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           1        IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
                                  CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
           2
           3
           4
                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
           5    Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,
           6
           7              Plaintiff,
           8    vs.                                     VOLUME 3
           9    CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
                SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
          10    JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
          11
                          Defendants.
          12
                _______________________________________/
          13
          14
          15    PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
          16
                CONTENTS:           Testimony of Kennan G. Dandar.
          17
                DATE:               July 17, 2002.  Afternoon Session.
          18
                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
          19                        St. Petersburg, Florida.
          20    BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
                                    Circuit Judge.
          21
                REPORTED BY:        Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
          22                        Deputy Official Court Reporter,
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
          23
          24
          25
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           1    APPEARANCES:
           2    MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
                DANDAR & DANDAR
           3    5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
                Tampa, FL 33602
           4    Attorney for Plaintiff.
           5    MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
                LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
           6    112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
                Tampa, FL 33602-4108
           7    Attorney for Plaintiff.
           8    MR. KENDRICK MOXON
                MOXON & KOBRIN
           9    1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
                Clearwater, FL 33755
          10    Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
                Organization.
          11
          12    MR. LEE FUGATE
                MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
          13    ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
                101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
          14    Tampa, FL 33602-5147
                Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
          15    Organization.
          16
                MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
          17    RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
                740 Broadway at Astor Place
          18    New York, NY 10003-9518
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
          19    Organization.
          20
                MR. ANTHONY BATTAGLIA
          21    MR. STEPHEN J. WEIN
                Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
          22    980 Tyrone Boulevard
                St. Petersburg, Florida  33710
          23    Counsel for Robert Minton.
          24
          25
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           1              THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Dandar, you may
           2         return.
           3              MR. DANDAR:  Thank you.
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  I had to get Mr. Fugate.  He
           5         wanted to address a few things.
           6              MR. FUGATE:  The first thing you asked me to
           7         address, would I contact the lawyers in the July 2nd
           8         letter from Mr. Dandar to the Bar.  And I have done
           9         that.  I have asked Mr. Rosen, I have asked
          10         Ms. Yingling and, of course, everybody else is here.
          11         And they do not object to -- they waive their
          12         confidentiality.  That is number one.
          13              Number two, on the issue that came up
          14         regarding -- two things that came up regarding the
          15         comments -- or questions you posed to me about not
          16         following or not -- trying to get around your order
          17         or the Second District Court of Appeals' order.
          18              Mr. Pope basically filed the proceeding that
          19         you heard about from Mr. Dandar in front of Judge
          20         Jenkins before you entered your order on May 27 and
          21         filed it, basically to go over -- for the purpose of
          22         recording and certifying the judgments.  And I will
          23         bring him in and address that today in rebuttal.
          24              And, thirdly, the order -- the motion that you
          25         were asking me about is the one that he filed.  And
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           1         he will address that and tell you that there was an
           2         accounting ordered.  He asked it be expedited, was
           3         mindful of your order and the Second District -- the
           4         2d DCA order and said basically I want this in
           5         camera so it is done to preserve the record but I
           6         don't want to interfere with your order or the
           7         Second District order.  I want to clear that up.
           8              Lastly, Mr. Dandar asked not to have to answer
           9         a question as to who he spoke to in law enforcement.
          10         There is an issue I want to ask the Court to
          11         reconsider on that.  And it is this.  When I came up
          12         at the end of the day -- and I couldn't tell you now
          13         which day it was -- I said, "I have got this
          14         problem.  I'm trying to get these two folks served."
          15              And Mr. Dandar said, "Well, I spoke to Lee
          16         Strope.  I already talked to him," told you and I
          17         that at the bench.
          18              I think that must be who he's talking about.  I
          19         really don't care except that I want to make a
          20         Freedom of Information Act request to see if there
          21         are any reports for the purpose of the rebuttal.
          22              I have done that with what Mr. Prince said and
          23         I have rebuttal testimony to put on to your Honor --
          24         or before your Honor that relates to what Mr. Prince
          25         said happened with -- with Lee Strope.  And I
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           1         think -- I think if we ask Mr. Dandar who it was he
           2         talked to, and if he says it's Lee Strope, that
           3         would be encompassed in the letter that I have from
           4         the custodian of records.
           5              And our solution for Lee Strope, since he's on
           6         vacation, or at least out of the office through the
           7         22nd, rather than delay the proceedings before your
           8         Honor, if we're about to conclude today or tomorrow,
           9         what I would propose, unless there is an objection,
          10         is that we take a deposition of Mr. Strope in that
          11         area, and whatever he says under oath with
          12         Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot present we provide to the
          13         Court as an exhibit, you know, after the hearing is
          14         concluded or just have permission to include it.
          15              That way, you've got it, they have the right to
          16         be present, but we don't delay the hearing to wait
          17         for him to come back, because I have no clue, if he
          18         comes back on the 22nd, whether I could serve him or
          19         not.  And, you know, I certainly won't ask to have
          20         the Court wait until the 22nd or 23rd or 24th to
          21         bring him in.
          22              So those are all my areas I wanted to cover.
          23              THE COURT:  Okay.  As far as the privilege,
          24         then everybody has waived it.  Mr. Dandar waived it
          25         before lunch, all of the lawyers waived it.  So you
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           1         may feel free, if it is relevant, to go ahead and go
           2         into this letter.
           3              As to the second matter as far as Mr. Strope's
           4         deposition, as to whether or not he was contacted, I
           5         have no problem with him being asked that.  I have
           6         no problem with him submitting an affidavit, as far
           7         as that is concerned, if he was or was not
           8         contacted.
           9              Mr. Dandar, why is it you don't want to
          10         disclose what law enforcement official you
          11         contacted -- officer or whatever?
          12              MR. DANDAR:  At their request.
          13              THE COURT:  At their request?
          14              MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, your Honor, I should be
          16         able to -- I mean, first of all, there is no
          17         privilege there, I don't believe.
          18              Secondly, it -- it is absolutely relevant to
          19         what is going on in this proceeding if Mr. Dandar is
          20         making accusations to law enforcement or seeking
          21         investigations against my client or me to law
          22         enforcement.
          23              We should be able to, A, find out who the
          24         agency is, B, what it was that he told him or gave
          25         him or submitted to him.  There is no privilege as
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           1         to that.  And he stands up here, having accused
           2         David Miscavige of murder, having accused all of the
           3         lawyers who are participating, in extortion and
           4         blackmail, having accused the client of extortion
           5         and blackmail, and he's reluctant to tell us what
           6         law enforcement agency or agent he recently, while
           7         this proceeding was going on -- these proceedings
           8         were going on, made -- requested to do an
           9         investigation, whatever?  I don't know what he told
          10         us.
          11              THE COURT:  What is the relevance to this
          12         proceeding about that even?  I mean, I presume the
          13         only thing that makes it relevant is that you asked
          14         him whether, if he had all this information
          15         regarding so-called crimes, he reported it.  He said
          16         he did.
          17              Now it seems like you want to follow it up
          18         somehow or another --
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I mean, was the purpose
          20         to -- to put pressure on the Church to back off of
          21         this proceeding?
          22              THE COURT:  Apparently not.  I mean, the Church
          23         didn't even know about it.  So I'm not going to
          24         require -- if he said law enforcement asked him not
          25         to reveal that, to me, it is a very minimal
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           1         significance.  I mean --
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, could I --
           3              THE COURT:  He said he contacted law
           4         enforcement.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, could I inquire as to what
           6         he told him?
           7              THE COURT:  Sure.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
           9              MR. FUGATE:  Well, Judge, I'll sit down, but --
          10              THE COURT:  This is really sort of irrelevant.
          11         It's like you are trying to pursue something that
          12         really -- you asked him almost like the answer
          13         should have been, "No, I didn't."
          14              Then it gets, like, "Oh, you thought you had
          15         all this information regarding crimes and you didn't
          16         even report it to the Bar?  You didn't even report
          17         it to law enforcement?"
          18              Well, he did, he says.
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  I guess I would put it a
          20         different way -- I would put it a different way.  He
          21         talks about pattern and practice.  The pattern and
          22         practice in this case, I think, from the beginning
          23         of this case, is for Mr. Dandar to make false
          24         allegations against my client, me and others.  And
          25         we talked about all of the incidents, whether it is
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           1         the E-meter or the document that -- the statement
           2         that supposedly ended up from his office in the
           3         FDLE, and all these other allegations.
           4              I mean, he talks about pattern and practice.
           5         Well, here he's the one who has been making
           6         allegations which -- which are false throughout this
           7         proceeding, not to mention the main accusation,
           8         false accusation, that David Miscavige was part --
           9         made a decision to let Lisa McPherson die.
          10              That is the relevance.
          11              THE COURT:  That is the relevance to this
          12         hearing.  As far as whether he reported what he
          13         perceived to be a crime to a law enforcement agency
          14         would be only relevant if he made that allegation
          15         and did not.  He said he did.  Whether they are
          16         doing anything about it, who would know?
          17              MR. FUGATE:  Could we just get it dated then,
          18         Judge?
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm going to ask the questions.
          20              MR. FUGATE:  All right.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  I'll --
          22              THE COURT:  Actually, you can ask him what he
          23         said in some brief summary.  But it just is not
          24         relevant.  You have got to conclude these
          25         proceedings.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  And I don't have very much more
           2         to ask him.
           3              THE COURT:  Then ask it.
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm going to.
           5              THE COURT:  But it's going to be real quick
           6         because I already told you it has minimal, if any,
           7         relevance.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
           9    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          10         Q    Now, you have in front of you the letter of
          11    July 2, 2002 that you sent to the Florida Bar, is that
          12    right?
          13         A    Exhibit 273?
          14         Q    Right.
          15              THE COURT:  Is that the number?
          16              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.  Your Honor, I offer that
          18         into evidence.  I have just a few questions about
          19         it.
          20              THE COURT:  Okay.
          21    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          22         Q    Now, if you go to Page 2 of this letter, on the
          23    top paragraph you say, "These notes --" referring to some
          24    lawyer notes, "and Ms. Yingling's testimony provide the
          25    elements to support my position that Mr. Minton is now lying
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           1    to the Court as part of his secret deal with Scientology to
           2    make the death case go away.  This is extortion."
           3              That is what you said.  Right?
           4         A    Yes.  And "these notes" refers to Ms. Yingling's
           5    typed notes that were introduced into evidence in this
           6    hearing.
           7         Q    Then if you drop down a paragraph, you say, "The
           8    Church of Scientology, in its fear of losing the McPherson
           9    wrongful death case, has used the services of its lawyers,
          10    both Monique Yingling in Washington --"
          11              THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Where are you reading?
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.  The next paragraph
          13         on Page 2.
          14              THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.
          15    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          16         Q    "The Church of Scientology, in its fear of losing
          17    the McPherson wrongful death case, has used the services of
          18    its lawyers, both Monique Yingling in Washington, D.C. and
          19    Samuel Rosen in New York City, and now Mr. Pope in
          20    Clearwater, to promulgate the tactic of getting rid of the
          21    attorney since it cannot get rid of the case.
          22              "Of course, the attorneys representing the Church
          23    of Scientology Flag Service Organization before Judge
          24    Schaeffer are also guilty of this same illegal and unethical
          25    behavior, not disclosing the Mary Carter agreement that the
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           1    Church of Scientology has with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks to
           2    the Court and now to the Florida Bar."
           3              You made that allegation, correct?
           4         A    It's in black and white.  Yes.
           5         Q    Then you go to Page 5, third paragraph --
           6              THE COURT:  What is the Mary Carter agreement?
           7              THE WITNESS:  It's an agreement where a party
           8         makes a secret deal, usually with the plaintiff and
           9         one defendant, and they make a secret deal outside
          10         the knowledge of the Court.  The party being sued
          11         makes -- making the secret deal comes in, testifies,
          12         and -- testifies favorably to the other party to the
          13         Mary Carter agreement.
          14              And Mary Carter agreement comes from the Mary
          15         Carter Paint Company case.
          16              THE COURT:  Mary Carter is some term of --
          17              THE WITNESS:  Because of the case, 1993 Supreme
          18         Court decision, that said it is illegal and
          19         unethical for a lawyer to participate in such a
          20         thing.
          21    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          22         Q    This secret deal you are talking about is the deal
          23    Mr. Minton says it isn't so and Ms. Brooks says it isn't so
          24    and Ms. Yingling said it isn't so, correct, under oath, all
          25    agree it is not true under oath?
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           1         A    I would not agree with that statement.
           2         Q    If you go to Page 5, the first sentence of the
           3    third paragraph that begins, "I demand --" you said, "I
           4    demand that the Bar take a broad approach and encompass all
           5    of the attorneys involved in litigating against the estate
           6    of Lisa McPherson."  Correct?
           7         A    I mean, you just keep reading my letter?  My
           8    letter is correct.  Everything I said in there.
           9         Q    The purpose of that statement and the one I read
          10    before is to urge the Bar to investigate all of the lawyers
          11    involved in this case, even though you didn't name us by
          12    name.  Correct?
          13         A    Correct.
          14         Q    Now, if you go to Page 5, the next-to-last
          15    paragraph --
          16              THE COURT:  Counsel, honestly --
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  This is my last thing, your
          18         Honor, on this letter.
          19    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          20         Q    You say, "Mr. Pope individually and on behalf of
          21    his client, Church of Scientology, has promulgated a charade
          22    before the Florida Bar on his complaint against me, as well
          23    as a charade before the courts in the three cases pending in
          24    Pinellas County.  This charade has caused --"
          25              THE COURT:  What Mr. Pope has done has zero
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           1         relevance to this case.
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  No, but this Court -- this is --
           3    BY MR. WEINBERG:
           4         Q    You were talking about this case in front of Judge
           5    Schaeffer being part of the charade?
           6         A    No.  That is just the opposite.  The wrongful
           7    death case is the truth.  What you are doing with Mr. Minton
           8    is the charade.  And "charade" is a word that the Florida
           9    Supreme Court uses for Mary Carter agreements.
          10              You are trying to not tell this -- you are trying
          11    to not tell this Court and you didn't tell Judge Baird you
          12    had this secret agreement with Mr. Minton, that he does
          13    admit to, by the way, it comes out in Ms. Yingling's notes,
          14    it's his deal to make this case go away to use any means
          15    possible.  You heard that from Nancy Many, to use any means
          16    possible to get rid of this case.
          17              The charade is not telling the Court about your
          18    secret deal with Mr. Minton.  That is the charade.  And that
          19    is the word the Florida Supreme Court used.
          20         Q    Well, you got a letter from -- from Mr. Jonas --
          21              THE COURT:  That is really all I want to hear
          22         about this.
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
          24              THE COURT:  Because this is just irrelevant.  I
          25         do want to know, though, this Florida Bar
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           1         2002-1139713B inquiry complaint of F.W. Pope.  So I
           2         presume you are responding to an allegation against
           3         you.
