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            4                      CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11



                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
            8   Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,

           10             Plaintiff,

           11   vs.

                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,


           18   PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
                CONTENTS:           Testimony of Ahmed Elkamel.
                DATE:               June 11, 2002, morning session.
                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
           22                       St. Petersburg, Florida.

           23   BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
                                    Circuit Judge.
                REPORTED BY:        Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
           25                       Deputy Official Court Reporter,
                                    Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.

2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorneys for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B 7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 9 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 10 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 11 Organization. 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 17 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 18 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
3 1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 AHMED ELKAMEL 4 7 DIRECT Mr. Fugate 4 13 4 CROSS Mr. Dandar 19 6 REDIRECT Mr. Fugate 34 6 5 Recess 41 16 Reporter's Certificate 42 1 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
4 1 (The proceedings resumed at 10:39 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Who do we have? 3 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed now? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Ahmed Elkamel. 6 ______________________________________ 7 AHMED ELKAMEL, 8 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 9 and testified as follows: 10 THE COURT: You may proceed. 11 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. May it 12 please the court. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Mr. Elkamel, will you state your first and your 16 last name and spell them for the court reporter, in case I 17 spelled them wrong? 18 A Yes, sir. First name Ahmed, A-h-m-e-d, last name, 19 Elkamel, E-l-k-a-m-e-l. 20 THE COURT: E-l -- 21 THE WITNESS: -- k-a-m-e-l. 22 THE COURT: And is that all one word? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. 25
5 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q And sir, can you tell us how you're employed, or 3 what your position is? 4 A Yes, sir. I'm a security officer for Church of 5 Scientology, Flag Service Organization. 6 Q And is that in Clearwater? 7 A Yes, it is. 8 Q And how long have you been in that position, sir? 9 A Since late '97. 10 Q 1997? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q And what is your specific responsibility as a 13 security officer in Clearwater? 14 A Mainly in charge of monitor room, monitoring 15 alarms and cameras. 16 THE COURT: Did you say monitor room? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q For the sake of sort of painting a visual picture, 20 what is the monitor room and what is it that you monitor? 21 A It's a little security room that has -- has TVs 22 and cameras from different properties that we own, as well 23 as fire alarms; you know, all detectors that go in hotels 24 and -- 25 Q All the --
6 1 A Detectors for, you know, smoke alarm, fire alarms, 2 of different buildings that comes together. 3 Q And when you say TVs, you mean television 4 monitors? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And does the room -- about how many monitors does 7 the room have in it? 8 A About -- I'm not sure exactly. Like maybe at 9 least 15, 20. 10 Q 15 or 20? 11 A Something like that, yeah. 12 Q And do you know -- when you first started that 13 position, can you -- were all the televisions there, or is 14 that sort of progressed since 1997? 15 A Yeah. It's been -- when I started, it wasn't 16 there. It was in a different location. Lot less. It's 17 been -- it's been increasing since -- since that time. 18 Q Now, what exactly do you do as a -- a monitor in 19 the monitoring room? 20 A Well, I just -- basically I just watch, you know, 21 the monitors to see any possible security situation, like an 22 intruder or fire situation or something going on. And I 23 would dispatch a security guard if needed, or alert my 24 superior, call the police for any -- just -- any security 25 reason. You know, somebody coming in the building, an
7 1 intruder or a fire someplace or an alarm, a burglar alarm in 2 the building. 3 Q And what -- what kind of cameras do the television 4 monitors reflect video of, pictures from? 5 A What do you mean by what kind? 6 Q Well, are they security cameras? 7 A Yes. Yes, they are security cameras. 8 Q Now, did you become aware of an organization that 9 was known as Lisa McPherson Trust or LMT? 10 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 11 Q And did you have any specific instructions with 12 regard to monitoring cameras, or a camera that was directed 13 towards the LMT? 14 A Well, I monitor all my cameras. 15 Q Yes. 16 A I mean, I have to watch for security situation. 17 But yes, I was aware of their presence there, so I 18 was aware of, like, potential problem with these people. So 19 as a security officer, I was watching that area as well, 20 yes; that camera, yes. 21 Q Now, did you -- did you prepare -- I've shown you 22 what is now marked in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit 127, a 23 series of video clips. Did you, sir, prepare that series of 24 video clips? 25 A Yes, I did, sir.
8 1 MR. FUGATE: All right. You want to just play 2 it for a moment? 3 And as I understand it, we're going to play 4 enough that he can look at it, and we'll see the 5 date, time and the alarm, is that correct, and then 6 we'll ask questions about that? 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 (The videotape was shown.) 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Do you see, sir, the alarm, word "alarm" down here 11 in the corner? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q And do you see the time and the date up at the 14 top? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 Q Is this part of the video clips that you prepared 17 with regard to the LMT at or about the time -- the date is 18 August 24th, 2001? 19 A Yes. Date stamp and time stamp. It's all -- it's 20 part of the equipment. It's part of the recording. 21 Q And did you review the entire video clip that -- 22 that has been marked and provided in evidence in this case 23 as Defendant's Exhibit 127? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 MR. FUGATE: All right. Unless you want to go
9 1 further with it, I'll just ask him questions about 2 the alarm. 3 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. That's what I want to hear. 4 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q The -- 7 MR. FUGATE: May I step away from the podium? 8 THE COURT: You may. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Do you see the -- the alarm, the word "alarm" 11 here? Could you tell us what that signifies? 12 A Yes. So that's part of my equipment in the 13 monitor room. That doesn't mean that there is a motion 14 detector, physical motion detector, you know, in that 15 location; it's just part of the set-up I have. And it's 16 actually just an alarm -- some motion into the picture 17 itself on the TV screen that I'm watching. 18 Q Let me -- let me make sure I understand what 19 you're saying. 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q Do you recognize the scene depicted here as video 22 shot from the Waterson camera? 23 A Yes. The camera is on Waterson. 24 Q And do you know where the camera is located? 25 A Yes.
10 1 Q Where is the camera located? 2 A It's located on what's the northeast side of the 3 Clearwater Bank Building, church building. 4 Q Is the camera located on church property? 5 A Oh, yes, definitely. 6 Q And is that where the staff dining hall is, the 7 location where the camera -- the side of the building that 8 the camera is on? 9 A That's correct. That building. 10 Q And to your understanding, what's depicted in the 11 view of the camera here as we see it on the screen? 12 A Well, the main purpose is to monitor the -- it's 13 the loading dock of the Clearwater Bank Building. That's 14 where all the food comes in, different deliveries, food 15 deliveries. 16 Q And that would be back this way? 17 A Yeah. That -- that first door there. 18 Q And then the LMT would be where? 19 A LMT's just a little bit before that black car over 20 there. 21 Q Over here? 22 A SUV. Yeah. About there. There's a small 23 building -- small building between LMT and the Clearwater 24 Bank Building. 25 Q Now, when you say the word "alarm" comes up if
11 1 there's motion detected, is -- are you saying there's a 2 motion detector on the camera that focuses down at the scene 3 that's depicted there? 4 A No, sir. It's not part of the camera; it's part 5 of the -- the -- my monitor, the TV set that I have. 6 It's -- it's like a standard security equipment that you can 7 use on -- on one of your picture, you can use that picture, 8 the TV itself as -- you know, to detect motion. 9 Q It -- 10 A So there's no physical motion detector on the 11 camera or outside there; it's just something that's part of 12 the -- the TV, basically, on -- 13 Q It's built into the TV monitor that you're 14 monitoring? 15 A Yeah. You can say that. It goes with our little 16 equipment. But basically just detects motion on that -- on 17 the picture that I'm watching. There is no alarm anywhere 18 else. It's just for -- 19 Q To alert you as a monitor of the screens? 20 A That's correct. To alert me that, you know, 21 motion on that specific picture or -- 22 Q Now -- 23 THE COURT: Run some more of those. I want to 24 see where that thing flashes. 25 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
12 1 (The videotape was shown.) 2 THE COURT: Well, look: That thing flashes 3 every time somebody steps up on that sidewalk there. 4 You think that's just coincidence, that your 5 screen would have an alarm blink every time that 6 occurs? 7 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. That's the purpose -- 8 that's the purpose of it. When there is movement on 9 picture then there's little alarm. 10 THE COURT: When there's movement on the 11 picture. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 14 MR. FUGATE: Let me -- do you want to view any 15 more of that, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: No. That's his answer, that's his 17 answer. I don't get it, but that's -- 18 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me see if I can -- 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. FUGATE: -- ask a question. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q First of all, let's talk about the alarm, since 23 that's a question that has been raised. 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q Is this an audible or visual alarm? Do you know
13 1 what I mean? 2 A Yes. 3 This one, there's a visual. There's an option to 4 have a sound on it, but I have many of those on different -- 5 other locations, and I don't have necessary to sound 6 connected to this one. 7 Q And by way of example, if this were a scene not of 8 the LMT but, let's say, a scene of the Ft. Harrison lobby, 9 do you have a camera that watches the -- what's egress and 10 ingress of the Ft. Harrison lobby? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q Would this same thing -- would be the alarm system 13 be set up to work on that as well? 14 A Yes. On all my -- all my pictures, I can do that. 15 And I use that in several -- yeah. Several locations. 16 Q And can you tell us with any more detail how this 17 system with the alarm function works, as far as the motion 18 that's sensed on the screen? Is -- it stay on the whole 19 time or does it flash, or how does it work? 20 A Basically, so you can -- so with that tape 21 equipment, you can select to have it on or off, with sound 22 or no sound, and you can select area that you want monitor. 23 Pretty much like you would do to -- you know, you can just 24 select zone that you want to take on the picture when motion 25 is. Like, for example, I wouldn't put it on the middle of
