3                      CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
     DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
 5   Representative of the ESTATE OF
 7             Plaintiff,
 8   vs.                                     VOLUME 3
     and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
14   PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                         Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
                         Testimony of Frank Oliver.
     DATE:               July 15, 2002.
     PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
18                       St. Petersburg, Florida.
19   BEFORE:             Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer,
                         Circuit Judge.
     REPORTED BY:        Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR,
21                       Notary Public,
                         State of Florida at large.
 3   5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
     Tampa, FL 33602
 4   Attorney for Plaintiff.
 6   112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
     Tampa, FL 33602-4108
 7   Attorney for Plaintiff.
 9   1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
     Clearwater, FL 33755
10   Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
     MR. LEE FUGATE and
13   101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
     Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14   Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
     740 Broadway at Astor Place
17   New York, NY 10003-9518
     Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18   Organization.
 2                                                  PAGE   LINE
 3   Recess                                         327      9
     CROSS               Mr. Weinberg               342     15
 4   Recess                                         396     21
 1              (The proceedings resumed at 9:01 a.m.)
 2             THE COURT:  Good morning.
 3             I need a little help on these videos that I
 4        reviewed yesterday.  Some of these people, I don't
 5        know if they're witnesses or not.  So I started to
 6        draw an order and realized that I needed some help.
 7             Let's see.  Gerry Armstrong.
 8             MR. MOXON:  Yes.  He was -- he was deposed by
 9        Mr. Dandar early in the case as a purported expert
10        on Scientology, and information's been used about
11        him.  He's been part of LMT, on the board of LMT.
12             THE COURT:  Didn't I turn over part of his
13        interview already?
14             MR. MOXON:  In fact, they did.  The first thing
15        they did, when the -- when the initial excerpts of
16        some depositions or some -- some interviews were
17        produced by LMT back in 2000.  Gerry Armstrong was
18        one of the three people for which they produced an
19        excerpt.  So he was identified by a witness by --
20             THE COURT:  My question to you, didn't I
21        already release his interview?  All I've got here is
22        the last part of it.
23             MR. MOXON:  I didn't see anything that was
24        released recently.  The last document that I saw
25        from him was several years ago.
 1             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, then I don't have
 2        anything but this final part of it.
 3             MR. DANDAR:  The interesting part is,
 4        Mr. Armstrong refused to come back the third time to
 5        continue his cross examination, and therefore we
 6        withdrew him as a witness.  So he's no longer a
 7        witness for either side.  So I don't --
 8             You know, doesn't matter to us whether --
 9             THE COURT:  Okay.  I'm going to have to check
10        and see what I did on the first part of his
11        interview.  The second part was a -- of this one
12        tape was a telephone conference with Mr. Dandar and
13        a potential witness.  He has not been listed as a
14        witness.  He has nothing to do with this case, as
15        far as I can tell.  And that will not be released.
16             The next tape has a lot of unedited footage
17        from LMT, inside and outside.  Part of it's a -- a
18        picket, and that'll be released.  In this one,
19        there's witnesses -- there's people who aren't
20        witnesses, but it would be impossible to take them
21        out.  So I assume that this is --
22             This is part of the anniversary celebration of
23        the first year of operation.  It's mostly Bob Minton
24        and a lady by the name of Tory Bezazian.  Is she a
25        listed witness?
 1             MR. DANDAR:  No.
 2             MR. MOXON:  She's not a listed witness, but
 3        she's definitely going to -- is someone who's
 4        involved in the counterclaim issue.  She's been
 5        doing a lot of picketing on behalf of LMT.
 6             THE COURT:  There really isn't anything on her
 7        regarding this case.  That's pretty obvious.  It's
 8        just general picketing.  But I -- but I see people
 9        in there whose names I've never -- I've never heard.
10             Bob Peterson.
11             MR. MOXON:  He is a -- he's an LMT employee.
12        He was designated as one of LMT's corporate
13        representatives in the first LMT deposition.  His
14        deposition's been taken in this case and he's
15        provided information concerning conduct by
16        Mr. Prince, by Mr. Minton.  He is definitely a
17        potential witness.
18             THE COURT:  Well, are you going to call him?
19             MR. DANDAR:  No.
20             THE COURT:  Is he on your list?
21             MR. DANDAR:  No.  He's never --
22             THE COURT:  Are you going to call him?
23             MR. MOXON:  I don't know, your Honor.  It would
24        be for the counterclaim.
25             THE COURT:  Well, Gerry Armstrong -- you're not
 1        going to call -- anybody's not going to call,
 2        because he's in Canada.
 3             MR. MOXON:  We're not going to call him as a
 4        witness.  However, he -- he is a witness.  He's --
 5        he's someone who has knowledge of matters and we're
 6        using some of the information that he's provided.
 7        He's -- he's been a source of harassment against the
 8        church and on behalf of the plaintiff and on behalf
 9        of the -- for want of a better word, the
10        co-conspirators on the counterclaim.  And he was
11        designated by Mr. Dandar a long time ago.  That's
12        why I took his deposition.
13             THE COURT:  How about Ingrid Wagner?
14             MR. DANDAR:  She works at the LMT.  And she's
15        not my witness, and neither is Mr. Armstrong.  They
16        moved to strike Mr. Armstrong.  So I think they
17        should be bound by what they wanted.  They got it.
18        He's stricken and he's gone.
19             THE COURT:  How about --
20             MR. MOXON:  Your Honor --
21             THE COURT:  How about Dee Phillips?
22             MR. DANDAR:  That's Jesse Prince's fiancee.
23        She was a secretary for Mr. Merrett.
24             MR. MOXON:  She also obviously is an eyewitness
25        to events at LMT as to Mr. Prince, as to Mr. Minton,
 1        as to Ms. Brooks.
 2             THE COURT:  Greg and Debra Barnes.
 3             MR. DANDAR:  Former Scientologists.  They're
 4        not called by me as a witness.  They're not listed
 5        anywhere.
 6             THE COURT:  Are they LMT employees?
 7             MR. DANDAR:  No.
 8             THE COURT:  Now, the last tape that I --
 9             I'll make a decision on those people.
10             The last tape that I did were three tapes,
11        actually, and they were a cult -- let's see -- cult
12        workshop, I guess you would say; a workshop in
13        December of '99.  Looked like they were pretty much
14        talking to each other.  I didn't see very many
15        people there.  But nonetheless, these are statements
16        of witnesses.
17             No one is claiming Mr. Cazares is a witness.
18             MR. DANDAR:  No.
19             THE COURT:  He's not an LMT member?
20             MR. MOXON:  He's -- no.  He's not a witness.
21        He's someone who's been associated with LMT.
22             THE COURT:  Well, he's not on the board or
23        anything --
24             MR. MOXON:  Actually, he was.  He was a board
25        member.
 1             THE COURT:  Well, he's not a witness, so --
 2             The orders, as I recall, said these were
 3        witness statements that were to be released.
 4             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
 5             THE COURT:  Isn't that what the order said?
 6             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
 7             THE COURT:  Okay.  One of these is Ken Dandar
 8        talking about the Lisa McPherson case and talking
 9        about Jesse Prince.
10             I think, Mr. Dandar, that -- you know, I have
11        indicated to you, and I sincerely believe this:  I
12        do not know how the estate can defend the
13        counterclaim without your being a witness.  I think
14        you're going to have to be a witness.  I mean, the
15        allegation was that the complaint was brought for
16        purposes other than which it was intended; for
17        improper purposes.  I don't know how that claim can
18        be brought without your testifying.
19             Frankly, this is a speech given to (sic) you
20        out in public.
21             MR. DANDAR:  If it's a speech then it's not
22        protected.
23             THE COURT:  Steve Hassan.
24             MR. DANDAR:  He is a person who is -- wrote a
25        book about cults.  I don't think he's associated, on
 1        the board or as a member of LMT.  I could be wrong.
 2        I'm not sure.  But he's not a witness by anyone.
 3             THE COURT:  Okay.  Jeff Jacobsen?
 4             MR. MOXON:  Jeff Jacobsen's deposition was also
 5        taken.  He's not --
 6             I think he actually is listed on our witness
 7        list as a counterclaim witness.
 8             THE COURT:  He is?
 9             MR. MOXON:  Yes.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11             MR. DANDAR:  You've taken his deposition
12        already?
13             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.  His deposition was taken.
14             MR. DANDAR:  Oh.  I didn't know that.
15             I object to them trying to take a second
16        deposition, then, of Jeff Jacobson --
17             MR. WEINBERG:  We're not --
18             MR. DANDAR:  -- which you just signed the
19        papers for last week.  He now lives in Arizona.  So
20        he's already been deposed and I would object to a
21        second deposition of him.
22             THE COURT:  I didn't know he's been deposed
23        before.
24             MR. MOXON:  We're talking about videos?  That's
25        the video --
 1             THE COURT:  Yeah.  I did not know, when I
 2        signed that out-of-state commission, that he had
 3        been deposed.  If he's been deposed -- any witness
 4        who's been deposed once cannot be deposed again
 5        without my permission.  So you're going to have to
 6        tell me why you need to redepose him.
 7             MR. MOXON:  Because he's got all these other
 8        videos, your Honor.
 9             And in LMT, they had two people doing videos.
10        Jeff Jacobsen had a video camera in his hand
11        hundreds of times.  He took videos of all sorts of
12        things.  We got --
13             And as you know, the order required them to
14        produce the videos not only that they considered
15        were owned by LMT but also the videos that are of
16        their agents, of LMT's agents and employees.  And
17        we've got -- some of Mr. Bunker's were produced, of
18        course, you're going through now.  But
19        Mr. Jacobson's weren't produced.
20             I asked Mr. McGowan why there are no Jacobson
21        videos in here and he said Mr. Jacobson refused to
22        produce them.  He just -- he wouldn't produce them.
23        He's gone back to Arizona.
24             MR. DANDAR:  I think that's his personal --
25             MR. MOXON:  Now, we've -- obviously we want to
 1        get this further information, because there's been a
 2        lot of -- of very useful evidence that has come out
 3        of these videos of these witnesses.
 4             So that's -- that's --
 5             The purpose of the deposition is to get, one,
 6        the videos; and two, any documents that he may have.
 7        Because he also took a lot of documents back with
 8        him.
 9             THE COURT:  Then that should be a fairly short
10        deposition.  That should be a deposition subpoena
11        duces tecum; he ought to bring them with him and
12        turn them over.  So it should not be one of these
13        duplicate depositions where you go over and over
14        whatever has already been gone over.
15             MR. MOXON:  I agree.
16             MR. DANDAR:  But Judge, I would just add that
17        they had the -- they knew about Jeff Jacobsen taking
18        his personal videos.  They could -- when they
19        subpoenaed him and deposed him last time, they
20        should have asked for it then.  They didn't.
21             THE COURT:  Well, I'm going to let them do it
22        again --
23             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
24             THE COURT:  -- and ask for it.  There's been a
25        court order entered which has not been complied
 1        with.  So this will be another way to try to get
 2        what the court's already ordered.
 3             So Jeff Jacobsen, yes.
 4             Here's this Gerry Armstrong again.  And I'll
 5        have to decide on this.
 6             Peter Alexander testified here so that would be
 7        a yes.
 8             David Cecere, I saw on your witness list.
 9             MR. DANDAR:  Right.  But we're not calling him.
10             THE COURT:  Doesn't matter.  He's on your
11        witness list.
12             MR. DANDAR:  He's already been deposed.
13             THE COURT:  Just trying to decide who's a
14        witness and who's not so I can tell whose statements
15        I'm going to release.
16             That's all of the -- the other -- there's a
17        little footage of Ms. Brooks and her mother and I'll
18        go ahead and release that.  It's no big deal.
19             The -- I did not have the afternoon.  In other
20        words, I got a morning session at -- there was to be
21        an afternoon session but I don't know whether it
22        didn't happen; whether these have been released -- I
23        don't know what they are.  I didn't get them.
24             MR. WEINBERG:  Of what?  The cult --
25             THE COURT:  The cult --
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  There's been a number of them
 2        that are already --
 3             THE COURT:  You have them already?
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  -- released.
 5             Yes.
 6             THE COURT:  Okay.  This -- this thing that's a
 7        picket and toast and all that sort of stuff, I think
 8        I'm going to have to release that in its entirety.
 9        There's just too -- it's just too intertwined.  It
10        would be impossible to go through and edit out most
11        of the people.  There are people I've heard of.  So
12        I'm going to release that.
13             And Ken, you're there, as is Mr. Garko, as is
14        Mr. Merrett.
15             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine, Judge.
16             THE COURT:  That will help me do an order.
17        I've started it, but I just didn't have the data
18        that I needed.  So I'll get that order out today.
19             MR. MOXON:  Thank you, your Honor.
20             THE COURT:  Now, I have a copy of those videos
21        but I don't have two copies, and I don't -- I
22        obviously am incapable of editing them.  So what I'm
23        going to have to do is to give the order to
24        Mr. Keane --
25             I'll be honest with you, there's a few little
 1        things you all might can use.  There's not a lot.
 2        So you know, it's not as if you're going to be
 3        putting together all kinds of stuff -- I mean, it's
 4        more -- it's --
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  About how long does it take to
 6        look at --
 7             THE COURT:  Five hours is how long it takes.
 8             MR. MOXON:  Sorry, Judge.
 9             THE COURT:  It's a long time.
10             Now, it may not be five hours --
11             MR. WEINBERG:  It seemed like five hours.
12             THE COURT:  It seemed like five hours.
13             And I did listen to all the taped statements.
14        Some of them were about Moonies.  And as a matter of
15        fact, one of them I'm going to release, because he's
16        a potential witness, isn't about Lisa McPherson at
17        all; it's about the Moonie organization.  One of
18        them's about some outfit I never even heard of.
19        Couldn't even say it.  Bhagwan Shree --
20             MR. LIEBERMAN:  Rajneesh.
21             THE COURT:  That's it.
22             Madam Court Reporter, that's B-h-a-g-w-a-n,
23        S-h-r-e-e, R-a-j-n-e-e-s-h.
24             So I've learned some things about some other
25        organizations.
 1             So anyway -- as I said, I started my order.  I
 2        needed your help to finish it.  So I'll get that
 3        finished today.
 4             And what I'll do is tell Mr. Keane to have his
 5        videographer put this in some sort of order and then
 6        just make two copies, and you all can pay for --
 7        each pay for one.  If you don't want one, let me
 8        know.
 9             MR. DANDAR:  I don't want one.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.  You do.
11             MR. MOXON:  Yes, your Honor.
12             MR. DANDAR:  I'll wait to see what they're
13        going to use as evidence, and then I'm going to
14        request them to give me a copy.  Because otherwise
15        it's just a total waste of time and money.
16             THE COURT:  You know, it's up to you.  I don't
17        know how much it costs for a video.  Probably a
18        dollar and a half.
19             MR. DANDAR:  No.  Unfortunately, this
20        company -- his client, Mr. Keane's client -- I
21        believe that's what it is -- charging $45 an hour.
22        And it's not an hour video costs you 45 bucks; it's
23        an hour for them to sit down and do whatever they
24        do.  So an hour video may come out to be four or
25        five times $45 an hour.
 1             THE COURT:  I can understand it, quite frankly.
 2        It's tedious.  And it's tedious -- you have to take
 3        out, put in, take out.  And so I can understand it.
 4             Okay.  I'll get that out today.
 5             MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, we have a motion that
 6        we prepared over the weekend I'd like to give you.
 7        I served it on Mr. Dandar.
 8             THE COURT:  All right.
 9             MR. MOXON:  This was prepared over the weekend.
10        Because when Mr. Lirot left at the end of the day,
11        he indicated that Mr. Oliver was going to be
12        testifying about what he termed this Cult Awareness
13        Network unit that was -- was basically a -- an
14        office that was set up for the purpose of preparing
15        for litigation, in anticipation of litigation.  They
16        were doing investigations with respect to this Cult
17        Awareness Network and a number of the persons
18        involved in it.
19             And at that time there was -- there were a
20        number of disputes between the Cult Awareness
21        Network and the church and individual members.
22        There were threats of litigation.  And immediately
23        afterwards there indeed was a great deal of
24        litigation involving the church, church members and
25        some individuals who had businesses that were owned
 1        by Scientologists that were attacked by this Cult
 2        Awareness Network.
 3             And although what I've handed you looks pretty
 4        big, because it's got a lot of exhibits, the motion
 5        itself is not large.  If you want to take a look at
 6        it, if it's not too big a burden, that might be the
 7        most useful thing.
 8             THE COURT:  Okay.  It really is going to take
 9        me -- this thing looks like, at the very minimum, 13
10        or 14 pages.  It takes me some time to review that.
11             MR. MOXON:  I can summarize it for you.
12             Mr. Oliver has testified that he worked in a
13        position where he was getting trained as an
14        investigator.  And he did this for a few months in
15        Miami, and he testified that he was in Los Angeles
16        for several weeks in 1991, working in this -- what
17        he termed this Cult Awareness unit.
18             Now, I was out there at the time.  Our firm,
19        Bowles and Moxon, I had a primary for the church,
20        and other -- and other Scientologists.  We had other
21        clients as well, but that was our primary client.
22        And we spent a lot of time working with the church,
23        my partners and I, on matters concerning the Cult
24        Awareness Network.
25             The Cult Awareness Network essentially was --
 1        was a -- as it's termed, as an anticult or
 2        antireligious organization that was established in
 3        the early '70s.  And they had a -- they had a
 4        program or kind of a modus operandi of this thing
 5        called deprogramming.  I don't know if you've heard
 6        of it before --
 7             THE COURT:  I know what deprogramming is.
 8             MR. MOXON:  Okay.  Well, they did a lot of
 9        that, and a lot of their associates did it.  And a
10        lot of them were convicted and charged.  And some --
11        a number of Scientologists, back in the '70s and
12        '80s, were attacked by these deprogrammers.
13             I represented a man from a Pentecostal church,
14        a Christian church in Washington, against the Cult
15        Awareness Network, who had been kidnapped and held
16        against his will, and handcuffed, and held for five
17        days while they attempted to change his -- his
18        interpretation of the Bible, basically.  And in
19        fact, that went to trial, and there was a large
20        judgment against the Cult Awareness Network,
21        resulting in a several-million-dollar judgment, and
22        they eventually declared bankruptcy.
23             Mr. Oliver and some other people that are
24        associated with this whole anti-Scientology group
25        have asserted that the Cult Awareness Network was
 1        destroyed by Scientology arising out of this
 2        judgment against them.
 3             But there were over a dozen lawsuits brought by
 4        individual Scientologists, in conjunction with the
 5        church, in part, against these -- against the Cult
 6        Awareness Network.  And the Cult Awareness Network
 7        also filed some actions against the church.  And so
 8        there was obviously investigations that were being
 9        done through counsel -- specifically through
10        counsel -- to prepare for this litigation and
11        anticipated litigation in 1991.
12             Now, that's all that this office did.
13        Mr. Oliver said he only worked there three weeks.
14        And I guess he wants to testify about what he
15        allegedly did there; what he saw; what he heard;
16        what kind of investigations he may have perceived.
17             But that -- notwithstanding whatever spin he
18        might want to put on it, that is work product,
19        because the office was set up through counsel and
20        was set up for litigation purposes and nothing else,
21        and it resulted in litigation after Mr. Oliver left
22        just a few months later.  So as a matter of Florida
23        law, of course, since this was in anticipation of
24        litigation, it's per se work product.
25             THE COURT:  You're talking about testimony that
 1        you believe he was about to get into that's --
 2             MR. MOXON:  That's what Mr. Lirot announced he
 3        was going to get into.
 4             Now, there's another area of testimony that
 5        Mr. Oliver touched upon -- and some evidence came
 6        out of it on Friday -- concerning this Geertz case.