           4              THE WITNESS:  Right.  Mr. Pope is the one that
           5         filed this.
           6              THE COURT:  Right.  So this whole letter is in
           7         response -- his defense to a complaint filed against
           8         him, I gather.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  Then this letter is used
          10         purportedly to make a complaint against Mr. Pope and
          11         others, some of which are named and some are not
          12         named.
          13              THE WITNESS:  But I have been told by the
          14         Florida Bar that is not proper procedure.  I have to
          15         fill out the form and fill out my own complaint.  So
          16         right now there is no complaint pending against
          17         Mr. Pope or any of the other attorneys.
          18    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          19         Q    Now, when you speak of charade as far as the
          20    Court, remember the other day Judge Schaeffer asked you
          21    about the quotation in the -- in the -- you being quoted in
          22    the recent article in the St. Pete Times where you were --
          23    where you were quoted as saying, "They are committing a
          24    charade on the Court.  They have Minton coming in as if he
          25    were this pitiful lying witness who wanted to come clean."
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           1              Do you remember being asked those questions?  And
           2    the question the Court posed to you was --
           3              THE COURT:  This was some discussion, I think,
           4         in court?  Is that what you're talking about?
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
           6              THE COURT:  What would that have to do with
           7         anything?
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, the question was whether
           9         he talked to the press.  And he said he had
          10         testified about it.
          11    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          12         Q    And my question was we've looked at the record and
          13    we don't see any mention of charade in the record.
          14         A    What is the date of the article?
          15         Q    Just a few weeks ago.
          16              MR. FUGATE:  July 7.
          17    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          18         Q    July 7?
          19         A    So, I don't know.  I mean, I don't know.
          20         Q    Now, you remember --
          21              THE COURT:  The suggestion is that, Counsel,
          22         obviously you did talk to the press because there is
          23         nothing in the record that they could have gotten
          24         that quote from.
          25              THE WITNESS:  Well, that is true.  If there is
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           1         nothing in the record where I'm using the word
           2         "charade," then, you know, the reporter was sitting
           3         back there a few days, so -- she talked to everyone.
           4         You know, I stand corrected if I talked to her off
           5         the record.  I just don't recall doing that, using
           6         that word with her.
           7    BY MR. WEINBERG:
           8         Q    You think what is going on here is a charade?
           9         A    Absolutely.  It's shameful.
          10         Q    Now, you remember the March 30 letter, 2002 letter
          11    that you sent to Mr. Minton which is Exhibit -- your Exhibit
          12    76?
          13              THE COURT:  Could you show it to him?
          14         A    The blood and death letter?
          15    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          16         Q    Yes.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  Madam Clerk -- could I have the
          18         clerk -- could I have Plaintiff's 76?
          19              THE COURT:  Unless he remembers it.  But if he
          20         does, I don't --
          21    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          22         Q    Remember the blood on your --
          23         A    Yes, there is the blood and death letter, quoting
          24    Mr. Minton.
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Could somebody give me a copy?
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           1         Obviously I have the wrong exhibit number.  What is
           2         the exhibit number?  Maybe it is Defense 76.  I
           3         thought it was Plaintiff's 76.
           4         A    I think it is defense.  I couldn't find it.
           5              THE COURT:  Whatever the number is, this is
           6         already in evidence?
           7              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.  Mr. Minton talked about it
           8         and Mr. Dandar talked about it.
           9    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          10         Q    Specifically --
          11              THE COURT:  There must be some rebuttal reason
          12         to go back into it?
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  There is.
          14    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          15         Q    Now, you wrote this letter on March 30 to
          16    Mr. Minton, after you had talked to him on both the 28th and
          17    29th of March, following his two days of meetings with the
          18    Church lawyers.  Correct?
          19         A    Well, specifically after March 29th.
          20         Q    Now, if you go to Page 2 of the letter, the one,
          21    two, three, fourth paragraph, which is the first long
          22    paragraph, the last three sentences, you say, "Dismissing
          23    the case because Scientology is attempting to extort and
          24    blackmail you is a request I cannot nor will ever honor.
          25    From what I know so far, it is my opinion that Scientology
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           1    and its counsel are blackmailing and extorting you.  I am
           2    outraged.  But then I have no respect for anyone who works
           3    for Scientology."
           4              You said that, correct?
           5         A    Yes, I did.
           6         Q    So immediately --
           7         A    Actually, I wrote that.
           8         Q    Immediately you were making accusations of
           9    extortion and blackmail.  Right?
          10         A    Well, it is based upon my conversation the night
          11    before with Mr. Jonas, Mr. Minton's lawyer, as well as
          12    Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks.
          13         Q    Now, then you were in court -- in this court on
          14    April 5, 2002, a few days later, when Mr. Minton had his
          15    contempt trial in front of Judge Schaeffer.  Correct?  You
          16    were there?
          17         A    Yes.
          18         Q    Now, and at that point you had already decided
          19    that what was going on in New York was blackmail and
          20    extortion.  Correct?
          21         A    Yes.  But it was unsuccessful as far as I knew
          22    then.
          23         Q    But you didn't say anything to Judge Schaeffer --
          24    I mean, you haven't been reluctant to accuse the Church and
          25    its lawyers of misconduct in this case, have you?
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           1         A    Oh, I have been extremely reluctant to accuse the
           2    lawyers of misconduct.  But -- because the lawyers are
           3    officers of the court.  But I'm not reluctant to accuse the
           4    Church, that has a criminal history of misconduct.
           5         Q    Now --
           6         A    And when it is used against me, my wife, my
           7    daughter, my law firm, my secretaries, over and over and
           8    over again, yeah, I'm not reluctant to go after the Church
           9    for that.
          10         Q    Now, when you were in this court on April 5, a few
          11    days after you wrote that March 30 letter to Mr. Minton, you
          12    didn't tell Judge Schaeffer that there was extortion and
          13    blackmail going on that was -- that was being perpetrated on
          14    Mr. Minton by the Church of Scientology, did you, sir?
          15         A    No.  That would have been reckless.  I mean, I
          16    just had one conversation with Mr. Minton and his lawyer in
          17    a separate conversation.  That would have been reckless for
          18    me to come into open court and accuse the Church of
          19    extortion and blackmail then.  But now I know a lot more.
          20         Q    And, of course, you hadn't gone to law enforcement
          21    at that point?
          22         A    No.
          23              THE COURT:  This is really so irrelevant.
          24              THE WITNESS:  But it shows you, Judge, that I
          25         did go to law enforcement.  So now I'm being accused
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           1         of not going to law enforcement.
           2              THE COURT:  I know.  If you say something, you
           3         get one thing.  If you don't say something, you get
           4         something else.
           5    BY MR. WEINBERG:
           6         Q    Well, the point is you didn't think -- you said it
           7    was unsuccessful.  You didn't think that Bob Minton,
           8    particularly after being acquitted by Judge Schaeffer on
           9    the -- the April 3rd --
          10         A    5th.
          11         Q    Acquitted by Judge Schaeffer on April 5, and the
          12    April 3rd DCA -- 2d DCA opinion, you didn't think that Bob
          13    Minton would ever come forward and produce that $500,000
          14    check, did you, sir?
          15         A    That doesn't go together.  That is -- I can't make
          16    sense of that.
          17              MR. LIROT:  That is asking for speculation.
          18              THE COURT:  Sustained.  Sustained.  Save it,
          19         Counsel.  Thank you.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  One last area.  Do
          21         you have -- do you have Mr. Minton's fifth --
          22              THE COURT:  Yes.
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  -- affidavit up there,
          24         Mr. Dandar?
          25              THE COURT:  I do.  And it says Number 264.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
           2              THE WITNESS:  No, I don't.
           3              THE COURT:  At least that is what I wrote.
           4    BY MR. WEINBERG:
           5         Q    You don't have a copy up there?
           6              THE COURT:  Do you-all have a copy back there?
           7              MR. LIROT:  We do, Judge.
           8              THE COURT:  Do you have a copy for the witness?
           9         They don't have to give up their copy.  The witness
          10         should have one.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  You are right.  We need to get a
          12         copy of the affidavit.  Here.  I have got a copy.
          13    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          14         Q    Now, Mr. Dandar, Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks have
          15    denied under oath that there was any extortion or blackmail
          16    by the Church on them.  Correct?
          17         A    I would expect them to deny it.
          18         Q    And Monique Yingling has denied there was any
          19    extortion or blackmail, from the meetings that she
          20    participated in, both in New York and in Florida.  Correct?
          21         A    Of course.  She participated in it.  She would
          22    deny it.
          23         Q    But what Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks did say under
          24    oath, and in their affidavits which were also under oath,
          25    that Mr. Minton had become increasingly concerned about what
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           1    was going on in the court proceedings as it related to him
           2    in the way of discovery orders and contempt.  He said that,
           3    didn't he?
           4         A    Sure.  Because you were getting closer and closer
           5    to his secrets in Switzerland.
           6         Q    And that he was concerned about going to jail.
           7    Right?
           8         A    That's right.  Because he didn't report his
           9    income.
          10         Q    And he dated that concern way back to August, the
          11    summer of 2001, didn't he?
          12         A    When you discovered Stacy Brooks opened her mouth
          13    about the wire transfer.  That was the big -- that was
          14    the -- probably the biggest -- the first of the big turning
          15    points.
          16              THE COURT:  What date was that?
          17              THE WITNESS:  August.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  August of 2001.
          19              THE WITNESS:  Then he cut me off.
          20    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          21         Q    That was my next question.  Then at that point you
          22    got the E-Mail -- you got the communication from Mr. Minton
          23    through both Mr. Merrett and Mr. Minton that they weren't --
          24    he wasn't going to provide you any more funds?
          25         A    No.  Just through Mr. Merrett.  Mr. Minton
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           1    wouldn't even talk to me.
           2         Q    Okay.  Now, and this was long before any
           3    suggestion that the Church of Scientology was extorting or
           4    blackmailing Mr. Minton with a $500,000 check.  Correct?
           5         A    Right.  They were only blackmailing him with this
           6    Nigerian government accusations.
           7         Q    And you're not suggesting that the Church was
           8    blackmailing him with the orders that the Church had
           9    received from Judge Moody, Judge Schaeffer, Judge Beach,
          10    Judge Quesada, are you?
          11         A    No, I'm not that naive.  But they were
          12    blackmailing him with his business associates, his Lexus
          13    dealership in New England, the business associate who lost
          14    millions of dollars and won't talk to him anymore.  And the
          15    things that they were doing in following his daughters
          16    wherever they went, and his family on vacations, like they
          17    followed me to the Cayman Islands in January of this year.
          18         Q    Now, if you go to Mr. Minton's affidavit, I'm
          19    going to go through a couple of these E-Mails -- a few of
          20    these E-Mails.
          21              And on Page 3, Subparagraph E, Mr. Minton says, "A
          22    copy of an E-Mail -- that this is a copy of an E-Mail, along
          23    with the routing header, an PGP," that is an acronym for
          24    Pretty Good Privacy, "encrypted version of the message which
          25    was received from John Merrett on August 23, 2001."
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           1              THE COURT:  Where are you, Counsel?
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry, the affidavit.  I was
           3         reading from Page 3 of the affidavit where he
           4         explains what the E-Mail is.  Then I was going to
           5         turn to the --
           6              THE COURT:  Okay.
           7    BY MR. WEINBERG:
           8         Q    I'll start that again.  Do you see Page 3E?
           9         A    Yes, I read it.  D like in dog?
          10         Q    E as in Edward.
          11         A    I'm sorry.
          12         Q    "A copy of an E-Mail, along with the routing
          13    header and PGP," I'll leave out what he says about PGP,
          14    "encrypted version of the message which was received from
          15    John Merrett on August 23rd, 2001.  I stored this on the
          16    hard drive of my computer when I received it and it is
          17    printed as it appeared when it was originally received and
          18    stored."
          19              Then he refers to Exhibit E.
          20              If you'll turn to Exhibit E, particularly turn to
          21    the second Page of Exhibit E, you'll see that it indicates
          22    an E-Mail from John Merrett and has his E-Mail address, to
          23    Stacy Brooks, copied to Bob Minton, at their E-Mail
          24    addresses, dated August 23, 2001.
          25              Do you see that?
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           1         A    I see the second encrypted page, yes.
           2         Q    Right.  With what I just read?
           3         A    With what you just read on the date.  Yes.
           4         Q    And now on the front page, first page, is the
           5    decrypted -- is that the right word, decrypted message of
           6    August 23rd and what -- and do you see that what Mr. Merrett
           7    says to Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton is, "The biggest danger in
           8    adding fuel to the 'Bob controls the litigation' claim which
           9    could expose Bob to financial risk either on the case itself
          10    (if not dismissed and goes badly) or on the abuse of process
          11    counterclaim (which could not be resolved by dismissal of
          12    the death case.)"
          13              THE COURT:  You read a couple words wrong
          14         there, Counsel.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Did I?
          16              THE COURT:  "The biggest danger in," you said
          17         "it is."  Then you said "could."  It should be
          18         "would."  It just says what it says.  I know it is
          19         not intentional.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  My eyes are not working very
          21         well.
          22              THE COURT:  Right.
          23    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          24         Q    "Two, the second concern is the continued vitality
          25    of the Baird case, breach of contract --"
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           1         A    Well, I have a problem with this, before you read
           2    it, because, number one, I don't agree with you that the
           3    first page of E is a copy of the second encrypted page.
           4              When you -- as far as I know, when you decrypt you
           5    get the header back on the page.  There is no header on
           6    this.  Anybody in the world could have typed up the first
           7    page of E.  So I'm not convinced that is what it is because,
           8    number one, I'm not involved in this communication and --
           9         Q    But Mr. Minton swears it is --
          10         A    Mr. Minton swears to a lot of things that aren't
          11    true.
          12              THE COURT:  I don't think -- I don't know why
          13         you are referring this -- this lawyer to some
          14         message that may or may not be the encrypted message
          15         that came from somebody else, not him?
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, we can -- we'll review it
          17         in our rebuttal case.  I wanted to show him what was
          18         going on in these E-Mails with regard to Mr. Minton
          19         back in August of 2001.  But we can do that in our
          20         rebuttal case and go over it with your Honor, back
          21         in August of 2001, which were consistent with what
          22         Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks have testified about.
          23              THE COURT:  There is a lot consistent with what
          24         Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton testified about.  There is
          25         a lot consistent with what Mr. Dandar testified
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           1         about.  If you want to make a closing argument --
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm really not.
           3              THE COURT:  -- don't use something Mr. Merrett
           4         wrote to Mr. Minton, maybe, to ask this witness
           5         about.
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  I mean, he might have seen it.
           7              THE COURT:  Then ask him that.  Then if he says
           8         yes, then we might could move on.  If he says no,
           9         that should be the end of the inquiry.