14 1 the street, because with a car passing by, I would get, you 2 know, I would get this alarm all the time. 3 And the message itself, the time, you can adjust 4 it to whatever time you want to last. Like if there's 5 motion, it could be split for -- I mean, short for second, 6 two seconds, 10. You decide what you want to do. 7 THE COURT: Well, then, you have that set to go 8 off when it -- there was motion on the sidewalk. 9 THE WITNESS: That's correct, ma'am. Monitor 10 my -- just the loading dock area where that phone 11 is, and the door there, and then just a little bit 12 past the sidewalk there, so in case -- in case 13 somebody from LMT would come to on my property, I 14 would know about it. 15 THE COURT: Yeah. Well, if somebody from LMT 16 wasn't coming from your property -- somebody from 17 LMT was going to the car, and an alarm was flashing 18 when they were on the sidewalk outside of LMT, 19 right? 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Just when -- the angle of 21 the picture -- I mean, when somebody opens the door, 22 the door that was open on the first picture, also, 23 you know, get the alarm. 24 It's kind of, you know -- sometimes little 25 tricky to adjust. I have to select a point. But
15 1 it's not -- 2 THE COURT: So you had selected a point 3 outside -- maybe more than one. But you had 4 selected a point for that alarm to go off when 5 somebody went outside that LMT door, right? 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Covering my property and 7 little bit just between the church property and LMT. 8 Not necessarily on LMT. 9 But as you can see, the angle here points up 10 all the way -- that's the whole block pretty much, 11 so -- 12 But mainly to cover my property and in between. 13 THE COURT: Well, nobody was on your property, 14 were they, when that alarm was going off? 15 THE WITNESS: No. Not on that point, no. 16 THE COURT: So I mean -- let's -- you know, we 17 ought not here play games. This was set up for the 18 alarm to go off when somebody came out of the LMT 19 property, right? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, partially, yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Well, the -- the door we saw open in the first 25 frames down this way, that's the door that goes to the
16 1 loading dock area on the church property? 2 A That's correct. 3 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Fugate, what I saw very 4 clearly was, there was movement out in the street, 5 people opened the doors, people opened the trunks, 6 nothing was happening. Somebody walked, stepped up 7 on the curb -- not the church's property, not the 8 door, on the sidewalk -- and the alarm started going 9 again. 10 MR. FUGATE: That's correct. 11 THE COURT: Yeah. So it's pretty obvious he 12 had it set for that purpose. 13 I'm not saying there's anything wrong with 14 that. 15 MR. FUGATE: No, I'm just trying to get -- get, 16 I thought, your question answered. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q And let me ask one final question -- 19 THE COURT: No. I understand it quite clearly 20 now. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: I mean, I just -- I just wanted to 23 be sure -- 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, then -- 25 THE COURT: -- we understood --
17 1 MR. FUGATE: -- let me move on -- 2 THE COURT: -- here. 3 MR. FUGATE: -- then. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Now, do you recall an incident -- 6 Well, let me ask you this: As a result of the 7 LMT, the court injunctions and everything that was going on 8 there, did you come to learn who Mr. Bob Minton was? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Who Mr. John Merrett was? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And other people that were associated with the 13 LMT? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And in monitoring this camera on Church property, 16 did you ever monitor a video of Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett 17 going up a ladder and moving the camera? 18 A Yeah. I did -- I did saw that. They came -- they 19 came out of the -- prior to the injunction, by walking 20 toward our property, and took a ladder and went up the 21 ladder, and messing up with the camera, turning it, twisting 22 it, taking picture of the camera. And -- 23 Q Taking a -- a -- a still photograph picture of 24 the -- 25 A Yeah.
18 1 Q -- of the surveillance camera, video camera? 2 A Yes. That's what they were doing. Merrett had a 3 camera, I think, or Bob Minton had a camera, and they were 4 taking turns at going up the ladder and taking picture of 5 the camera that I had there. 6 Q And so the camera was no secret to the folks that 7 were at the LMT, as far as you could tell by looking at the 8 videos, correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And if -- if the picture came back some, down 11 here, across the street directly in front of the staff 12 dining hall, were there Clearwater -- off-duty Clearwater 13 police officers during dining sessions? 14 A Yes. We had the police officer there, or two, for 15 a long period of time, like a year at least. 16 Q Over a year? 17 A Yeah. A year or more. I'm not exactly sure the 18 duration. 19 Q And of course, at the top, although it's hard to 20 see in this picture, this is part of the security system, to 21 have the time running and the date stamp on the picture? 22 A Yes. Correct. Same -- same as the alarms. It's 23 part of the standard security equipment. And you know, I 24 run the date stamp and time stamp all the time. 25 Q That's -- and you -- I think I asked you, but just
19 1 to make sure, you made the video that's 127? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 MR. FUGATE: That's all the questions I have. 4 THE COURT: All right. Cross examine. 5 CROSS EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Good morning, Mr. Elkamel. 8 A Good morning. 9 Q And how long have you been living in Clearwater? 10 A Well, I came first year in -- it was June, 1990. 11 Q 1990? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q Okay. Are you with OSA? 14 A No. 15 Q Who is your senior? 16 A My senior is security chief, Paul Kellerhals. 17 Q Are you a Sea Org member? 18 A Yes, I am. 19 Q Have you been a Sea Org member since June of 1990? 20 A I started in June, '88. 21 Q Okay. And when did you start to work for 22 Mr. Kellerhals's security? 23 A Late '97. 24 Q What did you do before that? 25 A Well, before that I did --
20 1 THE COURT: This is not a discovery deposition, 2 you know, Counselor. 3 MR. DANDAR: All right. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Did you ever work at the Ft. Harrison Hotel? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q And what was your position there, or your post? 8 A There is -- what period of time? 9 Q Let's say 1995; November and December. 10 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, then I object. He's 11 validating the video. And if we're talking about 12 '97 to the end of the video, I have no problem with 13 the question. 14 MR. DANDAR: I just want to know if he was at 15 the hotel during those two months. 16 THE COURT: I'll let that one question. 17 A I think I was just switching from the Sandcastle 18 to the Ft. Harrison. I was being moved in as a hotel 19 cashier. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Did the Sandcastle have video surveillance cameras 22 like you just -- you just played for us at the bank 23 building? 24 MR. FUGATE: Point in time? 25
21 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q In 1995? 3 A I'm not exactly sure what was the security 4 situation. I knew they just had -- I'm aware of some of the 5 Ft. Harrison had, like, few -- few cameras and -- there; 6 maybe not even recorded. Yeah. I think they had maybe one 7 recorded at the Ft. Harrison front door. I don't know about 8 the Sandcastle security at that time. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Did the Ft. Harrison, in November and December of 11 '95, have outdoor security surveillance cameras in the rear 12 of the hotel? 13 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 14 this as being outside -- 15 THE COURT: It really is. It sounds like a 16 discovery deposition. 17 MR. DANDAR: All right. 18 THE COURT: And don't -- don't hem and haw. 19 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: I mean -- 21 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 22 THE COURT: -- it's very obvious what you're 23 trying to ask here. And I might understand it, and 24 it might be very interesting to have him come in for 25 a discovery deposition.
22 1 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 2 THE COURT: This is to validate that video. 3 And I'm not going to sit here while you take 4 discovery. 5 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 6 THE COURT: So don't be humming and -- 7 MR. DANDAR: I didn't -- 8 THE COURT: -- hawing here. 9 MR. DANDAR: -- mean to do that. I didn't mean 10 to do that. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q How many security cameras are on the Clearwater 13 Bank Building on the outside? 14 MR. FUGATE: We're talking about '97? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. '90 -- 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Well, let's talk about this one. August of -- 18 24th and 23rd of 2001. 19 A I think I have three. 20 Q Okay. How many security cameras are focused on 21 Waterson's sidewalk? 22 A There's this one that's northbound, and there's 23 another one by the other entrance where the staff -- yeah, 24 but -- down to see the staff coming into the -- 25 Q So --
23 1 A -- building. 2 Q So there's a camera looking southbound and there's 3 one looking northbound? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q And is there another one? 6 A There's another one on the other side, what was 7 northbound, yes. 8 Q On the other side of what? 9 A On Ft. Harrison side. 10 Q Okay. So is there only one on the Ft. Harrison 11 side? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And does it face north or south? 14 A It's pointing south to look at the exits of our 15 building. 16 Q Is there any camera facing north on Ft. Harrison 17 to look at the front entrance to the Lisa McPherson Trust? 18 A No. 19 Q Now, as the court pointed out, this "alarm" word 20 doesn't come on unless someone is on the sidewalk from the 21 point of the camera north on the sidewalk, is that right? 22 A It's a little section of the sidewalk. Not the 23 whole sidewalk. 24 Q And are you able to control what portion of the 25 picture the alarm will activate, by the software in your
24 1 computer? 2 A I mean, it's not via computer. But you can 3 control to some degree. There's, you know, a dot that you 4 decide to have active or not active. You can have the whole 5 picture active or you can have part of the picture active. 6 You just decide where you want to monitor motion, that's 7 all. 8 MR. DANDAR: Can we play that again, please? 9 (The videotape was shown.) 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q So can you, with your equipment, decide to make it 12 activate "alarm" when someone steps on the entire sidewalk 13 that's in this picture, from the north side of the Lisa 14 McPherson Trust all the way down to the church property? 15 A With the equipment, you could. 16 Q Is that what you did in this case? You had it 17 activated from the canopy over the trust, which goes beyond 18 the trust building, all the way down to the church property, 19 is that right? 20 A No. Not correct. 21 Q So if we had a video showing someone coming 22 straight out the door of the Lisa McPherson Trust, going 23 straight across the street, are you saying the alarm would 24 not come on? 25 A Not necessarily. It might come on.
