERMAN:  -- is Redman versus Watchtower,
          24         630 Northeast Second, 676, Ohio, 1994.
          25              The case involved a claim of undue influence by
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           1         the family of a deceased relative contesting a will
           2         leaving property to the Jehovah's Witnesses Church.
           3         And they were alleging that the deceased was subject
           4         to undue influence in leaving his or her money to
           5         the Church.
           6              And they called an expert witness, an
           7         ex-Jehovah's Witness, who wrote a book critical
           8         about the religion and who testified the church had
           9         policy to encourage members to perjure themselves in
          10         order to protect the church and its followers.
          11         Sound familiar?
          12              This is what the Ohio Supreme Court had to say
          13         about that.  "Evidence Rule 610 is based on notions
          14         of relevancy and unfair prejudice and a goal of
          15         avoiding inquiry into areas that bear little nexus
          16         to the ultimate issue.  When, as here, the witness
          17         belongs to a minority sect, and which may or may not
          18         be viewed with disdain or misunderstanding, the risk
          19         of unfair prejudice is high.
          20              "Furthermore, common experience suggests that
          21         affiliation with any particular religious belief is
          22         not necessarily indicative of a predisposition to
          23         testify honestly.  Here plaintiff is attempting to
          24         show that the witness's religious beliefs were
          25         paramount to the oath.  This represents a use of
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           1         religious beliefs expressly prohibited by Evidence
           2         Rule 610."
           3              And then it cites -- it says the courts of Ohio
           4         haven't had many cases on this.  But it cites
           5         identical federal counterparts and various cases in
           6         the federal courts, just reading the next paragraph,
           7         in Mallick (phonetic) -- I'll omit the citation -- a
           8         Second Circuit, '93, the Court found questions
           9         addressed to the witness's affiliation with specific
          10         institutions and a religious composition of his
          11         accounting clientele to violate 610.  The Court saw
          12         this as an attempt to show that the witness's
          13         character for truthfulness was affected by religious
          14         beliefs shared by the plaintiffs.
          15              In another recent decision from the Second
          16         Circuit the Court held the statement, "Jews aren't
          17         supposed to turn other Jews over," end quote, was a
          18         clear violation of Rule 610.  And then it cites a
          19         number of other cases.
          20              So that is the law in Florida, your Honor.
          21         This may have been the law in California in 1976.  I
          22         think California has since adopted 610 and it
          23         probably isn't the law in California anymore,
          24         either.
          25              But also in -- in Allard, as I pointed out,
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           1         there was no -- the Court went out of its way to
           2         point out -- for some reason I wasn't around at that
           3         time -- they didn't introduce the evidence that fair
           4         game was not the policy or no longer the policy of
           5         the Church and had been mischaracterized.
           6              Moreover --
           7              THE COURT:  When was that fair game policy
           8         cancelled?
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  1968.  Then there was that --
          10              MR. LIEBERMAN:  But this clarification I'm
          11         referring to was 1980.  It is Defendant's Number
          12         209.  And I'll -- I'll hand it up to your Honor,
          13         along with the -- with this Ohio case.
          14              But I also take my text, if you'll pardon me,
          15         to the extent that Allard holds -- and I don't think
          16         it holds -- but to the extent that Allard holds that
          17         it is permissible under the First Amendment for the
          18         Court or the jury or a finder of fact to look at
          19         church policies and decide what they mean, I take my
          20         text more from the Supreme Court of the United
          21         States in Thomas versus Review Board, 450 U.S. 707 -
          22         716, 1981.  "Courts are not arbiters of scriptural
          23         interpretation."
          24              And from Presbyterian Church in the Supreme
          25         Court of the United States, 393 U.S. 440, "The First
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           1         Amendment forbids civil courts from determining
           2         matters that the core of religion, the
           3         interpretation of particular church doctrines and
           4         the importance of those doctrines to their religion.
           5         Instead, says the Court, in Serbian Orthodox
           6         Diocese, 426 U.S. 696, 1976, about the same time as
           7         Allard was decided, "The Courts must defer to the
           8         interpretation of religion doctrine made by the
           9         religions."
          10              That is the law as it applies to the Supreme
          11         Court of the United States and in Florida, your
          12         Honor.  And I wasn't addressing, in terms of policy,
          13         the frequent flier thing.  I was addressing their
          14         introduction and mischaracterization through this
          15         witness of this black PR policy, which is a policy
          16         of the Church of Scientology.  And means the exact
          17         opposite of what they are trying to suggest to this
          18         Court and trying to have this Court interpret it as.
          19              And that is the problem when you start
          20         introducing Church policies and throwing them on the
          21         record and somehow the Court is supposed to know
          22         what they mean.
          23              The only entity which can interpret and
          24         construe a Church policy is the Church, your Honor.
          25         Otherwise, the Court gets into the constitutional
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           1         thicket in which it is forced somehow to either
           2         agree with the Church or disagree with the Church.
           3         And how can a Court disagree with a church as to
           4         what a church policy means?
           5              THE COURT:  Then I guess what you'll have to do
           6         is bring somebody in to interpret these documents
           7         for us, because if they want to introduce the
           8         policy, I guess they can if they think it has some
           9         bearing --
          10              MR. LIEBERMAN:  No, the point is your Honor,
          11         they can't.
          12              THE COURT:  Well, they can.  I mean, there is
          13         nothing in that case you have just read that said
          14         there is anything inadmissible about Church policy.
          15         What it says is the person to interpret it is the
          16         Church itself.
          17              MR. DANDAR:  Judge, we have Florida cases which
          18         contradict what he just told you.
          19              THE COURT:  I think what we'll have to do here
          20         is this.  As we have been doing all along, there has
          21         been a lot of policy coming in -- quite frankly, I'm
          22         not sure on a lot of these issues this isn't going
          23         to be a matter of credibility between Mr. Dandar and
          24         Mr. Minton and whether or not the plaintiff, who has
          25         the burden of proof, can prove their case.
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           1              I mean, to me, this may be a great deal more
           2         simple, at least in part, than the 30 days of
           3         hearings we have had.  So, consequently, I may never
           4         look or cite or talk about a Church policy at all.
           5              But, in any event, I think for now the best
           6         thing to do is to let you-all fully brief that.  We
           7         don't have a jury here.  We're not going to endanger
           8         anything here by introducing this stuff.  I think
           9         all this -- I have not heard him interpret this.  I
          10         think what he was going to tell us is what he did
          11         when he did covert intelligence for the Church.
          12         That isn't policy.  That is basically what he did.
          13         Is that it?
          14              MR. LIROT:  That is it.
          15              THE COURT:  So --
          16              MR. LIEBERMAN:  That wasn't my objection,
          17         though, your Honor.  My objection was the -- at the
          18         same time as he's testifying about that, they
          19         introduce this policy, the black PR.  And the clear
          20         suggestion -- what they are clearly trying to
          21         show -- is that -- what he's about to testify to is
          22         what he says happened was pursuant to this policy
          23         when this policy says black PR is an evil that must
          24         be countered.  And that is what the policy says.
          25              THE COURT:  Well, is what you are telling me is
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           1         if I want to know before I make a decision what this
           2         black PR means, that Mr. Reiss will come in and tell
           3         us?
           4              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Well --
           5              THE COURT:  Subject, of course, to
           6         cross-examination?
           7              MR. LIEBERMAN:  The issue, your Honor, really
           8         should be -- the policy should not be introduced by
           9         opposing party with an attempt to try to put a
          10         different interpretation on it.  If they want to
          11         talk about what happened, what they claim happened,
          12         the facts of what happened, what happened with
          13         Mr. Minton, let them do it.
          14              But for somebody to come in -- Mr. Oliver, who
          15         was in a low level --
          16              THE COURT:  I understand that, Counsel.  I
          17         heard your argument.
          18              My question is if I want to know what this
          19         means -- if I want to know what this policy means,
          20         it came from Hubbard Communication Office from
          21         Sussex, which is obviously a HCO policy letter --
          22         it's a policy of the Church -- and I want to know
          23         what it means, then if what you are suggesting is
          24         that I'm bound to rely on what the Church says it
          25         means, then somebody from the Church will have to
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           1         come tell me what that is.
