Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 1 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 1 of 1 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Teresa Summers. 17 DATE: June 10, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25
2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 12 Organization. 13 MR. LEE FUGATE 14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization. 17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 19 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 20 Organization. 21 22 23 24 25
3 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 3 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 4 Attorney for Robert Minton. 5 6 ___________________________________ 7 8 9 INDEX TO TESTIMONY OF TERESA SUMMERS 10 Direct Examination - by Mr. Dandar 4 Cross-Examination - by Mr. Moxon 119 11 Redirect Examination - by Mr. Dandar 184 Recross-Examination by Mr. Moxon 188 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
4 1 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Dandar, did your witness 2 arrive? 3 MR. DANDAR: Yes, she did. 4 THE COURT: You may call your next witness. 5 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff calls Teresa 6 Summers. 7 THE BAILIFF: Ms. Summers, would you step up 8 here, stand here, face the judge, raise your right 9 hand. 10 (Oath administered to the witness by the 11 Court.) 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE BAILIFF: Please be seated in the witness 14 stand. Watch your step. Speak in a loud, clear 15 voice for the Court. 16 Your Honor, the witness is sworn and seated. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. You may proceed. 18 ____________________________________ 19 TERESA SUMMERS, 20 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 21 and testified as follows: 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Please state your name and spell your last name. 25 A Teresa Summers. Last name is S-U-M-M-E-R-S.
5 1 Q And are you a resident of Pinellas County? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How long have you lived in Pinellas County? 4 A Six years. 5 Q Okay. And what is the extent of your formal 6 education? 7 A High school. 8 Q Okay. When did you become a member of the Church 9 of Scientology? 10 A In, Mmm, 1979 or '80. 11 Q Okay. And where was that at? 12 A In Cincinnati, Ohio. 13 Q Okay. And how long did you remain a member of the 14 Church of Scientology? 15 A Until 1999. 16 Q Okay. In that twenty years, were you a member of 17 the Sea Org? 18 A Yes, I was. 19 Q Okay. What was your highest rank? 20 A Post. Highest post -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- would be commanding officer of the Flag Land 23 Base. B-A-S-E. 24 Q Where is that located? 25 A Clearwater.
6 1 Q Okay. 2 THE COURT: What did you say, commanding 3 officer? 4 THE WITNESS: Right. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q And did you have a rank in the Sea Org? 7 A Right. But my rank was Petty Officer 3. 8 Q Okay. 9 THE COURT: Okay, already I'm lost. Commanding 10 officer is some title -- 11 THE WITNESS: It was a job. It wasn't really a 12 title. That was the job description. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay? 15 THE COURT: I got you. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q And as the commanding officer of the Flag Land 19 Base in Clearwater, what did you do? 20 A What I did -- Mmm, I basically acted as a 21 coordinating point for programs that were sent in for the 22 lower orgs, which would be the FSO and Flag crew. Honestly, 23 I wasn't the commanding officer for very long. I was 24 temporarily the commanding officer. The rest of my time I 25 was a programs officer. But it was -- it was sort of an
7 1 administrative coordination post. 2 Q Okay. Programs for the lower orgs, you said Flag 3 Service Organization? 4 A Right. 5 Q The defendant was a lower org than Land Base? 6 A Right. 7 Q What kind of programs? 8 A A lot of programs -- what we were running mostly 9 at that time were programs that were going into the 10 renovations. There was another organization called Sipro. 11 Q How do you spell that? 12 A S-I-P-R-O. 13 Q What does that stand for? 14 A I don't know. They were doing a lot of 15 renovations, all of the renovations, at the Ft. Harrison. 16 And we were getting programs and directions in from Int, 17 basically, and running -- spending a lot of time over there. 18 I spent a lot of time with the commanding officer in the 19 beginning, making sure everything was done, just 20 coordinating everything, making sure that targets on the 21 programs -- like targets are steps on a program, making sure 22 they were done. There were some programs that went into the 23 technical divisions. Does that make sense? 24 THE COURT: You all have to keep your voices 25 down.
8 1 MR. DANDAR: Is your microphone on? Maybe that 2 will help. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 4 THE COURT: No. I can hear fine. 5 MR. DANDAR: I can't. I'm -- I have to follow 6 up with my questions. 7 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, your Honor, I just want 8 to get a time frame for this. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Well, go ahead. Give us a time frame. 11 A It was in '86 and '87. 12 Q What did you do after '87? 13 A You mean in the -- just generally? 14 Q At Flag Land Base. 15 A I left after '87. 16 Q Where did you go? 17 A I went to North Carolina. 18 Q Were you still in the Scientology? 19 A I was still in Scientology. I was not in Sea Org. 20 Q Okay. And when was the last time you were in Sea 21 Org? 22 A That was the only time I was in the Sea Org. 23 Q So, what, did you become a public Scientologist? 24 A Right. 25 THE COURT: When did you become a member of the
9 1 Sea Org? 2 THE WITNESS: In '86 when I joined at Flag, 3 that is when I became a member of the Sea Org. 4 THE COURT: You have been a member of the 5 Church since 1979 -- 6 THE WITNESS: Right. 7 THE COURT: -- and '80, but you didn't become a 8 member of the Sea Org until 1986? 9 THE WITNESS: Right. Right. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q So '86 to '88, am I right? 12 A No. I think '87. 13 Q So was that a year? 14 A About a year and a half. 15 Q All right. So before and after that, you 16 remained -- you were a public member of the Church? 17 A Right. 18 Q Okay. Now, you said -- you mentioned something 19 about getting the programs into Flag Land Base from Int? 20 A Right. 21 Q Is that I-N-T? 22 A Right. 23 Q What does that mean? 24 A That means I-N-T, international management. 25 Q Where are they located?
10 1 A Los Angeles. 2 Q And that is another Scientology entity? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And, also, we were running programs from another 6 organization called the Flag Command Bureau, which was also 7 in Los Angeles. We also got programs from them, as well. 8 They were also some kind of coordinating organization. 9 Q All right. And when you were receiving these 10 programs from Int Management LA, do you know what, if any, 11 position David Miscavige would have had at Int Management or 12 at Int? 13 A Right. You know, I just think of him as the head. 14 I think he's the COB, chairman of the board. Honestly, when 15 I think of him, he's just the head -- he's the head of the 16 Church. He has different posts and different name titles, 17 but I know he's chairman of the board. 18 He's also like top-ranking Sea Org member. I 19 don't know if that has a specific name or title, but -- 20 Q All right. Okay. And when you lived in 21 Clearwater, did you live in housing for staff? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And was the -- is there -- do you have any 24 knowledge of whether or not staffing housing in Clearwater 25 had any insect problems?
11 1 A Yes, they did. 2 Q What kind? 3 A Roaches. 4 Q Does it matter which staff housing complex you 5 were in? Or is there only one particular one that had roach 6 problems? 7 A No. It was roach problems in different buildings. 8 It was a matter of complaint that had to be dealt with. 9 Q Okay. Now, while you lived -- 10 THE COURT: I'll have to exclude some of you if 11 you -- you can't talk while this witness is on here 12 and disrupt counsel and disrupt the Court. 13 Go ahead. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Within your Scientology staff experience, were you 16 aware of policies of the Church of Scientology if someone 17 had become psychotic? 18 A Yes. I was aware of some of them. Yes. 19 Q Which ones were you aware of? 20 A Mmm, I was aware -- there is a Flag order that 21 talks about psychotics not being -- that you're not allowed 22 to keep them at the Ft. Harrison Hotel. So I was aware of 23 that. 24 And I was aware of just the basic Scientology 25 teaching, which is on courses that you take where they
12 1 discuss treatment of psychotics. 2 So I think that is about it really. 3 Q Okay. The Flag order that you mentioned, 4 psychotics cannot be kept at the Ft. Harrison Hotel -- 5 A Right. 6 Q -- do you know then where psychotics could be 7 kept? 8 A At that time? 9 Q Yes. 10 A I did not. 11 Q Okay. Do you know any Scientology policies that 12 require reporting up lines if a member becomes psychotic? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And what is your understanding of that policy? 15 A That -- that if any member notices someone 16 behaving in a Type III manner, it needs to be reported to 17 RTC. 18 Q RTC is where? 19 A Physically located in California. I don't know if 20 it's Los Angeles, but it's in California. 21 Q Okay. 22 A I forget what it's called. 23 Q And do you have an understanding of whether or 24 not, after reporting up lines to RTC, RTC would then become 25 involved with that person?
13 1 A Mmm, they would become involved to the extent of 2 like having reports made and following the progress and that 3 sort of thing, you know. 4 Q Okay. Do you know if there is any position 5 outside of the local Clearwater Flag, FSO, Flag Land Base, 6 that gets reports if someone is red flagged? 7 A Well -- 8 THE COURT: What is the term? 9 MR. DANDAR: Red flagged. 10 THE WITNESS: Red tagged. 11 THE COURT: Well, that doesn't mean anything to 12 me, either. 13 MR. MOXON: I object to relevance, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I don't know if it is relevant or 15 not. I don't know what it is. So let's hear what 16 it is. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Do you know what red tagged means? 19 A Yes, red tagged is when someone has an auditing 20 session. And if they do not do well, they don't have what 21 is called a floating needle at the end of the session, they 22 are not doing well, they are not happy, they are red tagged, 23 which is a note that is put on that PC, preclear. It has to 24 be taken care of within 24 or 48 hours to where they are, 25 you know, feeling good, their needle is floating and they
14 1 are happy about the session. 2 MR. MOXON: I do object to relevance then, your 3 Honor, if this is the basis. Move to strike. But I 4 object -- 5 THE COURT: Well, I think you may be right but 6 I need to see where this is going because I still 7 don't know where you are going with it. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Have you reviewed any of the records of Lisa 10 McPherson? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. Did you see any red tags on Lisa McPherson? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And what particular things did you see there? 15 MR. MOXON: Well, I do object, your Honor. 16 Apparently she's talking about having to review Lisa 17 McPherson's PC folders. 18 THE WITNESS: No. No. It was not in Lisa's PC 19 folders. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Okay. Where did you see it? 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 A Clearwater -- oops, sorry. 24 THE COURT: Go ahead. 25 A On the Clearwater Police Department investigative
15 1 disk. There is a red tag in there. There is a copy of a 2 little sheet of paper stapled to her folder that said "Lisa 3 McPherson red tag." And it had the date, which I believe 4 was September of '95. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Okay, do you know if that was before or after she 7 tested clear? 8 A No, I don't know. 9 Q Now, who gets report of that red tag? 10 A All -- all reports -- every Thursday at Flag -- 11 every Thursday at two, all stats are collected. That is a 12 stat. That actually detracts from a stat. 13 Q Detracts? 14 A Yes. If it is not handled, the whole unit can 15 lose their stats for a week and they all go into lower 16 conditions. They have to be taken care of. But -- but, as 17 a rule, at Flag, reports -- Flag reports all of its stats 18 from FSO. And Flag crew, at the time I was there, we did 19 all of them and sent them up to management every Thursday at 20 two. So they get all of the stats, all those kind of 21 reports. 22 Q How important is it to staff at Flag concerning 23 stats? 24 A Well, it is very important. 25 Q Explain that.
16 1 A When you are on staff, you are not paid really 2 very much at all. You are living very minimally. And if 3 the stats are down, that minimal lifestyle can even go 4 lower. 5 I know when I was there FSO -- 6 MR. MOXON: Objection. Relevance, your Honor. 7 I don't know what this possibly has to do with any 8 of the issues that are presented here in our 9 motions. She's talking about, you know, her -- I 10 guess how well she was living as a staff member 11 during 1986. 12 MR. DANDAR: It is going to be tied in -- 13 THE COURT: I'll overruled it for now. Go 14 ahead. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A All right. If -- if the stats go down, basically, 18 then people are put into lower conditions and you can lose 19 privileges. You can lose time off. You can lose time with 20 your children, whereas you only have a couple hours a day 21 with your child anyway. You know, you have very few 22 privileges. And you'll lose them. You can lose pay. So 23 it's really -- it's an important thing. 24 And -- and management will do missions. If -- if 25 Flag stats are down for several weeks in a row, they call it
17 1 a trend, if they are trending, like an emergency trend would 2 be very bad, they can send missions to come in. And it is 3 very frightening. They can take people to post, put people 4 into lowers, make them all eat rice and beans, and keep them 5 working hours and hours, people -- it just exhausts them. 6 It is very tenuous and difficult -- 7 Q Int -- I talked over you. I'm sorry, let's make 8 sure the record is clear. Int in California is separate and 9 distinct, at least on paper, from the corporation known as 10 Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization, Inc.? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. 13 A They are distinct. 14 Q But they can come in and remove people off their 15 post at Flag? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Now, there was some mention in an objection here 18 about you being on staff in '86, '87. Do you know if there 19 is any policies -- in your 20 years' experience as a member 20 of the Church of Scientology, getting out in '99, if there 21 is any policies that say that the writings of Mr. Hubbard 22 cannot be altered or changed after his death? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What is that? 25 A Well, there is more than one. I think that --
18 1 Mmm, the one that is most well known to Scientologists would 2 be Keeping Scientology Working, KSW 1. 3 And that policy talks about basically that it's 4 keeping the tech exactly as written, wrote, never changing 5 it, always applying it exactly. And, in fact, I believe in 6 that policy Hubbard talks about how he had -- Mmm, had tried 7 to take advice from other people and work with other people 8 on the tech, but their advice always was just -- just 9 resulted in, you know, nothing usable, it was no good. 10 So -- so his solution was everything must come 11 from him, it's only him who comes up with the correct 12 policies, so we always have to -- in technology, always have 13 to apply it exactly. 14 Q Now, in addition to Int Management reporting 15 psychotics as PTS/SP Type III, do you know any policies 16 within your experience you have to report psychotic breaks 17 or PTS Type III breaks -- I think you already said that? 18 A I already said that. 19 Q Do you know why you need to report psychotics to 20 RTC and Int Management? 21 A Do I know now? Or at the time? 22 Q Did you know in your 20 years? 23 A Mmm, you know, I have to delineate here because 24 there were things that I know now that in all that time I 25 didn't know.
19 1 Q Okay. 2 A And that may be one of them. You know, when I was 3 in, honestly, I wasn't aware of so many people that were 4 having psychotic breaks -- 5 Q Okay. 6 A -- you know. You don't hear about it. You are 7 not even allowed to talk about people who are doing poorly 8 on auditing. You can't do that so you don't know. It is 9 very kept quiet, you know. So I knew it as sort of a 10 theoretical thing. 11 If someone is crazy, yes, you would report it. 12 Why? You know, then at the time I would think so they could 13 be handled, whatever way that would be, so that whoever -- 14 whatever, that they could be handled, basically, you know. 15 It was a little bit different at Flag because -- 16 Q What is different at Flag? 17 A At Flag you would have the whole PR thing 18 happening, as well. 19 Q Well, explain that PR thing at Flag. 20 A At Flag, because -- because Clearwater is a very 21 important place for Scientology. It's -- Mmm, it's supposed 22 to be the first Scientology city, and Scientology works very 23 hard and has to kind of smooth the way and make it okay for 24 them to be there. They do what is called safe pointing 25 activities.
20 1 Q What is that? 2 A Safe pointing is when you go out into the 3 community and join groups. You join charitable groups or 4 the Chamber of Commerce, and you make -- you make 5 Scientology -- you know, give them an understanding of 6 Scientologists, so to speak, and make it okay for you to be 7 there, so that they're not as scrutinizing you, basically. 8 And so -- so you don't want anything happening in 9 Flag that will bring adverse attention onto the base at all. 10 At all. 11 Q What is the point -- what is the goal of this safe 12 pointing? 13 A Well, it's -- it's just a way to encroach into the 14 area, basically, because, you know, it's supposed to be 15 Scientology city. You make it safe to get in and you get -- 16 it's just a way to get in and so that you can -- so that you 17 can -- I'm trying to think of -- you are just making it safe 18 so Scientology can operate in there without really being 19 scrutinized or looked at, you know, so the goals -- they can 20 reach the goals. 21 Q While you were in Scientology, was there a policy 22 on making Clearwater a Scientology city? 23 A You know, I don't know if there is a policy. 24 There is certainly a -- communications about it. It's been 25 talked about, I know.
21 1 I remember even when I was in Ohio once, they do 2 Flag tours where people from Flag will come out, go out to 3 the smaller orgs and talk about Flag. 4 And I know at one point I was told that that was 5 supposed to be the egress point for mankind because everyone 6 would come here and be audited, then leave their bodies 7 there. It was like an egress point. 8 Q Leave their bodies? 9 A It's very important. It is supposed to be a 10 Scientology city, the government run by Scientology. It's 11 just supposed to be the first Scientology city, period. 12 Q Okay. So -- so what is that safe pointing? What 13 does that have to do with handling the PR flap? 14 A Mmm, safe pointing -- well, actually, that would 15 help because when you are safe pointing you are becoming 16 known in the community and trusted in the community so if 17 something does happen, say you are a member of the Chamber 18 of Commerce and something happens at Flag and you hear them 19 twittering about it, you are right there, you can explain it 20 and make it safe, "That is all right, that is not really 21 what happened," or whatever. You know what I'm saying? 22 Q Okay. 23 A But they are sort of two separate things. But 24 they do kind of play together that way. 25 Q Okay. Would a public Scientologist -- in your 20
22 1 years of experience, would a public Scientologist walking 2 naked on a public street in front of police, fire/rescue, 3 EMS, going to Morton Plant Hospital, almost Baker Acted, be 4 a minor, or major, PR flap? 5 MR. MOXON: Objection. Calls for some sort of 6 opinion from the witness as to something that would 7 happen. Speculative -- 8 THE COURT: I don't think that calls for an 9 opinion. I think, as a member, she can state what 10 she thinks, having been a member. 11 MR. MOXON: Of course this was 1986. So if 12 we're dealing with 1986 -- 13 THE COURT: I don't know if it was in 1986. 14 Didn't she say she was still in in 1999? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 16 A I'm sorry, so would that be a PR flap? Is that 17 what you asked me? Yes. Of course. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Now, would it be a PR flap of greater magnitude 20 because it is in Clearwater, involving Flag? 21 A Yes. It would. 22 Q And why is that? 23 A Well, because of what I have said. 24 Q All right. 25 A I don't mind saying it again, but I have explained
23 1 that. 2 Q No, I don't want you to repeat yourself. 3 A Okay. 4 Q But let me ask you this. You said you lived in 5 Pinellas County six years, right? 6 A Almost seven, actually. August, it will be seven 7 years. 8 Q So that seven years you were a member, public 9 member, of the Church of Scientology until 1999? 10 A Right. Right. 11 Q All right. Now, did you visit and continue to 12 take services or auditing or processing in Clearwater up 13 until 1999? 14 A Yes. 15 Q How does the Church of Scientology view what they 16 call the tech? 17 MR. MOXON: Objection. I object. This is 18 asking for generalities as to how the whole Church 19 views its -- the tech refers to the entirety of the 20 religious practice. That is a view -- moreover, it 21 is completely irrelevant -- 22 THE COURT: It certainly is not irrelevant. 23 That much I know from what little I do know. And 24 obviously -- where she goes with this -- but I think 25 I know where he's going. Let's see if that is where
24 1 she's going. And if she's going there, it is not 2 irrelevant. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q How is the tech viewed, in your 20 years' 5 experience, by Scientologists, both staff and public? 6 A Mmm, that is a little bit general for me. When 7 you say how is it viewed -- 8 Q Right. 9 A I mean, it's viewed as -- it's viewed as something 10 that cannot be violated, that has to be applied exactly. 11 You know -- 12 Q Okay, is the tech within the Church of Scientology 13 something that is fallible or infallible? 14 A Infallible. Right. 15 Q And within your 20 years as a member, does the -- 16 if a person who is a member of the Church of Scientology 17 becomes psychotic, is that because the tech failed? 18 A No. 19 MR. MOXON: Objection. Calls for -- again, it 20 is opinion or speculation. 21 THE COURT: Well, it is hard to know who 22 exactly is asked that question if it were not for 23 someone either presently in the Church or not in the 24 Church. You certainly just couldn't ask your 25 run-of-the-mill psychiatrists. So --
25 1 MR. MOXON: Well, I, however, don't think it is 2 relevant to any of the issues presented here. I 3 guess Mr. Dandar is kind of getting into the case 4 itself. I mean, I don't believe this concerns 5 certainly the Paragraph 34, and doesn't concern -- 6 THE COURT: Oh, I think it does indeed. If the 7 tech is infallible and the tech cannot be varied and 8 the tech for an introspection rundown is what it is, 9 and it can't be varied, this could very well be a 10 reason if, in fact, the doctors testifying for the 11 plaintiffs are correct, "Well, what happened." That 12 is exactly where he's going. So if you are wrong, 13 it is very relevant to this issue. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q What was my question? 16 A I don't know? 17 18 THE REPORTER: "Question: And within your 20 19 years as a member, does the -- if a person who is a 20 member of the Church of Scientology becomes 21 psychotic, is that because the tech failed? 22 "Answer: No." 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q What is it from? 25 A Mmm --
26 1 THE COURT: If you know. If he asks you 2 something that you really don't know, you need to 3 say you don't know. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, I will. 5 MR. DANDAR: Absolutely. 6 A Well, it's not usually just one thing. Generally, 7 it is a failure on the part of the PC somehow. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Who is the PC? 10 A The person receiving the auditing. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Now, okay, I need to correct that. Sometimes they 13 will say, "Oh, we made a mistake with the processing," but 14 it is not that the tech failed. It's that it wasn't applied 15 properly. So you may have to go to review. You may have to 16 go to ethics. You know, if it is just all botched up and 17 they don't know -- you know, they just don't know why, 18 they'll send you to ethics. 19 It's you. You know, it's generally your -- you 20 are always responsible for your own condition, period. That 21 is what -- that is what is stated. That is what you learn 22 again and again, no matter what your condition is. 23 Q What happens if you blame the tech? 24 A Well, it wouldn't be a good idea. 25 Q Why?
27 1 A You would certainly go to ethics for that because 2 that is a wrong viewpoint. 3 Q Is ethics a form of punishment? 4 A You know, it's not described as a form of 5 punishment, but it -- it kind of practices as a form of 6 punishment, if that makes sense, you know. 7 Q Is that where the lower conditions are? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Like treason? 10 A Yes, envy, liability. Those are lower conditions. 11 Q Is that what happens also when staff members stats 12 are down? 13 MR. MOXON: Objection. 14 A Yes. 15 MR. MOXON: Again, I don't see how this could 16 possibly be relevant to any of the issues in this 17 case. 18 MR. DANDAR: I guarantee I'm going to make this 19 all relevant to Paragraph 34. 20 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to overrule your 21 objection. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Now, in PR flaps, who gets involved to try to deal 24 or handle PR flaps here in Clearwater? 25 A OSA and -- OSA pretty much handles the PR flaps.