25 1 Q If you just wanted to have the alarm come on to 2 see who was coming towards the door, who was at the door of 3 the church property, you could do that, correct? 4 A To some degree, yes. 5 Q You could eliminate everybody that's up here by 6 the Lisa McPherson Trust, couldn't you? 7 A Not entirely, no. Because -- no. Because I have 8 to cover this door, and then I have to -- some dot there. 9 And that's where their feets are coming around. When 10 they're just walking the sidewalk, the feets are there, and 11 the top of my door is right there. 12 Q This is the top of the door right here, right? 13 That's the door handle? 14 A That's the door handle, yeah. 15 Q In the bottom left corner of the picture. 16 A I believe so, yeah. I'm not so sure now. 17 Q And next to this door, if we play it, this is a 18 telephone, correct? 19 A That's correct. That's the telephone. 20 Q So the delivery people can say, "I'm here to 21 deliver something." 22 A Mm-hmm. 23 Q And then next -- 24 THE COURT: Excuse me. You have to say yes and 25 no for the court reporter, okay?
26 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q And then next to this bank building is another 4 office building that is owned or operated by the Church of 5 Scientology, correct? 6 A I don't know about that. There's another building 7 between? 8 Q Between the trust and the Clearwater Bank 9 Building. 10 A There's a small building. It's not owned by 11 Scientology, as far as I know. 12 Q This -- this camera that's taking this 13 surveillance videos, is it -- can you operate it by remote 14 control and change the angle? 15 A No. That is a fixed camera. 16 Q So the -- 17 A Huge cameras on top of the wall. 18 Q Do all the outside cameras mounted on the property 19 owned by the Church of Scientology have this alarm system? 20 A Most of them. I may have one or two that doesn't 21 have that. 22 Let me think. 23 Most of them, yes, for sure. 24 Q Most of them do have it? 25 A Yeah. I use the same equipment, so -- I use that
27 1 a lot. This alarm system is used a lot for monitoring entry 2 doors; monitoring places where people are not supposed to 3 be; monitoring at night, all the pictures -- it's like all 4 over the place. 5 Q Well, what -- 6 A Motion everywhere, to see intruders coming by or 7 drunk guy or somebody trying to break into buildings. 8 Q Well, this certainly -- this camera here would 9 show you anybody trying to break into the Clearwater Bank 10 Building, wouldn't it? 11 A Well, yes. My door on there -- I would definitely 12 saw somebody trying to get in the door. 13 Q The door that's in the bottom left corner of the 14 picture. 15 A Yes. 16 Q What about all the rest of this picture, that goes 17 up into Waterson in front of the trust? That has nothing to 18 do with the security for the bank building. 19 A Well, yes, it does. 20 Q Is that because of people at Lisa McPherson Trust 21 are located there? 22 A That's one big reason, yes. 23 Q Do you have any videos, ever, of anyone from Lisa 24 McPherson Trust committing violence on a Scientology member 25 or property?
28 1 A Yes. Several. 2 Q Where are those? 3 A Well, the videos of Bob Minton punching a staff 4 member by the Ft. Harrison is one. I have them two times. 5 And harassment from other people from Lisa McPherson Trust. 6 Pushing a staff member by the Ft. Harrison. I mean, I 7 have -- I've seen several of those. 8 Q Are there over 200 surveillance cameras operated 9 by the security of the Church of Scientology in downtown 10 Clearwater? 11 A Not that many, no. About a hundred or so. 12 Q How many monitors or so that you monitor? 13 A As I said, about 20 or so. 14 Q And does each monitor have more than one camera 15 attached to it? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What's the maximum? 18 A That varies with the equipment. You get -- some 19 can be four; some could be, you know, 10 or more. 20 THE COURT: You mean your TV screen can be 21 split into 10 segments? 22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. That's, you 23 know, standard. But security tool does that. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Now, this camera that you said cannot be operated
29 1 by remote control, can you go out there and change the angle 2 of that camera? 3 A Physically moving? 4 Q Yes. 5 A Sure. Somebody could go down and move it. 6 Q So you could go and move the camera so it has more 7 of a downward angle just so it can pick up this picture, 8 correct? 9 A I'm not sure -- 10 Pick up what? 11 Q Pick up the door and the telephone. 12 A That's what I have there from that angle. 13 Q And if the camera was moved back further on Church 14 property, it would eliminate anybody going in and out of 15 the -- 16 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dandar -- 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q -- Lisa McPherson Trust. 19 THE COURT: -- I think it's as clear as can be 20 they wanted to monitor it, and they felt they had 21 security reasons to monitor it. That's why I asked 22 the questions I asked. It was clear he was 23 monitoring the movement outside that trust. And 24 that's what was setting off the alarm. 25
30 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Are there any monitors outside that building, the 3 Clearwater Bank Building? 4 A No. 5 Q Are there any signs that say you're on camera? 6 A Not that I know of. 7 Q This videotape, who stored it? 8 A I'm not sure what you mean by storing it. 9 Q Well, are the videotapes stored every day? I 10 mean, you take -- this is like June 12th. And you put it in 11 storage on the videotape? 12 A I store them for a week. 13 I mean, if you're talking about this one 14 specifically, it's different. 15 Q You store the tapes for a week? 16 A Yeah. We hold my -- all my cameras for a week and 17 I circle (sic) through them. I rerecord over them. 18 Q And on this one you didn't do that, obviously. 19 A On this case, no. 20 Q You -- were you told to keep this one? 21 A Well, I saw -- I saw this activity that seemed 22 suspicious to me, so I reported it and -- yeah. I kept it 23 aside. Make it -- hold for our legal department, because a 24 little -- little suspicious. 25 Q Now, how is it that you came to be able to
31 1 identify, on video camera, Bob Minton and John Merrett? 2 A You mean how do I know them? 3 Q Yeah. How did you know who Bob Minton was by 4 looking on the video? 5 A Just by the fact that it moved next to our 6 buildings. They been hundreds of time around our buildings. 7 The whole day sometime. And several incident with the 8 police. Having their name from, you know, several reports, 9 and my senior, my superior, giving me their names. 10 Q Was my name one of those? 11 A Your name? 12 Q Yes. 13 A What do you mean by -- 14 Q Well, did you have my picture or my name to 15 identify me going in and out of the trust? 16 A Not necessarily, no. 17 Q Well -- 18 A That -- I think I saw you a few times there. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, it wouldn't have 20 mattered. I mean, it didn't matter who it was. 21 MR. DANDAR: I know. 22 THE COURT: It monitored. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Do you know who reviewed these particular tapes, 25 August of 2001?