 7             When he was in Miami, prior to coming to Los
 8        Angeles in early 1991, he was being trained also
 9        there as an investigator.  At the time, there had
10        been some disputes with two gentlemen who lived in
11        Miami, named Fishman and Geertz.
12             Steven Fishman was involved in some securities
13        fraud and was caught by the government and
14        prosecuted for securities fraud, and he tried a
15        novel defense of claiming that the Church of
16        Scientology had something to do with it.  He wasn't
17        a Scientologist.  I guess he'd read about it in the
18        newspaper.  And to set up a defense, he went into
19        the church and bought some books and bought some
20        things.  And he claimed to the FBI that he had been
21        pressured somehow by the church.  And he asked for a
22        tap to be put on his phone so he could prove it.
23             Well, what Mr. Fishman did at that point was
24        hire a street person to read a script to him over
25        the phone, to make an alleged threat, pretending
 1        that he was from the church.  Turned out that this
 2        fellow turned himself in, and the FBI caught him and
 3        found out that the whole thing was a fraud.  And
 4        Mr. Fishman was not only convicted of securities
 5        fraud, but he was convicted of obstruction of
 6        justice for this attempted set-up.
 7             While he was in jail, in 1991, he gave an
 8        interview to a reporter resulting in some magazine
 9        articles, both he and his -- and his psychologist,
10        Uwe Geertz.  And litigation arose out of that.  Was
11        filed in 1991.
12             One of the documents that you saw on Friday was
13        a -- was a telex or a message to Mr. Oliver and to
14        his office to collect some information concerning
15        Mr. Geertz.  Because --
16             THE COURT:  Didn't I keep that out?
17             MR. MOXON:  Yes, you did.  But you indicated
18        you wanted to hear more about it.
19             But I just wanted to let you know that that's
20        part -- and a primary thing that they were doing, in
21        fact in Miami; that the investigative office there
22        was doing at that time.
23             So we've got Mr. Oliver essentially saying, "I
24        was starting to work for the church as an
25        investigator.  I was allegedly learning the ropes as
 1        an investigator."  And he was working on these
 2        things that had to do, really, with litigation, both
 3        the Geertz case with these Cult Awareness Network
 4        cases.  And he shouldn't be permitted to testify
 5        about these matters.
 6             Now, of course we assert that what he's
 7        testified to thus far is extremely inaccurate.  And
 8        I won't go into that any further at this point.  But
 9        that whatever he claims he is doing as an
10        investigator, working for the church in Miami or as
11        this trainee in Los Angeles, is protected.
12             That's the long and the short of it.
13             THE COURT:  All right.
14             MR. MOXON:  I can give you some more details if
15        you wish.  And you may have a chance to read this
16        later.
17             And as a final -- final issue, we've looked
18        again at the -- at theft of these materials, and we
19        haven't found case law that I think is directly
20        applicable.  Obviously there could have been a civil
21        action brought, and possibly still can, against
22        Mr. Oliver, arising out of these thefts.
23             But over the weekend, we did contact the person
24        that he identified, Tracy Pase, who he said was his
25        superior in Miami, and she said -- and there's an
 1        affidavit in the pack that I've given you.  She
 2        indicated that she never gave Mr. Oliver this --
 3        this hat pack that he's attempted to introduce into
 4        evidence.  He never -- he wasn't authorized to have
 5        it.
 6             And there's a contract that I've also attached,
 7        indicating that Mr. Oliver signed a contract saying
 8        he had no right to any materials that he kept and he
 9        had to turn them back in.
10             Now, this is very interesting.  Because if
11        you'll recall, that suppressive person declare that
12        he testified about was a one-page declaration
13        identifying Mr. Oliver as a suppressive person?  In
14        that -- in that document, that contemporaneous
15        document issued in 1992, it said that one of the
16        things that Mr. Oliver did was that he kept some
17        materials; you know, he took some records from the
18        church and he refused to return them.  But it
19        indicated in that document that he'd now returned
20        everything.
21             So he'd represented at that time that he'd
22        returned whatever it is that he'd taken from his
23        office, whether it's considered stolen or something,
24        it was in his possession, and he just maintained and
25        never mentioned -- he asserted that he'd returned
 1        everything, and it didn't turn out until five years
 2        later, whatever it was, that Mr. Oliver got up and
 3        started making these statements --
 4             THE COURT:  The problem I have with the
 5        stolen-document allegation is that he, as you all
 6        were saying this, was talking over here -- and I'm
 7        sure it's on the record -- saying, "I never stole
 8        anything.  These are not stolen documents."  You
 9        can't make that an issue just by putting in some
10        affidavit.  In other words, if you want to make that
11        an issue, that these are stolen documents, then
12        you're going to have to have somebody come here and
13        testify and say they're stolen documents.
14             What's going to happen, I'm sure, during cross
15        examination, unless somehow or other it can be
16        established they are stolen documents, is that he's
17        going to say they aren't.  Well, that's what I'm
18        going to have in front of me.
19             So we'll have to really see where the cross
20        examination goes as to these stolen documents.  I
21        can't make -- I can't make a decision right now
22        based on what he said, because right now he has said
23        he didn't steal any documents.
24             MR. MOXON:  Well --
25             THE COURT:  So the stolen document is out for
 1        now.  I mean, if I determine that they're stolen
 2        documents, then we'll see whether or not stolen
 3        documents can be used in its very limited sense,
 4        which as I presume it's being used, is a -- is for
 5        this hearing and the specific allegations made
 6        during this hearing.  But I'm not ready to make the
 7        decision yet that they're stolen documents based on
 8        what I've heard.  So that, we've got to leave for
 9        another day or another time.
10             MR. MOXON:  I understand.
11             THE COURT:  The -- the work product, however, I
12        do have -- I want to hear counsel on that.  That's
13        on what I presume is your anticipated testimony on
14        the CAN, C-A-N?
15             MR. MOXON:  Yes, Judge.
16             THE COURT:  And the testimony -- I don't
17        remember specifically as to the -- Geertz, but I
18        do -- I do remember something about that already.
19             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
20             THE COURT:  Go ahead.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Apparently -- the Geertz was
22        that one little -- those notes --
23             THE COURT:  Yes.  And I did not let those in.
24             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  You did not.
25             THE COURT:  So I don't know that we really have
 1        to talk about that.
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
 3             THE COURT:  It's the anticipated testimony as
 4        to CAN --
 5             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
 6             THE COURT:  -- and what their intention is, is
 7        that he was working for them in anticipation of
 8        litigation, and that's what his work was, and
 9        therefore it would be privileged.
10             MR. LIROT:  Well, Judge, in response, I think
11        that we have relied basically on a different theory.
12        And obviously our theory is that there's a -- a
13        custom and practice of the Church of Scientology, in
14        using the OSA investigative arm, not to do research
15        in furtherance of legal activities, but to go
16        digging into areas that have nothing to do with
17        either pending or contemplated litigation, to try to
18        use whatever personal information they could find --
19             I think you heard testimony about the D-line;
20        going through people's garbage.  I can't -- I can't
21        make an argument that says that's in furtherance of
22        litigation.
23             And candidly, Judge, if somebody goes to a CAN
24        meeting to rabble-rouse or to hand out fliers or to
25        in some way impugn the integrity of whoever is
 1        operating the organization, the so-called dead agent
 2        caper as I think you heard testimony on -- none of
 3        that is really being done in furtherance or in
 4        contemplation of litigation.
 5             And it's our position that basically all of the
 6        things that Mr. Oliver has testified to would be
 7        subject to the crime fraud exception.  There is no
 8        fiduciary duty of any employee -- employee -- if, as
 9        Mr. Franks has testified, is concerned about is
10        welfare in the eyes of the Church of Scientology, he
11        tried to root out, as he said, and then ultimately
12        he was just handed this suppressive person declare,
13        and I guess that's tantamount to having been thrown
14        out -- he has a right to maintain those documents.
15        Basically, they're given to him in the context of
16        his training.  He has a right to protect himself
17        with those.
18             THE COURT:  I'm not on that.  We're talking
19        about anticipated testimony.
20             I think what I'm going to have to do is -- I've
21        heard your argument.  I'm going to have to hear what
22        he says.
23             MR. LIROT:  All right.
24             THE COURT:  It would seem to me, if what your
25        allegation is, is that what he was doing was -- was
 1        not in anticipation of litigation but was to harass
 2        and other things, that you might be right.  If it
 3        was -- he's going to talk about -- he investigated,
 4        did this, this and this, and it -- it is in
 5        contemplation of litigation, then I would say that
 6        he probably should not testify to that.  But I'm
 7        almost going to have to hear it.
 8             MR. LIROT:  I would agree, your Honor.
 9             THE COURT:  Okay.
10             MR. MOXON:  Just a final point, then.
11             We have attached here, to what I've given you,
12        some of the lawsuits that were -- that came out of
13        this Cult Awareness Network.  Several in 1991.  They
14        filed against us in 1992.  There were threats in
15        1992.
16             Just so -- so you know the scope of this --
17             THE COURT:  Okay.
18             MR. MOXON:  -- Mr. -- what -- Mr. Oliver may
19        not have even known everything he was doing.
20        Remember, he was just a trainee, and he was kind of,
21        you know, way down the line, being told, "This is
22        what we want investigated.  Look here, look here,
23        look here."  And so his awareness of the eventual
24        litigation would be extremely minimal.
25             THE COURT:  Part of my problem is -- it's now
 1        9:30, we're right in the middle of his testimony.
 2        You've handed this to me.  And while you say it's
 3        short, this thing is a good inch, inch and a half
 4        thick.  I just can't -- I'm going to have to let the
 5        hearing go on.  We all want to finish.
 6             I can certainly strike this.  And I can kind of
 7        rule as we go, I think, on some of it.  But I may
 8        just have to sort of listen, listen to cross
 9        examination.  And I may strike it all, for all I
10        know.
11             So I -- I know what your position is.  I just
12        don't want to take the time to try to understand
13        this.  I want to get this hearing over.
14             MR. MOXON:  Very good.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  So now for the purposes of when
16        he starts to do his testimony, I don't have to get
17        up and say --
18             THE COURT:  No.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  -- work product objection.
20             THE COURT:  No.  You can -- as to all of this
21        CAN, whatever that is -- Cult Awareness Network --
22        testimony, you may have an objection on work product
23        or work --
24             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
25             THE COURT:  -- work product --
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  As set forth in the brief.
 2             THE COURT:  Right.  Information received in
 3        contemplation of litigation and all that.  If I
 4        decide that that's what it is, I will strike it.
 5             And I will read this brief.
 6             Honestly, I'm getting far behind.  I can't seem
 7        to keep up all of a sudden.  You all are putting
 8        stuff in so fast and furiously that I --
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  We wouldn't --
10             THE COURT:  -- I --
11             MR. WEINBERG:  We wouldn't have done this, but
12        that was the last thing Mr. Lirot said Friday
13        afternoon, that this is what he anticipated, so
14        really this is the first time we could have
15        addressed it.
16             THE COURT:  Well, I took these documents home
17        and I tried to read them over the weekend.  Frankly
18        with five hours of tapes and duty judge, I didn't
19        get to any of that.
20             And I still haven't even -- I did finish
21        Mr. Miscavige's affidavit, which in and of itself is
22        fairly lengthy.  But I did not read the first
23        attachment yet.  So I'm clear back there with what's
24        being submitted and what I'm trying to keep up with.
25        So I'm falling behind.  Not that I'm not diligently
 1        spending my off hours trying to stay up, I'm just --
 2        I'm just falling behind.
 3             MR. LIROT:  Only human.
 4             THE COURT:  Okay.
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Did you have an active duty
 6        weekend?
 7             THE COURT:  Actually, we -- we had a big, long
 8        Saturday, but Sunday was -- with the rain, all I had
 9        was a lot of domestic batteries.  Which I told them
10        on Saturday we would have, but -- too -- too wet for
11        folks to commit armed robberies and sexual
12        batteries.
13             MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, may I be excused?  I'm
14        going to try and work on the rebuttal.
15             THE COURT:  You may.
16             MR. FUGATE:  Thank you.
17             THE COURT:  Proceed.
18             MR. LIROT:  Shall we proceed?
19             THE COURT:  Yes.
20              _____________________________________
21   BY MR. LIROT:
22        Q    Mr. Oliver, when we left off last Friday, we had
23   taken a look at, I think, two exhibits that I had marked as
24   Exhibit 175 and Exhibit 176.
25             MR. LIROT:  Judge, these were the
 1        communications that I think we've discussed this
 2        morning.
 3             THE COURT:  Okay.  That I kept out.
 4             MR. LIROT:  You did keep out.
 5             THE COURT:  Okay.
 6   BY MR. LIROT:
 7        Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you --
 8             Do you have a copy of 175 and 176?
 9        A    Yes.  I have the copies in my hand now.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Could we just wait a moment and
11        get this exhibit?
12             THE COURT:  Yes.
13             MR. LIROT:  Those are the telexes.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  I thought she kept them out.
15             THE COURT:  I kept out 175.  That's the last
16        note I have.  I don't know -- did I deal with 176?
17             MR. LIROT:  I don't think you did, your Honor.
18        I -- I'd handed that up and I said that we would
19        address that --
20             THE COURT:  I think that I was tired of this
21        hearing, and we stopped.
22             MR. LIROT:  That's exactly right.
23             THE COURT:  I did -- I do show on my own copy
24        that I ruled 175 is not in evidence.
25             MR. LIROT:  Now, Judge, I'd like to draw your
 1        attention to the second page of 175.
 2             THE COURT:  How can you draw my attention to it
 3        if I kept it out as evidence?  If you want to offer
 4        some testimony, go on ahead and try.  But I can't
 5        look at a document that I've said isn't in evidence.
 6             MR. LIROT:  Very well.
 7             THE COURT:  I mean, I can, but --
 8   BY MR. LIROT:
 9        Q    Mr. Oliver, do you recall what the second page of
10   175, Exhibit 175, represents?
11        A    Yes.
12        Q    Can you tell me what that is?
13             MR. WEINBERG:  This is completely
14        inappropriate, your Honor.  This document is out.
15        This is clearly -- you can read this document and
16        you can see that it has to do with the case.  This
17        violates the work product privilege of the church.
18        Plus this document, you can call it stolen; you can
19        call it unauthorized.  Clearly Mr. Oliver had no
20        right to leave his workspace and, 10 years later,
21        try to introduce a work product document into
22        evidence, or to discuss it.
23             THE COURT:  I have to look at it again.  I've
24        forgotten what it was.
25             It does look to me as if this is something
 1        that -- dealing with a case that they are
 2        investigating and they've asked him to do some work.
 3        And it would seem like this is -- this is matters --
 4        these are matters that he was asked to do pursuant
 5        to a case they were working on.  It would seem like
 6        that that's somehow privileged.
 7             MR. LIROT:  Judge, I wanted to ask him about
 8        the nature of that document, to respond to that
 9        concern.  And I'm not going to ask him about any of
10        the specifics of the case.
11             There is some language in there that would
12        indicate, at least to me, that -- that there's a
13        direction that criminal charges and/or civil matters
14        be initiated.  It doesn't seem to me to be done in
15        contemplation of litigation as much as being done
16        to -- to see that litigation is filed; not so much
17        to promote the interests of the church but to try to
18        in some way harm the individual that's the subject
19        of that communication.
20             I mean the church is not the State Attorney's
21        Office.
22             THE COURT:  But you see -- I see what you're
23        suggesting here.  All they're doing is kind of
24        laying out what it is they're trying to do, which is
25        to get criminal charges laid against him, and a
 1        civil suit, before he leaves Vancouver.  But all
 2        they're asking him to do is to get some data on the
 3        wife's maiden name.  So as far as what he was asked
 4        to do, I think that that's privileged.  As far as
 5        what they were trying to do, I don't know how he can
 6        really attest to that.  I mean, this came to him in
 7        sort of a confidential fashion, surely.
 8             I have problems with it, quite frankly.
 9             MR. LIROT:  All right.  I won't push it, Judge.
10             THE COURT:  All right.
11   BY MR. LIROT:
12        Q    Why don't you look at Exhibit 176, if you would,
13   Mr. Oliver?
14        A    Okay.  It's dated 26 August, 1991.  It's to the
15   invest officer, MM, which is the abbreviation for Miami.
16        Q    Can you tell us what that document is, without
17   talking specifically about any of the names; just the nature
18   of the document?
19        A    It's a document requesting me to do a little
20   research and to find -- find some information out on
21   someone, and for it to be used to dead agent someone's
22   testimony in another case.  And it was apparently -- it
23   never got -- it never got to me as it should have.  And
24   there's a note at the bottom indicating that it was sent to
25   me later on, long after the initial request was made to me.
 1   And it came from someone in the CAN unit.
 2        Q    Now, Mr. Oliver, what does the term dead agent
 3   mean?
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.
 5   BY MR. LIROT:
 6        Q    In the --
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  Asked and answered.
 8   BY MR. LIROT:
 9        Q    -- context --
10             MR. WEINBERG:  He explained it last week.
11             THE COURT:  Sustained.  He did.
12   BY MR. LIROT:
13        Q    In the context of that letter, what did you
14   understand it to mean?
15        A    I understand it to mean that it would -- that the
16   DA information that would have been found on this subject
17   would have been used to try and reverse a decision in some
18   court case that they had been involved in, where they had
19   given testimony.
20        Q    Now, as it relates to the training that you
21   received, and the hat pack and the other documents and
22   policies that you were required to be familiar with, what
23   type of information would you be asked to find to DA a
24   person, or dead agent a person?
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Again, he explained
 1        this last week.  He explained what it was --
 2             THE COURT:  I think he did.
 3             Didn't you testify about this for us last week?
 4             THE WITNESS:  I testified to certain aspects of
 5        dead agenting as it appeared in policy letters.
 6        This is an example of how that -- those policy
 7        letters would have actually been implemented in
 8        obtaining DA information.  So this is --
 9             THE COURT:  All right.  Go ahead.
10             THE WITNESS:  So this is the actual -- how it's
11        used.
12        A    There were -- part of the -- part of the -- part
13   of the description in the things that someone, as an
14   investigating officer, does in the Office of Special
15   Affairs.  And part of what we do is gather information.  And
16   it was to be exchanged with the PR department of the Office
17   of Special Affairs or with legal.
18             Now, in these particular --
19   BY MR. LIROT:
20        Q    Now, what --
21        A    In this particular case, they're asking me for
22   information to dig something up that would show the person
23   to be, you know, either a liar, or have, you know, been
24   involved in something that was illegal or criminal;
25   basically to refute that person's story or anything that
 1   they might have testified to.
 2        Q    All right.  Were you ever asked just to dig up
 3   enough information so that you could use innuendo and just
 4   basically dig up -- dig up aspects of a person's life that
 5   had nothing to do with litigation?
 6        A    Well, I was asked in general to -- to look into --
 7   look into information on an individual for anything, and how
 8   that information was actually utilized.  You know, that went
 9   to hiring levels or to the PR department or to legal.  So I
10   never know -- I never knew exactly what the information was
11   going to be used for.
12        Q    All right.
13             THE COURT:  So when you were asked to look into
14        things regarding criminal activities of a person, it
15        was to determine whether or not in fact the person
16        had been convicted of criminal activity or was
17        involved in criminal activity.
18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
19             And how that information was used --
20             THE COURT:  You don't know.
21             THE WITNESS:  -- I don't know.
22             I had seen it used in different ways.  I had
23        seen it used just for propaganda purposes, if you
24        will, DA information about an individual.  You know,
25        something published about the individual, saying,
 1        you know, this person was involved in, you know,
 2        some kind of a crime.  You know, I didn't see any
 3        litigation behind that.  I just saw that, you know,
 4        they prepared a pamphlet or something on somebody
 5        that was based on information garnered from the
 6        Office of Special Affairs.
 7             So I -- you know, it wasn't my position to know
 8        exactly how the information was used.
 9             THE COURT:  You were the low end of this --
10             THE WITNESS:  I was on the low end of the totem
11        pole.  You're right.
12             THE COURT:  Wait till I'm done.
13             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.
14             THE COURT:  You were on the low end of this
15        investigative unit.  You just gathered information
16        that you were asked to gather, turned it over to
17        somebody else, who did whatever they did with it.
18        Is that --
19             THE WITNESS:  Correct --
20             THE COURT:  -- fair?
21             THE WITNESS:  -- your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.
23   BY MR. LIROT:
24        Q    Did you ever have an experience where you saw that
25   some of the research that you or people you were familiar
 1   with in OSA had done where it ended up being used in ways
 2   other than litigation?
