CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
                Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,
                vs.                                     VOLUME 1
                                                        TESTIMONY OF BEN
                CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG              SHAW (ON REBUTTAL)
                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
                PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
                DATE:               July 18, 2002.  Morning Session
                PLACE:              Judicial Building
                                    St. Petersburg, Florida
                BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
                                    Circuit Judge
                REPORTED BY:        Debra S. Turner
                                    Deputy Official Court Reporter
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                        TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
                        ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
                                                   Page 2
            1   APPEARANCES:
            2   MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
                DANDAR & DANDAR
            3   5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
                Tampa, FL 33602
            4   Attorney for Plaintiff
                MR. KENDRICK MOXON
            6   MOXON & KOBRIN
                1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
            7   Clearwater, FL 33755
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
            9   MR. LEE FUGATE and
                MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
           10   ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
                101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
           11   Tampa, FL 33602-5147
                Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
           12   Organization
                MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
                740 Broadway at Astor Place
           15   New York, NY 10003-9518
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
           17   MS. MONIQUE E. YINGLING
           18   888 17th St. NW
                Washington, DC 2006-3939
           19   Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
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            1                  (The proceedings began at 9 a.m.)
            2                  THE COURT:  So, could this be the day,
            3        gentlemen?
            4                  MR. FUGATE:  This is it, as far as I'm
            5        concerned.
            6                  THE COURT:  Well, we'll see.  Let's hope.
            7        Hope springs eternal.
            8                  Okay.  Let's see.  Yesterday we talked about
            9        the motions that are pending that I have not ruled on,
           10        one of which is the net accumulation and one of which
           11        is a motion for summary judgment on the negligence
           12        claim.  And it is agreed that I could do those on the
           13        pleadings.
           14                  Mr. Dandar, have you responded to either of
           15        those yet?
           16                  MR. DANDAR:  No, Judge.  I believe you gave
           17        me until tomorrow to do that.
           18                  THE COURT:  Okay.  But you plan to respond
           19        by tomorrow?
           20                  MR. DANDAR:  I'm working on my fifth draft
           21        right here.
           22                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           23                  MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
           24                  THE COURT:  Now, are there any other major
           25        motions like that outstanding that you all are aware
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            1        of?
            2                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  I don't recall any, your
            3        Honor.
            4                  THE COURT:  I don't either.  Of course,
            5        there's this motion for summary judgment on Count I.
            6                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Right.  Well, of course --
            7                  THE COURT:  And you're going to respond to
            8        that --
            9                  MR. DANDAR:  Oh, yes.
           10                  THE COURT:  -- too.
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
           12                  THE COURT:  And to some extent, I suppose
           13        that will be addressed in the closing arguments.
           14                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
           15                  THE COURT:  There's matters that have come
           16        up here.  I'm going to allow the sworn testimony that
           17        has come up here to be included in any argument --
           18                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  I understand.
           19                  THE COURT:  -- regarding both the motion to
           20        dismiss and the motion for summary judgment.  So in
           21        other words, whatever you have attached is attached --
           22        you may refer -- well, let's see.
           23                  Yes, I guess -- I guess that would be --
           24        they're going to interrelate.
           25                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Right.
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            1                  THE COURT:  So I'll hold off on that one.
            2                  MR. DANDAR:  Do you really want attachments
            3        when you have all these binders in front of you?
            4                  THE COURT:  You know, I really don't on
            5        the -- on some things.  But I'll be honest with you.
            6        I'm not sure if I wouldn't appreciate at least some
            7        reference -- some good reference.  I mean, I'm going
            8        to take all these books my clerk has been preparing
            9        for me home.
           10                  I hope I've got everything.  You know,
           11        sometimes I take them home; I put them in my chambers.
           12        I brought a whole bunch of them back today.
           13                  I suppose what you can do is refer to the
           14        evidence number, and if I'm missing it, I could
           15        contact -- perhaps if you all would agree, I could
           16        contact either side.  If it's a plaintiff's exhibit, I
           17        would call Mr. Dandar.  If it's a defense exhibit --
           18        or just say I'm missing it, could you supply it to me.
           19                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  I assume, thought, that you
           20        want both sides, when they refer -- make a factual
           21        assertion as to what's in the record to refer
           22        specifically where in the record at least it is.
           23                  THE COURT:  I sure do.  I sure do.  And I
           24        won't object if somebody wants to attach -- I don't
           25        know, I guess it would just get too out of hand,
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            1        probably.  Yes, better not to.
            2                  But the record is huge.  So it may be, if
            3        you're referring to the record, you might want to put
            4        it in there for me so I don't have to go rooting
            5        through five or six volumes.
            6                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Absolutely.
            7                  THE COURT:  Make it easy for me, is what I'm
            8        saying.
            9                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  That's what we'll try and
           10        do.
           11                  THE COURT:  Try to make it easy.  But you're
           12        right.  If you're going to attach -- you know, refer
           13        to one of those affidavits that's 25 pages long, why,
           14        you sure don't have to attach the whole affidavit.
           15                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Right.
           16                  MR. DANDAR:  Since we're going to finish
           17        this hearing today, I need -- we need to talk about if
           18        you want a hearing on something next week.  Because if
           19        you don't, like I said yesterday, like Mr. Weinberg,
           20        since he's taking off for a week, I'd like to take my
           21        family somewhere.
           22                  THE COURT:  As far as I'm concerned -- I
           23        have senior judge coverage, but if they'll not know
           24        that I'm missing, I'm going to go home and rule on
           25        these motions, just like I would if I were hearing you
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            1        here.
            2                  MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
            3                  THE COURT:  But, you know, somebody might
            4        not think that's proper.  But to me, what's the
            5        difference if I'm sitting in here or --
            6                  MR. DANDAR:  Right.
            7                  MR. FUGATE:  Maybe we should notice them for
            8        hearing.
            9                  THE COURT:  No.  It's no "body" they would
           10        look for.  It's, "Where is she?" you know.
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  Looks like you're coming down
           12        with something.
           13                  THE COURT:  Yes.  No, I think I will be all
           14        right.  I think the Chief Judge will understand.  So
           15        I'm going to take advantage of that and try to at
           16        least get those two small matters -- not small,
           17        really, but two matters that certainly need to be
           18        resolved out of the way.
           19                  You know, at some point in time, obviously,
           20        if -- if the defendant is unsuccessful in their
           21        motion, we need a major case management conference.
           22                  I keep wondering why we can't get rid of --
           23        don't misunderstand when I say "rid of" -- but why we
           24        have to have these individual defendants' names.  It
           25        seems to me every one of them is going to -- the
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            1        allegation -- whatever it is that the allegations are
            2        against them, it seems as if they were working within
            3        the scope of the authority that they were given.  So
            4        it would seem like the jury is going to be instructed
            5        on that.  And consequently, I wonder why they have to
            6        be named individuals.
            7                  MR. DANDAR:  Judge, if there's a stipulation
            8        as to what you just said -- I said before I have no
            9        problem dismissing the individual defendants.  But I
           10        want them here when I need them to be here.
           11                  For instance, Janis Johnson, I have been
           12        told by her counsel, now works in Los Angeles.  I
           13        said, "When I need her to be here to testify, can you
           14        can guarantee she'll be here?"  And he said he would
           15        make it -- you know, make sure that would happen.
           16                  But if you put that on the record that that
           17        will happen, then I have no problem with that.
           18                  THE COURT:  Well, it seems like there's
           19        advantages to both sides to considering allowing this
           20        to happen -- several advantages.
           21                  Number one, the array of lawyers on the
           22        defendant's side is going to be so huge that, number
           23        one, it's going to be extremely cumbersome in the
           24        courtroom.  It's going to -- you know, it's just going
           25        to be massive -- massive lawyers, massive people
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            1        sitting at a table.  You know, we can do this.  We've
            2        done this before.  But it just doesn't seem necessary.
            3                  In other words, I have not yet, at least --
            4        I just don't know the case -- I know a lot more about
            5        peripheral things than I know about the case,
            6        obviously.  But it just seems as if, from the
            7        allegations that I've heard, that most of the
            8        allegations that would apply to the individual
            9        defendants were matters that occurred during their
           10        watching over, treatment of, caring for the --
           11        Ms. McPherson and at the direction of the supervisor
           12        or themselves, as the MLO officer or the dentist in
           13        charge, doctor.
           14                  So I just -- I think it would be very
           15        difficult for the Church to suggest that if they did
           16        something that it was outside the scope of sort of
           17        their employment.
           18                  So that being the case, it seems like it's
           19        not necessary for them to be here.  There's an
           20        advantage, of course, to the Church and perhaps to the
           21        plaintiff in that there are extra jury challenges,
           22        that we can set some fair number that both sides will
           23        have without it.  So if that's an advantage, we could
           24        remedy that.
           25                  The obvious need for the plaintiff would be
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            1        that the defendant would have to agree that if they
            2        would be present, physically present -- which they
            3        would be if they were named defendants, if he wanted
            4        to call them live.  And I assume that could be
            5        arranged.
            6                  So, you know, as I said, the disadvantage
            7        obviously is just a whole bunch of extra lawyers and
            8        extra people and a lot of extra questions, perhaps, to
            9        say nothing of the fact that the -- just -- it just
           10        sometimes gets overwhelming to have a lot of --
           11                  I mean, Mr. Houghton's name rarely, if ever,
           12        has come up in anything I've done.  So his lawyer
           13        would be sitting here for months to really inquire
           14        maybe half of a day.  It seems like an awful waste of
           15        time and money for a lawyer to sit, which he would
           16        have to do, presumably, if this Mr. Houghton is a
           17        named defendant.
           18                  Ms. Johnson would have, obviously, a lawyer
           19        that would have more to do.  Mr. Kartuzinski,
           20        certainly, his lawyer would have more to do.  But it
           21        just -- it just seems to me we ought to be able to
           22        work something out.
           23                  MR. DANDAR:  We're willing to do that,
           24        Judge.
           25                  THE COURT:  Okay.  So you all think about
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            1        it.
            2                  MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
            3                  THE COURT:  And that's something I think we
            4        ought to try to address.  So there may be other
            5        advantages and disadvantages I certainly am not
            6        thinking about right now.  But that's something I
            7        would like you --
            8                  But I did tell you all to please address, if
            9        there's a trial, whether there will be a trial on both
           10        the plaintiff's wrongful death and the defendants'
           11        counterclaim.
           12                  And I really tried to just catch up on my
           13        reading last night, and therefore, I didn't do much
           14        thinking.  I know I told you all I would try to tell
           15        you things that -- if I come up with a list of things,
           16        I'll just fax them to both sides.
           17                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  That would be great.
           18                  THE COURT:  You might address these things
           19        or some concern.
           20                  MR. DANDAR:  Well, we do need a case
           21        management --
           22                  THE COURT:  Well, you do.
           23                  MR. DANDAR:  -- and we do need to get these
           24        depositions scheduled.
           25                  THE COURT:  Well, that needs to be done.
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            1        But, you know, they explained some of the problems.
            2        You are aware of some of the problems.  And I assume
            3        that you all will work that out.
            4                  Perhaps some determination could be made for
            5        Judge Beach as well, because I know his schedule is
            6        such that -- he covers for other judges.  He likes to
            7        work.  And he gets frustrated if he's scheduled
            8        something to work for another judge for three weeks
            9        and then all of a sudden you all want depositions.
           10        That's a real inconvenience for him and the judge that
           11        he's, you know, agreed to sit in for.
           12                  MR. DANDAR:  And would you permit us -- if
           13        we stipulate on some depositions we may not need Judge
           14        Beach and if we stipulate to that --
           15                  THE COURT:  Yes.  Like I told you, as far as
           16        I'm concerned, that's a decision that's made by
           17        somebody else.  I think probably it's been helpful to
           18        both sides.
           19                  MR. WEINBERG:  I think it has.  And I
           20        suggested that to Mr. Dandar yesterday, that on these
           21        experts it's not --
           22                  THE COURT:  Right.
           23                  MR. WEINBERG:  -- it's not essential, I
           24        don't think.
           25                  THE COURT:  I would agree -- certainly agree
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            1        with that.
            2                  And in any event, I look forward to
            3        finishing today.
            4                  MR. WEINBERG:  So do we.
            5                  THE COURT:  So, Mr. Fugate, you may
            6        continue.
            7                  MR. FUGATE:  Good morning, your Honor.
            8                  THE COURT:  Good morning.
            9                  MR. FUGATE:  I have a motion for special
           10        appearance on behalf of Church of Scientology
           11        International.  You saw Ms. Yingling.
           12                  THE COURT:  I did.
           13                  MR. FUGATE:  This is a copy for you and a
           14        copy for Mr. Dandar.
           15                  She's here on behalf of CSI and would like
           16        to present a motion.
           17                  THE COURT:  All right.
           18                  MR. FUGATE:  Actually, she was here
           19        yesterday, but I didn't think we could squeeze that in
           20        at the end of the day based on your Honor --
           21                  THE COURT:  I think that's probably right.
           22        And besides that, it's always better to have motions
           23        heard in the morning when everybody is fresh.
           24                  Good morning.
           25                  MS. YINGLING:  Good morning, your Honor.
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            1        It's a pleasure to be here on this side, as opposed to
            2        that side, today.
            3                  I'm appearing here specially today on behalf
            4        of the Church of Scientology International to offer an
            5        in camera inspection of the upper level auditing
            6        folders of Lawrence Wollersheim.
            7                  The reason for my special appearance is that
            8        Jesse Prince has sworn in his affidavit entered in
            9        this case and testified under oath in this proceeding
           10        that under orders from David Miscavige, among others,
           11        that he destroyed all of the upper level auditing
           12        files of Lawrence Wollersheim.
           13                  This testimony was false, your Honor, and
           14        Mr. Prince knew it was false, as demonstrated by the
           15        very files which are the subject of this motion.
           16                  These, your Honor, are the upper level
           17        auditing files of Lawrence Wollersheim.  They have
           18        existed since the day they were created.  They were
           19        never destroyed.  No one in the Church ever ordered
           20        Mr. Prince to destroy those files.
           21                  Jesse Prince, your Honor, has been lying in
           22        this proceeding since the first time he opened his
           23        mouth.  And as you know, it is very, very difficult to
           24        disprove lies when witnesses are willing to fabricate
           25        evidence.  But this is one lie that the Church can
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            1        disprove.  These files exist.
            2                  They're here.  They were never destroyed.
            3        They were never pulped.  They were never reduced to
            4        scraps in a jar.
            5                  The Church of Scientology is not offering
            6        these files into evidence, and it is not asking the
            7        Court to review the content of the files.  They're
            8        just being offered for the fact that they exist and
            9        for the Church to -- for the Court, excuse me, to make
           10        an in camera review of whatever is necessary of these
           11        files to the extent you need to in order to determine
           12        the obvious fact that the files indeed are
           13        Mr. Wollersheim's files.
           14                  They're all labeled with his name.  Many of
           15        them actually have his handwriting in them, because
           16        there are solo auditing files, a procedure by which a
           17        parishioner actually self-audits.  They have his
           18        handwriting in them.
           19                  They're dated.  And as you can see, they
           20        look like they're 20 or more years old.
           21                  Mr. Prince has made a number of allegations
           22        about the destruction of these folders.  He has
           23        maligned the reputation of Church officials, and
           24        including -- and also a prominent member of the
           25        Massachusetts bar, Mr. Cooley, having said that Earle
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            1        Cooley ordered him to destroy these files.  And this
            2        testimony was false, as is most of the testimony of
            3        Mr. Prince.
            4                  Because of the privileged and confidential
            5        nature of these files, as I said, they can't be
            6        offered into evidence, but I do offer them for an
            7        in camera inspection.
            8                  And I have had a photo taken of the files so
            9        that, to the extent if there's something necessary for
           10        evidence, Mr. Fugate will offer the photograph of
           11        these files into evidence.
           12                  And attached to the motion, your Honor, is
           13        an authenticating affidavit from Mr. Neil Levin, who
           14        is the custodian of records from CSI.  And Mr. Levin
           15        sets forth in his affidavit that he personally
           16        unlocked the storage locker where these auditing files
           17        were kept, and he turned them over to my custody at my
           18        request.
           19                  THE COURT:  All right.
           20                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you, your Honor.
           21                  THE COURT:  Thank you.
           22                  MS. YINGLING:  If your Honor would like to
           23        take a look at the files now, I would be happy to
           24        accommodate that.
           25                  THE COURT:  Let me listen to Mr. Dandar, and
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            1        then let me contemplate for a minute.
            2                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you, your Honor.
            3                  THE COURT:  All right.
            4                  Mr. Dandar.
            5                  MR. DANDAR:  First, if counsel is going to
            6        get up here and call someone a liar, then I think that
            7        counsel needs to get on the stand under oath and let's
            8        talk about what personal knowledge she knows that
            9        makes her say that Mr. Prince is a liar on everything
           10        he's testified in this court.
           11                  Number two, I request that Mr. Prince be
           12        given the opportunity to review these files to see
           13        exactly what's in them, compared to what the files
           14        were like when he left the Church of Scientology.
           15                  Number three, I request the Court to permit
           16        me to bring in by -- either live or by affidavit the
           17        attorneys representing Mr. Wollersheim when this
           18        occurred and Mr. Wollersheim and Mr. Rick Aznaran, who
           19        I believe lives in Texas, to testify before you as to
           20        their personal knowledge -- not somebody who has been
           21        told what to say, but their personal knowledge as to
           22        what happened to Mr. Wollersheim's files.
           23                  THE COURT:  Well --
           24                  MR. DANDAR:  I don't see how you could
           25        possibly sit here, based upon someone who doesn't have
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            1        personal knowledge who is telling you, "Yes, these are
            2        the files of Mr. Wollersheim and not one of them were
            3        pulped" -- this attorney can't testify to that, nor do
            4        I believe that Mr. Levin could testify to that, but
            5        the individuals that I request to either come before
            6        you in person, which is probably the best avenue, or
            7        by affidavit to tell you what they recall that
            8        happened to Mr. Wollersheim's PC folders.
            9                  THE COURT:  Well, a couple things that come
           10        to my mind before I let Ms. Yingling respond.  Number
           11        one is that it's my recollection that these are
           12        confidential folders.  And therefore, I'm sure that
           13        the Church wouldn't want somebody going through those
           14        folders.
           15                  I don't know who they're confidential to.  I
           16        don't know whether Mr. Wollersheim has some ability to
           17        go through them or not.  I will hear them on that.
           18                  Certainly he ought to know, I suppose,
           19        what -- he ought to have some interest in his own
           20        file.  He would know whether they're his or not.
           21        Certainly he can identify his own handwriting and that
           22        type of thing.
           23                  I don't know if I really need to hear from
           24        anybody else.  I mean, in other words, Mr. Prince's
           25        testimony is what it is.  I suppose if we get into
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            1        that we can have 15 witnesses.  Some would say they
            2        were pulped; some would say they weren't pulped.  I
            3        don't know what that would really accomplish.
            4                  Certainly you can present affidavits.  I
            5        have no problem with that.  I have no problem with
            6        your presenting affidavits from the lawyers; I have no
            7        problem with the Church presenting affidavits.
            8        Probably that isn't going to resolve much because
            9        we're going to have differences there.
           10                  Do you have any objection to my reviewing
           11        them to see whether or not I think that there's
           12        anything in them that shows one thing or the other?
