143
           1        IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
           2                      CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
           3
           4
           5
                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
           6    Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,
           7
           8              Plaintiff,
           9    vs.                                     VOLUME 2
          10    CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
                SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
          11    JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
          12
                          Defendants.
          13
                _______________________________________/
          14
          15
          16    PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
          17
                CONTENTS:           Testimony of Frank Oliver.
          18
                DATE:               July 12, 2002.  Afternoon Session.
          19
                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
          20                        St. Petersburg, Florida.
          21    BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
                                    Circuit Judge.
          22
                REPORTED BY:        Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
          23                        Deputy Official Court Reporter,
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
          24
          25
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           1    APPEARANCES:
           2
                MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
           3    DANDAR & DANDAR
                5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
           4    Tampa, FL 33602
                Attorney for Plaintiff.
           5
                MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
           6    LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
                112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
           7    Tampa, FL 33602-4108
                Attorney for Plaintiff
           8
           9    MR. KENDRICK MOXON
                MOXON & KOBRIN
          10    1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
                Clearwater, FL 33755
          11    Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
                Organization.
          12
          13    MR. LEE FUGATE
                MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
          14    ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
                101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
          15    Tampa, FL 33602-5147
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
          16    Organization.
          17
                MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
          18    RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
                740 Broadway at Astor Place
          19    New York, NY 10003-9518
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
          20    Organization.
          21
          22
          23
          24
          25
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           1              THE COURT:  You understand the same oath we
           2         gave you yesterday you are under now throughout your
           3         testimony?
           4              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.  I understand.
           5              THE COURT:  You may continue.  I'm sorry if you
           6         were waiting for me.
           7              MR. LIROT:  Thank you, Judge.
           8                    DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED
           9    BY MR. LIROT:
          10         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
          11    marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 160 and ask if you can
          12    identify that document for the Court.
          13         A    Yes, I can.  This is an executive directive,
          14    "Security Situation Handling Checklist."
          15         Q    And is this one of the documents that you were
          16    required to be familiar with as part of your participation
          17    in OSA?
          18         A    Yes.  It was.
          19         Q    All right.  What was it in this document that you
          20    were required to be familiar with?
          21         A    Mmm, this particular document is -- it's a check
          22    sheet that delineates different types of categories that
          23    would be of concern to the Office of Special Affairs,
          24    categories of individuals who would be identified as
          25    potential security situations.  They referred to people
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           1    within and outside of the organization in the description of
           2    the different categories.
           3         Q    All right.  Now, on the back -- on the second
           4    page, amongst, I guess, the theories of public people
           5    attacking the organization and squirrels which I think we've
           6    become familiar with, and external sources threatening legal
           7    action and newspaper reporters and things, if you turn to
           8    the second page and look at Subsection G, was there ever any
           9    explanation as to why that particular category would be
          10    listed as threats to the -- I guess the security of
          11    Scientology?
          12         A    Yes.  These particular individuals, as shown here,
          13    would be considered people that were PTS, that could cause
          14    serious problems with the organization.  They would be
          15    something that the Office of Special Affairs would
          16    definitely be aware of and would look into to try and handle
          17    whatever situation arose because of that type of person
          18    being identified.
          19              Someone who is Type III, for example.  Or anyone
          20    that would be antagonistic that could be connected to them.
          21    If you have somebody that was.  Or an attempted suicide
          22    case, that delineates here, anyone connected to them, that
          23    could cause a problem for the organization in terms of
          24    making the problem public, making it known, taking it
          25    outside of the organization for it to be handled.
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           1         Q    So not to assume anything, but in studying this,
           2    what did you understand where it says, "Any external or
           3    antagonistic connections to them, to a suicide case or a PTS
           4    Type III," what would an external or antagonistic case or
           5    PTS case type be?
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  Are you talking about what it
           7         means to you as to what --
           8              THE COURT:  Yes.  To him.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  To him?
          10         A    Okay, my understanding, from reading this, and
          11    knowing the definition of what that says, it would be the
          12    family members that would be associated with that type of an
          13    individual.  If they would be antagonistic to the
          14    organization, then it would be something they would want to
          15    handle, because if you could handle the individual within
          16    the organization, you can't not be able to handle the
          17    family, as well, or anyone connected to them.  And that
          18    would be outside of the organization.
          19              What the checklist does is it identifies which
          20    categories of individuals delineated on the list would be a
          21    matter for whether it be internal, handled by HCO, or
          22    whether it be something handled by the Office of Special
          23    Affairs that would be something that would be outward
          24    facing, or external.
          25              The Office of Special Affairs is an
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           1    outward-looking unit.  And basically what it does, it sets
           2    itself up as a shield, if you will, to -- Mmm -- handle
           3    anything from an outside source that would cause a problem
           4    for Scientology.  So it is basically the front line.
           5              And this kind of shows what the things -- what
           6    things you do to handle the different types of individuals.
           7    If it is somebody who is connected to a group, let's say,
           8    some kind of -- as it says here, members connected to
           9    anti-religious group, for example.  They would identify that
          10    as being something that OSA would handle, versus something
          11    that HCO would handle, or somebody that was in the
          12    organization, that may be a different case manifestation or
          13    something they would have to handle on the individual inside
          14    the organization.
          15         Q    Would OSA covertly surveil the distraught parents
          16    of a suicide victim, situations under this -- this policy
          17    letter?
          18         A    Under the policy letter, it would be a matter for
          19    OSA to handle.  And they would do the actions that OSA
          20    partake in.  The things that OSA does, whether it be
          21    investigation, OBC, anything they deem that would be
          22    important to gather information on that individual, if it
          23    was a family member or any outside source, they would do the
          24    steps that are delineated in the check sheet, steps
          25    delineated -- the responsibilities of the Office of Special
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           1    Affairs, that is what they would take care of.
           2              So that goes without saying, almost, but I'll say
           3    it.
           4              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
           5         160 into evidence.
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  It is my continuing objection.
           7         Remember, yesterday, about how he got the documents?
           8              THE COURT:  Are you saying these are part of
           9         the stolen documents?
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.  But, you know, that is my
          11         only objection, the manner in which he got them, not
          12         the policy itself.
          13              THE COURT:  Okay.  It will be received.
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
          16    marked as Exhibit 161 and ask you if you can identify that
          17    for the Court.
          18         A    Yes.  Yes, this is Hubbard Communications Office
          19    policy letter dated -- dated 15 August, 1960.
          20              THE COURT:  Maybe I'm confused.  And I do want
          21         to clear this up because in my mind I need to get
          22         this cleared up.  I was thinking yesterday that once
          23         we really got into this, that the stolen matters
          24         were like the notes, not the documents.
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  It is really his -- it's a lot
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           1         of things that he took that, by agreement, he wasn't
           2         entitled to take.
           3              I'm not objecting to the way Hubbard policy,
           4         per se -- I'm objecting to the way in which these
           5         came into possession of Mr. Oliver.  All right?
           6              THE COURT:  Just so I know and just so I'm
           7         clear, Mr. Oliver has testified that he took a
           8         course which he paid for, I take it --
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  No.  No.  No.  No.  These
          10         materials were part of his job, his hat at OSA in
          11         the Church.
          12              In other words, he wasn't a public member
          13         taking a course.  He was a staff member, much like,
          14         you know, an employee would come to my firm and get,
          15         among other things, an office manual, for example,
          16         and various other things that would set forth, you
          17         know, the rules and regulations of being at my law
          18         firm, for example.
          19              MR. LIROT:  Well, Judge --
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  So, I mean, I'll go over it in
          21         cross-examination.
          22              THE COURT:  All right.
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  That is my objection.
          24              THE COURT:  For now, I'll let them in and we'll
          25         see if there is a legal question for them after
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           1         we're done.
           2              MR. LIROT:  Judge, as a brief response, these
           3         are all copywritten documents.  These are no
           4         different than policy letters identified, I guess,
           5         as scripture of the Church, apparently that we have
           6         volumes and volumes of.
           7              THE COURT:  I'm letting them in for now.  And
           8         we're going to let him cross-examine, and then if
           9         there is a legal issue, I'll address it and give you
          10         an opportunity to argue it, as well as the Church to
          11         argue it.
          12              MR. LIROT:  Thank you, Judge.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  Which exhibit are you on?
          14              MR. LIROT:  We're on 161.  This is one of the
          15         ones we decided we would expedite.
          16    BY MR. LIROT:
          17         Q    This is one of the documents, one of the policy
          18    letters you were required to be familiar with, and you would
          19    dispatch the policies in this letter as part of your
          20    affiliation with OSA, is that correct?
          21         A    Yes.  This is part of the documents I was to
          22    become very familiar with.
          23              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move 161
          24         into evidence.
          25              THE COURT:  Subject to the same --
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
           2              THE COURT:  Yes.
           3    BY MR. LIROT:
           4         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'll hand you what we marked as
           5    Exhibit 162 and ask if you can identify this document for
           6    the Court.
           7         A    Mmm, this is a Hubbard Communications Office
           8    bulletin of 5 November, 1967 entitled "Critics of
           9    Scientology."
          10              THE COURT:  Tell me, on the distribution --
          11         what I perceive to have been in the past
          12         distribution data, what a "BPI" is on the left-hand
          13         side?
          14              THE WITNESS:  Broad -- I believe it is "broad
          15         public issue," which means it is something
          16         disseminated broadly within the organization.
          17              THE COURT:  Okay.
          18    BY MR. LIROT:
          19         Q    Mr. Oliver, you were looking at Exhibit 162, "The
          20    Critics of Scientology."
          21         A    Yes.
          22         Q    Can you tell me what elements of this
          23    particular -- this is a bulletin.  Please identify the
          24    concepts in this bulletin that you were required to be
          25    familiar with and dispatch in your responsibilities with
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           1    OSA.
           2         A    This was written to point out or to -- to make it
           3    known that if it was determined to be a fact that --
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, what my objection
           5         is, he's saying it was written for a particular
           6         reason.
           7              The question is what was it in this document
           8         that you were -- had to become familiar with.
           9              THE COURT:  Well, you know, I was interested in
          10         that, too, because the truth of the matter is if he
          11         was told to read the document, I'm assuming he was
          12         supposed to read the whole document.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  What I'm saying, when he says it
          14         was written for a particular reason, obviously
          15         Mr. Hubbard wrote it.
          16              THE COURT:  Right.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  I think this is one Mr. Hubbard
          18         wrote.  You and I and no one else in the world, you
          19         know, know exactly what was the reason.
          20              THE COURT:  That is sustained.  But let me see
          21         if I'm right on this.  When you are asked what were
          22         you to be familiar with, I assume if you are given
          23         the document, you are to be familiar with everything
          24         that is in it.
          25              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
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           1              THE COURT:  I mean, they didn't just mark
           2         little pieces of it and say "Just learn this"?
           3              THE WITNESS:  No.  The whole thing.
           4              THE COURT:  So when you are talking about a
           5         given piece, it is because you are being asked a
           6         question about that, not because you weren't
           7         familiar and expected to be familiar with the entire
           8         document?  True?
           9              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, your Honor.
          10              THE COURT:  Okay.
          11              MR. LIROT:  All right.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    Mr. Oliver, let me draw your attention down to the
          14    last two lines on Page 782 of this particular exhibit.  Read
          15    that into the record, if you will, and tell me what your
          16    understanding of that particular concept in that paragraph
          17    was.
          18         A    "Now, get this as a technical fact, not a hopeful
          19    idea.  Every time we have investigated the background of a
          20    critic of Scientology, we have found crime for which that
          21    person or group could be imprisoned under existing law.  We
          22    do not find critics of Scientology who do not have criminal
          23    pasts.  Over and over we have proved this."
          24         Q    What was the idea behind that when you were
          25    dispatching your responsibilities for critics of
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           1    Scientology?
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me.  The same objection.
           3              THE COURT:  Yes.  I think that is a difficult
           4         thing for him to answer, what was the -- whatever it
           5         is behind that.  I mean, it says what it says.  It
           6         doesn't use any odd language.  I understand what
           7         they're saying.  I'm not sure what you're asking
           8         him.
           9              Were you to go out and try to prove these
          10         crimes?  Is that part of what OSA did?
          11              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  This policy letter states
          12         it in such a way that any actions taken by the
          13         individual in the Office of Special Affairs reading
          14         this that has to know it, that has to go out on
          15         assignment and do anything, that is a basic premise.
          16         Anybody who speaks out against Scientology is a
          17         criminal.  That is a given.
          18              So this policy letter just reiterates that
          19         fact, which isn't necessarily a fact.
          20    BY MR. LIROT:
          21         Q    Well, does this mean that whether or not somebody
          22    actually has crimes as, I guess, the definition would be
          23    outside of Scientology, whether OSA would try to create
          24    situations that would infer or by innuendo suggest that such
          25    crimes, real or imagined, exist?
