Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821?3320 Hillsborough (813)224?9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224?9500 43 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 00?5682?CI?11 3 4 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 2 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 17 CONTENTS: Testimony of Dr. Michael Garko. 18 DATE: June 11, 2002. Afternoon Session. 19 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 20 St. Petersburg, Florida. 21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 22 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 23 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 24 25
44 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602?4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 12 Organization. 13 MR. LEE FUGATE, 14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602?5147 16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 17 18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 19 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003?9518 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 22 23 24 25
45 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 3 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 4 Attorney for Robert Minton. 5 MR. LANSING C. SCRIVEN 6 Lansing C. Scriven, P.A. 442 W. Kennedy Boulevard 7 Suite 280 Tampa, Florida 33606 8 Counsel for Michael Garko. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
46 1 THE COURT: Okay, I had a chance to have a 2 slight conversation with Mr. Howie, who told me what 3 this said. It is just a couple of lines. 4 And based on my interpretation of this, I think 5 it would be the lawyer's mental impressions and not 6 necessarily notes from the meeting itself and would, 7 therefore, rule it does not have to be turned over, 8 in fact should not be turned over as it might hamper 9 any future discussions and would give one side over 10 the other an unfair advantage based on mental 11 impressions of the lawyer. 12 So my intention is to either do one of two 13 things. Either to turn it back to Mr. Howie, or to 14 seal it. My preference is, frankly, just to give it 15 back, but I can certainly seal it. 16 MR. DANDAR: On behalf of the plaintiffs, based 17 on your ruling, we would say turn it back. And also 18 I don't know if we had it on the record, but both 19 the defense and plaintiff agreed you can meet with 20 Mr. Howie in camera to talk about that. 21 MR. WEINBERG: It was on the record. 22 THE COURT: Right. Do you have a preference on 23 this? 24 MR. WEINBERG: If it is okay with Mr. Dandar, 25 just turn it back.
47 1 MR. DANDAR: And is Mr. Howie telling the Court 2 that no one from the Church of Scientology saw that 3 paper, I would assume? 4 MR. HOWIE: Yes. I make that representation. 5 And I will ?? 6 THE COURT: It has only been revealed ?? 7 MR. HOWIE: The ?? it has only been revealed to 8 the Court the first five pages of these notes ?? 9 which this is Page 6 ?? have been turned over as 10 attachments to the notice of filing. 11 MR. DANDAR: And there are no direct filed 12 notes or records from the 29th of March? 13 THE COURT: Are you ?? 14 MR. HOWIE: No. 15 THE COURT: He's going to tell us about that. 16 He said he was going to make an announcement on 17 that. I don't know what he's going to announce. 18 But, in any event, Mr. Howie ?? that can be 19 given back to him, put in your file. Thank you. 20 Your Honor, I have been faxed two pages of notes 21 from Mr. Jonas from March 29th. I would object to 22 discovering that to any party in this case. 23 The reason for that is that the original 24 request for production of documents was for the list 25 or agenda of the 7 or 8 concerns of the Church of
48 1 Scientology going into the March 28th meeting. I 2 think that what we have provided to everyone 3 actually goes beyond that, that although the first 4 five pages of notes from March 28th cover these 7 or 5 8 concerns, there is a lot of additional information 6 that we gratuitously added to that. 7 Having reviewed the notes from March 29th, 8 these do not continue to list additional concerns, 9 they are work product by Mr. Jonas, they contain 10 here?and?there what I presume to be mental 11 impressions by Mr. Jonas. Although admittedly much 12 of it is straightforward reporting, I think it goes 13 well beyond the request for production of documents. 14 No party in this case would normally be permitted to 15 see the notes and work product of an attorney 16 anyway. 17 I believe, based on the testimony that has been 18 presented here by live witnesses, a thorough 19 reporting of what occurred during that meeting has 20 been presented. There are other witnesses who could 21 testify to that. And I don't think we should invade 22 the work product of another attorney, especially 23 when it goes beyond the original purpose for the 24 request for production of documents. 25 So I would ask I not be required to turn over
49 1 these notes to the Court, or to anyone else, for 2 that matter. 3 All right. Mr. Dandar? 4 MR. DANDAR: Mmm ?? 5 THE COURT: I can't even remember, it's been so 6 long, I don't even remember why I ordered the first 7 set of notes turned over, to tell you the truth. 8 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, if I can, on March ?? 9 excuse me, on May 28 the Court heard testimony ?? 10 and let me just provide the Court with my own notes 11 on this concerning the testimony by Mr. Minton. 12 He testified that there were 7 or 8 broad areas 13 of concern that were discussed, domain names, 14 releases, further funding. "Steve Jonas has copy of 15 list of these concerns. May have his own work 16 product notes. And the Court directed me to contact 17 Steve Jonas for a copy of this list. Any work 18 product on the notes probably not subject to 19 privilege." 20 However, we have reached a point where we've 21 gone beyond that. The original purpose of this was 22 the 7 or 8 broad areas of concern. 23 THE COURT: Part of that is because Mr. Minton 24 couldn't remember what they were, too. 25 MR. HOWIE: That is correct.
50 1 THE COURT: He said 7 or 8, he could remember 3 2 or 4, and said there were others and he can't 3 remember them. 4 I said, "Well, we better get them." 5 MR. HOWIE: That is correct. And I think we 6 have thoroughly met that concern by presenting 7 Mr. Jonas' notes of March 28. I think anything else 8 is surplusage and ventures into work product that 9 really shouldn't be discoverable. 10 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar? 11 MR. DANDAR: If we're going to be limited to 12 the 7 or 8 topics on the first day, we'll file 13 another request for Monday morning to be produced. 14 No work product attaches to this type of negotiation 15 where the defense is making demands against a party 16 to affect this case, the case of the plaintiff. 17 It is known as the Mary Carter agreement. It's 18 illegal, it's unethical under Florida law by the 19 Supreme Court case of Doscarian (phonetic) in 1993 20 which we're going to brief the Court, especially 21 since Mr. Minton has been made party to the 22 counterclaim. 23 At the time that he originally testified in 24 front of Judge Baird, we knew nothing of any 25 meetings, any agreements or anything. And that is
51 1 what makes it subject to this illegal Mary Carter 2 circumstance or agreement. So all these notes ?? 3 THE COURT: Of course you knew about the 4 meeting. The reason I know that, I remember reading 5 the transcript just this weekend where Mr. Lirot 6 asked ?? didn't he ask some questions ?? maybe he 7 didn't know about the meeting. He did ask questions 8 about what caused this turnabout. 9 And I remember him saying, were you asked or ?? 10 or were you told something about ?? I don't 11 remember ?? several things he got into, could it be 12 this, could it be that. 13 MR. DANDAR: That was well after April 9, the 14 first hearing in front of Judge Baird. 15 THE COURT: You're talking about the first 16 hearing, April 9? 17 MR. DANDAR: Right. And when the motion was 18 filed on the 8th and delivered to my brother at the 19 deposition of Mr. Minton, there were no grounds 20 stated, there were no facts stated, and my brother 21 was told by Mr. Rosen, "Just wait until you see what 22 happens tomorrow at the hearing." 23 That makes it a totally insufficient motion 24 altogether. But if it weren't for knowing about 25 what Mr. Prince told us on the 14th of April, I
52 1 believe, that Sunday, there were secret meetings 2 going on, we would have no knowledge of those secret 3 meetings, the secret meetings, and have someone come 4 in and testify that they are testifying on their own 5 volition, without revealing to the Court ?? because, 6 remember, the confidentiality agreement said don't 7 reveal this to any court. That is not a proper 8 agreement under Florida law, which we'll bring out. 9 So I think we're entitled to all these notes. 10 Not the mental impressions of Mr. Jonas. We want to 11 know what he recorded down as coming from the lips 12 or the negotiations from the defense. That is 13 what ?? I believe we're entitled to know that. I 14 think the Court is. 15 THE COURT: What I suggest you do then, since 16 you had everything from the 28th, and since that 17 does cover what I asked ?? because my recollection 18 is now because Mr. Minton said there were 8 things 19 and he could only remember 3 or 4, I said, "Let's 20 get the rest of them," that covered my agenda of it, 21 but I think what you ought to do is file your 22 motion, I'll ask Mr. Howie to just hold onto those 23 notes, and we'll argue it whenever the motion is 24 filed. 25 MR. DANDAR: All right. We'll do that. We
53 1 filed a request to produce yesterday to the Church 2 of Scientology and Ms. Yingling to produce all of 3 her notes or whatever notes the Church may have 4 concerning these meetings. And I'm sure soon we'll 5 hear a response. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I have a response about 7 what Mr. Dandar just said because I am stunned. He 8 just said that he didn't know anything about these, 9 quote, secret meetings in New York until after the 10 April 9 hearing in front of Judge Baird. That is 11 what he just said. 12 Well, I'm looking at Plaintiff's Exhibit 76, 13 which ?? I'll refresh your recollection, which is 14 this March 30, 2002 letter that Mr. Dandar testified 15 he sent up to Mr. Minton in which he says, "Your 16 call yesterday was disturbing to me on a 17 professional and personal level. I do not know what 18 extortion Scientology, through Rinder, Rosen and 19 Yingling, are perpetrating against you." That is 20 how it begins. 21 Then he goes on, on Page 2, and he talks about 22 Steve, which is Steve Jonas, which is one, two, 23 three, four, the fifth paragraph. "Steve told me 24 yesterday, after I talked with you, that he does not 25 believe that the demand is a total walk?away; it's
54 1 more like demanding the estate take less than it 2 expects. It's totally unethical for Rosen, Yingling 3 and Rinder to meet with you and make demands on the 4 estate." 5 Then he goes on and on, he talks about 6 blackmail and extortion. What is he talking about? 7 What is Mr. Dandar talking about that he didn't know 8 about this in the April 9 ?? 9 MR. DANDAR: I misspoke. 10 MR. WEINBERG: No kidding ?? 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 13 MR. DANDAR: I'm talking about the meetings 14 that occurred after the 29th. I'm sorry. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that is a big ?? I'll 16 speak to you, your Honor. 17 That is a big difference. 18 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it's a huge difference, 19 because it not just asks Mr. Minton to try to get 20 Dell Liebreich to dismiss the case, it all changed 21 in going after the attorney to make the case go 22 away. 23 THE COURT: All right. Well, the long and 24 short of it is I'm going to give this back to you ?? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
55 1 THE COURT: ?? because it is in evidence. And 2 you are right. And you file your notice to produce 3 and make whatever ?? you know, we'll take that up as 4 a legal matter. 5 Mr. Howie, do you think you can be present 6 or ?? I guess you don't have to be here for the 7 argument. 8 MR. HOWIE: Well, I ?? I think I'll be filing 9 an objection on behalf of Mr. Minton. I need to 10 check my schedule for tomorrow, but I'll make myself 11 available. 12 THE COURT: Maybe what you can do, if you want 13 to file an objection, maybe if you're not going to 14 file it until tomorrow morning, maybe you can file 15 it tomorrow morning, we'll hear argument after 16 lunch, to at least give you the opportunity to file 17 a response. 18 In the interim, keep the notes and we'll see 19 whether you have to turn them over or not. 20 MR. HOWIE: All right. Thank you. 21 MR. WEINBERG: We are ready for Dr. Garko? 22 THE COURT: Dr. Garko, he can resume the stand. 23 MR. WEINBERG: He's right outside. 24 Your Honor, Ms. Yingling is in the audience. 25 She's a longtime lawyer for the church. That is not
56 1 a problem, is it? 2 THE COURT: I wouldn't think so. 3 Dr. Garko, you are still under oath. All 4 right? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel. 7 (A discussion was held off the record.) 8 THE COURT: Proceed. 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Now, Dr. Garko, did you know about a March 30, 12 2002 letter from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Minton? 13 A I did. 14 Q Okay. I'm going to hand this letter up to you. 15 It's Plaintiff's Exhibit 76. 16 THE COURT: Now I know how you got your hand on 17 that so fast. 18 MR. WEINBERG: So quickly. That is where I was 19 in my outline. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q Do you recognize Plaintiff's Exhibit 76? 22 A I do. 23 Q And how do you recognize it? 24 A I recognize it as a letter that was written to 25 Mr. Minton by Mr. Dandar, and a letter which I edited, to
57 1 some extent. 2 Q Mr. Dandar asked you to edit that letter? 3 MR. DANDAR: Objection. This is work product. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Let me finish ?? 5 THE COURT: If the question is whether or not 6 he asked you to edit it, I don't think it is work 7 product. If he asked you what did you say, that 8 would be work product. 9 MR. DANDAR: All right. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Did Mr. Dandar ask you to edit that letter before 12 it was sent? 13 A He did. 14 Q And did you do that? 15 A I did. 16 Q Now, were you in attendance at the April 9, 2002 17 hearing before Judge Baird, the contempt hearing, where 18 Mr. Minton testified? 19 A No, I wasn't. 20 Q But you were outside the courtroom? 21 A I was in another place. I mean, I wasn't ?? I 22 wasn't in the building. I wasn't in the courthouse. 23 Q You were aware of the hearing? 24 A I was. 25 Q Now, at some point after this March 30 letter and
58 1 after the April 9 hearing, did you ?? did you, Dr. Garko, 2 initiate a telephone call to Robert Minton? 3 A I did. 4 Q And what was the reason that you initiated a call 5 to Robert Minton? 6 A Well, I believe it was April 9. We were in court, 7 "we" meaning Mr. Dandar and myself, trying another case. 8 THE COURT: Trying, what, another case? 9 THE WITNESS: Another case. It had nothing to 10 do with this case at all. It's hard to believe but 11 it's true. 12 And we were on a lunch break. And Mr. Lirot 13 was at the hearing in Judge Baird's court in 14 Clearwater. And he had come over to the courthouse 15 in Tampa and reported the testimony of Mr. Minton to 16 Mr. Dandar and myself. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you?all were in Tampa? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DANDAR: I'll object to any further 21 questions on the conversation that took place with 22 Mr. Lirot, myself and Dr. Garko. 23 A So because of that conversation, that is what 24 prompted me to call Mr. Minton at his residence in New 25 Hampshire.