           13                  You're right.  Obviously, I -- number one, I
           14        have no interest in reading all those files.  That is
           15        an absolute given.  I wouldn't know what they said; I
           16        wouldn't know what they meant.
           17                  I would be capable, however, if somebody
           18        would tell me when Mr. Wollersheim entered the Church
           19        of Scientology and when Mr. Wollersheim left the
           20        Church of Scientology, to -- to have some ability to
           21        look to see if there seem to be -- I guess my -- my
           22        problem with -- I really wouldn't know myself what
           23        should be in them.
           24                  In other words, I've heard in this hearing
           25        things that should be in them that -- you know, I
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                                                   Page 20
            1        wouldn't know necessarily whether they were complete
            2        or not.  I would know whether or not they spanned
            3        certain dates.  That I certainly could tell.  I
            4        presume the material is dated in the file.
            5                  So there may be some advantage to my looking
            6        at them in camera.  And yet again, it may be something
            7        where it would be of very little help to me.
            8                  MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I'm amazed that the
            9        Church of Scientology has volunteered to have you
           10        review someone's Pre-Clear folders.
           11                  THE COURT:  They didn't.  They didn't ask --
           12        read the motion.  They did not request me to review
           13        the content but to look at whatever would help me to
           14        know whether or not these are his files.
           15                  MR. DANDAR:  There's no way you're going to
           16        be able to do that.  You're going to need someone who
           17        knows Scientology to review these files, like
           18        Mr. Prince.  You're going to have to have
           19        Mr. Wollersheim come and look at these to see if these
           20        are really his files or something that is created just
           21        for hearing.  And then the -- and then I'll try to get
           22        affidavits from the other people.
           23                  I'm worried about Mr. Aznaran, because I
           24        know from reading a case that he and his wife settled
           25        with Scientology and had this non-cooperation clause
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                                                   Page 21
            1        in their settlement in the case.  So I'm not going to
            2        be able, I don't think, to get the cooperation of
            3        Mr. Aznaran.
            4                  THE COURT:  Mr. Aznaran would know what?
            5        What would he --
            6                  MR. DANDAR:  Well, he's -- he's the one that
            7        Jesse Prince says -- he's the one that actually took
            8        the files and went had and them pulped.  That's the
            9        person -- he would have the most personal knowledge.
           10                  THE COURT:  That's probably true.
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  That's a problem I have.
           12                  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.
           13                  Ms. Yingling.
           14                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you, your Honor.
           15                  First of all, Mr. Prince testified both in
           16        his affidavit and in this hearing, I believe, that the
           17        entire files were pulped.  So the question of whether
           18        or not there might be pages missing or whether the
           19        files are entirely there I think is not relevant to
           20        the reason why we're asking you to take an in camera
           21        inspection, but simply to see that clearly the entire
           22        files were not pulped.
           23                  There were two sets of auditing files with
           24        respect to Mr. Wollersheim's time period as a
           25        parishioner in the Church of Scientology.  His lower
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 22
            1        level files, those files were actually produced to the
            2        Court during the Wollersheim proceeding.
            3                  And attached to the affidavit of Neil Levin
            4        there is actually an excerpt from the transcript of
            5        the court proceeding which indicates that the lower
            6        level PC files were actually turned over to the Court
            7        and that the Court took custody of them.
            8                  What Mr. Prince then testified to was that
            9        there was an order that all of the upper level files
           10        be turned over.  And rather than turn over those
           11        files, they were ordered to be destroyed by
           12        Mr. Miscavige, Mr. Rathbun, Mr. Cooley.
           13                  First of all, there was never an order by
           14        the Court in the Wollersheim trial that the
           15        auditing -- upper level auditing files be turned over.
           16                  The Court in that case, under the -- under
           17        the doctrine of the Ballard case, realized that these
           18        were confidential religious materials and should not
           19        be turned over, and consequently the Court in the
           20        Wollersheim case did not order them to be turned over.
           21                  They were not pulped.  They were not
           22        destroyed, as testified by Mr. Prince.  They have
           23        existed since that time.  They were maintained by the
           24        Church in the confidential procedures that they always
           25        maintained them in.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 23
            1                  Your Honor, I hear Mr. Dandar saying that
            2        you are not capable of determining whether or not
            3        these are actually auditing files or complete or
            4        whatever.  I'm not a Scientologist either, and I can't
            5        tell whether these auditing files are complete or not
            6        either.
            7                  But I can tell from looking at these files
            8        that they belonged to Mr. Wollersheim, that they are
            9        quite old.  And when you look through them and see the
           10        dates and the kinds of papers that are in them, they
           11        are the auditing files of Larry Wollersheim.
           12                  Based on my representation of the Church, I
           13        know enough to know what a PC folder looks like.  And,
           14        your Honor, I think based on what you've heard in this
           15        hearing that you, too, are capable of being able to
           16        determine whether or not these files are authentic.
           17        And so I would again ask that you review these files
           18        in camera to make that determination.
           19                  You are correct that, because of the
           20        Church's policy regarding confidentiality, they cannot
           21        be offered into evidence.
           22                  This was a very, very difficult decision for
           23        the Court to make to even bring these files in.
           24                  THE COURT:  The Church?
           25                  MS. YINGLING:  Oh, I'm sorry, the Church to
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 24
            1        even bring these files here.
            2                  And they are not the property of
            3        Mr. Wollersheim.  They are the property of the Church.
            4        Church policy requires that all auditing files are
            5        consistently maintained by the Church.  In fact, there
            6        is Church policy that says specifically that a
            7        parishioner may never see his own auditing files.
            8                  And in fact, you'll -- you'll see -- we need
            9        to give you all the transcript from the California
           10        proceeding, but Mr. Wollersheim didn't want to see his
           11        own files even when they were produced in that
           12        proceeding because of the Church policy that a
           13        parishioner never sees his own auditing files.
           14                  They are maintained by the Church, and they
           15        are maintained forever.  Whether an individual
           16        continues to be an active parishioner of the Church or
           17        whether an individual leaves the Church, the Church
           18        still maintains the files.  They believe that they
           19        could become useful to that individual in his next
           20        life.
           21                  THE COURT:  All right.  I'll tell you what
           22        I'm going to do.  I'm going to suggest to Mr. Dandar
           23        that if in fact you believe that there was an order by
           24        the California court to produce the upper level
           25        auditing files that you find it and produce it or have
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 25
            1        somebody out in California find it and produce that.
            2                  And then whatever it would be, it would
            3        follow that, showing that nothing was produced
            4        pursuant to that order, that they couldn't be found or
            5        they weren't -- they didn't exist or whatever.  That
            6        perhaps would be helpful.
            7                  At the Church's suggestion, I think that
            8        what I will do is maybe just take a brief look, see
            9        what, if anything, that does for me.  And so I'm going
           10        to -- I'm going to see how the hearing goes today.  If
           11        we finish up, perhaps I could just do that today while
           12        they're here.
           13                  I'm not promising that it will tell me
           14        anything, because I really -- obviously, I don't know.
           15        I've never seen an auditing file.  But as I said,
           16        surely I can -- can somebody give me two dates, when
           17        did Mr. Wollersheim enter the Church of Scientology
           18        for the purposes of beginning his auditing and when
           19        did he leave, so that there would be no more auditing
           20        files?
           21                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  I'm trying -- I did the
           22        appeal in the Wollersheim case, so I think my memory
           23        is fairly accurate, although it's been a number of
           24        years.
           25                  I believe the first time he came into any
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 26
            1        Church of Scientology was in 1968.  I believe he --
            2        the last time he was in any Church of Scientology was
            3        in 1979.  And I believe his upper level auditing
            4        spanned a period of around 1972 or 1973 to nineteen
            5        seventy- --
            6                  THE COURT:  Tell me those dates again.
            7                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  I think he first came into
            8        the Church -- into a Church of Scientology -- and I
            9        think it was in the Midwest somewhere -- in around
           10        1968.  I believe he left around 1979.  And I believe
           11        his upper level files -- his upper level auditing
           12        experiences began somewhere around 1972 or '73.  But
           13        I'm not sure of that latter date.  I know that it
           14        didn't begin until some time after he had been in,
           15        obviously.
           16                  THE COURT:  All right.
           17                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  But those are the dates the
           18        best I can remember from --
           19                  THE COURT:  At the very least, perhaps, I
           20        could determine whether or not those, just by looking,
           21        those files appear to be Mr. Wollersheim's files and
           22        whether this picture, therefore, that they're going to
           23        introduce purports to be those files.  Otherwise, we
           24        would have a picture and I wouldn't have any way of
           25        knowing whether it was even related to those files.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 27
            1                  MR. DANDAR:  Well, the picture that I saw
            2        counsel hold up -- certainly it would be better to
            3        take a picture as it sits on that table, rather than a
            4        picture that counsel held up, because that picture
            5        doesn't show the depth of the files.  It makes the
            6        files look a lot smaller than what appears on the
            7        table.
            8                  THE COURT:  Let me take a look at the
            9        pictures.
           10                  MS. YINGLING:  May I?
           11                  THE COURT:  You may.
           12                  MR. DANDAR:  Oh, I'm sorry, I looked at
           13        it -- it's a different view.  Okay.  This is fine.
           14                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           15                  MR. WEINBERG:  It's just standing.
           16                  THE COURT:  Well, as I said, at the very
           17        least, I could perhaps see whether or not by opening
           18        them up it appeared to be something that belonged to
           19        Mr. Wollersheim or Joe Doe's.  So that could be
           20        helpful.
           21                  So I will take advantage of some brief in
           22        camera.  I don't know to what extent.  I don't know
           23        and I won't suggest what that will tell me.  But it
           24        might tell me something, and for however it helps me,
           25        I appreciate the opportunity.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 28
            1                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you, your Honor.
            2                  Just two more things.  Obviously, Mr. Dandar
            3        should do his own research with respect to the
            4        question of an order in the court in California.  But
            5        I did bring an excerpt from the transcript where this
            6        was discussed and I could read it to the Court.  It's
            7        very short.
            8                  The Court said -- having to do with the
            9        production of the upper level files, the Court said:
           10                  "Well, in any event, the ground rule is the
           11        upper level materials we're not going to be concerned
           12        with because, under the Ballard case, the upper level
           13        materials of necessity present to the jury, perhaps
           14        collaterally, but certainly will present to the jury
           15        the issue of the validity of the practices, perhaps
           16        not directly but collaterally, and we are not supposed
           17        to do that."
           18                  So that was the excerpt from the transcript,
           19        which I'm happy to provide Mr. Dandar.  As I say, he
           20        should do his own research.
           21                  THE COURT:  All right.
           22                  MS. YINGLING:  The other thing, your
           23        Honor --
           24                  THE COURT:  Maybe we could both have a copy
           25        of that --
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 29
            1                  MS. YINGLING:  Certainly.
            2                  THE COURT:  -- to go along with this
            3        picture.
            4                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you, your Honor.
            5                  The other thing, I'm embarrassed to say,
            6        but -- because I had anticipated offering this motion
            7        yesterday, your Honor.  I actually have a plane to
            8        take.  And so, because these files were put in my
            9        custody, I'm going to have to figure out and speak to
           10        my client about what I should do about leaving them
           11        and see if I could turn them over to someone else's
           12        custody if your Honor can't look at them while I'm
           13        here.
           14                  THE COURT:  Okay.  What time is your plane?
           15                  MS. YINGLING:  I don't know -- I'm taking my
           16        children to Africa today on a safari, and I actually
           17        have a plane at 11:45, so . . .
           18                  THE COURT:  Okay.  Why don't you take
           19        occasion to do that now and see if somebody -- maybe
           20        Mr. Shaw could take possession of them briefly or
           21        whatever you want to do.
           22                  MR. DANDAR:  Judge, on the plaintiff's
           23        behalf, I would like to have the Court protect
           24        Mr. Aznaran and myself from talking together about
           25        this and getting his cooperation to come here because
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 30
            1        what I don't want to be -- if he agrees to come here,
            2        I want it under the Court's umbrella of immunity,
            3        litigation privilege, be able to come here and
            4        testify.
            5                  And if they don't -- if the Church of
            6        Scientology doesn't agree with that, then I don't
            7        think you should consider this at all.
            8                  THE COURT:  All right.  I don't know -- I
            9        think what he's saying is Mr. Aznaran, presumably, was
           10        the person who actually destroyed some other files --
           11        obviously not these files -- and Mr. Dandar would like
           12        him to appear and say what he did.
           13                  Apparently this is another one of those
           14        situations where there's some agreement -- I don't
           15        know what it is -- some agreement that he will not,
           16        what, cooperate unless ordered by the Court?
           17                  MR. DANDAR:  Right.  There's actually a
           18        reported case on that, and I can give you a copy of
           19        that.  I can print it out on a break.
           20                  THE COURT:  You all want to take a minute to
           21        discuss that as well?
           22                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  I'm not quite sure what
           23        we're being asked to do.
           24                  THE COURT:  Well, I know.  I can tell you
           25        exactly what you're being asked to do, is you're being
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 31
            1        asked if Mr. Wollersheim should appear pursuant to a
            2        Court order --
            3                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  You mean Mr. Aznaran?
            4                  THE COURT:  Mr. Aznaran.  What did I say?
            5                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Mr. Wollersheim.
            6                  MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. Wollersheim.
            7                  THE COURT:  Oh, Mr. Aznaran.  In other
            8        words, if I should order Mr. Aznaran to come and give
            9        testimony, that he won't be sued if there's some
           10        agreement not to do that, I think is what you're being
           11        asked.
           12                  MR. WEINBERG:  Well, we're not going to --
           13                  THE COURT:  It goes to a conversation, so I
           14        don't know if that's right or not, but --
           15                  MR. WEINBERG:  Obviously, if you order
           16        Mr. Aznaran to come, there would be no basis -- I
           17        don't know what this agreement is, but there would be
           18        no basis for him to be sued by the Church if the Court
           19        orders Mr. Aznaran to come.  So I don't think that's
           20        an issue.  It's not an issue.
           21                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           22                  MR. DANDAR:  All right.  I will try to find
           23        Mr. Aznaran and make contact and ask him to come.
           24                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           25                  MR. WEINBERG:  I think there's a difference
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 32
            1        between, you know, not being sued and -- I don't know
            2        what the status is of Mr. Aznaran.  I mean, long ago,
            3        I believe he was part of a lawsuit against the Church
            4        of Scientology.  And I have no idea what -- you know,
            5        what his status of life is, whether he has any
            6        interest whatsoever to come to Florida --
            7                  THE COURT:  I don't either, and I'm not
            8        ordering him -- in other words --
            9                  MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
           10                  THE COURT:  -- all I'm doing is if
           11        Mr. Aznaran wants to come --
           12                  MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
           13                  THE COURT:  -- then he'll have the
           14        protection of the Court by simply the Court saying --
           15                  MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
           16                  THE COURT:  -- "You're ordered to come."  I
           17        mean, I don't like to get involved with --
           18                  MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  So you're not
           19        ordering him --
           20                  THE COURT:  As I told you all before, you
           21        have agreements.
           22                  MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
           23                  THE COURT:  Those are different agreements.
           24        If I want somebody here, I don't care what your
           25        agreement says; I'm going to order him here, because I
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 33
            1        don't have that agreement.
            2                  MR. WEINBERG:  But you're not ordering him
            3        to come.  You're just saying if he comes, then --
            4                  THE COURT:  I'm not ordering him to come
            5        right now, but if he feels that he would come if I
            6        ordered him to come and that's the only basis upon
            7        which he would come, then I would order him to come.
            8                  MR. DANDAR:  All right.  I want the record
            9        clear.  Is Ms. Yingling, on behalf of the Church of
           10        Scientology, telling the Court that these are the
           11        100 percent Pre-Clear folders of Mr. Wollersheim and
           12        not one file has been destroyed or not presented to
           13        you today?
           14                  MS. YINGLING:  No, that is not what I'm
           15        representing, your Honor.  I'm representing that these
           16        are the upper level auditing files that the Church of
           17        Scientology International has maintained in the normal
           18        course of its activities.  That's not to say that -- a
           19        page that has gotten lost or perhaps even a folder
           20        that has gotten lost.
           21                  But these are the ones that the Church has
           22        maintained; and, as Mr. -- Mr. Neil Levin testifies in
           23        his affidavit, these are the ones that he found in the
           24        secure locker that he personally opened to remove
           25        these files.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 34
            1                  But, your Honor, there's been a number of
            2        years that have passed since these files were created
            3        and maintained, and I certainly can't represent that
            4        every page is still there.
            5                  But let me reiterate that it was
            6        Mr. Prince's testimony that the entire upper level
            7        auditing files were destroyed at his -- at his
            8        direction and that all that remained of them was a
            9        little pulp in a jar.
           10                  THE COURT:  And that -- frankly, I don't
           11        remember exactly what his testimony was, but I'll have
           12        a chance to review that.  And that's why I say, I
           13        honestly just can't remember exactly what he said.
           14                  I know he certainly said the files were
           15        destroyed.  But they were requested to be produced,
           16        and they were destroyed and therefore not produced.
           17        Whether they were all of the files or some of them, I
           18        just can't remember.  But I'll have that testimony at
           19        some point in time to review.
           20                  Therefore, as I said, just a quick look to
           21        see if these look like Mr. Wollersheim's files may be
           22        helpful to me.
           23                  MS. YINGLING:  If I can, your Honor, I think
           24        this is a classic case of you know it when you see it.
           25        You see these files, and you know that they are
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 35
            1        authentic upper level auditing files.
            2                  MR. DANDAR:  Could counsel put on the record
            3        how many NED, N-E-D, for OT files for Mr. Wollersheim
            4        are on the table.
            5                  THE COURT:  I don't know what --
            6                  MS. YINGLING:  Well, this one right here is
            7        an NED for OT file.
            8                  MR. DANDAR:  That's one.
            9                  MS. YINGLING:  And this one is also.  But I
           10        don't know how many.  I didn't count them myself.
           11        This one is also.  And this one is also.  And this one
           12        is also.  There are quite a few.
           13                  THE COURT:  So that was at least five --
           14                  MR. WEINBERG:  Five.
           15                  THE COURT:  -- that I would say, without
           16        looking at what's in them --
           17                  MS. YINGLING:  And I don't know if
           18        they're -- if each file is a separate file or more
           19        than one file could be encompassed in these rubber
           20        bands.  This one is rather hefty.
           21                  THE COURT:  That one looks like it's
           22        about -- I don't know what that is.  Eight inches
           23        maybe?  I'm not very good --
           24                  MS. YINGLING:  I would say at least, your
           25        Honor.  These -- yes, I would say that's 8 to 10.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 36
            1                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  (Demonstrating) Eight to
            2        ten.
            3                  MS. YINGLING:  Yes, my shoe is
            4        (demonstrating) --
            5                  THE COURT:  Yes.  So we'll say at least 8
            6        to --
            7                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  That's demonstrative
            8        evidence.
            9                  MR. DANDAR:  Could we also get counsel to
           10        give us the complete transcript, rather than one page?
           11                  THE COURT:  Well, I think that what she
           12        suggested is that maybe you should do your own
           13        research here.
           14                  MS. YINGLING:  I think that would --
           15                  THE COURT:  That's what she brought.  What
           16        I'm telling you is that if you want to produce
           17        something, then you can certainly do that and you can
           18        supplement the record.  I'm not really going to
           19        require them to do that for you.