28 1 Q Why is that? 2 A Why is that? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Mmm, I don't know why. I think -- 5 Q Okay. 6 A It's part of their -- they are the legal and -- 7 the captain -- the FSO is so intent on delivering, you know, 8 that anything that goes to legal, even someone requesting 9 money back goes immediately to OSA, it becomes legal, it 10 becomes a PR thing and they handle that. 11 Q Where does the Flag Service Organization, FSO, 12 rank in the world of Scientologists as their ability to 13 properly apply the tech? 14 A It's the top. It is called the mecca of technical 15 perfection. 16 Q Is that why you are living in Clearwater? 17 A Yes, actually, that is how I originally moved here 18 was to -- to be closer to the Flag. 19 Q Why did you leave Scientology? 20 A Well, Mmm, it was many -- it was years, really, of 21 many things sort of building up. Mmm, and then when I -- 22 you know, I finally -- it took me years to make it to Flag 23 as a PC, as a public, because it is hugely expensive and 24 it's a great goal to get there, and I had invested a lot of 25 money.
29 1 And when I got there, Mmm, it was so 2 disappointing. My auditing was not going well. And just 3 what I observed of the OTs around me -- 4 MR. MOXON: Objection. Relevance, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: I don't know what the relevance -- 6 I don't even know what an OT is, so -- 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q What is an OT? 9 THE COURT: I mean, I know what it is, I think, 10 it's -- 11 THE WITNESS: It is operating thetan, 12 T-H-E-T-A-N. 13 MR. MOXON: I'm objecting, also, to Mr. Dandar 14 seeking to elicit from her what she's now talking 15 about is her own alleged religious experiences or 16 experiences in the Church as a parishioner, having, 17 again, nothing to do with any of the issues -- 18 THE COURT: I think it might tend to go to her 19 bias or lack of bias. Therefore, it is relevant why 20 she left the Church, if she's talking about the 21 Church. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Why did you leave the Church? 24 A Additionally to what I have already said, I -- I 25 simply wasn't happy. It had been a long time, I spent years
30 1 in that church. And I would say it was a build-up of 2 observations over the years, my own personal -- I moved 3 nowhere in 20 years. And when I got there and put in pretty 4 much every penny I had, I was getting nowhere, you know. 5 And, you know, there was a lot of factors in that. 6 Q Are you -- do you classify yourself as an 7 anti-Scientologist? 8 A No. I don't. 9 Q How do you classify yourself? 10 A I -- I don't classify myself. I would say a 11 critic, but I try not to -- I mean, I'm not very vociferous. 12 I don't go on the Internet and post. I just don't do that. 13 Q Okay. 14 A You know. I -- wait -- I would like to say maybe 15 an advocate for rights, Scientologists who are being abused. 16 Maybe I would be some kind of advocate. That is all I would 17 classify myself. 18 Q In the 20 years as a member of the Church did you 19 ever hear of the introspection rundown? 20 A No. Not as a member, I didn't. 21 Q And did you ever test to clear? 22 A Yes. 23 Q How far up did you go? 24 A That was it. 25 Q Okay. In your experience in Scientology have you
31 1 ever heard the phrase "drop the body"? 2 A Sure. 3 Q What does that mean? 4 A To die, in the vernacular. 5 Q Okay. Are there processes or policies on -- in 6 Scientology on dropping the body? 7 A I was told that there were. Yes. 8 Q Did you study those? 9 A No. 10 Q Now, have you been inside the Ft. Harrison Hotel? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Is the Ft. Harrison Hotel, within your experience, 13 20 years, someplace that a member who is psychotic would 14 stay? 15 A No. 16 Q Now, you already talked about the Flag having an 17 order? 18 A Right. That is right. 19 Q But are there other reasons why a psychotic 20 wouldn't be inside the hotel? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Why? 23 A Because the Flag -- Ft. Harrison is for public. 24 Usually the wealthiest Scientology public are there getting 25 their services. And they are running around and milling
32 1 about, and you just wouldn't risk -- you would not risk 2 having someone who is crazy get in touch with -- with, you 3 know, these people. You just wouldn't do that. 4 Q People like John Travolta and Tom Cruise stay 5 there? 6 A I have seen John Travolta there. Tom Cruise may 7 not have stayed there. I don't know personally. 8 Q John Travolta? 9 A Yes, John Travolta. I saw Ann Archer there. But 10 not just wealthy stars. Very wealthy people from all over 11 the world. The wealthiest people from Scientology come 12 there. 13 Q The Super Power project in Clearwater for the 14 Church of Scientology, have you heard of that? 15 A Sure. 16 Q Is that that big building they are building on Ft. 17 Harrison? 18 A Right. 19 Q Right across from the hotel? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Now, within your 20 years of knowledge of the 22 Church of Scientology, what is the likelihood of Lisa 23 McPherson being kept in a cabana right next to the Super 24 Power office? 25 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Calls for
33 1 speculation. 2 THE COURT: I think that is true. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q While you were a Flag staff Sea Org member, did 5 you ever have an experience where you heard of or knew 6 personally someone being processed to drop their body? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Tell us about it. 9 A Mmm, I was relatively new to staff. I believe it 10 was probably within the first six months of my being there. 11 Mmm, I was working in the office at -- the commanding 12 officer, who at that time was Laurie Englehart. I was one 13 of her lower officers. 14 And during that time I mentioned they were doing 15 big renovations at the Ft. Harrison. There was a problem 16 that she was addressing with the CO, commanding officer, of 17 CMO -- 18 THE COURT: What does that mean, CMO? 19 THE WITNESS: Commodore's Messenger Org is what 20 that means. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Where is that commanding officer located? 23 A At the time, we were all located at 218, which we 24 call the WB building. On one side was our org, the FOB. On 25 the other side was the CMO.
34 1 Okay, so I believe there was a messenger who had 2 been being kept at the Ft. Harrison. And he was being 3 watched. And he couldn't take care of himself, and he was 4 being fed. 5 And it was explained to me that he was ill, had 6 some kind of -- I think they said muscle -- she said 7 muscle-wasting disease. And they needed to move him. 8 However, her policy -- you are really not supposed 9 to keep people around who are sick like this. You are not 10 there to take care of the ill. Basically, they are down 11 stats. And that is not what Flag is all about. They are 12 there to take the able people and make them more able. 13 So even the fact they were caring for him, they 14 weren't supposed to be doing that, but they needed to move 15 him because he was on -- whatever floor he was on needed 16 renovations. 17 MR. MOXON: I object. This is hearsay. She's 18 talking about what somebody else told her. 19 THE COURT: She was there. She said she was in 20 the office. 21 MR. MOXON: Not in the office where this was -- 22 MR. DANDAR: She most definitely was. 23 MR. MOXON: He can ask if this is personal 24 knowledge. 25 THE COURT: You were in this office listening
35 1 to all this going on? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q And did you -- go ahead. 6 A I didn't hear all of it. I mean, what happened a 7 lot of times was my commanding officer was working with -- I 8 believe her name was Janet. And they would have meetings. 9 But then we would have our meetings, and she would 10 say, "Okay, here is what we're going to do, we're dealing 11 with this guy, he's sick," yeah, yeah, yeah, then just kind 12 of keep us -- 13 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, I do object to relevance 14 because -- 15 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon, we're going to let her 16 get through this. So I want you to sit down and let 17 it go. This isn't a trial. There is a lot of 18 hearsay that comes into this hearing. I don't want 19 to you interrupt her anymore. 20 Continue. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Go ahead. 23 A Okay. So, Mmm, so the solution was -- the way it 24 was explained to me by Mr. Englehart was Alain Kartuzinski 25 was going in and audit him.
36 1 Q Alain Kartuzinski? 2 A Right. 3 THE COURT: Who told you this? 4 A The commanding officer, who was my immediate 5 senior. 6 THE COURT: Who was? 7 THE WITNESS: Laurie Englehart. 8 THE COURT: That is right. You referred to him 9 as Mr. 10 THE WITNESS: Right. That is right. 11 THE COURT: Because of the Navy. 12 THE WITNESS: Sorry. That is right. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: She was Mr. Englehart. That is 15 correct. 16 MR. DANDAR: I didn't even catch that. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q But, all right, go ahead. 19 A Mmm, oh, so Alain was going to go in and audit him 20 to help him drop his body. And then he did. I mean, it 21 took about three days, I think, but three days later she 22 came back and said, okay, so it has been done and he's done. 23 And that was it, that is the last I heard. 24 Q So the renovations could go forward? 25 A Right, so the renovations could move forward.
37 1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what -- drop the body 2 means to die, did you say? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Who was this person? 5 THE WITNESS: Which person? 6 THE COURT: The person that was going to be 7 audited? 8 THE WITNESS: I -- I really don't remember. I 9 think his name was Mr. Christian -- Christianson. I 10 never saw him myself. I never saw him. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Now, the decision to have this person drop their 13 body with auditing by Mr. Kartuzinski, was that something, 14 as far as you know, just decided locally at the Clearwater 15 office? 16 A Mmm, well, no. It wasn't. It was coordinated up 17 lines, is what we would say. 18 Q Coordinated up lines? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, how did I first find out about you? 21 A Okay. When I left Scientology, which was in March 22 or April of '99, shortly after I left, I got on the 23 Internet. I'd actually watched a program on A & E a couple 24 months before I left. And on that program was a gentleman 25 talking about Scientology materials being on the Internet.
38 1 But, of course, being a Scientologist at that 2 time, I wouldn't look at them. I wouldn't look at them. 3 However, after I left, I decided to get on and look at them. 4 And once I got on the Internet, I was on the 5 Internet for about 15 hours a day for days. There was so 6 much information on Ron Hubbard, on Scientology, on people 7 who had gotten out, that it was just -- just floored me. 8 And then I found -- Mmm -- there was a site called 9 B-Org, O-R-G. And they had a message board or something 10 where former Scientologists were talking to each other. 11 And -- and I read it -- I didn't get on it -- but 12 at this time I was learning about Lisa, too, because when I 13 was at Flag, which I was right up until '99, you don't 14 know -- no one ever talked about Lisa, ever. So I was 15 really curious to really find out what happened to her. So 16 I was reading some of the stuff on the Internet. 17 And when I was reading -- reading about Lisa is 18 when I remembered about the guy -- this guy that I just told 19 you about that had -- you know, when I was there, who they 20 had audited to drop his body. 21 And I thought, well, it just seemed so similar, 22 you know. And I posted something on that. I just got on 23 that message board and I said, you know, I'm reading Lisa's 24 stuff and it reminds me of this incident when I was in the 25 Sea Org, and does anyone else remember this, I think is what
39 1 I said, is there anyone there in '86 and '87 that would 2 remember this? 3 And the only response I got to that was from a guy 4 who ran it who was in the Netherlands or somewhere. And he 5 said that you had some posts. He said the attorney for Lisa 6 McPherson's lawsuit has seen that post and wants to know if 7 he can contact you. And I said yes. 8 And then I believe you E-mailed me, I think, 9 shortly after that, and asked about the incident. 10 Q Okay. By the way, when you reviewed this 11 Clearwater Police Department CD of all of the evidence they 12 gathered on Lisa McPherson, did you come across anywhere 13 where Int Management, the California people, were involved 14 with Lisa McPherson? 15 A Uh-huh, I did. 16 Q What did you find? 17 A I found what is called -- 18 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Lack of 19 foundation. She's saying things that she read on 20 the police department -- now she's testifying about 21 what documents are allegedly in the police 22 department on the police department CD of their 23 investigation. I don't know how she's competent to 24 discuss that. 25 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'll show Mr. Moxon Exhibit
40 1 91 which was produced by Flag, which is FSO -- their 2 Bates Number 00565 through 567. I'll have -- it is 3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 91. I'll hand it to the 4 witness. And Plaintiff's Exhibit 91 I will hand to 5 the Court. 6 THE COURT: Do you have one for the clerk? 7 MR. DANDAR: The clerk already marked it. I'm 8 ahead of you today. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q So, Ms. Summers, look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 91. 11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, tell me what this is 12 again. 13 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to explain it to 14 you? 15 THE COURT: SO, that would be Flag Service 16 Organization? 17 MR. DANDAR: Inc. The defendant, yes. 18 THE COURT: This is their Bates number? 19 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 20 THE COURT: This was provided to you? 21 MR. DANDAR: This was provided to me. And it 22 was provided to the police and the prosecutor. 23 THE COURT: All right. Your objection is what? 24 MR. MOXON: So what this is is apparently 25 something from or by or concerning Lisa McPherson
41 1 that was produced in discovery. But how this 2 witness could possibly know anything about it, I 3 guess he's going to ask the witness her opinion with 4 respect to something that Lisa McPherson allegedly 5 wrote. So I -- 6 THE COURT: Well, I don't know. But -- well, I 7 guess we'll have to see. 8 MR. MOXON: I don't know why we have this 9 witness discussing this document. Obviously, she 10 doesn't have anything to do with it. 11 THE COURT: Well, we won't know until we hear 12 so let's hear what she has to say. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Do you know what this document was when you 15 reviewed the police index? 16 A Uh-huh. 17 Q What is it? 18 A Yes. It's an OW write-up, it is called. 19 Q What is an OW write-up? 20 A Okay -- 21 THE COURT: Tell me -- let me go back, if I 22 might, to when you said when you did the Clearwater 23 Police Department review, I don't know what you're 24 talking about. 25 THE WITNESS: It wasn't a review. When I
42 1 worked at the Lisa McPherson Trust, there were -- 2 sometimes there wasn't anything to do. I mean, I 3 would be really, really busy, then I would have a 4 couple days. 5 And we had a CD that the Clearwater Police 6 Department sells that is all of the investigative 7 files of Lisa's investigation. 8 THE COURT: Kind of like public records? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. It is the public records. 10 THE COURT: On a CD? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. And I would just read 12 through it because I just wanted to know what 13 happened. I wanted to know what happened from -- 14 I -- I wanted to know what they had done and what 15 they had said. I was just curious. 16 THE COURT: And you read this? 17 THE WITNESS: I found that out on there, right. 18 THE COURT: What is it you are going to ask her 19 about this? 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Okay, did you read anything in this particular 22 three pages of her OW -- oh, tell the Court what an OW is. 23 A Oh, an OW write-up -- okay, it is O stands for 24 overt, O-V-E-R-T. W stands for withhold. And a write-up is 25 just writing as a write-up. And it is an action that you do
43 1 as part of an ethics, as part of -- it's hard for me to 2 phrase it not in Scientology terms. As part of a correcting 3 your ethics or -- or handling them. 4 So an overt is something that you have -- it's an 5 act of omission or commission that you have done that is not 6 pro-survival is what it is. And -- 7 Q Could I be so bold as to say an overt is a sin? 8 A I mean, that would be comparable. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Withhold, I don't understand that part. 12 A A withhold is when you committed the overt and you 13 have withheld the fact that you have committed it. So you 14 are sitting on it, sort of, and not telling, you know. 15 Q So you are not confessing your sins? 16 A Right, you have a withhold that someone needs to 17 know. 18 Q So part of Scientology process -- 19 A Ethics. 20 Q -- of coming clean or confessing, I mean, I don't 21 want to put words in your mouth, but would be what the OW 22 write-up is? 23 A Yes, it is more than just coming clean and 24 confessing; it is to move yourself up into a condition where 25 you are doing better.
44 1 Q Okay. 2 A You are improving. You know, you are getting rid 3 of bad things, because the theory is, you know, if you are 4 not doing well, you will have overts, you must have done 5 something bad so you have to get them off. 6 Q So there are three pages here? 7 A There are three pages -- no, two. 8 Q No, there are three. 9 A Oh, okay. 10 Q I want to direct your attention to the third page 11 at the top, the second sentence. 12 A Well -- 13 THE COURT: Where does this come from? I don't 14 understand what this is. 15 MR. DANDAR: This was produced by the defendant 16 to the police and to the plaintiff. 17 THE COURT: I -- I -- what I want to know is 18 this obviously appears to be something that Lisa 19 McPherson wrote or what have you. Where does it go? 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, it goes to her ethics. 21 Whoever is doing -- 22 MR. MOXON: Well, allegedly, your Honor, this 23 is something she wrote at work. 24 THE WITNESS: Right, she was doing an -- 25 MR. MOXON: AMC Publishing Company.
45 1 THE COURT: Actually, Mr. Moxon, you are not 2 under oath. So I'm asking where do these things go. 3 THE WITNESS: They go to an ethics folder that 4 they keep on you at the Church. And sometimes they 5 will go to your PC folder if you are actually on 6 auditing at that time. Say you are doing auditing 7 and it is not going well, so they bump you off to 8 get your ethics in is what it is called. 9 You may have to do a whole lot of these writing 10 up of overts. Then they would go back -- they would 11 go back, you would get an okay from your -- you 12 know, to go back. But they go to the ethics 13 officer, they go to the PC folder, you do okay, you 14 can go back on auditing, basically. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q If this was done at AMC Publishing, her place of 17 employment -- you understand AMC Publishing is owned by 18 Bennetta Slaughter and David Slaughter, who are public 19 members of the Church of Scientology? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So even though it is a public -- it's -- it's a 22 private business, they would -- they were following the -- I 23 guess what is called the Hubbard tech? 24 A Yes. Right. 25 Q Okay. And then in this overt and withhold that
46 1 was produced by Flag at the Bates numbers that we talked 2 about, 566 to 567, this would also go from her employer to 3 her ethics file at the Church? 4 A Well, it must have because FSO had it. 5 MR. MOXON: Well, move to strike. Asking for 6 speculation, conclusion. 7 MR. DANDAR: Well, actually -- 8 MR. MOXON: There is no evidence how this got 9 produced. 10 THE COURT: Apparently it came from your 11 client. 12 MR. MOXON: Yes, I know. But that doesn't 13 mean -- Mr. Dandar said this came from her ethics 14 file at church. That is pure speculation. 15 THE COURT: Let's just say we don't know where 16 it came from, but it came from the Church. 17 MR. DANDAR: I can be very specific, Judge. If 18 you will recall, the transcribed interview of my 19 client, Fannie McPherson -- Flag typed on their 20 Bates number "FDLE" because they said that is how 21 they know where it came from. 22 And this has "FSO," so by their own admission 23 this comes from the defendant, FSO. And I would 24 dare say Mr. Moxon knows that is where it comes 25 from.
47 1 MR. MOXON: Well, actual fact, your Honor, I 2 wasn't involved in the case at the time. But what I 3 was informed, at this time Mr. Dandar asked us to 4 get it from AMC, we got the AMC Publishing files and 5 those were produced as part of the Church 6 production. 7 THE COURT: Well, should it say AMC at the 8 bottom? I do recall these things are sort of 9 identified at the bottom. 10 MR. DANDAR: I have many things that say AMC 11 from the defendant. 12 THE COURT: Or FDLE. 13 MR. MOXON: I would be happy to straighten this 14 out later. But obviously there is no indication 15 here it came out of a Church file. It does indicate 16 it was produced by the Church, but -- 17 THE COURT: How did you get this, Mr. Dandar? 18 Some request for production? Or what? 19 MR. DANDAR: It is in my office. But I also 20 found it much easier on the Clearwater Police 21 Department CD that was sold to me from the 22 Clearwater Police Department. 23 And these are the records produced by Flag to 24 the Clearwater Police Department. But I also have 25 the same set, because they claim -- or I should not
48 1 say claim, they state they gave me everything they 2 gave the police. 3 THE COURT: That pertained to Lisa McPherson? 4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 5 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I don't have personal 6 knowledge of this but I'll check the 7 representations. My understanding -- 8 THE COURT: I'll take Mr. Dandar's 9 representations at this time. 10 Continue. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q So could you please read out loud the first two 13 sentences that appear on Page 3 which Bates Number 567 14 starting with, "My friends --" 15 A It says, "My friends and -- 16 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't really say "My." 17 THE WITNESS: I have to read the previous 18 sentence. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Okay. In fact, start on the next page or -- 21 A I would like to start on a previous page. 22 Q Go ahead. 23 A Just the beginning, she's talking about -- here is 24 what she says. 25 "In February of '95 on Tuesday afternoon at 2:10
49 1 in my office at AMC --" she's talking about -- she 2 dramatized her case. If you read through it, okay, "Someone 3 came in, asked me what condition I was applying, my withhold 4 got missed, and I became enraged." 5 She kind of describes her mind-set. Then she goes 6 down further, "I went psycho. I pled my case on every 7 terminal," which means person, et cetera, et cetera. 8 Then she says, "I worried every single friend and 9 fellow staff member to death thinking I might not make it 10 because I was dramatizing death so hard. My friends were 11 left helpless to me. Int Management had to get involved to 12 sort me out, which took time away from their expansion or 13 helping someone who wasn't as able as I was. 14 "Every Comm line I was on was adversely affected 15 in some way due to my position as a stable terminal. It 16 destabilized anyone connected to me. My group was severely 17 damaged both spiritually and financially due to my actions. 18 We almost went down." 19 Q So she's saying Int Management had to get involved 20 to sort her out? 21 A That is what she says. 22 Q And this is in February of '95? 23 A That is what it says. 24 Q Now, when she's talking about feeling bad that she 25 left the -- let the group down --
50 1 A Right. 2 Q -- is that something that Scientologists are 3 taught in the courses they take? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What is that? I mean, what is that all about? 6 A Mmm, it goes back to that you are always 7 responsible for your own condition. And so -- so she had a 8 breakdown, and ultimately she was responsible for that. And 9 in the course of that, she created a problem. 10 There is policy in Scientology that says it is a 11 crime to create a problem. You don't create a problem, even 12 if it is because you are ill. 13 So she felt like she had created a problem for 14 herself, for her work, and for the Int Management. I mean, 15 that is a big problem she created and she was responsible 16 for that. Whether or not it was because she had a 17 breakdown, you know -- 18 Q And she admits in February of '95 in here she went 19 psychotic? 20 A That is what she says. 21 MR. DANDAR: I move this into evidence. 22 MR. MOXON: I object. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 MR. MOXON: No foundation. 25
51 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Now -- 3 MR. DANDAR: That is Exhibit 91. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q -- so I put the word out somehow with this man in 6 Norway. Was that Operation Clambake? 7 A No. 8 THE COURT: Where is that? Where are you 9 reading from? 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm not. 11 THE COURT: Oh. We're done with this? 12 MR. DANDAR: We're done with that. 13 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And how did I get a hold of you? 16 A I -- you know what? I don't remember. I think 17 you E-mailed me is what you did. 18 Q So was this in '99? 19 A Yes, it was in '99. Right. 20 Q All right. And you came to my office. And I 21 interviewed you in March of '99? 22 A No, I think it was in August of '99. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Sorry. 25 Q So much for my memory. All right. And -- well,
52 1 let me stop, freeze frame that time. 2 Before you walked into the door of my office -- 3 A Yes? 4 Q -- have you ever met Robert Minton? 5 A No. 6 Q Stacy Brooks? 7 A No. 8 Q Jesse Prince? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. And sometime after that, to your surprise, 11 you were deposed? 12 A Sometime after I was with you? 13 Q Yes. 14 A Oh, yes. Right, I was deposed in June of 2000. 15 Q And my brother appeared representing -- 16 A Yes, that is right. 17 Q -- you. And Mr. Moxon took your deposition? 18 A Yes, he did. 19 Q Now, freeze that moment in time, that position in 20 June of 2000. Had you met Mr. Minton? 21 A No. 22 Q Stacy Brooks? 23 A No. 24 Q Jesse Prince? 25 A No.