          10              Did you ever see this?
          11              THE WITNESS:  Never.
          12    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          13         Q    All right, turn to the affidavit again, and on
          14    Page 2 at the top.  And what Mr. Minton says is, "A draft
          15    version of the fifth amended complaint in the wrongful death
          16    case dated August 30, 1999 sent to me by E-Mail at the time
          17    by Ken Dandar.  This document is an ASCII --"
          18              Is that how to pronounce that, by the way?
          19         A    Yes.
          20         Q    "-- ASCII text version of a document that was
          21    originally word-processed.  Mr. Dandar sent the
          22    word-processed version of this draft to me as an E-Mail
          23    attachment.  I could not open the original word processed
          24    version --"
          25              THE COURT:  Come on.  Are you going to read
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           1         this?  Let him read this, then see whatever
           2         question --
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  I did when he was on the stand,
           4         I showed him this document.  And Mr. Dandar --
           5         remember, he said he went back to his firm and he
           6         couldn't find this version --
           7              THE COURT:  He said maybe he sent it to him and
           8         maybe he didn't was my recollection.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I thought his testimony is
          10         he didn't send any pleadings in advance to
          11         Mr. Minton.
          12              THE COURT:  I don't believe that was his
          13         testimony.  I think his testimony was he may have
          14         sent some.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, let me -- well, this is a
          16         very important one since it is the fifth amended
          17         complaint and sent before it was ever filed.
          18              THE WITNESS:  Well, you know, tell me, do you
          19         have the fifth amended -- the real fifth amended
          20         complaint?
          21    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          22         Q    I think that the first fifth amended complaint
          23    you'll find under Tab B, that that is essentially --
          24         A    I'm not sure because, again, it has that date at
          25    the top.
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           1         Q    I understand.  But I'm representing to you I
           2    prepared it, that is the same.
           3         A    Well, you know, if you compare these two
           4    documents, number one, I don't have -- I don't have the
           5    capability, as far as I know, to send anything ASCII.  I
           6    don't even know how you do that.  I get things that are
           7    ASCII but I have to convert them into Word Perfect.
           8              This first document I don't recognize at all
           9    coming from me whatsoever.  There is a lot of things on
          10    there that make no sense to me at all.  So I can't say under
          11    oath I sent this to anybody.
          12         Q    Well, will you deny under oath that you sent an
          13    advance draft of an earlier version of the fifth amended
          14    complaint to Mr. Minton?
          15              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I object.  That assumes
          16         facts not in evidence.  I don't think that was
          17         Mr. Dandar's testimony.  My recollection is he
          18         didn't know.
          19              THE COURT:  That is exactly what my
          20         recollection is.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  But I'm asking him now a
          22         specific question.
          23    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          24         Q    Did you --
          25              THE COURT:  You are asking him, "Will you deny
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           1         under oath."  Why would he deny it?  He already said
           2         he doesn't know if he did or not.
           3              THE WITNESS:  Well, I can tell you that this
           4         document, the first one, has a fraud claim, Count 9,
           5         and it has a breach of contract claim, Count 10.
           6              And I hate -- I know you're going to get all
           7         excited when I say this, but this looks like -- if
           8         this document came from me, it looks like someone
           9         got access to my computer somehow and copied it
          10         without my authority, if this is on my computer at
          11         all.
          12              The second document, again --
          13              THE COURT:  Was that complaint ever filed?
          14              THE WITNESS:  I can't say.  I don't know.  Of
          15         course, I filed a fifth amended complaint and I
          16         filed several versions of the fifth amended
          17         complaint.
          18              THE COURT:  This is not the version of the
          19         complaint that we're riding under here?
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  No, this is dated August 30,
          21         which is right after the Philadelphia meeting, right
          22         after the Prince affidavit, right before the final
          23         first version is filed on September 7.
          24              And Mr. Dandar made a big point about how
          25         Mr. Minton had no interest in the litigation.  And
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           1         what Mr. Minton's affidavit says is that, "I
           2         received from Mr. Dandar on September 1 this
           3         August 30 version of what was being considered as
           4         the first -- as the fifth amended complaint that was
           5         going to be filed."
           6              THE WITNESS:  So why don't you produce the
           7         E-Mail if I sent it to him by E-Mail?  That is how
           8         easy this is.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  He explains that in his
          10         affidavit.
          11              MR. LIROT:  With no backup.
          12              THE COURT:  So the deal is move on to the next
          13         question.  He can't say whether he sent this or not,
          14         apparently.
          15              THE WITNESS:  I doubt it, because this doesn't
          16         look like mine because of these extra two counts at
          17         the end that make no sense.  You know, I just --
          18         this doesn't look like anything I did.
          19              THE COURT:  Am I wrong about your testimony?
          20         Was your testimony, Mr. Dandar, the first, second or
          21         third time you were on the stand, that you may have
          22         sent him some documents in advance, you're not sure?
          23              THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure.  But if I did, I'm
          24         certainly not sending them to him to get his
          25         approval for anything.  You know, I don't know.
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           1         But -- this has been going on three months, I'm kind
           2         of weary.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Those are all my questions.
           4              THE COURT:  All right.
           5              Redirect?
           6              MR. LIROT:  Thank you, Judge.
           7              THE COURT:  Can you tell me -- since you
           8         compared this, can you tell me about --
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Which one are we talking about
          10         now?
          11              THE COURT:  -- Number A attached to
          12         Mr. Minton's first affidavit.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  That is different.
          14              THE COURT:  Was this ever filed?
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  No.  What was filed was on
          16         September 7, as part of the motion to -- what do you
          17         call it -- to --
          18              THE COURT:  Amend?
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  -- to amend, right, a copy of
          20         what is Exhibit B.
          21              THE COURT:  So this document, Number A, has
          22         never been filed in any court?
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  No, it is a draft, apparently.
          24         And Mr. Minton says, "I received it from Mr. Dandar
          25         on September 1, it is an August 30 draft," which we
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           1         believe would certainly be relevant as to the
           2         involvement of Mr. Minton in the case.
           3              THE COURT:  Okay.  Make your point in closing
           4         argument.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  I will.
           6              THE COURT:  Redirect or whatever it is.
           7              MR. WEINBERG:  Just to answer your question,
           8         your Honor, this is what they handed to me when this
           9         motion was filed -- if I can approach you -- on
          10         September 7 --
          11              THE COURT:  My question was whether this was
          12         ever filed.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  That is what I'm saying, I'm
          14         showing you what was filed.  When the motion was
          15         filed to amend on September 7, attached as an
          16         exhibit was this, seeking approval to file it, which
          17         was the fifth amended complaint, which is in a
          18         different form than A.
          19              THE COURT:  Not the same complaint?
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  It's a slightly -- I mean, it's
          21         a somewhat different version.
          22              THE COURT:  Okay.
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  In other words, that would be a
          24         draft.  A would be a draft.
          25              THE WITNESS:  Judge, Exhibit B that they
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           1         attached, which is actually something you can read
           2         but I still don't recognize the date in the top
           3         left-hand corner, but Mr. Minton -- even Mr. Minton
           4         in this affidavit states he got a copy of this
           5         complaint in November of '99, well after the --
           6         months after it was filed, when the amended
           7         complaint was filed.
           8              THE COURT:  You can save that for your closing
           9         argument.
          10              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Just wanted to point it
          11         out.
          12              THE COURT:  All right.
          13                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    Mr. Dandar, Mr. Weinberg was asking you about some
          16    of the affidavits filed by Mr. Prince.  And I believe there
          17    was some concern over the affidavit filed in, I think it
          18    was, the Wollersheim case.
          19              Did you have an opportunity to review those
          20    affidavits?
          21         A    I can't sit here and tell you I did.  You mean
          22    before I filed Mr. Prince's affidavit to add on parties?  Or
          23    when I first met Mr. Prince?
          24         Q    Well, did you have an opportunity to review these
          25    and verify whether they were consistent with any of the
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           1    other information that Mr. Prince was providing you?
           2         A    Well, they're all consistent.
           3              THE COURT:  Was this before he filed the
           4         complaint in question, that being the fifth amended
           5         complaint?
           6              MR. LIROT:  That is correct, your Honor.  I
           7         should qualify.
           8              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, at that point in
           9         time -- and he just verified it again -- Mr. Prince
          10         always testified in these declarations consistent
          11         with the affidavit that he prepared for this case.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    And when Mr. Prince was actually providing
          14    services to you as a consultant or an expert witness, was
          15    there a condition that he not participate in any other
          16    litigation?
          17         A    No.  No.  Independent contractor.
          18         Q    Was there any condition that he not provide
          19    services to the LMT at any point that he assisted you?
          20         A    No.
          21         Q    Did you ever require him to waive any First
          22    Amendment rights he may have to criticize any issue?
          23         A    No.
          24         Q    Now, was there anything of concern to you
          25    receiving any information from Teresa Summers or other
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           1    people that might have expressed interest in the Lisa
           2    McPherson wrongful death case?
           3         A    No.  I was hoping people would send me
           4    information.  And people have sent me information from all
           5    over -- all over the globe.  Honestly.
           6         Q    Was the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust to
           7    provide some sort of umbrella source of information just to
           8    you for the wrongful death case?
           9         A    No.  Not at all.
          10         Q    Now, Mr. Weinberg -- this was Exhibit Number
          11    267 -- I'll go ahead and pass that up, Judge.
          12              This was the information that was faxed to the
          13    State Attorney's Office.  Do you recognize that?
          14         A    Well, this looks like my paralegal's handwriting
          15    on the fax cover sheet.  And, of course, the affidavit has
          16    my fax information at the top.  So this would have come from
          17    my office on September 1.
          18         Q    Were the lines of communication open between you
          19    and the State Attorney's Office relative to common issues
          20    regarding Lisa McPherson?
          21         A    Yes.  I mean, I would tell them what I knew.  Of
          22    course, they wouldn't tell me what they knew.  But I
          23    would -- they encouraged me to send any information.
          24    Dr. Wood encouraged me, you know, if I had any information,
          25    to go ahead and send it over.  And I did.
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           1         Q    Was the purpose in providing the State Attorney's
           2    Office information about the Lisa McPherson wrongful death
           3    case or any other issue regarding Lisa McPherson with an
           4    intent to put pressure on the Church?
           5         A    No.  It was to make sure that -- that the State
           6    Attorney's Office, and, in particular, Doug Crow who I
           7    respect and admire, had all of the information he could
           8    possibly have in doing his job.
           9              THE COURT:  Well, we must not be -- we must not
          10         be foolish here.  Obviously, had the State
          11         prosecuted the Church or Mr. Miscavige or any person
          12         for manslaughter, and been successful, presumably
          13         that would have made the wrongful death case a
          14         little easier.
          15              THE WITNESS:  Well, I don't think it's
          16         admissible, though, Judge.  I mean, what they do on
          17         the criminal side I can't use on the civil -- like
          18         even if they went and pled no contest --
          19              THE COURT:  Are we crazy here or what?  If they
          20         bring a manslaughter charge and they are successful
          21         and they persuade a jury beyond a reasonable doubt
          22         that David Miscavige, the Church of Scientology,
          23         David (sic) Kartuzinski, anybody else, was guilty
          24         beyond a reasonable doubt of manslaughter, does that
          25         not make the same allegation that has a lesser
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           1         burden of proof a little easier to settle, take to
           2         trial or anything else?
           3              THE WITNESS:  The way you phrased that?  Yes.
           4         Yes.
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    Was any of the information you provided to the
           7    State Attorney false, to your knowledge?
           8         A    Oh, no.  Not at all.
           9         Q    Was there any bad-faith motive that you had in
          10    providing them information that you acquired in your
          11    research?
          12         A    No.  I believe as an officer of the court I
          13    actually had a duty to do something like that if I had
          14    information that they could use.  I wish I had the
          15    information they had, but I didn't get that until after the
          16    charges were dismissed.
          17         Q    Mr. Dandar, let me ask you something about the
          18    checks, the two --
          19              THE COURT:  By the way, I don't suggest there
          20         is any wrong with that.  I'm simply saying that is a
          21         fact.  I mean, civil lawyers -- if there is a
          22         criminal case pending and there is a criminal
          23         conviction of same -- you should feel a little
          24         better about your case.  You have a lesser burden.
          25              MR. LIROT:  I think that is an accurate
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           1         assumption, your Honor.
           2              THE WITNESS:  Except in this case I have to
           3         wait because they were pleading the Fifth Amendment,
           4         I couldn't take their depositions so it just delayed
           5         and delayed and delayed everything.
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    Now, the first check that you received, the
           8    $500,000 check you received in, I think it was, May of 2000,
           9    now, did you make a special request that that come from a
          10    confidential source?
          11         A    No.  I didn't make any request at all.
          12         Q    All right.  In the context of your negotiations
          13    with Mr. Minton and knowing what you knew or certainly
          14    presumed to have been informed of about the Church's
          15    practices, what might seem strange in some instances, did it
          16    seem strange to you that you were getting an anonymous check
          17    for half a million dollars?
          18         A    No.
          19              THE COURT:  Frankly, I think he covered that.
          20         A    These people wanted to remain anonymous.  They
          21    were his friends in Europe.  I got the check.  By that time
          22    in May of 2000, I have already been through the ringer of
          23    Scientology contacting my clients, accusing me of crimes,
          24    immoral conduct.  My wife had been approached several times
          25    at our home.  My wife and daughter, shopping, their
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           1    photographs had been taken.  People stop in front of them at
           2    stop signs and don't move their car like they're supposed
           3    to.  By May of 2000, we had been through quite a bit.  And I
           4    could understand why anybody wanted to remain anonymous.
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you a document that
           7    we have not marked yet, I'll go ahead and get an exhibit
           8    number from the clerk, if I may.
           9              THE CLERK:  192.
          10              MR. LIROT:  192.  Here is a copy for you,
          11         Judge.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you what has been
          14    marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 192 and ask you if you can
          15    identify that for the Court.
          16         A    This was an affidavit of my client, Linda
          17    Herrington, dated April 28, 1998.
          18              This is a prime example of what I have been
          19    talking about.  She was one of the first clients I knew had
          20    been contacted by a private investigator, which caused me to
          21    ask Judge Moody to stop it because of what she says in this
          22    affidavit, of the private investigator who I found out to be
          23    Brian Raftery, who is the same investigator for the Church
          24    that went after Mr. Prince a couple years later, accusing me
          25    of immoral conduct with her thirteen-year-old daughter who
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           1    at the time of this interview that she relays in this
           2    affidavit was 22 years old.
           3              And, of course, it is all false.  But accuses me
           4    of crimes and accuses me of all kinds of things that they
           5    are going to try to get me convicted of.  It is all false.
           6              But this is the client that was going to testify
           7    before the Florida Bar, and two weeks before that was killed
           8    in a head-on collision with a truck in Plant City where she
           9    lived.  And I couldn't use her testimony.
