CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11

                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
                Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,



                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,



                PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief

                DATE:               June 10, 2002.  Morning Session

                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
                                    St. Petersburg, Florida

                BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
                                    Circuit Judge

                REPORTED BY:        Debra S. Turner
                                    Deputy Official Court Reporter
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida

                                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                        TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
                        ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320

Page 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B 7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 10 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 11 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and 13 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 14 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 15 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 16 17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 18 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 19 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 20 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 21 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 Counsel for Robert Minton 23 24 25
Page 3 1 (The proceedings began at 9:06 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Okay. Good morning. 3 SEVERAL SPEAKERS: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: I did take occasion to look at 5 these Volumes 1 and 2 over the weekend. You all said 6 I could have them. But the truth of the matter is it 7 probably isn't something anybody would watch twice. 8 It seems like -- it was a lovely -- I hope you all had 9 a chance to go. It must have been a -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: That one I didn't go to, but 11 I did go to one. 12 THE COURT: It was -- had to be quite a 13 celebration. Anyway, I watched it all. And thank you 14 for giving it to me. And I must admit I knew some of 15 the abbreviations, but some of them I didn't. They 16 were talking about OT 8s. I was out of my league, 17 so -- but I did know what a PC was, and I did know 18 some of the other terminology that was used. So I'll 19 be able to keep up pretty good. 20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, now that you said that, 21 this was videotapes -- two-volume videotapes given to 22 you at the end of Friday's hearing. 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. DANDAR: It's not an evidentiary matter. 25 It's not part of any of their motions. I think it was
Page 4 1 only given to you and a copy was given to me. I think 2 that's an improper attempt to try to influence you on 3 how wonderful Scientology is, which has nothing to do 4 with the hearing before you. 5 THE COURT: You should have objected before. 6 They gave it to me. They gave it to me in court. 7 They said watch it. I said I would. I did. 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 9 THE COURT: If you didn't want me to watch 10 it, you needed to say so. 11 MR. DANDAR: I had no idea -- that's why I 12 said -- it's after the fact, I understand. 13 THE COURT: Well, trust me, I don't think it 14 has any bearing on this issue that I'm deciding here 15 today. I think it was just something that, since 16 there was some discussion that the movie The Profit 17 was indeed a parody on Scientology and perhaps it 18 didn't portray what was true, the Church in a good 19 light, I think they just wanted me to see their 50th 20 anniversary. I was happy to watch it. And you don't 21 need to worry. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 THE COURT: Now, some notes. Let me start 24 and go backwards. 25 Well, Mr. Howie, did you have something for
Page 5 1 me this morning? 2 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, I do. I'm 3 going to go ahead and file the notes of the March 28th 4 meeting in New York that I received from Steve Jonas, 5 starting as always with a courtesy copy to the Court. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 MR. HOWIE: And I'm filing the original with 8 the clerk. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. HOWIE: And I'll distribute the copies. 11 THE COURT: I expect we ought to make this 12 an exhibit. 13 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. 14 THE COURT: I don't know who -- I think, 15 Mr. Dandar, it was you that wanted these, wasn't it? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. It would be plaintiff's 17 exhibit. 18 THE COURT: So we might make it plaintiff's 19 next in line, Madam Clerk. What would that be? 20 THE CLERK: 90. 21 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Howie. 22 MR. HOWIE: And that's all I have this 23 morning, unless anybody needs me. 24 THE COURT: I don't. And I thank you for 25 coming and bringing this, and I'll take an opportunity
Page 6 1 to look through it when I have a minute. 2 MR. WEINBERG: That was 90? 3 THE COURT: 90. 4 MR. DANDAR: Are these all the notes? 5 MR. HOWIE: Those were all the notes, with 6 the exception of the last page, which we determined in 7 conversations with Steve Jonas to be work product, 8 indicating his mental impressions of what he was 9 hearing from the Church. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. DANDAR: I would like that filed with 12 the Court, to have the Court determine if it meets 13 that criteria and if it's still protected under 14 Florida law. 15 THE COURT: Well, do you want to speak with 16 Mr. Jonas about that and see if he has an objection 17 with it? 18 MR. HOWIE: I'll speak with him. 19 THE COURT: It's sort of in the nature of a 20 privilege log or something like that? 21 MR. HOWIE: Well, it's -- without 22 representing the contents of it, it's a total of two 23 lines indicating his mental impression of what he 24 feels the -- 25 THE COURT: Well, then why don't you -- if
Page 7 1 you don't think he would have an objection, why don't 2 you just bring it over and let me take a look at it. 3 If I agree with you, I'll hand it back. 4 MR. HOWIE: Let me speak with Mr. Jonas. 5 MR. DANDAR: There were no notes on the 6 29th, correct? 7 MR. HOWIE: No. These are all the notes 8 that I've been faxed, except for that one page, which 9 consists of about two lines. And I did not receive 10 any notes for the 29th. I believe these were strictly 11 notes for the 28th. That's the way it's been 12 represented to me. 13 THE COURT: And there were none from the 14 29th? 15 MR. HOWIE: I have not received any from the 16 29th. I'm not aware of any from the 29th. I assume 17 that Mr. Jonas provided me with all the notes that he 18 had. 19 MR. DANDAR: Since he's going to contact 20 Mr. Jonas about that last page, could we ask him to 21 ascertain if there's notes on the 29th? 22 THE COURT: Could you ask Mr. Jonas, were 23 those all his notes and he simply did not make any for 24 the 29th? 25 MR. HOWIE: Yes, I will ask him.
Page 8 1 THE COURT: In case there's any confusion. 2 MR. HOWIE: And I'll try to get through to 3 him today, although there's sometimes as much as 4 one-day delay in him getting back. 5 THE COURT: That's all right. 6 MR. HOWIE: Thank you very much. 7 THE COURT: I appreciate it. 8 (Mr. Howie left the courtroom.) 9 THE COURT: I read through the motion again, 10 and I read through the original motion, which was in a 11 much smaller notebook. And then I read through the 12 much larger one of the attachments that was the, I 13 guess, kind of memorandum and exhibits to support the 14 motion. So a couple things became apparent to me. 15 I was doing that to kind of see what I 16 thought about the need to go into this basis or no 17 basis in fact, as opposed to a fraud or a false -- 18 false pleading. 19 One of the things that I noticed in going 20 through here is, for some reason, I had thought that 21 Dell Liebreich had testified in front of Judge Baird, 22 but as I looked at the 19th -- it was real late when I 23 was looking at this. I might have missed it. All I 24 saw testifying was Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar. 25 MR. WEINBERG: She testified on the 30th in
Page 9 1 front of Judge Baird, I think. There was another day 2 that she testified. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. WEINBERG: She did testify in front of 5 Judge Baird. 6 THE COURT: Well, I thought I had read it, 7 but I just couldn't -- it was not part of you all's 8 attachment, right? It must have been submitted as 9 another exhibit or something. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know. 11 THE COURT: Can anybody tell me? Will you 12 all look into that? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, we will. 14 THE COURT: Because I know that I read it, 15 because I remember making some comments about it. So 16 I'm sure that somehow it was presented to me, but I 17 did not find it in my big book. And in looking at 18 Judge Baird's and what had been made part of the 19 original motion, it was -- the testimony from the 9th, 20 which was just Mr. Minton, and it was the testimony 21 from the 19th, which was Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar. 22 So if -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: She testified in front of 24 Judge Baird. 25 THE COURT: Look into it, would you?
