IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 1
TESTIMONY OF BEN
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SHAW (ON REBUTTAL)
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: July 18, 2002. Morning Session
PLACE: Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Page 2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff
5
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
6 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
7 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
8
9 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
10 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
11 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization
13
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
14 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
15 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
16
17 MS. MONIQUE E. YINGLING
ZUCKERT, SCOUTT & RASENBERGER
18 888 17th St. NW
Washington, DC 2006-3939
19 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 (The proceedings began at 9 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: So, could this be the day,
3 gentlemen?
4 MR. FUGATE: This is it, as far as I'm
5 concerned.
6 THE COURT: Well, we'll see. Let's hope.
7 Hope springs eternal.
8 Okay. Let's see. Yesterday we talked about
9 the motions that are pending that I have not ruled on,
10 one of which is the net accumulation and one of which
11 is a motion for summary judgment on the negligence
12 claim. And it is agreed that I could do those on the
13 pleadings.
14 Mr. Dandar, have you responded to either of
15 those yet?
16 MR. DANDAR: No, Judge. I believe you gave
17 me until tomorrow to do that.
18 THE COURT: Okay. But you plan to respond
19 by tomorrow?
20 MR. DANDAR: I'm working on my fifth draft
21 right here.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Now, are there any other major
25 motions like that outstanding that you all are aware
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1 of?
2 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't recall any, your
3 Honor.
4 THE COURT: I don't either. Of course,
5 there's this motion for summary judgment on Count I.
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. Well, of course --
7 THE COURT: And you're going to respond to
8 that --
9 MR. DANDAR: Oh, yes.
10 THE COURT: -- too.
11 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
12 THE COURT: And to some extent, I suppose
13 that will be addressed in the closing arguments.
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
15 THE COURT: There's matters that have come
16 up here. I'm going to allow the sworn testimony that
17 has come up here to be included in any argument --
18 MR. LIEBERMAN: I understand.
19 THE COURT: -- regarding both the motion to
20 dismiss and the motion for summary judgment. So in
21 other words, whatever you have attached is attached --
22 you may refer -- well, let's see.
23 Yes, I guess -- I guess that would be --
24 they're going to interrelate.
25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
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1 THE COURT: So I'll hold off on that one.
2 MR. DANDAR: Do you really want attachments
3 when you have all these binders in front of you?
4 THE COURT: You know, I really don't on
5 the -- on some things. But I'll be honest with you.
6 I'm not sure if I wouldn't appreciate at least some
7 reference -- some good reference. I mean, I'm going
8 to take all these books my clerk has been preparing
9 for me home.
10 I hope I've got everything. You know,
11 sometimes I take them home; I put them in my chambers.
12 I brought a whole bunch of them back today.
13 I suppose what you can do is refer to the
14 evidence number, and if I'm missing it, I could
15 contact -- perhaps if you all would agree, I could
16 contact either side. If it's a plaintiff's exhibit, I
17 would call Mr. Dandar. If it's a defense exhibit --
18 or just say I'm missing it, could you supply it to me.
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: I assume, thought, that you
20 want both sides, when they refer -- make a factual
21 assertion as to what's in the record to refer
22 specifically where in the record at least it is.
23 THE COURT: I sure do. I sure do. And I
24 won't object if somebody wants to attach -- I don't
25 know, I guess it would just get too out of hand,
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1 probably. Yes, better not to.
2 But the record is huge. So it may be, if
3 you're referring to the record, you might want to put
4 it in there for me so I don't have to go rooting
5 through five or six volumes.
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Absolutely.
7 THE COURT: Make it easy for me, is what I'm
8 saying.
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's what we'll try and
10 do.
11 THE COURT: Try to make it easy. But you're
12 right. If you're going to attach -- you know, refer
13 to one of those affidavits that's 25 pages long, why,
14 you sure don't have to attach the whole affidavit.
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
16 MR. DANDAR: Since we're going to finish
17 this hearing today, I need -- we need to talk about if
18 you want a hearing on something next week. Because if
19 you don't, like I said yesterday, like Mr. Weinberg,
20 since he's taking off for a week, I'd like to take my
21 family somewhere.
22 THE COURT: As far as I'm concerned -- I
23 have senior judge coverage, but if they'll not know
24 that I'm missing, I'm going to go home and rule on
25 these motions, just like I would if I were hearing you
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1 here.
2 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
3 THE COURT: But, you know, somebody might
4 not think that's proper. But to me, what's the
5 difference if I'm sitting in here or --
6 MR. DANDAR: Right.
7 MR. FUGATE: Maybe we should notice them for
8 hearing.
9 THE COURT: No. It's no "body" they would
10 look for. It's, "Where is she?" you know.
11 MR. DANDAR: Looks like you're coming down
12 with something.
13 THE COURT: Yes. No, I think I will be all
14 right. I think the Chief Judge will understand. So
15 I'm going to take advantage of that and try to at
16 least get those two small matters -- not small,
17 really, but two matters that certainly need to be
18 resolved out of the way.
19 You know, at some point in time, obviously,
20 if -- if the defendant is unsuccessful in their
21 motion, we need a major case management conference.
22 I keep wondering why we can't get rid of --
23 don't misunderstand when I say "rid of" -- but why we
24 have to have these individual defendants' names. It
25 seems to me every one of them is going to -- the
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1 allegation -- whatever it is that the allegations are
2 against them, it seems as if they were working within
3 the scope of the authority that they were given. So
4 it would seem like the jury is going to be instructed
5 on that. And consequently, I wonder why they have to
6 be named individuals.
7 MR. DANDAR: Judge, if there's a stipulation
8 as to what you just said -- I said before I have no
9 problem dismissing the individual defendants. But I
10 want them here when I need them to be here.
11 For instance, Janis Johnson, I have been
12 told by her counsel, now works in Los Angeles. I
13 said, "When I need her to be here to testify, can you
14 can guarantee she'll be here?" And he said he would
15 make it -- you know, make sure that would happen.
16 But if you put that on the record that that
17 will happen, then I have no problem with that.
18 THE COURT: Well, it seems like there's
19 advantages to both sides to considering allowing this
20 to happen -- several advantages.
21 Number one, the array of lawyers on the
22 defendant's side is going to be so huge that, number
23 one, it's going to be extremely cumbersome in the
24 courtroom. It's going to -- you know, it's just going
25 to be massive -- massive lawyers, massive people
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1 sitting at a table. You know, we can do this. We've
2 done this before. But it just doesn't seem necessary.
3 In other words, I have not yet, at least --
4 I just don't know the case -- I know a lot more about
5 peripheral things than I know about the case,
6 obviously. But it just seems as if, from the
7 allegations that I've heard, that most of the
8 allegations that would apply to the individual
9 defendants were matters that occurred during their
10 watching over, treatment of, caring for the --
11 Ms. McPherson and at the direction of the supervisor
12 or themselves, as the MLO officer or the dentist in
13 charge, doctor.
14 So I just -- I think it would be very
15 difficult for the Church to suggest that if they did
16 something that it was outside the scope of sort of
17 their employment.
18 So that being the case, it seems like it's
19 not necessary for them to be here. There's an
20 advantage, of course, to the Church and perhaps to the
21 plaintiff in that there are extra jury challenges,
22 that we can set some fair number that both sides will
23 have without it. So if that's an advantage, we could
24 remedy that.
25 The obvious need for the plaintiff would be
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1 that the defendant would have to agree that if they
2 would be present, physically present -- which they
3 would be if they were named defendants, if he wanted
4 to call them live. And I assume that could be
5 arranged.
6 So, you know, as I said, the disadvantage
7 obviously is just a whole bunch of extra lawyers and
8 extra people and a lot of extra questions, perhaps, to
9 say nothing of the fact that the -- just -- it just
10 sometimes gets overwhelming to have a lot of --
11 I mean, Mr. Houghton's name rarely, if ever,
12 has come up in anything I've done. So his lawyer
13 would be sitting here for months to really inquire
14 maybe half of a day. It seems like an awful waste of
15 time and money for a lawyer to sit, which he would
16 have to do, presumably, if this Mr. Houghton is a
17 named defendant.
18 Ms. Johnson would have, obviously, a lawyer
19 that would have more to do. Mr. Kartuzinski,
20 certainly, his lawyer would have more to do. But it
21 just -- it just seems to me we ought to be able to
22 work something out.
23 MR. DANDAR: We're willing to do that,
24 Judge.
25 THE COURT: Okay. So you all think about
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1 it.
2 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
3 THE COURT: And that's something I think we
4 ought to try to address. So there may be other
5 advantages and disadvantages I certainly am not
6 thinking about right now. But that's something I
7 would like you --
8 But I did tell you all to please address, if
9 there's a trial, whether there will be a trial on both
10 the plaintiff's wrongful death and the defendants'
11 counterclaim.
12 And I really tried to just catch up on my
13 reading last night, and therefore, I didn't do much
14 thinking. I know I told you all I would try to tell
15 you things that -- if I come up with a list of things,
16 I'll just fax them to both sides.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: That would be great.
18 THE COURT: You might address these things
19 or some concern.
20 MR. DANDAR: Well, we do need a case
21 management --
22 THE COURT: Well, you do.
23 MR. DANDAR: -- and we do need to get these
24 depositions scheduled.
25 THE COURT: Well, that needs to be done.
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1 But, you know, they explained some of the problems.
2 You are aware of some of the problems. And I assume
3 that you all will work that out.
4 Perhaps some determination could be made for
5 Judge Beach as well, because I know his schedule is
6 such that -- he covers for other judges. He likes to
7 work. And he gets frustrated if he's scheduled
8 something to work for another judge for three weeks
9 and then all of a sudden you all want depositions.
10 That's a real inconvenience for him and the judge that
11 he's, you know, agreed to sit in for.
12 MR. DANDAR: And would you permit us -- if
13 we stipulate on some depositions we may not need Judge
14 Beach and if we stipulate to that --
15 THE COURT: Yes. Like I told you, as far as
16 I'm concerned, that's a decision that's made by
17 somebody else. I think probably it's been helpful to
18 both sides.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I think it has. And I
20 suggested that to Mr. Dandar yesterday, that on these
21 experts it's not --
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: -- it's not essential, I
24 don't think.
25 THE COURT: I would agree -- certainly agree
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1 with that.
2 And in any event, I look forward to
3 finishing today.
4 MR. WEINBERG: So do we.
5 THE COURT: So, Mr. Fugate, you may
6 continue.
7 MR. FUGATE: Good morning, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Good morning.
9 MR. FUGATE: I have a motion for special
10 appearance on behalf of Church of Scientology
11 International. You saw Ms. Yingling.
12 THE COURT: I did.
13 MR. FUGATE: This is a copy for you and a
14 copy for Mr. Dandar.
15 She's here on behalf of CSI and would like
16 to present a motion.
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 MR. FUGATE: Actually, she was here
19 yesterday, but I didn't think we could squeeze that in
20 at the end of the day based on your Honor --
21 THE COURT: I think that's probably right.
22 And besides that, it's always better to have motions
23 heard in the morning when everybody is fresh.
24 Good morning.
25 MS. YINGLING: Good morning, your Honor.
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1 It's a pleasure to be here on this side, as opposed to
2 that side, today.
3 I'm appearing here specially today on behalf
4 of the Church of Scientology International to offer an
5 in camera inspection of the upper level auditing
6 folders of Lawrence Wollersheim.
7 The reason for my special appearance is that
8 Jesse Prince has sworn in his affidavit entered in
9 this case and testified under oath in this proceeding
10 that under orders from David Miscavige, among others,
11 that he destroyed all of the upper level auditing
12 files of Lawrence Wollersheim.
13 This testimony was false, your Honor, and
14 Mr. Prince knew it was false, as demonstrated by the
15 very files which are the subject of this motion.
16 These, your Honor, are the upper level
17 auditing files of Lawrence Wollersheim. They have
18 existed since the day they were created. They were
19 never destroyed. No one in the Church ever ordered
20 Mr. Prince to destroy those files.
21 Jesse Prince, your Honor, has been lying in
22 this proceeding since the first time he opened his
23 mouth. And as you know, it is very, very difficult to
24 disprove lies when witnesses are willing to fabricate
25 evidence. But this is one lie that the Church can
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1 disprove. These files exist.
2 They're here. They were never destroyed.
3 They were never pulped. They were never reduced to
4 scraps in a jar.
5 The Church of Scientology is not offering
6 these files into evidence, and it is not asking the
7 Court to review the content of the files. They're
8 just being offered for the fact that they exist and
9 for the Church to -- for the Court, excuse me, to make
10 an in camera review of whatever is necessary of these
11 files to the extent you need to in order to determine
12 the obvious fact that the files indeed are
13 Mr. Wollersheim's files.
14 They're all labeled with his name. Many of
15 them actually have his handwriting in them, because
16 there are solo auditing files, a procedure by which a
17 parishioner actually self-audits. They have his
18 handwriting in them.
19 They're dated. And as you can see, they
20 look like they're 20 or more years old.
21 Mr. Prince has made a number of allegations
22 about the destruction of these folders. He has
23 maligned the reputation of Church officials, and
24 including -- and also a prominent member of the
25 Massachusetts bar, Mr. Cooley, having said that Earle
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1 Cooley ordered him to destroy these files. And this
2 testimony was false, as is most of the testimony of
3 Mr. Prince.
4 Because of the privileged and confidential
5 nature of these files, as I said, they can't be
6 offered into evidence, but I do offer them for an
7 in camera inspection.
8 And I have had a photo taken of the files so
9 that, to the extent if there's something necessary for
10 evidence, Mr. Fugate will offer the photograph of
11 these files into evidence.
12 And attached to the motion, your Honor, is
13 an authenticating affidavit from Mr. Neil Levin, who
14 is the custodian of records from CSI. And Mr. Levin
15 sets forth in his affidavit that he personally
16 unlocked the storage locker where these auditing files
17 were kept, and he turned them over to my custody at my
18 request.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MS. YINGLING: Thank you, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Thank you.
22 MS. YINGLING: If your Honor would like to
23 take a look at the files now, I would be happy to
24 accommodate that.
25 THE COURT: Let me listen to Mr. Dandar, and
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1 then let me contemplate for a minute.
2 MS. YINGLING: Thank you, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 Mr. Dandar.
5 MR. DANDAR: First, if counsel is going to
6 get up here and call someone a liar, then I think that
7 counsel needs to get on the stand under oath and let's
8 talk about what personal knowledge she knows that
9 makes her say that Mr. Prince is a liar on everything
10 he's testified in this court.
11 Number two, I request that Mr. Prince be
12 given the opportunity to review these files to see
13 exactly what's in them, compared to what the files
14 were like when he left the Church of Scientology.
15 Number three, I request the Court to permit
16 me to bring in by -- either live or by affidavit the
17 attorneys representing Mr. Wollersheim when this
18 occurred and Mr. Wollersheim and Mr. Rick Aznaran, who
19 I believe lives in Texas, to testify before you as to
20 their personal knowledge -- not somebody who has been
21 told what to say, but their personal knowledge as to
22 what happened to Mr. Wollersheim's files.
23 THE COURT: Well --
24 MR. DANDAR: I don't see how you could
25 possibly sit here, based upon someone who doesn't have
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1 personal knowledge who is telling you, "Yes, these are
2 the files of Mr. Wollersheim and not one of them were
3 pulped" -- this attorney can't testify to that, nor do
4 I believe that Mr. Levin could testify to that, but
5 the individuals that I request to either come before
6 you in person, which is probably the best avenue, or
7 by affidavit to tell you what they recall that
8 happened to Mr. Wollersheim's PC folders.
9 THE COURT: Well, a couple things that come
10 to my mind before I let Ms. Yingling respond. Number
11 one is that it's my recollection that these are
12 confidential folders. And therefore, I'm sure that
13 the Church wouldn't want somebody going through those
14 folders.
15 I don't know who they're confidential to. I
16 don't know whether Mr. Wollersheim has some ability to
17 go through them or not. I will hear them on that.
18 Certainly he ought to know, I suppose,
19 what -- he ought to have some interest in his own
20 file. He would know whether they're his or not.
21 Certainly he can identify his own handwriting and that
22 type of thing.
23 I don't know if I really need to hear from
24 anybody else. I mean, in other words, Mr. Prince's
25 testimony is what it is. I suppose if we get into
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1 that we can have 15 witnesses. Some would say they
2 were pulped; some would say they weren't pulped. I
3 don't know what that would really accomplish.
4 Certainly you can present affidavits. I
5 have no problem with that. I have no problem with
6 your presenting affidavits from the lawyers; I have no
7 problem with the Church presenting affidavits.
8 Probably that isn't going to resolve much because
9 we're going to have differences there.
10 Do you have any objection to my reviewing
11 them to see whether or not I think that there's
12 anything in them that shows one thing or the other?