           2              So I would suspect if there is anything I want
           3         to know the answer to, then you'll provide me --
           4              MR. LIEBERMAN:  I will provide you with
           5         anything you want to know the answer to.
           6              THE COURT:  All right.  Well, for now I may not
           7         need some of this stuff and probably don't.
           8              MR. LIEBERMAN:  And we did provide you with
           9         Mr. Reiss's explanation --
          10              THE COURT:  But his affidavit -- and it was
          11         very good and I have read it twice now because --
          12              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
          13              THE COURT:  -- because I forgot the first time
          14         I read it, it was in conjunction with the criminal
          15         case, but it really had more to do with the
          16         introspection rundown and sort of a general what is
          17         the Church of Scientology, what are the --
          18              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Precisely.
          19              THE COURT:  So he didn't tell us anything about
          20         what we're talking about in this hearing.
          21              MR. LIEBERMAN:  No, because we didn't think it
          22         was relevant, your Honor.
          23              THE COURT:  It may not be.
          24              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, this is something
          25         you really need -- that, upon viewing the policy,
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           1         you think what we're telling you it means is not
           2         correct and you want a definitive Church
           3         interpretation, we will provide that to you.
           4              THE COURT:  All right.  But for now, I don't
           5         want him interpreting policy.  What I understand
           6         he's here for, so we don't get into how long he has
           7         been in the Church, just what he did as an OSA
           8         officer, investigator.
           9              MR. LIROT:  Precisely.
          10              THE COURT:  And if he thinks there are any
          11         policies that pertain to what he did, and he was
          12         told this is the policy, well, then we can introduce
          13         it.  But I don't want him interpreting it.  Okay?
          14              MR. LIROT:  Very good, your Honor.
          15              THE COURT:  All right.
          16              MR. LIROT:  Judge, if I could maybe back up.
          17         We were focusing on Exhibit 152.
          18              I would like to hand up -- I have a copy for
          19         the Court -- what we've marked, to keep the rest of
          20         them in order, as Exhibit 151A.  I'll give one to
          21         the clerk.  Judge, I'll hand one up to the Court.
          22    BY MR. LIROT:
          23         Q    Mr. Oliver, can you tell us what this document is?
          24         A    These are my notes -- this is a page of my notes
          25    that I kept when I was an invest officer in Miami in 1991.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me, your Honor, this does
           2         alter the category, if he's working on legal cases
           3         and he's stolen documents from legal cases and taken
           4         it with him and now, through this ploy from a
           5         subpoena, now turning them over here, I mean, that
           6         is not proper.  It's completely -- I don't know what
           7         this means.  I have no idea.  I have never seen it
           8         before.
           9              But I know if somebody was working in my office
          10         and I have a legal file and they are my associate,
          11         they can't just, when they leave my office, copy the
          12         legal file, take it with them, and then Mr. Lirot
          13         gives them a subpoena and all of a sudden they can
          14         introduce it into the record.  I mean --
          15              THE COURT:  Well, that is my question.  Are you
          16         suggesting that these are stolen documents, the
          17         policies --
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  No.  This one right here he just
          19         handed you up, it is just some notes, he said, when
          20         he was a legal officer.  It is his notes.
          21              THE COURT:  I don't have any idea.  If it is
          22         his notes, then it would seem it would be
          23         admissible, not a Church document.  They are not a
          24         stolen document.
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  No, that is absolutely not
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           1         correct.  He's working -- hypothetically, whatever
           2         his position, it's a low position, he's getting
           3         instructions from somebody working with regard to a
           4         legal case.  All right?  That person asks him to do
           5         A, B, C and D and he makes some notes and it goes in
           6         some legal file.
           7              Well, when he decides to leave the Church, he
           8         just can't take the legal file with him, just as my
           9         associate can't take the legal file.
          10              THE COURT:  I see what you are saying.  I don't
          11         know what it is.  I can't tell.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  He just said, it is his notes.
          13              THE COURT:  It might be his notes he made when
          14         he was --
          15              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          16              THE COURT:  -- before he came into court today.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  No, it has "October 12, 1991" on
          18         it.
          19              THE COURT:  What is this?
          20              THE WITNESS:  Your Honor, if I may.  First off,
          21         I personally resent being accused of stealing
          22         anything because I never stole anything.  So
          23         anything that I have in my possession was mine.
          24              THE COURT:  Okay.
          25              THE WITNESS:  Anything I have was given to me
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           1         and it was told it was mine.
           2              THE COURT:  Tell me what this document is.
           3              THE WITNESS:  These are notes --
           4              THE COURT:  There has been lots of allegations
           5         thrown around this courtroom that are far, far more
           6         serious than that.  So don't take offense.
           7              THE WITNESS:  This is something that I wrote.
           8         This is based on a phone call that I received.
           9              This is a -- the abbreviation at the top where
          10         it says "BP," that stands for battle plan.  And
          11         battle plan is something that you have every day.
          12         You have a battle plan of the things you are
          13         supposed to do that are accomplished that day.  You
          14         set your targets what you are to do, so it is like a
          15         "to do" list almost.  This is the battle plan for 12
          16         October, '91.
          17              I notated on here, "Call Margie."  Margie is
          18         Margie Delertson.  She's a retired detective from
          19         the North Miami Beach Police Department who worked
          20         for the Office of Special Affairs.  Specifically,
          21         she worked under the direction of Tracy Pase, the
          22         DSA invest officer from the Miami org who was my
          23         senior.
          24              So as I was being trained, Margie was going to
          25         be the first PI that I was going to learn how to
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           1         run, because the Office of Special Affairs runs the
           2         PIs.  We're the ones that actually execute, prepare
           3         them and give them assignments for the duties a
           4         private investigator does for the investigations
           5         department.  There are some things that I did.
           6         There are some things the PI did.
           7              In this particular case, I was asked to get a D
           8         line on an individual.
           9              THE COURT:  What is a D line?
          10              THE WITNESS:  A D line is OSA terminology for
          11         obtaining information from an individual's garbage.
          12         So we would have a private investigator go out after
          13         hours and go through someone's garbage to obtain any
          14         information in their garbage can and go through it
          15         to find anything on that individual on that subject.
          16              There were two terms like this that were
          17         specifically -- I was specifically instructed by my
          18         senior, Tracy Pase, a D line and C line.
          19              THE COURT:  Now, my question to you, Mr. Lirot,
          20         is what is the relevance of these notes?
          21              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I wanted to show what some
          22         of the covert practices were, not as part of Church
          23         policy, but part of what he participated in as part
          24         of the investigative division of OSA, and whether or
          25         not that was standard practice as far as the people
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           1         he worked with at the time that he worked there.
           2              And I'm going to tie those in to the documents
           3         that he was provided as part of his training.  We're
           4         going to have him testify that is basically what
           5         they have taught him to do.  These are the -- the
           6         covert practices utilized by the Church.
           7              I don't know what religious tenet allows
           8         someone to take someone else's garbage.
           9              I understand the objection, but I'm concerned
          10         and I think if we can show the standard practice
          11         here of these covert operations, I think we have
          12         already tied in the issue as far as Mr. Minton being
          13         met at the airport every time.
          14              Mr. Oliver will testify through these documents
          15         and through his own experience that this is how it
          16         happens.  These are the issues that go on.  He's not
          17         the only person that does this.  And that this is
          18         standard operating procedure.
          19              THE COURT:  Let me ask you now -- now, was this
          20         connected to an individual case?
          21              MR. LIROT:  I don't know.  So I would have to
          22         ask Mr. Oliver.  And I'm not asking for any
          23         confidential information.  And if it dealt with the
          24         litigation, and it is his note, obviously I don't
          25         know that the document itself divulges any kind of
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           1         confidential information or work product.  I want to
           2         introduce it simply for the D search.
           3              THE COURT:  Okay.  And you are saying this is
           4         stolen?
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.  He had no authorization to
           6         take his notes, just as my associate doesn't have
           7         any authorization to take his notes.
           8              I assume, when it says "Dr. G" at the bottom,
           9         that is Dr. Geertz, which is the Fishman case which
          10         you heard something about.
          11              So he can't just walk in, be in a place --
          12         remember, this is a man that you're going to see
          13         from the Lisa McPherson Trust who has a deep bias
          14         against the Church now, eleven years later, and has
          15         worked actively with all these people that are in
          16         the courtroom.  So that is what you're going to see.