          10              MR. FUGATE:  Judge --
          11         A    It was Mr. Raftery who alerted the Florida Bar of
          12    Ms. Herrington's death.
          13              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, I object to that because
          14         that is not accurate.  This is the -- the
          15         allegations that were made against me and
          16         Ms. Vaughan that resulted in a Bar complaint by
          17         Mr. Dandar, resulted in us having to respond,
          18         resulted in a hearing, a hearing which took place,
          19         and ended in a finding of no probable cause where he
          20         had an opportunity to present this information and
          21         any other information that he had.  And it was done
          22         and there was nothing that came out of it.
          23              And this is another attempt, in my judgment, to
          24         try to -- to besmirch the lawyers without any --
          25         sufficient evidence.  And I object to it.
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           1              THE WITNESS:  Could I respond to that, Judge?
           2              THE COURT:  No.
           3              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I want to ask him some
           4         questions about this.
           5              THE COURT:  All right.
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    I'll flat out ask you, was this an attempt --
           8              THE COURT:  Excuse me, if that was an
           9         objection, it is overruled.
          10    BY MR. LIROT:
          11         Q    Was this an attempt to besmirch anyone?
          12         A    No.  This is an attempt to play fair.  I was
          13    trying to get Mr. Fugate -- and I don't know if Mr. Weinberg
          14    was involved in this but I didn't accuse him of anything --
          15    at the time it was just Mr. Fugate and his associate, Laura
          16    Vaughan, before Judge Moody.
          17              I brought it to Judge Moody's attention.
          18    Mr. Fugate and Ms. Vaughan denied any knowledge of this
          19    private investigator.  In fact, they said I was making it
          20    up.
          21              Then I brought it to the judge's attention again
          22    because other people were getting contacted.  And Mr. Fugate
          23    and Ms. Vaughan again denied it to the judge.
          24              THE COURT:  Who is Ms. Vaughan?  Excuse me.
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  She used to be an associate at
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           1         our firm back then.
           2              THE COURT:  Was she working on this case?
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, she was.
           4              THE WITNESS:  So then I -- Ms. Linda Herrington
           5         was meeting with this Brian Raftery four or five
           6         times.  Finally, she got a phone number for him.
           7              I called and got his real name, because he was
           8         using an assumed name with her.  I subpoenaed him
           9         for a hearing.  And Mr. Fugate and Ms. Vaughan filed
          10         a motion to quash the subpoena.  And we had a
          11         hearing.
          12              And I recall Judge Moody looking at both of
          13         them, saying, "I thought you told me on two or more
          14         occasions before this hearing that Mr. Dandar was
          15         making all this up and you had no knowledge about
          16         this?"
          17              And Mr. Fugate or Ms. Vaughan, I don't remember
          18         which one, said, "No, Judge, our client had us hire
          19         this private investigator, and we're allowed to
          20         investigate Mr. Dandar, so it is all work product,
          21         and we should not have to have a hearing on this."
          22    BY MR. LIROT:
          23         Q    The woman approached by the private investigator,
          24    what did she have to do with the Lisa McPherson wrongful
          25    death case?
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           1         A    She had nothing to do with it.  She was a poor
           2    woman, someone who I helped out for free, and her like --
           3    had like four or five kids living in a trailer park and
           4    needed to vacate, they had no money.  And it was my pro bono
           5    service to help her out.
           6              I got her -- I paid for the truck to come move her
           7    trailer to Plant City on a nice half-acre lot, and she was
           8    out in Gibsonton and she was happy.  And, you know, I did my
           9    service to the community with that case.
          10              And I also represented -- I forgot -- how could I
          11    forget this -- I also represented her for the death of her
          12    son, unrelated.
          13              But she had nothing to do with the Church of
          14    Scientology, nor all my other clients that they went and
          15    even coached and persuaded somehow to file Bar complaints
          16    against me.
          17              MR. FUGATE:  Excuse me, I do object to this
          18         because this was the subject of a Bar complaint and
          19         hearing where he had an opportunity to bring people
          20         in and to support the allegations that he makes out
          21         of thin air.  And it didn't happen.  It didn't
          22         happen.  And he knows it didn't happen.  And what he
          23         just described to you didn't happen.  And I'm sick
          24         of it.
          25              THE COURT:  He says it did.  And this is a
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           1         different hearing.  And I, frankly, think he's on
           2         the stand and he's been accused of some pretty --
           3              MR. FUGATE:  I apologize.
           4              THE COURT:  -- bad things.  And your objection
           5         once again is overruled.
           6              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
           7         192 into evidence.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  This is just
           9         hearsay.  And the woman is dead.
          10              THE COURT:  Overruled.
          11    BY MR. LIROT:
          12         Q    Mr. Dandar, I'm --
          13              THE COURT:  It goes, if nothing else, to his
          14         belief about people not wanting to identify
          15         themselves for contributions.  So it has some
          16         relevance even if it is not true.  I'm not saying it
          17         is true or not.  If she's dead, obviously we
          18         can't -- you can't -- nobody can --
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  I can't --
          20              THE COURT:  -- get any information about that.
          21         However, I'm allowing it in.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  I understand that.
          23              THE COURT:  Just like I have allowed in a whole
          24         slew of other affidavits from folks who have never
          25         been here.  And I have no idea if their affidavits
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           1         are true or false, like Mr. Miscavige, like just a
           2         slew of people, you know, lawyers, and
           3         Mr. Wollersheim, and --
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  Joe Yanny and all that stuff.
           5              THE COURT:  Yanny.  And, I mean, just a whole
           6         slew of affidavits in this proceeding.
           7              But as far as Mr. Dandar, some of the
           8         statements he has made, what it is he thought --
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
          10              THE COURT:  -- as far as the Church of
          11         Scientology and their efforts to bother him or what
          12         have you is quite relevant.  So --
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  I mean, just so the record --
          14         the objection is clear, it's not just an objection
          15         because the allegation which is false was made
          16         against Mr. Fugate or Ms. Vaughan.  But it is also a
          17         false allegation against our client.
          18              And -- and so our objection is not just to
          19         Mr. Dandar rattling off about things that have
          20         already gone in front of a Bar committee, but it is
          21         also rattling off about things just absolutely not
          22         true about the client and talking about hearsay --
          23              THE COURT:  The truth of the matter is what
          24         might be relevant in a Bar complaint as far as what
          25         Mr. Fugate had to do with this, if anything, is
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           1         absolutely of no never mind to me.  I have no way of
           2         knowing if this has to do with Mr. Fugate or not.
           3              I have just ruled this has some relevance and
           4         it is, therefore, admissible in this hearing.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  I just wanted --
           6              THE COURT:  You can talk about it all you want,
           7         but it is really a very simple thing.  You-all need
           8         to get used to it.
           9              If we ever get to trial and I rule something is
          10         admissible or inadmissible, if you think you'll
          11         stand up and make a huge record of it, I don't care
          12         what you think about this.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  No.  I knew you had already
          14         ruled.
          15              THE COURT:  Then sit down.  Let's move.
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
          17              THE COURT:  I mean, I don't expect them to get
          18         up every time I let something in they think is
          19         harmful to their case, they think is not true, to
          20         get up and -- to stand up and say so.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
          22              THE COURT:  But you keep doing it.
          23    BY MR. LIROT:
          24         Q    Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you what we marked
          25    as Plaintiff's Exhibit 193.
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           1              MR. LIROT:  I have a courtesy copy for you,
           2         your Honor.  A copy for the clerk.
           3    BY MR. LIROT:
           4         Q    Can you identify that document for the Court?
           5         A    This is --
           6              THE COURT:  Now I can hear you up here.
           7              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.
           8         A    This is a more recent affidavit of a client of
           9    mine, a current client of mine.  And she was, back in the
          10    time she wrote this affidavit, May 26, 1999, Ann Koutelas,
          11    K-O-U-T-E-L-A-S.  Ann Koutelas.
          12              She was approached several times by a private
          13    investigator and finally agreed to talk with him.  He
          14    actually showed her a badge, as she states in Paragraph
          15    Number 3, and said they were investigating an attorney.  And
          16    he mentioned my name as being the one he was investigating
          17    and coached her -- this is the only -- well, this is the one
          18    I know for sure, coached by the investigator to file a Bar
          19    complaint against me concerning a case where I represented
          20    her in a fall on an elevator years ago.  And she actually
          21    filed a Bar complaint.
          22              I only found out about it when I got a letter from
          23    the Bar -- a copy of a letter to her -- saying that, you
          24    know, there is nothing to talk about, the Bar wasn't going
          25    to look at this at all.
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           1              But here they are alleging that I'm transporting
           2    illegal weapons --
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.
           4         A    -- and fraudulent insurance claims.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  They are alleging?  The
           6         suggestion that -- he's reading from an affidavit
           7         dated back in '99.  We don't know who this woman is.
           8         She apparently filed a Bar complaint against him.
           9         And now it is being used against us in this
          10         proceeding?
          11              THE COURT:  It is not being used against you,
          12         Counsel.  Maybe you didn't hear me.  Maybe you would
          13         like me to tell you again.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.
          15              THE COURT:  I think the problem, you just don't
          16         listen.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  I try to.
          18              THE COURT:  Mr. Dandar has made some statements
          19         in this case.  And part of his statements is why it
          20         was that he believed it when Mr. Minton said that
          21         some -- some anonymous folks from Europe were going
          22         to donate $500,000.
          23              I have kind of looked at him and said that I
          24         find almost unbelievable.
          25              He has said, "Yes, but the reason is that
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           1         because this is a unique case.  And I knew what
           2         happened and I knew it was happening to me.  And I
           3         knew this, that and the other thing."
           4              And so now I presume this is part of what it is
           5         he's trying to establish he knew why that statement
           6         that seemed so farfetched to me is not farfetched as
           7         to what he was thinking.  I don't know what was
           8         going on in his head.  These are things he is saying
           9         he knew, which is the only thing that makes this
          10         relevant, as to why he thought some folks would give
          11         half a million dollars to him and would not want to
          12         be known or named or have the Church of Scientology
          13         in any way, shape or form know who they were, why
          14         this testimony made sense to him.
          15              Now, is that the relevance?
          16              THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.
          17              MR. LIROT:  Absolutely, Judge.
          18              THE COURT:  So if you don't understand that, I
          19         can't help you.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  I understand what you just said.
          21              THE COURT:  I do understand that.  And that is
          22         why I overruled your objection.
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  I understand what you just said.
          24              THE COURT:  I'll overrule the next one if you
          25         have it.  So the affidavits come in because this is
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           1         part of his case to establish why that isn't so
           2         farfetched as far as he's concerned.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  They come in for his state of
           4         mind but not for the truth?
           5              THE COURT:  That is exactly right.  Well, they
           6         come in for what Mr. Dandar believes is the truth.
           7              MR. WEINBERG:  That is what I said.
           8              THE COURT:  Obviously, he thinks they are
           9         absolutely true.  You people think they are
          10         absolutely false.  There is nothing different about
          11         this than there is anything else that has gone on in
          12         this case.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  All right, until a minute ago I
          14         had not seen them, so ...
          15              THE WITNESS:  This person, Ann Koutelas, I
          16         continue to represent her.
          17              THE COURT:  But you know the truth of the
          18         matter is I really don't need you to read off this.
          19         I can read off it, too.  If that is the relevance,
          20         then, you see, I figured it out before I even read
          21         it, I just read a part of it.
          22              You need to introduce it.
          23              MR. LIROT:  I would like to introduce it.
          24              THE COURT:  Then what you need to do is go to
          25         your closing argument to go to explain it.
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           1              MR. LIROT:  Very good.
           2              THE COURT:  This record is way too long and,
           3         frankly, I can tell that I have just about had it.
           4         And I can feel it coming.  You know, I can always
           5         tell when I have had just about as much as I can
           6         handle for the day, and then I go off and do
           7         something I wish hadn't done.
           8              So just introduce it and then move on to your
           9         next --
          10              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I move Exhibit 193 into
          11         evidence.
          12              THE COURT:  All right.  I'm going to receive
          13         it.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  And we have the same objection.
          15              THE COURT:  You have the same objection.
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
          17    BY MR. LIROT:
          18         Q    Now, Mr. Dandar, were there other instances that
          19    didn't result in affidavits where you felt the Church was
          20    putting you under scrutiny that had nothing to do with the
          21    Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
          22         A    Well, Mr. Moxon, in a deposition of Jesse Prince's
          23    fiancee, Dee Phillips, in a criminal case, I believe, of
          24    Mr. Prince, Mr. Moxon questioned his fiancee, Dee
          25    Phillips --
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           1              THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  Now I'm so
           2         confused.  How could Mr. Moxon be questioning
           3         anybody in a criminal case?  He wouldn't have any
           4         standing to take a deposition.
           5              THE WITNESS:  Well, it must be the civil case.
           6              THE COURT:  Civil case.
           7              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  You are right.  I'm kind
           8         of tired.  You are right.  It is not a good thing to
           9         be a witness all day.
          10         A    But, anyway, Mr. Moxon -- the question that came
          11    out of his mouth was, "And isn't it true that you are --
          12    that Mr. Prince and Ken Dandar are engaged in drug dealing,
          13    illegal arms dealing, some other crimes?"
          14              THE COURT:  Mr. Moxon asked this Mr. Prince's
          15         fiancee whether Mr. Prince was involved in these
          16         illegal activities, and you?
          17              THE WITNESS:  And me.  Right.  Right.  That is
          18         one.
          19         A    Another one is just this January I flew with my
          20    family to the Cayman Islands.  Sitting in the lounge waiting
          21    for our room, someone runs up, snaps our picture and runs
          22    away.  Could that be just a tourist wanting to take my
          23    picture?  I don't think so.
          24              My wife and daughter, I already said this, going
          25    to the shopping center, to the mall, supermarket, they had
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           1    been followed over the years.  Their picture has been taken
           2    while they are sitting at a light.  Some guy pulls up, takes
           3    their picture, they see the flash.  I don't understand it.
           4    They are, again, annoyed by it.  And we live and we go on.
           5              Yes, I have been -- I believe 100 percent my
           6    office has been broken into repeatedly.  I can't prove it
           7    because the cops can't figure it out.  And -- but things are
           8    moved around, lights are left on, things like that.  I have
           9    no proof it is the Church.  I never had that experience
          10    before I took this case.
          11              My volunteer people, like Patricia Greenway who is
          12    not here today.  She's part of the production company that
          13    produced the movie, The Profit, Courage Productions.  She
          14    was set for deposition December 2001 by Mr. Moxon.  It was
          15    continued for her to get a lawyer, reset for either January
          16    or February.  In January the Church, the Palm Springs org,
          17    files a police complaint against her, Mr. Croates
          18    (phonetic), who used to be a private investigator for the
          19    Lisa McPherson Trust, and Frank Oliver, accusing them of
          20    being suspects in an arson, criminal arson, against the
          21    Church in Palm Springs, Florida.  And that investigation is
          22    still open.  I mean, that got her all excited, to put it
          23    mildly.