13 You're right. Obviously, I -- number one, I
14 have no interest in reading all those files. That is
15 an absolute given. I wouldn't know what they said; I
16 wouldn't know what they meant.
17 I would be capable, however, if somebody
18 would tell me when Mr. Wollersheim entered the Church
19 of Scientology and when Mr. Wollersheim left the
20 Church of Scientology, to -- to have some ability to
21 look to see if there seem to be -- I guess my -- my
22 problem with -- I really wouldn't know myself what
23 should be in them.
24 In other words, I've heard in this hearing
25 things that should be in them that -- you know, I
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1 wouldn't know necessarily whether they were complete
2 or not. I would know whether or not they spanned
3 certain dates. That I certainly could tell. I
4 presume the material is dated in the file.
5 So there may be some advantage to my looking
6 at them in camera. And yet again, it may be something
7 where it would be of very little help to me.
8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm amazed that the
9 Church of Scientology has volunteered to have you
10 review someone's Pre-Clear folders.
11 THE COURT: They didn't. They didn't ask --
12 read the motion. They did not request me to review
13 the content but to look at whatever would help me to
14 know whether or not these are his files.
15 MR. DANDAR: There's no way you're going to
16 be able to do that. You're going to need someone who
17 knows Scientology to review these files, like
18 Mr. Prince. You're going to have to have
19 Mr. Wollersheim come and look at these to see if these
20 are really his files or something that is created just
21 for hearing. And then the -- and then I'll try to get
22 affidavits from the other people.
23 I'm worried about Mr. Aznaran, because I
24 know from reading a case that he and his wife settled
25 with Scientology and had this non-cooperation clause
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1 in their settlement in the case. So I'm not going to
2 be able, I don't think, to get the cooperation of
3 Mr. Aznaran.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Aznaran would know what?
5 What would he --
6 MR. DANDAR: Well, he's -- he's the one that
7 Jesse Prince says -- he's the one that actually took
8 the files and went had and them pulped. That's the
9 person -- he would have the most personal knowledge.
10 THE COURT: That's probably true.
11 MR. DANDAR: That's a problem I have.
12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
13 Ms. Yingling.
14 MS. YINGLING: Thank you, your Honor.
15 First of all, Mr. Prince testified both in
16 his affidavit and in this hearing, I believe, that the
17 entire files were pulped. So the question of whether
18 or not there might be pages missing or whether the
19 files are entirely there I think is not relevant to
20 the reason why we're asking you to take an in camera
21 inspection, but simply to see that clearly the entire
22 files were not pulped.
23 There were two sets of auditing files with
24 respect to Mr. Wollersheim's time period as a
25 parishioner in the Church of Scientology. His lower
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1 level files, those files were actually produced to the
2 Court during the Wollersheim proceeding.
3 And attached to the affidavit of Neil Levin
4 there is actually an excerpt from the transcript of
5 the court proceeding which indicates that the lower
6 level PC files were actually turned over to the Court
7 and that the Court took custody of them.
8 What Mr. Prince then testified to was that
9 there was an order that all of the upper level files
10 be turned over. And rather than turn over those
11 files, they were ordered to be destroyed by
12 Mr. Miscavige, Mr. Rathbun, Mr. Cooley.
13 First of all, there was never an order by
14 the Court in the Wollersheim trial that the
15 auditing -- upper level auditing files be turned over.
16 The Court in that case, under the -- under
17 the doctrine of the Ballard case, realized that these
18 were confidential religious materials and should not
19 be turned over, and consequently the Court in the
20 Wollersheim case did not order them to be turned over.
21 They were not pulped. They were not
22 destroyed, as testified by Mr. Prince. They have
23 existed since that time. They were maintained by the
24 Church in the confidential procedures that they always
25 maintained them in.
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1 Your Honor, I hear Mr. Dandar saying that
2 you are not capable of determining whether or not
3 these are actually auditing files or complete or
4 whatever. I'm not a Scientologist either, and I can't
5 tell whether these auditing files are complete or not
6 either.
7 But I can tell from looking at these files
8 that they belonged to Mr. Wollersheim, that they are
9 quite old. And when you look through them and see the
10 dates and the kinds of papers that are in them, they
11 are the auditing files of Larry Wollersheim.
12 Based on my representation of the Church, I
13 know enough to know what a PC folder looks like. And,
14 your Honor, I think based on what you've heard in this
15 hearing that you, too, are capable of being able to
16 determine whether or not these files are authentic.
17 And so I would again ask that you review these files
18 in camera to make that determination.
19 You are correct that, because of the
20 Church's policy regarding confidentiality, they cannot
21 be offered into evidence.
22 This was a very, very difficult decision for
23 the Court to make to even bring these files in.
24 THE COURT: The Church?
25 MS. YINGLING: Oh, I'm sorry, the Church to
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1 even bring these files here.
2 And they are not the property of
3 Mr. Wollersheim. They are the property of the Church.
4 Church policy requires that all auditing files are
5 consistently maintained by the Church. In fact, there
6 is Church policy that says specifically that a
7 parishioner may never see his own auditing files.
8 And in fact, you'll -- you'll see -- we need
9 to give you all the transcript from the California
10 proceeding, but Mr. Wollersheim didn't want to see his
11 own files even when they were produced in that
12 proceeding because of the Church policy that a
13 parishioner never sees his own auditing files.
14 They are maintained by the Church, and they
15 are maintained forever. Whether an individual
16 continues to be an active parishioner of the Church or
17 whether an individual leaves the Church, the Church
18 still maintains the files. They believe that they
19 could become useful to that individual in his next
20 life.
21 THE COURT: All right. I'll tell you what
22 I'm going to do. I'm going to suggest to Mr. Dandar
23 that if in fact you believe that there was an order by
24 the California court to produce the upper level
25 auditing files that you find it and produce it or have
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Page 25
1 somebody out in California find it and produce that.
2 And then whatever it would be, it would
3 follow that, showing that nothing was produced
4 pursuant to that order, that they couldn't be found or
5 they weren't -- they didn't exist or whatever. That
6 perhaps would be helpful.
7 At the Church's suggestion, I think that
8 what I will do is maybe just take a brief look, see
9 what, if anything, that does for me. And so I'm going
10 to -- I'm going to see how the hearing goes today. If
11 we finish up, perhaps I could just do that today while
12 they're here.
13 I'm not promising that it will tell me
14 anything, because I really -- obviously, I don't know.
15 I've never seen an auditing file. But as I said,
16 surely I can -- can somebody give me two dates, when
17 did Mr. Wollersheim enter the Church of Scientology
18 for the purposes of beginning his auditing and when
19 did he leave, so that there would be no more auditing
20 files?
21 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm trying -- I did the
22 appeal in the Wollersheim case, so I think my memory
23 is fairly accurate, although it's been a number of
24 years.
25 I believe the first time he came into any
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 26
1 Church of Scientology was in 1968. I believe he --
2 the last time he was in any Church of Scientology was
3 in 1979. And I believe his upper level auditing
4 spanned a period of around 1972 or 1973 to nineteen
5 seventy- --
6 THE COURT: Tell me those dates again.
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think he first came into
8 the Church -- into a Church of Scientology -- and I
9 think it was in the Midwest somewhere -- in around
10 1968. I believe he left around 1979. And I believe
11 his upper level files -- his upper level auditing
12 experiences began somewhere around 1972 or '73. But
13 I'm not sure of that latter date. I know that it
14 didn't begin until some time after he had been in,
15 obviously.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: But those are the dates the
18 best I can remember from --
19 THE COURT: At the very least, perhaps, I
20 could determine whether or not those, just by looking,
21 those files appear to be Mr. Wollersheim's files and
22 whether this picture, therefore, that they're going to
23 introduce purports to be those files. Otherwise, we
24 would have a picture and I wouldn't have any way of
25 knowing whether it was even related to those files.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 27
1 MR. DANDAR: Well, the picture that I saw
2 counsel hold up -- certainly it would be better to
3 take a picture as it sits on that table, rather than a
4 picture that counsel held up, because that picture
5 doesn't show the depth of the files. It makes the
6 files look a lot smaller than what appears on the
7 table.
8 THE COURT: Let me take a look at the
9 pictures.
10 MS. YINGLING: May I?
11 THE COURT: You may.
12 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm sorry, I looked at
13 it -- it's a different view. Okay. This is fine.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. WEINBERG: It's just standing.
16 THE COURT: Well, as I said, at the very
17 least, I could perhaps see whether or not by opening
18 them up it appeared to be something that belonged to
19 Mr. Wollersheim or Joe Doe's. So that could be
20 helpful.
21 So I will take advantage of some brief in
22 camera. I don't know to what extent. I don't know
23 and I won't suggest what that will tell me. But it
24 might tell me something, and for however it helps me,
25 I appreciate the opportunity.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 28
1 MS. YINGLING: Thank you, your Honor.
2 Just two more things. Obviously, Mr. Dandar
3 should do his own research with respect to the
4 question of an order in the court in California. But
5 I did bring an excerpt from the transcript where this
6 was discussed and I could read it to the Court. It's
7 very short.
8 The Court said -- having to do with the
9 production of the upper level files, the Court said:
10 "Well, in any event, the ground rule is the
11 upper level materials we're not going to be concerned
12 with because, under the Ballard case, the upper level
13 materials of necessity present to the jury, perhaps
14 collaterally, but certainly will present to the jury
15 the issue of the validity of the practices, perhaps
16 not directly but collaterally, and we are not supposed
17 to do that."
18 So that was the excerpt from the transcript,
19 which I'm happy to provide Mr. Dandar. As I say, he
20 should do his own research.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MS. YINGLING: The other thing, your
23 Honor --
24 THE COURT: Maybe we could both have a copy
25 of that --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 29
1 MS. YINGLING: Certainly.
2 THE COURT: -- to go along with this
3 picture.
4 MS. YINGLING: Thank you, your Honor.
5 The other thing, I'm embarrassed to say,
6 but -- because I had anticipated offering this motion
7 yesterday, your Honor. I actually have a plane to
8 take. And so, because these files were put in my
9 custody, I'm going to have to figure out and speak to
10 my client about what I should do about leaving them
11 and see if I could turn them over to someone else's
12 custody if your Honor can't look at them while I'm
13 here.
14 THE COURT: Okay. What time is your plane?
15 MS. YINGLING: I don't know -- I'm taking my
16 children to Africa today on a safari, and I actually
17 have a plane at 11:45, so . . .
18 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't you take
19 occasion to do that now and see if somebody -- maybe
20 Mr. Shaw could take possession of them briefly or
21 whatever you want to do.
22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, on the plaintiff's
23 behalf, I would like to have the Court protect
24 Mr. Aznaran and myself from talking together about
25 this and getting his cooperation to come here because
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 30
1 what I don't want to be -- if he agrees to come here,
2 I want it under the Court's umbrella of immunity,
3 litigation privilege, be able to come here and
4 testify.
5 And if they don't -- if the Church of
6 Scientology doesn't agree with that, then I don't
7 think you should consider this at all.
8 THE COURT: All right. I don't know -- I
9 think what he's saying is Mr. Aznaran, presumably, was
10 the person who actually destroyed some other files --
11 obviously not these files -- and Mr. Dandar would like
12 him to appear and say what he did.
13 Apparently this is another one of those
14 situations where there's some agreement -- I don't
15 know what it is -- some agreement that he will not,
16 what, cooperate unless ordered by the Court?
17 MR. DANDAR: Right. There's actually a
18 reported case on that, and I can give you a copy of
19 that. I can print it out on a break.
20 THE COURT: You all want to take a minute to
21 discuss that as well?
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm not quite sure what
23 we're being asked to do.
24 THE COURT: Well, I know. I can tell you
25 exactly what you're being asked to do, is you're being
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 31
1 asked if Mr. Wollersheim should appear pursuant to a
2 Court order --
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: You mean Mr. Aznaran?
4 THE COURT: Mr. Aznaran. What did I say?
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Mr. Wollersheim.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Wollersheim.
7 THE COURT: Oh, Mr. Aznaran. In other
8 words, if I should order Mr. Aznaran to come and give
9 testimony, that he won't be sued if there's some
10 agreement not to do that, I think is what you're being
11 asked.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we're not going to --
13 THE COURT: It goes to a conversation, so I
14 don't know if that's right or not, but --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Obviously, if you order
16 Mr. Aznaran to come, there would be no basis -- I
17 don't know what this agreement is, but there would be
18 no basis for him to be sued by the Church if the Court
19 orders Mr. Aznaran to come. So I don't think that's
20 an issue. It's not an issue.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. DANDAR: All right. I will try to find
23 Mr. Aznaran and make contact and ask him to come.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I think there's a difference
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 32
1 between, you know, not being sued and -- I don't know
2 what the status is of Mr. Aznaran. I mean, long ago,
3 I believe he was part of a lawsuit against the Church
4 of Scientology. And I have no idea what -- you know,
5 what his status of life is, whether he has any
6 interest whatsoever to come to Florida --
7 THE COURT: I don't either, and I'm not
8 ordering him -- in other words --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
10 THE COURT: -- all I'm doing is if
11 Mr. Aznaran wants to come --
12 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
13 THE COURT: -- then he'll have the
14 protection of the Court by simply the Court saying --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
16 THE COURT: -- "You're ordered to come." I
17 mean, I don't like to get involved with --
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right. So you're not
19 ordering him --
20 THE COURT: As I told you all before, you
21 have agreements.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
23 THE COURT: Those are different agreements.
24 If I want somebody here, I don't care what your
25 agreement says; I'm going to order him here, because I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 33
1 don't have that agreement.
2 MR. WEINBERG: But you're not ordering him
3 to come. You're just saying if he comes, then --
4 THE COURT: I'm not ordering him to come
5 right now, but if he feels that he would come if I
6 ordered him to come and that's the only basis upon
7 which he would come, then I would order him to come.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right. I want the record
9 clear. Is Ms. Yingling, on behalf of the Church of
10 Scientology, telling the Court that these are the
11 100 percent Pre-Clear folders of Mr. Wollersheim and
12 not one file has been destroyed or not presented to
13 you today?
14 MS. YINGLING: No, that is not what I'm
15 representing, your Honor. I'm representing that these
16 are the upper level auditing files that the Church of
17 Scientology International has maintained in the normal
18 course of its activities. That's not to say that -- a
19 page that has gotten lost or perhaps even a folder
20 that has gotten lost.
21 But these are the ones that the Church has
22 maintained; and, as Mr. -- Mr. Neil Levin testifies in
23 his affidavit, these are the ones that he found in the
24 secure locker that he personally opened to remove
25 these files.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 34
1 But, your Honor, there's been a number of
2 years that have passed since these files were created
3 and maintained, and I certainly can't represent that
4 every page is still there.
5 But let me reiterate that it was
6 Mr. Prince's testimony that the entire upper level
7 auditing files were destroyed at his -- at his
8 direction and that all that remained of them was a
9 little pulp in a jar.
10 THE COURT: And that -- frankly, I don't
11 remember exactly what his testimony was, but I'll have
12 a chance to review that. And that's why I say, I
13 honestly just can't remember exactly what he said.
14 I know he certainly said the files were
15 destroyed. But they were requested to be produced,
16 and they were destroyed and therefore not produced.
17 Whether they were all of the files or some of them, I
18 just can't remember. But I'll have that testimony at
19 some point in time to review.
20 Therefore, as I said, just a quick look to
21 see if these look like Mr. Wollersheim's files may be
22 helpful to me.
23 MS. YINGLING: If I can, your Honor, I think
24 this is a classic case of you know it when you see it.
25 You see these files, and you know that they are
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 35
1 authentic upper level auditing files.
2 MR. DANDAR: Could counsel put on the record
3 how many NED, N-E-D, for OT files for Mr. Wollersheim
4 are on the table.
5 THE COURT: I don't know what --
6 MS. YINGLING: Well, this one right here is
7 an NED for OT file.
8 MR. DANDAR: That's one.
9 MS. YINGLING: And this one is also. But I
10 don't know how many. I didn't count them myself.
11 This one is also. And this one is also. And this one
12 is also. There are quite a few.
13 THE COURT: So that was at least five --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Five.
15 THE COURT: -- that I would say, without
16 looking at what's in them --
17 MS. YINGLING: And I don't know if
18 they're -- if each file is a separate file or more
19 than one file could be encompassed in these rubber
20 bands. This one is rather hefty.
21 THE COURT: That one looks like it's
22 about -- I don't know what that is. Eight inches
23 maybe? I'm not very good --
24 MS. YINGLING: I would say at least, your
25 Honor. These -- yes, I would say that's 8 to 10.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 36
1 MR. LIEBERMAN: (Demonstrating) Eight to
2 ten.