          17              But you can't just walk out, having worked on a
          18         case -- you know, having worked on a case, you can't
          19         just walk out with a file and say, "They are my
          20         notes because I kept them."
          21              My associate makes notes all of the time.  I
          22         use investigators.  You saw a few minutes ago
          23         Mr. Dandar's investigator was here, Mr. Emmons.  You
          24         know, when you were in private practice, you used
          25         investigators, as well.
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           1              There has to be some relationship between what
           2         we're doing here and -- and what Mr. Oliver is
           3         trying to -- to paint.  If he can say, "I had some
           4         experience with Mr. Minton and Mr. Prince and --"
           5              THE COURT:  I think that he can talk about what
           6         he did, as I said.  You will argue the legal --
           7         whether or not he can establish a practice and
           8         whether or not he can establish something that then
           9         can be used in this case.  I doubt if he had
          10         anything to do with Mr. Minton, so --
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  No, he had something to do with
          12         Mr. Minton.  He was at LMT.  He was picketing with
          13         Mr. Minton all over the place.
          14              THE COURT:  I'm talking about Mr. Minton and
          15         any activity, any covert/overt activity that may or
          16         may not have happened with Mr. Minton.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  He left the Church in 1991.
          18              THE COURT:  Right.  So we can assume he
          19         doesn't.  So, therefore, I assume this testimony is
          20         going to try to establish a pattern.  You-all may
          21         disagree with the law on that.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
          23              THE COURT:  Now, if this came from a case, I
          24         agree with counsel, I don't think it is admissible,
          25         I think it probably would be related to a file.
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           1         Whether we call it a religious practice or
           2         non-religious practice, it was connected to a file,
           3         and, therefore --
           4              MR. LIROT:  In deference to your concerns and
           5         Mr. Weinberg's concerns, I think it served its
           6         purpose.  I will withdraw it.
           7              THE COURT:  Okay.  I'll give it back.  I don't
           8         have any question, problem, with you asking him
           9         whether he went through garbage cans as part of
          10         his --
          11              MR. DANDAR:  Can we establish, number one, it
          12         came from a lawyer and, number two, it had something
          13         to do with litigation?  I mean, Mr. Weinberg says it
          14         does but --
          15              THE COURT:  I don't know whether it came from
          16         litigation or not.  If it was something that he did
          17         as an employee of the Church and had to do with an
          18         individual case, I kind of agree.  I don't think he
          19         just gets to introduce it.  I mean, it would be the
          20         Church's property.
          21              MR. DANDAR:  Well, if it has to do with
          22         litigation.
          23              THE COURT:  Well, it has a name on there.  And
          24         I'm trying not to get into the name because that
          25         would be part of the -- I guess this would be
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           1         confidential.
           2              MR. DANDAR:  Well, Mr. Weinberg just said a
           3         name, and maybe the witness is the only one
           4         competent enough to tell us if that is true.
           5              THE COURT:  I don't want anything more about
           6         that piece of paper right now.  I'm not interested
           7         in hearing about it.  I think it may well be
           8         something confidential that belongs -- or belonged
           9         within the confines of the Church's confidence and,
          10         therefore, we should not be talking about it here.
          11              I do not care if he talks about what he did as
          12         a matter of practice while he was an investigator
          13         with the Church of Scientology.  Whether he can
          14         establish a practice that becomes admissible,
          15         therefore, and is of some evidentiary value in this
          16         case, that is a legal argument which we'll make.
          17              MR. DANDAR:  Keep in mind that Mr. Weinberg
          18         introduced into evidence my confidential documents
          19         to Stacy Brooks, over my objection.  And when he
          20         does that, I agree with him, that is highly
          21         improper.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, excuse me, but --
          23              THE COURT:  I don't need --
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  Anyway, as far as -- as far as
          25         your last statement, your Honor, it would not be
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           1         proper for Mr. Oliver to speak about -- in any
           2         detail about what he did with regard to a case to a
           3         particular --
           4              THE COURT:  I disagree with you, Counselor.
           5         You may state that without telling us what case.
           6         When he was with the Church and as an investigator,
           7         he can tell us the types of things that he did.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  No, that is different.  But
           9         what -- what you said, you probably didn't mean it,
          10         is that he can discuss what he did on a particular
          11         case.
          12              THE COURT:  Only if it is this case.  I said --
          13         I thought I made it real clear.  We are going to see
          14         if he can establish a pattern.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
          16              MR. LIROT:  Thank you, Judge.
          17              THE COURT:  And whether or not a pattern is
          18         relevant that could be used as evidence in this
          19         case.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
          21              THE COURT:  I don't know, I'll let you-all
          22         argue that legally later.
          23              MR. LIROT:  Thank you, Judge.
          24    BY MR. LIROT:
          25         Q    What is a D line?  Picking up somebody's garbage?
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           1    What is the full sequence of a D line act?
           2         A    The person -- the private investigator's contact
           3    in this case -- in this case it would have been Margie
           4    Delertson -- and she would have been told who the subject
           5    was, the address, and how many times that it needed to be
           6    done.
           7              THE COURT:  She would have been told to go get
           8         a certain person's garbage and go through it.  And
           9         what would she be looking for?
          10              THE WITNESS:  Anything and everything that
          11         could be of intelligence value to the Office of
          12         Special Affairs.  It could be anything.  It could be
          13         a receipt that she bought or rented a videotape,
          14         maybe an adult video.  Anything that they could
          15         find.  Anything of value from an intelligence
          16         standpoint.
          17              THE COURT:  And she would be told how many
          18         times she was to go through somebody's garbage?
          19              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          20              THE COURT:  And she would be given the name of
          21         that person?  Okay.
          22              THE WITNESS:  And paid for that, as well.
          23              THE COURT:  And she would be a special
          24         investigator?  Private investigator?
          25              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  We use private
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           1         investigators for certain things.  Other things,
           2         they sent me out to do.
           3              THE COURT:  Okay.
           4    BY MR. LIROT:
           5         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to draw your attention back to
           6    Exhibit Number 152, PR Series 7 black PR.  And on the back
           7    of the first page, in the middle -- a little above the
           8    middle, it has the title "Black Propaganda."
           9              THE COURT:  Are you talking about 152?
          10              MR. LIROT:  152.  It is two pages but it is a
          11         two-sided copy.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    On the back of the first page, three paragraphs
          14    up, it says:  "The dead agent caper was used to disprove --"
          15    what is a dead agent caper?
          16              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, the witness is
          17         interpreting the policy.
          18              THE COURT:  That is in quotes.  I assume,
          19         therefore -- it is in quotes and, therefore, it is
          20         not a policy, it is something a -- if it is
          21         something in quotes, it is -- somebody should be
          22         able to tell us what it is.  Overruled.
          23         A    A dead agent caper is something that you are
          24    tasked to do, to go out and dead agent an individual by --
          25    by "dead agent" means to neutralize the individual in some
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           1    way.  I participated in DA capers.
           2    BY MR. LIROT:
           3         Q    What would that entail?
           4         A    I was sent out, for example, to a library in south
           5    Dade in 1990 to do a DA caper on a man named Sandy --
           6              THE COURT:  We don't want to hear specifics.
           7              THE WITNESS:  Excuse me?
           8              THE COURT:  I don't want to hear specifics.
           9         Give us an example of what a dead agent caper is.
          10         A    I was sent out to --
          11              THE COURT:  Well, you are obviously having
          12         trouble with this.
          13              THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.
          14              THE COURT:  I don't want to know "I was sent
          15         out in south Miami to do such and such with
          16         Mr. So-and-so."
          17              A dead agent caper would be like going to a
          18         library and doing --
          19         A    I got it.  Like going to someplace where a critic
          20    of Scientology may be speaking and either disrupting the
          21    meeting in some way, or handing out literature that would
          22    be -- put the person speaking in some sort of disrepute or
          23    to attack the person in some other way based on what they
          24    are saying and trying to neutralize that person in front of
          25    whatever audience they had getting any attention for what
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           1    this person was saying that was antagonistic or against
           2    Scientology.  That would be a DA caper.
           3    BY MR. LIROT:
           4         Q    Would it --
           5              MR. LIEBERMAN:  That is not what the policy
           6         says it is.  I just want to point that out.