53 1 Q Had you been -- you were living in Clearwater, 2 weren't you? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Had you been to the Lisa McPherson Trust? 5 A No. Actually, I don't live in Clearwater. I live 6 in Dunedin. 7 Q Sorry. 8 A That is okay. 9 Q It is just a stone's throw. 10 A It is right there. But just to be correct. 11 Q Now, did I pay you to provide me the information 12 that you provided me before your deposition? 13 A No. 14 Q Did I pay you or promise you anything for coming 15 forward and letting me put you on my witness list? 16 A No. 17 Q Did anyone reward you in any way whatsoever for 18 being a witness in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case? 19 A No. 20 Q How is it then that you came to meet anyone 21 associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust? 22 A Mmm, because real shortly after my deposition in 23 June -- Mmm -- Brian Haney, who I knew in Columbus who was 24 also a former Scientologist, I believe he was at your 25 office.
54 1 And you mentioned to him, "We just deposed a lady 2 a couple days ago who was from Ohio." 3 He said, "Who is it?" 4 You said, "Teresa Summers." 5 He said, "I know Teresa Summers." 6 So he called me. And at that time, you know, it's 7 difficult coming out of Scientology after 20 years. And I 8 was having -- I was suffering some depression. And I talked 9 to him about it. 10 And he said, "You know, you should call the 11 trust." Well, I did know about the trust at this time. 12 THE COURT: You did? Or didn't? 13 THE WITNESS: I did, because there were some 14 newspaper articles. And, actually, Ken talked to me 15 about them, but he didn't want me to go to them. 16 And I stayed away from them. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Wait. Why didn't I want you to go to the trust? 19 A Because you had explained to me how they were 20 trying to hook up the case with the trust and everything, so 21 I didn't -- I just said, "Well, that is all right, I don't 22 want to go there, anyway," because -- I'll tell you why. I 23 had seen them on that same A & E program I had seen and I 24 thought Bob Minton was crazy. They were talking about him 25 shooting guns, and I just wasn't impressed with Bob and
55 1 Stacy at that time. And I remember saying at that time I 2 have no interest in those people. 3 And it was probably about two days after we did 4 the 2000 depo that Brian said, "Why don't you go in there?" 5 I said, "I don't want to go in there." 6 He said, "Why don't you just write Jesse." He 7 knew Jesse. He was friends with Jesse. He really loves 8 Jesse. They are very close friends. He said, "Talk to 9 Jesse. Jesse can help you." 10 So I wrote a letter to Jesse and just introduced 11 myself, which is also interesting because he'd actually come 12 in on the 2000 deposition, halfway through, and I didn't 13 even recognize him, I didn't even know that was him. So I 14 think he already knew who I was. But I wrote him a letter. 15 Q Okay. 16 A Just sort of introducing myself. 17 MR. DANDAR: And I have that letter marked as 18 Plaintiff's Exhibit 93 with the envelope attached. 19 I'm going to hand the witness the clerk's copy. And 20 I'm going to hand the Court the Court's copy. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Could you read that, please? 23 A Okay. It says, "Dear Mr. Prince -- 24 THE COURT: No, we don't want her to read the 25 whole thing out loud. Are you going to introduce it
56 1 into evidence? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I move it into evidence. 3 THE COURT: Any objection? 4 MR. MOXON: No, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: What did you say? 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: He said no. 7 MR. DANDAR: Okay. It is in evidence. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q And what was the response from anyone after you 10 sent Jesse Prince this letter? 11 What is the date of the letter? 12 A The letter is not dated. 13 Q I'll show you the original envelope. 14 A The envelope is there. 15 Q I'll hand the witness the original envelope. It 16 is probably easier to read. 17 A It is -- it says, Mmm, 21 June, 2000. 18 Q Okay. 19 A So I think my deposition was on the 13th of June, 20 if I recall, so it was a few days after that. 21 Q And what was the purpose of writing the letter? 22 A I kind of needed someone to talk to who could 23 share their experience -- you know, the experience of having 24 been in Scientology. You know, it's a rough time, you know. 25 Q Okay. So you sent the letter to Jesse Prince at
57 1 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 2 A Right. 3 Q Okay. And what was the response? 4 A Jesse called me. 5 Q And what? 6 A Well, he just talked to me, you know. And we -- 7 we just talked, basically, and -- I talked to him a few 8 times, probably two or three times. He asked me to come in, 9 but I wouldn't go in. I wouldn't go in at first. 10 Q Why? 11 A Mmm, because I was aware that Scientology was 12 watching people who went in. There was testimony on the 13 Internet about being followed, being watched. And I didn't 14 want to go through that. 15 Q Okay. 16 A You know, I was leery. 17 Q Did there come a point in time when you changed 18 your thoughts about that and decided to go in? 19 A Yeah. And it wasn't -- it was probably within the 20 next couples months, I think. I think the first time I went 21 in was probably in August. And I did, I just went in to 22 visit and I met Stacy. I don't remember if I met her the 23 first time I went in there, but -- and I talked to Jesse and 24 I met Stacy, and that was it. 25 Then I went back two or three times -- they
58 1 explained to me what they were doing, you know, and that 2 sort of thing. 3 Q And did you have any conversations with Stacy 4 Brooks about me? 5 A Not that time, I don't remember. 6 Q Okay. So you just went in there to help -- get 7 help for yourself? 8 A Yes, initially. 9 Q Okay. And did it come to be that you became an 10 employee of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 11 A Yes. 12 Q How did that come about? 13 A It came about because -- excuse me -- I was trying 14 to get money back from the Church. I had money -- I had had 15 about $27,000 on account, which I asked back. And they gave 16 me that back really very quickly. But there was still other 17 moneys that I wanted to get back and I was being told, no, I 18 couldn't get it back. 19 And you actually said, "Well, why don't you 20 contact another attorney and he'll help you get it back." 21 I talked to that attorney. He said, "I'll help 22 you," but he was going to take a third of it. 23 So I said, "Forget it, I'm going to try to get it 24 back myself." 25 So I -- since I was getting nowhere writing them,
59 1 I wrote consumer protection agencies, because it is a 2 consumer practice. I mean, they're selling goods, they are 3 selling services, they are advertising, you know what I 4 mean. So I wrote and I just asked for help, basically, and 5 explained my situation. 6 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Relevance. 7 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Okay. And did you finally get your money back? 10 A I got pretty much all of my money back. Yes. 11 Q Did there come a time when you went to work for 12 the trust? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Tell us about that. How did that come about? 15 A Well, I visited. Jesse was working with a lot of 16 people who were trying to get money back. And, Mmm, and I 17 told him -- you know, it must have been a couple months must 18 have gone by, I think it was September, when I went in. 19 I said, "You know what, here is what I'm doing," 20 and I took one of the letters I had written to -- I don't 21 remember -- one of the consumer protection agencies. And I 22 showed it to him. 23 And he called Stacy out. And they said, "Oh, this 24 is a great idea. We never thought of doing this." 25 And they were working with a woman in Atlanta.
60 1 And at that time they asked -- asked me if I would just help 2 them a little, if I could volunteer and help them with some 3 of the people. 4 And I said, Mmm, "Well, I could help you on a 5 limited basis," because I'm a single mother and she wanted 6 me to basically volunteer. I said I couldn't do it. It was 7 like, I have to have an income. 8 They asked me two or three times to volunteer. I 9 said no. 10 Finally she asked me -- she came in and offered me 11 a job. 12 Q And was there any discussion about me at that 13 point? 14 A Mmm, not with Stacy. With Jesse, I did, talked 15 about you, during the time I was hired, right after I was 16 hired. 17 Q Was there any hesitation on your part to go work 18 there? 19 A On my part, there was. 20 Q Why? 21 A Because you had told -- explained to me -- you 22 basically said, "Are you interested in them?" 23 I said no. 24 You said, "Good. Stay away from them." You 25 didn't want me tangled up with them.
61 1 I said to Jesse, you know, "Ken is not going to be 2 real happy that I'm working here." 3 Jesse said, "Aww, who cares. We need you." 4 I'm sure he said something more than "who cares," 5 but, you know -- 6 Q What did you do at the Lisa McPherson Trust? 7 A I worked with people who were calling and writing 8 and E-mailing, mostly helping them get money back. That is 9 pretty much what I did. 10 Q You mean you didn't just sit around and get paid 11 waiting for this trial to happen so you could come in and 12 testify? 13 A No, I didn't. 14 Q You actually did work there? 15 A I worked. 16 Q Did you try to harass any of the witnesses on the 17 defendant's witness list? 18 A Of course not. 19 Q Did you ever picket? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever see me picket? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you ever see me come to the trust? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And how often would you see me there?
62 1 A Probably -- how long was I there? About a year? 2 Maybe four times, three or four times I saw you there. 3 Q All right. So as you sit here today, have I ever 4 paid you any money at all? 5 A No. 6 Q Has anyone ever paid you any money to provide 7 testimony? 8 A No. 9 Q Has anyone paid you any money to help me? 10 A No. 11 Q Was the employment at the Lisa McPherson Trust any 12 type of reward or inducement or benefit for being a witness 13 in this case? 14 A No. 15 Q You have been deposed how many times in the Lisa 16 McPherson case? 17 A I think three or four. 18 Q So would you counsel former Scientologists at the 19 Lisa McPherson Trust? 20 A Counsel them? 21 Q Yes. Talk to them? 22 A Yeah, we would talk. It was a support group. We 23 were not counselors, but it was support. And I would refer 24 them to other people and references. And I would help them 25 to take the steps to get money returned to them because many
63 1 of them wanted money returned to them. 2 Q Did you ever have an understanding that the 3 employees at the Lisa McPherson Trust were simply a stable 4 of witnesses for the estate of Lisa McPherson? 5 A No. 6 Q Outside of you and Jesse Prince, did you know of 7 anyone else that was a witness in the case? 8 A No. I was just thinking that. I think we were 9 the only ones that were a witness in Lisa's case. I mean, 10 Stacy maybe. I don't know. I think she was. 11 Q Did I have any involvement in the management of 12 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 13 A No. 14 Q Who managed the Lisa McPherson Trust? 15 A Mmm, Stacy and Bob. It was those two, I would 16 say. 17 Q Between Stacy and Bob Minton, who was actually in 18 control? 19 A Well, Bob was ultimately in control. 20 Q Okay. Do you recall a time when there were 21 anonymous people in Germany offering to send money to the 22 Lisa McPherson Trust? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you know if they required any conditions before 25 they would send in their money?
64 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was that? 3 A That we were a nonprofit. 4 Q Do you know if anyone at the Lisa McPherson Trust 5 told these anonymous German people that you were nonprofit? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Who was that? 8 A Stacy. 9 Q Was the Lisa McPherson Trust ever nonprofit? 10 A Apparently not. 11 Q Did you think it was? 12 A Yes. She told me that, as well. When I started 13 working there, I thought it was a nonprofit organization. 14 Q Did you ever get this anonymous money from Germany 15 from the people that required it to be a nonprofit? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you ever hear Stacy Brooks make any comments 18 about Ken Dandar in reference to the wrongful death case? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What did you hear? 21 A That -- Mmm -- you were an incompetent attorney, 22 and that you had allowed Scientology to use the Lisa 23 McPherson death case to pull Bob Minton into discovery so 24 that his finances -- so they could discover, you know, 25 information about his finances.
65 1 Q Did Stacy Brooks ever tell you about me following 2 any of her suggestions or orders or whatever concerning how 3 to run the wrongful death case? 4 A She -- she actually did the opposite. Because she 5 complained about you not doing what she wanted you to do. 6 And if you would listen to her, you know, she wouldn't be 7 having the problems she was having. So that is the only 8 thing I heard. 9 Q Did Stacy Brooks ever describe the relationship 10 between the Lisa McPherson Trust and the wrongful death 11 case? 12 A There was no relationship the way she described it 13 to me. They were separate entities and it was only 14 ScientologY who was connecting the whole thing out, you 15 know. 16 Q Did she ever use a -- I can't think of the word 17 right now -- an analogy to a certain animal? 18 A Yes. The gecko theory. 19 Q What was the gecko theory? 20 A Stacy explained this to me one day, that the 21 trust -- this was during when everything had blown up in 22 August and we were really worried about losing the whole 23 trust. 24 Q August of what year? 25 A I'm sorry. 2001.
66 1 Q Okay, last August? 2 A Yes. Right. And she was saying that the trust 3 was a gecko, and the case, the Lisa case, was the tail. And 4 the tail was causing a lot of problems so the gecko needed 5 to drop the tail so that it could move on and survive. And 6 that was her little gecko theory. 7 Q Did she ever explain to anyone else besides you -- 8 A I don't know. I think when she told me, it was 9 just her and I. 10 Q So did there come a point in time when you, as one 11 of the -- well, were you an officer of the corporation? 12 A I was made vice-president in March or something of 13 that year. 14 Q Okay. 2001? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q Did there come a point in time when Stacy was 17 talking about the LMT not having enough money to pay its 18 employees? 19 A Oh, yes. Certainly. 20 Q When did that start? 21 A Well, I believe it started, as well, in March. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I honestly am not quite sure. It was a problem. 24 I think it was March or April of 2001 when -- when -- we got 25 paid late for the first time.
67 1 Q Do you know how the trust was able to fund money 2 to get people paid? 3 A It came from Bob. Stacy went to Bob and begged 4 it, basically, every month. Finally -- you know, it was 5 very odd because she would fly there and she would say, 6 "Okay, I'm going to come back with the money." And 7 sometimes she would, and sometimes she wouldn't, you know, 8 she would be staying. 9 She was always doing the same, like, "I'll be back 10 tomorrow," then she wouldn't come. "I'll be back tomorrow." 11 And this could go on for days. 12 Finally, she would arrive with a check, it would 13 be taken across the street to the bank, whatever it was, 14 Bank of America, and deposited, then we could write our 15 checks. Or she would give us our paychecks. 16 Q How did Stacy Brooks react to the depositions in 17 the Lisa McPherson case taken of her and the LMT? 18 A You are talking about in August of 2001. Well, 19 that was just a very -- it was crazed. She was just crazed. 20 Bob -- she and Bob -- the whole thing was a mess because she 21 went into that deposition and she testified about money that 22 had come over from Operation Clambake. 23 And after that Bob Minton was just furious, 24 absolutely furious; that he was yelling at her on the phone, 25 and she was in tears because he was -- and he was mad with
68 1 John Merrett saying how -- you know, how dare John Merrett 2 let her testify to that, she should have pled the Fifth, and 3 it was just a frantic time. 4 In fact, John Merrett and Bob Minton got into such 5 an argument that Merrett left. I think he quit. He said 6 like, "I'm not working for you anymore," and went back to 7 Jacksonville. 8 THE COURT: When was this? 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what? 10 THE COURT: When was this? 11 THE WITNESS: After August of 2001, after that 12 deposition where she testified about -- I can't 13 remember how much it was -- $500,000 or $600,000. 14 THE COURT: When you say August of 2001 -- 15 THE WITNESS: Right? 16 THE COURT: -- was this right after the 17 deposition? 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. 19 THE COURT: When Ms. Brooks and Mr. Merrett 20 came back to the office? 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 THE COURT: And what was said? 23 THE WITNESS: Right. 24 THE COURT: How did he find out about it? 25 THE WITNESS: You know, I think it might have
69 1 been like the next day or something. 2 What was said about it? 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 THE WITNESS: First there was discussions on 5 the phone with Bob. Stacy was very nervous and 6 upset. And at that point we were -- we were kind of 7 friends. We were friends at that point. 8 And she would call me into her office and just 9 say, "Oh, you know, I messed up and I testified to 10 this. And Bob is just furious. And --" but it went 11 on and on. 12 You know, at times she was in the office with 13 the door closed with John Merrett on the phone with 14 Bob. And, of course, I don't know what they said 15 during that time. 16 But it was very -- it was a real upsetting 17 thing. It was a very upsetting -- it was just real 18 upsetting. It had the whole office in an uproar. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Did -- do you know of any plans that were made to 21 try to relieve this mistake they made by talking about money 22 from Operation Clambake in reference to contact with Dell 23 Liebreich? 24 A Yes. Yes, which was also around everything. 25 Right after that August deposition, things just really blew
70 1 up. She called me into her office again one day and she 2 told me -- she said, "I'm going to do something. I want to 3 do something. But if Bob finds out, he'll never speak to me 4 again. And I don't want to do it without telling him, but I 5 just can't tell him." 6 I said, "What is it?" 7 She said, "I'm going to call Dell myself and I'm 8 going to tell her to drop the case." 9 And I said, "Wow. You're going to do that?" 10 She said, "Bob will never talk to me again. He'll 11 never talk to me again." 12 And we discussed it a little bit. And she went on 13 and said, "Oh, I want to do this. I'm really afraid to do 14 this." 15 And -- and nothing -- I don't really -- I'm not 16 quite sure what happened at that time. I think she did 17 finally tell Bob, and he said, "No, you can't do that." 18 However, it was just a couple weeks later -- 19 actually, it was the very day that I left in September, so 20 it was about a month later, it came up again, and -- she was 21 going to do it again. 22 Oh, I know, she was in New Hampshire is what 23 happened, but she was coming back to the trust that night to 24 spend the weekend with me and Patrick Jost. And she called 25 me from New Hampshire and said, "I'm not coming back. I'm
71 1 going to Texas instead." 2 And at the same time she E-mailed Patrick Jost and 3 said, "I'm not coming back. I'm going to Texas. I'm going 4 to get Dell Liebreich to drop the case." 5 So Patrick and I are like, "Wow, she's not coming 6 back, she's going to Texas." 7 Well, she ended up not going. She came back. She 8 shows up. We're like, "Now what is happening?" 9 I'm not sure, of course, what happened that 10 brought her back to Clearwater instead of going to Texas. 11 But, Mmm, sometime during the time when we found out she was 12 going to Texas and she returned, I told Jeff, I told Jeff 13 Jacobsen, that Stacy is going to Texas. 14 He said, "Yeah? Is she coming back?" 15 I said, "No, she's going to Texas. 16 "What is she going to Texas for? 17 "She's going to ask Dell to drop the case." 18 And he was real upset about it. Jeff has been 19 very involved, long before he got to the trust, in Lisa and 20 memorializing Lisa, so he was real upset about it. 21 So when Stacy came back, he confronted her on it. 22 And she just stood right there and said, "Oh, no, I wasn't 23 going to Texas. Where did you hear that? I wasn't going to 24 Texas to get her to drop the case." 25 Patrick and I were just like, wow. It was insane.
72 1 That is what I know about. 2 Q Let's -- let's talk about Bob Minton. 3 A Okay. 4 Q Did Bob Minton -- you said, I think, when Stacy 5 talked about getting money in from Operation Clambake, he 6 got very upset about it? 7 A Right. He was really upset about it. 8 Q Did you ever understand why he was upset about it? 9 A Well, Mmm, at the time I was trying to figure it 10 out myself, you know, because I couldn't get any straight 11 answers from Stacy. 12 And I didn't -- really wasn't comfortable enough 13 with Bob. It was his money. I wasn't going to Bob and 14 say -- I really wasn't comfortable enough with Bob to do 15 that. 16 I talked about it with some of my family members. 17 Q Who? 18 A My brother-in-laws who were both very successful 19 businessmen. And I just ran it past them. You have a 20 company, you -- it's a company. Bob Minton is paying all 21 our paychecks because -- here is what happened. You get 22 $500,000 donated to the trust. Every penny of it goes to 23 the chairman of the board, and we didn't get paid that 24 month. You know, what, does that sound crooked, you know? 25 They are like, "Get out. You need to get out of
73 1 that company," is what both of them said to me. 2 I talked to Brian Haney about it. And ultimately 3 I talked to Patrick Jost about it. And I -- I kept 4 thinking, is he laundering money? But -- they don't really 5 know anything about laundering money, but Patrick is -- used 6 to work for the Treasury Department in their money 7 laundering department. He's an advisor -- was an advisor to 8 Bob. He had gone to Switzerland with Bob. 9 And I talked to Patrick that day and I said, 10 "Patrick, what is he doing? What is with this money? Is he 11 laundering it?" 12 He said, "No, no, that is not money laundering, it 13 is tax evasion." That is what he said. 14 I said, "Oh, okay." 15 Q Let me interrupt you. 16 A I'm sorry. 17 Q I hate to interrupt. You were on a flow there. 18 Patrick Jost -- 19 A Yes? 20 Q -- worked for Bob Minton? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And how do you know that Patrick Jost went to 23 Switzerland with Bob? 24 A Because he told me. 25 Q When was this?
74 1 A It was the very last day I was there. It would 2 have been September 6th. 3 Q And when did he go to Switzerland with Bob Minton? 4 A Mmm, I think he had gone twice, he said. And I 5 know one of them was over a holiday, probably the previous 6 Christmas, because he had described how he had gotten stuck 7 in France or somewhere coming back and Bob had gone ahead 8 and there was a problem with him getting back, over the 9 holidays. 10 Q Did he ever tell you what he did in Switzerland? 11 A He told me he was helping Bob with his finances, 12 but he really wouldn't go into detail. 13 THE COURT: Who is this, Mr. Jost? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q He's the former Treasury Department money 17 laundering specialist? 18 A Right. Yes. Right. 19 Q Did you have any understanding as to whose money 20 it was that Stacy forgot to plead the Fifth Amendment to in 21 her deposition and answered the question by Mr. Moxon as to 22 receiving this money from Operation Clambake? 23 A I don't understand your question. I'm sorry, I 24 don't know what you -- 25 Q When I start to pace, I know it's going to be a
75 1 long question. 2 Did you ever have an understanding who was the 3 source of the money from Operation Clambake? 4 A Oh. Mmm, yeah. My understanding that it was Bob 5 was the source of the money. 6 Q How did you know that? 7 A From -- Patrick told me that during our 8 discussions. 9 Q Well, so why was it coming from Operation 10 Clambake? 11 A Mmm, see, that was the tax evasion part. It was 12 as a donation. Right? And I guess if it comes in as a 13 donation to a company, then rather than Bob bringing his own 14 money in -- you know, I don't know all of the details of 15 this, but this was my understanding -- that then he didn't 16 have to pay taxes because it was a donation to a company. 17 Q All right. 18 A You see? 19 Q Do you -- 20 A I don't know if that is correct. I'm just telling 21 you that is how it was explained to me. 22 Q By the tax -- 23 A By Patrick. 24 Q By Patrick? Do you have any idea of if other 25 donations came into the LMT from Europe?