59 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q And did you talk to Mr. Minton? 3 A I did ?? I did talk to him. But not when I placed 4 the call. I left a message telling him that I wanted to 5 speak with him, and if he could please, at his convenience, 6 call me. And he did. 7 Q And when did he call you? 8 A He called me later the next day but early in the 9 morning, it was like 3~a.m. 10 Q Did you talk to him? 11 A I did. 12 Q And can you describe for us the conversation? 13 A Yes. He called me and he said, "Michael, I got 14 your message." He said, "You're probably concerned about my 15 testimony in Judge Baird's court." 16 And I told him that I was. 17 And we spoke for about an hour. And he proceeded 18 to tell me and talk about his testimony in Judge Baird's 19 court. 20 And I asked him a number of questions to try and 21 inform myself about what was going on concerning the funding 22 of this case, meaning the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 23 case. And Mr. Minton was willing to talk to me. And I was 24 willing to listen. And I was just trying to get answers and 25 get informed.
60 1 Q Did ?? can you tell us what he said and what you 2 asked? 3 A Okay. I asked him if it were true that he had 4 given Mr. Dandar a check for $250,000 in March of 2002. 5 And he said that he did. 6 I asked him if he had given a check to Mr. Dandar 7 for the sum of $500,000 sometime during the year ?? I 8 believe it was ?? 2000. 9 And he said he did. 10 And I think Mr. Minton asked me why I was asking 11 him that. 12 I said, "Because I didn't know about that money." 13 And Mr. Minton conveyed to me that he was 14 instructed not to tell me about those moneys. 15 And I said, "Why in God's name would you be given 16 such an instruction and who gave you that directive?" 17 And he said that Mr. Dandar did. 18 I said, "Well, why did he do that?" 19 He said, "He just told me not to tell you or to 20 tell anybody else, in fear that you would learn about those 21 moneys." 22 He asked me ?? what did he ask me? He asked me a 23 number of questions. 24 He asked me if ?? obviously, he said, "You are 25 concerned about that, aren't you?"
61 1 I said, "Yes, I am, because Mr. Dandar told me in 2 the year 2001, September of 2001, that there wasn't ??" 3 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Work product. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 MR. WEINBERG: This is his conversation with 6 Mr. Minton. He's telling Mr. Minton ?? 7 THE COURT: Well, I know. But what he's 8 telling Mr. Minton is what Mr. Dandar told him in 9 '01. 10 That was not ?? in other words, he can invoke 11 the privilege at this point. But Mr. Minton has 12 probably testified to it. But he can't sit here and 13 testify to some things ?? just because he violated 14 the privilege doesn't mean Mr. Dandar now has to 15 waive it. Right? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well ?? 17 THE COURT: I think. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well ?? well, I respectfully 19 disagree. But I understand what your ruling is. 20 THE COURT: As long as we know the answer, 21 so ?? 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q As a result of the conversation that you described 24 to Mr. Minton that Mr. Dandar told you, tell us what 25 happened to you.
62 1 MR. DANDAR: Well, the same privilege. It's 2 just another way to get it in through the back door. 3 MR. WEINBERG: No. 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q What did you tell Mr. Minton that ?? did you tell 7 Mr. Minton what your financial situation was? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q What did you tell him? 10 A I told him I hadn't been paid for eight or nine 11 months. 12 Q All right. And did you tell him that you were ?? 13 that you had cut your fees? 14 A I did. 15 Q Did you tell him that you, you know, were doing 16 this in order to assist the case in this time when they were 17 apparently ?? you understood there were no funds? 18 A That is what I told him. 19 Q And what did Mr. Minton say in response to that? 20 A He said something to the effect ?? Mmm, "Well, you 21 know, I don't know what the hell is going on down there, but 22 I had given ?? I gave Mr. Dandar that money and that was to 23 fund the case, and you should have been paid." 24 Q What else happened ?? what else did Mr. Minton say 25 during the conversation?
63 1 A He expressed to me his concern about perjury. 2 And I said, "What are you talking about?" 3 He said, "Well, I perjured myself in some 4 depositions." 5 I said, "Really?" I said, "I attended your 6 depositions, Bob. I never knew you to perjure yourself." 7 And he said, "Yes, you did." 8 I said, "What?" 9 And he said, "You remember the time when I 10 testified about a meeting ?? or I testified that I never 11 participated in any meetings and whatnot?" 12 I said, "Yeah?" 13 He said, "Well, you attended a meeting in which we 14 discussed the adding of David Miscavige. And present at 15 that meeting were you, myself, Stacy, Ken and Jesse." 16 I said, "Bob," I said, "I don't know what you're 17 talking about. That meeting never happened." 18 He said, "Well, you know ??" 19 And I asked him a series of questions. I said, 20 "When did it take place? Where did it take place? What 21 time of day did it take place?" I was trying to figure out 22 what he was talking about. And I told him repeatedly on 23 that night at 3~o'clock in the morning, I said, "With all 24 due respect to you, Mr. Minton," I said, "that meeting never 25 happened."
64 1 And he said, "Well, we have a difference of memory 2 here." 3 And he expressed to me his concern about the 4 perjury. I mean, he talked about that at length. And he ?? 5 he said to me that Mr. Dandar had encouraged him to lie. 6 And I said, "About what?" 7 And something to do with secret agreements and 8 money and bank accounts. And all of which wasn't making 9 much sense to me because I wasn't privy to any of this. 10 And I said, "Well, when I was with you at your 11 depositions, you know, I never heard anybody, in my 12 presence, encourage you to lie, so I don't know anything 13 about these things." 14 He said, "Well, I understand that." 15 Q Do you recall anything else ?? 16 A Mmm ?? 17 Q ?? from this hour or so long conversation? 18 A I do. He expressed to me his concern about the 19 pressure that he was experiencing and this was difficult for 20 him, and that he wanted to try and disentangle himself from 21 this difficulty that he was in. And he spent considerable 22 amount of time talking about that. The perjury was one 23 topic and the money was the other major topic. 24 He asked me if I was upset. And I told him I was. 25 He said, "So you didn't know anything about those
65 1 moneys?" 2 I said, "Absolutely not. I didn't. I was under 3 the impression that there wasn't any more money." 4 He said, "Well, how much are you being paid?" 5 I said, "Right now?" 6 He said, "Yeah." 7 I said, "I'm being paid $4,000 a month as a 8 retainer." I said, "That is not what it was initially." 9 He said, "Well, what were you being paid?" 10 I said, "Initially when I was retained I was paid 11 $5,000 a month plus my billable hours, then when I went onto 12 the case full?time I was paid $8,000 a month, then I was 13 asked ??" 14 THE COURT: Is there some reason I should care 15 about what his fee arrangement was? 16 MR. WEINBERG: No. I mean ?? 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Did you end up telling him you had not gotten any 19 moneys since September? 20 A Right. I told him I had not been paid for the 21 last eight or nine months. For some reason he was 22 interested in how much I had been paid and what I was being 23 currently paid. I told him. 24 Q Did you, given that March 30 letter that I showed 25 you ??
66 1 A Yes? 2 Q ?? in which Mr. Dandar talks in that letter to 3 Mr. Minton ?? this is the one you reviewed ?? 4 A Yes? 5 Q ?? about extortion and blackmail, did you ask 6 Mr. Minton, during the conversation, whether he was being 7 extorted or whether there was some blackmail or something 8 about that? 9 A I did. I did ask him that question. 10 Q Tell us what you can recall you asked him and what 11 his response was. 12 A I said, "You know, is Scientology, the Church of 13 Scientology, putting pressure on you to admit that you 14 perjured yourself?" 15 And he ?? he said that ?? something to the effect 16 that they were aware that he had perjured himself and that 17 he needed to come clean with that or he would ?? you know, 18 he would find himself facing serious charges. 19 And beyond that, he did not tell me that there was 20 any other issue or thing that he did that was being 21 leveraged to get him to say that he was admitting perjury. 22 Q In Mr. Dandar's March 30 letter, there is a clause 23 or a section about a Nigerian deal or Nigerian money. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Did you ask him about whether he had some offshore
67 1 problems, tax problems, Nigerian problems, anything like 2 that? 3 A No, I didn't. I was not specific in my 4 questioning about that. 5 Q Okay. Can you remember anything else from the 6 conversation? 7 A Just generally, the way the conversation ended, 8 you know, I told him I needed to speak with him further. It 9 was late. He apologized profusely about calling me at 3 in 10 the morning. He said he would call me the next day or I 11 would call him. 12 And I said, "I really need to talk to you because 13 I don't know what is going on and I'm looking for 14 information," I said, "because I'm not getting any 15 information. I need to talk to somebody." 16 Q At that point, what was your state of mind? 17 A I was upset. I was upset. 18 Q Upset at ?? with somebody, or at ?? or for some ?? 19 A I was upset because I felt, Mmm, I had been kept 20 in the dark about the money. I was working for free, in 21 essence ?? I mean, not for free, I was still keeping track 22 of my billable hours, but I wasn't getting a retainer every 23 month. 24 I felt, you know, conflicted because I was devoted 25 to the case. And I didn't want to abandon Mr. Dandar during
68 1 this 8?month period, when he told me there wasn't any money. 2 Then when Mr. Minton told me there was $750,000 I didn't 3 know about, I became very upset. 4 Q Did you have other conversations, telephone 5 conversations, after that, and/or meetings after that, with 6 Mr. Minton? 7 A I did. 8 Q Can you tell us about those? 9 A Mmm, I spoke with Mr. Minton, I don't know how 10 many times, on the telephone. He called me. I called him a 11 couple times. Just generally, I was trying to get a sense 12 and feel for what was going on in the litigation with him, 13 all of the litigation matters regarding him. 14 I was concerned about him because he said he had 15 committed perjury. I mean, in the legal world that is a 16 serious issue. And I was very concerned about him. So we 17 talked about those things. 18 And then at one point we ?? we agreed to ?? I 19 said, you know, "I would like to see you. I want to talk to 20 you face?to?face. I need to talk to you face?to?face." 21 And he said, "That would be fine." 22 And we agreed to meet on Sunday at the Radisson 23 where he was staying. And I went to the Radisson and met 24 with him and Ms. Brooks. 25 Q And this would be Sunday, like the ?? I don't have
69 1 a calendar in front of me. 2 A It would be the Sunday after the 9th, I believe 3 the first Sunday ?? that week, you know, the end ?? I think 4 the 9th was a Monday or Tuesday, and that following Sunday. 5 Q Okay. And ?? 6 THE COURT: Are you talking about in May? 7 MR. WEINBERG: No, April. 8 THE WITNESS: April. 9 THE COURT: The date? 10 MR. DANDAR: April 14th. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q And is it your recollection that these 13 conversations that you were having with Mr. Minton were 14 prior to the big affidavit that Mr. Minton filed? 15 A That's right. 16 THE COURT: Well, you certainly knew, at the 17 time that you were meeting and calling and what have 18 you, that Mr. Minton had gone into court in front of 19 Judge Baird and had said some things that were 20 pretty harmful to your ?? what shall I say ?? your 21 side of the case? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Didn't it concern you that perhaps 24 these meetings were not such a hot idea for you? 25 Did you ever ask Mr. Dandar's permission, for
70 1 example? 2 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar wasn't speaking to me, 3 your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Did you ever ask his permission? 5 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. I didn't feel I 6 needed to ask his permission. 7 THE COURT: Did you ever ask Ms. Liebreich's 8 permission? 9 THE WITNESS: To speak with Mr. Minton? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. 12 THE COURT: Did you ever ask anybody's 13 permission to speak with Mr. Minton? 14 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q What do you mean that Mr. Dandar wasn't speaking 18 to you? 19 A I haven't spoken to Mr. Dandar since April 9th. 20 Q And did you try to speak to him on April 9? 21 A Through his attorney. 22 Q And was there some refusal, or what? 23 A Nonresponsive, except for one time when I met with 24 his attorney, and that was three weeks ago or so. And they 25 had been nonresponsive.