           7              MR. DANDAR:  Let them do that on
           8         cross-examination.  We'll be here three days.
           9              MR. LIEBERMAN:  But it is a violation --
          10              THE COURT:  He's not talking about policy.
          11         That should make you happy.
          12              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Okay.
          13    BY MR. LIROT:
          14         Q    Would the passing out of fliers and things like
          15    that be part of a DA caper?
          16         A    Yes, it would.  If the fliers had something
          17    negative to say about the person they were trying to DA,
          18    yes.
          19         Q    So something talking about Mr. Minton saying that
          20    he was a thief and took money from Nigeria, would that be
          21    part of a DA caper?
          22         A    Sure.
          23              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
          24         Number 152 into evidence.
          25              THE COURT:  Again, PR is what?
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           1              THE WITNESS:  "Public relations."
           2              THE COURT:  Public relations is overt.
           3         Intelligence is covert.  Public relations in the
           4         standard sense means what?  I mean, what, to you as
           5         an intelligence -- or an as investigator in the
           6         Church of Scientology, what does public relations
           7         mean?
           8              THE WITNESS:  Public relations is the -- the
           9         information that is put out to the public that puts
          10         the organization in a good light.
          11              For example, if certain documents -- a document
          12         or flier or something is created that talks about
          13         maybe good things that the organization did, that
          14         would be handed out to, let's say, opinion leaders.
          15              THE COURT:  Okay.
          16              THE WITNESS:  That would be putting out good
          17         PR.
          18              THE COURT:  Let me ask you a different
          19         question.  Investigate noisily.
          20              THE WITNESS:  A noisy investigation.
          21              THE COURT:  A noisy investigation.  Forget
          22         about dead agent capers.  Investigate noisily, would
          23         that also include handing out fliers about a person
          24         which might not have complimentary matters on it?
          25              THE WITNESS:  Yes, it would.  It could be going
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           1         to somebody's -- knocking on some landlord's door
           2         and saying, "We're investigating so-and-so for
           3         robbing a bank," whatever, you know.  And -- it is
           4         just --
           5              THE COURT:  The person --
           6              THE WITNESS:  The person you are trying to DA.
           7              THE COURT:  Would it matter whether that was
           8         true or not?
           9              THE WITNESS:  No.  Not at all.
          10              THE COURT:  In other words, if you are
          11         investigating somebody, you can tell somebody you
          12         are investigating them for something which may have
          13         some basis in fact or may have no basis in fact?
          14              THE WITNESS:  Correct, they can send an
          15         investigator out to someone's door with a photograph
          16         of a little boy and -- with the subject and say,
          17         "Have you seen this man with this little boy," and
          18         infer there is something there.  Even though the
          19         answer is, "No, I haven't," you know, that may be
          20         the answer, but the seed that is planted in the
          21         person's mind when you are asking the question to,
          22         that is enough to damage some people's reputation if
          23         that is the goal.
          24              THE COURT:  And that could be considered
          25         investigate noisily?
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           1              THE WITNESS:  That could be considered
           2         investigate noisily.
           3              THE COURT:  Are you saying that is also
           4         considered a dead agent caper?
           5              THE WITNESS:  It could be viewed that way.  But
           6         a dead agent caper, at least the way that I had --
           7         I'm familiar with it, would be as I explained in my
           8         example of going someplace where someone was
           9         speaking publicly.
          10              THE COURT:  Okay.  But investigating noisily
          11         is -- is that that I just said?
          12              THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.  Correct.
          13              THE COURT:  Go ahead.
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'll hand you what has been marked as
          16    Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 153 and ask if you can identify
          17    that document for the Court.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  I think Mr. Prince put this one
          19         in evidence.
          20         A    Yes, this is a --
          21              THE COURT:  Wait a second.  When you hear
          22         somebody say "objection" --
          23              THE WITNESS:  I didn't hear him say it.  I'm
          24         sorry.
          25              THE COURT:  -- just wait until I do something.
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           1              I think that is right.  Do you remember,
           2         Mr. Dandar, whether this was introduced?
           3              MR. LIROT:  It is the HCO policy letter of 25
           4         April, 1968.
           5              THE COURT:  I think it is in evidence.
           6         However, Madam Clerk, here is what we're talking
           7         about.
           8              MR. DANDAR:  Here.  I'll give it to her.
           9              THE COURT:  Check and see if that is already in
          10         evidence.  If it is, would you please give us the
          11         number.  In the meantime, for the record, we will
          12         use 153.  And then --
          13              MR. LIROT:  We'll replace it when it is
          14         identified.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  I think it is 109B.
          16              MR. DANDAR:  It is 113 -- nope.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  Try 109.
          18              THE COURT:  Try 109B.
          19              MR. DANDAR:  No.  It is actually 113.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  Close.  It might be in twice.
          21         It might be 109B, too.
          22              THE COURT:  So it is also 113?
          23              MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
          24              THE COURT:  Then we'll change 153 to 113.  It
          25         is already in evidence --
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           1              MR. LIROT:  Twice.  Thank you, Judge.
           2              THE COURT:  Okay.  But he can look at it.
           3         Change it so he knows he's looking at 113.
           4              MR. LIROT:  (To the witness)  Did you note on
           5         that document that is Exhibit 113?
           6              Judge, if it wasn't introduced, I'll move it
           7         into evidence after he identified it.
           8              THE COURT:  Well, it was introduced.
           9              MR. LIROT:  Okay.
          10              MR. DANDAR:  It is in evidence, yes.
          11              MR. LIROT:  It is in evidence?
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    The Judge asked you about the noisy
          14    investigations, whether or not it mattered whether the
          15    questions were true or not.  I guess right under Number 3 it
          16    says "prosecute" on that.
          17              Did you -- were you required to review this
          18    document as part of your Pac?
          19         A    Yes.
          20         Q    Part of the investigative decision?
          21         A    Yes.
          22         Q    What is it they asked you about that particular
          23    paragraph, what your ability to embrace that paragraph was?
          24              THE COURT:  What paragraph?
          25              MR. LIROT:  Right under Number 3, "Prosecute,"
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           1         a little lower than the top half, it says:  "The
           2         standard actions of intelligence are that --" and
           3         then it has 1, 2 and 3.
           4         A    The standard actions of intelligence is what you
           5    are asking me about?
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    Yes.  Number 3.
           8         A    It says "Prosecute."
           9         Q    Okay.  And below that, what was explained to you
          10    the meaning of that particular statement in your training?
          11         A    Mmm, never defend.  Always attack.  That is the --
          12    that is what is done.
          13         Q    Did anybody explain to you what -- it says the
          14    point is even if you don't have enough data to win the case,
          15    still attack loudly?
          16         A    Correct.
          17         Q    All right.  Was that something that they tested
          18    you to make sure you were familiar with that concept?
          19         A    They -- I was checked out on this policy, I
          20    believe.  And at the time it was very, very fresh in my mind
          21    because I was -- Mmm, that is what I was doing at the time.
          22    I was -- it was very proactive, the type of activities I was
          23    involved in.
          24              MR. LIROT:  Judge, that one has already been
          25         moved in.
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    I'm going to hand you what has been marked as
           3    Plaintiff's Exhibit 154 and ask if you could describe this
           4    document to the Court.
           5         A    This is a HCO policy letter, "Security risks,
           6    infiltration."  This is a policy letter to -- you know,
           7    making the individual reading the policy letter aware of the
           8    concern for individuals infiltrating the organizations.  And
           9    it speaks --
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, your Honor, I mean, is he
          11         going to interpret it?
          12              THE COURT:  You know, I don't quite understand
          13         why you -- this is a man that was trained, given
          14         training -- why he can't interpret it.  This was a
          15         man asked to do a job in the Church.  And based on
          16         the job he was asked to do, he was given documents,
          17         he was tested on these documents to see if he
          18         understands these documents, and now he wants to
          19         tell us what he was told.  And we get an objection
          20         saying he can't do it, only somebody from within the
          21         Church.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  This one he said he probably
          23         was, he didn't even remember.