76 1 A Yes. There were three of them, I believe, that 2 she testified to at that time. There were three different 3 donations for very large sums of money. 4 Q And do you know who was the source of that money? 5 A Anonymous German donors is what Stacy told me. 6 And -- they were from anonymous donors, she didn't even know 7 who they were. But my understanding was it was Bob's money. 8 Q But that you got only from Patrick Jost? 9 A That is where I got it, yes. 10 Q But Stacy told you it was anonymous? 11 A Right. 12 Q Do you know anything about a check to Ken Dandar 13 for $500,000 in May of 2000? 14 A No. 15 Q That is before you even went to work at the trust? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. Do you remember Bob Minton saying anything 18 about being concerned about not paying his taxes? 19 A No, I don't. 20 Q Okay. 21 A No. 22 Q Did you ever hear Stacy expressing any concern 23 about Scientology finding out how much money Bob Minton had 24 given her? 25 A Mmm, well, no. I think -- no, I'm just going to
77 1 say no. 2 Q Okay. Was there anything else that comes to mind 3 that Bob Minton expressed any upset over because of 4 something that Scientology did? 5 A Well, there -- he was frequently upset about 6 things Scientology had done. 7 They -- he told me once about how they had handed 8 out fliers at his daughter's school. And when they 9 posted -- they posted his psychiatric -- I don't know if 10 they were psychiatric or psychological counseling records on 11 the Internet. And I guess that included the records of his 12 daughters who had received counseling. And that was a 13 huge -- it was -- he was just almost suicidal over that. 14 That was a mess. 15 Q Are you serious when you say suicidal? 16 A Yes, he was. He literally was. I literally heard 17 him on the phone sobbing, saying, "I just can't take this 18 anymore." And he was in a very, very bad shape. 19 Q And when was this? 20 A Oh, well, that -- you know, I don't remember 21 exactly. But I'm pretty sure it was all within that last 22 month. It was when he was coming in for some kind of 23 deposition. It might have been early. It might have been 24 June, July, because we were doing so many depositions, 25 everybody was being called in. But it was right before some
78 1 deposition he had to go to for Scientology. 2 THE COURT: June or July of what year, ma'am? 3 THE WITNESS: 2001. It would have been 2001. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Well, he was scheduled on June 3rd, 2001 in a 6 deposition in Clearwater. And he didn't show up for it. 7 A All right. 8 Q All right. Do you know anything about that? 9 A Sure. Because that would have been right if that 10 is the same one. They had the Internet posting. He was 11 just incredibly upset about that. 12 Stacy was at the -- at the trust. And I was with 13 her. And, Mmm, and she was on the phone with him just -- 14 just repeatedly -- he was crying and sobbing. I heard him 15 once. She had him on the intercom at one point, and he was 16 just sobbing, and actually indicating that -- I thought he 17 sounded suicidal, and it was really frightening. And she 18 just took him off the intercom and turned around and started 19 talking to him. And I left. 20 However, throughout the day she continued talking, 21 because she was trying to get him to come in for this 22 deposition. 23 And she kept saying to me, "I'll get him. I'll 24 get him. You watch, I'll get him to come in." 25 She would talk to him. And a lot of times he
79 1 would just hang up on her, and -- he was so upset. 2 And she kept calling the airlines to change the 3 ticket, getting a later flight, getting a later flight until 4 there were no more flights to be had that night so he 5 couldn't possibly come. 6 And -- and that was during -- that whole thing 7 when he -- he was so upset he called someone, a woman named 8 Diane Palermo, and I think -- it must have been like a day 9 and a night and the next day was the deposition, because I 10 think he talked to her during the night and he talked to her 11 at length, and -- and then when he didn't show up for the 12 deposition, that became a problem. I think he was going to 13 be sanctioned for that or something. 14 And then they went and tried to get Diane to -- 15 to -- to, I think, do an affidavit that said she was his 16 counselor and she was very upset. But she wouldn't do it 17 because she was not a counselor. Then -- 18 MR. MOXON: May I interpose an objection as 19 to -- this is going on and on and on. 20 THE COURT: It really is. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 THE COURT: We need question and answer, 23 question and answer. 24 MR. DANDAR: I will. 25 THE COURT: We already had this.
80 1 MR. DANDAR: But this is -- 2 MR. MOXON: It is also not personal knowledge. 3 MR. DANDAR: We'll get to the personal 4 knowledge right now. 5 MR. MOXON: Well -- 6 MR. DANDAR: Because she kept going. I wanted 7 to make sure what it is based on. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q When you said that they tried to get her to sign 11 an affidavit -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- as her counselor, what do you base that on? 14 A Stacy telling me that. 15 MR. MOXON: Object to hearsay. 16 THE COURT: I don't think so. Stacy testified, 17 and I think there has been some impeachment of 18 Ms. Brooks, so I'll overrule it. 19 A She was telling me. When I was sitting in her 20 office, she would say, "We are trying to handle it, get 21 Diane to do it. Diane won't do it." It was sort of an 22 ongoing problem. "What should we do? Who can we call? How 23 can we fix this sort of thing?" You know. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Well, when Diane refused to -- I mean, was Diane
81 1 refusing because she was afraid of Scientology? I mean, do 2 you have personal knowledge as to why she refused? 3 A Well, I do now. I found out. She called me 4 personally after I left the trust and told me. 5 Q Did -- 6 A But at the time I did not. 7 Q Did you ever have knowledge that she was really 8 Bob Minton's counselor? 9 A She wasn't. Right. 10 Q Did they try to get someone else to file an 11 affidavit? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Who? 14 A Steve Hassan. 15 Q And do you know if Steve Hassan was ever Bob 16 Minton's counselor? 17 A He was not. 18 THE COURT: Who is Steve Hassan? 19 THE WITNESS: He is -- 20 THE COURT: Would you spell that name for the 21 court reporter, the last name. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. It is H-A-S-S-A-N. I 23 believe that is correct. 24 And he's a well-known -- what is he, like a 25 psychological expert on cult experience or
82 1 something. He has written several books. And he's 2 just very well known in the field. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Okay. All right. Were there other times when Bob 5 Minton called the Lisa McPherson Trust about pressures and 6 expressed -- that you heard him express the pressure of 7 Scientology? 8 A Sure. I mean, he did it a lot. He was very -- 9 THE COURT: Are we getting ready to get into a 10 new area here? 11 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 12 THE COURT: We'll take our afternoon break. 13 We'll be in recess for 20 minutes, 15 to 20 minutes. 14 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:20 to 2:40 p.m.) 15 _______________________________________ 16 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Dandar. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, could I interrupt 18 for one second? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: I have been sitting quietly, 21 and I know Mr. Moxon is handling this witness and 22 making the objections such as they are. I have a 23 generalized objection and observation to the line of 24 questioning here. 25 We seem to be getting into a generalized
83 1 analysis by one witness -- I think Mr. Alexander did 2 the same thing -- as to the meaning, interpretation, 3 of religious scripture and belief here. And what 4 you then wind up with is a record in which the 5 Church -- if this is all going to be admitted for 6 purposes as to what Scientology beliefs and 7 scripture are -- would be forced into the position 8 of then responding, and the Court would be put in 9 what I believe is an unconstitutional position of 10 trying to judge what is and is not Scientology 11 belief and practice. And -- 12 THE COURT: You know what I think, Counselor? 13 I think, number one, you are very late on this. 14 We're well past that. 15 Number two, save it for argument. I mean, I 16 can't judge everything that is going to come in on 17 whether or not this is going to impinge on First 18 Amendment. You save that and argue it ought to be 19 stricken later or what have you. But for now we 20 need to get this witness on and off and the next one 21 on and off. And we'll deal with those issues later. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: I appreciate what you are 23 saying, your Honor. What I am suggesting is that to 24 the extent that this kind of testimony does go on, 25 inevitably it is going to require extensive
84 1 rebuttal, because I don't know how your Honor is 2 going to rule at the end, after we have argument on 3 it, and we can't -- 4 THE COURT: Put on anything you want. This is 5 your motion. Handle it any way you want. 6 Mr. Dandar, continue. 7 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Ms. Summers, did there ever come a time when 10 documents and other papers were shredded at the Lisa 11 McPherson Trust? 12 A Well, yes. 13 Q And under what circumstances? 14 A Mmm, well, there was not one time when documents 15 were shredded. I shredded documents all of the time because 16 I was working with people and -- who invariably did not want 17 Scientology to find out who they were. And so I shredded a 18 lot of stuff. And there was a lot of excess that I just 19 didn't need. 20 Mmm, there was a time when there was delivered to 21 our office some sort of legal paper, I don't really know 22 what it was, notice or something, that had to do with 23 FACTNet, which was a previous organization run by Bob and 24 Stacy, I guess. And when that came, at that point Stacy was 25 very concerned that they were going to -- okay, I believe
85 1 during this FACTNet, they had made some kind of settlement 2 with Scientology where they were not allowed to start up any 3 kind of similar organization. And when we got this from -- 4 this document from Scientology attorneys, she was afraid 5 that they were alerting us -- well, that is what she said -- 6 they were telling us they're now going to claim the trust as 7 a successor organization and they're going to come in and 8 try to get our records, try to get our records, it was 9 always. And we did a lot -- we got rid of a lot -- anything 10 that was copyrighted; anything we had that was sitting 11 around or whatever on our desks, you know, on our computers, 12 we got rid of those and we shredded those. We did a lot of 13 shredding then. 14 Then again, there was -- oh, when we were just 15 converting everything onto disk, you know, so we didn't have 16 it all in paper form but we kept everything, everything was 17 scanned, put on disk, then we just shredded paperwork. So 18 there was a lot of shredding going on. 19 Q Was there ever a point in time when you shredded 20 paper so that you wouldn't have to produce it pursuant to a 21 court order? 22 A No. 23 Q Was there ever a point in time when you destroyed 24 either CDs or hard drives or erased them because you didn't 25 want to produce what was on there pursuant to a court order?
86 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton say that he 3 controlled the Lisa McPherson case? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton or Stacy Brooks or 6 anyone at the trust say, "Let's go out and picket 7 Scientology because it will help the Lisa McPherson case"? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you ever hear why there was any picketing at 10 all from the people either employed or associated or friends 11 of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 12 A Yes. My understanding was that Jeff Jacobsen, who 13 was an employee, had actually sort of started people 14 picketing and vigils for Lisa before he even came to work at 15 the trust, I believe, in '96 or something. 16 And it was sort of just -- it was kind of his -- 17 Mmm, I don't know -- his -- you know, his personemic thing, 18 I'm going to picket and memorialize Lisa. I believe that is 19 where that came from. He was pretty much the one most 20 wrapped up in the picketing and stuff. Well, and Bob. Bob 21 really enjoyed picketing. 22 Q Yes? 23 A I remember -- 24 Q Do you remember that pole with the horn? 25 A Certainly.
87 1 Q Did you ever see me in the trust telling him my 2 comments about that pole, ten-foot pole and the horn at the 3 end? 4 A Oh, gosh. Yeah, I'm sure you weren't happy with 5 that pole. I -- okay. I'm going to say I don't remember 6 clearly. It seems to me that there were a lot of people 7 with discussions about that pole. And so I can't clearly 8 remember, Ken, honestly. 9 Q Do you remember Bob Minton with a Nazi sign? 10 A No. I never saw Bob with a Nazi sign. 11 Q Okay. All right. Did you ever hear anyone say, 12 "Let's destroy these records, computers, CDs, anything, so 13 we can protect the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case"? 14 A No. 15 Q Did I ever request anything be removed or shredded 16 or destroyed? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know if I ever came and told people at the 19 Lisa McPherson Trust any confidential information that I had 20 about the Lisa McPherson case? 21 A Well, I don't know that. No. Not to my 22 knowledge, you didn't. 23 Q Do you know if anyone at the trust was trying to 24 get confidential information from me? 25 A No.
88 1 Q While we're still on the trust, let's see -- oh, 2 do you know if Stacy Brooks ever expressed her opinion to 3 you or in your presence concerning how or why Lisa died? 4 A Well, she did. When I first went to work there -- 5 you have to remember I didn't know her. And she was -- I 6 was in her office and she was sort of explaining her 7 background. 8 She had a big -- Mmm -- big closet in her office 9 that was just filled with copies of depositions she had done 10 in court cases for years, apparently. And she was showing 11 it to me and explaining, you know, her activism and what she 12 had done. 13 Then she explained that she had worked with you -- 14 I didn't even realize she was still working with you at that 15 time -- on the Lisa case. 16 And she told -- she told me that she had read -- 17 she said, "They killed -- you know they killed her on 18 purpose." 19 I said, "No." 20 She said, "Yeah, they did. And I know because I 21 read her PC folder." She said that Lisa had been trying to 22 get out of Scientology for a year. And that she thought 23 that they had killed her on purpose. 24 Q Now, did she ever say -- did she ever say that 25 with any hesitation?
89 1 A No. She was trying to convince me. 2 Q Did she ever tell you or did you ever hear her say 3 to anyone that she had filed false declarations in the past? 4 A No. Of course not. 5 Q Did she ever express to you what she thought about 6 her past declarations and testimony? 7 A Yes. She was very proud of it. You know, she 8 explained it to me. I remember her explaining her position, 9 what this whole -- I think it was the Wollersheim case, how 10 they had -- she had been there when they had -- I don't 11 know, they closed one org, I guess it was the Church of 12 Scientology California, so they could hide the assets so 13 Wollersheim couldn't get any. And she was real proud of 14 that and she talked about her involvement in that and how 15 she testified, and she actually talked about how they had 16 tried to get her to not testify. She told me a lot. She 17 explained a lot about it and she was very proud of it. 18 Q So did she testify for Mr. Wollersheim or for the 19 Church of Scientology? 20 A She -- 21 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Foundation. 22 MR. DANDAR: What? 23 MR. MOXON: Foundation. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what? 25 MR. MOXON: She's not testifying about what she
90 1 thought Stacy Brooks testified to or what case she 2 testified in. The record will speak for itself what 3 she did. 4 THE COURT: That is true. But if she told her, 5 she can tell us what she told her. But we already 6 know so I don't know why -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm not sure. That is why I 8 just wanted to clarify. 9 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Did Stacy tell you, when you said that the Church 12 of Scientology California -- the assets were taken out of it 13 so Wollersheim wouldn't get paid, did she actually testify 14 in a case about that? 15 A Yes. And she had the depositions, copies of 16 her -- or the testimony. She had copies of those all in 17 this closet. Right. 18 Q All right. When she testified in a deposition 19 about that, do you know, did she tell you that she was 20 testifying for Mr. Wollersheim, or against Mr. Wollersheim? 21 A For Mr. Wollersheim. 22 Q Okay. And did she tell you, when she testified 23 for Mr. Wollersheim, she was talking about her personal 24 experience, that this went on while she was inside the 25 Church of Scientology?
91 1 A Right. Right. 2 Q While you were a member of the Church of 3 Scientology for 20 years, public and staff, did you ever 4 hear of the tech or policies spoken of as scripture or holy 5 scripture? 6 A No. 7 Q You said you left Scientology in 1999 as a public 8 member? 9 A Uh-huh. 10 Q When you left the Sea Org in '87 -- 11 A Yes? 12 Q -- what did you do? Did you just say "I quit" and 13 walked out? 14 A No. 15 Q What? 16 A Mmm, I had to do a routing form. 17 THE COURT: Do what? 18 THE WITNESS: I was just going to ask if you 19 knew what that was. A routing form. Do you know -- 20 want me to explain that? 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 THE WITNESS: In Scientology a routing form is 23 a list of steps you have to take, basically, to -- 24 to get through something. Like when you finish a 25 course you get a stapled sheet of many papers. And
92 1 you have to go with this paper -- you have to write 2 a success story. You have to go here, go there, and 3 everyone has to do something and check it off, then 4 you are done, you can move on. 5 So when I leave staff -- whenever you leave 6 staff, you have to do a routing form that routes you 7 through the proper places, right, to get out. 8 So I had to -- you know, I had to do all these 9 steps. I had to get some auditing. And then I 10 finished a routing form. And, theoretically, I was 11 supposed to then be able to leave. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q And did you? 14 A Well, no, I didn't leave. The problem was when I 15 joined the Sea Org, I had sold my car because at that time 16 you weren't supposed to have a car. They provided 17 transportation, so I was told I should not bring my car. So 18 I sold my car. 19 And, you know, I had lived here a year and a half 20 but I had never driven myself anywhere. I had only been -- 21 I had only really been between the QI and Ft. Harrison. I 22 had never been anywhere. 23 Q QI is staffing for the residents? 24 A Yes. 25 MR. MOXON: Objection to this. What is the
93 1 relevance? 2 THE COURT: Yes, what is the relevance? 3 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to get there. Two 4 questions and I'll show you in a minute. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right? 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q And in your process of leaving, what were you 9 about to tell us? 10 A Okay. So -- and, of course, I was paid nothing. 11 I mean, at that time I -- well, I know I was paid $20 a 12 week. So I had no resources, really. 13 So I did the routing form, and I was supposed to 14 be allowed to go at that time. But -- but they would not 15 let me leave. And they even asked -- told me that they 16 wanted me to go on a tour and recruit someone to replace 17 myself before they would give me the okay to go. 18 Only I had a 6-year-old daughter at that time who 19 was living at the QI. And I wasn't going to leave her 20 there. Who knows, you could be gone months on something 21 like that. 22 So basically I had to -- I snuck out. I mean, I 23 called a sister who -- I had my own PO box which they didn't 24 know about. Most people -- oh, there is like a central 25 place where you get mail, you know, so nothing is private,
94 1 you know. But I had a PO box. She bought me tickets to 2 North Carolina. She mailed them to me. 3 And I packed my bags and hid them under a bed 4 and -- and I called the airport van. And I just went and I 5 had -- told her to come to the QI and pick me up. And I 6 went to my job -- I wasn't even on a job, I was just kind of 7 hanging around. When you are off -- I was a down stat then, 8 you see, so no one was being nice to me. I had no 9 privileges. I didn't really have a job to do but I couldn't 10 go. 11 So, anyway, so what I did, I just got on the bus, 12 went to the QI for lunch, went back to the nursery and got 13 my little girl, and got our bags, and just stood by the 14 window. When that van pulled up I just ran out to the van 15 and we took off. 16 Q Did you ever take a course in Scientology called 17 the PTS/SP course? 18 A Yes. 19 Q "SP" stands for? 20 A Suppressive person. 21 Q And PTS stands for? 22 A Potential trouble source. 23 Q And that PTS/SP course, is that a course public 24 and staff members take? 25 A Yes.
95 1 Q Is it a basic course? 2 A Yes. 3 Q I want to hand you what has been marked as 4 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 2 called "Search and Discovery." 5 Is this something from the PTS/SP course? 6 A I believe so. 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I note the same 8 objection I raised before. Now we're going into a 9 Scientology policy and she's going to interpret it. 10 She's not -- it is improper for her to interpret it. 11 THE COURT: How is it you-all are going to get 12 through this trial and not tell this jury that Lisa 13 McPherson was involved in Step 0 and 00 at the 14 introspection rundown without explaining Church 15 policy? 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: But it is -- under the 17 constitution, your Honor, and cases, it is for the 18 Church to define its policies and it is not for 19 somebody who is outside the Church to attempt to 20 give an interpretation of them. How is the Court 21 going to be in a position of hearing purportedly 22 conflicting testimony as to what a religious belief 23 or practice is or means and then decide? Is a civil 24 court going to decide what the meaning -- 25 THE COURT: I don't know that --
96 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- content of a religious -- 2 THE COURT: I don't know there is going to be 3 any conflicting matters here. I don't know what 4 she's going to say. 5 But I said, all I suggest if you don't want a 6 jury to know anything about Church policy, you just 7 want the jury to think that Lisa McPherson somehow 8 was in a hotel room being taken care of, not being 9 talked to, by anybody there, and not explain that 10 this was part of Church doctrine, well, that is 11 fine. But I suspect you do. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: That is not what I'm saying. 13 THE COURT: Well, then if you do, then I think 14 they're entitled to have some folks explain what 15 they know about some of this, too. Maybe I'm wrong, 16 but for today I'm going to take this testimony and 17 we'll argue about that later. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: All right. 19 THE COURT: Continue. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Now, did you study, as part of this course, this 22 Search and Discovery HCO bulletin? 23 A Well, to tell you the truth, I can't say if I 24 studied it as part of that course. I didn't complete that 25 course. But this policy is in one of the basic books. I
97 1 have seen this many times. 2 Q Were you ever subjected to this particular policy? 3 MR. MOXON: Objection to form, your Honor. 4 Subjected now? 5 THE COURT: Yes, I don't know what you are 6 talking about. 7 MR. MOXON: Yes. 8 THE COURT: I thought it was a course. How 9 could you be subjected to a course? 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Well, let me ask -- let me rephrase it then. 12 This policy on Search and Discovery where it talks 13 about Type III, you previously said that you knew that at 14 the Ft. Harrison Hotel people who had psychiatric breaks 15 were not permitted to be at the hotel. 16 A Right. 17 Q And you said there was a Flag order on that? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Does this Search and Discovery also talk about 20 that, as well? 21 A Mmm, what this talks about is that Scientology is 22 not equipped to handle Type III. Let me look. 23 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I object. She 24 indicated she doesn't -- she's not familiar with 25 this now.