71 1 Q In other words, you or your counsel have reached 2 out to them, but you didn't get a response back? 3 A That is right. 4 Q Now, you said that there was a meeting, I guess 5 Mr. Dandar said the calendar would indicate April 14th, if 6 that is the Sunday, and it was at the Radisson? 7 A Yes. I believe that is the correct date. 8 Q Can you tell us about that meeting? 9 A Yes. My ?? I went there, and my intention was to 10 try and understand and really hear from Mr. Minton 11 face?to?face whether it was true that he had given $250,000 12 in March of 2002 and $500,000 in 2000. That was my primary 13 intention. Because I was told that there wasn't any more 14 money and I wasn't being paid, and I was working. I found 15 that to be a betrayal, a breach of trust. 16 I mean, I have been working on the case for three 17 years, and I expressed to Mr. Minton that I needed to know 18 the truth, because I wasn't getting it from anyplace else. 19 Mr. Dandar wasn't talking to me. And I just ?? I needed to 20 know what was going on. I'm not going to work on a case 21 when ?? 22 THE COURT: You know, really, we don't need to 23 hear all this bickering between himself and 24 Mr. Dandar. We need to find out the issues here, 25 not whether or not he and Mr. Dandar had a little
72 1 stew. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Well, what else happened at the meeting? 4 A We ?? he talked about his perjury problems. And 5 he expressed to me that this was a lot of pressure on him. 6 And that he needed to just disentangle himself from this 7 mess, and that he felt betrayed by Mr. Dandar. And 8 developed that idea, to some extent. 9 Q Do you remember, was there anything else of 10 substance that you remember that you talked to him about as 11 it related to what became this proceeding? 12 A Not really. Well, we did talk about the so?called 13 meeting. 14 And I told him again ?? and I wanted to tell him 15 face?to?face, I said, "The meeting that you claim took place 16 with those particular individuals with the agenda ?? or 17 topic, at least, that you identified, never happened." 18 And he said, "Well, you know ??" again, he just 19 said, "We have a different memory about that." 20 Q Now, today you have testified about a meeting that 21 did happen? 22 A In fact, I told him that at that time, and I told 23 him when I spoke to him on the phone, I said, "What I do 24 recall is there was a moment or a time when you and Stacy 25 came to Mr. Dandar's office, to Ken's office, and we sat in
73 1 a conference room, I didn't construe it to be a meeting, and 2 the topic of David Miscavige came up. And if you recall, I 3 talked ?? I talked about what an imprudent idea I thought it 4 was. And I gave the reasons why." I said, "I recall that." 5 I said, "But this other thing that you are 6 alleging didn't happen," I said, "I don't remember Jesse 7 Prince being there, I don't remember you walking out to the 8 elevator with Mr. Dandar and all that other business. I 9 don't remember any of that." 10 So he and I were at variance on this particular 11 issue. 12 Q How did it end? 13 A It was fine. I said, "I wish you good luck." I 14 said, "Thank you for informing me and telling me. You know, 15 I just wanted to know what was going on and I'm concerned 16 about the case. The case is what is important. That is all 17 that is important." 18 And I told him that I thought it was a righteous 19 and meritorious case. And I recall hugging him. And I 20 thanked him and I left. 21 Q And have you talked to him since? 22 A I think maybe I talked to him one time after that 23 briefly, I think ?? maybe one or two times, I think. But I 24 haven't had any extended communication with him at all. 25 Q Now, in the course of the case ?? now focusing
74 1 more on the big picture ?? do you recall any conversations 2 that you had with Mr. Minton about public statements of 3 Mr. Minton or depositions ?? testimony that Mr. Minton gave 4 concerning this agreement for the proceeds? 5 A I beg your pardon, I just missed the first part. 6 Did I ?? 7 Q Okay. Did you ever have any conversation with 8 Mr. Minton with regard to any of the public statements that 9 Mr. Minton made on the radio or other places, or his 10 testimony about any agreement by the estate to donate some 11 of the proceeds? 12 A I did. I did. 13 Q And was Mr. Dandar there for those? 14 A No. This conversation occurred when I was in 15 Clearwater visiting at the Radisson, now that you mention 16 that. 17 Q And what was that? 18 A I challenged him. I said, "And, by the way, you 19 know ??" he had mentioned something about secret agreements, 20 he was talking about, which prompted me then to ask him a 21 question that was on my mind for many, many, many, many 22 months. 23 And that was, I said, "What possessed you to go on 24 the radio and say that you had an agreement with the estate 25 to ?? to have ?? to receive a large portion or sum of any
75 1 settlement that might be gleaned or acquired in the wrongful 2 death case?" I said, "What was that all about?" 3 He said, "Well, that was the truth." 4 I said, "Well, illuminate me because I don't know 5 about any secret agreements." 6 And he proceeded to tell me what that agreement 7 was between and among him, Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich. 8 Q Now, in August of 1999, did you ?? were you in Key 9 West for a series of meetings with various people, including 10 Mr. Leipold and Mr. Dandar, concerning this strategy in the 11 case? 12 A I was. 13 Q And how many days were you there for that? 14 A Oh, it was like two, three days. It was like over 15 a weekend, hot as blazes. I remember that. 16 Q And Mr. Prince was there, as well? 17 A He was. 18 Q And did you?all work? I mean, how many hours a 19 day did you?all meet or work with regard to the strategy 20 concerning the case? 21 A Mmm, I mean, there weren't ?? it wasn't some sort 22 of organized systematic visit. There were conversations 23 from time to time about various aspects of other cases in 24 Scientology ?? involving Scientology. But I don't have any 25 recollection of sitting down and having ?? you know, at a
76 1 table with a certain number of people talking about the case 2 and strategizing and all that kind of business. 3 It was more casual than that, informal than that. 4 And the topics were varied, and people ?? different people 5 were talking at different places. 6 Q But it was mostly focused on Scientology cases, 7 including the Lisa McPherson case? 8 MR. DANDAR: Privilege. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Now, did you ?? did you meet with ?? in your 13 lawyer's office yesterday afternoon with your lawyer, me and 14 Ron Hanes? 15 A I did. 16 Q All right. And did you answer questions 17 essentially like the questions that I asked you today? 18 A I did. 19 Q And did we ?? and did you ?? were you and your 20 lawyer very careful not to discuss any privileged 21 information, only ?? only conversations concerning your 22 communications with Mr. Minton? 23 A That was a precondition. 24 Q Now, prior to that meeting ?? prior to any 25 discussions, are you aware of a letter ?? if yesterday was
77 1 June 10, I think ?? if yesterday was June 10, are you aware 2 of a letter I faxed to Mr. Scriven on June 8 ?? and I'll 3 hand it up to you in a second ?? in which I confirmed that 4 the Church of Scientology was withdrawing its motion to add 5 you as a party to the breach case? 6 A I am. 7 Q All right. And ?? and that was a letter that was 8 done before you ever had any communications with me or 9 Mr. Hanes? 10 A It was. 11 THE COURT: Who is this last person you are 12 talking about? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, Ron Hanes. He represents 14 Janis Johnson. Do you remember Thrombley & Hanes? 15 THE COURT: Right. 16 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach the witness, 17 your Honor. 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Also, have you received or did your counsel 21 receive a release and covenant not to sue which was executed 22 by the Church as to you and your company as it related to 23 any participation by you or involvement concerning the 24 Church of Scientology? 25 A I did.
78 1 Q And you don't have any ?? you haven't released the 2 Church of Scientology for any liability to you as it relates 3 to adding you to a lawsuit or anything like that, have you? 4 A Absolutely not. 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't understand 6 that. 7 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, it's not a joint 8 release. We have ?? I'll ask the question. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q You have not ?? you have not released the Church 11 from any potential liability to you, is that correct? 12 A I have not. 13 Q Okay. 14 THE COURT: Well, do you think you have any? 15 THE WITNESS: I think I do. 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right, may I approach, your 17 Honor? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 MR. DANDAR: May I see it, please? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. I'm going to give you a 21 copy. 22 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Madam Clerk, the letter would be 24 what? 25 THE CLERK: 189.
79 1 MR. WEINBERG: So the June 8, 2002 is 2 Defendant's Exhibit 189, your Honor. And that makes 3 the release Defense Exhibit 190. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q If you'll look at 189, is that a copy of the 6 letter that I sent to your attorney, Lance Scriven, on 7 June 8, 2002? 8 A It is. 9 Q And is Defense 190 a copy of a release agreement 10 and covenant not to sue executed yesterday, June 10, 2002, 11 by Ben Shaw? 12 A It is. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Those are all my 14 questions. 15 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar, were you 16 aware that, number one, Mr. Weinberg had met with 17 him yesterday? 18 MR. DANDAR: No, your Honor. Mr. Weinberg said 19 he wanted to be excused at noon to do other 20 business, and the only witness they would call would 21 be Monique Yingling. 22 And I announced at five we would call 23 Dr. Garko. And we tried to get ahold of Mr. Garko, 24 through Luke Lirot, and Mr. Scriven returned the 25 call saying he was coming in this morning, he was
80 1 being called this morning to present testimony by 2 the Church of Scientology. 3 THE COURT: Are you prepared to go forward and 4 cross?examine him, having just received these 5 documents? 6 MR. DANDAR: I would like to, otherwise ?? I 7 don't want to delay anything. 8 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 9 CROSS?EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Let's just start where Mr. Weinberg left off. The 12 release and covenant not to sue that Mr. Shaw signed on 13 behalf of the Church of Scientology Flag Service 14 Organization, are you aware that that does or does not 15 include RTC? 16 A I have no idea, Mr. Dandar. 17 Q RTC, which holds currently a judgment in Texas, 18 and trying to domesticate it here in Florida? 19 A I have no idea. 20 Q Okay. And the Church dropped you ?? or, actually, 21 you are not formally a party in the breach case before Judge 22 Baird yet, and I guess you never will be. 23 But do you know what you promised to do in 24 exchange for the Church not going forward and adding you on 25 as a defendant in the breach case before Judge Baird?
81 1 A Your question presumes I did such a thing. And I 2 didn't. I made no promise to do anything. This was 3 unsolicited. 4 THE COURT: Well, did you ever really think you 5 were going to get sued, when the clear testimony was 6 that you did not even approve of adding 7 Mr. Miscavige as a defendant? 8 THE WITNESS: What I believed, your Honor, was 9 that the hearing ?? the motion not even having been 10 heard yet, I have had to hire an attorney, and I 11 really didn't know what to expect. What was 12 expressed to me by Mr. Weinberg is that there was no 13 basis to go forward given the state of the evidence. 14 He expressed that to me yesterday. And that was ?? 15 and he was giving me the reason why he sent the 16 letter. 17 He said, "There is no basis, given the state of 18 the evidence, to keep you included as a defendant or 19 try to add you as a defendant." And that is what he 20 told me. 21 THE COURT: That is kind of beyond ?? it is 22 kind of beyond me, Dr. Garko, that you didn't know 23 the basis of the suit. The suit was, was it not, 24 breaching a contract ?? 25 THE WITNESS: I ??
82 1 THE COURT: ?? by adding Mr. Miscavige? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 3 THE COURT: Trying to add Mr. Miscavige to the 4 wrongful death case? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I knew that. Maybe I 6 misspoke. What I'm trying to say is that 7 Mr. Weinberg told me that given the state of the 8 evidence, that is, Mr. Minton's affidavit and 9 Ms. Brooks' affidavit that I did not approve of this 10 idea to add David Miscavige, that there was no basis 11 to go forward, there was ?? so that is why he sent 12 the letter. That is what I meant by that. 13 I certainly understood what they were claiming. 14 I never thought that there was a theory in law to 15 support it. But, nevertheless, I had to defend 16 myself. 17 THE COURT: I just didn't ?? I just wanted to 18 know if you really thought that this was worth 19 something, that you really ?? you really were liable 20 to being sued. Did you believe it? 21 THE WITNESS: Sure, I did. 22 THE COURT: Did you have a lawyer? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. Mr. Scriven. 24 THE COURT: And were you listening to your 25 lawyer? Did you explain all this to your lawyer?
83 1 THE WITNESS: I did. 2 THE COURT: And your lawyer still thought you 3 might get sued? 4 THE WITNESS: He felt we would have to defend 5 it in a hearing, and he didn't know what Judge Baird 6 was going to do. 7 THE COURT: I guess nobody ever knows what us 8 judges will do. 9 MR. WEINBERG: See, I don't think what you 10 understand is in the breach case, which I wasn't a 11 part of, the Church, on April 12, before the big 12 affidavit of Mr. Minton, had filed a motion to add 13 Dr. Garko as a party defendant. They actually filed 14 a motion to add him as a defendant. 15 THE COURT: Well, that is because Mr. Minton 16 really hadn't been quite as candid as he got later 17 when he said Dr. Garko really didn't want to do 18 this. He got a little more candid as he went along 19 about that. 20 MR. WEINBERG: He wasn't specific at that 21 point. 22 THE COURT: Well, after Ms. Brooks made it real 23 specific, then Mr. Minton got real specific, as I 24 recall. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Anyway, that was ?? that was my
84 1 concern. 2 MR. DANDAR: Or they just added on Dr. Garko 3 without any evidence whatsoever on April 12th. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Dr. Garko, it says in this release, "For valuable 6 consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are 7 hereby acknowledged." 8 What is your understanding of what valuable 9 consideration you are giving to the Church of Scientology 10 for them to drop you from the breach case? 11 A I ?? I don't know. My lawyer drew this up. And I 12 signed it. 13 Q Oh, your lawyer drew it up? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 THE COURT: Where are you reading from, 17 Counsel? 18 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, the first paragraph, 19 the last clause. 20 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Did you also get, I hope, a voluntary dismissal 23 with prejudice, signed, sealed and delivered? 24 A I don't think so. I don't think so. This is ?? 25 these are the only two documents that I know about.
85 1 Q Did you get any representation from the Church of 2 Scientology that they had no evidence to create a cause of 3 action against you for tortiously interfering with the 4 contract? 5 A That is what I just tried to explain a moment ago. 6 Mr. Weinberg told me and my attorney that there was no basis 7 to go forward given the state of the evidence, i.e., 8 Mr. Minton's affidavit, Ms. Brooks' affidavit, stating that 9 I was not in support of adding David Miscavige as a 10 defendant to the wrongful death case. 11 Any thought ?? they thought that was the right 12 thing to do, and I certainly agreed with them. And I said 13 to my lawyer, I said, "I want some assurances here ??" 14 THE COURT: I want to be real careful with you 15 on this. You start talking about what you said to 16 your lawyer ?? 17 THE WITNESS: Right? 18 THE COURT: ?? then don't be turning around 19 with me and start claiming the privilege. You don't 20 get to just claim it when you want it or waive it 21 when you want to. You either want to claim it or 22 you don't. 23 You need time to speak to your lawyer? 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25
86 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Dr. Garko, when you ?? when your attorney got this 3 letter on June 8, which was dated Saturday, before your 4 meeting yesterday which was Monday ?? 5 A Yes? 6 Q ?? did you know you were going to have a meeting 7 yesterday afternoon with Mr. Weinberg? 8 A Well, at some point I knew. 9 Q Well, how soon in advance? 10 A I think I knew somewhere around noon or maybe a 11 little before noon. 12 Q Yesterday? 13 A Yes. 14 Q That is the first time you knew you were going to 15 meet with Mr. Weinberg? 16 A That is right. 17 Q And this letter from Mr. Weinberg is dated June 8. 18 When did you know that the Church of Scientology had made a 19 decision to drop you as a party defendant in the breach case 20 before Judge Baird? 21 A When my attorney advised me. 22 Q And what date was that? 23 A I don't recall. It may have been the day that he 24 received the letter. I don't know. 25 Q Was it yesterday?