          24              But my -- but what I -- I mean, we could go on,
          25         I suppose, forever.  But the point is the document
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           1         is the document.  And --
           2              THE COURT:  That is true.  But to some extent
           3         there may be some need for me to understand.  I
           4         don't understand.  I mean, I have learned a lot.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I mean, our position is
           6         this man can't -- shouldn't be explaining to you
           7         what Scientology policies and --
           8              THE COURT:  I understand.  I think he can
           9         explain to me what he was taught when he took a
          10         course and was handed this.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  That is different.
          12              THE COURT:  So you may ask him that in that
          13         vein.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  What he was told?
          15              THE COURT:  What he was told.
          16              MR. LIROT:  Told.  Taught.
          17              THE COURT:  By another Scientologist.
          18              MR. LIROT:  Had to be checked off on his
          19         handling.  Apparently there is a checklist.  They
          20         have these identified specifically.  You have
          21         to show some understanding before you can be
          22         accredited -- before he can be part of this arm of
          23         the organization.
          24    BY MR. LIROT:
          25         Q    Mr. Oliver, do you recognize this document?
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           1         A    Yes.  This is part of my hat pack, your Honor.
           2    How it works is this.  You read the document.  You have the
           3    check sheet and it says to read X policy letter.  You take
           4    the policy letter.  You read it.  You read it for
           5    understanding.  You check any misunderstood words you have.
           6              Another individual in the same academy or someone
           7    that is assigned to you, if they say, "You go check out with
           8    this person," I put the policy in front of me, they ask me
           9    questions about it.  Once they determine that yes, I know
          10    what it means, that is it.  There is nothing else beyond
          11    that.  There is no classroom instruction, there is no -- if
          12    once I say and it is determined that I understand it and my
          13    initials are on the check sheet and I have read the policy
          14    letter, that is it.  I mean, to my understanding -- you
          15    know --
          16              THE COURT:  I --
          17         A    The organization is buildings.  People are what
          18    interpret policy.  So that is what policy is.  And if
          19    someone didn't have an understanding of something, I could
          20    easily point out a particular piece of policy and say,
          21    "There is a policy on that.  Read the policy."
          22              THE COURT:  Okay.  What question is it you have
          23         for him on this?
          24              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I want to understand what it
          25         meant in the fourth paragraph down that starts with
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           1         Form 7A and 7B, the third line of that paragraph
           2         says:  "To the increased reality in some cases, it
           3         may be necessary to substitute 'Committing bad
           4         things to' rather than 'consider committing overts
           5         against.'"
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    What does that mean?
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  That is -- therein lies the
           9         problem.  You could read it and you can draw your
          10         own interpretation from it.  Apparently the way --
          11         the way it is done, he read it and -- and drew an
          12         interpretation from it.  But --
          13              THE COURT:  That is all he's going to tell us.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  No.  No.  What Mr. Lirot's
          15         question was, what does that mean, as if that is
          16         the -- you know, that is the final word.
          17              THE COURT:  You-all get so upset when
          18         somebody -- someone talks about what was written by
          19         Mr. Hubbard.  He's going to testify what he thought
          20         it meant.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  I don't understand what that
          22         means to this hearing, but that is a lot different
          23         than the question Mr. Lirot asked, which is "What
          24         does that mean?"
          25              MR. LIROT:  I would assume, Judge, since the
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           1         tech is perfect, it must mean the same thing to
           2         everyone that read it.
           3              THE COURT:  You don't need to get into that.
           4         What does that mean to you, sir?
           5         A    What that means to me is that the bulletin is
           6    basically saying to substitute one particular phrase at the
           7    beginning of someone's auditing with another phrase.
           8              The phrase being asked to be substituted is
           9    substitute "consider committing bad things to," rather than
          10    "consider committing overts against."
          11              What it is saying, instead of using the command
          12    "consider committing overts against," "consider committing
          13    bad things to," because I know the definition of the word
          14    "consider committing bad things to," rather than "consider
          15    committing overts again" and substitute.
          16              I know the definition of all those words.  So
          17    because of that, I have an understanding of what this means.
          18    Now, I am not a trained auditor.  But I still know what this
          19    means and --
          20              THE COURT:  But this is an auditing command, is
          21         that right?
          22              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          23              THE COURT:  It would have no bearing in this
          24         case because Mr. Minton was not audited.
          25              THE WITNESS:  Right.  However, this --
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           1              THE COURT:  Wait.  Wait.
           2              THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.
           3              THE COURT:  Isn't that true, Mr. Lirot?
           4              MR. LIROT:  I'm interested -- if this deals
           5         with auditing, then I'm not interested in this.  I
           6         didn't understand it.
           7              THE COURT:  Okay.  Now I understand enough to
           8         know that it has nothing to do with this case -- or
           9         it had nothing to do with whatever it is you say you
          10         are introducing this for, which is what might have
          11         happened to Mr. Minton.
          12              THE WITNESS:  It was part of my training.  So I
          13         had to be familiar --
          14              THE COURT:  You I don't need to hear from
          15         anymore on this.
          16              THE WITNESS:  Sorry.
          17              MR. LIROT:  Fair enough, Judge.  We'll move
          18         along.
          19              THE COURT:  Trust me.  We've been at this 30
          20         days.  You are just a tiny little part of this.
          21              THE WITNESS:  Thank God.
          22              THE COURT:  So I don't -- when I say I don't
          23         need to hear from you on this, trust me, I know what
          24         I'm doing a little here.
          25
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    I'll hand you a document marked Plaintiff's
           3    Exhibit 155 and ask if you can explain that document.
           4         A    This is an HCO policy letter entitled "Corrupt
           5    Activities."  And it was part of my OSA hat pack.
           6         Q    This one says, "Corrupt activities of a few
           7    deprived many of their pay."
           8              Were you aware of where people were actually
           9    denied --
          10              THE COURT:  Excuse me, if you're going to read
          11         from something and you want me to follow, you'll
          12         have to tell me where you are reading from,
          13         because --
          14              MR. LIROT:  Very good.  I'm sorry, Judge.  I'm
          15         moving too fast for both of us, actually.  "Corrupt
          16         Activities."  Then there is a reference line.
          17              THE COURT:  Just give me paragraph.
          18              MR. LIROT:  Actually, the first text paragraph,
          19         "The corrupt activities of a few deprive many of
          20         their pay."
          21    BY MR. LIROT:
          22         Q    This also was one of the documents that you had to
          23    familiarize yourself with as part of your hat pack?
          24         A    Correct.
          25         Q    Did you ever know of any situations where people's
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           1    pay was withheld or reduced because of some things that
           2    other people had done?
           3              THE COURT:  And what would that have to do with
           4         this case, Counsel?  I mean, some of this just -- I
           5         mean, you have to tie it in to whatever it is that
           6         is going on in this hearing.
           7              MR. LIROT:  All right.  Judge, I just want to
           8         introduce it as part of the hat pack then.
           9              THE COURT:  All right.
          10              MR. LIROT:  I move 155 into evidence.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  My silence -- obviously this has
          12         to do with a staff member, not Mr. Minton.
          13              THE COURT:  I am waiting to see the relevance
          14         here, but I'm going to give some latitude here.
          15              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I think your wait is over.
          16    BY MR. LIROT:
          17         Q    I'll hand you a document marked as Exhibit Number
          18    156.  Can you identify that document for the Court?
          19         A    Yes.  It's an HCO policy letter dated 16 February,
          20    1969 called "Targets defense."
          21         Q    Did you review this document as part of your hat
          22    pack requirement?
          23         A    Yes.
          24         Q    What is a target in the context of this particular
          25    document?
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           1         A    Target is an individual that is named as the
           2    subject.  The individual that an action is to be taken upon.
           3         Q    All right.  And I think that there is a long list
           4    of -- on the back of Page 1, it talks about, "Vital targets
           5    which we --" and I would assume that is the investigative
           6    arm of OSA, we, "The vital targets on which we must invest
           7    most of our time are," if you could just review those --
           8              THE COURT:  I think that would be a bad
           9         assumption, Counselor.  This is a policy letter with
          10         distribution to OSA, PRs, and "we," I would guess,
          11         could mean "we" the Church --
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Exactly right, your Honor.
          13              THE WITNESS:  Well --
          14              THE COURT:  So I don't think you need to limit
          15         the "we" necessarily in here to a group.  Okay?
