Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 1 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 1 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Monique Yingling. 17 DATE: June 11, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25
2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 12 Organization. 13 MR. LEE FUGATE, 14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 17 18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 19 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 22 23 24 25
3 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 3 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 4 Attorney for Robert Minton. 5 MR. LANSING C. SCRIVEN 6 Lansing C. Scriven, P.A. 442 W. Kennedy Boulevard 7 Suite 280 Tampa, Florida 33606 8 Counsel for Michael Garko. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
4 1 THE COURT: You may call your next witness. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, Ms. Yingling, your Honor. 3 THE BAILIFF: Ma'am, would you step forward, 4 please. Face the judge, raise your right hand, 5 please. 6 (Witness sworn.) 7 THE WITNESS: I do, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: You may lower your hand. 9 THE BAILIFF: Have a seat in the witness box. 10 The witness is sworn and seated, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Thank you. You may proceed. 12 ____________________________________ 13 MONIQUE YINGLING, 14 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 15 and testified as follows: 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Thank you, can you state and spell your name for 19 the record, please? 20 A Monique Yingling. M-O-N-I-Q-U-E, Y-I-N-G-L-I-N-G. 21 Q How are you employed? 22 A I'm an attorney in private practice in Washington, 23 D.C. with the law firm of Zuckert, Scoutt & Rasenberger. 24 THE COURT: Maybe you better spell that. 25 THE WITNESS: Z-U-C-K-E-R-T, Scoutt,
5 1 S-C-O-U-T-T, & Rasenberger, R-A-S-E-N-B-E-R-G-E-R. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q And how long have you been with that firm? 4 A I have been with that firm since 1983. 5 Q And how long have you been in practice? 6 A I graduated from law school in 1977. 7 Q And can you tell us briefly where you went to 8 college and law school? 9 A I went to undergraduate at Vassar College in 10 Poughkeepsie, New York, and I went to law school at the 11 University of Tennessee in Knoxville. And I also have an 12 LLM in taxation from Georgetown University in Washington. 13 Q Can you describe the nature of your practice? 14 A I have a practice that has an emphasis on tax and 15 corporate matters, with particular emphasis on tax 16 controversy matters and tax exemption. But I also practice 17 in other areas from time to time. 18 Q And do you have a number of clients? 19 A I do. 20 Q Okay. Prior to the private practice -- which I 21 think you said you began around 1983, is that correct? 22 A That is correct. 23 Q -- what did you do? 24 A I served in the United States Department of 25 Justice in Washington, D.C. as a trial attorney.
6 1 Q Okay. In what section? 2 A I was in the Tax Division of the Department of 3 Justice. 4 Q And any particular emphasis, as far as whether it 5 was civil or criminal? 6 A I was in the civil -- at that time the Department 7 of Justice had -- the tax division had a criminal section 8 and civil section. And I was in one of the civil sections. 9 And I was in a section that actually dealt with 10 settlements of large cases. Whenever there is refund 11 requests made to the Treasury of large amounts, there are 12 jurisdictional requirements that settlements have to be 13 approved, in some cases all of the way up to the Attorney 14 General and other cases by the Joint Committee on Taxation. 15 So my section dealt primarily with negotiating and 16 processing settlements. 17 Q Now, have you represented various Churches of 18 Scientology? 19 A Yes, I have. 20 Q Now, how long have you represented -- when I say 21 the Church of Scientology -- I'm talking about the various 22 churches. 23 A Since 1986. 24 Q And can you describe briefly or generally what you 25 have done for them. I mean, what is the nature of your
7 1 practice? 2 A Well, I have represented them in a variety of tax 3 matters, at the state level, at the federal level, and 4 internationally. 5 I was involved in the negotiations with the 6 Internal Revenue Service that ultimately culminated, in 7 1993, in all Churches of Scientology in the U.S. being 8 recognized as tax exempt, as well as some entities in the 9 non-U.S. and many church-related organizations throughout 10 the world. 11 I have also represented them with respect to 12 religious recognition issues outside of this country. And 13 through that work, I have gotten involved in human rights 14 issues, discrimination issues. 15 I have been involved in contract matters, 16 personnel matters, and I have been involved in helping to 17 facilitate settlements in a large number of cases. 18 Q And can you describe what different Churches of 19 Scientology you have represented over the years? 20 A I have represented many Churches of Scientology in 21 the U.S., if not most. I have represented the Church in New 22 York; the churches here in Florida, Miami, here in 23 Clearwater; many churches in California, Chicago, 24 Washington, D.C., Boston. 25 And I have represented churches around the world,
8 1 the Churches of Scientology in France, Germany, in Denmark, 2 in South Africa, Greece, Italy. 3 Q Okay. Did there come a time when you were 4 involved in meetings with Robert Minton and his counsel? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And can you tell us when? 7 A In March of this year. 8 Q Do you remember specifically when in March? 9 A The first time I met with Robert Minton -- in 10 fact, the first time I ever met Robert Minton was on 11 March 28 of this year. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Now I should say, your Honor, in 13 putting Ms. Yingling on the stand, we're 14 specifically not waiving any attorney-client 15 privilege. She's only on the stand to talk about 16 non-privileged meetings with Mr. Minton and 17 Ms. Brooks and their counsel, or Mr. Minton and 18 Ms. Brooks, but not to in any way -- in any way is 19 that -- that should be not considered to be deemed a 20 waiver of the attorney-client privilege or the 21 attorney work product privilege; and I am not, and I 22 don't think counsel should be allowed, to inquire 23 into privileged communications between Ms. Yingling 24 and the client. 25 THE COURT: I understand the purpose for which
9 1 you are putting her on. I think that was somewhat 2 similar to Dr. Garko. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Exactly. 4 THE COURT: And there have been -- and 5 certainly Mr. Dandar has testified and we have 6 allowed him to assert the attorney-client privilege 7 and work product privilege. And so I see no 8 difference here. 9 MR. WEINBERG: That is the reason I said it, 10 because I was about to launch into -- 11 THE WITNESS: May I ask your Honor a question? 12 THE COURT: Yes? 13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, shall I wait for 14 counsel to raise a privilege? Or if I'm concerned 15 there is a privilege issue, should I raise it 16 myself? 17 THE COURT: You know, it is kind of unusual. 18 Lawyers, they say, make the worst witness. 19 THE WITNESS: I have never been a witness 20 before. 21 THE COURT: We'll try to make it as pleasant as 22 possible. I have. It was terrible. 23 What I would suggest is if you feel that there 24 is a privilege that he is not protecting, that you, 25 as the lawyer of the Church in other places and
10 1 areas that he is not counsel, perhaps should raise 2 it yourself. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: If that is okay. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: A little unusual. But she 7 apparently represents the Church in a more 8 broader -- in a broader concept than you do, at 9 least as -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: That would be an understatement. 11 That would be an understatement. 12 THE COURT: So I think that in fairness, if you 13 don't raise something but she feels uncomfortable, 14 at the very least she ought to be permitted to say 15 so. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q So given that, and without disclosing privileged 19 communications, can you tell us how it came to be that you 20 ended up on March 28 in a meeting with Mr. Minton and his 21 counsel in New York? 22 A I was asked to attend that meeting by Mr. Mike 23 Rinder. 24 Q Okay. Now, prior to the meeting, had you had any 25 conversations at all with Mr. Minton?