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  He just answered.
 4        He talked to you -- he said sometimes it went to PR,
 5        sometimes it went to legal.  He just went through
 6        it.
 7             THE COURT:  I think he's asking if he knows of
 8        any specific instances?  Is that what you're talking
 9        about?
10             MR. LIROT:  Yes, Judge.
11        A    Yes.  I know of a specific instance where
12   information was gathered on a subject, that I was certain
13   wasn't used for litigation purposes, because of its nature.
14   I won't go into specifics, I guess, because that's not what
15   you want to hear.
16   BY MR. LIROT:
17        Q    Well, without mentioning any name, can you give
18   the court some specifics as to what the information was?
19        A    It tried to paint an individual who was in a
20   position of -- an executive position in an organization,
21   whose views were different than that of Scientology, in an
22   unfair light, as having been involved in some kind of adult
23   entertainment industry, when in fact it wasn't the case.  It
24   was just a -- you know, somebody said this, so, "Okay.
25   Yeah.  We're going to use that."  And it wasn't true about
 1   the individual.
 2        Q    Did you ever see any of the information that --
 3   that you had developed or you knew of people in OSA
 4   developing against individuals used in handbills and things
 5   like that?
 6        A    Yes.  It was information on some subjects that I
 7   did some surveillance on when I was out there, and
 8   information was gathered from these individuals and was
 9   later explained to be something it was not.  It was
10   explained to be deprogramming, when in fact it wasn't.
11        Q    In your training -- was -- was your training
12   centered on developing your ability to investigate for
13   litigation purposes only?
14        A    No.  Not just for litigation purposes.  It was
15   also to learn how to -- to run the private investigators
16   themselves.  That was part of the training that initially
17   started before I left Los Angeles.  And then while I was
18   there, and then when I came back it, you know, it still
19   continued on how to actually run a private investigator.
20             THE COURT:  Someone hired outside the church
21        who worked for the church, you mean?
22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The church would hire a
23        private investigator.  And basically the Office of
24        Special Affairs runs the programs that the
25        investigators are on.  The investigators are given
 1        their orders from the Office of Special Affairs.
 2             THE COURT:  Okay.  You were trained in how to
 3        give those directions, is what you're saying?
 4             THE WITNESS:  That's what my training was
 5        consisting of at the time --
 6             THE COURT:  Okay.
 7             THE WITNESS:  -- yes, your Honor.
 8   BY MR. LIROT:
 9        Q    Now, would the policies, and I guess the letters
10   and other documents that I guess the hat pack required you
11   to be familiar with -- was your understanding that that
12   dealt largely with litigation or with other -- other goals?
13        A    No.  It dealt more than with litigation.
14             It's clearly stated in my -- in the statistics
15   structure on how, you know, your production is measured;
16   that the information that's gathered on subjects is used
17   for -- and it states it clearly.  It says, counsel, PR or
18   legal.  So how -- which one of those three entities -- and I
19   didn't have the distinction of knowing what legal versus
20   counsel was -- but any of these three entities would use the
21   information.
22             I myself didn't determine whether this was to be
23   used for this or that and the other.  I just gathered the
24   information and sent it up the -- the line.  And how it was
25   used -- how -- I -- you know, I kind of see it coming the
 1   other way; how it actually got used.
 2             THE COURT:  The PR meaning a negative PR, sort
 3        of.
 4             THE WITNESS:  Correct.  Yes.  To dead agent
 5        someone or to put out information on the individual
 6        based on intelligence that had been gathered by --
 7   BY MR. LIROT:
 8        Q    So you had -- we talked about the one document
 9   that had, basically, the points for local -- local stats,
10   national stats --
11        A    Mm-hmm.  Local attacks, national attacks.  It was
12   you attacks, who attacks; you know, different statistics
13   that were based on different things on either individuals
14   that were identified as attackers and individuals that were
15   identified as attacker that you got information on.  It
16   breaks it down into 10 different stats.  And however much
17   information was actually gotten, you know, was worth
18   something.  And then if it was actually used -- if it was
19   used in litigation, there was -- actually -- a litigation or
20   getting the person convicted of some crime, it was worth
21   more points, if you will.
22             And it's laid out in the -- in the description of
23   the statistics.
24        Q    Was there a record kept of these stats?
25        A    The stats were gathered every week and had to be
 1   submitted by 2:00 on Thursday.  They weren't -- they didn't
 2   go through the normal chain of the statistics of the rest of
 3   the organization, the Miami org.  The statistics for OSA had
 4   to go straight up to OSA.
 5        Q    All right.  So those statistics -- did they ever
 6   break it down as to, you know, you got three points because
 7   this was litigation-related but you got six points because
 8   you helped get a newspaper article published that impugned
 9   the person that was the subject of the investigation.
10        A    Yes.  But you had to actually have that -- the
11   article actually had to get published.  And that was
12   something that was handled by the PR side, not the invest
13   side.  So you would have to work with PR.  You'd have to
14   give them information.  And if they actually got it used,
15   then, you know, that division, you know, got those -- got
16   those stats because it was actually used.
17             THE COURT:  When you say that something went
18        straight up to OSA, OSA where?  Where did it end up?
19             THE WITNESS:  I had -- it had to go to the next
20        higher level.  The person that we were sending our
21        stats to, the person that I had communicated with,
22        was OSA East U.S., which was normally based in New
23        York, at what's considered the FOLO level --
24             THE COURT:  The what level?
25             THE WITNESS:  FOLO.  F-O-L-O.
 1             THE COURT:  Okay.
 2             THE WITNESS:  And that -- that individual, at
 3        the time that I went to Los Angeles, wasn't in New
 4        York; they were located -- they had been moved over
 5        to California because of what was going on out in
 6        California.  So the person that would normally have
 7        been in New York was actually in California.  But it
 8        was still the person that I spoke with all the time.
 9             THE COURT:  And the person you sent your
10        statistics to?
11             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
12             Well, I would give my statistics to the DSA,
13        director of special affairs, which was Tracy Pase.
14        She in turn would compile my statistics with her
15        statistics and the DSA PRO, public relations
16        officer -- those statistics would all be compiled
17        together, and then they would go up to OSA.
18             I would send reports directly to OSA, to the
19        Office of Special Affairs.
20             I was given a disk with a program on it once,
21        and it allowed me to send my reports up, encrypted,
22        directly to the bulletin board that they had set up
23        at OSA.  At the time, there was no Internet.  The
24        Internet didn't exist at that point, at least not
25        like it's known now.  So there was a bulletin board
 1        that OSA had, and you dialed up into it, you know,
 2        from my own computer.
 3             Now, I didn't have a computer in my office, so
 4        naturally a lot of the work that I did, I had to do
 5        at home because I had to type up reports.  We didn't
 6        have computers in the Office of Special Affairs in
 7        Miami.  So I had to do this from my home computer at
 8        the time.
 9             THE COURT:  Okay.
10   BY MR. LIROT:
11        Q    Now, we have talked about the policies and the
12   cancellation of the policy referred to as fair game.  Were
13   you familiar with other policies in your OSA training that
14   also required -- and I'll use the terms of the policy
15   itself -- lie, trick, sue or destroy?  Are there other
16   policy letters that indicate those are part of what your
17   responsibilities were?
18        A    There were several, I believe.  And we
19   introduced -- we introduced a couple of them.  I can't
20   remember the exact ones.  But they said in essence the same
21   thing.  Or I think in another policy letter, that statement
22   is also made, but I can't -- I can't tell you for certain.
23   You'd have to --
24             THE COURT:  You're talking about ones that
25        have -- you have already --
 1             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
 2             THE COURT:  -- looked at here?
 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, your Honor.
 4   BY MR. LIROT:
 5        Q    And were all four of those different categories
 6   part of your responsibilities in OSA?
 7        A    Well, it was -- it was known -- having read the
 8   policy, and understanding it, it was part of what was known
 9   to be within my job description, if you will, and I guess an
10   expected practice.
11        Q    Were you ever instructed that -- that, in keeping
12   with the work product doctrine, that you weren't supposed to
13   lie, trick or destroy people; that you were just supposed to
14   do things relative to suing them?
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection as to the form, your
16        Honor.
17             THE COURT:  Sustained.
18   BY MR. LIROT:
19        Q    Were you ever told to focus simply on the sue or
20   the litigation nature of those directives?
21        A    No.  I was never told that specifically.
22        Q    Was it encouraged that you go beyond those -- just
23   simply the litigation aspects of OSA's policy letters that
24   you were supposed to familiarize yourself with?
25        A    Gathering information on an individual to use in
 1   any way possible, as, you know -- as dictated with the hat;
 2   you know, it said gather information to be used with PR,
 3   legal or -- you know, I didn't know what it was used for.
 4   So anything was gathered, anything we could gather on the
 5   individual was subject to a report and to be entered into
 6   the machine, if you will.
 7        Q    All right.  With your familiarity with the dead
 8   agent caper or dead agent doctrine, I guess I'll call it,
 9   was that simply focused on litigation or were you encouraged
10   to go beyond that, to try to DA a person?
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection as to the form.
12             THE COURT:  I -- I think he can say yes or no
13        to that, so I'll allow it.
14        A    I'm sorry.  I'm going to have to ask you to repeat
15   it, 'cause --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  It was an either-or, so I -- ou
17        ycouldn't say yes or no to it, I suppose, but --
18             THE COURT:  Well, I'm going to --
19             MR. LIROT:  I'll phrase it in a yes or no
20        fashion, Judge.
21             THE COURT:  Please do.
22   BY MR. LIROT:
23        Q    Were you encouraged to go beyond litigation, to
24   try to achieve the DAing of a person?
25        A    Yes.
 1        Q    In what way?
 2        A    I was sent out to DA an individual that -- I
 3   believe I testified to this.  I was sent out to DA an
 4   individual that had been speaking out critical of the
 5   organization.  And what I was asked to do couldn't be
 6   indicated -- at least I couldn't see how that would have
 7   anything to do with legal.  I was to go out and try to
 8   discredit this person in a public place, and hand out
 9   Scientology literature about this -- you know, this man and
10   this -- the organization that he was talking about.  Didn't
11   have anything to do with legal.  I mean, I had to go out
12   there and try and discredit this man in a public place and
13   give out literature that would counter anything that he had
14   said at this meeting.  That wasn't in any way, to me at
15   least, indicative of anything having to do with a legal
16   case.
17        Q    Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what we've
18   marked as Exhibit 177.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, this was already
20        kept out for hearsay.  This is this news release
21        from the Cult Awareness Network.
22             THE COURT:  You know what, for some reason it's
23        not here.  I think what happened is I may have
24        pulled out a couple things, or they -- I don't have
25        it.  So if I could see somebody's copy --
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  You can see mine.
 2             THE COURT:  Thank you.
 3             Tell me what this is.  Well, let me ask you.
 4             What is this, first of all?
 5             THE WITNESS:  This is something you receive
 6        when -- this is part of the literature that you
 7        receive when you become a member of the Cult
 8        Awareness Network.  It's a paid membership.  And
 9        then they send you things like this, along with
10        solicitations for contribution.  And they send you
11        information on the current scene and what's going on
12        with the Cult Awareness Network and their
13        activities.
14             THE COURT:  Okay.  Now tell me this.  Tell me
15        what it is that you plan to ask him about this.
16        What it is you want to introduce this for.
17             MR. LIROT:  Judge, I wanted to ask him, first
18        of all, what his understanding of the Cult Awareness
19        Network was.  Obviously, there's a dispute with the
20        nature of the organization.  I wanted to ask him
21        what his directions were as far as infiltrating the
22        Cult Awareness Network.  And I wanted to ask him, I
23        guess, what -- in his understanding, what
24        nonlitigation assignments or goals he was given as
25        part of the fact that he infiltrated the Cult
 1        Awareness Network.
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, he already
 3        testified -- infiltration's a little extreme.  He
 4        already testified he got on the mailing list.
 5        That's what he said.  That's what he did.  And he
 6        got mail, apparently, this document, or something
 7        like it.  These are documents that are public
 8        documents that are sent all over the country that
 9        espouse the -- espouse the virtues, they believe, of
10        the Cult Awareness Network.  This is all the stuff
11        that they were saying about Scientology.
12             THE COURT:  Did I say that -- I don't remember,
13        and I don't remember that we got this far.  But did
14        I indicate that this could come in not for the truth
15        of the matter but for the fact that he got it;
16        therefore, that's what he did?  Or did I just simply
17        leave it out.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  No, you said it was hearsay.
19        Which it is.
20             THE COURT:  Which it is.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  I mean, it is.  He can
22        testify --
23             THE COURT:  There's no question it's hearsay.
24             MR. LIROT:  We're not offering it for the truth
25        of the statements made in the documents, Judge;
 1        we're offering it to show the -- the level of -- of
 2        activity that he had in this particular assignment
 3        that he was given, and what he understood the nature
 4        of the Cult Awareness Network to be.
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, he said he got on the
 6        mailing list.  We accept that.
 7             THE COURT:  Okay.
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  So what does this document have
 9        to do with it?
10             THE COURT:  Then I'm -- as far as the document
11        is concerned, it seems to me that it's just bad --
12             In other words, it's agreed that if he got on
13        the mailing list, he got mailings, including that.
14        But to put that in, I think, just simply puts in a
15        bunch of probably very anti-Scientology stuff that's
16        nothing more than hearsay.  So --
17             MR. LIROT:  All right.
18             THE COURT:  -- keep it out.
19             MR. LIROT:  I won't move -- I won't move the
20        document in, but I would like to inquire as to his
21        awareness of the characteristics of the Cult
22        Awareness Network.
23             THE COURT:  All right.
24        A    I had been instructed that the -- and given
25   information from the Office of Special Affairs that the Cult
 1   Awareness Network was some kind of a hate group that was
 2   responsible for assisting people in having family members
 3   get deprogrammed, and that they were -- people that were
 4   affiliated with the Cult Awareness Network were kidnappers
 5   and, you know, that were involved in such things like this.
 6   And this was how -- my initial briefing that I got on the
 7   Cult Awareness Network.
 8             And once I was out in Los Angeles, the assignments
 9   given to me were that -- the subjects of my first
10   surveillance that I did out there, were people that were
11   involved in the same type of thing, and that that's why we
12   were surveilling them and that's why we were watching what
13   they were doing, and checking their phone records and doing
14   all the things that the Office of Special Affairs does to
15   somebody.
16             But you know, it wasn't -- it wasn't a real covert
17   surveillance.  It was a noisy investigation.  Which, you
18   know, we had, you know, three and four cars at a time on one
19   block watching these subjects.  We followed them very
20   closely, where they went.  They knew we were there.  And I
21   even had to go into a restaurant, posing as a customer, and
22   sit at the table next to them, to try and listen to the
23   conversation that they were having, and conversations they
24   were having with someone that worked at the restaurant who
25   had a family member that had been involved.  And I was also
 1   involved in debriefing and reading a document from an
 2   individual that they had supposedly tried to deprogram.
 3             However, the fact of the matter was, when I -- I
 4   witnessed these individuals -- I spoke to the person that
 5   had supposedly been involved in an attempted deprogramming.
 6   And the facts never -- never matched up to what I had been
 7   told about these individuals.
 8             Subsequently, years later, I met the individuals
 9   in person and a lot of things were cleared up when I was
10   able to confront them face to face about it.
11             And yes, it is true that there were several
12   individuals that were friends, affiliated somehow with the
13   Cult Awareness Network.  In fact, that group in itself and
14   the premise for that organization existing wasn't about
15   that; it was formed by the daughter of a --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Your Honor.
17             THE COURT:  Way beyond anything I need to know.
18   BY MR. LIROT:
19        Q    All right.  When you were surveilling these folks
20   in the Cult Awareness Network, were you in -- were you
21   instructed that this was for the purposes of litigation?
22        A    At no time was I instructed that it was in the
23   purpose of litigation.
24        Q    Were you handed any kind of documents, any phone
25   records or credit reports?
 1        A    Yes.  I was handed those in an office by Mr. Shaw.
 2        Q    All right.  Now, do you have any idea of how a
 3   credit report would relate to any pending litigation?
 4        A    I'm not certain.  I was just told to look at the
 5   information and see what -- you know, what was on there;
 6   what kind of, you know, balances were there; what kind of --
 7   you know, maybe find out what kind of purchases had been
 8   made; maybe call the companies for some kind of information.
 9             I did -- I was given a phone records list also,
10   and another list of -- I had of phone numbers, and I was to
11   check -- cross reference these phone numbers to see if this
12   individual had called some of these other numbers.
13             I was also shown a -- a videotape, which I believe
14   had been gotten before the show aired.  I'm not certain of
15   that, but I believe that was the case.  And I saw this
16   videotape of these subjects that I was doing this
17   surveillance on.  I was shown this videotape in an office.
18   However, I wasn't told it had to do with litigation, even
19   though the office was Mr. Moxon's.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, just so the record's
21        clear, the fact that Mr. Oliver was or was not told
22        the purpose of this is completely -- I don't think,
23        really, is particularly relevant as to what he's
24        doing as part of, you know, protected work product.
25        He's at the low end of the scale.  And he was asked,
 1        apparently, to do things, you know, that happen in
 2        litigation:  Looking at credit reports; do things
 3        that lawyers, you know, want to be done to check out
 4        a witness.
 5             So I'm not sure where we're going with this.
 6             THE COURT:  I didn't know that people, on a
 7        normal witness, checked out their credit report
 8        before they deposed them.
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I don't know what he said
10        is true or not.  But -- but -- but you know, credit
11        reports, from time to time, are available.
12             MR. LIROT:  Judge --
13             THE COURT:  They may be, but they're not
14        generally available on a witness.  Generally I would
15        assume that you can't get my credit report or --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  No, I --
17             THE COURT:  -- somebody else's credit report.
18             I can.  I'm supposed to be able to get it.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  No.  We don't get credit
20        reports.
21             THE COURT:  Right.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  I mean, but -- but --
23             THE COURT:  Well, he's saying you did, see?  I
24        don't know if he's telling the truth or not, but
25        he's saying you did.
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  I just wanted to make it
 2        clear.
 3             THE COURT:  Right.
 4             And so he's saying you have these credit
 5        reports, which would be -- unless they got -- were
 6        obtained in discovery --
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, that's what he doesn't
 8        know.
 9             THE COURT:  Right.  Of course he doesn't.
10             But you wouldn't -- I don't normally -- I can't
11        think, in all my years on the bench, that I've ever
12        given out somebody's credit report as part of a
13        discovery packet.  So --
14             MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, may I -- Mr. Weinberg
15        isn't aware of some of the facts.  I think I know
16        what he's talking about.  Not with the credit
17        report.  I have no idea what he's talking about in
18        the credit report.
19             But into looking into this information about
20        these other deprogrammers, the way it's kind of
21        worked out now, he's giving generalities about
22        specifics.
23             THE COURT:  I'm not paying much attention to
24        that.  I think the only thing that is -- was of any
25        interest that I even heard was that he was given, by
 1        Mr. Shaw, credit reports of the witness and asked to
 2        go check and see if they made these --
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  He -- he didn't say Mr. Shaw.
 4             THE COURT:  Yes, he did say Mr. Shaw.
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Phone records, he said.
 6             THE WITNESS:  No.  Both.  I was given both.
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  I thought he said credit
 8        reports.
 9             THE COURT:  I thought he said both.
10             MR. MOXON:  My only point was this:  The
11        individuals that he was talking about that were
12        these deprogrammers in Los Angeles, I think he
13        mentioned at another point, were in point the
14        Whitfields, who were professional deprogrammers, who
15        were involved in litigation with the church; were
16        even Mr. Dandar's expert witness at one point,
17        identified in this case for a long time.  And the
18        litigation lasted for -- for several years with the
19        Whitfields.  They were also involved in the Cult
20        Awareness Network.
21             THE COURT:  Well, then that --
22             MR. MOXON:  So he's giving -- my point is he's
23        giving generalities about things, but in actual
24        fact, he is talking about a work product
25        investigation as to pending litigation.