32 1 A I'm not sure what you mean by reviewing them. 2 Q Did Mr. Rinder review these tapes? 3 A I don't know about that. 4 Q And there's no sign outside the building saying 5 not only is there a video camera in operation, but your 6 picture is being recorded on tape. There's no signs, right? 7 A Not that I know of, no. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I don't think we need a sign. Regular security 10 camera that are on buildings. 11 Q The Lisa McPherson Trust opened its doors in 12 December of -- or January of 2000. Do you know if this 13 video camera was up before that? 14 A Yes, it was. 15 Q And did it have an alarm going off if someone came 16 down Waterson sidewalk? 17 A As I say, this is equipment on most of my cameras. 18 I don't recall specifically if I was using it or not, on and 19 off. But I had the option for sure to use -- to use it, and 20 I'm sure I did use it. 21 Q Was this camera up there in '97, when you started 22 security? 23 A I don't know if it was this camera specifically. 24 I remember having one camera there, because we used to have 25 a -- the corner of Waterson and -- I forgot the name of the
33 1 street there. I mean, the next corner. We used to have a 2 bus stop over there picking up hundreds of students to go to 3 the -- to some motels. And I remember having several 4 incident like drunk people, and even had to call the police 5 a few times or whatever. So I didn't -- I don't remember 6 having a camera in that location. 7 Q And that's the corner in the top right-hand corner 8 you're talking about? 9 A Yes. By Jimmy Hall's -- well, another property 10 also over there. 11 Q And are you saying this camera that's in this 12 picture could pick up and provide security for people 13 boarding a bus over here? 14 A Yeah. I mean, I was monitoring -- I was keeping 15 an eye on that, yes. 16 Q If the bus was parked over here, wouldn't it block 17 the entire view? 18 A It was actually further away past that street 19 there. 20 Q The -- are you saying this camera can go past 21 what's depicted in this picture? 22 A In a different position, yeah. You put it up. I 23 mean, you don't see too clearly, you know, far. But you can 24 see it, yes. 25 THE COURT: You know, I think you're getting --
34 1 really, this is just to get this into evidence. 2 MR. DANDAR: I have no further questions. 3 THE COURT: Redirect? 4 MR. FUGATE: Just very briefly, your Honor. 5 I'll make it quick. 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q Mr. Dandar, the attorney here, just asked you if 9 you were able to -- how did you come to identify Mr. Minton 10 and Mr. Merrett. 11 Have you always testified in -- and validated 12 videos in the injunction cases in front of Judge Penick? 13 A Yes, I did. 14 Q And those were the incidents that involved the 15 hitting or fist-fights in front of the Ft. Harrison, among 16 other things? 17 A No. The one I was for was for injunction 18 violation with -- Tory Bezazian. I'm not exactly sure the 19 last name. 20 Q Is that the one where the car drove into the 21 parking garage? 22 A No. She was -- it was a demonstration. 23 Q Well, never mind. We won't take discovery on that 24 either. 25 And the -- there's a question asked about the
35 1 video depicting other incidents like drunks, et cetera. 2 To your knowledge, do the Clearwater Police 3 Department know that these security cameras operate? 4 A Yes. Definitely. I've turned several video 5 evidence to the Clearwater police to help on some incident. 6 Q So the Clearwater Police Department would come to 7 your office to say, "We need -- do you have video of X, Y or 8 Z," and you guys would go back, if you had it, and produce 9 it? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 And they would contact my superior. And then, 12 yes, anything we had that would help the Clearwater Police, 13 we would give on that. Incident involving the church; you 14 know, some -- any criminal activity, anything that could 15 help, yes, we would provide a clip on that. 16 Q And I think you said that you maintained the 17 videos for a period of time and then tape back over them. 18 What period of time is that? 19 A Well, I recall my -- all my cameras monitor for a 20 week. And I -- you know, I circle through them. I can -- I 21 use them again if nothing happened. Now, if there is an 22 incident of importance, like, to turn over to the police, 23 then I would keep this tape aside and make an additional 24 clip to -- to give to them. And if -- you know, something 25 that may be used by legal, then I just, you know, keep it
36 1 longer or keep that tape longer, because -- 2 Q And -- 3 A -- might be in evidence or something, or 4 something. 5 Q And these video clips, did you make a video clip 6 of -- of what we've seen here and provide that to legal, I 7 think you said? 8 A Yes. That's correct. I took -- I made a copy and 9 I gave that to -- to legal. 10 THE COURT: What is legal? 11 MR. DANDAR: Legal department. 12 THE WITNESS: Legal department. 13 THE COURT: Is that part of OSA? Is that 14 legal? 15 MR. FUGATE: I think it is, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. FUGATE: I have no other questions, and I 18 move the tape into evidence. 19 THE COURT: Any objection? 20 MR. DANDAR: No. 21 THE COURT: It'll be -- I guess it'll be 22 received. 23 MR. FUGATE: It's 127, by the way, Madam Clerk, 24 Defendant's Exhibit 127. 25 Your Honor, that's all we have, I guess, till
37 1 Mr. Scriven comes back. 2 MR. DANDAR: What about Ms. Yingling? I mean, 3 she was supposed to be here at 10:00. 4 THE COURT: Well, is Ms. Yingling here? 5 MR. WEINBERG: No. She's not here. She'll -- 6 we're going to put her on at -- as soon as we're 7 done with Mr. Garko, or Dr. Garko. 8 THE COURT: Well, it's 11:20. And this is 9 really not -- 10 I mean, is she here where you could put her on? 11 MR. WEINBERG: She's not here. 12 THE COURT: I know what you want to do, but -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: No, she's not. 14 THE COURT: Well, when is she coming? 15 MR. WEINBERG: She -- she is in Clearwater. 16 THE COURT: So you plan to have her come down 17 this afternoon? How about -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: I will have her come on as soon 19 as Dr. Garko is done. But I think Dr. Garko will 20 take, you know, the better part of the afternoon. 21 THE COURT: Well, does that mean you don't plan 22 to have her here today? 23 I mean, I don't want you directing -- I mean -- 24 I'm going to tell you something -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
38 1 THE COURT: -- Mr. Weinberg. And let's get 2 this straight. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not -- 4 THE COURT: If you finish at 3:00 with 5 Dr. Garko, and you're telling me -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Then Ms. Yingling -- 7 THE COURT: -- you'll bring her when you're 8 ready, I'm going to tell you -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 10 MR. DANDAR: -- you're going to put her on, or 11 you're going to rest. 12 MR. WEINBERG: We'll put her on. 13 THE COURT: Okay. We're just not going to have 14 this. We have these little breaks and what have 15 you. This was somebody that was expected to 16 testify -- 17 I mean, I thought you all were going to rest. 18 Then you decided you were going to call 19 Ms. Yingling. Then, without any knowledge to me -- 20 I thought he was going to put Dr. Garko on -- you 21 decided to call Dr. Garko. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 23 THE COURT: So we need to know, you know, how 24 we're going here, so I get some idea -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
39 1 THE COURT: -- as to when we're going to finish 2 this. I've got this set for trial in August. And 3 if you don't prevail on your motion, I expect to go. 4 And there are depositions that need to be taken -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 6 THE COURT: -- okay? 7 I can't take -- you know, I've got a good 40 8 minutes here now that I'm just going to go sit. 9 It's not enough time for me to do hardly anything. 10 So that's a waste. 11 So I'm telling you, when Dr. Garko is done 12 today, you best have Ms. Yingling -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: She'll be -- 14 THE COURT: -- or else you're not going to use 15 her. 16 MR. WEINBERG: She'll be -- 17 THE COURT: It's just that simple. 18 MR. WEINBERG: She'll be here. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. MOXON: I do have one other matter to bring 21 to the court's attention. 22 THE COURT: I'm going to tell you the same 23 thing, Mr. Dandar. When they're done, you're going 24 to have to line up these witnesses. I've just been 25 about as patient as I can be. You line them up and
40 1 you call one after the other. And you know what? 2 If you don't have one here, then you get back on the 3 stand and we'll finish your testimony. Because 4 we're not done with you yet, right? 5 MR. DANDAR: That's correct. 6 THE COURT: All right. So you can fill in the 7 gaps when it becomes your turn. You can just 8 testify for 20 minutes till your next one and 30 9 minutes till the next one comes or whatever. 10 MR. DANDAR: Would you like me to do something 11 now? 12 THE COURT: Actually not. What I'd really like 13 to do is have the defendants finish their case and 14 then I'd like for you to finish yours. 15 Okay. Go ahead. 16 MR. MOXON: Okay. You had asked about the 17 knowledge -- when we first knew about these checks 18 coming in from abroad. 19 THE COURT: Yes. Yes. 20 MR. MOXON: And I'll hand up to the court 21 defendant's response to the court's inquiry -- 22 THE COURT: Thank you. 23 MR. MOXON: -- which sets forth just basically 24 the details of this, as you'd asked. And I guess 25 that's all there is to say about it. The court can
41 1 read it. 2 THE COURT: I'll just take it with me. That'll 3 give me something to do to fill up my 40 minutes. 4 Although I'm sure I can find some phone calls to 5 return. 6 MR. DANDAR: Would you like the defense to -- 7 maybe we can get ahold of Dr. Garko's counsel, and 8 we'll get back here sooner than 1:00? 9 THE COURT: Well, you know -- no. What I 10 really wanted to do was to work till about 12:00, 11 but we're not going to do that. So we're going to 12 start up however at 1:00. So I assume Dr. Garko and 13 his counsel will be back at 1:00? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: And we'll be in recess till 1. 16 (A recess was taken at 11:23 a.m.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
42 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 11th day of June, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1 1 2 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 5 6 7 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 8 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 9 10 Plaintiff, 11 vs. VOLUME 1 12 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 13 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 14 Defendants. 15 _______________________________________/ 16 17 18 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 19 CONTENTS: Testimony of Michael Garko. 20 DATE: June 11, 2002, morning session. 21 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 22 St. Petersburg, Florida. 23 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 24 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, 25 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorneys for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B 7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 9 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 10 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 11 Organization. 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 17 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 18 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 19 MR. LANSING C. SCRIVEN 20 442 W Kennedy Blvd Ste 280 Tampa Florida 33606-1464 21 Attorney for Michael Garko. 22 23 24 25
3 1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 MICHAEL GARKO 8 11 DIRECT Mr. Weinberg 9 22 4 Recess 41 12 Reporter's Certificate 42 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
4 1 (The proceedings resumed at 9:27 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Good morning. 3 Okay. The matter that Mr. Howie brought up 4 yesterday regarding a one-page -- page 6, I guess, 5 to Mr. Jonas's notes -- I really can't resolve that 6 without speaking to Mr. Howie. Obviously, I can't 7 do it on the record. It would destroy what he's 8 asked. So I'm asking permission from both sides to 9 have an in camera hearing with Mr. Howie, alone, off 10 the record, to ask him a couple questions about this 11 one page. 12 Any objection? 13 MR. LIROT: No objection, your Honor. 14 MR. WEINBERG: No objection. 15 THE COURT: All right. We'll do that when he 16 comes. So other than that, the notes have been made 17 part of the record, and I'll address that one issue 18 at the right time. 19 Madam Clerk, here are a couple things. I 20 think -- this is the fourth affidavit. 21 What is -- this fourth affidavit; that's just 22 been filed. That's not been yet made an exhibit in 23 this hearing, has it? 24 MR. DANDAR: That's correct. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. It's part of the record,
5 1 but -- 2 THE COURT: It's part of the record, but it's 3 not an exhibit in this hearing. I assume somebody 4 will make it an exhibit at some time. But it's -- 5 just for now, it can just go in that section, "other 6 things," but not in evidence. 7 This is in evidence. This is the third 8 affidavit. But I think I have another one that's 9 all marked up. And if I do, that one -- I don't 10 need it. 11 THE CLERK: Okay. 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I have yesterday -- 13 well, no. I have June 7th, morning and afternoon 14 session. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Great. Thank you. 16 Yesterday I noted that the document called The 17 Missing Ingredient, which is an HCO policy letter -- 18 I show that in evidence, but I know that the 19 policy -- I'm probably saying this wrong -- HCO 20 bulletin, Search and Discovery, is not in evidence 21 yet. Is that right? 22 Okay. Madam Clerk -- 23 THE CLERK: Yes, ma'am. 24 THE COURT: -- these then are evidence. Keep 25 those out. I'm sure we'll be using it. This will
6 1 go in the not-evidence. Might be moved, might not. 2 But you know, that section you're keeping for me. 3 Do you want to deal with this filing? You 4 indicated yesterday you objected. 5 MR. DANDAR: I don't know what it is, Judge. 6 What -- 7 THE COURT: It's the -- it's the filing that 8 dealt with anti-Scientology Internet sites supported 9 by the estate. 10 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I -- I object to that. 11 THE COURT: I'm not sure really, in light of 12 how they've done it, how you can object. It's a 13 filing. In other words, it's not yet in evidence. 14 It's -- 15 MR. DANDAR: Oh -- 16 THE COURT: -- a filing. 17 MR. DANDAR: Oh, no. 18 THE COURT: Right. 19 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. I object to the evidence 20 part. 21 THE COURT: Well, it's not in evidence. 22 MR. DANDAR: Right. 23 THE COURT: Well, I show this as a filing, and 24 there's no objections to a filing. 25 MR. DANDAR: Right. Right.