3 MS. YINGLING: Yes, my shoe is
4 (demonstrating) --
5 THE COURT: Yes. So we'll say at least 8
6 to --
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's demonstrative
8 evidence.
9 MR. DANDAR: Could we also get counsel to
10 give us the complete transcript, rather than one page?
11 THE COURT: Well, I think that what she
12 suggested is that maybe you should do your own
13 research here.
14 MS. YINGLING: I think that would --
15 THE COURT: That's what she brought. What
16 I'm telling you is that if you want to produce
17 something, then you can certainly do that and you can
18 supplement the record. I'm not really going to
19 require them to do that for you.
20 MR. DANDAR: All right.
21 MR. FUGATE: Judge, may I make a suggestion?
22 I'm always hesitant to do that.
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 MR. FUGATE: But I have good news and good
25 news. I think one way that we may be able to solve
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 37
1 this -- I don't want to predispose what you want to do
2 in an in camera review -- but in the time that we're
3 going to go out, if the Court gives us a few minutes
4 to answer the questions that you've asked, I think if
5 your bailiff and the court reporter stayed and you
6 took an in camera look, if it is what it is when you
7 see it -- I think you're going to be able to
8 accomplish that.
9 And the good news is that after that, we
10 have virtually one other witness, and then we have a
11 lot of affidavits, sort of the same thing you saw
12 before, just putting in some evidence, one thing after
13 another. And we will be -- and I think there's a
14 couple of video clips, and that's it.
15 So we might be able to accomplish all this
16 in the time that we're still talking about it.
17 THE COURT: Okay. You might. But that's an
18 awful lot of folders, and I'm not going to pretend to
19 do an in camera in five minutes.
20 MR. FUGATE: I didn't mean to suggest --
21 THE COURT: Or 10 minutes, 15 minutes, or
22 half an hour. So I don't know that we can just take a
23 little break here and have me just take a look at the
24 first page and say I've done an in camera and those
25 are all Mr. Wollersheim's files.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 38
1 MR. FUGATE: It's a suggestion.
2 THE COURT: One I'm not going to take. In
3 other words, I'm not saying I'm going to take two
4 hours with this --
5 MR. FUGATE: Right.
6 THE COURT: -- but I'm going to take
7 whatever time I think I need to know either it's of no
8 use to me or some use. And I have no idea how long
9 I'm going to take.
10 MR. DANDAR: Just for the record -- can I
11 put on the record that when counsel went through these
12 five NED for OT files, the first one is No. 25. The
13 next one is numbered 26. The next one is numbered 24;
14 then the No. 23 and No. 22, and five files of NED for
15 OTs, which is an important distinguishment here.
16 There are only five produced, and the top number is
17 26.
18 MS. YINGLING: The other files are numbered,
19 I believe, 6 through 21, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: You see -- you know, as I said,
21 you're all trying to tell me something there. I've
22 been asked to do an in camera. I'll take a look and
23 I'll see whether there's anything. So that doesn't
24 mean a thing.
25 MR. DANDAR: Right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 39
1 THE COURT: There may be 1 through 24 or 1
2 through 26. That's the last --
3 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm just saying I
4 don't -- I don't believe the Court would able to sift
5 through and look at these files and make that
6 determination without expert assistance.
7 THE COURT: I think you're probably right,
8 Counsel. However, if the testimony is that all of
9 Mr. Wollersheim's files were pulped and I determine
10 that -- that's 8 inches. The next one is at least a
11 foot. The next one is at least a foot. And the next
12 one is probably at least a foot. So if that's the
13 case, then all of Mr. Wollersheim's files were not
14 pulped. I don't remember what the testimony was.
15 But thank you, Ms. Yingling, and I'll try to
16 give you a few minutes now to see -- what time is your
17 plane?
18 MS. YINGLING: 11:45, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: And that means you really need
20 to be there -- in Tampa? Are you flying out of Tampa?
21 MS. YINGLING: Yes, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: You need to be there by 10:45.
23 That means you need to leave here by 10:15. It's 20
24 minutes till 10:00. So a decision does have to be
25 made if she can turn those over to somebody. So if
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 40
1 she can't, then I can't do this today. We'll have to
2 do it another day. So let's just take 10 minutes and
3 see about that.
4 MS. YINGLING: Thank you, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Have a nice trip.
6 MS. YINGLING: Thank you, your Honor.
7 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court will be in
8 recess for ten minutes by the courtroom clock.
9 (Break taken at 9:40 p.m. until 10:08 a.m.)
10 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated.
11 Ms. Yingling, did you have an opportunity to
12 speak with --
13 MS. YINGLING: Yes, I did, your Honor. I
14 did have --
15 THE COURT: -- your client?
16 MS. YINGLING: -- an opportunity to speak
17 with my client. And they have agreed I could turn the
18 custody of the files over to Rick Moxon for purposes
19 of keeping them until your Honor has a chance to
20 review them in camera.
21 Mr. Moxon, of course, has represented CSI,
22 does represent the Church of Scientology
23 International, and he is also familiar with these
24 types of files. So I will turn them over to Mr. Moxon
25 for the purposes of review. And Mr. Moxon has assured
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 41
1 me that he will take custody of them once your Honor
2 is finished today and return them to the proper
3 officials of the Church.
4 THE COURT: All right. Fine.
5 What I've kind of decided to do -- what I
6 can do is, if we finish up, as I think you're saying
7 maybe we will, that I can perhaps do that with my
8 clerk and my court reporter and do a sealed --
9 MR. DANDAR: Good.
10 THE COURT: Anything that I would say on the
11 record, I probably ought to do it just in camera.
12 I'll ask the court reporter to seal it.
13 MS. YINGLING: Thank you. And, your Honor,
14 I think I did mention that there are some files in
15 here that are known as the solo auditing files, and
16 those do contain Mr. Wollersheim's handwriting. And
17 they are marked "solo" on the top, and they may be
18 ones -- you may want to put them on as well.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MS. YINGLING: Thank you very much, your
21 Honor, for accommodating me and accommodating my
22 schedule.
23 THE COURT: Yes. I'm glad we could do that.
24 And you may be excused, and you may hopefully enjoy
25 your trip out there.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 42
1 MS. YINGLING: Thank you very much, your
2 Honor.
3 (Ms. Yingling left the courtroom.)
4 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Fugate.
5 MR. FUGATE: For those who remain behind.
6 THE COURT: Yes, for those of us who don't
7 get to see the elephants and the zebras.
8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, at this time I'm
9 prepared to call Mr. Ben Shaw. There have been
10 specific allegations that have been made against him.
11 I want to advise the Court and Mr. Dandar
12 that we are calling him specifically in our rebuttal
13 case to rebut the specific comments that were made.
14 We will not waive any attorney-client or work product
15 privilege whatsoever, consistent with the Court's
16 rulings as to Mr. Dandar's investigators and his work
17 product privilege. We are going to ask for the same.
18 If we can now call him under those
19 conditions, I'm ready to call him, and it will be very
20 quick.
21 THE COURT: All right. You may. I may have
22 a couple of questions for Mr. Shaw; I may not.
23 I've already sworn you, I believe, Mr. Shaw.
24 You understand you're under that same oath?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 43
1 THE COURT: Is this your second witness in
2 rebuttal?
3 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Mr. Pope.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, right. You may
5 proceed.
6 MR. FUGATE: Seems like last week, but --
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 MR. FUGATE: I promise you, Judge, this will
9 go fast today.
10 BEN SHAW
11 having been previously duly sworn or affirmed, testified
12 upon rebuttal and said as follows:
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Mr. Shaw, would you state your name again for the
16 record.
17 A It's Ben Shaw.
18 Q And you have been sitting here during the last
19 several weeks of testimony -- actually, throughout all of
20 the weeks of testimony. Is that correct?
21 A Yes, I have, every day.
22 Q And I'm going to direct your attention to Frank
23 Oliver's testimony on Monday that in 1991, in California,
24 he -- that is, Mr. Oliver -- met with you and you gave to
25 him a credit report and phone records. Can you tell the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 44
1 Judge, is this accurate? Did this happen?
2 A No, that is not accurate. It's false. It never
3 happened. The first time that I recall ever recognizing
4 Frank Oliver as who he is was in February of 1999 at a
5 public hearing of the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority.
6 He was here, I believe, prior to that for
7 picketing in Clearwater; I didn't recognize who he was.
8 It was at that point where I first knew who Frank
9 Oliver was in person.
10 Q And on Monday -- I believe it was Monday -- this
11 week, a Ms. Hana Whitfield testified. And if I can direct
12 your attention back to her testimony, I think I recall her
13 testifying that you surveilled her at a bed and breakfast
14 in England in 1991. Can you tell the Judge whether or not
15 that testimony is accurate and whether that actually
16 happened?
17 A Yes, I can. That is not true.
18 Q Did I ask you to go back and see if you had your
19 passport for the year of 1991 that would cover that period
20 of time?
21 A Yes, you did, in fact. I have an expired
22 passport from that time period.
23 Q And do you have it with you?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q Can I ask you to take it out?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 45
1 A Yes.
2 Q And have you reviewed it?
3 A Yes, I did. I looked at it during that time
4 period. I had done some traveling overseas. In fact, I
5 went through England in 1989, in June, and again in July.
6 It was transit stops. I went to Italy and back.
7 I have a passport here. I looked through the
8 entire passport. I found no other entries for England,
9 only all other European countries.
10 MR. FUGATE: So for the year 1991 -- I don't
11 intend to offer your personal passport. But I would
12 like the Judge --
13 If you want to look at it, you're welcome
14 to, or if Mr. Dandar does. It does not reflect an
15 entry into England in 1990 or 1991, and I believe --
16 or '92.
17 THE COURT: I've never been real sure how to
18 read these, because I went to Italy and mine was never
19 stamped. So I wouldn't -- I don't really understand
20 that, but --
21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, that's Italy, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: They're more efficient in
24 England.
25 THE WITNESS: You see, your Honor, the two
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 46
1 entries I have are for Gatwick Airport in England.
2 THE COURT: Pardon me?
3 THE WITNESS: The two entries I have are for
4 Gatwick Airport, which is in England.
5 THE COURT: You'd better show me. I don't
6 know how to read this.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is an immigration
8 entry. I can see the entry for Gatwick.
9 THE COURT: That's England?
10 THE WITNESS: That's England. It's actually
11 southern -- south of London.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 THE WITNESS: And it's actually near the
14 Saint Hill, which is where we have a Church there.
15 And that's another one, which is July 1989.
16 And that is -- I know -- back from Italy. That's
17 where I was going to and from at the time.
18 These are other -- this is U.S. Immigration,
19 U.S. Immigration, U.S. Immigration. I mean, you can
20 go through --
21 THE COURT: That's when you came back?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: '87?
24 THE WITNESS: This is in 1987. And this is
25 Zurich. This is Charles de Gaulle Airport in France.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 47
1 This is -- certainly not England, but it looks like
2 France, "Affaires Strangeres."
3 THE REPORTER: Affaires -- I'm sorry.
4 Affaires?
5 THE WITNESS: It's a French word.
6 And this is de Gaulle Airport. And Charles
7 de Gaulle.
8 THE COURT: 1987.
9 THE WITNESS: Right. This is a 1991 visit
10 to New Zealand.
11 This is U.S. Customs Immigration for 1989.
12 This is the aeroporto, which is Italian.
13 This is like in December of 1987.
14 This is Madrid in 1989, June. In fact, I'll
15 bet that this is probably the same trip from Charles
16 de Gaulle, because that was June 1989.
17 This is U.S. Immigration, 1987.
18 This is Australia, and this is 1991. And
19 this is Australia in 1991. Again, 1991, Australia.
20 This looks like an Italian -- it has an
21 Italian stamp, but I can't be sure.
22 THE COURT: You really can't read that one.
23 THE WITNESS: No, cannot read that one.
24 This is the Netherlands in 1987.
25 THE COURT: This one here?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 48
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 THE COURT: '88, maybe? I can't tell.
3 THE WITNESS: I can't tell either.
4 Actually, it looks like 2001, but it couldn't be
5 because the passport expired. But this is --
6 "Distrito" something, so it's not an English --
7 probably it's either Italian or Spanish.
8 THE COURT: Those look like 2001, now that
9 you say that.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 THE COURT: February 17th.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, which is probably not
13 possible because my current passport was issued -- oh,
14 wait a minute. This was issued in March, 2001, so --
15 THE COURT: It could be February.
16 THE WITNESS: Could be. In fact, this may
17 be Mexico, because that's where I went in that time
18 period.
19 THE COURT: It's not in England.
20 THE WITNESS: No, it's not. And I'll show
21 you in the beginning, which -- this is when the
22 passport was officially canceled, which is March 2001.
23 And I'll go back to the beginning because I
24 didn't cover these. This is Denmark, which is 1987.
25 This is Spain, also June 1989. In fact,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 it's the 18th of June, 1989. And this is the Gatwick
2 stamp, so that's where I did go through --
3 THE COURT: Right.
4 THE WITNESS: -- through Gatwick. And I
5 think we went through these.
6 THE COURT: I think we did. There's a 1992
7 U.S. Immigration stamp. I don't know if we did that,
8 U.S. Immigration in '87, and January 20th of '99 --
9 '90, 1990, U.S. Immigration.
10 THE WITNESS: Right.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor?
13 THE COURT: You may.
14 MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Additionally, Ms. Whitfield testified about a
16 deprogramming incident with David Houghton and his family.
17 And I think we had -- somewhere in the Midwest, for the
18 sake of trying to get on with the testimony. Were you
19 involved in that attempted deprogramming incident,
20 Mr. Shaw?
21 A Yes, I was. The incident which she was
22 describing occurred in 1992, in early 1992. And it was in
23 Indianola, Iowa. It had to do with David Houghton and his
24 family, specifically his wife.
25 David Houghton and his wife and his children are
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 currently and have been some years staff at the Flag
2 Service Organization in Clearwater. As well, he is a
3 defendant in this case.
4 At the time, in 1992, my responsibility was for
5 security matters, external security matters for the Church
6 International. I worked in the Office of Special Affairs
7 International. I handled everything from attempted
8 physical assaults on staff or churches internationally, and
9 I was responsible for the safety of not only churches, but
10 our parishioners.
11 At that time, there was a situation with the Cult
12 Awareness Network, which we heard about in this hearing,
13 which was an organization that was involved in violent
14 deprogrammings and kidnappings, among other things.
15 And I was concerned with the incidents of this
16 which were occurring, primarily in the United States but
17 also overseas, not only with the Church of Scientology but
18 other religions. And we were involved in monitoring their
19 activities to protect our parishioners.
20 They were not quiet about what they were doing.
21 They were quite open about it. They published as many
22 articles as they could. They had their own conferences.
23 Q Let me ask you a question, to interrupt you. I
24 apologize. But was the Church quiet about its opposition
25 to CAN and to this deprogramming?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 A Not at all. We had a publication of our own
2 called Freedom magazine, where we exposed many of the
3 persons who were convicted or arrested for their
4 involvement in violent activities -- not solely against the
5 Church of Scientology, but other religions as well.
6 MR. FUGATE: I didn't mean to interrupt you.
7 I just wanted to indicate, Judge, that both
8 sides were --
9 THE WITNESS: We were quite open about it.
10 When they had their conferences, we had people who
11 were attending to find out what their -- what their
12 intentions were, what their plans were.
13 I had established communication lines with
14 the churches around the world so that if an incident
15 occurred or it appeared that an incident might be
16 occurring that they would alert me to that.
17 Around sometime in late 1992, I did receive
18 information, both from the Kansas City Church -- and
19 I'm not sure exactly where else -- that possibly David
20 Houghton and his wife were targeted for an attempted
21 deprogramming. And I understood that the Whitfields
22 were involved. That's Hana and Jerry Whitfield.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q Were they well known to you?
25 A They were well known to me as having been
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 52
1 involved in these activities. I had monitored several
2 incidents that were of quite a concern to the persons
3 involved because they were frankly abusive and damaging to
4 their relationships.
5 Q Did you have any communication with David
6 Houghton about this specific deprogramming incident?
7 A I did.
8 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay.
9 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
10 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay. If he wants -- he's
11 asking about what Mr. Houghton's conversation was with
12 him.
13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, for the record, in an
14 exhibit in the hearing -- it's Defendant's Exhibit
15 No. 260, which I would lift up for your attention,
16 which is Mr. Houghton's affidavit already in evidence.
17 It describes the deprogramming incident. But I'm just
18 asking the contact.
19 THE WITNESS: Actually, my first contact was
20 with the Kansas City Church to identify Mr. Houghton
21 because I had never met him before; in fact I had
22 never heard of him.