 1             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, that -- that part.
 2        But frankly, it escaped me.
 3             MR. MOXON:  Well, I know.
 4             THE COURT:  Because it didn't sound like it was
 5        any bearing on this case.
 6             MR. MOXON:  No, it doesn't have any bearing on
 7        this case.  Except that Mr. Dandar's, you know,
 8        prior witness he just removed was -- was the person
 9        involved.  But it did have to do with other
10        litigation.
11             And the work product claim, of course, doesn't
12        die just because it's not related to this case.
13             THE COURT:  I understand.
14             But there's allegations -- you all just have to
15        understand this:  That the allegations, no matter
16        how you may look at them, are being made that the
17        Church of Scientology does things that would not be
18        considered appropriate to investigation.  Going
19        through folks' garbage.  That's what -- that's for
20        narcotics detectives to do, generally speaking.  And
21        then -- then that always brings forth a motion.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, tabloids -- I mean
23        newspapers go through -- it's on the street.
24             THE COURT:  Yes, they do.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  And it's not a crime.
 1             THE COURT:  And we don't generally think of
 2        that as being very, you know, proper behavior.  I
 3        wouldn't think most churches that I know of would be
 4        involved in going through garbage cans.
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Of course not.  But I mean,
 6        there's a distinction between doing something that
 7        is criminal and doing something that we don't think
 8        is all that great.
 9             THE COURT:  Exactly.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  And going through somebody's
11        garbage -- you know, we're not saying that that's
12        what happened, but that's -- you know -- that's not
13        a crime.  If it's on a public street.  And you know,
14        there's cases about all this.
15             And not just investigators -- I mean, not just
16        law enforcement people.  Tabloids.  I mean, that's
17        how the celebrities -- that's how these magazines
18        are written all the time.  You know, they -- they
19        go -- people throw something out and --
20             THE COURT:  I have no problem with that,
21        Counselor.  I think the information that's being
22        presented in this case to show that these are the
23        types of things that happened to Mr. Minton which
24        caused him to come in to come here and, as they say
25        it, lie.  So that's why it's even remotely
 1        admissible in the hearing.
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  And just so it's clear on the
 3        record, at least, when -- when Mr. Oliver says that
 4        he did -- you know, he said this to -- Ben Shaw gave
 5        him something -- you know, our position is that is
 6        not true or correct.
 7             THE COURT:  Well, I'm going to tell you
 8        something.  And this would be the same thing that
 9        would be true in any hearing, in any trial, in any
10        motion:
11             If something is said and it is -- it is left
12        unrefuted, it becomes a fact.  If in fact it is
13        refuted, which is up to you on cross examination or
14        through another witness, then I'll have to decide
15        who's telling the truth or whether he's telling the
16        truth.  But just because you say, "By the way, just
17        because he says it doesn't make it true," if he says
18        it, and you don't challenge it on cross and you
19        don't put on another witness, it is a fact and it is
20        true.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Well -- but that -- but that --
22        if that's the case, then the rebuttal will go for --
23        for two months.  I mean, we have challenged the
24        credibility, for example, of all the witnesses,
25        including Mr. Prince.  Mr. Prince said a lot of
 1        things.  It would take us months to take each
 2        individual thing and refute.
 3             But we challenged his credibility --
 4             THE COURT:  Yes, you did.
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  -- and --
 6             Right.  So --
 7             THE COURT:  And as long as you challenge
 8        somebody's credibility, then --
 9             You have not even asked this man the first
10        question.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Of course not.
12             THE COURT:  You can't stand up, Counsel, in a
13        courtroom, and say, "By the way, what he just said
14        isn't true," and expect me to assume --
15             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
16             THE COURT:  -- that what he said wasn't true.
17             I'm just reminding you what a lawyer does.
18        That's all.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
20             THE COURT:  As far as I'm concerned, at this
21        moment, it is true.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  And I'm going to challenge his
23        credibility.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  Then you may do that
25        and then I'll maybe change my mind.
 1             MR. LIROT:  Very good.
 2   BY MR. LIROT:
 3        Q    Well, Mr. Oliver, tell me the circumstances under
 4   which, as you've testified, Mr. Shaw handed you these phone
 5   records and these credit reports.
 6        A    This was in the Office of Special Affairs, in the
 7   ASHO building in Los Angeles.  And they were offices -- I
 8   believe the offices were on the third floor.  I may have the
 9   incorrect floor.  And that's where the CAN unit was.  Their
10   offices were in there.
11             And it was in the office of Toni Sharanmanis
12   (phonetic).  I don't know how to spell that last name.  It
13   was in her office where Mr. Shaw handed me this.
14        Q    All right.  Were you given any directions or -- I
15   mean, were you told that, "Here, we got this by executing a
16   subpoena or court order"?
17        A    I wasn't -- I wasn't instructed as to how the
18   document was obtained.  But this -- it always stayed with
19   me, because of the fact that I felt that this was really --
20   you know, I was really handed something here, and -- it was
21   the first time I'd ever been handed anything like that when
22   I was in OSA.  So it -- it stayed with me.  "How did --" you
23   know, "How did we get this?"
24             I had worked previously -- years ago, I had worked
25   for a small period of time in a major department store as a
 1   credit authorizer, and I knew myself what the particulars
 2   were behind obtaining a credit report:  TransUnion, CDI,
 3   TRW.  I had done this myself as a job in my past.
 4             So when I was handed this, I was wondering, you
 5   know, how did we get this?  But I -- I didn't ask questions.
 6   I was just given that.  I was just given the phone records.
 7             THE COURT:  The phone records of the individual
 8        that you were --
 9             THE WITNESS:  The subject that I was doing --
10             THE COURT:  Subject.
11             THE WITNESS:  -- surveillance on at the time.
12             Now, I didn't name them.  Mr. Moxon did.  I
13        didn't use their names, but --
14             THE COURT:  Was it their business phone records
15        or their home records?
16             THE WITNESS:  I believe it was their home phone
17        records, your Honor.  I don't think they had a
18        business.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.
20   BY MR. LIROT:
21        Q    Can you date this for us, Mr. Oliver?
22        A    July of 1991.
23        Q    And do you know if there was any litigation
24   pending against those individuals at that time?
25        A    No, I do not.  I didn't know it then, and it
 1   wasn't anything that was told to me.  I was to dig up
 2   information on these individuals, we were to watch them.
 3   There was a concern that these individuals were going to be
 4   leaving the country soon and meeting with another
 5   disaffected member of the organization.
 6             These subjects were former members themselves, but
 7   I was never told how important they had been in the
 8   organization when they were in.  I was never told that.  I
 9   found this out much later.
10        Q    Okay.  Were you even allowed to ask where these
11   documents had come from?
12        A    I'm sure I could have asked anything I wanted, but
13   I didn't.  I didn't.  There were some questions I knew not
14   to ask and that was one of them.
15        Q    All right.  For the -- for the personal phone
16   records, as part of doing a noisy investigation, what would
17   you do with those -- with those records?
18        A    There was a separate list that was given to me,
19   and I was to cross reference it with other numbers to see if
20   these individuals had been in fact with the people on the
21   other list.  And anything that kind of stood out, we were to
22   determine where this phone was -- you know, what city they
23   were in, based on the area code, and then we were to try and
24   obtain -- you know, maybe do a reverse look-up to see if we
25   could find out the name of the individual by giving the
 1   information operator the phone number.
 2        Q    Did you ever contact any of the numbers on these
 3   phone records yourself?
 4        A    Made a phone call to determine whether the person
 5   was male or female.  That's all I did.  To some of the
 6   numbers.
 7             I was pulled off of that to do something else,
 8   also, so I never quite finished that, that I started.
 9        Q    How about the credit report?  What assignment were
10   you given relative to any credit report that you were
11   provided?
12        A    We were looking at balances to see if they had
13   been -- if they were -- their credit -- their -- they had
14   been up to date; make sure their bills had been paid and if
15   there was any activity on any particular cards.  Kind of to
16   see if a purchase had been made or if a balance had gone out
17   to indicate maybe that somebody had bought a plane ticket or
18   something like that.  So it was just looking to see what's
19   there, what do we know about this individual, in terms of
20   their credit?
21        Q    Were there any policies in OSA as to what would be
22   done with information showing that a bill was unpaid or
23   somebody had a credit problem?
24        A    It would be part of something that would be
25   investigated through the company; try to, you know, get in
 1   there and look into -- to see if the individual had, you
 2   know, a judgment; if they were going through a financial
 3   problem.  It was just an indicator.  It was a string,
 4   basically.  They call it a string.  If there's something
 5   like that that sticks out a string, you pull it to find out
 6   what's on the other end of it.
 7             I didn't have to do any of that -- that part of it
 8   myself, though.
 9        Q    Now, did you ever attend any Cult Awareness
10   Network meetings?
11        A    Not while I was a member, no.
12             THE COURT:  Not while you were a member of the
13        Church of Scientology?
14             THE WITNESS:  Or the Cult Awareness Network.
15        Either one.  Either one.
16   BY MR. LIROT:
17        Q    Were you familiar with the Lisa McPherson Trust?
18        A    Yes.  I became familiar with it, you know, once it
19   opened.
20        Q    Well, let me back up one time and go back to the
21   Cult Awareness Network.
22             You were familiar with something called Plan 100?
23        A    I was familiar with -- not that term exactly, but
24   I was familiar with -- I became aware of something, while in
25   the Cult Awareness Network unit, through someone there, that
 1   they were going to plan -- they were going to plan some
 2   litigation because they wouldn't let somebody become a
 3   member.
 4        Q    All right.  Well, what was the nature of -- of
 5   that litigation, if you know?
 6        A    The Cult Awareness Network unit was --
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  This is work
 8        product.  He's talking about litigation.
 9             MR. LIROT:  It's -- the general -- the general
10        nature of it, I don't think is.
11             THE WITNESS:  That's all --
12             THE COURT:  Well, let me hear it.  Let me hear
13        what it is.
14             THE WITNESS:  That an -- individuals in the --
15        in the Cult Awareness Network unit were attempting
16        to join, and they were being kept from joining, and
17        that Scientology was going to close litigation
18        because they weren't allowed to join.
19             THE COURT:  Who?  Who wasn't allowed to join
20        what?
21             THE WITNESS:  Members of -- members of the CAN
22        unit identified openly as members of the Church of
23        Scientology were trying to join the Cult Awareness
24        Network as members of Scientology; stating that they
25        were members of the Church of Scientology; that they
 1        wanted to join the Cult Awareness Network.  And that
 2        the Cult Awareness Network had -- had, at one
 3        particular point, tried to keep these people from
 4        joining.  Thus litigation was going to be initiated
 5        by these individuals for the -- you know, the
 6        church, through these individuals, to sue the Cult
 7        Awareness Network, because they wouldn't allow these
 8        openly -- open Scientologists to join the Cult
 9        Awareness Network.
10   BY MR. LIROT:
11        Q    Do you know that -- that Plan 100 represented
12   the -- the desire of the church to file 100 lawsuits against
13   the Cult Awareness --
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection --
15        Q    -- Network?
16             MR. WEINBERG:  -- as to form.  It's just a
17        leading question.
18             THE COURT:  Sustained.
19   BY MR. LIROT:
20        Q    What did you understand Plan 100 to be?
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, this would be hearsay too,
22        whatever response --
23             THE COURT:  Yeah.  He said he didn't know.
24   BY MR. LIROT:
25        Q    All right.  Do you know whatever happened to the
 1   assets of the Cult Awareness Network?
 2        A    Yes, I do.
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection, unless he has some
 4        personal knowledge based on, you know -- based on --
 5             Otherwise it would be hearsay.
 6   BY MR. LIROT:
 7        Q    Well, let me ask you this, Mr. Oliver:  You had
 8   remained a member of the Cult Awareness Network after you
 9   departed Scientology?
10        A    Yes.
11        Q    What ultimately became of the Cult Awareness
12   Network?
13        A    It was forced into bankruptcy.  It was basically
14   destroyed.
15        Q    All right.  And do you have personal knowledge as
16   to what happened to the assets of the Cult Awareness
17   Network?
18        A    I did have a phone conversation with Cynthia
19   Kisser once, and we discussed it, you know, because I was --
20   I had basically called to apologize to Cynthia Kisser and --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, that would be hearsay,
22        your Honor, if he's about to describe a --
23             THE COURT:  Sustained.
24             MR. WEINBERG:  -- phone conversation.
25             THE COURT:  But if they went bankrupt and
 1        they're no longer in existence, it doesn't take a
 2        genius to figure it out.
 3   BY MR. LIROT:
 4        Q    Do you know if members of the Church of
 5   Scientology obtained a phone number for the Cult Awareness
 6   Network?
 7        A    Yes.
 8        Q    Do you know if members of the Church of
 9   Scientology continued to pose as the Cult Awareness Network?
10        A    Yes.
11        Q    All right.  Can you tell me what you know about
12   that?
13        A    I have -- I've contacted the Cult Awareness
14   Network, the new Cult Awareness Network, myself, and the --
15   there was a Scientologist who bought the assets, the name,
16   the phone number, and they currently are the ones that
17   answer the phone when you call the Cult Awareness Network.
18   They own it lock, stock and barrel.
19             THE COURT:  Own --
20             THE WITNESS:  They own the assets that were of
21        the old Cult Awareness Network.
22             THE COURT:  You mean it does exist, Cult --
23             THE WITNESS:  There's a new one now, and it's
24        owned by Scientology.  And it's called the New -- it
25        was called CAN, and now the Web site says the new
 1        CAN.  But it's owned by a gentleman who is a member
 2        of the Church of Scientology.  And he bought the
 3        name and the assets, I guess, on the courthouse
 4        steps, is what I heard.
 5   BY MR. LIROT:
 6        Q    Well, in -- in your communications with the new
 7   CAN, what did you understand the purpose of that
 8   organization to be?
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, you know, I mean we're so
10        far off field, the new CAN, and your conversations
11        with them, the purpose -- this is all hearsay.  I'm
12        not sure what it has to do --
13             THE COURT:  I don't know.  What does it have to
14        do with this proceeding?
15             MR. LIROT:  Judge, just part of the overall
16        practice that Scientology has of trying to undermine
17        organizations deemed to be antagonistic to its
18        viewpoints.
19             THE COURT:  Well, this is a new organization.
20        This is a new corporation.  I guess they're entitled
21        to set up any corporation they want.
22             MR. LIROT:  Very well.
23   BY MR. LIROT:
24        Q    Mr. Oliver, let me ask you about what you know
25   about the Lisa McPherson Trust.
 1        A    Lisa McPherson Trust was formed by Bob Minton.  He
 2   formed it as a for-profit corporation to try and provide
 3   some security for the individuals that would be contacting
 4   it, to try and reach loved ones or to help people that were
 5   involved in Scientology that were hurt by it, and to try and
 6   expose their abusive practices and policies and things that
 7   they do to people.
 8        Q    Did you see any parallels between the purposes of
 9   the Lisa McPherson Trust and the Cult Awareness Network?
10        A    Yes.
11        Q    All right.  What would you consider those
12   parallels to be?
13        A    The Cult Awareness Network was a clearinghouse,
14   and it provided information to people; the -- the practices
15   that were harmful to people.  And the Lisa McPherson Trust
16   was doing the same type of things.  Lisa McPherson Trust
17   however was more geared specifically to the issue of
18   Scientology, whereas the Cult Awareness Network also dealt
19   with other cults.  The Lisa McPherson Trust had several
20   ex-members, either friends of it or affiliated with it or on
21   the board, that provided a lot more information to people
22   and, you know, provided, I believe, a better resource to
23   individuals that wanted to know more information about the
24   activities of the Church of Scientology, and to offer more
25   counseling and more help to people that were trying to deal
 1   with coming out, and family members who had members in
 2   there, that they wanted to help them get out as well.
 3        Q    Now, as far as your relationship with the Lisa
 4   McPherson Trust, did you -- were you present on several
 5   occasions?
 6             Were you a resident of Clearwater?
 7             Let me just rephrase the question.
 8             Were you a resident of Clearwater during your
 9   affiliation with the Lisa McPherson Trust?
10        A    No.  I was not a resident of Clearwater.  I'm a
11   resident of Miami.
12        Q    And how extensive was your participation in the
13   Lisa McPherson Trust?
14        A    I wouldn't say it was real extensive, as compared
15   to people that were there on a regular basis.  I would fly
16   up for events.
17             THE COURT:  You said it was real extensive?
18             THE WITNESS:  It wasn't as extensive --
19             THE COURT:  When you say --
20             THE WITNESS:  -- as for people that were there.
21             THE COURT:  When you say "wasn't," a lot of
22        time that's going to come out "was."
23             THE WITNESS:  Oh.
24             THE COURT:  So when you're using contractions,
25        be sure you say "was not" or "was."  Because I
 1        thought you said "was."
 2             THE WITNESS:  Okay, your Honor.
 3             THE COURT:  You said "wasn't," apparently.  I
 4        didn't get the N-apostrophe-T.
 5             THE WITNESS:  Okay.
 6             THE COURT:  Go ahead.
 7        A    It wasn't -- it was not as extensive as those
 8   individuals who were there or lived in Clearwater, that, you
 9   know, spent more time at the trust.  I would fly in for
10   different events or different activities or litigation, if
11   it was required that I be there to assist in any way.
12   BY MR. LIROT:
13        Q    All right.  And did you actually on occasion
14   picket the Church of Scientology?
15        A    Of my own choosing, yes.
16        Q    All right.  Obviously you know Mr. Dandar.
17        A    Yes, I do.
18        Q    Did you ever know Mr. Dandar to join in any
19   pickets?
20        A    Never, in the time that I was involved in any of
21   this, have I ever seen Mr. Dandar with a picket sign in his
22   hand.
23        Q    And did -- were you paid by the Lisa McPherson
24   Trust?
25        A    No, I was not.
 1        Q    Were you -- have you ever been paid by Mr. Dandar
 2   for any purpose?
 3        A    A company I worked for was paid for trial exhibits
 4   produced in the McPherson case.
 5             THE COURT:  Paid for what?
 6             THE WITNESS:  Trial exhibits that were created.
 7        I'm a graphic designer.  We create trial exhibits.
 8   BY MR. LIROT:
 9        Q    And these would be enlarged demonstrative
10   exhibits, things like that?
11        A    Correct.
12        Q    Have you ever been paid for any testimony as an
13   expert or anything of that nature?
14        A    No, I have not.
15        Q    You testified that you knew Mr. Minton.  From your
16   relationship with the Lisa McPherson Trust, would you say
17   the Lisa McPherson Trust was nothing more than, I guess, a
18   warehouse for witnesses for the Lisa McPherson wrongful
19   death case?
20        A    No.  That wouldn't be an accurate characterization
21   of the Lisa McPherson Trust.  Not to my --
22        Q    And did you -- did you know Mr. Minton to have any
23   level of interest in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
24        A    The only level of interest that I knew he had was
25   that he was -- he was providing funding to cover the costs
 1   of the litigation.
 2        Q    Did you ever know Mr. Minton to direct the
 3   litigation at all?
 4        A    No.  I don't know Mr. Minton to have directed
 5   litigation.  He seemed pretty aloof about the case.
 6             THE COURT:  Truth of the matter is, this
 7        witness wouldn't know that.  I mean, I guess he'd
 8        know if he heard something, but he wouldn't know
 9        what went on between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar.
10             MR. LIROT:  Just to the extent that he knows,
11        Judge.
12             THE COURT:  Right.  In your presence, when you
13        were there --
14             THE WITNESS:  Right.
15             THE COURT:  -- on the few occasions, what have
16        you, you did not hear Mr. Minton directing
17        Mr. Dandar in the Lisa McPherson --
18             THE WITNESS:  No, I did not, your Honor.
19             THE COURT:  -- in the Lisa McPherson wrongful
20        death case.
21             THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.
22   BY MR. LIROT:
23        Q    Now, Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what we've
24   marked as Exhibit, I believe, 178.  This is a Time Magazine
25   article --
 1             I'll ask if you can -- can you identify that for
 2   the court?