Page 10 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 2 THE COURT: And make sure that I've got that 3 up here, either it's been introduced as an exhibit or 4 whatever. 5 MR. DANDAR: I think the transcripts were 6 handed to you by the defense, but their motion only 7 refers to April 9 and 19th. 8 THE COURT: Right. Okay. 9 MR. WEINBERG: We'll make sure that you -- 10 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks. 11 MR. WEINBERG: -- have another copy of her 12 testimony. 13 THE COURT: I think as I -- I keep wavering, 14 thinking of wavering and vacillating; it's part of the 15 jury instruction that I used to like. I keep wavering 16 and vacillating on whether what was in front of Judge 17 Baird should be admissible. I said it was, and I 18 decided it wasn't. And then I realized it was kind of 19 hard for it not to be because it's an attachment -- in 20 other words, there it is; it's part of a pleading and 21 it's been filed. 22 My concern in particular about the -- the 23 deposition testimony was more if Ms. Liebreich's 24 testified -- I'm not so concerned about her, but this 25 sort of reading off of these two sisters' depositions
Page 11 1 and asking for comments. So there's, you know, a part 2 of the transcript in the record. They weren't there; 3 apparently they're not going to be here. It would 4 make sense to me, since I think I've got to consider 5 that testimony, that we would put those ladies' 6 testimony in. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Let me tell you what we're 8 doing today. We're going to have probably about 45 9 minutes of excerpts from various depos, and we will be 10 giving you the full transcripts of two depositions of 11 Dell Liebreich -- 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. WEINBERG: -- which you may or may not 14 already have. But anyway, we're going to give them to 15 you. It's the May 24th, '99, depo in our case, in 16 this case, and the April 20th, 2002, depo in this 17 case. 18 And then we're playing some brief excerpts 19 from the brother, Sam Davis. And so his deposition, 20 May 25th, '99, we'll give you the full transcript of. 21 And then we're playing a few excerpts from 22 another sister's deposition, Lee Skelton, which is 23 also May 25th of '99. And we're putting -- we'll give 24 to you the full transcript of that one as well. 25 So I think this is going to respond to your
Page 12 1 questions. 2 THE COURT: Okay. It will. 3 MR. WEINBERG: And then we're playing two 4 excerpts -- or, several excerpts from Ann Carlson's 5 deposition. And that's the other sister. And one is 6 her deposition on May 24th and May 25th of '99, and 7 the other one is the July 27th, 2000, deposition. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Are there -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: So -- 10 THE COURT: Are there any depositions of 11 those people whose excerpts you're going to provide to 12 me and thus provide the depositions that they have 13 given but that are not in that package? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Well, of those people, 15 I think there's some other depositions of Dell 16 Liebreich. You know, there was one taken -- one or 17 two taken in the breach case, which is not in that 18 package. But we're not taking excerpts out of it, so 19 the answer is yes to that. And frankly, I don't know 20 about the other ones. I think these are all 21 depositions of the other siblings. 22 THE COURT: Okay. What I would like you all 23 to contemplate is this. Since I'm getting a couple of 24 Ms. Liebreich's -- and if there's a third one, 25 probably I -- maybe I ought to have it as well. But
Page 13 1 I'm wondering, we have been at various and sundry 2 times -- because I have the depositions of Mr. Minton 3 and Ms. Liebreich and Mr. -- Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks, 4 and Ms. Liebreich. We've been referring to them from 5 time to time. I refer to them. You all have referred 6 to them. I'm not so sure it wouldn't be a smart idea 7 to make those part of an exhibit and have all those 8 depositions in to be used. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. We will. And for 10 Ms. Liebreich, there was a very early deposition of 11 hers taken in 1997, before Mr. Minton ever arrived on 12 the scene. I think it's like May of '97. And I'm not 13 sure how -- how -- but we'll give you that transcript 14 too. But it was like, you know, one of the first 15 depositions taken in the case, and it was more of an 16 informational deposition about the family, so . . . 17 THE COURT: Okay. Well, just so we -- so 18 we're complete, my little notes from her deposition 19 show that it was very small, not very much in it. 20 But, you know, might as well -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: We'll do it. 22 THE COURT: -- make it complete. And 23 then -- 24 MR. FUGATE: And Stacy Brooks. 25 THE COURT: -- if we could have Ms. Brooks,
Page 14 1 Mr. Minton -- and I guess Mr. Dandar had one 2 deposition. 3 MR. WEINBERG: He did. 4 THE COURT: So we could maybe have that. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: That was in the breach case. 7 MR. WEINBERG: But I did ask some 8 questions -- 9 THE COURT: People have sort of referred to 10 these things, and when we refer to things, it just 11 makes sense to me that if anybody wants to use it -- 12 I'm always leery about a line here or a line there 13 because I've seen -- I really have. As I read last 14 night I saw another situation where one person said 15 something, and then they explained it two lines down 16 and it really kind of changed the whole meaning of it. 17 So it just -- we all need to be sure that 18 we're making a good record here and getting this 19 information in accurately. 20 So that was my suggestion, all of Minton's 21 deposition testimony from Baird, because it's part of 22 an exhibit. Therefore it's in. So when I had said I 23 wasn't going to consider it, I almost have to. All of 24 Brooks' depos. 25 And what you all might do is look at what
Page 15 1 I've got, and if I already have it, don't give it to 2 me again. It's just if I don't have something that 3 you -- because I've kind of marked on these myself. 4 I've looked at them and marked on them, and I don't 5 want to have fresh copies I have to start making new 6 marks on. So you all can see that. 7 Mr. Dandar's deposition I know has been 8 referred to a couple of times. Ms. Liebreich's 9 deposition and testimony, as I say, I couldn't find 10 it, but I know I've read it. So I know it must have 11 been admitted. 12 The complaints for filing dates I have, but 13 I thought we ought to make sure that's part of the 14 record if it isn't. The testimony -- all testimony 15 and evidence here -- and here's what I -- I kind of 16 came down to on where we are, I think, on this, 17 especially in light of the fact that Mr. Prince gave a 18 rather lengthy deposition. And I can envision, based 19 on Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, Mr. Prince being on the 20 stand for two weeks. And, you know, that's just 21 awfully long. 22 It seems to me that where we are here is 23 this, that as to any -- as to any fraud on the Court, 24 as to any false pleadings that were known to be false, 25 as to any influence by Mr. Minton on -- Mr. Minton
Page 16 1 singularly or through LMT, you know, those allegations 2 are made by the Estate, that testimony should be taken 3 here because it's at issue in this motion. So 4 anything that the defense or the plaintiff wish to put 5 on in that regard is fine. 6 As to the factual basis, there's no factual 7 basis for some part of the complaint. We don't need 8 to do that by -- I mean, I don't want to hear from 9 Mr. Prince about -- he's had a thousand-page 10 deposition, whatever is there is there, and presumably 11 he'll tell us the same thing again. 12 So as to summary judgment and whether or not 13 there's any basis for the complaint, it seems to me we 14 need to do that like we've always done that, which is 15 to file your motion, attach affidavits, you attach 16 copies of filed depositions. And of course, you 17 can -- you can file anything that comes out of this 18 hearing. That would be part of sworn testimony, what 19 have you. 20 But I don't want to get into that 21 specifically here. So that's just my -- I think that 22 whether there's -- whether the complaint can stand 23 ought to be done by summary judgment, in the typical 24 fashion. But there's more than that alleged here, and 25 we're going to hear that part of it live here. But I
Page 17 1 don't probably need to hear from Mr. Prince for two or 2 three weeks. 3 I had a question that I will ask you. Did 4 Mr. Minton answer the counterclaim? 5 MR. DANDAR: No. 6 MR. MOXON: No. 7 THE COURT: Are the 20 days up? 8 MR. LIROT: I believe there was a request 9 for extension of time filed by Mr. Howie. 10 THE COURT: Not heard yet. 11 MR. LIROT: It's not been heard, Judge. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Didn't I ask you all at 13 one time whether we ought to consider in the event 14 that the plaintiff -- I'm sorry, defendant here does 15 not succeed on their motion to dismiss, didn't I say 16 we ought to at some point in time discuss whether or 17 not it would be smart to consolidate these for trial 18 or keep them separate? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 20 MR. MOXON: Yes. 21 THE COURT: And was that something I said we 22 could decide after we -- I made the ruling and after 23 the hearing? 24 MR. WEINBERG: I think so. 25 THE COURT: Okay. I just wondered -- I
Page 18 1 didn't want that to get lost out there. 2 I have a note here to the clerk. Madam 3 Clerk, are you there? 4 THE CLERK: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Listen to me here. There are 6 some things that have been submitted to me by the 7 parties. And one of the things may be that extra 8 testimony that may not be part of the record but it 9 may have been handed up. So when you go through there 10 and you find things that you don't even see 11 reference -- do you know what I'm saying? 12 THE CLERK: Yes, I do. 13 THE COURT: Or, you know, show them without 14 an exhibit number, put them as a third category for me 15 in that book. And what I said was you can put the 16 stuff that is not in evidence in that category, but 17 anything that has been given to me separately -- now, 18 some of that I've got up here, but some of it may have 19 been documents I stuck up here. I don't want to miss 20 a thing. Those can be thrown out. 21 Don't try to worry if they're plaintiff's or 22 defendants'. If you don't have it on your list as 23 either introduced or not, it's obviously something 24 somebody has provided to me, I wanted a copy of it or 25 something, stick it in Section No. 3 for me, okay?
Page 19 1 THE CLERK: I will. 2 THE COURT: And the rest of this is not for 3 you. So that's it. 4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I had a -- Mr. -- last 5 week Mr. McGowan on behalf of Ms. Brooks was here and 6 brought in the signed declarations that we wanted her 7 to go through and make sure those were genuine copies. 8 And he did go to the clerk's position over 9 there and look at that, but I don't think there's 10 anything on the record from him as to substituting the 11 unsigned copies that are marked as exhibits for the 12 plaintiff with the signed copies that we gave to 13 Ms. Brooks through her counsel. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I thought that was on the 15 record. I thought we had agreed that there were 16 signed copies, and we would just substitute them. 17 THE COURT: Right. That's what I thought 18 too. I thought we were supposed to make sure that we 19 got on the record -- maybe this got on the record 20 through her testimony. Maybe I told her to assume 21 they were legitimate and look at them, what parts, if 22 any, of those declarations she believed now to be 23 false, if any. 24 MR. DANDAR: That's correct. But she hasn't 25 done anything.
Page 20 1 THE COURT: So that needs to be done. 2 MR. DANDAR: Can we have the clerk tell us 3 if in fact Mr. McGowan handed to you and substituted? 4 THE CLERK: No, he didn't hand me. 5 THE COURT: And those were signed copies 6 that you provided to him? 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Okay. We need to get him and 9 Ms. Brooks back then at some point in time -- 10 MR. DANDAR: Right. 11 THE COURT: -- for that. 12 MR. DANDAR: Right. 13 THE COURT: In particular, I want to know 14 about the -- I think she read through -- there may 15 even be something on the record. I think she read 16 through the copies without being signed and said she 17 couldn't say they were authentic without seeing the 18 signed copies. But I think she looked through them 19 and may have said what, if anything, was false and she 20 may have said nothing was false -- I have some vague 21 recollection that it was some more of this sort of 22 slanting at the way that the lawyers wanted it to be 23 slanted or however it was that she testified. And I 24 could be wrong, but we need to clear that up. 25 Okay. I'm ready.