           20                  MR. DANDAR:  All right.
           21                  MR. FUGATE:  Judge, may I make a suggestion?
           22        I'm always hesitant to do that.
           23                  THE COURT:  Yes.
           24                  MR. FUGATE:  But I have good news and good
           25        news.  I think one way that we may be able to solve
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 37
            1        this -- I don't want to predispose what you want to do
            2        in an in camera review -- but in the time that we're
            3        going to go out, if the Court gives us a few minutes
            4        to answer the questions that you've asked, I think if
            5        your bailiff and the court reporter stayed and you
            6        took an in camera look, if it is what it is when you
            7        see it -- I think you're going to be able to
            8        accomplish that.
            9                  And the good news is that after that, we
           10        have virtually one other witness, and then we have a
           11        lot of affidavits, sort of the same thing you saw
           12        before, just putting in some evidence, one thing after
           13        another.  And we will be -- and I think there's a
           14        couple of video clips, and that's it.
           15                  So we might be able to accomplish all this
           16        in the time that we're still talking about it.
           17                  THE COURT:  Okay.  You might.  But that's an
           18        awful lot of folders, and I'm not going to pretend to
           19        do an in camera in five minutes.
           20                  MR. FUGATE:  I didn't mean to suggest --
           21                  THE COURT:  Or 10 minutes, 15 minutes, or
           22        half an hour.  So I don't know that we can just take a
           23        little break here and have me just take a look at the
           24        first page and say I've done an in camera and those
           25        are all Mr. Wollersheim's files.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 38
            1                  MR. FUGATE:  It's a suggestion.
            2                  THE COURT:  One I'm not going to take.  In
            3        other words, I'm not saying I'm going to take two
            4        hours with this --
            5                  MR. FUGATE:  Right.
            6                  THE COURT:  -- but I'm going to take
            7        whatever time I think I need to know either it's of no
            8        use to me or some use.  And I have no idea how long
            9        I'm going to take.
           10                  MR. DANDAR:  Just for the record -- can I
           11        put on the record that when counsel went through these
           12        five NED for OT files, the first one is No. 25.  The
           13        next one is numbered 26.  The next one is numbered 24;
           14        then the No. 23 and No. 22, and five files of NED for
           15        OTs, which is an important distinguishment here.
           16        There are only five produced, and the top number is
           17        26.
           18                  MS. YINGLING:  The other files are numbered,
           19        I believe, 6 through 21, your Honor.
           20                  THE COURT:  You see -- you know, as I said,
           21        you're all trying to tell me something there.  I've
           22        been asked to do an in camera.  I'll take a look and
           23        I'll see whether there's anything.  So that doesn't
           24        mean a thing.
           25                  MR. DANDAR:  Right.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 39
            1                  THE COURT:  There may be 1 through 24 or 1
            2        through 26.  That's the last --
            3                  MR. DANDAR:  All right.  I'm just saying I
            4        don't -- I don't believe the Court would able to sift
            5        through and look at these files and make that
            6        determination without expert assistance.
            7                  THE COURT:  I think you're probably right,
            8        Counsel.  However, if the testimony is that all of
            9        Mr. Wollersheim's files were pulped and I determine
           10        that -- that's 8 inches.  The next one is at least a
           11        foot.  The next one is at least a foot.  And the next
           12        one is probably at least a foot.  So if that's the
           13        case, then all of Mr. Wollersheim's files were not
           14        pulped.  I don't remember what the testimony was.
           15                  But thank you, Ms. Yingling, and I'll try to
           16        give you a few minutes now to see -- what time is your
           17        plane?
           18                  MS. YINGLING:  11:45, your Honor.
           19                  THE COURT:  And that means you really need
           20        to be there -- in Tampa?  Are you flying out of Tampa?
           21                  MS. YINGLING:  Yes, your Honor.
           22                  THE COURT:  You need to be there by 10:45.
           23        That means you need to leave here by 10:15.  It's 20
           24        minutes till 10:00.  So a decision does have to be
           25        made if she can turn those over to somebody.  So if
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 40
            1        she can't, then I can't do this today.  We'll have to
            2        do it another day.  So let's just take 10 minutes and
            3        see about that.
            4                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you, your Honor.
            5                  THE COURT:  Have a nice trip.
            6                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you, your Honor.
            7                  THE BAILIFF:  All rise.  Court will be in
            8        recess for ten minutes by the courtroom clock.
            9                  (Break taken at 9:40 p.m. until 10:08 a.m.)
           10                  THE COURT:  All right.  You may be seated.
           11                  Ms. Yingling, did you have an opportunity to
           12        speak with --
           13                  MS. YINGLING:  Yes, I did, your Honor.  I
           14        did have --
           15                  THE COURT:  -- your client?
           16                  MS. YINGLING:  -- an opportunity to speak
           17        with my client.  And they have agreed I could turn the
           18        custody of the files over to Rick Moxon for purposes
           19        of keeping them until your Honor has a chance to
           20        review them in camera.
           21                  Mr. Moxon, of course, has represented CSI,
           22        does represent the Church of Scientology
           23        International, and he is also familiar with these
           24        types of files.  So I will turn them over to Mr. Moxon
           25        for the purposes of review.  And Mr. Moxon has assured
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 41
            1        me that he will take custody of them once your Honor
            2        is finished today and return them to the proper
            3        officials of the Church.
            4                  THE COURT:  All right.  Fine.
            5                  What I've kind of decided to do -- what I
            6        can do is, if we finish up, as I think you're saying
            7        maybe we will, that I can perhaps do that with my
            8        clerk and my court reporter and do a sealed --
            9                  MR. DANDAR:  Good.
           10                  THE COURT:  Anything that I would say on the
           11        record, I probably ought to do it just in camera.
           12        I'll ask the court reporter to seal it.
           13                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you.  And, your Honor,
           14        I think I did mention that there are some files in
           15        here that are known as the solo auditing files, and
           16        those do contain Mr. Wollersheim's handwriting.  And
           17        they are marked "solo" on the top, and they may be
           18        ones -- you may want to put them on as well.
           19                  THE COURT:  All right.
           20                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you very much, your
           21        Honor, for accommodating me and accommodating my
           22        schedule.
           23                  THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm glad we could do that.
           24        And you may be excused, and you may hopefully enjoy
           25        your trip out there.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 42
            1                  MS. YINGLING:  Thank you very much, your
            2        Honor.
            3                  (Ms. Yingling left the courtroom.)
            4                  THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Fugate.
            5                  MR. FUGATE:  For those who remain behind.
            6                  THE COURT:  Yes, for those of us who don't
            7        get to see the elephants and the zebras.
            8                  MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, at this time I'm
            9        prepared to call Mr. Ben Shaw.  There have been
           10        specific allegations that have been made against him.
           11                  I want to advise the Court and Mr. Dandar
           12        that we are calling him specifically in our rebuttal
           13        case to rebut the specific comments that were made.
           14        We will not waive any attorney-client or work product
           15        privilege whatsoever, consistent with the Court's
           16        rulings as to Mr. Dandar's investigators and his work
           17        product privilege.  We are going to ask for the same.
           18                  If we can now call him under those
           19        conditions, I'm ready to call him, and it will be very
           20        quick.
           21                  THE COURT:  All right.  You may.  I may have
           22        a couple of questions for Mr. Shaw; I may not.
           23                  I've already sworn you, I believe, Mr. Shaw.
           24        You understand you're under that same oath?
           25                  THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 43
            1                  THE COURT:  Is this your second witness in
            2        rebuttal?
            3                  MR. FUGATE:  Yes.  Mr. Pope.
            4                  THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, right.  You may
            5        proceed.
            6                  MR. FUGATE:  Seems like last week, but --
            7                  THE COURT:  Yes.
            8                  MR. FUGATE:  I promise you, Judge, this will
            9        go fast today.
           10                            BEN SHAW
           11   having been previously duly sworn or affirmed, testified
           12   upon rebuttal and said as follows:
           13                       DIRECT EXAMINATION
           14   BY MR. FUGATE:
           15        Q    Mr. Shaw, would you state your name again for the
           16   record.
           17        A    It's Ben Shaw.
           18        Q    And you have been sitting here during the last
           19   several weeks of testimony -- actually, throughout all of
           20   the weeks of testimony.  Is that correct?
           21        A    Yes, I have, every day.
           22        Q    And I'm going to direct your attention to Frank
           23   Oliver's testimony on Monday that in 1991, in California,
           24   he -- that is, Mr. Oliver -- met with you and you gave to
           25   him a credit report and phone records.  Can you tell the
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 44
            1   Judge, is this accurate?  Did this happen?
            2        A    No, that is not accurate.  It's false.  It never
            3   happened.  The first time that I recall ever recognizing
            4   Frank Oliver as who he is was in February of 1999 at a
            5   public hearing of the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority.
            6             He was here, I believe, prior to that for
            7   picketing in Clearwater; I didn't recognize who he was.
            8             It was at that point where I first knew who Frank
            9   Oliver was in person.
           10        Q    And on Monday -- I believe it was Monday -- this
           11   week, a Ms. Hana Whitfield testified.  And if I can direct
           12   your attention back to her testimony, I think I recall her
           13   testifying that you surveilled her at a bed and breakfast
           14   in England in 1991.  Can you tell the Judge whether or not
           15   that testimony is accurate and whether that actually
           16   happened?
           17        A    Yes, I can.  That is not true.
           18        Q    Did I ask you to go back and see if you had your
           19   passport for the year of 1991 that would cover that period
           20   of time?
           21        A    Yes, you did, in fact.  I have an expired
           22   passport from that time period.
           23        Q    And do you have it with you?
           24        A    Yes, I do.
           25        Q    Can I ask you to take it out?
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 45
            1        A    Yes.
            2        Q    And have you reviewed it?
            3        A    Yes, I did.  I looked at it during that time
            4   period.  I had done some traveling overseas.  In fact, I
            5   went through England in 1989, in June, and again in July.
            6   It was transit stops.  I went to Italy and back.
            7             I have a passport here.  I looked through the
            8   entire passport.  I found no other entries for England,
            9   only all other European countries.
           10                  MR. FUGATE:  So for the year 1991 -- I don't
           11        intend to offer your personal passport.  But I would
           12        like the Judge --
           13                  If you want to look at it, you're welcome
           14        to, or if Mr. Dandar does.  It does not reflect an
           15        entry into England in 1990 or 1991, and I believe --
           16        or '92.
           17                  THE COURT:  I've never been real sure how to
           18        read these, because I went to Italy and mine was never
           19        stamped.  So I wouldn't -- I don't really understand
           20        that, but --
           21                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Well, that's Italy, Judge.
           22                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           23                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  They're more efficient in
           24        England.
           25                  THE WITNESS:  You see, your Honor, the two
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 46
            1        entries I have are for Gatwick Airport in England.
            2                  THE COURT:  Pardon me?
            3                  THE WITNESS:  The two entries I have are for
            4        Gatwick Airport, which is in England.
            5                  THE COURT:  You'd better show me.  I don't
            6        know how to read this.
            7                  THE WITNESS:  Okay.  This is an immigration
            8        entry.  I can see the entry for Gatwick.
            9                  THE COURT:  That's England?
           10                  THE WITNESS:  That's England.  It's actually
           11        southern -- south of London.
           12                  THE COURT:  All right.
           13                  THE WITNESS:  And it's actually near the
           14        Saint Hill, which is where we have a Church there.
           15                  And that's another one, which is July 1989.
           16        And that is -- I know -- back from Italy.  That's
           17        where I was going to and from at the time.
           18                  These are other -- this is U.S. Immigration,
           19        U.S. Immigration, U.S. Immigration.  I mean, you can
           20        go through --
           21                  THE COURT:  That's when you came back?
           22                  THE WITNESS:  Yes.
           23                  THE COURT:  '87?
           24                  THE WITNESS:  This is in 1987.  And this is
           25        Zurich.  This is Charles de Gaulle Airport in France.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 47
            1        This is -- certainly not England, but it looks like
            2        France, "Affaires Strangeres."
            3                  THE REPORTER:  Affaires -- I'm sorry.
            4        Affaires?
            5                  THE WITNESS:  It's a French word.
            6                  And this is de Gaulle Airport.  And Charles
            7        de Gaulle.
            8                  THE COURT:  1987.
            9                  THE WITNESS:  Right.  This is a 1991 visit
           10        to New Zealand.
           11                  This is U.S. Customs Immigration for 1989.
           12                  This is the aeroporto, which is Italian.
           13        This is like in December of 1987.
           14                  This is Madrid in 1989, June.  In fact, I'll
           15        bet that this is probably the same trip from Charles
           16        de Gaulle, because that was June 1989.
           17                  This is U.S. Immigration, 1987.
           18                  This is Australia, and this is 1991.  And
           19        this is Australia in 1991.  Again, 1991, Australia.
           20                  This looks like an Italian -- it has an
           21        Italian stamp, but I can't be sure.
           22                  THE COURT:  You really can't read that one.
           23                  THE WITNESS:  No, cannot read that one.
           24                  This is the Netherlands in 1987.
           25                  THE COURT:  This one here?
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 48
            1                  THE WITNESS:  Yes.
            2                  THE COURT:  '88, maybe?  I can't tell.
            3                  THE WITNESS:  I can't tell either.
            4        Actually, it looks like 2001, but it couldn't be
            5        because the passport expired.  But this is --
            6        "Distrito" something, so it's not an English --
            7        probably it's either Italian or Spanish.
            8                  THE COURT:  Those look like 2001, now that
            9        you say that.
           10                  THE WITNESS:  Yes.
           11                  THE COURT:  February 17th.
           12                  THE WITNESS:  Yes, which is probably not
           13        possible because my current passport was issued -- oh,
           14        wait a minute.  This was issued in March, 2001, so --
           15                  THE COURT:  It could be February.
           16                  THE WITNESS:  Could be.  In fact, this may
           17        be Mexico, because that's where I went in that time
           18        period.
           19                  THE COURT:  It's not in England.
           20                  THE WITNESS:  No, it's not.  And I'll show
           21        you in the beginning, which -- this is when the
           22        passport was officially canceled, which is March 2001.
           23                  And I'll go back to the beginning because I
           24        didn't cover these.  This is Denmark, which is 1987.
           25                  This is Spain, also June 1989.  In fact,
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 49
            1        it's the 18th of June, 1989.  And this is the Gatwick
            2        stamp, so that's where I did go through --
            3                  THE COURT:  Right.
            4                  THE WITNESS:  -- through Gatwick.  And I
            5        think we went through these.
            6                  THE COURT:  I think we did.  There's a 1992
            7        U.S. Immigration stamp.  I don't know if we did that,
            8        U.S. Immigration in '87, and January 20th of '99 --
            9        '90, 1990, U.S. Immigration.
           10                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           11                  THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you.
           12                  MR. FUGATE:  May I proceed, your Honor?
           13                  THE COURT:  You may.
           14   MR. FUGATE:
           15        Q    Additionally, Ms. Whitfield testified about a
           16   deprogramming incident with David Houghton and his family.
           17   And I think we had -- somewhere in the Midwest, for the
           18   sake of trying to get on with the testimony.  Were you
           19   involved in that attempted deprogramming incident,
           20   Mr. Shaw?
           21        A    Yes, I was.  The incident which she was
           22   describing occurred in 1992, in early 1992.  And it was in
           23   Indianola, Iowa.  It had to do with David Houghton and his
           24   family, specifically his wife.
           25             David Houghton and his wife and his children are
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 50
            1   currently and have been some years staff at the Flag
            2   Service Organization in Clearwater.  As well, he is a
            3   defendant in this case.
            4             At the time, in 1992, my responsibility was for
            5   security matters, external security matters for the Church
            6   International.  I worked in the Office of Special Affairs
            7   International.  I handled everything from attempted
            8   physical assaults on staff or churches internationally, and
            9   I was responsible for the safety of not only churches, but
           10   our parishioners.
           11             At that time, there was a situation with the Cult
           12   Awareness Network, which we heard about in this hearing,
           13   which was an organization that was involved in violent
           14   deprogrammings and kidnappings, among other things.
           15             And I was concerned with the incidents of this
           16   which were occurring, primarily in the United States but
           17   also overseas, not only with the Church of Scientology but
           18   other religions.  And we were involved in monitoring their
           19   activities to protect our parishioners.
           20             They were not quiet about what they were doing.
           21   They were quite open about it.  They published as many
           22   articles as they could.  They had their own conferences.
           23        Q    Let me ask you a question, to interrupt you.  I
           24   apologize.  But was the Church quiet about its opposition
           25   to CAN and to this deprogramming?
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 51
            1        A    Not at all.  We had a publication of our own
            2   called Freedom magazine, where we exposed many of the
            3   persons who were convicted or arrested for their
            4   involvement in violent activities -- not solely against the
            5   Church of Scientology, but other religions as well.
            6                  MR. FUGATE:  I didn't mean to interrupt you.
            7                  I just wanted to indicate, Judge, that both
            8        sides were --
            9                  THE WITNESS:  We were quite open about it.
           10        When they had their conferences, we had people who
           11        were attending to find out what their -- what their
           12        intentions were, what their plans were.
           13                  I had established communication lines with
           14        the churches around the world so that if an incident
           15        occurred or it appeared that an incident might be
           16        occurring that they would alert me to that.
           17                  Around sometime in late 1992, I did receive
           18        information, both from the Kansas City Church -- and
           19        I'm not sure exactly where else -- that possibly David
           20        Houghton and his wife were targeted for an attempted
           21        deprogramming.  And I understood that the Whitfields
           22        were involved.  That's Hana and Jerry Whitfield.
           23   BY MR. FUGATE:
           24        Q    Were they well known to you?
           25        A    They were well known to me as having been
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 52
            1   involved in these activities.  I had monitored several
            2   incidents that were of quite a concern to the persons
            3   involved because they were frankly abusive and damaging to
            4   their relationships.
            5        Q    Did you have any communication with David
            6   Houghton about this specific deprogramming incident?
            7        A    I did.
            8                  MR. DANDAR:  Hearsay.
            9                  THE COURT:  I'm sorry?
           10                  MR. DANDAR:  Hearsay.  If he wants -- he's
           11        asking about what Mr. Houghton's conversation was with
           12        him.
           13                  MR. FUGATE:  Judge, for the record, in an
           14        exhibit in the hearing -- it's Defendant's Exhibit
           15        No. 260, which I would lift up for your attention,
           16        which is Mr. Houghton's affidavit already in evidence.
           17        It describes the deprogramming incident.  But I'm just
           18        asking the contact.
           19                  THE WITNESS:  Actually, my first contact was
           20        with the Kansas City Church to identify Mr. Houghton
           21        because I had never met him before; in fact I had
           22        never heard of him.
           23                  I contacted him on the phone.  And I
           24        informed him that I was concerned that he and/or his
           25        wife may be the target of an attempted deprogramming.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 53
            1        He was very concerned about it.  He --
            2                  MR. DANDAR:  Objection, hearsay.
            3                  THE COURT:  I think that what -- in other
            4        words, we have Mr. Houghton's affidavit, so I don't
            5        know that Mr. Shaw needs to --
            6   MR. FUGATE:
            7        Q    Did --
            8                  THE COURT:  -- go into that.
            9   MR. FUGATE:
           10        Q    Did you act on any request of Mr. David Houghton?
           11        A    I did.
           12        Q    And what did you do?
           13        A    What I did was I coordinated with the counsel for
           14   the Church in Los Angeles as to what I wanted to do.  I had
           15   been requested for a -- well, I had -- let me put it this
           16   way.  Mr. Houghton requested my assistance.