23 I contacted him on the phone. And I
24 informed him that I was concerned that he and/or his
25 wife may be the target of an attempted deprogramming.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 He was very concerned about it. He --
2 MR. DANDAR: Objection, hearsay.
3 THE COURT: I think that what -- in other
4 words, we have Mr. Houghton's affidavit, so I don't
5 know that Mr. Shaw needs to --
6 MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Did --
8 THE COURT: -- go into that.
9 MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Did you act on any request of Mr. David Houghton?
11 A I did.
12 Q And what did you do?
13 A What I did was I coordinated with the counsel for
14 the Church in Los Angeles as to what I wanted to do. I had
15 been requested for a -- well, I had -- let me put it this
16 way. Mr. Houghton requested my assistance.
17 I at that point arranged for an investigator to
18 fly to Indianola. I went there myself. I met with David
19 Houghton. I found out that quite possibly his wife at the
20 time was involved with her family and his family in trying
21 to arrange deprogramming.
22 I -- he was very upset about what was occurring.
23 He -- his wife was estranged from him at the time. And --
24 Q Estranged?
25 A Estranged.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Q I didn't understand.
2 A Which had occurred suddenly over a period of one
3 week. Later I learned that she had been held by -- her
4 family -- remember now, she's an adult; she's 30-some years
5 old. They have adult children.
6 And her house -- the keys to the house were taken
7 away and the phone lines were cut, while the Whitfields
8 spent hours giving false and salacious information --
9 MR. DANDAR: Objection. This is all
10 hearsay.
11 A -- regarding the Church.
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q Let me just direct your attention -- let me -- I
14 want to move on because I said it would be short. Let me
15 just ask you this, sir. Was a private investigator engaged
16 in this incident?
17 A Yes. When I went there, we didn't know exactly
18 what was happening and who was doing what. And I, along
19 with counsel, asked the investigator to find out whether
20 the Whitfields were in the vicinity and what was happening
21 and what they were doing. He did identify them, and he did
22 inform me that --
23 MR. DANDAR: Objection, hearsay.
24 THE COURT: You know, it isn't that big a
25 deal. We had a slew of hearsays here.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 55
1 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'm sorry.
2 THE COURT: We have Mr. Houghton's
3 affidavit, so, I mean -- we really don't need to go
4 over it again, but it's not a big deal that we have to
5 have a lot of --
6 MR. FUGATE: Believe me, Judge, I'm trying
7 to get to the point.
8 A The bottom line is very simple. The investigator
9 located them. And on the request of Mr. Houghton, he was
10 in the area of where Mr. Houghton met with the Whitfields
11 because we requested him to confront them. He did do so.
12 And ultimately the situation with his family resolved.
13 His -- his parents, who had hired the Whitfields,
14 got a refund of $5,000, the amount that was paid to them
15 for this attempt. And his marriage was salvaged, and his
16 family is doing very well today.
17 MR. FUGATE:
18 Q And they are currently on staff in Clearwater at
19 Flag?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q At the time, though, were they on staff or were
22 they public Scientologists?
23 A They were public Scientologists. He was a
24 practicing dentist in Iowa.
25 Q Now, you have now indicated to the Court that you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 56
1 worked with a private investigator in the Hana Whitfield
2 matter in Indianola. Can you tell the Court generically
3 how it is that you, Ben Shaw, worked with private
4 investigators?
5 A Generally it's in the context of litigation. And
6 in that circumstance, there is not one action which is done
7 with an investigator which is not done and cleared through
8 counsel.
9 Of course, as part of litigation, you need to
10 find out what is happening, and that is really the sum and
11 substance of that work. It's been a long-standing policy.
12 It's been my policy since I came to Clearwater in December
13 of 1996 specifically to deal with this case, that that's
14 how I operate. All the attorneys know that's how I
15 operate.
16 I have done essentially nothing with my life for
17 the last five years; I have been dealing with this case. I
18 know the security matters affecting the Church in
19 Clearwater.
20 Q Now, during the testimony, you have heard several
21 people allude to the fact that -- that credit reports and
22 phone records are illegally obtained. Can you advise the
23 Judge on your knowledge and understanding of that
24 allegation?
25 A Well, I can tell you that that doesn't occur. It
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 57
1 has not occurred by myself or any of my staff that I'm
2 aware of, and I'm usually aware of what happens in any
3 matters relating to -- anything that relates to that.
4 The only instance where a credit report may even
5 come up is in the standard, normal course of business where
6 an employment agency screens employees, and it's a common
7 practice in the world.
8 Q And with phone records -- we've seen phone
9 records that in fact were introduced in this proceeding.
10 How were those phone records obtained?
11 A The only phone records that I have obtained or
12 that have been obtained in this proceeding have been
13 through a subpoena or other legal means.
14 MR. FUGATE: I want to return Exhibit 260 to
15 the clerk, Judge --
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 MR. FUGATE: -- and check with co-counsel.
18 No more questions.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 Mr. Dandar.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Mr. Shaw, did you produce the Jesse Prince video
24 of his exiting the Church of Scientology that was requested
25 to be produced today?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 58
1 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor --
2 A Are you asking whether I brought it --
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Yes.
5 A -- today?
6 MR. FUGATE: I can answer that. It is here.
7 It is going to be introduced as an exhibit, as we said
8 yesterday, in rebuttal. And it is -- wherever it is
9 back there in the back.
10 THE COURT: And you have a copy for
11 Mr. Dandar?
12 MR. FUGATE: I don't know the --
13 THE COURT: You asked --
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I just asked for a copy to
15 review it. And as Mr. Lirot said yesterday, we don't
16 intend to use it. I mean, we need to review it first.
17 That's why we objected to it yesterday or when it was
18 attempted to be introduced because it's an obvious
19 hidden camera.
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Objection.
21 THE COURT: Well, we'll deal with that when
22 we get to that.
23 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
24 THE COURT: So the answer is it is here.
25 Apparently a copy has not been produced.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 59
1 If it is introduced, if it's going to be
2 introduced, you will have to provide him a copy.
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Mr. Shaw, have you ever used any other passports
6 other than the one --
7 THE COURT: And frankly, you should provide
8 him a copy anyway.
9 MR. FUGATE: Yes, we will.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. DANDAR: Today? I'd like to see it
12 before they play the video.
13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, we have the same thing
14 they produced. But we're going to introduce it as an
15 exhibit. It's going to be in, and we'll give him a
16 copy, assuming that the Court admits it.
17 THE COURT: Right.
18 MR. DANDAR: We request a copy, whether you
19 admit it or not. That's the point.
20 THE COURT: Well, and if I admit it, you'll
21 certainly get a copy. And if I don't admit it, I said
22 you should get a copy anyway.
23 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Have you used other passports other than the one
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 60
1 you showed Judge Schaeffer?
2 A At any time?
3 Q In the '90s.
4 A No.
5 Q Okay. And can I see your passport that's
6 expired?
7 A (Showed.)
8 Q And you have a tab where the pertinent months
9 are?
10 A No. What I tabbed was the only entries for
11 England that existed in that passport.
12 Q June 18th, '89. July 5th, '89. And you do
13 agree, Mr. Shaw, that sometimes when you visit England
14 sometimes your passport does not get stamped?
15 A Actually, I think England is one of the more
16 closely scrutinized immigrations in Europe.
17 Q So you never had that experience?
18 A Never.
19 Q Okay. Did you ever surveil Hana Whitfield ever?
20 A No. Personally, no.
21 Q Do you --
22 A But certainly I know that she has been --
23 particularly in the early '90s when they were very active
24 in deprogrammings that she was somebody who was -- that we
25 were definitely interested in. And there were occasions
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 61
1 when the investigators were definitely monitoring what she
2 was doing.
3 Q Now, I've opened up to the page that it has
4 '90 -- goes from '87, '90 to -- and there's a -- there's a
5 blank spot. And there's one I can't read. Do you know
6 which one that is that I can't read?
7 THE COURT: It looks like if you go page by
8 page that it's not necessarily in sequential order.
9 THE WITNESS: No, it's not.
10 A And -- I can't read it. It looks like -- I don't
11 know (handing back).
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Were you ever in England in the summer of '91?
14 A No.
15 Q I can't read that either, so (handing back to
16 witness).
17 Did you ever work with Mr. Oliver?
18 A No.
19 THE COURT: Who?
20 MR. DANDAR: Frank Oliver.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Did you ever work with him?
23 A No, I did not.
24 Q Did he come to Los Angeles at OSA Int and review
25 the Sally Jesse Raphael video?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 62
1 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. I'm
2 going to object to that as being outside the scope of
3 the rebuttal, and I think he's confined to what we've
4 asked on rebuttal.
5 THE COURT: Frankly, I think once you asked
6 about Frank Oliver he has a little latitude, so I'm
7 going to allow it.
8 A What was your question?
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Did you -- do you recall watching the Sally Jesse
11 Raphael video with Frank Oliver and others inside the
12 offices of the OSA or the Church of Scientology in
13 California?
14 A No, I do not. I'm not sure what offices you're
15 referring to, but I worked in a building which I'm sure
16 that Frank Oliver was never in at that time period.
17 Q Are you denying that Frank Oliver had any
18 assignments whatsoever to surveil or otherwise investigate
19 Hana and Jerry Whitfield?
20 A No. What I'm saying is that at the time period
21 that Frank Oliver claims to have been in Los Angeles he
22 worked in a building which is approximately two miles from
23 where I worked. I worked on international affairs on
24 matters completely disrelated to what he was discussing
25 when he was testifying.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 63
1 Q Did you work on the Sally Jesse Raphael show
2 where they talked -- and had people on there who were
3 former Scientologists, criticizing the Church of
4 Scientology?
5 MR. FUGATE: I object to that as being
6 outside the scope and new material.
7 THE COURT: Yes, unless that deals with
8 Mr. Oliver.
9 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to tie it together.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Did you do that?
13 A The question is confusing. You asked if I worked
14 on the show. The show was a show which aired which I saw
15 after it aired. That was my knowledge of that show. If
16 you're asking whether I had anything to do with Hana's
17 relation to the show, the answer is no.
18 Q Have you ever, in your position within the Church
19 of Scientology, seen credit reports of people who were
20 being investigated by the Church of Scientology?
21 A No.
22 Q Have you ever seen phone records of people who
23 were being investigated by the Church of Scientology?
24 A As I mentioned earlier, the phone records which
25 have been obtained which I've been involved with were done
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 64
1 through -- either through subpoena or other legal means.
2 Q Without a subpoena, without legal means, have you
3 seen phone records?
4 A I've seen phone records many times, but I'm
5 telling you that those that I've seen were either obtained
6 through subpoena or other legal means.
7 Q Now, you said that your staff -- as far as you
8 know, the staff would not have illegally obtained credit
9 reports. Isn't it true that your office retains
10 independent private investigators who are not part of your
11 staff?
12 A Investigators who are hired have essentially two
13 different functions.
14 One is litigation support -- which is any matters
15 you would be concerned about or would be involved with --
16 are hired through counsel.
17 There are instances where licensed private
18 investigators have been hired independently, which is for
19 security. By that I mean retired law enforcement officers
20 who have a background in security who I have hired and I
21 hired for the first time shortly after I came here due to
22 the extreme security concerns I had for the Church in
23 Clearwater, both for the staff and the parishioners. The
24 incidents of harassment that were occurring to our staff
25 were severe, including bottles thrown at the Hacienda
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 65
1 Gardens.
2 Q That's way beyond my question.
3 A I hired retired law enforcement for that purpose.
4 Q And Brian Raftery is one of those private
5 investigators, right?
6 A He is. He actually had a dual function. I
7 initially hired him for -- along with counsel -- for
8 litigation support. And he worked under Mr. Fugate and
9 Laura Vaughan on the initial -- at that time period, and
10 that was in 1997. And sometime subsequent to that, he was
11 made in charge of our security and interfaced with the
12 police and our staff security.
13 Q And who gave him the assignment to contact my
14 former clients, you or the attorneys?
15 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me. I
16 object to that as being invasive into the
17 attorney-client work privilege, and I would object to
18 it as work product.
19 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain that as it
20 pertains to this case, Mr. Dandar.
21 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Now, you were involved in the CAN operation that
24 Mr. Fugate asked you about, correct?
25 A The CAN operation? I don't understand.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 66
1 Q Right. You -- you or the Church of Scientology
2 sent in undercover agents to infiltrate the Cult Awareness
3 Network, correct?
4 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm going to object
5 to that again as being outside the scope of the
6 rebuttal questions that were posed to Mr. Shaw.
7 THE COURT: As to the CAN operation, to some
8 extent I'm going to give him a little latitude. I
9 don't want him to go on and on, but you asked some
10 questions about it.
11 A As I mentioned before, Mr. Dandar, the Church
12 made no secret about our concern about the operations of
13 CAN. They were engaged in illegal activities, and they
14 were engaged in activities that were a direct threat to our
15 parishioners.
16 We were very active in determining what they were
17 doing primarily through our members, who were all over the
18 place. CAN was not secret about what they were doing
19 either. They were holding public meetings at churches, at
20 city facilities. And the Church, when they were aware of
21 their activities, generally would try to find out, by
22 attending these public meetings, what was happening.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q My question was, Did you send in or do you have
25 knowledge of people going in to the Cult Awareness Network
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 67
1 undercover, not disclosing that they were members of the
2 Church of Scientology?
3 A No, I never was -- no, I never had anything to do
4 with that.
5 Q Did you know that was done?
6 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm going to object
7 to that again as being outside the scope of the
8 rebuttal, and it would call for hearsay.
9 THE COURT: I think that is -- I'll tell you
10 what I think that is. What that is is fairly common
11 knowledge because there were lawsuits about that.
12 There were lawsuits brought as to whether or not the
13 Church of Scientology members could be members of CAN.
14 So they couldn't have been too confidential, at least
15 to that aspect of it, because they were trying to
16 join.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q And letting CAN know that they were members of
19 the Church of Scientology. My question was, Isn't it true
20 that people that were sent in were members of the Church of
21 Scientology to CAN but they did not disclose that fact?
22 A I don't have any direct knowledge of that. And
23 I've seen probably what you have seen, which is Internet
24 postings that discuss some incidents like that that have
25 occurred. But I don't know for certain.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 68
1 Q Mr. -- Mr. Shaw, you do know that one of OSA's
2 undercover operatives is someone who uses the name of Laura
3 Terepin?
4 A No. I know that's the instance you're talking
5 about. I've seen about as much as you have, which is
6 Internet postings and testimony that I've heard from
7 Mr. Prince.
8 Q Her real name is Jolie Steckart?
9 A I don't know that.
10 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor --
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Don't know that person at all?
13 A No.
14 Q Never heard that name?
15 A Again, I've heard that name from the Internet.
16 Q Now, I noticed that you didn't comment about
17 Nancy Many's testimony, who was a volunteer for OSA Int and
18 went undercover for a witness in the Christofferson case,
19 Laurel Sullivan, to pretend that she was her friend and she
20 was briefed on her sexual practices while she was a witness
21 in that case for Ms. Christofferson?
22 MR. FUGATE: First of all --
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Did you have anything to do with that?
25 MR. FUGATE: First of all, object to the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 69
1 form. Mr. Dandar is testifying.
2 And secondarily, I put him on for rebuttal
3 for his specific knowledge and involvement --
4 THE COURT: You put him on. He could call
5 him for surrebuttal if he wanted to ask this. It
6 doesn't seem like it has to do with attorney-client
7 privilege. It was a witness in the case.
8 Is that what you're doing?
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
10 THE COURT: All right. So I'm going to
11 allow it.
12 A The answer is no.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Was Laurel Sullivan a witness for the plaintiff
15 against the Church of Scientology in the Christofferson
16 case?
17 A I don't know that for certain.
18 Q Do you know -- you were in OSA at the time that
19 Ms. Nancy Many went undercover to spend the weekend with
20 this woman, weren't you?
21 A I actually don't even know about that incident or
22 what time period. If you can give me a time period, I can
23 tell you what I was doing at that time.
24 Q When did you join OSA?
25 A I was in OSA in its formative stages in 1982. I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 70
1 was here in Clearwater, Florida.
2 Q And when was this Christofferson trial in Oregon?
3 A I think it was 1985, but I wasn't involved in it.
4 THE COURT: Calm down over there.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Now, Mr. Shaw --
7 THE COURT: Let him go. He's capable of
8 answering these questions.
9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I said --
10 THE COURT: Move on.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Mr. Shaw, you are not here telling this Court
13 that Hana Whitfield engaged in violent deprogramming by
14 kidnapping people and holding them against their will, are
15 you?
16 A I can't tell you that. I know that the reports
17 that I received -- specifically on the Houghton case, the
18 phone line to their house was cut and her keys taken as she
19 was being bombarded by them with false information on the
20 Church, which extremely -- upset her family extremely. I
21 don't know about all the cases they were involved in.