Page 21 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, just to clarify 2 one point. 3 THE COURT: Yes. How are you, 4 Mr. Lieberman? 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm doing a little better; 6 I'm still a little shaky. 7 THE COURT: Did you have a virus? 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think that's right. We're 9 not sure. I may be a little light-headed. So if I'm 10 incoherent, just tell me and I'll sit down. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's quite possible. It's 13 just a brief point to clarify. Your Honor was talking 14 about the summary judgment on the one hand and the 15 allegations of a sham pleading on the other. Just to 16 clarify, our position is that, as set forth -- I think 17 your Honor well understands it from the memo and 18 supplemental memorandum filed -- that it was improper 19 to make allegations without a proper factual basis at 20 the beginning and to go forward with the hope that 21 something would turn up, as the Court -- one of the 22 courts indicated: The attorney would like us to use 23 our subpoena power to help him discover whether his 24 guess was a lucky one. The request is inappropriate. 25 Our position is it was improper. It was an
Page 22 1 improper pleading, a sham pleading, if you will, to go 2 forward without evidence. Mr. Dandar I think 3 testified here that there is no evidence as of right 4 now. 5 THE COURT: You know, I went back and read 6 those doctors' depositions, and I think I might tend 7 to disagree with you. That can remain for argument. 8 But if you read those doctors' depositions 9 carefully -- and particularly Dr. Spitz. I believe he 10 will say that it was intentional conduct and that 11 there are part of those witnesses' testimony that he 12 does not believe. 13 You'll just have to read it. I went back 14 and looked at it a little more carefully. And I also 15 read Dr. Bandt's testimony beyond what was cited in 16 your memorandum. I think you'll find that there's 17 some more that he talks about, and I think he 18 elaborates on that point. So that's for argument. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: I understand. 20 THE COURT: We can do that another day. But 21 there's a perfect example. In other words, in this 22 hearing, we don't need to call Dr. Bandt and 23 Dr. Spitz. In other words, that's for summary 24 judgment-type stuff. We don't need them here. They 25 certainly -- there's been no allegation that they've
Page 23 1 provided false testimony or that they've conspired 2 with Mr. Dandar to malign the Church or anything like 3 that. So we don't need to hear from that in this 4 hearing. And yet that does not mean that their 5 testimony would not be relevant to both sides as to 6 their summary judgment motion. 7 So that's the distinction I think I'm trying 8 to draw, that there may be some things that really we 9 don't need to -- we don't need to hear live here. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: I understand. And with due 11 respect, I do think that ultimately Dr. Spitz -- and 12 this will be the argument, obviously -- that 13 ultimately Dr. Spitz -- I can't really tell how she 14 would have appeared to the religious workers. You 15 would have to ask the clinician. And of course, the 16 only clinician says she might well have appeared to 17 be -- 18 THE COURT: Well, it sounds like argument. 19 Thank you. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes, it does. So I'll stop. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's that lack of 23 clearheadedness coming through. 24 THE COURT: Actually, it wasn't that you 25 were incoherent; it was simply the matter this was not
Page 24 1 the time. 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: I understand. 3 MR. FUGATE: Judge, when I bailed out on 4 Friday, I told you I was going to talk to -- 5 THE COURT: How are you feeling? 6 MR. FUGATE: Well, actually, I feel better 7 than I did, but I'm not back yet -- 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. FUGATE: -- full speed. But I talked to 10 Mr. Jonas after I left Court and requested -- I've got 11 Mr. Rosen's notes, is what I'm standing to address the 12 Court on, and I asked him if he would write a note 13 consenting to delivering them over to the Court. And 14 he said that he would, and he would fax it to me, 15 Mr. Howie, or both of us. 16 I asked Mr. Howie if he had gotten a copy of 17 the note or the letter, and he said he hadn't. And I 18 have it, but I think that, based on what he said to 19 me, meaning Mr. Jonas, that he had no objection to it 20 being produced and would I write him a similar letter, 21 which I did. I dictated it on Friday. I've got 22 Mr. Rosen's handwritten notes to hand up. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: I guess they would be 25 defendant's next number exhibit.
Page 25 1 THE COURT: Which would be, Madam Clerk? 2 THE CLERK: 185. 3 MR. FUGATE: If you just want to note, 4 Defense 185 (handing). 5 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. 6 MR. FUGATE: Assuming that my conversation 7 with him, you know, was his agreement, confidentiality 8 agreement, that that would suffice, although I have 9 not received a letter from him. 10 THE COURT: You know what he said orally, 11 so -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Yes, right. 13 THE COURT: -- I think we can be pretty 14 comfortable. 15 MR. MOXON: One other brief thing. I 16 haven't stood up yet, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Well, I do want everybody to 18 have an opportunity. 19 MR. MOXON: Stretch my legs. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. MOXON: I can hand to the Court -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: This is the healthy part of 23 our team, Mr. Moxon. 24 THE COURT: Good. I'm glad you're 25 approaching instead of one of the others.
Page 26 1 MR. MOXON: This is supplemental documents 2 we're filing in support of our case. These are some 3 references to Internet sites that the family has 4 supported and the Estate has supported, which goes to 5 some of the issues -- some of the collateral issues, 6 essentially, that they were involved in in this case. 7 THE COURT: Sites that what? 8 MR. MOXON: These are sites that the family 9 has supported, the Estate has supported, that are -- 10 it's actually attacking Scientology and putting 11 information up about Lisa McPherson and their view of 12 things. And we'll make reference to this throughout 13 some of these hearings, and I just wanted the Court to 14 have that. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. DANDAR: We object, because it's not in 17 their motion. As we go along, they keep adding and 18 adding. I'm not even sure how many memorandums of law 19 I have now; maybe six. 20 You know, they file a motion as serious as 21 the motions they filed, they should have had their 22 ducks in a row then and not make it up as they go 23 along. So I object to this, because the family 24 supports or the Estate supports is Mr. Moxon's 25 opinion, and I guess we'll have to call him up there
Page 27 1 to see how he derives that opinion from someone else's 2 Web site. 3 THE COURT: Well, I'll tell you what. 4 You've objected to this. Let me do this -- I don't 5 even know what it is, to tell you the truth. I see 6 there are deposition reference to this, so I'm 7 assuming that this is the deposition references that 8 will show me why he thinks this is relevant. Let me 9 look it over. I'll take it home with me tonight -- 10 Unless you're going to refer to it today. 11 MR. MOXON: I don't know that we'll refer to 12 it today. But it certainly is relevant to what you're 13 going to be seeing today. 14 THE COURT: All right. But I don't have to 15 read these before. 16 MR. MOXON: No, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: That'll give me an opportunity 18 to take it home tonight, and I'll take a look at it 19 and see whether I think it's admissible or not. If I 20 feel like I need argument, why -- 21 Mr. Dandar, how can you possibly listen to 22 me when you're talking to Mr. Lirot? If I feel that I 23 need argument, I will ask you all for it tomorrow 24 morning. Okay? 25 MR. DANDAR: And I apologize.
Page 28 1 THE COURT: It's all right. Sometimes I 2 talk to the record; sometimes I'm talking because I 3 want you to pay attention to me. This is one of those 4 times. 5 Are you ready to -- are you ready to go with 6 Ms. Liebreich -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I am. 8 THE COURT: -- and beneficiaries? 9 I see we have the St. Petersburg Times with 10 us this morning. You've been absent. 11 MR. WEINBERG: She missed some action. 12 THE COURT: You missed some action, but we 13 welcome you back. 14 THE NEWSPAPER REPORTER: Thank you, your 15 Honor. 16 THE COURT: A lot of stuff has been 17 admitted. You're certainly welcome to look at it. 18 MR. WEINBERG: What we're playing -- I sort 19 of already summarized it, but let me just -- it's 20 about 45 minutes total. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. WEINBERG: It's from those depositions 23 that I referred to. It is divided up sort of by 24 subject matter. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
Page 29 1 MR. WEINBERG: And I've given a copy of -- 2 these are the excerpts. I'll hand this to you. And 3 I've already given one to Mr. Dandar, so I think 4 they're in order -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. WEINBERG: -- so you can follow along. 7 We're going to file all of these depositions. We'll 8 file the complete transcripts of the depositions that 9 are referred to. 10 And just for the record again, it's the two 11 Liebreich depositions in May of '99 and April of 2002; 12 the Sam Davis deposition of May 25th of '99; the Lee 13 Skelton deposition of May 25th, 1999; the Ann Carlson 14 deposition that began for a short period of time on 15 May 24th and finished on May 25th of '99; and the 16 July 27th, 2000, deposition of Ann Carlson. 17 Those are the full transcripts that we'll 18 hand up. And then, according to what you ask, we'll 19 complete them with these other transcripts that you 20 want. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. WEINBERG: The subject matters that 23 we've divided these into is that the first group have 24 to do with testimony about the Minton money. 25 THE COURT: Do you -- do you want to tell me
Page 30 1 now -- let's put on the record this will be considered 2 defendant's testimony, deposition testimony -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 4 THE COURT: -- of who? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Of Dell Liebreich -- 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. WEINBERG: -- Sam Davis, Ann Carlson, 8 and Lee Skelton, as it relates to the following 9 subjects. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Let me write it down. 11 And that is, if I'm not mistaken, all of the surviving 12 brothers and sisters. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 MR. WEINBERG: The only other sibling was 16 Fannie McPherson, who was the mom of Lisa. 17 THE COURT: Okay. These will be divided 18 into the following topics. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Topic number one is 20 the Minton money, the conflicting testimony as to the 21 purpose and the use of the funds, whether it belonged 22 to the Estate or was a personal loan to Ken Dandar. 23 That's Category No. 1. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Category No. 2, a brief
Page 31 1 segment regarding the Estate's position that it's 2 judgment-proof or doesn't have any funds. That goes 3 to the issue as to -- I mean, as you know, the Church 4 already has a substantial damage judgment against the 5 Estate. And it goes directly to the damages suffered 6 by the Church and the Estate's attorney's attempt to 7 prevent the Church from ever being made whole. And we 8 argued that in our brief that you read last night -- 9 or I guess this weekend. 10 THE COURT: Reread it. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Reread it. Reread it. 12 Right. Which I should have done this weekend, 13 actually. It's been a long time. 14 THE COURT: It was actually -- the first 15 time I read it, I had no idea about some of the things 16 we were talking about. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 18 THE COURT: It was much faster reading this 19 time -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 21 THE COURT: -- because I was familiar with a 22 lot of it. 23 MR. WEINBERG: The third category is another 24 short excerpt from Dell Liebreich with regard to her 25 testimony about her control in the case; in other
Page 32 1 words, her authorizing pleadings, particularly the 2 pleading which is the basis of our sham pleading 3 allegation, which is the pleading based on Jesse 4 Prince's affidavit to add David Miscavige in 5 paragraph 34 about ordering her, Lisa, to die. 6 And then the fourth category is the -- is 7 the bulk of the -- is the testimony with regard to the 8 agreement. And I guess the point that we -- we have 9 not made myself very clear on and I want to make clear 10 is that it's never been our position -- we're not 11 arguing whether it's enforceable or not enforceable. 12 The -- what the point -- 13 THE COURT: That would be good, because if 14 you were, I probably would have cut you off a long 15 time ago. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, that's not really -- 17 I mean, I know that's how the questions -- I know 18 that's some of the Court's questions. But it had to 19 do, you know, with the -- with our position that there 20 was an improper purpose. And this was part of what 21 ultimately became the LMT and what was going to be -- 22 and how the case was going to be used for the -- and 23 the money from the case was going to be used for the 24 improper purpose of destroying the Church or hurting 25 the Church and whatnot.