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           1         A    I --
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to the form of the
           3         question, your Honor.
           4              THE COURT:  Sustained.
           5              What does this mean to you?
           6              THE WITNESS:  To me, it meant that anything
           7         that was asked of an individual like myself in the
           8         Office of Special Affairs to do could be justified
           9         in that this, as it was written, states that anyone
          10         who speaks out critically about Scientology has some
          11         kind of crime or is a criminal.  Thus, there are
          12         policies that dictate how that individual is to be
          13         handled, how that individual is to be investigated,
          14         and the fact that the organization is correct in all
          15         its assumptions in that anyone that speaks out
          16         critically is a criminal, that they are correct just
          17         by mere virtue of the written word of L. Ron
          18         Hubbard.
          19              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
          20         162 into evidence.
          21              THE COURT:  It will be received.
          22    BY MR. LIROT:
          23         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
          24    marked as Exhibit 163 and ask you if you can identify this
          25    for the Court.
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           1         A    This is a Hubbard Communications Office policy
           2    letter of 25 February, 1966 entitled "Attacks on
           3    Scientology."
           4         Q    Was this one of the documents that you were
           5    required to be familiar with as part of your training and
           6    accreditation in OSA?
           7         A    Yes.
           8              MR. LIROT:  I would like to move Exhibit 163
           9         into evidence, Judge.
          10              THE COURT:  It will be received.
          11              Can you tell me what a R-E-M-I --
          12              THE WITNESS:  Remimeo?
          13              THE COURT:  Right.
          14              THE WITNESS:  I believe it was part of the
          15         organization that did the -- I believe it was
          16         involved in doing printing of this or reduplicating
          17         of it, I believe.  I'm not sure of that, your Honor,
          18         but I believe --
          19              THE COURT:  Am I right that these things up
          20         here on the left-hand side are generally the people
          21         to whom this is distributed?
          22              THE WITNESS:  Correct, your Honor.  That is a
          23         distribution area of the document.
          24              THE COURT:  I'm talking about the first one.  I
          25         can't even read it.
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           1              THE WITNESS:  Remimeo.  Everything in the upper
           2         left-hand corner of the policy letter indicates who
           3         the individuals are that this policy letter -- these
           4         people are to know about this policy letter.
           5              THE COURT:  Who is that?  Here it is.  Look at
           6         it on the next page, next one, it looks like it is
           7         R-E-M-I-M-C-O.
           8              THE WITNESS:  R-E-M-I-M-E-O.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I think I can
          10         clarify that.
          11              THE COURT:  All right.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  I think all it means it can be
          13         recopied at the local org.
          14              MR. LIROT:  Prior to the advent of the copy
          15         machine it used to be the mimeograph, and they would
          16         have those machines that would roll off the copies
          17         and have that pungent aroma.
          18              THE COURT:  I do remember those.
          19              MR. LIROT:  All right.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  So it is not -- it is not --
          21              THE COURT:  A section --
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  -- a section or anything.  It is
          23         just --
          24              THE COURT:  Thank you.
          25              THE WITNESS:  I stand corrected.
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           1              THE COURT:  So I let in 163, was that right?
           2              MR. LIROT:  Yes.
           3              THE COURT:  Now we're on 164?
           4              MR. LIROT:  We're on 164 now, Judge.
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
           7    marked as Exhibit 164 and ask if you can identify that for
           8    the Court.
           9         A    Yes, this is an HCO policy letter of 25 April,
          10    1968 entitled "Intelligence Actions."
          11         Q    And was this one of the documents you were
          12    required to be familiar with as part of your OSA training
          13    and accreditation?
          14         A    Yes.
          15              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
          16         164 into evidence.
          17              THE COURT:  I thought it already was.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  That would be a good example,
          19         Judge, of a document not for general release if you
          20         look at the corner, of why we would have an
          21         objection to it being taken without the authority of
          22         the Church.
          23              THE COURT:  All right.  You will raise that
          24         again --
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
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           1              MR. LIROT:  Judge, the next two exhibits, 165
           2         and 166, as I understand it these have already been
           3         entered.  And I believe they were 8 and 9.  These
           4         were entered early on, I think when Ms. Brooks was
           5         testifying.
           6              THE COURT:  I don't object to them being
           7         introduced again as far as a part of this packet if
           8         he got both of them.
           9              But did you get both of them?
          10              THE WITNESS:  I haven't gotten either of them.
          11              MR. LIROT:  I'm going to hand those up right
          12         now, Judge.
          13    BY MR. LIROT:
          14         Q    Can you identify those documents for the Court,
          15    Mr. Oliver?
          16         A    Yes.  One is a document entitled "Penalties for
          17    Lower Conditions."
          18              And the -- it is dated HCO policy letter 18
          19    October, 1967.
          20              The other policy letter is dated 21 October, 1968
          21    entitled "Cancellation of Fair Game."
          22         Q    "Penalties for Lower Conditions," is that just
          23    another way -- I guess fancy way of saying this is what we
          24    do with critics or enemies of Scientology?
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection, your Honor.
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           1              THE COURT:  Sustained.  The objection is that
           2         you told him what the answer is.
           3              MR. LIROT:  All right.
           4    BY MR. LIROT:
           5         Q    Look at Exhibit 165 and tell me what that is,
           6    Mr. Oliver.
           7         A    It's -- it seems to be what the penalties would be
           8    for an individual that would be assigned a lower condition
           9    in the condition formulas -- and the conditions as assigned
          10    in Scientology:  Liability, treason, doubt and enemy.  And
          11    next to the condition, it shows what the penalty would be
          12    for that.
          13         Q    And the penalties for an enemy?
          14         A    It says "SP order."  SP meaning suppressive
          15    person.  "Fair game.  May be deprived of property or injured
          16    by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of
          17    the Scientologist, may be tricked, sued or lied to or
          18    destroyed."
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  I object to this particular
          20         document.  As you know, there has been a
          21         cancellation and another explanation and all this
          22         after that, as you know, about the fair game.
          23              MR. LIROT:  I was just about to get to it,
          24         Judge.
          25              THE COURT:  Yes, this has been the subject of
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           1         quite a bit of discussion in this hearing.  There
           2         has also been some discussion on the next document
           3         and whether or not this cancellation of fair game
           4         applies to the handling of an SP.  So I understand
           5         your objection.  I think you made it before.  And
           6         I'll have to decide how I'll rule on that at some
           7         point in time.
           8              MR. LIROT:  Obviously, Judge, this one has
           9         already been entered, so I'll not reenter it --
          10              THE COURT:  Well, you can if, in fact, it is
          11         part of --
          12              MR. LIROT:  I'll move these two into evidence
          13         as part of this packet.
          14              THE COURT:  Did you get both of them?
          15              THE WITNESS:  I received information in -- I
          16         actually had to put my pack together when I
          17         originally got it when it was originally given to
          18         me, because at the time I was in the Office of
          19         Special Affairs in Los Angeles was the first time
          20         they had actually created that pack.
          21              I was supposed to receive my pack in my org in
          22         Miami.  And I was told by my senior to wait until I
          23         got to Los Angeles and they would give me a
          24         brand-new pack.  In the meanwhile, she assisted me
          25         in finding policy letters that were part of, you
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           1         know, that pack and the information I needed to do
           2         my job.
           3              So she gave me a lot of different issues --
           4         gave them to me in a folder.
           5              THE COURT:  Were these both in there?
           6              THE WITNESS:  Mmm, I believe both of these were
           7         at the time, yes.
           8              This -- this part down here on this particular
           9         document, it has been admitted into evidence, that
          10         particular part wasn't in it.  I just want to clear
          11         that up because that wasn't part of what I was
          12         given.
          13    BY MR. LIROT:
          14         Q    Well, Mr. Oliver, let me draw your attention to
          15    Exhibit 166.  You have seen this document before,
          16    "Cancellation of Fair Game."
          17              I'll read for the record.  It says:  "The practice
          18    of declaring people fair game will cease.  Fair game may not
          19    appear on any ethics order.  It causes bad public
          20    relations."
          21              The paragraph below -- the one-sentence paragraph
          22    says:  "This policy letter --" which I understand the
          23    abbreviation "PL" to stand for "-- does not cancel any
          24    policy on the treatment or handling of an SP."
          25              So what is your understanding of that?
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor --
           2    BY MR. LIROT:
           3         Q    Does the declaration still exist, and treatment
           4    and handling stay the same?
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  In essence, what he's asking him
           6         is to explain fair game.  And I think it's
           7         inappropriate.
           8              There is a long history between 1968 and --
           9         '67 -- or whatever the date is on that document he's
          10         looking at in front of him -- '68 I think it
          11         originally cancelled it -- and 2002, including
          12         Mr. Hubbard's affidavit which is in evidence in
          13         1976, the new policy that was, you know, further
          14         explained, and made it absolutely clear that fair
          15         game was -- had been long since gone and it was
          16         being misinterpreted in 1980.
          17              This man is not an expert, nor could he be
          18         qualified as one.  And he should not be talking
          19         about a policy that -- and his understanding of a
          20         policy -- that hasn't been in existence since 1968
          21         or '7, whatever the date was.
          22              THE COURT:  I think --
          23              MR. LIROT:  Well --
          24              THE COURT:  Go ahead.
          25              MR. LIROT:  We can explore that, Judge.
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    Let me ask you something.  In your
           3    responsibilities as an investigative arm of OSA, as part of
           4    that, you dealt with people that were declared SPs, is that
           5    true?
           6         A    Yes.  There were individuals that were declared
           7    that were targets or subjects of the investigative work that
           8    I did.
           9         Q    So part of what your responsibilities were that
          10    you dealt with, people that were labeled critics or enemies
          11    or suppressive persons, that was part of what OSA dealt
          12    with?
          13         A    That is part of what OSA dealt with.  That is what
          14    I dealt with when I was there.
          15         Q    In dealing with those people, regardless of what
          16    declaration was made or what label you put on them, was it
          17    part of OSA policies, in respect to your responsibilities,
          18    that they could be tricked, sued or lied to?
          19         A    From what I observed and from what I participated
          20    in, Mmm, there were -- there were things -- and I won't
          21    speak in specifics because the judge told me not to speak in
          22    specifics --
          23              THE COURT:  No, I don't mind you speaking in
          24         specifics.  I don't want a lot of -- once I learn
          25         this thing hits the Internet every night,
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           1         apparently, it bothers me a little bit that
           2         specifics -- if people are named -- that this --
           3         this -- you know, this could be painful to the
           4         Church, it could be painful to the individuals.
           5              So I guess what I'm saying, you can be
           6         specific.  But I don't want you to identify
           7         necessarily a person who may be affected by the fact
           8         this is going to be posted all over the Internet.  I
           9         don't mean to say you can't be specific.  I just
          10         would like not to have specific names --
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  Part of our objection, of
          12         course, was to the extent he was working on cases,
          13         which is what he testified these were.
          14              And that is no different than Mr. Dandar
          15         objecting to my being able to talk to Ray Emmons,
          16         his investigator, or any other member of his office,
          17         or Mr. Dandar being able to talk to somebody in my
          18         office.  I mean --
          19              THE COURT:  Are you asserting a privilege?
          20         What is it?
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, to the extent that he
          22         would discuss what he was doing with regard to a
          23         legal case, yes, if that is what he was doing.  And
          24         I think that is what he testified to, whenever it
          25         was, yesterday.  That is what they did.  They worked
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           1         on legal cases.
           2              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I think his testimony was
           3         that was only a component of his responsibility.
           4              THE COURT:  That is what I thought, too.
           5              MR. LIROT:  And my question so far -- I haven't
           6         asked him about any specific case, legal or
           7         otherwise.  I'm asking him about concepts --
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  You didn't hear me object.  The
           9         question was have you -- have you -- I think it was
          10         ever lied, sued or -- I forget the third one.
          11              THE WITNESS:  Tricked.
          12              MR. LIROT:  Tricked, sued, lied to or
          13         destroyed.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, that is a new category.
          15              MR. LIROT:  I was going to get to that one.
          16              THE COURT:  Sued?  This man probably never sued
          17         a soul in his life.
          18              You never sued anybody, have you?
          19              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor, I never sued
          20         anybody.
          21              THE COURT:  So that is out.
          22              What are you asking him, did he ever trick
          23         anybody?
          24              MR. LIROT:  I'm asking him about the OSA
          25         policies.  Obviously, Judge, our position here is
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           1         fair game -- maybe they peeled the label off the
           2         outside of the jar, but the contents remain the
           3         same.  And if you read this, it is two paragraphs,
           4         it says what it says.  It doesn't take an expert to
           5         take a look at this and say, "We're going to take
           6         the declaration away but as far as the policy on the
           7         treatment and handling, conduct that deals with SP,
           8         that doesn't change a bit."  And -- that doesn't
           9         change a bit.