           17             I at that point arranged for an investigator to
           18   fly to Indianola.  I went there myself.  I met with David
           19   Houghton.  I found out that quite possibly his wife at the
           20   time was involved with her family and his family in trying
           21   to arrange deprogramming.
           22             I -- he was very upset about what was occurring.
           23   He -- his wife was estranged from him at the time.  And --
           24        Q    Estranged?
           25        A    Estranged.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 54
            1        Q    I didn't understand.
            2        A    Which had occurred suddenly over a period of one
            3   week.  Later I learned that she had been held by -- her
            4   family -- remember now, she's an adult; she's 30-some years
            5   old.  They have adult children.
            6             And her house -- the keys to the house were taken
            7   away and the phone lines were cut, while the Whitfields
            8   spent hours giving false and salacious information --
            9                  MR. DANDAR:  Objection.  This is all
           10        hearsay.
           11        A    -- regarding the Church.
           12   BY MR. FUGATE:
           13        Q    Let me just direct your attention -- let me -- I
           14   want to move on because I said it would be short.  Let me
           15   just ask you this, sir.  Was a private investigator engaged
           16   in this incident?
           17        A    Yes.  When I went there, we didn't know exactly
           18   what was happening and who was doing what.  And I, along
           19   with counsel, asked the investigator to find out whether
           20   the Whitfields were in the vicinity and what was happening
           21   and what they were doing.  He did identify them, and he did
           22   inform me that --
           23                  MR. DANDAR:  Objection, hearsay.
           24                  THE COURT:  You know, it isn't that big a
           25        deal.  We had a slew of hearsays here.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 55
            1                  MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  I'm sorry.
            2                  THE COURT:  We have Mr. Houghton's
            3        affidavit, so, I mean -- we really don't need to go
            4        over it again, but it's not a big deal that we have to
            5        have a lot of --
            6                  MR. FUGATE:  Believe me, Judge, I'm trying
            7        to get to the point.
            8        A    The bottom line is very simple.  The investigator
            9   located them.  And on the request of Mr. Houghton, he was
           10   in the area of where Mr. Houghton met with the Whitfields
           11   because we requested him to confront them.  He did do so.
           12   And ultimately the situation with his family resolved.
           13             His -- his parents, who had hired the Whitfields,
           14   got a refund of $5,000, the amount that was paid to them
           15   for this attempt.  And his marriage was salvaged, and his
           16   family is doing very well today.
           17   MR. FUGATE:
           18        Q    And they are currently on staff in Clearwater at
           19   Flag?
           20        A    That's correct.
           21        Q    At the time, though, were they on staff or were
           22   they public Scientologists?
           23        A    They were public Scientologists.  He was a
           24   practicing dentist in Iowa.
           25        Q    Now, you have now indicated to the Court that you
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 56
            1   worked with a private investigator in the Hana Whitfield
            2   matter in Indianola.  Can you tell the Court generically
            3   how it is that you, Ben Shaw, worked with private
            4   investigators?
            5        A    Generally it's in the context of litigation.  And
            6   in that circumstance, there is not one action which is done
            7   with an investigator which is not done and cleared through
            8   counsel.
            9             Of course, as part of litigation, you need to
           10   find out what is happening, and that is really the sum and
           11   substance of that work.  It's been a long-standing policy.
           12   It's been my policy since I came to Clearwater in December
           13   of 1996 specifically to deal with this case, that that's
           14   how I operate.  All the attorneys know that's how I
           15   operate.
           16             I have done essentially nothing with my life for
           17   the last five years; I have been dealing with this case.  I
           18   know the security matters affecting the Church in
           19   Clearwater.
           20        Q    Now, during the testimony, you have heard several
           21   people allude to the fact that -- that credit reports and
           22   phone records are illegally obtained.  Can you advise the
           23   Judge on your knowledge and understanding of that
           24   allegation?
           25        A    Well, I can tell you that that doesn't occur.  It
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 57
            1   has not occurred by myself or any of my staff that I'm
            2   aware of, and I'm usually aware of what happens in any
            3   matters relating to -- anything that relates to that.
            4             The only instance where a credit report may even
            5   come up is in the standard, normal course of business where
            6   an employment agency screens employees, and it's a common
            7   practice in the world.
            8        Q    And with phone records -- we've seen phone
            9   records that in fact were introduced in this proceeding.
           10   How were those phone records obtained?
           11        A    The only phone records that I have obtained or
           12   that have been obtained in this proceeding have been
           13   through a subpoena or other legal means.
           14                  MR. FUGATE:  I want to return Exhibit 260 to
           15        the clerk, Judge --
           16                  THE COURT:  All right.
           17                  MR. FUGATE:  -- and check with co-counsel.
           18                  No more questions.
           19                  THE COURT:  All right.
           20                  Mr. Dandar.
           21                        CROSS-EXAMINATION
           22   BY MR. DANDAR:
           23        Q    Mr. Shaw, did you produce the Jesse Prince video
           24   of his exiting the Church of Scientology that was requested
           25   to be produced today?
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 58
            1                  MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor --
            2        A    Are you asking whether I brought it --
            3   BY MR. DANDAR:
            4        Q    Yes.
            5        A    -- today?
            6                  MR. FUGATE:  I can answer that.  It is here.
            7        It is going to be introduced as an exhibit, as we said
            8        yesterday, in rebuttal.  And it is -- wherever it is
            9        back there in the back.
           10                  THE COURT:  And you have a copy for
           11        Mr. Dandar?
           12                  MR. FUGATE:  I don't know the --
           13                  THE COURT:  You asked --
           14                  MR. DANDAR:  Yes, I just asked for a copy to
           15        review it.  And as Mr. Lirot said yesterday, we don't
           16        intend to use it.  I mean, we need to review it first.
           17        That's why we objected to it yesterday or when it was
           18        attempted to be introduced because it's an obvious
           19        hidden camera.
           20                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Objection.
           21                  THE COURT:  Well, we'll deal with that when
           22        we get to that.
           23                  MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
           24                  THE COURT:  So the answer is it is here.
           25        Apparently a copy has not been produced.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 59
            1                  If it is introduced, if it's going to be
            2        introduced, you will have to provide him a copy.
            3                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Right.
            4   BY MR. DANDAR:
            5        Q    Mr. Shaw, have you ever used any other passports
            6   other than the one --
            7                  THE COURT:  And frankly, you should provide
            8        him a copy anyway.
            9                  MR. FUGATE:  Yes, we will.
           10                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  Today?  I'd like to see it
           12        before they play the video.
           13                  MR. FUGATE:  Judge, we have the same thing
           14        they produced.  But we're going to introduce it as an
           15        exhibit.  It's going to be in, and we'll give him a
           16        copy, assuming that the Court admits it.
           17                  THE COURT:  Right.
           18                  MR. DANDAR:  We request a copy, whether you
           19        admit it or not.  That's the point.
           20                  THE COURT:  Well, and if I admit it, you'll
           21        certainly get a copy.  And if I don't admit it, I said
           22        you should get a copy anyway.
           23                  MR. DANDAR:  Thank you.
           24   BY MR. DANDAR:
           25        Q    Have you used other passports other than the one
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 60
            1   you showed Judge Schaeffer?
            2        A    At any time?
            3        Q    In the '90s.
            4        A    No.
            5        Q    Okay.  And can I see your passport that's
            6   expired?
            7        A    (Showed.)
            8        Q    And you have a tab where the pertinent months
            9   are?
           10        A    No.  What I tabbed was the only entries for
           11   England that existed in that passport.
           12        Q    June 18th, '89.  July 5th, '89.  And you do
           13   agree, Mr. Shaw, that sometimes when you visit England
           14   sometimes your passport does not get stamped?
           15        A    Actually, I think England is one of the more
           16   closely scrutinized immigrations in Europe.
           17        Q    So you never had that experience?
           18        A    Never.
           19        Q    Okay.  Did you ever surveil Hana Whitfield ever?
           20        A    No.  Personally, no.
           21        Q    Do you --
           22        A    But certainly I know that she has been --
           23   particularly in the early '90s when they were very active
           24   in deprogrammings that she was somebody who was -- that we
           25   were definitely interested in.  And there were occasions
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 61
            1   when the investigators were definitely monitoring what she
            2   was doing.
            3        Q    Now, I've opened up to the page that it has
            4   '90 -- goes from '87, '90 to -- and there's a -- there's a
            5   blank spot.  And there's one I can't read.  Do you know
            6   which one that is that I can't read?
            7                  THE COURT:  It looks like if you go page by
            8        page that it's not necessarily in sequential order.
            9                  THE WITNESS:  No, it's not.
           10        A    And -- I can't read it.  It looks like -- I don't
           11   know (handing back).
           12   BY MR. DANDAR:
           13        Q    Were you ever in England in the summer of '91?
           14        A    No.
           15        Q    I can't read that either, so (handing back to
           16   witness).
           17             Did you ever work with Mr. Oliver?
           18        A    No.
           19                  THE COURT:  Who?
           20                  MR. DANDAR:  Frank Oliver.
           21   BY MR. DANDAR:
           22        Q    Did you ever work with him?
           23        A    No, I did not.
           24        Q    Did he come to Los Angeles at OSA Int and review
           25   the Sally Jesse Raphael video?
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 62
            1                  MR. FUGATE:  Excuse me, your Honor.  I'm
            2        going to object to that as being outside the scope of
            3        the rebuttal, and I think he's confined to what we've
            4        asked on rebuttal.
            5                  THE COURT:  Frankly, I think once you asked
            6        about Frank Oliver he has a little latitude, so I'm
            7        going to allow it.
            8        A    What was your question?
            9   BY MR. DANDAR:
           10        Q    Did you -- do you recall watching the Sally Jesse
           11   Raphael video with Frank Oliver and others inside the
           12   offices of the OSA or the Church of Scientology in
           13   California?
           14        A    No, I do not.  I'm not sure what offices you're
           15   referring to, but I worked in a building which I'm sure
           16   that Frank Oliver was never in at that time period.
           17        Q    Are you denying that Frank Oliver had any
           18   assignments whatsoever to surveil or otherwise investigate
           19   Hana and Jerry Whitfield?
           20        A    No.  What I'm saying is that at the time period
           21   that Frank Oliver claims to have been in Los Angeles he
           22   worked in a building which is approximately two miles from
           23   where I worked.  I worked on international affairs on
           24   matters completely disrelated to what he was discussing
           25   when he was testifying.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 63
            1        Q    Did you work on the Sally Jesse Raphael show
            2   where they talked -- and had people on there who were
            3   former Scientologists, criticizing the Church of
            4   Scientology?
            5                  MR. FUGATE:  I object to that as being
            6        outside the scope and new material.
            7                  THE COURT:  Yes, unless that deals with
            8        Mr. Oliver.
            9                  MR. FUGATE:  I'm trying to tie it together.
           10                  THE COURT:  All right.
           11   BY MR. DANDAR:
           12        Q    Did you do that?
           13        A    The question is confusing.  You asked if I worked
           14   on the show.  The show was a show which aired which I saw
           15   after it aired.  That was my knowledge of that show.  If
           16   you're asking whether I had anything to do with Hana's
           17   relation to the show, the answer is no.
           18        Q    Have you ever, in your position within the Church
           19   of Scientology, seen credit reports of people who were
           20   being investigated by the Church of Scientology?
           21        A    No.
           22        Q    Have you ever seen phone records of people who
           23   were being investigated by the Church of Scientology?
           24        A    As I mentioned earlier, the phone records which
           25   have been obtained which I've been involved with were done
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 64
            1   through -- either through subpoena or other legal means.
            2        Q    Without a subpoena, without legal means, have you
            3   seen phone records?
            4        A    I've seen phone records many times, but I'm
            5   telling you that those that I've seen were either obtained
            6   through subpoena or other legal means.
            7        Q    Now, you said that your staff -- as far as you
            8   know, the staff would not have illegally obtained credit
            9   reports.  Isn't it true that your office retains
           10   independent private investigators who are not part of your
           11   staff?
           12        A    Investigators who are hired have essentially two
           13   different functions.
           14             One is litigation support -- which is any matters
           15   you would be concerned about or would be involved with --
           16   are hired through counsel.
           17             There are instances where licensed private
           18   investigators have been hired independently, which is for
           19   security.  By that I mean retired law enforcement officers
           20   who have a background in security who I have hired and I
           21   hired for the first time shortly after I came here due to
           22   the extreme security concerns I had for the Church in
           23   Clearwater, both for the staff and the parishioners.  The
           24   incidents of harassment that were occurring to our staff
           25   were severe, including bottles thrown at the Hacienda
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 65
            1   Gardens.
            2        Q    That's way beyond my question.
            3        A    I hired retired law enforcement for that purpose.
            4        Q    And Brian Raftery is one of those private
            5   investigators, right?
            6        A    He is.  He actually had a dual function.  I
            7   initially hired him for -- along with counsel -- for
            8   litigation support.  And he worked under Mr. Fugate and
            9   Laura Vaughan on the initial -- at that time period, and
           10   that was in 1997.  And sometime subsequent to that, he was
           11   made in charge of our security and interfaced with the
           12   police and our staff security.
           13        Q    And who gave him the assignment to contact my
           14   former clients, you or the attorneys?
           15                  MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, excuse me.  I
           16        object to that as being invasive into the
           17        attorney-client work privilege, and I would object to
           18        it as work product.
           19                  THE COURT:  I'm going to sustain that as it
           20        pertains to this case, Mr. Dandar.
           21                  MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
           22   BY MR. DANDAR:
           23        Q    Now, you were involved in the CAN operation that
           24   Mr. Fugate asked you about, correct?
           25        A    The CAN operation?  I don't understand.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 66
            1        Q    Right.  You -- you or the Church of Scientology
            2   sent in undercover agents to infiltrate the Cult Awareness
            3   Network, correct?
            4                  MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, I'm going to object
            5        to that again as being outside the scope of the
            6        rebuttal questions that were posed to Mr. Shaw.
            7                  THE COURT:  As to the CAN operation, to some
            8        extent I'm going to give him a little latitude.  I
            9        don't want him to go on and on, but you asked some
           10        questions about it.
           11        A    As I mentioned before, Mr. Dandar, the Church
           12   made no secret about our concern about the operations of
           13   CAN.  They were engaged in illegal activities, and they
           14   were engaged in activities that were a direct threat to our
           15   parishioners.
           16             We were very active in determining what they were
           17   doing primarily through our members, who were all over the
           18   place.  CAN was not secret about what they were doing
           19   either.  They were holding public meetings at churches, at
           20   city facilities.  And the Church, when they were aware of
           21   their activities, generally would try to find out, by
           22   attending these public meetings, what was happening.
           23   BY MR. DANDAR:
           24        Q    My question was, Did you send in or do you have
           25   knowledge of people going in to the Cult Awareness Network
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 67
            1   undercover, not disclosing that they were members of the
            2   Church of Scientology?
            3        A    No, I never was -- no, I never had anything to do
            4   with that.
            5        Q    Did you know that was done?
            6                  MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, I'm going to object
            7        to that again as being outside the scope of the
            8        rebuttal, and it would call for hearsay.
            9                  THE COURT:  I think that is -- I'll tell you
           10        what I think that is.  What that is is fairly common
           11        knowledge because there were lawsuits about that.
           12        There were lawsuits brought as to whether or not the
           13        Church of Scientology members could be members of CAN.
           14        So they couldn't have been too confidential, at least
           15        to that aspect of it, because they were trying to
           16        join.
           17   BY MR. DANDAR:
           18        Q    And letting CAN know that they were members of
           19   the Church of Scientology.  My question was, Isn't it true
           20   that people that were sent in were members of the Church of
           21   Scientology to CAN but they did not disclose that fact?
           22        A    I don't have any direct knowledge of that.  And
           23   I've seen probably what you have seen, which is Internet
           24   postings that discuss some incidents like that that have
           25   occurred.  But I don't know for certain.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 68
            1        Q    Mr. -- Mr. Shaw, you do know that one of OSA's
            2   undercover operatives is someone who uses the name of Laura
            3   Terepin?
            4        A    No.  I know that's the instance you're talking
            5   about.  I've seen about as much as you have, which is
            6   Internet postings and testimony that I've heard from
            7   Mr. Prince.
            8        Q    Her real name is Jolie Steckart?
            9        A    I don't know that.
           10                  MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor --
           11   BY MR. DANDAR:
           12        Q    Don't know that person at all?
           13        A    No.
           14        Q    Never heard that name?
           15        A    Again, I've heard that name from the Internet.
           16        Q    Now, I noticed that you didn't comment about
           17   Nancy Many's testimony, who was a volunteer for OSA Int and
           18   went undercover for a witness in the Christofferson case,
           19   Laurel Sullivan, to pretend that she was her friend and she
           20   was briefed on her sexual practices while she was a witness
           21   in that case for Ms. Christofferson?
           22                  MR. FUGATE:  First of all --
           23   BY MR. DANDAR:
           24        Q    Did you have anything to do with that?
           25                  MR. FUGATE:  First of all, object to the
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 69
            1        form.  Mr. Dandar is testifying.
            2                  And secondarily, I put him on for rebuttal
            3        for his specific knowledge and involvement --
            4                  THE COURT:  You put him on.  He could call
            5        him for surrebuttal if he wanted to ask this.  It
            6        doesn't seem like it has to do with attorney-client
            7        privilege.  It was a witness in the case.
            8                  Is that what you're doing?
            9                  MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
           10                  THE COURT:  All right.  So I'm going to
           11        allow it.
           12        A    The answer is no.
           13   BY MR. DANDAR:
           14        Q    Was Laurel Sullivan a witness for the plaintiff
           15   against the Church of Scientology in the Christofferson
           16   case?
           17        A    I don't know that for certain.
           18        Q    Do you know -- you were in OSA at the time that
           19   Ms. Nancy Many went undercover to spend the weekend with
           20   this woman, weren't you?
           21        A    I actually don't even know about that incident or
           22   what time period.  If you can give me a time period, I can
           23   tell you what I was doing at that time.
           24        Q    When did you join OSA?
           25        A    I was in OSA in its formative stages in 1982.  I
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 70
            1   was here in Clearwater, Florida.
            2        Q    And when was this Christofferson trial in Oregon?
            3        A    I think it was 1985, but I wasn't involved in it.
            4                  THE COURT:  Calm down over there.
            5   BY MR. DANDAR:
            6        Q    Now, Mr. Shaw --
            7                  THE COURT:  Let him go.  He's capable of
            8        answering these questions.
            9                  MR. FUGATE:  Judge, I said --
           10                  THE COURT:  Move on.
           11   BY MR. DANDAR:
           12        Q    Mr. Shaw, you are not here telling this Court
           13   that Hana Whitfield engaged in violent deprogramming by
           14   kidnapping people and holding them against their will, are
           15   you?
           16        A    I can't tell you that.  I know that the reports
           17   that I received -- specifically on the Houghton case, the
           18   phone line to their house was cut and her keys taken as she
           19   was being bombarded by them with false information on the
           20   Church, which extremely -- upset her family extremely.  I
           21   don't know about all the cases they were involved in.