          24              And Mr. Garko was sued by the Church of
          25    Scientology before Judge Baird.  We recently saw Mr. Moxon
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           1    meeting with him in private, then he resigns as my trial
           2    consultant shortly after he testified here.  And then they
           3    write a letter dismissing him, they are not going to be
           4    pursuing that, saying they had no facts to sue him.  Well,
           5    they should not have done it in the first place.  But that
           6    caused a lot of concern with Dr. Garko.  And I'm still, I
           7    guess, a potential defendant in that case.  We haven't had a
           8    hearing on that yet.
           9              THE COURT:  What case is that?
          10              THE WITNESS:  That is the breach of contract
          11         case in front of Judge Baird.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    Well, Mr. Dandar, in the context of what you just
          14    testified to --
          15              THE COURT:  Wait a second.
          16              MR. LIROT:  I'm sorry, Judge.
          17              THE COURT:  I heard you say earlier, when you
          18         were maybe talking too fast -- but did I hear you
          19         say something about your phones or your credit?  Or
          20         your phone or your -- either your phone or credit?
          21         Did I hear you say something about either of those?
          22              THE WITNESS:  Actually, I said both.  This is
          23         what I said.  Let's see.
          24              When I went to buy a house, on the same street
          25         where my other house was -- I moved down the
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           1         street -- I believe this was in the summer of '99,
           2         applied for a mortgage.  And when I went to apply
           3         for a mortgage, my credit report came back.
           4              I was denied a mortgage at first because I had
           5         these three phone bills.  That is where they come
           6         together.  Three phone bills appear on my credit
           7         report.  And -- one in Minneapolis, one in Dallas,
           8         Texas and one in Southern California.  And they had
           9         my Social Security number on all of those.  But they
          10         had some of my other family history incorrect.  But
          11         they still were under my name, under my Social
          12         Security number, on my credit report, which caused
          13         my mortgage company to say no until I got rid of
          14         those charges.
          15              THE COURT:  These were three bills -- three
          16         phone bills in three different cities or states that
          17         were not yours, I gather?
          18              THE WITNESS:  Right.  I never lived there.
          19              THE COURT:  Still unpaid at the time you made
          20         your application?
          21              THE WITNESS:  Correct.  That is the first time
          22         I discovered, when I made my application for a
          23         mortgage.
          24              THE COURT:  Where were they?  What cities and
          25         states?
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           1              THE WITNESS:  Dallas, Texas phone company where
           2         Lisa McPherson used to work.
           3              THE COURT:  Dallas, Texas --
           4              THE WITNESS:  Phone company.
           5              THE COURT:  What is it, is this a number?  Just
           6         a number out there?
           7              THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, it is like -- I think
           8         it is called -- I can't remember the name, Southern
           9         Bell located in Dallas, Texas.  Someone went to an
          10         apartment, opened up -- you know, rented an
          11         apartment, I guess in my name, I don't know about
          12         that, but they opened up a phone service, private
          13         phone service, residential, in my name in Dallas,
          14         Texas.
          15              THE COURT:  Made long distance calls?
          16              THE WITNESS:  Ran up a bill.
          17              THE COURT:  Didn't pay it?
          18              THE WITNESS:  Didn't pay it.  Somebody went to
          19         Minneapolis where Dr. Coe is and Dr. Bandt, opened
          20         up a residential phone service in my name, ran up
          21         the bill and then didn't pay it.
          22              Somebody went to Southern California, opened
          23         the account, same thing, ran up a phone bill, didn't
          24         pay it.
          25              So they all show up on my credit report.
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           1              THE COURT:  All in your name with your Social
           2         Security number attached to it?
           3              THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.
           4              THE COURT:  Did you ever live in any of those
           5         three places?
           6              THE WITNESS:  No.
           7              THE COURT:  Did you ever have phone service in
           8         your name in any of those three places?
           9              THE WITNESS:  Never.
          10              THE COURT:  Okay.
          11              THE WITNESS:  So what I did, I had to go to the
          12         City of St. Petersburg, because I lived here for a
          13         long time, you know, and I have been a resident of
          14         Tampa Bay for 24 years, between St. Pete and Tampa.
          15         And I had to go get my utility bills for these
          16         months and I had to send them in.
          17              Everyone dismissed those bills off my credit
          18         report except the phone company where Lisa McPherson
          19         used to work where I know that her boss was a
          20         Scientologist, because that is what her mother told
          21         me.  So that bill remained unpaid.
          22              I sent them all of the stuff.  They refused to
          23         take it off my credit report.  I could have sued.
          24         But my bank said, "Look, we'll pay the bill
          25         ourselves.  We want your business."  So they paid
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           1         the bill.
           2    BY MR. LIROT:
           3         Q    In the context of --
           4              THE COURT:  Got your credit cleared up
           5         eventually?
           6              THE WITNESS:  Right, because the bank lending
           7         me the money for the house said, you know, "We'll
           8         pay the darned thing off," because I was going to
           9         sue.  And I don't have time to do that.
          10              THE COURT:  Anything else like that, or like
          11         what you have just been telling us that can explain
          12         stuff?
          13              THE WITNESS:  I have had lawyers call me up.
          14         You can go investigate my clients, I guess, and
          15         ask -- tell them I'm a criminal.  But I had lawyers
          16         call up telling me -- saying they had been
          17         contacted.
          18              I had an insurance investigator, also, who is a
          19         client of mine -- or was a client of mine.  But he's
          20         a business acquaintance more than anything else.
          21         And he called me up and said, "Look, I just got a
          22         call from some guy in California.  They're looking
          23         for a good lawyer.  They mentioned your name.  They
          24         wanted to know as much as I would tell them about
          25         you, and I hung up on them."
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           1              I said, "Well, that is great."
           2              Now I don't know who it was.  It could have
           3         been a coincidence.
           4              Mmm, you can see I'm well rehearsed for this
           5         because I'm trying to remember all these things.
           6         There are quite a few.  I'm not well rehearsed for
           7         this question.
           8              THE COURT:  File an affidavit.
           9              THE WITNESS:  Pardon me?
          10              THE COURT:  File an affidavit.
          11              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  But people associated with
          12         me like Peter Alexander, who did the movie The
          13         Profit, he goes to Germany to the film festival.
          14         Somebody goes into his hotel lobby where the
          15         trailers of his movie are, he looks just like Peter
          16         Alexander, he signs the movie and takes the
          17         trailers, and the movie trailers are all stolen.
          18              I can go on, but that would be rank hearsay to
          19         go on.
          20              THE COURT:  I'm talking about things that
          21         specifically you think happened to you that you
          22         would -- but you are saying you knew about some
          23         other things that also influenced you to think
          24         that --
          25              THE WITNESS:  All these things -- these are
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           1         things that --
           2              THE COURT:  That influenced you?
           3              THE WITNESS:  Yes, since '97.  The other thing
           4         is the credit card -- or the credit report was one
           5         thing.  But on my credit report there were also
           6         inquiries made by different companies.  And I didn't
           7         do -- that is the first time I heard Hana Whitfield
           8         talk about that.  I didn't do what she did.  I
           9         didn't call up and try to investigate this.  I just
          10         saw there were a bunch of inquiries made on my
          11         credit report, which also caused me some financing
          12         difficulties, I'll say, in -- down the road because
          13         no one -- I could not explain why these inquiries
          14         were being made on my credit report when I didn't
          15         apply for credit with any of those companies.  They
          16         just -- it just shows up on your credit report and
          17         that causes your credit rating -- which mine was
          18         very high -- to start to go down and cause people
          19         who want to lend you money or finance things to ask
          20         you a lot of questions.
          21              Mmm, I have had numerous people call me up who
          22         want to give me information but they don't want to
          23         give me their real names.  They are former
          24         Scientologists.
          25              Mmm, the woman that came in here, Nancy Many,
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           1         last week, she communicated to me maybe a year ago
           2         under an assumed name.  I didn't know who she was.
           3         It wasn't until -- it was only two or three days
           4         before she decided to get the nerve up to come and
           5         testify did she give me her real name.  And I
           6         couldn't -- she wouldn't even tell me in confidence
           7         because -- well, because you just don't do that.
           8              So when Mr. Minton comes around and says
           9         friends in Europe, and I already know about people
          10         in France and Germany who support this case, they
          11         want to send money, I don't know their names.  I
          12         still don't know their names.
          13              So when Mr. Minton shows up -- and this has
          14         been going on ever since I took this case -- when
          15         Mr. Minton shows up with his UBS check, it doesn't
          16         seem farfetched.  I believed Mr. Minton, because at
          17         that point in time I trusted Mr. Minton.  I mean, he
          18         was a person who put his money where his mouth was
          19         and he was real.  And he was sincere.
          20              And he wasn't out to take down the Church of
          21         Scientology.  He wanted to do -- he wanted to expose
          22         what Fannie McPherson wanted, their abuse.
          23              And I have a video of Fannie McPherson, sitting
          24         on my laptop, of her talking to a German
          25         interviewer, telling the German interviewer what
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           1         they did to her daughter.  And they accused me of
           2         making all these allegations up.  I got all that
           3         from Fannie McPherson saying that "They killed my
           4         daughter."
           5              THE COURT:  Fannie McPherson would not know
           6         what happened to her daughter, right?  She
           7         absolutely would not know.  Now, that answer is a
           8         yes.
           9              THE WITNESS:  Absolutely, she would not know.
          10         But she did talk to me.  That was a year after she
          11         talked to the police.  And she was upset that she
          12         had her daughter's remains cremated, she was told
          13         that is what her daughter wanted.  And no one in the
          14         family has ever been cremated before.  And being
          15         cremated in this case has been a drawback for
          16         everyone, even the defense says they wish she wasn't
          17         cremated.  And it's -- it's a hindrance to proving
          18         the case, although we do have the other evidence of
          19         vitreous.
          20              But as I sit here today, I mean, I just can't
          21         remember any more instances.
          22              THE COURT:  All right.
          23              THE WITNESS:  But I just know there are very
          24         few people like Mr. Prince or Hana Whitfield or some
          25         other former Scientologists who are willing to be
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           1         known to talk about Scientology.
           2              THE COURT:  Mr. Prince had the criminal case.
           3         We already addressed that in hearing.
           4              THE WITNESS:  That is another instance.  But
           5         Mr. Prince had that criminal case, that is right.
           6              THE COURT:  Mr. Minton had a criminal case.
           7              THE WITNESS:  He had two criminal cases which
           8         he was not convicted of.
           9              Mr. Bunker had a criminal case in Chicago in
          10         which he was not convicted.
          11              And then you haven't mentioned the harassment
          12         time line.  I did not make up my own time line.
          13              I have had credit card entries.  Somebody
          14         purchased $8,500 of stereo equipment on my credit
          15         card.  My credit card company caught it.  Someone
          16         purchased a $2,800 diamond ring from Spiegel catalog
          17         in December 2000.  Not mine.  My credit card company
          18         caught that.
          19    BY MR. LIROT:
          20         Q    So, Mr. Dandar, in the context of obviously what
          21    you have testified to are suspicious circumstances, and I
          22    guess coupled with Mr. Minton having given you checks before
          23    the -- I guess the May 2000 check, written on his own
          24    account, signed by him, did it seem strange that you would
          25    be getting this $500,000 check from -- from sources that
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           1    were represented to you wanted to remain anonymous?
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Asked and answered.
           3              THE COURT:  Sustained.
           4    BY MR. LIROT:
           5         Q    Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you about, apparently,
           6    another check drawn on UBS account given to Courage
           7    Productions.
           8         A    Correct.
           9         Q    Did you ever see that check before it was attached
          10    as an exhibit to the motion that is before the Court?
          11         A    Never.
          12         Q    Were you ever told about that check by anybody
          13    associated with Courage Productions?
          14         A    No.
          15              THE COURT:  What was the date of that check?  I
          16         know it is in evidence but -- I think it is in
          17         evidence.  Anybody?
          18              MR. FUGATE:  It is either May of 2000 or --
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  We'll find it.  It is in 2000, I
          20         believe.
          21              THE COURT:  Well, I can find it if it is in
          22         evidence.  Is it in evidence?
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
          24              MR. FUGATE:  It is.
          25              MR. LIROT:  Yes, it is an exhibit to the
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           1         original motion, I believe, Judge.
           2              THE COURT:  Okay.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  And it was also one of the ones
           4         that Mr. Minton put in.  He got some stuff from the
           5         Swiss bank, if you'll remember.
           6              THE COURT:  Go ahead, I'm sorry, I didn't mean
           7         to interrupt.
           8    BY MR. LIROT:
           9         Q    Mr. Dandar --
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me for a second.  It is
          11         Defense Exhibit 122, your Honor, according to our
          12         record.
          13              THE COURT:  Thank you.
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    I'm going to show you again I think what
          16    Mr. Weinberg -- forgive me, Judge, I don't know if this has
          17    been entered into evidence, this is Exhibit 269 -- the --
          18    it's been represented as evidence of a wire transfer to the
          19    Lisa McPherson Trust.
          20         A    Right.
          21         Q    And I think it has been represented that that was
          22    produced by Bank of America at a deposition.
          23         A    Right.
          24         Q    Have you ever seen that before?
          25         A    No.
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           1         Q    Down in about the middle of that exhibit, what
           2    does it say about -- it says "name of originator."
           3         A    Apostolorum, which is A-P-O-S-T-O-L-O-R-U-M.  I
           4    have no idea what that is.
           5         Q    Down below that does it say, another, I guess,
           6    source?  It says, "one of our clients."
           7         A    Yes.
           8         Q    Does it say anywhere anything about Mr. Minton on
           9    that document?
          10         A    No.
          11              THE COURT:  What is the number again?  I know
          12         it was just introduced, but I gave those all to the
          13         clerk.
          14              MR. LIROT:  269, Judge.
          15              THE COURT:  I'll probably be hearing about them
          16         again.
          17    BY MR. LIROT:
          18         Q    Is there any characteristic of that document to
          19    lead anybody to believe that the funds allegedly represented
          20    in there came from Mr. Minton or involved Mr. Minton in any
          21    way?
          22         A    No.  In fact, it is very deceptive.  It says
          23    Apostolorum as the originator to beneficiary.  I don't know
          24    what Apostolorum is.  I don't know if that it someone's
          25    name.
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           1              THE COURT:  So it doesn't identify the LMT,
           2         either?
           3              THE WITNESS:  Well, as the recipient, yes.
           4              THE COURT:  All right.  What is Apostolorum.
           5         That is a name?
           6              THE WITNESS:  A name printed right here.  It
           7         has "originator."
