1
           1        IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
                                  CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
           2
           3
           4
                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
           5    Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,
           6
           7              Plaintiff,
           8    vs.
           9    CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
                SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
          10    JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
          11
                          Defendants.
          12
                _______________________________________/
          13
          14
          15    PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
          16
                CONTENTS:           Conclusion of Rebuttal; Surrebuttal.
          17
                DATE:               July 18, 2002.  Afternoon Session.
          18
                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
          19                        St. Petersburg, Florida.
          20    BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
                                    Circuit Judge.
          21
                REPORTED BY:        Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
          22                        Deputy Official Court Reporter,
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
          23
          24
          25
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                                                                          2
           1    APPEARANCES:
           2    MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
                DANDAR & DANDAR
           3    5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
                Tampa, FL 33602
           4    Attorney for Plaintiff.
           5
                MR. KENDRICK MOXON
           6    MOXON & KOBRIN
                1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
           7    Clearwater, FL 33755
                Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
           8    Organization.
           9
                MR. LEE FUGATE
          10    MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
                ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
          11    101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
                Tampa, FL 33602-5147
          12    Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
                Organization.
          13
          14    MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
                RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
          15    740 Broadway at Astor Place
                New York, NY 10003-9518
          16    Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
                Organization.
          17
          18
          19
          20
          21
          22
          23
          24
          25
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           1              THE COURT:  Okay.  Are we were you able to
           2         correct the --
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  No, but we have it on video.  It
           4         got corrupted somehow.  And I don't understand how
           5         computers work, but some bug got in there.  So we
           6         have a video which is what we were going to put in
           7         evidence anyway.
           8              THE COURT:  All right.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  So here is the transcript.  I
          10         think this is very clear.  But just for the record,
          11         this is the one I mentioned earlier, the picket of
          12         the union people at The Profit movie.  And the date
          13         of this is September 20, 2000.
          14              THE COURT:  All right.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  It is about five minutes.
          16              ______________________________________
          17                (WHEREUPON, the video is played.)
          18              "We approached the company, we asked to sit
          19         down and negotiate a fair and equitable agreement.
          20         And they said absolutely not.  So that's all I can
          21         do is offer the other plan.
          22              "You got that from --"
          23              (Inaudible.)
          24              "-- woman who looks like Linda Tripp, Patricia,
          25         is that her name?
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           1              "Patricia Greenway.
           2              "Patricia is the one who said that.  And I
           3         asked her twice.  So, I mean, here I am.  We're
           4         happy to talk.  We're happy to come up with
           5         something equitable and reasonable.
           6              "So that is where we are.  We're here, we're
           7         ready to talk at any time.
           8              "Who spoke to you from Scientology?
           9              "Nobody.
          10              "Well, how did you first get --
          11              "We're labor -- (inaudible.)
          12              "I am a Presbyterian.  I don't even know what
          13         Scientologists do.
          14              "I'm a Baptist.
          15              "How did you become aware of this situation,
          16         sir?  Was there a complaint from the staff, or --
          17              "I (inaudible) -- that is not something I'm
          18         going to discuss with you.  Why we're here, why we
          19         pick certain targets, that's not something I'm going
          20         to discuss with you.
          21              "You have no idea but you are the head of this
          22         group.
          23              "The discussion is over, ma'am.  (Inaudible.)
          24              "Why is the discussion over?"
          25              (Inaudible.)
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           1              "Because I'm finished with it.  Because you've
           2         got a video guy here.  I'm not here to be
           3         interrogated by this young lady."
           4              (Inaudible.)
           5              "No, I'm not.  I'm not.
           6              "It isn't going to happen, or you either.  So
           7         this discussion is over.  Have a nice time walking.
           8         We'll have a nice time walking.  We hope it doesn't
           9         rain."
          10              (Inaudible.)
          11              "-- are you interested in hearing the other
          12         side of the story?
          13              "Are you empowered to negotiate on behalf of
          14         the company, because I don't care about Scientology,
          15         I don't care about you folks, I care about getting
          16         my guys a contract and getting them back to work."
          17              (Inaudible.)
          18              "Six days before filming is over?
          19              "If you can do that, if you can do that, then
          20         let's negotiate.  If you can't, then I am finished
          21         talking to you.  Okay?
          22              "Six days before filming is over?"
          23              (Inaudible.)
          24              "So you are not interested in hearing what
          25         else --
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           1              "I'm not interested.
           2              "Hand me your literature.  I'll read your sign.
           3         I've read your sign here.  It is all very
           4         interesting.  It's all very exciting.
           5              "So is it true that you guys were sitting in
           6         the hotel lobby of the --
           7              "Excuse me.  Excuse me.  I'm finished talking
           8         to you."
           9              (Inaudible.)
          10              "I'm finished talking to you, finished talking
          11         to you."
          12              (Inaudible.)
          13              "Enjoyed talking to you.
          14              "Any woman, period.
          15              "We're members of the Lisa McPherson Trust.  We
          16         are a watchdog group.
          17              "With respect to Scientology.  And what we do
          18         is we alert people to the dangers of this particular
          19         cult and that's why they are trying to shut down
          20         this film.  And now what you guys are doing, perhaps
          21         inadvertently, perhaps not, but you're going along
          22         with them in an attempt to destroy the public's
          23         opportunity for us to make a film.  That is all I'll
          24         saying.
          25              "One person was --
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           1              "And you had no problem with it?  And then you
           2         show up at the last moment and try to stick it to us
           3         and bully us into something?  That's ridiculous.
           4         Who do you think you're dealing with here.  We're
           5         going up against the Church of Scientology.  Let me
           6         tell you guys, they're about 50 times bigger and
           7         meaner than you ever thought of being, and we're not
           8         afraid of them and we're not afraid of you.
           9              "We're sick of it.  We're just not going to
          10         take it any more.
          11              "You don't care about America, do you?  You
          12         don't care what's good for you.  You don't care
          13         about free speech."
          14              "(Inaudible.)
          15              "You don't care about free speech.  You don't
          16         care about what's good for people.
          17              "I am out here for free speech.  So are you.
          18         So are you.
          19              "You don't care about that, do you?"
          20              (Inaudible.)
          21              "-- first Amendment.
          22              "You don't care about that.  No, it doesn't
          23         matter to you.  It --"
          24              (Inaudible.)
          25              "Let's negotiate a contract, Peter.  Let's
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           1         negotiate a contract, Peter.  Come on.  We're right
           2         here.
           3              "What is the matter with you?
           4              "Let's negotiate a contract.
           5              "All you are going to do is destroy one of the
           6         greatest films of all time with your union
           7         bullshit."
           8              (Inaudible.)
           9              "We want to go back to work.
          10              "He doesn't want to make a deal.  He's got a
          11         movie going.  Put the people back on the set.
          12              "All they have to do is negotiate a contract."
          13              (Inaudible.)
          14              "Sure, he does.
          15              "If he wants a non-union crew, then hire a
          16         non-union crew.  You want to make a non-union movie?
          17         Make it without our people.
          18              "Think whatever you like.
          19              "I know it.
          20              "You think you know it, huh?"
          21              (Inaudible.)
          22              "Okay.  Okay.  Know whatever you like.
          23              "I know it.
          24              "Know whatever you like.
          25              "But I'm just saying it's not good for you
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           1         guys.  Look at this.  Scientology's dupes.
           2              "If you think this -- this is a joke.  You
           3         people are a joke.
           4              "What?
           5              "This is a laugher to me.  This is a laugh.
           6         This IATSE, Scientology dupes?  Come on.
           7              "I'm going to tell you something --
           8              "Police -- the police --
           9              "I'm from Chicago.  When you have police,
          10         police represent the people.  Would you agree with
          11         that?
          12              "I don't -- I don't know.
          13              "I'm just telling you.  Police, don't they --
          14              "Make your statement.  Make your statement.
          15         I'm not here to be interrogated.  Okay?
          16              "Well, I'm just saying -- I am just asking you,
          17         do you think so or not?"
          18              (Inaudible.)
          19              "Okay.
          20              "I don't know.  In some circumstances, yes.  In
          21         some circumstances, no.
          22              "Okay.  So in Clearwater -- so in Clearwater
          23         they're in bed with Scientology.  They're not
          24         representing us.
          25              "According to you?
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           1              "They hit Bob Minton.  They jumped on him.  I
           2         watched it.
           3              "Who is Bob Minton?
           4              "One of the guys here.  They dove on him, threw
           5         him to the ground.  Do you think the police cared?
           6         No.  Because they are getting paid by the Church.
           7              "Gee, that's too bad.
           8              "Yeah, it's too bad.  And it's too bad this is
           9         here, too, and that people lost their jobs.
          10              "You guys, you guys are zealots.  You guys --
          11              "We are not Scientologists.
          12              "You're zealots.
          13              "We're not.
          14              "You don't have to be a Scientologist to be a
          15         zealot.  You're a zealot.
          16              "We're people that believe in work.
          17              "That's fine."
          18              (The playing of the video is concluded.)
          19              ______________________________________
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  That is it.
          21              THE COURT:  All right.
          22              MR. FUGATE:  May I proceed, your Honor?
          23              THE COURT:  You may.
          24              MR. FUGATE:  This is where I hope things really
          25         speed up.  I have got the next exhibit which I have
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           1         had the clerk mark as Exhibit 284 marked for
           2         identification.
           3              It's a copy of the last order in the Texas case
           4         that was discussed yesterday.  I think it is in
           5         rebuttal to the suggestion that in the sanction
           6         order -- this is the last order which basically
           7         sanctions the Rule 11 -- or, excuse me, the 28, 1927
           8         sanction as to Mr. Dandar, Dandar & Dandar.  It does
           9         not sanction the Church.
          10              I offer that as our next exhibit.  It basically
          11         completes the prior exhibit on the same issue.
          12              THE COURT:  This says "199."  That is the
          13         number?
          14              MR. FUGATE:  That is actually the docket number
          15         from the Texas court.
          16              THE COURT:  What is our number?
          17              MR. FUGATE:  Our number is 284.  Is that
          18         correct, madam clerk?
          19              THE CLERK:  Yes.
          20              MR. FUGATE:  Defense Exhibit 284.
          21              THE COURT:  All right.
          22              MR. FUGATE:  I offer that.
          23              THE COURT:  This appears to be an order on a
          24         motion for rehearing and reconsideration.
          25              MR. FUGATE:  I think the suggestion was, if I
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           1         recall the testimony, that on that rehearing there
           2         was a sanction entered against the Church, I think
           3         it was in questions from Mr. Dandar, if I remember
           4         correctly, and that indicates -- or in his
           5         testimony.
           6              And that indicates that is not the case, and
           7         the sanction was upheld.  And as Mr. Pope indicated,
           8         as of yesterday, was not aware of any supersedence
           9         bond.  So that is just to complete that portion of
          10         the --
          11              THE COURT:  All right.
          12              MR. FUGATE:  -- record.
          13              The next exhibit, your Honor, I had the clerk
          14         mark the original, is, speaking to Mr. Pope, he
          15         indicated that he believed that -- and I agree --
          16         that the renewed petition for removal of personal
          17         representative, which is the probate portion of the
          18         case which he described as handling yesterday,
          19         should be admitted for whatever use and benefit the
          20         Court gives it with regard to his testimony
          21         yesterday about the accountings and about the
          22         request for the expedited accounting and that the
          23         accounting be in camera to complete the Court's
          24         record/appreciation of that.
          25              And I offer it simply for the Court's reading.
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           1              THE COURT:  Why do I need all this?  All this
           2         renewed petition?
           3              MR. DANDAR:  That is totally -- it has nothing
           4         to do with our motions.
           5              MR. FUGATE:  Well --
           6              MR. DANDAR:  But it sure does show how much
           7         they want to interfere with the estate.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  Well, based on that statement I
           9         think it is worth reading because it shows what's
          10         being raised is the reason why -- it goes actually
          11         to the issue of damages in the counterclaim and the
          12         fact that, depending on the amount of damages that
          13         would be recovered, if any, in this case, we're
          14         further and further behind the 8-ball as the
          15         defendants.
          16              MR. DANDAR:  I'm sorry, but I don't understand
          17         that argument.  Two million a week and they're
          18         behind the 8-ball?  I don't understand it.
          19              What I understand is I had to demand -- request
          20         counsel to provide you with the prior order of the
          21         Texas court which does find RTC to be vexatious
          22         litigators.  It does not sanction them, but
          23         sanctions my brother and I.  But does find them to
          24         be a vexatious litigators, just as the Second
          25         District Court of Appeals said they had conducted
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           1         discovery with a scorched earth policy in this case.
           2              And to provide you just half of the picture I
           3         don't think is a proper way to do it.
           4              THE COURT:  Yes, if I don't get the order this
           5         reconsiders, I'm not going to take --
           6              MR. FUGATE:  It is already in evidence, Judge.
           7              MR. WEINBERG:  It is already in evidence.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  To complete the picture, it is
           9         there.  I'll find the number right now.
          10              THE COURT:  Yes, if you can give me that number
          11         right now.
          12              MR. FUGATE:  If you just give me a moment --
          13              MR. DANDAR:  If it is already in, I apologize
          14         for the last comment.
          15              MR. FUGATE:  Well, let me ask somebody to look
          16         for it while I'm going to the next exhibit, if I
          17         may.
          18              May I have permission to go ahead?  What I'm
          19         doing is essentially putting in affidavits.  And I
          20         recognize what your -- what the Court earlier said
          21         this morning, which was you're going to take them
          22         for such benefit as they provide to you, we could
          23         call a witness, but it would, in our judgment,
          24         unduly prolong the proceedings.
          25              This is going to be 286.
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           1              THE COURT:  This renewed petition for removal
           2         of the personal representative has a huge section in
           3         here that is signatures.
           4              MR. FUGATE:  Yes, Judge.  That, as I understand
           5         it from Mr. Pope, was attached as exhibits to
           6         address the issue which I think -- and I preface it
           7         by "think" -- it's been testified to at some point
           8         by Mr. Dandar that the Judge dismissed the earlier
           9         probate petition.
          10              What Judge Greer did -- and I happened to be
          11         there that day -- was say because you don't have a
          12         judgment yet, you have no standing.  And what this
          13         is to do is to go back and -- and we now have
          14         standing, obviously, because of the liability
          15         finding in the Flag breach and obviously the Texas
          16         RTC case, as I understand it.  It just reups all of
          17         the prior pleadings in the new petition.
          18              THE COURT:  I don't think you understand what
          19         I'm saying.  I have no interest at all in all these
          20         pages that deal with the signatures.  It is a huge
          21         amount of records.  I mean, it must be 30 pages
          22         worth of signatures.  It looks like it's all of --
          23              MR. FUGATE:  I think it is handwriting exemplar
          24         evidence that went in.
          25              THE COURT:  All --
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           1              MR. FUGATE:  If you want it with just the
           2         petition --
           3              THE COURT:  All of F and G are to be removed,
           4         madam clerk.  Remove F and G.  It is just too much
           5         stuff.
           6              MR. FUGATE:  That is your copy you have there,
           7         Judge.
           8              THE COURT:  So I'm going to -- I'm going to
           9         remove F and G.  Then at least it is a workable
          10         document.  You can take F and G back and just
          11         note -- maybe I'll take -- I can take the cover
          12         sheet and then I'll just note on my F and G that I
          13         have those removed.  Okay?
          14              MR. FUGATE:  Thank you, Judge.
          15              THE COURT:  All right.
          16              MR. MOXON:  You need a smaller clip, your
          17         Honor?
          18              THE COURT:  Pardon me?
          19              MR. MOXON:  You need a smaller clip for that?
          20              THE COURT:  Yes.
          21              MR. MOXON:  You won't need that huge thing any
          22         more.
          23              MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, the next exhibit -- I
          24         have given the original to the clerk, I hope,
          25         which -- that is going to be Exhibit 286.  I'll give
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           1         the Court a courtesy copy.  I am giving one to
           2         Mr. Dandar.
           3              This is an affidavit of Paul Ortner.  And it is
           4         in rebuttal to the police report that was, I
           5         believe, put into evidence, and at the very least
           6         testified to that Mr. Ortner was interviewed by a
           7         detective of the Clearwater Police Department,
           8         indicating in the interview notes that he said that
           9         David Miscavige was staying at the Ft. Harrison.
          10              If you look --
          11              THE COURT:  You objected to that and I kept it
          12         out.
          13              MR. DANDAR:  That is right, Judge.
          14              THE COURT:  So you can't rebut something you
          15         asked to be removed that I removed.
          16              MR. FUGATE:  Well, if that is out, then
          17         obviously we don't need to introduce this.  It is
          18         just an affidavit saying that is not what he told
          19         the police.  He said he's there, there --
          20              THE COURT:  It is even worse to put on the
          21         record something that you can't even put in.  I
          22         would not have kept it out, it was part of
          23         Mr. Dandar's exhibit, and, frankly, if you want it
          24         in, if Mr. Dandar wants it in, and you want to
          25         introduce that, that is fine.  But you objected and
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           1         kept his out.  So we can't have something to
           2         rebut --
           3              MR. FUGATE:  If it is out, why put anything
           4         else in the record, frankly.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I think the order
           6         we're looking for is Defense 192.
           7              THE COURT:  Okay.
           8              MR. WEINBERG:  If we can just pull Defense 192,
           9         I'm pretty sure that is the one.
          10              THE COURT:  Well, now I have done it.  I have
          11         got the wrong --
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Let me show this to Mr. Dandar
          13         and see if this is the one he's referring to.
          14              THE COURT:  Okay.  Whatever I removed from
          15         the -- from this exhibit, I must have removed the
          16         cover sheet.  This is the lawsuit -- the probate
          17         matter.
          18              Would you look at what I returned to you-all
          19         and see if I took off the front page, like Page 1, I
          20         guess.
          21              MR. FUGATE:  Well, this is the exhibit so he --
          22         you must have the --
          23              THE COURT:  I think what happened was when I
          24         pulled something off -- or else I just put it in
          25         there so I wouldn't be able to tell what it was by
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           1         looking at it because I -- here it is, I have got
           2         it.  It's -- it's misplaced in my materials.  So I
           3         have got it.  Here it is.  Now I have got it.
           4              MR. FUGATE:  And you have the number --
           5              THE COURT:  I don't have the number on it so
           6         tell me again what it is.  It's the renewed petition
           7         for removal?
           8              MR. FUGATE:  I believe it is 2- --
           9              THE CLERK:  285.
          10              MR. FUGATE:  -- 285.
          11              THE COURT:  286 was not admitted.
          12              MR. FUGATE:  286 is not admitted.  287 is --
          13         well, I don't want to swamp you there, either.
          14              THE COURT:  Okay, I'm ready.
          15              MR. FUGATE:  287 --
          16              THE COURT:  You can have this back.  Oh, I
          17         guess I'm keeping those and just showing them not
          18         admitted so I know that I haven't missed something.
          19              Okay.
          20              MR. FUGATE:  287, your Honor, is an affidavit
          21         of Jeffrey Schmidt who you heard testimony about
          22         from Jesse Prince, and comments again from
          23         Mr. Dandar who Mr. Prince indicated told Jesse
          24         Prince that Scientology had broken into his office
          25         and stolen documents from him in London.
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           1              This is an affidavit from Mr. Schmidt that said
           2         he never made such a statement to Mr. Prince and
           3         there was no break-in.  We offer that as 287.
           4              MR. DANDAR:  I object.  This is Bob Minton's
           5         former business partner.  And this is someone who
           6         was attacking a witness on the stand.  That Jeff
           7         Schmidt should be here for cross-examination when
           8         you are going to attack a witness that testified
           9         that directly.  This is not some other kind of
          10         document like some of the other declarations.  This
          11         is actually an impeachment, and that person should
          12         be subject to cross-examination.