98 1 THE COURT: Yes, I think she's the wrong person 2 to ask this. 3 MR. DANDAR: I'll pass -- 4 THE COURT: I'll grant it. 5 MR. DANDAR: I'll pass on it. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Can you explain to the Court, within your 8 understanding, after being a member for 20 years, what a 9 potential trouble source is? 10 A Well, right. Someone who is connected up to a 11 suppressive group or -- or individual, organization, who is 12 a potential cause of trouble in the Church, or even just for 13 themselves. 14 Q And were you on any type of course or program that 15 concerned either SP, suppressive persons, or PTS people when 16 you left your staff position? 17 A My staff position? No. 18 Q All right. What about when you left in '99? 19 A Yes. 20 THE COURT: When you left what? 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q In '99? 1999? 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 A Yes. I was on the PTS/SP course at that time. 25
99 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Is that why you didn't finish it? 3 A Yes. Because I left. 4 Q Okay. Did you ever hear anyone at the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust talk about there being some type of 6 agreement between the estate and the trust or Minton to pay 7 the bulk of the proceeds from the settlement or judgment in 8 the Lisa McPherson case to Mr. Minton or the LMT? 9 A Well, I spoke with Stacy about that because I -- 10 the allegations were being made, I believe in depositions, 11 that that was the case. And, Mmm, and I did ask Stacy. 12 And she said, "No, you know, certainly that is not 13 true. It is just what the Church is trying to drum up to 14 create problems." 15 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton talk about that? 16 A I'm sure I did. And he said the same thing, you 17 know, you know, "There is no agreement. It's -- you know, 18 it's just them drumming up stuff." 19 Q In your 20 years as a member of the Scientology 20 religion, did you ever have -- come across a term 21 "acceptable truth"? 22 A Mmm, yeah -- yes. 23 Q And how did you come across that? 24 A Yes. I think it was in the dissemination course 25 is when I first -- you know, it's very hard for me to
100 1 pinpoint exactly where. Over the years I studied a lot of 2 different policies. But certainly there is such a thing as 3 an acceptable truth and dealing with someone at their 4 reality level, that sort of thing. 5 Q Does the -- from what you either read or learned, 6 does the term "acceptable truth" have anything to do with 7 telling somebody something that is not true? 8 A Well, it could. You know, what -- what it 9 describes is -- is giving somebody that you are speaking 10 with a truth that they can accept as true, whether or not it 11 is completely true or not. 12 And when I said -- you know, you use the 13 dissemination course, it is one of the things you are 14 taught, for example, when someone is asking you, what is 15 Scientology, or specifically if they have heard about the -- 16 Mmm -- sort of some of the more -- the beliefs about other 17 planets or other beings and that sort of thing, that you 18 never discuss that with them, that you always find something 19 that is more real to them. You bring it down on a level, 20 you know, and give them something that they can accept that 21 is real, that is real to them, that they can latch onto. 22 And then gradiently, after they are in Scientology, you 23 bring them along, bring them along. 24 Q Now, you mentioned a "drop the body." Is that a 25 term that you learned in Scientology?
101 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you know of any other processes such as "at 3 cause," any terms like that? 4 A Well, yeah. "At cause" is used all of the time. 5 It's -- yes. 6 Q What does that mean? 7 A It's to put the individual in a causative, you 8 know, so that you are in a causative position in your life. 9 You're the one creating things, you're the one making things 10 happen, rather than having other people or -- or other 11 events having an effect upon you, if that makes sense. 12 Q Have you ever seen, in your 20 years, the term "at 13 cause" used in connection with helping someone to die? 14 A Mmm, no. 15 Q Okay. 16 A Well, except for -- you know, it would have to 17 relate back to the guy who got the auditing, because that is 18 what I was told, he was going to have auditing procedures to 19 help him drop his body, at cause. So actually, yes, in that 20 instance, I did, you know, but it's not something I just 21 studied. 22 Q And in Keeping Scientology Working, does 23 Mr. Hubbard talk about what he thinks in reference to death 24 versus not being -- 25 A Oh, yes.
102 1 Q -- capable? 2 A He does. Right. I would rather have you dead 3 than incapable. I believe is in Case W1. 4 THE COURT: What? 5 A I would rather have you dead than incapable. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Now, did you learn in Scientology something called 8 a tone scale? 9 A Certainly. 10 Q What is that? 11 A It's an emotional scale -- it's a -- it's just a 12 scale that has different emotional levels, you know, 13 designations, really, from very low tone, the lowest of 14 which is like death or apathy, up to a higher tones, 15 cheerfulness and causativeness and that sort of thing. 16 MR. MOXON: Objection. Relevance to this area 17 of questioning. 18 THE COURT: What is the relevance of this? 19 MR. DANDAR: It is coming right now. 20 MR. MOXON: Well, that is what he keeps -- 21 THE COURT: Well, you know, he has to ask what 22 it is before he can ask the relevant questions. So 23 let's hear it. 24 MR. DANDAR: It is coming now hopefully in this 25 question or the next, but it is coming right now.
103 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q And in your personal experience, did you ever use 3 the tone scale on someone who is chronically ill? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Who? 6 A My father. 7 Q How? 8 A My father was chronically ill. He had kidney 9 disease. And I was living with him at the time. This was 10 in Ohio. 11 Q While you were a member of the Church of 12 Scientology? 13 A Yes. I was. 14 Q All right. 15 A And I was having a very difficult time with him. 16 And I went into the Church and -- for help. And I said, 17 "Look, I don't know how to deal with him. He's driving me 18 crazy, basically. It's very difficult, you know." 19 And Kevin Leach, who I believe was ethics officer 20 at that time, brought me the Science of Survival book -- 21 Q This is a book -- 22 A Basic Scientology book. 23 Q -- entitled Science of -- 24 A Science of Survival. It is all about the tone 25 scale is what it is.
104 1 Q All right. 2 A It is a very thick book. And he had me look at -- 3 find where chronic illness was on this chart, you know. 4 I wish we could have brought the chart -- I could 5 have brought the chart. And showed that it is at the level 6 of apathy, which is very low tone, and had me read a section 7 in the book where it describes apathy. 8 And it was just -- it described the apathetic 9 person is just a cesspool of overts, and they are just -- 10 you know, they're not worth the trouble, they are just there 11 to hurt you. And it really described them in a way that it 12 was very cruel, really, to me now, I think. 13 And -- Mmm -- anyway, that was the -- you know, 14 and I was really told that I should just not give my dad 15 any -- just not to care much because he was so low tone, he 16 was trying to die. Because low tone people, you see, are 17 trying to succumb. That is part of the tech. 18 And so he was just going to turbulate me. 19 Q Do you recall Mr. Hubbard, in that book, Science 20 of Survival, saying if you can't get them to come up tone, 21 they should be quietly done away with and without sorrow? 22 A Quietly done away with without sorrow is 23 definitely part of that. And also there is a portion where 24 he talks about segregating low tone people from society. 25 That is definitely in Science of Survival.
105 1 THE COURT: Definitely in what? 2 THE WITNESS: Science of Survival. A book 3 called Science of Survival. 4 MR. MOXON: Now that we heard what his 5 relevance is, your Honor, I see it is just to try to 6 put some weird sort of interpretation on a book 7 written in 1952 that is obviously not relevant to 8 this. 9 THE COURT: What is the relevance of that? 10 MR. DANDAR: It is a book written by 11 Mr. Hubbard that every Scientologist has access to 12 or does read. It is not called the Religion of 13 Survival; it is called the Science of Survival. And 14 it says -- by Mr. Hubbard -- that chronically ill 15 people are the lowest on the tone scale, and if you 16 can't get any improvement, you let them be "quietly 17 done away with without sorrow," meaning they just 18 die. 19 This goes to Paragraph 34 which they make a big 20 fuss over saying I have no evidence. I have an 21 abundance of evidence. 22 THE WITNESS: And it is not -- 23 THE COURT: I'm going to let it in subject to 24 discussions at a later time. 25 Where is this book? Don't you have these
106 1 books? 2 MR. DANDAR: I do. I wasn't going to -- I 3 mean, I could go to my car right now and bring it in 4 if you want me to. 5 THE COURT: But you have the ability to -- to 6 show me this? 7 MR. DANDAR: Oh, yes. We will. 8 Well, I may have the ability to do it right 9 now. 10 MR. MOXON: Again, this does demonstrate, your 11 Honor, the irrelevance of this. He's taking 12 millions of words that are written by L. Ron 13 Hubbard, he's trying to take something which is out 14 of context. It doesn't say what he said in any 15 event, but even if there is a work written fifty 16 years ago, a sentence of a book written fifty years 17 ago which deals with helping people, and Mr. Dandar 18 says, well, we're essentially -- what we're doing 19 here is we're going to have a Harrison trial and 20 show Scientology has some bad beliefs. 21 I could pull out the Bible, too, and go through 22 many, many passages in there, if that is 23 Mr. Dandar's religion. 24 THE COURT: You filed a motion saying his 25 pleading is a fraud, he had no basis in fact and, in
107 1 fact, it was fraudulent and untrue and perjurious. 2 And he's now trying to show how he, by reading 3 some of the things, he could say this. So I think 4 for this hearing this comes in. 5 MR. MOXON: Okay, well, Mr. Lieberman is more 6 of an expert on this. 7 But just as an example, supposing this was not 8 the Church of Scientology, it was a Baptist church 9 where this happened. Would we be bringing out then 10 the Bible and showing different passages in it and 11 saying, "Since you believe this, this is proof that 12 in 1995 you committed a particular act with respect 13 to a specific person"? 14 THE COURT: I don't know. It's very difficult 15 for me to say that because if you were in the 16 Baptist church you would not be taking care of 17 somebody who was chronically ill. I don't know. 18 This is a wrongful death case, and for whatever 19 reason, based on the Church's practice, the Church 20 had Ms. McPherson in their custody doing a Church 21 procedure. That is what the Church has said from 22 the very beginning of this case. And because this 23 was a Church procedure called introspection rundown, 24 that is why she was where she was, doing a 25 Scientology procedure.
108 1 So, consequently, it's very difficult for me to 2 listen to the Church now at this time saying it is 3 okay for us to use it, because that is the only way, 4 by the way, a jury could understand this, but they 5 don't get to use any of it. 6 So, you know, I think you are wrong. We'll let 7 Mr. Lieberman address it at an appropriate time. 8 And like I said, we are not going to have any of the 9 documents of the Church in, and we're not going to 10 talk about introspection rundown, either, and then 11 you'll just have to have the jury trying to figure 12 out why in the world Ms. McPherson was in a hotel 13 with a bunch of folks looking after her and nobody 14 talking to her. 15 I mean, you're going to have to get into the 16 doctrine of the Church, it seems to me. I don't 17 want two of you arguing so, Counselor, sit down. 18 Mr. Moxon started this. 19 And so I may be wrong, but at this moment I 20 ruled and we're going to move on. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Routing forms, let's go back -- 23 THE COURT: And I want to know who is making 24 the objections here. Mr. Moxon, it will be you or 25 Mr. Lieberman. I'm not going to hear from you both.
109 1 Who is it? 2 MR. MOXON: I'm making the objections, your 3 Honor. Mr. Lieberman just wanted to point out this 4 broader issue. 5 THE COURT: And I understand that. And I'll 6 let him make his argument at the appropriate time. 7 But for now we're going to roll through this 8 testimony. You simply make objections, legal 9 objections, not First Amendment objections, legal 10 objections like hearsay and what have you. 11 And I understand just a load of hearsay has 12 been coming into this hearing, so -- and, remember, 13 this is Mr. Dandar and whether or not, when he filed 14 this complaint, he was perpetrating fraud on the 15 Court. 16 MR. DANDAR: That sure is what the allegation 17 is. 18 THE COURT: It sure is. So continue on. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q I said routing forms. I was wrong. Go back to 21 the Science of Survival book. 22 A Right. 23 Q It was written in 1952. When did this man, this 24 ethics officer in Ohio, give this to you to read? 25 A That was in probably '93. But I was studying it
110 1 in 1999 when I left. It was the book I was reading in from 2 my course. 3 Q All right. In the 20 years as a member of the 4 Church of Scientology, are you aware of anything that 5 Mr. Hubbard wrote that they threw away and told you, "Don't 6 look at it anymore"? 7 A No. 8 THE COURT: I am. 9 THE WITNESS: What? 10 THE COURT: Fair game. 11 MR. DANDAR: Oh -- 12 THE WITNESS: Not true. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q How about fair game? 15 A Fair game was not canceled. The use of the term 16 "fair game" was not -- we were not allowed to use, because 17 it created bad publicity. But the rules of fair game 18 weren't canceled. 19 Q Speaking of fair game, did you -- 20 THE COURT: I thought fair game was not 21 canceled for a suppressive person but was canceled 22 for everything else, per the policy that I have 23 seen. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Is that true?
111 1 A I think the policy just says use of the term "fair 2 game" has been canceled. 3 Q You just can't go around using the term "fair 4 game"? 5 A "Raw meat" was another. We used to call it public 6 raw meat when I first got there. In fact -- 7 Q Who thought that up? 8 A I mean, it was in one of the original admin, 9 A-D-M-I-N, dictionaries. 10 Q Administration? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What about the term "WOGs"? 13 THE COURT: I already know enough about WOGs. 14 MR. DANDAR: All right. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Routing forms? 17 A Yes? 18 Q Are routing forms part of the PC folder? 19 A Mmm, you know, I just can't say. I honestly don't 20 know what all goes into a PC folder. 21 Q All right. That is fine. 22 A But there is policy on it. 23 Q So if we just opened the book and said -- 24 A You should be able to find out how -- yes, the 25 reg --
112 1 Q Within your knowledge of programs in Scientology, 2 would you expect the MLO office to be trying to put Lisa 3 McPherson in a public nursing home if she was on a program 4 that was sanctioned by the Church of Scientology? 5 MR. MOXON: Objection. Speculation. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Have you heard of the introspection rundown? 9 A Yes. 10 THE COURT: She already -- 11 A You asked me that. 12 MR. DANDAR: I'm almost done then, that means. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Oh. Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton -- 16 A Yes? 17 Q -- did you ever hear them discuss anything about 18 the phones being bugged at the LMT? 19 A Sure. I mean, there was a lot of discussion about 20 that. And I know at one point Stacy was worried that -- 21 that they -- that when they were doing the money stuff 22 again, she was afraid that they could go to the FBI or 23 something and make allegations about money laundering, get 24 actual bugs on the phone. 25 THE COURT: Do what?
113 1 THE WITNESS: Get legal bugs on the phone 2 somehow. And they were also afraid of bugs in the 3 wall. Shortly before I left, we had a sweep. Some 4 man came in and swept the place for bugs. And, in 5 fact, Jeff had a little bug testing unit he brought 6 down and did my office once for a bug. So, yes -- 7 THE COURT: You are saying -- you are saying 8 bugs meaning some sort of inappropriate listening 9 device? 10 THE WITNESS: Listening device. Right. Right. 11 Yes. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Okay. Now, you said that Stacy Brooks told you, 14 shortly after coming to the LMT, that Scientology purposely 15 killed Lisa McPherson? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did she ever say, though, that -- talk about David 18 Miscavige as the head of the Sea Org? 19 A Did she ever talk about it? 20 Q Yes. Did she? 21 A Certainly. 22 Q Did she ever talk about that she made up a 23 fabricated story that he was the head of the Sea Org? 24 A No. 25 Q In your 20 years in Scientology, is there a head
114 1 of the Sea Org? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And who is it? 4 A It is David Miscavige. 5 Q Could you imagine any public or staff member of 6 the Church of Scientology not knowing that? 7 A Lesser public, maybe, newer guys, but certainly no 8 one in the Sea Org doesn't know that. No one who has been 9 awhile as public wouldn't know that, either, I'm sure. 10 Q Have you seen David Miscavige at Flag? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Under what circumstances? 13 A I saw him briefly during the time I was on staff 14 there. I think it was for an event, which is -- Scientology 15 throughout the year has big -- they call them -- events, 16 which are just -- I don't even know how to describe it -- 17 when the execs get on and they taught about the stats and 18 how well everyone is doing. It is just a big thing. But I 19 saw him there for an event, yes. 20 Q All right. There is -- on the LMT website there 21 is a harassment time line of Bob Minton. 22 A Uh-huh. 23 Q Do you know who put that together? 24 A Stacy and Ingrid put that together. 25 Q Do you know --
115 1 THE COURT: Who is the second person? 2 THE WITNESS: Ingrid, who was -- 3 THE COURT: Ingrid? 4 THE WITNESS: She was like our front desk 5 person. She was very efficient, did a lot of extra 6 work. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Do you know why it was put together? 10 A I do. Originally, I believe it started during the 11 same time when Bob had kind of the breakdown and didn't want 12 to come in. Because she wanted to prove -- 13 THE COURT: She? 14 THE WITNESS: Stacy. Sorry, your Honor. 15 A Stacy wanted to prove the harassment of Bob Minton 16 by Scientology and how it had affected him to sort of 17 validate why he would have a breakdown. 18 And I think she -- she might have started it 19 before then, but I know there was an awful lot of work on 20 that. She wanted John Merrett to take it before a judge, I 21 believe, or to the deposition or whatever it was. 22 And she did just lots of work. And she had Ingrid 23 going through Internet postings from years and pulling 24 everything off and then giving it to Stacy so Stacy could 25 compile it.
116 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Do you know if that time line depicts any events 3 that have anything to do with the policy known as fair game, 4 or formerly known as fair game? 5 A Well, yes, I believe it does. 6 Q And why is that? 7 A I think that was kind of a point she was trying to 8 make in that, you know. I only read it once. 9 MR. MOXON: Objection. Speculation. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Now, did you hear about -- 13 THE COURT: Unless she said so. Did she say 14 why she was doing it? 15 THE WITNESS: She said she was doing it to show 16 the harassment of Scientology. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: That is what was said. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Against who? 21 A Bob Minton. 22 Q Did you hear about money coming from Operation 23 Clambake before or after Stacy's deposition? 24 A Mmm, after Stacy's deposition. That is when I 25 found out about it.
117 1 Q Okay. And there came a time when the LMT closed 2 down? 3 A Right. 4 Q Do you know why the LMT closed? 5 A Well, my understanding, if I can remember, was 6 that we ran out of money. We were out of money. And -- 7 and -- and, you know, I'm trying to think, because really 8 what they were telling me and what was happening was two 9 different things. Because she told me that there had -- 10 that they had already closed the LMT. She said, "As of two 11 days ago the LMT is closed," that they had to close it to 12 protect Bob, basically, to separate, so that we could not be 13 hooked up to the case; so there just wasn't an entity 14 anymore, because Scientology was using it to get to Bob, so 15 if they got rid of it, then they would protect Bob. 16 And also because Bob was just running out of 17 money, you know. He was broke, supposedly, at this point in 18 time. 19 Q Did you ever hear Stacy or Bob Minton or anyone at 20 the LMT talk about closing down the LMT so that somebody 21 could raise the Fifth Amendment? 22 A Could do what? 23 Q Raise the Fifth Amendment in answering questions? 24 A No. 25 Q And what is your understanding of what happens if
118 1 someone fails to make a report up lines that is required? 2 A Well, then that is actually called a no report. 3 And you can -- you can get into ethics trouble for that. 4 And if a flap -- it depends. If a flap results, you can get 5 into big trouble. And if no one ever really notices, it 6 slides by but it is called a no report. 7 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have. 8 THE COURT: All right. You may inquire. 9 MR. MOXON: Thank you, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Let me just clarify this last 11 thing. A no report -- 12 THE WITNESS: Right? 13 THE COURT: -- is when somebody doesn't report 14 up line when they're supposed to? 15 THE WITNESS: Right. 16 THE COURT: What did you say would happen if 17 that occurred? 18 THE WITNESS: If it was a major problem that 19 resulted, like because you didn't report it, you 20 could get into some very big ethics trouble, you 21 know. If nothing really ever came of it, if no one 22 ever really realized there was a situation you 23 didn't report on, it could slide. But say you 24 didn't report on it and it blew up, you would be in 25 a lot of trouble.
119 1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I have one question. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes? 3 MR. DANDAR: Then I'll sit down. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Can a staff member give free services to a 6 non-paying public member? 7 A No. 8 Q And what happens if they do? 9 MR. MOXON: That is two. 10 A It is called off policy. There is policy against 11 doing that. You don't do that. 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: You just don't do it. 14 THE COURT: You may inquire. 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. MOXON: 17 Q Ms. Summers. 18 A Mr. Moxon. 19 Q You never knew Lisa McPherson, did you? 20 A No. 21 Q Never met her? 22 A No. 23 Q Never saw her? 24 A No. 25 Q In fact, you weren't even at Flag -- you were
120 1 obviously not on staff at the time you were there? 2 A No. 3 Q You don't have any personal knowledge whatsoever 4 concerning what happened with Lisa McPherson during her time 5 at the Church, do you? 6 A No. No, sir. 7 Q Now, you had no real technical training, do you? 8 A No. 9 Q Technical training being the training in what we 10 kind of colloquially referred to as the tech or auditing 11 procedure? 12 A Right. No, I don't. 13 Q And that is really what Scientology is, that is 14 what its purpose is, to deliver auditing, correct? 15 A Part of its purpose, yes. 16 Q Yes. I mean, that -- 17 A Right. 18 Q -- that is the ultimate manner in which 19 Scientology is practiced is through auditing. Correct? 20 A Right. 21 Q So in all these 20 years you have not really been 22 trained in that? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. And you have never been trained on any 25 executive course either, have you?
121 1 A Yes. 2 Q What? 3 A I did exec statuses. I trained up to Exec Status 4 2. 5 Q Staff status? 6 A No, exec status. Staff status was something 7 different. 8 Q During the short time you were on the Sea Org, as 9 I understand it, you came in around May of '86 -- 10 A Uh-huh. 11 Q -- and then in approximately March you wanted to 12 leave, and you didn't have any responsibility after that 13 point, and stuck around a few more months? 14 A Was it March? If you say so. You have my 15 records, so I would agree with that. I thought it was a 16 little later in the year. I thought August of the following 17 year. 18 Q Well, you left in July? 19 A Okay. 20 Q Is that right? 21 A There you go. Right. Okay. 22 Q And remember at your deposition I went over with 23 you a list of products that you had written, what you called 24 product lists on April 20, 1987, of the products you were 25 proud of that you produced while in the Sea Org?
122 1 A Yes. You did. 2 Q Do you remember that? 3 A I do remember that. Yeah. 4 Q And the kinds of things you said you did was you 5 got some stationery with a logo on it? 6 A That was one program I did. Right. 7 Q And you worked on renovations? 8 A Wait a minute. I didn't just get stationery. 9 That logo -- you guys are still using that logo today. It 10 was a big deal because Braun (phonetic) developed the logo, 11 and no one was using it, so it was actually a pretty 12 good-sized program to get that universal use as a symbol for 13 Flag. 14 Q You spent most of your time working on these 15 programs on renovations projects, right? 16 A I spent a lot of time doing that with 17 Mr. Englehart, yes, I did. 18 Q You had some function with putting together a 19 computerization -- 20 A Right. 21 Q -- for payroll? 22 A Yes. Right. Right. 23 Q Those were your primary products? 24 A Yes. They were. 25 THE COURT: What we have to do, I can see you
123 1 are kind of ready to answer before he finishes his 2 question. Wait until he is completely done. 3 Otherwise, what happens when I read this -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes? 5 THE COURT: -- I'll get this dot dot dot, part 6 of his question, part of your answer, the last -- 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 THE COURT: -- the last of his question. And 9 it is very difficult to read. So let him ask his 10 full question. Then you answer. Okay? 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 BY MR. MOXON: 13 Q So you weren't working on technical lines at all, 14 per se, were you? 15 A No. 16 Q That being the auditing procedure? 17 A Right. 18 Q Now -- 19 THE COURT: When you say that, Counselor, do 20 you mean that she wasn't being trained to be an 21 auditor? I gather, in 20 years, she got auditing. 22 MR. MOXON: No, I mean when she was working on 23 staff, she wasn't working on any of the areas really 24 that delivered the auditing. 25 THE COURT: To someone else?