           8              THE COURT:  Okay.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, the question that
          10         you had asked me which I didn't answer by giving you
          11         the exhibit, the date of the check is August 23,
          12         2000 --
          13              THE COURT:  Okay.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  -- of the $500,000 check.
          15              THE COURT:  Thank you.  And the date of the
          16         wire transfer again?
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  That is the --
          18              THE WITNESS:  March 19, 2001.
          19              THE COURT:  Thanks.
          20              MR. LIROT:  Forgive me if I asked this, Judge.
          21    BY MR. LIROT:
          22         Q    Have you ever seen that document before?
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  You did ask that.
          24         A    No.  No.  I have never seen this.
          25
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    Were you at that deposition, if you recall?
           3         A    No.  The way Mr. Moxon worded the deposition, that
           4    it would not have included me.  Apparently, it has included
           5    me somehow.  They got one of my checks, even though there is
           6    a stay.  They got one of my checks from Mr. Minton to me
           7    dated May of 2001, if I'm -- if I'm correct on the date.  I
           8    don't know.
           9              Well, the check date is right.  The deposition is
          10    after the stay was entered.
          11         Q    Mr. Dandar, I'm going to show you what has been
          12    marked as Exhibit 270, Defendant's Exhibit 270.
          13              THE COURT:  Madam Clerk, give me all those
          14         back, all of the things I handed you, if you haven't
          15         put them away.
          16              Thanks.
          17    BY MR. LIROT:
          18         Q    Mr. Dandar, it's my understanding that
          19    Mr. Weinberg entered that as an explanation as to, I guess,
          20    some of the heat, and that is my term, that Mr. Minton was
          21    feeling about the Church gaining access into his private
          22    records.
          23         A    That is right.  This is -- yes, it says Los
          24    Angeles.  I didn't know AG meant Switzerland or Germany.
          25    But this was -- caused concern to Mr. Minton.  And the
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           1    closer they got to his Swiss bank accounts, the more upset
           2    he got.
           3         Q    In addition to whatever issues might be
           4    represented by that document, were you aware that Mr. Minton
           5    was upset about other issues where the Church was looking
           6    into his private affairs?
           7         A    Well, this -- the Swiss bank -- I don't know how
           8    many there are -- but he was upset about that, tremendously
           9    upset about that.
          10              The Nigerian thing, he was upset about, but he
          11    handled it until he got word in 2002, the first week of
          12    March, that there was a new prosecutor and a new judge in
          13    Switzerland on this case.  And that caused him a lot more
          14    grief.  And he was really concerned about that.
          15         Q    What was your understanding of what you referred
          16    to as the Nigerian thing?
          17         A    He arbitraged, apparently, a couple billion
          18    dollars of debt for Nigeria.  Nigeria owed a third country
          19    money.  And he got another country, we'll call it the fourth
          20    country, to purchase that debt at a big discount.  So the
          21    fourth country now had Nigeria owing them money.  The third
          22    country got the fourth country's money in return, they were
          23    happy.  Mr. Minton makes his commission, he and his
          24    partners, whatever that is, I understand hundreds and
          25    hundreds of millions of dollars.  And everybody is happy.
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           1    And it's all -- as far as he told me, and what I read about
           2    it -- all legitimate.
           3              So I could never understand what he's worried
           4    about.  But when he heard about a new prosecutor and new
           5    judge looking into this in March of 2002, he was very
           6    concerned about that.
           7         Q    I was going to ask you about the time frame.  Is
           8    March of 2002 the first that you heard Mr. Minton express
           9    concern about the Nigerian issue?
          10         A    Right.  He would always just kind of laugh it off
          11    and try to explain it.  And he did explain it.
          12              And I -- when he explained it, I couldn't figure
          13    out how Scientology was going to turn that around into some
          14    crime.  But I saw the newspaper articles about it and I saw
          15    their pamphlets about it.  And they're trying to make it
          16    into a crime when it's not a crime.
          17              THE COURT:  Their pamphlets?
          18              THE WITNESS:  Scientology pamphlets.  They had
          19         some fliers.  They had this soccer player, Fashanu,
          20         F-A-S-H-A-N-U --
          21              THE COURT:  I don't want to hear about him
          22         again.
          23              THE WITNESS:  Okay.
          24              THE COURT:  It was Mr. Minton's belief that the
          25         Church of Scientology was exploring something about
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           1         this Nigerian -- Nigerian transaction?
           2              THE WITNESS:  Definitely.
           3              THE COURT:  And it was his belief that they
           4         were pursuing something that they believed or
           5         thought that the Nigerian government, Swiss
           6         government, somebody thought, might be illegal?
           7              THE WITNESS:  Exactly.  It was in England and
           8         it was in Switzerland.
           9              THE COURT:  Mr. Minton, however, never
          10         indicated to you -- or he certainly hasn't here --
          11         that there was anything illegal about it.
          12              THE WITNESS:  Correct.  He said it was on the
          13         up-and-up, it was with the government's approval,
          14         the government's knowledge, and the government was
          15         happy.  And then the dictator came in after this was
          16         all over -- I can't pronounce his name -- but that
          17         is when things changed.
          18    BY MR. LIROT:
          19         Q    Now, in March of 2002, apparently when I think
          20    Mr. Moxon made -- as reflected in 271 when Judge Schaeffer
          21    signed the order, was there anything about these documents
          22    that causes you to be suspicious about the funds given to
          23    you anonymously, as you believed, that they came from
          24    Mr. Minton's Swiss bank accounts?
          25         A    No.  No.  This -- everything -- when you just look
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           1    at the broad picture and you put it all together, everything
           2    makes sense that there is nobody on earth that would want to
           3    put their name out on a check to me and have to go through
           4    what Mr. Minton went through.
           5              So for this to be Mr. Minton's money makes no
           6    sense to me and still doesn't.  I think he pled the Fifth
           7    Amendment here just to protect the source of this money
           8    because they don't want to have to go through what
           9    Mr. Minton went through.  Because it makes no sense for
          10    Mr. Minton to write two checks out of, what, a dozen checks
          11    or -- I don't know how many there are -- and have them UBS
          12    checks and not his own personal checks.  It doesn't make any
          13    sense unless it -- it is not his money.  So that is the only
          14    thing that makes sense to me.
          15         Q    So was your belief that Mr. Minton would be under
          16    the same, I'll call it, scrutiny by the Church because he'd
          17    already given you checks written by himself, written on his
          18    own accounts?
          19         A    Yes.  Why hide the check?  Why hide 2 out of 12?
          20    Or 2 out of 10?  Whatever it is.
          21              THE COURT:  Are you being naive again, Counsel?
          22              THE WITNESS:  Judge, you know, I might be.
          23         Judge, I wasn't a former IRS agent.
          24              THE COURT:  Did you hear the Fifth Amendment
          25         being taken?
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           1              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
           2              THE COURT:  Did you understand anything
           3         about -- about foreign money and paying taxes on
           4         foreign money when you either -- either receive it
           5         or if you legitimately don't have to pay taxes on it
           6         when you receive it, that when you bring it into
           7         this country, you have to pay taxes on it?
           8              THE WITNESS:  I do.  I understand that.  That
           9         is one scenario.
          10              THE COURT:  Do you understand that could be a
          11         scenario?
          12              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          13              THE COURT:  Then don't sit there and say it
          14         still doesn't make sense to you.  That is certainly
          15         a scenario that, to anybody, ought to make sense.
          16              THE WITNESS:  You are right.
          17              THE COURT:  Then don't act like an idiot.
          18    BY MR. LIROT:
          19         Q    Let me ask you this, Mr. Dandar.  When you got
          20    this first $500,000 check, did you consider any
          21    implication --
          22              THE COURT:  I apologize for that.  That was
          23         uncalled for.  But, honestly, it is just unreal,
          24         some of the things you say.  Like it just doesn't
          25         make sense to you.  It would have to make sense to
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           1         anybody in this room, and it should make sense to
           2         you.
           3              THE WITNESS:  Judge, it does make sense to me
           4         on the tax aspect.
           5              THE COURT:  Well, that is an explanation.  That
           6         is an explanation that any lawyer should have been
           7         able to come to.
           8              THE WITNESS:  Judge, I previously testified
           9         about this, and maybe it is just the lateness of the
          10         day --
          11              THE COURT:  Okay.
          12              THE WITNESS:  -- but he did talk about -- not
          13         just talk about, he broke down and cried about --
          14         the fact that he hadn't paid taxes on money and he
          15         was worried that he would be prosecuted.  He said it
          16         to me.  He said it to some other people that I know
          17         of, Peter Alexander and Patricia Greenway and Stacy
          18         Brooks and Jesse Prince.  And that was certainly a
          19         big concern of his.
          20              THE COURT:  When did he tell you that?
          21              THE WITNESS:  Mmm --
          22              THE COURT:  Was it before or after you got the
          23         last check?
          24              THE WITNESS:  Oh, this would have been before
          25         the last check.
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           1              THE COURT:  And that didn't play a part in your
           2         mind when he's talking about he -- he -- he wanting
           3         to -- I mean, he's told you about the tax problems,
           4         upset about the tax problems.  He's telling you that
           5         the "Fat Man" will give you money if, in fact, you
           6         can stop the Internet saying ugly things about him,
           7         Bob Minton.  And you still couldn't put that
           8         together?
           9              THE WITNESS:  No.  I didn't put it together.
          10         I -- as I'm sitting here and you're asking me these
          11         questions it is becoming very clear.  But, you know,
          12         I might be naive, Judge, but I don't -- I'm not a
          13         liar.
          14              THE COURT:  I don't know that is a fact and I
          15         don't know that is the truth.  I'm not suggesting
          16         that it is or it isn't because, you know, I -- I
          17         have to analyze this when this is all over.  I know
          18         what Mr. Minton has said and I know what you said.
          19              I'm just simply trying to see everything it is
          20         you have to say about it, just as I did when
          21         Mr. Minton was up here and I asked him all of the
          22         questions.  I'm trying to see that I haven't
          23         overlooked something.
          24              These are pretty serious accusations.
          25              THE WITNESS:  Yes, they are.
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           1              THE COURT:  And, you know, it just seems as if
           2         these things kind of add up, a lawyer would kind of
           3         put these things together and say, "Whoops, I bet
           4         this comes from Bob and Bob doesn't want to tell me
           5         that."
           6              But it was still your testimony that never
           7         occurred to you?
           8              THE WITNESS:  No.  Never occurred to me because
           9         all during this time period I'm under tremendous
          10         pressure and I'm trusting Bob Minton.  Now I find
          11         out not only did he lie to me, but he lied to his
          12         own lawyer, John Merrett now.  And I find that
          13         incredible.
          14              THE COURT:  Of course, Mr. Minton's testimony
          15         on the same -- think of this, it didn't -- you went
          16         up to get money from him, that is why you were
          17         there.  The reason why you are using this code was
          18         so Dr. Garko, who you haven't paid, wouldn't know
          19         you were getting money.  Now, that is the other side
          20         of this.
          21              And on the other side then, I have your
          22         testimony -- and I'm putting this all in a
          23         nutshell -- is that, geez, I didn't have a clue, I
          24         didn't know, he was asking me -- you see what I'm
          25         saying?
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           1              That is why I said, in the final analysis, a
           2         lot of this stuff you put into evidence, a lot of
           3         this hoopla, boils down to credibility.  Just that
           4         simple.  Just that simple.  Who says what.  And what
           5         is to be believed.
           6              But you do understand that you are, indeed,
           7         naive if what you are telling me is true?
           8              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
           9              THE COURT:  You are one of the most naive
          10         lawyers I have ever met since 1971 to 2002, that is
          11         31 years of being a lawyer, IRS agent or no.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    Mr. Dandar, let me ask you this.  Was there ever
          14    any -- did Mr. Minton ever have to testify -- and I guess
          15    the answer is obvious, but was there ever any testimony or
          16    concern regarding Fifth Amendment before you got the first
          17    $500,000 anonymous check?
          18         A    Mmm --
          19              THE COURT:  I don't know if he understood that
          20         but I didn't understand it.  Would you ask it again?
          21    BY MR. LIROT:
          22         Q    Was Mr. Minton questioned in any way, prior to
          23    your first $500,000 UBS check?
          24         A    Well, he was questioned on money, in '98, in
          25    Boston.  And then he answered all of the questions.
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           1              And I do not believe he pled the Fifth Amendment
           2    in May of 2000.  But when I got the check, it was before his
           3    deposition.
           4         Q    Did that come a lot later?
           5         A    The pleading of the Fifth Amendment didn't come
           6    until Stacy Brooks opened her mouth in August of 2001 about
           7    the Swiss bank.  And then he started pleading the Fifth
           8    Amendment in September and October of 2001.
           9              THE COURT:  Of course, in truth, up to that
          10         point, he never admitted anything about the $500,000
          11         check that he announced came from him.
          12              THE WITNESS:  Correct.  He didn't admit it to
          13         me.  He didn't admit it to anyone.
          14    BY MR. LIROT:
          15         Q    Now after he took the Fifth Amendment and before
          16    you went to New Hampshire in March of 2002, how many times
          17    do you recall Mr. Minton either told you or someone gave you
          18    information that you were cut off, that Mr. Minton wasn't
          19    going to give you any more money?
          20         A    I think I lost that question.
          21         Q    How many times did Mr. Minton or somebody relate
          22    to you information that you weren't getting any more money
          23    from Mr. Minton?
          24         A    That was in Mr. Merrett's E-Mail of August of
          25    2001.
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           1         Q    Were there other instances where you were told or
           2    there were -- there was information given to you that you
           3    weren't getting any more money from Mr. Minton?
           4         A    Well, I had a conversation with -- I think I had a
           5    conversation with Jesse Prince in 2001.  And that was before
           6    Merrett's E-Mail, I believe.
           7              And then Mr. Minton said, well, he can't -- "I
           8    didn't appoint Jesse as my emissary to tell you I'm not
           9    giving you any more money.  You need to get that from me."
          10              Then in February of 2002 I got another visit from
          11    Jesse Prince to tell me that, you know, this Internet attack
          12    by these critics -- and they were attacking Minton because
          13    he cut me off.  That was the only thing they were attacking
          14    him on.
          15         Q    Did you tell -- did you ever tell anybody to
          16    attack Mr. Minton because he had discontinued funding the
          17    Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
          18         A    Never.  No.
          19         Q    Did you ever tell Mr. Minton about who you paid or
          20    didn't pay as related to the case, whether it be your
          21    employees or any experts?
          22         A    No.  No.  I don't tell anyone that.
          23         Q    Is there any way Mr. Minton would have known that
          24    Dr. Garko wasn't paid when you and Dr. Garko went up to New
          25    Hampshire in 2002?
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           1         A    No.  Dr. Garko was paid very handsomely for his
           2    work.  And Dr. Garko -- I did not tell anyone I wasn't
           3    paying Dr. Garko.
           4         Q    So is there any way Mr. Minton could have worked
           5    with you to say, "All right, hide this money from Dr. Garko,
           6    we'll just pretend it didn't come from me"?