22 Q Was Hana Whitfield --
23 A She was certainly associated with people who had
24 been convicted, including Rick Ross --
25 Q Hana --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 71
1 A -- Joe Sinclair, and various other Cult Awareness
2 Network individuals.
3 Q Neither Hana Whitfield nor her husband have been
4 arrested and charged with any crime associated with --
5 involving violent deprogramming, as you've described it?
6 A That would be the case. The other thing I do
7 know about Ms. Whitfield is that she was involved in filing
8 a lawsuit in an attempt to take over our Church. So
9 certainly we had extreme concern about her involvement.
10 There's no secret about that.
11 Q Do you know of anyone who attempted or --
12 attempted or did in fact get Hana Whitfield's credit report
13 in January of 2002, when she was scheduled for deposition
14 in this case in February of 2002?
15 A I do not.
16 Q Do you know David Raskin?
17 A No.
18 Q Had you ever heard his name before Hana Whitfield
19 mentioned his name yesterday?
20 A No.
21 Q When Mr. Houghton met with Hana and Jerry
22 Whitfield in a restaurant, isn't it true, sir, that he was
23 wearing a microphone?
24 A I don't know for sure. He may have. I believe
25 that it was researched by the investigator and that it was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 72
1 legal in the state of Iowa.
2 David Houghton specifically requested that he
3 have the investigator in the vicinity. He -- Mr. Houghton
4 had requested that he confront the Whitfields and speak to
5 them about what they were doing to his family. He was very
6 distraught at the time because his wife had expressed a
7 desire to leave him, and he wanted to speak to them
8 personally.
9 We knew about the violent and illegal activities
10 of the deprogrammers, and we had a concern about
11 documenting everything that occurred.
12 Q And as you sit here today, sir, it's true that
13 you cannot tell this Judge that Hana Whitfield or her
14 husband engaged in any violence whatsoever with Mr. and
15 Mrs. Houghton.
16 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q What is a covert data collection within the term
20 as defined by the Church of Scientology?
21 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm going to object
22 to that as being outside the scope of the examination.
23 THE COURT: I'm not sure that that would be
24 proper surrebuttal. If it would be, I'm going to
25 allow it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 73
1 What is it? What are you talking about?
2 MR. DANDAR: Covert data collection, which
3 Mr. Oliver talked about. They're here attacking
4 Mr. Oliver's credibility.
5 THE COURT: All right. I'll allow it.
6 A Well, first of all, the words speak for
7 themselves.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Pardon me?
10 A First of all, the words speak for themselves.
11 Q Is that a term that's used in the Church of
12 Scientology's Office of Special Affairs?
13 A No.
14 Q Where is it used?
15 A I can tell you where I know it was used in the
16 past. It was in use -- it was a term used in the
17 Guardian's Office when it existed. I know of no policies
18 of the Church that uses that term, and it's not used in
19 practice and has not been in the Office of Special Affairs.
20 Q Since when? Ever?
21 A As far as I recall, yes.
22 Q Have you produced a Hat pack of the information
23 officer and the intelligence officer of the Guardian's
24 Office that I requested yesterday to be produced today?
25 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, the request for
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1 production is directly to counsel, and we responded to
2 it. And I object to that.
3 THE COURT: All right. Sustained.
4 MR. DANDAR: I don't understand that. I
5 mean --
6 THE COURT: Well, the answer is a request
7 for production is right. If they object to it, they
8 file, I have a hearing. You don't -- whether he did
9 or he didn't really is irrelevant.
10 MR. DANDAR: I haven't seen a response to
11 this, though.
12 THE COURT: Well, he said he filed one.
13 MR. FUGATE: Well, there is one. Let me
14 find it.
15 A I can answer the question. There is none.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Well, in the Church of Scientology, outside of
18 the old Guardian's Office, is the term ODC, for overt data
19 collection, used?
20 A I've seen that term used at times through the
21 years. It's not something that's in use now, but it speaks
22 for itself. It essentially means public research, like you
23 do in a library, courthouse.
24 Q And covert data collection, CDC, is that a term
25 you've seen used by the Office of Special Affairs?
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1 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered, Judge, and
2 I object.
3 THE COURT: You're objecting too much.
4 Overruled.
5 A You did ask that, and I answered that. I have
6 not seen that in use in the Office of Special Affairs. The
7 words speak for themselves. It would mean to me that it's
8 information that's collected in a means which is not easily
9 visible.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Which is not what?
12 A Visible.
13 Q Does it include illegal collections of
14 information?
15 A Again, that's -- no, it does not include illegal
16 collection of information.
17 Q Is that term used in the Hat pack for the
18 information officer and the intelligence officer at OSA?
19 A There is no such thing in OSA. What you're
20 referring to is a Guardian Office check sheet or Guardian
21 Office materials, which was disbanded in 1981.
22 Q Okay. Is the term "the ODC" or "the CDC" used at
23 all anywhere?
24 THE COURT: He's answered these questions.
25 MR. DANDAR: Well, I just want to know if it
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1 was used anywhere, in the Hat packs of anyone at OSA.
2 A I think I did answer that. CDC, no, no.
3 MR. DANDAR: I'm almost done.
4 Just give me a second, Judge.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. DANDAR: That's all I have. Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Do you mind if I ask a couple
8 questions?
9 MR. FUGATE: Oh, no.
10 THE COURT: Go ahead and finish whatever it
11 is -- are you done?
12 MR. FUGATE: No questions.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Shaw, the Office of
14 Special Affairs, would every -- I guess Flag has one.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: Does every org have an Office of
17 Special Affairs?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, it's called in the
19 Church an organization which we call our Class V
20 organization. It's called the Department of Special
21 Affairs. And the continental office and the
22 international office is called the Office of Special
23 Affairs. So it's essentially -- it's the same
24 function, but it's a different title in the Church.
25 THE COURT: Can you give me a rough idea --
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1 for example, at Flag -- how large a body? By that I'm
2 talking about how many people would be assigned to
3 this division or office.
4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. Currently in our
5 office I have probably 20 to 25 staff. Of those,
6 about five are involved in community activities,
7 community relations, which is really my primary
8 interest; and the remainder, including the many staff
9 you see here every day, work day in and day out on the
10 litigation on this case. If we did not have this
11 case, it would be much smaller, and I would be
12 devoting primary activities to community involvement,
13 community affairs. That's -- which is our first
14 function.
15 THE COURT: I do not have any idea what the
16 number is, but when Mr. Oliver was testifying, one
17 of -- and you may not have seen it either, and if you
18 haven't, why, we'll get it out for you. One of the
19 documents that was introduced, I believe he said as
20 part of his Hat pack, was sort of a check sheet that
21 he said when he was assigned or given a name that he
22 did all these things. In other words, he -- I don't
23 remember --
24 THE WITNESS: His --
25 THE COURT: His --
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1 THE WITNESS: His check sheet for his
2 course, is that what you're talking about?
3 THE COURT: No. I think it was -- he said
4 it was a check sheet for any person that he was
5 assigned.
6 THE WITNESS: Oh.
7 THE COURT: For example, if he was given the
8 name Ken Dandar --
9 THE WITNESS: Right.
10 THE COURT: -- that would be at the top.
11 THE WITNESS: Right.
12 THE COURT: And he didn't know what -- why
13 he was gathering this, but it was to be he was to do
14 A, B, C, D, E, F, G, whatever is on that sheet.
15 THE WITNESS: Right.
16 THE COURT: Do you know what that sheet is?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I recall seeing that, and
18 I've seen that before. And that is what was termed as
19 an overt data collection checklist.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Is that what Mr. Dandar
21 was talking about? Overt?
22 THE WITNESS: Overt data collection
23 checklist was something that was in use some time ago,
24 and it's not used -- that term isn't used anymore.
25 But essentially what it is, it's a research guide.
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1 If you would see the checklist, it had items
2 such as library, courthouses, licensing places. And
3 it's an aid to somebody to do research on something,
4 whether it's litigation or whether it's some other
5 matter where we need to find out what is happening in
6 the area or a person or a group.
7 THE COURT: Do you -- do your internal -- I
8 guess OSA would have sort of internal investigators.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: And then you hire outside
11 investigators, who are other investigators.
12 THE WITNESS: Right, for specialized work or
13 for professional work.
14 These days, with the electronic world the
15 way it is, almost the entirety of our research is done
16 by the computer, because you could sit down and access
17 everything from court records, newspapers, and all
18 that sort of thing. And many years ago, that would be
19 consistent with going to the newspaper morgues and
20 libraries, et cetera.
21 But I do, in the normal course of activity,
22 have somebody who is very proficient in doing that
23 sort of research, though. If something comes up, who
24 the legislator is in such and such a place or what's
25 happening, with the computer we find out. And it
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1 could be for any purpose, from public relations or
2 community affairs or litigation support.
3 THE COURT: Would the Office of Special
4 Affairs' internal investigators, whatever term
5 they're -- whatever the terminology is used for an
6 internal investigator, would it be a function to -- we
7 all know what the term "suppressive person" is --
8 THE WITNESS: Right.
9 THE COURT: -- to go to the neighbors of a
10 suppressive person and pass out what I would consider
11 untrue data to malign that person?
12 THE WITNESS: Right, I got your question,
13 and it may take me a little bit to explain it, because
14 I think the term is a little confused in the
15 proceeding.
16 A suppressive person per se within the
17 Church is a term used for somebody who is officially
18 declared a suppressive person. And that's only done
19 in the instances of somebody who had been a
20 Scientologist. And it is done very specifically, with
21 our ethics technology, to allow them a method by which
22 they can return to good standing in the Church. And
23 that's the sole reason for the declare.
24 If somebody is declared a suppressive person
25 for violation of ecclesiastical codes, serious
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1 violations of ecclesiastical codes, which is why they
2 would be declared, it gives them, through the policy
3 letter of suppressive persons issued December of
4 1965 -- which has been put into evidence in this
5 case -- Steps A to E to apply. Once done, that label
6 gets lifted.
7 That's entirely different from the term
8 "suppressive," which is a generic term for somebody
9 who does more destructive things than good things in
10 life. An example is Hitler or Osama bin Laden. Those
11 people would be considered suppressive because of the
12 destructive acts they committed.
13 And somebody can be suppressive who has
14 never had any contact or anything to do with the
15 Church at all because in life they are destructive.
16 And so I'm just differentiating between the
17 things, because Mr. Dandar certainly has never been
18 declared or never would be declared a suppressive
19 person, which is something that was implied in this
20 case. And those policies which we have do not apply
21 to him.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Minton likewise?
23 THE WITNESS: Likewise Mr. Minton.
24 Mr. Minton is who he is. And certainly from our view
25 he committed many suppressive acts. He was
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1 destructive through a period of years. He spent time
2 taunting and harassing Church members in Clearwater.
3 We spent time trying to avoid that. That -- that
4 doesn't mean he's a suppressive person per our Church
5 codes.
6 THE COURT: Let's -- let's avoid the word
7 "suppressive person."
8 THE WITNESS: Right.
9 THE COURT: Someone who would be
10 considered -- maybe "enemy" is too strong. Maybe it
11 isn't. Bob Minton, someone who is actively picketing
12 the Church, who is actively taunting the Church --
13 THE WITNESS: Right.
14 THE COURT: -- who is actively employing
15 persons to do the same --
16 THE WITNESS: Right.
17 THE COURT: -- this type of -- Bob Minton.
18 THE WITNESS: Right.
19 THE COURT: Would anyone inside the Office
20 of Special Affairs, an investigator, be assigned to go
21 to his neighbors and pass out information about him
22 that would not be true, that would be harmful?
23 THE WITNESS: No. What -- to put it in
24 context a little bit -- because, as we know, there
25 have been some pamphlets passed out about him to some
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1 of his neighbors. And to my knowledge, most of it was
2 either true or thought to be true by those who did it.
3 And -- and I know that it's not a function of the
4 Office of Special Affairs. It doesn't mean that there
5 may not be some people who are aware of what's
6 happening.
7 I know that, for example, that some of the
8 fliers which were -- which I'm aware of being passed
9 out -- and actually the only ones I'm aware of being
10 passed out in Clearwater -- had to do with this movie,
11 The Profit.
12 There were people in the Church who were
13 quite concerned about what was happening, and they
14 handed out some fliers -- it was actually two members
15 over a few days -- to people in the vicinity which had
16 information on it.
17 But you have to step back a little bit to
18 see what they were facing, which was they
19 considered -- and I considered -- a general siege of
20 the Church which began in December of '96, when the
21 media first started coming out and shortly thereafter
22 accusing these Church members of killing a woman,
23 which was so offensive to any Scientologist to even
24 consider that. And I think that this was a kind of a
25 reaction to that.
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1 And the picketing started coming up and
2 Mr. Minton coming into town. And these Church members
3 wanted to live their life and conduct their services
4 and partake in religious services.
5 And each one is an individual. Each one has
6 a different reaction to it. And some of them, at that
7 time, ignored it; and others were more active, wanted
8 to do something about it, to let these people know
9 what their feelings were.
10 Now, our response to it, particularly around
11 the time that Judge Penick was holding his hearings on
12 the injunction, is we made a policy of ignore them,
13 period.
14 And I made that a policy of my staff and our
15 parishioners, and we did everything we could to avoid
16 them when they came. The Church, when they came to
17 one entrance, we would use the other entrance.
18 Remember the video of Mr. Oliver on the side
19 of the Fort Harrison. At that time that was our main
20 entrance we were using. And when they came there, I
21 showed up and I told the staff, who are the security
22 staff there, to close down the door and use another
23 entrance. That definitely was our policy.
24 THE COURT: So your policy -- again, getting
25 back to what my question was -- if your policy was if
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1 you were visiting or seeing a neighbor or passing any
2 information out as an internal investigator, someone
3 who was a Church of Scientology member working in the
4 Office of Special Affairs would not have passed out
5 knowingly false information. You might have passed
6 out true information.
7 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Do you -- in the same
9 vein, would you have -- would it have been the policy
10 of the Office of Special Affairs to hire an outside
11 investigation -- outside investigator to deliberately
12 pass out false information about a person you
13 considered to be an enemy or whatever lighter or
14 stronger term you might want to put on it who was not
15 a member of the Church of Scientology?
16 THE WITNESS: No, it would not be a policy
17 or a practice. And the only time I'm aware -- I'm
18 aware that outside investigators have been hired has
19 either been for litigation support -- that is,
20 investigation -- or security.
21 THE COURT: Okay. The -- the collection of
22 data on an individual -- forget the security for the
23 moment. The collection of data on an individual that
24 might be perceived to be an anti-Church -- a problem
25 for the Church would be done by the Office of Special
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Affairs internally?
2 THE WITNESS: Anything that related to
3 somebody who might be considered an enemy or somebody
4 who is attacking the Church would be dealt with by my
5 office.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Let's say -- I'm talking
7 now about people perhaps that were with the Lisa
8 McPherson Trust but they were not involved in any
9 litigation --
10 THE WITNESS: Right.
11 THE COURT: -- so you would not have needed
12 any outside investigators for litigation --
13 THE WITNESS: Right.
14 THE COURT: -- or for security.
15 THE WITNESS: Right.
16 THE COURT: Let's assume that you don't need
17 them for security --
18 THE WITNESS: Hopefully.
19 THE COURT: -- for this person, but it's
20 somebody that you may have wanted to gather data on
21 because this was a person who was anti-Church --
22 THE WITNESS: Right.
23 THE COURT: -- who may have been a problem
24 with the Church.
25 THE WITNESS: Right.
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1 THE COURT: You were going to gather that.
2 Would the Office of Special Affairs and your internal
3 people be the ones who would do that?
4 THE WITNESS: Well, any -- to a major
5 extent. I mean, in the case of the Lisa McPherson
6 Trust, they were right next door to the Church. So
7 one of my first actions was to hire off-duty law
8 enforcement. And ultimately a large part of that
9 function was taken over by the Clearwater police
10 department. But our job was to prevent
11 confrontations, to prevent situations from occurring.
12 If we needed information, certainly we could
13 do it on our own through the Internet or other data
14 collection, that we needed to know who these people
15 were, to find out who they were.
16 As you know, we had a video camera on the
17 streets specifically to be able to monitor whether
18 there was going to be any situation with
19 confrontations, because prior to them moving in, our
20 staff walked right in front of their door every hour
21 to go from one building to another. When they moved
22 in, I issued a general order to avoid that.
23 But that's all things that would be pretty
24 much coordinated from my office.
25 THE COURT: I think that's really all I have
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 for now.
2 Anything else?
3 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I just have one
4 question for perspective.
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q You indicated that the -- in response to Judge
8 Schaeffer's question that there are 20 to 25 staff in OSA
9 presently at Flag?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q How many staff do you know are there at Flag
12 outside of those?
13 A There's approximately 1,300 staff.
14 Q All right.
15 A Certainly the primary function and activity of
16 the Church in Clearwater is delivery of our religious
17 services.