87 1 A I'm not sure. I don't know if it was yesterday or 2 the weekend. I'm not sure about that. 3 Q All right. And you meeting with the attorneys for 4 the Church of Scientology, was that something that ?? whose 5 idea was that? 6 A Well, what do you mean? 7 MR. SCRIVEN: Let me object to the extent it 8 invades the attorney?client ?? 9 THE COURT: That is true. Beyond anything ?? 10 in other words, if it is ?? I suppose it is your 11 decision, or if it is something other than some 12 discussion you and your lawyer had, you can talk 13 about it. Otherwise, you can claim the privilege. 14 THE WITNESS: It was a conversation I had with 15 my lawyer. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Was it in your mind ?? was it in your mind ?? was 18 it your understanding ?? I hope it is different ?? that your 19 meeting with Mr. Weinberg and coming here today was part of 20 your consideration for them dropping you? 21 A Absolutely not. 22 Q All right. Let's start from the beginning. 23 THE COURT: For whatever it's worth, just so 24 you all know ?? you know what? Did you know he met 25 with Mr. Weinberg?
88 1 MR. DANDAR: Yesterday? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. DANDAR: No. 4 THE COURT: Until he said so? 5 MR. DANDAR: That is right. 6 THE COURT: You didn't ?? you just picked up on 7 his testimony this morning where you couldn't 8 remember Point 3, Mr. Weinberg helped him to get 9 Point 3? 10 MR. DANDAR: I just ?? 11 THE COURT: I mean, it is obvious they talked. 12 Didn't you pick up on that? 13 MR. DANDAR: That part I picked up on. 14 Yesterday I didn't pick up on it. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Okay, Dr. Garko, since April 9, the first hearing 17 before Judge Baird, you and I have not spoken since that 18 day. Correct? 19 A That is what I testified to earlier. 20 Q Okay. And before the Church of Scientology 21 invoked the sequestration rule of witnesses before Judge 22 Baird on April 19, ten days later, were you under any 23 prohibition to call me up on the phone? 24 A I believe that no more, no less than you were to 25 call me.
89 1 Q Okay. 2 THE COURT: Maybe I don't understand the rule 3 of sequestration. When the rule of sequestration 4 goes into effect, it doesn't mean you can't call 5 each other. It means you can't discuss the case. 6 MR. DANDAR: I understand that. 7 THE COURT: Right? 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. And I knew I was going to be 9 a witness, and we knew Dr. Garko would be a witness, 10 so to avoid any appearance, we ?? or I just 11 decided ?? you are right. 12 THE COURT: Somehow the way that came out, once 13 the rule of sequestration went in on the 19th, he 14 couldn't call you and you couldn't call him, I just 15 wanted to make sure that everybody understood that 16 is not exactly so. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Now, Dr. Garko, while you were working for me, as 19 you said, at probably the beginning of the year 2000, and up 20 until you met with Mr. Weinberg yesterday, did anyone from 21 the Church of Scientology make any overtures to you of any 22 kind during that two?year period? 23 A Overtures of ?? I don't understand your question. 24 Q I don't understand it much myself. 25 But do you recall meeting with Mr. Lirot for two
90 1 hours? 2 A I think it was more than two hours. That was ?? I 3 do recall that was three weeks ago that we met with 4 Mr. Lirot. 5 Q And do you recall you saying to Mr. Lirot that the 6 Church of Scientology, over the past, has made overtures to 7 you? 8 A What I probably meant to say was that Mr. ?? what 9 I said to Mr. Lirot was that Mr. Weinberg was trying to 10 communicate with my attorney, wanted to communicate with my 11 attorney, and made an overture to want to speak with 12 Mr. Scriven. That is what I was talking about. 13 Q Okay. And is Mr. Weinberg's conference with you 14 yesterday with Mr. Hanes and your attorney the first time 15 you spoke to anybody that is connected with the Church of 16 Scientology about these ?? this new position and testimony 17 of Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Now, let's go to this meeting ?? not meeting but 20 this drop?in to my office by Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks. 21 All right? 22 You were already at my office. Is that what you 23 recall? 24 A That is my recollection. 25 Q All right. What office was it?
91 1 A The one on Kennedy. 2 Q All right. And the one I had before, the 3 three?story building, had no elevator. Correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q All right. And I took notes of your testimony on 6 direct here. And were you and I, either one of us, as far 7 as you know, expecting Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton to pop 8 in? 9 A No. That is why I said it wasn't a meeting. It 10 was ?? they just showed up. 11 Q Are you aware of any meeting that I scheduled that 12 involved Stacy Brooks? 13 A Not to my recollection. Not to my recollection. 14 Q Okay. Are you aware of any meeting that occurred 15 to discuss the adding on of any defendants in the year 1999 16 after the Key West trip, if that helps zone you in on the 17 year. No? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Okay. Let me put it to you this way. The first 20 hearing before Judge Moody where we had a proposed fifth 21 amended complaint and we had a motion to set aside the 1997 22 agreement not to add on parties, that occurred in October 6 23 or 8 of 1999. 24 A Okay. 25 Q Did we ever have a meeting with anybody before
92 1 that to add on David Miscavige or anybody else in 1999? 2 A Not that I recall. 3 Q Okay. 4 A Just you and me. 5 Q Okay. Did we ever have any discussions with Jesse 6 Prince? 7 A About adding David Miscavige? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Oh, probably did. Yeah, I think so. Yes. 10 Q Do you recall we used his affidavit as part of the 11 motion? 12 A That was ?? exactly. That was the evidence to. 13 Q Was there ever a meeting that Bob Minton attended, 14 even a pop?in meeting or just a pop into the office, where 15 it was discussed in front of him to add on David Miscavige 16 before we went to court and asked the Court's permission to 17 either set aside the agreement or add on David Miscavige? 18 A No. 19 Q Are you sure? 20 A I'm positive. 21 Q Okay. Now, this pop?in, casual hello that you 22 described on direct by Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, you 23 said ?? and you told Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton the three 24 reasons why you didn't think it was a great idea to add him 25 on, do you remember that part?
93 1 A I do. 2 Q Then you said, "And Stacy Brooks said, 'Well, I 3 told Ken not to add him on,'" and you said you were startled 4 by that? 5 A Right, I think it was more of a question. She 6 said, "And, Ken, why did you do that, given what I had just 7 said? Why did you do that?" 8 Q Why were you startled about that? 9 A Because I knew that it was Ms. Brooks' idea to add 10 Mr. Miscavige, and that you and I had discussed that issue. 11 Q Well, don't get into discussions but ?? 12 A Okay. 13 Q ?? but it was her idea? 14 A It was her idea. 15 Q When did it become her idea? 16 A When? 17 Q Yes. 18 A I don't know. In her life? I mean, I don't know. 19 Q Did we ever have a meeting with her where we sat 20 down and strategized on the case of we need to add on more 21 parties for some reason, without telling us what the meeting 22 was about? 23 A I don't have a recollection of that. 24 Q Okay. Somewhere you heard her discuss that this 25 case should include David Miscavige?
94 1 A I did. 2 Q Okay. And was Bob Minton part of that discussion? 3 A Absolutely not. 4 Q All right. To this day, just so the Court knows, 5 since this is the first time you and I are actually kind of 6 talking together ?? 7 THE COURT: I'm so glad I could have this 8 opportunity. 9 MR. DANDAR: I'll withdraw that ?? what I was 10 going to ask. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Based upon the comments you recall Stacy Brooks 13 making at this pop?in, "Hi, how are you doing" in my office 14 on Kennedy, isn't it true that that pop?in occurred after 15 Judge Moody permitted us to add on David Miscavige? 16 A It ?? it could have. It could have happened ?? 17 see, I'm not clear about that. It could have happened after 18 the first motion was denied and ?? and between ?? and, thus, 19 between the first motion that was denied and when the second 20 motion was granted. 21 Or it could have happened subsequently ?? or 22 subsequent to when Judge Moody said, "You can add him but as 23 head of the Sea Org." 24 Somewhere ?? I'm just unclear about that. 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was confused, you can
95 1 add him there but as the Sea ?? 2 THE WITNESS: Judge Moody said you can add 3 David Miscavige but as head of the Sea Org. 4 THE COURT: It could have been after that 5 hearing? 6 THE WITNESS: It could have been. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q But is it your recollection it was most definitely 9 after Judge Moody originally denied our motion to set aside 10 the agreement? 11 A For that, I'm absolutely sure. 12 Q Okay. Now, let's talk about Mr. Minton. 13 A Okay. 14 THE COURT: Wait a second. I don't want to 15 leave that meeting just yet. 16 MR. DANDAR: All right. 17 THE COURT: Did I hear you say ?? I think you 18 said it, I'm not sure, that you do not recall when 19 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks left whatever this is you 20 call it, kind of a casual meeting, for lack of a 21 better word, you do not recall Mr. Dandar going down 22 the elevator with them? 23 THE WITNESS: I do not, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Do you recall them leaving and him 25 remaining?
96 1 THE WITNESS: I recall ?? I don't have a clear 2 recollection how ?? how it sort of disbanded. I 3 think people said good?bye and they left and that is 4 what is in my mind. But, you know, I'm not really 5 sure. 6 But I ?? I certainly didn't go down in any 7 elevator. And I don't know of Mr. Dandar going down 8 in any elevator. I just don't know. 9 THE COURT: Whatever meeting you had, Mr. 10 Prince was not there? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm pretty sure about that, your 12 Honor, he was not there. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q In the two?plus years that you've been working on 16 this case for me, who was in control of this case? 17 A The client. 18 Q Well, what about Bob Minton? Does he have 19 anything to do with running the case? 20 A Do you mean day?to?day operations of the case? 21 Q Day?to?day decision?making? 22 A No. No. 23 Q How would you describe Mr. Minton's association 24 with the day?to?day operation of the case, strategizing, 25 decision?making, et cetera?
97 1 A I can only speak from my experience and what I 2 observed of Mr. Minton's behavior. I would describe it as 3 hands?off, laissez?faire, aloof. 4 Q Would you agree or disagree that to try to talk to 5 Bob Minton over the two?plus years about the case was like 6 pulling teeth? 7 A I would agree with that. 8 Q Okay. Let's talk about the secret meeting ?? or, 9 no, the secret agreement. Where did you first hear this 10 so?called secret agreement? 11 A I'm not sure, but it may have been when Mr. Minton 12 went on radio and announced to the world that there was this 13 arrangement such that a large portion of any moneys gleaned 14 from this case would go to fighting cults or Scientology. 15 And I think I recall going ballistic with you, 16 saying, "What in the hell is he talking about? You know, 17 what's he doing out there? Somebody has to rein this guy 18 in." 19 Q Were you actually listening to a radio program, or 20 what? 21 A No. You informed ?? my recollection is you told 22 me about it. 23 And I was just shocked. I said, "What is he 24 talking about?" I mean, "How can he do that? First of all, 25 he should ??"