Page 33 1 And also it's testimony, I think -- and 2 there is a lot of flip-flopping in the testimony, and 3 we believe that it is very -- that it is exactly what 4 Mr. Minton was talking about when he talked about 5 backtracking. 6 So that -- so that -- and we've tried to 7 be -- I tried my best in going through this testimony 8 to -- to, if there was a flip-flop in a deposition, to 9 have the flip and the flop, okay? So if I missed one, 10 I apologize in advance. But the idea was if in a 11 deposition in one part the witness said A and then in 12 another part the witness said B, just to show the 13 excerpt of A and B. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Good. 15 MR. WEINBERG: So those are the areas. 16 THE COURT: Okay. And then I think what 17 we'll do, once you play for 45 minutes -- I don't know 18 if you're prepared to do this today. If you're not, 19 what we can do is allow you to -- and put your 20 presentation, if you want to make one specifically as 21 to these four people, like cross-examination -- 22 MR. DANDAR: (Nodded affirmatively.) 23 THE COURT: -- you can either put it 24 together in a video fashion like they've done or you 25 can just read it to me out of a deposition and into
Page 34 1 the record. You know, like Mr. Lirot and you can, you 2 know, read question and answer, whatever you want to 3 do. 4 If you're not ready to do that this morning, 5 I would understand that. We could have that done 6 maybe Wednesday. 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I mean, we were just 8 handed these today, this morning, so . . . 9 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And I had had a 10 couple hours, and I cut it way back last night. So I 11 decided to -- and I had told Ken that when I had it. 12 I would give it to him. But I cut it back last night. 13 So I cut it back. I think everybody will appreciate 14 that I cut it back. 15 THE COURT: Oh, yes, indeed. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Cut it back about an hour and 17 15 minutes. 18 THE COURT: Let's say Wednesday morning. 19 Would that be a good time for you to put on your 20 cross-examination? 21 MR. DANDAR: That would be fine. 22 THE COURT: Okay. So we'll just assume then 23 that Wednesday morning -- you can reserve cross after 24 this presentation. You may play or read your cross 25 Wednesday morning.
Page 35 1 MR. DANDAR: I was also told over the 2 weekend by Mr. Weinberg that Ms. Yingling is going to 3 be called by them Tuesday morning and perhaps someone 4 else. And if they know who that someone else is, I 5 would like them to put on the record now so I could 6 prepare. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know who that someone 8 else is, but I do think Ms. Yingling will probably 9 take the better part of the day when she appears. 10 And Ms. Yingling -- she has a little 11 scheduling -- she was supposed to be in Europe, and 12 one of her kids is graduating today from -- like my 13 child did last week -- from a lower division of a 14 private school up there. So there is some issue -- I 15 don't know exactly what time she can get down here. 16 But she will be available sometime -- I 17 would say more like midmorning tomorrow. But she's 18 coming down from Washington, where she lives. 19 And she was at the -- just so you know, she 20 runs the full gamut. She was at the 28th and 29th 21 meetings in New York, and she also was -- met with 22 Mr. Rinder with regard to the meetings that took 23 place -- I mean with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks with 24 the meetings that took place prior to the submission 25 of the affidavits --
Page 36 1 THE COURT: Right. 2 MR. WEINBERG: -- regarding her testimony 3 about. So she runs the full gamut. 4 THE COURT: I think there were some 5 Mr. Minton testified to that he had privately with 6 Mr. Rinder, but I do believe many of the meetings at 7 issue, Ms. Yingling was at. 8 MR. WEINBERG: It was very few. So she runs 9 the full gamut. I think she would take most of the 10 day. 11 MR. DANDAR: Could we have her bring her 12 notes of those meetings as well? 13 MR. WEINBERG: You know, I mean, there comes 14 a point -- I guess I was going to address this 15 tomorrow, but I guess I'll address this today. This 16 hearing is about terminating sanctions as to the 17 plaintiff, and the plaintiff's lawyer's potential 18 disqualification in the case. This is not a hearing 19 about Scientology. 20 I recognize why the Court has suggested that 21 it would be a good idea for at least somebody like 22 Ms. Yingling to be here to address the issues as to 23 what happened in the meetings and whether or not there 24 was, as Mr. Dandar has theorized, extortion or 25 blackmail or whatever.
Page 37 1 But this -- Ms. Yingling is a person who has 2 represented the various churches of Scientology I 3 believe since 1986. And, you know, there is -- this 4 is not some free-ranging discovery situation. There 5 is -- most of what Ms. Yingling could ever say would 6 be privileged because that is what she is; she's a 7 lawyer for the Church of Scientology. 8 And she has been for a long time. She's 9 involved, as she will say, in worldwide matters for 10 the Church and has been involved in the resolution of 11 a number of issues and cases for the Church, and it 12 was the reason why she was there. 13 THE COURT: I don't think I need to hear 14 this. What you need to do, if you want something 15 produced, put it in writing. If they don't want to 16 produce it, then I'll have an argument. But at this 17 point he can file his notice to produce. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he can. And, you know, 19 I guess what I'm saying is we're not -- we want to 20 make it very clear that we're not waiving the 21 attorney-client privilege. We're not waiving the 22 attorney work product. We're not putting Ms. Yingling 23 on the stand for a free-for-all. It is because of a 24 very specific issue, as to whether or not there is any 25 basis for the suggestion in these meetings with
Page 38 1 Mr. Minton that he was extorted. I mean, that's what 2 he's there for. I just want to say that. 3 THE COURT: That's what "she's" there for. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 5 THE COURT: The only notes that he's talking 6 about, I assume, are her notes from these meetings. I 7 don't know if he would be entitled to them or not. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 9 THE COURT: But I would like to see, if 10 there's going to be some kind of disagreement, for him 11 to put it in writing. And then I'll go on from there. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And if there are, I 13 will ask her to bring them. 14 MR. DANDAR: And I don't think we need to 15 get into this argument right now, but if what we 16 allege as extortion is true, there is no privilege 17 under the crime of fraud section. 18 THE COURT: Let's deal with that once we get 19 there. I presume she's not going to be invoking any 20 privileges to these meetings. It would be somewhat -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: No, not as to the meetings. 22 But she will be invoking the privilege and will be -- 23 you know, as to any conversations with other counsel, 24 conversations with the client. I mean, the meetings 25 themselves, I mean, the ones in New York, Mr. Minton's
Page 39 1 lawyer was there, Mr. Jonas. You have at least his 2 notes and Mr. Rosen's sheet that he was using to speak 3 from. 4 And, you know, any meetings with Mr. Minton 5 obviously aren't privileged. But discussions between 6 Ms. Yingling and the client, Ms. Yingling and us, 7 Ms. Yingling, you know, and other lawyers in the case, 8 those are privileged. 9 THE COURT: And I assume that that would 10 be -- you all would invoke the privilege, and that 11 would be -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: Right, much like Mr. Dandar 13 has with regard to himself. 14 THE COURT: And that's fair. But, I mean, 15 obviously she's being called to talk about some 16 discussions, and I assume with regard to those 17 discussions that she had with Mr. Minton, she's not 18 going to claim any confidentiality agreement. 19 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no. No 20 confidentiality agreement. It is -- I mean, that's 21 what she's coming down here to do. Hopefully that 22 will put it to rest so that we can focus on what the 23 issue in the case is. 24 THE COURT: Well, I don't want, just 25 because -- I mean, Mr. Dandar, based on your
Page 40 1 allegations, they think your allegations are 2 outrageous. You think his allegations of extortion 3 are outrageous. 4 The truth of the matter is, frankly, just 5 from what I've heard here, there could be merit to 6 both allegations. I mean, that's what we're here to 7 do. That's what this is all about. And quite 8 frankly, I think you would be quite foolish -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: That's why we're calling -- 10 THE COURT: -- not to call her or more. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 12 THE COURT: Because I think that 13 Mr. Minton's behavior throughout here is very suspect. 14 I think it's very suspect, quite frankly, for people 15 to meet and leave their lawyers out in the outer room. 16 So, you know, don't think that I'm not looking at what 17 he has said just as seriously as I'm looking at what 18 you have said. 19 MR. WEINBERG: And we're mindful of that, 20 and that's why we've asked Ms. Yingling to come, 21 because she is a -- you called her a heavyweight 22 lawyer, but she is a, you know, very -- a very, very 23 experienced and good lawyer and good person, and I 24 think you'll be impressed with her. And I think you 25 will --
Page 41 1 THE COURT: Good. I'll look forward to 2 meeting her and hearing from her. 3 All right. Let's go with the -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: All right. What we're -- and 5 hopefully this is in order, you know, as to what's 6 tabbed here. But we have -- 7 THE COURT: And, Madam Court Reporter, you 8 should take this down. 9 THE REPORTER: Yes, ma'am. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I can give her this. 11 THE COURT: That will be good. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, we will give her 13 this -- 14 THE COURT: She should probably try to take 15 it down, and she'll use that as a backup. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 17 THE COURT: It will probably help her 18 tremendously to know who is talking. 19 Before we start -- we're not quite ready. 20 Didn't you have somebody flying in for tomorrow? 21 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Franks is flying in 22 tomorrow to testify Wednesday. 23 THE COURT: To testify Wednesday, okay. So 24 this will work out nicely then. 25 MR. DANDAR: Right.
Page 42 1 THE COURT: Is that Mr. Prince? 2 MR. WEINBERG: It's loaded up on CDs. 3 MR. DANDAR: Let's see that. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Here it is. 5 (Excerpts were played as follows.) 6 EXCERPT NO. 1 7 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 8 TAKEN ON MAY 24, 1999 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Do you keep some sort of account, as Personal 11 Representative, of how monies are utilized in the Estate? 12 A I haven't. 13 Q Are there any monies, as far as you know, in the 14 Estate at this time? 15 A No. 16 Q Have there ever been any monies in the Estate? 17 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. Identify 18 "monies." 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Money; assets that are -- that can be converted 21 into cash; accounts. 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Well, you do consider the money that Mr. Minton 24 has given to be money for the benefit of the Estate of Lisa 25 McPherson?