          13              THE COURT:  I tend to agree.
          14              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, I offer it as an affidavit.
          15         You can use it for whatever use you find.  It's an
          16         affidavit from the individual.  And the testimony of
          17         Mr. Prince was hearsay.  It is an effort to rebut
          18         that with a sworn affidavit.
          19              THE COURT:  Yes, I think what I have done and
          20         what I have said all along is there will be
          21         affidavits that will be admitted that will be
          22         hearsay affidavits because the people weren't here,
          23         and that I would not accord it the same evidentiary
          24         value as I would somebody who was here and subject
          25         to cross-examination.
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           1              MR. FUGATE:  I understand that.
           2              THE COURT:  So, Mr. Dandar, it is here, it will
           3         be admitted, but it won't be afforded the same value
           4         as somebody who was here and testified.
           5              Well, look, you got a document, a huge
           6         document, that you wanted admitted that some lawyer
           7         testifying that the Scientologists did such and such
           8         and so and so.  This is a one pager, you don't want
           9         that in, and you want your three-inch thing in.
          10              MR. DANDAR:  But what I'm saying, I think the
          11         reason why it is different is because he
          12         specifically attacks testimony of a live witness in
          13         this case.
          14              THE COURT:  What did you think that was for?
          15         If it isn't to say that some of the testimony in
          16         here is either true or not true, what is it for?
          17              MR. DANDAR:  That is for pattern of conduct.
          18         That is -- Mr. Yanny, the attorney for RTC,
          19         testifies about pattern of conduct.
          20              THE COURT:  Mr. Yanny's affidavit is in.  It is
          21         somebody else's affidavit that I never heard of.
          22              MR. DANDAR:  Mr. Cipriano.  That is another
          23         evidence of pattern of conduct attacking the
          24         attorney, which is what they're doing in this case.
          25              THE COURT:  You get yours in, they get theirs
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           1         in.  Your objection is overruled.
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. Dandar says this is the
           3         order, so it is 192, from Texas.
           4              THE COURT:  Okay.
           5              MR. DANDAR:  It is the second-to-the-last page
           6         where they talk about the tactics of RTC.
           7              THE COURT:  Well, I'll have a chance to read
           8         it.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  I'll give this back to the
          10         clerk.
          11              MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, you asked me to bring
          12         the Cipriano affidavit --
          13              THE COURT:  Yes.
          14              MR. MOXON:  -- that withdraws his statements in
          15         the other one.  But if you are not going to be
          16         admitting it --
          17              THE COURT:  No, I am going to be admitting it.
          18         But what I wanted, he said he had withdrawn it, then
          19         reinstated it.  And I wanted to be sure that went
          20         with it.
          21              MR. MOXON:  Here is the affidavit --
          22              THE COURT:  Okay.
          23              MR. MOXON:  -- withdrawing it.  I don't know if
          24         it's marked.  I guess that will be marked as next.
          25              THE COURT:  Did he -- did he later then say it
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           1         was valid?
           2              MR. MOXON:  He didn't go back and say it was
           3         valid, but he made another affidavit which said
           4         similar things, then he had another affidavit that
           5         said that affidavit was false.
           6              But I'm responding to the specific affidavit
           7         that Mr. Dandar attempted to admit.
           8              THE COURT:  Okay.
           9              MR. DANDAR:  Judge, you told him to bring in
          10         all of the affidavits, and he's only bringing in
          11         one.  And there is apparently -- now, instead of one
          12         more, there are two or three more.  I think they
          13         should produce all of them.
          14              MR. MOXON:  This is number 186?
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  2.
          16              MR. MOXON:  286?
          17              MR. DANDAR:  Yes, 286.
          18              THE COURT:  I'm going to allow it.  If you find
          19         another affidavit or something else, Mr. Dandar, you
          20         want me to consider, bring it in.
          21              I understand what he's saying.  He's saying now
          22         there was another affidavit.  So this is to respond
          23         to this affidavit that you have submitted.  So that
          24         will be in.
          25              MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I just don't have access to
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           1         any other affidavits.
           2              THE COURT:  Okay.
           3              MR. DANDAR:  And they apparently have them,
           4         also.  That is why I asked they be produced.
           5              THE COURT:  It is another affidavit.  A
           6         different affidavit.
           7              MR. MOXON:  I'm sorry, I gave you the wrong
           8         number.  This would be 287.  286 was not admitted,
           9         is that correct, Mr. Fugate?
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  What is 286?
          11              MR. DANDAR:  Ortner.  That was not admitted.
          12              MR. MOXON:  I don't want to confuse everybody.
          13              THE COURT:  I have a 287 so I'm assuming this
          14         is 288.
          15              Whatever else you have that is on Cipriano, I
          16         guess we better have it.  So -- so we'll make this
          17         288A.  Just send me whatever else you've got.
          18              MR. FUGATE:  Could we make that whatever --
          19              THE CLERK:  289.
          20              MR. FUGATE:  -- 289, Judge, because I just gave
          21         her another affidavit in between that is 288.
          22              THE COURT:  289A.  Mr. Moxon, I'll expect you
          23         to give me whatever else you have on this fellow.
          24              MR. MOXON:  Okay.
          25              THE CLERK:  It is in evidence?
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           1              THE COURT:  Well, 289A is.  And you should note
           2         we expect at least a B, if not B and C.  And we'll
           3         make sure you get it.  Okay?
           4              THE CLERK:  Okay.  Thank you.
           5              THE COURT:  Well, you make sure you get it.
           6         Okay?
           7              THE CLERK:  Yes.
           8              MR. DANDAR:  What number exhibit is the Jeff
           9         Schmidt letter?
          10              THE COURT:  288, it must be, because --
          11              MR. FUGATE:  Wait a minute, 287, I believe.  Is
          12         that right, madam clerk, the Jeff Schmidt affidavit?
          13              THE COURT:  That is the affidavit.  That is
          14         287?
          15              THE CLERK:  That is correct.
          16              THE COURT:  I never did get 288, whatever it
          17         is.
          18              MR. FUGATE:  I'm about to hand it up, Judge.
          19              THE COURT:  Okay.
          20              MR. FUGATE:  I just got ahead of myself in an
          21         effort to keep my promise to finish up.
          22              Are we ready?
          23              THE COURT:  Ready.
          24              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, during the testimony of
          25         Vaughn Young, and, I believe, another witness
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           1         whose name escapes me, there was -- I know in Vaughn
           2         Young's testimony there was bits of the submission
           3         that was made to the IRS for the tax exemption that
           4         he pulled out and got placed into evidence by
           5         Mr. Dandar.
           6              And at the time I think there was an indication
           7         that if we wanted to complete that submission, we
           8         could.
           9              And I have got an authenticating affidavit,
          10         which would be our next exhibit, from Monique
          11         Yingling, basically that authenticates all of the
          12         documents -- or portions of the documents that are
          13         denoted in there that were provided by her to the
          14         IRS for the exemption in regard --
          15              THE COURT:  I have no idea what you're talking
          16         about.  Whatever Peter Alexander testified about the
          17         IRS, what would that have to do with --
          18              MR. FUGATE:  No, there were portions of this
          19         submission he had taken out --
          20              THE COURT:  Submission?  What are you talking
          21         about, this submission?
          22              MR. FUGATE:  When Mr. Dandar had Vaughn Young
          23         on the stand --
          24              THE COURT:  Okay?
          25              MR. FUGATE:  -- he introduced into evidence
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           1         several pages of a submission that was made to the
           2         IRS.
           3              THE COURT:  Oh.
           4              MR. FUGATE:  And this is the entire submission
           5         for the parts that he had talked about, with an
           6         authenticating affidavit from Monique Yingling.  And
           7         that is going to be self-explanatory.
           8              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, I can clarify what
           9         submission it was because I was involved with
          10         Ms. Yingling.
          11              THE COURT:  Okay.
          12              MR. LIEBERMAN:  It was a submission of
          13         materials, including answers to questions from the
          14         IRS in the Church's applications for tax exemption
          15         which led to the granting of tax exemption in 1993.
          16              THE COURT:  Okay.
          17              MR. LIEBERMAN:  And the submission was made on
          18         behalf of and included in the IRS record of various
          19         churches, including FSO.
          20              THE COURT:  All right.
          21              MR. LIEBERMAN:  The point is this is --
          22         Mr. Young submitted portions --
          23              THE COURT:  I understand.
          24              MR. LIEBERMAN:  It is another portion.
          25              THE COURT:  I just admitted it.
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           1              MR. LIEBERMAN:  I just wanted to make sure you
           2         understood.
           3              THE COURT:  I understand it now.  I'd
           4         forgotten.
           5              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, the next affidavit -- which
           6         would be 290, madam clerk?
           7              THE CLERK:  Yes, it is.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  I have given the original
           9         affidavit to the clerk.  It is an affidavit from Mr.
          10         Moxon that in the body of the affidavit goes through
          11         and specifically rebuts -- it's self-explanatory, I
          12         can either read it to you or give it to you to
          13         read -- the testimony that Mr. Oliver said --
          14         testified to that he met with Mr. Moxon --
          15              THE COURT:  Mr. Moxon was present in this
          16         courtroom.  If Mr. Moxon wanted to testify, he could
          17         have.  I will not receive his affidavit.  He's here
          18         and --
          19              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Well, Judge --
          20              THE COURT:  I don't need an affidavit from
          21         somebody who is sitting in the courtroom, available
          22         to testify.
          23              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, all it is,
          24         Mr. Oliver talked about what Mr. Moxon had asked in
          25         a certain deposition.  All it is is an
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           1         authenticating affidavit of that deposition.
           2              THE COURT:  Oh, okay.
           3              MR. MOXON:  No, it is a bit more than that.
           4              MR. LIEBERMAN:  I'm sorry, I misspoke.
           5              MR. MOXON:  No, Mr. Oliver testified that he
           6         met me at a certain time.  I never met the man in my
           7         life.
           8              THE COURT:  If you want to testify and refute
           9         what somebody else said, you need to testify.  I
          10         just can't have people putting in affidavits, when
          11         they are here, available to be called as witnesses
          12         and cross-examined.
          13              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, then what we'll do --
          14              THE COURT:  It is nothing against Mr. Moxon.
          15         But he's here, he's been sitting here every day.
          16              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, I'm not arguing with that.
          17         What I was going to ask the Court, hopefully we
          18         won't have a break, but if we have a break before we
          19         finish, I'll try to at least line out the portions
          20         that relate to that and go back to the
          21         authenticating part of the deposition and explain
          22         that to you.  But I would like to leave it marked
          23         for now.
          24              THE COURT:  You can leave it marked for now.
          25         It is not in evidence.
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           1              THE CLERK:  Judge, what number is that?
           2              THE COURT:  I don't know.
           3              MR. FUGATE:  It is 290.  Right?
           4              THE CLERK:  All right.
           5              THE COURT:  A lot of these affidavits I'm
           6         letting in because these people aren't here, it's a
           7         long trip, there are lots of reasons why.  They are
           8         fairly peripheral.  And, you know, we'll just let
           9         them in.
          10              But I feel a little differently about somebody
          11         who is here.  Next I'll have an affidavit from
          12         Mr. Dandar, and I'll have one from you and one from
          13         Ms. Greenway.  And, you know, if somebody is here
          14         and can testify, we need their testimony.
          15              MR. FUGATE:  If we can get this stuff in today,
          16         hopefully there won't be any more.
          17              THE COURT:  Okay.
          18              MR. FUGATE:  I'm going to have Mr. Moxon look
          19         at it as far as going to the authentication part.
          20         Let me see where I am next.
          21              The next affidavits are -- actually, I think it
          22         would be better -- I'll tell you what they are and
          23         I'm going to ask to submit them as a composite.
          24              The next number is 291?
          25              THE CLERK:  Yes.
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           1              MR. FUGATE:  What these are, your Honor, are
           2         affidavits from Norman Starkey; Greg Wilhere; Ray
           3         Mithoff; Guillaume Lesevre -- I know I'm butchering
           4         the name, G-U-I-L-L-A-U-M-E, last name
           5         L-E-S-E-V-R-E; Mark Jager; and Mark Ingber,
           6         I-N-G-B-E-R.
           7              These collectively are affidavits, your Honor,
           8         that basically indicate "I am a captain in the Sea
           9         Org and I know that Mr. Miscavige is a captain in
          10         the Sea Org," and they're all at the same rank.
          11              And I would offer those as a composite for
          12         whatever.
          13              THE COURT:  Any objection?
          14              MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  There are two more, apparently.
          16              MR. FUGATE:  Okay, well, let me add to that.
          17         John Napier and Jan McLaughlin.
          18              Judge, what I'll do, to save time, I'll break
          19         these out, give him a copy and give a copy to your
          20         Honor, and ask the clerk mark them as a composite,
          21         rather than take the Court's time.
          22              THE COURT:  All right.
          23              MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, rather than fumble
          24         around, I'll have Mr. Moxon make a submission he was
          25         going to make and get these divided out and give
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           1         them to your Honor and go to my next point so we'll
           2         move it along.
           3              THE COURT:  All right.
           4              MR. DANDAR:  Aren't there more affidavits than
           5         this of Mr. Jager's.
           6              MR. FUGATE:  I said I'll break them out
           7         originally so they can be put together as a
           8         composite.  And I'll give you, marked
           9         chronologically A, B, C, whatever they are, and to
          10         the Court, as well.
          11              MR. DANDAR:  Do you want this one back then?
          12              MR. FUGATE:  No.  You can have it.
          13              MR. DANDAR:  All right.
          14              MR. MOXON:  Madam clerk, the last exhibit was
          15         291, is that correct?
          16              THE CLERK:  That is correct.
          17              MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, I'm just going to enter
          18         several church policies into evidence, if I could.
          19              THE COURT:  All right.
          20              MR. MOXON:  We'll mark as Exhibit 292 HCO
          21         policy letter entitled "Antisocial personality of
          22         the anti-Scientologist."
          23              MR. DANDAR:  What was 291?
          24              THE COURT:  I'm assuming it must be one of
          25         these affidavits.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  It is the package being marked.
           2              MR. DANDAR:  But 290 is Jager, right?
           3              THE COURT:  No, actually Mr. Jager is one of
           4         many that will be 291.  He just showed you an
           5         example, I think.
           6              MR. DANDAR:  I hate to say that.  Then what is
           7         290?
           8              THE COURT:  I don't know because I don't have
           9         it, either.
          10              MR. DANDAR:  Oh.
          11              THE COURT:  I have 289 --
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  Was that the one you didn't
          13         admit is 290?
          14              THE CLERK:  290 is the one, ID only, affidavit
          15         of --
          16              THE COURT:  Right, 290 is Mr. Moxon's affidavit
          17         that will be amended, apparently.
          18              Okay, 292.
          19              MR. MOXON:  The question arose here as to what
          20         a suppressive person is and what one isn't -- is
          21         not.
          22              This issue makes clear there are antisocial
          23         personalities in the world, and that is entirely
          24         different than someone who is in the Church and
          25         attempting to do the steps 8 E to have that status
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           1         changed.  That is 292.
           2              THE COURT:  Okay.
           3              MR. MOXON:  Exhibit 293 is a policy letter
           4         called "Third Dynamic Tech."
           5              Exhibit 294 is a policy -- Scientology policy
           6         directive dated July 15, 1986, revised July 17,
           7         1987.
           8              This Scientology policy directive was issued
           9         after the death of Mr. Hubbard and clarifies the
          10         issues of new policies coming out after that time.
          11              Exhibit 295 is a document entitled "Ron's
          12         Journal" dated 31 December, 1995.
          13              THE COURT:  1985?
          14              MR. MOXON:  Yes, your Honor.
          15              THE COURT:  You said '95, I thought.
          16              MR. MOXON:  I'm sorry, it is Exhibit 295 issued
          17         in 1985.  These Ron's Journals, they are in kind of
          18         basically a form of a letter issued primarily at the
          19         time of -- around the new year, sometimes at other
          20         times.
          21              Exhibit 296 is an HCO policy letter entitled
          22         "Flourish and Prosper."
          23              Exhibit 297 is another HCO policy letter dated
          24         July 12, 1980 R, revised November 5, 1982, entitled
          25         "The Basics of Ethics."
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           1              That was 297, correct?
           2              THE COURT:  Yes.
           3              MR. MOXON:  Exhibit 298 is an HCO policy letter
           4         dated July 9, 1980 R called "Ethics, Justice and the
           5         Dynamics."
           6              MR. DANDAR:  I suppose this is all rebuttal to
           7         something.
           8              THE COURT:  I -- I presume so.  If it is not,
           9         why, it is just making a bigger record.
          10              MR. MOXON:  Your Honor, we'll address these.
          11         Rather than go into a whole argument about them now,
          12         we'll address them in our closing briefs.
          13              THE COURT:  Okay.
          14              MR. DANDAR:  Isn't 298 and 299 the same thing?
          15              THE COURT:  I don't even have a 299.
          16              MR. MOXON:  299 is "The Code of a
          17         Scientologist."  In Scientology, there are several
          18         codes.  There is an auditor's code, and it provides
          19         Scientologists with guidelines with respect to human
          20         rights, justice and social reform issues.
          21              MR. DANDAR:  It is already in evidence.
          22              THE COURT:  Is it?
          23              MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
          24              THE COURT:  Well, I don't know if it is or not
          25         so we'll just get it again.  If it is, we'll have
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           1         two copies of it.
           2              MR. DANDAR:  It happens quite a bit in this
           3         case.
           4              THE COURT:  I think there are a couple of
           5         things we have gotten in evidence a couple of times.
           6              MR. MOXON:  Exhibit Number 300 is called "The
           7         Creed of the Church of Scientology."  This creed was
           8         issued as a succinct statement of Scientology
           9         beliefs.
          10              MR. DANDAR:  I'm sorry, I have already got
          11         this.  Duplicate.
          12              MR. MOXON:  Exhibit 301 is the "Auditor's
          13         Code," which I will explain in greater detail in a
          14         moment.
          15              THE COURT:  I do hope you-all understand that
          16         some of this stuff, just like a lot of other
          17         documents I'm receiving, what weight or what value
          18         they may be to me, if any, we'll just have to wait
          19         and see.
          20              Obviously, a policy letter from L. Ron Hubbard
          21         is one thing.  An auditor's code, I have no idea
          22         where it came from or anything of the sort.
          23              MR. MOXON:  This was also written by L. Ron
          24         Hubbard, your Honor.
          25              THE COURT:  I'm simply saying, if these things
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           1         just come in and I don't even know where they came
           2         from or what they are, they won't have a great deal
           3         of value.  I assume you'll point out what it is you
           4         want to point out at some point in time in your
           5         closing argument.
           6              MR. MOXON:  Let me address the auditor's code
           7         now, because I also have a short training film which
           8         I'm not going to play now but I'll provide to the
           9         Court, it is about ten minutes long.  And it is
          10         called "The Auditor's Code."
          11              THE COURT:  What is the -- what have we had in
          12         this hearing about auditors?
          13              MR. MOXON:  Well, there has been a lot of
          14         allegations with respect to what the auditors would
          15         or would not do.
          16              For example, with Lisa McPherson, the
          17         intentions of auditors in Scientology practices --
          18              THE COURT:  The only thing I know of auditors
          19         in Lisa McPherson is the testimony from the auditors
          20         of the Church of Scientology is she was not capable
          21         of being audited.  That is the only thing I know of
          22         that could possibly be relevant to the wrongful
          23         death.
          24              And to the counterclaim, I probably couldn't
          25         think of anything that would be relevant.