98 1 Q Well, wait. Wait. 2 MR. DANDAR: This is so difficult, Judge. I'm 3 trying to get you the testimony, but I'm also trying 4 not to violate my privilege. 5 THE COURT: Times are tough, Mr. Dandar. 6 MR. DANDAR: Well, Judge, could we have a 7 ruling from you that one subject matter does not 8 open up a whole can of worms and waive the privilege 9 of the entire case? 10 THE COURT: If you want to talk about this 11 agreement, this one issue here ?? 12 MR. DANDAR: Right. 13 THE COURT: ?? I will do this. If you want to 14 open up that particular area, then that particular 15 area is opened up. 16 MR. DANDAR: And nothing else? 17 THE COURT: And nothing else. 18 MR. DANDAR: All right. Let me think about it. 19 THE COURT: Can you?all agree with that? Or do 20 you want not to? 21 In other words, I think what he's trying to 22 say, he would like to maybe waive, I guess ?? it is 23 kind of like an attorney?client privilege, I guess, 24 part of that attorney?client privilege. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I think some of the questions he
99 1 asked in other areas have already opened up the ?? 2 with Mr. ?? Dr. Garko, I'm sorry, for questions that 3 otherwise would ?? I would have not been able to ask 4 about, and he asked Dr. Garko a lot of questions. 5 But I don't think it is inappropriate to go 6 issue by issue, and I don't think that is 7 inappropriate. But there has been some other 8 questions that Mr. Dandar ?? 9 THE COURT: Well, are you worried with that if 10 you get into it and he objects. But I'm asking you 11 now, if he has any objection to waiving the 12 attorney?client privilege to the area of the 13 agreement and agree that that area does not open up 14 any other areas? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Could I have one second? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I think so. Frankly, I don't 18 know the law on it. 19 THE COURT: I don't, either. That is why I'm 20 trying to get both sides to agree. 21 MR. WEINBERG: If I did, I would tell you. 22 But, fine. 23 THE COURT: It's reasonable to me, so you have 24 got an agreement. Go ahead. 25
100 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Dr. Garko, are you aware of any agreement between 3 me or the estate and Mr. Minton or LMT or Stacy Brooks or 4 anybody where the bulk of the proceeds, if that ever comes 5 about in this case, would ever be given to them? 6 A I'm not aware of any such agreement. 7 Q How about just a little bit? 8 A No. 9 Q I don't mean to be funny. I'm sorry. How about 10 any portion? 11 A I'm not aware of any agreement involving those 12 parties in the way that you framed it. 13 Q There were two depositions taken by the Church of 14 Scientology of Bob Minton in September and October of 2001, 15 one in the breach, one in here. 16 Did you attend both those? 17 A I believe I did. I believe I did. 18 Q Okay. Are you aware that during those two 19 depositions ?? one of them I can't remember, either ?? it 20 was disclosed in transcripts of radio or newspaper 21 interviews about Mr. Minton's Internet ?? even his Internet 22 postings came out about the bulk of the proceeds? 23 A You have refreshed my recollection. That's right, 24 I do recall that. 25 Q And do you recall that it was after that
101 1 deposition that you and I approached Mr. Minton to say, 2 "What are you doing? Where did this come from?" 3 A I recall some discussion about that, but I'm just 4 not clear about what was said or ?? but I was concerned. I 5 voiced my concern about this business. 6 Q Did you ever see me tell anybody, including 7 Mr. Minton or Stacy Brooks, "Oh, yes, yeah, we have an 8 agreement. It's okay. Don't worry about it"? 9 A No, I didn't. 10 Q Now, were you ?? forgive me for asking this ?? but 11 were you part of the trial team when I incorporated the Lisa 12 McPherson Trust for Mr. Minton? 13 A I was. 14 Q Okay. So that was, I believe, October of '99? 15 A I believe it was. 16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Here is another area, 17 Judge, talk about the LMT. And, of course, 18 Mr. Minton was there so there is no privilege. 19 Okay. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Do you recall any conversation I had with 22 Mr. Minton about him wanting to form a corporation and using 23 the name "Lisa McPherson"? 24 A I do. 25 Q What was it?
102 1 A I ?? I think you had some reservations about that. 2 You weren't fond of the idea. That is my general 3 recollection. 4 Q And when Mr. Minton talked about why he wanted to 5 do the Lisa McPherson Trust incorporation, what did he say 6 why he wanted to do it? 7 A Oh, Mr. Dandar, I really don't recall why he 8 wanted to start up that organization, other than to ?? as I 9 remember it ?? deal with Scientology in some capacity, or to 10 confront them, or to ?? you know, I don't know how to put 11 it ?? I don't want to say attack, but to try and ?? what is 12 the catch phrase, expose the practices of Scientology or 13 something. 14 Q Okay. Expose the practices? Were there any other 15 reason, in reference to people who wanted to leave 16 Scientology? 17 A To help people that were in Scientology and wanted 18 to leave, to give them some sort of exit or way out, or that 19 kind of thing. 20 Q Was there ever any discussion with Mr. Minton 21 about using the Lisa McPherson Trust to somehow help the 22 wrongful death case? 23 A Never. 24 Q Did you ever picket? 25 A Not even when I was in the union.
103 1 Q So for the Lisa McPherson Trust, did you or I ever 2 picket? 3 A I ?? no. 4 Q Did I ever express, in your presence, what I 5 thought about Mr. Minton picketing? 6 A I know what you expressed. 7 Q What is that? 8 A It was the same thing that I expressed. And that 9 was that he shouldn't do that, it was a bad idea. I felt 10 that it was harmful to the case and exposed ?? exposed the 11 case in ways that were ?? that were deleterious to what we 12 were trying to do. And I was opposed to it. 13 Q Well, did I disagree with you on that? 14 A No. You ?? you agreed with me. 15 Q Now, are you aware that when Mr. Minton testified 16 on April 9 before Judge Baird ?? and without getting into 17 any specifics ?? that he misspoke about a $500,000 check? 18 A I am aware of that. 19 Q In fact, he said in his testimony before Judge 20 Baird that check came in in 2001 instead of 2000? 21 A I don't know what he said in front of Judge Baird. 22 But I know what he told me. 23 Q What did he tell you? 24 A He told me that he misspoke. 25 Q Oh.
104 1 A That he made a mistake. And he said that to me in 2 the phone conversation at 3~a.m. And he also told me that 3 when I was in Clearwater visiting him at the Radisson. 4 Q Okay. Outside of the trial team ?? 5 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. Sorry, I 6 have got to take this call. We'll be in recess for 7 about ten minutes. 8 MR. DANDAR: Same instructions to the witness? 9 THE COURT: Same instructions. 10 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:26 to 2:45 p.m.) 11 ____________________________________ 12 THE COURT: Continue on. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q All right. Do you recall, Dr. Garko, that I ever 15 told you to leave the room when I was on the phone with Bob 16 Minton? 17 A No. 18 Q Did I ever tell you to leave the room if I was 19 meeting with Bob Minton? 20 A No. 21 Q Did we ever have any set meetings at the LMT? 22 A No. 23 Q Did we ever have a set meeting anywhere other than 24 New Hampshire with Bob Minton? 25 A No.
105 1 MR. DANDAR: Now, here is another area I need 2 to not have a waiver of the privilege. I'm going to 3 ask him about this ?? the name Fred. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I disagree with what he 5 just said. It is a waiver of the privilege, but he 6 doesn't want a general waiver. 7 THE COURT: Right. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Right? 9 THE COURT: Right. 10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That is right. Agreed? 11 MR. WEINBERG: I said so. While we're 12 operating under that ?? 13 THE COURT: Yes, we'll continue to operate 14 under that general agreement that there are certain 15 areas that are at issue here ?? 16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 17 THE COURT: ?? and that will not constitute a 18 general waiver where you can just ask everything 19 about the whole case. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Some day I'll research the law 21 and figure out what the rule is ?? 22 THE COURT: Me, too. 23 MR. WEINBERG: ?? but I don't know what it is. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Did you ever hear me refer to Bob Minton, while I
106 1 was on the phone talking with him, as Fred? 2 A I have heard you use the name Fred when you talked 3 to him on the phone. I'm not clear whether you were 4 referring to him or some fictitious character. I'm not 5 sure. 6 Q Okay. You don't know why I did that? 7 A I think I do. 8 Q Go ahead. What is it? 9 A Mmm, sort of a way to disguise the ?? the donor of 10 the money. 11 Q Really? 12 A I think it was never really clear. That is why I 13 say it is not clear as to why you used Fred. I'm not sure. 14 Q Do you recall me using the name Fred to Bob Minton 15 when I'm on the phone because we thought we were bugged in 16 the room? 17 A Oh, yes. 18 Q All right. And let's go back to what you said 19 before. 20 Did I ever tell you or anyone else that when I 21 used the word Fred I was talking about some source of money? 22 A Not to me. I don't know about anybody else. I 23 can only speak ?? 24 Q To you? 25 A ?? to me.
107 1 Q Or in your presence? 2 A That's right. 3 Q Okay. Now, this New Hampshire trip happened in 4 February 23rd to 24th, I believe, of 2002. Do you recall 5 going to Vanderbilt University to take the deposition ?? 6 were you there ?? of Dr. Fogo? 7 A Absolutely. 8 Q And do you recall me having conversations with 9 Mr. Minton about meeting us there? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And do you recall whose idea it was to get 12 together with Minton? 13 A I think it was Mr. Minton's idea. 14 Q And do you recall me telling you, or Bob saying, 15 why he wanted to meet me? 16 A I'm ?? I don't ?? I don't have a clear 17 recollection as to why. I'm just not sure. I want to say 18 something about the money or funding, but I'm not sure about 19 that so I ?? I don't wish to speculate. 20 Q All right. Do you recall me saying that Bob 21 Minton wants to meet with me and I don't know why because he 22 won't say? 23 A That is probably true because I don't have a clear 24 recollection of why he wanted to meet, so that is very 25 possible. Yes.
108 1 Q Do you recall Bob Minton calling me up and wanting 2 to have me fly to Atlanta to meet him and Stacy Brooks? 3 A That is right. He did. 4 Q And then when I declined that, do you recall me 5 making a reservation for him at the new hotel at Vanderbilt 6 University? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And do you recall him canceling that? 9 A I do. 10 Q And do you recall why he canceled it? 11 A I'm not sure why he did. I'm not sure at this 12 moment. I can't recall. 13 Q Well, let me see if I can help see if you remember 14 this. Do you recall him canceling it because Mark Bunker 15 was in the hospital? 16 A Oh, yes. Mark, I think, had some heart problem, 17 coronary problem of one sort or another. They thought he 18 had a heart attack. I think that is what I ?? that is what 19 I recall. 20 Q Okay. And do you recall that I went to the Cayman 21 Islands for a week with my family? 22 A I recall that. 23 Q Do you recall me going to the Cayman Islands over 24 the years ?? well, as long as you have known me, with my 25 family?
109 1 A I recall you taking these cruises or whatnot to go 2 someplace. 3 Q And did we have any discussion about Bob Minton 4 meeting me in the Cayman Islands? 5 A I don't remember that. 6 Q All right. 7 A I don't remember that. 8 Q Now, let's talk about New Hampshire. Whose idea 9 was it for you to go to New Hampshire? 10 A I raised the issue of going to New Hampshire. I 11 wanted to go because I felt I could assist. 12 Q And did I tell you that Bob Minton wanted us ?? or 13 wanted me ?? before you and I talked about it, before you 14 said you wanted to go, did I tell you that Bob Minton is the 15 one that wanted me to come to New Hampshire and see him? 16 A That is what you told me. 17 Q And did I tell you I didn't know what it was 18 about? 19 A I asked you, "Why are we going?" 20 And you said, "I'm not clear. I don't know." 21 Q And is that New Hampshire trip the culmination of 22 all these other arrangements of trying to meet Bob Minton at 23 his request? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Now, let's talk about New Hampshire. Stacy did
110 1 make a great dinner that night, didn't she? 2 A Pretty good. 3 Q Okay. And Bob Minton did have an emotional 4 breakdown? 5 A Mr. Minton was very, very upset. 6 Q In fact, he was crying ?? would you agree he was 7 crying uncontrollably? 8 A That is a fair characterization. 9 Q And would you agree that the only reason he gave 10 us when he said "I don't trust you anymore" to me is because 11 of these attacks on the Internet? 12 A That was ?? that was the thrust of his concern. 13 Q Did he ever say, "You made me lie under oath, Ken 14 Dandar"? 15 A He never said that in my presence. 16 Q So then he explained how emotionally upset he was 17 because of these attacks on the Internet and he thought I 18 orchestrated that? 19 A He did. 20 Q And did I assure him that he had received bad 21 information, I had nothing to do with that? 22 A You told him that you were not involved in that 23 and did not organize it and had nothing to do with it and 24 you were going to do whatever you could to stop it. 25 Q Now, you recall eating the dinner that Stacy
111 1 prepared? 2 A I do. 3 Q And do you recall, in the dining room of Bob's 4 150?year old farmhouse, we sat at a table with only four 5 chairs? 6 A Dining room table. That is right. 7 Q And do you recall that Bob Minton's back was to 8 the fireplace? 9 A I think that is ?? I think that is right. I think 10 so. 11 Q And I sat directly across from him at the table? 12 A You were face?to?face. 13 Q And you and Stacy were face?to?face? 14 A Right. We sat on opposite sides of the table. 15 Q You recall Bob Minton bringing up, all by himself, 16 the statement, "I have no more money for you"? 17 A He did. 18 Q And he was looking at me when he said that? 19 A He ?? he was looking at you and ?? and was, as I 20 testified earlier, pretty emphatic about it. 21 Q And do you recall me saying, in response to that, 22 "That is okay, Bob. I appreciate everything you have done"? 23 A That is what you said. 24 Q Okay. Was there anything right then and there in 25 your mind that I was not being sincere?
112 1 A No. 2 Q Oh. Okay. All right. 3 A No. I was ?? I wanted to say something to him, 4 but I didn't. 5 Q All right. You wanted to, what, request money? 6 A Absolutely. That is why I went. 7 Q Okay. Speaking of money from Bob Minton, did I 8 ever tell you, every time I got a check, how much it was? 9 A No. 10 Q Did I ever tell you how much the costs were in 11 this case? 12 A Indirectly. 13 Q Now, the notes from Mr. Rosen ?? well, we'll get 14 to that later. 15 Did I ever tell you ?? well, never mind. I better 16 watch where I'm going here. The privilege. 17 Now, when Mr. Minton says, "I have no more money 18 for you," at that dinner on Saturday night in New Hampshire, 19 do you recall him saying then, "But I have a friend in 20 Europe that I can talk to, to get you more money"? 21 A I recall a conversation or some statements about 22 alternative sources and some European source for money. 23 Q Okay. And do you remember me asking Bob, "Well, 24 who would that be?" 25 A I do recall that.
113 1 Q And do you remember Bob Minton saying, "Well, 2 let's call him the 'Fat Man'"? 3 A Or some such name. 4 Q And ?? and what was my reaction? 5 A I ?? Mmm, I describe it as you thought it was sort 6 of a silly ?? silly thing ?? 7 Q Okay. 8 A ?? to do. 9 Q Now, at this dinner do you remember Bob Minton 10 saying that there were some conditions that this person in 11 Europe would want me to do in order to get some more money? 12 A I don't have a recollection of that. 13 Q Okay. Let's see if I can jog your memory. And, 14 of course, tell me what you remember. 15 Do you remember Bob Minton saying that one of the 16 things I needed to do was to quit talking to Patricia 17 Greenway? 18 A You refreshed my recollection. I do recall that. 19 Q Do you recall Jesse Prince coming to my office in 20 February of that year, telling me, before he ?? before he 21 went to New Hampshire, telling me the same thing? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Back in New Hampshire, do you remember Mr. Minton 24 saying, also, that somehow I had to make an effort to get 25 these people to quit talking about him on the Internet?