11 1 A No. I had not. 2 Q And prior to the meeting, had you had any 3 conversations with Mr. Minton's counsel? 4 A No, I had not. 5 Q Okay. Where was the March 28 meeting? 6 A The March 28 meeting was at the New York offices 7 of Paul Hastings in Manhattan. Specifically, in a 8 conference room there. 9 Q Who was in attendance at the meeting? 10 A Mr. Minton; Ms. Stacy Brooks; Mr. Minton's 11 counsel, Steve Jonas, from a firm in Boston, I believe Hale 12 & Dorr; and Mr. Rosen, Mr. Sandy Rosen, from Paul Hastings; 13 I was there; and Mr. Mike Rinder. 14 Q Who is Mike Rinder, for the record? 15 A Mike Rinder is an official with the Church of 16 Scientology International. 17 THE COURT: And he was your client at this 18 meeting? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, he was, your Honor. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q And Mr. Rosen's -- Mr. Rosen is another lawyer who 22 has represented the various Churches of Scientology? 23 A That is correct, primarily in litigation. 24 Q Now, who at this meeting generally -- this meeting 25 on March 28, who spoke for Mr. Minton's side of the table?
12 1 A Primarily, Mr. Jonas. 2 Q He's the lawyer from Boston? 3 A That is correct. 4 Q And who spoke for the Church's side of the table? 5 A Mr. Rinder spoke and Mr. Rosen spoke primarily. 6 Q Did you have a speaking role, for the most part? 7 A I did speak on occasion. But I -- I was not the 8 primary speaker from our side of the table. 9 Q Now, do you know, was it explained to you at the 10 meeting what Ms. Brooks was doing there? 11 A It was not explained at the meeting. No. 12 Q Can you describe to us how the meeting started, 13 and -- and what happened? 14 A The meeting started with introductions and -- and 15 pleasantries. And then Mike Rinder spoke. 16 Q And -- and tell the Court what -- if you can 17 recall, what Mike Rinder said. 18 A Mike said that he had spoken to Bob Minton. That 19 Bob Minton had called him about wanting to get together to 20 try to settle all outstanding issues between the Churches of 21 Scientology around the country -- or around the world, for 22 that matter -- and Mr. Minton. And that we were prepared 23 to -- to discuss that possibility with him. 24 And that our goal, meaning the Church of 25 Scientology's goal, was that if we were to reach a
13 1 settlement, that there would be a complete disengagement 2 between the parties. Apparently when they had a telephone 3 call before the meeting Mr. Minton had said that that was 4 his goal, and perhaps they would send Christmas cards or 5 something like that in the future. And I remember 6 Mr. Rinder saying specifically that he did not even want to 7 get a Christmas card from Mr. Minton. 8 And then Mr. Minton -- Mr. Rinder said that he was 9 happy to have them go first and let us know what their 10 position was. 11 And I believe Mr. Jonas said that he would prefer 12 to hear from our side of the table first. 13 Q All right. And then did somebody from -- from the 14 Church's side of the table set forth what it was that the 15 Church wanted to accomplish? 16 A Yes. Mr. Rinder did that. 17 Q Okay. Can you -- can you list for us what you 18 recall Mr. Rinder saying? 19 A He spoke about several areas that he thought 20 needed to be covered in any overall settlement. 21 He said that all outstanding litigation that 22 Mr. Rinder was involved in -- 23 Q Mr. Minton? 24 A I'm sorry, Mr. Minton was involved in would have 25 to go away.
14 1 And he said specifically the cases down here in 2 Florida. I believe he referred specifically to the Lawrence 3 Wollersheim matter. He also referred specifically to cases 4 that were ongoing in France and in Germany. But he made it 5 clear that there would have to be -- all of these cases 6 would have to go away, because Mr. Minton was intimately 7 involved in those cases, and so long as those cases were 8 ongoing, there could not be a disengagement. 9 Q Okay. Do you recall -- do you recall any other -- 10 terms is too strong a word -- but any other things that 11 Mr. Rinder said needed to be resolved? 12 A Yes. That was just the first area was the 13 litigation. 14 Q Okay. 15 A The second area had to do with witnesses, that 16 Mr. Minton had been paying to, in the Church's view, provide 17 false testimony in litigation against the Church around the 18 country. And I think there were specific witnesses that 19 were mentioned who provided affidavits, including Stacy 20 Brooks, Vaughn Young and Jesse Prince. 21 That was the second area. 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I'm a little confused. 23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 24 THE COURT: You say what about these witnesses? 25 What was going to have to happen?