          16              MR. LIROT:  Fair enough, Judge.
          17              THE COURT:  All right.
          18              MR. LIROT:  Obviously, the question -- I have
          19         only identified him as being a member of OSA.  I
          20         guess it does, also, because of the distribution --
          21    BY MR. LIROT:
          22         Q    Do you know what "IMEC" is?
          23         A    Yes.
          24         Q    What is that?
          25         A    International Management Executive Committee.
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           1    That is senior executive management of the Church of
           2    Scientology.
           3         Q    And PRs?
           4         A    PRs.  That would be people involved in the PR
           5    division of the organization.
           6              THE COURT:  Public relations?
           7              THE WITNESS:  Correct.  Only those individuals
           8         would have access to that.  Not the general --
           9              THE COURT:  And management, I take it?
          10              THE WITNESS:  International management.
          11              THE COURT:  Is that Int?
          12              THE WITNESS:  Int.  Yes.
          13              MR. LIROT:  All right.
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    You heard Mr. Lieberman talk about the black
          16    propaganda as being something that the Church uses to defend
          17    itself --
          18              MR. LIEBERMAN:  That is not what I said,
          19         Mr. Lirot.
          20              THE COURT:  Well --
          21              MR. LIROT:  The record will speak for itself.
          22              THE COURT:  All right.
          23    BY MR. LIROT:
          24         Q    Based on your understanding of this document, is
          25    your participation with the Church based on defensive
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           1    tactics?
           2         A    No.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  What?
           4         A    Offensive tactics.
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    And did you familiarize yourself, on the front
           7    page there, with Items 1 through 9?
           8         A    Yes, I did.  They speak of errors that had been
           9    made in the past.  And that is what this policy letter is
          10    talking about, what to do based on mistakes of the past,
          11    what to do at this particular time that it was written.
          12              And that goes on, on the second page, the vital
          13    targets you spoke of earlier.  And these are T1 through T7.
          14         Q    Does the "T" stand for target, I guess?
          15         A    Target 1.
          16         Q    All right.  What is it that they have directed you
          17    to do or be familiar with your obligation and responsibility
          18    with as far as being accredited as a member of the
          19    investigative arm of OSA?
          20         A    The activities and the assignments given to me
          21    could be referenced back to policy letters as to the why
          22    behind a certain action or activity that I was assigned to,
          23    or that investigators below me were assigned to, or
          24    investigators working next to me or above me were assigned
          25    to.
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           1              This basically aligns an action with the policy so
           2    that there is some understanding as to why an action was
           3    done.  An action is just done because somebody feels like
           4    doing something, saying, "Hey, go do that"?  No, it has to
           5    conform to policy.  And this is the policy that puts into
           6    perspective the activity.
           7         Q    Were you ever assigned a task that in your
           8    understanding would require you to depopularize the enemy to
           9    a point of obliteration?
          10         A    Yes.
          11         Q    Can you give me an example of that, in general
          12    terms I think the Judge indicated she would like to hear the
          13    answers in.
          14         A    In a general term, not a specific --
          15              THE COURT:  Right, because we don't want to
          16         hear about a person.
          17         A    Not as a person.  An organization --
          18              THE COURT:  I mean, I don't want you to name --
          19         we don't want to have stuff in our record that would
          20         hurt any person.  Okay?
          21              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  How about an organization
          22         that doesn't exist anymore?
          23              THE COURT:  That is fine.
          24              THE WITNESS:  That is fine?  Okay.
          25         A    In July, part of August of 1991, I was sent to Los
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           1    Angeles to assist in the formation of a can unit whose
           2    stated -- the stated purpose of me going to Los Angeles was
           3    to bring about the destruction of the Cult Awareness Network
           4    and depopularizing the enemy to the point of obliteration.
           5              T1 falls in line with what happened to the Cult
           6    Awareness Network and the activities I participated in.
           7              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
           8         Number 156 into evidence.
           9              THE COURT:  Okay.
          10    BY MR. LIROT:
          11         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
          12    marked as Exhibit Number 157 and ask you to identify that
          13    document for the Court.
          14         A    This is an HCO policy letter of 16 February, 1969.
          15    The title is "Battle Tactics."
          16         Q    And is this another document that you had to
          17    familiarize yourself with and embrace as part of your hat
          18    checklist?
          19         A    Yes.
          20              MR. LIROT:  Judge, on that basis alone I would
          21         just like to move that document into evidence,
          22         Exhibit 157.
          23              THE COURT:  All right.
          24    BY MR. LIROT:
          25         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
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           1    marked as Exhibit 158.
           2              MR. DANDAR:  Here it is, 158.
           3    BY MR. LIROT:
           4         Q    Can you identify this document for the Court?
           5         A    Yes.  Yes.  I can.  This is an HCO policy letter
           6    of 17 February, 1966, "Public Investigation Section."
           7         Q    All right.  What is the Public Investigation
           8    Section?
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me, what is the question?
          10              THE COURT:  What is the Public Investigation
          11         Section?
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, as I understand it, there
          13         is no Public Investigation Section anymore in that
          14         name, so is he asking --
          15              THE COURT:  What was the Public Investigation
          16         Section?
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  You mean -- well, I guess it is
          18         whatever this document says.
          19              MR. DANDAR:  I object to counsel testifying.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
          21              THE COURT:  Sustained.
          22    BY MR. LIROT:
          23         Q    Help us clear up the confusion on this document,
          24    if you will, Mr. Oliver.
          25         A    Mr. Weinberg may be right.  But this document is
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           1    still part of the hat pack that was given to me.  And
           2    whether the -- whether something still exists or not in the
           3    policy, if it is on a check sheet, you still have to know
           4    what it means.  You still have to look it up.  You still
           5    have to know what it means, even if it is not there any
           6    longer.
           7              This -- this particular policy letter speaks about
           8    a section that did exist and what its functions were at the
           9    time it was in existence.  And it is included in the hat
          10    pack because it was written by LRH.  And it needs to be in
          11    the hat pack because the information within it is still
          12    applicable in the area I was still involved in, which is the
          13    Office of Special Affairs.  So that is why this is even here
          14    in front of us.
          15         Q    The last paragraph on that page refers to the
          16    statistic of the section.  If you would read that paragraph
          17    for the record and just tell me if that statistic -- I think
          18    you already testified the statistics are how you base your
          19    performance.
          20         A    Correct.
          21         Q    Read that for the record and tell me if that
          22    statistic analysis is still -- was still valid when you were
          23    operational at the investigative department.
          24         A    The statistic -- read it out loud?
          25         Q    Certainly.
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           1         A    "The statistics of the section is dual, consisting
           2    of the number of cases successfully investigated --"
           3              THE COURT:  Don't read it too fast.  My court
           4         reporter is taking this all down.
           5              THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.
           6         A    "-- successfully investigated on specific
           7    projects, and the number of derogatory news stories
           8    appearing that week relating to enemies of Scientology
           9    related to a specific project.  The statistic of each
          10    individual investigator is the number of cases personally
          11    investigated to a complete useful report.  These are
          12    reported to the HCO advisory committee and graphed each
          13    week.  Production of the section is the number of cases in a
          14    project process."
          15    BY MR. LIROT:
          16         Q    When you were in OSA, was it still a stat that
          17    they counted if you were able to get derogatory news stories
          18    published on enemies of Scientology?
          19         A    Yes.
          20              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
          21         Number 158 into evidence.
          22              THE COURT:  As part of the hat pack?
          23              MR. LIROT:  That is correct.
          24              THE COURT:  Okay.
          25
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    I'll hand you what we marked as Exhibit Number 159
           3    and ask you to identify that document for the Court.
           4         A    HCO policy letter of 1 September, 1969,
           5    "Counterespionage."
           6         Q    Was this one of the documents you were supposed to
           7    be familiar with as part of your accreditation in the
           8    investigative arm of OSA?
           9         A    Yes.  It was part of my hat pack.
          10         Q    What was your understanding of this document?  Why
          11    was this -- why was this important to be familiar with in
          12    your responsibilities?
          13         A    Mmm, again, this was a policy that was written to
          14    instruct, as well as to look out for, the activity.
          15              In many of the policies that I have read, both the
          16    activity and the counter of the activity are included.  That
          17    information is included in the policy letter itself.