114 1 A He was pretty insistent about that. That was one 2 of the conditions among a couple others, I believe. 3 Q Okay. And then do you remember him saying I had 4 to write him a letter expressing my sincere thanks and 5 gratitude for what he has done? 6 A He did. I think he referred to it as a suck?up 7 letter. 8 Q Did he call it a suck?up letter then? 9 A I think ?? I don't know, maybe I'm a little 10 confused and I got that from him in a later conversation. 11 Q Okay. All right. Do you recall at the conclusion 12 of that dinner everything seemed to be just fine and dandy 13 between me and Bob Minton? 14 A There seemed to have been some relational repair 15 that occurred and he seemed more at ease, he seemed more 16 relieved. I was despondent, but he was okay. 17 Q Throughout your two?plus years on the ?? working 18 for me for the estate, did you ever hear any ?? from any 19 source whatsoever anyone say, "Ken Dandar, you have to do 20 this in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case if you want 21 to get any more money"? 22 A Never in my presence. 23 Q Did you ever hear, from any source, anyone say, 24 "Ken Dandar, you did this. That is great. Here is some 25 more money for doing that"?
115 1 A No. 2 Q Now let's go to Sunday. Sunday morning everybody 3 got up kind of late. Do you recall that? 4 A I did. I got up late. Yes. 5 Q Well, all except maybe for me, I got up early. 6 Do you recall that ?? were you downstairs Sunday 7 morning before Mr. Minton, or after? 8 A Before Mr. Minton. Before Mr. Minton. 9 Q Okay. I was already downstairs? 10 A You were. 11 Q Okay. Was Stacy Brooks already downstairs? 12 A Yes. You were in the kitchen. 13 Q She and I were talking? 14 A You were. 15 Q Okay. Now, sometime on that Sunday morning you do 16 recall sitting down with me, Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton, 17 and he started talking about Judge Schaeffer's contempt 18 order? 19 A I do recall that. 20 Q And one of us, me or Mr. Minton, said, "Well, 21 let's go over the questions and see what the big deal is"? 22 A I think we all sort of agreed to do that. I 23 thought it was a good idea and I was for that, yes. 24 Q And we went over all those questions, all 80?plus 25 questions?
116 1 A We did. 2 Q Okay. Now, did I ever tell Bob Minton to lie 3 about anything? 4 A Not in my presence. 5 Q Did I ever tell Bob Minton to fudge somehow so he 6 didn't have to answer the question truthfully? 7 A Not in my presence. 8 Q Have you ever known me to tell anybody to lie 9 under oath? 10 A No. And I wouldn't work for you if you did. 11 Q I'm not talking just about this case. I said 12 anywhere. 13 A That is right. I wouldn't work for you or any 14 attorney that told that to a witness. 15 Q Okay. One thing that bothers me, and I don't mean 16 this as ?? don't take me wrong. Okay? And I know you said 17 your attorney drew this up. 18 A Yes. 19 Q But this release that you signed with Flag, you 20 know, it still says "for valuable consideration." Let me 21 ask you this question. 22 Did you agree to do anything for the Church of 23 Scientology to get them to drop you from the breach case? 24 A Absolutely not. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada. 25 Nothing.
117 1 Q Okay. In the wrongful death case, you took 2 copious notes on your laptop? 3 A Absolutely. 4 Q All right. Did you agree or have you given them 5 any of your notes? 6 A Absolutely not. 7 Q Is there anything planned in the future? 8 A To do what? 9 Q For you to give them anything of any value at all, 10 anything, testify somewhere, here or anywhere, anything of 11 value that I could try to understand why that says "for 12 valuable consideration, receipt of which is hereby 13 acknowledged." We all know that is form language, but ?? 14 A Mr. Dandar, being a trial jury consultant, I hope 15 I never have to testify again in any proceeding. I offered 16 them nothing. I didn't tell them I would do anything. I 17 didn't offer them anything. They didn't offer me anything. 18 There was no exchange of promises to do anything. I 19 wouldn't do that. That would be unprincipled, in any mind. 20 Q I agree. 21 THE COURT: Have you been relieved of your 22 duties in this case, whatever you want to call it, I 23 don't know, whether you and Mr. Dandar have some 24 sort of written agreement or whether it is just, you 25 know, "Will you work for me on this case?"
118 1 THE WITNESS: We have an oral contract, your 2 Honor. And Mr. Dandar hasn't advised me that I have 3 been relieved of my responsibilities. 4 THE COURT: Nor have you advised him? 5 THE WITNESS: I have not. 6 THE COURT: So as far as you know, it is your 7 understanding that your relationship as his trial 8 consultant continues? 9 THE WITNESS: I ?? I ?? that is the premise I'm 10 operating under. 11 THE COURT: I'm kind of ?? there has been much 12 about this particular hearing and this particular 13 case that confuses me. 14 There must have been some reason why you, as 15 Mr. Dandar's trial consultant, thought it would be 16 all right for you to meet with the opponent chief 17 trial attorney without notifying Mr. Dandar that you 18 were doing so. 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor ?? 20 THE COURT: It's very confusing to me. I mean, 21 my ?? I had, you know, investigators and people that 22 used to work for me. I would have been beside 23 myself, I couldn't have been in the same room, quite 24 frankly, if that had occurred. 25 What ?? what was going on here?
119 1 THE WITNESS: What was going on in my mind? 2 THE COURT: Well, yeah. I guess. 3 THE WITNESS: What motivated me to agree to 4 meet with Mr. Weinberg and Mr. Hanes was that the 5 Church of Scientology had identified me as a 6 potential defendant in the breach of contract case. 7 I had spoken with Mr. Lirot several weeks ago. 8 I was seeking information from him and wanting to 9 talk with him, trying to explain to him, you know, 10 my position. 11 And I had the sort of same motivation to speak 12 with Mr. Weinberg. I had my attorney with me whom I 13 consider to be probably one of the most ethical 14 attorneys I have ever known. And I felt that I 15 would be in good hands with him. And I wanted to 16 give Mr. Weinberg ?? they were ?? they subpoenaed 17 me. And he said he wanted to talk with me. 18 THE COURT: He subpoenaed you for today. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 20 THE COURT: Right? 21 THE WITNESS: He subpoenaed me to be here to 22 testify. You know, he ?? he asked if he could speak 23 with me. I certainly was interested in wanting to 24 know what he wanted to talk about. 25 Being a trial consultant, I figure if I had a
120 1 preview of coming attractions, at least, you know, I 2 could cope better with the situation. I was curious 3 as to what he wanted ?? wanted to know, quite 4 frankly. 5 And I would not ?? my attorney was very clear 6 about not wanting to violate any privileged 7 information. And in all fairness to Mr. Weinberg 8 and Mr. Hanes, Mr. Weinberg said that he did not 9 want to broach any issue or topic that dealt with 10 this wrongful death case or otherwise cause me to 11 breach the confidentiality ?? the confidentiality 12 between me and Mr. Dandar. 13 And with Mr. Scriven present, I felt 14 comfortable, to some extent, in doing that. That 15 was my motivation. I was curious, as I was curious 16 to speak with Mr. Lirot ?? 17 THE COURT: Mr. Lirot is co?counsel for the 18 estate. 19 THE WITNESS: I understand that. 20 THE COURT: Did you call him to say, "You don't 21 mind, do you, if I go over and talk to Mr. Weinberg 22 about my testimony tomorrow?" 23 THE WITNESS: I didn't, your Honor. This 24 happened about as quick as instant coffee yesterday. 25 I got notified a little before noon that
121 1 Mr. Weinberg wanted to meet. And I ?? I said, 2 "Fine. That is fine with me. See what he has to 3 say. What does he want to ask me?" That was my 4 motivation. It's as simple as that. 5 And this business about this letter and this 6 agreement, Mr. Weinberg told me yesterday that he 7 felt that that was proper because there was no basis 8 to go forward given the state of the evidence, that 9 is, Mr. Minton's affidavit, Ms. Brooks' affidavit, 10 that I had nothing to do ?? or certainly was opposed 11 to the idea of adding Mr. Miscavige, and he felt the 12 Church made the right decision to drop me as a 13 defendant. 14 And I told him I was very pleased with that, 15 given that while Mr. Scriven is a fine lawyer, he 16 does have billable hours. And to be dropped as a 17 defendant was just fine with me. 18 THE COURT: Just out of curiosity, do you think 19 that if I were to put a little statement of this, 20 what you did, that you went and met with opposing 21 counsel with your lawyer present, and never bothered 22 to discuss this with your boss, do you think you 23 would get hired by a whole lot of other lawyers? 24 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, context is 25 everything, your Honor. And at ?? at that point in
122 1 time, candidly, I felt that my relationship with 2 Mr. Dandar was pretty fractured. We had a pretty 3 contentious interaction on April 9th. I mean, I 4 was ?? to be candid with you, I was very, very upset 5 with him. And I ?? 6 THE COURT: You are always free to say, "I'm 7 off this job, I'm not on this job anymore, I'm outta 8 here." 9 THE WITNESS: I understand. 10 THE COURT: You didn't. You didn't tell him 11 you weren't on the job, and you didn't tell him you 12 weren't on the job so contractually you two had a 13 contractual relationship. 14 THE WITNESS: That's right. And part of the 15 contract was that ?? as I understood it ?? that I 16 was to provide him my services, and he was to pay 17 me. And I felt, honestly, betrayed when I 18 discovered that Mr. Minton had given $750,000 more 19 than what Mr. Dandar had disclosed to me, and in 20 September of 2001 Mr. Dandar told me there wasn't 21 any more money. 22 I felt an obligation to him. I felt an 23 obligation to the case. And I stayed on and worked 24 without any money for eight months. 25 THE COURT: Well, was this payback? Is that
123 1 what this is? I guess you are sitting here telling 2 me you don't have qualm one about going and sitting 3 in a meeting with opposing counsel for the other 4 side, chief trial lawyer, when you were still on the 5 case for this side? Is that what you are telling 6 me? 7 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Well, then you do have a qualm 9 about it. What is it? I mean, you do or you don't? 10 I guess I don't get it. I just don't get it. If 11 you were his investigator or his employee, how it 12 was you thought it was okay to go, in essence, sit 13 down with the opposition? 14 THE WITNESS: Well ?? 15 THE COURT: And I'm supposed to sit here and 16 say, "Oh, dear, well, he has a fine ethical lawyer 17 and he must be a real fine guy," so I'm just to 18 trust you that you didn't break any rules and break 19 any confidences, and I'll never hear about this 20 again in this case, where I have been sitting here 21 for 20 days hearing about all kinds of breaches, all 22 kinds of lies, all kinds of perjury, all kinds of 23 problems by lawyers? I'm supposed to trust you? Is 24 that what you are telling me? 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what I am saying to
124 1 you is that I don't lie. I tell the truth. I am 2 under oath. I didn't violate any confidences. I 3 spoke with Mr. Lirot. 4 THE COURT: Well, did you ask his permission? 5 I mean, all you have to tell me is, "I called and 6 asked permission to go sit down and talk to 7 Mr. Weinberg, and he said it is okay." 8 And I'll say, "I'm sorry I just yelled at you," 9 and we may move on. You may not know it, but I 10 guarantee we'll have a hearing. It might take one 11 day, two, it might take longer than this to figure 12 out what in the world you did and what it means to 13 this case. I just guarantee you, when they get home 14 and start looking it up, and I'll have to hear about 15 it. 16 So if I sound like I'm annoyed, you can 17 understand and be sure that I am. 18 THE WITNESS: All right. 19 THE COURT: Because that just isn't the way my 20 investigator and my trial consultant would ever, 21 ever have done. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, at that point in time, as 23 of yesterday, we had tried to contact Mr. Lirot 24 several times to meet with him to talk with him, and 25 it was nonresponsive. And I didn't know how to
125 1 interpret that. I interpret no move as being a 2 move. And I'm thinking, well, I suppose I'm left 3 out here in the lurch on my own. I had to hire my 4 own attorney. I had to pay that attorney. I'm 5 still paying that attorney. I haven't been paid for 6 eight months. And ?? 7 THE COURT: Well, I guarantee you this. I'll 8 bet your lawyer gets turned in to the Bar, too, over 9 this. There are more lawyers turned in to the Bar 10 on this case, more than any case I have ever been 11 involved in in my life, and I just don't want 12 another problem. But I can see it coming. 13 So as I say, if I sound like I'm a little 14 annoyed, I am. 15 Move on. I thought you were done. I was going 16 to get my lecture in at the end. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Dr. Garko, you attended most all of the 19 depositions and all of the hearings on the Lisa McPherson 20 case once you got involved in it? 21 A I think I have attended most of them. 22 Q You attended the mediations? 23 A I did. 24 Q Did I ever tell Mr. Minton what was offered at 25 mediation, as far as you know?