          10              I'm asking Mr. Oliver, as a member of OSA,
          11         whether anybody told him, "Oh, we can't trick people
          12         anymore, and we're going to deprive people of
          13         property, but if we catch you, you're going to be
          14         punished."
          15              I just want to explore that area as far as his
          16         experience for the period of time that he worked
          17         with OSA.
          18              THE COURT:  Then I'll not let him get into
          19         specifics.  But I'll let him get into general.
          20              MR. LIROT:  Very good, Judge.  And I'll respect
          21         that directive.
          22    BY MR. LIROT:
          23         Q    While you were in OSA, do you know any
          24    Scientologist or member of OSA that was disciplined for
          25    depriving people of property?
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           1         A    Not to my knowledge.  No.
           2         Q    Do you know anybody that was disciplined because
           3    they injured somebody that was declared to be an enemy or
           4    suppressive person of Scientology?
           5         A    Not to my knowledge at all.
           6         Q    All right.  Was covert operations, and I guess
           7    trickery, and obviously lying, part of that covert -- were
           8    they ever disciplined?  Were you ever told that was
           9    something you couldn't do as a member of OSA?
          10         A    No.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection, your Honor -- excuse
          12         me, my objection --
          13              THE WITNESS:  Sorry.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  Covert operations -- we talked
          15         about this yesterday.  Mr. Lirot uses private
          16         investigators.  Mr. Dandar uses private
          17         investigators.  You did.  I did.
          18              So to ask a question like that, I mean, it is
          19         so -- it is so general.
          20              I mean, maybe the question is did you do
          21         anything illegal, Mr. Oliver?  That would be --
          22              THE COURT:  I think that some of that is fairly
          23         obvious.  As I said, if he was in a group that dealt
          24         with investigations and some of it was covert, it is
          25         not done in, necessarily, a truthful fashion.
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           1              MR. LIROT:  Understood, Judge.
           2              THE COURT:  All right.
           3              MR. LIROT:  Obviously, I don't want to be
           4         misperceived in the questioning.  I'm not concerned
           5         about legality.  I'm talking about the very concept
           6         of cancelling a policy that in practice has never
           7         been cancelled, from our perspective.  I understand
           8         there is a disagreement about this.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  What is that from
          10         our perspective?  I mean, the Church cancelled a
          11         policy.
          12              THE COURT:  Do you know what?
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry?
          14              THE COURT:  I read a declaration last night --
          15         I started to read it, and I read about halfway
          16         through it, of Mr. Miscavige.
          17              It is very obvious to me that this church has
          18         been fighting with this for a long time.  This is
          19         not the first time this came up.  So it is not clear
          20         as a bell.  Obviously, other judges have struggled
          21         with it.  And -- and obviously some judges have
          22         ruled that it is a cancelled policy, and apparently
          23         some have ruled it is not.
          24              I haven't ruled yet.  So, consequently -- I
          25         mean, I can understand you get all upset if you
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           1         want.  But it is not clear as a bell that fair game
           2         has been cancelled.  It apparently is something that
           3         goes on in every lawsuit.
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  No.  What goes on in every
           5         lawsuit is that we get accused of a policy that was
           6         cancelled in 1968.
           7              And -- and I don't believe that Mr. Oliver, and
           8         I don't believe that anyone in recent times, has
           9         been qualified to testify about fair game.
          10              MR. LIROT:  Well --
          11              THE COURT:  You know what?  I'll qualify him,
          12         if that is what it takes.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I'm not asking to you do
          14         that.
          15              THE COURT:  Mr. Oliver, were you permitted, as
          16         a member of OSA, to lie to a suppressive person?
          17              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          18              THE COURT:  Were you permitted as a suppressive
          19         person to trick -- I'm sorry, were you permitted to
          20         trick a suppressive person while you worked for OSA?
          21              THE WITNESS:  I was permitted to do things that
          22         involved trickery in order to obtain information
          23         from those individuals.
          24              THE COURT:  What years were those behaviors?
          25              THE WITNESS:  Between 1990 and '92 when I left.
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           1              THE COURT:  Were you permitted -- were you
           2         permitted to destroy a person?
           3              THE WITNESS:  Mmm, I was never given the
           4         assignment to destroy anyone.
           5              THE COURT:  All right.
           6              THE WITNESS:  I was given the assignment to
           7         help destroy an organization, though, that was -- an
           8         organization that was identified as being a
           9         suppressive organization, yes.  I was involved in
          10         the destruction of an organization.
          11              THE COURT:  So whether or not we call it fair
          12         game or whether we call it nothing, the fact of the
          13         matter is, is when you were dealing with
          14         investigative matters, you were permitted to trick
          15         an enemy and you were permitted to lie to an enemy?
          16              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          17              THE COURT:  Okay.  So I don't know that it
          18         matters what we call it.  As a matter of fact, we
          19         won't need to call it fair game, if the fair game
          20         policy has been cancelled.  And this doesn't
          21         surprise me, by the way.  I mean, intelligence deals
          22         with trickery and it deals with lies sometimes.
          23              MR. LIROT:  Well, Judge, I think it mistakes --
          24         it clearly says it doesn't cancel any policy.  And I
          25         keep hearing we've cancelled the policy.  That is
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           1         exactly the opposite of what the document says.
           2              It says the practice of declaring people fair
           3         game will cease.  That is the cancellation.  The
           4         sentence below that says this doesn't cancel any
           5         policy.
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  Well then --
           7              THE COURT:  We'll argue that at a later time.
           8              MR. LIROT:  Fair enough.
           9              THE COURT:  I simply wanted to get through this
          10         testimony that -- I don't care what the end result
          11         is as far as if you are trying to establish that as
          12         a member of OSA doing investigative work, it is all
          13         right to lie and trick the enemy, that that
          14         happened, no matter whether you call it -- whatever
          15         you call it.
          16              Those two documents will be admitted.
          17    BY MR. LIROT:
          18         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
          19    marked as Exhibits 167, 168 and 169 and ask if you can
          20    identify those for the Court.
          21              THE COURT:  The reason I brought up
          22         Mr. Miscavige's affidavit is because he goes into
          23         some great detail about this fair game and how
          24         you-all are constantly having to deal with it and
          25         what have you.  So I assumed I wasn't the first
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           1         judge --
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  No, I think that was the reason
           3         for Mr. Hubbard's affidavit in '76 or whenever it
           4         was.
           5              THE COURT:  Clearly Mr. Miscavige, in the
           6         lawsuit, whatever that affidavit was for, that was
           7         not the first time it was dealt with by the Church.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  That was the Wollersheim
           9         whatever.
          10              What are these exhibits?
          11              MR. LIROT:  167, 168 and 169.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    Can you identify Exhibit 167 for the Court,
          14    Mr. Oliver?
          15         A    Yes, I can.  It is an HCO policy letter dated
          16    March 1, 1965.  The title is "Justice.  Suppressive Acts,
          17    Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, the Fair Game
          18    Law."
          19         Q    If you turn to the fourth page of that particular
          20    exhibit --
          21              THE COURT:  Which one is it now?
          22              MR. LIROT:  This is 167, Judge.
          23    BY MR. LIROT:
          24         Q    I don't know if all copies are highlighted but
          25    down toward the bottom it says "Rights of a Suppressive
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           1    Person or Group."
           2              THE COURT:  That isn't even on my Page 4.
           3              MR. LIROT:  On 167?
           4              THE COURT:  Mine is on Page 3.  One, two,
           5         three.
           6              MR. LIROT:  Judge, you must be missing a page.
           7              THE COURT:  Okay.
           8              MR. LIROT:  I'll exchange --
           9              THE COURT:  Whoops, I'm sorry.  I just found --
          10         I found Page 2.  You are right.  The bottom of Page
          11         4.
          12         A    Yes.  It says:  "Rights of a suppressive person or
          13    group --"
          14              THE COURT:  By the way, those questions I asked
          15         him don't require expert testimony, you know.
          16              When you worked there, were you permitted to --
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  Fine.  I understand.
          18         A    "A truly suppressive person or group has no rights
          19    of any kind.  And actions taken against them are not
          20    punishable."
          21    BY MR. LIROT:
          22         Q    Do you know of any policy letter that cancelled
          23    this particular policy letter?
          24         A    Not to my knowledge.
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, you know, my objection is
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           1         that this policy letter, which was written in 1965,
           2         refers to fair game.  And we've just had, several
           3         years later, a -- a policy that cancels fair game.
           4         So -- so I make that objection for the record.
           5              THE COURT:  All right.
           6              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
           7         167 into evidence.
           8              THE COURT:  It will be received.
           9    BY MR. LIROT:
          10         Q    Mr. Oliver, can you identify Exhibit 168 to the
          11    Court?
          12         A    Yes, I can.  This is an article -- actually, a
          13    page from an article on Level 0 check sheet.  It is undated.
          14    And it talks in here about -- this is a reiteration of the
          15    same type of -- this particular paragraph is in other
          16    places, as well.  It is in another policy letter.  It's in
          17    another piece of information that is in the pack that I
          18    think is the next exhibit.  And it appears here.
          19              It's a repetition of things that have been pulled
          20    out of here and are used elsewhere, which is talking about
          21    the offense of anything being untenable, the only way to
          22    defend anything is to attack.
          23              This is reflected in other policies letters.  I
          24    can't quote you specific name or date of the policy letters
          25    but they have already been introduced in evidence earlier.
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           1    This is just another place where it appears.
           2              The statement of never be interested in --
           3    basically to never take an offensive position -- I mean
           4    never take defensive position, to always take an offensive
           5    position and to always attack and never have to defend.  You
           6    know, basically take the -- take the wind out of the sail of
           7    the enemy by attacking them so that they are on the defense
           8    and you are on the offense.  Very pro -- it is a very
           9    proactive stance.
          10              THE COURT:  Sounds like pretty good advice,
          11         doesn't it, if you are going to do an investigation?
          12              THE WITNESS:  Well, if -- you know, the way
          13         that I saw it work, if someone is making a criticism
          14         of the -- of the Scientology organization, instead
          15         of, you know, dealing with that criticism and trying
          16         to explain to the person how their criticism is
          17         unfounded, what the organization would do, what the
          18         Office of Special Affairs would do would be to find
          19         something on that individual and attack them,
          20         instead of replying to the original -- almost like
          21         if you filed a lawsuit against somebody, instead of
          22         addressing those issues, you -- you know, you come
          23         back with something else completely unrelated, it
          24         throws the other person off.  So instead of
          25         addressing the issue of why that person is saying
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           1         something critical, they just go off and find
           2         something about the individual, try to investigate
           3         them to get them on the defensive, not to address
           4         the issue raised in the first place because it may
           5         prove to be that the other -- that the individual
           6         attacking is correct.  And that is the last thing
           7         that Scientology would want to happen.
           8    BY MR. LIROT:
           9         Q    What about the OSA policies about their
          10    participation in lawsuits -- no specific lawsuit -- but I'm
          11    referring to Page 55 where it is highlighted about how the
          12    law can be used?
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, your Honor, mine isn't
          14         highlighted.  So I don't know what he's talking
          15         about.
          16              THE COURT:  Mine is highlighted, but I have
          17         seen this in the policy letter in evidence already.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry, mine is highlighted.
          19         A    It says:  "The law can be used very easily to
          20    harass.  And enough harassment on somebody who is simply on
          21    the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he's not authorized,
          22    will generally be sufficient to cause his professional
          23    decease, if possible, of course, ruin him utterly."
          24              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move 168
          25         into evidence.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  I do object to this.  I would
           2         like to know what it is from, the whole thing in
           3         context --
           4              THE COURT:  I tell you what.  I have problems
           5         with this for several reasons.
           6              Number one, I don't know what it is.  It says
           7         "Magazine articles on Level 0."  I don't know what
           8         Level 0 is.  It does say:  "Do not remove when --"
           9         and it has somebody, "Hubble, valuable document,"
          10         and it is really sort of just a page out of -- I
          11         mean Page 54 and 55.  I mean, Level 0, I don't know
          12         what Level 0 is.  Page 54 and 55 -- I mean, on these
          13         policy letters, I can see the whole policy letter.
          14         This is just two pages.
          15              So I have problems with this.  I'm not going to
          16         allow this in.
          17              MR. LIROT:  All right.
          18              THE COURT:  But as I said, I had seen this in a
          19         policy letter maybe.  But that is out.
          20    BY MR. LIROT:
          21         Q    Mr. Oliver, take a look at Exhibit 169 and
          22    identify that document for the Court.
          23         A    This is called -- this is out of Ability.  It
          24    says:  "The Scientologist, a manual on the dissemination of
          25    material."  And it says "Circa 1955, mid-March."