15 1 THE WITNESS: That there would have to be some 2 resolution of the affidavits that they had filed so 3 that assuming we could reach a settlement where 4 there was a disengagement in the future, these 5 affidavits wouldn't be popping up in other 6 litigation and then causing the parties to have to 7 come together again to try to resolve that issue. 8 So that there needed to be some -- some 9 resolution with respect to that. 10 THE COURT: And the three witnesses mentioned 11 were Mr. Prince, Ms. Brooks and -- 12 THE WITNESS: Vaughn Young, your Honor. Those 13 were the three I remember that were mentioned. 14 There may have been others. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 A The third area that Mr. Rinder mentioned was the 17 question of the Lisa McPherson Trust. And that it needed to 18 be dissolved or done away with or -- or whatever. 19 And I understood that there was a website, also, 20 that the trust had. And that the Church would also want 21 that to -- to go away. 22 Mmm, the -- the next area, I think, had to do with 23 the movie, The Profit. And I don't -- I think what 24 Mr. Rinder said was he didn't know what Mr. Minton's rights 25 were with respect to that movie, but we would have to have
16 1 some resolution about that movie and what was going to 2 happen with it. 3 I think there was also some question about domain 4 names. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q What does that mean? 7 A Names to be used for Internet websites is what I 8 understand. I'm not a computer person. But I understand 9 that there are -- you can reserve names for -- for websites 10 on computers or domains on computers, and that there had 11 been names reserved using what Scientology believed to be 12 copyrighted or trademarked terms, like having "Scientology" 13 in them or something like that. So they wanted those domain 14 names either turned over to the Church or somehow done away 15 with. 16 The next area was just general what would have to 17 be the terms of a settlement. And -- and that they would 18 include mutual releases and -- and confidentiality, I 19 believe. 20 Q Okay. Did -- after -- after Mr. Rinder went 21 through these different areas, was there any response at 22 that point from Mr. Jonas, Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks? Or was 23 there a further presentation? 24 A Mr. Jonas said that he wanted to hear what the 25 Church's position was with respect to the outstanding
17 1 litigation that they believed Mr. Minton was involved in. 2 Q Okay. And was there another presentation at that 3 point? 4 A Yes, there was. 5 Q And who made that one? 6 A Sandy Rosen. 7 Q And do you recall what Mr. Rosen said? 8 A What Mr. Rosen -- Mr. Rosen had compiled a list of 9 litigation that Mr. Minton had been involved in, either -- 10 or was involved in, I should say, either through funding or 11 through some other means. And -- and he went through that 12 list and he attached dollar amounts to the different areas 13 of litigation. 14 It wasn't just litigation. It really was -- the 15 presentation that Mr. Rosen was making was an illustration 16 of the damage that the Church believed that Mr. Minton had 17 caused, both through litigation and by causing the Church to 18 expend resources in other areas, as well. 19 And -- but it did start out with a list of cases. 20 And -- and there was some discussion about each case and 21 what the Church believed Mr. Minton's involvement to be. 22 And then there was some estimate of what the Church believed 23 it had expended with respect to that litigation and what it 24 might expect to expend in the future if it continued on. 25 Q Okay. And do you recall -- well, tell us what you
18 1 recall the cases and these other items of -- of damage were. 2 A I recall that there was the Florida cases, which 3 included the wrongful death case and the breach cases. And 4 then there was the related breach case in Texas. 5 There was the Wollersheim case. There was the 6 Armstrong matter. There was the Lopez matter. There was 7 the Henson matter. There was the Grady Ward matter. Mmm, 8 there was the litigation that was ongoing in France and 9 in -- in Germany. 10 There was the IRS harassment matter. There was 11 expenditures that the Church had incurred to do research 12 with respect to possible violations of RICO. And there were 13 expenditures that had been made with respect to security, 14 primarily in Florida, but also in other places around the 15 country where Mr. Minton had been involved in picketing at 16 churches; I believe in Florida and in Washington, D.C., in 17 Toronto, in Boston, and in those areas where there had been 18 those pickets, the Church had expended resources in order to 19 protect its stand, its property or whatever. 20 Q And for most of these matters, if not all of the 21 matters, Mr. Rosen would attribute some dollar amount that 22 had either been spent or was anticipated to be spent? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q And was there a bottom-line figure that Mr. Rosen 25 told the other side?
19 1 A No. I -- I recall that Bob Minton asked him for a 2 total. But there was no specific total that was -- that was 3 provided. I don't know if Sandy Rosen hadn't added it up or 4 not, but there was no total. 5 Q You said an IRS harassment. What is that? 6 It's -- that is an harassment of the Church? 7 A Yes. The Churches of Scientology. Yes, there had 8 been multiple requests for -- for information from Churches 9 of Scientology all around the country asking for information 10 about their tax-exempt status and information from their 11 tax-exempt files and so on. 12 And the Church had determined that these requests 13 were being made for the purpose of harassment because they 14 were duplicitous and the same requests were being sent to 15 many, if not all, of the Churches of Scientology around the 16 country. 17 And there is a mechanism by which -- normally 18 tax-exempt organizations do have to provide certain 19 information to anybody who asks. There are provisions in 20 the Internal Revenue code that require that. But if a 21 tax-exempt organization deems that the information is being 22 requested for harassment purposes, it can ask the IRS to 23 determine that it's just being made for harassment purposes 24 and, therefore, not have to provide the information. 25 So that -- that was the -- the --
20 1 Q And there -- and Mr. Rosen indicated to Mr. Minton 2 and his counsel that it was the Church's belief that 3 Mr. Minton had been behind that? 4 A No, not Mr. Minton specifically. But the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust. In the Church's mind, the Lisa McPherson 6 Trust was not separated from -- from Robert Minton. 7 Q Now, during this -- go ahead. 8 THE WITNESS: I forgot. I had some water, your 9 Honor. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Could I get her water? 11 THE COURT: Surely you can. No problem. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q Now, during any of the meetings -- in any of the 14 meetings either on the 28th or the 29th -- and we're going 15 to finish this meeting and we'll go to the 29th, as well -- 16 but I wanted to ask you this question up front. During any 17 of the meetings with Mr. Jonas and Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks 18 in New York, did you, Mr. Rosen or Mr. Rinder threaten Mr. 19 Minton with IRS violations? 20 A No, we did not. 21 Q Did you threaten him with turning him in for money 22 laundering? 23 A No, we did not. 24 Q Did you -- did you, that is, any of you-all, 25 present to him a draft RICO suit?
21 1 A No. 2 Q And you mentioned it as you went by, but can you 3 just explain how was it that RICO came up at all? 4 A RICO came up in the context of Mr. Rosen saying 5 that the Church had undertaken some research to see if there 6 might be a viable RICO claim against Mr. Minton and -- and 7 other individuals because of the way that they were using 8 litigation to try to destroy the Church of Scientology 9 around the country. 10 And that he attached a figure to the lawyers' fees 11 that had been incurred for doing that research. 12 Q That was part of the damage? 13 A Yes. That is correct. 14 Q Now, prior to this meeting -- these meetings in 15 New York on the 28th and 29th of March, did you have any 16 evidence that Mr. Minton had given those Swiss checks to 17 Mr. Dandar? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you have any evidence, prior to these 20 meetings, that Mr. Minton actually had evaded taxes? 21 A No. 22 Q Or had committed any crimes? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you, Mr. Rosen or Mr. Rinder threaten 25 Mr. Minton during these meetings?