           7         A    No, Mr. Minton wasn't involved in my relationships
           8    with the people that work for me.
           9         Q    Now, as far as Mr. Prince talking to law
          10    enforcement after -- I guess after March of 2002, did you
          11    know that he had gone to another office and talked to, I
          12    guess it is, Denis deVlaming's brother before he ever talked
          13    to anybody about going to law enforcement surrounding issues
          14    with Mr. Minton?
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Beyond the scope.
          16         And he already testified about that, I believe, in
          17         his direct.
          18              THE COURT:  Mr. Prince has.  I don't know
          19         whether Mr. Dandar has.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
          21              THE COURT:  In light of your redirect, I'm
          22         going to allow it.
          23         A    I didn't know that Jesse Prince went to Denis
          24    deVlaming's brother's office.
          25              I had a conversation with Lee Strope.  And I
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           1    believe Lee Strope made arrangements, through me, to have
           2    Jesse Prince come in and talk to him or another agent.  I
           3    think Lee Strope -- as I remember now, he was going to south
           4    Florida to arrest somebody.  And either he could or could
           5    not be there.  So I'm not sure how that worked out.  But it
           6    was a Thursday afternoon or something with Jesse, I think.
           7    I don't remember too well.
           8              THE COURT:  Is it not in Mr. Prince's
           9         affidavit?
          10              THE WITNESS:  I don't think so.
          11              THE COURT:  What period of time are you talking
          12         about?  From the time that Mr. Prince met him at the
          13         restaurant until he filed his affidavit, did --
          14              MR. LIROT:  No, Judge, I'm just talking
          15         about -- to explain the question, it's my
          16         understanding, I think the innuendo, was that
          17         Mr. Dandar got Mr. Prince to go to law enforcement
          18         to put pressure on Mr. Minton.
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  He just testified he arranged
          20         for Mr. Prince to see Agent Strope.
          21              THE WITNESS:  Well, I talked to Agent Strope.
          22         But I'm saying Agent Strope, I believe --
          23              THE COURT:  Counsel, please.
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.
          25
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    Well, let me ask you the question then.  Did you
           3    ask Mr. Prince to talk to law enforcement about the issues
           4    surrounding Mr. Minton in an effort to put pressure on
           5    anybody?
           6         A    No.  I mean, if a crime is being committed, which
           7    I believed 1000 percent it has, you need to report that.
           8    I'm a victim of this crime.  Mr. Minton is a victim of this
           9    crime.  And my client is a victim of this crime.
          10              And this needs to be reported.  You can't sit back
          11    and not do anything about it.  It has nothing to do with
          12    putting pressure on somebody.  Talking about pressure, we'll
          13    talk about the pressure on Mr. Minton by Mr. Rosen and
          14    Mr. Rinder.
          15         Q    Did you ever ask Jesse Prince to tamper with
          16    Mr. Minton as a witness?
          17         A    No.  No.  I found out about that after the fact.
          18    And that wasn't tampering.
          19         Q    Have you ever done anything regarding law
          20    enforcement that in any way was intended to do anything but
          21    help Mr. Minton?
          22         A    Right.  I believe Mr. Minton is a victim.  And
          23    that is what I'm trying to do is help Mr. Minton, believe it
          24    or not, after all these salacious things he said.  But he's
          25    a victim and he's acting as a victim.
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           1         Q    Now, Mr. Weinberg talked to you about what he
           2    certainly suggested was your ease with the use of the term
           3    "extortion."  What do you understand extortion to be?
           4         A    Extortion is placing -- through coercion or
           5    duress, getting someone to do something they don't want to
           6    do.
           7         Q    And you have had an opportunity to look at, I
           8    guess, Mr. Jonas' notes and Mr. Rosen's notes and
           9    Ms. Yingling's notes from the March of 2002 meetings in New
          10    York and I guess elsewhere.
          11              What is it about those notes that convinces you
          12    that extortion was taking place?
          13              THE COURT:  Do you think you could maybe save
          14         it for closing argument?  Or you really want to
          15         testify about it here?  It is up to you.
          16              MR. LIROT:  I think I can save it, Judge.
          17              THE COURT:  All right.  I mean, that is one of
          18         your allegations.  I presume there is evidence been
          19         admitted that you believe supports your allegation.
          20         The other side obviously indicates it believes there
          21         has been no evidence submitted that supports your
          22         allegation.  Consequently, that is what closing
          23         arguments are for.
          24              MR. LIROT:  One of the things that
          25         Mr. Weinberg --
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           1              THE COURT:  But I don't --
           2              MR. LIROT:  I'm sorry, Judge.
           3              THE COURT:  That is obviously an important part
           4         of what you said.  If you think you need to get it
           5         out in this record, I don't want to cut you off, so
           6         it is really up to you.
           7              MR. LIROT:  Well, I guess, Judge, just to ask
           8         Mr. Dandar the question --
           9    BY MR. LIROT:
          10         Q    Did you sincerely believe that extortion and
          11    threats had been made to Mr. Minton?
          12         A    Absolutely.  Mmm, Mr. Minton's testimony and
          13    Ms. Brooks' testimony completely contradict the notes of
          14    their own attorney.
          15              In the letter, Mr. Jonas -- Mr. Jonas specifically
          16    said that Mr. Minton -- it was demanded of him to get the
          17    McPherson case dismissed.  And he has absolutely no way of
          18    getting that to happen.
          19              So they were making a demand on him that he did
          20    not have the power to do.  And the threat was if you don't
          21    do it, then there is $35 million trebled under the RICO
          22    statute coming down on you, there is a
          23    100-or-so-million-dollar Armstrong suit.  And, by the way,
          24    here it is, and they served him.
          25              And that list of Ms. Yingling's is a tremendous
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           1    list of what the pressure that they had placed on him, not
           2    only for this case but for the Wollersheim case.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, my objection is this
           4         is just argument.
           5              THE COURT:  I think it is.  I think that is
           6         true.
           7              MR. LIROT:  All right --
           8              THE COURT:  I mean, I think this is all in
           9         evidence.  And I think now you need to take that
          10         evidence and I think you can close and suggest -- I
          11         mean, I think now we're having closing argument from
          12         a witness, which is what I thought but I didn't want
          13         to --
          14              MR. LIROT:  I'll move along.
          15              THE COURT:  -- I was fearful that perhaps I was
          16         interfering with your ability to put your evidence
          17         on.  But I don't think -- this -- this is an
          18         argument.
          19              MR. LIROT:  I appreciate you allowing me to
          20         explore it.
          21              THE COURT:  Sure.
          22    BY MR. LIROT:
          23         Q    Mr. Weinberg submitted a transcript from the case
          24    of Baker versus Alderman, who I guess was the tax appraiser
          25    in Hillsborough County?
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           1         A    Right.  Mr. Baker used to work for the predecessor
           2    tax assessor.
           3              THE COURT:  How is that related to -- I still
           4         don't understand how that is related.
           5              THE WITNESS:  Well --
           6              MR. LIROT:  I think I can comment on that,
           7         Judge.  Allegation has been made if you have been
           8         sanctioned before, that is relevant to, I guess,
           9         apparently support the suggestion that you should be
          10         sanctioned again.  And what I want -- well, I'll ask
          11         the question.
          12    BY MR. LIROT:
          13         Q    Why were you sanctioned?  What is the
          14    Rooker-Feldman doctrine?
          15         A    That is why I was sanctioned.  Rooker-Feldman said
          16    if you start out in state court, you have to stay there and
          17    finish it.
          18              His boss sued him, Mr. Baker, in state court, and
          19    dismissed the case.  And then we said, "Well, we're not
          20    going -- we're not going to stay in state court, we want to
          21    be in federal court.  So we filed it in federal court.  And
          22    Judge Kovachevich said had I argued that this was a novel
          23    theory that I had, I would not have been sanctioned.  But I
          24    argued it wasn't novel, it was right pursuant to the law.
          25    And she said, "No, your argument I don't agree with," and
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           1    then I got sanctioned.
           2         Q    Well, was the issue of sanctions based on the fact
           3    there was no merit to the allegations?  Or on a procedural
           4    matter?
           5         A    It was on a procedure matter.  Rooker-Feldman.
           6    The facts were there --
           7              THE COURT:  I don't want to hear it.
           8              THE WITNESS:  All right.
           9              MR. LIROT:  All right.
          10    BY MR. LIROT:
          11         Q    Another issue brought up by Mr. Weinberg was the
          12    allegation, I guess in your brother's response in the
          13    probate case, and apparently imputing some admission, and I
          14    will read the paragraph --
          15              THE COURT:  I don't want to hear it.
          16              MR. LIROT:  That was taken care of --
          17              THE COURT:  That was taken care of quite well.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  I thought you did.
          19    BY MR. LIROT:
          20         Q    Mr. Dandar, do you have a copy of Exhibit 264, the
          21    fifth affidavit of Robert Minton?
          22         A    Yes.
          23         Q    Let me draw your attention to Exhibit A.  I know
          24    you have testified a little bit about this.
          25              Do you have any idea where that document --
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           1              THE COURT:  Let me find this.
           2              MR. LIROT:  I'm sorry, Judge.
           3              THE COURT:  I have not had a chance to read
           4         this so I'm kind of reading it as you-all refer to
           5         it.  This is Number 264.
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  It is the Minton fifth
           7         affidavit.
           8              MR. LIROT:  Fifth affidavit with exhibits,
           9         Judge.
          10              THE COURT:  Where are you looking at?
          11              MR. LIROT:  I'm looking at Exhibit A, which has
          12         got --
          13              THE COURT:  I have got it now.
          14              MR. LIROT:  All right.
          15    BY MR. LIROT:
          16         Q    Now, this has been, I guess, represented to be an
          17    E-Mail that apparently was sent to Mr. Minton?
          18         A    That is what it is represented to be.  It doesn't
          19    make any sense because there is no E-Mail headers.
          20         Q    Do you recall --
          21              THE COURT:  I have got a curiosity thing here
          22         because I'm not very bright when it comes to
          23         E-Mails.  But don't you do an enclosure with an
          24         E-Mail?
          25              THE WITNESS:  Yes.
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           1              THE COURT:  If you do an enclosure, my
           2         recollection, the enclosure comes up as an enclosure
           3         without any E-Mail designation at all.
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  That is right.
           5              THE COURT:  Because I do that because I want --
           6         I'm working on a document at home.  I want to send
           7         it here because I'm going to finalize it here.  When
           8         it prints, my E-Mail says E-Mail and says I have an
           9         enclosure.  And when I go to my enclosure and I
          10         print out the enclosure, there would be nothing on
          11         that enclosure to indicate that it was an E-Mail.
          12              MR. MOXON:  It is just attached like any
          13         other --
          14              THE WITNESS:  Okay.
          15              THE COURT:  Yes.  I don't know much beyond
          16         that.  But I do know on an E-Mail, an attachment to
          17         an E-Mail is not necessarily designated by E-Mail at
          18         the top.
          19              THE WITNESS:  Judge, this looks more and more
          20         like a scanned document because it has all this
          21         weird stuff on it like equal signs and numbers.  I
          22         see the number 20, 9 --
          23              THE COURT:  Can we just not assume this is in
          24         evidence now and that you-all take all of the time
          25         you want to and look at it and argue and whatever
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           1         you're going to submit.  I haven't even put page
           2         limitations on your closing arguments.  If you want
           3         to explain what you think this is, if you think what
           4         it shows, I suppose you can, both sides.
           5              MR. LIROT:  All right.
           6    BY MR. LIROT:
           7         Q    Well, if you send Mr. Minton an E-Mail and there
           8    are errors in it, would he ask you to resend it?
           9         A    Shoot, I don't know.  I mean, I don't know.  I
          10    would guess he would ask me to resend something he couldn't
          11    read or something like that, like I would.
          12         Q    And do you -- do you have any recollection of
          13    providing, as a courtesy to Mr. Minton, copies of pleadings?
          14              THE COURT:  We are really going over stuff,
          15         because he already testified to this.  He can't say
          16         for sure.  He thinks he may have sent him something.
          17         We've heard this.  I mean, I cut off the other side
          18         on this, so I don't want to hear any more.  I'm
          19         cutting you off on it.  I don't want to hear it
          20         anymore.
          21              MR. LIROT:  I understand.
          22              THE COURT:  It must be time for me to take a
          23         break, I can tell.  So we're going to do that.  It
          24         is five until three.  We'll be in recess until
          25         quarter after.
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           1    (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:55 until 3:15 p.m.)
           2              THE COURT:  You may continue.
           3              MR. LIROT:  Thank you, Judge.
           4    BY MR. LIROT:
           5         Q    Before the break, we were looking at Exhibit 264,
           6    the fifth affidavit of Robert Minton.  And we were looking
           7    at some of the exhibits thereto.
           8              Regardless of whether you did or you didn't send
           9    Mr. Minton copies of pleadings, would there ever have been
          10    an instance where you sent him a pleading to get his
          11    approval before it was filed?
          12         A    No.  Never.  Never.  Never.
          13         Q    Did you ever send him a pleading to get
          14    suggestions on how to modify the language or change any of
          15    the aspects that you, in your judgment, felt should be
          16    included in the pleading?
          17         A    Never.  I really don't remember sending him
          18    things.
          19              You know, I'm just looking at this exhibit again.
          20    If you look at Exhibit C, this is what I'm talking about.
          21    Here apparently he says Jesse Prince sent him C, which is a
          22    motion for sanctions about the private investigator of Jesse
          23    Prince.  At the top, you see the headers.  You see the --
          24    some type of computer description followed by the document.
          25              So that is what I'm saying on A, that is what is
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           1    missing from A, there is -- there is nothing on the top
           2    of -- at the beginning of A like there is at the beginning
           3    of C.
           4         Q    Actually, if you look at Exhibit C, underneath the
           5    headers with the dates and types, I think there is a
           6    paragraph that says:  "Here is the motion Ken will file."
           7    So wouldn't that indicate to you that you didn't send it?
           8         A    Well, I didn't.  And even Mr. Minton says on C I
           9    think it was Jesse Prince that sent it to him.
          10              You know, and there is nothing wrong with Jesse
          11    Prince sending something to Minton or Brooks, Jeff Jacobsen
          12    or, you know -- that doesn't -- I don't care.
          13              If he puts it out on the Internet for public
          14    consumption, I would be upset about that.  I mean,
          15    Ms. Brooks did that once to me without any approval.
          16         Q    I think Mr. Minton identifies Exhibit D as a copy
          17    of an E-Mail he got from John Merrett.  Have you ever seen
          18    that E-Mail before?
          19         A    No.  Not at all.  I'm surprised he would turn over
          20    to Scientology his attorney's E-Mail, but it goes more to
          21    what I have been proposing at this hearing.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, Mr. Dandar said he
          23         hadn't seen these.  So I didn't go through these
          24         other ones with him.