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           1         Q    Is this one of the documents you had to
           2    familiarize yourself with?  And is this part of your hat
           3    pack?
           4         A    Well, this was actually something that was given
           5    to me as part of the packet of information that was given to
           6    me by J.C. Pase in the DSA's Office in Miami.
           7              And on Page -- I guess Page 152, if you can read
           8    it, the exact same thing that was in that last exhibit is
           9    actually in here, as well.
          10         Q    And this was given to you and expressed to you to
          11    be familiar with as part of the dispatch of your
          12    responsibilities for OSA?
          13         A    Correct.  And the two paragraphs that I read
          14    before, which are also in here, they also appear in other
          15    policy letters that I believe have been entered into
          16    evidence, as well.  So it just shows that it is in more than
          17    just one place, it is a lot of different places that that
          18    point is reiterated.
          19              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
          20         169 into evidence.
          21              THE COURT:  It will be received.
          22    BY MR. LIROT:
          23         Q    As part of your training in Scientology and your
          24    requirement that you familiarize yourself with these
          25    policies, is it accepted or taught that a policy is valid
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           1    until there is actually a cancellation of that policy if it
           2    is one of L. Ron Hubbard's policies?
           3         A    Well, I joined the organization in 1986.  And
           4    Mr. Hubbard had died earlier, I believe, in that year.  And
           5    subsequent to that, any policies and anything that I have
           6    ever read in Scientology, the only individual that can
           7    cancel a policy in Scientology would be L. Ron Hubbard
           8    himself.
           9              There was a period of time in which some new
          10    issues came out that basically revised policy.  And it was
          11    told to us -- it was told to the staff members that this was
          12    work that Mr. Hubbard had written and hadn't been published
          13    yet, and it changed certain policies in the organization, it
          14    revised them and it showed the revisions, for example, in
          15    script in some cases for older policies, and for newer
          16    policies they just show -- after the date, there is a number
          17    that shows that the policy has been revised.  If it has been
          18    revised one, there is an "R."  And there are other sequences
          19    for things that come later.
          20              But the only person allowed to change anything in
          21    Scientology would be L. Ron Hubbard.  His word -- that was
          22    it.  No one can change anything.  And that point is hammered
          23    in every single course in Scientology.  The first policy
          24    letter is called KSW-1, which is Keeping Scientology
          25    Working.  And every course you do in Scientology, no matter
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           1    what, that policy letter is the first thing.
           2              And that is something that Hubbard wrote where he
           3    points out that in the past when, you know, he tried to get
           4    input from other people, it hasn't worked out for him, so he
           5    would be the only person that could write policy, change
           6    policy, and any deviation from policy is something that, you
           7    know, needed to be handled and hammered out of existence,
           8    you know, to quote his own words.
           9              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move 169
          10         into evidence.
          11              THE COURT:  It will be received.
          12              MR. LIROT:  All right.
          13    BY MR. LIROT:
          14         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
          15    marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 170 and ask if you can
          16    identify that for the Court.
          17         A    This is information -- full hat.  This is from the
          18    Guardian's Office.  This is dated 1974; 9 September, 1974.
          19    This is the intelligence course for the Guardian's Office.
          20         Q    Have you had a chance to review this document?
          21         A    Yes, I have.
          22         Q    And does this compare to the full hat or the hat
          23    for OSA when you were handed that particular -- what I'll
          24    call -- a checklist document when you were made part of OSA
          25    in the early '90s?
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           1         A    When I reviewed this document, I found many
           2    consistencies in that a lot of the policies in this document
           3    here appear in my check sheet in 1991.  Many of the policies
           4    are very similar.  I mean, they're exactly the same,
           5    actually.  They're located in different locations throughout
           6    the check sheet.
           7              However the policies that were in my pack that was
           8    printed in 1991 have the same information in many places
           9    that appear in this particular hat pack that was from the
          10    old Guardian's Office that was in 1974.
          11              THE COURT:  It was based on one of the first
          12         documents that we went over yesterday?
          13              THE WITNESS:  The check sheet, the original --
          14              THE COURT:  The check sheet?
          15              THE WITNESS:  The investigations officer hat
          16         pack?
          17              THE COURT:  Yes.
          18              THE WITNESS:  This would be the predecessor to
          19         that.
          20              THE COURT:  Okay.
          21              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I think that was Exhibit 143
          22         was the one that was compared to that one.
          23              Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 170 into
          24         evidence.
          25              THE COURT:  I'm going to receive it.
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           1         Obviously, he was not presented this.
           2              THE WITNESS:  No, I was not, your Honor.
           3              THE COURT:  However, I'm going to let this be
           4         admitted only from the standpoint of see whether
           5         what he's saying is accurate or not.
           6              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes, your Honor, I do want to
           7         point out, first of all, all GO policy orders were
           8         cancelled.
           9              Secondly, there is a forgery in this.  It has
          10         been disseminated numerous times.  It is called
          11         Intelligence Specialist Training Routine, TRL, in
          12         here.
          13              It's equivalent, your Honor, to the
          14         dissemination of something like the protocols of the
          15         elders of Zion --
          16              THE COURT:  What?
          17              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Protocols of the elders of
          18         Zion, a forgery used to defame the Jewish religion.
          19         It is even being done today.
          20              This is a forgery.  And we object to its
          21         admission.
          22              MR. LIROT:  Maybe counsel can identify what
          23         portions of it are forged.
          24              MR. LIEBERMAN:  The entire thing.  And it has
          25         been used in this way for years, your Honor.
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           1              THE COURT:  I'll tell you what.  I'm going to
           2         keep it out for now.  However, I think you're going
           3         to have to call somebody -- it would have some
           4         relevance -- the relevance it might have would be
           5         whether or not the Office of Special Affairs was, in
           6         essence -- as has been testified to by some folks --
           7         the same thing as the Guardian's Office.
           8              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Well, your Honor, this wasn't
           9         even the Guardian's Office.
          10              THE COURT:  Wait, I haven't finished.
          11              So there may be some relevance to this document
          12         to see if, in fact, what this witness says -- what
          13         this witness says is true.  However, clearly,
          14         obviously, if this is a forged document, it has no
          15         relevance at all.  But I just can't say it is a
          16         forged document because you tell me that.
          17              In other words, just put somebody on the stand.
          18         You have a man right there to say this is a forged
          19         document.  I'll take his word for it.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  But isn't it his responsibility
          21         to authenticate it?
          22              MR. LIEBERMAN:  He says this was from 1974.  He
          23         can't authenticate something he says was from 1974.
          24              THE COURT:  How did you get this?
          25              THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, your Honor?
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           1              THE COURT:  This is some document that was
           2         introduced in a court trial.
           3              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
           4              THE COURT:  Do you know where this came from?
           5              THE WITNESS:  From my understanding, it came
           6         from a court trial.
           7              THE COURT:  Did you get this when you were in
           8         Scientology?
           9              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.
          10              THE COURT:  So you did not -- I mean, you were
          11         not ever presented this?
          12              THE WITNESS:  When I was in Scientology?
          13              THE COURT:  Right.
          14              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.
          15              THE COURT:  This will not be received.
          16              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
          17              THE COURT:  I thought he said he got it and
          18         made some comparisons.  Now that I understand --
          19              MR. LIEBERMAN:  No, your Honor.  He got it from
          20         someplace.  But --
          21              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I'm sure we can get an
          22         original with an appropriate request for production.
          23         So I guess we can hand that out later.
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  Huh?
          25
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to present you with a
           3    document that we marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 171 and ask
           4    you if you can identify this for the Court.
           5         A    Yes.  This is an HCO ethics order.  It says,
           6    "Suppressive Person Declare."  It says "Frank Oliver."  And
           7    it is dated "16 November, 1992."
           8         Q    I guess this is what they give you after you have
           9    been identified as a person that no longer wants to be a
          10    member of Scientology?
          11         A    Well, when somebody has been identified as being a
          12    suppressive person.  In my particular case, I did no longer
          13    want to be a member of Scientology at that point.  Correct.
          14         Q    Well, what was the reason that -- I guess this
          15    document will speak for itself.  But for the record, can you
          16    explain what the issues were that were identified in this
          17    Suppressive Person Declare?
          18         A    Mmm, this was -- this was something I received
          19    last time I was in the Church of Scientology.  I had -- I
          20    had -- I had wanted to leave Scientology and wanted to do it
          21    the right way.  And I had gotten on a Leaving Staff Routing
          22    Form sometime prior to October of '92.
          23              And when I made that assertion to my senior,
          24    immediately it raised -- you know, raised eyebrows and
          25    created a big stir because of the fact I had been in the
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           1    Office of Special Affairs.
           2              And the first thing I was asked for were, you
           3    know, "Give me the keys to the building," basically because
           4    I had the keys to the organization, as well because of my
           5    position in the organization.  And I gladly turned over my
           6    keys.
           7              And I was told that in order to do the routing
           8    form, I had to come in and do what are called OWs.  OW --
           9              THE COURT:  Overt withholds.
          10              THE WITNESS:  You got it.
          11              MR. LIROT:  Pretty good.
          12              THE WITNESS:  You are getting good, Judge.
          13         A    So they made me come in and start writing OWs.
          14    And there was some documents that I had that were part of a
          15    project that I had worked on when I was in -- in the Office
          16    of Special Affairs.  And it took me a week from the time
          17    that I went, until the following time I showed up again, I
          18    was asked to bring those documents in, which I did bring in
          19    and is referenced to in this -- in this declare order.  The
          20    documents that I was asked to return I returned.
          21              Mmm, the final time I walked in, they just handed
          22    this thing to me.  I mean, I was never given a Committee of
          23    Evidence or any of the other normal justice procedures
          24    involved when someone goes to leave the organization.  They
          25    just basically, you know, said, "Here, good-bye."
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           1              And they delineate what they think are the reasons
           2    why they wanted to declare me.  And the big crime that,
           3    according to them, I had committed was I wanted to leave.
           4    That was my high crime, that I wanted to leave.  And they
           5    said I was making secret plans, and as stated here.
           6              However, there was no secret about it.  Everyone
           7    in the organization knew it.  They had me on the Leaving
           8    Staff Routing Form.  There was no secret behind me wanting
           9    to leave.  I said I wanted to leave, I didn't want to be
          10    part of it anymore, and that was it.
          11              But they chose to declare me and --
          12              THE COURT:  This was given to you?
          13              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
          14              THE COURT:  So this is certainly not a stolen
          15         document.
          16              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.  I don't have any
          17         stolen documents.
          18              THE COURT:  Well, this certainly isn't one if
          19         they gave you a copy of it.
          20              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, given it to me
          21         by Eric Tyler Arnet, who is the director of
          22         Investigative Reports of the Miami org.  His name is
          23         on the document, as well.
          24    BY MR. LIROT:
          25         Q    Well, I guess whether we call it fair game or not,
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           1    were the policies that you were asked to participate in as
           2    part of OSA part of the reason you wanted to leave
           3    Scientology?
           4         A    Yes.  I -- I started -- because of the fact that
           5    people in the Office of Special Affairs are basically the
           6    external facing unit, they're the ones on the front line,
           7    they're the ones taking all of the suppressive intake, if
           8    you will, all that suppressive activity they claim is
           9    suppressive out there, we're the ones on the front line and
          10    we're to keep that from disturbing or bothering the
          11    organization.
          12              So, because of that, we were exposed to a lot of
          13    information I was told by OSA was false and untrue.
          14    Anything critical of the organization was false and untrue,
          15    and that these people that we were investigating were
          16    criminals, and that they held people against their will, and
          17    they were kidnappers.  And that was the impetus that kept me
          18    in the organization as long as it kept me.
          19              When I finally started to see and realize these
          20    things being told to me were lies, they were fabrications,
          21    and I was involved in something I didn't want to be involved
          22    in anymore.
          23              THE COURT:  What things that were being told to
          24         you?
          25              THE WITNESS:  I was told, for example --
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           1              THE COURT:  No, you indicated that you were
           2         being told things, you were learning things from the
           3         outside, and you were being told they were lies.
           4              THE WITNESS:  I was being told -- for example,
           5         I was told that an individual -- I won't name him --
           6              THE COURT:  Wait.  Wait.  You were being told
           7         they were lies.  I take it this was by the OSA unit?
           8              THE WITNESS:  Right.
           9              THE COURT:  Now then, you said you then
          10         realized they were lies?
          11              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          12              THE COURT:  What were lies?  Which?
          13              THE WITNESS:  The things they were telling me
          14         about the outside individuals were lies.
          15              THE COURT:  Things that OSA was telling you
          16         were lies?
          17              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
          18              THE COURT:  All right.
          19              THE WITNESS:  I later discovered them to be
          20         lies, and even -- I found out even more things that
          21         I didn't know, outside, once I left Scientology.  I
          22         found out even more about it.