22 1 A No. 2 Q Can you describe, from your perspective, as you 3 were sitting there, the tone of Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen's 4 comments as they were going through these lists? 5 A It was very matter of fact. It was simply laying 6 out, for purposes of settlement conference, what the 7 position was. 8 And the Church's position was laid out by 9 Mr. Rinder in terms of what issues we felt needed to be 10 addressed, and by Mr. Rosen in terms of what damage the 11 Church had in mind that Mr. Minton had caused coming into 12 the settlement negotiations. 13 Q Now, there has been some testimony about setting 14 the record straight -- 15 MR. DANDAR: Objection. I vehemently object to 16 this. This is leading his own witness. He's now 17 using a phrase that he's putting into her mouth. 18 And I object to him talking about prior testimony. 19 This is highly objectionable. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Why? 21 MR. DANDAR: Because this is the first time 22 that phrase has been introduced to this witness in 23 this courtroom. 24 THE COURT: Well, I think what he was saying is 25 there has been some discussion about it. Your
23 1 vehement objection is overruled. 2 MR. DANDAR: Sorry. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q What I was going to ask you is at any time during 5 the first meeting, the meetings in New York on the 28th and 6 the 29th, did you or Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen tell Mr. Minton 7 that he had to come clean or set the record straight or 8 anything like that? 9 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Leading. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. The question can be 11 answered yes or no. 12 MR. DANDAR: It suggests an answer. 13 THE COURT: I don't really know what her answer 14 is going to be so it certainly can't be leading 15 because I would know her answer if it were leading. 16 A I don't recall that those phrases were 17 specifically used at that -- at that meeting on the 28th or 18 at the 29th. 19 However, I do believe that in subsequent 20 discussions that we had with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, that 21 those expressions were used. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q We'll get to those after we leave New York, is 24 that correct? 25 A That is right.
24 1 Q Now, was there any discussion about the contempt 2 hearings during this meeting? 3 A Yes, there was. 4 Q Can you tell us what that discussion was. 5 A Well, the initial discussion about the contempt 6 hearings had to do with the -- the Florida litigation in 7 general, and that this was part of the Florida litigation, 8 and the things that were going on and the things that had to 9 be resolved and so on. 10 That was just touched on in general when 11 Mr. Rinder gave his presentation. 12 The contempt proceedings were -- were also 13 discussed at other points in the meeting. Specifically on 14 the second day, I remember -- I'm trying to remember if 15 there was something else on the -- on the 28th where it 16 might have come up. 17 Q All right. Now, after Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen 18 made their presentations, what did Mr. Jonas, Minton, 19 Brooks, say? 20 A Well, I believe they took a break. I think we 21 took a break at that point and they said they wanted to -- 22 to talk among themselves. And so they took a break. 23 Q And did they come back and then say something? 24 A Mmm, yes, they did. They -- they came back and 25 they -- they had some questions about the litigation and --
25 1 and what the Church believed to have been Mr. Minton's 2 involvement, and they made some comments about whether they 3 agreed that he had been involved in all this litigation or 4 had caused it or so on and so forth, and their views 5 differed with respect to some of the litigation. 6 And I think that was about the extent of their 7 comments at that time. 8 Q Okay. And who was speaking at that time? 9 A Mr. Jonas. 10 Q And at some point during the meeting did 11 Mr. Jonas, on behalf of Mr. Minton, make some demands? 12 A Yes, he did. 13 Q All right. What did he demand? 14 A Mmm, he said that he was happy to have heard our 15 list of what we wanted to achieve through a settlement, and 16 that they also had a list -- Mr. Minton also had a list. 17 And he then -- then proceeded to set out his list. 18 Q Okay. Can you tell us what his list was? 19 A Mmm, his -- the best I recall. 20 His list included he also wanted to no longer be 21 involved in any litigation, wanted to be dropped from any 22 suits that he -- he had been named in as a defendant, and 23 did not want to be named as a defendant in any -- any other 24 lawsuits. 25 Mmm, he wanted to, to the extent he thought that
26 1 there was -- the Church had undertaken investigations having 2 to do with him and his involvement vis-a-vis the Church, he 3 wanted any of those investigations to stop. 4 To the extent he believed that the Church had been 5 providing information to other investigative agencies, 6 particularly -- particularly he mentioned something about a 7 suit involving Nigeria, that he wanted that stopped. 8 He said that Mr. Minton expected to be compensated 9 for all of the money that he had spent in the litigation in 10 Florida, the money that he had given to Mr. Dandar. 11 He expected to either be able to sell or to sell 12 to the Church Jesse Prince's house and the Lisa McPherson 13 Trust building. 14 Mmm, I think that is about it. 15 Q And did somebody for the Church respond to these 16 demands that you have just set out in this first meeting 17 that Mr. Jonas made on behalf of Mr. Minton? 18 A Only in general. I think that we responded in the 19 same way that Mr. Jonas had responded to the Church's list, 20 being to give our views with respect to specific things that 21 had been stated. 22 Of course, we were all in agreement if we were 23 going to have complete disengagement, all of the litigation 24 would have to stop. So that wasn't a problem. 25 With respect to any ongoing investigations, the
27 1 one thing I remember was that we just all sort of laughed 2 and said that if Mr. Minton thought that somehow the Church 3 could control the government of Nigeria, he was mistaken. 4 And we talked about also with respect to the 5 financial demands that were being made, that -- that 6 Mr. Minton was -- was, Mmm -- I don't remember the exact 7 term that was used -- but something that conveyed that he 8 didn't have all his sanity if he thought the Church was 9 going to pay him money or reimburse him for the money that 10 he had paid to Mr. Dandar. 11 So it was comments of that nature. I wouldn't say 12 that with respect to either side there was a firm response, 13 "Well, you want A and you're not going to get A, you want B 14 and you're not going to get B." It was nothing like that. 15 It was more back-and-forth discussions about the areas that 16 had been put on the table. 17 Q And was there any discussion about Mr. Minton 18 being a deep pocket or something like that? 19 A Yes. There was discussion about that. There was 20 discussion about that. I think it may well have come up 21 initially by Mr. Rosen, when he was talking about the 22 litigation and the state of the litigation that had evolved 23 from the wrongful death case down here, the fact that the 24 Church had an award for damages in the breach case, and that 25 they were looking for a substantial award for attorney fees.