18 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. That's all.
19 THE COURT: 1,300, did you say?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Question?
22 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Mr. Shaw, would I be considered a suppressive --
25 MR. FUGATE: I'll answer that. Excuse me.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 A I think that's sort of an inapplicable question.
2 Whether you are or aren't is determined by your behavior.
3 As I explained to the Judge, the term "suppressive person"
4 or "Suppressive Person Declare" is used in instances of
5 former members of the Church of Scientology to give them an
6 opportunity to handle that condition.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q And you are aware, though -- maybe you're not,
9 but I'm sure you are -- that there's policies written by
10 Mr. Hubbard that defined a suppressive person without
11 mentioning anywhere whether that person has to be a former
12 member or current member of the Church of Scientology?
13 A That's entirely possible. What I was referring
14 to is the actual declaring a person a suppressive person.
15 Q I understand.
16 A Yes.
17 Q So someone who is criticizing or suing the Church
18 of Scientology definitely would be considered a
19 suppressive, wouldn't he?
20 A That's not necessarily true. I mean, in your
21 instance, you filed a $50 million lawsuit against the
22 Church and with charges which are, in my view, outrageous,
23 and -- I'm not even going to get into describing all the
24 different factors. But that's different from somebody who
25 is in an auto accident or maybe somebody that was an
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 employee of the Church and something we would deal with on
2 a routine basis.
3 Q All right. So somebody alleges the Church caused
4 the death of one of its own members would be definitely
5 something that would label the people behind that suit
6 suppressives?
7 A Mr. Dandar, not only have you accused the
8 Church --
9 THE COURT: Mr. Shaw, you need to answer the
10 question. Then you can explain all you want.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Your question again?
12 THE COURT: Would he be a suppressive?
13 THE WITNESS: Well --
14 THE COURT: Under the term as defined by
15 Mr. Hubbard and policy.
16 A Okay. I guess the way to answer that is, yes,
17 you could be. It depends on your behavior. If you take
18 actions that are destructive, lie, cheat, make allegations
19 which are false, then that is suppressive and you would be
20 suppressive.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q So therefore, pursuant to the Church policy, I
23 could be destroyed?
24 A That's false.
25 Q And you mentioned about passing out fliers. You
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1 had people pass out fliers to Jesse Prince's neighbors,
2 didn't you?
3 A No.
4 Q You know about that, though, don't you?
5 A No, I don't. I'm not even aware of what he's
6 talking about or you're talking about.
7 Q His neighborhood where he lives with his fiancee
8 and his two children.
9 A No.
10 Q Oh, I'm sorry. In Boulder, Colorado --
11 A No.
12 Q -- did you have fliers passed out there?
13 A No. First of all, he lived in Boulder, Colorado,
14 around 1980 -- '98 or something like that, and I lived
15 here.
16 Q Okay. You have no knowledge about that?
17 A No, I do not.
18 Q All right. Do you have knowledge about your
19 private investigator telling the Largo police department
20 that Mr. Prince was a dealer of cocaine?
21 THE COURT: We went through that a long time
22 ago at another hearing.
23 MR. DANDAR: All right. That's all I have.
24 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may step
25 down.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Oh, I do have a question. Is there a
2 lawsuit -- in other words, there would be lawsuits
3 that would involve Flag, who is going to be a
4 permanent member of this community, that I would
5 assume would be handled as a routine lawsuit. Your
6 car hits another car --
7 THE WITNESS: Right.
8 THE COURT: -- some lawyer is hired to
9 represent the driver of the other car --
10 THE WITNESS: Right.
11 THE COURT: -- who says that your driver was
12 negligent.
13 THE WITNESS: Right.
14 THE COURT: I take it this would be handled
15 just as a regular little lawsuit, without all the --
16 what I have seen in this case. Is that true?
17 THE WITNESS: Exactly. I mean, I would
18 certainly prefer to have such instances not occur, but
19 they do occur. That is the routine business my office
20 would handle.
21 THE COURT: A contract dispute, a real
22 estate dispute. In other words, I think that the
23 contract says X and somebody else says Y, would we
24 expect to see just a regular, routine --
25 THE WITNESS: This is --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: -- a couple motions, set the
2 matter for trial, get on to trial, get it resolved by
3 a jury or a judge, without any of the types of things
4 that we hear in this lawsuit?
5 THE WITNESS: Exactly. There are instances
6 that have occurred like that in the last couple years.
7 I hardly hear about it. The persons in my office that
8 deal with it is the insurance companies, the
9 attorneys. We deal with it as expeditiously as
10 possible. And, I mean, it's the routine activity we
11 do.
12 THE COURT: So this lawsuit that we're
13 involved in -- I say "we" are, all of us in this
14 courtroom are involved in, certainly for the last 30
15 or 40 days and for several years, longer even than me,
16 would be considered the extreme and the exception? Is
17 that fair?
18 THE WITNESS: That is more than fair. That
19 is -- is absolutely true. To tell you the truth, I
20 would prefer to be an auditor, delivering Scientology
21 services, but this is something I have to do. And
22 it's my job to do and deal with it. And it's very
23 much the extreme.
24 THE COURT: Okay. So if I get another case
25 assigned to me and it says either Joe Blow versus the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization or
2 Flag Service Organization versus Joe Blow, it would be
3 just like another routine case, assuming it's a
4 routine type of case.
5 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
6 THE COURT: This is the exception. Is that
7 true?
8 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
9 THE COURT: Well, I'm glad to hear that.
10 Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: Yep.
12 (The witness left the stand.)
13 THE COURT: Anything else?
14 MR. FUGATE: Well, we have --
15 THE COURT: Oh, for Mr. Shaw. Go ahead.
16 MR. FUGATE: Nothing for Mr. Shaw, Judge.
17 THE COURT: I need you to do something with
18 this picture.
19 MR. FUGATE: Well, actually, that was --
20 THE COURT: Is that next? I didn't want you
21 to forget it.
22 MR. FUGATE: No, I'm not going to forget it.
23 I don't know protocolwise whether you wanted me to
24 introduce that after you have looked at them. But
25 you've obviously seen them.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: I think I've seen them, but I'll
2 let you introduce the picture as an exhibit. I think
3 that it's a relevant exhibit in rebuttal.
4 As I said, I have -- obviously haven't
5 conducted any in camera inspection of those files. I
6 will. But I -- do you want to introduce this as your
7 next exhibit?
8 MR. FUGATE: I had the clerk mark --
9 It's 276?
10 THE CLERK: Yes.
11 MR. FUGATE: And so I would offer 276, which
12 is the photograph, Judge, that you hold in your hand,
13 the one I gave to Mr. Dandar.
14 MR. DANDAR: I object on the ground that I
15 searched the transcripts of this hearing and
16 Mr. Prince's testimony, and I do not find anywhere
17 where he said that the entire Wollersheim PC folders
18 were pulped.
19 THE COURT: Well, and I don't know -- and I
20 do know that there have been several affidavits of
21 Mr. Prince introduced. So what we really have to do
22 is see what all evidence of what Mr. Prince said --
23 the affidavits and the testimony and I don't know.
24 And if he didn't, then you're right; this may have
25 little bearing. If he did, then this may have some
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 bearing.
2 So it will be introduced -- what it means, I
3 don't know, but it's going to be introduced. I think
4 it's proper rebuttal.
5 Madam Clerk, here's mine. Put it on a piece
6 of paper for me, would you, and label it? I don't
7 want to put holes in the paper.
8 THE CLERK: Yes.
9 THE COURT: All right. You may call your
10 next witness.
11 MR. WEINBERG: We don't have a witness, but
12 we are going -- we have five short videos --
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- clips from the LMT that I
15 think comprise about 14 or 15 minutes. I'll introduce
16 each one. She has to fire it up first.
17 THE COURT: Did I give you all records --
18 did you take a break while I was gone?
19 MR. WEINBERG: It will take about five
20 minutes to fire this up.
21 THE COURT: Madam Court Reporter, did you
22 not take a break during that?
23 THE REPORTER: I did not leave the
24 courtroom, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right. Let's go ahead and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 take a break for the benefit of the court reporter.
2 Let's say 15 minutes.
3 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, would you like us to
4 bring these into your chambers?
5 THE COURT: I don't know. I really don't
6 want them in chambers. I think what I'll do is when
7 we're done, I'll just have everybody step outside --
8 MR. MOXON: Great.
9 THE COURT: -- and look with my court
10 reporter and clerk. And if you're the custodian, I
11 have no objection if you're present, as long as you
12 don't talk.
13 MR. MOXON: Okay.
14 (Break taken at 11:12 p.m. until 11:30 a.m.)
15 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Weinberg.
16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. My one small role
17 today.
18 MR. DANDAR: Judge, just let me -- during
19 the break, I did call Dan Leipold, the attorney for
20 Mr. Wollersheim. I told him what's going on here with
21 the PC folders allegedly of Mr. Wollersheim. He's
22 contacting Mr. Wollersheim.
23 He tells me under California law no one
24 would be allowed to see any of these PC folders unless
25 Mr. Wollersheim gave his written approval.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: All right.
2 MR. DANDAR: And I think that's the same
3 under Florida law.
4 THE COURT: Well, that is something that
5 obviously I would need to know about Florida law,
6 because, again, I don't care much about California
7 law. I'm in Florida. These files are here, and
8 that's where this is. I would need to know the
9 Florida law.
10 MR. DANDAR: Well, actually, we argued this
11 before when we requested the -- the original request
12 for PC folders with Judge Moody. And the privilege
13 statute under Chapter 90, it goes in the order of who
14 can waive priest-penitent privilege. And, of course,
15 the first one is the penitent. The last one is the --
16 THE COURT: Well, I wasn't going to read the
17 file. In other words, I wasn't interested in reading
18 any of Mr. Wollersheim's confessions or whatever in
19 the world they are. I was interested in dates, and I
20 was interested in seeing if they were
21 Mr. Wollersheim's files.
22 MR. DANDAR: But in order to be fair about
23 this, for us to be able to respond to this accusation,
24 we would have to look at those files. Mr. Prince
25 would have to look at those files.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: Well, if you have -- I would
2 agree that is Florida law, that there would be a
3 priest-penitent privilege. It's been argued by the
4 Church that it attaches to these files.
5 So in the vein, whatever you want to call
6 it, of consistency, I shouldn't be looking in them
7 without his permission. If he doesn't give it, why,
8 then I guess I shouldn't look at them, because there
9 would be no way of my looking at them that would be
10 meaningful in camera, where I would not be expected
11 perhaps to see a few words here and there. So I may
12 very well inadvertently see something that I shouldn't
13 see.
14 So I guess we'll just have to -- is he
15 trying to contact Mr. Wollersheim?
16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. And Mr. Leipold has
17 personal knowledge about this as well. And I asked
18 him to fax me a letter on it. I told him what was
19 going on. I told him there's about 4 feet of file
20 material here. And he was quite shocked about that.
21 But he's going to fax a letter over.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: What's protected, of course,
24 is the communications, not the existence of the file.
25 THE COURT: Right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 MR. LIEBERMAN: And for Mr. Dandar to talk
2 about what's fair in here, they came in here and made
3 accusations that these things were destroyed. And now
4 he's saying we can't even -- the only way to prove a
5 negative, of course, is to prove the negative. That's
6 why they're here, your Honor. The physical existence
7 of them --
8 THE COURT: I think if Mr. Wollersheim --
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Mr. Dandar is talking about
10 fairness in this situation --
11 THE COURT: I think if Mr. Wollersheim
12 claims a privilege to these 25 or 26 files, it kind of
13 speaks for itself --
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
15 THE COURT: -- 25 or 26 files that must have
16 his data that he doesn't want me to look at it.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Precisely.
18 THE COURT: But I think he has that right,
19 because I couldn't tell you what I might have to do to
20 do an effective in camera to know that they are indeed
21 Mr. Wollersheim's files. I am just to look. I
22 wouldn't want to read. I'm not interested in knowing
23 about Mr. Wollersheim or his life, but I might
24 inadvertently see something in looking through that he
25 might not want me to see.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 101
1 So I think what I'll do -- I really hadn't
2 planned to look at them until after lunch anyway. So
3 by then perhaps we'll have heard from him.
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. And in fact, when we --
5 if we need to argue this, you can see --
6 THE COURT: You don't need to participate
7 with me in an in camera. That is the absolute truth.
8 Neither do they. In other words, I'm not interested
9 in either side participating in any in camera. It is
10 not as if I'm going to sit here with one side and say
11 what is this, what is that, and the other side doesn't
12 get to hear.
13 MR. DANDAR: I would just like the
14 defendants to produce to you the testimony that
15 they're relying on, that Ms. Yingling, I believe,
16 misquoted of Mr. Prince saying that he was responsible
17 for having the entire Wollersheim PC folders
18 destroyed.
19 I've looked at his affidavit that they
20 introduced. I looked at the testimony of this
21 hearing. I can't see it.
22 He admits that parts of Mr. Wollersheim's PC
23 folders were produced after they were culled to remove
24 damaging information.
25 So I just -- I think they should do that as
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 102
1 a predicate.
2 THE COURT: Well, I think they might. As
3 long as it was -- I think what they've done, they say
4 it's theirs to waive. That's what the testimony is.
5 I don't remember. Sometimes I remember these things;
6 sometimes I don't. I just don't remember specifically
7 enough to say which side is right here.
8 So I don't want to do this another day.
9 They're here. I either want to look at them today or
10 I'm not going to look at them.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Here is what Mr. Prince said.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. WEINBERG: In a short period of time --
14 I mean, this isn't all that he said. But in his
15 declaration of June 30th, 1999, in the Wollersheim
16 case, which we marked yesterday as some exhibit, on
17 page 7, paragraph 15 and 16 -- and I'll read this into
18 the record:
19 "Later I was informed that a second court
20 order was issued to produce Mr. Wollersheim's entire
21 file. Faced with the prospect of having to produce
22 the entire file, David Miscavige gave orders that the
23 entire file simply be destroyed by being pulped."
24 That's paragraph 15.
25 Paragraph 16: "Pursuant to Mr. Miscavige's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 orders, I ordered Rick Aznaran to take
2 Mr. Wollersheim's PC files to the recycling plant in
3 Riverside to be pulped. Several hours after I gave
4 the order to have Mr. Wollersheim's PC files
5 destroyed, Mr. Aznaran returned and confirmed that the
6 records had been pulped and even showed me a small
7 bottle of pulped material, saying, 'Here's what's
8 left.'"
9 Seventeen: "The material that David
10 Miscavige ordered destroyed and which Rick Aznaran had
11 pulped was the same material that the Court had
12 ordered produced in Mr. Wollersheim's Los Angeles case
13 against CSC."
14 How could it be any clearer than that?
15 MR. DANDAR: What he's reading from is
16 Mr. Prince testifying after they produced culled
17 portions of these PC folders to the Court, that
18 Mr. Wollersheim complained he wanted the rest of them,
19 and that the rest of them -- whatever they culled out,
20 that's the part that was destroyed.
21 And I have the testimony of Mr. Prince at
22 this hearing talking about they produced some but not
23 all. So this apparently may be, without
24 Mr. Wollersheim and Mr. Leipold telling me --
25 THE COURT: I don't want to hear any more.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 104
1 MR. DANDAR: All right.
2 THE COURT: There's been a request to do an
3 in camera hearing. What has been produced has been
4 produced. If Mr. Wollersheim doesn't want me to do
5 that, if you don't want me to do that, I won't do it.
6 As I said, I can see what I see. That would
7 not necessarily tell me that those were all of his
8 files. An in camera hearing would tell me something.
9 If you don't want it done, I won't do it. It's up to
10 you.
11 MR. DANDAR: It's up to Mr. Wollersheim.
12 THE COURT: Up to Mr. Wollersheim.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, we have five
14 short clips, totaling about 13 or 14 minutes, 14 or 15
15 minutes.
16 The first clip -- these were from the LMT
17 tapes --
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. WEINBERG: -- that were turned over.
20 And the first clip on June 4th and yesterday -- on
21 June 4th, when Mr. Dandar testified -- and I think
22 again yesterday -- there was testimony about Dell
23 Liebreich being hesitant or not particularly
24 enthusiastic about the LMT. And this is a clip from
25 January 5th, 2000, which is the opening -- the day --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 the opening day or the day before the opening of the
2 LMT.
3 This clip produced by the LMT shows the
4 first phone call made from the LMT when they moved
5 into their new premises by the Church. It was to Dell
6 Liebreich, the plaintiff. Mr. Minton is on the phone
7 with Ms. Liebreich. And it is clear from the
8 conversation that she was very supportive of the LMT,
9 asked Mr. Minton whether there's going to be any media
10 coverage of the event, the opening, and wishes she was
11 there with them.