7 1 THE COURT: Okay. Now, the one last thing I 2 had was the little booklet which I show marked as 3 184, The Way to Happiness? 4 MR. MOXON: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Was this introduced? 6 MR. MOXON: Yes, it was. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, it was. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Madam Clerk, I don't know 9 how you're going to deal with that, an envelope or 10 whatever, but that's in evidence. 11 And with that, I'm ready. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Dr. Michael Garko. 13 THE COURT: What's the deal here? We're going 14 to have him on for how long? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Scriven -- who -- this is 16 Lance Scriven -- is his lawyer. And Mr. Scriven has 17 advised me, when I subpoenaed Dr. Garko yesterday, 18 that he has an 11:00 hearing in Clearwater, which 19 means he'll have to leave sometime between 10:15 and 20 10:30. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know how long it takes 23 to drive there. 24 It's not an excessively long hearing. 25 THE COURT: Come on, Dr. Garko, you step up
8 1 here. 2 MR. WEINBERG: He'll be back at 1:00 or so. 3 THE COURT: All right. So then we'll put 4 Dr. Garko on in the afternoon? 5 MR. WEINBERG: And we -- back on to finish. 6 And we have a fill-in -- a relatively short -- 7 fill-in witness we can go right to right after 8 Dr. -- right after Mr. Scriven leaves. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 _______________________________________ 11 MICHAEL GARKO, 12 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 13 and testified as follows: 14 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, for the record, 15 Dr. Garko has been the trial consultant for a number 16 of years, and as a result, we would consider him an 17 adverse witness, and I would like some latitude if 18 necessary with regard to cross examining him. I 19 don't know if that'll be necessary, but if it is 20 necessary, I will ask that latitude. 21 MR. DANDAR: And as a trial consultant, we are 22 invoking work product, attorney-client privilege on 23 all matters unless it occurred with third parties 24 outside the trial team. 25 THE COURT: And that naturally is not waived.
9 1 However, I may -- you know, you may have to pipe up 2 an objection. 3 But you understand what he's saying? 4 MR. WEINBERG: I do. And I told Mr. Dandar 5 before that my questions I think are all limited to 6 Mr. Minton, and his communications -- 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. WEINBERG: -- with him. 9 THE COURT: And so those should not involve 10 work product. 11 MR. WEINBERG: It should not. 12 THE COURT: But Mr. Dandar, you listen 13 carefully, because this is going to be for you to 14 raise. 15 As far as his being an adverse witness, I think 16 it would go without saying that he would be 17 considered, under the rules, a witness you can lead, 18 so you may ask leading questions. 19 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 20 THE COURT: That's really all that is all 21 about. 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q You are here under subpoena today, Dr. Garko? 25 A That's correct.
10 1 Q Okay. And how are you employed? 2 Well, can you state and spell your name for the 3 record? 4 A Sure. My name is Michael Garko, M-i-c-h-a-e-l, 5 G-a-r-k-o. 6 Q And how are you employed? 7 A I'm self-employed. 8 Q In what kind of business? 9 A I am a -- I'm president of a trial and jury 10 consultant firm called Trial Strategies, Inc., based in 11 Tampa, Florida. 12 Q And how long have you had that business? 13 A I've been a trial consultant about seven, eight 14 years, I guess. The company was incorporated maybe four or 15 five years ago, somewhere in there. 16 Q Can you briefly tell us what your educational 17 background is? 18 A Okay. I have a bachelor's degree in humanities 19 from the University of South Florida. I have a bachelor's 20 degree in mass communications with a speciality in public 21 relations from USF. I have a master's degree in 22 communication. And I have a PhD in communication theory and 23 research from Florida State University, which was awarded in 24 1988. 25 Q Now, Dr. Garko, prior to having your trial
11 1 consultant business, were you a professor at -- at USF? 2 A I was. 3 Q And how long were you there and what did you -- 4 A I -- I had a relationship with USF beginning in 5 1978 as a graduate student. When I left -- when I got my 6 degree, when I was awarded my master's degree, I left and 7 went to Florida State and returned to USF as an adjunct 8 professor, and continued to work on my dissertation. So 9 that would have taken me all the way from, you know, 1978, 10 with a hiatus at Florida State -- I would say I was at USF 11 maybe eight, nine years -- 12 Q Okay. 13 A -- somewhere in there. 14 Q Did there come a time when you were engaged as a 15 trial consultant or the trial consultant for the plaintiff 16 in the Lisa McPherson case? 17 A I was. 18 Q And do you know approximately when that was? 19 A Somewhere in 19 -- maybe end of '98, beginning of 20 '99, somewhere in there. 21 Q Okay. Now, Dr. Garko, did you meet with Ken 22 Dandar, Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton, in Mr. Dandar's office 23 in the fall of 1999, where the adding of David Miscavige to 24 the case, to the wrongful death case, was discussed? 25 A Yes.
12 1 Q Where did that meeting take place? 2 A In Mr. Dandar's office. 3 Q Who was present at that meeting? 4 A Well -- 5 Q Well, who was present for the discussion that you 6 just -- 7 A Okay. I would not consider it a meeting. 8 And this is a different interaction than is 9 outlined in Mr. Minton's affidavit. 10 But present were myself, Mr. Dandar, Ms. Brooks 11 and Mr. Minton. And Jesse Prince was not there, as alleged 12 in Mr. -- in Mr. Minton's affidavit. 13 Q Okay. Where did the meeting -- where did this -- 14 what would you describe -- 15 A I would describe it as -- 16 Well, if I give you some context, Mr. Minton and 17 Ms. Brooks came by Mr. Dandar's office. They did that from 18 time to time. They came by, it was like a visit. And we 19 sat in the conference room, talking casually about various 20 things. And I wouldn't consider it a formal meeting with 21 some driven agenda, you know, with some specific purpose in 22 mind. It was just a conversation. 23 Q Okay. 24 THE COURT: What did you say, with no driven 25 agenda?