28 1 This was in the case in Texas. And that they also 2 anticipated getting a substantial award in the -- in the 3 case in Clearwater. And that -- that it was clear to the 4 Church that the estate expected that Mr. Minton was going 5 to -- to have to pay those damages because he was the deep 6 pocket. 7 And there may also have been some discussion about 8 that with respect to the Church's counterclaim, as well, the 9 counterclaim in this case, that the Church would be looking 10 to him as the deep pocket. 11 Q Now, after this interchange between the Church and 12 Mr. Minton as to what each's purpose and demands were, what 13 happened? I mean, what happened in the meeting? 14 A Well, there was another break that was taken, I 15 believe. And -- and Mr. Jonas then came back and said that, 16 well, they had a lot to think about, and they wanted to make 17 some phone calls, and they weren't sure whether it would be 18 fruitful to -- to continue the discussions or not. 19 But we were right in the middle of Passover at 20 that point in time. And Mr. Rosen was going to a Passover 21 seder, so the meeting had to end early that evening for that 22 reason. So because he was going to the seder, Mr. Jonas 23 said he would call me if he thought it would be fruitful to 24 continue discussions the next day. 25 And so we -- we left at that point and really did
29 1 not know whether we were going to meet the next day or not. 2 Q And did you hear from Mr. Jonas? 3 A I did. 4 Q And tell us approximately when and what did 5 Mr. Jonas say. 6 A Mr. Jonas called me within an hour or so after we 7 had ended the meeting and told me that he believed that it 8 would be fruitful to try to continue discussions the next 9 day. He wasn't sure how long it would take, but he thought 10 that since we were all there in New York, that we should go 11 ahead and meet. 12 So we agreed to meet again the next morning in the 13 same place, in Mr. Rosen's offices in New York. 14 Q And did the same people, that is, Ms. Brooks, 15 Mr. Minton, Mr. Jonas, you, Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen meet on 16 the morning of the 29th at the Paul Hastings offices? 17 A Yes, we did. 18 Q I didn't ask you before. Approximately how long, 19 with all of the breaks and all, did that meeting -- the 20 first meeting last? 21 A Of actual meeting time? I would say perhaps two 22 to three hours, because we took a break for more than an 23 hour, I think, in the morning. We had a long lunch, because 24 I remember Mr. Rosen taking me to a very fine restaurant in 25 New York. And we also had a break in the afternoon. And I
30 1 know we broke before five because of Mr. Rosen's -- 2 Mr. Rosen's seder plans. 3 Q And do you remember what time you-all started 4 again the next day, approximately? 5 A Probably around 9 o'clock, but I'm just not sure. 6 Q And how long did that meeting last the next day? 7 A The meeting the next day was -- was very short. 8 Q Okay. Can you describe to us what happened? 9 A Mmm, that if -- Mr. Jonas -- Mr. Jonas started off 10 the meeting and he said that they had discussed our position 11 that in order to have a complete disengagement and in order 12 to reach a settlement, that all of the litigation had to go 13 away. And particularly the cases down here in Florida, 14 because those were the cases that Mr. Minton was the most 15 intimately involved in. 16 And that they were willing to take some steps to 17 see what they could do to resolve the litigation down here. 18 And he said that he believed that those were extraordinary 19 steps but they were willing to take the steps and that they 20 had made some phone calls. 21 And I believe that we may have asked them -- I 22 don't know if it was Mr. Rosen or Mr. Rinder, but somebody 23 asked him if he had called somebody having to do with the 24 case down here. 25 And Mr. Minton told us that he had called
31 1 Mr. Dandar, and that he was going to see Mr. Dandar, I 2 believe, in Cleveland the following week. 3 And -- Mmm -- I don't think he told us anything 4 beyond that. 5 And then Mr. Jonas said that -- that while they 6 were willing to take these steps, that they believed that 7 these were extraordinary steps and, in exchange, they wanted 8 something from the Church. 9 Q And what did they say they wanted? 10 A They told -- they told us that -- Mr. -- Mr. Jonas 11 told us what they wanted was the Church to continue the 12 contempt hearing that was then pending in front of, I 13 understood, Judge Schaeffer; that there was also a contempt 14 hearing pending in front of Judge Baird; that they wanted to 15 postpone or continue the deposition of Mr. Minton that was 16 scheduled for sometime in the near future. I believe it was 17 April 8. 18 There was also a deposition scheduled of Stacy 19 Brooks that they wanted to have postponed. 20 And they also wanted an agreement that if and when 21 Dell Liebreich was deposed, that she would not be asked 22 about any settlement discussions in that deposition because 23 they told us that she wouldn't talk to them about settlement 24 if -- if she thought she was going to be deposed about it. 25 Q And was there a break in the meeting then? Or did
32 1 you-all respond at that point to what Mr. Jonas said? 2 A Mmm, we took a break. We said that we wanted to 3 discuss what they had said. 4 Q And then you came back? 5 A Then we came back. Yes. 6 Q And who spoke for you-all? 7 A Mr. Rosen. 8 Q And what do you recall that Mr. Rosen said to 9 Mr. Jonas, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks? 10 A Mr. Rosen said that we were willing to -- to not 11 question Dell Liebreich about any settlement discussions in 12 any upcoming depositions, and he said that he would 13 specifically -- specifically confirm that in writing to 14 Mr. Jonas or he would have whichever lawyer was going to 15 depose her confirm that in writing for Mr. Jonas. 16 But he said that we were not willing to continue 17 in any way the ongoing discovery in this case, that we were 18 not willing to continue the depositions, and that we were 19 not willing to continue the contempt proceedings. 20 Mr. Rosen also explained that apparently there had 21 been a hearing the day before in -- in front of, I believe, 22 your Honor, where Mr. Dandar had requested that the contempt 23 proceeding against Mr. -- Mr. Minton be put off because he 24 was going to answer the questions or something like that. 25 And Mr. Rosen reported that Judge Schaeffer had declined to
33 1 continue the contempt hearing. 2 He was explaining this to say not only were we not 3 willing to do it, but he didn't believe that the judge was 4 going to allow it, either. And he explained what -- what 5 had been reported to him about the hearing the day before. 6 Mr. Rosen also said that -- and this had been 7 discussed the day before in terms of the litigation -- that 8 as, you know, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks were both aware, the 9 Church believed that there had been serious discovery abuses 10 in this case, serious abuse of process, and -- and that the 11 Church believed that there had been false affidavits filed 12 and false allegations made, and now that the Church was 13 getting to a point in the discovery where they were about to 14 get this information, there was no way that they were going 15 to continue any of the discovery. 16 Q And was there a response back? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And can you describe to the Court what that was? 19 A The response was that, well, they were very, very 20 much annoyed that we were unwilling to -- to continue the 21 discovery as they had asked. 22 And Mr. Jonas said that he didn't think that was 23 good faith for us not to be willing to -- to continue it, 24 and so he didn't think we had anything more to -- to talk 25 about.