          23              But I didn't become vocal about it until years
          24         later.  I mean, it took me many years.  I -- I
          25         didn't express my -- Mmm -- my personal feelings
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           1         until many years later.
           2              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
           3         171 into evidence.
           4              THE COURT:  It will be received.
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
           7    marked as Exhibit 172 and ask if you can identify this for
           8    the Court.
           9         A    Yes, your Honor.  This is an executive directive
          10    dated 10 September, 1991.  It is suppressive persons and
          11    suppressive groups list.
          12         Q    I guess up in the upper left-hand corner -- this
          13    isn't confidential, it doesn't say non-remimeo, this goes to
          14    everybody, all EOs and --
          15         A    "EO" is ethics officers.  All orgs and missions.
          16    This is a Flag executive directive Number 2830.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, it only goes to
          18         ethics officers in the orgs and missions.  Mr. Lirot
          19         just said it went everywhere.  That is not true.  It
          20         went to one position.
          21              THE COURT:  All right.
          22         A    This was also given to me as part of the
          23    information in Scientology.  It was given to me by my senior
          24    directly.  She handed this to me and said, "You have to know
          25    who these people are because these are the people and
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           1    organizations, these are the other -- these are other
           2    churches that we have identified as suppressive.  These are
           3    other people we've identified, other groups that we consider
           4    to be suppressive."
           5              And these are basically -- basically, this is --
           6    this is a lot of work for an investigations officer who has
           7    these individuals in their vicinity or under their area.
           8              "These are the people that we keep tabs on.  And
           9    if they become active against the organization, these are
          10    the people that we investigate and go after."
          11    BY MR. LIROT:
          12         Q    Okay, so this breaks down --
          13              THE COURT:  Is this in alphabetical order?
          14              THE WITNESS:  It is in somewhat of order.  This
          15         is exactly the way it was give to me, your Honor.
          16              THE COURT:  Okay.
          17    BY MR. LIROT:
          18         Q    What -- I guess there are different types of SPs
          19    in this document.  What are those?
          20         A    Well, there are some people in here that are --
          21    well, everyone in here is an SP per the document.  And some
          22    people in here are either declared and some are actually
          23    expelled, which means they can never go back into
          24    Scientology, and some are groups identified as suppressive
          25    groups that could be -- that were subject to investigation
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           1    by the Office of Special Affairs.
           2              You know, "S," for example, is identified in here
           3    as an organization to be investigated as being a suppressive
           4    organization.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  I object because that is not
           6         what the document says.  The second sentence says:
           7         "It is for your use to safeguard the lines of your
           8         org or mission and to ensure that these individuals
           9         or members of these groups are not connected to or
          10         on the lines of your org or mission in any way."
          11         That is what it says.  It doesn't say investigate or
          12         anything like that.
          13    BY MR. LIROT:
          14         Q    Well, let me ask you this, Mr. Oliver.  I think
          15    your testimony yesterday was that different groups get
          16    different directives.
          17              Do ethics groups get all of the directives that
          18    OSA gets?
          19         A    No, they don't.  But OSA gets everything OSA
          20    wants.  Within the organization, there were orders -- there
          21    were orders that came down that would go to Ethics that we
          22    would see, that we would get a copy of in the Department of
          23    Special Affairs in Miami.
          24         Q    So what is the significance of this list to an OSA
          25    member, regardless of what impact it might have or what
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           1    directives would have been given to an ethics officer?
           2         A    Well, an ethics officer wouldn't -- it is directed
           3    at an ethics officer in the routing, so that, as
           4    Mr. Weinberg read into the record, if someone was connected
           5    to one of these organizations and it became an ethics matter
           6    for that person in the organization and they went to Ethics,
           7    the ethics officer would go look at this list.  That was his
           8    purpose for having this document.
           9              Our purposes were to have an identification of
          10    enemy groups, suppressive people and suppressive groups
          11    because these are the things directly related to the
          12    statistics of an investigations officer in the Department of
          13    Special Affairs in a Class IV org.
          14              These are -- if there were four -- if there is an
          15    S group -- I'll give you an example -- identified in here
          16    and there were four locations in Miami, let's say, then
          17    those four things appear on my stats every week until
          18    handled.  So if their name is on this list, of course how
          19    did I know there were four S groups?  I can look on this
          20    list and see there are four S groups and I know that they
          21    are part of -- they are part of my subjects I have to
          22    investigate.
          23         Q    So I guess based on the instructions given to you
          24    as a member of OSA, this is the list of different groups and
          25    different people that could be tricked, lied to or destroyed
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           1    as part of your responsibilities in OSA?
           2         A    That was -- it was my understanding --
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to the form, your
           4         Honor.
           5              THE COURT:  Sustained.
           6              What could happen -- well, let's just not go
           7         there.
           8              THE WITNESS:  Okay.
           9    BY MR. LIROT:
          10         Q    How do you pick up stats off this list?
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Asked and answered.
          12         He asked him yesterday about stats.
          13              THE COURT:  Right.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  Then he explained it.
          15              MR. LIROT:  Well -- I didn't mean to interrupt.
          16              THE COURT:  Do you get different kinds of
          17         points for this list?
          18              THE WITNESS:  You get different kind of
          19         points if -- for example, when this list was handed
          20         down, if there is something on this list not on your
          21         stats, you know, and it affects you, if there is
          22         something identified here that wouldn't be on the
          23         list -- the way it actually worked is we were the
          24         ones that identified these organizations in the
          25         different orgs at the different levels in
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           1         Scientology throughout OSA, and then they compiled a
           2         list from those things.
           3              So basically how it worked is the information
           4         that we were supplying up the lines was used to help
           5         compile this list.  As information flows upward they
           6         compiled it and it flowed all back down because I
           7         wouldn't know of something going on in Michigan, for
           8         example.  But on this list there may be a group or
           9         person from Michigan.  However, if somebody from
          10         Michigan happened to come into my area, I can look
          11         on the list and see their name and say, okay, these
          12         guys have been identified as an SP somewhere else.
          13         He may not have been on my stat that week --
          14              THE COURT:  What do you mean, your stat?
          15              THE WITNESS:  "Stat" is statistic.
          16              THE COURT:  No, I know that.  And I know you
          17         told us yesterday about stats are important and --
          18              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          19              THE COURT:  -- you need to make certain stats.
          20         And the more you make, the better.
          21              THE WITNESS:  Right.
          22              THE COURT:  What do you mean, there is a stat
          23         on this list?
          24              THE WITNESS:  There is not a stat on the list.
          25         The individuals -- for example, if there were five
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           1         individuals that were -- I determined to be
           2         suppressive and they were in the area in Miami, for
           3         example, where I was an investigations officer --
           4              THE COURT:  Okay.
           5              THE WITNESS:  -- those five peoples' names
           6         would be on the list.  That list would be five
           7         people.  And the stat might have -- like it would
           8         have a 0 at the top -- it would be an upside-down
           9         stat, a 0 at the top and, let's say, 10 at the
          10         bottom.  So if the stat is going up toward 0, that
          11         is a good thing, the stat is going up and the goal
          12         is to be 0, to have 0 suppressive people in your
          13         vicinity.
          14              So if a suppressive group or individual was on
          15         this list -- or -- or I compiled the information of
          16         five suppressive people, I would send the
          17         information up and it would appear on a list like
          18         this.
          19              However, if someone from another area, let's
          20         say John Smith, to make up a name, from California,
          21         moves to Miami, now I have to add John Smith to my
          22         stats as another person that is suppressive.  So I
          23         now have six suppressive people in my vicinity, so
          24         my stat goes down because there are more suppressive
          25         people in my area.  So as more suppressive people
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           1         get near or affect the organization, it is worse for
           2         the people in investigation than in OSA because that
           3         means they are not being effective in stopping the
           4         people.  So it is a bad thing.
           5              THE COURT:  Okay.
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    How do you -- for the sake of example, the
           8    Catholic Apostolic Church & Monastery is a stat for your
           9    org.  How do you get that removed as a suppressive person or
          10    get it off the list?
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  I object to this -- to this -- I
          12         object to the form, I object to this whole line.
          13         How do you get it removed?
          14              THE COURT:  I might object to what does it have
          15         to do with this case.  I mean, that is a question
          16         for you, Mr. Lirot.
          17              MR. LIROT:  Judge, again, this goes to the
          18         policies, practices and customs of OSA.
          19              THE COURT:  Well, it might be of some -- I
          20         mean, how do you get it off your list for the --
          21         whatever it is -- Catholic -- I mean, why don't you
          22         ask him how to get Bob Minton off the list?
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  I object to that particular
          24         question because he wasn't there.
          25              MR. LIROT:  Then I guess I'll just use an
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           1         individual on the list.
           2              THE COURT:  There you go.
           3    BY MR. LIROT:
           4         Q    Assuming that Bob Minton is on the list of
           5    suppressive persons, which I guess subsequent to
           6    Mr. Oliver's departure from OSA is probably the subject of
           7    judicial notice --
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me?
           9              THE COURT:  If an individual is on the list,
          10         how do you get them off the list?
          11              THE WITNESS:  The person is handled.
          12              THE COURT:  How do you handle it?
          13              THE WITNESS:  Let's say if there is an
          14         identified group on here, you get them shut down and
          15         wiped out of existence.
          16              THE COURT:  I'm not talking about a group.  I'm
          17         talking about an individual.
          18              THE WITNESS:  You get them to stop attacking
          19         the organization.  They move away -- like, for
          20         example, if John Smith were a suppressive in Miami,
          21         and enough was -- he was being investigated and it
          22         was upsetting or bothering him, and the guy moved to
          23         Canada, then he's off my list, he's no longer one of
          24         my stats, he becomes Canada Scientology problems.
          25         It wouldn't be a Miami Scientology problem, it would
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           1         be off my list.
           2              THE COURT:  On somebody else's list?
           3              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  If he continues to commit
           4         suppressive acts or identifies suppressive acts as
           5         Scientology identifies them against the
           6         organization.
           7              THE COURT:  So to get him to move, you might
           8         picket him?
           9              THE WITNESS:  I never -- I never picketed
          10         anyone.
          11              THE COURT:  What did you do to get somebody off
          12         the list?
          13              THE WITNESS:  We investigated the individual.
          14         Mmm, we followed the individual.  We did
          15         surveillance on the individual.  Mmm --
          16              THE COURT:  Did noisy investigation?
          17              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, I did noisy
          18         investigations.  I looked at people's credit reports
          19         and their personal phone bills.
          20              THE COURT:  The garbage?
          21              THE WITNESS:  Had investigators digging through
          22         their garbage to find any information on them we
          23         could garner to use in intelligence.
          24              THE COURT:  You use that frequent flier trick
          25         you told us about yesterday to find out when they
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           1         were coming to an airport?
           2              THE WITNESS:  Personally?
           3              THE COURT:  Yes.
           4              THE WITNESS:  No.  It was done in front of me
           5         so I could see how it was done.
           6              THE COURT:  Okay.  And the idea is to get them
           7         to either stop what they're doing or move so they're
           8         not your problem?
           9              THE WITNESS:  Well, that would have been at my
          10         level in the Miami org when I was in Miami, yes,
          11         that is what I did there.
          12              When I went to Los Angeles, I was involved in
          13         other things of higher magnitude.  I was involved in
          14         surveillance.  We were involved in calling --
          15         getting -- obtaining copy of someone's phone bill
          16         and calling the people on their phone bill to see
          17         who they were communicating with.
          18              Mmm, this is the part I have trouble with, your
          19         Honor.
          20              THE COURT:  How did you get the phone bill?
          21              THE WITNESS:  That was handed to me by
          22         Mr. Shaw.
          23              THE COURT:  What, the phone bill?
          24              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          25              THE COURT:  Then you were told to call these
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           1         people?
           2              THE WITNESS:  Mmm, I was given the phone -- I
           3         was given that and a credit record on an individual
           4         who I won't name.  And we were told to try and
           5         identify who these -- who this person had been
           6         calling based on a phone number list given.
           7              THE COURT:  With the phone numbers?
           8              THE WITNESS:  Correct.
           9              THE COURT:  Okay.  That is more relevant.
          10    BY MR. LIROT:
          11         Q    Well, would somebody like Mr. Dandar be an SP?
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, objection to the question,
          13         would somebody like Mr. Dandar be an SP.
          14              THE COURT:  Ask him if Mr. Dandar would be an
          15         SP.
          16         A    Yes, Mr. Dandar would be an SP.
          17              THE COURT:  Mr. Prince would be an SP?
          18              THE WITNESS:  Mr. Prince would be an SP.
          19         Ms. Greenway would be an SP.  I believe that lady in
          20         the back would be an SP.  Mr. Lirot --
          21              THE COURT:  I don't know this lady, who she is.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  I don't know who she is.