124 1 MR. MOXON: Yes, that is right. 2 THE COURT: You received auditing? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 BY MR. MOXON: 5 Q Now, obviously when you left in July 1987 you 6 would have no personal knowledge after that point of any of 7 the internal lines and matters in the Church, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 THE COURT: You left, I'm sorry, did you say in 10 '87? Or '97? 11 MR. MOXON: 1987 when she left Church staff. 12 MR. DANDAR: Staff. 13 THE COURT: Staff. Okay. 14 BY MR. MOXON: 15 Q Now, you testified just a few minutes ago that 16 Stacy Brooks told you there was no agreement for getting the 17 proceeds of the case? 18 A Right. 19 Q When did you have that discussion with her? 20 A Mmm, it's kind of hard to remember exactly when. 21 Mmm -- 22 Q But, in any event, you remember very specifically 23 a discussion you had with Stacy? 24 A Yes, because I believe you brought it up in a 25 deposition, and that Bob Minton had -- it must have been
125 1 around one of my depositions because you brought it up Bob 2 Minton posted something on the Internet saying there was an 3 agreement, which I knew nothing about, and I specifically 4 asked her about that. 5 Q All right. And you also testified you talked to 6 Bob or you had a discussion with Bob? 7 A Certainly. 8 Q And he told you there was no agreement -- 9 A Right. 10 Q -- also? 11 A Right. 12 Q That is no agreement with the estate to receive 13 the proceeds of the case? 14 A Right. 15 Q Now, at your deposition you just mentioned, this 16 is your last deposition, I believe, September 5, 2001, 17 perhaps -- 18 A I -- there was one in October. 19 Q You had another one? 20 A Right. 21 Q September 5, 2001 was right at the very end of 22 your tenure at LMT, right? 23 A Yes, it was. Right. 24 Q And let me read you the question and answer and 25 ask if this is right. I asked you a question, "Have there
126 1 been any discussions in the LMT as to what they are going to 2 do with the money that they get from this case? 3 "Answer: No." 4 A Right. 5 Q I asked you, this is on Page 69, "Notwithstanding 6 all of that time~--" that being all of the time you were at 7 LMT, "Notwithstanding all of that time, you have never had 8 any discussions with any of the people at LMT as to this 9 alleged agreement?" 10 Your answer was, "No. No." 11 Do you remember that? 12 A No. Well, the first part you said about money, 13 that we were allegedly to receive. So that is not even the 14 same thing. 15 But the second part, I said we had no discussion 16 as to the agreement? 17 Q Let me show you -- 18 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I only have one copy, 19 may I approach? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 MR. DANDAR: I would just like to have the date 22 of the deposition. 23 MR. MOXON: It is September 5, 2001. 24 THE WITNESS: Is this all there is? Is there 25 anything preceding this or not?
127 1 BY MR. MOXON: 2 Q Well, this is on Page 69. 3 A Well, I would have to read previous to this. 4 Q Sure. Let me switch with you. I'll give you this 5 small one, if I may, and I'll go back to my podium. This is 6 the whole version of it. 7 A Well, I say that -- what is this? Well, it 8 doesn't matter. 9 Okay, so you are asking me if I know about the 10 agreement between Mr. Minton and Dell Liebreich, which I 11 didn't know about the agreement, if there was some agreement 12 between them. So that is correct. 13 Q Then I asked if you had -- 14 A "Are you aware? 15 "No. 16 "Have there been any discussions at all as to what 17 they are going to do with the money? 18 "No." 19 Because there was no -- I mean, that wasn't going 20 to happen. You see what I'm saying. 21 All right, well, it does say that as to this 22 alleged agreement. 23 When I read it, you're talking about money, 24 proceeds, coming in as a result of the agreement. And there 25 were no discussions about that, you know. So --
128 1 Q Well, let me go back. At the bottom of Page 68, 2 my question is, "You are aware that there has been a big 3 dispute over the past year or so in discovery, disputes with 4 respect to this agreement between Mr. Minton and the LMT and 5 the plaintiff and Mr. Dandar with respect to the proceeds of 6 this case? 7 "Answer: I'm aware of that. 8 "Question: Okay. Has that been a subject of 9 discussion at the LMT? 10 "Answer: No. Not outside of the fact that it 11 takes a lot of our time away from what we're doing." 12 A Right. 13 Q Then I asked you, on Page 69, "And notwithstanding 14 all that time, you have never had any discussions with any 15 of the people at LMT as to this alleged agreement? 16 "Answer: No. No." 17 "Question: It's not occurred to you to wonder 18 about that? 19 "Answer: It's -- no. Well, wonder about it? 20 I -- no. I mean --" 21 A Right. 22 Q "Question: Okay. I'm just asking. 23 "Answer: I don't believe it exists in the way 24 that you characterize it. 25 "Question: But you never asked Mr. Minton about
129 1 it, have you? 2 "Answer: No, I don't believe I ever asked him." 3 A All right. Okay. 4 Q Now, when you were on staff at Flag, you said you 5 lived at -- you called it the QI? 6 A Right. 7 Q Quality Inn? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And that is a motel property on U.S. 19? 10 A Right. 11 Q You didn't live at the Hacienda, did you? 12 A No. Right. 13 Q When Mr. Dandar was questioning you, you said that 14 you were not aware of any destruction of records at LMT at 15 all. Correct? 16 A Well, no, not destruction of records. 17 Q So you are aware of destruction -- 18 THE COURT: I think she said they shred things 19 regularly. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: If that is what you are referring 22 to. 23 A But we never really -- 24 THE COURT: Wait. Wait. 25 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
130 1 THE COURT: I think she said she never was 2 aware of destruction of records that were pursuant 3 to court order, but she said they destroyed records 4 every day. 5 BY MR. MOXON: 6 Q In fact you deleted -- 7 THE COURT: Shredded, whatever you want to call 8 it. Deleted, shredded. 9 BY MR. MOXON: 10 Q Okay. Well, if I recall at your deposition you 11 told me that the standard practice was to take hard copy 12 papers and to scan them into the computers. Right? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Then you would shred them? 15 A Right. 16 Q Shred the hard copies? 17 A Right. 18 Q And it was also your practice, and others at LMT, 19 if you know, to delete their E-Mails, right? 20 A Yes. Yes. Sorry. 21 Q Now, these -- were you at LMT when the hard drives 22 were removed from the computers? 23 A No. I had already left. 24 Q But you knew about them? 25 A Mmm, yup, I heard about that afterwards.
131 1 Q Where did you hear about that? 2 A I think Patricia told me. Or -- 3 Q Greenway? 4 A Or -- Patricia Greenway. Someone told me that 5 they had gone in, and there was some difficulty with hard 6 drives, or they had tried to remove hard drives, but I -- 7 Ken might have asked me about it. I honestly don't 8 remember. But I know I did hear -- there was something 9 about hard drives being removed from the computers. 10 Q Did you talk to Patricia Greenway about this 11 deposition? 12 A Before this deposition? No. 13 Q Did you meet with Patricia Greenway before this 14 deposition? 15 A No. 16 MR. DANDAR: Are you talking about at hearing 17 or deposition? 18 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry. This hearing. 19 A This hearing? No, I didn't. 20 MR. MOXON: Thank you, Mr. Dandar. 21 A No. 22 BY MR. MOXON: 23 Q Part of your job at LMT was to have communications 24 and make complaints to government agencies, wasn't it, 25 respecting Scientology?
132 1 A Well, no. It was not to make complaints myself. 2 Q To help other people to make complaints? 3 A Well, if that became necessary, yes. You know, I 4 basically gave them addresses and told them what to do -- of 5 agencies to contact. 6 Q You -- I'm sorry? 7 A To contact. 8 Q You encouraged people to write to government 9 agencies and complain about the Church of Scientology, 10 didn't you? 11 A Only if they had tried -- first, they all have to 12 go to the Church, and if they're trying to get something -- 13 money back or something, yes, I encouraged them to seek 14 help. 15 Q Well, you did it for other reasons, too, right? 16 A No. What do you mean, for other reasons? 17 Q I mean, you made complaints to government agencies 18 for reasons other than people that allegedly wanted to 19 exercise the Church policy to provide refunds of donations, 20 right? 21 A Mmm, I -- I really don't think so. 22 Q Don't you remember you -- 23 A I'm sorry. Tell me. I -- I worked mostly with 24 refunds. I mean, there were other instances -- there was 25 one lady whose daughter had gone in, and she couldn't locate
133 1 her. And I told her to write -- and, you know, write -- 2 file a missing person's complaint, how to find out about 3 that. So I guess the answer is yes. Yes, it would be other 4 than that, too. 5 Q And you, in fact, sent a complaint to the 6 sheriff's department, didn't you? 7 A Oh, right. I did. 8 Q And -- 9 A No, actually, I did not send a complaint to the 10 sheriff's department. You are talking about the child abuse 11 complaint? Is that what you're discussing? 12 Q One thrown out by the -- by the local government. 13 A Well, I made a complaint on an 800 number, abuse 14 hotline. And then I wrote a complaint also to the FDLE, not 15 the sheriff's department. 16 Q FDLE? 17 A Right. Right. To Lee Strope. 18 Q Lee Strope, Mr. Dandar's witness? 19 A Well, I don't know if he's Mr. Dandar's witness or 20 not. I have no idea. 21 Q Has Lee Strope, by the way, ever been to LMT? 22 A I don't think I have ever seen him at the LMT, no. 23 Q But part of your job then was to facilitate people 24 to demand refunds of donations they had made to the Church, 25 right? You encouraged that?
134 1 A If they wanted their money back, yes. 2 Q When was your conversation with Mr. Dandar about 3 whether or not you should or shouldn't work at the LMT? 4 A Well, I didn't actually have a conversation with 5 him on whether I should work at the LMT. 6 Q Maybe I misheard you. 7 A Yes. 8 Q I understood your testimony to be you spoke to 9 Mr. Dandar and he said, "I don't know if you should work 10 there," or something like that. 11 A No. Before -- long before I ever thought of 12 working there, he asked me -- during my first taped 13 interview with him in '99, he asked me at that time, "What 14 do you know about the LMT? Have you ever talked to them?" 15 I said, "No." 16 At that time he said, "Oh, good." 17 And I expressed I had no interest in going there. 18 At that time he said, "Good. Stay away from 19 them." 20 Then I did get in touch with them, but it was 21 much, much later. And then when I took the job there, he 22 didn't know I was working there. I told him afterwards. 23 Q Did you know that Mr. Dandar had communicated with 24 Stacy Brooks about your working at LMT? 25 A No.
135 1 Q Now, your letter that you sent to LMT looked like 2 you were kind of requesting a job, asked if you could be of 3 service to them? 4 A Mmm, probably. At the end -- yes, about my 5 writing. I wasn't requesting a job. But I asked if they 6 could use my help, right. 7 Q But you were looking for work? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q You didn't have a job, did you? 10 A No. No. So -- I think I just quit my job, yes. 11 Q So they gave you a job paying $60,000 a year, 12 didn't they? 13 A No. I started at $2,000 a month, not $60,000 a 14 year. 15 Q What were you being paid at the time you left? 16 A I was being paid $4,500 -- well, I had just gotten 17 a raise. I got one paycheck of $4,500 a month. Before 18 that, I was being paid $4,000 a month. 19 Q $4,000 a month? 20 A Correct. 21 Q When LMT was nearing its end, you talked about 22 that you had a conversation with Stacy where she said, 23 "We're basically out of business"? 24 A Yes. 25 Q This was in September of 2001?
136 1 A Yes. 2 Q Right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And Stacy told you that the financial discovery 5 and discovery was getting too close and too problematic? 6 A Well, it was a meeting. But, yes, that is what 7 she said. It wasn't just me. We had a meeting and she 8 described that. Yes. 9 Q Who else was there? 10 A Everyone was there. All of the staff of LMT were 11 there. 12 Q And she was real upset about the information that 13 was coming out -- 14 A Sure. 15 Q -- in the discovery? 16 A Certainly. 17 Q And she -- she and Bob were also very concerned 18 with having to make disclosures in discovery. Correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, you made a posting to the Internet in October 21 of 2001 -- 22 A Uh-huh. 23 Q -- about leaving. Do you remember that? 24 A About leaving? 25 Q About leaving the LMT?
137 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you -- you relayed, in that, to the world, I 3 guess, over the Internet, that Stacy wanted to go to Texas 4 and ask Dell to drop the case? 5 A Right. 6 Q The LMT case. And you told Mr. Dandar about it. 7 I'm not going to go into all of the details of that. 8 But at the time -- at the time that this was 9 happening was right after all these discovery disputes, 10 right? 11 A Uh-huh. Yes. Sorry. 12 Q And was there any discussion that there was a 13 perception that based on the statements or orders from Judge 14 Schaeffer, that Bob could potentially go to jail? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And also that Stacy could potentially go to jail? 17 A I believe so. 18 Q And you remember her -- the deposition, Stacy's 19 deposition, it was, if I'm correct, August 15, 2001? 20 A It was in August. 21 Q Did she tell you that Judge Beach at that time had 22 threatened her that she could go to jail if they don't 23 comply with these discovery orders? 24 A I believe so. I know she was quite upset. And 25 there was talk about, you know, "Bob is going to go to jail,
138 1 I'm going to go to jail." So, yes, I think so. 2 Q So it was these orders and pronouncements from the 3 court, Judge Schaeffer and Judge Beach, saying, "You guys 4 are in trouble, you are going to go to jail if you don't 5 comply with our orders"? 6 A That is possible. Sometimes I didn't actually 7 know what legal thing was occurring, but I just knew, you 8 know, what she was upset about. You know, I had a difficult 9 time following all that legal. There was a lot happening. 10 Q All right. And then right after that, she said 11 she wanted Dell to drop the case? 12 A Mmm, it was around that same time period. You 13 know, I can't say whether it was right after that. And I 14 know there were two times; one was discussed in August, then 15 it was discussed again later of Dell dropping the case. 16 But, yes, it was all around that time. 17 Q Obviously they weren't trying to drop the case 18 because they were in communication with the Church, were 19 they? 20 A I don't believe so. 21 Q Now, you don't really know Bob very well, do you? 22 A Not really. 23 Q He kept his business pretty close? 24 A Yes, he did. 25 Q He obviously didn't talk to you about the
139 1 agreements he may or may not have had with Mr. Dandar, did 2 he? 3 A Not at any length, no. I mean -- 4 Q He didn't even talk to you about the money he had 5 given Mr. Dandar, did he? 6 A No. No. 7 MR. DANDAR: I hate to interrupt. Her last 8 answer before that, she started to say "I mean" and 9 then he interrupted. 10 THE COURT: Were you finished with your last 11 answer? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm done. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. MOXON: I'll mark as our next exhibit, 15 Number 187, a copy of the E-Mail that is the one 16 we've been discussing dated October 9, 2001. 17 THE COURT: I think that is already in 18 evidence, isn't it? 19 MR. MOXON: You know, I'm not sure. There may 20 have been some discussions about it. I misspoke. 21 It's not an E-Mail. It's a posting to the Internet 22 by Ms. Summers. 23 BY MR. MOXON: 24 Q Is that correct, Ms. Summers? 25 A Yes, it is.
140 1 THE COURT: I think this is already in 2 evidence. If it is, we'll take off the duplicate -- 3 MR. FUGATE: What is the date? 4 MR. MOXON: October 9, 2001. 5 MR. FUGATE: I'll look. 6 THE COURT: Madam clerk, if you'll look, too. 7 I know this was discussed by, I believe, Stacy 8 Brooks. And there -- there was a long E-Mail -- oh, 9 no, I'm sorry, that is a letter. 10 MR. FUGATE: That is a letter. 11 THE COURT: A letter as to why she's leaving 12 that is in evidence. So I don't think this is in 13 evidence. It is all right. 14 What is the number again? 15 MR. MOXON: That was definitely around the same 16 time. 17 THE CLERK: 187. 18 THE COURT: Go ahead. 19 BY MR. MOXON: 20 Q At the bottom of the first page, that is starting 21 at the first -- the last paragraph on the page -- 22 A Uh-huh? 23 Q -- you are talking about Stacy wanting to go to 24 contact Dell to convince her to drop the case. Correct? 25 A Yes.
141 1 Q Then on the last line on Page 1, you say, "She did 2 try to. She called Dell and said she wanted to visit her, 3 not telling Dell the reason. Dell, however, called Ken and 4 told him Stacy wanted to come visit. And Ken said, 'Tell 5 her no.'" 6 A Yes. 7 Q Where did you get that information? 8 A Mmm, let's see. You know, I honestly can't 9 remember where I got that, who told me that. 10 Q Was it Ms. Greenway? 11 A I doubt it -- no, I wasn't talking to Patricia at 12 this time. I didn't even call Patricia until long after I 13 left the trust. 14 Q Was it from Mr. Dandar? 15 A Mmm, I don't know because I didn't talk to Ken at 16 that time when I was leaving, either. Mmm, "Dell called Ken 17 and told him Stacy wanted to come visit and --" 18 Q How did you get this -- 19 A I'm trying to think. 20 Q -- this attorney-client communication? I'm just 21 wondering how you came to be aware of that. 22 A I -- I -- it's hard for me to remember. That was 23 just a terrible, terrible time for me, and -- 24 THE COURT: If you don't know, just say you 25 don't know.
142 1 A I'm just going to have to say I don't know at this 2 time. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MR. MOXON: 5 Q Now, Brian Haney was the person you said that 6 referred you to LMT? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And suggested that you go to work for them? 9 A No. He suggested I contact them. 10 Q Okay. He was a board member of LMT, wasn't he? 11 A Oh, yes, I guess he was at the time. 12 Q Did you know he was a consultant for Mr. Dandar? 13 A I think he told me that, he had been working with 14 Ken, yes. 15 Q I may have misheard you but I heard you say you 16 saw Mr. Haney in Mr. Dandar's office? 17 A No, I didn't see him there. He went to Ken's 18 office shortly after my deposition. 19 And Ken told Brian, "Hey, we just deposed a woman 20 from Ohio." 21 And Brian said, "Who is it?" 22 He said it was Teresa Summers. But I didn't see 23 Brian there. 24 Q Now, there has been a couple references to 25 technical bulletins of Scientology.
143 1 A Yes. 2 Q Those are the bulletins which are in what is 3 colloquially called the red volumes -- 4 A Yes. 5 Q -- is that right? 6 A Yes. 7 Q I'll just pull up an example of one. 8 A Right. 9 Q And they're -- there are about ten of these? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. These volumes contain the technical 12 materials of Scientology practice. Correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Did you know -- you indicated you never heard 15 about the introspection rundown, right? 16 A Right. 17 Q Did you know that there are a number of issues in 18 here about the introspection rundown? 19 A I'm sure there are. But I wasn't aware of them at 20 the time. 21 Q Never -- 22 A Well, I didn't -- I didn't train as an auditor, 23 you know. 24 Q Well, do you -- do you have a copy of What Is 25 Scientology? Did you ever have a copy of that?
144 1 A No. 2 Q You never read it? 3 A No. It came out long after I had been in 4 Scientology. 5 Q 1991? 6 A Yeah. I got in in, what, '80, so that was 11 7 years. I felt I knew what is Scientology. But -- so, no, I 8 never had that book. 9 Q So in the eight years after it came out, you never 10 looked at it, either? 11 A Well, I'm sure I looked at it. But honestly, no, 12 not very much. 13 Q Did you know that the introspection rundown is 14 described in that broad book that is published to the world 15 and sold in book stores? 16 A No, I didn't know that. 17 Q Introspection rundown is not a secret, is it? 18 A I don't know if it's a secret. 19 Q Well, I mean, if it's published in the technical 20 bulletins -- 21 A Well, no. 22 Q -- it's not a secret, is it? 23 THE COURT: This book, Scientology, is this a 24 book published I could go down to the book store and 25 get it?
145 1 MR. MOXON: No. I have seen it in airport book 2 stores. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think you have a copy, your 5 Honor. 6 THE COURT: I do. You-all gave it to me. So I 7 didn't know if this was -- 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 9 THE COURT: Don't misunderstand, somebody gave 10 it to me because it was things that had been marked 11 for things they had said. This is not something 12 they had given me that were gifts. 13 MR. LIEBERMAN: I didn't mean to suggest that. 14 THE COURT: No. But I always want to note, 15 when a newspaper reporter is in the room and the 16 record is here, that I make those things clear. 17 Actually, I have three books. One is What Is 18 Scientology. One is a great big book, and it is 19 real thick. 20 MR. DANDAR: I got those, too. 21 MR. MOXON: Does it look like this? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. MOXON: The Background, Ministry, 24 Ceremonies & Sermons of -- 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, my. The Background,
146 1 Ministry, Ceremonies and -- 2 THE COURT: I don't think that is it. I think 3 it is even bigger and prettier than that. I'll show 4 you. Again, it was marked with things. I got these 5 when I was still doing the motion to dismiss in a 6 criminal case. 7 MR. MOXON: Okay. 8 THE COURT: But I have that one, What Is 9 Scientology. Then I have another one. 10 And I didn't know, quite frankly, whether those 11 were books that were only sold within the Church or 12 whether those were sold generally. I know Dianetics 13 was sold out in book stores, but I didn't know if 14 these were. But you are saying they are. 15 MR. MOXON: Yes. In fact, they are for both 16 for broad public consumption to give them 17 information about Scientology. It's been clear, in 18 fact, in litigation over the years that people have 19 misunderstandings about it, and it's the purpose of 20 giving the world true information about the practice 21 and scope of it. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. MOXON: But, yes, they are in libraries, 24 they are in book stores. They are promoted. 25 THE COURT: Go ahead. Continue on.
147 1 BY MR. MOXON: 2 Q Now, Mr. Dandar -- 3 THE COURT: You are telling me if I go back and 4 get my book and look in the index under 5 introspection rundown, there is a section in there, 6 I'm sure -- there is a section in there on 7 introspection rundown? 8 MR. MOXON: Yes, there is. It is just a 9 paragraph, but it's in there. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. MOXON: 12 Q Now, Mr. Dandar asked you a question about this 13 policy letter called -- or -- excuse me, about a term called 14 "acceptable truth"? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q Do you remember where that comes from? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you ever study the administrative series? 19 A Mmm -- 20 Q The administrative policies? 21 A Oh, yes. Of course. Any of the administrative 22 policies? 23 Q Did you ever read the PR series? 24 A Oh, the PR series? Okay. You know, I -- I'm sure 25 I read it. I'm sure I have read some of them. I never did
148 1 study it as a course. But, you know, through the years when 2 you are working on staff and so forth, you -- you will go to 3 policy and look through different books for different 4 things. So, you know, I'm sure that I have seen that. 5 MR. MOXON: Well, your Honor, I hate to 6 introduce any policies, but since we're into this, I 7 think I must -- 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MOXON: -- to defend ourselves. We'll mark 10 as -- 11 THE CLERK: Number 188. 12 MR. MOXON: -- Number 188 -- thank you -- 13 MR. DANDAR: Do you have one for me? 14 MR. MOXON: I gave you the wrong one. 15 MR. DANDAR: Thanks. 16 BY MR. MOXON: 17 Q We marked a PR Series 2, "The Missing Ingredient." 18 Have you ever read this? 19 A I don't recall if I read it or not. 20 Q Okay. Well, if you look at the top of Page 47, 21 which is the third page in this exhibit, there is the term 22 "acceptable truth"? 23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q It is mentioned this is where this term is coined. 25 A Okay.