34 1 And I specifically remember Ms. Brooks saying, 2 "Well, if you're not willing to continue my deposition, then 3 what do we have to talk about?" And, "That is not good 4 faith." 5 Both Mr. Rinder and I felt we had lots to talk 6 about and that we should continue the discussions that we 7 had started and so on. 8 They then said that they wanted to take a break. 9 And so we -- we left the room. And -- and within a few 10 minutes there was -- we were in caucusing, we left them in 11 the conference room and we went down to Mr. Rosen's office. 12 And within a few minutes the phone rang, and it was 13 Mr. Jonas saying that they were leaving. 14 And so Mr. Rinder and I went out to the elevator 15 to shake their hands and say good-bye. And that was the end 16 of the meeting. 17 Q Now, as of March 29, 2002 when those three folks 18 left the Paul Hastings offices, did you believe there would 19 be any further negotiations? 20 A I was not very optimistic that there would be 21 further negotiations at that time. 22 Q At that time when they left the offices, was there 23 any deal that had been negotiated between the Church of 24 Scientology and Mr. Minton? 25 A No.
35 1 Q At that time when they left the offices on 2 March 29, had Mr. Minton disclosed any of the information 3 that he subsequently disclosed in these affidavits 4 concerning his perjury, the checks, the secret agreement? 5 A No. 6 Q Now, where did you go on March 30th? 7 A I went to Paris. Which, incidentally, is where 8 I'm supposed to be today. As much as I like Clearwater, I 9 much prefer to be in Paris, I can assure you. 10 Q I just had to ask that question. It was on 11 business, though, right? 12 A It was on business. Right. It was on business. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I am at the end of the March 28 14 and 29 meetings, and which takes us to Clearwater. 15 And I'm about to go to -- to a completely different 16 area once Mr. Minton comes down here and the 17 meetings that take place down here. 18 Do you want me to continue? Or do you want to 19 start that in the morning? 20 THE COURT: I take it that your witness is 21 going to stay over, instead of flying to Paris 22 tonight? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: I rebooked for tomorrow night, 25 but I would like to catch a plane tomorrow.
36 1 THE COURT: What time -- 2 THE WITNESS: I need to get back to catch the 3 plane, and the last flight leaves for Washington at 4 5:30. 5 THE COURT: For Washington? 6 THE WITNESS: So I would say 4 o'clock. 7 THE COURT: You know what? You better do a 8 little bit. I don't know how long this will take, 9 but I remember when we went through it with 10 Mr. Minton, it went painfully slow. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Truthfully, I don't know how 12 long it will take, but I wanted to tell you where I 13 was. 14 Look, I would like to get it over with, too. 15 Do you think that I can take a minute or two 16 minutes? 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 (A discussion was held off the record.) 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Now, again, without disclosing confidential 21 information, while you were in Paris as of March 30 did you 22 come to learn that there was a reason -- there -- there may 23 be some reason to come back to the United States, 24 specifically to Clearwater, to meet with Mr. Minton? 25 A Yes, I did.
37 1 Q And when did you -- without disclosing, again, 2 communications, when did you learn that -- you know, that 3 there may be a need to come back? 4 A I believe it was on -- on Wednesday of that week. 5 Q And -- 6 A It was Wednesday or Thursday of that week. 7 Q And when you say that week, do you have a date? 8 A Mmm, I believe that would have been the 4th of 9 April. 10 Q Okay. And you have made an effort, by the way -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: I should tell you, Judge, last 12 night Ms. Yingling -- I was doing something else, 13 but tried to reconstruct dates, and she's filled in 14 some dates on a calendar for herself which she may 15 want to refer to, if necessary. 16 THE COURT: Sure. No problem. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Now, and did you actually come back? 19 A I did. I went from Paris to Madrid, and then I 20 flew back from Madrid to Florida on Friday, the 5th of 21 April. 22 Q Okay. And on April 6, 2002 did you meet with 23 Mr.~Minton? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 Q Okay.
38 1 THE COURT: Try to fill me in. I'm trying to 2 think, there was a weekend meeting. Are we on the 3 weekend now? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Saturday or Sunday? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Let me try to orient you as far 8 as time. You acquitted Mr.~Minton on April 5. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay? So that was the Friday. 11 I wasn't there, but I believe that was the Friday. 12 Then April 6th would be the Saturday after you had 13 acquitted Mr.~Minton. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q Where did you meet? 17 A We met at Wally Pope's office in Clearwater. 18 Q Okay. And who was present? 19 A I was there. Mr. Rinder was there. Mr.~Minton 20 was there. And Ms. Brooks was there. 21 Q Now, how did it come to pass that you and 22 Mr. Rinder met with Mr.~Minton and Ms. Brooks without their 23 attorney or attorneys present? 24 Well, are you able to answer that without 25 disclosing privileged info?
39 1 A I think I probably can. 2 Q All right. 3 A I had a call from Mr. Rinder, when I was in 4 Europe, to tell me he had had a call from Mr.~Minton, 5 telling him that he wanted to get together to continue 6 discussions. 7 And he said that Mr. Rinder told me that since 8 Mr.~Minton had been -- Mr.~Minton was going to be in Florida 9 for proceedings, would it be possible to -- to meet in 10 Florida. 11 And so Mr. Rinder had asked me if I would come to 12 Florida. And I did. 13 And when I arrived, I -- I learned that 14 Mr.~Minton's attorney, the only attorney I knew at that 15 point was Mr. Jonas, wasn't -- wasn't -- wasn't available. 16 He was coming down that weekend, but he wasn't going to be 17 available on Saturday. 18 And so I questioned, you know, whether or not we 19 could meet with him without his attorney present. And I was 20 advised that one of the other lawyers on the case had spoken 21 with the attorney that represented Mr.~Minton down here, who 22 was Bruce Howie, and had asked him whether or not he had any 23 objection to Mr.~Minton meeting without counsel present. 24 And I was advised that Mr. Howie said no, and in fact 25 provided that answer in writing.