          23              THE COURT:  I don't know if she would or not.
          24              THE WITNESS:  We met before.
          25              I would be an SP.  Anyone that would have
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           1         anything adverse to Scientology would be an SP
           2         because they would be in some way impeding or
           3         inhibiting the expansion and growth of the
           4         organization and putting the beliefs, individuals,
           5         policies of Scientology in disrepute or to the
           6         scrutiny of the public.  That would be -- you would
           7         be considered an SP.
           8              THE COURT:  Me?  No.
           9              THE WITNESS:  You might be considered an SP,
          10         your Honor, deciding -- depending how you rule.
          11              THE COURT:  I doubt that, but --
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I don't even find
          13         this funny, to tell you the truth.  I don't think it
          14         is amusing.
          15              THE COURT:  Maybe you don't find it funny.  But
          16         I think it is interesting to know who is an SP in
          17         this courtroom and what might happen.  I don't think
          18         I'm an SP and I don't think I would be if I ruled in
          19         a certain way.
          20              I'll bet these critics would -- each and every
          21         one would tell me I probably could be on a list.
          22         You wouldn't find that funny.  They would say it was
          23         true.
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  I was talking about the comment
          25         about you I didn't find funny.
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           1              THE COURT:  Okay.  But people would differ on
           2         that is what I'm telling you.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  I imagine they might have
           4         some -- the people that are working against
           5         Scientology might have some views of me and Mr. Shaw
           6         and Mr. --
           7              THE COURT:  No question about that.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  -- Mr. Fugate.
           9              THE COURT:  And if they use the term SP, you
          10         would be one.  And Mr. Shaw would be one.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  I think --
          12              THE COURT:  Mr. Lieberman would be one.
          13         Mr. Fugate would be one.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  I think there would be a little
          15         more colorful language that would be used toward me.
          16              MR. LIROT:  I don't know of anybody doing the D
          17         line on those folks, though, Judge.  There is a big
          18         difference there.
          19              THE COURT:  What is a D line?
          20              THE WITNESS:  A D line, that is when you send
          21         an investigator to go into somebody's garbage.
          22              A C line is when you pull a credit report.  A D
          23         line is garbage.
          24    BY MR. LIROT:
          25         Q    If Mr. Dandar got disqualified off this case,
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           1    would that work up some stats?  Would that get him off the
           2    SP list?
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection, your Honor, to the
           4         form of the question.  Objection to the question.
           5         It just -- it is pure --
           6              THE COURT:  I'll allow it.  I don't think the
           7         form is objectionable because I think the answer is
           8         yes or no.  I don't know whether this witness is
           9         capable of answering that.
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  It is pure speculation on the
          11         part of this witness, first of all.
          12              THE COURT:  I don't know if it is or not.  Did
          13         you ever deal with any lawyers that were involved
          14         against Scientology?
          15              THE WITNESS:  Did I deal with them personally?
          16              THE COURT:  Yes.
          17              THE WITNESS:  No, I never dealt with them
          18         personally.  I have seen attorneys that were
          19         identified as SP because they were opposing counsel.
          20              THE COURT:  How did they get handled?  By that
          21         I mean what removed them from the list?
          22              THE WITNESS:  I don't know that they were
          23         removed?  They weren't removed from the list when I
          24         was there.
          25              THE COURT:  So you are incapable --
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           1              THE WITNESS:  How to get someone off?  I just
           2         have seen them on the list.  I haven't seen them get
           3         off.
           4              THE COURT:  He can't answer that.  He doesn't
           5         know the answer.  He never worked with lawyers.
           6              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
           7         172 into evidence.
           8              THE COURT:  It will be received.
           9              The Manual of Justice we already have, don't
          10         we?
          11              MR. DANDAR:  I believe so, yes.
          12              MR. SHAW:  Yes, we do.
          13              THE COURT:  I'm pretty sure we do.
          14              MR. LIROT:  If it is already in evidence,
          15         Judge, I'll just introduce it as being part of this
          16         packet, it is already identified.  And I'll move on.
          17              THE COURT:  It will be received as part of this
          18         packet again.  But I know it is in evidence.  So
          19         when you object to stolen documents, this is one
          20         that is in already.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  Again, it wasn't -- the
          22         objection wasn't to necessarily the particular
          23         policies.  It was the manner in which they were
          24         gotten.
          25              THE COURT:  I understand.
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
           3    marked as Exhibit 174 and ask if you can identify that for
           4    the Court.
           5         A    Yes, this is the -- this is the certificate,
           6    "Church of Scientology Qualifications Division, Department
           7    of Certification & Awards."  And it says, "Frank Oliver,
           8    Staff Status 2."  And it is dated 18 April, 1991.
           9         Q    Do you have a series of different commendations
          10    like this that you received from the Church?
          11         A    Mmm, this isn't -- a commendation would be not a
          12    correct description of this.  This is actually a certificate
          13    at the completion of a course called Staff Status 2, which
          14    is a permanent staff position.
          15              This -- there are different staff statuses.  When
          16    you first join staff, your status is 0, then Staff Status 1,
          17    then Staff Status 2.  When you get to Staff Status 2, you
          18    are considered a permanent staff member.  And I guess your
          19    pay is affected by what your particular staff status is.
          20    And as you do administrative or executive courses in
          21    Scientology, there are staff statuses above this.
          22              In most of the -- or in the particular
          23    organization that I was in, most of the staff were Staff
          24    Status 2, except for some senior executives that had done
          25    executive training called OEC FEBC.
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           1              THE COURT:  It must be late on Friday because,
           2         frankly, I'm getting to the point --
           3              MR. LIROT:  It is 4 o'clock on the dot, Judge.
           4              THE COURT:  It is that time of the day.  Go
           5         ahead, let's see if we can get through the
           6         documents.
           7              MR. LIROT:  Very well, Judge.
           8    BY MR. LIROT:
           9         Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to show you what we'll mark
          10    into evidence as 175.
          11              MR. LIROT:  I would like to move 174 into
          12         evidence.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  I have no problem with that,
          14         Judge.
          15              THE COURT:  All right.
          16    BY MR. LIROT:
          17         Q    Mr. Oliver, identify 175 for the Court, please.
          18         A    It is actually two pages.  These are copies of
          19    telexes that I received.
          20              The first one says --
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me, your Honor, this is
          22         clearly a document that should not have been
          23         removed.  This is with regard to a specific case.
          24              THE COURT:  Give me just a minute to read it.
          25              What is DSA again?
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           1              THE WITNESS:  Department of Special Affairs.
           2              THE COURT:  Okay, I remember now.  When
           3         something is written "Dear Sir," who is that, who is
           4         sir?
           5              THE WITNESS:  The person you are sending it to.
           6              THE COURT:  Well, tell me who that is.  Is that
           7         somebody within the OSA branch?
           8              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The officers in the Office
           9         of Special Affairs address themselves as sir when --
          10         you know, when they are sending messages back and
          11         forth.
          12              In this particular case this came to the DSA
          13         Miami -- it came, actually, to me, the second one.
          14         Is that the one you are looking at, the second page?
          15              THE COURT:  Right.
          16              THE WITNESS:  That one came to me from west
          17         Canada.  You put "Dear sir."  They refer to officers
          18         as sir whether they are male or female.  If it went
          19         to the DSA, in my particular org, she was a woman,
          20         it would still say "Dear sir."
          21              THE COURT:  Okay.
          22              THE WITNESS:  These were both to me directly.
          23    BY MR. LIROT:
          24         Q    What was the purpose in sending --
          25              THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  I'm reading this.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  My objection --
           2              MR. LIROT:  I'm sorry, Judge.
           3              THE COURT:  I need to decide whether this is
           4         privileged and it should not be admitted.
           5              It would appear to me this would be something
           6         that would be a confidential document, Counselor.
           7              MR. LIROT:  Well, I don't know that it is,
           8         Judge, and I would like to explore that with
           9         Mr. Oliver for a moment, if you'll indulge me just
          10         for a second.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, your Honor, I -- I have
          12         some real strong objections to this.  This is as if
          13         I went into Mr. --
          14              THE COURT:  I do, too, if it is confidential.
          15         He said he wanted to explore that.  I suppose it
          16         would be whether or not he was mailed this after he
          17         went home or it was somehow or another published
          18         outside the Church.
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  This is with regard to -- to
          20         litigation matters.
          21              THE COURT:  I agree.  He said he didn't think
          22         it was confidential.  He wanted to explore it.  So
          23         we have to see if there is some basis upon which it
          24         wouldn't become confidential.
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  And secondly, he had no
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           1         authorization from his post, when he left the
           2         Church, to take documents from -- documents like
           3         this from case files.  He had no authorization to do
           4         that.
           5              THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.
           6              MR. LIROT:  My question will focus on one
           7         sentence of the second page of this exhibit.  And it
           8         starts six lines up.  "We feel."
           9              Judge, I won't say anything specific for the
          10         record but I'll read this one sentence.  "We feel he
          11         may be planning on moving back to the U.S."
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I object to reading
          13         anything from this document.  He has no
          14         authorization to take this document, just as my
          15         employee couldn't take something from a file or --
          16         or yours, your Honor.
          17              THE COURT:  I'm trying to think of what this
          18         is, what the privilege is here.  I mean, this is the
          19         Church.  This is not an attorney.  Come on.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  No, these are people -- this is
          21         the client.  In other words, the Church is the
          22         client.  OSA Legal is the client that is dealing
          23         with lawyers.  I mean, the first one, you can see
          24         what the matter is.  And you have heard that --
          25              THE COURT:  I'm still trying to think of what
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           1         the privilege is.  We have privileges:  Priest
           2         penitent, accountant privileges, attorney-client
           3         privileges.  What is the privilege you are claiming?
           4         Husband-wife?  What is it?  Attorney-client?
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  It would be the attorney-client
           6         privilege.  But beyond that, Mr. Oliver signed a --
           7         signed a contract, when he was with -- with the
           8         Church of Scientology.
           9              And part of the agreement was:  "I agree to
          10         maintain the confidentiality of all communications,
          11         whether written or oral, all documents, all files,
          12         all mailing lists and all other material, collective
          13         material which may come into my knowledge or
          14         possession during my service as a staff member of
          15         the Church or any other Scientology organization.
          16              "In other words, without limiting the
          17         generality of the foregoing, I agree not to remove
          18         materials from the premises where I perform and not
          19         to disclose the contents or get copies of materials
          20         coming into my possession except in the ordinary
          21         course of performing as a staff member.
          22              "Upon conclusion of my service as a staff
          23         member, I agree to return all materials given to me
          24         in the course of my service and not to disclose any
          25         information to anyone without the prior written
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           1         consent of the Church of Scientology."
           2              THE COURT:  So obviously he violated that.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  He has.
           4              THE COURT:  Now, what is it then -- we have to
           5         come up with a privilege or -- that somehow or
           6         another if it is stolen and he has violated an
           7         agreement that it can't be used in court or
           8         something.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, how else can we protect
          10         ourselves?
          11              THE COURT:  I don't know.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  So that means that --
          13              THE COURT:  You can sue him.  I know that.
          14         Remember when this one fellow wanted to come in and
          15         he was violating some agreement, and I told him --
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, I do remember.
          17              THE COURT:  -- that you could sue him, but I
          18         wasn't going to keep him from testifying if he had
          19         relevant information?
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  I do.  But I also remember being
          21         accused -- my client being accused by Mr. Dandar of
          22         having gone into his office and taken -- remember --
          23         some file -- and that is what we filed a motion --
          24         saying we planted it in the FDLE offices.
          25              Well, it is no different than taking case files
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           1         out of the legal part of the Church of Scientology.
           2         What that office does, Mr. Oliver said, is work on
           3         legal cases.  They are the client.
           4              I mean, you -- I have no right to take Dell
           5         Liebreich's files.  Mr. Dandar has no right to -- to
           6         take my files.  And this man has no right to take
           7         our files on legal cases and then produce them in a
           8         lawsuit --
           9              THE COURT:  My question, is it a legal case?
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
          11              THE COURT:  Where there is a suppressive person
          12         out there, the Church of Scientology is
          13         investigating this person, is that a legal case?
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  Dr. Geertz, the first one, is a
          15         legal case.
          16              MR. LIROT:  We let that go.
          17              THE COURT:  I'm talking about the second one.
          18              MR. LIROT:  We never brought up the name,
          19         Judge.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me.  I'm not done.  I'm
          21         sorry.
          22              MR. LIROT:  Take your time.
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  What am I supposed to do?  I
          24         don't know.  I just see this document.  What, I have
          25         to go do research now to figure out from 1991
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           1         whether this document that was stolen from us is
           2         part of a legal case?
           3              It is certainly part of OSA Legal.  It says a
           4         case on the document.