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           1              MR. MOXON:  Well, there has also been testimony
           2         from a number of Mr. Dandar's witnesses which are
           3         generally attacking, I guess, the level of care and
           4         compassion that the auditors in the Church have for
           5         the parishioners.  And this is --
           6              THE COURT:  I don't recall that.  And if it
           7         came in, I wouldn't find it relevant at all to this
           8         hearing.  So I don't know why I need to have those.
           9         I mean, I just don't recall the testimony.  If
          10         you're telling me it is there and you are rebutting
          11         it, I'll go ahead and let it in.
          12              But in truth, I don't know of anything relevant
          13         to this hearing except if somebody said that was a
          14         lie and she was audited four or five times.  I don't
          15         think there has been any such testimony, so I assume
          16         that is true that she wasn't capable of being
          17         audited because she was not well enough.  And --
          18              MR. MOXON:  Well -- I'm sorry.
          19              THE COURT:  And that would be the only
          20         relevance I know of.
          21              But go ahead, if you think this would be
          22         helpful to me to understand --
          23              MR. MOXON:  I think it would be very helpful.
          24         As I say, it's a short video.  If the Court wishes
          25         to see it, we would like to put it in the record.
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           1              It is a code of ethics and conduct for auditors
           2         to provide greater reality of the Churches views
           3         concerning the compassion and care for which
           4         auditors must conduct themselves for the good of the
           5         parishioners, and the basic standards of ethics,
           6         also, for auditors and ministers of the Church.
           7              We'll mark this as Exhibit 302.
           8              THE COURT:  I'm letting this in as something
           9         that would be of interest to me.  I don't think it
          10         has any bearing on this hearing, but --
          11              MR. MOXON:  Very good.
          12              MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I just want to remind you,
          13         there is a policy in evidence that we presented that
          14         says that an unconscious person could be audited.
          15              THE COURT:  Oh.  Okay.  But you haven't
          16         suggested that Lisa McPherson was audited.
          17              MR. DANDAR:  No.  She had no auditing at all.
          18              THE COURT:  Right.
          19              MR. DANDAR:  Well, let me say, there is no
          20         evidence of auditing.
          21              THE COURT:  Right.
          22              MR. MOXON:  There is another CD, this is
          23         actually a lecture from the founder, from L. Ron
          24         Hubbard, entitled, "The Story of Dianetics and
          25         Scientology."
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           1              I would like to admit it as Exhibit 303, which
           2         gives, rather than unusual versions of Scientology
           3         and Dianetics that have been provided by the
           4         plaintiff --
           5              MR. DANDAR:  Do I get copies of the CDs and
           6         videos, I would hope?
           7              MR. MOXON:  Yes.
           8              MR. DANDAR:  And the videos?
           9              MR. MOXON:  Well, on the videos, what I would
          10         like to do with Mr. Dandar, we have a precedent on
          11         this.  If he comes and can see it, I can arrange --
          12         similar to -- remember how he objected to us having
          13         a copy of The Profit?  These are our proprietary
          14         works.  The videos are not sold by the Church.
          15              We're happy to have it in the record and
          16         certainly will make arrangements for Mr. Dandar to
          17         come any time he wants.
          18              I gave him a copy of the CD because this is
          19         publicly available.
          20              THE COURT:  I don't see how you can put it in
          21         the record and not give him a copy.  If it is in the
          22         record, it is a public record.  So if you don't want
          23         to put it in the record, I understand that.  Then I
          24         think you ought to withdraw it from the record.
          25              MR. MOXON:  I have given Mr. Dandar a copy.
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           1              THE COURT:  I don't have one, if you meant for
           2         me to.  I have this.
           3              MR. MOXON:  I can give you an extra.
           4              THE COURT:  Did you give me one?
           5              MR. MOXON:  I made one an exhibit.  I gave it
           6         to the clerk.  But here is a copy for you.
           7              MR. DANDAR:  So there is just one video and one
           8         CD?
           9              Madam clerk, the video is what number?
          10              THE CLERK:  The video is 302.
          11              MR. MOXON:  The CD was a lecture delivered to
          12         Scientologists on the 18th of October, 1958, and
          13         gave essentially an anecdotal account of how
          14         Mr. Hubbard came to write Dianetics and write
          15         Scientology in his own words.
          16              THE COURT:  Once again, I'm going to tell
          17         you-all that when you write your closing argument,
          18         I'm not sure that any of this is relevant.  I'm
          19         letting it in simply because perhaps it has some
          20         educational value and I'm always happy to be
          21         educated.  But the truth of the matter is I don't
          22         know it has any relevance to this hearing.
          23              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Well, your Honor, actually you
          24         may well be right, just like as I argued, I don't
          25         think a lot of the introduction of policies --
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           1              THE COURT:  Right.
           2              MR. LIEBERMAN:  -- was either relevant or
           3         appropriate under the First Amendment.  But we
           4         talked about that and you said, "Well, just in case,
           5         you better get in what you want --"
           6              THE COURT:  Right.
           7              MR. LIEBERMAN:  "-- to sort of explain it.
           8              THE COURT:  I don't want you to spend your
           9         whole closing argument talking about some of these
          10         later things you are submitting because I'm not
          11         sure --
          12              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, we guarantee you
          13         we'll focus on --
          14              THE COURT:  The testimony and the admissions.
          15              MR. LIEBERMAN:  -- relevant --
          16              THE COURT:  It is very hard, once again, for me
          17         to sit and read these to see whether or not they
          18         really rebut anything or not.  If they don't rebut
          19         something, they ought not be coming in.  If they do,
          20         they should.  So I'm letting it all in.
          21              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Right.
          22              THE COURT:  Then later we'll look and see if I
          23         think it does.  And that is really the reason why
          24         this is going so quickly.
          25              MR. LIEBERMAN:  We will have a little section
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           1         that puts this in perspective.  But we also will
           2         probably be arguing, too, that most of it is not
           3         something that you need or even ought be
           4         considering.
           5              THE COURT:  All right.
           6              MR. LIEBERMAN:  But I think it also might be
           7         useful for you to get some greater perspective as to
           8         what this is all about.
           9              THE COURT:  All right.
          10              MR. MOXON:  Next, Exhibit, 303, is actually one
          11         of the few film lectures of L. Ron Hubbard.
          12              Mr. Hubbard gave many lectures, over 1,400
          13         lectures.  Very few of them were filmed.  But this
          14         one was filmed.  It is called "The Classification
          15         and Gradation Film."  And it represents the release
          16         of the first Scientology grade chart.
          17              You have heard testimony about the bridge,
          18         and -- the left side of the bridge of the audit
          19         training, and the right side as to auditing.
          20              THE COURT:  Yes.
          21              MR. MOXON:  Well, this film is about the
          22         release of the gradation chart.  And it was a
          23         lecture given in 1965.  I seem to only have one copy
          24         with me but I'll provide other copies.
          25              THE COURT:  All right.
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           1              MR. MOXON:  It is 30 minutes long.
           2              THE COURT:  See, in other words, what you-all
           3         have been doing, you are giving the original to the
           4         clerk and you are giving me my copy.  Anything I
           5         have got doesn't go to the clerk.
           6              MR. MOXON:  That is right.
           7              THE COURT:  So if this is what you are
           8         introducing, it better be to the clerk.
           9              MR. DANDAR:  Isn't the CD that Number 303?
          10              THE CLERK:  304.
          11              MR. MOXON:  I'm sorry, it is 304.
          12              MR. DANDAR:  What is --
          13              MR. MOXON:  The CD is 303.  "Classification and
          14         Gradation" is 304.
          15              MR. DANDAR:  Got it.
          16              THE COURT:  If you don't have copies, how are
          17         you going to get copies?  I don't want something in
          18         the record -- in the official record that either
          19         Mr. Dandar or I don't have copies of.
          20              MR. MOXON:  We'll have additional copies
          21         brought down for you and Mr. Dandar.  Or Mr. Dandar
          22         can come see this one.
          23              MR. DANDAR:  No.  I would like to have my own
          24         copy.
          25              THE COURT:  If you are going to introduce it in
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           1         the public record, that everything in here is the
           2         public record, you'll have to give him a copy of it.
           3              MR. MOXON:  By the way, your Honor, can we have
           4         an agreement on the record that Mr. Dandar won't be
           5         putting this on the Internet or giving it out to
           6         other people?  This is proprietary work that
           7         we're --
           8              THE COURT:  I would think that anything that
           9         has been admitted in this hearing you should be
          10         careful of.  Mr. Dandar said he doesn't put stuff on
          11         the Internet.  It seems to appear on the Internet.
          12         If you say you don't put it out on the Internet, I
          13         don't know who is putting stuff out on the Internet.
          14              MR. DANDAR:  You know, I had someone --
          15              THE COURT:  I could tell you-all I don't really
          16         honestly think that things that -- like I said, I
          17         don't have a real objection to what we do in here
          18         going out on the public airways.  I'm not sure that
          19         is the purpose, so I don't know what the purpose is.
          20         I don't know whether it is to make fun of what we're
          21         doing or to criticize what we're doing, or perhaps
          22         it is just educational.  If that is the case, it is
          23         fine.  I don't know, if it is part of the public
          24         record, if I can ask him not to put it out or
          25         anything of the sort.
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           1              I would anticipate you give him a copy of it.
           2         If it is something proprietary, I will -- if I can
           3         go to a book store and buy this and he gets a copy
           4         of it, he can use it.
           5              MR. MOXON:  The CD is one thing.  The film is
           6         not.  It is not sold in churches, it is made
           7         available to members to see but not sold.
           8              THE COURT:  Then I'll ask him not to use it
           9         outside of this hearing.
          10              MR. DANDAR:  Very well.
          11              THE COURT:  This hearing meaning this case.  I
          12         think I have done that with some things with
          13         you-all, I have said some of the E-Mails from LMT
          14         and the videos from LMT, I said get my permission to
          15         use it outside of this case.  That includes this
          16         hearing, any trial, if any, any depositions, you
          17         know, this whole case.
          18              MR. MOXON:  And --
          19              THE COURT:  So the videos, Mr. Dandar, you are
          20         not to -- you can get me an order if you like, but
          21         it is on the record here.
          22              MR. DANDAR:  It is on the record.
          23              THE COURT:  You are not to distribute it or use
          24         it outside of this case without getting my
          25         permission.
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           1              MR. DANDAR:  That is fine.
           2              MR. MOXON:  Thank you.  Just to put this film
           3         in perspective, as I say, it was a lecture delivered
           4         in 1965 by Mr. Hubbard.  And as his research
           5         continued, later developments were represented on
           6         the grade charts.
           7              This grade chart that you'll see on the film is
           8         a little bit different than the ones that exist
           9         today as higher levels were developed by
          10         Mr. Hubbard.
          11              However, the principles of the grade chart that
          12         formed the foundation of the bridge are the same
          13         today and as they will be for all time.  It was a
          14         delivered in a chapel in Saint Hill in Sussex to
          15         students of the special briefing course, which is
          16         the biggest course for training auditors in
          17         Scientology.  And that course comprised over 500
          18         lectures.  And I'll give you a little more reality
          19         on that when I show you what is up against the wall.
          20              The last film I want to put in evidence is
          21         Number 305.  And this is entitled "Advice to Persons
          22         Being Audited" film.
          23              So this is essentially an introductory film --
          24              THE COURT:  I'm missing two things here.  Maybe
          25         I'm not.  What is the CD?  Is that 303, madam clerk?
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           1              THE CLERK:  Yes, ma'am, it is.
           2              THE COURT:  Then I'm just missing the one you
           3         are going to supply.  Right?
           4              MR. MOXON:  That is correct.
           5              THE COURT:  All right.
           6              MR. MOXON:  This film, "Advice to Persons Being
           7         Audited" is also written by L. Ron Hubbard.  And its
           8         purpose is to provide basic understanding of
           9         auditing for persons just beginning.
          10              THE COURT:  All right.
          11              MR. MOXON:  In that regard it provides basic
          12         grounding as to what an auditing session is and
          13         basic terms that the Court has heard and may help
          14         the Court in understanding some of what you heard.
          15         It also expresses the Church's view on drugs in
          16         relationship to progress in Scientology that are
          17         explained here.
          18              And also the E-meter is explained, what an
          19         auditing session looks like, and you'll actually see
          20         an auditing session.
          21              THE COURT:  All right.
          22              MR. MOXON:  It is only ten minutes long.
          23              Now, I also have a book called "The Scientology
          24         Handbook."  And this is entirely based on the works
          25         of L. Ron Hubbard.
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           1              I don't think I'll put this in the record per
           2         se.  But I think it would be helpful to the Court
           3         and I'll certainly make a copy available to
           4         Mr. Dandar.  It is so large.
           5              But this has a number of the issues that the
           6         Court has heard about, and which will explain some
           7         things from the perspective of the Church, that the
           8         Court can understand the Church's viewpoints on
           9         these issues.  And I have tabbed several points in
          10         the book that would be helpful.
          11              THE COURT:  All right.
          12              MR. MOXON:  And the points I have tabbed --
          13         this is heavy --
          14              THE COURT:  It is heavy.  Okay.
          15              MR. MOXON:  -- includes the fundamentals of
          16         Scientology, a description of the bridge, as
          17         witnesses have discussed the auditing and training
          18         sides of the bridge, the goal of man and dynamics,
          19         you heard quite a bit about the dynamics, several
          20         witnesses addressed this, the eight dynamics of
          21         existence.
          22              THE COURT:  Right.
          23              MR. MOXON:  I also tabbed a section called
          24         "Determining Optimum Solutions" which goes to the
          25         issue of the greatest good.
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           1              THE COURT:  Greatest good for the greatest
           2         number?
           3              MR. MOXON:  That is right.
           4              I have also tabbed a section on --
           5              THE COURT:  That is the components of
           6         understanding?
           7              MR. MOXON:  It is right before that.
           8              THE COURT:  Okay.
           9              MR. MOXON:  But --
          10              THE COURT:  All right, go ahead.  I'll assume
          11         you have tabbed these.  Go ahead.
          12              MR. DANDAR:  I need to interrupt a second.  I'm
          13         going to get a copy of the same thing the Judge has,
          14         I'll have it tabbed in the same places, correct?
          15              MR. MOXON:  Sure.
          16              MR. DANDAR:  Today?
          17              MR. MOXON:  Sure.
          18              MR. DANDAR:  All right.
          19              MR. MOXON:  And this includes the Scientology
          20         elements of affinity, reality and communication.
          21              And some witnesses have testified that they are
          22         kind of a twisted version, their description of
          23         reality.  So we provide to the Court what these
          24         issues of affinity, reality and communication really
          25         are in Scientology.
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           1              And there is also a small section tabbed in
           2         there on the tone scale which is addressed in the
           3         book "Science of Survival," which a couple witnesses
           4         talk about.
           5              The last three tabs there are on ethics.  One
           6         is on integrity and honesty, including the use of
           7         OWs, overts and withholds, and writing them up, and
           8         why it is done, and how Scientologists believe it is
           9         helpful to them; indeed, necessary.
          10              There is a little section on Scientology
          11         ethics.
          12              The last section there that I tabbed is on
          13         suppressive persons, PTS's.
          14              THE COURT:  All right.
          15              MR. MOXON:  Now I would like to give you a
          16         short tour of this library.
          17              THE COURT:  Okay.
          18              MR. MOXON:  First there are -- all these
          19         binders --
          20              THE COURT:  What number is this book?
          21              MR. MOXON:  I haven't marked it as an exhibit,
          22         your Honor.
          23              THE COURT:  This is just for me?
          24              MR. MOXON:  Yes.
          25              THE COURT:  And Mr. Dandar will get a copy?
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           1              MR. MOXON:  That is right.
           2              THE COURT:  All right.
           3              MR. MOXON:  All of these -- this huge table
           4         full here of binders consist of --
           5              THE COURT:  Did you-all take a picture of this?
           6              MR. MOXON:  Yes, we did.
           7              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes, we did.
           8              MR. MOXON:  It is on its way down.
           9              MR. DANDAR:  I hope I get a color copy of that
          10         because I need some momentos.  I really -- I saw the
          11         guy do it.  I was very impressed with his equipment
          12         that he was putting up, very professional.
          13              MR. MOXON:  We'll make sure Mr. Dandar has some
          14         momentos of this hearing.
          15              THE COURT:  All right.
          16              MR. MOXON:  These are taped lectures that come
          17         in this form.
          18              This first one I handed you is -- happens to be
          19         from the Saint Hill special briefing course, which
          20         is the largest course in Scientology.  These taped
          21         lectures in cassette form represent the recorded
          22         path of Mr. Hubbard's research and development of
          23         Scientology and Dianetics.
          24              And initially it was only through the recorded
          25         medium that Mr. Hubbard made most of the works of
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           1         Scientology and practices of Scientology known to
           2         Scientologists around the world, because in earlier
           3         days their organization didn't really exist.  And he
           4         traveled the world and gave lectures.
           5              Therefore, Scientology was taught by
           6         Mr. Hubbard through this form by personally
           7         instructing students and making these lectures, and
           8         then the lectures were then made available to
           9         students around the world.
          10              The vast majority of these lectures have only
          11         been released in very recent years.  Most were done
          12         in the '50s and '60s.  And the project has been
          13         going since 1984 to produce further lectures.
          14              THE COURT:  That is the bottom shelf?
          15              MR. MOXON:  From here to here (indicating) is
          16         what has been released so far, plus -- plus these.
          17         Each one of these is filled with cassettes like you
          18         have seen.  They'll be made into CDs at some point.
          19              THE COURT:  Is this the same thing I saw a copy
          20         of one that was -- not a copy, an actual course that
          21         was -- Mr. Dandar had one?
          22              MR. MOXON:  No.  But I will show you an example
          23         of what he was showing you.
          24              THE COURT:  Okay.
          25              MR. MOXON:  He held up something called
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           1         PTS/SP -- a course book like this.
           2              THE COURT:  Yes.
           3              MR. MOXON:  But these are just binders of taped
           4         lectures that are company courses.  And there are
           5         1,418 recorded lectures of L. Ron Hubbard, if you
           6         can imagine.  It was a huge body of work, and many
           7         are still not -- still not published.  There are
           8         about 600 that haven't been released.  But I just
           9         wanted to give you some reality on that, Judge.
          10              THE COURT:  All right.
          11              MR. MOXON:  And on this small table here are
          12         books.  And these are -- are considered the basic
          13         books of Scientology.  They represent the foundation
          14         of Scientology and Dianetics.
          15              This book here is the first -- well, one of the
          16         first books written.  This is the one that really
          17         kicked off the main body of the organization in
          18         1950, "Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental
          19         Health."
          20              And as most of the lectures couldn't be made
          21         broadly, these books were published, mostly --
          22         mostly all in the '50s.  And they provide basically
          23         a summary of Scientology works and Dianetics works.
          24              As you can see, there are quite a few of them.
          25              THE COURT:  Okay.
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           1              MR. MOXON:  Now the volumes.  Here we have
           2         these green volumes.  You have heard about green
           3         volumes and red volumes?
           4              THE COURT:  Yes.
           5              MR. MOXON:  Green volumes are the
           6         administrative technology of Scientology.  And these
           7         green volumes have all of the policy letters written
           8         by Mr. Hubbard.
           9              In the auditing technology, that could be
          10         considered what is known in Scientology as the first
          11         dynamic, that is, of self, survival of an
          12         individual.  So that -- this concerns auditing.
          13              But the green volumes concern what is known in
          14         Scientology as the third dynamic or groups, and how
          15         a group is organized and so -- so it can survive
          16         better.
          17              The dynamics concern survival, survival in the
          18         first dynamic, survival in the third dynamic of an
          19         organization or a group.