          25              THE COURT:  Right.
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           1    BY MR. LIROT:
           2         Q    Just to sum it up, do you recognize any of the
           3    exhibits attached to Exhibit 264?
           4              THE COURT:  Well, recognize?
           5    BY MR. LIROT:
           6         Q    Have you seen them before?
           7         A    Well, I -- I haven't seen A before.  But when it
           8    comes to B, there is some similarity there, a lot of
           9    similarity.
          10         Q    From C on, I think we already talked about the
          11    fifth amended complaint.
          12         A    I haven't looked at all these.  Mmm, I didn't see
          13    E.  I didn't see F.  I didn't see G.  Well, H actually
          14    confirms what I just said about Minton not talking to me.
          15    But that is between Merrett and Bob and Stacy and I never
          16    saw that before.  But what is highlighted confirms that
          17    Minton is not talking to me.  And this is dated -- I don't
          18    know when it's dated.
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  Which one are you on?
          20              MR. LIROT:  H.
          21              THE WITNESS:  I'm on H.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  It is August 23rd, 2001 -- or
          23         August 22, 2001.
          24              THE COURT:  It is?
          25              MR. LIROT:  Mine says June 2nd, 2002.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  No, that is when it is taken off
           2         the hard drive by Mr. Minton.  If you go to Page 3,
           3         you'll see the E-Mail message from Merrett to Brooks
           4         and Minton dated August 22nd, 2 -- 2001.  The 2002
           5         date is just when Mr. Minton retrieved it for this
           6         hearing.
           7              THE COURT:  I see.
           8              MR. LIROT:  Judge, obviously to the extent
           9         Mr. Dandar hasn't received these -- and they look to
          10         be communications between Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and
          11         Mr. Merrett -- I certainly would raise a relevance
          12         objection.  I don't know what relevance those would
          13         have in this hearing.
          14              THE COURT:  I don't, either.  But the truth of
          15         the matter is I admitted them, they'll stay
          16         admitted, and I'll have to sort them out at some
          17         time.  It is just too big, I will --
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  We'll show you in the argument.
          19              THE COURT:  In the argument, please.
          20         A    I haven't seen any of the other documents, like I,
          21    either.  So that is the first time today I'm looking at
          22    this.  But there is mention of Ursula Caberta in one of
          23    those documents.  And that is another interesting point of
          24    people --
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, if Mr. Dandar hadn't
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           1         seen them, and I couldn't ask him about them, he
           2         should not be commenting on them.
           3              THE COURT:  That is true.
           4              MR. LIROT:  Fair enough.
           5              THE COURT:  If that is an objection, it is --
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
           7              THE COURT:  -- sustained.
           8              THE WITNESS:  I wasn't commenting --
           9              THE COURT:  You know, but there wasn't even a
          10         question here.  You just started to want to talk
          11         about something.
          12              THE WITNESS:  I know.
          13              THE COURT:  So that is the objection.  And that
          14         is sustained.
          15              THE WITNESS:  Okay.
          16              THE COURT:  Or if that wasn't it, I put a new
          17         name on it.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  It was an objection.
          19              THE COURT:  Sustained.
          20    BY MR. LIROT:
          21         Q    Mr. Dandar, have you ever had concerns over the
          22    use of court reporters in any proceedings related to the
          23    Lisa McPherson wrongful death case in, I guess, proceedings
          24    out of state?
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Beyond the scope,
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           1         your Honor.
           2              THE COURT:  I hate to say this but I don't know
           3         exactly what this has to do with it so for now I'll
           4         overrule your objection.
           5         A    Well, when my --
           6              THE COURT:  The answer to that is yes, I guess.
           7         A    Yes.  Sorry.  My clients' depositions were taken
           8    by Mr. Weinberg in December of '99, I believe that is the
           9    right date, in Texas, Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson and Lee
          10    Skelton and Sam Davis.
          11              When we received the transcripts, my client raised
          12    some questions.  Without telling you what she said, those
          13    questions caused me to look at the transcripts and wonder --
          14    and my computer notes and wonder if, in fact, I received all
          15    of the transcript or there was some missing.
          16              And -- and I had questions about that because
          17    there -- something wasn't right, but I couldn't put my
          18    finger on how I could prove something wasn't right.
          19              And -- and I have used this firm before.  But I
          20    just discovered that the Atkinson-Baker court reporting firm
          21    that Scientology uses for their out-of-state depositions are
          22    a Scientology company, owned and operated by well-to-do
          23    public Scientologists.  And --
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  Oh --
          25         A    -- I discovered that there is a case that
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           1    sanctions the use of a Scientology-run and owned company by
           2    public Scientologists in cases involving the Church of
           3    Scientology because of the conflict of interest.
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I have no idea what
           5         he's talking about, but -- what is he saying?  I
           6         mean, he's got a videotape of a deposition.  His
           7         client did an errata sheet.
           8              THE COURT:  If that is an objection, state it,
           9         that it didn't seem to be relevant to this
          10         proceeding.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection, relevance.
          12              THE COURT:  Sustained.  Unless you are
          13         specifically talking about some transcript in this
          14         hearing you believe is wrong you want to offer some
          15         proof of, then I think that is irrelevant for now.
          16    BY MR. LIROT:
          17         Q    Let me ask you these questions in conclusion.
          18              Have you ever asked Stacy Brooks or Bob Minton to
          19    perjure themselves or say anything that was untrue in any
          20    court proceeding?
          21         A    Never.  Never.
          22         Q    Have you ever asked anybody to hide any issues
          23    about any checks or any money you received from Mr. Minton
          24    or from any other source?
          25         A    Never.
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           1         Q    Have you ever asked anybody to hide any secret
           2    agreement or agreement dealing with the bulk of any award
           3    from the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Asked and answered.
           5              THE COURT:  Sustained.
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  Beyond the scope.
           7              MR. LIROT:  I just wanted to end on a nice
           8         conclusory point, your Honor.
           9              THE COURT:  Well, you want to ask two or three
          10         more questions and conclude it?
          11              MR. LIROT:  I think I'll conclude it right now.
          12              THE COURT:  All right.
          13              MR. LIROT:  Thank you.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  I have two questions.
          15              THE COURT:  All right.
          16                       RECROSS-EXAMINATION
          17    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          18         Q    Now, you said, in a question -- in a response to a
          19    question from Mr. -- from Mr. Lirot, that you had called or
          20    talked to Lee Strope, asking him to arrange to meet with
          21    Jesse Prince concerning these allegations of extortion,
          22    blackmail, RICO.  Correct?
          23         A    Well --
          24         Q    Is that yes?  Am I right?
          25         A    The answer is almost yes.  There was a call either
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           1    from Lee Strope to me, or me to Lee Strope, because Jesse --
           2    something was going on, Jesse was meeting with them and I
           3    wanted to make sure Lee Strope was there.
           4         Q    And can you date that for us?
           5         A    No.
           6         Q    Well, it's after April 14th?
           7         A    Well, yes, it is after April 14th.
           8         Q    And other than Mr. Strope, did you talk to any
           9    other law enforcement officer with regard to these
          10    allegations of extortion, blackmail, concerning Mr. Minton
          11    and the Church of Scientology?
          12         A    I answered that before.  The answer is yes.
          13         Q    And what agency is that?
          14              MR. LIROT:  Judge, asked and answered.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Well, your Honor --
          16              THE COURT:  It wasn't answered.  He said he
          17         didn't want to answer it.  And I still don't know
          18         why you need to know the answer to that.  He said he
          19         doesn't want to answer that because the law
          20         enforcement office asked him not to reveal it.
          21              You know, the truth of the matter is I can't
          22         sustain that.  Tell him.
          23         A    The FBI.
          24    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          25         Q    And is there a particular person there?
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           1         A    There is.  But I don't remember --
           2         Q    Who is that?
           3         A    I don't know.  I can't recall.
           4         Q    And when was it?
           5         A    Well, it was definitely after April 14th.
           6         Q    Did you meet with them?
           7         A    For several hours.  Yes.
           8         Q    And just summarize, summarize very quickly, what
           9    you told them.
          10              THE COURT:  I don't want to hear it.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  Thank you.  That is
          12         all my questions.
          13              THE COURT:  All right.  Is that all?
          14              MR. LIROT:  It is, Judge.  The only issue that
          15         we have --
          16              THE COURT:  Does that mean you are done with
          17         this witness?
          18              MR. LIROT:  I am done with this witness.
          19              THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.  You may step down.
          20         You may resume your seat.
          21              MR. DANDAR:  Thank you, your Honor.
          22                        (Witness excused.)
          23              THE COURT:  You may call your next witness.
          24              MR. LIROT:  No additional witnesses, Judge.
          25              THE COURT:  All right.  Any additional
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           1         information you wish to present into evidence at
           2         this time?
           3              MR. LIROT:  Judge, at this point, no.  But I
           4         would like to just give the Court a heads up.  We
           5         provided a request to produce to the defendants.
           6         And the only additional documents that we intend to
           7         submit into the record at this time are the unedited
           8         video of Jesse Prince that apparently is what has
           9         been called the departure meeting where he was
          10         apparently videotaped without his knowledge.
          11              We wanted the complete overt collection --
          12              THE COURT:  Stop just a second.  Maybe I --
          13         maybe I interfered with this.  But I know that at
          14         some point in time I thought there was an objection.
          15         Maybe the objection was by Mr. Prince.  Maybe the
          16         objection was by the lawyer.  Maybe everybody was
          17         objecting.  And they indicated that it was -- he
          18         didn't know about it.
          19              MR. LIROT:  Correct.
          20              THE COURT:  There was an objection.  And I
          21         think I said I wouldn't let it in.
          22              MR. WEINBERG:  That is what you did.
          23              THE COURT:  So now you want it in?  Is that it?
          24              MR. LIROT:  We would like to review it.  I'm
          25         just giving you heads up.  If there looks like there
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           1         might be some information on there, over and above
           2         what you saw and excluded, that might be of
           3         relevance to the case, we would like be able to
           4         supplement the record by that.
           5              MR. FUGATE:  I have absolutely no objection
           6         because I think if you saw it you would see the
           7         entire story of what happened from beginning to end.
           8         That is fine.  We offer it --
           9              MR. DANDAR:  No.  We just want to review it
          10         ourselves.
          11              MR. FUGATE:  We'll make it 274.
          12              MR. LIROT:  We don't want to introduce it yet,
          13         Judge.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry, but we want to play
          15         it.
          16              THE COURT:  He said he wanted it produced and
          17         he might admit it after that.  You have no objection
          18         to this being played or being received?
          19              MR. LIROT:  We need to review it first, Judge.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
          21              THE COURT:  Well, look, if it is here -- was it
          22         here that it was submitted, then I excluded it.  So,
          23         therefore, it is one of these things in evidence but
          24         it is not in evidence?
          25              MR. WEINBERG:  We were -- we were in the
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           1         process -- when you -- we were playing a part -- we
           2         were going to play the beginning and the end
           3         addressing some issues of Mr. Prince.
           4              But we will file it as an exhibit.  And they
           5         can have a copy of it.
           6              MR. LIROT:  Judge, we already objected to it.
           7         We just want to be able to review it.
           8              THE COURT:  I think counsel misspoke when he
           9         said he might want to introduce it because he maybe
          10         forgot there was an objection to it to keep it out.
          11         They want it produced.  You have no objection to
          12         producing it, obviously.
          13              MR. FUGATE:  No.  We will actually offer it as
          14         an exhibit in the rebuttal case.  So we have no
          15         objection.
          16              THE COURT:  Well, they want a copy.  So get
          17         them a copy of it.  Then you can offer it again in
          18         the rebuttal case.  And they will have a chance to
          19         see it.  And maybe they won't object to it.  And if
          20         they do object to it, I can reconsider.
          21              But they need -- you know, based on what
          22         Mr. Prince said, which he didn't know he was being
          23         videotaped, they have not seen it -- they need to
          24         see it.  So get that to them --
          25              MR. FUGATE:  Sure.  Sure.
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           1              THE COURT:  -- as soon as you can.  But if that
           2         is admitted, it will be admitted without objection
           3         as to however it is that they move to admit it, or
           4         on -- on rebuttal case, or on yours or by joint
           5         exhibit.
           6              MR. LIROT:  Fair enough.  We also requested the
           7         complete overt data collection on Ken Dandar.
           8              We also ask for --
           9              THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I don't know what you're
          10         talking about.  An overt data --
          11              MR. LIROT:  There was a check sheet that
          12         Mr. Oliver authenticated as being part of the OSA
          13         package on how they conduct investigations on
          14         people.  And we've actually requested the ODC, overt
          15         data collection, on Mr. Dandar, assuming that OSA
          16         may have collected the data and the check sheet on
          17         him, as part of the records.
          18              THE COURT:  All right.
          19              MR. LIROT:  We also requested the hat pack.  As
          20         you recall, Mr. Lieberman submitted an objection
          21         that apparently one of the exhibits we wanted to get
          22         into the record was a fabrication or a fraud of some
          23         sort.  We've asked for the -- I guess a copy of the
          24         Guardian's Office hat pack that isn't a fabrication.
          25              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Actually -- actually, he
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           1         testified -- Mr. Oliver testified he never saw it
           2         until after he was out of the Church, so it wasn't
           3         part of his hat pack, by his own testimony, and that
           4         is the reason the Court had excluded it.
           5              THE COURT:  I don't remember.  I'm sorry, they
           6         asked something be produced.  If they have an
           7         objection to it, I'll resolve it, but not right now.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  We just got it so --
           9              THE COURT:  I'll try to deal with it before the
          10         end of the hearing.  If not, we'll deal with it, you
          11         know, at some point in time.  And if it needs to be
          12         added to a list of exhibits, why, I'll do that.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  We had some outstanding requests
          14         we made on them that we never received.
          15              For example, calendars with regard --
          16              THE COURT:  Would you all please try to deal
          17         with those in the usual fashion, which is notice to
          18         produce, either do that, or file an objection.  If
          19         you want to have a hearing, have a hearing.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  Fine.
          21              MR. LIROT:  That wasn't --
          22              MR. DANDAR:  We produced it.
          23              MR. LIROT:  Judge, I wasn't bringing it up as a
          24         discovery problem.  I just wanted to let the Court
          25         know we would probably supplement the record with
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           1         that once it is produced.
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  So subject to that --
           3              THE COURT:  Subject to that, you are done?
           4              MR. LIROT:  Correct.
           5              ______________________________________
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           1                      REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
           2
           3    STATE OF FLORIDA         )
           4    COUNTY OF PINELLAS       )
           5              I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
                certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
           6    report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
                a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
           7
                          I further certify that I am not a relative,
           8    employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
                am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
           9    attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
                financially interested in the action.
          10
          11              DATED this 17th day of July, 2002.
          12
          13
          14                              ______________________________
                                              LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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