           5              THE COURT:  I'm not sure if it is or not.  I
           6         hate to tell you this, Counselor, but this is rather
           7         unique.  This is a church -- a church investigating
           8         someone they call a suppressive person.  Sending a
           9         church member out to investigate.  I don't know if
          10         in the traditional sense that is a lawyer-client
          11         privilege or not.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  It can't --
          13              THE COURT:  In the state of Florida, we have a
          14         various number of privileges that we recognize.  The
          15         only one that would come close would have to be
          16         lawyer-client, or -- or -- or accountant or
          17         something.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  And Mr. Oliver said that they
          19         generally work through private investigators,
          20         lawyers and things like that.
          21              And in this particular document it says, "We
          22         are currently working on a very hot case here in
          23         Canada."  It says case in Canada.
          24              THE COURT:  Who is the client?
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, the client is the Church
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           1         of Scientology.
           2              THE COURT:  Then who is the lawyer?
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, how do I know?
           4              THE COURT:  There is -- usually a lawyer and
           5         client are two different people.  The lawyer is the
           6         Church and the client is the Church.
           7              I'll keep it out.  Quite frankly, I think it
           8         comes in.  I think your action is against him.  I
           9         don't think there is an attorney-client or priest
          10         penitent privilege here.  I think this is kind of an
          11         unusual thing.  I'm not saying there isn't.  And
          12         I'll give you a chance to research it.  But I think
          13         that you are just assuming, just as clear as a bell.
          14         And I'm telling you it is not.
          15              Research it.  And come back and supply me the
          16         answer.  For now I'll keep it out.  But you'll have
          17         to find me a privilege or something that says that
          18         when someone leaves a corporation -- I assume he was
          19         working for a corporation -- and steals something
          20         from it, it can't then be used in a court case.  And
          21         that maybe the law, too.
          22              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, the case of --
          23              THE COURT:  I don't want to hear a case
          24         tonight.  I will keep it out tonight.  Find me some
          25         law that says that it can't be used and I won't let
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           1         you use it.  That gives you a chance to do research,
           2         as well.
           3              MR. LIROT:  Fair enough.
           4              THE COURT:  And then we'll litigate that.
           5         Okay?
           6              MR. LIROT:  Judge, 20-second response.
           7              THE COURT:  I'm used to having two different
           8         parties, a lawyer and a party.  Here we have the
           9         same party.
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  I guess we don't really know
          11         because -- I don't know, when he says a hot case in
          12         Canada, I assume there is a lawyer in Canada and a
          13         client in Canada, and that the lawyer in Canada
          14         wants the client in Canada to get help from a client
          15         in Miami with regard to a hot case in Canada.
          16              THE COURT:  It could be.  Maybe you need a
          17         little more time --
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  Obviously, I don't even know
          19         what it is.
          20              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I don't think every person
          21         listed on Exhibit 172 represents pending litigation.
          22         And I think Mr. Oliver's testimony was that his
          23         responsibilities went to SPs, not just pending
          24         litigation.
          25              THE COURT:  Well, I don't know what this is.
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           1         I'll give you permission to speak with him over the
           2         weekend about what this is.
           3              MR. LIROT:  All right.
           4              THE COURT:  What this was, as best he
           5         remembers.  So you can go research it.  Go look and
           6         see, as best you can, and research it.  And whatever
           7         it is --
           8              MR. LIROT:  Well --
           9              THE COURT:  -- we'll have to deal with it.  It
          10         isn't that big a deal, anyway, to tell you the
          11         truth.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, what is a big deal to
          13         us --
          14              THE COURT:  Don't misunderstand.  I'm talking
          15         about to Mr. Lirot.  Not to you.
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.
          17              MR. LIROT:  Understood.
          18              THE COURT:  If you were going to read -- you
          19         know, I just don't know it is that big a deal.  But
          20         research it.  I'm not letting it in right now mostly
          21         because if I let it in, it becomes public record, it
          22         might hit the Internet by the weekend.
          23              MR. DANDAR:  Not from the plaintiff.
          24              THE COURT:  Well, you know what, one side or
          25         another put it on the Internet.  There is a
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           1         50 percent chance it came from you, you know.  You
           2         said you didn't.  Guess what?  They said they
           3         didn't.  Somebody is lying to me.  Right?
           4              MR. DANDAR:  That's right.
           5              THE COURT:  All right.  So there is a
           6         50 percent chance, Mr. Dandar, that you are lying.
           7              So all I can do is sit up here and know that
           8         there are two people that are getting a disk, you --
           9         you personally, and somebody over there, Mr. -- who
          10         is getting it?
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  Us.
          12              THE COURT:  Mr. Moxon.
          13              MR. MOXON:  I am.  I can guarantee we are not
          14         putting it on.
          15              THE COURT:  Well, you know what, the deal would
          16         be perhaps you put it on the Internet to make it
          17         look like he's putting it on the Internet.
          18              MR. MOXON:  We didn't, your Honor.
          19              THE COURT:  Of course you say you didn't.  But,
          20         look, he said he didn't either.  Guess what, there
          21         are only two of them.  Somebody releases this every
          22         day to the Internet.
          23              MR. MOXON:  I just want to point out one thing,
          24         Mr. Dandar asserted a privilege not to tell us who
          25         he gave it to.  So I don't know how he can assert a
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           1         privilege and say "I didn't do it."  But where does
           2         this privilege come up?
           3              THE COURT:  Well, he said he didn't do it.
           4              Who do you release these things to?  Who do you
           5         give them to?
           6              MR. DANDAR:  People who work for me.
           7              THE COURT:  Do they put them on the Internet?
           8              MR. DANDAR:  No way.  They swore they would
           9         never put it on the Internet by what they tell me.
          10              THE COURT:  And I'm sure you believe whoever it
          11         is that is using them that they don't.  But I'm
          12         telling you somebody told me.  I have not seen them
          13         yet because I don't go on these Internet sites.
          14         Somebody tells me they are on the Internet every
          15         day.  Somebody is lying to me.  As I sit here in
          16         this courtroom, as I sit here trying to figure out
          17         who is lying, somebody, as I'm looking at you all,
          18         is lying.  I haven't a clue who it is.
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  The last witness said she saw
          20         them on the Internet.
          21              THE COURT:  I know.  Well, yes.  And, besides
          22         that, you-all told me they were on the Internet.  So
          23         I don't disbelieve you.  I'll just saying I'm
          24         reluctant to go to the Internet, quite frankly,
          25         because I'm afraid there is material on there that,
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           1         if I saw it, could bias me.  Frankly, I don't think
           2         there is anything on that alt.religion.scientology
           3         that could bias me, but I just don't go there.  I
           4         have got plenty to read in court without going
           5         reading on the Internet.  But I believe it is there.
           6              Which tells me that unless my court reporter --
           7         Madam Court Reporter, you are not putting this stuff
           8         on the Internet, are you?
           9              THE REPORTER:  No, ma'am.
          10              THE COURT:  Would you know how?
          11              THE REPORTER:  No.
          12              THE COURT:  I'm assuming she wouldn't or she
          13         would lose her job real fast.
          14              So if somebody is lying to me -- and it is just
          15         terribly frustrating because all I ever get is "Not
          16         me, not me."  Well, somebody is doing it.  And I
          17         wish it would stop, although as I -- as I said
          18         before, I'm not going to make too much of a to-do
          19         about it because this is a public courtroom, and if
          20         there are people that have an interest and they
          21         can't come to the courtroom and they want to see
          22         what we're doing, I'm not ashamed of what we're
          23         doing.
          24              But I'm reluctant now -- see, I would normally
          25         just say this goes in and then I'll remove it.  Now
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           1         I'm a little reluctant, so I granted -- granted
           2         this.  But, I mean, by the time I let it in, people
           3         start reading from it, then it is too late.
           4              So I'm keeping it out for now.  You understand
           5         if you want it in, you better raise it again.
           6              MR. LIROT:  I will, Judge.
           7              THE COURT:  You bring it up, with some law.
           8         And, obviously, they are raising a privilege, they
           9         are saying this is clearly a document that was taken
          10         that he had no right to take, number one.
          11              Number two, that it somehow is a -- well, it
          12         would be confidential.  But the question now is now
          13         that I have it, is there something that keeps it
          14         out, either a privilege or the fact it may have been
          15         a stolen document?
          16              Did you steal this?
          17              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.
          18              THE COURT:  How did you get it?
          19              THE WITNESS:  It was given to me.
          20              THE COURT:  By whom?
          21              THE WITNESS:  Mmm, it went from the telex
          22         operator, to my senior, Tracy Pase, then it was put
          23         in my "In" box.
          24              THE COURT:  So you got it at the Church?  I
          25         mean you got it while working for the Church?
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           1              THE WITNESS:  Yes, I got it in my office, yes.
           2              THE COURT:  Well, when you left the Church, did
           3         you take it with you?
           4              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.  In fact, that
           5         document was found -- Mmm -- approximately five
           6         years after I left the Church.
           7              THE COURT:  Where -- where did it become found?
           8         In your house?  Or what?
           9              THE WITNESS:  I had moved, your Honor, and I
          10         had documents that had been given to me that were
          11         just given to me.  They said, "Here, this is yours."
          12              THE COURT:  Who gave them to you?
          13              THE WITNESS:  Tracy Pase.
          14              THE COURT:  Oh.  So Tracy just handed this over
          15         to you and said, "Here, you might want this in a few
          16         years"?
          17              THE WITNESS:  Well, it was in a file with my
          18         hat pack and issues that I had.
          19              THE COURT:  Well, I'm going to believe if she
          20         gave it to you, that it was in error.  I don't think
          21         she meant to give this to you.
          22              THE WITNESS:  Well, she gave it to me because
          23         it was addressed to me.  It says, "Invest Off., DSA
          24         Miami."
          25              THE COURT:  Listen here.  It may be Friday
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           1         afternoon.  It may be late.  There was no thought in
           2         my mind, and surely not in your mind, that whatever
           3         it was you were doing within the Church of
           4         Scientology, that they meant for you to keep this
           5         stuff when you left.
           6              THE WITNESS:  It was not intentional that I
           7         kept this, your Honor.
           8              THE COURT:  Fine.  Did you give it back after
           9         you found it?
          10              THE WITNESS:  Five years later?  No, your
          11         Honor.
          12              THE COURT:  All right.  So the deal is you sort
          13         of knew that you weren't to have this, if it was
          14         given to you it was a mistake.  Right?
          15              THE WITNESS:  No.  It was given to me as part
          16         of -- at the time, this was part of my job, what I
          17         was doing.  And it was in the same file with my hat
          18         pack.  It wasn't something I intentionally said,
          19         "Oh, I'm going to take this."  That was never the
          20         case, your Honor.
          21              THE COURT:  Did you hear what I said?  Please
          22         don't think of me as an idiot here, Mr. Oliver.
          23              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.
          24              THE COURT:  Because you would be making a huge
          25         mistake.
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           1              Fine.  You are saying you didn't steal it?
           2              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
           3              THE COURT:  When it showed up, you had to know
           4         that this wasn't something that the Church meant for
           5         you to have.  Right?
           6              THE WITNESS:  I really -- I saw a lot of this
           7         get thrown away.  After somebody read it, they would
           8         throw it away or tear it up.
           9              This was not a case file or anything.  This was
          10         something that was a piece of paper handed to me.
          11         This was not taken out of anyplace or anywhere.  I
          12         saw most of this stuff get read, shredded or thrown
          13         in the garbage.  It didn't have any importance to
          14         me.  So I --
          15              THE COURT:  Read, shred or thrown in the
          16         garbage?  The deal was most of these things that you
          17         got over a two-year period, when you were done with
          18         them you either shredded them, threw them in the
          19         garbage can or disposed of them, you didn't take
          20         them home and make a little file of them.  Right?
          21              THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.
          22              THE COURT:  All right.  So it would stand to
          23         reason that he knew he wasn't supposed to have
          24         these.  I don't care what he says.  So I'm not going
          25         to say he stole them --
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           1              MR. LIROT:  We'll research that.
           2              THE COURT:  They showed up.  But to my mind it
           3         is clear that this was a -- if he got it, he
           4         shouldn't have had it.  This would be something the
           5         Church would not have wanted somebody to take with
           6         them for the very reason we're dealing with here.
           7              Really, nobody should want this.  This stuff
           8         gets outside, this might be figured out what is
           9         going on, it could be harmful.  So you research
          10         that.
          11              MR. LIROT:  I understand the point, Judge.  And
          12         based on that, I won't push the issue.  But -- but
          13         Exhibit 176 pertains to that, as well.
          14              I'll give that to Mr. Oliver, and then we'll
          15         address that in the same context as the other two
          16         exhibits.