40 1 And I was shown a copy of the letter that 2 Mr. Howie had signed. 3 Q And did you attempt to talk to Mr. Jonas? 4 A Not on that day, I did not, no. 5 Q Now, can you describe what happened in this 6 meeting at Wally Pope's office on Saturday -- it is 7 Saturday, right? 8 A It was a Saturday, yes. 9 Q On April 6? 10 A The meeting began fairly late in the afternoon in 11 Mr. Pope's office. And we had some pleasantries were 12 exchanged. There was some discussion about what had 13 happened in the hearing in front of Judge Schaeffer the day 14 before and the fact that Mr.~Minton had not been found in 15 contempt, and that he was very relieved. And -- and -- 16 Mmm -- and things of that nature. 17 And then I -- I believe Mr. Rinder asked 18 Mr.~Minton, you know, why he had wanted to meet with us. 19 And what it was that he wanted to talk about. 20 And Mr.~Minton said that -- that he -- that he 21 had -- he wanted to talk about whether or not we could 22 continue the settlement discussions. 23 And I believe Mr. Rinder asked him if he had met 24 with Mr. Dandar. 25 And Mr.~Minton said that, no, he had not, that
41 1 Mr. Dandar had -- had told him that he did not want to meet 2 with him in Cleveland because he was afraid that he might 3 have a heart attack. And so he had not met with him. 4 And he also told us that he had asked 5 Mr.~Minton -- I mean Mr.~Minton had asked Mr. Dandar to 6 dismiss the wrongful death case. And that Mr. Dandar had 7 refused. 8 And I don't know that there was much more that was 9 forthcoming at that point. 10 And at some point Mr. Rinder said, "Well, if you 11 have anything else that you want to tell us, you want to 12 tell us what -- you know, what has been going on in this 13 case, what your role has been in the case? I mean, are 14 there other things you want to tell us?" 15 And at that point I believe Ms. Brooks and 16 Mr.~Minton decided to go to dinner. And so we took a break 17 for dinner. And we came back a couple of hours later, I 18 would think. 19 Q And so -- so in the first part of the meeting, 20 nothing -- there were no disclosures that were made by 21 Mr.~Minton to you-all? 22 A That is correct. 23 Q Now, what happened after they got back from 24 dinner? Was there a further meeting? 25 A There was a further meeting. Yes.
42 1 Q Okay. Can you tell us what you remember happened? 2 A We -- we just started general discussions. And 3 within a few minutes, Mr. Minton asked if he could take a 4 smoke break. And he went outside to smoke. And then he 5 came back. 6 And he said that he had some things that he wanted 7 to tell Mr. Rinder but he felt a little uncomfortable having 8 me in the room. And he asked if I minded stepping out. 9 And I felt uncomfortable leaving Mr. Rinder alone 10 in the meetings with Mr.~Minton and Ms. Brooks. But I 11 agreed to be outside the door for purposes of him telling 12 Mr. Rinder what he wanted to tell him. 13 Q How long were you outside? 14 A Not too long. A few minutes. 15 Q And when you -- 16 A Twenty minutes. I'm not really sure. 17 Q I'm sorry. When you came back, were you filled in 18 on what had been going on? 19 A Yes. I was. 20 Q And what were you told? 21 A I was told that Mr.~Minton had provided additional 22 funds to Mr. Dandar that he had not testified about in the 23 past, and that he had, in fact, lied about. 24 And he told us specifically that there were two 25 checks, one for $500,000 and one for $250,000, that he had
43 1 caused to be issued by a bank in Switzerland. 2 He told us that he had lied about whether or not 3 he had ever attended a meeting in which there was a 4 discussion on the question of whether or not David Miscavige 5 should be added to the wrongful death litigation. 6 And he told us that he had lied about whether or 7 not there was an agreement for the bulk of the proceeds -- 8 any proceeds that might be derived from the wrongful death 9 litigation to be paid on his behalf to some anti-cult 10 organization, specifically, the Lisa McPherson Trust. 11 Q And your reaction to all this was what? 12 A Shock. 13 Q And what happened after these disclosures by 14 Mr.~Minton as to the money, the -- the meeting concerning 15 David Miscavige and the agreement? 16 A Well, there was general discussion about it. 17 We -- we asked questions to -- to try to get additional 18 information. And we also asked Mr.~Minton why he was -- was 19 telling us this. 20 Q What did he say? 21 A He told us that he -- Mmm, he realized that he had 22 committed perjury and that he was going to be required to 23 tell the truth in the deposition that was upcoming and 24 the -- and the contempt proceedings and so forth. And that 25 the truth was going to come out. And -- and so he -- he was
44 1 telling us. 2 He also told us that he -- he felt that he had 3 been lied to and that he had been used, and he couldn't 4 believe that lawyers that he had been dealing with, 5 specifically, Ken Dandar and John Merrett, had let him get 6 into this situation. 7 Q And at that point, this first meeting, did you 8 believe it, what he was saying? 9 A I didn't know what to believe. I didn't know what 10 to believe at that time. I certainly was skeptical about -- 11 about some of the things that he was saying. 12 And I, of course, asked him if he had copies of 13 the checks. And -- and that we would like to see the 14 checks. 15 Q And what did he say? 16 A He said he didn't have copies of them but he 17 believed that he could get copies of them. 18 Q Okay. Ultimately, he did get copies of them, 19 correct? 20 A Yes, he did. Ultimately, he did get copies of 21 them and he did provide them to us. 22 Q Now, did that -- was that the end of the meeting, 23 or did it go on? 24 A No, the meeting actually continued a little later 25 that evening. We were in Wally Pope's office. And the
45 1 arrangement, I understood, with Mr. Pope was that there 2 needed to be somebody from the office there whenever we were 3 using the facilities, the conference room. And the person 4 who was baby-sitting the office, so to speak, needed to go 5 home. So we continued the meeting at an -- in a conference 6 room at a hotel. 7 Q And do you remember which hotel? 8 A I believe it was the Hilton Hotel on the beach, 9 but I'm not exactly sure. 10 Q All right. And do you remember any -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: You were looking at me, I wasn't 12 quite sure -- 13 THE COURT: No. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q But do you remember any specific -- do you have 16 any specific recollection of what was talked about at the 17 Hilton? 18 A Just the same topics and -- and trying to -- to 19 elicit additional information and facts about those -- about 20 those three areas. 21 Q Okay. And the span of time -- 22 A I can elaborate on one point -- 23 Q Okay. 24 A -- because -- on the point of the agreement -- 25 first Mr.~Minton told us about the checks.