12 And in the room, you'll see Jesse Prince;
13 Peter Alexander; Patricia Greenway; Ray Emmons,
14 Mr. Dandar's investigator; and Stacy Brooks, along
15 with Mr. Minton.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 MR. WEINBERG: This is about four minutes.
18 (The tape dated January 5, 2000, was played
19 as follows.)
20 MR. MINTON: Now, this is the same toast I
21 did before. They missed it, so we're going to do it
22 again.
23 I just wanted to thank everybody who is here
24 for making this all possible. Without -- without
25 everybody sitting here in this room, this wouldn't
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 106
1 have happened, and I can't thank you enough.
2 So cheers to the success of the Lisa
3 McPherson Trust.
4 MS. GREENWAY: Cheers. Here, here.
5 Clinking plastic.
6 MR. MINTON: Clinking plastic. Yes, I'm
7 going to get Patricia, Grady. Okay. Cheers.
8 MR. PRINCE: Let's do that again.
9 MS. GREENWAY: To the Lisa McPherson Trust.
10 MS. BROOKS: It's happened. It's
11 incredible.
12 MR. MINTON: Well, you know who we should
13 call? Dell.
14 MS. BROOKS: Yes, we should. You're
15 absolutely right. And we can call her on our phone.
16 MR. MINTON: No, no, no.
17 MS. BROOKS: The phone rings. The phone
18 works, yes.
19 MR. MINTON: Oh, yes, let's make the first
20 call to her. Let me go.
21 MS. BROOKS: Don't you think she would want
22 to be part of the party?
23 MR. MINTON: She will be. She'll be part of
24 it.
25 Hello, Dell? Hi. It's Bob Minton. How are
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 you?
2 Well, that's great. Listen, you'll never
3 believe where I am. I am in -- excuse me -- I am in
4 the Lisa McPherson Trust building, which we closed on
5 this afternoon. And this is the first phone call made
6 on the office phones.
7 I wanted to tell you that the whole gang is
8 here. You know, we're just down here, and we're so
9 happy that this actually happened. Yesterday and even
10 this morning the Scientologists were offering more
11 than double the price of what we were paying for this
12 building in order to try to keep us out.
13 And in any case, we're here. And, you know,
14 we're going to make our presence felt intensively here
15 in this community. And I wanted you to be the first
16 to know that this has happened. And tomorrow morning,
17 we're going to actually open the doors of the Lisa
18 McPherson Trust here in Clearwater.
19 And --
20 Excuse me?
21 Well, Tom Tobin was here this afternoon. We
22 had a long interview with Tom this afternoon, and so
23 there will be something in the paper tomorrow morning
24 for sure. And --
25 Well, you know, you are here, because, you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 108
1 know, when I said to everybody in the conference room
2 when we were sitting around -- I said, "Look, the
3 first person we're going to call about this is Dell."
4 And I want you to be sure and tell Lee and
5 Ann that this has happened. And, you know -- you
6 know, we've got a phone number for you for the Lisa
7 McPherson Trust, which we'll start answering tomorrow
8 morning, which I don't know off the top of my head.
9 MS. BROOKS: I do.
10 MR. MINTON: Stacy knows. She's here. And
11 I'll put her on the phone to say hi to you. And then
12 there are a few other people who would like to say hi
13 as well.
14 The first call from the Lisa McPherson Trust
15 office was to Dell Liebreich. And the first call into
16 the Lisa McPherson Trust offices was Dell Liebreich.
17 MR. PRINCE: Oh, really?
18 MR. MINTON: Yes. We gave her the number,
19 and she called us back.
20 (End of playback.)
21 MR. DANDAR: Object. There's not one word
22 from Dell Liebreich on that videotape.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 MR. WEINBERG: The second video is from the
25 Lisa McPherson Trust video that's dated, your Honor,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 109
1 May 3rd, 1999.
2 Now, much has been said in the course of
3 this hearing about the alleged harassment by the
4 Church of Mr. Minton and others. The difficulty in
5 responding to these allegations is that they are --
6 oftentimes there are no specifics or details by which
7 they can be refuted.
8 What this clip shows is an example, we
9 believe, of the paranoia at least felt by Mr. Minton
10 about the Church. And you'll see in this video a good
11 example of unconfirmed accusations about the Church
12 following people and having P.I.s, or private
13 investigators, harass them.
14 What you are going to see is Mr. Minton
15 inside the LMT, walking outside the LMT with his video
16 camera and confronting a man sitting in a vehicle who
17 Mr. Minton believes is a private investigator, falsely
18 accuses him as a private investigator working for
19 Scientology, and then, you know, learns that he's
20 wrong.
21 (The May 3, 1999, Lisa McPherson Trust tape
22 was played as follows.)
23 MS. BROOKS: Hey, Mark.
24 MR. BUNKER: Yes'm. Hi.
25 MS. BROOKS: Can you come over here with the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 110
1 camera?
2 MR. BUNKER: With the camera? Sure. What's
3 up?
4 MS. BROOKS: Just a guy.
5 MR. BUNKER: On this side?
6 MR. MINTON: Yes.
7 MR. BUNKER: Oh, okay.
8 MR. MINTON: How are you doing there, buddy?
9 I think I've seen you before. You're one of the
10 Scientology P.I.s?
11 MALE SPEAKER: No. I work for a truck.
12 MR. MINTON: You're working for who?
13 MALE SPEAKER: A truck.
14 MR. MINTON: Your truck?
15 He's one of the -- this is David Lee. This
16 is David Lee, Stacy.
17 MALE SPEAKER: (Unintelligible.)
18 MR. MINTON: So are you. He's videotaping
19 you.
20 MALE SPEAKER: (Unintelligible.)
21 MR. MINTON: You know, I don't like
22 Scientology P.I.s following our ass all over the town.
23 That's why.
24 MALE SPEAKER: Turn it off and let me show
25 you, all right?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 111
1 MR. MINTON: All right. Turn it off for a
2 second.
3 Well, we came out here to talk to you, okay?
4 That's why we were trying to check it out, buddy.
5 MALE SPEAKER: (Unintelligible.)
6 MR. MINTON: Okay. Well, I was just talking
7 to you, that's all. Yes, I'm a shithead all right.
8 (End of tape.)
9 MR. WEINBERG: The next clip is
10 September 20th of 2000. There was a -- quite a bit of
11 testimony earlier in the case about Courage
12 Productions, which is that company that Peter
13 Alexander and Patricia Greenway had concerning The
14 Profit.
15 And the LMT -- and there was testimony that
16 those were not connected, that Courage Productions and
17 the LMT were not connected. Mr. Alexander when he
18 testified also testified that he was not a, quote,
19 anti-Scientologist.
20 And what this clip is, is when The Profit
21 was being shot Mr. Alexander got into a labor dispute
22 with the union. And the union is IATSE, I-A-T-S-E.
23 And you'll see signs that Mr. Alexander comes with,
24 and that's the International Association of Theater,
25 Stage, and Entertainment. So what happens is the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 112
1 union is picketing the movie because of some labor
2 issues that they had with Mr. Alexander.
3 And what you see is that Mr. Alexander and
4 others from the LMT -- and they identify themselves
5 from the LMT -- show up to counter picket the union,
6 accusing the union of being controlled by the Church
7 of Scientology. This goes back to the -- like the
8 last video about -- you know, the paranoia about
9 Scientology being involved in everything.
10 And Peter Alexander identifies himself in
11 the LMT, even though the movie is being picketed. And
12 this is a good example of how we're -- that the
13 Church, my client, gets blamed. And you'll see an
14 interchange of how they -- the LMT folks are accusing
15 the union people of being there because of the Church
16 of Scientology. This takes about five minutes.
17 MR. DANDAR: Objection to all this.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: I'm sorry, I have a
20 technical problem.
21 MR. DANDAR: Oops.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, while she's doing
23 this, let me address the PC thing one more time,
24 because we keep locating stuff for the record.
25 In Mr. Prince's affidavit in this case, the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 113
1 August 20th, '99, affidavit -- the one that, you know,
2 was used for the complaint -- in paragraph 21 and 22
3 of that affidavit, the August 20th in this case,
4 page 9, Mr. Prince says with regard to this issue:
5 "Later I was informed a second court order
6 was issued to produce Wollersheim's entire file.
7 Faced with the prospect of having to produce the
8 entire file, Miscavige gave orders that the entire
9 file simply be destroyed by being pulped.
10 "Pursuant to Miscavige's orders, I ordered
11 Rick Aznaran to take Wollersheim's Pre-Clear files to
12 the recycling plant in Riverside to be pulped.
13 Several hours after I gave the order to have
14 Wollersheim's Pre-Clear files destroyed, Rick Aznaran
15 returned and confirmed that the records had been
16 pulped and even showed me a small bottle of pulped
17 material. Quote: 'Here's what's left,' end quote, he
18 said."
19 So that's the affidavit in this case.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Are we ready, Stephanie?
22 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: No, I'm sorry. I don't
23 know what is wrong.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Can you do the next
25 one?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 114
1 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: Yes.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Let me introduce the
3 next one, and then we'll see what happened to this
4 one.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on.
7 The next one is a --
8 THE COURT: I'm glad there's not any of us
9 that are perfect. Up to now, she hadn't had a --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm going to blame it
11 on the eclipse.
12 THE COURT: Anyhow, our court reporter has
13 had problems. I certainly have had problems. The
14 lawyers certainly have. So, see, you're just like the
15 rest of us.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. It's a lot of stress,
17 I'll tell you.
18 The -- what this clip is, is a December 3rd,
19 2000, clip. And this is at the Clearwater police
20 department, and it is a clip of Brian Haney. If you
21 remember, Brian Haney is the gentleman that testified,
22 the lawyer from Ohio.
23 And Brian Haney is there, along with a man
24 named Grady Ward, whose name you've heard. And
25 they're down there to get some files concerning a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 115
1 prior investigation that Ray Emmons had done of the
2 Church of Scientology.
3 Now, when Mr. Haney appeared at this
4 hearing, he told the Court on June 19th, 2002,
5 page 64, lines 5 through 10 -- the question was: "Are
6 you an anti-Scientologist?"
7 Answer: "No."
8 Question: "How would you classify yourself
9 in reference to Scientology?"
10 Answer: "I've been a critic of Scientology
11 for some time, probably for five years."
12 And what you hear is Mr. Haney on this tape
13 explaining to Mr. Ward from the LMT that he's going to
14 get a lot of money, millions of dollars, in this legal
15 case that you heard about it, and he's going to use
16 it -- use it to fund anti-Scientology activities,
17 specifically to supplement Bob Minton's money.
18 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 (The tape from December 3, 1999, was played
21 as follows.)
22 MR. BUNKER: Fellows, what's going on this
23 morning?
24 MR. HANEY: We've come to get the records of
25 the Scientology investigation, post-Emmons report.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 116
1 That would be January 20th, '94, until it was closed
2 sometime in October or November of '99.
3 MR. BUNKER: Right.
4 MR. DUNCAN PIERCE: Here they are. Here are
5 the papers.
6 (Unintelligible.)
7 MR. BUNKER: Or whatever, anything that
8 might be a decent -- although you'd allow me to put
9 your (unintelligible).
10 MR. HANEY: No, I can't, not until the
11 Digital case is done, not because I'm afraid of
12 anything, but --
13 MR. BUNKER: Well, I understand.
14 MR. HANEY: -- my lawyer said not until the
15 Digital case is done, you know? Besides --
16 MR. WARD: Well, there's a large reward, a
17 penalty.
18 MR. HANEY: I was going to say, there's a
19 huge reward for that, you know, a huge reward.
20 MALE SPEAKER: (Unintelligible.)
21 MR. HANEY: Oh, yes.
22 MR. WARD: We're talking about $100 or
23 something --
24 MR. HANEY: Oh, no.
25 MR. WARD: Millions.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 117
1 MR. HANEY: Yes, like 50, 60 million
2 dollars.
3 MR. BUNKER: For what?
4 MR. HANEY: I got this -- you don't know
5 about this?
6 MR. BUNKER: No. What's that?
7 MR. HANEY: I got this stock that was
8 basically worthless from a Scientologist who had
9 defrauded me. All right? We've been arguing -- and
10 now it's in escrow. And he said I defrauded him in
11 the settlement because I told him I wouldn't be a
12 critic of Scientology anymore, which is -- see what I
13 mean, why I can't be on camera?
14 MR. WARD: Yes.
15 MR. HANEY: And it's the main thing in the
16 case, which is a big lie because Moxon jumped in at
17 the end. This stock is sitting in escrow. In the
18 year it's been sitting in escrow, the value of it has
19 gone from about a million and a half dollars, where I
20 paid a million dollars for it, to 65 million bucks.
21 And they won't give it to me because they know I can
22 just stick 2 or 5 million dollars every year into --
23 into, you know, anti-Scientology --
24 MR. WARD: You won't be spending any
25 principal.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 118
1 MR. HANEY: No, I won't spend the principal.
2 I just set it up and --
3 MR. WARD: Tax-free bonds.
4 MR. HANEY: Yes.
5 MR. WARD: The interest goes to --
6 MR. HANEY: Yes. It'll earn 6 percent
7 tax-free, 4 million bucks. And I just --
8 MR. WARD: Oh, no.
9 MR. HANEY: But it won't be tax-free if I'm
10 donating half. I'll just -- I'll put it in taxables
11 and donate half of it every year.
12 MR. WARD: Tax write-off.
13 MR. HANEY: Yes. And suddenly Bob Minton's
14 thing doubles, you know, boom.
15 MR. WARD: Right.
16 MR. HANEY: I told Bob if we find a third
17 one and a fourth one, it's like wow.
18 MR. WARD: I know. We'll take over this
19 place; we'll occupy it.
20 MR. HANEY: And the other thing is, every
21 million we got is worth at least a hundred million
22 they got.
23 MR. WARD: Oh, absolutely for them, because
24 they waste --
25 (Unintelligible.)
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 119
1 MR. HANEY: Okay. No problem. We've got
2 the time. Thanks.
3 (End of tape.)
4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't know what --
5 I did not hear whatever it was you wanted --
6 MR. WEINBERG: We have -- I should have
7 handed you up a transcript of that. We have a
8 transcript. What he -- I'll hand it up to you.
9 THE COURT: Whose tape was that, by the way?
10 MR. WEINBERG: That's Mr. Bunker's tape.
11 THE COURT: Mr. who?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Bunker, from the LMT.
13 MR. DANDAR: May I have a copy, please?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, yes.
15 MR. DANDAR: I didn't listen to that. It
16 was unintelligible.
17 THE COURT: I would agree. I did hear them
18 talking about millions, and I did hear Bob Minton's
19 name. But I -- I couldn't really see him, so it was
20 even hard for me to know who was doing the talking.
21 MR. WEINBERG: He was being quiet because it
22 was something he didn't think he should have been
23 talking about loudly.
24 We have one other short one, and we'll try
25 to fix the -- try to figure out what happened on that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 120
1 other one.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. WEINBERG: This is a short clip dated
4 December 2nd, 2000. And there's been -- there was
5 testimony -- what this shows is at the time of the
6 vigil, there were -- at that time, there were -- there
7 was a reporter outside seeking to interview Dell
8 Liebreich with regard to the case. And instead of
9 Dell Liebreich speaking, Ms. Brooks speaks on behalf
10 of Dell Liebreich. And we're offering it. It's a
11 very short clip.
12 THE COURT: What's the date again? It will
13 be on it.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I believe it is December 2nd,
15 2000.
16 (The tape dated December 2, 2000, was played
17 as follows.)
18 THE REPORTER: You can't talk because your
19 attorney told you not to?
20 MS. LIEBRICH: No. It's just that --
21 THE REPORTER: Can I ask you one more
22 question? Well, the question I have is it's -- the
23 criminal charges were dropped, and this is the first
24 time that these gatherings have taken place since the
25 criminal charges have been dropped. And a lot of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 121
1 people might say, you know, it's done. The case is
2 closed, at least the criminal case is closed. And I
3 guess I was just wondering what your thoughts were
4 about that.
5 MS. BROOKS: Hi.
6 THE REPORTER: Hi.
7 MS. BROOKS: The reason the criminal case
8 was closed is because the medical examiner changed her
9 report. There was every reason to believe that the
10 medical examiner changed her report because of
11 pressure from Scientology. It doesn't change the
12 circumstances under which Lisa died. It doesn't
13 change the fact that she needs to be remembered by
14 people with love in their hearts every year.
15 THE REPORTER: And there's still another
16 lawsuit pending, a civil one? Is that correct?
17 MS. BROOKS: That's right.
18 (End of tape.)
19 MR. DANDAR: Note for the record that
20 Ms. Liebreich would not talk to the reporter per her
21 attorney's advice.