Page 43 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. So that is not Mr. Dandar's money to go 3 buy his wife an anniversary gift or himself some personal 4 item; is that correct? 5 A Right. 6 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Is that right? 9 A Right. 10 MR. DANDAR: Assumes facts not in evidence. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Now, is it your understanding that Mr. Minton has 13 given to the Estate $350,000 to date? 14 A I don't know the exact figure. 15 Q Well, does that sound about right? 16 A It might be. 17 Q Has Mr. Minton promised to give any more money to 18 finance the lawsuit? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Well, do you understand that Mr. Minton has some 21 sort of -- I'm sorry. Strike that. 22 Do you understand that the Estate has some sort 23 of obligation to pay Mr. Minton back for the money that he 24 has given to the Estate? 25 A I don't know.
Page 44 1 Q Well, you never asked Mr. Minton? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you ask Mr. Dandar? 4 A No. 5 Q Did anybody ever tell you? 6 A No. 7 (End of Excerpt No. 1.) 8 EXCERPT NO. 2 9 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 10 TAKEN ON MAY 24, 1999 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q And you don't know, other than what you've read 13 on the Internet and the newspaper, what Mr. Minton believes 14 he is owed from the Estate for this money. Is that right? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Well, what do you understand from the Internet 17 and from the newspaper Mr. Minton has said publicly about 18 the obligations from the Estate to him with regard to the 19 money that he has given to the Estate? 20 A I haven't read anything on that. 21 Q If Mr. Dandar has told Judge Moody that he can 22 spend Mr. Minton's money to buy himself a car or other 23 personal items, is that okay with you? 24 A Yes. 25 Q That is okay with you?
Page 45 1 A Yes. 2 Q So that it is okay if somebody -- it is okay with 3 you, as the Personal Representative of the Estate of Lisa 4 McPherson, that the lawyer for the Estate would take money 5 from the Estate, that had been given to the Estate, to 6 finance a lawsuit and spend it for some personal item? 7 That is okay with you? 8 A He is doing the job. 9 (End of Excerpt No. 2.) 10 EXCERPT NO. 3 11 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 12 TAKEN ON MAY 24, 1999 13 Q Is it okay with you, as Personal Representative 14 of the Estate, if Mr. Dandar took funds that Mr. Minton 15 gave to the Estate and spent it on personal items for 16 himself? 17 A I don't feel like he would. 18 Q So do I take that to mean, if he did that, that 19 would violate a trust? 20 A Right. 21 Q So it wouldn't be okay with you, would it? 22 A Not really. 23 (End of Excerpt No. 3.) 24 EXCERPT NO. 4 25 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH
Page 46 1 TAKEN ON APRIL 20, 2002 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Is it your understanding that the money that 4 Robert Minton gave to Dandar & Dandar, PA, or to Ken 5 Dandar, your attorney is a loan to Ken Dandar -- 6 (The playing of the video was interrupted.) 7 THE COURT: Stop. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Stop. 9 THE COURT: Stop. I think something 10 happened. My next page doesn't seem to be what she's 11 saying. 12 MR. WEINBERG: We cut that out, right? 13 MR. LIROT: It's a different topic. 14 MS. SKJELSET: No, it's Tab 4. 15 MR. WEINBERG: It's Tab 4, so you have to go 16 to Tab 4. 17 THE COURT: Oh, I see. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't realized that when I 19 handed it to you. 20 THE COURT: Okay. I understand now. Oops, 21 I don't have Tab 4. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. It's further down in 23 there. 24 THE COURT: Okay. I now see it. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I think I know why we did it
Page 47 1 that way, because we divided by witness. 2 THE COURT: You can go ahead and play it 3 right from where it is, because I remember what she 4 said, and I see it here. 5 MS. SKJELSET: Okay. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 EXCERPT NO. 4 (RESUMED) 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q -- or the PA? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did he give any money ever to the Estate? 12 A No. 13 (End of Excerpt No. 4.) 14 EXCERPT NO. 5 15 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 16 TAKEN ON APRIL 20, 2002 17 BY MR. MOXON: 18 Q You became aware of that through a conversation 19 with Mr. Dandar, that he had received $250,000 in March? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And what was your understanding of what he was 22 going to do with that money? 23 A Well, I assume he was going to pay bills, just 24 like he had with the other money. 25 Q Pay bills in this case?
Page 48 1 A Right. 2 Q Okay. That's everything he was going to do with 3 it, right? 4 A That's what I assumed. We didn't discuss what he 5 was going to do with it. 6 Q But that was your understanding -- 7 A Right. 8 Q -- of what he would do. And with the $500,000 9 back in May of 2000, you became aware of that because 10 Mr. Dandar told you, right? 11 A Right. 12 Q And it was your understanding that he was going 13 to cover expenses in this case with that money, right? 14 A Right. 15 Q And that's all he was going to do with it, right? 16 MR. DANDAR: Objection; attorney-client 17 privilege. 18 JUDGE BEACH: Overruled. 19 A As far as I know. 20 BY MR. MOXON: 21 Q Okay. I mean, you didn't think somebody was 22 going to go out and buy a warehouse with it or something, 23 did you? 24 A No. 25 (End of Excerpt No. 5.)
Page 49 1 EXCERPT NO. 6 2 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 3 TAKEN ON APRIL 20, 2002 4 BY MR. MOXON: 5 Q Ms. Liebreich, you're the Personal Representative 6 of the Estate, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q You're responsible for the assets of the Estate, 9 correct? 10 A Assets? 11 Q Assets. 12 A The Estate has no assets. 13 Q So you don't consider you're responsible for 14 anything the Estate may or may not have? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Isn't this lawsuit an asset of the Estate? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. You know that money has been provided for 19 the use of the Estate to fund this case, correct? 20 A That's personal -- that was personal loans. 21 Q Personal loans to who? 22 A To Ken, the way I understood it. 23 (End of Excerpt No. 6.) 24 EXCERPT NO. 7 25 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH
Page 50 1 TAKEN ON APRIL 20, 2002 2 BY MR. MOXON: 3 Q Well, you keep files with respect to this case 4 though, right? 5 A I have some files, yes, uh-huh. 6 (The playing of the video was interrupted.) 7 THE COURT: I can't find it. 8 MR. WEINBERG: That's No. 7. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. Is this where she 10 said how big her files are? I wondering when she 11 said, "I've got this much," I thought to myself, I 12 wonder how much that is, because I know how much I've 13 got. 14 MR. DANDAR: She only has the important 15 things. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead now. I'm up 17 with you. 18 EXCERPT NO. 7 (RESUMED) 19 BY MR. MOXON: 20 Q Well, you keep files with respect to this case, 21 though, right? 22 A I have some files, yes, un-huh. 23 Q All right. I mean, you get copies of -- 24 A Right. 25 Q -- of everything that's filed in this case, don't
Page 51 1 you? 2 A I believe I do, yes. 3 Q And you get copies of motions before they are 4 filed, right? 5 A Right. 6 Q And Mr. Dandar discusses with you what he does in 7 this case before he does it, right? 8 MR. DANDAR: Objection; Attorney-client. 9 JUDGE BEACH: Well, I don't think that 10 disclose -- requests a disclosure of the communication 11 itself. Overruled. 12 BY MR. MOXON: 13 Q Is that right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And, in fact, you specifically approved the 16 amendments to the complaint in this case, didn't you? 17 A I'm sure I did. 18 Q You specifically told Mr. Dandar that you wanted 19 him to amend the complaint, didn't you, to add David 20 Miscavige and other Church leaders? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You instructed him to do that? 23 A We discussed it, and I thought it was a good 24 idea. 25 Q So you instructed him to go ahead and do it?
Page 52 1 A Yes. 2 Q But you didn't have any facts, did you, with 3 respect to amending the complaint, just what somebody told 4 you? 5 A I didn't have any facts, no. 6 Q Well, when the complaint was amended in 1999, you 7 didn't have any specific evidence as to the amendments that 8 were made in the complaint, did you? 9 A Just some affidavits that I had read. 10 Q What was that, Mr. Prince's affidavit? 11 A Yes, and I read some others. I don't remember 12 them all. 13 (End of Excerpt No. 7.) 14 MR. WEINBERG: Now we're on page -- 15 THE COURT: I see two 8s. 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes, two 8s. 17 MS. SKJELSET: The same clip? 18 THE COURT: We'll start with the first one, 19 maybe. 20 MS. SKJELSET: That's right. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 EXCERPT NO. 8-A 23 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 24 TAKEN ON MAY 24, 1999 25 BY MR. WEINBERG:
Page 53 1 Q Now, have you or your family agreed to donate the 2 bulk of any recovery to cult awareness groups? 3 A We discussed it, yes. 4 Q Who -- 5 A Fannie wanted us to if there was anything. 6 Q Who has discussed it? 7 A My family. 8 Q Well, who in your family? 9 A Ann and Fan- -- Lee and Sam -- 10 Q So -- 11 A -- and myself. 12 Q And is there a written agreement as to that? 13 A No written agreement. 14 Q Well, how much have you -- how much have you all 15 decided to donate to cult awareness groups? 16 A It's a substantial amount. 17 Q Well, how much? 18 A We have no set amount. 19 Q Well, have you reached some understanding with 20 your beneficiaries? 21 A We have agreed that that's what Fannie would have 22 wanted, and that's what we want to do. 23 Q And how do you know that that's what Fannie would 24 have wanted you to do? 25 A Because she stated that she wanted --
Page 54 1 Q Stated to whom? 2 A To us. 3 Q When? 4 A Before she died. 5 Q And when did you and the other -- and your other 6 siblings reach this agreement? 7 A When did we reach the agreement? 8 Q Yes, to -- 9 A I don't remember when it was. 10 Q -- distribute a substantial portion of any 11 recovery to a cult awareness group. 12 A Well, a few months ago or whatever. I don't 13 remember the date. 14 Q Well -- 15 A We have nothing written. 16 Q What were the circumstances that you all reached 17 this decision? 18 A Well, we just decided to do that. 19 Q Well, did somebody ask you to do that? 20 A No. No. 21 Q Did -- did you pass that on to Mr. Minton? 22 A No. I've never discussed it with him. 23 Q Did you authorize your attorney to -- to tell 24 Mr. Minton that you had -- the family had reached that 25 agreement?