          18    Basically what to look out for and how it's done in order to
          19    understand what you are looking out for, you have got to
          20    know how it is done.  So it is explained this way, but at
          21    the same time, since it is being explained on how it is
          22    done, it can also be used against an identified target.
          23         Q    And I think they talk about financial problems and
          24    espionage in the corporate world and espionage against
          25    governmental agencies?
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           1         A    Correct.  Uh-huh.
           2              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
           3         159 into evidence.
           4              THE COURT:  I have a question here for you.
           5         Maybe I can cut to the chase here a little bit.
           6              Are you suggesting that the basis for this
           7         being admitted is to give some validity to the
           8         allegation by both Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks that
           9         Mr. Minton was harassed in accordance with the
          10         harassment time line?
          11              MR. LIROT:  That is exactly the basis --
          12              THE COURT:  Well, that really hasn't been
          13         challenged by anyone.  Has it?
          14              MR. LIROT:  Well, Judge, I think in order to --
          15         obviously we want to bring forward as much relevant
          16         evidence to support that as we can.  I don't know
          17         what this Court's level of familiarity with what we
          18         find to be routine practices is.  But we want to be
          19         able to establish that this is not some isolated
          20         event, that clearly this is something that has been
          21         going on for a while and that, you know, clearly if
          22         that was the explanation for why Mr. Minton had done
          23         something, which certainly is what we allege is the
          24         reason he changed his position, we --
          25              THE COURT:  Well, that is really very
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           1         preliminary.  The way I look at this, if I can -- it
           2         is probably too late in the day for me to even think
           3         about talking about it, I'll have to come back and
           4         undo it all tomorrow -- but Mr. Minton testified,
           5         Ms. Brooks testified, in a time line of harassment,
           6         that is what they called it, time line of something.
           7         It was introduced.
           8              What Mr. Minton testified to was that, indeed,
           9         these things happened.
          10              Now, of course what has been played -- I don't
          11         know if you were here yesterday -- is some of the
          12         things on the time line may not have been quite as
          13         disastrous as they might have looked to somebody
          14         just reading them.  In one instance, he was right
          15         there participating as he was being sort of
          16         picketed, and it looked like he was having more fun
          17         than the picketers.  So it would be doubtful if that
          18         was harassment.
          19              But other than that, there really hasn't been
          20         any testimony introduced to suggest some of these
          21         things did not happen.  And so -- but that is
          22         preliminary.  In other words, those are the things
          23         that were happening when Mr. Minton presumably was
          24         an anti-Scientologist.  Right?
          25              MR. LIROT:  Yes.
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           1              THE COURT:  He says they happened.  Ms. Brooks
           2         said they happened.  And nobody has come in and
           3         testified they didn't happen.
           4              MR. LIROT:  It's what nobody has testified to
           5         that did happen that serves as the basis for why
           6         this is very relevant.  We think -- obviously,
           7         Judge, I'll be very candid with the Court,
           8         circumstantially we have Mr. Minton saying, "Well,
           9         the only reason I did this was because --"
          10              THE COURT:  Did what?  Did what?
          11              MR. LIROT:  Changed his position.
          12              THE COURT:  Okay.
          13              MR. LIROT:  "I changed my position so I
          14         wouldn't go to jail for contempt, and I want to come
          15         clean, I want to set the record straight."  Clearly,
          16         the Court is familiar with that testimony.
          17              THE COURT:  Right.
          18              MR. LIROT:  We've heard about the time line.
          19         We've read the notes from Mr. Jonas and Mr. Rosen
          20         and Ms. Yingling.
          21              So circumstantially, I think we're putting
          22         together an explanation for something far and away
          23         different than I think what was testified to at
          24         least by the defense witnesses as the explanation
          25         for why we have this change of position.
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           1              We feel that we're able to show, at least
           2         through circumstantial evidence that all points to
           3         the center of our argument, that this is not what it
           4         has been presented to this Court as being.  And that
           5         Mr. Minton was not concerned one wit about being in
           6         trouble for contempt or any of those other things.
           7         And I think --
           8              THE COURT:  Well --
           9              MR. LIROT:  -- one of the very first days --
          10         and I don't want to prattle and I don't want to be
          11         chastised about it --
          12              THE COURT:  Too late.
          13              What I am suggesting, and that is why I was
          14         asking, if this is being put into evidence to
          15         establish what Mr. Minton said and what Ms. Brooks'
          16         time line basically of harassment, the things that
          17         she said happened that caused Mr. Minton to be
          18         disturbed, which he said he was, whether they
          19         happened or not, or whether there is some truth
          20         behind that.
          21              If that is the purpose, all I was suggesting to
          22         you is that thus far the only thing Mr. Minton has
          23         suggested maybe wasn't true was the fact that when
          24         he and Mr. Rinder were talking, Mr. Rinder said --
          25         granted it is hearsay -- but Mr. Rinder said they
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           1         were not involved in the surveillance or whatever of
           2         his children.  Other than that, he didn't back off
           3         of that.
           4              So I guess what I'm saying, if that is the
           5         purpose, I don't know if you need it until there --
           6         see what I'm saying?
           7              MR. LIROT:  I understand, Judge.  Candidly, it
           8         corroborates that.
           9              THE COURT:  Okay.
          10              MR. LIROT:  It doesn't need to be corroborated,
          11         nobody challenged it.  But -- it also corroborates
          12         our theory, but it goes beyond that.  And I think in
          13         order for this Court to have a full and fair
          14         understanding --
          15              THE COURT:  I mean, I do remember the lawyer
          16         said just because we let it in doesn't mean we agree
          17         with it, but the truth of the matter is that if
          18         Stacy Brooks testified that it is correct, and that
          19         was her time line, and that is what it was, and
          20         nobody comes in to say that it isn't correct, that
          21         is what is known as uncontroverted evidence.
          22              MR. LIROT:  Right.
          23              THE COURT:  So, consequently, I mean, they have
          24         to know that, too.  And they've rested.  So --
          25              MR. LIROT:  Understood.  And I'm not trying to
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           1         be cumulative, Judge.  And I didn't mean to
           2         interrupt.
           3              THE COURT:  Well, go on ahead.  I guess what
           4         I'm saying is you may not have to go to all of the
           5         length to explain everything; you may just want to
           6         introduce it and use it in your closing argument as
           7         to the relevance.
           8              Whatever it is you need him to explain, that is
           9         fine.  Go on ahead and do that.  But --
          10              MR. LIROT:  I tell you what, Judge, if I could
          11         beg the court's indulgence, if I could review this
          12         with Mr. Dandar and maybe take five minutes, I might
          13         be able to introduce most of this just based on
          14         authentication, save the Court a lot of time, and
          15         try to finish at least our portion of Mr. Oliver
          16         today.
          17              THE COURT:  You can certainly do that.
          18              MR. LIROT:  Is that all right?
          19              THE COURT:  Sure.  In other words, why don't
          20         you-all take a look at it.  I don't mind quitting
          21         early for today.
          22              MR. LIROT:  It wouldn't break my heart, Judge.
          23              THE COURT:  If you want to just stop, and if
          24         you-all take a look at that and see what, out of
          25         this stuff, you really feel you need to have some
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           1         explanation and what is it you just want in so you
           2         can use it in your closing argument.
           3              I'm counting on both sides having a long time
           4         to --
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
           6              THE COURT:  -- put together -- I mean, this is
           7         a huge hearing.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  We'll need a long time.
           9              THE COURT:  Once it is in, you can use it and
          10         what have you.  I'm trying to take everything that
          11         gets admitted home and read it.
          12              MR. LIROT:  Certainly.
          13              THE COURT:  I read through practically an
          14         80-something-page affidavit last night that looked
          15         fairly familiar.  I kept thinking, "I think I have
          16         seen this, I think this is familiar."  Then finally
          17         today I was able to find out that I had read it.
          18              So even though I have read this stuff, every
          19         night diligently I try to read everything -- I'm
          20         right now reading Mr. Miscavige's affidavit that was
          21         introduced yesterday that -- I didn't take it home
          22         because I knew that I had not caught up with the
          23         night before.