149 1 Q I just want to walk through this a little bit 2 because I think we need to clarify it. 3 THE COURT: Show me where -- okay, Page -- 4 MR. MOXON: The third page -- 5 THE COURT: -- 47. I guess that is what it is, 6 at the bottom? 7 MR. MOXON: Yes, it says "47" at the bottom. 8 Anyway, it is the third page of the exhibit. 9 THE COURT: I have got it. Go ahead. 10 BY MR. MOXON: 11 Q The first two paragraphs say, "The primary 12 corrective discovery about PR has to do with the ARC 13 triangle of Scientology." 14 THE COURT: Now, see, I must not be where you 15 are. 16 MR. MOXON: If you go to the first page now, 17 your Honor -- 18 THE COURT: The first page? I thought we were 19 on the third page. 20 MR. MOXON: I'm back to the first page starting 21 at the beginning. 22 THE COURT: I'm with you. 23 MR. MOXON: All right? 24 THE COURT: Go ahead. 25
150 1 BY MR. MOXON: 2 Q This says, "The triangle is affinity, reality 3 communication. If one corner, say, A, is raised, the other 4 two will rise. If one corner is lowered, then the other two 5 are, as well." 6 Now, this concept of the ARC triangle is a very 7 basic concept in Scientology? 8 A Yes, very basic. 9 Q Most basic, and the idea is that affinity is a 10 degree of liking someone. Right? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And reality would be defined as essentially 13 agreement between people, agreement? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And communication is just communication? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And these factors in Scientology are dependent 18 upon one another? 19 MR. MOXON: In fact, your Honor, I can 20 reference What Is Scientology, Pages 159 to 160, as 21 to this concept of the ARC triangle. 22 And I go into it in a little detail here 23 because there are abbreviations throughout this 24 document. 25
151 1 BY MR. MOXON: 2 Q But it says, in the sixth paragraph of this issue, 3 "PR is supposed to be a communication technique. It 4 communicates ideas. Suppose one were trying to communicate 5 an out-the-bottom reality. In such a case, the 6 communication would possibly at first reach but then it 7 would recoil due to its reality. This, of course, is an 8 advance in the mental technology of Scientology which was 9 not available to early pioneers of PR." 10 THE COURT: Where is this going? 11 MR. MOXON: To the next paragraph. 12 THE COURT: Okay. I'm with you. 13 MR. MOXON: Okay. 14 BY MR. MOXON: 15 Q "So the early pioneer years of PR they talk and 16 still talk mainly lies." 17 If you turn to the next page, Exhibit -- Page 2 of 18 the exhibit, the second paragraph, it says, "You pick up a 19 newspaper or listen to the street and you see PR, PR, PR, 20 all lies." Right? 21 A Uh-huh. 22 Q "If you go down several more paragraphs, it says, 23 "PR dedicated to a false reality of lies then becomes low 24 affinity, low communication and recoils on the user. So the 25 first lesson that we can learn that enables us to use PR
152 1 safely is to keep high affinity and high reality." Right? 2 "Thus the --" 3 A I don't see that -- 4 THE COURT: Affinity? I see "Keep a high R," 5 which I guess you are saying is reality. But where 6 is -- 7 MR. MOXON: High A and high R. It says, "Use 8 PR safely to keep a high A and high R." 9 THE COURT: It says "to keep a high R." Mine 10 does. 11 MR. DANDAR: Right. It doesn't say affinity. 12 MR. MOXON: That is correct. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. MOXON: Thank you for correcting that. You 15 can read it better than I do, Judge. 16 BY MR. MOXON: 17 Q "Thus the law never use lies in PR." Right? 18 A Okay. 19 Q Have you ever read this before? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q All right. Then if you go to the next page, this 22 term "acceptable truth" appears. 23 THE COURT: Could you tell me again where we 24 know what PR means? 25 MR. MOXON: PR is public relations.
153 1 THE COURT: Okay. I know that. Okay. 2 MR. MOXON: I don't want to scare you from all 3 these terms in here, your Honor. 4 BY MR. MOXON: 5 Q So at the top of the third page of this exhibit it 6 says, "Handling truth is a touchy business, also. You don't 7 have to tell everything you know. That would jam the comm 8 line, too. Tell an acceptable truth. Agreement with one's 9 message is what PR is seeking to achieve. Thus, the message 10 must compare to the personal experience of the audience." 11 And it explains a little further, "If there is no 12 chance of obtaining a desirable result and the truth would 13 injure, then talk about something else." 14 Is that your understanding of acceptable truth? 15 A Yes. 16 Q At the very bottom of the third page, it says, 17 "The use of R, the use of reality, not only involves truth, 18 it involves acceptable truth." 19 So an acceptable truth throughout here all talks 20 about truth. Correct? 21 A Uh-huh. 22 Q Truth is an acceptable thing to say to a person? 23 A And -- and at a level that is real to them, yes. 24 Q Like you wouldn't say to me, "I hate you, you are 25 a stupid Scientologist," you might say, "It is a really nice
154 1 day today," or something like that? 2 A That is not a very nice thing to say. I would 3 never say that to you under any circumstances. 4 Q Okay. Certainly, if you wanted to be in 5 communication and reality, you wouldn't say that to me, 6 would you? 7 A No, I would never. 8 Q All right. You have never seen this term anywhere 9 else in Scientology except in this policy, have you? 10 A Well, I can't say that. It's possible that I 11 have. 12 Q You have never seen it anywhere, have you? 13 A Well, I can't say that I haven't. 14 THE COURT: You can't say you have or haven't. 15 THE WITNESS: I can't -- 16 THE COURT: The answer is you don't know? 17 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 18 THE COURT: There you go. 19 BY MR. MOXON: 20 Q Okay. I want to talk about this person you 21 mentioned who was at the Church back in 1986 -- 22 A Oh, yes. 23 Q -- who you said died. 24 A Yes. 25 THE COURT: I must admit I did not understand
155 1 that. I was listening and I was trying to 2 understand it, but I didn't. So maybe as you ask 3 her, it will become clearer to me what she said on 4 direct. 5 MR. MOXON: Okay. 6 BY MR. MOXON: 7 Q Well, this person that you were talking about who 8 was at the Ft. Harrison in 1985 -- 9 A Not '85. 10 Q '86? 11 A Or '87. 12 Q You arrived in '86? 13 A Right. 14 Q I got confused in your deposition because you were 15 talking about '85. 16 THE COURT: You know what, I hate to do this to 17 you, Mr. Moxon, but did we ever put a number on this 18 missing ingredient? 19 MR. MOXON: Yes. It is Number 188. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. MOXON: I move it be admitted into 22 evidence. 23 THE COURT: It will be received. Okay. 24 Continue on. 25
156 1 BY MR. MOXON: 2 Q So you never saw this person, did you? 3 A No. 4 Q And you are not even quite sure what his name was, 5 are you? 6 A No. Right. 7 Q And you don't know what illness he had, do you? 8 A No. 9 Q So all of the information you had was all 10 secondhand or thirdhand, told to you by somebody else. 11 Correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And you actually had no knowledge whatsoever of 14 what he was being audited upon, if anything. Correct? 15 A Well, just what I was told by my senior. 16 Q Okay. No personal knowledge? 17 A No personal knowledge. 18 Q You don't know the name of any alleged auditing 19 process that was being run with this person, do you? 20 A No. 21 Q All right. And you don't even know if he died in 22 a hospital or not, do you? 23 A No. 24 Q Are you trying to infer with Mr. Dandar's 25 testimony that he -- that this man died there?
157 1 A Well, it was my understanding that he died there. 2 Q Okay. But you don't know? 3 A I don't. 4 Q And you asserted that your boss told you that she 5 had some communication with Alain Kartuzinski -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q -- about this person? 8 A Yes. 9 Q You never talked to Alain Kartuzinski about this? 10 A Not about that, no. 11 Q Does the name Ted Cormier or Cormier ring a bell? 12 A Oh, that was someone different. But I remembered 13 Ted Cormier, yes. He was also sick. 14 Q You claim there was somebody completely 15 different -- 16 A Ted Cormier was not the man. 17 Q How do you know? 18 A Because he was ill, wasn't he, Ted Cormier? 19 Q Uh-huh. 20 A He was also ill. He had cancer maybe. I remember 21 him. But he left the base. 22 This guy was not the same man. This man's name -- 23 he was a messenger and his name was Christian-something, 24 Mr. Christianson or something. 25 Q And he was a CMO messenger?
158 1 A Yes. Right. And married to a CMO messenger. 2 Q Well, married? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you know Kathy Cormier who worked in -- 5 A I don't know. 6 Q -- CMO? 7 A No. 8 Q But you are positive this was a different person? 9 A I believe it was a different person. 10 Q Well, I'm sorry to quibble with you, but are you 11 positive it was a different person? 12 A Mmm, I can't be positive, no. 13 Q Because you don't really know who they were 14 talking about. Do you? 15 A No. I just know his name. And I can't even 16 really remember his name. But you are right, I never 17 actually saw him myself. 18 Q He may never have existed as far as you know, that 19 is, to your personal knowledge? 20 A That would seem unlikely, you know. 21 Q So you don't know if this person was actually an 22 inpatient in the hospital at the time he died? 23 A I don't know that. 24 Q Or even in a hospice? 25 A I don't know that.
159 1 Q Now, you did, however, tell Mr. Dandar that the 2 decision regarding this person was coordinated up lines? 3 A Right. 4 Q You have absolutely no personal knowledge about 5 that, do you? 6 A Yes, I do. 7 Q You have personal knowledge that some decision was 8 coordinated up lines with respect to the auditing of this 9 person? 10 A Well, yes. Because the phone calls -- Mr. -- I 11 think it was Janet DeWolf, D-E-W-O-L-F, but that may be 12 incorrect, she would call up lines on this cycle from 13 Laurie's office. We would have to leave. And sometimes 14 Laurie would go down to her office and come and tell us. So 15 I do know they were coordinating it. 16 THE COURT: They were what? 17 THE WITNESS: Coordinating it. 18 BY MR. MOXON: 19 Q Every time these alleged phone calls were made, 20 you were in the office? 21 A I was what? 22 Q Every time these alleged phone calls were made, 23 you weren't there? 24 A No, I wasn't. 25 Q So you have no idea who anybody was talking to at
160 1 all, right? 2 A Right. 3 THE COURT: So when the phone calls came, you 4 were asked to step out, is that what you said? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: By whom? 7 THE WITNESS: By my senior, Mr. Laurie 8 Englehart. Often we were in her office a lot. 9 There was only myself and she and another woman, and 10 we worked very closely together. So when they were 11 talking care of this, she said she would have to run 12 down to Mr. DeWolf's office, we have to take care of 13 this, then she would run back and say, "This is what 14 we did." 15 So there was a lot of running back and forth, 16 because we're all in this one building on this long 17 floor and we shared the floor. 18 BY MR. MOXON: 19 Q Now, you told Mr. Dandar you were the commanding 20 officer of Flag. Actually, this was a -- temporary for a 21 few weeks? 22 A Right. 23 Q Somebody went away? 24 A Yes. 25 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
161 1 ___________________________________ 2 THE COURT: The third book I have is called 3 Introduction to Ethics. 4 MR. MOXON: What was the second one? 5 THE COURT: What Is Scientology. 6 The third one, what was the name of that big 7 book again? 8 MR. MOXON: Called The Background, Ministry, 9 Ceremonies & Sermons of the Scientology Religion. 10 THE COURT: And I did look in What Is 11 Scientology. And in the index there is 12 introspection rundown. And there is about a seven- 13 or eight-line, very brief explanation. 14 BY MR. MOXON: 15 Q Ms. Summers, did you talk to anyone over the 16 break? 17 A Patricia, briefly. 18 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you you shouldn't talk to 19 anyone -- 20 THE COURT: Well, she can talk to people. She 21 simply can't talk about her testimony. 22 A Yes. 23 BY MR. MOXON: 24 Q Did you talk about your testimony? 25 A Of course not.
162 1 Q Okay. 2 THE COURT: She can talk to anybody she wants 3 to. She simply can't discuss her testimony. 4 BY MR. MOXON: 5 Q Are you and Ms. Greenway friends? 6 A Yes. 7 THE COURT: Madam court reporter, go back to 8 the last really full question where we were so I can 9 see if she was able to answer whatever the question 10 was. 11 THE REPORTER: "Question: Now, you told 12 Mr. Dandar you were the commanding officer of 13 Flag -- actually, this was a -- was temporary for a 14 few weeks? 15 "Answer: Right. 16 "Question: Somebody went away? 17 "Answer: Right." 18 That is when the machine shut down. 19 THE COURT: That is -- there wasn't much. The 20 last thing I have written down, she was temporary 21 commanding officer. 22 MR. MOXON: Let me ask what I thought was the 23 last question. 24 BY MR. MOXON: 25 Q We were talking about psychotics and the fact that
163 1 you weren't aware of any psychotics that were at Flag. 2 Correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q And so obviously you don't have any personal 5 experience or knowledge of Flag handling or dealing with 6 psychotics, right? 7 A Right. 8 Q Obviously, you wouldn't have any knowledge of any 9 reports going to anyone, much less up lines about psychotics 10 that weren't there. Right? 11 A Okay. Correct. 12 Q You have no personal knowledge of the chairman of 13 the board of RTC receiving any reports about psychotics. 14 Right? 15 A Well, it's policy that he gets those reports. I 16 mean, there is written policy on writing anyone who goes 17 Type III, it has to be reported to RTC. So -- 18 Q And do you have any knowledge that the chairman of 19 the board would receive any -- any report that is allegedly 20 written to RTC? 21 A Mmm, but he's also the head of RTC. 22 Q Yes. Do you have -- 23 A Right. 24 Q -- any personal knowledge that any report that is 25 written from Flag to RTC would be received by the chairman
164 1 of the board? 2 A Well, yes, because when I was CO, every Thursday 3 we had to report things up line. That is where they went. 4 So, yes, he does receive those. 5 Q Your reports went to Flag Base -- 6 A No, they went to Int. 7 Q Int Management. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Int Management is the Flag Bureau -- 10 A Flag Bureau is one -- is like a coordinating 11 organization. But it's -- 12 Q Int is the -- 13 THE COURT: Wait a second now. She hadn't 14 finished her answer. Go on ahead. 15 A It is not Int Management, you know. It's -- it 16 may be a portion of Int Management, but these things go up 17 to Int Management. 18 BY MR. MOXON: 19 Q So you consider Int Management to be everybody, 20 like everybody that is allegedly senior to you? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. And that -- 23 A No. In Los Angeles -- you know, Int Management is 24 kind of broad. It has a whole org board and what it does is 25 manage internationally. And it is difficult sometimes to
165 1 keep the lines straight. I knew, at -- 2 Q You didn't really -- 3 A All I know, it was Int Org, FCB Org. In fact, 4 that was it. But there were different departments, you 5 know, but it's a broad thing. 6 Q You never really knew who exactly Int was, did 7 you? 8 A I can't remember. But, yes, at the time I did. I 9 certainly can't remember now. 10 Q And -- 11 A I had to report my stats to a particular -- it had 12 to go up lines to a particular post. 13 Q What post? 14 A I don't know. It's been sixteen years. I don't 15 remember who -- 16 THE COURT: Both of you will have to sort of 17 wait until the other is finished. Okay. Go ahead. 18 A I don't remember what post it was exactly that 19 those were sent up to. 20 BY MR. MOXON: 21 Q But your testimony it wasn't the Flag Bureau? 22 A I don't believe so. I believe we sent it up lines 23 to Int Management. 24 Q Okay. Again, just -- this may be my last question 25 on this. You have no idea who at, quote, Int Management you
166 1 were sending reports to. Right? 2 A What individual? 3 Q Or what post? 4 A I don't remember that. 5 Q Or even what organization? 6 A Well, Int Management. 7 Q You have never been to Int Management, have you? 8 A No. In L.A.? No, I have never. 9 Q But it definitely went to Los Angeles? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Right? 12 A Yes. 13 THE COURT: It is Int, I-N-T, or E-N-T. 14 MR. MOXON: Int for International. 15 THE COURT: I-N-T. 16 BY MR. MOXON: 17 Q And the executive director of Int, ED Int, is the 18 head of Int Management, right? 19 (The court reporter requests the question be 20 restated.) 21 Q The ED Int, that is, the executive director of 22 International, is the executive director of Int Management, 23 right? 24 A Yes. I'm sorry, he's the executive director, yes. 25 Q It is part of the Church of Scientology
167 1 International, isn't it? 2 A Yes. 3 THE COURT: Before you go on to your next 4 category, Mr. Howie, did you need to see me or put 5 something on the record? 6 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Or what? Let me ask a quick 8 question here. Are we about to finish with her or 9 not? 10 MR. MOXON: We're real close. 11 THE COURT: Can you wait a few minutes? 12 MR. HOWIE: I can wait. 13 THE COURT: See if we can finish this. 14 BY MR. MOXON: 15 Q Now, what policy, exact policy, are you talking 16 about where anything would go to RTC? Do you have a 17 specific policy you are referring to -- 18 A Mmm -- 19 Q -- that you can identify? 20 A -- well, no. 21 THE COURT: Well, are you done with your 22 answer? 23 A Well, you know, even in Flag all these different 24 organizations put out magazines. And even in there, there 25 is -- oftentimes there is a page that says, you know, to
168 1 report to RTC. 2 And in that itself it says any one who has gone 3 Type III must be reported to RTC, you know. So it's there. 4 BY MR. MOXON: 5 Q Okay. So this is a magazine where you remember 6 seeing it? 7 A That -- right. It is in the magazine I have seen 8 it. 9 Q You haven't seen it in any of the actual policy 10 volumes of the Church, have you? 11 A It's -- it's -- again, it's difficult for me to 12 remember if I saw it exactly in a policy. You read so many 13 policies, it's difficult to remember. 14 Q And are you claiming that back in 1987 there was a 15 magazine that said to send reports to RTC? 16 A No. I have seen that magazine more recently. 17 Q Much more recently? 18 A Yes. Yes. 19 Q Okay. 20 THE COURT: And you say that you have seen it 21 in a magazine or in policy that anyone who goes Type 22 III, what? 23 THE WITNESS: Any member of Scientology who 24 sees or is aware of someone that goes Type III has 25 to report it to RTC.
169 1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, that is in an exhibit in 2 evidence. 3 THE COURT: Okay. What exhibit is it? 4 MR. DANDAR: I'll find the number. It is 5 plaintiff's, it is the RTC newsletter in color, we 6 introduced it as an exhibit. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. MOXON: It is a 1997 document, published in 9 1997. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. MOXON: 12 Q Incidentally, any course you have studied on 13 the -- any administrative course, the items on the check 14 sheet are policies, they are not magazines. Right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q All right. 17 A I believe some of them are -- are magazines, older 18 magazines like Ability magazine. 19 Q But articles that are published from Ability 20 magazine that are published in the policy volumes? 21 A Right. 22 Q All right. 23 A And, generally, the magazines are oftentimes -- 24 oftentimes publish the policy letters. That is what is in 25 the magazine.
170 1 Q Yes, sure. 2 A So -- 3 Q Ms. Summers, you have no experience with anyone 4 ever ordering a psychotic person to die for PR reasons, do 5 you? 6 A No. 7 Q Now, you made some references to Science of 8 Survival which I did bring with me. This is a book written 9 in 1952 about the emotional tone scale? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And the purpose of the book was to outline this 12 philosophy and observations of the tone scale -- 13 A Yes. 14 Q -- right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q I just want to read an introductory part of the 17 introduction to you, see if you recall this. 18 "Dianetics has a basic goal, a good goal, a goal 19 which should not be discounted or thrown aside because some 20 quack will lose his income or because some revolutionary 21 will lose his crackpot cause. 22 23 "The goal of Dianetics is a sane world, a world 24 without insanity, without criminals and without war. If our 25 generations live to write history, let them sadly give a
171 1 page to those who, in this chaotic and dark age, sought, 2 through personal profit and through hate, to bring a truly 3 humanitarian science down." 4 Do you remember that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q The last paragraph of the book says, "A fact which 7 has been forgotten in this time of war and spiritual 8 pestilence is that there have been times in man's history 9 and prehistory when he has succeeded. It has not all been 10 gloom and hopelessness or else we would not be here today, 11 even as poor as we are. Men have lived to conquer all other 12 forms of life, from the mastodon to the microbe. Men have 13 lived to build walls and roads and pyramids which defy the 14 elements for thousands of years. Men have lived to write 15 music which has pleased the gods and sonnets which made the 16 angels sigh and the devil weep. This is a time for man to 17 succeed again. Here is the word, the technology, the goal. 18 The job is cut out and its name is survive." 19 Do you remember that? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q That was the basic purpose of this book is to help 22 people to better survive. Right? 23 A Well, that is what it says. Yes. 24 Q Okay. Now, you are a Christian now. Right? 25 A Yes.
172 1 Q You are a Catholic? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So are you familiar with the Bible? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you ever read the book of Joshua? 6 A I don't know if I read the book of Joshua. I'm -- 7 what I know is the new testament, the St. Paul letters. I'm 8 still studying it. It's been a long time since I read the 9 Bible. I just started reading it again. 10 Q I mention the book of Joshua because it has got a 11 lot of passages in there about God instructing Joshua to 12 slaughter cities of people that disagreed with God's law. 13 Do you remember those stories? 14 A No. 15 MR. DANDAR: Relevance. Relevance. Objection. 16 THE COURT: What is the relevance? 17 MR. MOXON: Well, she's a Christian now. 18 Apparently Mr. Dandar's view is that if 19 Scientologists are required to follow the scriptures 20 of Scientology, I guess this is -- we should talk to 21 Christians, too, and see if they are required to 22 follow the dictates of the Bible. And if they do 23 so, then Mr. Dandar and half of his witnesses, you 24 know, could reasonably be questioned on their 25 religious beliefs.