Page 55 1 A Oh, we told Ken. I don't know what he -- you 2 know, I didn't -- I don't know what he -- I just told him. 3 Q I think my question was, Did you authorize anyone 4 on your behalf to tell Mr. Minton -- 5 A No. 6 Q -- about this agreement? 7 A No. 8 Q Have you seen media reports about this agreement? 9 A No. 10 Q In a -- in a -- are you aware that Mr. Minton 11 announced on the radio in December of 1997 that "the family 12 of Lisa McPherson has agreed and I have announced" -- he 13 said, "I have announced this to the New York Times 14 yesterday that the bulk of the funds they get out of this 15 wrongful death suit will be donated to a cult awareness 16 group so there won't be any more Lisa McPhersons"? 17 Are you aware of that? 18 A I don't remember, but we did discuss -- discuss 19 that. 20 Q Well, did your family authorize Mr. Minton to 21 make that announcement -- 22 A No. 23 Q -- to the public? 24 A No. 25 Q And do you know how Mr. Minton found out about
Page 56 1 that? 2 A No. 3 Q Is it correct that your decision was made on or 4 about December 8th of 1997? 5 A It could have been. I don't remember the dates. 6 (End of Excerpt 8-A.) 7 EXCERPT 8-B 8 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 9 TAKEN ON MAY 24, 1999 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Is it an accurate description of your agreement 12 that -- is it correct that you, on behalf of the Estate of 13 Lisa McPherson, have agreed to donate the bulk of any money 14 that you get out of this case to a cult awareness group? 15 Is that accurate? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And has that been discussed with your other 18 siblings? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And have they agreed to that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And have you advised the probate court of that 23 agreement? 24 A No. 25 Q And is that agreement in writing anywhere?
Page 57 1 A No. 2 Q What cult awareness group? 3 A Lisa McPherson. 4 Q Lisa McPherson what? 5 A Memorial. It's to help other people. 6 Q Well, is it FACTNet? 7 A No. 8 Q Is that who you agreed to give the money to? 9 A No. 10 Q There is a cult awareness group named Lisa 11 McPherson? 12 A I want one. Fannie wanted one. 13 Q All right. Well, is there a particular person 14 that you had in mind, you and your siblings had in mind, 15 that you would give the bulk of the proceeds from any 16 recovery? 17 A Well, we haven't truly decided yet. 18 Q All right. So there's no one group that you 19 focused on or one person or persons? 20 A No. 21 Q Is that right? 22 A Right. 23 (End of Excerpt No. 8-B.) 24 EXCERPT NO. 9 25 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH
Page 58 1 TAKEN ON MAY 24, 1999 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Let's go on and read this, since Mr. Dandar won't 4 authorize you to tell us whether or not you authorized him 5 to do this. 6 Mr. Minton says on the Internet that ". . . we 7 must remember Fannie McPherson's last deathbed instructions 8 to Ken Dandar." 9 Let me ask you first of all, do you have any idea 10 how Mr. Minton would know what your sister said at the end 11 of her life to Mr. Dandar or anyone else? 12 A No. 13 Q Quote, "Ken, I want you to let the whole world 14 know what Scientology did to Lisa," end quote. 15 Then he goes on and says, "Well, Scientology, I 16 want to let them know as well, and you undoubtedly know 17 that, judging from my excellent performance at the press 18 conference I held in front of the Pinellas Criminal Court 19 yesterday for the large press contingent. 20 "To further that aim, last week I promised Lisa's 21 family and Ken Dandar all the financial support necessary 22 to finally make Scientology take responsibility for the 23 purposeful punishment and torture inflicted on Lisa 24 McPherson. Mr. Dandar received a further check yesterday 25 for 100,000."
Page 59 1 Is that true, that in December of '98 Mr. Dandar 2 got another check for $100,000 for the Estate of Lisa 3 McPherson? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And how do you know that? 6 A I think he told me. 7 Q "He" being Mr. Dandar? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And did you, as indicated in this Internet 10 posting, or some family member have a discussion with 11 Mr. Minton in or about December of 1998? 12 A Well, I talked to him when we were there in 13 December, but I don't remember our discussion. 14 Q Okay. Is Mr. Minton's -- if you will, just 15 listen to this question. 16 Is Mr. Minton's agreement to finance this suit or 17 help finance this suit dependent upon your agreement or the 18 Estate's agreement and its beneficiaries to donate the bulk 19 of any recovery to a cult awareness group, as far as you 20 understand? 21 A Not to my knowledge. 22 Q And do you know in your mind and from the 23 discussions with your siblings, the other beneficiaries, 24 what represents in your mind "the bulk of"? 25 What percentage of the recovery?
Page 60 1 A No. 2 Q Do you have -- I mean, does that mean the bulk 3 of, most of? 4 A Possibly, yes. 5 Q Is that "possibly" or "probably"? 6 A Depending on expenses and everything. 7 Q Well, let's just assume for a moment that the 8 expenses are paid off the top and whatever Mr. Dandar is 9 entitled to is paid. 10 What is left over would otherwise go, as I 11 understand it, to the beneficiaries. Is that right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. And as to what is left over after 14 Mr. Dandar is paid and the expenses are paid, what have you 15 discussed would represent the bulk of that as going to a 16 cult awareness group? What percent of what is left over? 17 A We didn't set a set figure. We have no 18 set percentage or anything. 19 Q In your mind, is that more than 50 percent, "the 20 bulk of"? 21 A Possibly. 22 Q Is it more than 75 percent? 23 A I doubt that. I don't know. 24 Q Have you made a commitment to anyone to donate 25 the bulk of any recovery to a cult awareness group?
Page 61 1 A No. 2 Q Has anybody on behalf of the Estate made a 3 commitment to anyone? 4 A No. 5 Q As far as you know, has your lawyer? 6 A As far as I know, no. 7 (End of Excerpt No. 9.) 8 MR. WEINBERG: This is Sam Davis, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. What number is this, 10? 11 MR. WEINBERG: 10, yes. 12 EXCERPT NO. 10 13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SAM DARDEN DAVIS 14 TAKEN ON MAY 25, 1999 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q Have -- have you agreed to give the bulk of the 17 funds that would be recovered in this lawsuit that has been 18 filed about Lisa's death to anti-cult groups? Have you 19 agreed to do that? 20 A I agreed that if my sister Dell thinks that's a 21 good idea, I agreed with her. 22 Q And when did you make that agreement? 23 A One night -- two nights -- well, the day I came 24 here and we were looking at some albums, and we -- some 25 pictures, and we just started discussing it.
Page 62 1 Q So you hadn't discussed it before that at all? 2 A No. 3 Q No one had mentioned to you any concept of 4 contributing the bulk of the proceeds from the lawsuit to 5 an anti-cult group? 6 A No. 7 Q And -- and who was at this meeting Sunday night? 8 A My sister, Lee, and Dell. Myself. I think Ann 9 was there also, I think. 10 Q Was anybody else there? 11 A No. 12 Q Now, how long -- how did this meeting come about? 13 A Greeting me from coming in and a family 14 get-together. 15 Q At whose house was it? 16 A My sister Lee. 17 (End of Excerpt No. 10.) 18 MR. WEINBERG: This is Ann Carlson, No. 11. 19 EXCERPT NO. 11 20 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ANN CARLSON 21 TAKEN ON MAY 24, 1999 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q Has Dell consulted with you with regard to 24 decisions that have been made in the case? 25 A No, she hasn't. The only thing we've discussed
Page 63 1 was -- and we discussed this recently -- that when there 2 was a settlement that the majority of the money would go 3 toward a foundation for Lisa McPherson, to prevent things 4 like this happening to anyone else. 5 That was her mother's wish, and we wished to 6 carry that out -- 7 Q And -- 8 A -- and we wouldn't want to see anybody tortured 9 and killed like we feel she was. 10 Q And when did you talk to Dell about that? 11 A We talked about it last night. 12 Q Did you talk about it today during a break in 13 this deposition? 14 A No, we did not, because she said she was not to 15 discuss anything that went on in here. 16 Q You just happened to talk about giving money to a 17 cult awareness group last night? 18 A Yes, we did. We stayed up late. We had a 19 discussion, and that's what we decided. 20 Q And how did that come up, that you would be 21 discussing whether or not the beneficiaries would be 22 contributing the bulk of the proceeds from any resolution 23 of this case to a cult awareness group? 24 A The reason it came up is because we thought that 25 this has been a long, drawn-out process, and it has not
Page 64 1 been a nice thing for us from the start of it. And we just 2 don't want to see someone else have to go through what 3 we've gone through. 4 Q What does that have to do with you having this 5 discussion with Dell last night? 6 A I don't know who started it, but we were just 7 sitting around talking, and we just -- it came up, and we 8 discussed it. 9 Q Well, who brought it up? 10 A I don't recall who brought it up, to be honest 11 with you. 12 Q And how did it come up? Why would you even be 13 discussing whether or not you would be donating proceeds to 14 a cult awareness group? 15 A Why would we discuss anything? 16 Q Well, why would you -- why did you discuss that? 17 A We wanted to, I suppose. 18 Q Well, who was there for this discussion? 19 A All of us. 20 Q Who is "all of us"? 21 A My brother, my sisters, and myself. No one else. 22 (End of Excerpt No. 11.) 23 MR. WEINBERG: And this is Lee Skelton. 24 MR. MOXON: No. 25 MS. SKJELSET: Skipped one.