13 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. No -- no agenda, no formal 2 agenda, no, you know, pre- -- pre-set agenda; that 3 this was a scheduled meeting and we were going to 4 discuss some sort of trial strategy or issue. 5 THE COURT: That was not -- 6 THE WITNESS: That was not -- 7 THE COURT: -- what you perceived this. 8 THE WITNESS: That's right. I just viewed it, 9 your Honor, as a -- a visit, and we were having a 10 conversation in Mr. Dandar's conference room. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q Now, tell us what was discussed, as you best can 14 recall, in the presence of Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar, about 15 whether or not to add David Miscavige as a defendant. 16 A The thing that I recall most prominently -- and I 17 don't know how this topic was introduced, but Mr. Miscavige 18 came up, and the issue of adding Mr. Miscavige as a 19 defendant in the wrongful death case. I do recall at one 20 point where I gave, for lack of a better term, a speech, 21 sort of, articulating my view, which was not to add David 22 Miscavige; that I thought it was a bad idea. 23 And we -- at that point in time, Mr. Miscavige -- 24 we had already gone to court and approached Judge Moody with 25 a motion to add him. I think that motion was denied. I am
14 1 not sure whether we were past the second motion where 2 Mr. Miscavige was -- 3 THE COURT: Hang on just a second. What is 4 that? What's happening? 5 THE BAILIFF: I think it's percussive sounds 6 from the microphone. 7 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 8 THE WITNESS: Am I too close? 9 THE BAILIFF: Yes. 10 THE COURT: I thought maybe somebody was 11 banging on the ceiling. 12 A And I'm not sure if at that point in time, when I 13 was articulating my displeasure with this, Mr. Miscavige had 14 been added or Judge Moody gave permission. But it was 15 somewhere between the first motion and the second motion 16 perhaps. 17 But I -- I expressed my view that it was a bad 18 idea to do it. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Now, tell us what you said in your speech about 21 why it was a bad idea to add Mr. Miscavige. 22 MR. DANDAR: Objection. 23 THE COURT: What? 24 MR. DANDAR: Work product. 25 THE COURT: Can't do it 'cause Mr. Minton was
15 1 there. So overruled. 2 MR. DANDAR: Oh, all right. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q Mr. Minton was there -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- correct? 7 A Yes, he was. 8 Q And Mr. Dandar was there. 9 A Yes, he was. 10 Q Tell us what you said, the reason for it. 11 A I can't give you my exact words. I can give you 12 the three reasons that I always articulated. 13 One, that I didn't believe there was enough 14 evidence for, to use the metaphor, a smoking gun to add 15 Mr. Miscavige as a defendant, given the fifth amended 16 complaint or the fourth amended complaint, and the idea that 17 he knew about Lisa McPherson being in the hotel and gave the 18 order to just let her die. The only evidence that existed 19 at the time, or evidence that would come into existence, 20 would be the affidavit of Jesse Prince. But I expressed the 21 view that there wasn't a letter, an e-mail or witness who 22 had firsthand knowledge about Mr. Miscavige's intentions. 23 So I felt that was reason number one. 24 Reason number two -- 25 THE COURT: Wait a second now. You didn't
16 1 believe there was enough evidence for a smoking gun? 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 3 THE COURT: What is that? You're talking 4 evidence -- 5 THE WITNESS: Right. I -- yes, your Honor. I 6 didn't -- when I say smoking gun, I mean there 7 wasn't a letter, for example, from Mr. Miscavige to 8 somebody at the Ft. Harrison, saying, "Let Lisa 9 McPherson die." And I felt that without that kind 10 of evidence, that it was imprudent to add 11 Mr. Miscavige. 12 A Second reason was that I didn't think we would be 13 able to -- to serve Mr. Miscavige. Would be difficult to 14 find him and to serve him. 15 I'm trying to think of the third reason. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Did it have anything to do with the -- the reason 18 that Judge Moody denied it the first time around, the 19 contract? 20 A Oh, that's right. 21 At some point, Mr. Dandar advised me and -- 22 MR. DANDAR: Wait. Wait. "At some point." He 23 can only talk if it's in the presence of another 24 party. 25 THE COURT: That's right. So if it's at some
17 1 other point -- 2 THE WITNESS: All right. 3 THE COURT: -- anything that went on between 4 you -- 5 THE WITNESS: All right. 6 THE COURT: -- and Mr. Dandar cannot be talked 7 about. 8 A There was a contract or an agreement between 9 Mr. Dandar and the Church of Scientology not to add parties. 10 I'm not a lawyer. I didn't -- I couldn't advise 11 him as to how that contract could be circumvented. But I 12 felt it was a legal impediment, and for that reason I 13 thought it was problematic to add Mr. Miscavige. 14 So those are the three reasons that I gave along 15 the way, and that day, as to why Mr. Miscavige should not be 16 added. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Did Ms. Brooks say anything that you can recall 19 during the meeting? 20 A Yes. And this is why I remembered this particular 21 interaction. 22 Because as soon as I had finished articulating my 23 position, Ms. Brooks piped up without hesitation and said, 24 "And why did you add him, Ken?" And I remember sort of 25 sitting back and thinking, if I may, "What the hell is she
18 1 doing?" Because it was Ms. Brooks's idea to add David 2 Miscavige. And I was puzzled as to why she said that. And 3 I -- I often thought of it after this interaction. I 4 thought -- I was just bewildered by that and I couldn't 5 understand it. 6 Q Do you recall what if anything Mr. Minton said or 7 did during this meeting? 8 A He didn't say too much, in his very typical 9 fashion. He was quiet, somewhat aloof, and just sort of sat 10 there. He was sitting to my right at the end of the table, 11 just listening, and didn't say much. 12 Q Where do you remember the people were? You just 13 described where Mr. Minton was. Where was -- where were 14 you, Mr. Dandar, and Ms. Brooks? 15 A I was sitting at the head of the table. 16 Mr. Minton was to my right toward the end of the table. 17 Ms. Brooks was sitting to my left toward the middle of the 18 table. And Ken was sitting to my left -- immediate left, 19 sort of in the corner of the table. 20 Q Is this -- which office was this in? 21 A It was in Mr. -- Mr. Dandar's office on Kennedy 22 Boulevard. 23 Q So that's -- that's the new -- the newer office -- 24 and that's the new -- 25 A That was the office that was moved into after he
19 1 had -- we left his two-story office building, that he had 2 sold. 3 Q Now, was there -- do you recall any discussions 4 about funding during this meeting that Mr. Minton and 5 Mr. Dandar and you and Ms. Brooks were at? 6 A I do. 7 Q Tell us about those. 8 A I didn't have much access to Mr. Minton, and I -- 9 that was by design. From my point of view, I felt it was 10 improper for me to try to communicate with him without the 11 permission of Mr. Dandar or without -- without Mr. Dandar 12 being present. So anytime Mr. Minton was around or the 13 opportunity availed itself, I would try to do my best in an 14 indirect way to persuade him to continue to fund the case. 15 And that particular day, I recall mentioning to 16 him that it was necessary for us to be doing certain things 17 in the case, and that would require funding, and if he could 18 just, you know, sort of keep that in the back of his mind. 19 And I was trying to just sort of apprise him of the need for 20 the case to be funded. And that was my polite way of asking 21 him to continue to fund the case. 22 Q Do you remember any particular projects that you 23 had discussed with Mr. Minton? 24 A My recollection -- there were a couple of things I 25 might have mentioned. I think I mentioned a accident
20 1 reconstruction that we wanted to do, I believe. I think 2 I -- I mentioned that. And possibly some jury research in 3 the future. 4 And it was just by way of giving him some idea 5 that, you know, the money is being used to fund projects, 6 not -- and it was important for him to continue to fund the 7 case, 'cause it was necessary. 8 Q In fact, the accident reconstruction was done 9 during 2000, wasn't it? 10 A I believe it was, yes. 11 Q Now, do you have a good recollection of this 12 discussion that you've just described, where Mr. Minton, 13 Ms. Brooks and yourself, along with Mr. Dandar, were 14 present? 15 A I have a recollection of those two things that 16 I -- about which I just testified: That is, the -- my -- my 17 argument as to why we should not add David Miscavige, and my 18 attempt to persuade Mr. Minton to continue funding the case. 19 Other than that, I don't have much of a recollection of 20 anything else. That meeting was -- I -- it was casual. You 21 know, again, it was casual. 22 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Minton 23 in Mr. Dandar's presence where Mr. Minton talked in terms of 24 utilizing the services of Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks more in 25 the case?
21 1 A Not to any great extent that I can recall. 2 Maybe -- maybe Mr. Minton might have mentioned something 3 like, you know, "You should try to use Stacy and Jesse 4 more," or something like that. But beyond that, I never 5 heard any exchange between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar about 6 how he should use Jesse or Stacy per Mr. Minton's 7 instructions. I never heard any kind of interaction like 8 that. 9 Q Are you privy to -- were you privy to Mr. Dandar's 10 telephone conversations with -- with Mr. Minton? 11 A Sometimes I was, sometimes I wasn't. I mean, just 12 depends. 13 Mr. Dandar, for the most part, spoke pretty freely 14 in front of me. I think he trusted me pretty explicitly. 15 And he would have conversations with Mr. Minton from time to 16 time on the phone, not -- at least in my presence. Not all 17 the time or very often, but -- and there were other times 18 I'm sure he spoke with him outside of my presence. 19 Q Did you ever -- were you ever at the LMT offices 20 with Mr. Dandar when you -- when you all visited with 21 Mr. Minton? 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What was that question 23 again? 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q Were you ever at the LMT, the Lisa McPherson Trust
22 1 offices over in Clearwater, with Mr. Dandar, when you all 2 were -- you visited with Mr. Minton? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And during any of those discussions, did the -- 5 did it ever come up, that you can recall, that you all 6 should be utilizing Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks more? 7 A I don't have a clear recollection of that or -- 8 not that I can remember. 9 Q Now, fast-forwarding, did you meet with Mr. Minton 10 and Ms. Brooks, along with Mr. Dandar, in New Hampshire in 11 February of this year? 12 A I did. 13 Q What was the purpose of that trip? 14 A I know what my purpose was. 15 Q What was your purpose of that trip? 16 A To persuade Mr. Minton to continue to fund the 17 case. 18 Q Okay. Why did you go? 19 A Because Mr. Dandar -- 20 This may be privileged. 21 I went because I felt I could assist Mr. Dandar in 22 trying to persuade Mr. Minton to continue to fund the case. 23 At that point in time, I viewed the case to be in 24 sort of -- lack of a better way of expressing it, financial 25 desperation, and I wanted to go to try and persuade
23 1 Mr. Minton to continue to fund the case. I felt that I had 2 some credibility with him. I believed that he, to some 3 extent, respected me and trusted me. I never gave him a 4 reason not to. So I felt that I could try and persuade him. 5 Q How long were you in New Hampshire? 6 A We were there two days, I think. A Saturday and a 7 Sunday. 8 Q Can you describe for us what occurred in New 9 Hampshire on the first day? 10 A Mr. Dandar and I arrived at the airport. 11 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks picked us up. We drove to a 12 supermarket, did some shopping, get things for dinner. We 13 then went to Mr. Minton's home, unloaded the truck. And we 14 then went and sat in the kitchen and began just to have, you 15 know, casual conversations. 16 Q And did something memorable occur that first 17 evening? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Can you describe what -- what occurred? 20 A I recall sitting at the kitchen table with 21 Mr. Dandar. And Mr. Minton was sitting off to my left in a 22 chair by himself. And all of a sudden, he began, in a very 23 emotional way, talking to Mr. Dandar and saying things that 24 I -- were a bit startling to me. 25 Q Tell us what he said, and how -- how he was
24 1 acting. 2 A He looked at Mr. Dandar -- and you know -- and my 3 recollection is this sort of came out of the blue, too. I 4 mean, that's why it caught me off guard. 5 He looked at Mr. Dandar and said that in 6 essence -- I -- I don't know exactly his words, but the 7 message was, "I don't trust you; I don't trust the estate; I 8 don't trust Dell Liebreich. You have betrayed me," in 9 essence. And continued to become more and more emotional to 10 the extent that he began weeping, and was going on about 11 that he can't do this anymore; that it was too much pressure 12 on him and his family. 13 And I became very concerned. And he -- he -- as 14 he continued to talk, he became more and more emotional, and 15 started -- I don't know -- to -- looked like he was falling 16 apart, which prompted me to get up. I went over and held 17 him. And I started to get choked up because I -- I was 18 moved by his pain. I mean, he -- this was a man in a lot of 19 emotional pain. And I didn't know, you know, I -- really, 20 what to do other than to try and calm him down and keep my 21 composure. 22 And he did. 23 And Mr. Dandar, of course, became upset and 24 concerned and asked Mr. Minton, "What are you talking about? 25 What do you mean?"