 3        A    Yes.  It's a copy of the Time Magazine article
 4   that appeared in May, 1991.
 5        Q    And you're familiar with that article?
 6        A    Yes, I am.
 7        Q    Can I draw your attention to --
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, any -- I mean, this
 9        is -- this article --
10             MR. LIROT:  I haven't asked my question yet,
11        Judge.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, you're going to draw your
13        attention.
14             I want to make my objection, as I started last
15        week when -- this would be unmitigated hearsay.  The
16        article shouldn't come in, and there shouldn't be
17        questions as to what some reporter said in an
18        article in 1991.
19             THE COURT:  I would generally agree with that.
20        However I don't know what his question is.  You
21        can't make an objection before the question is
22        raised.  I have no idea what he's going to ask.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
24   BY MR. LIROT:
25        Q    Mr. Oliver, on -- I guess it's the -- after you
 1   open it up, the right page, it has a picture of the
 2   L-o-t-i-c-k-s, the Loticks, above a gravesite.  Did you know
 3   the Loticks to be members of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
 4        A    Yes.  I knew Dr. Lotick and his wife.  I met them
 5   at the Lisa McPherson Trust.
 6        Q    All right.  You are familiar with the term "PR
 7   flap"?
 8        A    Yes, I am?
 9        Q    What does that mean to you?
10        A    A public relations flap.  It means that something
11   involving public -- public relations is -- well, the term
12   "flap" means it's reared its head.  It's lifted itself up.
13   There's a problem there.  It's a bad situation regarding a
14   public relations matter.
15        Q    Were you a member of OSA when this Time Magazine
16   article came out?
17        A    Yes.
18        Q    Was it described to you as a PR flap?
19        A    It was described to me as a huge PR flap.
20        Q    All right.  And were you ever given any directions
21   relative to any efforts to try to neutralize this PR flap?
22        A    To direct any individuals in the organizations
23   that had seen the article --
24             THE COURT:  In the organization, that being
25        the --
 1             THE WITNESS:  The Miami organization.  Yes.
 2        Miami.  The Church of Scientology Miami.
 3        A    To direct any individuals who had seen the
 4   article, any questions that had been raised by the article,
 5   any knowledge reports written by any staff members
 6   concerning this article -- all these people were to be
 7   directed to the Office of Special Affairs where they would
 8   be debriefed.
 9   BY MR. LIROT:
10        Q    If you turn the next page, there's a list of --
11             THE COURT:  When you say debriefed, what does
12        that mean?
13             THE WITNESS:  They would be given information
14        to try to counter some of the allegations made in
15        the article.
16             THE COURT:  Okay.
17   BY MR. LIROT:
18        Q    Mr. Oliver, on the very last page -- it looks to
19   be page 57 of this exhibit -- it says that -- there's a
20   cut-out here says "The Scientologists --"
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection, your Honor.
22   BY MR. LIROT:
23        Q    "-- and Me."
24             MR. WEINBERG:  Now --
25             Excuse me.
 1             Now he's reading from an article that's not in
 2        evidence.  That's clearly hearsay.
 3             THE COURT:  Well, you know, the truth of the
 4        matter is, it's not a question he's asked yet.
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, he was just reading from
 6        the article.
 7             THE COURT:  Well, okay.  But again, I don't
 8        know what the question is.  We can -- I can't
 9        sustain an objection -- I don't -- I don't know what
10        he's going to read.  Thus far what he's asked about
11        the article would be not hearsay.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  I'll let him ask the question.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  But he's starting to quote from
15        it.  That's what I was --
16             MR. LIROT:  Judge, I was just directing his
17        attention to a certain section.
18   BY MR. LIROT:
19        Q    Says -- the title of the section is The
20   Scientologists and Me.  Have you read that particular
21   portion of this article?
22        A    Yes.  I've read this.
23        Q    All right.  And it -- in this portion of the
24   article, it appears to be the journalist that wrote the
25   article complaining about some of the tactics that were used
 1   against him.
 2        A    Yes.  That's what it says in the article.
 3             I've even spoken to this journalist myself.
 4        Q    All right.  Would you find, in your capacity as a
 5   member of OSA, that most of what he complains about were
 6   tasks similar to those that were assigned to you?
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.
 8        A    Yes.
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  The only way he can
10        answer that question is to assume that this --
11        whatever it is that he said in here, is in the
12        record.  It's just hearsay.
13             THE COURT:  Generally speaking, it would be
14        hearsay.  But if he's talking about certain --
15             If you can tell me what --
16             I mean, is it stuff he's already testified to?
17             MR. LIROT:  Well, Judge, I'll ask more specific
18        questions.
19             THE COURT:  Well, don't ask about the article,
20        then.  Ask if he ever did X, Y and Z, if you haven't
21        already covered it.
22   BY MR. LIROT:
23        Q    All right.  Mr. Oliver, as far as the -- the
24   investigations that are articulated in here, do you -- what
25   do you understand those investigations against Mr. Behar to
 1   be?
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.
 3   BY MR. LIROT:
 4        Q    Over and above what the article says.
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to that.  Mr. Behar is
 6        the -- is the author of the article.  Your Honor has
 7        directed him to say, outside of this article --
 8             THE COURT:  Right.
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  -- whether there was something
10        else that he hasn't said he did when he was in OSA.
11             THE COURT:  Right.
12             In other words, if you want to know -- I don't
13        know what's in the article.  I haven't read the
14        article.  May read the article.  Haven't read the
15        article.
16             If you want to ask him -- I don't know what's
17        in there, therefore -- "Did you ever go --" for
18        example, if he said his garbage was gone through,
19        you don't need to ask him that.  He's already said
20        he's gone through garbage.  If it says he -- I don't
21        know what it says.
22             Ask him, "Did you ever do this?  Did you ever
23        do that?"
24             You're not going to get the article in, so if
25        there's anything in there that you want to ask him
 1        whether he did, that you think would be relevant,
 2        you may.
 3   BY MR. LIROT:
 4        Q    All right.  For somebody writing an article
 5   adverse to the Church of Scientology, would you find it
 6   uncommon for 10 attorneys and six private investigators to
 7   be assigned to that person?
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection as to the form, your
 9        Honor.
10             THE COURT:  True.
11             How many lawyers and how many investigators
12        would you, if you know, imagine would be assigned to
13        someone writing an article that may be adverse to
14        Scientology?  If you know.  If you've ever been
15        assigned to such a thing.
16             THE WITNESS:  To an article?
17             THE COURT:  Right.
18             THE WITNESS:  To someone who's writing an
19        article?
20             THE COURT:  To someone -- if the church were to
21        learn that somebody was writing something, a book,
22        an article, a pamphlet, whatever, adverse to the
23        church --
24             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hmm.
25             THE COURT:  -- would --
 1             First of all, would you know whether or not
 2        investigators, internal investigators such as
 3        yourself, would be assigned to that task?
 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 5             THE COURT:  And were you ever assigned to such
 6        a task?
 7             THE WITNESS:  To that particular subject, no.
 8             THE COURT:  Okay.
 9             THE WITNESS:  I wouldn't.
10             THE COURT:  Well, then he can't testify.
11   BY MR. LIROT:
12        Q    Were you ever aware of a fraudulent company called
13   Educational Services obtaining credit reports as a source of
14   credit reports for the Church of Scientology?
15        A    No.
16        Q    Were you aware of friends and neighbors being
17   asked questions based on negative characteristics of people
18   being investigated simply to arouse suspicion of those
19   people?
20             THE COURT:  Counsel, there's already testimony
21        about that in this record, so --
22             Go ahead.  Are you aware of that?
23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
24             THE COURT:  Did you do that?
25             THE WITNESS:  It was done to me.
 1             MR. LIROT:  Well, Judge, to the extent that
 2        he's testified, I would like to move this article
 3        into evidence.
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  I object, your Honor, for the
 5        reasons --
 6             THE COURT:  Sustained.
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  -- already stated.
 8             THE COURT:  Objection sustained.  It's just a
 9        hearsay article; apparently an adverse,
10        inflammatory, I guess --
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
12             THE COURT:  -- article, and it would just be a
13        hearsay statement, so --
14   BY MR. LIROT:
15        Q    All right.  Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what
16   we've marked as Exhibits 179, 180 and 181.  Can you identify
17   Exhibit 179 to the court?
18        A    Yes.  This is a -- this is the title page and the
19   copyright page from the L. Ron Hubbard Introduction to
20   Scientology Ethics book.  It's copyrighted as 1989.  And
21   it's a -- it's pages from his section concerning rewards and
22   penalties.
23        Q    All right.  And in that book --
24             MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me.  I'm having trouble
25        finding what it is that you just --
 1             THE COURT:  Looks like this.
 2             MR. LIROT:  That I gave you at the end last
 3        week.
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
 5             MR. MOXON:  Do you have additional copies,
 6        Mr. Lirot?
 7             MR. LIROT:  I'll see if I can find them.
 8             (A discussion was held off the record.)
 9               (A recess was taken at 10:33 a.m.)
10           (The proceedings were resumed at 10:52 a.m.)
11             MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, may I exchange this
12        version of that motion I gave to you?  What I gave
13        you is the file copy.
14             THE COURT:  Yes, you can.
15             This is mine?
16             MR. MOXON:  This black one is yours.
17             THE COURT:  Thank you.
18             You may continue.
19             MR. LIROT:  Thank you, your Honor.
20             THE COURT:  By the way, for the record, I just
21        looked briefly at the list of tapes that had been
22        released, and the Gerry Armstrong interview had been
23        released in full.  So the one tape that only had
24        Mr. Armstrong in part and an interview by Mr. Dandar
25        on the other part will not be released, because you
 1        already have the first part of Mr. Armstrong's
 2        interview.
 3             Okay.
 4   BY MR. LIROT:
 5        Q    Mr. Oliver, I handed you an exhibit that was
 6   marked as 179.  Do you have that in front of you?
 7        A    Yes, I do.
 8        Q    All right.  Can you tell the court what that is?
 9        A    It's the title page and the date page -- I guess
10   the first page -- of the L. Ron Hubbard Introduction to
11   Scientology Ethics book, copyright 1989.  And the sections
12   attached are -- the first one is -- it says here Rewards and
13   Penalties, and the other two sections are from the section
14   entitled Suppressive Acts.
15        Q    All right.  Can you explain what those terms are
16   briefly, as they're contained in the excerpts from this
17   Introduction to Ethics.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I object to Mr. Oliver
19        explaining what they mean because he's not an
20        expert.  I suppose he could say --
21             THE COURT:  Well, isn't this a book that you
22        all --
23             MR. WEINBERG:  The book -- the whole book --
24        we're happy to put the whole book in.
25             MR. DANDAR:  You did already.
 1             THE COURT:  I think it is in evidence.
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  Not this one.
 3             MR. DANDAR:  Oh, I'm sorry.
 4             THE COURT:  To me, if you're giving somebody a
 5        book to read and it's a book that's for the general
 6        public to read, I don't know why he can't explain
 7        what he thinks it means to him.
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, that wasn't the question.
 9        The question was, what does it mean?
10             THE COURT:  Oh.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  I suppose if he wants to be
12        asked what does it mean to him -- I'm not sure of
13        the relevance of what it means to him, but that's a
14        different question.
15             THE COURT:  Okay.  I'm going to let him state
16        what it means to him.  He was a member of the
17        church, and he was a -- he's given some testimony
18        about this --
19             Does this just conform to what you've testified
20        to or not?
21             THE WITNESS:  I don't know what specifically
22        we're going to look at here until --
23             THE COURT:  Okay.
24             THE WITNESS:  -- I'm asked, so I can't say as
25        to whether or not, your Honor --
 1             THE COURT:  Well --
 2   BY MR. LIROT:
 3        Q    In the excerpts that we've marked as an exhibit --
 4   we talked about the suppressive persons and things like
 5   that.  And this is part of what you were required to be
 6   familiar with as your membership in OSA?
 7        A    Yes, it is.
 8        Q    All right.  And for those excerpts, as far as
 9   suppressive persons, what was your understanding -- not so
10   much what the church's view of this is, but what was your
11   understanding of the necessity for you to be familiar with
12   those terms?
13        A    That a suppressive person is someone who commits
14   these acts that are against Scientology.  And this, in the
15   Scientology ethic book, delineates -- talks here about
16   rewards and penalties, and also identifies the different
17   ways in which an individual can be labeled a suppressive
18   person by their suppressive acts, which are delineated on
19   222, going through 225, and what their opportunities would
20   be if they were a member of the Church of Scientology as to
21   returning to the group; what steps they would take, here, on
22   the second page.
23        Q    And you understand that this is -- this book,
24   copyright 1989?
25        A    Yes.  This is a -- a 1989 printing, which has some
 1   additional information that wasn't in the original printing
 2   of the Scientology ethics books, that I was -- that I
 3   purchased when I was a member.
 4             MR. LIROT:  Judge, I'd like to introduce 179
 5        into evidence.
 6             THE COURT:  It'll be received.
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  So long as --
 8             I mean, we'll just bring the whole book,
 9        because this is taken out of context --
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  -- if that's okay.
12   BY MR. LIROT:
13        Q    Mr. Oliver, I want to draw your attention to
14   what's been marked as Exhibit 180 and ask if you can
15   describe that to the court.
16        A    Yes.  This is the title page to a book entitled
17   Introduction to Scientology Ethics by L. Ron Hubbard.  And
18   this is copyright 1968 but reprinted in 1985.
19        Q    Is this a copy of the ethics book that was
20   provided to you as part of the OSHA hat package?
21        A    This is a book that I was required to familiarize
22   myself and read from.  I had to purchase the book, and I
23   did.  I purchased both books.
24             And this has in there the --
25             THE COURT:  These are two different books, are
 1        they?
 2             THE WITNESS:  They -- they seem to be the same
 3        book, your Honor, but they're actually different.
 4        They seem to be the same, but they're quite
 5        different.  This one right now is a very -- you
 6        know, this book is about maybe a half inch thick,
 7        and the one that -- previously that was entered into
 8        evidence -- that book's, like, an inch and a half
 9        thick.  And it's -- it's shown to be the same book,
10        but the title of the books are completely different,
11        so --
12             THE COURT:  The title of the book?
13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That is -- that says "L.
14        Ron Hubbard, Introduction to Scientology Ethics,"
15        and this one is "Introduction to Scientology Ethics,
16        by L. Ron Hubbard."  They are completely different
17        titles.  They seem to be the same, but they're not.
18             THE COURT:  You bought both books?
19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
20             THE COURT:  All right.
21   BY MR. LIROT:
22        Q    Now, in Exhibit 180, the excerpts there, what was
23   the significance of those excerpts, as far as your training
24   with OSA?
25             THE COURT:  Which excerpts are you looking at
 1        now?
 2             MR. LIROT:  Number 180.
 3             THE COURT:  I know.  But what excerpts?  Are
 4        you on page 32?
 5             MR. LIROT:  Judge, I'm going to start with the
 6        first page.
 7             THE COURT:  Oh, all right.
 8        A    The first page -- the first page is just the title
 9   page.
10   BY MR. LIROT:
11        Q    All right.  I meant the first page of text.
12   Excuse me.
13        A    Okay.  The next page is the copyright page.
14             The third page, I guess --
15             THE WITNESS:  Which says 32 and 33 at the
16        bottom, your Honor.
17        A    -- that starts -- this is a section of the
18   conditions and the formulas that you apply for a certain
19   condition in Scientology.  It goes from nonexistence,
20   danger, junior danger, emergency, and then it goes into
21   the -- and then it skips to the section on the rights of a
22   suppressive person.  And there's a small section on the
23   recourse of a potential trouble source.
24             MR. LIROT:  Judge, I'd like to move this
25        exhibit into evidence.
 1             THE COURT:  It'll be received.
 2   BY MR. LIROT:
 3        Q    Finally, Mr. Oliver, I've handed you what's been
 4   marked as Exhibit 181, and ask if you can describe that to
 5   the court.
 6        A    Yes.  This is a -- this is a copy of a brochure
 7   entitled Streamlines, which -- which talks about the routing
 8   forms that are used in Scientology.
 9        Q    All right.  Briefly explain the significance of
10   routing forms and their use in the Church of Scientology.
11        A    Routing form is used to -- is used for different
12   steps, once an individual's in Scientology.  When you go
13   on -- when you purchase a course and you go on to the
14   course, they put you on a routing form.  And it has steps.
15   The steps have relevant policies notated underneath as to
16   why those steps need to be taken.  They have a place for the
17   person to sign and for the person doing the routing form
18   with you to sign and the date.  And they can be used for
19   someone coming onto staff, somebody going into auditing, a
20   student going into the academy, someone leaving staff,
21   someone requesting a leave of absence.  These are the type
22   of actions that are used -- that routing forms are used for.
23             It basically keeps track of what is termed in the
24   organization particles in the organization, whether that be
25   a person doing a course or a person getting auditing.  It
 1   just lets the organization know where people are at what
 2   particular point in time and what steps they are on the
 3   action course or auditing that they're doing.
 4             So if you're going into the academy, the academy
 5   supervisor -- once you get up to the steps where you've paid
 6   for your course and you go see the academy supervisor, the
 7   academy supervisor then holds onto that form while you're
 8   doing the course, however long it takes you; days, weeks,
 9   months, however --
10             When you're done with the courses, they -- you're
11   still on that same routing form.  That piece of paper kind
12   of follows you through the organization to ensure that
13   you've done all the steps that are required.
14             From there the student would get a certificate,
15   and then they would get, you know -- there are different
16   steps, but in essence they'd get a certificate after their
17   course is completed, and then they'd go and see the
18   registrar again for them to sign them up on their next
19   course, for example.
20        Q    Does the church place special importance on the
21   use of routing forms?
22        A    Very much so.  It is how it manages and runs the
23   organization and keeps track of people, you know, where
24   they're at and what they're doing.  Yes.  It's very
25   important.  It's an integral management tool that is used
 1   for auditing and for processing and for just staff members
 2   or any individual in the building.
 3        Q    Is there a penalty if somebody doesn't properly
 4   comply with the requirements of the use of routing forms?
 5        A    The standard ethics penalties would apply for
 6   someone not following the rules of a routing form.  It would
 7   be violation of a policy that, depending on the severity,
 8   what it is that they did -- if they altered, destroyed or
 9   did something to a routing form, or didn't complete one
10   properly, or didn't finish one off -- you know, depending on
11   the individual and the severity and what they did or didn't
12   do, that would determine how severe the penalty would be for
13   not complying or completing a routing form.
14             MR. LIROT:  Judge, I'd like to move Exhibit 181
15        into evidence.
16             THE COURT:  It'll be received.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  No objection.
18             THE COURT:  What is this, by the way?  Is this
19        something --
20             THE WITNESS:  That's the cover.
21             THE COURT:  I understand that, but is this
22        something you bought or --
23             THE WITNESS:  It was just something that was
24        given to me in the course of being a staff member
25        there.
 1             THE COURT:  Okay.
 2             THE WITNESS:  It was a brochure, basically,
 3        that explained it.  It was nothing more than that.
 4             THE COURT:  All right.
 5   BY MR. LIROT:
 6        Q    All right.  I'm going to ask a few questions about
 7   the LMT and Bob Minton.
 8             And as -- as far as you knew, what was
 9   Mr. Minton's view of Mr. Dandar's communicative abilities
10   about the Lisa McPherson case?
11        A    It seemed to have degraded as -- you know, as I
12   was involved in the LMT, to a point where --
13             You know, Mr. Dandar was viewed very -- was very
14   well respected by people in the LMT because of his work in
15   the Lisa McPherson case.  And there were individuals that
16   worked there that also happened to be witnesses.  It just
17   turned out that way.  And Mr. Minton was the one that was
18   funding this case.
19             It wasn't until the fall of -- I believe it was
20   2001 that I had first become aware that Mr. Minton was
21   unhappy with the way the case was going, because of how he
22   perceived Mr. Dandar wasn't complying with the direction, if
23   you will, or advice be given to Mr. Dandar on the case by
24   Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks.  And he was upset to the
25   point where I had read on the Web, which provoked the phone
 1   call from me to him -- I read that he had cut off the
 2   funding to the case.