Page 65 1 MR. WEINBERG: What? Oh, there's still more 2 of Ann Carlson. I'm sorry, your Honor. 3 EXCERPT NO. 12 4 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ANN CARLSON 5 TAKEN ON MAY 25, 1999 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q Well, what do you want to get out of this 8 lawsuit? 9 A To be honest with you -- I shouldn't use that 10 word -- money has not been a concern. 11 Q Well, my concern is, What do you want to get out 12 of this lawsuit? 13 What is your goal to get out of this lawsuit? 14 A I really don't have a goal. We're more 15 interested in exposing Scientology than we are money. 16 Q Exposing what about Scientology? 17 A Their methods of handling their members when they 18 don't conform. 19 Q What else? What else do you want to expose about 20 Scientology? 21 A Well, what I've read about them, I don't agree 22 with anything. 23 Q Anything else that you'd like to tell us that you 24 want to expose about Scientology? 25 A Well, the -- I'd like for the whole world to know
Page 66 1 about them, because they're trying to take over the world, 2 so why not? 3 Q Well, what do you want the whole world to know? 4 A To know that they're operating under the guise of 5 religion, and to me, they're not a religion. They're a 6 money-making business. That's how they pay all these 7 high-powered attorneys. 8 (End of Excerpt No. 12.) 9 MR. WEINBERG: So 13 is Lee Skelton. 10 EXCERPT NO. 13 11 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LEE SKELTON 12 TAKEN ON MAY 25, 1999 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q Have you authorized Mr. Dandar, your sister Dell, 15 or anyone on behalf of you to -- to announce that the bulk 16 of any funds that were received from this lawsuit against 17 the Church of Scientology will be donated to a cult 18 awareness or an anti-Scientology group? 19 A Yes. I agree that a substantial amount should be 20 donated to the Lisa McPherson Cult Memorial Fund. 21 Q And when did you -- have you agreed in writing? 22 A No. 23 Q When did you make such an agreement? 24 A An agreement? There's been no agreement made. 25 We've discussed it.
Page 67 1 Q Well, when did you discuss it? 2 A Just recently. 3 Q Recently when? 4 A Well, we've -- we've thought about it and talked 5 about it -- 6 Q Where -- 7 A -- you know, recently, but -- just recently, in 8 the last week or so. 9 Q Well, did there -- where -- where did you -- 10 A In the last few days. 11 Q Well, who did you talk with about it? 12 A My siblings. 13 Q Where? 14 A In my home. 15 Q When? 16 A Well, I think it was yesterday or day before or 17 something. 18 Q What time of day? 19 A Well, we were doing a lot of talking in the 20 evening, at night. 21 Q Were you talking -- I'm sorry. Were -- were you 22 talking about these depositions coming up? 23 A Well, we just knew we had to go to deposition. 24 Q What were you talking about with your siblings? 25 A Well, different things.
Page 68 1 Q Well, tell me those things. 2 A Well, I can't remember -- 3 Q Well, try. 4 A I mean, what do you want to know about them? 5 Q I want to know what you were talking about with 6 your siblings that -- a couple of days ago when they were 7 in your house. 8 A I think it was last night, we were talking about 9 the memorial fund. It was either last night or the night 10 before last. 11 Q All right. So tell me about what you talked 12 about. 13 A That we definitely wanted to -- if -- if, you 14 know, anything was -- benefitted, a substantial amount 15 would go to the memorial fund. 16 Q And who -- who first mentioned this? 17 A Well, I don't know. I think we -- we were all in 18 agreement. 19 Q Well, who first mentioned it? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q Had you heard of it before? 22 A We've talked about it before. 23 Q You've talked about it with whom before? 24 A Dell, that I know of -- 25 Q Well, how long ago did you --
Page 69 1 A -- and my brother. 2 Q Well, your brother testified in his deposition 3 that he'd never heard about it before. 4 A Well -- 5 Q Do you remember talking about it? 6 A Hmm? 7 Q Do you remember talking with him about it before 8 Sunday? 9 A Well, I don't -- well, I thought we had all 10 discussed it through each other. 11 Q Well, when do you remember the idea was first 12 discussed? When did you first hear about it? 13 A Right after Lisa died and we knew there was going 14 to be a lawsuit. 15 Q Well, she died in 1995. So was it in 1995 that 16 you talked about it? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Well, who did you talk about it with? 19 A Well, probably Dell, mostly. 20 Q Was it -- was it her idea? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did Dell tell you that -- 23 A Yes. Definitely Dell wanted -- 24 Q I hadn't finished my question. Definitely Dell 25 what?
Page 70 1 A Wants the memorial fund. 2 Q Okay. And definitely Dell wants the memorial 3 fund why? 4 A Because she wants -- she wants people to know 5 what happened to Lisa. 6 Q Well, what -- what she said was you were going -- 7 you were discussing donating the bulk of the proceeds, if 8 any, to the Lisa McPherson Cult Memorial Fund. 9 A Memorial Fund. That's what I would call it. I 10 don't know what anybody else would want to call it. We 11 haven't decided on that yet. 12 Q Well, regardless of what you call it, what is it 13 supposed to do, as discussed -- 14 A It's supposed to -- 15 Q -- amongst the family? 16 A -- help people with cult awareness. 17 Q Have you been in touch with any cult awareness 18 groups? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know what a cult awareness group is? 21 A Well, it's to let the people know what can happen 22 if they get in a cult. 23 Q Well, who would have control over this money? 24 A Who would have control over it? 25 Q Over the money. If you put money in this cult
Page 71 1 awareness group or whatever you want to call it -- 2 A I don't know. 3 Q -- who would have control of it? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Have you discussed that? 6 A No, we haven't discussed that. 7 Q Is the object of this fund that you're talking 8 about to destroy Scientology? Is that the object of it? 9 A Well, if it takes -- that's what it takes, to 10 destroy whoever would kill somebody, hide -- posing as a 11 church. 12 Q Is that what you want to do with any money from 13 this lawsuit, to make sure that Scientology doesn't exist 14 anymore? Is that what you want to do? 15 A That would be nice. 16 Q Is that what Dell wants to do, as far as you 17 know? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q What has she told you? You said, "She definitely 20 wants this money --" 21 A She definitely wants a fund for Lisa. 22 Q To? Destroy Scientology? 23 A She never said that. 24 Q Well, what has she said to you the purpose of the 25 fund would be?
Page 72 1 A She -- for this to be carried on and to let 2 people know. 3 Q What to be carried on? 4 A That people can be killed in cults, tortured to 5 death. 6 Q Well, what is a cult, in your mind? 7 A A cult is where -- I believe is where someone 8 deliberately takes control of your mind and causes you to 9 do things that you wouldn't ordinarily do. 10 Q And -- and an -- an example of a cult? 11 A Is Scientology. 12 Q Because? 13 A Because they killed my niece. 14 Q Any other reason? 15 A And because of what I've read, they're capable of 16 brainwashing people, bilking what money they can out of 17 them, pushing them out hotel windows, pushing them 18 overboard their ships. 19 Q And you believe that's what they do? 20 A Oh, definitely. 21 (End of Excerpt No. 13.) 22 MR. WEINBERG: And this is a brief clip from 23 Ann Carlson coming up. 24 EXCERPT NO. 14 25 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ANN CARLSON
Page 73 1 TAKEN ON JULY 27, 2000 2 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 3 Q What is your understanding of what the Lisa 4 McPherson Trust is? 5 A It's my understanding that it's to be set up for 6 counseling and to provide help for those that want to get 7 out of Scientology. 8 Q And who conveyed that understanding to you? 9 A I don't recall. 10 Q Now, do you recall testifying at your last 11 deposition that you and your sisters had a discussion about 12 how monies that might be obtained either in settlement or 13 from a judgment in this case would be contributed to a 14 foundation for Lisa McPherson to prevent things like this 15 happening to anyone else? Do you remember testifying to 16 that under oath? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is this trust, the Lisa McPherson Trust, is that 19 the foundation that you were referring to when you gave 20 that testimony? 21 A Yes. 22 Q All right. 23 (End of Excerpt No. 14.) 24 MR. WEINBERG: Back to Dell Liebreich, 15. 25 EXCERPT NO. 15
Page 74 1 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 2 TAKEN ON APRIL 20, 2002 3 BY MR. MOXON: 4 Q Now, you've testified previously about money 5 going to the Lisa McPherson Trust -- 6 MR. DANDAR: Objection. 7 Q -- at the end of this case, correct? 8 MR. DANDAR: Objection; violates Judge 9 Schaeffer's -- he even admits that it violates it by 10 saying she testified previously. 11 JUDGE BEACH: Go ahead. 12 A Yes. 13 BY MR. MOXON: 14 Q When you talked to your siblings and you all 15 agreed that some money at the end of the case would go to 16 the Lisa McPherson Trust -- 17 A I'm sorry. I can't hear you. 18 Q You talked to your siblings and you all agreed at 19 the end of the case that some funds would be provided to 20 the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct? 21 A Some funds will be provided in it? I don't 22 understand what you're talking about. 23 Q You and your siblings talked about it, that money 24 would be provided to the Lisa McPherson Trust at the end of 25 the case, correct?
Page 75 1 A Well, we hoped so. 2 Q Okay. What part of the proceeds, the expected 3 proceeds in this case, was supposed to go to the Lisa 4 McPherson Trust? 5 A None. 6 Q You just said some was going. Has that changed 7 now? 8 A Previously, I did. 9 Q When did that change? 10 A Well, some time ago. 11 Q When? 12 A When Mr. Minton started lying. 13 Q When was that? 14 A Just recently. 15 Q So you just recently decided to change that deal 16 and no money is going to go to LMT? 17 A That's my opinion. I haven't discussed it with 18 my siblings. 19 Q As far as you're concerned now, you're not going 20 to give any money to LMT because of what Mr. Minton has 21 testified about? 22 A I'm not sure. 23 Q That's your intention right now? 24 A It might be. 25 (End of Excerpt No. 15.)
Page 76 1 EXCERPT NO. 16 2 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 3 TAKEN ON APRIL 20, 2002 4 BY MR. MOXON: 5 Q Now, when you were a board member of LMT, was it 6 a for-profit company or a not-for-profit? 7 A It was for a profit, as far as I know. I didn't 8 know it ever changed. 9 Q Did you know at the very beginning it was a 10 for-profit company? 11 A No -- yes, at -- no, I'm sorry. A nonprofit. 12 I'm getting confused. 13 Q Yes. 14 A Nonprofit. As far as I know, that's what it was, 15 a nonprofit. 16 Q Yes. Who told you -- 17 A Wait a minute. Wait a minute. It was fixed so 18 that people couldn't inquire on -- certain people, like 19 Scientology, couldn't find out who was donating. Would 20 that be nonprofit? No, for profit. Whatever. 21 Q Where did you -- where did you learn that? 22 A That's what Mr. Minton said. 23 Q Yes. But you knew about that before, though, 24 anyway, didn't you? 25 A Yes.