25 1 Q And what did Mr. Minton say? Did he explain what 2 he was so upset about? 3 A He went on about -- there are two things that come 4 to mind. One, that this was -- that Scientology, the Church 5 of Scientology had put a lot of pressure on him and he was 6 now caught up in a lot of litigation, and that was just too 7 much for him to deal with. 8 And the other thing that really was at the heart 9 of the matter, at least as I -- I see it, was, on the 10 Internet, there was this personal attack on Mr. Minton by 11 these various individuals, whom I do not know. And their 12 names were mentioned at the time and I didn't know them. I 13 don't know these people. I don't read -- I never go to the 14 Internet and read these posts. 15 Q Was one of the names Deana Holmes? 16 A That sounds familiar. 17 Q And did Patricia Greenway's name come up? 18 A It did. 19 Q Go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt. 20 A And he went on about -- Mr. Minton went on about 21 how he felt betrayed that this attack was being launched 22 against him, and he was holding Ken responsible for that. 23 He said that these people were doing this at his behest. 24 And Mr. Dandar told him that was not the case, and insisted 25 that was not the case, and tried to convince him of that.
26 1 And Mr. Minton just kept going on and on about 2 that. He felt -- he said that -- you know, all these 3 horrible things that were being said about him were not 4 true, and it was causing him great emotional pain. 5 That's not his -- those are his -- those are not 6 his words, but that's how I interpreted the sum and 7 substance of his communication or his interaction with me 8 and Mr. Dandar. 9 Both Mr. Dandar and I were upset to see him upset. 10 Q Did he express the opinion that these attacks were 11 being initiated by Mr. Dandar in order to force him to give 12 more funding? Was that the message? 13 A If you read between the lines, you would -- you 14 would -- you would walk away with that. 15 You know, there was a great deal of concern about 16 funding for this case, and it was on my mind all the time. 17 I mean, I was preoccupied. It was almost a distraction. 18 So -- the answer to your question is, yeah. 19 Q Did he calm down eventually? 20 A He -- yes. He eventually calmed down. 21 I remember standing there. And I put my arms 22 around him. And he was weeping. And you know, I -- I just 23 tried to say to him, "Everything's going to be okay. You 24 know, it's going to be all right," and "Just," you know, 25 "just try to," you know, "take a breath and pull yourself
27 1 together." And he did. 2 Q Do you recall -- 3 And then you all had dinner, I take it? 4 A Yeah. Ms. Brooks -- it was a pretty good 5 dinner -- made a nice dinner. We were -- sat -- we remained 6 in the kitchen. She continued to work at the -- at the 7 counter there, kitchen counter or by the sink. And she was 8 doing whatever -- she made a lovely dinner for us. 9 Q Now, do you recall any discussions that first 10 evening, after Mr. Minton calmed down, about whether he 11 would give more money? 12 A I believe that evening or the next morning -- and 13 I'm unclear about this. And I remember this because I had 14 this terrible sinking feeling when he said it. He was 15 sitting at the dining room table at this time. And he 16 looked -- I was sitting right across from him. And Mr. 17 Dandar and he were talking about funding the case. 18 And Mr. Minton looked at him and said, without 19 hesitation and very, very succinctly, "I am not going to 20 fund this case anymore." 21 Q Now, the next day -- whether that conversation was 22 the next morning or that night, after that conversation, do 23 you recall, on the second day that Mr. Dandar went over the 24 Fifth Amendment -- the questions that Mr. Minton had taken 25 the Fifth Amendment on?
28 1 A Yes. Those -- 2 Are you referring to the questions that Judge 3 Schaeffer ordered Mr. Minton to answer? 4 Q Yes. There was 80-some-odd questions. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now, how did it come about that Mr. Dandar sat 7 down with Mr. Minton to discuss what his answers would be to 8 these questions that he had taken the Fifth Amendment on? 9 A I'm unclear about that. I'm not sure how we 10 actually got into the living room to do -- to talk about 11 that and to engage in that process. 12 I think Mr. Minton -- I think how it got -- became 13 initiated was Mr. Minton was expressing a lot of concern 14 again -- I mean, this was a theme that was developed over 15 the two days; the theme being that Mr. Minton was feeling 16 overwhelmed with the litigation, the various litigations 17 that he became implicated in, and that he felt burdened to 18 try and answer -- you know, to deal with all these 19 depositions and hearings and court cases. And he kept going 20 over that. 21 And I think the issue of him having to deal with 22 this particular set of questions that Judge Schaeffer 23 ordered him to answer came up, and either I or Mr. Dandar or 24 both of us said, "Well, let's go over the questions." I 25 mean, "Let's talk about the questions. Let's see what it is
29 1 that, you know, you're so concerned about that you had to 2 take the Fifth Amendment." 3 Q Did you all have the questions with you? 4 A I don't think -- no. I think Mr. Minton had the 5 questions. 6 Q Okay. And was there -- before -- I mean, was 7 there a discussion with Mr. Minton by you -- 8 You were there when this process was going on? 9 A I was there for most of it. There were three or 10 four times when -- I know I remember going to the kitchen to 11 get something to eat, coming back in. I went back out to 12 get something else to eat or drink, made some tea. I think 13 I went to the bathroom twice. But I was -- and I remember 14 standing by the fireplace. But I think I was there for 15 the -- the majority of the process. 16 Q All right. Now, was there a discussion with 17 Mr. Minton as to whether it would be more appropriate for 18 him to be meeting with his own lawyer to discuss what his 19 answers would be to questions he had asserted the Fifth 20 Amendment on? 21 A I don't recall that. I do recall saying something 22 else that -- and I -- Mr. Dandar and I both said something 23 about Mr. Minton needed better legal counsel, and that he 24 needed to have lawyers that would represent him better in 25 court. Because you know, the position that he was in now
30 1 was certainly problematic for him. And I just felt that -- 2 and Mr. Dandar felt the same way; that he needed better 3 lawyers. 4 Q At that point, his lawyer was Mr. Merrett -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- down in Florida? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And did you all give some recommendations to 9 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks as to lawyers that they could hire 10 in Florida? 11 A I think Mr. Dandar had two good recommendations. 12 Q And those were? 13 A Mr. Howie and Mr. McGowan, I believe his name is. 14 Q Now -- 15 A And I -- Mr. Weinberg, I'm not sure if Mr. Dandar 16 gave those recommendations there at that -- at that time or 17 if that occurred subsequently, when -- after we got home. 18 But I think it was the latter. But that ultimately 19 happened. 20 And Mr. Dandar gave, in my opinion, good advice to 21 Mr. Minton. 22 Q Now, do you recall a series of questions that 23 Mr. Minton had taken the Fifth Amendment on, concerning 24 funds that were transferred from -- on Operation Clambake to 25 the LMT?
31 1 A I -- I -- yes, I have a -- I have a recollection. 2 Q All right. And -- and do you recall when you all 3 went over -- Mr. Dandar went over those questions with 4 Mr. Minton, what Mr. Minton's response was as to the source 5 of the funds? 6 A I have a vague recollection. 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm kind of confused. 8 These are questions that are being discussed up in 9 New Hampshire that he had taken the Fifth Amendment 10 on? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 12 THE COURT: And I had compelled him to answer? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Could I approach? 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 MR. WEINBERG: This is Defense Exhibit 154 18 which is in evidence. It's the -- it's the motion 19 with the questions. And then you did an order 20 ordering to answer the questions. 21 THE COURT: Right. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q But if I could just show you, Dr. Garko, do you 24 remember having something like this, where the questions 25 were -- do you know if this is the pleading you all had?