22 THE COURT: I did note that. Okay.
23 MR. WEINBERG: We'll at lunchtime try to
24 figure out what happened to the other one.
25 Those are the videos, plus the one that
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1 we're going to -- the last one --
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. WEINBERG: -- we're going to play.
4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you say that's
5 all you have left to do?
6 MR. WEINBERG: No. That's all the videos.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. WEINBERG: We'll go to the next thing.
9 And over lunch we'll try to figure out what the glitch
10 was on that one.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I have just a few
13 additional exhibits from e-mails that have been
14 introduced.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. MOXON: We unfortunately haven't been
17 able to look through all of them, and some of them
18 haven't been produced yet. But there are several I
19 would like to produce into evidence.
20 The next exhibit I believe is 2 -- Madam
21 Court --
22 THE CLERK: 277.
23 MR. DANDAR: What's the number?
24 MR. MOXON: No. 277. It's actually --
25 No. 277 is actually a posting to the Internet. But
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1 one of the e-mails that was produced made reference to
2 this posting, and we were able to find it on the
3 Internet.
4 And it relates to a dispute between
5 Ms. Brooks and Ms. Greenway and states in part, one of
6 the highlighted sections -- actually on the second
7 page, your Honor, in the middle of the second page.
8 It states, quote:
9 "It's true that I withstood repeated attacks
10 from Scientology, but in a way that is a lot easier
11 because I know Scientology wants to destroy me. I
12 understand why. I found it much more difficult to
13 withstand this relentless attack on me by someone who
14 by all rights should be my friend and colleague."
15 We believe this corroborates the pressure
16 from this critic community, and in particular
17 Ms. Greenway, who considered it was more difficult to
18 withstand than the legal issues from the other alleged
19 harassment.
20 Marking as No. 278 another one of the
21 documents produced from LMT. This is an e-mail from
22 Stacy Brooks to Teresa Summers dated September 10th,
23 2001, and responds to Ms. Summers' apparent
24 resignation from LMT. You remember that time that --
25 the resignation in September of 2001 when LMT was
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1 breaking up?
2 THE COURT: Right.
3 MR. MOXON: And it states in the
4 highlighted --
5 THE COURT: Let me just ask you a question
6 here. I can see that it's from Stacy Brooks, but King
7 Peter is -- it says "to." That would be Peter
8 Alexander. And then it says Stacy Brooks. I'm trying
9 to see how we know that it's to Ms. Summers.
10 MR. MOXON: If you go down -- see, these are
11 fragments that came out of their computer. If you go
12 down to the top of the first page, it's the one at
13 issue.
14 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry.
15 MR. MOXON: It says to tsum166700@aol.com.
16 THE COURT: Okay. I was looking at the top.
17 MR. MOXON: Okay.
18 THE COURT: All right. I got it.
19 MR. MOXON: And if you look at the second
20 page that I've given you, the highlighted part
21 states -- again, this is in response to some kind of
22 assertions from Ms. Summers:
23 "I think you're missing the whole picture on
24 funds that I've repaid to Bob from the LMT."
25 And then it continues:
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1 "Even after the partial repayment, he still
2 has put up nearly a half million dollars out of his
3 own pocket with no hope of profit, and that doesn't
4 count the money he loaned to Dell for the wrongful
5 death case."
6 Our point of this, of course, is that
7 Ms. Brooks corroborates in September of 2001 that the
8 money from Mr. Minton was a loan to Dell Liebreich,
9 not, as Mr. Dandar and the plaintiff has asserted, six
10 months later after meeting with the Church.
11 MR. DANDAR: I would object to that because,
12 number one, she's not here for me to cross-examine her
13 on this, and this apparently is just rank hearsay.
14 THE COURT: I think that the -- we have
15 testimony from these people, so I'm going to allow it
16 in.
17 But, you know, granted -- like I told you
18 all, an affidavit or an e-mail or somebody that can't
19 be questioned, you know, it stands for what it stands
20 for. But I will certainly note that you didn't
21 cross-examine her on it. But she did testify about
22 this.
23 MR. MOXON: Yes.
24 No. 279 is -- this is another e-mail from --
25 this one is Patricia Greenway to Mr. Minton dated
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1 January 31st, 2001, on several subjects. In one place
2 she notes that she's been working with Teresa Summers,
3 quote, "to get IDs on certain Scientologists." And
4 she was apparently helping a man or allegedly helping
5 a man in a custody battle prove to his wife that this
6 man was a Scientologist.
7 But she notes also in discussing the movie
8 The Profit -- and asserting to Mr. Minton that the
9 movie will be profitable. It says, quote:
10 "I also want it to be a major weapon, a near
11 arsenal, of fighting the cult. By making this film a
12 success, those two tasks will be accomplished," end of
13 quote.
14 We believe this corroborates Mr. Minton's
15 testimony that The Profit was to harm Scientology and
16 refutes Mr. Alexander's testimony that it wasn't even
17 about Scientology.
18 MR. DANDAR: Well, as long as we get
19 testimony from somebody that "the cult" is
20 Scientology. We don't know who she's talking about.
21 THE COURT: Well, if that's an objection,
22 it's overruled.
23 What number was that?
24 MR. MOXON: That was 279, your Honor.
25 This is 280 (handing).
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1 I've marked as No. 280 an e-mail from Mark
2 Bunker to Stacy Brooks dated June 25th, 2001, in which
3 Mr. Bunker quotes to a response from a posting to
4 Patricia Greenway, essentially trashing Ms. Brooks and
5 Mr. Minton and leading to the upset by Mr. Minton over
6 Ms. Greenway's postings to the Internet, as Mr. Minton
7 testified about in these hearings.
8 It also notes that Mr. Dandar and Mr. Emmons
9 were, quote, "kicked out of the LMT." Whether or not
10 they were kicked out certainly shows that they were
11 involved in LMT and they were there.
12 THE COURT: There was another -- this was
13 one of the ones that I reviewed. And there was this,
14 and then there was another document that I gave to you
15 all that -- this one wasn't real clear, but it was
16 somebody going through all of the comments and
17 responding to them. So -- in many of them, as I
18 recall, they were trying to explain why what she was
19 saying wasn't even accurate.
20 MR. MOXON: Yes.
21 THE COURT: So I don't know -- I happen to
22 know that there's a lot of dispute over the accuracy
23 of any of this. So --
24 MR. MOXON: I completely --
25 THE COURT: -- please understand that I know
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1 that there's -- I don't know that I believe anything
2 in here.
3 MR. MOXON: Okay.
4 THE COURT: Mostly because, as I said, a
5 person who was recalling that she had said this --
6 there was another document, where somebody went
7 through it line by line almost and started saying:
8 Well, this is not true because of such and such and
9 this is not true.
10 I don't know which is true, but --
11 MR. MOXON: Well, I don't either, your
12 Honor. I'm not putting it in to say these assertions
13 are accurate.
14 THE COURT: And I don't remember what was
15 said about Ken Dandar and Ray Emmons being kicked out
16 of LMT, but there was an explanation for that.
17 MR. DANDAR: And this isn't from any of the
18 witnesses. I don't even know who it's from.
19 MR. MOXON: Well, it's an e-mail from Mark
20 Bunker to Stacy Brooks.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. DANDAR: Where does it say that?
23 THE COURT: There's -- there's -- if you
24 will -- if you ever care to get these documents, you
25 would find that there is a response to this from
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1 somebody -- Mark Bunker, I think -- where Mark Bunker
2 goes through whoever it is that -- whoever it is that
3 revealed this, which is all they could remember about
4 what Patricia Greenway had said. Mark Bunker writes
5 back -- I believe it's Mark Bunker -- and responds and
6 explains what each and every one of these things is
7 about and whether or not it's true or not true or some
8 comment about it or what have you.
9 So if you're interested, why, you can read
10 it. I don't remember.
11 MR. DANDAR: I'm not interested.
12 MR. MOXON: And I'm not putting this in for
13 the truth of what is stated --
14 THE COURT: Right.
15 MR. MOXON: -- in a person's e-mails, but
16 only that there was this --
17 THE COURT: I know -- I guess what I'm
18 saying is I don't want you all to think that I think
19 this means that Ken and Ray -- Ken Dandar and Ray
20 Emmons were somehow or another a part of LMT and
21 were -- I can't remember what that was, but, I mean,
22 almost everything in here was sort of refuted, like it
23 was just all a bunch of hooey.
24 MR. MOXON: Okay.
25 THE COURT: I just happened to know that
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1 because I reviewed it.
2 MR. MOXON: Thank you.
3 THE COURT: But I will receive it.
4 MR. MOXON: Thank you, your Honor.
5 Marking as No. 281 another e-mail produced
6 from the LMT materials. This is from LMT, an employee
7 or contractor of Patrick Jost, dated July 24th, 2001,
8 to Teresa Summers regarding sending letters to
9 licensing agencies, schools, and insurance carriers
10 about Scientology.
11 And he says, in part, quote:
12 "I really think that it won't take much to
13 get a couple of the licensing agencies and schools to
14 look into WISE. If we work with them, just as
15 Scientology always manages to work with prosecutors
16 when they come after us, we can make something
17 happen," end of quote.
18 And WISE, your Honor, stands for -- it's an
19 acronym for the World Institute of Scientology
20 Enterprises. It's part of the Scientology
21 ecclesiastical structure. It deals with ethical
22 business practices in and through the Scientology
23 community.
24 And Mr. Jost refers to himself as a project
25 leader on whatever this enterprise is.
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1 I marked as Exhibit 282 -- this is an e-mail
2 from -- in part from Mr. Dandar to Teresa Summers
3 dated December 11th, 2000, simply asking Ms. Summers,
4 quote, "See if Kim will call me."
5 And this relates to a person who is named
6 Kim. And you'll see that on the second page I've
7 actually crossed out Kim's last name. Because of the
8 sensitivity of names of individuals, I've taken that
9 out.
10 But if you want the originals, it's in the
11 files. But I thought it best, whatever we're putting
12 here on the record, just to go ahead and cross her
13 name out. I do in fact have an original if you want
14 to see it.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. MOXON: And the attached communication
17 indicates that this is -- this is about one of the
18 Church witnesses, Marcus Quirino, and his family.
19 Marcus Quirino was one of the persons that was working
20 on the -- watching Lisa, and Marcus Quirino in fact
21 quote up a summary report after Lisa's death.
22 THE COURT: I've never heard his name.
23 MR. MOXON: He was a --
24 THE COURT: Was he a watcher?
25 MR. MOXON: He wasn't a watcher. He was
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1 someone right afterwards who collected information and
2 wrote a -- essentially a summary report.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 MR. MOXON: Teresa Summers has obviously
5 forwarded some personal information to Mr. Dandar,
6 prompting him to see if Ms. Summers could connect him
7 up with these witnesses. And she does so in a further
8 e-mail that's attached here dated December 12th, 2000,
9 saying, quote: "The attorney handling the Lisa M.
10 suit may want to talk to you. He will e-mail you."
11 MR. DANDAR: This has nothing to do with me
12 trying to contact somebody about Marcus Quirino, and
13 you should not be left with that impression. Again,
14 this is a witness who they found and thought that I
15 should talk to or she wanted to talk to me, one way or
16 the other. I don't even remember.
17 MR. MOXON: Okay. That's the point.
18 That's all we have on e-mailings for now,
19 your Honor.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. MOXON: As I say, we may have some as
22 they're produced later on by Mr. Keane.
23 THE COURT: There shouldn't be any more, I
24 don't think. I think they have all been released.
25 MR. MOXON: Well, I mean, we haven't seen
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1 them all, that's all. Even though you've authorized
2 them all, we haven't seen them all yet.
3 THE COURT: You haven't read them all.
4 MR. MOXON: That's right. There are some
5 that hadn't been produced. You remember Mr. McGowan
6 said he had to go back and look.
7 Thank you, ma'am.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, the last two
10 exhibits, 281 and 282, I'm not sure the words came out
11 of Mr. Moxon's mouth "we offer them," but we do offer
12 them.
13 THE COURT: All right. I must have them
14 misnumbered because the last number I have is 281.
15 MR. WEINBERG: It's possible.
16 You didn't offer the last two, 281 and 282?
17 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
18 THE COURT: I must have the wrong numbers on
19 them then. Is 282 attached to 281?
20 MR. MOXON: No. 282 is that last one I just
21 made reference to --
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. MOXON: -- of the Teresa Summers.
24 THE COURT: All right. Then 281 is the
25 Teresa Summers from Patrick Jost.
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1 MR. MOXON: Yes, 281 is -- that's correct.
2 281 is Patrick Jost to Teresa Summers.
3 THE COURT: Okay. I missed one somewhere.
4 280 then is this Patricia Greenway?
5 MR. MOXON: 282 is (showing).
6 THE COURT: Right. I just changed that.
7 MR. MOXON: Okay.
8 THE COURT: 281. I just missed a number
9 here. 280 is what?
10 MR. MOXON: You know, I missed one.
11 MR. DANDAR: 280 is the one that says text
12 fragments authored by BID.
13 THE COURT: I don't have that.
14 Oh, yes, I have that.
15 MR. MOXON: Yes.
16 THE COURT: The one about Patricia Greenway?
17 MR. MOXON: That's right.
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Okay. That's 280.
20 MR. MOXON: That's 280. 281 is --
21 THE COURT: There's 281 now. I'm going
22 backwards.
23 MR. MOXON: All right.
24 THE COURT: 279. Oh, okay. I think I've
25 got it now. I just misnumbered.
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1 MR. MOXON: And, I'm sorry, I left one off.
2 THE COURT: I've got them.
3 MR. MOXON: I do have one more, though.
4 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
5 MR. MOXON: The next one will be two eighty?
6 MR. DANDAR: Three.
7 MR. MOXON: Three.
8 There's 283 (handing).
9 283 is another e-mail from LMT employee
10 Patrick Jost dated July 24th, 2001, to Ms. Brooks and
11 Mr. Prince and Ms. Summers.
12 The title is, quote, "Method is Everything."
13 And this e-mail discusses plans by the LMT
14 to attack the Church's tax-exempt status from the IRS.
15 And it concerns the letters that were subsequently
16 sent from the LMT to I think all the churches in the
17 United States, demanding voluminous information from
18 the churches as a form of harassment by the LMT.
19 THE COURT: Who is Patrick Jost?
20 MR. MOXON: Patrick Jost is a man who was a
21 contractor, an employee of LMT.
22 THE COURT: He's a previous IRS agent or --
23 MR. MOXON: That's right.
24 MR. WEINBERG: And he's the one that
25 Mr. Minton or somebody said went on this Swiss thing.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
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1 THE COURT: Right. I must have thought his
2 name was spelled Y-o-s-t. But it's J-o-s-t.
3 MR. MOXON: J.
4 MR. DANDAR: It's pronounced Y.
5 THE COURT: Pronounced as Y, okay.
6 MR. MOXON: He talks in here about tracking
7 responses from the Church and getting ready to respond
8 to the Church's claims of harassment against the --
9 against the Church by the LMT. And it notes also that
10 the letters to the churches should be sent in plain
11 envelopes and not come from the LMT.
12 Jost recommends mass mailings to the
13 churches and then getting ready to make complaints to
14 the IRS when the responses to information aren't
15 forthcoming.
16 And he ends, quote: "This will be fun.
17 Just imagine the enturbulation," end quote.
18 I don't know if the Court is familiar with
19 that term "enturbulation," but it's kind of an idiom
20 in Scientology taken from the word "turbulence." It
21 means extreme upset.
22 THE COURT: Oh. Because I was not familiar
23 with that word. I mean, I'm familiar with the word
24 "turbulence."
25 MR. MOXON: That makes sense. Someone
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1 becomes mentally turbulent, I guess. So it's kind of
2 a -- I don't know, a joke, I guess, "Imagine the
3 enturbulation of Scientology when they get all these
4 letters."
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. MOXON: That's it. Thank you.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, you need to --
8 MR. MOXON: I move that into evidence, 283.
9 THE COURT: All right. I'll receive it.
10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, depending on your
11 pleasure as far as lunch goes, I have some more
12 affidavits, realizing again that you --
13 THE COURT: Well, let's go ahead and break.
14 I was going to try to do this in camera at the lunch
15 break, but I think I'll just wait. I'm going to wait
16 until you all are done.
17 MR. FUGATE: That's fine.
18 THE COURT: We'll be in recess then until
19 1:30.
20 MR. DANDAR: We would like the courtroom
21 locked. We're not going to be here for lunch.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 ____________________________________
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1 STATE OF FLORIDA
2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS
3 I, Debra S. Turner, Registered Diplomate Reporter,
4 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
5 report the foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is
6 a true record.
7 WITNESS MY HAND this 19th day of July, 2002, at
8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida.
9
10 _________________________________
Debra S. Turner, RDR
11 Court Reporter
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