126 1 A Not in my presence. 2 Q Okay. Mr. Minton says in his affidavit on 3 Paragraph 10 that $600,000 was offered by the Church of 4 Scientology. 5 Do you recall there ever being an offer of 6 $600,000? 7 A No. Not to my recollection. 8 Q I'm not asking you what the offers were at 9 mediation. I think this is taboo. But that is what he says 10 in his affidavit. And I just want to ask you that one 11 question. 12 Now, you were on the case in May of 2000 when 13 Mr. Minton had his deposition in May of 2000. Do you know 14 if I ever met with Mr. Minton to prepare him for his 15 deposition where he was represented by John Merrett? 16 A No. 17 Q Now, since you were in Key West, which I believe 18 was August of '99, did you ever learn from any source that I 19 had any conversation or get?together or meeting with 20 Mr. Minton in August of '99 to talk about adding on David 21 Miscavige? 22 A No. 23 Q Did I ever send, as far as you know, Mr. Minton 24 anything of a confidential source, like a confidential 25 document, deposition, anything, did I ever send to
127 1 Mr. Minton? 2 A Not to my knowledge. 3 Q Now, do you recall that representing Dr. Houghton, 4 the dentist in this case, was Robert Polli? 5 A I do. 6 Q And Robert Polli was pretty friendly to you and 7 me? 8 A I consider Robert Polli to be a friend. 9 Q In fact, when Mr. Polli quit this case and moved 10 to Hawaii, he had a going?away party? 11 A He did. 12 Q And you went to that party? 13 A I was invited. 14 Q And I was not. 15 A I'm sorry. 16 Q Judge Quesada go to that party? 17 A I spoke with him. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q When was that party? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. This is way beyond 22 the scope of the ?? of the direct examination as to 23 whether Mr. Polli had a party when he moved out of 24 Florida. 25 THE COURT: It may be beyond the scope but, you
128 1 know what, he was going to call this witness, so 2 rather than us going through the charade of having 3 him step down and step up and put on another hat, 4 let's just allow this. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. That is why I haven't 6 objected before this. 7 THE COURT: I'm going to let him go and ask 8 questions beyond the scope, assuming that is his 9 questions, and you can cross on it. Okay? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Did I ever ?? as far as you know from any source, 13 did I ever tell Bob Minton to go on radio or the media and 14 say whatever he could possibly say to attack the Church of 15 Scientology? 16 A Absolutely not. 17 Q The movie The Profit, was the movie The Profit 18 something that I was involved with outside of this cameo 19 appearance? 20 A Not to my knowledge. 21 Q Do you know if the movie The Profit was created in 22 order to infect the jury pool on the Lisa McPherson case? 23 A I never heard of that before. 24 Q But you did know about the movie. Right? 25 A I did.
129 1 THE COURT: Did you have a part? 2 THE WITNESS: In the movie, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Well, then I'll give you kudos for 6 that. 7 THE WITNESS: Thanks, your Honor. 8 MR. WEINBERG: There are a few of us that 9 didn't have parts. 10 THE COURT: Yes, I'm glad there are a few. You 11 get an "attaboy" for that. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q From any source whatsoever was the Lisa 14 McPherson ?? and is the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 15 case ?? being used to attack the religion of the Church of 16 Scientology? 17 A Not from my point of view, no. 18 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton or Stacy Brooks say 19 that? 20 A Not to me. No. 21 Q Okay. 22 A No. 23 Q Did you ever hear me say that? 24 A No. The answer is no. 25 Q All right. Now, you read all of the affidavits of
130 1 Robert Minton? 2 A I did. 3 Q Is there anything in his affidavits ?? 4 THE COURT: Did you read the last one, the 5 fourth one? We're up to number four. 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, we are, your Honor? 7 THE COURT: Did you only read three of them? 8 THE WITNESS: I believe I only read three. 9 THE COURT: Well, there is another one. 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q The first three where he makes allegations against 13 me ?? 14 A Yes? 15 Q ?? was there anything in any of those allegations 16 that you recall ?? I know this is important, I shouldn't 17 rush through this ?? but was there anything in those 18 allegations that you recall where he spoke the truth? 19 THE COURT: Well, that is about the worst 20 question I have ever heard. 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it is. 22 THE COURT: "My name is Bob Minton," I would 23 assume is one, so you can't do that, Counsel. 24 MR. DANDAR: All right. 25
131 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Well ?? 3 THE COURT: I mean, it might all be the truth. 4 But there are certainly things in every affidavit 5 that are going to be true. Do you have some 6 specific questions? Ask him. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Did I ever prepare Bob Minton for his second and 10 third depositions, the ?? actually third and fourth ?? the 11 ones in September and October of 2001? 12 A Not with me. No. 13 Q But you and I attended those together? 14 A We did. 15 Q Do you know if anyone working at the Lisa 16 McPherson Trust was being paid by the Lisa McPherson Trust a 17 salary just so they would hang around and be able to testify 18 in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case? 19 A I'm ?? I'm confused by your question. 20 Q All right. 21 THE COURT: Just a lot of this that I dare say 22 that he ?? that the best he is going to be able to 23 say is, "Not in my presence," or, "Not that I know 24 of." 25
132 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Well, in the year 2000 and 2001 when the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust was active, weren't you in my office and 4 around me every day? 5 A That is probably true. 6 Q And did you ever hear that the ?? that the 7 employees, or some of them at the Lisa McPherson Trust, were 8 only over there working ?? getting paid a salary ?? because 9 they were witnesses in the Lisa McPherson case? 10 A No. 11 Q What type of relationship did we have, the estate, 12 you and me, with the Lisa McPherson Trust? 13 A Well, there are three questions there, I guess. 14 My relationship with the trust? I ?? I don't know 15 if I had any kind of professional relationship with the 16 trust. 17 Q Well, even an individual ?? 18 A I just knew people there. I mean, I wasn't 19 involved in the LMT. I didn't ?? I was not part of what 20 they ?? what they were doing. In fact, I tried to distance 21 myself from what they were doing because it was just too 22 much of a distraction for me. 23 Q Okay. What did I have with them, if anything, 24 that you observed? 25 A Mmm, I think you helped them incorporate it. Of
133 1 course, you knew probably more people there than I did, 2 talked to them. But I don't know that you had some 3 connection with their day?to?day operation or ?? or 4 organization as it was operating in Clearwater, Florida. 5 Q Okay. When you confronted Bob Minton about ?? 6 after his deposition, when we found out about those radio 7 interviews and newspaper interviews and Internet postings 8 about this so?called agreement to give them the bulk of the 9 proceeds, did Mr. Minton tell you then, "Oh, yes, that is 10 true," or what did he say? 11 A Are you referring to my conversation with him when 12 I was in Clearwater? 13 Q No. No. Back in 2001, back after his deposition 14 testimony. 15 A I don't think ?? I don't think I recall 16 confronting him then ?? 17 Q Okay. 18 A ?? about that. 19 Q You only confronted him this year? 20 A That is right. I mean, this is the first time I 21 really have ever spoken with him. 22 Q You confronted him this year because you found out 23 on April 9 he testified that there was an agreement? Is 24 that what you're saying? 25 A Repeat your question? I'm sorry. I lost my train
134 1 of thought. 2 Q I think I got lost, too. I ?? what I'm trying to 3 do is get into the meetings you had with Mr. Minton after 4 April 9. 5 A Okay. 6 Q First of all, when were you subpoenaed to be here 7 today? 8 A I was subpoenaed yesterday. 9 Q Before, or after, the meeting? 10 A Before the meeting. 11 Q Okay. When you met with Stacy Brooks and Bob 12 Minton after April 9 at the Radisson ?? 13 A Yes? 14 Q ?? did either one of them try to get you to line 15 up with them on what they were saying? 16 A No. Not at all. I mean, that wasn't ?? that 17 wasn't the purpose. I wanted to speak with Bob. I wanted 18 to see him. I wanted to talk to him. 19 I didn't feel like I was doing anything improper 20 at the time. I wanted to learn from him what was going on 21 because I wasn't aware of what was going on relative to this 22 funding of the case. And I wanted to know. And that was my 23 motivation. That is what I wanted to know. I was upset. 24 Q When you told him that the meeting that he had 25 talked about, about adding Miscavige, never took place ??
135 1 A Yes? 2 Q ?? did he try to persuade you to change your view 3 on that? 4 A No, he didn't. You know, in all fairness to 5 Mr. Minton, all he said to me was, "Michael, you have a 6 different recollection than I do." 7 Q Did Mr. Minton, at these meetings in April or the 8 telephone calls ?? 9 A There was only one meeting ?? 10 Q Oh. 11 A ?? in Clearwater. 12 Q One meeting? But you had several calls with him 13 on the telephone? 14 A Yes. There were a few. 15 Q Did he ever say, in any of those phone calls or at 16 that one meeting this year, that Ken Dandar made him lie in 17 a deposition? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Which one? 20 A I don't recall which one specifically. But he ?? 21 he said to me that you encouraged him to lie about funding, 22 and that certain ?? there was some sort of account, secret 23 account, that you had, and that he was to channel the money 24 into these accounts or account, and he wanted you to ?? you 25 wanted him not to disclose that, in other words, to sort of
136 1 lie by omission, as I interpreted his comments. 2 Q And did he say when I asked him to lie? 3 A He didn't have that kind of specificity. 4 THE COURT: I have a question along those lines 5 I feel required to ask. 6 Was that his basis for using this ?? did he 7 indicate to you the reason why he used the funds or 8 method of paying that he did was because Mr. Dandar 9 wanted this to go into some secret account? 10 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, he led me to believe 11 that Mr. Dandar asked him to channel the money in 12 certain kinds of ways such that the Church of 13 Scientology wouldn't know about these funds and such 14 that others wouldn't know about these funds. 15 THE COURT: He never suggested to you that it 16 was he who didn't want the Church of Scientology or 17 anybody else to know about the source of these 18 funds? 19 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: It was all Mr. Dandar, was it? 21 THE WITNESS: That is right, your Honor. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Did Mr. Minton talk to you about a $300,000 24 donation by Operation Clambake, that he tried to hide the 25 source of the funds ??
137 1 A He didn't discuss that with me. 2 Q ?? that went to the LMT? 3 A He didn't discuss that. 4 Q Did he talk to you about a $500,000 wire transfer 5 to the LMT? 6 A No. 7 Q Did he talk to you about sending Gerry Armstrong a 8 $100,000 check so Gerry Armstrong could turn around and send 9 it back to Mr. Minton as a repayment of a loan? 10 A No. 11 Q Did he tell you that he sent Gerry Armstrong 12 another $100,000 so that Gerry Armstrong could turn around 13 and send that back to the LMT? 14 A No, he didn't. 15 Q Did he tell you that he lied in his deposition of 16 April 8, 2002 that Mr. Rosen took? 17 THE COURT: This is just wasting a lot of time, 18 Counsel. I think you can rest assured he didn't 19 tell him all those things. It's all right to waste 20 a little time but ?? 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. That is all I have. 22 THE COURT: Redirect. 23 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q Let me first start by talking about the meeting
138 1 that you testified about that took place in Mr. Dandar's 2 office with Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and yourself in the fall 3 of 1999 regarding what you said about you making the speech 4 about why Mr. Miscavige shouldn't be added. All right? 5 A Okay. 6 Q Now, do you recall that you were in attendance at 7 the October 8, 1999 hearing before Judge Moody when the 8 first motion that had been filed in early September to add 9 Mr. Miscavige and Mr. Raffa and Mr. Minkoff was argued? 10 A I believe I attended that hearing. 11 Q And do you recall that, at that hearing, that 12 Judge Moody, at the time he denied the motion pursuant to 13 this contract, telling Mr. Dandar, and I quote, "If you can 14 somehow allege that David Miscavige committed a tort, then 15 you can try to file another motion to amend and try to set 16 forth those allegations, but not by linking him up to any of 17 these corporate entities that you have agreed not to sue. 18 So I'm denying your motion to amend without prejudice." 19 Do you remember that, words to that effect? 20 A I do remember very much of that. 21 Q And do you remember that what happened was is that 22 a couple of ?? a month later on November 19, 1999 you?all 23 filed ?? or Mr. Dandar filed a new motion, this time just to 24 add Mr. Miscavige as a defendant? 25 A I recall that.