Page 77 1 Q Yes. Where did you learn that before? 2 A That's what Mr. Minton said. I heard him say it. 3 That's all I know. 4 Q Before yesterday where had -- 5 A Oh, before yesterday. Oh, back, way back, when 6 he was starting to do the trust. 7 Q So back when the trust was set up, which was late 8 '99? 9 A A couple years ago. 10 Q Like November of '99? 11 A Right. 12 Q You were told that it was set up in such a way to 13 keep people from inquiring into its finances, right? 14 A Right. 15 Q Yes. And who told you that? Mr. Minton? 16 A Mr. Minton. I heard him say it. He didn't tell 17 me specifically, I don't think. 18 Q Was that at the board meeting you attended? 19 A I think he made it at some meeting. I don't 20 remember. 21 Q Out at LMT? 22 A Probably. That's -- I guess he talked about it 23 at that board meeting. I don't remember. 24 Q You agreed with that, didn't you, that setup? 25 A He was doing it.
Page 78 1 Q You didn't have a disagreement with it, did you? 2 A No. 3 (End of Excerpt No. 16.) 4 EXCERPT NO. 17 5 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 6 TAKEN ON APRIL 20, 2002 7 BY MR. MOXON: 8 Q When did you resign from the LMT board? Well, 9 let me ask first, did you resign from the LMT board? 10 A Yes. 11 Q When was that? 12 A I believe it was -- I think it was in August last 13 year. 14 Q And you were instructed to resign by somebody, 15 weren't you. 16 A Instructed by who? 17 Q You were told by somebody you had to resign, 18 right? Because it was too dangerous for you to be 19 connected to LMT? 20 A Well, I wanted -- I didn't want to really be on 21 there after a while anyway, but . . . 22 Q But? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. Who told you to resign from the board? 25 A Ken told me he thought I should.
Page 79 1 Q And it was getting too messy for the case for you 2 to be involved with LMT, right? 3 A Right. 4 Q So you didn't actually have a dispute with Minton 5 or LMT at the time of your resignation, did you? 6 A No. 7 (End of Excerpt No. 17.) 8 EXCERPT NO. 18 9 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DELL LIEBREICH 10 TAKEN ON APRIL 20, 2002 11 BY MR. MOXON: 12 Q Did you authorize a Web site called Lisa 13 McPherson.com to be put up by a woman named Deanna Holmes? 14 A Did I authorize it? 15 Q Right. 16 A I think it's a real nice site. 17 Q Ms. Liebreich, did you authorize a Web site 18 called Lisa McPherson.com to be put up by Deanna Holmes? 19 A I believe I did. I'm not sure. There was 20 nothing in writing, I don't think. 21 Q Who did you tell? 22 A I think I told her. I'm not sure. 23 Q You've been in communication with Deanna Holmes? 24 A No, no, no, I didn't. I told Ken I thought it 25 was a good idea.
Page 80 1 Q So Ken, you told Ken to do that? 2 A Yes, if I remember correctly. 3 Q Sorry? 4 A If I remember correctly. 5 Q Are you in communication with Deanna Holmes at 6 all? 7 A Not -- not -- I e-mailed her once or twice, 8 that's all. 9 Q What about? 10 A About the Internet and the site. 11 Q She didn't ask for your permission then any 12 further to put up anything on the Web site? 13 A I don't think so. 14 (End of Excerpt No. 18.) 15 MR. WEINBERG: I think that's it. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. WEINBERG: What I'm going to do, Judge, 18 I'm going to hand the court reporter these 19 transcripts, tabbed, and that should be able to -- if 20 that's okay, give it to her, and she should be able -- 21 THE COURT: I'm sure that will be very 22 helpful to her. 23 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 24 THE COURT: She might have gotten it all, 25 but just in case, she'll have that to fill in any
Page 81 1 gaps. And I did follow along, and it did look as if 2 the transcript was correct. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I think it is. 4 THE COURT: Which is always nice. 5 MR. WEINBERG: It is nice, you know. 6 Technology. We have as our next exhibit -- 7 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. It's 10:30, 8 we started at 9:00, why don't we take our break? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Right. We'll talk about it. 10 MR. DANDAR: Could we have those excerpts 11 marked as an exhibit for the defense? 12 THE COURT: Have what? 13 MR. DANDAR: These excerpts marked as an 14 exhibit -- 15 THE COURT: Sure. 16 MR. DANDAR: -- so that we have a written 17 exhibit rather than just -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: It's going to be in the -- 19 I've given her the transcripts. She's going to 20 transcribe it into the record. 21 THE COURT: Did you give the clerk a copy? 22 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't, but I gave it to 23 the court reporter. She's going to type it in. I 24 mean, I don't care. 25 THE COURT: Actually, it's all going to be
Page 82 1 in the record. 2 MR. DANDAR: Right. Okay. 3 THE COURT: That's what the court reporter 4 is going to transcribe, so we really don't need a 5 transcript. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. 7 THE COURT: You can check the transcript and 8 make sure that it is the same as this. But I looked 9 very carefully. It looked like it was exactly the 10 same. 11 MR. WEINBERG: We're giving you the full 12 transcripts anyway. 13 THE COURT: Right. The full transcripts 14 will be in there. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to take 17 about a 15-minute break this morning. 18 And what's happening next, by the way? I 19 thought that's all you were going to do this morning. 20 MR. WEINBERG: And one exhibit. I think 21 Mr. Dandar has a witness. 22 THE COURT: You have a witness? 23 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I do. I hope she's here 24 pretty soon. 25 THE COURT: All right. Well, does that mean
Page 83 1 we need to take a longer break and wait for her? Or 2 is she here? 3 MR. DANDAR: I don't see her yet. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we do this -- 5 THE COURT: Who is it? 6 MR. DANDAR: It's Teresa Summers. 7 THE COURT: Do you want to get on the phone 8 and talk to her? Evidently she's not here. I don't 9 want to come in just to -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we take the 15 11 minutes, and when she comes, we'll come get you. 12 THE COURT: Sounds good. 13 THE BAILIFF: Court stands in recess until 14 10:45 by the courtroom clock. 15 (Break taken at 10:30 a.m. until 11:09 a.m.) 16 THE COURT: Where is your witness? 17 MR. DANDAR: Well, she's not here. It's not 18 entirely my fault, because I was told that this 19 presentation would take all morning, so I told her to 20 get here before noon. And then this morning, when 21 they told me 45 minutes, I called her up and did speak 22 with her, and she was just getting into the shower. 23 And she lives in Dunedin. 24 THE COURT: Oh. Well, is there anything we 25 can do?
Page 84 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think Mr. Weinberg will 2 run in in any minute. He had one exhibit he wanted 3 to -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 (Mr. Weinberg entered.) 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 7 THE COURT: It's all right. I was just 8 saying, is there anything we can do while we're 9 waiting on -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, there was one thing. I 11 have to go back to my office for something else. I'm 12 going to excuse myself after I do this one thing and 13 leave it in the good hands of Mr. Moxon and 14 Mr. Fugate. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. WEINBERG: There was an exhibit that -- 17 that I'm marking, that I had the clerk mark as 186, 18 which is -- was turned over to us by the defense in 19 discovery and which is apropos to some of the 20 testimony we played, which is August 24th for -- 21 (Mr. Fugate spoke to Mr. Weinberg off the 22 record.) 23 MR. WEINBERG: By the plaintiff, I mean. It 24 was turned over to the plaintiff in discovery. We 25 played the excerpt from Ms. Liebreich's deposition.
Page 85 1 And on August 24th, 2001, Ms. Liebreich sent a fax, as 2 you can see from the top, to the board of directors of 3 the Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc.: 4 "Due to personal reasons I hereby give 5 notice of my immediate resignation as a member of the 6 board of directors." 7 And of course, that was the same day that 8 the Merrett -- the "well was dry" fax came in about 9 Mr. Minton. We offer into evidence Defense 186. 10 THE COURT: Any objection? 11 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 12 THE COURT: It'll be received. 13 MR. WEINBERG: And with your permission -- 14 THE COURT: You may be excused. 15 MR. WEINBERG: -- I will go to my office. 16 THE COURT: Enjoy -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: Thanks. 18 THE COURT: -- your day off. 19 MR. WEINBERG: It's sort of hardly a day 20 off, but a day off from court. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Thanks. 23 THE COURT: You say it was the same date as 24 the e-mail -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: From Mr. Merrett.
Page 86 1 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 3 THE COURT: No, I've got it, and I've seen 4 it several times. So I just want to make sure. You 5 had said it was the same day. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Same day. 7 THE COURT: Okay. When did you get her this 8 morning? 9 MR. DANDAR: It was just after you came into 10 the courtroom. 11 THE COURT: 9:30? 9:15? 12 MR. DANDAR: It was about then. 13 THE COURT: And she was getting in the 14 shower? 15 MR. DANDAR: She was just getting in the 16 shower. She's got her daughter off to either day care 17 or somewhere. 18 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, the Merrett e-mail 19 is Plaintiff's Exhibit 45. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. DANDAR: I could suggest we could take 22 an early lunch, but that would be really early. 23 THE COURT: It's awfully early. Let's -- 24 well, I'll tell you what. Why don't we do this. 25 Let's go ahead -- I don't mind going to lunch at
Page 87 1 11:30. Let's do a -- 12:30. Let's do -- let's do 2 until a quarter till 1:00. Just go early, do whatever 3 you want to do. That'll give us time. So we'll go 4 ahead and be in recess until a quarter till 1:00. 5 THE BAILIFF: All rise, please. Court will 6 be in recess until 12:45 by the courtroom clock. 7 (The morning session ended at 11:13 a.m.) 8 ____________________________________ 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Page 88 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 10th day of June, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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