          20              Now, the red volumes are all the different
          21         technical bulletins.  So when you have seen
          22         something that says "HCO policy letter," that is
          23         these green volumes.  Red volumes are all the
          24         technical bulletins and kind of more generically
          25         called the tech of Scientology.  And these begin in
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           1         chronological order starting in 1950, and go up
           2         through the years.
           3              To give you an example here --
           4              THE COURT:  Okay.
           5              MR. MOXON:  -- this is the first volume
           6         starting in 1950, even before the Church of
           7         Scientology itself was formed as an entity.
           8              When Mr. Hubbard passed away, he left behind a
           9         number of writings to be released at a future date
          10         when certain requirements were met.
          11              For example, there is a new building under
          12         construction in Clearwater, you may have driven by
          13         it, across the street from the Ft. Harrison.
          14              THE COURT:  Right.
          15              MR. MOXON:  Well, that concerns a rundown
          16         written by Mr. Hubbard called "Super Power."  And at
          17         the time that was put together, the physical needs
          18         for delivering super power wasn't developed.  And
          19         that is being developed now so that this new
          20         rundown, super power, can be delivered.
          21              THE COURT:  I don't understand that, new
          22         rundown, you mean like a new auditing, like the
          23         introspection rundown?
          24              MR. MOXON:  Precisely.
          25              THE COURT:  So a super power rundown would be
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           1         an auditing process?
           2              MR. MOXON:  That is right.
           3              THE COURT:  I don't see what it has to do with
           4         the building, I guess.
           5              MR. MOXON:  I just gave you that as an example.
           6         There is a building that will be delivering that.
           7         But there are a number of works by Mr. Hubbard and
           8         notes and lectures as to -- as to new technology.
           9         So some new technology comes out based solely and
          10         strictly on the books of L. Ron Hubbard in some of
          11         these bulletins.
          12              THE COURT:  What you mean, that rundown will be
          13         offered in the new building?
          14              MR. MOXON:  That is right.  But this technology
          15         was -- evolved and refined throughout the years.
          16         And in some top training courses, in fact, an
          17         auditor would be required to read from the beginning
          18         to the end the entire evolution of Scientology
          19         auditing technology in the books you have in your
          20         hand right now.
          21              THE COURT:  Where would it be -- I was looking
          22         in this, I didn't know if this is where I would find
          23         it or not.  But where would it be in the books if I
          24         wanted to see -- not if I wanted to see -- but if I
          25         wanted to see like Policy Letter Number 50?  Are
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           1         they numbered in one of those -- in the greens?  Or
           2         reds?  Or --
           3              MR. MOXON:  Well, here, let me show you this.
           4              THE COURT:  Because I know the reds don't seem
           5         to have any --
           6              MR. MOXON:  In each book -- I'll hand to you a
           7         policy book -- if you look in the front, there is,
           8         of course, a table of contents.
           9              THE COURT:  Oh, okay.  I see.
          10              MR. MOXON:  And in the back there is an index.
          11         Now, these are separated by each different --
          12              THE COURT:  This is what I was looking for.
          13              MR. MOXON:  Okay.
          14              THE COURT:  In other words, this would have --
          15         this is what I have been seeing, just one after the
          16         other.  So these would all be found in some sort of
          17         bound volume?
          18              MR. MOXON:  Absolutely.  These are the actual
          19         policies of the Church.  And there is -- here I'm
          20         showing you a policy index.
          21              THE COURT:  Yes.
          22              MR. MOXON:  So if you were to look up some
          23         issue, if you wanted to know about --
          24              THE COURT:  Introspection rundown.
          25              MR. MOXON:  Well, that would be in the red
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           1         volumes.
           2              THE COURT:  All right.
           3              MR. MOXON:  In fact, I'll show you that.  Let
           4         me show you that.
           5              THE COURT:  All right.
           6              MR. MOXON:  This is -- this is a course pack,
           7         your Honor, for the introspection rundown.  And in
           8         the introspection rundown course pack, it -- it
           9         selects from the works of L. Ron Hubbard, from his
          10         technical bulletins, various matters that a student
          11         needs -- student auditor needs or auditor needs to
          12         be trained to be able to deliver the introspection
          13         rundown.
          14              And if you -- look at the first tab, if you
          15         would.
          16              THE COURT:  Okay.
          17              MR. MOXON:  There is an issue called "Handling
          18         the psychotic."
          19              THE COURT:  Yes.
          20              MR. MOXON:  And this, again, will show the
          21         evolution of Mr. Hubbard's thought in how to develop
          22         ultimately leading to the introspection rundown.
          23              And I tabbed here in this book in front of you
          24         the same issue.  All of the issues that you will
          25         find in the course packs will be in these bulletins.
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           1         "Handling the psychotic" then would appear in this
           2         first volume of the technical bulletins, the same
           3         issue.
           4              THE COURT:  Volume 1, Number 6.  Okay.
           5              MR. MOXON:  And the same would be true as -- as
           6         an auditor is trained to read these various issues
           7         written by the founder concerning how one would
           8         handle someone who has the condition that is
           9         displayed -- for someone who needs an introspection
          10         rundown, in psychotics or psychosis, and eventually
          11         as you go through the years in this, you'll find you
          12         come up to the actual introspection rundown, the
          13         technical breakthrough of 1973.
          14              THE COURT:  Who would take this, the case
          15         supervisor?
          16              MR. MOXON:  Well, a case supervisor would study
          17         it.  But you have to be at a certain level to even
          18         do this course.  You'll see in the classification
          19         and gradation film there is -- in fact, I can show
          20         you in here.
          21              THE COURT:  I guess an auditor would need to
          22         know this, wouldn't he?
          23              MR. MOXON:  An auditor in training.  You would
          24         have to be at a certain pretty high level that we
          25         would call a Class 5 auditor to even be able to do
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           1         it.
           2              I'm showing you here in the handbook a copy of
           3         grade chart, gradation chart, also known as the
           4         bridge.  And in order to do this course you have to
           5         be trained up here to a level of Class 5.  And once
           6         you are at that level, you have done all of the
           7         preliminary training levels, so you can do -- the
           8         basic Scientology auditing, then you can do a
           9         specialty course like this to be --
          10              THE COURT:  So you just don't go in the first
          11         day you are -- you joined the Church and say, "I
          12         want to take this course"?
          13              MR. MOXON:  Lord, no.  You have to be well
          14         trained in Scientology.  Scientology auditors are
          15         very well trained.
          16              But let me show you this one, this issue.  I
          17         pulled out Volume 10 of the technical bulletins
          18         which in chronological order will have this first
          19         issue of the introspection rundown.  You remember
          20         there were some witnesses that said, "Well, we don't
          21         know, we haven't heard of the introspection
          22         rundown."
          23              Well, of course it is all right there in the
          24         volumes.  They are all in chronological order, and
          25         these are available to all Scientologists.  And, in
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           1         fact, all Scientologists are encouraged to purchase
           2         these volumes for their own study, as well as
           3         training by auditors.
           4              And one of these booklets here, this real big
           5         one of the technical volumes, is auditing rundowns.
           6         And this one -- all of the various rundowns of
           7         Scientology are included.  And introspection rundown
           8         is also included here.  The same issue.
           9              THE COURT:  So these are available to people to
          10         purchase or --
          11              MR. MOXON:  Sure.
          12              THE COURT:  Okay.
          13              MR. MOXON:  Absolutely.  Now, to be trained to
          14         deliver it, you, of course, have to be a Scientology
          15         minister.
          16              THE COURT:  Sure.
          17              MR. MOXON:  You have to have the prerequisites
          18         to deliver it and deliver it competently.
          19              THE COURT:  Okay.
          20              MR. MOXON:  We'll mark the introspection
          21         rundown, actually, as an exhibit, your Honor.
          22              THE COURT:  All right.
          23              MR. MOXON:  That would be next Exhibit --
          24              MR. DANDAR:  306.
          25              MR. MOXON:  306?
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           1              THE COURT:  That is this one right here?
           2              MR. MOXON:  Yes.  The course pack of the
           3         introspection rundown.
           4              MR. DANDAR:  Do you have a copy for me?
           5              MR. MOXON:  Yes.  Yes.
           6              THE COURT:  I'll give you back the red book.
           7              MR. MOXON:  It is good exercise, hauling these
           8         books.
           9              THE COURT:  Okay.  What number is this?
          10              MR. MOXON:  That is --
          11              MR. DANDAR:  Can't I get the same kind the
          12         Court gets?
          13              THE COURT:  Oh, Mr. Dandar.  Put it in your
          14         own -- put it in your own --
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  The last one was 306.
          16              MR. MOXON:  306 is the introspection rundown.
          17              THE COURT:  Did you get one, madam clerk?
          18              THE CLERK:  No, Judge.
          19              THE COURT:  You want me to give her this after
          20         I'm done with it?
          21              MR. MOXON:  Yes.
          22              Now, there is another group of books here,
          23         these blue books --
          24              THE COURT:  I'll tell you what, do you have a
          25         copy like that?  If you do -- sometimes I like to
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           1         make notes on stuff.  And I hate to make notes on
           2         something that might become an original.  So --
           3              MR. MOXON:  That one is yours.  I have given
           4         the clerk the good copy.
           5              THE COURT:  So I'll keep this.  I'll keep one
           6         in the notebook.  And the number -- you don't mind
           7         if I write on this?
           8              MR. MOXON:  That is yours, your Honor.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  306.
          10              THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.
          11              MR. MOXON:  All right, next stop on the tour is
          12         the research and discovery series.  Now, these books
          13         represent transcripts of Mr. Hubbard's lectures.
          14              Obviously it is easier to read, sometimes, a
          15         transcript than this book of words in these
          16         lectures.  But to date only 15 of these have been
          17         made available.  And the Church is still
          18         transcribing lectures.  Some of the tape-recorded
          19         lectures which were made as much as 50 years ago
          20         have -- unfortunately, they were original copies,
          21         they have deteriorated so much that the tapes are
          22         very difficult to hear.  And so everything is being
          23         transcribed in a -- in a transcription form.
          24              THE COURT:  What did Mr. Miscavige mean in his
          25         New Year's speech when he indicated that everything
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           1         has been now put on plates and all of the plates
           2         were in vaults and they could withstand up to atomic
           3         bomb force?  Would this be the plates that make up
           4         printings of these books?
           5              MR. MOXON:  Actually, they were put in a
           6         different form.  As you know, Scientologists believe
           7         we're going to be here a long time; no matter what
           8         happens to this world, there is going to be
           9         Scientology in the future, even if there is an
          10         atomic war.
          11              There are plates that are put together in a
          12         form, like in a titanic form, so regardless of what
          13         happens in the future of our society, at some point
          14         the works of Mr. Hubbard will still be available.
          15              THE COURT:  So the plates are actually plates
          16         where you could run off the books?
          17              MR. MOXON:  Sure.  That is right.
          18              THE COURT:  Okay.
          19              MR. MOXON:  There is another thing.  We
          20         mentioned this in another hearing, "Background and
          21         Ceremonies" book.
          22              THE COURT:  Yes, I have that.  I have that.
          23         That was given to me in this hearing or -- mine has
          24         gold on it.
          25              MR. MOXON:  Oh, it does?  That is a nice one.
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           1              THE COURT:  Is there another one that has gold
           2         on it?
           3              MR. MOXON:  No.
           4              THE COURT:  I have one that looks like this,
           5         and I thought it had gold leaf on it.
           6              MR. MOXON:  Well, this book has been for
           7         marriage ceremonies, ordinations, funeral
           8         ceremonies.
           9              THE COURT:  This is it.  I have this.
          10              MR. MOXON:  It also has a number of sermons,
          11         sermons delivered to groups.  So this is essentially
          12         a book for delivery of Scientology services to
          13         groups, and it includes group auditing from the
          14         actual sermons themselves.  But it's a compilation
          15         taken from the books and reported lectures of
          16         Mr. Hubbard.
          17              THE COURT:  Mr. Dandar, when I indicate to you
          18         I have this, this is not that anybody has given this
          19         to me in some ex parte fashion.
          20              When I had the criminal case, certain books
          21         were provided with tabs because of certain
          22         references being referred to.  And, quite frankly,
          23         once I had -- which I had for a long time.  And I
          24         had all kinds of boxes for a long time.  And I think
          25         by the time I finally got rid of all of the boxes, I
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           1         had become involved in the civil case.  So I just
           2         thought, "Well, I'll keep the books because I bet
           3         I'll have them referred to again."  And, you know
           4         what, sure enough, I have indeed.  So I have that
           5         book.
           6              MR. MOXON:  The last book I want to show you is
           7         a book --
           8              THE COURT:  I have this one.
           9              MR. MOXON:  Good.  This is "What is
          10         Scientology."
          11              THE COURT:  "What is Scientology."  This is one
          12         of the ones I have -- the other one I have.  And the
          13         other one I have like this is tabbed, but I'm sure
          14         it is tabbed with things that Mr. Fugate and -- were
          15         you on that, Sandy?
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, I was.
          17              THE COURT:  -- wanted me to see in the criminal
          18         case.  But I do have this.
          19              MR. MOXON:  This book is a companion to the
          20         "Scientology Handbook."  The "Scientology Handbook"
          21         I think includes kind of a "how to" on a lot of the
          22         issues and general concepts and doctrines of
          23         Scientology.
          24              And "What is Scientology book is an
          25         encyclopedic reference on Scientology.  It has been
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           1         compiled in exact accordance with Mr. Hubbard's
           2         instructions, and it includes statistical figures
           3         showing growth of the Church, new churches.  And it
           4         is periodically updated to reflect expansion, but
           5         otherwise the content remains unchanged.
           6              THE COURT:  Okay.
           7              MR. MOXON:  You have a copy of that?
           8              THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm just pretty sure I have
           9         this.  Yes, I do.
          10              MR. MOXON:  Well, that is the end of my tour.
          11              THE COURT:  Now I know what it is.  This was
          12         given to me in the criminal case.  I didn't know
          13         what the front even meant.  I presume that is the
          14         bridge?
          15              MR. MOXON:  Exactly right.
          16              THE COURT:  I did not know that then.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  We should have done a tour back
          18         then.
          19              MR. MOXON:  Any questions, your Honor?
          20              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Probably if that would have
          21         continued, you would have gotten the tour.
          22         Fortunately --
          23              THE COURT:  Yes, if the case continued, I
          24         probably would have been through the books.
          25              MR. MOXON:  That --
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           1              THE COURT:  No, I have no questions.  Thank
           2         you.  I did have the one question and I think you
           3         have answered it.
           4              MR. MOXON:  Thank you.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  So we would offer 292 through
           6         306.
           7              THE COURT:  All right.  Those are the Church
           8         policy letters and some --
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Those other things.  I think
          10         that is where we are, madam clerk, 306?
          11              THE CLERK:  That is correct.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
          13              THE COURT:  All right.
          14              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, thank you for your
          15         indulgence.
          16              THE COURT:  Yes.  I think this one was not
          17         meant to be given to me -- oh, yes, that one was.
          18         That is tabbed.
          19              MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
          20              THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  That I did not have.
          21              It is ten until three.  Shall we break now for
          22         the afternoon break, or --
          23              MR. FUGATE:  Let me give you this and that will
          24         complete this.  This is 291, which is the composite
          25         exhibit, and what I did is it is A through H.  Each
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           1         individual affidavit I marked at the bottom.  You
           2         can put your number on.  I'll give it to Mr. Dandar.
           3         And they're all virtually the same, Judge.
           4              And they are affidavits of various captains
           5         within the Sea Org, and they basically state under
           6         oath that to their knowledge there has never been a
           7         position known as the captain of the Sea Org, and
           8         they tell you how long they have been in for that
           9         affidavit -- for each individual purpose.
          10              And they indicate that they know Mr. Miscavige
          11         to be a captain, as they are, and that they have
          12         always known him or referred to him as chairman of
          13         the board of RTC.
          14              And each one is identical.  It is put in for
          15         the purpose of rebuttal of that.
          16              I'm now giving Mr. Dandar one that is A through
          17         H.  Each one is individually marked.  And with that
          18         I move it into evidence.
          19              And it is time for a break.
          20              THE COURT:  All right.  The number of this,
          21         again, was?
          22              MR. FUGATE:  291, madam clerk?
          23              THE CLERK:  Yes, 291.
          24              MR. FUGATE:  A through H.
          25              THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  We'll be in
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           1         recess for fifteen minutes.
           2              MR. FUGATE:  Thank you, Judge.
           3                (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
           4              ______________________________________
           5              THE COURT:  One of the things that I'd gotten
           6         today, a courtesy copy of, was noticing of filing of
           7         Stacy Brooks' third affidavit.  Is that going to be
           8         introduced?
           9              MR. FUGATE:  I haven't seen it, but I suppose
          10         if that is what your Honor said, if that is the one
          11         that goes through and addresses her affidavit, I
          12         think you indicated Mr. McGowan should file that
          13         before the end of the proceedings, but I haven't
          14         seen it so --
          15              THE COURT:  All right.  It is a notice of
          16         filing and it's -- it is, "Ms. Brooks, through her
          17         counsel, files a third copy of her affidavit
          18         pursuant to the request of the Court.  This copy
          19         will be replaced by the sworn original when it is
          20         received."  And then it is signed, I believe.  This
          21         is Mr. McGowan so obviously he's gotten -- it is --
          22         a faxed copy and he's going to file the original
          23         when he gets it.
          24              MR. FUGATE:  Should we make it a court exhibit
          25         or --
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  We can make it one of our
           2         exhibits.  That is fine.
           3              THE COURT:  Yes, I think it probably should be.
           4         I'm sure it is in response to something I requested.
           5         This is my copy.  This is all I have got.  There is
           6         a certificate of service that says that this was
           7         sent to -- let's see, this would be the defendant's
           8         lawyers, Mr. Dandar -- well, just a slew of lawyers,
           9         Mr. Lirot, Mr. Howie -- I mean, it looks like
          10         everybody has been sent a copy of it and this is my
          11         copy.
          12              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm trying to look at my list
          13         here.  Have -- did we mark Mr. Minton's other
          14         affidavits as exhibits or did we just --
          15              THE COURT:  I don't know.
          16              MR. WEINBERG:  -- all agree since they were
          17         filed they were part of the record?
          18              THE COURT:  I can't tell you that.
          19              MR. FUGATE:  Well, Judge, let me make a
          20         suggestion as a housekeeping matter, when we get to
          21         the end we'll figure that out, if they are marked as
          22         numbers we'll mark that the last number because
          23         obviously I don't have one to give to Mr. Dandar and
          24         vice versa.
          25              THE COURT:  Right.  I would like to make it a
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           1         number if at all possible just so when we refer to
           2         it -- there are so many affidavits, for example, of
           3         Ms. Brooks.
           4              MR. FUGATE:  Right, well --
           5              THE COURT:  Most of the affidavits have
           6         numbers.
           7              MR. FUGATE:  Well, I just had given to the
           8         clerk some things to premark and I think the next
           9         available number would be 311.
          10              THE CLERK:  Yes.
          11              MR. FUGATE:  Could we mark it 311 then?
          12              THE COURT:  Yes.
          13              MR. FUGATE:  Can somebody keep track of that
          14         for me because the sands of time are running out of
          15         the hour glass here, Judge.
          16              THE COURT:  I am sure the original will be
          17         filed in the court file, so this may not be the best
          18         thing to do, but it just seems to me --
          19              MR. FUGATE:  Give it a number.
          20              THE COURT:  -- give it a number.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  It's a copy of a sworn
          22         affidavit, though, right?
          23              THE COURT:  It's a copy of a sworn affidavit.
          24              MR. WEINBERG:  I think just give it a number
          25         and we'll offer it as our Exhibit Number 311.