 3        Q    Now, as far as Mr. Minton's cut-off of funding, do
 4   you know if he ultimately came back to the fold and
 5   contributed more money to the wrongful death case?
 6        A    I believe that happened -- I believe that happened
 7   afterwards.
 8             One of the reasons -- I mean, it didn't seem to
 9   make sense to me.  One of the reasons given to me by -- you
10   know, one of the reasons I was told directly from Bob was
11   that he didn't want him talking to Patricia Greenway.  And
12   that didn't seem to make sense to me, because I know
13   Patricia Greenway was a good friend of Bob Minton's and was
14   a friend of the people of the LMT and was a friend of mine,
15   and had a relationship there with the individuals and was
16   helping as well.  So it didn't make sense to me until I, you
17   know, really got the gist of the fact that there was some
18   friction between -- at least perceived by Stacy Brooks, to
19   be between her and Patricia Greenway.  And that was kind of
20   a reason why, I guess.
21        Q    Now, as far as your familiarity with, I guess, the
22   policies and routine practices of the church, specifically
23   the OSA arm, why did you maintain these documents?
24        A    They were -- any course that I ever did in
25   Scientology, for example, when I had a student pack course,
 1   any pack that I was ever given -- like, for example, I
 2   bought my student hat pack.  That was given to me.  That was
 3   mine.  I kept -- I purchased -- I had to buy all the books
 4   that were associated with that course.  Any policies,
 5   letters relevant to that course, I was to keep.  I treated
 6   this pack the same way I treated that.
 7             Once I was leaving the organization, I realized
 8   exactly what I had been involved in, and I didn't think --
 9   by the time everything happened, there were a lot of steps
10   that happened with me trying to leave the organization.  And
11   by the time I had left the organization, in the manner in
12   which I left the organization, I had the pack; I had -- they
13   had asked me for certain things to be returned, and I
14   returned everything they asked me to return.  Which was just
15   one file that I happened to have in my briefcase.  But they
16   didn't ask me for the other stuff back.  They didn't ask me
17   for any of this stuff back.
18             And if, in part of my leaving through normal,
19   customary ways in which someone leaves the organization,
20   they had asked me back for the information, I probably would
21   have given everything they asked me for.  But if they didn't
22   ask me for it, I thought it was part of my course pack and
23   it was mine.
24        Q    Did you pay for the materials in your course pack?
25        A    My org was invoiced for that course that I was
 1   doing.  When you go to a higher org and you do a course
 2   there, they bill the org you're coming from for that course,
 3   because I was coming there as staff and not as a public
 4   person.  So for example, I did a course in my own org, they
 5   would write an invoice.  And since I was a staff member, the
 6   org would just hold on to that.
 7        Q    Did you perform work that would be the equivalent
 8   of whatever your org paid for these materials?
 9        A    I was a staff member when I was in Miami, and I
10   was working on the organization in Miami.  And when I went
11   out to Los Angeles, I spent time there and I was working for
12   the organization there.  That would be considered my work
13   that I did.  And yes, I was -- I was paid.
14        Q    So I guess my question is, whatever your org pays
15   for these materials, does it ultimately come out of your
16   effort?
17        A    Well, I would think it does.  But having had the
18   prior experience of having been on staff and leaving staff,
19   I had to pay back the organization for any courses I did.
20             I was actually presented with a bill -- and they
21   called it a freeloader debt -- when I was first on staff
22   back in '87.  And I paid off my freeloader debt in '88 when
23   I left.  Took about two months.  I paid it off in full.  And
24   then I could come back and be a public member.
25             However, when I left the Office of Special
 1   Affairs, I was never presented with any such invoice or any
 2   such bill for any courses that I had done.  I had left under
 3   nonstandard policy circumstances.
 4        Q    Did you -- did you maintain possession of these
 5   documents as a form to protect yourself should the church
 6   take any adverse action against you?
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to the form.
 8             THE COURT:  I'll allow it.
 9        A    I saw how they -- and how I -- did things to
10   individuals that had been ex-members.  And not knowing that
11   I would be --
12             THE COURT:  Is the answer yes or no to the
13        question?
14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
15             THE COURT:  Okay.  Now, if you need to explain
16        it, you can.
17        A    Not knowing that I would eventually be where I'm
18   sitting right now, and having seen what I saw, and having a
19   fear of what the organization may do -- you know, you go
20   through a lot when you're in the position that I'm in.  I
21   wasn't -- I was a little confused, a little scared; a little
22   more than a little scared at some point.  And with no
23   contact to them, and having been cut off from the people who
24   were my friends in the organization --
25             I couldn't talk to them.  I couldn't -- I wasn't
 1   allowed to speak to anyone in the organization at that
 2   point.  They weren't allowed to speak to me.  In fact, they
 3   would get in trouble if they spoke to me.
 4             THE COURT:  That's because you were declared?
 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
 6        A    So I was kind of just left out there.
 7             MR. LIROT:  Judge, can I have one moment?
 8             THE COURT:  You may.
 9             MR. LIROT:  We have no further questions at
10        this point.
11             THE COURT:  All right.
12             MR. LIROT:  Thank you, Judge.
13             THE COURT:  You may inquire.
14                        CROSS EXAMINATION
16        Q    Mr. Oliver, you're an anti-Scientologist, aren't
17   you?
18        A    I wouldn't characterize what I'd be as an
19   anti-Scientologist, no, Mr. Weinberg.
20        Q    You're a critic of Scientology?
21        A    I'm a critic of the abusive practices and policies
22   of the Church of Scientology.
23        Q    And you're part of a movement, a small movement
24   against Scientology?
25        A    I don't know if you'd say I'm part of a movement.
 1   I'm an individual expressing my own rights to have an
 2   opinion and to express it in a free country.
 3        Q    You participated in anti-Scientology activities,
 4   didn't you, over the past number of years?
 5        A    I've participated in expressions of the First
 6   Amendment.
 7        Q    You are a part of the LMT, correct?
 8        A    I was an advisory board member at one time.
 9        Q    At one time you were named as an original advisory
10   board member by Mr. Minton, in January of 2000, when the LMT
11   first opened, weren't you?
12        A    Yes.  I was told I was by Mr. Minton, yes.
13        Q    Now, you knew Mr. Minton prior to January of 2000?
14        A    I had met Mr. Minton prior to that, yes.
15        Q    And how long had you known Mr. Minton before
16   January of 2000?
17        A    The first time I met Mr. Minton was in 19 -- I
18   believe it was 1997.
19        Q    And the circumstances you met Mr. Minton in 1997?
20        A    I had come to Clearwater, and I met Mr. Minton in
21   a hotel room with several attorneys, whom I don't remember
22   all their names, and a gentleman by the name of Lawrence
23   Wollersheim.
24        Q    So Mr. Dandar was in that hotel room, wasn't he?
25        A    I didn't see Mr. Dandar there that day, no.
 1        Q    That was in March of 1997?
 2        A    It was in -- I couldn't be exact as to the month,
 3   but it was in 1997.  It may have been March.
 4        Q    And then after that, when did you next see
 5   Mr. Minton, or communicate with Mr. Minton, that had
 6   anything to do with Scientology?
 7        A    It was, I believe, in December of '97.  I think it
 8   was December of '97.
 9        Q    And that would be here in Clearwater, involving
10   the -- a picket in Clearwater?
11        A    No.  I think the next time I met Mr. Minton -- I'm
12   going to say December.  It may have been later on that same
13   March.  It was in California at a picket that I went to in
14   front of the same building where I used to work at, ASHO.
15   And we also picketed in front of the Golden Era Studios in
16   Hemet, California.
17        Q    And you and Mr. Minton and how many other folks?
18        A    Which picket, sir?
19        Q    The one you just described.
20        A    Well, those were different events going on over a
21   period of several days, so I'd like to know --
22             In some pickets there were more individuals.  At
23   ASHO, there may have been 30, 40 people there.  At Hemet,
24   there was maybe only a dozen.  So it depends on which
25   location you're asking me about.
 1        Q    And Hemet is where -- Hemet is in the desert, so
 2   to speak, correct?
 3        A    It's in the middle of the desert.  It's where the
 4   top Scientology management live.
 5        Q    And you and Mr. Minton and how many folks went to
 6   where the top Scientology management live in 1997, holding
 7   picket signs?
 8        A    I went with one other gentleman.  And they were
 9   already there when we got there.  So there may have been --
10   I'm saying there may have been a dozen people.  I was with
11   some people, with -- there was also a German film crew
12   filming there, so I'm not counting those, because they
13   weren't picketing.  They were videotaping the events for
14   German television.
15        Q    And you were holding signs?
16        A    I held a sign, yes.
17        Q    And remember what your sign said?
18        A    Not particularly, no.  I've held many different
19   signs.
20        Q    All right.  You were involved -- you had been
21   involved, since 1997, in a number of pickets of Scientology
22   buildings around the country, haven't you?
23        A    Yes.
24        Q    Now, how many different cities have you picketed
25   in?
 1        A    Four.
 2        Q    So we've got L.A., right?
 3        A    Mm-hmm.
 4        Q    You need to verbalize.
 5        A    Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes.  You have Los Angeles --
 6        Q    The --
 7        A    -- uh --
 8        Q    I'm sorry to interrupt you.
 9             You've got Los Angeles, and then Hemet, which is
10   in the desert, right?
11        A    And Clearwater and Washington, D.C.
12        Q    And how many different Scientology buildings in
13   L.A. did you picket?
14        A    I primarily picketed in front of -- I picketed in
15   front of the ASHO building.  That's one.  There's another
16   building across the street.  I don't know if I picketed that
17   one.  I wasn't on their sidewalk.  Basically, the street was
18   cut off.  So I don't know how I -- I didn't actually picket
19   a building.  My intent wasn't to picket a building.  I
20   picketed on that street.  And in the desert we picketed
21   along the road, so -- in Washington, we picketed in front of
22   the Washington, D.C. founding church.
23        Q    And in Clearwater --
24             THE COURT:  Founding church different from an
25        org?
 1             THE WITNESS:  Well, it's an org.  It's just
 2        called a founding church because it was the first
 3        organization put up.
 4             THE COURT:  Okay.
 5        A    And then this Clearwater, in front of the Ft.
 6   Harrison and in front of the Clearwater Bank Building, I
 7   believe also.
 9        Q    All right.
10        A    Trying to recall.  There's been several, but --
11        Q    All right.  And how many total pickets would you
12   say that you've been involved in concerning Scientology,
13   since that first one in 1997 in L.A.?
14        A    Maybe a dozen in total.
15        Q    Okay.  Now, you picketed on occasion during the
16   day, correct?
17        A    Correct.
18        Q    And you have picketed sometimes at night too,
19   didn't you?
20        A    Rarely.  I did a few at night.  I don't -- there's
21   only one that stands out in my mind.  But yeah, I've
22   picketed a couple of times at night.  Not very often.  It
23   wasn't my preferred method of expressing myself.
24        Q    Well, you do remember one time that you did a
25   midnight picket with Mr. Minton of the Ft. Harrison,
 1   correct?
 2        A    That is correct.
 3        Q    That was the one that had come to mind?
 4        A    Yes.
 5        Q    Okay.  Now, you recruited others, that didn't have
 6   any opinions about Scientology, to picket, particularly in
 7   Clearwater, didn't you?
 8        A    I would never say I recruited anyone to picket.
 9        Q    Well, do you remember convincing some kids, some
10   high school kids or young -- or teenagars or kids in
11   their -- in their late teens to wear T-shirts and to harass
12   members of the church?  Do you remember doing that?
13        A    Not based on your characterization, no.
14        Q    Well, do you remember recruiting some teenagers to
15   picket?  Do you remember doing that?
16        A    No.  I never recruited anyone to picket.
17        Q    Okay.  Well, did somebody in your group recruit
18   some teenagers to picket and make a lot of noise in front of
19   the Ft. Harrison and the Clearwater Bank Building?
20        A    To my knowledge, no one in the group of people I
21   was with ever recruited anyone to picket.
22        Q    Did you -- did anybody in the group of people that
23   you were picketing with ever pay people or give people
24   something to picket?
25        A    Not to my knowledge, no.
 1        Q    Now, on your pickets on occasion you -- you
 2   encouraged folks to make as much noise as possible to
 3   disrupt the activities in front of the church buildings,
 4   didn't you?
 5        A    No.
 6        Q    Now, the pickets in Clearwater were typically
 7   organized at the LMT, weren't they?  That's where they
 8   started.
 9        A    No.  I wouldn't say that to be true at all.
10        Q    So do you ever remember meeting with Mr. Minton,
11   Mr. Prince and others in the LMT offices to discuss a
12   picket, and then going out and doing it?
13        A    Not to discuss a picket and go out and do it, not
14   the way you're characterizing it, no.
15        Q    Now, you have picketed with Bob Minton, correct?
16        A    Correct.
17        Q    Stacy Brooks.
18        A    Yes.
19        Q    Jesse Prince.
20        A    Yes.
21        Q    Patricia Greenway.
22        A    Yes.
23        Q    Peter Alexander.
24        A    Yes.
25        Q    Jeff Jacobsen.
 1        A    Yes.
 2        Q    Mark Bunker.
 3        A    He normally carried a video camera.  I don't
 4   recall ever seeing Mark Bunker with a picket sign.
 5        Q    So he would go to the picket, but the idea was he
 6   was documenting these expressions of your First Amendment
 7   rights, right?  That's what he was there for.
 8        A    He was documenting for our security.
 9        Q    As far as security?
10        A    Yes.
11        Q    You mean, in case one of the church members got
12   upset that you were standing in front of the building saying
13   things that were not kind about Scientology?  Is that what
14   you're talking about?
15        A    In case someone disagreed with our First Amendment
16   right to picket.
17             THE COURT:  I noticed yesterday, by the way, on
18        these pickets, that both sides seem to videotape
19        these.  I mean, I saw the Church of Scientology with
20        a video person out there the whole time.  And they
21        were videotaping him videotaping --
22             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
23             THE COURT:  -- them.
24             So I mean, it looked like both sides had video
25        folks there.
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  No one's complaining about
 2        videoing.  I'm glad we had the videos.
 3             THE COURT:  And I gather -- it would make sense
 4        to me that with all of the -- what was going on in
 5        some of the other court cases -- for example, the
 6        one in front of Judge Penick -- it was thought there
 7        might be a need to know -- to have some
 8        documentation from both sides as to what was
 9        happening, 'cause the two sides didn't agree exactly
10        as to what was going on, I gather.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
13        Q    Now, on occasion you used a laser light, one of
14   these pen laser lights, on some of your pickets?
15        A    No.
16        Q    You never did that at night?
17        A    I did that once.
18        Q    So when I said on occasion, the answer was no, but
19   you did do it one time.
20        A    Yes.
21        Q    And that was on the midnight picket?
22        A    Yes.
23        Q    And you shined the laser light into the eyes of
24   the Scientologists that were standing outside in front of
25   the Ft. Harrison, didn't you?
 1        A    No.
 2        Q    Now, you would agree that these laser lights can
 3   be dangerous, correct, if you point it into somebody's eyes?
 4        A    That can be true.
 5        Q    I mean, you could cause damage to yourself or
 6   whoever it was that you pointed them in their eyes, couldn't
 7   you?
 8        A    You could.
 9        Q    Okay.  Well, let me show you a short clip from a
10   video that --
11             MR. WEINBERG:  -- your Honor, the church took
12        of this situation.  And then we're going to go to a
13        video that Mr. Bunker took.
14                   (The videotape was played:)
15             "(Inaudible) Scientology.  (Inaudible.)
16             "Come down to this end."
17             (Noise from traffic; videotaped ended.)
19        Q    Now, I've read that that's you with the laser
20   light, correct?
21        A    That is me.
22        Q    All right.  But you didn't shine it into anyone's
23   face?
24        A    No, sir.
25        Q    Now, you had fun, did you not, along with
 1   Mr. Minton and Mr. Prince and others, on these pickets in
 2   front of the church buildings in these locations around the
 3   country?
 4        A    What do you mean by fun?  I don't understand the
 5   question.
 6        Q    Well, you -- you were having a good time when you
 7   were expressing your First Amendment right.
 8        A    I was happy to be expressing my First Amendment
 9   rights, and I was with some friends.  I would consider that
10   to be having a good time.
11        Q    Now, do you consider that what you were doing was
12   harassment of the Church of Scientology, members of the
13   Church of Scientology?
14        A    Absolutely not.
15        Q    Now, I'm going to play for you the midnight picket
16   which I believe took place on February 6th, 2000, a month or
17   so after the LMT opened up.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  And your Honor, we have a -- if
19        it's -- we have a transcript.  If you want to, you
20        can follow it.
21             Now, before I play this --
22             THE COURT:  She can only use that if in fact
23        it's clear enough for her to --
24             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand that.  I think it's
25        pretty clear.
 1             THE COURT:  Okay.
 3        Q    Mr. Oliver, before we can play the tape, you're
 4   the person in this video that has much longer hair than you
 5   have now?
 6        A    Yes.  I had longer hair at the time.
 7        Q    You had like a --
 8        A    Ponytail.
 9        Q    -- ponytail in the back.
10        A    Mm-hmm.
11        Q    And on this particular situation, you're with
12   Mr. Minton, and then Mr. Bunker is there taking video?
13        A    There was actually -- Ms. Brooks was with us as
14   well.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  I'm going to sit down.
16             THE COURT:  Okay.
17             (The videotape was played as follows:)
18             "You like this?
19             "Beautiful.
20             "I love this damn Nazi (inaudible.)
21             "You got it?  All right.
22             "I need a new (inaudible) of (inaudible.)
23             "Just love pickets.
24             "Okay.  Off we go.  This is what you call a 12:00
25   picket.
 1             "It's only fun to picket with somebody else.
 2             "Well, this is kind of trippy, seeing all the
 3   lights here in the night shot.
 4             "We're following Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks,
 5   thank you, as we head over to the Ft. Harrison for a
 6   midnight picket.  Why?  For the fun of it.
 7             "They're out here.
 8             "They're gonna freak.
 9             "Wonder if we'll get arrested.
10             "I'm sure we will.  Wouldn't be fun if we didn't.
11             "Take it out of reverse.  Take it out of reverse.
12             "Hello.
13             "Hi, Joe.
14             "Take everybody inside.  Don't confront the truth.
15             "You want to be proud of Scientology?  Dump David
16   Miscavige.  He's a squirrel.  RTC is totally perverting the
17   tech.  RTC is a squirrel group.
18             "Hey, Bob, tell me, do you think they held her
19   (inaudible) there or -- (inaudible.)
20             "Third or fourth floor is where she was kept is
21   the bet.  Not back here in the cabanas.
22             "Not back here in the cabanas.
23             "No.
24             "L. Ron Hubbard would never approve of what David
25   Miscavige is doing to destroy Scientology.
 1             "I think Mark's coming out.
 2             "Why do you have to hide people?  Why are you
 3   afraid to confront the truth?
 4             "Oh, no it's PK.
 5             "PK.
 6             "Okay, PK.
 7             "Hi, PK.  How you doing tonight?
 8             "No, no, shine that camera on --"
 9                   (The videotape was paused.)
11        Q    Now, that light that's shining on -- Mr. Oliver,
12   that light that's shining on PK -- that's your laser light,
13   isn't it?
14        A    I don't see where you're pointing to, sir.
15        Q    When you watch the film, I'll ask you at the end.
16             You see this -- this light keeps appearing, all
17   right?
18             MR. WEINBERG:  So just -- just run it.
19              (The videotape was played as follows:)
20             "On Frank here.  Come on.  Come on, PK.  How
21        you doing --"
22             MR. WEINBERG:  You see -- (simultaneous with
23        the video.)
24             "-- tonight?
25             "What is -- what is with this -- what's this
 1        light?  Oh, you're doing that.
 2             "That's the night shot.
 3             "Oh, that's your night-shot thing.  Okay.
 4        Cool.
 5             "I've never -- I've never tried this before.
 6             "It's totally cool.