173 1 THE COURT: Well, I suspect they could, if they 2 were plaintiffs or defendants in a particular case 3 that involved their religion and whether or not 4 their religion and the practice negligently or 5 intentionally caused somebody's death. 6 But I'm going to let you make your point here 7 simply because I think that it's a point that needs 8 to be made. So go ahead. 9 MR. MOXON: I'm really only making the point -- 10 THE COURT: You can really make it to me 11 because that is probably the one you need to make it 12 to. 13 MR. MOXON: I know. It's probably not even 14 appropriate. In fact, I know it is not appropriate 15 to question a witness regarding her religious 16 beliefs or to question their credibility. It is 17 barred by Florida law. 18 THE COURT: Well, you know, and I surely -- I 19 don't surely need a lecture by you, Mr. Moxon, as to 20 what is appropriate or not. I said I would allow 21 you to ask the question if you wanted to, and 22 apparently you are not serious about asking your 23 question, so -- I'm overruling the objection. If 24 you want to ask it, ask it. If you don't, move on 25 to your next question.
174 1 BY MR. MOXON: 2 Q Well, you don't seriously believe that you would 3 be required to follow the dictates of the Bible that would 4 indicate that an infidel or someone who is a non-believer 5 should be slaughtered, do you? 6 A Mmm, well, I would have to know exactly what 7 passage you are talking about and read it, because I don't 8 believe the Bible dictates that. So I just don't want to 9 comment on the book of Joshua. I'm not -- I don't know the 10 book of Joshua. 11 Q Well, you don't seriously claim the passage from 12 Science of Survival you were referring to authorizes or 13 suggests that Scientologists should kill someone, do you? 14 A That is what it says. 15 Q You are seriously saying that the -- 16 A Do you want -- give it to me. I'll read it. 17 Q Here is what I'm asking. It's a simple question. 18 A Yes? 19 Q In your experience, you think Science of Survival 20 has authorized people to be killed? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And that has happened? 23 A Well, I can't say that it's happened. I'm telling 24 you that is what it says. 25 Q That is your interpretation?
175 1 A That is what it says. If you would read that 2 passage instead of other passages, as you did, but that is 3 what it says. 4 Q Okay, well -- 5 A It's right there. 6 Q Have you ever heard of that happening? 7 A No. 8 THE COURT: I think she already said she has 9 not. 10 MR. MOXON: All right. 11 BY MR. MOXON: 12 Q Now, Mr. Dandar asked you what your rank was. You 13 said PO3? 14 A Yes. 15 Q It is petty officer third class? 16 A Right. 17 Q That is -- and that is -- that is what your rank 18 was at the time you said you were the temporary captain of 19 the Flag? 20 A No. That wasn't was an earned rank. That is the 21 rank I earned before I left. You have to apply for a rank. 22 It wasn't a job, it was my rank. 23 Q And that -- that is literally the lowest rank in 24 the Sea Org, isn't it? 25 A First rank. Right.
176 1 Q So whatever position you held had no bearing upon 2 what your Sea Org rank was, right? 3 A No. No, they don't have bearing on one another. 4 Q Have you ever heard of the Free Scientology Center 5 in churches of Scientology where people who can't afford to 6 receive auditing may receive it without donations? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know anything about Volunteer Minister 9 Corps? 10 A Yes. I have heard of the Volunteer Minister 11 Corps. 12 Q Those are volunteer ministers that go out and give 13 Scientology assists or whatever to people -- 14 A Right. 15 Q -- in need. Is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Just a couple last questions. 18 You engaged in several pickets with people from 19 LMT at the Church, haven't you? 20 A Absolutely not. I have never picketed. I walked 21 to one picket and stood there and talked to Frank Oliver, 22 but I have never picketed. 23 Q Why not? 24 A Because when I got my money back from Flag, I 25 signed an agreement that said basically that I can't picket.
177 1 So I don't. And that is why. In fact, Mr. Dandar advised 2 me not to. I wanted to picket and he told me not to -- 3 Q You talked to Mr. Dandar -- 4 A -- picket. During the vigil in December there 5 were people that flew in to picket and go to that vigil. 6 And, yes, I wanted to do some picketing. And he looked at 7 my agreement and he said, "You shouldn't picket." 8 Q And Mr. Dandar was there at that time? 9 A Because they were having a board meeting. Yes. 10 Right. He was there with Dell, I believe. They had come to 11 visit for a couple of hours. 12 Q I guess you didn't think the people at the Church, 13 Church members, liked picketing, did you? 14 A Well, you know, I was a Church member and I 15 remember seeing picketers and it didn't bother me. I 16 thought they had the right to picket. That is a 17 constitutional right. They can do what they want. 18 MR. MOXON: I have no further questions, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right, redirect? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 22 THE COURT: Is this going to be brief? Because 23 I really want to let Mr. Howie get whatever it is he 24 wants to do -- 25 MR. DANDAR: I'll be glad to let him go ahead.
178 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, just -- 3 MR. HOWIE: Inquiry was made this morning by 4 Mr. Dandar as to whether we had the one additional 5 page of notes by Steve Jonas taken at the New York 6 meeting on March 28 of this year. 7 I indicated that I had withheld it with the 8 understanding and belief that it contained 9 Mr. Jonas' own mental impressions and constituted 10 work product and, further, because it was not 11 responsive to the original request. 12 If the Court recalls, on May 28 in court the 13 request was made that we provide Mr. Dandar with a 14 list of the seven or eight concerns of the March 28 15 meeting, a list presumably presented by the 16 attorneys for the Church of Scientology. 17 Mr. Dandar made the request this morning to the 18 Court that I tender the final page to the Court for 19 an in camera inspection to determine whether or not 20 it was responsive to that request. 21 And I have checked with Mr. Jonas, as well as 22 my client, and we have no objection to the procedure 23 of presenting it to the Court for in camera 24 inspection. 25 We would object to it being revealed to any
179 1 party in this case, not merely as to Mr. Dandar but 2 also as to the Church. 3 These were notes taken during a negotiation. 4 It is our position they reflect Mr. Jonas' mental 5 impressions during the course of that negotiation. 6 It's likely that those negotiations would continue. 7 And for that reason, we would object to it being 8 disclosed. 9 But in the spirit of the request for 10 production, we submit the notes to the Court at this 11 time for in camera inspection. 12 THE COURT: All right. Do you have an envelope 13 I can put that in so I will not get confused? I'm 14 afraid -- I'll probably take it home with me and 15 I'll bring it back with me tomorrow. 16 Madam Clerk, do you have an envelope? 17 Mr. Howie, take this to my secretary and -- see 18 if she's still here. 19 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I have an envelope. 20 THE COURT: No, there is one right there. 21 MR. LIROT: A nice clean one. 22 THE COURT: That is the one I want. 23 MR. HOWIE: Does the Court want me to mark it 24 in any way? 25 THE COURT: No, as long as it is in there, I'll
180 1 know why it is in there. 2 What I really have to do is look at these other 3 notes or that -- or that probably wouldn't make any 4 sense to me without looking at the other notes, so 5 if you want to stop in sometime tomorrow. If you 6 don't I can wait until you do. If I decide this is 7 clearly work product, it would be just to return 8 them to you. 9 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. If the Court were 10 to rule that, in fact, it's responsive to the 11 request for production, then I have made my 12 objections known -- 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. HOWIE: -- it's not responsive and that it 15 does constitute work product and mental impressions. 16 The other inquiry by Mr. Dandar, whether there 17 were any notes concerning the March 29th 18 continuation -- 19 THE COURT: Yes -- 20 MR. HOWIE: -- of the same meeting. 21 In fact, there are notes. In fact, Mr. Jonas 22 provided me with two pages -- a fax of two pages of 23 these notes. Again, upon inspection, I do not feel 24 that they are responsive to the request for 25 production.
181 1 However, I need to talk to Mr. Jonas, as well 2 as my client, to see if they have any particular 3 objections to their disclosure anyway. Having 4 inspected it, I don't have a problem with disclosure 5 myself, but I want to confirm that we have consensus 6 among Mr. Jonas, Mr. Minton and myself it is okay to 7 do that. 8 I can imagine they might raise the same 9 objections based on the fact these may constitute 10 some mental impressions that Mr. Jonas does not want 11 turned over to the Church of Scientology with whom 12 we're still in the midst of negotiations supposedly. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. HOWIE: Let me communicate with Mr. Jonas 15 and my client -- I just received them in the middle 16 of this afternoon -- and let me find out what their 17 position would be as turning these over in response 18 to the request for production. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, while we are on the record, 20 we attempted to call Mr. Howie earlier today to see 21 if we could get permission to talk to Mr. Jonas 22 specifically to have him translate some of his 23 handwriting which we can't quite decipher, and that 24 was really the only purpose. We wanted to ask 25 Mr. Howie if we could talk directly to Mr. Jonas.
182 1 There are some phrases used in some of his notes 2 which we just can't read. And we were -- 3 THE COURT: You mean the notes are illegible as 4 far as you are concerned? 5 MR. LIROT: They are illegible, and some of the 6 words we think could mean a number of different 7 things. So we were hoping we could get his 8 information, just reading through the notes, and 9 actually transcribe that in something other than 10 handwriting. 11 So while we're on the record I was going to ask 12 if that would be all right with Mr. Howie, with the 13 approval of the Court? 14 MR. HOWIE: Well, let me do this, your Honor. 15 I'll speak to Mr. Jonas if that is the reason why 16 you are trying to reach him. I understood you were 17 trying to reach him sometime this morning. I didn't 18 know why. 19 Frankly, I did have Mr. Dandar's message, but I 20 presumed it was a cell phone and Mr. Dandar is in 21 court, so -- 22 MR. LIROT: Exactly correct. 23 MR. HOWIE: So let me talk to Mr. Jonas about 24 that and let me see if I can facilitate that for 25 you.
183 1 MR. LIROT: Very good. 2 MR. HOWIE: I'm sure Mr. Jonas, having turned 3 over the notes, would have no problem with that. 4 THE COURT: It may well be. I don't know if 5 we'll make these notes an exhibit in this record and 6 if, in fact, they are something that are illegible, 7 it may be a good idea for somebody to just sort of 8 put them into typed form and have Mr. Jonas agree 9 that is what his notes said and use the typed 10 version, as opposed to the words that are attached 11 to the -- to the notes. I think they have done that 12 with some of the caretakers' notes, as I recall. I 13 have seen those transcribed. 14 MR. DANDAR: Right. It might be easy just to 15 have Mr. Jonas call in to the Court and speak over 16 the speakerphone and read his notes off and we'll be 17 done with that. 18 THE COURT: That is not easy. 19 MR. HOWIE: Let me suggest the option of having 20 the typewritten version. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. HOWIE: See if they're willing to do that. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. HOWIE: I'll be able to report back to the 25 Court late in the morning or just after the lunch
184 1 break, if that is all right with the Court. 2 THE COURT: That would be fine. 3 MR. HOWIE: Okay. Thank you very much. 4 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Howie. 5 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. 6 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Dandar. Let's see if we 7 can finish up this witness. 8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q The reason why you did not live at the Hacienda is 11 that is for adults only, correct? 12 A Right. No children. 13 Q Okay. Your note which is dated -- well, I can't 14 find the date on here -- but it is Exhibit 187 of the 15 defendant dated August -- no, October 9, 2001, where you say 16 at the bottom of the first page, talking about Stacy, "She 17 called Dell and said she wanted to visit her," didn't you 18 get that from Stacy herself? 19 A It's -- it's probably -- it's very likely, because 20 she was about the only one I was talking to at any length at 21 that time -- 22 Q Okay. 23 A -- besides Patrick. 24 Q Okay. All right. And the reason why you were 25 able to say that the man that Mr. Kartuzinski audited or
185 1 processed to die at the hotel that was -- came from up lines 2 is because you were -- your senior told you that, didn't 3 she? 4 A Definitely. 5 Q Now, the book What Is Scientology, that is not a 6 book that Scientologists study, is it? 7 A No. 8 Q That is a book that is published for the 9 non-Scientology public to read? 10 A Yes. It's a dissemination tool. Although, 11 actually, I think that new public do study that book. 12 Q New public? 13 A Or portions of that book. I think there is some 14 kind of introductory course or something where they study 15 that. But it's newer people, yes. 16 Q Okay. So would it be fair to classify the book 17 What Is Scientology as a PR piece for the -- either the 18 brand-new members or people out in the public who are not 19 members? 20 MR. MOXON: Objection to the form. 21 THE COURT: Yes, it is -- do you know that? 22 THE WITNESS: That it's a PR piece? Well, it 23 is, it's an introduction book is what I would say, 24 PR, yes. 25
186 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q The fact that you had no personal experience with 3 a PTS Type III, does that mean, as a Scientologist for 20 4 years, you don't know what the policy is on how to handle a 5 PTS Type III? 6 A No, because that -- the policy is still in courses 7 that I studied. 8 Q And these volunteer ministers of the Church of 9 Scientology, they are ministering to people who are not 10 members of the Church of Scientology, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Now, when Mr. Moxon said the Science of Survival 13 book was published in 1952, is he violating a policy known 14 as tech degrade? 15 A Yes, he is. 16 MR. MOXON: Objection. 17 A I know he is. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q What is that? 20 A Tech degrade is you are not allowed to invalidate 21 any of Ron's writing, any policy, by saying it is old, it is 22 outdated, we don't do that anymore. So that is tech 23 degrade. It is. 24 THE COURT: Technical what? 25 THE WITNESS: Technical degrade.
187 1 THE COURT: D-E -- 2 THE WITNESS: D-E-G-R-A-D-E. 3 MR. DANDAR: I'm asking permission, this is 4 outside of the scope of cross, but I forgot to ask 5 this question. 6 MR. MOXON: I object, whatever it is. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Tell the Court what a success story is. 10 A A success story is -- it's a little blurb you 11 write at the end of every course. It's a step on the 12 routing form. If you recall, I talked about the routing 13 form before. One of the things you have to do is write a 14 success story that says what you got out of the course. 15 That is it basically. What you got out of the course, your 16 success in the course. Then you move on. 17 Q What if you didn't have success in the course, 18 could you write -- what happens then? 19 A Then you are not done. Then you correct it, you 20 get corrected until you have success on the course, yes. 21 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have. Thank you. 22 THE COURT: Anything further? 23 MR. MOXON: Just a couple, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25
188 1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. MOXON: 3 Q On the PTS/SP course, one of the -- 4 THE COURT: PTS -- 5 BY MR. MOXON: 6 Q PTS/SP course you said you took -- 7 A I was on it, actually, when I left. I didn't 8 complete it. 9 Q Did you know What Is Scientology is one of the 10 things on the course? 11 A Yes, of course. It's on every course. 12 Q Okay. 13 A No, Keeping Scientology -- I'm sorry, I'm thinking 14 Keeping Scientology Working. 15 No, I didn't know whether What Is Scientology is 16 on that course. 17 Q You don't know what other courses it is on? 18 A No, I wouldn't know what specific courses it is 19 on. 20 Q Now, in your deposition do you remember I asked 21 you about success story and you testified that the success 22 stories that you wrote were all honest and sincere? 23 A Yes. Yes. 24 MR. MOXON: Okay. Thank you. 25 THE COURT: Is that it?
189 1 MR. MOXON: That is it. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, you asked one question about 3 the newsletter where the reporting up requirement 4 was and -- 5 THE COURT: Are you done with this witness is 6 what I'm asking? 7 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. 8 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ma'am. You 9 may step down. As far as I'm concerned, any of 10 these witnesses that come in and testify and are 11 done are released from the rule. 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 13 MR. LIROT: I wanted to -- 14 THE COURT: They are released from the rule. 15 They can't be talking to witnesses about their 16 testimony who haven't testified. 17 MR. DANDAR: Right. 18 THE COURT: But they can talk to folks that 19 have testified and they are all done, and they can 20 chat. 21 MR. LIROT: Great. 22 THE COURT: Go ahead now. 23 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry to interrupt, Judge. 24 It was Exhibit Number 37. I want to verify 25 that with the clerk right now, if I may.
190 1 Judge, I'll verify which one it is and bring it 2 up first thing in the morning. 3 THE COURT: What is it you are really looking 4 for? 5 MR. LIROT: You wanted to know what the exhibit 6 number was of the document for reporting up PTS Type 7 III. 8 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 9 I have two questions. I had asked the Church 10 or -- or either side, really, to tell me -- and I 11 think I would like to know this before Ms. Yingling 12 testified, two things: About the first time that 13 there was any testimony about a foreign bank check, 14 and the first time it was produced. 15 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, you asked me about that, 16 your Honor. I have neglected to file it. I will 17 file it tomorrow. The first date was August 15, 18 2001. 19 THE COURT: I think we did discuss that. 20 Right. 21 MR. MOXON: I will file a short memo tomorrow 22 that has that in it. 23 THE COURT: You will file it before 24 Ms. Yingling's testimony? 25 MR. MOXON: Yes.
191 1 THE COURT: I was not sure it would matter, but 2 I did want to know that, since she's testifying, in 3 case I have any questions that might relate to 4 whatever it is that is in there, I wouldn't want to 5 ask a stupid question. 6 MR. MOXON: I apologize. I'll get that to you. 7 THE COURT: Not that I haven't asked plenty, 8 but I try to keep them at a minimum. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, we found it is Exhibit 10 Number 40. 11 THE COURT: Let me see. This -- this is the 12 newsletter? 13 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 14 D/Inspector General Office. And on Page 2, I 15 believe it has -- it says "Matters of RTC Concern." 16 THE COURT: Okay now, tell me what exhibit 17 number that is again. 18 MR. LIROT: Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 40. 19 THE COURT: Okay. And this is where it talks 20 about the need to report up RTC or whatever it is 21 you are suggesting it says? 22 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 23 MR. MOXON: The type is so small on this I 24 can't read it. But I understand this is 1997, is 25 that right? Can you read that?
192 1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I think I gave you the 2 original, I think. 3 THE COURT: Oh, good. Maybe it is in my book. 4 MR. DANDAR: You can read it much better. 5 MR. LIROT: Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: It is also in the Command Lines of 7 Scientology book. 8 THE COURT: Now, I have a question for you-all, 9 since we have just a minute here and I know 10 everybody would like to beat traffic. And that 11 suits me, too. I would, too. 12 Do you know, one of the things I don't have in 13 the depositions -- and I don't want it, I mean, I 14 have too many books -- but what is the testimony -- 15 I take it that as part of the discovery process 16 someone has -- I mean, I even remember 17 Mr. Kartuzinski being asked what did he do with 18 this, and he indicated he reported -- and he 19 reported to someone, I believe a woman who was his 20 superior. 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 22 THE COURT: Is that it? And I believe she was 23 talked to? Deposed? 24 MR. DANDAR: I'm not sure. 25 THE COURT: Well, what -- what is the testimony
193 1 that the plaintiff has or the defendant has that 2 suggests that is what happened in this case? 3 MR. DANDAR: It's -- it's the established 4 policy of the Church of Scientology that you must 5 report up lines. Otherwise, you get put into lower 6 conditions called ethics. 7 THE COURT: I understand what you are 8 suggesting. But I'm asking what is the testimony in 9 this case as to what happened with these reports on 10 Lisa McPherson? 11 MR. DANDAR: On the -- on the defendant's own 12 testimony -- I can't tell you right now, I would 13 have to go look it up -- on the plaintiff's experts 14 who were former Scientologists, it has to be 15 reported all of the way up to the top. 16 THE COURT: Well, did anybody ever ask, whoever 17 it is, this Mr. Kartuzinski's supervisor, "What did 18 you do with these?" 19 MR. DANDAR: I think I did, but I can't stand 20 here and just tell you off the top of my head. 21 THE COURT: And if she said, "I sent them to 22 Mike Rinder," did somebody ever ask Mr. Rinder, 23 "What did you do with them?" 24 And if he said, "I sent them to David 25 Miscavige," that would certainly answer that
194 1 question, wouldn't it? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes. But I haven't been able to 3 take Mr. Rinder's deposition. He hasn't made 4 himself available. 5 THE COURT: Well, I just used him because I 6 know he's -- 7 MR. MOXON: I can answer your question. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MOXON: The answer is I haven't read 10 absolutely every deposition, but I tried to, and 11 that there is no -- there is no testimony, there is 12 no evidence, that Mr. Kartuzinski sent any reports 13 anywhere outside of Flag whatsoever. 14 THE COURT: But did he send them -- my 15 recollection is, in reading his, is he sent them to, 16 I believe, the -- he said they would have gone into 17 the PC folder, and that would have been available to 18 this woman that I believe was his supervisor, who 19 was the head of FSO or in some capacity there. 20 MR. MOXON: Yes, they could have been available 21 to her, I suppose other people at FSO. 22 THE COURT: Has anybody take her deposition? 23 MR. MOXON: Mmm, no, I don't know. In any 24 event -- no. 25 THE COURT: But there is no testimony in the
195 1 record that anybody sent anything on the Lisa 2 McPherson case -- 3 MR. MOXON: Absolutely not. 4 THE COURT: You don't know what my question 5 was. I could have gotten you to have a real bad 6 answer there. 7 MR. MOXON: Oh. 8 THE COURT: You just presumed what my question 9 was going to be. 10 MR. MOXON: You taught me a lesson. Excuse me 11 for interrupting you. 12 THE COURT: There is no testimony that you are 13 aware of that said these reports went to David 14 Miscavige or anybody up in that level of -- of -- 15 out in Los Angeles? 16 MR. MOXON: That is correct. 17 THE COURT: Someone in the RTC? 18 MR. MOXON: Or anywhere else. 19 THE COURT: And it's your position, 20 Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Dandar? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes? 22 THE COURT: It is your position that that is 23 what did happen because that is what had to happen 24 and that is what would have happened in this case? 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
196 1 THE COURT: But you have no proof of that, 2 other than what you perceive to be the -- this is 3 the way it is, Number 40 and -- 4 MR. DANDAR: I think -- I think it's in the 5 police records, the Clearwater Police Department 6 reports on their investigation saying it was 7 reported to Int in Los Angeles. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Well -- 9 MR. DANDAR: I'll find it. 10 THE COURT: Obviously I couldn't get an 11 agreement here. I thought this might be, at 5 12 o'clock, an easy time to get you people to agree to 13 something, but maybe I was wrong. So we'll have to 14 look and see -- I'll look and see and decide 15 sometime. 16 MR. DANDAR: We'll find out. 17 THE COURT: Is that it for the day? 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: One short thing. If I could 19 just hand up one opinion by the appellate court. 20 THE COURT: Okay, you may. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Called Baumgartner. You have 22 probably heard of it on several occasions. It is 23 relevant to what he -- the issue I tried to reach 24 today. And at some point we'll have a chance to 25 talk about it.
197 1 THE COURT: Absolutely. I'll even take it 2 home, and if I have a chance, I'll read it tonight, 3 along with all my other reading. 4 Okay, we'll be in recess. 5 (WHEREUPON, Court stands adjourned at 5:05 6 p.m.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
198 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 10th day of June, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25