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           1              THE COURT:  Okay.
           2              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, while we're on the
           3         housekeeping matters, the box next to the clerk is
           4         videos of all of the depositions -- video excerpts
           5         that we've played throughout the hearing.  We're
           6         going to mark it as Composite 307.
           7              THE COURT:  All right --
           8              MR. FUGATE:  And rather than take your time in
           9         this proceeding, we'll come up with some agreement
          10         like we did before in the other hearings as to how
          11         we identify them, A, B, C, D, so that the record is
          12         complete.  But what I'm offering to you as 307 is
          13         videos of all of the clips that we played, and we've
          14         given Mr. Dandar a box of all of the clips --
          15              THE COURT:  Okay.
          16              MR. FUGATE:  -- as well.
          17              MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I was told about this Stacy
          18         Brooks affidavit this morning from my office.  She's
          19         trying to change her testimony at this hearing.  I
          20         don't have a chance to cross-examine her on that new
          21         affidavit so I would ask you not to consider it.
          22              THE COURT:  Well, it's -- I think what we did,
          23         we meaning me, I think what I did was I asked her to
          24         go through her affidavits and indicate whether there
          25         was anything she believed in her affidavits that was
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           1         incorrect.  I don't know what this is myself.  I
           2         haven't read it.  I saw it at noon and I meant to
           3         bring it in at noon.  I just forgot.  I saw it again
           4         during the break and I brought it in.  It says
           5         received July 18, is that today?
           6              MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
           7              THE COURT:  So I got it today.  So I couldn't
           8         even tell you what is in it.
           9              MR. DANDAR:  All right.
          10              THE COURT:  But if that is it where I asked her
          11         to send me an affidavit indicating any of her
          12         declarations that she felt were lies, or incorrect,
          13         that she needed to do that.  And so that may be what
          14         this is.  I'll have to look at it.
          15              MR. DANDAR:  All right.  I don't know the
          16         entirety of it either except it is just my basic
          17         understanding she's trying to change some of her
          18         testimony.
          19              THE COURT:  Well, let's see.
          20              MR. DANDAR:  I'm not sure.
          21              THE COURT:  Let me take just a minute and look
          22         at it.  Yes, see, here is what she says, right at
          23         the beginning:  "I have been admonished by this
          24         honorable Court to review the affidavits and
          25         declarations that I made in other cases and to
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           1         advise this Court whether my testimony in those
           2         sworn depositions was true at the time those
           3         affidavits and declarations were made.  I have done
           4         so and this affidavit recounts the results of that
           5         review."
           6              So I don't think that would mean it would have
           7         anything to do with her testimony in this case.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  Judge --
           9              MR. DANDAR:  As long as she doesn't all of a
          10         sudden for the first time say in this affidavit or
          11         that affidavit "I lied," because that is not what
          12         she said in this hearing.  She said all her prior
          13         affidavits were true or did not contain lies.
          14              THE COURT:  My recollection is she said she
          15         would have to read them.  But -- but -- but, you
          16         know, I understand that, if she's tried to change
          17         something is critical and she testified subject to
          18         cross-examination and there is something different
          19         in the affidavit it does not get the same weight,
          20         so -- so I will consider it.  I don't know what it
          21         is.
          22              MR. FUGATE:  May I proceed, your Honor?
          23              THE COURT:  You may.
          24              MR. FUGATE:  The next exhibit which I have had
          25         the clerk mark and the original is up there is
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           1         Defendant's Exhibit 308.  It is the newly amended
           2         affidavit of Mr. Moxon.  And what I have done -- if
           3         the Court wants us to submit another one, I will --
           4         I have drawn a line through the paragraphs 2, 3, 4
           5         and 6, and Paragraph 5 is what I'm going to offer,
           6         the -- as the authenticating affidavit for a
           7         deposition of Mr. Prince's fiancee, Deneen Phillips.
           8              And Mr. Dandar, this -- this is in rebuttal to
           9         Mr. Dandar's testimony yesterday when he stated that
          10         when Mr. Moxon took the deposition of Deneen
          11         Phillips, Jesse Prince's fiancee, he asked, "Isn't
          12         it true," meaning Mr. Moxon asked, "isn't it true
          13         that Mr. Prince and Ken Dandar are engaged in drug
          14         dealings, illegal arms dealings and some other
          15         crimes."
          16              The entire deposition is attached to 308 and
          17         there are no questions like that in the deposition.
          18         So that is the only way I know to handle it.
          19              THE COURT:  All right.
          20              MR. FUGATE:  And I'll give a copy to Mr. Dandar
          21         and I have a copy -- unfortunately I wrote at the
          22         top 308 before I gave it to you.
          23              THE COURT:  Did you make sure that the clerk's
          24         copy also had those portions that I indicated he
          25         would have to testify to marked through?
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           1              MR. FUGATE:  Yes, I did.  I'll show the Court.
           2              THE COURT:  Okay.
           3              MR. FUGATE:  The next exhibit will be 309 and
           4         I'll hand it up to your Honor.  It is in two
           5         volumes.  The original I have filed with the clerk,
           6         marked for identification with the clerk.  And this
           7         is a -- obviously I don't expect the Court to go
           8         through it at the moment.
           9              This is a harassment time line, if you will,
          10         which has been compiled since 1991.  There is an
          11         authenticating affidavit at the beginning of it by
          12         Mr. William Drescher who indicates in the affidavit
          13         that he compiled this over the period of time with
          14         Church personnel to reflect threats against the
          15         Church and other incidents of harassment.
          16              Now, I have asked that it be modified in this
          17         way, which I think may make it convenient, I'll give
          18         Mr. Dandar back his copy.  I have asked that for the
          19         sake of whatever consideration that the Court would
          20         want to give it, that it be -- it be color-coded,
          21         and I have asked that it be color-coded in this way
          22         and I want to make sure the record is correct here.
          23              Anything that is in bold represents a serious
          24         attack or a threat on the Church such as a bomb, a
          25         bomb threat, such as a shooting, a staff member
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           1         walking down the street in Clearwater with a BB gun
           2         or a dart gun, or all of these incidents which have
           3         occurred.  In fact, many incidents like that of
           4         actual violence to parishioners and staff members in
           5         Clearwater in my tenure in representing the Church,
           6         I have been involved in and they are tabbed out
           7         whenever there is one, there is a police report, so
           8         it is documented for the Court's purposes as to that
           9         specific incident.
          10              I think it -- the italics will represent, when
          11         you see it, an incident that happens in Clearwater.
          12         If it is blue -- marked in blue, it's -- it's a
          13         threat or an E-Mail or some sort of publication by
          14         someone who has been identified as associated with
          15         LMT.
          16              And the red is a threat or an attack on David
          17         Miscavige individually, which you have heard
          18         testimony about throughout, such as putting the
          19         coordinates of his office on -- you know, on a
          20         Global Positioning Satellite System which could go
          21         right to the office at Hemet that you have heard
          22         about.
          23              And this -- with the authenticating
          24         affidavit -- has each place that there is a
          25         documenting exhibit, it's noted, such as tab 60,
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           1         whatever, whatever it happens to be, you'll find the
           2         document that authenticates whatever the harassment
           3         incident that it indicates it is therefore
           4         documented.
           5              And I can tell you that I think it is something
           6         that the Court should consider.  I think it is
           7         something that the Court should consider in light --
           8         and in rebuttal, if you will, too, the testimony you
           9         heard about the Stacy Brooks harassment time line
          10         that Mr. Dandar introduced into evidence and asked a
          11         variety of questions about, in your questions of
          12         Mr. Shaw and Mr. Dandar's questions of Mr. Shaw
          13         today there were questions about security, the
          14         Church having security people.
          15              And as I say, this will sort of give you the
          16         history of a variety of incidents that have
          17         occurred.  And as you read through it, I feel having
          18         read through it, believe it or not, you'll see --
          19         for instance, if you remember some of the picket
          20         signs --
          21              THE COURT:  If you are introducing something,
          22         see if counsel has an objection.
          23              MR. DANDAR:  I do have an objection.  This has
          24         nothing to do with me.  It has nothing to do with
          25         Bob Minton, or the Lisa McPherson Trust.  It is rank
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           1         hearsay.  It is irrelevant.
           2              THE COURT:  Overruled.  I'll receive it.
           3              MR. FUGATE:  This is your Honor's copy and the
           4         original is filed with the clerk.
           5              THE COURT:  I think that it bears on several
           6         things.  Some of the allegations deal with, you
           7         know, whether the Church has good basis for having
           8         surveillance, for having folks watch for security
           9         reasons.  I think it also tends to, you know,
          10         establish that some of what is going on here is a
          11         tit for tat, quite frankly.  Neither side will admit
          12         that, but that is something what I might use it for.
          13              MR. FUGATE:  I'll quit while I'm ahead and move
          14         right to the next.  The next exhibit I would propose
          15         to admit for the Court -- for the Court to admit is
          16         actually already part of the record in this case,
          17         but I would like to give it a specific number for
          18         this hearing.
          19              THE COURT:  All right.
          20              MR. FUGATE:  It is in rebuttal to Mr. Prince's
          21         testimony regarding Earle Cooley.  And if you'll
          22         recall, Earl Cooley was and is a Church -- an
          23         attorney that represents the Church.  And Mr. Prince
          24         basically under oath said that he, Mr. Cooley, had
          25         suborned perjury and that he, Mr. Cooley, was
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           1         present at a meeting in 1983 that Mr. Miscavige and
           2         others were present at where the original order was
           3         given to destroy the PC folders that are here before
           4         you.
           5              And also it goes into other areas that
           6         Mr. Prince has addressed in his affidavit, which is
           7         the affidavit that gave rise to the fifth amended
           8         complaint.  I can't even remember what exhibit
           9         number that is, but you know which one I'm talking
          10         about, it is the August '99 affidavit.
          11              This 310 is Mr. Cooley's affidavit that was
          12         filed in -- I'll give you the date here -- I believe
          13         October of 1999 in response to -- in rebuttal to at
          14         that time the '99 affidavit.
          15              And I would invite the Court to read it in the
          16         fact it does rebut essentially everything that
          17         Mr. Prince has testified to about a takeover, about
          18         guns being drawn on people, about pulping the PC
          19         folders.  I think Paragraph 9, for instance,
          20         Mr. Cooley notes, although Mr. Prince said that
          21         he -- Mr. Cooley was present at a meeting in 1983 --
          22              THE COURT:  Sounds like you are testifying.
          23         That is unfair, improper.  If you have an affidavit,
          24         you are lucky if I'll allow that in.  I sure don't
          25         want the record to be full with Lee Fugate trying to
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           1         testify.
           2              MR. FUGATE:  No more testimony, Judge.  Here is
           3         the affidavit.
           4              THE COURT:  All right.  This is already part of
           5         this record?
           6              MR. FUGATE:  It is part of the case record.
           7              THE COURT:  Court file.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  Court file.  And I just ask it
           9         be --
          10              THE COURT:  Mr. Dandar?
          11              MR. DANDAR:  Objection -- well, it is already
          12         part of the case file so --
          13              THE COURT:  Yes, it is already part of the case
          14         file, so we'll take it -- for whatever value an
          15         affidavit has versus live testimony subject to
          16         cross-examination.
          17              MR. DANDAR:  And there is also other testimony
          18         of Vicki Aznaran, president of RTC, in this file.
          19              THE COURT:  There is so much testimony in this
          20         case, I couldn't even begin to tell you what is in
          21         or not.
          22              MR. DANDAR:  She --
          23              THE COURT:  But this is already part of our
          24         court -- you know, our court file.  I would hate to
          25         ask the clerk to find it.  But it is part of the
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           1         court file.
           2              MR. FUGATE:  The reason I pulled it out, Judge,
           3         is for that very reason.
           4              THE COURT:  I'll give it a number, Number 310.
           5              MR. DANDAR:  I just point out for the record
           6         and for your Honor to make a note, Plaintiff's
           7         Exhibit 103, which was filed in August or September
           8         of 1999 to add parties, is the Vicki Aznaran
           9         deposition excerpts, president of RTC.
          10              Mr. Prince was in RTC at the time she made that
          11         deposition -- gave that deposition.  And she said a
          12         truckload of PC folders were pulped.  So this is
          13         while Mr. Prince was still in -- still in the Sea
          14         Org, not RTC, when she gave that deposition.
          15              THE COURT:  You know, one of the good things
          16         about this is that we'll be able to see what they
          17         rely on in closing argument and then you'll be able
          18         to remind me of that.  So I won't have to remember
          19         that.  Because I guarantee you I won't.  So if they
          20         raise something and you want me to remember
          21         something, you be sure you tell me about that.
          22         Okay?
          23              MR. DANDAR:  I sure will.
          24              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, I'm going to offer
          25         a copy of the taped interview of Jesse Prince on
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           1         November 1, 1992 with Mr. Rathbun.  Several points
           2         on this.
           3              The reason we're offering the video of this
           4         interview is to impeach the testimony of Mr. Prince
           5         with respect to certain aspects of that.  He said it
           6         was under coercion; he said that there are people
           7         surrounding him in the room, that Mr. Sutter was in
           8         there and there were other people in there.  He said
           9         that Mr. Rathbun made him change the date to an
          10         inaccurate date.
          11              The videotape puts the true perspective on this
          12         and shows that is not true.  Otherwise, we would be
          13         introducing the transcript which has been introduced
          14         in numerous other cases -- or at least one other
          15         case, has been on the Internet.
          16              The reason we want to introduce the video is
          17         because in other cases, and in this case, Mr. Prince
          18         has said that interview -- in which he said things
          19         which are in direct opposition to his testimony here
          20         on such issues as the existence and meaning of fair
          21         game, that Mr. Miscavige was not running RTC when
          22         Mr. Prince was there because Mr. Miscavige was in a
          23         different position, that Mr. Miscavige didn't run
          24         all corporations, his explanation of what the GO,
          25         removal of the GO, is.  All that is different in
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           1         this interview.  Mr. Prince's explanation is it was
           2         coerced.  The video shows it wasn't coerced.
           3              Your Honor raised a question why was this
           4         videod -- well, this was a unique situation.
           5         Mr. Prince, Ms. Aznaran, Mr. Broeker attempted on
           6         their own to -- to revive the scriptures and
           7         basically assume the management of Scientology, at
           8         least that is what evidence in the record shows.
           9         Ms. Aznaran had left, had signed some releases when
          10         she left, had received consideration, and then she
          11         had brought a suit for 70 million dollars and said,
          12         "Oh, those releases, I was coerced into doing them."
          13              And I was involved in that case, as were a
          14         number of other counsel at the time.  And -- and
          15         when Mr. Prince was leaving there was a litigation
          16         situation.  He was directly -- this interview was --
          17         in fact, the purpose of the interview was to
          18         interview Mr. Prince because he was a witness in
          19         that case and that case was expected to go to trial
          20         at sometime in the near future.
          21              And it was considered important that
          22         Mr. Prince, who had previously been aligned with
          23         Ms. Aznaran and Mr. Broeker, was concerned, well,
          24         maybe he'll say the same thing she did.  And so as
          25         the tape shows, Mr. Prince was very much aware that
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           1         it was being recorded, he had no expectation of
           2         privacy in the interview.  He knew the purpose of
           3         the interview and he was not coerced and that is the
           4         purpose of showing the video.
           5              I think this is the only video of any person in
           6         a similar situation because of the unique situation
           7         of that particular situation.  You will notice there
           8         were no videos of Mr. Franks or Mr. Young or
           9         Ms. Young or whatever.
          10              The fact is, however, you know, Scientology is
          11         a young and new religion.  And throughout history --
          12         and I don't need to repeat this to your Honor --
          13              MR. DANDAR:  I'll object.  This is a lot of
          14         argument and a lot of testimony.
          15              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Actually I should say it is
          16         argument in response to the point as to what the
          17         Court raised.
          18              Often litigation develops with young movements.
          19         The Mormons have been involved in a lot of -- the
          20         Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses.  And we
          21         have seen the Church of Scientology had more than
          22         its fair share of litigation.  I actually think the
          23         amount of litigation is that -- that era may be
          24         ending because this is really the only major case
          25         left in the country in which the Church of
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           1         Scientology has litigation.
           2              But at the time there was litigation involved
           3         and so it was -- when Mr. Prince was leaving it was
           4         considered important to protect the Church by
           5         obtaining an interview, by obtaining releases and by
           6         making sure that he would not come along and say
           7         what Ms. Aznaran -- "they were pointing like a gun
           8         at my head."  There is no gun at his head.  You can
           9         see the interview.  We're not going to play it here.
          10         We would like to just give it to your Honor and
          11         offer it for that purpose.
          12              THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Dandar?
          13              MR. DANDAR:  The fact --
          14              MR. LIEBERMAN:  It would be 312, I think.
          15              MR. DANDAR:  It is 311.  But the fact remains
          16         that --
          17              MR. FUGATE:  It is 312.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  312.
          19              MR. DANDAR:  It was a hidden camera.  It is
          20         obvious it's a hidden camera.  You can see the coin
          21         in the camera that is behind some glass.  And
          22         Mr. Prince does not know it is being videotaped.  We
          23         asked for them to produce this so we could review it
          24         because we've never seen this before and Mr. Prince
          25         has never seen this before.  He has never known that
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           1         he was videotaped before during his departure.  And
           2         we still object to the introduction of this
           3         videotape.
           4              THE COURT:  I can't remember what occurred
           5         after the concern that I had, there may be something
           6         illegal about videotaping someone who doesn't know
           7         they're being videotaped.
           8              But something came up after that where I think
           9         you either introduced or tried to introduce or I
          10         allowed you to introduce something that had some --
          11         some -- I just can't remember --
          12              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Well, Mr. Yanny's affidavit
          13         deals with a lot of the same allegations in the
          14         Aznaran case that are addressed in this discussion,
          15         your Honor.  And it addresses the content of it, the
          16         substantive part of it addresses a lot of the
          17         allegations that Mr. Prince has made and that
          18         they've submitted all these affidavits for.
          19              This was a -- an interview by Mr. Prince that
          20         the substantive portion of it -- the transcript of
          21         the substantive portion on it has been introduced in
          22         other cases.
          23              The only reason we want to show the video is
          24         because it shows that Mr. Prince is not telling the
          25         truth when he says that other people were in the
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           1         room with him, that he is being coerced, it was an
           2         oppressive situation, that Mr. Rathbun insisted on
           3         changing the date for -- I don't know why he threw
           4         that in because it was actually Mr. Prince who
           5         corrected the date on it.
           6              And it just goes to Mr. Prince's credibility.
           7         He comes in here, he testifies.  This demonstrates
           8         that he was not testifying accurately, your Honor.
           9              THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, as I said, I can't
          10         remember what it was that either came in or I
          11         thought I let in that would have been something
          12         that -- of a similar nature.
          13              I don't know the answer to it.  I'm going to
          14         let it in.  I will figure it all out and maybe I'll
          15         kick it out.
          16              MR. DANDAR:  Well, since he's now using it to
          17         try to call Mr. Prince a liar, Mr. Prince demands
          18         that they produce his preclear folders during this
          19         time, 1992 and 1991, and he is willing to give that
          20         to the Court so the Court can see what kind of
          21         coercion he was under.
          22              THE COURT:  Well, what we need to do here is to
          23         have a motion filed.  I don't -- I don't understand
          24         how one relates to the other.  They say they are
          25         admitting this for a very limited purpose.  One is
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           1         that Mr. Prince indicated that he was under a great
           2         deal of pressure.  And that this will show that this
           3         is not true.  Mr. Prince, I heard saying, when it
           4         was starting to be played, "Well, everybody had left
           5         the room."
           6              Well, I will take an affidavit, once he sees
           7         it, from him regarding those matters.