           22        Q    Was Hana Whitfield --
           23        A    She was certainly associated with people who had
           24   been convicted, including Rick Ross --
           25        Q    Hana --
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 71
            1        A    -- Joe Sinclair, and various other Cult Awareness
            2   Network individuals.
            3        Q    Neither Hana Whitfield nor her husband have been
            4   arrested and charged with any crime associated with --
            5   involving violent deprogramming, as you've described it?
            6        A    That would be the case.  The other thing I do
            7   know about Ms. Whitfield is that she was involved in filing
            8   a lawsuit in an attempt to take over our Church.  So
            9   certainly we had extreme concern about her involvement.
           10   There's no secret about that.
           11        Q    Do you know of anyone who attempted or --
           12   attempted or did in fact get Hana Whitfield's credit report
           13   in January of 2002, when she was scheduled for deposition
           14   in this case in February of 2002?
           15        A    I do not.
           16        Q    Do you know David Raskin?
           17        A    No.
           18        Q    Had you ever heard his name before Hana Whitfield
           19   mentioned his name yesterday?
           20        A    No.
           21        Q    When Mr. Houghton met with Hana and Jerry
           22   Whitfield in a restaurant, isn't it true, sir, that he was
           23   wearing a microphone?
           24        A    I don't know for sure.  He may have.  I believe
           25   that it was researched by the investigator and that it was
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 72
            1   legal in the state of Iowa.
            2             David Houghton specifically requested that he
            3   have the investigator in the vicinity.  He -- Mr. Houghton
            4   had requested that he confront the Whitfields and speak to
            5   them about what they were doing to his family.  He was very
            6   distraught at the time because his wife had expressed a
            7   desire to leave him, and he wanted to speak to them
            8   personally.
            9             We knew about the violent and illegal activities
           10   of the deprogrammers, and we had a concern about
           11   documenting everything that occurred.
           12        Q    And as you sit here today, sir, it's true that
           13   you cannot tell this Judge that Hana Whitfield or her
           14   husband engaged in any violence whatsoever with Mr. and
           15   Mrs. Houghton.
           16                  MR. FUGATE:  Asked and answered.
           17                  THE COURT:  Sustained.
           18   BY MR. DANDAR:
           19        Q    What is a covert data collection within the term
           20   as defined by the Church of Scientology?
           21                  MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, I'm going to object
           22        to that as being outside the scope of the examination.
           23                  THE COURT:  I'm not sure that that would be
           24        proper surrebuttal.  If it would be, I'm going to
           25        allow it.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 73
            1                  What is it?  What are you talking about?
            2                  MR. DANDAR:  Covert data collection, which
            3        Mr. Oliver talked about.  They're here attacking
            4        Mr. Oliver's credibility.
            5                  THE COURT:  All right.  I'll allow it.
            6        A    Well, first of all, the words speak for
            7   themselves.
            8   BY MR. DANDAR:
            9        Q    Pardon me?
           10        A    First of all, the words speak for themselves.
           11        Q    Is that a term that's used in the Church of
           12   Scientology's Office of Special Affairs?
           13        A    No.
           14        Q    Where is it used?
           15        A    I can tell you where I know it was used in the
           16   past.  It was in use -- it was a term used in the
           17   Guardian's Office when it existed.  I know of no policies
           18   of the Church that uses that term, and it's not used in
           19   practice and has not been in the Office of Special Affairs.
           20        Q    Since when?  Ever?
           21        A    As far as I recall, yes.
           22        Q    Have you produced a Hat pack of the information
           23   officer and the intelligence officer of the Guardian's
           24   Office that I requested yesterday to be produced today?
           25                  MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, the request for
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 74
            1        production is directly to counsel, and we responded to
            2        it.  And I object to that.
            3                  THE COURT:  All right.  Sustained.
            4                  MR. DANDAR:  I don't understand that.  I
            5        mean --
            6                  THE COURT:  Well, the answer is a request
            7        for production is right.  If they object to it, they
            8        file, I have a hearing.  You don't -- whether he did
            9        or he didn't really is irrelevant.
           10                  MR. DANDAR:  I haven't seen a response to
           11        this, though.
           12                  THE COURT:  Well, he said he filed one.
           13                  MR. FUGATE:  Well, there is one.  Let me
           14        find it.
           15        A    I can answer the question.  There is none.
           16   BY MR. DANDAR:
           17        Q    Well, in the Church of Scientology, outside of
           18   the old Guardian's Office, is the term ODC, for overt data
           19   collection, used?
           20        A    I've seen that term used at times through the
           21   years.  It's not something that's in use now, but it speaks
           22   for itself.  It essentially means public research, like you
           23   do in a library, courthouse.
           24        Q    And covert data collection, CDC, is that a term
           25   you've seen used by the Office of Special Affairs?
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 75
            1                  MR. FUGATE:  Asked and answered, Judge, and
            2        I object.
            3                  THE COURT:  You're objecting too much.
            4        Overruled.
            5        A    You did ask that, and I answered that.  I have
            6   not seen that in use in the Office of Special Affairs.  The
            7   words speak for themselves.  It would mean to me that it's
            8   information that's collected in a means which is not easily
            9   visible.
           10   BY MR. DANDAR:
           11        Q    Which is not what?
           12        A    Visible.
           13        Q    Does it include illegal collections of
           14   information?
           15        A    Again, that's -- no, it does not include illegal
           16   collection of information.
           17        Q    Is that term used in the Hat pack for the
           18   information officer and the intelligence officer at OSA?
           19        A    There is no such thing in OSA.  What you're
           20   referring to is a Guardian Office check sheet or Guardian
           21   Office materials, which was disbanded in 1981.
           22        Q    Okay.  Is the term "the ODC" or "the CDC" used at
           23   all anywhere?
           24                  THE COURT:  He's answered these questions.
           25                  MR. DANDAR:  Well, I just want to know if it
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 76
            1        was used anywhere, in the Hat packs of anyone at OSA.
            2        A    I think I did answer that.  CDC, no, no.
            3                  MR. DANDAR:  I'm almost done.
            4                  Just give me a second, Judge.
            5                  THE COURT:  All right.
            6                  MR. DANDAR:  That's all I have.  Thank you.
            7                  THE COURT:  Do you mind if I ask a couple
            8        questions?
            9                  MR. FUGATE:  Oh, no.
           10                  THE COURT:  Go ahead and finish whatever it
           11        is -- are you done?
           12                  MR. FUGATE:  No questions.
           13                  THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Shaw, the Office of
           14        Special Affairs, would every -- I guess Flag has one.
           15                  THE WITNESS:  Yes.
           16                  THE COURT:  Does every org have an Office of
           17        Special Affairs?
           18                  THE WITNESS:  Well, it's called in the
           19        Church an organization which we call our Class V
           20        organization.  It's called the Department of Special
           21        Affairs.  And the continental office and the
           22        international office is called the Office of Special
           23        Affairs.  So it's essentially -- it's the same
           24        function, but it's a different title in the Church.
           25                  THE COURT:  Can you give me a rough idea --
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 77
            1        for example, at Flag -- how large a body?  By that I'm
            2        talking about how many people would be assigned to
            3        this division or office.
            4                  THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.  Currently in our
            5        office I have probably 20 to 25 staff.  Of those,
            6        about five are involved in community activities,
            7        community relations, which is really my primary
            8        interest; and the remainder, including the many staff
            9        you see here every day, work day in and day out on the
           10        litigation on this case.  If we did not have this
           11        case, it would be much smaller, and I would be
           12        devoting primary activities to community involvement,
           13        community affairs.  That's -- which is our first
           14        function.
           15                  THE COURT:  I do not have any idea what the
           16        number is, but when Mr. Oliver was testifying, one
           17        of -- and you may not have seen it either, and if you
           18        haven't, why, we'll get it out for you.  One of the
           19        documents that was introduced, I believe he said as
           20        part of his Hat pack, was sort of a check sheet that
           21        he said when he was assigned or given a name that he
           22        did all these things.  In other words, he -- I don't
           23        remember --
           24                  THE WITNESS:  His --
           25                  THE COURT:  His --
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 78
            1                  THE WITNESS:  His check sheet for his
            2        course, is that what you're talking about?
            3                  THE COURT:  No.  I think it was -- he said
            4        it was a check sheet for any person that he was
            5        assigned.
            6                  THE WITNESS:  Oh.
            7                  THE COURT:  For example, if he was given the
            8        name Ken Dandar --
            9                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           10                  THE COURT:  -- that would be at the top.
           11                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           12                  THE COURT:  And he didn't know what -- why
           13        he was gathering this, but it was to be he was to do
           14        A, B, C, D, E, F, G, whatever is on that sheet.
           15                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           16                  THE COURT:  Do you know what that sheet is?
           17                  THE WITNESS:  Yes, I recall seeing that, and
           18        I've seen that before.  And that is what was termed as
           19        an overt data collection checklist.
           20                  THE COURT:  Okay.  Is that what Mr. Dandar
           21        was talking about?  Overt?
           22                  THE WITNESS:  Overt data collection
           23        checklist was something that was in use some time ago,
           24        and it's not used -- that term isn't used anymore.
           25        But essentially what it is, it's a research guide.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 79
            1                  If you would see the checklist, it had items
            2        such as library, courthouses, licensing places.  And
            3        it's an aid to somebody to do research on something,
            4        whether it's litigation or whether it's some other
            5        matter where we need to find out what is happening in
            6        the area or a person or a group.
            7                  THE COURT:  Do you -- do your internal -- I
            8        guess OSA would have sort of internal investigators.
            9                  THE WITNESS:  Yes.
           10                  THE COURT:  And then you hire outside
           11        investigators, who are other investigators.
           12                  THE WITNESS:  Right, for specialized work or
           13        for professional work.
           14                  These days, with the electronic world the
           15        way it is, almost the entirety of our research is done
           16        by the computer, because you could sit down and access
           17        everything from court records, newspapers, and all
           18        that sort of thing.  And many years ago, that would be
           19        consistent with going to the newspaper morgues and
           20        libraries, et cetera.
           21                  But I do, in the normal course of activity,
           22        have somebody who is very proficient in doing that
           23        sort of research, though.  If something comes up, who
           24        the legislator is in such and such a place or what's
           25        happening, with the computer we find out.  And it
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 80
            1        could be for any purpose, from public relations or
            2        community affairs or litigation support.
            3                  THE COURT:  Would the Office of Special
            4        Affairs' internal investigators, whatever term
            5        they're -- whatever the terminology is used for an
            6        internal investigator, would it be a function to -- we
            7        all know what the term "suppressive person" is --
            8                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
            9                  THE COURT:  -- to go to the neighbors of a
           10        suppressive person and pass out what I would consider
           11        untrue data to malign that person?
           12                  THE WITNESS:  Right, I got your question,
           13        and it may take me a little bit to explain it, because
           14        I think the term is a little confused in the
           15        proceeding.
           16                  A suppressive person per se within the
           17        Church is a term used for somebody who is officially
           18        declared a suppressive person.  And that's only done
           19        in the instances of somebody who had been a
           20        Scientologist.  And it is done very specifically, with
           21        our ethics technology, to allow them a method by which
           22        they can return to good standing in the Church.  And
           23        that's the sole reason for the declare.
           24                  If somebody is declared a suppressive person
           25        for violation of ecclesiastical codes, serious
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 81
            1        violations of ecclesiastical codes, which is why they
            2        would be declared, it gives them, through the policy
            3        letter of suppressive persons issued December of
            4        1965 -- which has been put into evidence in this
            5        case -- Steps A to E to apply.  Once done, that label
            6        gets lifted.
            7                  That's entirely different from the term
            8        "suppressive," which is a generic term for somebody
            9        who does more destructive things than good things in
           10        life.  An example is Hitler or Osama bin Laden.  Those
           11        people would be considered suppressive because of the
           12        destructive acts they committed.
           13                  And somebody can be suppressive who has
           14        never had any contact or anything to do with the
           15        Church at all because in life they are destructive.
           16                  And so I'm just differentiating between the
           17        things, because Mr. Dandar certainly has never been
           18        declared or never would be declared a suppressive
           19        person, which is something that was implied in this
           20        case.  And those policies which we have do not apply
           21        to him.
           22                  THE COURT:  Mr. Minton likewise?
           23                  THE WITNESS:  Likewise Mr. Minton.
           24        Mr. Minton is who he is.  And certainly from our view
           25        he committed many suppressive acts.  He was
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 82
            1        destructive through a period of years.  He spent time
            2        taunting and harassing Church members in Clearwater.
            3        We spent time trying to avoid that.  That -- that
            4        doesn't mean he's a suppressive person per our Church
            5        codes.
            6                  THE COURT:  Let's -- let's avoid the word
            7        "suppressive person."
            8                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
            9                  THE COURT:  Someone who would be
           10        considered -- maybe "enemy" is too strong.  Maybe it
           11        isn't.  Bob Minton, someone who is actively picketing
           12        the Church, who is actively taunting the Church --
           13                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           14                  THE COURT:  -- who is actively employing
           15        persons to do the same --
           16                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           17                  THE COURT:  -- this type of -- Bob Minton.
           18                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           19                  THE COURT:  Would anyone inside the Office
           20        of Special Affairs, an investigator, be assigned to go
           21        to his neighbors and pass out information about him
           22        that would not be true, that would be harmful?
           23                  THE WITNESS:  No.  What -- to put it in
           24        context a little bit -- because, as we know, there
           25        have been some pamphlets passed out about him to some
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 83
            1        of his neighbors.  And to my knowledge, most of it was
            2        either true or thought to be true by those who did it.
            3        And -- and I know that it's not a function of the
            4        Office of Special Affairs.  It doesn't mean that there
            5        may not be some people who are aware of what's
            6        happening.
            7                  I know that, for example, that some of the
            8        fliers which were -- which I'm aware of being passed
            9        out -- and actually the only ones I'm aware of being
           10        passed out in Clearwater -- had to do with this movie,
           11        The Profit.
           12                  There were people in the Church who were
           13        quite concerned about what was happening, and they
           14        handed out some fliers -- it was actually two members
           15        over a few days -- to people in the vicinity which had
           16        information on it.
           17                  But you have to step back a little bit to
           18        see what they were facing, which was they
           19        considered -- and I considered -- a general siege of
           20        the Church which began in December of '96, when the
           21        media first started coming out and shortly thereafter
           22        accusing these Church members of killing a woman,
           23        which was so offensive to any Scientologist to even
           24        consider that.  And I think that this was a kind of a
           25        reaction to that.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 84
            1                  And the picketing started coming up and
            2        Mr. Minton coming into town.  And these Church members
            3        wanted to live their life and conduct their services
            4        and partake in religious services.
            5                  And each one is an individual.  Each one has
            6        a different reaction to it.  And some of them, at that
            7        time, ignored it; and others were more active, wanted
            8        to do something about it, to let these people know
            9        what their feelings were.
           10                  Now, our response to it, particularly around
           11        the time that Judge Penick was holding his hearings on
           12        the injunction, is we made a policy of ignore them,
           13        period.
           14                  And I made that a policy of my staff and our
           15        parishioners, and we did everything we could to avoid
           16        them when they came.  The Church, when they came to
           17        one entrance, we would use the other entrance.
           18                  Remember the video of Mr. Oliver on the side
           19        of the Fort Harrison.  At that time that was our main
           20        entrance we were using.  And when they came there, I
           21        showed up and I told the staff, who are the security
           22        staff there, to close down the door and use another
           23        entrance.  That definitely was our policy.
           24                  THE COURT:  So your policy -- again, getting
           25        back to what my question was -- if your policy was if
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 85
            1        you were visiting or seeing a neighbor or passing any
            2        information out as an internal investigator, someone
            3        who was a Church of Scientology member working in the
            4        Office of Special Affairs would not have passed out
            5        knowingly false information.  You might have passed
            6        out true information.
            7                  THE WITNESS:  That's correct.
            8                  THE COURT:  Okay.  Do you -- in the same
            9        vein, would you have -- would it have been the policy
           10        of the Office of Special Affairs to hire an outside
           11        investigation -- outside investigator to deliberately
           12        pass out false information about a person you
           13        considered to be an enemy or whatever lighter or
           14        stronger term you might want to put on it who was not
           15        a member of the Church of Scientology?
           16                  THE WITNESS:  No, it would not be a policy
           17        or a practice.  And the only time I'm aware -- I'm
           18        aware that outside investigators have been hired has
           19        either been for litigation support -- that is,
           20        investigation -- or security.
           21                  THE COURT:  Okay.  The -- the collection of
           22        data on an individual -- forget the security for the
           23        moment.  The collection of data on an individual that
           24        might be perceived to be an anti-Church -- a problem
           25        for the Church would be done by the Office of Special
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 86
            1        Affairs internally?
            2                  THE WITNESS:  Anything that related to
            3        somebody who might be considered an enemy or somebody
            4        who is attacking the Church would be dealt with by my
            5        office.
            6                  THE COURT:  Okay.  Let's say -- I'm talking
            7        now about people perhaps that were with the Lisa
            8        McPherson Trust but they were not involved in any
            9        litigation --
           10                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           11                  THE COURT:  -- so you would not have needed
           12        any outside investigators for litigation --
           13                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           14                  THE COURT:  -- or for security.
           15                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           16                  THE COURT:  Let's assume that you don't need
           17        them for security --
           18                  THE WITNESS:  Hopefully.
           19                  THE COURT:  -- for this person, but it's
           20        somebody that you may have wanted to gather data on
           21        because this was a person who was anti-Church --
           22                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           23                  THE COURT:  -- who may have been a problem
           24        with the Church.
           25                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 87
            1                  THE COURT:  You were going to gather that.
            2        Would the Office of Special Affairs and your internal
            3        people be the ones who would do that?
            4                  THE WITNESS:  Well, any -- to a major
            5        extent.  I mean, in the case of the Lisa McPherson
            6        Trust, they were right next door to the Church.  So
            7        one of my first actions was to hire off-duty law
            8        enforcement.  And ultimately a large part of that
            9        function was taken over by the Clearwater police
           10        department.  But our job was to prevent
           11        confrontations, to prevent situations from occurring.
           12                  If we needed information, certainly we could
           13        do it on our own through the Internet or other data
           14        collection, that we needed to know who these people
           15        were, to find out who they were.
           16                  As you know, we had a video camera on the
           17        streets specifically to be able to monitor whether
           18        there was going to be any situation with
           19        confrontations, because prior to them moving in, our
           20        staff walked right in front of their door every hour
           21        to go from one building to another.  When they moved
           22        in, I issued a general order to avoid that.
           23                  But that's all things that would be pretty
           24        much coordinated from my office.
           25                  THE COURT:  I think that's really all I have
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 88
            1        for now.
            2                  Anything else?
            3                  MR. FUGATE:  Well, Judge, I just have one
            4        question for perspective.
            5                      REDIRECT EXAMINATION
            6   BY MR. FUGATE:
            7        Q    You indicated that the -- in response to Judge
            8   Schaeffer's question that there are 20 to 25 staff in OSA
            9   presently at Flag?
           10        A    That's correct.
           11        Q    How many staff do you know are there at Flag
           12   outside of those?
           13        A    There's approximately 1,300 staff.
           14        Q    All right.
           15        A    Certainly the primary function and activity of
           16   the Church in Clearwater is delivery of our religious
           17   services.