          24              But you guys -- I mean, just look at the stuff
          25         you have introduced already, which may or may not
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           1         have relevance.  But, I mean, so you guys will have
           2         to pull this together.  So just asking him what does
           3         this mean --
           4              MR. LIROT:  I understand.
           5              THE COURT:  -- and thinking that I'm going to
           6         be able to -- if you have a smoking gun, for
           7         heaven's sakes, go on ahead and do it, both sides.
           8         You know what I mean?  But if you are just getting
           9         this stuff into evidence so you can refer to it for
          10         your theory, get it in and use it however you want
          11         to in your closing argument.
          12              MR. LIROT:  All right, Judge.
          13              THE COURT:  You see what I'm saying?
          14              MR. LIROT:  Excellent.
          15              THE COURT:  Okay.  And that, of course, goes
          16         for both sides.  If you have something that, you
          17         know, I hear and I'll remember it for days and days.
          18         But having him explain whatever he just explained to
          19         on this, it's gone.  You know, it will come back
          20         when you refer me to the document, Document 159 --
          21              MR. LIROT:  I understand the Court's -- the
          22         Court's wishes.
          23              THE COURT:  Let's do that.  Let's go on ahead
          24         and take a little break.  Now, what I'm going to
          25         say, he hardly testified to anything that is
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           1         anything.  So if -- and they are going through these
           2         documents, if they want to ask him something, I'm
           3         going to let them.  All right?  Because nothing
           4         happened.  I mean, we haven't gotten very far with
           5         this witness.  I don't want you talking to him in
           6         any great detail, but if you want to say, "Why, you
           7         have gone through this, what is this," get an
           8         explanation, to speed this along tomorrow, I'll
           9         allow that.
          10              MR. LIROT:  We'll do that.
          11              THE COURT:  Let's just quit for the day.  Maybe
          12         this will go faster.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  Thank you, your Honor.
          14              THE COURT:  I'll leave all this here tonight.
          15              MR. DANDAR:  I'm sorry, the other witness we'll
          16         be calling tomorrow, her name is Nancy Many,
          17         M-A-N-Y.
          18              THE COURT:  You are going to testify -- finish
          19         up tomorrow?
          20              MR. DANDAR:  I think there are some things we
          21         didn't talk about because we interrupted to put on
          22         other witnesses.
          23              THE COURT:  Well, there are some things I'm not
          24         even sure you even discussed yet.  But -- I mean, I
          25         realize your testimony has been kind of
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           1         intermittent, but you better look at it and see if
           2         there is anything you haven't finished that you want
           3         to get in but -- I remember, for example, one thing
           4         that came to my mind was Mr. Minton -- nobody ever
           5         asked him a question about this.  All of a sudden,
           6         right at the end, he remembered something else he
           7         lied about, which was that he gave you $60,000 as an
           8         attorney fee.  You know, that is one of those things
           9         that is in there unrebutted.  I don't know why he
          10         was giving you an attorney fee because you are on a
          11         contingency basis.  But there it is.
          12              I don't know -- you never discussed it.  This
          13         is what he said.  It is in a subsequent affidavit.
          14         It would seem like, you know, you might -- I would
          15         like to know what that is all about.
          16              MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
          17              THE COURT:  You are the only other person,
          18         other than him, that could discuss that.  He wasn't
          19         asked by either side.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  No, I think what he said was --
          21         and I could be wrong -- was that he knew that
          22         Mr. Dandar had used $60,000 of the moneys as a fee,
          23         as opposed to giving him something more, you know.
          24              THE COURT:  He said Mr. -- Mr. Dandar said he
          25         needed $60,000 -- I think he used the term --
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           1         attorney fees.
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  That is what he said.
           3              THE COURT:  Then I thought I wonder what that
           4         means.  Like what attorney fee?
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
           6              THE COURT:  Then I thought somebody would ask
           7         him, because he was on the stand a long time, and
           8         nobody ever did.  So that is kind of out there.
           9         Then I think he corrected it on his --
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  He did.
          11              THE COURT:  -- his latest recantation --
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  He did.
          13              THE COURT:  -- and brought that up.  But, there
          14         again, I don't know what he's talking about.  So
          15         that is something that Mr. Dandar may want to -- so
          16         there are some things I think you may need to talk
          17         about.
          18              MR. DANDAR:  All right.
          19              THE COURT:  But you will be short, is that what
          20         you're telling me?
          21              MR. DANDAR:  I would hope so.
          22              THE COURT:  Then this person, is that your last
          23         witness?
          24              MR. DANDAR:  Right.
          25              THE COURT:  I'll try tonight --
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  We would be ready Monday for
           2         rebuttal.
           3              THE COURT:  What is tomorrow?  Is that Friday?
           4              MR. DANDAR:  Friday.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Friday.
           6              THE COURT:  Good.  I'll try to get you the
           7         E-Mails.  I just can't get you those tapes.  They
           8         are an hour apiece and there are five hours of them.
           9         But, listen, if I review them and then I give them
          10         to you-all, I will already have seen them.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  I guess --
          12              THE COURT:  So whatever you want introduced, I
          13         will have seen them.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  We need to look at them.
          15              THE COURT:  I understand that.  But I guess
          16         what I'm saying is you could just simply --
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  Maybe --
          18              THE COURT:  -- tell me what it is --
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
          20              THE COURT:  -- after the fact.  You-all will
          21         need time to do closing argument, you can say you
          22         want to introduce them, see if Mr. Dandar objected.
          23         If so, I could make a ruling --
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  I mean, if you --
          25              THE COURT:  -- if I let it in, I'll make a
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           1         ruling.  But --
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  If you viewed them this weekend,
           3         for example, and you decided to give them to us, if
           4         there was some way to communicate with you, if you
           5         made that decision, we could take them this weekend
           6         whenever you did it --
           7              THE COURT:  I don't know --
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm not pushing you.
           9              THE COURT:  Thank you, but I'm duty judge.
          10         This means I have to go out to the Criminal Justice
          11         Center, see every kid that is picked up, every
          12         misdemeanor and felon that is picked up on both
          13         Saturday and Sunday.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  The Supreme Court, I guess with
          15         the King case you never had to do anything or --
          16              THE COURT:  I have not yet.  However, I'm kept
          17         up-to-date every day on what is happening.  And I
          18         always have calls and I always am on the website to
          19         see.  But right now it is in the status where I do
          20         not have to do anything except check what is going
          21         on.
          22              But -- but I do have to, this weekend, be duty
          23         judge.  That only gives me the afternoon.  And as I
          24         said, they said an hour apiece, and there are five
          25         tapes.  That is five hours of stuff I'm sure I don't
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           1         want to see because this is just stuff from LMT, you
           2         know.  I have seen stuff from LMT.  The other
           3         stuff -- I mean, that is either probably pickets
           4         or --
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Whatever.  I mean, whatever you
           6         see, we'll take it and then figure out whether we --
           7         what we want to play out of it.
           8              THE COURT:  You think you'll finish by tomorrow
           9         possibly?
          10              MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
          11              MR. LIROT:  Yes, your Honor, we will.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  We'll do Monday.
          13              MR. LIEBERMAN:  You won't mind if I leave at
          14         four tomorrow?
          15              THE COURT:  I won't mind at all.  Is that
          16         Friday you need to get home to New York?
          17              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
          18              THE COURT:  Mr. Moxon, have you been home to
          19         California lately?
          20              MR. MOXON:  Not lately.  But soon.  Thank you.
          21              THE COURT:  Sir, you are excused.  That little
          22         rule I just gave you on relaxing enough if they want
          23         to go over these documents to see if we can speed
          24         this along a little bit, it is all right.  If they
          25         ask you anything, you can assume they understood
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           1         what I said and you can answer them.  All right?
           2              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  All right.
           3              THE COURT:  We're in recess until tomorrow at
           4         9~o'clock.
           5              (WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 4:30
           6         p.m.)
           7              ______________________________________
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           1                     CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
           2    STATE OF FLORIDA         )
           3    COUNTY OF PINELLAS       )
           4              I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
                certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
           5    report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
                a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
           6
                          I further certify that I am not a relative,
           7    employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
                am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
           8    attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
                financially interested in the action.
           9
          10              DATED this 11th day of July, 2002.
          11
          12
          13                              ______________________________
                                              LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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