           8              However, I will still be able to see whether
           9         there appeared to be a pressure tactic situation
          10         when this was occurring.  And a very -- I would say
          11         minor matter, but for some reason, because I don't
          12         even think he knew what it was, or cared what it
          13         was, that he had been asked to put a different date
          14         on it or something like that.
          15              That is what they are introducing it for.  It
          16         would seem like that would clear that up.  It
          17         doesn't seem to be anything so significant that I
          18         should keep it out.
          19              However, as I indicated to you, I have some
          20         problems because it is clear to me Mr. Prince didn't
          21         know he was being interviewed.  Anybody knows they
          22         are being interviewed, it is from the front, not the
          23         back.
          24              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Your Honor, he did know he was
          25         being interviewed.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  No, interviewed was the word you
           2         used.
           3              THE COURT:  Videotaped.
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  Videotaped.
           5              MR. DANDAR:  Could we have it on the record
           6         they are representing this as the entire unedited
           7         videotape of the entire meeting from the very second
           8         it started to the very second it was over?
           9              THE COURT:  I don't know.
          10              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Yes.
          11              THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  So I'm going to
          12         receive it.  As I said, I don't -- when I said
          13         didn't know he was being interviewed, obviously he
          14         knew he was being interviewed.  He did not know he
          15         was being videotaped.  I knew that as soon as I saw
          16         he was being videotaped from the rear.  When you
          17         videotape somebody, you want to see their face, just
          18         like on a videotaped deposition.  That gave me some
          19         concern there might be some illegal purpose to it.
          20         I have got it.  If I decide that is not really that
          21         important of an issue in this case, I have got it
          22         and I can see it.
          23              Mr. Dandar, if you feel that because of that,
          24         that is the only reason why I wouldn't watch it,
          25         because it may have been videotaped without his
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           1         knowledge, therefore, there is some law that says I
           2         shouldn't consider it in this hearing, I would feel
           3         differently if we were using it as evidence to
           4         convict somebody, for example, of a crime.
           5              That is not this.  This is a hearing and we're
           6         trying to determine things and so I'm not sure that
           7         the legality I was so concerned with -- I'm always
           8         concerned with legality, but I'm not so sure that
           9         should keep it out for the purpose its being offered
          10         so I'm going to receive it.
          11              You have plenty of time before I will watch it
          12         if you want to make some argument to me, you can.
          13         If Mr. Prince wants to submit some affidavit there
          14         were people there before this occurred and they left
          15         the room, I'll let him submit his affidavit.
          16              All right?
          17              MR. DANDAR:  Thank you.
          18              THE COURT:  All right.  What number?
          19              MR. LIEBERMAN:  312, I believe, your Honor.
          20              THE COURT:  I think it is 311.
          21              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Okay, I'm just going by what
          22         Mr. --
          23              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, 312, because 311 was --
          24         what?  311 is the affidavit you got from Stacy
          25         Brooks.
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           1              THE COURT:  Right.  Okay.  Madam clerk, how are
           2         you going to get this ready for me?  You have no
           3         idea that they would be putting in a thousand
           4         exhibits this afternoon.
           5              THE CLERK:  I'm going to call the office
           6         tomorrow morning, Judge --
           7              THE COURT:  Tell them you still have work to
           8         do?
           9              THE CLERK:  Yes.
          10              THE COURT:  Because I'm going to turn right
          11         around and hand all this to you, I really do need it
          12         fixed up.  This is real important.  So would you
          13         tell them I need you tomorrow?
          14              THE CLERK:  Yes.
          15              THE COURT:  There are a couple things that you
          16         don't have that I do have, like the videotapes.
          17              THE CLERK:  Yes.
          18              THE COURT:  I also have a book -- there have
          19         been some big books.  I have the volume that was
          20         offered by Mr. Dandar that had multiple depositions
          21         in it.  I have that.
          22              THE CLERK:  Yes.
          23              THE COURT:  So if you don't find something,
          24         just make a note, "Absent," tell me what it is if
          25         you can and I'll know if I have it.  Thank you.
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           1              MR. FUGATE:  Home stretch, Judge.  Did the
           2         photograph of the PC folders go in?  I think --
           3              MS. WEST:  Yes.
           4              THE COURT:  I think it did.
           5              MR. FUGATE:  Your Honor, the last three
           6         exhibits that I have are videos that I would ask the
           7         Court -- well, let me tell you what they are and
           8         I'll ask the Court to look at them.
           9              There is an authenticating affidavit from
          10         Mr. Gary Smith.  And he's a parishioner of the
          11         Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization.
          12         And he's been -- he's the executive director of
          13         NarcAnon Drug and Rehabilitation Program in Cape
          14         County, Oklahoma.  It's a video of how NarcAnon
          15         operates and what it does in its community.  It's a
          16         service, offers a service through the Church.  I
          17         have a copy of the video.
          18              THE COURT:  Why would I want that in this
          19         hearing?
          20              MR. FUGATE:  It's -- let me run through them
          21         and tell you what they are.
          22              THE COURT:  Okay.
          23              MR. FUGATE:  They're basically, Judge -- there
          24         are two others that are similar videos.  One of the
          25         new San Francisco mission dedication with an
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           1         authenticating affidavit by Jenna Elfman who opened
           2         it.  There is a New York video which is -- with an
           3         authenticating affidavit from Bunnie Dugan.  And the
           4         New York video actually may be of some interest to
           5         your Honor for the reason that it is describing the
           6         events that -- that the Church volunteers engaged in
           7         at Ground Zero after 9/11.  Actually it has -- a
           8         portion of it you will see Janis Johnson, who is one
           9         of the defendants here, giving touch assists to a
          10         reporter, demonstrating how touch assists work.
          11              And it basically shows -- each of the three
          12         videos depict services that Church parishioners
          13         provide in their communities, which is contrary to
          14         the picture that I think was tried to be portrayed
          15         by Mr. Dandar, that this is some sort of, you know,
          16         operation -- organization running operations.  It's
          17         not.  It is a valid, legitimate religion.
          18         Parishioners believe in Scientology, they go out in
          19         their communities and they work in their
          20         communities, and these videos reflect that.  And if
          21         nothing else, I think it would be interesting to the
          22         Court.
          23              But I would offer those as the next three
          24         numbers.
          25              THE COURT:  All right.
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           1              MR. DANDAR:  This is -- this is irrelevant.
           2         This has nothing to do with rebuttal.  This has
           3         something to do with showing how wonderful
           4         Scientology is which is not an issue before you
           5         today.
           6              THE COURT:  I agree.  I'm going to keep those
           7         out.  You can give me copies of them.  If I have a
           8         chance I'll look at them, just because this is a
           9         case that I'm working on and I'm always interested,
          10         just as I looked -- just as I looked at the other
          11         video, was it New Year's Eve?
          12              MR. FUGATE:  Yes, your Honor.
          13              THE COURT:  But I don't think it has any
          14         bearing on this motion.
          15              MR. DANDAR:  We did not show any videos
          16         denigrating Scientology in this hearing.  In fact,
          17         we showed that New Year's Eve video which was a
          18         rather joyful event.
          19              THE COURT:  I'm not talking about that one.
          20         I'm talking about some DVD or video they gave me to
          21         watch.
          22              MR. DANDAR:  Oh, okay.
          23              THE COURT:  After you had given me something to
          24         watch, I watched something else.
          25              MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  Well, I would like a copy
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           1         of whatever you get.
           2              MR. FUGATE:  And I'll be glad to provide it,
           3         Judge, for the sake of the record --
           4              THE COURT:  I think you have got it, that very
           5         day you were in court.  This isn't something they
           6         sent me through the mail or sent me --
           7              MR. DANDAR:  Oh, those two videos.  No, I'm
           8         talking about --
           9              MR. FUGATE:  I'm going to give him a copy of
          10         these three videos.  So the record is complete, I'm
          11         going to give the clerk the original authenticating
          12         affidavit of Gary Smith, which is the NarcAnon
          13         video; the original authenticating affidavit of
          14         Jenna Elfman --
          15              THE COURT:  She doesn't need it.  I'm not
          16         allowing it in evidence.  She doesn't need it in
          17         evidence in this case.  I'll take it for whatever
          18         you tell me it is, I will look at it and I'll enjoy
          19         it, and if I don't, I'll turn it off.
          20              MR. FUGATE:  Thank you, Judge.
          21              THE COURT:  I won't feel compelled to watch
          22         this as part of the evidence in this case.
          23              MR. DANDAR:  As if you don't have anything else
          24         to do.
          25              MR. FUGATE:  Well then, you'll be happy to
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           1         know --
           2              MR. WEINBERG:  We're still waiting for that
           3         photograph of this stuff.
           4              THE COURT:  Okay.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Let's for the record mark that
           6         as our last exhibit, the photograph.  When we get
           7         it, we'll have the clerk --
           8              THE COURT:  Okay.
           9              THE CLERK:  That is 313.
          10              THE COURT:  315, right?  312, 13 and 14 I
          11         didn't admit.
          12              MR. FUGATE:  I didn't know if you wanted to
          13         mark them --
          14              THE COURT:  If that is what you want to do,
          15         give them to the clerk showing "not admitted."
          16              THE CLERK:  ID only?
          17              THE COURT:  Yes, that is for ID only and you
          18         can show those not admitted.  That will be good.
          19              MR. FUGATE:  That is what I was doing.
          20              THE COURT:  Sorry, I got --
          21              MR. FUGATE:  Gary Smith authenticating
          22         affidavit for Narcanon video, that will be 313.
          23              The Jenna Elfman authenticating affidavit for
          24         the SOMA video, San Francisco mission, will be 14.
          25         And the authenticating affidavit of Mildred Bunnie
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           1         Dugan for the New York video would be --
           2              THE CLERK:  315.
           3              MR. FUGATE:  -- 315 for identification.  And
           4         they are not admitted.
           5              THE CLERK:  The picture is 316.
           6              THE COURT:  The picture would be 316.  If you
           7         don't have it by the time we finish up today, you
           8         can just drop it by my office.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
          10              THE COURT:  A picture -- if you can find these
          11         things, it is real nice to put a picture in one of
          12         those plastic sleeves where there are little holes
          13         on the end and I can just slide it in a notebook.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
          15              THE COURT:  You don't have to.  Just tape it on
          16         a piece of paper.
          17              MR. FUGATE:  Judge, the clerk handed back to me
          18         portions F and G you removed from Exhibit 285 which
          19         is the petition.
          20              THE COURT:  Okay.  I was trying to make the
          21         record a little smaller.
          22              MR. FUGATE:  Good luck.  That is the conclusion
          23         of the rebuttal case in evidence, your Honor.
          24              THE COURT:  All right.
          25              MR. FUGATE:  Except for the picture that is
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           1         outstanding.  Thank you.
           2              THE COURT:  Any surrebuttal?
           3              MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  I call Jesse Prince.
           4              THE COURT:  All right.
           5              THE BAILIFF:  Face the clerk --
           6              THE COURT:  That is all right.  Mr. Prince, you
           7         are under oath.  You understand that?
           8              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
           9              THE BAILIFF:  Speak in a loud, clear voice for
          10         the reporter.
          11              THE COURT:  Go ahead.
          12
          13              ______________________________________
          14                          JESSE PRINCE,
          15    the witness herein, having been previously duly sworn, was
          16    examined and testified as follows:
          17                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
          18    BY MR. DANDAR:
          19         Q    Mr. Prince, during the Wollersheim case, do you
          20    recall the Court's order asking all of the PC folders be
          21    produced?
          22         A    I recall that I have given testimony and
          23    declarations about this, and at the time that I did the
          24    testimony and gave the declarations it was more fresh in my
          25    mind than it is today.
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           1              But I certainly do recall during that trial at
           2    certain points documents were asked for from the opposing
           3    side of Scientology.  And Vicki Aznaran specifically would
           4    sit down, go through the preclear folders, take out anything
           5    that was considered damaging.  They call it vetting, they
           6    call it culling.  We went through that process a few times.
           7    Then at a certain point some of Mr. Wollersheim's folders
           8    were just destroyed.
           9         Q    Did you -- do you know if the Church of
          10    Scientology did produce some of Mr. Wollersheim's PC
          11    folders?
          12         A    Yes, they did and I have testified to that.
          13         Q    Then another order came in from the Court to
          14    produce the rest of them.  What happened to that?
          15              MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to the form, your
          16         Honor.
          17              THE COURT:  Sustained.
          18    BY MR. DANDAR:
          19         Q    Do you know --
          20              THE COURT:  Did another order come in asking
          21         for more folders?
          22              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
          23              THE COURT:  And what happened after that?
          24              THE WITNESS:  Mmm, I do believe that something
          25         was produced to the Court at that time but it wasn't
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           1         what they asked for, and the situation was getting
           2         kind of panicky as far as we as Scientologists were
           3         concerned, so, you know, we -- we sat in a meeting.
           4         Mr. Cooley was there.  And, you know, I'm sorry he's
           5         an officer of the court, but he was there.
           6         Miscavige was there.  Vicki Aznaran was there.  I
           7         was there.
           8              You know, we were in this whole mode and
           9         evolution of getting rid of -- we were worried about
          10         a raid.  We were worried about fed agents coming in
          11         and raiding Scientology.  And it is not like it
          12         hadn't happened before.
          13              And the biggest mistake from when the Church
          14         got raided before is the amount of documents --
          15         incriminating documents that were found.  We wanted
          16         to limit that liability by destroying things that
          17         showed LRH had continued to manage the alter ego
          18         of --
          19              THE COURT:  We are talking now -- this is
          20         surrebuttal so we're talking about the Wollersheim
          21         files, that meeting, those people were sitting
          22         around.  Then what happened.
          23              THE WITNESS:  Then litigants of cases and it
          24         was decided, you know, we can't turn over this
          25         stuff, we just can't do it.
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           1    BY MR. DANDAR:
           2         Q    Why?
           3         A    You know, as I sit here today, I struggle with
           4    trying to think of why.  But at the time, the concern was
           5    what was in the preclear folders.  What Mr. Wollersheim had
           6    said, what had been written about him.  And, again, like --
           7    like Lisa, they write the programs.  Example:  "Lawrence
           8    Wollersheim isn't doing good today.  He seems to be going a
           9    little crazy, losing his mind.  He was interviewed by this
          10    person.  This may be upsetting to him.  Go in and do this,
          11    this and this."  So that kind of information that showed
          12    what Mr. Wollersheim to be saying to be true was taken out
          13    of the folder.
          14              And what was -- what remained are things like of
          15    no consequence.  Like a success story from completing a
          16    course.  Or -- or -- or somebody writing something about
          17    him, a knowledge report, or a session schedule.  You know,
          18    things of no real consequence that -- that the Church wasn't
          19    afraid to turn over.
          20         Q    And did the Church then turn over those things?
          21         A    Yes.
          22         Q    But the things that were either -- made the Church
          23    look bad or incriminate the Church, what happened to them?
          24         A    Everything about their upper-level materials were
          25    destroyed.
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           1              MR. WEINBERG:  What was the last?
           2              THE COURT:  Or about their upper-level
           3         materials --
           4              MR. WEINBERG:  Materials?
           5    BY MR. DANDAR:
           6         Q    Now --
           7              THE COURT:  I'm not sure I understand what that
           8         is.  You mean their upper-level materials meaning
           9         those materials that they did not care for the world
          10         outside of Scientology to see?
          11              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
          12              THE COURT:  So that would have had nothing
          13         specific to do with Mr. Wollersheim as much as it
          14         would have been revealing or divulging upper-level
          15         Scientology materials not made for or wanting the
          16         outside world to see?  Is that what you're talking
          17         about?
          18              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.  We look at this
          19         vast library here.  Not one spec of those materials
          20         are present in this courtroom.
          21    BY MR. DANDAR:
          22         Q    The upper-level materials?
          23         A    Correct.
          24              THE COURT:  What would those be?
          25              THE WITNESS:  That would be -- your Honor, if I
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           1         could just have that little book that Mr. Moxon can
           2         show you, I could show you once and then you would
           3         have it as a reference.
           4              THE COURT:  All right.  I took mine back to my
           5         office already.
           6              THE WITNESS:  Oh, okay.
           7              MR. DANDAR:  It is called the --
           8              THE WITNESS:  I'll be really quick.
           9              MR. DANDAR:  -- the Scientology Handbook, for
          10         the record.
          11              THE WITNESS:  This is the grade chart.  This is
          12         the one that has the grade chart in here.  I'll just
          13         see if I can get it real quickly for you because I
          14         just saw this in here.
          15              THE COURT:  The grade chart is tabbed.
          16              THE WITNESS:  Is that right?  Okay.
          17              Well, it is not that tab.  It is not that one.
          18         It is not that one.
          19              Okay.  Let me just be really quick here.  I'll
          20         just look in the grade chart here, I'll find it,
          21         because they do have -- gee --
          22              THE COURT:  All that mumbling you are doing, my
          23         court reporter is going crazy.  She's writing it all
          24         down so just look for it, okay?
          25              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
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           1              Oh, well.  I thought I would be smart and find
           2         it real quick but I'm not able to do that.
           3              Okay, on Scientology's grade chart --
           4              THE COURT:  Somebody find the grade chart for
           5         him.  I saw it myself.
           6              MR. WEINBERG:  Here.
           7              THE COURT:  There is one.  Okay, let Mr. Prince
           8         have that one.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  Then we'll give you one if you
          10         want it.
          11              THE COURT:  Okay.
          12              THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
          13    BY MR. DANDAR:
          14         Q    You want me to hold it?
          15         A    Okay, upper-level materials.  This is the grade
          16    chart.  As has been explained, you have the training side
          17    which is on the left, the processing side on the right.
          18              If you look here where it says "Auditor class
          19    9 --" well, I skipped that.
          20              Starting right here, "Clear," on up through here,
          21    these materials are what the Church has labeled as
          22    confidential secret trade secrets and they are not
          23    published.  This isn't anything you can go in a book store
          24    and buy or use outside of the Scientology organization.
          25    Matter of fact, they have it where electronically if you
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           1    take them out of the room it sounds an alarm.  So that is
           2    what we are talking about here, starting from clear on up
           3    through here on the processing side is confidential
           4    materials.
           5              And when we go over here to the training side,
           6    with auditors, it parallels that -- we look down here at the
           7    5A graduate, Class 6 auditor, Class 7 auditor is where the
           8    R6W begins and that is confidential up through here.  Class
           9    8 is -- Class 6 and 7 have to do with OT levels lower than
          10    OT3.  When you get up to Class 8 that deals with OT3.  When
          11    you get up here with Class 9, that deals with NED FOR OTs.
          12    FOR OT is an acronym.
          13              Class 10, 11 and 12 has to do with the Ls.  Those
          14    are also confidential levels in Scientology.  And that is a
          15    confidential side.  The issues that you don't see in
          16    evidence in court today.
          17              THE COURT:  All right.
          18              THE WITNESS:  Did I explain it good, Judge?
          19              THE COURT:  I think so.
          20              THE WITNESS:  Okay.
          21    BY MR. DANDAR:
          22         Q    Mr. Prince, you reviewed the outside folders, in a
          23    quick fashion that are sitting on the table here with
          24    defense counsel, of Mr. Wollersheim, correct?
          25         A    Almost subliminally, yes.
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           1         Q    Okay.  Mr. Wollersheim's PC folders, does this
           2    represent all of Mr. Wollersheim's PC folders, as far as you
           3    remember?
           4         A    No way.
           5         Q    Why is that?
           6         A    Mmm, because you have certain classes and types of
           7    folders that are preclear folders.  In this pile what I have
           8    seen is some folders of Mr. Wollersheim's earlier auditing.