           18                  MR. FUGATE:  Thank you.  That's all.
           19                  THE COURT:  1,300, did you say?
           20                  THE WITNESS:  Yes.
           21                  THE COURT:  Question?
           22                       RECROSS-EXAMINATION
           23   BY MR. DANDAR:
           24        Q    Mr. Shaw, would I be considered a suppressive --
           25                  MR. FUGATE:  I'll answer that.  Excuse me.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 89
            1        A    I think that's sort of an inapplicable question.
            2   Whether you are or aren't is determined by your behavior.
            3   As I explained to the Judge, the term "suppressive person"
            4   or "Suppressive Person Declare" is used in instances of
            5   former members of the Church of Scientology to give them an
            6   opportunity to handle that condition.
            7   BY MR. DANDAR:
            8        Q    And you are aware, though -- maybe you're not,
            9   but I'm sure you are -- that there's policies written by
           10   Mr. Hubbard that defined a suppressive person without
           11   mentioning anywhere whether that person has to be a former
           12   member or current member of the Church of Scientology?
           13        A    That's entirely possible.  What I was referring
           14   to is the actual declaring a person a suppressive person.
           15        Q    I understand.
           16        A    Yes.
           17        Q    So someone who is criticizing or suing the Church
           18   of Scientology definitely would be considered a
           19   suppressive, wouldn't he?
           20        A    That's not necessarily true.  I mean, in your
           21   instance, you filed a $50 million lawsuit against the
           22   Church and with charges which are, in my view, outrageous,
           23   and -- I'm not even going to get into describing all the
           24   different factors.  But that's different from somebody who
           25   is in an auto accident or maybe somebody that was an
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 90
            1   employee of the Church and something we would deal with on
            2   a routine basis.
            3        Q    All right.  So somebody alleges the Church caused
            4   the death of one of its own members would be definitely
            5   something that would label the people behind that suit
            6   suppressives?
            7        A    Mr. Dandar, not only have you accused the
            8   Church --
            9                  THE COURT:  Mr. Shaw, you need to answer the
           10        question.  Then you can explain all you want.
           11                  THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Your question again?
           12                  THE COURT:  Would he be a suppressive?
           13                  THE WITNESS:  Well --
           14                  THE COURT:  Under the term as defined by
           15        Mr. Hubbard and policy.
           16        A    Okay.  I guess the way to answer that is, yes,
           17   you could be.  It depends on your behavior.  If you take
           18   actions that are destructive, lie, cheat, make allegations
           19   which are false, then that is suppressive and you would be
           20   suppressive.
           21   BY MR. DANDAR:
           22        Q    So therefore, pursuant to the Church policy, I
           23   could be destroyed?
           24        A    That's false.
           25        Q    And you mentioned about passing out fliers.  You
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 91
            1   had people pass out fliers to Jesse Prince's neighbors,
            2   didn't you?
            3        A    No.
            4        Q    You know about that, though, don't you?
            5        A    No, I don't.  I'm not even aware of what he's
            6   talking about or you're talking about.
            7        Q    His neighborhood where he lives with his fiancee
            8   and his two children.
            9        A    No.
           10        Q    Oh, I'm sorry.  In Boulder, Colorado --
           11        A    No.
           12        Q    -- did you have fliers passed out there?
           13        A    No.  First of all, he lived in Boulder, Colorado,
           14   around 1980 -- '98 or something like that, and I lived
           15   here.
           16        Q    Okay.  You have no knowledge about that?
           17        A    No, I do not.
           18        Q    All right.  Do you have knowledge about your
           19   private investigator telling the Largo police department
           20   that Mr. Prince was a dealer of cocaine?
           21                  THE COURT:  We went through that a long time
           22        ago at another hearing.
           23                  MR. DANDAR:  All right.  That's all I have.
           24                  THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.  You may step
           25        down.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 92
            1                  Oh, I do have a question.  Is there a
            2        lawsuit -- in other words, there would be lawsuits
            3        that would involve Flag, who is going to be a
            4        permanent member of this community, that I would
            5        assume would be handled as a routine lawsuit.  Your
            6        car hits another car --
            7                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
            8                  THE COURT:  -- some lawyer is hired to
            9        represent the driver of the other car --
           10                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           11                  THE COURT:  -- who says that your driver was
           12        negligent.
           13                  THE WITNESS:  Right.
           14                  THE COURT:  I take it this would be handled
           15        just as a regular little lawsuit, without all the --
           16        what I have seen in this case.  Is that true?
           17                  THE WITNESS:  Exactly.  I mean, I would
           18        certainly prefer to have such instances not occur, but
           19        they do occur.  That is the routine business my office
           20        would handle.
           21                  THE COURT:  A contract dispute, a real
           22        estate dispute.  In other words, I think that the
           23        contract says X and somebody else says Y, would we
           24        expect to see just a regular, routine --
           25                  THE WITNESS:  This is --
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 93
            1                  THE COURT:  -- a couple motions, set the
            2        matter for trial, get on to trial, get it resolved by
            3        a jury or a judge, without any of the types of things
            4        that we hear in this lawsuit?
            5                  THE WITNESS:  Exactly.  There are instances
            6        that have occurred like that in the last couple years.
            7        I hardly hear about it.  The persons in my office that
            8        deal with it is the insurance companies, the
            9        attorneys.  We deal with it as expeditiously as
           10        possible.  And, I mean, it's the routine activity we
           11        do.
           12                  THE COURT:  So this lawsuit that we're
           13        involved in -- I say "we" are, all of us in this
           14        courtroom are involved in, certainly for the last 30
           15        or 40 days and for several years, longer even than me,
           16        would be considered the extreme and the exception?  Is
           17        that fair?
           18                  THE WITNESS:  That is more than fair.  That
           19        is -- is absolutely true.  To tell you the truth, I
           20        would prefer to be an auditor, delivering Scientology
           21        services, but this is something I have to do.  And
           22        it's my job to do and deal with it.  And it's very
           23        much the extreme.
           24                  THE COURT:  Okay.  So if I get another case
           25        assigned to me and it says either Joe Blow versus the
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 94
            1        Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization or
            2        Flag Service Organization versus Joe Blow, it would be
            3        just like another routine case, assuming it's a
            4        routine type of case.
            5                  THE WITNESS:  Exactly.
            6                  THE COURT:  This is the exception.  Is that
            7        true?
            8                  THE WITNESS:  Exactly.
            9                  THE COURT:  Well, I'm glad to hear that.
           10        Thank you.
           11                  THE WITNESS:  Yep.
           12                  (The witness left the stand.)
           13                  THE COURT:  Anything else?
           14                  MR. FUGATE:  Well, we have --
           15                  THE COURT:  Oh, for Mr. Shaw.  Go ahead.
           16                  MR. FUGATE:  Nothing for Mr. Shaw, Judge.
           17                  THE COURT:  I need you to do something with
           18        this picture.
           19                  MR. FUGATE:  Well, actually, that was --
           20                  THE COURT:  Is that next?  I didn't want you
           21        to forget it.
           22                  MR. FUGATE:  No, I'm not going to forget it.
           23        I don't know protocolwise whether you wanted me to
           24        introduce that after you have looked at them.  But
           25        you've obviously seen them.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 95
            1                  THE COURT:  I think I've seen them, but I'll
            2        let you introduce the picture as an exhibit.  I think
            3        that it's a relevant exhibit in rebuttal.
            4                  As I said, I have -- obviously haven't
            5        conducted any in camera inspection of those files.  I
            6        will.  But I -- do you want to introduce this as your
            7        next exhibit?
            8                  MR. FUGATE:  I had the clerk mark --
            9                  It's 276?
           10                  THE CLERK:  Yes.
           11                  MR. FUGATE:  And so I would offer 276, which
           12        is the photograph, Judge, that you hold in your hand,
           13        the one I gave to Mr. Dandar.
           14                  MR. DANDAR:  I object on the ground that I
           15        searched the transcripts of this hearing and
           16        Mr. Prince's testimony, and I do not find anywhere
           17        where he said that the entire Wollersheim PC folders
           18        were pulped.
           19                  THE COURT:  Well, and I don't know -- and I
           20        do know that there have been several affidavits of
           21        Mr. Prince introduced.  So what we really have to do
           22        is see what all evidence of what Mr. Prince said --
           23        the affidavits and the testimony and I don't know.
           24        And if he didn't, then you're right; this may have
           25        little bearing.  If he did, then this may have some
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 96
            1        bearing.
            2                  So it will be introduced -- what it means, I
            3        don't know, but it's going to be introduced.  I think
            4        it's proper rebuttal.
            5                  Madam Clerk, here's mine.  Put it on a piece
            6        of paper for me, would you, and label it?  I don't
            7        want to put holes in the paper.
            8                  THE CLERK:  Yes.
            9                  THE COURT:  All right.  You may call your
           10        next witness.
           11                  MR. WEINBERG:  We don't have a witness, but
           12        we are going -- we have five short videos --
           13                  THE COURT:  All right.
           14                  MR. WEINBERG:  -- clips from the LMT that I
           15        think comprise about 14 or 15 minutes.  I'll introduce
           16        each one.  She has to fire it up first.
           17                  THE COURT:  Did I give you all records --
           18        did you take a break while I was gone?
           19                  MR. WEINBERG:  It will take about five
           20        minutes to fire this up.
           21                  THE COURT:  Madam Court Reporter, did you
           22        not take a break during that?
           23                  THE REPORTER:  I did not leave the
           24        courtroom, your Honor.
           25                  THE COURT:  All right.  Let's go ahead and
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 97
            1        take a break for the benefit of the court reporter.
            2        Let's say 15 minutes.
            3                  MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, would you like us to
            4        bring these into your chambers?
            5                  THE COURT:  I don't know.  I really don't
            6        want them in chambers.  I think what I'll do is when
            7        we're done, I'll just have everybody step outside --
            8                  MR. MOXON:  Great.
            9                  THE COURT:  -- and look with my court
           10        reporter and clerk.  And if you're the custodian, I
           11        have no objection if you're present, as long as you
           12        don't talk.
           13                  MR. MOXON:  Okay.
           14                  (Break taken at 11:12 p.m. until 11:30 a.m.)
           15                  THE COURT:  All right, Mr. Weinberg.
           16                  MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  My one small role
           17        today.
           18                  MR. DANDAR:  Judge, just let me -- during
           19        the break, I did call Dan Leipold, the attorney for
           20        Mr. Wollersheim.  I told him what's going on here with
           21        the PC folders allegedly of Mr. Wollersheim.  He's
           22        contacting Mr. Wollersheim.
           23                  He tells me under California law no one
           24        would be allowed to see any of these PC folders unless
           25        Mr. Wollersheim gave his written approval.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 98
            1                  THE COURT:  All right.
            2                  MR. DANDAR:  And I think that's the same
            3        under Florida law.
            4                  THE COURT:  Well, that is something that
            5        obviously I would need to know about Florida law,
            6        because, again, I don't care much about California
            7        law.  I'm in Florida.  These files are here, and
            8        that's where this is.  I would need to know the
            9        Florida law.
           10                  MR. DANDAR:  Well, actually, we argued this
           11        before when we requested the -- the original request
           12        for PC folders with Judge Moody.  And the privilege
           13        statute under Chapter 90, it goes in the order of who
           14        can waive priest-penitent privilege.  And, of course,
           15        the first one is the penitent.  The last one is the --
           16                  THE COURT:  Well, I wasn't going to read the
           17        file.  In other words, I wasn't interested in reading
           18        any of Mr. Wollersheim's confessions or whatever in
           19        the world they are.  I was interested in dates, and I
           20        was interested in seeing if they were
           21        Mr. Wollersheim's files.
           22                  MR. DANDAR:  But in order to be fair about
           23        this, for us to be able to respond to this accusation,
           24        we would have to look at those files.  Mr. Prince
           25        would have to look at those files.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 99
            1                  THE COURT:  Well, if you have -- I would
            2        agree that is Florida law, that there would be a
            3        priest-penitent privilege.  It's been argued by the
            4        Church that it attaches to these files.
            5                  So in the vein, whatever you want to call
            6        it, of consistency, I shouldn't be looking in them
            7        without his permission.  If he doesn't give it, why,
            8        then I guess I shouldn't look at them, because there
            9        would be no way of my looking at them that would be
           10        meaningful in camera, where I would not be expected
           11        perhaps to see a few words here and there.  So I may
           12        very well inadvertently see something that I shouldn't
           13        see.
           14                  So I guess we'll just have to -- is he
           15        trying to contact Mr. Wollersheim?
           16                  MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  And Mr. Leipold has
           17        personal knowledge about this as well.  And I asked
           18        him to fax me a letter on it.  I told him what was
           19        going on.  I told him there's about 4 feet of file
           20        material here.  And he was quite shocked about that.
           21        But he's going to fax a letter over.
           22                  THE COURT:  All right.
           23                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  What's protected, of course,
           24        is the communications, not the existence of the file.
           25                  THE COURT:  Right.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 100
            1                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  And for Mr. Dandar to talk
            2        about what's fair in here, they came in here and made
            3        accusations that these things were destroyed.  And now
            4        he's saying we can't even -- the only way to prove a
            5        negative, of course, is to prove the negative.  That's
            6        why they're here, your Honor.  The physical existence
            7        of them --
            8                  THE COURT:  I think if Mr. Wollersheim --
            9                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Mr. Dandar is talking about
           10        fairness in this situation --
           11                  THE COURT:  I think if Mr. Wollersheim
           12        claims a privilege to these 25 or 26 files, it kind of
           13        speaks for itself --
           14                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
           15                  THE COURT:  -- 25 or 26 files that must have
           16        his data that he doesn't want me to look at it.
           17                  MR. LIEBERMAN:  Precisely.
           18                  THE COURT:  But I think he has that right,
           19        because I couldn't tell you what I might have to do to
           20        do an effective in camera to know that they are indeed
           21        Mr. Wollersheim's files.  I am just to look.  I
           22        wouldn't want to read.  I'm not interested in knowing
           23        about Mr. Wollersheim or his life, but I might
           24        inadvertently see something in looking through that he
           25        might not want me to see.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 101
            1                  So I think what I'll do -- I really hadn't
            2        planned to look at them until after lunch anyway.  So
            3        by then perhaps we'll have heard from him.
            4                  MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  And in fact, when we --
            5        if we need to argue this, you can see --
            6                  THE COURT:  You don't need to participate
            7        with me in an in camera.  That is the absolute truth.
            8        Neither do they.  In other words, I'm not interested
            9        in either side participating in any in camera.  It is
           10        not as if I'm going to sit here with one side and say
           11        what is this, what is that, and the other side doesn't
           12        get to hear.
           13                  MR. DANDAR:  I would just like the
           14        defendants to produce to you the testimony that
           15        they're relying on, that Ms. Yingling, I believe,
           16        misquoted of Mr. Prince saying that he was responsible
           17        for having the entire Wollersheim PC folders
           18        destroyed.
           19                  I've looked at his affidavit that they
           20        introduced.  I looked at the testimony of this
           21        hearing.  I can't see it.
           22                  He admits that parts of Mr. Wollersheim's PC
           23        folders were produced after they were culled to remove
           24        damaging information.
           25                  So I just -- I think they should do that as
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 102
            1        a predicate.
            2                  THE COURT:  Well, I think they might.  As
            3        long as it was -- I think what they've done, they say
            4        it's theirs to waive.  That's what the testimony is.
            5        I don't remember.  Sometimes I remember these things;
            6        sometimes I don't.  I just don't remember specifically
            7        enough to say which side is right here.
            8                  So I don't want to do this another day.
            9        They're here.  I either want to look at them today or
           10        I'm not going to look at them.
           11                  MR. WEINBERG:  Here is what Mr. Prince said.
           12                  THE COURT:  All right.
           13                  MR. WEINBERG:  In a short period of time --
           14        I mean, this isn't all that he said.  But in his
           15        declaration of June 30th, 1999, in the Wollersheim
           16        case, which we marked yesterday as some exhibit, on
           17        page 7, paragraph 15 and 16 -- and I'll read this into
           18        the record:
           19                  "Later I was informed that a second court
           20        order was issued to produce Mr. Wollersheim's entire
           21        file.  Faced with the prospect of having to produce
           22        the entire file, David Miscavige gave orders that the
           23        entire file simply be destroyed by being pulped."
           24                  That's paragraph 15.
           25                  Paragraph 16:  "Pursuant to Mr. Miscavige's
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 103
            1        orders, I ordered Rick Aznaran to take
            2        Mr. Wollersheim's PC files to the recycling plant in
            3        Riverside to be pulped.  Several hours after I gave
            4        the order to have Mr. Wollersheim's PC files
            5        destroyed, Mr. Aznaran returned and confirmed that the
            6        records had been pulped and even showed me a small
            7        bottle of pulped material, saying, 'Here's what's
            8        left.'"
            9                  Seventeen:  "The material that David
           10        Miscavige ordered destroyed and which Rick Aznaran had
           11        pulped was the same material that the Court had
           12        ordered produced in Mr. Wollersheim's Los Angeles case
           13        against CSC."
           14                  How could it be any clearer than that?
           15                  MR. DANDAR:  What he's reading from is
           16        Mr. Prince testifying after they produced culled
           17        portions of these PC folders to the Court, that
           18        Mr. Wollersheim complained he wanted the rest of them,
           19        and that the rest of them -- whatever they culled out,
           20        that's the part that was destroyed.
           21                  And I have the testimony of Mr. Prince at
           22        this hearing talking about they produced some but not
           23        all.  So this apparently may be, without
           24        Mr. Wollersheim and Mr. Leipold telling me --
           25                  THE COURT:  I don't want to hear any more.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 104
            1                  MR. DANDAR:  All right.
            2                  THE COURT:  There's been a request to do an
            3        in camera hearing.  What has been produced has been
            4        produced.  If Mr. Wollersheim doesn't want me to do
            5        that, if you don't want me to do that, I won't do it.
            6                  As I said, I can see what I see.  That would
            7        not necessarily tell me that those were all of his
            8        files.  An in camera hearing would tell me something.
            9        If you don't want it done, I won't do it.  It's up to
           10        you.
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  It's up to Mr. Wollersheim.
           12                  THE COURT:  Up to Mr. Wollersheim.
           13                  MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, we have five
           14        short clips, totaling about 13 or 14 minutes, 14 or 15
           15        minutes.
           16                  The first clip -- these were from the LMT
           17        tapes --
           18                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           19                  MR. WEINBERG:  -- that were turned over.
           20        And the first clip on June 4th and yesterday -- on
           21        June 4th, when Mr. Dandar testified -- and I think
           22        again yesterday -- there was testimony about Dell
           23        Liebreich being hesitant or not particularly
           24        enthusiastic about the LMT.  And this is a clip from
           25        January 5th, 2000, which is the opening -- the day --
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 105
            1        the opening day or the day before the opening of the
            2        LMT.
            3                  This clip produced by the LMT shows the
            4        first phone call made from the LMT when they moved
            5        into their new premises by the Church.  It was to Dell
            6        Liebreich, the plaintiff.  Mr. Minton is on the phone
            7        with Ms. Liebreich.  And it is clear from the
            8        conversation that she was very supportive of the LMT,
            9        asked Mr. Minton whether there's going to be any media
           10        coverage of the event, the opening, and wishes she was
           11        there with them.