 7             "L. Ron Hubbard would never approve of what
 8        David Miscavige is doing to destroy Scientology.
 9             "Now, PK, you've been in Scientology a long
10        time.  You know that David Miscavige has squirrelled
11        so much of the tech that it's unbelievable.  Why is
12        RTC a squirrel group?
13             "You know, they thought they were going to have
14        a really nice night and --
15             "Why can't you -- why can't DM allow you to
16        deliver Scientology in a pure form instead of
17        squirreling it?
18             "We like -- we like these little -- little
19        alcoves you've -- you've created in order to keep
20        the Scientologists from seeing the fact that the
21        real world doesn't believe that Scientology works
22        the way it is practiced by David Miscavige.
23             "Miscavige is a squirrel.  Scientology is yet
24        to be completely researched.  It's an evolving
25        process.  If you want to let it evolve, you've got
 1        to -- you've got to be willing to change, guys.
 2             "Stop hiding, PK.  Where is hiding on the tone
 3        scale?
 4             "PK, when did you guys get the white lines over
 5        here?
 6             "We don't have the white lines over here.
 7             "There's no OTs here.  There's definitely no
 8        OTs in there.  If there were, we wouldn't be here.
 9             "Come on, PK.  Come on, PK.  Your time is soon.
10        You're going to be out soon.  Don't worry.
11             "Whoever leaves now doesn't get indicted.
12             "You know, PK, it's just like Jesse said the
13        other day; you know, I used to -- I used to like you
14        a little bit until I found out how much you were
15        involved in Lisa McPherson's death.  How did it
16        feel, PK, to see her wither away?  How did you feel
17        when you took her out of the damn Ft. Harrison when
18        she was dead?  How did it feel, PK?  How did it
19        feel, PK?  You want to tell us?
20             "Oh.
21             "How did it feel to help kill a fellow human
22        being?  Come on, PK, tell us.
23             "That's right, PK.  Hide.  'Cause you can't
24        confront the truth.  This is the whole problem about
25        Scientology.  It cannot confront the truth.
 1             "Look at that.  Scientology is spiritual death.
 2        You had no problems helping to kill Lisa, did you,
 3        PK?  How many other -- how many others have you been
 4        involved with, PK, that died?
 5             "How does it feel, PK?  How does it feel, PK?
 6        Paul Kellerhals.
 7             "Rather warm in Clearwater tonight.  It's
 8        like --
 9             "Accessory to murder.
10             "Oops.
11             "Come on, Paul.  Why are you hiding?  When are
12        you going to take responsibility for what you've
13        done?
14             "Come on, Paul.
15             "Come on, Paul.
16             "(Inaudible) for nonconfront.
17             "That's right.  Turn your head.  Let's see the
18   back of your head.
19             "This is --
20             "Why don't you put your head on the ground?  Come
21   on, PK.  Come on.
22             "PK, tell us what you did when Lisa was dying.
23   Tell us what you did when you helped carry her body out of
24   the Ft. Harrison.  What room did it come from?  Did it come
25   from the cabanas?  Did it come from the fourth floor, the
 1   OSA place?  Come on, PK.
 2             "That's -- go find someplace to hide.  Go behind
 3   the -- get behind that mesh there.  It's more in fitting
 4   with a murderer.
 5             "Come on, Kellerhals.
 6             "Tell the truth about the cult.
 7             "Confront the truth.
 8             "Stay out of that building.  That's Murder
 9   Incorporated in there.
10             "Come on, PK.  Come on, PK.  Talk to us about the
11   death of Lisa McPherson.  Tell us about your role in it.
12   Come on, PK.  You can do it.  Tell us.
13             "PK, what did Ben ask you to do?
14             "Did you use duct tape to strap her down?  Come
15   on, PK.
16             "Hey, Frank, that side of the sidewalk's not
17   closed over there, where you -- straight ahead of you.
18   That's open.
19             "Is it?
20             "Yeah.
21             "PK, there's no damn signs.  No Bob Barricades
22   there.  Hey, there's no signs there.  Hey -- Hey, Frank,
23   Frank, that's not -- that's not Scientology -- that's a
24   sidewalk right there where they've got that loading thing
25   there.
 1             "Well, I think you should keep moving.
 2             "Frank, keep moving there.  Move back and forth a
 3   little bit.
 4             "How does it feel to be a Flag security guard?
 5             (Inaudible.)
 6             "Hey, PK, how's it feel to have Marty Rathbun down
 7   here all the time now?  You know, DM would like to put Marty
 8   and Mike in the RPF, but they can't because there are no
 9   other goons that he's got to -- to take their place.  You're
10   running out of goons, PK.  Next they're going to ask you to
11   do the dirty work.  But of course, they already asked you to
12   help kill Lisa, didn't they, PK?
13             "You coming to court on Monday?  You talking to
14   Mike on the phone?  Is it -- Marty?  Where's Marty with his
15   video camera?
16             "It's tough going up against a totalitarian
17   culture, but --
18             "OT (inaudible.)
19             "-- somebody's got to do it.  That's why we're
20   here.
21             "No OTs in there.
22             "Well, how do we get to Helnwein's house?
23   Helnwein's house.  Yeah.  That's where we ought to go next.
24             "Hey, Ben, Ben, what about leaving the scene of a
25   murder?  How did you feel when you left the scene of Lisa
 1   McPherson, when you loaded her off into that car?  Want to
 2   tell us, Ben?  You know you were the guy there.
 3             "I got the -- I got the Scientologists on my back.
 4   You see?
 5             "That was you shining it.  I thought it was Mark's
 6   night-shot thing.
 7             "I was wondering about that.
 8             "Oh.  You wondered about that?
 9             "Yeah.
10             "No, that was me.
11             (Inaudible.)
12             "I thought maybe you had a focusing thing that --
13   some sort of night vision crap.  I never tried this before.
14   And I would check it.  I said, well no, that's not doing it.
15             "Should I tell them I'm moving to Clearwater yet?
16             "Yeah.
17             "Should I let them know I'm moving to Clearwater?
18             "You have to do it quietly.
19             "No.  I'll do it real loud.
20             "Bob (inaudible) let's go.  Let's get warm.
21             "Let's get warm.  Yeah.
22             "I'll warm you guys up later.  Tell my friends at
23   OSA I said hi.
24             "Guys, goodnight.
25             "Goodnight, Bob.  It was fun.  We've got to do
 1   this again real soon, okay?
 2             "Not tomorrow.
 3             "Not tomorrow.
 4             "We're coming out here again.
 5             "Goodnight, guys.
 6             We'll bring some sandwiches for these schmucks
 7   here.
 8             "Okay.  Let's go, Mark."
 9                       (End of videotape.)
11        Q    You had a pretty good time expressing your First
12   Amendment right that night in front of the Ft. Harrison with
13   Mr. Minton?
14        A    Actually it was a little cold, but yeah.  Yes.
15        Q    You heard, at the end of the tape, Mr. Minton and
16   Mr. Bunker finally discovered where that light was coming
17   from, and you acknowledged that it was from your laser
18   light.  That was what was shining up in the faces of those
19   Scientologists, wasn't it?
20        A    Not in the faces, no.  In the camera.
21        Q    Well, you remember that --
22             By the way, you -- you said earlier -- right at
23   the end of your direct examination, you expressed some
24   concern about -- about leaving the church, and you needed to
25   take these documents and protect yourself.  You didn't know
 1   what the church was going to do to you.  You remember all
 2   that?
 3        A    Not the way you're characterizing it.
 4        Q    Well, in any event, you chose on your own to
 5   testify at Mr. Minton's criminal trial, correct?
 6        A    I was asked if I would testify and I agreed to.
 7        Q    Right.  I mean, that was a very public appearance
 8   by Frank Oliver, right?
 9        A    Yes.
10        Q    You also testified at Jesse Prince -- for
11   Mr. Prince in his criminal trial, right?
12        A    I was asked to do so and I provided testimony.
13        Q    And you also were asked to testify and flew to
14   L.A., or to California, and except for the judge's ruling
15   that you were not an expert, you were asked to testify at
16   Keith Henson's terrorist trial that he was convicted at,
17   correct?
18        A    That's correct.
19        Q    All right.  Also a very public appearance,
20   correct?
21        A    That's correct.
22        Q    Now, in Mr. Minton's trial, the prosecutor, the
23   assistant state attorney, asked you about that laser, didn't
24   he?
25        A    Yes, he did.
 1        Q    And do you remember denying that you had shined it
 2   in the face?
 3        A    Yes.
 4        Q    I'm going to refer you to the May 23rd, 2000 --
 5             THE COURT:  Don't need to.  He just said he
 6        denied it.
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  I -- I'm going to ask
 8        him a couple of questions and see if --
 9             THE COURT:  You can't do that, Counsel.  You
10        can only use a transcript if somebody denies
11        something for impeachment.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  This does impeach him.
13             THE COURT:  All right.
15        Q    Well, do you remember that your testimony --
16             Well, your testimony in that trial was -- is that
17   the camera was -- was down at the side of the Scientologist.
18        A    That's how I recalled it at the time.  I didn't
19   have the benefit of a videotape of the event.
20        Q    Right.  So let me just read this testimony.
21             All right.  Page 50, line 19.  Question from the
22   prosecutor:  "And your testimony is that the camera is down
23   to their side?
24             "Answer:  I believe he had it down by his waist.
25             "Question:  You were flashing it all around.
 1   Wouldn't it be fair to assume that you got it in his face?
 2             "Answer:  No, sir.
 3             "Question:  I didn't see the Scientologists
 4   picking on anybody there.  Were they?
 5             "Answer:  Not at that particular moment.
 6             "Question:  You're messing with him, though,
 7   aren't you?
 8             "Answer:  If that is how you choose to
 9   characterize it, sir.
10             "Question:  Laser light in somebody's face.
11   That's not a good thing.
12             "No."
13             THE COURT:  Frankly, that's not appropriate --
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Hold --
15             THE COURT:  -- use of that transcript.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
17             Well, there's one more.
19        Q    "I put it in the judge's face, I'm going out of
20   here in handcuffs.  Would you agree?
21             "Answer:  Yeah.  But I haven't shined it in
22   anyone's face.
23             "Question:  You just shined it at them?
24             "Answer:  I didn't shine it in anyone's face.  I
25   was very clear, when I was doing it, in anyone's eyes -- I
 1   wouldn't want that done to me."
 2             Now, my question to you is, after looking at that
 3   video, you -- you didn't shine the light at a camera at
 4   someone's side; you shined the light directly in the camera
 5   as it was being held to his face, correct --
 6        A    I believe --
 7        Q    -- as it turns out.
 8        A    I believe what I said specifically was that I
 9   believe the camera was at his side.
10             I've had cameras pointed at me by Scientologist's
11   security for several years now, and a lot of times they've
12   been holding it at their eyes and other times they've been
13   holding it here.  When you have your camera shined in your
14   face so many times you forget.  The fact -- I remembered I
15   shone it specifically into the lens or was attempting to
16   shine it specifically into the lens, was the point.
17        Q    Now, that particular picket started inside the
18   LMT, didn't it?  The one we just looked at.
19        A    We came back from dinner, and the picket signs
20   were in the LMT.  So I don't know if it started in the LMT.
21   We didn't carry the picket signs from the LMT to where we
22   picketed.  We had put the signs in the car and drove to
23   where we were going to picket.
24             THE COURT:  Yeah.  I thought LMT was, like,
25        right across the street.
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  It's --
 2        A    We got in the car --
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  -- a few blocks away, then and
 4        they drove to it.
 5             THE COURT:  Oh.
 7        Q    The LMT -- let me just ask you this.  The LMT is
 8   on Watterson Street, correct?
 9        A    Correct.  It goes on the Watterson and Ft.
10   Harrison.  The building goes throughout.  It has fronts on
11   both sides of those streets.  It goes through the block.
12        Q    Right.
13             And the Clearwater Bank Building is on the same
14   street that the LMT is on, correct?
15        A    Correct.  There's, I believe, another building
16   adjacent between the two buildings.
17        Q    But the Ft. Harrison Hotel, where this picket
18   ended up, is a few blocks away, correct?
19        A    Correct.  It's about three blocks away, maybe,
20   from where we started.
21        Q    And that's where you drove to.
22        A    Correct.
23             THE COURT:  What's across the street from LMT?
24        Is that the criminal --
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Nothing, really.  It's a parking
 1        lot, is right --
 2             The next time we show a video, one of the next
 3        few videos, you'll -- you'll be able to see.  The --
 4             There's this little street called Watterson
 5        Street.  And on the front -- on the corner of that
 6        street, at the corner of Ft. Harrison and 60,
 7        whatever that's called -- what's 60 called?
 8        Cleveland -- is the Clearwater Bank Building.  And
 9        it runs with Ft. Harrison on one side and Watterson
10        on the other side.  And the LMT is about halfway
11        down the block on Watterson behind the Clearwater
12        Bank Building.
13             THE COURT:  All right.
15        Q    Now, would you consider what you just watched
16   there to be harassment of the Church of Scientology?
17        A    No.
18        Q    You do -- you did understand, did you not, that
19   the Ft. Harrison Hotel is -- is the ecclesiastical center of
20   the religion of Scientology.  I mean, you understood that.
21        A    I --
22        Q    What goes on there?
23        A    I've been to the Ft. Harrison as a staff member.
24   I've even stayed there.
25        Q    So the answer to my question is you understood
 1   that.
 2        A    I didn't do anything ecclesiastical, as you put
 3   it.  I don't -- you know, I never heard that word until a
 4   few years ago.  But I had never done that kind of --
 5             When I was at the Ft. Harrison, I did a course in
 6   the ballroom.  I did a coarse on big league sales training.
 7   So I never received any auditing at the Ft. Harrison.  I
 8   know that that went on there, but I never participated in
 9   that.
10        Q    When you saw in that video two -- a man and a
11   woman walking, you know, back to the Ft. Harrison, those
12   presumably were -- were Scientologists that were guests
13   there, correct?
14        A    I can't make that assumption by looking at
15   someone.  They were people walking into the building.
16        Q    You understood that -- that public members of
17   Scientology come from all over the world to come to
18   Clearwater and stay either at the Ft. Harrison or the
19   Sandcastle to relieve -- to receive religious services.  You
20   understood that, correct?
21        A    No.  They come to get auditing.
22        Q    Oh, so you have a problem with me saying religious
23   services?  Is that what's the problem with my question?
24        A    I -- I don't know what you mean by that.
25             THE COURT:  There are church services held
 1        there on Sunday, aren't there?
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, there are.
 3             THE COURT:  Okay.  So I mean, he's saying that
 4        there's training conducted there; there's auditing
 5        conducted there.  I know there's services conducted
 6        there.  So the word may be a term of art here.
 8        Q    You were the one on the tape that said, "They're
 9   gonna freak," right?  You remember saying that?
10        A    Yes, I do.
11        Q    And that was in anticipation of some pleasure that
12   you and Mr. Minton were going to get out of being in front
13   of their house?
14        A    I don't know what you mean by house.
15        Q    That's where the Scientologists are, right?  This
16   is one of their main buildings.  That's why you chose it.
17   Correct?
18        A    Well, you said house, and I don't know that to be
19   a -- a house.  I know that to be a Scientology building.  So
20   I'm trying to answer the exact question you're asking me.
21        Q    Now, y'all said very derogatory things about
22   Scientology during that picket, didn't you?
23        A    Could you point them out to me where I said them,
24   sir?
25        Q    Well, how about "DM"?  How about "DM"?  "David
 1   Miscavige is a squirrel."
 2        A    I don't think I said that.
 3        Q    Excuse me?  I said y'all.  You all.  You and
 4   Mr. Minton --
 5        A    Oh.
 6        Q    -- said very derogatory things during that
 7   midnight picket in front of the Ft. Harrison, correct?
 8        A    No.
 9        Q    You don't think that by screaming out "David
10   Miscavige is a squirrel," that that's -- that that is not a
11   derogatory thing to say about the leader of Scientology?
12        A    Those are the words of Mr. Minton.  And I'm sure
13   he would be more than happy to answer your question.  I can
14   only speak for myself.
15        Q    I'm asking you.
16             Do you consider that to be something derogatory to
17   scream out in front of the Ft. Harrison?
18        A    If it's a true statement it may not be derogatory.
19        Q    So you think it's a true statement that David
20   Miscavige is a squirrel, as defined in Scientology, which
21   means somebody that is altering the technology of
22   Scientology.  You believe that that's a true statement?
23        A    I believe that that may be going on right now.
24   Whether DM is responsible for it or not, I can't make that
25   assumption here.
 1        Q    When Mr. Minton -- when Mr. Minton said that
 2   "David Miscavige is perverting the tech," which is the
 3   religion of Scientology -- did you find that to be -- do you
 4   think that a Scientologist would find that to be a
 5   derogatory statement?
 6        A    I -- I honestly don't know.  It would be
 7   something, as a Scientologist, that I would want to look
 8   into, to find out if it was a factual statement or a
 9   derogatory one.  If it's factual, then it's only derogatory
10   to somebody who's committing something that's --
11             THE COURT:  The long and short of it is, it
12        doesn't really matter what he thinks.  It matters
13        what I think.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
15             Let's go on.
17        Q    Now, you -- when -- when you were on these
18   pickets --
19             THE COURT:  And it might eventually matter what
20        a jury thinks, on the counterclaim.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
22             THE COURT:  It doesn't matter what he thinks.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
25        Q    When you were on these pickets in Clearwater, you
 1   did everything you could to disrupt the activities of the
 2   church.
 3             THE COURT:  Well, to be candid with you,
 4        Counsel, you can't say somebody picketing at 12:00
 5        at night, when it would be presumed everybody is
 6        asleep --
 7             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm going to the next --
 8             THE COURT:  -- is very disruptive.
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm going to the next --
10             THE COURT:  I saw --
11             MR. WEINBERG:  -- topic.
12             THE COURT:  -- frankly, in that tape, two
13        people that were not security guards of the church
14        walking into the building.  Other than that, I
15        didn't see a soul.  So I don't know if anybody even
16        saw that picket.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I -- I would imagine that
18        people that were staying in the Ft. Harrison were --
19        would not have wanted to walk outside the front of
20        that building and be entertained by Mr. Minton or
21        Mr. Oliver.
22             THE COURT:  I would agree with you.  But the
23        truth of the matter is most of us don't -- at --
24        most folks don't go walking outside at 12:00 at
25        night.  Most folks are in for the night.
 1             MR. DANDAR:  For what it's worth, that was the
 2        rear of the building, not the --
 3             THE COURT:  What's that?
 4             MR. DANDAR:  -- front.
 5             That's the rear of the building, on that last
 6        video.
 7             THE COURT:  That's not to say there aren't
 8        plenty of pickets in the daytime, but this one
 9        happened to be a nighttime picket, which you have to
10        assume --
11             I don't know why anybody would picket at 12:00.
13        Q    Now, when you crossed the street -- remember when
14   you crossed the street for five minutes or so with your sign
15   and you went up to the security guards?
16        A    Yes.
17        Q    Number one, you -- Mr. Minton kept talking about
18   PK.  That's Paul Kellerhals, right?
19        A    Yes.
20        Q    And he's the head of security, correct?
21        A    Yes.
22        Q    All right.  Now, when you crossed the street and
23   you walked right up and got in their face, were you trying
24   to start a confrontation with them?
25             MR. DANDAR:  Objection to the phrase "got in
 1        their face."  The video doesn't show that.
 2             THE COURT:  Well, the video speaks for itself.
 3        Ask him what he was trying to do.
 5        Q    Were you trying to start a confrontation when you
 6   walked right up in front of the security guards?  Is that
 7   what you were trying to do?
 8        A    My intention has never been to start a
 9   confrontation with anyone in Scientology, whether security,
10   staff or public.
11        Q    Now, you didn't see anybody scream at you or yell
12   insults at you while you and Mr. Minton were demonstrating
13   in front of the Ft. Harrison that night, did you?
14        A    Not on that particular evening, no.
15        Q    They remained calm.  Even the security guard that
16   you walked right up to holding the sign; he remained calm,
17   didn't he?