           9    And then I see what, one, two, three, four, five, six,
          10    seven, eight, nine, ten -- maybe ten folders with OT3 on
          11    them.  That makes no sense whatsoever that there would be
          12    that many folders with OT3.
          13              Mr. Wollersheim at least went up -- I think he
          14    completed the level of OT5, which is NED FOR OTs.
          15              Maybe one quarter of Mr. Wollersheim's NED FOR OT
          16    folders are here in the courtroom.  I would give an
          17    estimate.
          18         Q    And do you know whether or not the NED FOR OT
          19    folders were produced to the Court in the courtroom, any
          20    portion of them?
          21         A    To my knowledge, no.
          22         Q    And would you be able to better explain what is
          23    sitting on the table at defense counsel if you were able to
          24    look inside the folders?
          25         A    Absolutely.  I mean, that is all and everything.
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           1    I mean, I'm not suggesting that this is a situation where --
           2    but what would happen if I took all those red folders and
           3    looked through them and found out there wasn't anything
           4    having to do with OT3 but something else in there?  What
           5    would happen if I took those NED folders that are marked as
           6    NED FOR OTs and looked in them and there is something else
           7    in there.  There is no way to tell.
           8         Q    Now, you were deposed by the Church of Scientology
           9    through Bridge Publications in the Colorado federal court.
          10    Correct?
          11         A    Correct.
          12         Q    And in that case, you testified that -- just how
          13    you testified here, that Wollersheim's PC folders were
          14    vetted, culled, and the parts the Church didn't want the
          15    Court to see, they were destroyed?
          16         A    Correct.
          17         Q    And did counsel for the Church of Scientology
          18    Bridge Publications come into court and produce any of these
          19    Wollersheim files to try to make it look like you weren't
          20    telling the truth?
          21         A    Yes.
          22         Q    How much did they bring into court?
          23         A    Oh, at that time?
          24         Q    Yes.
          25         A    Oh, God no.  This is the first time they have ever
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           1    tried this trick.
           2         Q    Oh?
           3         A    And I have been through the whole Wollersheim
           4    case.
           5         Q    As representing the Church and opposing the
           6    Church?
           7         A    Correct.
           8         Q    And when you were opposing the Church in
           9    California in the Wollersheim case, did they come -- did
          10    they take your deposition in that case, or did you just file
          11    a declaration?
          12         A    You know, I don't know.  But -- I don't know or
          13    remember if they took my deposition because I have been
          14    deposed quite a few times and I have worked on a lot of
          15    cases.  But I would think that, yes, they did take my
          16    deposition.
          17         Q    Did you file a declaration in that case saying the
          18    same thing you said in this case, that Mr. Wollersheim's
          19    files were vetted, culled and destroyed for those matters
          20    that the Church did not want the Court to see?
          21         A    Sure.  More than once.
          22         Q    And did they produce the Wollersheim folders, as
          23    they have done today, in the Wollersheim case in California?
          24         A    No.  This is the first time they have ever tried
          25    this trick.
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           1              MR. DANDAR:  That is all I have.
           2              THE COURT:  You may inquire.
           3              MR. WEINBERG:  Just one moment, your Honor.
           4              THE COURT:  All right.
           5              MR. FUGATE:  Could I -- here is the photograph,
           6         your Honor.
           7              THE COURT:  Oh, okay.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  I'm not sure what number it would
           9         be.
          10              THE COURT:  I'm not either -- oh, yes, I am.
          11         316.
          12              MR. FUGATE:  Then 316 is your copy and this is
          13         Mr. Dandar's copy.
          14              MR. DANDAR:  Thank you.
          15              MR. FUGATE:  For the record, it is the
          16         photograph of all of the volumes that were
          17         displayed, your Honor and described, your Honor, by
          18         Mr. Moxon in the courtroom.
          19              THE CLERK:  Judge, I also need 289B.
          20              THE COURT:  289 what?
          21              THE CLERK:  289B, to go with the Cipriano
          22         affidavit.
          23              THE COURT:  Oh, yes, you were to see if there
          24         was a 289B to go with the Cipriano affidavit.
          25              MR. MOXON:  I didn't have anything else with
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           1         me, your Honor.
           2              THE COURT:  Okay, so you'll have to get that.
           3              MR. MOXON:  Yes, I'll --
           4              THE COURT:  Okay.
           5                       RECROSS-EXAMINATION
           6    BY MR. WEINBERG:
           7         Q    Now, Mr. Prince, the FACTNet case never went to
           8    trial, did it, that you were deposed in?  That case never
           9    went to trial?
          10         A    Correct.
          11         Q    And the part of the Wollersheim case that you
          12    worked with Mr. Leipold on in which you filed your June 30,
          13    1999 affidavit, that case, your deposition was not taken in
          14    that case, was it?
          15         A    Again -- again I'll testify as I did just moments
          16    ago, I'm not sure.
          17         Q    And that case, the phase that you were on, once
          18    you left Scientology and began working with these lawyers in
          19    cases against Scientology, that case had to do with a motion
          20    by Wollersheim to add new parties, correct?
          21         A    You know, counselor, I couldn't tell you that.
          22         Q    And that didn't go to trial, did it?
          23         A    I could not tell you that.  I don't -- I don't
          24    know that.
          25         Q    Now, the -- clearly what is in front of you here
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           1    are upper-level materials.  Correct?
           2         A    Incorrect.  That is not clear at all.  I would
           3    have to look in the folders to see what is in there.  Make
           4    no mistake about it.  I would have to look in the files to
           5    determine what is actually in the files.
           6         Q    You know what auditing -- you know what PC files,
           7    the covers of them, look like from your experience in the
           8    Church, correct?
           9         A    Yes, I do.
          10         Q    And you know that each file is in a folder?
          11         A    Yes, I do.
          12         Q    Right?  And the folder typically would have, what,
          13    on it?
          14         A    The front of the preclear folder would have --
          15    Mmm -- an indication on the top right-hand corner
          16    demonstrated by either a green stripe or a yellow stripe or
          17    a red stripe that would designate it's a clear, it's NED FOR
          18    OTs or it is confidential or something like that.  And it
          19    has the person's name on it.
          20              It has, in the series of folders, which number
          21    folder this is.  Such as folder number 7 is complete, which
          22    normally they complete when they are about this tall
          23    (indicating), then they're retired and folder number 8 would
          24    be started.  And on the very front of the preclear folder it
          25    would have specifically the starting date and the ending
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           1    date of the record that is in the file, and it would
           2    basically have that similar information on the spine of the
           3    folder.
           4         Q    Now, you clearly testified in this case, did you
           5    not, that all -- all of the remaining folders, preclear
           6    folders of Larry Wollersheim, were pulped, destroyed?  That
           7    is what you testified, didn't you?
           8         A    I don't believe that was my testimony.
           9         Q    Well, let's start with your affidavit.  Do you
          10    remember the August 20 affidavit of 1999 that you filed in
          11    this case?
          12         A    Yes.
          13         Q    And do you remember in that affidavit that --
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  Can I approach the witness, your
          15         Honor?
          16              THE COURT:  You may.
          17    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          18         Q    That in that affidavit in Paragraph 19 that you
          19    describe Mr. Wollersheim's preclear file, do you see that?
          20         A    Yes, I do.
          21         Q    And do you see that among other things you say
          22    that -- in Paragraph 19, "There was also concern that the
          23    materials known as clear, OT1, OT2, OT3 and NED FOR OTs
          24    (NOT) would be open to public inspection if Wollersheim's
          25    files were produced as ordered."  Do you remember that?
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           1         A    Yes.
           2         Q    Those are the upper-level materials you just
           3    described to the Court, right?
           4         A    In part, yes.
           5         Q    Right.  And then you -- in Paragraph 21 in this
           6    affidavit say, "Later I was informed that a second court
           7    order was issued to produce Wollersheim's entire file.
           8    Faced with the prospect of having to produce the entire
           9    file, Miscavige gave orders that the entire file simply be
          10    destroyed by being pulped.  Pursuant to Miscavige's orders,
          11    I ordered Rick Aznaran to take Wollersheim's preclear files
          12    to the recycling plant in Riverside to be pulped.  Several
          13    hours after I gave the order to have Wollersheim's preclear
          14    files destroyed, Rick Aznaran returned and confirmed that
          15    the records had been pulped and even showed me a small
          16    bottle of pulp material, 'Here's what's left,' he said."
          17              Now, is there any -- any doubt in your mind that
          18    what you swore to in this affidavit was that the entire --
          19    the entire preclear folder, including the entire upper-level
          20    materials, was destroyed?
          21         A    Mmm, yes, there is definitely a doubt in my mind
          22    that at least what is represented to be here on the table is
          23    Mr. Wollersheim's upper-level materials.
          24              I know without -- without a question of a doubt in
          25    my mind that this incident happened.  And I was even
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           1    reminded of it when I read Mrs. Aznaran's declaration when I
           2    was still in Scientology in 1988 when she relates the exact
           3    same story.  So as I said, we went through this whole trial
           4    with Wollersheim.  I was the expert witness on that case
           5    until it was settled by Scientology during these
           6    proceedings.
           7              I was there in Los Angeles for the very last day
           8    of the proceedings.  This never happened and this was a big
           9    issue.  I have said this for years.
          10         Q    Did you ever in 19 -- when did this supposedly
          11    happen, 19 what year?
          12         A    When what supposedly happened?
          13         Q    Your testimony that I just read about this pulping
          14    of files?
          15         A    I think I gave testimony that either happened in
          16    1984 or '85.
          17         Q    All right.  And at that time, did you -- had you
          18    gone through the upper-level materials, files, of
          19    Mr. Wollersheim?
          20         A    I had seen some of them.  I personally was not
          21    familiar with the length and breadth of Mr. Wollersheim, and
          22    I believe the complaint was specifically about NED FOR OTs
          23    driving him crazy and I think that is why he got the
          24    judgment.  This is what I'm thinking.  So I think what was
          25    at issue in particular about that was NED FOR OTs.
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           1         Q    So you never saw that file?
           2         A    I saw part of it.
           3         Q    And you didn't go and actually destroy the
           4    documents?
           5         A    No.
           6         Q    And you didn't see the documents destroyed?
           7         A    Correct.
           8         Q    You were just -- you are just relying on what
           9    somebody else said to you?
          10         A    Mmm, Richard Aznaran reported -- as I stated in
          11    the declaration, affidavit.
          12         Q    All right.  Now, do you remember in this
          13    proceeding being asked, on June 18, 2002, by Mr. Dandar, the
          14    following question and giving the following answer --
          15         A    Can you just show it to me, please?
          16         Q    We'll just read along together.
          17         A    Well, how can we do it together if I don't have
          18    it?
          19         Q    Well, I have only got one copy so we'll have to do
          20    it together.
          21         A    Okay.
          22         Q    Do you remember being asked on June 18, 2002, Page
          23    279, question by Mr. Dandar, "In your experience in
          24    Scientology, were things that were beneficial papers and
          25    documents that were beneficial to Scientology removed from a
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           1    member's PC folder?
           2              "Answer:  No, you know, and I have written a
           3    declaration about this before.  Well, this declaration may
           4    be in and of itself, you know, with the Wollersheim -- there
           5    was the process of 'Okay, well, we'll turn over something,
           6    we'll go through and we'll -- we'll get rid of any kind of
           7    incriminating things that would incriminate Scientology.'
           8              Then when the production of all the folders were
           9    called for, it -- that became too massive of a task and it
          10    was decided to destroy them all."
          11              Were you asked that question and gave that answer?
          12         A    Right, and I think I'm capsulizing two events that
          13    I mentioned specifically in the written declarations, so
          14    again, I don't want to play word games here.  You know, I
          15    said what I said.
          16         Q    Well, you said what you said, which was the
          17    decision, according to your sworn testimony here, the
          18    materials were just too massive to cull them out and,
          19    therefore, you said the decision was made to destroy
          20    everything.  That was your testimony.  Right?
          21         A    And, you know, and that is my testimony.  And
          22    again, I don't have the motion in front of me or
          23    specifically what the concern was, what was specifically
          24    being asked for, what the concern was specifically.
          25              So, you know, I'm only able to answer in general
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           1    terms.  But as I sit here today and I see that tiny stack
           2    that allegedly is supposed to be Mr. Wollersheim's NED FOR
           3    OT files, I can state categorically that is not all of his
           4    files by any stretch of the imagination.
           5         Q    There never was an order in the Wollersheim case
           6    to produce -- for the Church to produce these confidential
           7    upper-level materials, either OT1, OT2, OT3 or NOTs, was
           8    there?
           9         A    You know, I think the record will speak for
          10    itself.
          11         Q    So if there is no such order, you will stand
          12    corrected what you said to Mr. Dandar?
          13         A    I think the record will speak for itself.
          14              THE COURT:  I think what he's asking you is
          15         that if, in fact, if the whole record were looked
          16         and at no one ever asked for these to be produced,
          17         then there would have been no reason to destroy
          18         them.
          19              THE WITNESS:  Oh, correct.  If no one had
          20         asked --
          21              THE COURT:  You must be mistaken if, in fact,
          22         the Court never asked for them is what he's saying.
          23              THE WITNESS:  Oh.
          24              THE COURT:  If the record reflects the Court
          25         never said produce them, then there would have been
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           1         no reason to panic and destroy them.
           2              THE WITNESS:  If the Court had never asked for
           3         them to be produced it would not have been anything
           4         that would have come into anyone's mind.
           5    BY MR. WEINBERG:
           6         Q    Okay.  And when I said upper-level materials, I'm
           7    actually referring to the upper-level folders.  You
           8    understood that?  Do you know the distinction?  I mean --
           9         A    No, you are making a distinction now, so, I
          10    mean --
          11         Q    Well, the upper-level auditing folders are, for
          12    example, a folder that -- that you were describing that
          13    would be a -- a OT1 or OT2 or OT3 folder, correct?
          14         A    Correct.
          15              THE COURT:  He's saying only one-quarter of the
          16         upper-level folders are there.
          17              THE WITNESS:  The NED FOR OT.
          18              MR. WEINBERG:  But I had been calling them
          19         upper-level materials and materials are what are
          20         delivered and folders are the record of the auditing
          21         process.
          22              THE WITNESS:  But, you know, Mr. Weinberg, both
          23         of those articles can appear in a preclear file.
          24              THE COURT:  You are also saying, Mr. Prince, I
          25         gather, still, that Ms. Aznaran culled through all
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           1         of the files to see if there were damaging things to
           2         the Church's position and they were removed
           3         individually?
           4              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
           5              THE COURT:  But you still maintain that whole
           6         files of some of the upper-level NED FOR OTs were
           7         culled?
           8              THE WITNESS:  Correct.  During this second
           9         instance.  I have two separate instances.  It came
          10         up once and some months later it came up again that
          11         somebody was hammering down the door to get
          12         Mr. Wollersheim's preclear folders or requests were
          13         being made or whatever.
          14              THE COURT:  And all these people sat around
          15         making -- and a decision was made to destroy them?
          16              THE WITNESS:  Yes, not only Mr. Wollersheim's,
          17         but I gave testimony in this proceeding of other
          18         persons who I believe files were also destroyed.  I
          19         think I mentioned John Nelson, I think I mentioned
          20         Gerry Armstrong.
          21    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          22         Q    Now, you said something about -- concerning a
          23    raid.  There was no concern about some law enforcement
          24    agency coming in and seizing Mr. Wollersheim's preclear
          25    folders, was there?
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           1         A    No, that is not what I testified to.  I said there
           2    was concern for a raid in general.  There were several
           3    things --
           4              THE COURT:  I don't want to hear it.
           5              MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
           6              THE COURT:  This is so far removed.
           7              MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
           8              THE COURT:  This is cross-examination on
           9         surrebuttal.
          10              MR. WEINBERG:  One last question.
          11              THE COURT:  Okay.
          12    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          13         Q    You said something about that you could state
          14    categorically that this pile of -- that this NOTs -- the
          15    NOTs files you see on the table are not all of them, that is
          16    what you said, right?
          17         A    Yes.
          18         Q    But you never saw or reviewed Mr. Wollersheim's
          19    NOTs files, right?
          20         A    Right, not in their entirety.  That is correct.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  That is all my questions, your
          22         Honor.
          23              THE COURT:  Did you see files that you are
          24         alleging were destroyed?
          25              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
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           1              THE COURT:  So --
           2              THE WITNESS:  There were many more NED FOR OTs
           3         files than those sitting at the table.
           4              THE COURT:  You are saying when this occurred
           5         you saw them?
           6              THE WITNESS:  I saw them earlier, the first
           7         time when Ms. Aznaran had them all in the room
           8         during the culling and things she testified to in
           9         her deposition.
          10                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
          11    BY MR. DANDAR:
          12         Q    Mr. Prince, how thick is a PC folder?
          13         A    A preclear folder, an average size -- I mean, it
          14    can be varying size because you keep adding paper in it, but
          15    normally when the preclear file gets to be this big it is
          16    retired.
          17         Q    Four inches?
          18         A    Yes, three and a half, four inches, yes.
          19         Q    Do you see every file over here?  Are each of
          20    those four inches?
          21         A    Well, I see that a majority of them are the size
          22    that I give.  But I see these little bitty files that are in
          23    the red folders that, to me, look like someone has taken a
          24    regular-size folder and broken it down and made folders, in
          25    other words, find -- something has been created here.
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           1         Q    But you do know that some files of Mr. Wollersheim
           2    were produced to the Court in this case?
           3         A    Yes, and I testified to that.
           4              MR. DANDAR:  All right.
           5                       RECROSS-EXAMINATION
           6    BY MR. WEINBERG:
           7         Q    You understand --
           8              THE COURT:  Wait a second.
           9              MR. WEINBERG:  I thought he was done.
          10              THE COURT:  It is Mr. Dandar's turn.
          11              MR. WEINBERG:  I thought he said he was done.
          12              MR. DANDAR:  Well, I am done.
          13              MR. WEINBERG:  I had mental telepathy.
          14              MR. DANDAR:  He saw my hand go up.
          15              THE COURT:  I see.
          16    BY MR. WEINBERG:
          17         Q    But you know that what was produced were the
          18    lower-level folders, not the upper-level folders, correct?
          19         A    That is incorrect.
          20              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  I have no further
          21         questions.
          22              THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you, sir.  You
          23         may stand down.
          24              THE WITNESS:  Thank you, your Honor.
          25              MR. DANDAR:  Now, this is going to be
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           1         difficult, Judge.  Since they brought in the
           2         Wollersheim PC folders, I did call Mr. Wollersheim's
           3         counsel.  He is -- I know you don't want me to use
           4         the word "outrageous," I'll say upset.
           5              THE COURT:  Okay.
           6              MR. DANDAR:  And Mr. Wollersheim himself wants
           7         the Court to take into custody these PC folders and
           8         he wants to fly here and review these PC folders to
           9         see if they truly are his PC folders because he
          10         doesn't believe that they are.
          11              THE COURT:  Well now, we're not going to do
          12         that.  I'm not going to take custody of those
          13         folders.  First of all, they are not mine.  They are
          14         not being introduced.  They belong to at this moment
          15         the -- Mr. Moxon who is the custodian of those.
          16              I am not going to stand here and wait while
          17         Mr. Wollersheim flies here.  I have been told they
          18         are not Mr. Wollersheim's, that they are, by
          19         property right, the property of the Church.
          20         Therefore, he does not have the property right to
          21         them, apparently.
          22              Now, so I'm not going to do that.  Whatever
          23         went on in the Wollersheim case, that case is over.
          24         There was a verdict in that case that has been paid.
          25         So, you know, he can be outraged or incensed, but
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           1         the long and short of it is, what bearing does it
           2         have in this case.