           12                  And in the room, you'll see Jesse Prince;
           13        Peter Alexander; Patricia Greenway; Ray Emmons,
           14        Mr. Dandar's investigator; and Stacy Brooks, along
           15        with Mr. Minton.
           16                  THE COURT:  All right.
           17                  MR. WEINBERG:  This is about four minutes.
           18                  (The tape dated January 5, 2000, was played
           19                  as follows.)
           20                  MR. MINTON:  Now, this is the same toast I
           21        did before.  They missed it, so we're going to do it
           22        again.
           23                  I just wanted to thank everybody who is here
           24        for making this all possible.  Without -- without
           25        everybody sitting here in this room, this wouldn't
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 106
            1        have happened, and I can't thank you enough.
            2                  So cheers to the success of the Lisa
            3        McPherson Trust.
            4                  MS. GREENWAY:  Cheers.  Here, here.
            5        Clinking plastic.
            6                  MR. MINTON:  Clinking plastic.  Yes, I'm
            7        going to get Patricia, Grady.  Okay.  Cheers.
            8                  MR. PRINCE:  Let's do that again.
            9                  MS. GREENWAY:  To the Lisa McPherson Trust.
           10                  MS. BROOKS:  It's happened.  It's
           11        incredible.
           12                  MR. MINTON:  Well, you know who we should
           13        call?  Dell.
           14                  MS. BROOKS:  Yes, we should.  You're
           15        absolutely right.  And we can call her on our phone.
           16                  MR. MINTON:  No, no, no.
           17                  MS. BROOKS:  The phone rings.  The phone
           18        works, yes.
           19                  MR. MINTON:  Oh, yes, let's make the first
           20        call to her.  Let me go.
           21                  MS. BROOKS:  Don't you think she would want
           22        to be part of the party?
           23                  MR. MINTON:  She will be.  She'll be part of
           24        it.
           25                  Hello, Dell?  Hi.  It's Bob Minton.  How are
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 107
            1        you?
            2                  Well, that's great.  Listen, you'll never
            3        believe where I am.  I am in -- excuse me -- I am in
            4        the Lisa McPherson Trust building, which we closed on
            5        this afternoon.  And this is the first phone call made
            6        on the office phones.
            7                  I wanted to tell you that the whole gang is
            8        here.  You know, we're just down here, and we're so
            9        happy that this actually happened.  Yesterday and even
           10        this morning the Scientologists were offering more
           11        than double the price of what we were paying for this
           12        building in order to try to keep us out.
           13                  And in any case, we're here.  And, you know,
           14        we're going to make our presence felt intensively here
           15        in this community.  And I wanted you to be the first
           16        to know that this has happened.  And tomorrow morning,
           17        we're going to actually open the doors of the Lisa
           18        McPherson Trust here in Clearwater.
           19                  And --
           20                  Excuse me?
           21                  Well, Tom Tobin was here this afternoon.  We
           22        had a long interview with Tom this afternoon, and so
           23        there will be something in the paper tomorrow morning
           24        for sure.  And --
           25                  Well, you know, you are here, because, you
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 108
            1        know, when I said to everybody in the conference room
            2        when we were sitting around -- I said, "Look, the
            3        first person we're going to call about this is Dell."
            4                  And I want you to be sure and tell Lee and
            5        Ann that this has happened.  And, you know -- you
            6        know, we've got a phone number for you for the Lisa
            7        McPherson Trust, which we'll start answering tomorrow
            8        morning, which I don't know off the top of my head.
            9                  MS. BROOKS:  I do.
           10                  MR. MINTON:  Stacy knows.  She's here.  And
           11        I'll put her on the phone to say hi to you.  And then
           12        there are a few other people who would like to say hi
           13        as well.
           14                  The first call from the Lisa McPherson Trust
           15        office was to Dell Liebreich.  And the first call into
           16        the Lisa McPherson Trust offices was Dell Liebreich.
           17                  MR. PRINCE:  Oh, really?
           18                  MR. MINTON:  Yes.  We gave her the number,
           19        and she called us back.
           20                  (End of playback.)
           21                  MR. DANDAR:  Object.  There's not one word
           22        from Dell Liebreich on that videotape.
           23                  THE COURT:  Overruled.
           24                  MR. WEINBERG:  The second video is from the
           25        Lisa McPherson Trust video that's dated, your Honor,
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 109
            1        May 3rd, 1999.
            2                  Now, much has been said in the course of
            3        this hearing about the alleged harassment by the
            4        Church of Mr. Minton and others.  The difficulty in
            5        responding to these allegations is that they are --
            6        oftentimes there are no specifics or details by which
            7        they can be refuted.
            8                  What this clip shows is an example, we
            9        believe, of the paranoia at least felt by Mr. Minton
           10        about the Church.  And you'll see in this video a good
           11        example of unconfirmed accusations about the Church
           12        following people and having P.I.s, or private
           13        investigators, harass them.
           14                  What you are going to see is Mr. Minton
           15        inside the LMT, walking outside the LMT with his video
           16        camera and confronting a man sitting in a vehicle who
           17        Mr. Minton believes is a private investigator, falsely
           18        accuses him as a private investigator working for
           19        Scientology, and then, you know, learns that he's
           20        wrong.
           21                  (The May 3, 1999, Lisa McPherson Trust tape
           22                  was played as follows.)
           23                  MS. BROOKS:  Hey, Mark.
           24                  MR. BUNKER:  Yes'm.  Hi.
           25                  MS. BROOKS:  Can you come over here with the
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 110
            1        camera?
            2                  MR. BUNKER:  With the camera?  Sure.  What's
            3        up?
            4                  MS. BROOKS:  Just a guy.
            5                  MR. BUNKER:  On this side?
            6                  MR. MINTON:  Yes.
            7                  MR. BUNKER:  Oh, okay.
            8                  MR. MINTON:  How are you doing there, buddy?
            9        I think I've seen you before.  You're one of the
           10        Scientology P.I.s?
           11                  MALE SPEAKER:  No.  I work for a truck.
           12                  MR. MINTON:  You're working for who?
           13                  MALE SPEAKER:  A truck.
           14                  MR. MINTON:  Your truck?
           15                  He's one of the -- this is David Lee.  This
           16        is David Lee, Stacy.
           17                  MALE SPEAKER:  (Unintelligible.)
           18                  MR. MINTON:  So are you.  He's videotaping
           19        you.
           20                  MALE SPEAKER:  (Unintelligible.)
           21                  MR. MINTON:  You know, I don't like
           22        Scientology P.I.s following our ass all over the town.
           23        That's why.
           24                  MALE SPEAKER:  Turn it off and let me show
           25        you, all right?
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 111
            1                  MR. MINTON:  All right.  Turn it off for a
            2        second.
            3                  Well, we came out here to talk to you, okay?
            4        That's why we were trying to check it out, buddy.
            5                  MALE SPEAKER:  (Unintelligible.)
            6                  MR. MINTON:  Okay.  Well, I was just talking
            7        to you, that's all.  Yes, I'm a shithead all right.
            8                  (End of tape.)
            9                  MR. WEINBERG:  The next clip is
           10        September 20th of 2000.  There was a -- quite a bit of
           11        testimony earlier in the case about Courage
           12        Productions, which is that company that Peter
           13        Alexander and Patricia Greenway had concerning The
           14        Profit.
           15                  And the LMT -- and there was testimony that
           16        those were not connected, that Courage Productions and
           17        the LMT were not connected.  Mr. Alexander when he
           18        testified also testified that he was not a, quote,
           19        anti-Scientologist.
           20                  And what this clip is, is when The Profit
           21        was being shot Mr. Alexander got into a labor dispute
           22        with the union.  And the union is IATSE, I-A-T-S-E.
           23        And you'll see signs that Mr. Alexander comes with,
           24        and that's the International Association of Theater,
           25        Stage, and Entertainment.  So what happens is the
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 112
            1        union is picketing the movie because of some labor
            2        issues that they had with Mr. Alexander.
            3                  And what you see is that Mr. Alexander and
            4        others from the LMT -- and they identify themselves
            5        from the LMT -- show up to counter picket the union,
            6        accusing the union of being controlled by the Church
            7        of Scientology.  This goes back to the -- like the
            8        last video about -- you know, the paranoia about
            9        Scientology being involved in everything.
           10                  And Peter Alexander identifies himself in
           11        the LMT, even though the movie is being picketed.  And
           12        this is a good example of how we're -- that the
           13        Church, my client, gets blamed.  And you'll see an
           14        interchange of how they -- the LMT folks are accusing
           15        the union people of being there because of the Church
           16        of Scientology.  This takes about five minutes.
           17                  MR. DANDAR:  Objection to all this.
           18                  THE COURT:  Overruled.
           19                  THE VIDEO OPERATOR:  I'm sorry, I have a
           20        technical problem.
           21                  MR. DANDAR:  Oops.
           22                  MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, while she's doing
           23        this, let me address the PC thing one more time,
           24        because we keep locating stuff for the record.
           25                  In Mr. Prince's affidavit in this case, the
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 113
            1        August 20th, '99, affidavit -- the one that, you know,
            2        was used for the complaint -- in paragraph 21 and 22
            3        of that affidavit, the August 20th in this case,
            4        page 9, Mr. Prince says with regard to this issue:
            5                  "Later I was informed a second court order
            6        was issued to produce Wollersheim's entire file.
            7        Faced with the prospect of having to produce the
            8        entire file, Miscavige gave orders that the entire
            9        file simply be destroyed by being pulped.
           10                  "Pursuant to Miscavige's orders, I ordered
           11        Rick Aznaran to take Wollersheim's Pre-Clear files to
           12        the recycling plant in Riverside to be pulped.
           13        Several hours after I gave the order to have
           14        Wollersheim's Pre-Clear files destroyed, Rick Aznaran
           15        returned and confirmed that the records had been
           16        pulped and even showed me a small bottle of pulped
           17        material.  Quote:  'Here's what's left,' end quote, he
           18        said."
           19                  So that's the affidavit in this case.
           20                  THE COURT:  All right.
           21                  MR. WEINBERG:  Are we ready, Stephanie?
           22                  THE VIDEO OPERATOR:  No, I'm sorry.  I don't
           23        know what is wrong.
           24                  MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Can you do the next
           25        one?
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 114
            1                  THE VIDEO OPERATOR:  Yes.
            2                  MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Let me introduce the
            3        next one, and then we'll see what happened to this
            4        one.
            5                  THE COURT:  All right.
            6                  MR. WEINBERG:  Hold on.
            7                  The next one is a --
            8                  THE COURT:  I'm glad there's not any of us
            9        that are perfect.  Up to now, she hadn't had a --
           10                  MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I'm going to blame it
           11        on the eclipse.
           12                  THE COURT:  Anyhow, our court reporter has
           13        had problems.  I certainly have had problems.  The
           14        lawyers certainly have.  So, see, you're just like the
           15        rest of us.
           16                  MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  It's a lot of stress,
           17        I'll tell you.
           18                  The -- what this clip is, is a December 3rd,
           19        2000, clip.  And this is at the Clearwater police
           20        department, and it is a clip of Brian Haney.  If you
           21        remember, Brian Haney is the gentleman that testified,
           22        the lawyer from Ohio.
           23                  And Brian Haney is there, along with a man
           24        named Grady Ward, whose name you've heard.  And
           25        they're down there to get some files concerning a
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 115
            1        prior investigation that Ray Emmons had done of the
            2        Church of Scientology.
            3                  Now, when Mr. Haney appeared at this
            4        hearing, he told the Court on June 19th, 2002,
            5        page 64, lines 5 through 10 -- the question was:  "Are
            6        you an anti-Scientologist?"
            7                  Answer:  "No."
            8                  Question:  "How would you classify yourself
            9        in reference to Scientology?"
           10                  Answer:  "I've been a critic of Scientology
           11        for some time, probably for five years."
           12                  And what you hear is Mr. Haney on this tape
           13        explaining to Mr. Ward from the LMT that he's going to
           14        get a lot of money, millions of dollars, in this legal
           15        case that you heard about it, and he's going to use
           16        it -- use it to fund anti-Scientology activities,
           17        specifically to supplement Bob Minton's money.
           18                  MR. DANDAR:  Relevance.
           19                  THE COURT:  Overruled.
           20                  (The tape from December 3, 1999, was played
           21                  as follows.)
           22                  MR. BUNKER:  Fellows, what's going on this
           23        morning?
           24                  MR. HANEY:  We've come to get the records of
           25        the Scientology investigation, post-Emmons report.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 116
            1        That would be January 20th, '94, until it was closed
            2        sometime in October or November of '99.
            3                  MR. BUNKER:  Right.
            4                  MR. DUNCAN PIERCE:  Here they are.  Here are
            5        the papers.
            6                  (Unintelligible.)
            7                  MR. BUNKER:  Or whatever, anything that
            8        might be a decent -- although you'd allow me to put
            9        your (unintelligible).
           10                  MR. HANEY:  No, I can't, not until the
           11        Digital case is done, not because I'm afraid of
           12        anything, but --
           13                  MR. BUNKER:  Well, I understand.
           14                  MR. HANEY:  -- my lawyer said not until the
           15        Digital case is done, you know?  Besides --
           16                  MR. WARD:  Well, there's a large reward, a
           17        penalty.
           18                  MR. HANEY:  I was going to say, there's a
           19        huge reward for that, you know, a huge reward.
           20                  MALE SPEAKER:  (Unintelligible.)
           21                  MR. HANEY:  Oh, yes.
           22                  MR. WARD:  We're talking about $100 or
           23        something --
           24                  MR. HANEY:  Oh, no.
           25                  MR. WARD:  Millions.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 117
            1                  MR. HANEY:  Yes, like 50, 60 million
            2        dollars.
            3                  MR. BUNKER:  For what?
            4                  MR. HANEY:  I got this -- you don't know
            5        about this?
            6                  MR. BUNKER:  No.  What's that?
            7                  MR. HANEY:  I got this stock that was
            8        basically worthless from a Scientologist who had
            9        defrauded me.  All right?  We've been arguing -- and
           10        now it's in escrow.  And he said I defrauded him in
           11        the settlement because I told him I wouldn't be a
           12        critic of Scientology anymore, which is -- see what I
           13        mean, why I can't be on camera?
           14                  MR. WARD:  Yes.
           15                  MR. HANEY:  And it's the main thing in the
           16        case, which is a big lie because Moxon jumped in at
           17        the end.  This stock is sitting in escrow.  In the
           18        year it's been sitting in escrow, the value of it has
           19        gone from about a million and a half dollars, where I
           20        paid a million dollars for it, to 65 million bucks.
           21        And they won't give it to me because they know I can
           22        just stick 2 or 5 million dollars every year into --
           23        into, you know, anti-Scientology --
           24                  MR. WARD:  You won't be spending any
           25        principal.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 118
            1                  MR. HANEY:  No, I won't spend the principal.
            2        I just set it up and --
            3                  MR. WARD:  Tax-free bonds.
            4                  MR. HANEY:  Yes.
            5                  MR. WARD:  The interest goes to --
            6                  MR. HANEY:  Yes.  It'll earn 6 percent
            7        tax-free, 4 million bucks.  And I just --
            8                  MR. WARD:  Oh, no.
            9                  MR. HANEY:  But it won't be tax-free if I'm
           10        donating half.  I'll just -- I'll put it in taxables
           11        and donate half of it every year.
           12                  MR. WARD:  Tax write-off.
           13                  MR. HANEY:  Yes.  And suddenly Bob Minton's
           14        thing doubles, you know, boom.
           15                  MR. WARD:  Right.
           16                  MR. HANEY:  I told Bob if we find a third
           17        one and a fourth one, it's like wow.
           18                  MR. WARD:  I know.  We'll take over this
           19        place; we'll occupy it.
           20                  MR. HANEY:  And the other thing is, every
           21        million we got is worth at least a hundred million
           22        they got.
           23                  MR. WARD:  Oh, absolutely for them, because
           24        they waste --
           25                  (Unintelligible.)
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 119
            1                  MR. HANEY:  Okay.  No problem.  We've got
            2        the time.  Thanks.
            3                  (End of tape.)
            4                  THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I don't know what --
            5        I did not hear whatever it was you wanted --
            6                  MR. WEINBERG:  We have -- I should have
            7        handed you up a transcript of that.  We have a
            8        transcript.  What he -- I'll hand it up to you.
            9                  THE COURT:  Whose tape was that, by the way?
           10                  MR. WEINBERG:  That's Mr. Bunker's tape.
           11                  THE COURT:  Mr. who?
           12                  MR. WEINBERG:  Bunker, from the LMT.
           13                  MR. DANDAR:  May I have a copy, please?
           14                  MR. WEINBERG:  Oh, yes.
           15                  MR. DANDAR:  I didn't listen to that.  It
           16        was unintelligible.
           17                  THE COURT:  I would agree.  I did hear them
           18        talking about millions, and I did hear Bob Minton's
           19        name.  But I -- I couldn't really see him, so it was
           20        even hard for me to know who was doing the talking.
           21                  MR. WEINBERG:  He was being quiet because it
           22        was something he didn't think he should have been
           23        talking about loudly.
           24                  We have one other short one, and we'll try
           25        to fix the -- try to figure out what happened on that
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 120
            1        other one.
            2                  THE COURT:  All right.
            3                  MR. WEINBERG:  This is a short clip dated
            4        December 2nd, 2000.  And there's been -- there was
            5        testimony -- what this shows is at the time of the
            6        vigil, there were -- at that time, there were -- there
            7        was a reporter outside seeking to interview Dell
            8        Liebreich with regard to the case.  And instead of
            9        Dell Liebreich speaking, Ms. Brooks speaks on behalf
           10        of Dell Liebreich.  And we're offering it.  It's a
           11        very short clip.
           12                  THE COURT:  What's the date again?  It will
           13        be on it.
           14                  MR. WEINBERG:  I believe it is December 2nd,
           15        2000.
           16                  (The tape dated December 2, 2000, was played
           17                  as follows.)
           18                  THE REPORTER:  You can't talk because your
           19        attorney told you not to?
           20                  MS. LIEBRICH:  No.  It's just that --
           21                  THE REPORTER:  Can I ask you one more
           22        question?  Well, the question I have is it's -- the
           23        criminal charges were dropped, and this is the first
           24        time that these gatherings have taken place since the
           25        criminal charges have been dropped.  And a lot of
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 121
            1        people might say, you know, it's done.  The case is
            2        closed, at least the criminal case is closed.  And I
            3        guess I was just wondering what your thoughts were
            4        about that.
            5                  MS. BROOKS:  Hi.
            6                  THE REPORTER:  Hi.
            7                  MS. BROOKS:  The reason the criminal case
            8        was closed is because the medical examiner changed her
            9        report.  There was every reason to believe that the
           10        medical examiner changed her report because of
           11        pressure from Scientology.  It doesn't change the
           12        circumstances under which Lisa died.  It doesn't
           13        change the fact that she needs to be remembered by
           14        people with love in their hearts every year.
           15                  THE REPORTER:  And there's still another
           16        lawsuit pending, a civil one?  Is that correct?
           17                  MS. BROOKS:  That's right.
           18                  (End of tape.)
           19                  MR. DANDAR:  Note for the record that
           20        Ms. Liebreich would not talk to the reporter per her
           21        attorney's advice.