139 1 Q And this time under the ?? under this theory not 2 as chairman of the board of the RTC but as the captain of 3 the Sea Org, do you remember that? 4 A I do. I ?? 5 Q And do you remember that you were in attendance at 6 the hearing on December 14, 1999 where that motion was 7 heard? 8 A I was. 9 Q And do you remember there were a lot of people at 10 that hearing? That was the one you were there and Mr. 11 Prince was there and Ms. Brooks was there. Do you remember 12 that? 13 A I do remember that. 14 Q And do you remember at that hearing that the 15 Court, Judge Moody, said to Mr. Dandar, and I quote, "You 16 haven't gotten any testimony that he," meaning 17 Mr. Miscavige, "was there or that he ordered something or 18 that he was the direct superior of somebody that was there 19 doing things and they reported to him on a daily basis." 20 Do you remember that? 21 A I do. 22 Q And do you remember Mr. Dandar saying, "No" ?? in 23 response, "No. I don't believe that I would ever get any 24 Scientologist to say that, they got directions directly from 25 him. They would do anything or everything that they can to
140 1 protect him, as they have done in other cases. And, 2 therefore, the evidence would be through the," he said, 3 "pattern of conduct, the business pattern of conduct and how 4 they operate." 5 Do you remember that? 6 A I have pretty good recollection of that. 7 Q Now, my question to you, is that ?? those points 8 that Judge Moody was making for the first time in October 9 about needing evidence of a tort, and for the second time in 10 December about basically the failure of there being any 11 evidence to link it, was that the sort of thing that you 12 were expressing in this meeting that Mr. Dandar and 13 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks were at when you were saying why 14 you were against the notion of continuing to try to add in 15 Mr. Miscavige to the case? 16 A I was ?? the answer to that is yes in that ?? not 17 as eloquently as Judge Moody, but as a lay person, and just 18 trained with skills, if you make an argument, you have to 19 have evidence to support the argument. If you make a claim, 20 you need evidence to support the claim. 21 And I just didn't feel that there was enough 22 direct evidence to support the claim that Mr. Miscavige knew 23 of Lisa McPherson being in the hotel and giving the order to 24 die. And that is one of the reasons why I objected to 25 having it; that it wasn't based on any kind of legal theory
141 1 that I had in my head, just a simple concept of you need 2 evidence to support a claim. 3 Q Whether the meeting was spontaneous ?? or whatever 4 the word was that you used ?? or not, you took the 5 opportunity, in that meeting, to make the point to 6 Mr. Dandar, in Mr. Minton's presence, that you, the trial 7 consultant, did not believe it was a good idea to continue 8 to try to add Mr. Miscavige to the case, correct? 9 A I did. 10 Q And it would have made ?? and it is your best 11 recollection, isn't it, Dr. Garko, that you said that in the 12 period of time between when Judge Moody first denied the 13 ability to add Mr. Miscavige in October and when Mr. Dandar 14 tried the second time to add him at the end of November? 15 A It was either in that ?? between ?? in that ?? in 16 that between spot or after he was added. I'm unclear about 17 that. But it was certainly after the first failure, for 18 sure. I'm absolutely positive about that. 19 Q But it would obviously have made more sense if 20 this was something that was being considered, for you to 21 have made this statement? 22 A I suppose one could make that inferential leap. 23 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Dandar asked you whether you knew 24 about all of the money. And you said no. 25 And I take it you said no because you didn't know
142 1 about the $500,000 and the $250,000 checks. Correct? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q But you did know ?? or you believed you knew ?? 4 about all of the other money. Correct? 5 A I had a pretty good sense and feel for it. 6 Q Right. And, in fact, Mr. Dandar had told you that 7 he had received a couple of hundred thousand dollars from 8 Mr. Minton in May of 2001. You knew that? 9 A I did know that. 10 Q Right. And ?? and ?? and is it correct that you 11 were told at that ?? you know, by August, that ?? what? 12 What did Mr. Dandar tell you about that? Why couldn't you 13 get paid? 14 A He told me ?? 15 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Privilege. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he opened it up, your 17 Honor. He asked Dr. Garko ?? he left the impression 18 that Dr. Garko hadn't been told about any of this 19 money. In fact, Dr. Garko, I believe, had been told 20 about all of the money except for the $750,000. 21 THE COURT: I think to that extent I'm going to 22 let him answer that. 23 A The question was ?? I'm sorry, could you repeat? 24 THE REPORTER: "Question: Right. And ?? 25 and ?? and is it correct that you were told at
143 1 that ?? you know, by August, that ?? what? What did 2 Mr. Dandar tell you about that? Why couldn't you 3 get paid?" 4 THE COURT: No wonder he doesn't remember the 5 question. 6 MR. WEINBERG: That is why I didn't remember 7 it. 8 THE COURT: Maybe you just want to ask it 9 again. Okay? 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Why couldn't you get paid in August of 2001 if 12 Mr. Dandar had received ?? the evidence is ?? $250,000 from 13 a personal check of Mr. Minton in May of 2001? 14 A In September of 2001 ?? late August, early 15 September ?? I think it was September ?? Mr. Dandar told me 16 that there wasn't any more money and he was unable to pay 17 me. 18 Q And did you ask him, since you had known about the 19 $250,000, how that could be? 20 MR. DANDAR: Wait. Isn't that privileged now? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm not asking about how 22 he spent it on the case. I'm really not interested 23 in that. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q Had it been used for some other purpose?
144 1 MR. DANDAR: Privilege. 2 THE COURT: This is very ?? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 4 THE COURT: ?? uncomfortable because of that 5 other area where I entered that order. I don't know 6 what his answer is going to be, so I hate for him to 7 blurt out something that would be ?? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, it is fine. 9 THE COURT: Let me see if I can ask him this 10 question. 11 How much is it ?? in your mind, before you knew 12 about it, $250,000 and the $500,000, how much did 13 you think Mr. Minton had given either Mr. ?? this is 14 at issue ?? to either Mr. Dandar or had given the 15 estate in this case? 16 THE WITNESS: About a million and some change, 17 your Honor. That was always my impression, it was a 18 million and some change. 19 THE COURT: Well, when you say change, there 20 was a time when it was $1,050,000. You and I ?? 21 THE WITNESS: I think it was like a 22 million?fifty, yes. 23 THE COURT: So change to some people is a 24 nickel or a dime. 25 THE WITNESS: I know, your Honor.
145 1 THE COURT: To you it is $50,000? 2 THE WITNESS: Absolutely ?? no. 3 THE COURT: But you thought the amount given 4 was $1,050,000, right? 5 THE WITNESS: I did. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Dr. Garko, was it your understanding that the 9 money that Mr. Dandar received or the estate received from 10 Mr. Minton was supposed to be used to defray expenses in the 11 case? 12 A That was my understanding. 13 Q Did ?? were you told by anyone that Mr. Dandar 14 could use the money for personal expenses? 15 MR. DANDAR: Privilege. Relevancy. 16 THE COURT: Well, the relevancy is certainly 17 overruled. And I'm going to perhaps exclude 18 Mr. Dandar from that. I mean, if he had a 19 conversation with him, it may be work product. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 21 THE COURT: I mean, I know he ?? he sat through 22 the depositions. I know Mr. Minton said that in 23 depositions. Of course, he said something else in 24 the same deposition. But ?? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me ask it a different
146 1 way. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Did you believe that Mr. Dandar could use that 4 money any way he pleased, including for personal expenses? 5 A That was not my understanding. 6 Q Now, you did not participate in every phone call 7 that Mr. Dandar had with Mr. Minton. Correct? 8 A That is probably true. Yeah. 9 Q And ?? and those that you didn't participate in, 10 you have obviously no idea what Mr. Dandar, Mr. Minton, 11 talked about? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q So all you have talked about today when you were 14 asked these questions about Mr. ?? by Mr. Dandar concerning 15 conversations with Minton, all you know is any conversation 16 that you participated in? 17 A Well, not participated in, but I was maybe in the 18 room and overheard it. I never was on a three?way with 19 Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar. But, you know, by participation, 20 if you mean in the room or wherever when he was carrying on 21 a conversation with him, yes, those are things he asked me 22 about. 23 Q Well, would you be on a speakerphone? Or was it 24 just you would hear Mr. Dandar's part of the conversation? 25 A I just heard Mr. Dandar's side of the
147 1 conversation. 2 Q Now, you were aware that for a period of time 3 Jesse Prince was working on the case but being paid by the 4 LMT? You knew that? 5 A I do remember. 6 Q And you remember for a period of time Ms. Brooks 7 would show up at depos that you would go to and show up at 8 hearings but was being paid by the LMT, you knew that? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Just one moment, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q I heard you ?? I mean, Mr. Dandar asked you about 14 some conversation with Jesse Prince in February of 2002 15 about meeting with Minton ?? Mr. Minton, I'm sorry ?? and 16 funding. What was that all about? 17 A I don't ?? I don't recall the question Mr. Dandar 18 asked me. 19 Q He said something about Mr. Prince supposedly 20 coming and ?? and conveying ?? I don't know, something about 21 a message regarding Mr. Minton. If you don't remember ?? 22 there was some ?? there was some testimony about it. 23 A Yes. 24 THE COURT: Staying away from Patricia 25 Greenway.
148 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q Do you remember what you were ?? 3 A I recall something about, you know, Mr. Prince 4 giving Mr. Dandar some ?? some instruction or ?? not 5 instruction, but saying ?? I'm just not clear. I need some 6 help with what you are specifically referring to. I'm a 7 little foggy. I know it was just a little while ago but I 8 just can't remember. 9 Q Well, is this something Mr. Dandar told you and 10 you were not present for? 11 A I think I was present. I think I was present. 12 Q Okay. But if it was ?? was it in 2002? 13 A Mr. Weinberg, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I ?? 14 Q Was it after Mr. Prince had withdrawn as an expert 15 from the case? 16 A Whew. Mmm, gosh, I don't know. I ?? I don't have 17 a clear date as to when Mr. Prince formally withdrew. I 18 think he sent a letter or something. 19 Q August of ?? August 24 or thereabouts of 2001 is 20 the testimony. Does that make any difference to you? 21 A Not really. But ?? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Could I approach, your 23 Honor? 24 THE COURT: You may. 25
149 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q This is really the last thing ?? well, you have 3 it. This is the March 30 letter, Exhibit ?? Plaintiff's 4 Exhibit 76. 5 A Okay. 6 Q Now, if you go to Page 2 of that letter ?? 7 A Okay. 8 Q ?? at the second paragraph, Mr. Dandar says to 9 Mr. Minton: "Dell and her family will never make a deal 10 with the devil. You should not be so foolish to do so 11 either. The devil will never honor its deal." 12 Is that something you wrote? 13 A No. 14 Q Then in the fourth paragraph down that starts, 15 "You need to get your life in order, Bob." 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you see that? 18 A I do. 19 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to object. This is 20 asking him what he edited or didn't edit what I did, 21 what I didn't do, so I think the document speaks for 22 itself as the document. 23 THE COURT: I think if you start asking him did 24 you not do this and did you not do this, you exclude 25 enough, then you are going to know what he edited,
150 1 then you get into the work product. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not really getting into the 3 editing. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q Let me ask the question. The last sentence ?? the 7 last sentence: "I am outraged, but then I have no respect 8 for anyone who works for Scientology." 9 Now, is that anything that you and Mr. Dandar 10 discussed with Mr. Minton at any point during this case, 11 that you have no respect for anyone who works for 12 Scientology? Or that ?? don't do a deal with the devil? Do 13 you remember anything like that? 14 A Not really. I mean ?? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions, your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Anything further? 18 MR. DANDAR: Just quickly. Quick. 19 RECROSS?EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Your concern about direct evidence, smoking gun 22 evidence ?? 23 A Right? 24 Q ?? about adding David Miscavige ?? 25 A Right, as we talked.
151 1 Q ?? that doesn't have anything to do with 2 circumstantial evidence in your mind, does it? 3 A No. No. Direct evidence. Concrete, empirical 4 evidence. 5 Q All right. Did ?? did you ever hear from any 6 source that Bob Minton was paying me either bonuses or money 7 to add on David Miscavige? 8 THE COURT: Asked and answered. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton say that I need to 12 emphasize the Scientology aspects of the case? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope of 14 my redirect, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Well, that is true. The problem is 16 I'm not sure, you know ?? is that your last 17 question? 18 MR. DANDAR: That is it. 19 THE COURT: I'm going to let that one question 20 be asked then. 21 MR. DANDAR: Wait. 22 THE COURT: You didn't get an answer. Did you 23 not care about it? 24 MR. DANDAR: I did. 25 A The answer is no.
152 1 THE COURT: Is that it? 2 MR. DANDAR: No. No. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Dr. Garko, did you find out about money given to 5 me by Bob Minton through testimony or from another source? 6 A Money? You will need to be more specific. 7 Q Did you find out about money given to me by Bob 8 Minton through testimony? Or from someone telling you? 9 THE COURT: I don't even get your question. 10 Are you talking about ?? is this how he found out 11 how much Bob Minton had given you, whether it was by 12 sitting at the deposition ?? 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. 14 THE COURT: ?? or by some other means? 15 MR. DANDAR: Right. 16 MR. WEINBERG: You mean absent ?? you mean 17 setting aside the $750,000? Is that what you're 18 asking? 19 THE COURT: Well, I guess did you learn these 20 things at a deposition as far as how much money he 21 had been given? 22 THE WITNESS: No, I did not, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: You learned it in some other 24 fashion? 25 THE WITNESS: I did.
153 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q And how did you learn it from some other fashion? 4 A You. 5 Q Me? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you ever know that Stacy Brooks was the spy 8 for Bob Minton in my office? 9 A I ?? I read that in her affidavit. And I was 10 surprised. 11 Q Did you ever think that Stacy Brooks was breaching 12 her fiduciary duty in talking to Bob Minton about anything 13 that she and I discussed? 14 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to object. Beyond the 15 scope. 16 THE COURT: That is beyond the scope. And, 17 besides that, fiduciary duties and breaches, I'm not 18 sure this is the right witness to ask that question. 19 MR. DANDAR: All right. I don't know if I 20 asked this so someone will correct me if I did. 21 THE COURT: You said you only had one more 22 question. 23 MR. DANDAR: This is the last question. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Oh?oh. 25 MR. DANDAR: Never mind.
154 1 MR. WEINBERG: We have no further questions, 2 your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir. You 4 may step down. 5 (WHEREUPON, the witness is excused.) 6 THE COURT: Okay. When did we take a break? 7 MR. WEINBERG: A long time ago. 8 THE COURT: I feel bad because I know you have 9 a lawyer here to put on, and I don't know if we're 10 going to ?? you'd indicated she would be almost all 11 day today. Is she prepared to stay over? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, no, she's prepared to stay 13 over tomorrow. We need to get done tomorrow. And 14 we should get done tomorrow. 15 THE COURT: So, in other words, I don't have to 16 go like I did with the last lawyer that was here, 17 into the evening so we finish? 18 MR. WEINBERG: I suppose I need to ask her. 19 THE COURT: Let's take a break until 4. If we 20 don't have to go until we're done, that is 21 wonderful. If we do because she's a lawyer and 22 because I understand lawyers have other things to 23 do, I will stay late and do that. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 25 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 3:48 p.m.
155 1 to 4:07 p.m.) 2 ______________________________________ 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
156 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 11th day of June, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25