           3              What did he say about my looking at them?
           4              MR. DANDAR:  He does not give anyone permission
           5         to look at his PC folders.  But this is why I -- I
           6         would hope you would let him come here for this
           7         reason.  True, it has nothing to do with his case,
           8         his case is settled.  But if in fact -- and I don't
           9         know the truth -- but if in fact these were created
          10         for you and they are not his PC folders, that would
          11         be a fraud on the Court.  I would hope that that is
          12         not the case.  I would hope Mr. Wollersheim is
          13         incorrect, all right, that these are part of his
          14         folders, that all these folders were the ones
          15         produced or requested to be produced to the court in
          16         California.
          17              I'm told by the attorney who is actually at the
          18         trial -- there were many appeals about this, judges
          19         were recused, RICO suits were filed all over these
          20         PC folders.  I was told today by the attorney who
          21         was there --
          22              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Mr. Leipold wasn't there.
          23              MR. DANDAR:  No, another attorney.
          24              -- that all of the PC folders, the first order,
          25         all of the PC folders of Mr. Wollersheim were
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           1         ordered to be produced and they were not and they
           2         were just given a little bit and saying that is it.
           3         Then the second order came out.  I'm just repeating,
           4         of course, hearsay from another attorney.
           5              But it is important here for the reason I just
           6         said:  If this is not true, this is a fraud on the
           7         Court.
           8              THE COURT:  I don't --
           9              MR. DANDAR:  If it is true, then I back off
          10         everything I said.
          11              THE COURT:  I would agree with you.  But it
          12         seems odd they would come in with a motion with a
          13         lawyer who flew in and ask me to look at them if
          14         they were not Mr. Wollersheim's folders.  Maybe they
          15         think I would think that they would think that I
          16         was -- I was so inept or so blind that I couldn't
          17         see whether or not these belonged to Mr. Wollersheim
          18         or whether they were Ms. Schmidt's?
          19              MR. DANDAR:  No, I don't -- I don't think you
          20         or I could look at these and say these are genuine
          21         copies or the original of Mr. Wollersheim's folders.
          22              THE COURT:  Well, we don't know that because
          23         Mr. Wollersheim won't even give me permission to
          24         look at them.  So you may be right, I might be able
          25         to -- you may be right.  But the truth of the matter
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           1         is he hasn't given me permission to do that so I
           2         won't do an in camera hearing because of
           3         Mr. Wollersheim's request that I not, and I will
           4         honor that.
           5              Therefore, I will, however, reflect the Church
           6         did ask me to do an in camera inspection and I would
           7         have but for Mr. Wollersheim's request that I not.
           8              So there we have it.  I'm not going to take
           9         possession of some files here.  I wouldn't know what
          10         to do with them, where to put them.  My clerk
          11         wouldn't know what to do with them.  I think if you
          12         want to, we can take inventory of how many there are
          13         and we can count them.  There is a picture here that
          14         seems to show them, I mean, pretty good.  You can
          15         show that to Mr. Wollersheim.
          16              MR. DANDAR:  But it is the inside that is the
          17         telltale sign of what they really are.  That is why
          18         they need to be examined, because they are offering
          19         these documents for your review to try to impeach
          20         Mr. Prince.  And if they are not truly
          21         Mr. Wollersheim's PC folders, that would not be the
          22         proper thing to do in this courtroom.
          23              THE COURT:  It does seem as if there is -- if
          24         somebody is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
          25         The only reason I would say that is not true is if
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           1         you urged Mr. Wollersheim to let me look at them and
           2         he said absolutely not, that there would be things
           3         in there that would be harmful to him he didn't want
           4         anybody to see and I would understand that.
           5              MR. DANDAR:  First of all, I have not talked to
           6         Mr. Wollersheim.  I'm still waiting for his call.  I
           7         only talked to his attorney, so before you make a
           8         decision at least let me have enough time to talk to
           9         Mr. Wollersheim.
          10              THE COURT:  Okay.
          11              MR. DANDAR:  All right?
          12              THE COURT:  All right.  I take it -- I mean, it
          13         is nigh onto 4:30.  I'm tired.  These proceedings
          14         tire me out.  I don't want to stay late.  They have
          15         asked me to do this.  I presume, therefore, they
          16         think it is important, they meaning the defendants
          17         in this case.  I wish to honor any privilege.  And
          18         that is his privilege to claim.  But I don't want
          19         games to be played here.
          20              I mean, I don't want people -- like
          21         Mr. Wollersheim can make an allegation, then all of
          22         a sudden there is something brought forth that
          23         perhaps would show those allegations aren't
          24         accurate -- I'm not talking about Mr. Prince; I'm
          25         talking about whatever went on in the Wollersheim
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           1         case or whatever didn't go on in the Wollersheim
           2         case -- then one side brings something forward, then
           3         the other side says, "Well, those are fraudulent but
           4         you can't look to make that decision," that seems
           5         awfully odd to me.  You are right, I would not be
           6         able to make heads or tails out of it.  But I don't
           7         know.  For all I know every single piece of paper
           8         has something at the top that says "Wollersheim" and
           9         a date.  A date starting at a certain date.
          10              Mr. Prince, did these files have a name and
          11         date, Mr. Prince?
          12              THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor, they would be
          13         named and dated each session.  But the reason why
          14         you have to know what you're looking at in order to
          15         see that these files -- obviously there are files
          16         here but are these complete files?  Are these all of
          17         Mr. Wollersheim's?
          18              THE COURT:  I really wouldn't know that.
          19              THE WITNESS:  Exactly.  The only way you would
          20         know that, maybe you can't see from your angle, but
          21         there are certain pink pages that appear in these
          22         folders which indicate what program the person is
          23         on, what date, why they're on the program, and then
          24         there's another running record of every auditing
          25         session the person had called folder summary.
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           1              So you would literally have to take the folder
           2         summary to see that it is complete and then compare
           3         in those files what they present that everything is
           4         there.
           5              THE COURT:  I don't know how we're going to
           6         resolve this.  For this hearing I honestly -- I'll
           7         let Mr. Moxon take them back and we're just going to
           8         let the record speak for the record.
           9              MR. LIEBERMAN:  That is what we would urge.
          10              THE COURT:  But I'm not going to wait for
          11         Mr. Wollersheim because I'm not going to give him
          12         permission to go through them if they are not his
          13         and apparently they are not his.
          14              MR. LIEBERMAN:  I would make the point, I think
          15         it is an obvious point, I'm sure your Honor will
          16         know, that while we maintain that these are all the
          17         files, that is not the issue.  These were presented
          18         to impeach Mr. Prince's testimony that all of the
          19         files were ordered destroyed by David Miscavige at
          20         this meeting and that all of the files were
          21         destroyed, he followed David Miscavige's orders, he
          22         told Rick Aznaran to pulp all of the files and they
          23         came back in a little vial.  And this is submitted,
          24         your Honor, to show that is, forgive me, pulp
          25         fiction.
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           1              THE COURT:  That is just too uncanny to end
           2         this hearing on that note so I will say a few words.
           3              MR. DANDAR:  Could I respond?
           4              THE COURT:  No, I think we're done.  In other
           5         words, you have made your point.  I think Mr. Prince
           6         now says if he implied that all of the files were
           7         destroyed, he didn't mean that.  He said that the
           8         files are not as massive as he would have believed
           9         them to be, certain things were taken out.  We'll
          10         see what he said before.  I still don't know what he
          11         said before.  I'm going to have to read it, look at
          12         the transcript when I get it, see if he's saying
          13         something different now from what he said then.  If
          14         he is, see if there is a basis for that, or if the
          15         basis is that these files were produced.  So I know
          16         how to look at testimony that changes or that
          17         doesn't change.
          18              MR. LIEBERMAN:  I know.
          19              THE COURT:  So I think I'm just going to,
          20         Mr. Moxon, allow you to take them back.
          21              MR. MOXON:  Thank you.
          22              THE COURT:  So tell Mr. Wollersheim I'll not
          23         allow him to look through them because this is not
          24         that case and I don't know what that would establish
          25         and I don't believe they are his and the Church
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           1         would object.  And I will let the record say this,
           2         Mr. Prince -- Mr. Prince wanted to look through
           3         them, I'm sure you would object to that.
           4              MR. FUGATE:  Absolutely.
           5              MR. MOXON:  Yes.
           6              THE COURT:  In other words, I have indicated
           7         that Mr. Wollersheim doesn't want me to see them,
           8         but you don't want Mr. Prince to see them either.
           9              MR. FUGATE:  No.  And I don't think he wants
          10         you to see them either because they -- as I know PC
          11         folders to be constructed, by what little work I
          12         have put into them, they are signed, many of them,
          13         by the person that did the auditing and by the
          14         person that received the auditing and dated, in the
          15         SOLO files they are in Mr. Wollersheim's
          16         handwriting.  So although you wouldn't know what
          17         perhaps all of it is, you certainly, as Mr. Monique
          18         Yingling put it, would know it when you saw it and
          19         you would know it was original.
          20              THE COURT:  And she said she's not a
          21         Scientologist, but she knows enough to know whether
          22         it is somebody's auditing file.
          23              MR. FUGATE:  Right.
          24              THE COURT:  But Mr. Wollersheim is not a party
          25         to this suit.  I have no jurisdiction really over
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           1         Mr. Wollersheim.  And I think the point for which
           2         they were offered has been made, perhaps we will see
           3         what Mr. Prince's testimony was as I said and see if
           4         it changed.  I really don't know.
           5              MR. FUGATE:  Thank you, Judge.
           6              THE COURT:  Okay.
           7              MR. FUGATE:  We should take them, let Mr. Moxon
           8         take them away.
           9              THE COURT:  Mr. Moxon may take them back.  I
          10         will say this, however.  As I said, I -- when I say
          11         this, I hope you know that I mean it, sort of like
          12         the last time when I indicated to you I didn't know
          13         how I would rule on the vitreous, I wasn't kidding,
          14         I went back and forth, looked at it long and hard.
          15         I have no idea.  There is a lot for me to digest.
          16              I'm not that familiar with the law in this
          17         area.  It's not that familiar.  I never had a motion
          18         for terminating sanctions.  Never had a motion to
          19         disqualify a lawyer.  So -- well, maybe I have in
          20         the criminal court, but they were always quite
          21         different, they were always conflict of interest,
          22         this type of thing.
          23              So I have a lot to digest.  I have no idea how
          24         I'm going to rule.  So my statement here should not
          25         be implied I have made a ruling because I haven't.
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           1              If this case goes to trial, and this becomes an
           2         issue, imagine -- I mean, imagine how much more I
           3         know about all of this than any juror sitting --
           4         selected to sit, and think about a little issue like
           5         this, you all trying to make heads or tails of it in
           6         front of a jury.  A jury would not have a clue, you
           7         know.  They don't even have the benefit of the law
           8         that we all have.  Like impeachment and whether or
           9         not this would impeach Mr. Prince, depending on what
          10         Mr. Prince said, did he change his testimony, if he
          11         changed his testimony would it be because of the
          12         production of what you see, or not, because
          13         Mr. Prince said you wouldn't know what was in them
          14         unless you looked in them.
          15              I can't look in them.  I can go through all
          16         this legally.  It would be very, very hard for a
          17         jury and that could become an issue.  Very
          18         complicated.  It would be a very complicated trial
          19         for a lay jury.  Totally, totally unfamiliar with
          20         any of this, to figure it out.
          21              The counterclaim.  I'm not so sure about the
          22         wrongful death part of it.  The counterclaim would
          23         be very, very difficult.
          24              All right.  Well, is that it?  Any more
          25         surrebuttal?
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           1              MR. DANDAR:  No.  I'm just going to try to get
           2         those orders from the Wollersheim case you asked me
           3         to get.
           4              THE COURT:  Yes, I did ask you to get those
           5         if -- that would be helpful.  You may submit those.
           6         I do want -- Mr. Moxon, whatever happened -- if
           7         there was recantation of an affidavit, then later
           8         another statement says, "I don't recant, I made a
           9         mistake --" I don't know how valuable anything is
          10         when it goes through that much.
          11              MR. MOXON:  I'll give it to you.
          12              THE COURT:  But I'll have it all.  Matter of
          13         fact, it becomes useless after a while.  But in any
          14         event, it is part of the record so we need the whole
          15         record.  You may submit the orders from the
          16         Wollersheim case regarding the PC folders.  That
          17         will be helpful to me.
          18              MR. DANDAR:  All right.
          19              THE COURT:  Let's see.  Anything else that
          20         we're expecting?  I have given you-all three weeks
          21         from Friday so that gives you an extra day to
          22         produce the first closing argument.  And you'll have
          23         until the following Friday.
          24              If you finish early -- if any side finishes
          25         early, if you are done and happy with what you have
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           1         and you are happy with your product, don't just sit
           2         on it until the last minute, because needless to
           3         say, I really don't plan to do much -- I might start
           4         reading some of the transcripts, but the truth of
           5         the matter is until I see where you all are headed
           6         and what you all think is important, I'm not going
           7         to spend my time on some area that might be totally
           8         unimportant.
           9              So I can't make a decision until I get these,
          10         so if you get these, meaning your closing arguments,
          11         if you have your closing argument done ahead of
          12         time, submit it.
          13              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Okay.
          14              THE COURT:  And, Mr. Dandar, if he should
          15         submit his early, you'll have -- I guess that would
          16         be a full seven days, because it comes in on Friday,
          17         it's due on a Friday.  So if he gets it in early, if
          18         you would, start your seven days from the following
          19         day.  And then when he gets his in, you have got
          20         your seven, because I gave you a week, right, Friday
          21         to Friday, so that is seven days.
          22              MR. LIEBERMAN:  And I assume we can agree on --
          23         on personal service, direct personal service, rather
          24         than mail or anything like that, so everyone gets it
          25         right away.
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           1              MR. DANDAR:  Absolutely.
           2              THE COURT:  I don't know what that means.
           3              MR. LIEBERMAN:  In other words, we give ours to
           4         him directly on the day it is due, we don't stick it
           5         in the mail so he gets it on Monday.
           6              THE COURT:  Oh, sure.
           7              MR. LIEBERMAN:  Hand-delivered.
           8              MR. DANDAR:  I won't be delivering it in person
           9         to New York City, though.
          10              THE COURT:  You'll deliver it by in -- in
          11         person to one of the -- these lawyers?
          12              MR. DANDAR:  One of the local lawyers.
          13              THE COURT:  You all will get me my copy.
          14              MR. WEINBERG:  Sure.
          15              THE COURT:  Anything further we need to do on
          16         the hearing?
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  We just need to clean up on the
          18         few exhibits that have to be -- you know, we have
          19         got -- we have to put.  A, B, C, D, E, F --
          20              THE COURT:  I thought we had done that.
          21              MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think that has been
          22         done.
          23              MR. MOXON:  One last thing, this video, there
          24         was only one copy.  Just to clean this up, I'm not
          25         sure which number.  This is on the classification
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           1         and gradation chart.
           2              THE COURT:  What number was that, madam clerk,
           3         do you remember?
           4              THE CLERK:  Which one is that?
           5              MR. MOXON:  312.
           6              THE COURT:  She had it but I didn't.
           7              THE CLERK:  Wait a minute.
           8              MR. MOXON:  304, your Honor.
           9              THE COURT:  304?
          10              MR. MOXON:  Thank you.
          11              THE CLERK:  Judge, could you also state that
          12         the affidavit of Stacy Brooks in regard --
          13             (A discussion was held off the record.)
          14              THE COURT:  Who is going to give the clerk
          15         Number 311 which is what was -- that is Ms. Brooks'
          16         affidavit?
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think we have it, but it
          18         is probably in one of our offices.
          19              MR. FUGATE:  Since it is going to be marked as
          20         a defense exhibit, when we get it I'll have it
          21         delivered -- well, you'll be here tomorrow?
          22              THE CLERK:  Yes.
          23              MR. FUGATE:  If we get it tomorrow, Earlene,
          24         I'll bring it here.  If we --
          25              THE COURT:  Madam clerk, I have a better
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           1         thought, so you don't have to do that.  Why don't
           2         you take mine, it has my received stamp on it, run
           3         to the copy room and make a copy.
           4              MR. FUGATE:  Thank you, Judge.  That will be
           5         fine.
           6              THE COURT:  Because the original will be filed
           7         in the court file.
           8              MR. FUGATE:  Yes.
           9              THE COURT:  This is just an exhibit.
          10              MR. FUGATE:  That is perfect, Judge.
          11              THE COURT:  Madam clerk, you may be excused.
          12              MR. DANDAR:  I have a clean-up motion.
          13         Whatever we haven't talked about on the plaintiff's
          14         exhibits I would like to move into evidence, and I
          15         don't know what they are until I talk with the
          16         clerk, in case I missed any.
          17              THE COURT:  Any exhibit that either side hasn't
          18         introduced, unless I have specifically excluded it
          19         where there has been an argument and I said no, I'll
          20         not introduce that, if they have forgotten to
          21         introduce it and I haven't said it is excluded, it
          22         is admitted.
          23              MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
          24              THE COURT:  I assume that would be just simply
          25         an oversight.  True?
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           1              MR. FUGATE:  True.
           2              MR. DANDAR:  True.  That is three trues.
           3              THE COURT:  That is unusual.
           4              Madam clerk, are you going to do that?  Because
           5         I'm waiting for that affidavit.  That is my
           6         nighttime reading tonight.
           7              THE CLERK:  I am going --
           8              THE COURT:  I want you to go now and do it.
           9         Okay?  All right.  So what day was today?
          10              MR. DANDAR:  I don't know.  Mr. Lirot, if he
          11         was here, he would tell us.  It could be 36.
          12              MR. FUGATE:  I don't know.
          13              THE COURT:  Well, I don't know what I is.  But
          14         it has been a long hearing.  It was one of the
          15         longest hearings I participated in -- so because of
          16         that, I am sure there has been times when I have
          17         been hard on counsel, hard on witnesses, maybe hard
          18         on personnel, although I usually try to be good to
          19         my personnel.  No one should take that personally.
          20         I don't mean any ill feeling toward any lawyer I may
          21         have barked at, any witness I may have barked at.
          22              As I said, these are -- this is a trying type
          23         of motion.  I hope everybody understands that.  The
          24         accusations that are made are not pleasant.  They
          25         are not pleasant for the Court.  Obviously they are
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           1         not pleasant for each other.
           2              So it has been -- it has been -- if I fussed at
           3         you, it is not personal.  Simply it has been a long
           4         hearing.  I hope everyone thinks they had every
           5         opportunity to make his or her -- his case.  That
           6         was my intent when we started this hearing, to make
           7         sure it was a fair, impartial and objective hearing.
           8         I think it has been.
           9              I think we've got a lot of information in this
          10         record that we probably don't need.  But I think I
          11         want more to be included than excluded for this
          12         particular hearing.  I could only pledge to both
          13         sides that I will continue to give this my fair and
          14         impartial and objective -- and give it my best
          15         efforts to come up with a fair, impartial, objective
          16         solution.
          17              MR. WEINBERG:  Thank you.
          18              THE COURT:  Thank you, all.  We are adjourned.
          19           (WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 4:50 p.m.)
          20              ______________________________________
          21
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                            Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
                              Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
                            Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
                                                                        144
           1                      REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
           2
           3    STATE OF FLORIDA         )
           4    COUNTY OF PINELLAS       )
           5              I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
                certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
           6    report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
                a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
           7
                          I further certify that I am not a relative,
           8    employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
                am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
           9    attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
                financially interested in the action.
          10
          11              DATED this 19th day of July, 2002.
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          14                              ______________________________
                                              LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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                            Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
                              Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
                            Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500







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