18        A    Yes.  And so did I.
19        Q    Now, on other occasions, you attempted -- other
20   occasions -- not this midnight picket, now -- during the
21   day, you attempted to make -- to make as much noise as
22   possible to disrupt the activities of the church in
23   Clearwater, didn't you?
24        A    No.  I expressed my First Amendment right.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  If we could -- how
 1        long's this one going to take?
 2             ASSISTANT:  Eight minutes.
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  This one takes eight minutes.
 4        Should we do it now or --
 5             THE COURT:  Go ahead.
 6             MR. WEINBERG:  We can break for lunch.
 7             THE COURT:  No.  Go on ahead.
 8             I don't know how many of these things I'm going
 9        to have to watch.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  There are not that many.
11             THE COURT:  Okay.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  And we've cut them back.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.
14             MR. DANDAR:  There's an objection cumulative?
15             THE COURT:  Well, you know, there's going to
16        come a time when I'm going to sustain that
17        objection, particularly on rebuttal, if they want to
18        start playing jillions of these.  I don't want to
19        see them.  They have limited relevance to this case
20        that I'm doing right here.
21             Go on ahead.
22             They certainly tend to show some bias of the
23        witness --
24     (The videotape was started and stopped; simultaneous.)
25             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry?
 1             THE COURT:  They certainly show some bias of
 2        the witness.  But I don't really need to see them to
 3        know that.
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand, but -- there're
 5        not that many, but in light of what some of these
 6        witnesses have said, we think they show bias and
 7        impeaches them.
 8             THE COURT:  Okay.
 9             MR. WEINBERG:  Just start at the beginning
10        again.
11             _______________________________________
12              (The videotape was played as follows:)
13             "Go ahead.  Tell us about your experience with
14        Flag.
15             "Driving down my car on Drew Street, and we had
16        a Flag bus here in my lane.  And that was about it.
17        Freaked the shit out of me.
18             "So you're saying Scientologists aren't good
19        drivers?
20             "No.  I'm saying Scientologists are really
21        weird.  They represent everything that pretty much
22        what me and my band stand against.
23             "Your band.  And what band is that?
24             "All these kids are in my band, Dividing
25        Factor.
 1             "What's the name of the band again?
 2             "Dividing Factor.
 3             "Dividing Factor.
 4             "What kind of music you guys play?
 5             "Punk rock.
 6             "Punk rock.
 7             "Anti -- I mean, against all this.  They
 8        pretend -- (simultaneous speakers, inaudible;
 9        traffic sounds.)
10             "Beautiful -- (inaudible.)
11             "These guys are -- these guys are actually
12        taking advantage; these -- this group, Scientology,
13        actually takes advantage of people.  And that's kind
14        of got --"
15                   (The videotape was paused.)
17        Q    Just so -- you're the one saying this now,
18   correct?  "These guys are taking advantage."  That's you
19   talking.
20        A    I can't be sure.  It may be.  I can't -- I can't
21   tell without seeing my mouth.  So I don't know where the --
22        Q    Okay.
23        A    -- who's saying that or where the words are coming
24   from.
25                         (Tape resumed.)
 1             "(Inaudible) into this false sense of thinking
 2   that through their processes you're going to achieve some
 3   higher spiritual level, and -- when actually, they actually
 4   break up families; they will spiritually turn people inside
 5   out.  They promise them one thing.  In actuality there are
 6   just selling them -- they're selling them lies.  They take a
 7   lot of money from people that are members of this
 8   organization.  They have people in here now that are
 9   ex-members.  I'm an ex-member.  I got out in '92.  And they
10   use some of the most severe tactics for handling people that
11   oppose what they think.
12             "(Inaudible.)"
13             THE COURT:  Madam Court Reporter, what we did
14        the other day is, these, in all probability, just
15        can't be taken down verbatim.  And when they can't,
16        just put -- the tape is coming into evidence -- that
17        it's just too confusing to report.  But what you can
18        report, fine.  Just put the confusion or some word
19        in there to indicate --
20                (The reporter spoke to the judge.)
21             MR. WEINBERG:  This is the --
22             THE COURT:  I'm very concerned about
23        transcripts, that --
24             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
25             THE COURT:  -- I'm not sure -- she can't use a
 1        transcript unless she hears it.
 2             For example, there were things, for example, in
 3        the last transcript that I never heard.  There was,
 4        for example, the very end, "You like capers and
 5        smoked salmon."  That was not that video, that --
 6             MR. WEINBERG:  That's why we're not offering
 7        this transcript.  But it may --
 8             THE COURT:  Right.  But I don't want her
 9        putting down from a transcript if she can't take it
10        down.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  And I heard her say, I think,
12        that she understands that.
13             THE COURT:  And she does.
14             But I'm trying to give her an "out" here,
15        there's confusion or what have you.  You know, if
16        you read -- go over a transcript eight or 10 times,
17        you might be able to ferret it out.
18             But all you need to do for this hearing is put
19        whatever you want to put.  The tape will come in.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
21             THE COURT:  If anybody wants to see the tape,
22        they can.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  And that's what we thought we --
24             THE COURT:  But if you can take something down,
25        take it down.  When it gets real confused, just
 1        don't even try.
 2             MR. WEINBERG:  And that's what I thought we
 3        would do.  We'll just put the tape in.  Obviously,
 4        we're not putting the transcript in.
 5             THE COURT:  Right.
 6             MR. WEINBERG:  Might be some aid to you.
 7             THE COURT:  Yes.  It is.
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  And before we go back on the
 9        tape --
11        Q    Mr. Oliver, that was you saying those things about
12   Scientology, correct; in the baseball hat or whatever you
13   had on?
14        A    At the end, when I can see myself with the
15   baseball hat, yes, that was me.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Go ahead.
17                   (The videotape was resumed.)
18             "Wow, look at the new T-shirts.
19             (Inaudible) (screaming.)
20             "Psychs rule.  Psychs rule.  Psychs rule.  Psychs
21   rule.  Psychs rule.
22             "Scientology thinks that psych -- (inaudible.)
23             "Prozac.  Prozac.  Prozac.  Prozac.  Prozac.
24             "E-meter.  E-meter.  E-meter.  E-meter.  E-meter.
25             "Scientology believes that psychiatrists are the
 1   ones that are perpetrating a fraud on people, and that they
 2   (inaudible) and that they kill people.
 3             "Why don't you get a job and pay some taxes?
 4             "Yeah.
 5             "Yeah.
 6             "Pay your share.  Pay your share.  Pay your share.
 7   Pay your share.
 8             "Freeloader.  Freeloader.  Freeloader.
 9   Freeloader.  Freeloader.
10             "Hooch.  Hooch.  Hooch.
11             "Yeah.
12             (Noise, multiple speakers.)
13             "Yeah.
14             "Make some noise.
15             "Yeah.
16             (Traffic, cars honking, multiple speakers.)
17             "Okay.
18             (Inaudible.)
19             "Psychs suck.
20             "Psychs rule.
21             "These (inaudible) they say he died, but we
22   suspect he met foul play.  He was found to be full of a
23   psychiatrist drug called Vistaril.
24             "Vistaril.  Vistaril.  Vistaril.  Vistaril.
25   Vistaril.  Vistaril.
 1             "Here's another one.  Davy the dwarf.  Davy the
 2   dwarf.  Davy the dwarf.  Davy the dwarf.  Davy the dwarf.
 3   Davy the dwarf.  Yeah.  Davy the dwarf.
 4             "Miscavige -- and he's all of two inches tall.
 5   He's got -- he's got (inaudible) pouch that might have
 6   (inaudible.)
 7             "Davy was -- (inaudible) mouse.
 8             "Scientology is the mouse that roared.
 9             "Yeah.  Mouse.
10             "It's the mouse house.  Mouse house.
11             "SPs rule.  SPs rule.  SPs rule.  SPs rule.  SPs
12   rule.
13             "Here's another one they don't like.  Free speech.
14   Free speech.  Free speech.  Free speech.  Free speech.  Free
15   speech.
16             (Inaudible) No OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.
17        No OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.
18             "This guy's got (inaudible) I'll tell you.  No
19        joke.
20             "Well, I spent hours training myself to
21        (inaudible.)
23             "(Inaudible) I need a brick wall.
24             "This guy's got the right idea. (inaudible.)
25             "We got a building over on Watterson Street --
 1             (Inaudible.)
 2             "Oh.  Go across the street.  Give them 50 bucks
 3        (inaudible.)
 4             "On Watterson Street, we have a building called
 5        Lisa McPherson Trust -- Lisa McPherson Trust, which
 6        the people that are in --
 7             "Yeah.  We're going.
 8             "They've got a building next to our building,
 9        the Clearwater Bank Building, where they eat dinner.
10        They're all over there now eating dinner.  We're
11        going to take a little walk over there and help them
12        digest their meal.
13             "Yeah.
14             "All right.  Let's go home.
15             (Inaudible.)
16             "We're going over there to help them digest
17        their meal.
18             "Yeah.  Yeah."
19                   (The videotape was paused.)
20             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, that's the
21        Clearwater Bank Building now.  So they've left the
22        Ft. Harrison, and right there is the Clearwater Bank
23        Building that Mr. Oliver --
25        Q    Is that right, Mr. Oliver?
 1        A    On the left there, the building with the lights on
 2   it --
 3        Q    And --
 4        A    -- that's the Clearwater Bank Building --
 5        Q    And then --
 6        A    -- and that's Watterson Street.
 7        Q    And if you take a left down this street here,
 8   further down the block is where LMT is?
 9        A    Correct.
10        Q    And the Ft. Harrison --
11        A    It's down -- it's --
12        Q    And the Ft. Harrison --
13        A    -- down --
14        Q    -- would be back here somewhere.
15        A    Like over here, maybe.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Go ahead.
17                     (The videotape resumed.)
18             "What do we want?
19             "Food.
20             "What do we want?
21             "Now.
22             "What do we want?
23             "Food.
24             "What do we want?
25             "Now.
 1             "Now Prozac.  What do we want?
 2             "Prozac?
 3             "When do we want it?
 4             "Now.
 5             "What do we want?
 6             "Prozac.
 7             "When do we want it?
 8             "Now.
 9             "What do we want?
10             "Prozac.
11             "When do we want it?
12             "Now.
13             (Inaudible.)
14             "No OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.  No
15   OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.  No OTs.
16             (Inaudible.)
17             "No OTs.
18             "Free speech.  Free speech.  Free speech.  Free
19   speech.  Free speech.
20             "Why don't you think for yourself?
21             "Think for yourself.  Think for yourself.  Think
22   for yourself.
23             "L. Ron lied.  Lisa died.  L. Ron lied, Lisa died.
24   L. Ron lied.  Lisa died.  L. Ron lied.  Lisa died.  L. Ron
25   lied.  Lisa died.  L. Ron lied.  Lisa died."
 1                      (The videotape ended.)
 2             MR. DANDAR:  Should have showed her where the
 3        trust was right there.
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't know if you saw it, but
 5        right beyond that bus down the street is where the
 6        LMT is.
 8        Q    Now, this -- this picket, Mr. Oliver, was done
 9   around Christmastime, correct?
10        A    To -- yes, to commemorate with the anniversary of
11   the death of Lisa McPherson.  That was my reason for being
12   there.
13        Q    Now, I asked you earlier about recruiting kids.
14   Where -- who found those kids, including the guy that said
15   this is against everything that his punk rock band believes
16   in?  Who found those kids?
17        A    I don't know.  They walked up to me.  They wanted
18   to join the picket.
19        Q    And you just happened to have some T-shirts to
20   give them to put on?
21        A    Yes, I did.
22        Q    All right.  And who made up those T-shirts?
23        A    I did.
24        Q    And what did those T-shirts say?
25        A    "One city, one cult, no future."  And on the back
 1   it said -- I think, if it was in 2000 -- maybe it said
 2   "Clearwater 2000 or Clearwater '99."  I don't recall what it
 3   said on the back exactly.
 4        Q    And did you or anyone else pay them anything?
 5        A    Pay them anything?
 6        Q    Yeah.  The kids.  Did you give the kids anything?
 7        A    I didn't pay the kids anything, no, sir.
 8        Q    I said anyone else?  That you know --
 9        A    I don't know what anyone else would have done.  I
10   only know what I did or didn't do.
11        Q    Now, this is your idea of an anti-Scientology op,
12   isn't it?
13        A    Anti-Scientology would be an incorrect
14   characterization of what that was.
15        Q    Well, is it your idea of an op --
16             THE COURT:  What are you saying?  Op?
17             MR. WEINBERG:  Op.  Like an operation.
18             Remember he's talking -- he's been talking
19        about ops that he says OSA does, and all that stuff?
20             THE COURT:  Must have missed it, but --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
22             THE COURT:  -- if you say it's in the
23        transcript, then I'll read it.
24             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, remember he said, noisy
25        op?
 1             THE WITNESS:  That was investigation.
 2             THE COURT:  He said noisy investigation.
 3             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Well, I'll change --
 5        Q    Well, was this your idea of an operation against
 6   Scientology?
 7        A    When I was in Scientology, I never picketed
 8   anybody that was against Scientology, so I don't -- I
 9   don't -- I don't know what you're asking me.
10        Q    I'm asking you, is this part of your plan to -- to
11   have -- to make as much noise as possible to disrupt
12   Scientology --
13        A    No.
14        Q    -- in Clearwater?
15        A    No.
16        Q    Now, were you all trying to cause a scene?
17        A    No.
18        Q    Were you trying to demean David Miscavige?
19        A    Was I trying to demean David Miscavige?
20        Q    Yes.
21        A    No.
22        Q    So when you had the kids say "Davy the dwarf.
23   Davy the dwarf.  Davy the dwarf," you didn't think that was
24   demeaning to Mr. Miscavige.
25        A    That wasn't my intention for saying it.
 1        Q    Well, what was your intention for telling the kids
 2   to scream "Davy the dwarf.  Davy the dwarf"?
 3        A    My initial intention was to exercise my First
 4   Amendment right of free speech and possibly have someone
 5   within the building ask a question as to why I was there.
 6             THE COURT:  You know, Mr. Oliver, please don't
 7        think I'm a fool.  I mean, there are certain --
 8        certain things that -- there's all kinds of reasons
 9        for a picket.
10             Of course, a picket, first and foremost, is
11        someone's First Amendment right.  But we don't stop
12        them unless they disturb the peace and on and on.
13             There are other reasons for them.
14             I mean, you wouldn't have somebody saying "Davy
15        the dwarf" unless it was a demeaning term.  You
16        wouldn't have them say -- Mr. Miscavige is the
17        ecclesiastical leader of the Church of Scientology.
18        You have them say "Davy the dwarf" because that is a
19        little demeaning, isn't it?
20             THE WITNESS:  Much like Mr. Weinberg calling me
21        a punk the other day.
22             THE COURT:  That -- and that was demeaning too,
23        wasn't it?
24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it was, your Honor.
25             THE COURT:  All right.  So let's not play games
 1        here.  When he says, "Was that demeaning," well, the
 2        answer to that is, of course, "Yes.  It was
 3        demeaning."  It was meant to be demeaning.  You have
 4        the right to be demeaning.  In our country you have
 5        the First Amendment right to say things that are not
 6        particularly complimentary.
 7             But don't sit there and tell me that it wasn't
 8        demeaning.  "Davy the dwarf --" if it were me,
 9        "Susan the fat judge" or whatever, I wouldn't like
10        it.  It would be demeaning.  So I assume if he were
11        to hear it, he would be demeaned or annoyed or -- or
12        whatever; and I assume that those who are followers
13        of the Church of Scientology would not want to hear
14        this.  And that was part of the reason for saying
15        it.
16             THE WITNESS:  Correct, your Honor.
17             THE COURT:  Okay.  So don't play me for an
18        idiot here.
19             THE WITNESS:  No, your Honor.
21        Q    Now, when you all moved from the front of the Ft.
22   Harrison to across the street on Watterson from the
23   Clearwater Bank Building, that was the entrance that all the
24   crew, all the staff members of Scientology who got off those
25   buses go three times a day to eat, correct?  You knew that.
 1             THE COURT:  I don't think they were eating
 2        then, were they, Counselor?  It seemed to me like it
 3        was pretty dark.
 4             MR. WEINBERG:  It was in December, so it's like
 5        5:30 at night.
 6             THE COURT:  Okay.  I did not see buses
 7        unloading in this particular --
 8             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, right at the end, a big
 9        bus came up.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  And that's where the people --
12             THE COURT:  Might have been at the end, but I
13        didn't see it during that particular picket.
15        Q    Do you remember, during the video, Mr. Oliver,
16   that you or Mr. Minton said, "Let's go over to the
17   Clearwater Bank Building and," I don't know, "give them a
18   digestion problem or something like that," because that's
19   when they were going to arrive to eat?  Do you remember
20   saying this or doing that?
21        A    I can't recall who brought that to my attention,
22   that they were having dinner or coming out of dinner.  I
23   can't recall who was it told me that.  But yes, I did say
24   something to that effect on the videotape about assisting in
25   their digestion.
 1        Q    Oh.  And so that was one of the places that people
 2   from the Lisa McPherson Trust would picket oftentime at
 3   feeding time; lunchtime or dinnertime, correct?
 4        A    I don't know about people from the Lisa McPherson
 5   Trust.  I can only speak for myself.
 6        Q    Now, it was derogatory to get these kids to chant
 7   "psychs rule," correct?  That was -- that would be very
 8   derogatory to any Scientologists who are -- who are -- who
 9   would be bitterly opposed to psychiatry, correct?
10             THE COURT:  Where is that on the transcript?
11             I remember "SPs rule."
12             MR. WEINBERG:  It's there.  It's --
14        Q    At the beginning the kids -- 'cause they didn't
15   understand it, were saying "Rule psychs."  Right?  Do you
16   remember that, Mr. Oliver?
17        A    No.  I don't remember that.
18        Q    And at the end do you remember they were -- they
19   were chanting, "Psychs rule."  Do you remember that?
20        A    I remember seeing that on the videotape, correct.
21        Q    Okay.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  I'll find it for you, your
23        Honor.
24             THE COURT:  I see it.  I see it.
 2        Q    And the idea of that was to -- to irritate
 3   Scientologists who would be opposed to psychiatry?
 4             THE COURT:  You know, Counselor, you're really
 5        beating a dead horse.
 6             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
 7             THE COURT:  It really is demeaning me to think
 8        that you have got that -- I've got to sit here and
 9        listen to you ask this fellow --
10             MR. WEINBERG:  You're right.
11             THE COURT:  -- a whole bunch of these
12        questions.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Just a couple of more questions.
15        Q    The -- you saw Ms. Greenway in the tape, correct?
16        A    Yes.
17        Q    And when you were explaining at the beginning of
18   the tape to the kids about how Scientology, you said,
19   takes --
20             THE COURT:  You call these people kids.  In all
21        fairness, these are -- these are -- these are big --
22        teenagers, it looked like to me.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  Well, that's sort
24        of --
25             THE COURT:  Great big --
 1             MR. WEINBERG:  I prefer --
 2             THE COURT:  I don't know what their age was,
 3        but they're not kids.  When I hear kids, I think of
 4        eight or 10-year olds.
 5             MR. WEINBERG:  Oh.  Well, certainly not that.
 6        I -- I think of my own -- when I had teenagers, as
 7        kids, so --
 8             I'll say teenagers.
10        Q    When you were explaining to these teenagers that
11   Scientology takes advantage of people; they break up
12   families; they take a lot of money from them, those
13   things -- when you were explaining that to them, was that
14   your black propaganda against the church?
15        A    No.  That was the truth.
16             THE COURT:  Okay.  This would be a good time to
17        break for lunch.
18             We're going to -- we need to move along, so I'm
19        going to try to get us back at 1:30.  No later than
20        that.  Be in recess till 1:30.
21               (A recess was taken at 12:15 p.m.)
 2                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
 4   STATE OF FLORIDA         )
 6             I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was
     authorized to and did stenographically report the
 7   proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and
     complete record of my stenographic notes.
               I further certify that I am not a relative,
 9   employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
     I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
10   counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
     interested in the action.
12   WITNESS my hand and official seal this 15th day of July,
13   2002.
15                             ______________________________
                               DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR

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