32 1 A I don't know. Mr. Dandar had a document, and I 2 believe Mr. Minton gave Mr. Dandar the document, and 3 Mr. Dandar was reading the questions -- 4 Q On page -- 5 A -- to -- 6 Q I'm sorry. 7 On page 11 of this document, there is a question, 8 "Do you know what the source of Operation Clambake funds --" 9 A Yes. 10 Q And -- and -- 11 A Do I recall the answer to that? 12 Q Yes. 13 A I don't. 14 Q Do you recall any discussion about -- 15 Well, tell us what you do recall. 16 A I just recall -- well, there's two things I 17 recall. 18 Number one -- 19 THE COURT: What number is that, just so I have 20 it? 21 MR. WEINBERG: 154. It's Defense Exhibit 1 -- 22 THE COURT: I mean is there a number in the -- 23 MR. FUGATE: Question -- 24 THE COURT: -- question number? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm sorry. Hold on. I've
33 1 got to go back to the page. I think I said 7, but 2 let me look. 3 7. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Page 11. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 A Two things I recall about the process and about 8 the questions generally, is I felt that, as I listened to 9 Mr. Minton give his responses to the questions, I -- I was 10 sort of confused as to why he would ever plead the Fifth 11 Amendment on them, because I felt his responses were rather 12 benign, and I was perplexed as to, why would he take the 13 Fifth? 14 With respect to money, I just recall Mr. Minton at 15 one point -- Mr. Dandar read a question. I don't recall 16 which question it was. But Mr. Minton -- it dealt with who 17 was the source of some particular funds. And Mr. Minton 18 gave an answer like -- some peculiar answer, like the fat 19 man or something like that. And I'm thinking to myself, 20 "What the hell is that?" You know, "Who's the fat man?" 21 And Mr. Dandar looked at Mr. Minton and said something to 22 the effect, you know, "Bob, come on. You can't -- that's an 23 inappropriate answer. You can't give that kind of answer to 24 the court. I mean, you've got to give a better answer than 25 that."
34 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q Was there any response from Mr. Minton? 3 A He said something -- I don't remember what it was. 4 But Mr. Dandar proceeded through the questions, would ask 5 the question, and Mr. Minton would give the answer. It took 6 a while for that to happen. But you know, Mr. Dandar 7 didn't -- 8 I'm moving beyond the scope of your question. 9 I'll stop. 10 Q Did -- do you know how long -- do you have an 11 estimate as to how long you all spent, or Mr. Dandar spent 12 with Mr. Minton that morning, going over the questions? 13 A 45 minutes, 50 minutes. Maybe somewhere in there. 14 An hour on the outside. 15 'Cause you know, we had -- as I said, I went in 16 the kitchen, got something to eat. And it wasn't this sort 17 of relentless, "We're going to go through this." It was 18 more relaxed than that. So it took a while. And it was -- 19 Q And where did you all do this? 20 A In Mr. Minton's living room. 21 Q And was Ms. Brooks present or not? 22 A She was. 23 Q Now, during that -- 24 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Just one quick 25 question.
35 1 MR. WEINBERG: Sure. 2 THE COURT: Was she there continuously, or like 3 you, in and out, if you remember? 4 THE WITNESS: If I -- your Honor, I -- I think 5 that she may have gotten up maybe once or twice 6 perhaps to go to the restroom, I think, but she was 7 there most of the time. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Did you -- during this weekend, particularly the 11 second day, you know, after the emotional episode with 12 Mr. Minton and -- 13 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. I don't 14 know who this is. 15 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. That's Mr. Thomas 16 Haverty. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. I should have 19 announced that to the court. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q During -- during this time that you were there in 23 New Hampshire, did you overhear any discussions or 24 conversations between Mr. Dandar and Mr. Minton about money, 25 about getting more money and where the money might be coming
36 1 from? And if so, can you tell us what you remember was 2 being said and what your reaction was to it? 3 A I do remember conversations about money and 4 funding. 5 Mr. Dandar -- despite Mr. Minton's assertion that 6 he's no longer going to fund this case, Mr. Dandar still 7 wanted to know if there were other ways to fund the case, 8 and if there were other people that could fund the case. 9 And they were talking about -- talking about that. No 10 specific names were mentioned, no particular individual that 11 I could say, Mr. Jones or Mr. Smith or something like that. 12 It was generally perhaps people from Europe might be able to 13 fund the case -- 14 Q Any first names mentioned? 15 A Not that I recall, first name. 16 Q How about Fred? 17 A Maybe. I think that might have been mentioned. 18 Q And did you -- when you -- 19 THE COURT: What is that, a maybe? Maybe -- 20 THE WITNESS: I think -- I think -- I think 21 Fred was mentioned, yes. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q Did you believe at that point, you know, as you 24 were leaving New Hampshire, that there was going to be any 25 more money come?
37 1 A I was pretty despondent about that. I -- the sum 2 and substance of the weekend, Mr. Minton's demeanor, his 3 assertion that he was not going to fund the case anymore, I 4 left New Hampshire thinking, "That's it. It's done." 5 Q Did you -- did you know, in March of 2002, that 6 Mr. Minton sent by mail a $250,000 UBS Swiss check to 7 Mr. Dandar? Did you know that? 8 A No, I didn't. 9 Q Did you know that, in May of 2000, that Mr. Minton 10 handed to Mr. Dandar a $500,000 UBS Swiss check? Did you 11 know that? 12 A No, I didn't. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Now -- you know, your Honor, 14 it's 10:15. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sort of at a breaking point. 17 I've got more, but I'm at a natural break. I know 18 Mr. Scriven said he had to go at 10:15, so -- 19 THE COURT: All right. Let's go ahead and 20 stop. 21 You may step down. You are on the stand. That 22 means that you are not free to talk to anyone about 23 this case or what you're testifying about. And that 24 includes your lawyer. And that includes any lawyer 25 from this side and any lawyer from this side.
38 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: You are on the stand. You can't 3 talk to anybody, as I said, including your own 4 lawyer, all right? 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. You may step down. 7 MR. SCRIVEN: What time should we return? 8 THE COURT: I'm going to say 1:00, but most of 9 the time I end up breaking till 1:30. But -- 10 MR. SCRIVEN: We'll be here at 1. 11 THE COURT: -- yesterday I started up at 12 quarter to 1. So I'd say if you're here at 1, 13 you'll either be on time or you'll be early. And 14 that's better than being late, so -- 15 MR. SCRIVEN: Okay. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Fugate's prepared to call 17 the next witness we have. I think we should be able 18 to get done before Mr. Scriven gets back. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Let me make just a -- finish 20 up with a little note that I'm making before you 21 call your next witness. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Do you mind if I step out for a 23 minute while you -- 24 THE COURT: I do not. 25 I have one more note to make, and I want to
39 1 make it before I forget. 2 Okay. 3 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, this is going to be 4 the security officer to validate the video clips. 5 And it may take a minute to set it up. It's a 6 little early to take a morning break, but if you 7 want to -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. What are we 9 going to have? 10 MR. FUGATE: This is -- Defendant's Exhibit 11 Number 127; remember the video clips of stuff going 12 in or going out of the LMT? It was -- 13 THE COURT: Oh. 14 MR. FUGATE: -- put in subject to the security 15 person coming to verify that he made the videos and 16 et cetera. 17 And I'd say this will take -- if we play the 18 videos, it'll take about 25 minutes or so. 19 THE COURT: But it's going to take a little 20 while so you want me to take a little break? Is 21 that what you're saying? 22 MR. FUGATE: If you don't mind -- I'll just 23 make sure we've got it set up. 24 MR. DANDAR: Are these the videos we already 25 saw?
40 1 THE COURT: I think so. 2 MR. FUGATE: If you don't want to see them 3 again, I'll -- 4 MR. DANDAR: I don't. 5 MR. FUGATE: -- have him validate it, but -- 6 Whatever the court -- 7 THE COURT: I guess what he's saying is 8 before -- he's calling this person to validate that 9 these are the videos he took, and I guess when he 10 took them. 11 Weren't there dates on them? 12 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 13 THE COURT: And if you're willing to concede 14 that, then he doesn't even need to call the witness. 15 MR. DANDAR: I'd like him to get up there and 16 explain to us the alarm -- 17 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 18 MR. DANDAR: -- that goes on the bottom left 19 corner. 20 THE COURT: Okay. But you're saying he doesn't 21 need to see -- normally before someone can validate 22 something he has to play it and say, "Did you take 23 that," and so -- 24 MR. DANDAR: He can play maybe a minute of it. 25 We don't need to see the whole thing. Just so it's
41 1 on the record. 2 MR. FUGATE: Okay. I think I understand, 3 Judge. But can I just have a minute -- 4 THE COURT: Yeah. What does a minute mean? 5 MR. FUGATE: Well, can we take a break, I 6 guess, and I'll make sure it's set up? 7 THE COURT: We can. But I mean, what do you 8 need, 10 minutes? 9 MR. FUGATE: Yeah, that's fine. 10 THE COURT: All right. We'll be in recess till 11 10:30. 12 (A recess was taken at 10:21 a.m.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
42 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 11th day of June, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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