          17              THE COURT:  All right.  I'm writing "not in
          18         evidence for now," I'm writing.  And I'll count on
          19         you, if you want to get it in, you come in with some
          20         memo or some case or some something.  You-all better
          21         be ready for it, as well.
          22              MR. LIROT:  I will, Judge.
          23              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Well, I thought I heard him say
          24         he's not going to push it.  I don't know what he
          25         meant.
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           1              MR. LIROT:  Not today.  I'll research it.  All
           2         I said was Exhibit 176.
           3              THE COURT:  Okay.  This is another one of
           4         these, Number 176?
           5              MR. LIROT:  Right.  176 is legally what we
           6         discussed with the other two pages that I guess are
           7         175.  So the legal issues would be the same for that
           8         document, as well.
           9              THE COURT:  Let me look at it.  It sounds like
          10         some directive from a lawyer to an investigator.  It
          11         has case numbers.  I mean, if I were you -- what do
          12         the letters "DA" mean?
          13              THE WITNESS:  Dead agent.
          14              THE COURT:  Is that an abbreviation, or is that
          15         a person's name, the last line of this Number 176?
          16         "Reversal, DA."  Does that mean anything?
          17              THE WITNESS:  Dead agent.
          18              THE COURT:  Oh, okay.
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  Just so the record is even
          20         clearer, I think this one absolutely is clearly
          21         attorney-client -- leaving aside the fact that
          22         Mr. Oliver wasn't entitled to have it, but the
          23         plaintiff's lawyer shouldn't even be looking at
          24         documents that came out of legal files of the Church
          25         of Scientology, however it is that it came into
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           1         their possession.
           2              THE COURT:  You know what the problem is, is --
           3         I'm going to tell you something.  Frankly, you-all
           4         never should have had the communication of
           5         Mr. Dandar to his consultant.  But not only do you
           6         have it, you used it.
           7              This is that kind of case.  That is why I'm
           8         saying at this point I would agree with you.  You
           9         shouldn't have that.  They shouldn't have this.  You
          10         used it.  You got it in.  The question is does this
          11         get kept out.  It gets kept out if it is legal.
          12              MR. MOXON:  There was litigation with this
          13         Cynthia Kisser; in fact, there were more than 20
          14         pieces of litigation involving her over a period of
          15         years, including this time period.
          16              THE COURT:  All right, well, you-all research
          17         it over the weekend.  Okay?
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, the instruction --
          19         or the -- the statement that you made to Mr. Lirot
          20         that he could talk to Mr. Oliver is just limited to
          21         this one issue?
          22              THE COURT:  Yes, it is limited to these things
          23         that -- so he can tell Mr. -- so that he can do
          24         whatever research he needs to do.  You-all have
          25         files.  Presumably you can dig up and find out what
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           1         they are.  He would have no way of knowing, without
           2         asking him.  And I'm trying just to narrow the
           3         research.
           4              Okay, here we go.  You know, you said you
           5         needed to leave, Counselor, by 4 o'clock.
           6              MR. LIEBERMAN:  I'm making a later flight, your
           7         Honor.
           8              THE COURT:  Today?
           9              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
          10              THE COURT:  Okay.  What time?
          11              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Six or eight, whatever.  There
          12         are different planes.  Thank you, though, for
          13         reminding me.
          14              THE COURT:  Yes, well, I thought you were
          15         running a little late.
          16              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  If he was going by four it would
          18         be by bus.
          19    BY MR. LIROT:
          20         Q    Mr. Oliver, I handed you a document we marked as
          21    Exhibit 177.  Can you identify that?  It is a composite
          22    exhibit.
          23         A    Yes, this is a newsletter I received --
          24              THE COURT:  You know what, all I'll do is
          25         finish going through these documents, so you can
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           1         probably leave if you want.
           2              This is a news release from some Time Magazine,
           3         "Introduction to Scientology Ethics."  I think I
           4         already have that whole book.  And --
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  See, we don't have the
           6         documents.  We don't know.  But if there is some
           7         legal issue that comes up, I would sort of like
           8         Mr. Lieberman to be here.
           9              THE COURT:  I tell you what I'll do, you take a
          10         look at these five documents.  That is as far as I'm
          11         going to go today.  I don't think these are going to
          12         be quite the same type of legal issues.  There may
          13         be other issues.  But once these either get in or
          14         don't get in, I'm going to quit for the day, because
          15         I'm tired.
          16              MR. LIROT:  Understood, Judge.
          17              THE COURT:  It has been a long week.
          18              MR. LIEBERMAN:  I don't know what the purpose
          19         of the Time Magazine article is.
          20              THE COURT:  I don't, either.  But it surely
          21         isn't a First Amendment issue, I wanted to tell you.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  You mean I have to come up with
          23         the legal argument?
          24              MR. LIEBERMAN:  It is probably some sort of --
          25         what is the word -- hearsay or --
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           1              THE COURT:  It is something.
           2              MR. LIEBERMAN:  -- something.  Congress passed
           3         a new law regarding hearsay?  Is that in the First
           4         Amendment --
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    Mr. Oliver, identify Exhibit 177 for the Court.
           7         A    It's the -- these -- this is a composite of
           8    different things that I received while I was a member of the
           9    Cult Awareness Network.  This is --
          10              THE COURT:  I'm sorry, while you were a member
          11         of the --
          12         A    Cult Awareness Network.  When I was still in the
          13    Church of Scientology, I was a member of the Cult Awareness
          14    Network, as well.
          15    BY MR. LIROT:
          16         Q    All right.
          17         A    This is a letter from -- the first one, this is
          18    basically information that is sent to members of the Cult
          19    Awareness Network about their activities and what is going
          20    on.  The Cult Awareness Network --
          21              THE COURT:  What number are we on here?
          22              MR. LIROT:  177.
          23              THE COURT:  I jumped ahead here two.  I'm on
          24         179.  177 and --
          25              THE WITNESS:  It looks like this, your Honor.
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           1              THE COURT:  Oh.  Okay.  I have got them.  Go
           2         ahead.
           3         A    Okay.  This is -- this is -- this is a newsletter
           4    they send out, and along with some additional letters sent
           5    to members of the Cult Awareness Network.
           6              The Cult Awareness Network was an organization
           7    that I was a member of to -- at the time, it was an
           8    organization that provided information on dangerous cults in
           9    the country.  And at the time they were being subjected to
          10    extraordinary pressure and tactics by --
          11              THE COURT:  You were an infiltrator, is that
          12         it?
          13              THE WITNESS:  In a small way, yes.
          14              THE COURT:  This was documents you got from
          15         them?
          16              THE WITNESS:  No, something I got directly
          17         being a member, sent directly to my home, as being
          18         in the Cult Awareness Network.  It's a news flier.
          19              This is a news release.  And these are letters
          20         sent to all of the members.  And this talks about
          21         their battles and what they were dealing with having
          22         to do with the harassment from the Church of
          23         Scientology.
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  Then I would object to this one
          25         as being utter hearsay.
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           1              THE COURT:  Sure seems like it.
           2              MR. LIROT:  I was going to ask him about his
           3         participation in OSA and their dealings with the
           4         Cult Awareness Network.
           5              THE COURT:  Okay.  Do you agree that this can't
           6         come into evidence?
           7              MR. LIROT:  No, Judge.  I think it can come
           8         into evidence for the purpose that he was
           9         infiltrating this group and signed up, not as a
          10         sincere member of the Cult Awareness Network, but as
          11         a member of OSA with the assignment to lie, trick or
          12         destroy the Cult Awareness Network.
          13              THE COURT:  I don't know if that is true or
          14         not.  He hasn't testified to that.
          15              This is hearsay.  It doesn't come in, I don't
          16         think.
          17              Tell us what you did with this Cult Awareness
          18         Network, as a member of OSA.
          19              THE WITNESS:  In the summer of 1991 I was asked
          20         to go -- as a member of the Office of Special
          21         Affairs, I was asked to go to Los Angeles to
          22         participate in the formation of the CAN unit, CAN
          23         being abbreviation for the Cult Awareness Network.
          24              The stated goal was CAN had been identified as
          25         an SP organization that was causing Scientology
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           1         considerable amount of problems.  Therefore, it had
           2         to be destroyed.
           3              I went --
           4              THE COURT:  Is that the word they use,
           5         "destroyed"?
           6              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes.
           7         A    I -- I went to Los Angeles.  And while there, I
           8    participated in activities of investigation on members of
           9    the Cult Awareness Network, as well as surveillance of
          10    people that were affiliated with the Cult Awareness Network,
          11    former members of Scientology and individuals that were
          12    deemed to be suppressive by the Office of Special Affairs.
          13              It was in Los Angeles where I first met Mr. Ben
          14    Shaw, Mr. Moxon, Joe Neal O'Rielly (phonetic) and other
          15    members of the Office of Special Affairs, Toni Chrambanis,
          16    the same name I said the other day.
          17              These were individuals that were higher up than --
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection, your Honor.  You
          19         asked him what did he do.  And now he's going into a
          20         narrative of all of the people that he met out
          21         there.  You asked him what he did and he explained
          22         it.  So --
          23              THE COURT:  Well, I think all he did was
          24         explain how he got to Los Angeles.
          25              What did you do then?
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           1              THE WITNESS:  When I arrived in Los Angeles I
           2         was taken to the Cedars complex called the PAC,
           3         P-A-C, base.  There I was shown where I was going to
           4         sleep, and I was to work in the Office of Special
           5         Affairs in establishing the CAN unit, which had an
           6         investigation side and a public relations side.
           7              And there I was given assignments to
           8         investigate individuals targeted by Scientology as
           9         suppressives, and the stated goal was to complete
          10         the destruction of CAN.
          11              THE COURT:  What did you do?
          12              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Mmm, I -- I -- as I
          13         mentioned earlier, I was given a credit report and
          14         phone numbers on individuals.
          15              THE COURT:  I really don't want to get into all
          16         of this until Monday.  Somehow or another you think
          17         this comes into evidence how?  Just to verify the
          18         fact that you got this in the mail?
          19              MR. LIROT:  And to show --
          20              THE COURT:  Which shows there is some validity
          21         to what he's saying, that he was -- did you
          22         infiltrate this organization?
          23              THE WITNESS:  By becoming a member and
          24         receiving information from it, yes.
          25              THE COURT:  Did you do this at the request of
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           1         OSA in California?
           2              THE WITNESS:  Actually, at the request -- it
           3         had come down the line.  It was told to my senior,
           4         Tracy Pase, who then told me, "You need to join CAN
           5         and get information."
           6              I paid for it out of my pocket.  They didn't
           7         give me money for it.  So this is something they
           8         said, "If you join CAN, you get some information,
           9         that would be a good thing to help us."
          10              So I joined CAN and I started getting this
          11         information and reading.  I was told it was all
          12         lies.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, it is just a
          14         mailing -- this is the public information that CAN
          15         was putting out.  CAN was obviously in litigation
          16         with and -- you know, I don't think it is
          17         relevant -- litigation with Scientology.  They had
          18         nasty things to say about Scientology and
          19         Scientology wasn't too happy with CAN.  This is just
          20         their hearsay, whatever criticism of --
          21              THE COURT:  I'll agree with you and I don't
          22         think it is factual and I don't think it is admitted
          23         for the truth.
          24              I do think that if he's indicating that he did
          25         some work for this organization and that somehow he
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           1         infiltrated it and he's telling us he got this
           2         information as a member --
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  I think what he said, he got on
           4         the mailing list and they sent him what they send to
           5         everybody which they circulated in the public.  They
           6         were very open about their criticism of Scientology.
           7         That is all this is.  I mean, if you read it --
           8              THE COURT:  Okay.  I'm going to read it.  So
           9         I'm going to let it in but not for any purpose of
          10         truth.
          11              MR. LIROT:  Understood, Judge.
          12              Judge, would you like to wait until Monday for
          13         the explanation of his participation?
          14              THE COURT:  Yes.  I want to know whether we can
          15         get this in or not get it in.  And on Monday he can
          16         explain.  As I said, I'm tired.  I'm getting
          17         crankier and crankier.
          18              MR. LIROT:  Do you want to stop here?
          19              THE COURT:  We'll stop here at this 177 if what
          20         you want to do is have him discuss this now.
          21              MR. LIROT:  I think the CAN discussion is
          22         probably going to be extensive.
          23              THE COURT:  All right, we're in recess until
          24         Monday at 9 o'clock.
          25              (WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 4:45 p.m.)
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           1                      REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
           2
           3    STATE OF FLORIDA         )
           4    COUNTY OF PINELLAS       )
           5              I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
                certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
           6    report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
                a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
           7
                          I further certify that I am not a relative,
           8    employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
                am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
           9    attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
                financially interested in the action.
          10
          11              DATED this 12th day of July, 2002.
          12
          13
          14                              ______________________________
                                              LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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