           22                  THE COURT:  I did note that.  Okay.
           23                  MR. WEINBERG:  We'll at lunchtime try to
           24        figure out what happened to the other one.
           25                  Those are the videos, plus the one that
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 122
            1        we're going to -- the last one --
            2                  THE COURT:  All right.
            3                  MR. WEINBERG:  -- we're going to play.
            4                  THE COURT:  I'm sorry, did you say that's
            5        all you have left to do?
            6                  MR. WEINBERG:  No.  That's all the videos.
            7                  THE COURT:  Okay.
            8                  MR. WEINBERG:  We'll go to the next thing.
            9        And over lunch we'll try to figure out what the glitch
           10        was on that one.
           11                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           12                  MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, I have just a few
           13        additional exhibits from e-mails that have been
           14        introduced.
           15                  THE COURT:  All right.
           16                  MR. MOXON:  We unfortunately haven't been
           17        able to look through all of them, and some of them
           18        haven't been produced yet.  But there are several I
           19        would like to produce into evidence.
           20                  The next exhibit I believe is 2 -- Madam
           21        Court --
           22                  THE CLERK:  277.
           23                  MR. DANDAR:  What's the number?
           24                  MR. MOXON:  No. 277.  It's actually --
           25        No. 277 is actually a posting to the Internet.  But
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 123
            1        one of the e-mails that was produced made reference to
            2        this posting, and we were able to find it on the
            3        Internet.
            4                  And it relates to a dispute between
            5        Ms. Brooks and Ms. Greenway and states in part, one of
            6        the highlighted sections -- actually on the second
            7        page, your Honor, in the middle of the second page.
            8        It states, quote:
            9                  "It's true that I withstood repeated attacks
           10        from Scientology, but in a way that is a lot easier
           11        because I know Scientology wants to destroy me.  I
           12        understand why.  I found it much more difficult to
           13        withstand this relentless attack on me by someone who
           14        by all rights should be my friend and colleague."
           15                  We believe this corroborates the pressure
           16        from this critic community, and in particular
           17        Ms. Greenway, who considered it was more difficult to
           18        withstand than the legal issues from the other alleged
           19        harassment.
           20                  Marking as No. 278 another one of the
           21        documents produced from LMT.  This is an e-mail from
           22        Stacy Brooks to Teresa Summers dated September 10th,
           23        2001, and responds to Ms. Summers' apparent
           24        resignation from LMT.  You remember that time that --
           25        the resignation in September of 2001 when LMT was
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 124
            1        breaking up?
            2                  THE COURT:  Right.
            3                  MR. MOXON:  And it states in the
            4        highlighted --
            5                  THE COURT:  Let me just ask you a question
            6        here.  I can see that it's from Stacy Brooks, but King
            7        Peter is -- it says "to."  That would be Peter
            8        Alexander.  And then it says Stacy Brooks.  I'm trying
            9        to see how we know that it's to Ms. Summers.
           10                  MR. MOXON:  If you go down -- see, these are
           11        fragments that came out of their computer.  If you go
           12        down to the top of the first page, it's the one at
           13        issue.
           14                  THE COURT:  Okay.  I'm sorry.
           15                  MR. MOXON:  It says to
           16                  THE COURT:  Okay.  I was looking at the top.
           17                  MR. MOXON:  Okay.
           18                  THE COURT:  All right.  I got it.
           19                  MR. MOXON:  And if you look at the second
           20        page that I've given you, the highlighted part
           21        states -- again, this is in response to some kind of
           22        assertions from Ms. Summers:
           23                  "I think you're missing the whole picture on
           24        funds that I've repaid to Bob from the LMT."
           25                  And then it continues:
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 125
            1                  "Even after the partial repayment, he still
            2        has put up nearly a half million dollars out of his
            3        own pocket with no hope of profit, and that doesn't
            4        count the money he loaned to Dell for the wrongful
            5        death case."
            6                  Our point of this, of course, is that
            7        Ms. Brooks corroborates in September of 2001 that the
            8        money from Mr. Minton was a loan to Dell Liebreich,
            9        not, as Mr. Dandar and the plaintiff has asserted, six
           10        months later after meeting with the Church.
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  I would object to that because,
           12        number one, she's not here for me to cross-examine her
           13        on this, and this apparently is just rank hearsay.
           14                  THE COURT:  I think that the -- we have
           15        testimony from these people, so I'm going to allow it
           16        in.
           17                  But, you know, granted -- like I told you
           18        all, an affidavit or an e-mail or somebody that can't
           19        be questioned, you know, it stands for what it stands
           20        for.  But I will certainly note that you didn't
           21        cross-examine her on it.  But she did testify about
           22        this.
           23                  MR. MOXON:  Yes.
           24                  No. 279 is -- this is another e-mail from --
           25        this one is Patricia Greenway to Mr. Minton dated
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 126
            1        January 31st, 2001, on several subjects.  In one place
            2        she notes that she's been working with Teresa Summers,
            3        quote, "to get IDs on certain Scientologists."  And
            4        she was apparently helping a man or allegedly helping
            5        a man in a custody battle prove to his wife that this
            6        man was a Scientologist.
            7                  But she notes also in discussing the movie
            8        The Profit -- and asserting to Mr. Minton that the
            9        movie will be profitable.  It says, quote:
           10                  "I also want it to be a major weapon, a near
           11        arsenal, of fighting the cult.  By making this film a
           12        success, those two tasks will be accomplished," end of
           13        quote.
           14                  We believe this corroborates Mr. Minton's
           15        testimony that The Profit was to harm Scientology and
           16        refutes Mr. Alexander's testimony that it wasn't even
           17        about Scientology.
           18                  MR. DANDAR:  Well, as long as we get
           19        testimony from somebody that "the cult" is
           20        Scientology.  We don't know who she's talking about.
           21                  THE COURT:  Well, if that's an objection,
           22        it's overruled.
           23                  What number was that?
           24                  MR. MOXON:  That was 279, your Honor.
           25                  This is 280 (handing).
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 127
            1                  I've marked as No. 280 an e-mail from Mark
            2        Bunker to Stacy Brooks dated June 25th, 2001, in which
            3        Mr. Bunker quotes to a response from a posting to
            4        Patricia Greenway, essentially trashing Ms. Brooks and
            5        Mr. Minton and leading to the upset by Mr. Minton over
            6        Ms. Greenway's postings to the Internet, as Mr. Minton
            7        testified about in these hearings.
            8                  It also notes that Mr. Dandar and Mr. Emmons
            9        were, quote, "kicked out of the LMT."  Whether or not
           10        they were kicked out certainly shows that they were
           11        involved in LMT and they were there.
           12                  THE COURT:  There was another -- this was
           13        one of the ones that I reviewed.  And there was this,
           14        and then there was another document that I gave to you
           15        all that -- this one wasn't real clear, but it was
           16        somebody going through all of the comments and
           17        responding to them.  So -- in many of them, as I
           18        recall, they were trying to explain why what she was
           19        saying wasn't even accurate.
           20                  MR. MOXON:  Yes.
           21                  THE COURT:  So I don't know -- I happen to
           22        know that there's a lot of dispute over the accuracy
           23        of any of this.  So --
           24                  MR. MOXON:  I completely --
           25                  THE COURT:  -- please understand that I know
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 128
            1        that there's -- I don't know that I believe anything
            2        in here.
            3                  MR. MOXON:  Okay.
            4                  THE COURT:  Mostly because, as I said, a
            5        person who was recalling that she had said this --
            6        there was another document, where somebody went
            7        through it line by line almost and started saying:
            8        Well, this is not true because of such and such and
            9        this is not true.
           10                  I don't know which is true, but --
           11                  MR. MOXON:  Well, I don't either, your
           12        Honor.  I'm not putting it in to say these assertions
           13        are accurate.
           14                  THE COURT:  And I don't remember what was
           15        said about Ken Dandar and Ray Emmons being kicked out
           16        of LMT, but there was an explanation for that.
           17                  MR. DANDAR:  And this isn't from any of the
           18        witnesses.  I don't even know who it's from.
           19                  MR. MOXON:  Well, it's an e-mail from Mark
           20        Bunker to Stacy Brooks.
           21                  THE COURT:  Yes.
           22                  MR. DANDAR:  Where does it say that?
           23                  THE COURT:  There's -- there's -- if you
           24        will -- if you ever care to get these documents, you
           25        would find that there is a response to this from
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 129
            1        somebody -- Mark Bunker, I think -- where Mark Bunker
            2        goes through whoever it is that -- whoever it is that
            3        revealed this, which is all they could remember about
            4        what Patricia Greenway had said.  Mark Bunker writes
            5        back -- I believe it's Mark Bunker -- and responds and
            6        explains what each and every one of these things is
            7        about and whether or not it's true or not true or some
            8        comment about it or what have you.
            9                  So if you're interested, why, you can read
           10        it.  I don't remember.
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  I'm not interested.
           12                  MR. MOXON:  And I'm not putting this in for
           13        the truth of what is stated --
           14                  THE COURT:  Right.
           15                  MR. MOXON:  -- in a person's e-mails, but
           16        only that there was this --
           17                  THE COURT:  I know -- I guess what I'm
           18        saying is I don't want you all to think that I think
           19        this means that Ken and Ray -- Ken Dandar and Ray
           20        Emmons were somehow or another a part of LMT and
           21        were -- I can't remember what that was, but, I mean,
           22        almost everything in here was sort of refuted, like it
           23        was just all a bunch of hooey.
           24                  MR. MOXON:  Okay.
           25                  THE COURT:  I just happened to know that
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 130
            1        because I reviewed it.
            2                  MR. MOXON:  Thank you.
            3                  THE COURT:  But I will receive it.
            4                  MR. MOXON:  Thank you, your Honor.
            5                  Marking as No. 281 another e-mail produced
            6        from the LMT materials.  This is from LMT, an employee
            7        or contractor of Patrick Jost, dated July 24th, 2001,
            8        to Teresa Summers regarding sending letters to
            9        licensing agencies, schools, and insurance carriers
           10        about Scientology.
           11                  And he says, in part, quote:
           12                  "I really think that it won't take much to
           13        get a couple of the licensing agencies and schools to
           14        look into WISE.  If we work with them, just as
           15        Scientology always manages to work with prosecutors
           16        when they come after us, we can make something
           17        happen," end of quote.
           18                  And WISE, your Honor, stands for -- it's an
           19        acronym for the World Institute of Scientology
           20        Enterprises.  It's part of the Scientology
           21        ecclesiastical structure.  It deals with ethical
           22        business practices in and through the Scientology
           23        community.
           24                  And Mr. Jost refers to himself as a project
           25        leader on whatever this enterprise is.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 131
            1                  I marked as Exhibit 282 -- this is an e-mail
            2        from -- in part from Mr. Dandar to Teresa Summers
            3        dated December 11th, 2000, simply asking Ms. Summers,
            4        quote, "See if Kim will call me."
            5                  And this relates to a person who is named
            6        Kim.  And you'll see that on the second page I've
            7        actually crossed out Kim's last name.  Because of the
            8        sensitivity of names of individuals, I've taken that
            9        out.
           10                  But if you want the originals, it's in the
           11        files.  But I thought it best, whatever we're putting
           12        here on the record, just to go ahead and cross her
           13        name out.  I do in fact have an original if you want
           14        to see it.
           15                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           16                  MR. MOXON:  And the attached communication
           17        indicates that this is -- this is about one of the
           18        Church witnesses, Marcus Quirino, and his family.
           19        Marcus Quirino was one of the persons that was working
           20        on the -- watching Lisa, and Marcus Quirino in fact
           21        quote up a summary report after Lisa's death.
           22                  THE COURT:  I've never heard his name.
           23                  MR. MOXON:  He was a --
           24                  THE COURT:  Was he a watcher?
           25                  MR. MOXON:  He wasn't a watcher.  He was
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 132
            1        someone right afterwards who collected information and
            2        wrote a -- essentially a summary report.
            3                  THE COURT:  Okay.
            4                  MR. MOXON:  Teresa Summers has obviously
            5        forwarded some personal information to Mr. Dandar,
            6        prompting him to see if Ms. Summers could connect him
            7        up with these witnesses.  And she does so in a further
            8        e-mail that's attached here dated December 12th, 2000,
            9        saying, quote:  "The attorney handling the Lisa M.
           10        suit may want to talk to you.  He will e-mail you."
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  This has nothing to do with me
           12        trying to contact somebody about Marcus Quirino, and
           13        you should not be left with that impression.  Again,
           14        this is a witness who they found and thought that I
           15        should talk to or she wanted to talk to me, one way or
           16        the other.  I don't even remember.
           17                  MR. MOXON:  Okay.  That's the point.
           18                  That's all we have on e-mailings for now,
           19        your Honor.
           20                  THE COURT:  All right.
           21                  MR. MOXON:  As I say, we may have some as
           22        they're produced later on by Mr. Keane.
           23                  THE COURT:  There shouldn't be any more, I
           24        don't think.  I think they have all been released.
           25                  MR. MOXON:  Well, I mean, we haven't seen
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 133
            1        them all, that's all.  Even though you've authorized
            2        them all, we haven't seen them all yet.
            3                  THE COURT:  You haven't read them all.
            4                  MR. MOXON:  That's right.  There are some
            5        that hadn't been produced.  You remember Mr. McGowan
            6        said he had to go back and look.
            7                  Thank you, ma'am.
            8                  THE COURT:  All right.
            9                  MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, the last two
           10        exhibits, 281 and 282, I'm not sure the words came out
           11        of Mr. Moxon's mouth "we offer them," but we do offer
           12        them.
           13                  THE COURT:  All right.  I must have them
           14        misnumbered because the last number I have is 281.
           15                  MR. WEINBERG:  It's possible.
           16                  You didn't offer the last two, 281 and 282?
           17                  MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
           18                  THE COURT:  I must have the wrong numbers on
           19        them then.  Is 282 attached to 281?
           20                  MR. MOXON:  No.  282 is that last one I just
           21        made reference to --
           22                  THE COURT:  Okay.
           23                  MR. MOXON:  -- of the Teresa Summers.
           24                  THE COURT:  All right.  Then 281 is the
           25        Teresa Summers from Patrick Jost.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 134
            1                  MR. MOXON:  Yes, 281 is -- that's correct.
            2        281 is Patrick Jost to Teresa Summers.
            3                  THE COURT:  Okay.  I missed one somewhere.
            4        280 then is this Patricia Greenway?
            5                  MR. MOXON:  282 is (showing).
            6                  THE COURT:  Right.  I just changed that.
            7                  MR. MOXON:  Okay.
            8                  THE COURT:  281.  I just missed a number
            9        here.  280 is what?
           10                  MR. MOXON:  You know, I missed one.
           11                  MR. DANDAR:  280 is the one that says text
           12        fragments authored by BID.
           13                  THE COURT:  I don't have that.
           14                  Oh, yes, I have that.
           15                  MR. MOXON:  Yes.
           16                  THE COURT:  The one about Patricia Greenway?
           17                  MR. MOXON:  That's right.
           18                  MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
           19                  THE COURT:  Okay.  That's 280.
           20                  MR. MOXON:  That's 280.  281 is --
           21                  THE COURT:  There's 281 now.  I'm going
           22        backwards.
           23                  MR. MOXON:  All right.
           24                  THE COURT:  279.  Oh, okay.  I think I've
           25        got it now.  I just misnumbered.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 135
            1                  MR. MOXON:  And, I'm sorry, I left one off.
            2                  THE COURT:  I've got them.
            3                  MR. MOXON:  I do have one more, though.
            4                  THE COURT:  Oh, okay.
            5                  MR. MOXON:  The next one will be two eighty?
            6                  MR. DANDAR:  Three.
            7                  MR. MOXON:  Three.
            8                  There's 283 (handing).
            9                  283 is another e-mail from LMT employee
           10        Patrick Jost dated July 24th, 2001, to Ms. Brooks and
           11        Mr. Prince and Ms. Summers.
           12                  The title is, quote, "Method is Everything."
           13                  And this e-mail discusses plans by the LMT
           14        to attack the Church's tax-exempt status from the IRS.
           15        And it concerns the letters that were subsequently
           16        sent from the LMT to I think all the churches in the
           17        United States, demanding voluminous information from
           18        the churches as a form of harassment by the LMT.
           19                  THE COURT:  Who is Patrick Jost?
           20                  MR. MOXON:  Patrick Jost is a man who was a
           21        contractor, an employee of LMT.
           22                  THE COURT:  He's a previous IRS agent or --
           23                  MR. MOXON:  That's right.
           24                  MR. WEINBERG:  And he's the one that
           25        Mr. Minton or somebody said went on this Swiss thing.
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 136
            1                  THE COURT:  Right.  I must have thought his
            2        name was spelled Y-o-s-t.  But it's J-o-s-t.
            3                  MR. MOXON:  J.
            4                  MR. DANDAR:  It's pronounced Y.
            5                  THE COURT:  Pronounced as Y, okay.
            6                  MR. MOXON:  He talks in here about tracking
            7        responses from the Church and getting ready to respond
            8        to the Church's claims of harassment against the --
            9        against the Church by the LMT.  And it notes also that
           10        the letters to the churches should be sent in plain
           11        envelopes and not come from the LMT.
           12                  Jost recommends mass mailings to the
           13        churches and then getting ready to make complaints to
           14        the IRS when the responses to information aren't
           15        forthcoming.
           16                  And he ends, quote:  "This will be fun.
           17        Just imagine the enturbulation," end quote.
           18                  I don't know if the Court is familiar with
           19        that term "enturbulation," but it's kind of an idiom
           20        in Scientology taken from the word "turbulence."  It
           21        means extreme upset.
           22                  THE COURT:  Oh.  Because I was not familiar
           23        with that word.  I mean, I'm familiar with the word
           24        "turbulence."
           25                  MR. MOXON:  That makes sense.  Someone
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 137
            1        becomes mentally turbulent, I guess.  So it's kind of
            2        a -- I don't know, a joke, I guess, "Imagine the
            3        enturbulation of Scientology when they get all these
            4        letters."
            5                  THE COURT:  All right.
            6                  MR. MOXON:  That's it.  Thank you.
            7                  MR. WEINBERG:  Ken, you need to --
            8                  MR. MOXON:  I move that into evidence, 283.
            9                  THE COURT:  All right.  I'll receive it.
           10                  MR. FUGATE:  Judge, depending on your
           11        pleasure as far as lunch goes, I have some more
           12        affidavits, realizing again that you --
           13                  THE COURT:  Well, let's go ahead and break.
           14        I was going to try to do this in camera at the lunch
           15        break, but I think I'll just wait.  I'm going to wait
           16        until you all are done.
           17                  MR. FUGATE:  That's fine.
           18                  THE COURT:  We'll be in recess then until
           19        1:30.
           20                  MR. DANDAR:  We would like the courtroom
           21        locked.  We're not going to be here for lunch.
           22                  THE COURT:  All right.
           23              ____________________________________
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                                                   Page 138
            1   STATE OF FLORIDA
            2   COUNTY OF PINELLAS
            3        I, Debra S. Turner, Registered Diplomate Reporter,
            4   certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
            5   report the foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is
            6   a true record.
            7        WITNESS MY HAND this 19th day of July, 2002, at
            8   St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida.
           10                      _________________________________
                                   Debra S. Turner, RDR
           11                      Court Reporter
                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS

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