46 1 And then we said, "Well, anything else you have to 2 tell us?" 3 Then he told us about the meeting which he 4 attended where it was discussed whether or not to add 5 Mr. Miscavige to the complaint. 6 And then we said, "Anything else you want to tell 7 us?" 8 Then he said, "Well, I lied about the secret 9 agreement." 10 We said, "Secret agreement? What secret 11 agreement?" 12 He said, "The secret agreement. The secret 13 agreement. I lied about the secret agreement." 14 We said, "What are you talking about?" 15 He said, "You know, the agreement to have the 16 proceeds from the litigation paid to -- on my behalf to the 17 Lisa McPherson Trust, that, you know, this entire case was 18 litigated for an improper purpose." That is a quote. 19 Q Now, after -- do you have a sense -- I mean, do 20 you recall how long this series of -- I call them series of 21 meetings -- it is one meeting in three segments, it sounds 22 like, it lasted from when to when? When did you start 23 meeting, through the dinner break, and when did you break 24 up? Do you have a sense? 25 A We started very late in the afternoon. I would
47 1 say 4 or 5 o'clock. And we didn't -- the first part of the 2 meeting didn't last very long before we broke for dinner. 3 And I think we probably reconvened maybe about 4 8~o'clock. It was already dark. And that second part of 5 the meeting perhaps was a couple of hours, at the most. 6 But all of the meetings that I had with Mr.~Minton 7 and -- and Ms. Brooks had a lot of breaks. There were four 8 cell phones that were constantly ringing, so somebody was 9 taking a phone call. And I don't know if you smoke, your 10 Honor, but I'm an avid non-smoker. And Mr.~Minton smokes. 11 So out of courtesy to me, whenever he wanted to smoke, he 12 would go outside. And so we would break practically every 13 ten or fifteen minutes for him to take a smoke break, as 14 well. 15 So in terms of the actual time that we sat and 16 met, Mmm, you know, maybe two to three hours total. 17 Q And when did you-all leave the hotel? 18 A It was late. Well, I'm not sure how late it was, 19 but it could have been midnight. 20 Q Now, did you meet again -- when was the next time 21 you met with Mr.~Minton? 22 A On the next day. 23 Q So that was Sunday, April 7? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And where was that meeting?
48 1 A That meeting was at the Belleview Biltmore Hotel 2 in Clearwater. 3 Q Okay. And who was at that meeting? 4 A Mmm, Mr. Rinder, I was at the meeting, Mr.~Minton 5 and Stacy Brooks. 6 Q Okay. And do you recall what was discussed at 7 that meeting? 8 A That was a very -- Mmm, a very -- although we -- 9 the meeting time probably might have gone on for a few 10 hours, we actually had very little time that we were 11 meeting. Mr.~Minton was going to be deposed the next day, 12 and he was on the phone with his lawyer -- both of his 13 lawyers, with Mr. Howie, with Mr. Jonas. Many times we were 14 interrupted during the meeting. And -- and we broke very 15 early before dinner. We didn't start until sometime the 16 middle of the afternoon. 17 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. 18 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 19 THE COURT: All right, you need to be at ease. 20 And we have to stop at 5:30. We have construction 21 going on and we have to have our cars out, and on 22 and on. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 24 THE COURT: So -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: That is actually good.
49 1 THE COURT: We'll stop at 5:30, okay? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay with me. 3 THE COURT: I'm happy to have the excuse, to 4 tell you the truth. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q Let me reorient myself for a second. We were 7 talking about April 7 meeting at the Belleview Biltmore, and 8 you said that four cell phones were going off and Mr.~Minton 9 and Ms. Brooks were talking to their lawyers a lot. Do you 10 remember that? 11 A Correct. Uh-huh. 12 Q And their lawyers were aware that Ms. Minton -- 13 Mr.~Minton and Ms. Brooks were meeting with you and 14 Mr. Rinder, correct? 15 A Certainly Mr. Howie was. I don't -- I don't know 16 specifically about Mr. Jonas at that time. I did speak to 17 Mr. Jonas subsequently, but not at the time of the 6th and 18 7th. 19 Q Okay. Now, what was discussed when you were 20 meeting with them on the 7th? 21 A We continued to ask questions about the three 22 areas that he talked about, particularly about the checks, 23 and whether or not we would get copies of the checks. And 24 the circumstances under which Mr.~Minton had provided those 25 checks to Mr. Dandar.
50 1 And Mr.~Minton answered our questions. I mean, we 2 specifically asked him when he gave him the $500,000 check. 3 And he told us that he met Mr. Dandar at the 4 Bombay Bicycle Club, I believe in Clearwater on Gulf-to-Bay 5 or something like that. 6 And we asked him why he had -- since he had 7 written personal checks out of his account in the past, why 8 he had provided the check in this manner. 9 And he told us that because Mr. Dandar had told 10 him that he had a way to hide the funds, that he could put 11 them in an account that the Church of Scientology couldn't 12 find, and -- and that he should give him the funds this way 13 so that they wouldn't be traceable. 14 And -- and Mr.~Minton said he did that because he 15 believed that it was for the good of the case because there 16 was so much concern that the Church of Scientology's 17 discovery into Mr.~Minton's financial affairs was causing a 18 distraction to the real issues in the wrongful death case. 19 And so that if nobody knew about this money, then there 20 would be less of that distraction and -- and things would go 21 on. 22 With respect to the $250,000 check, he said that 23 he had provided that by mail and -- and he had sent it to 24 Mr. Dandar's office. 25 He also told us about the circumstances of the New
51 1 Hampshire meeting, although I'm not -- some of these 2 meetings are going to blend together so I can't exactly 3 pinpoint which dates we got all of the details. 4 At that meeting on the -- on the 7th there was 5 another topic that was also discussed, which was the 6 Lawrence Wollersheim matter. 7 Q What was discussed about that? 8 A Mmm, the Church -- the Church had been trying to 9 settle the Wollersheim matter for a long time, a number of 10 years. I personally had been involved in trying to settle 11 that matter. And Mr.~Minton was aware of that because 12 when -- when Mr.~Minton was at FACTNet, he was party to some 13 of the settlement discussions that had gone on with 14 Mr. Wollersheim. So he knew that -- that the Church was 15 interested in settling it. 16 And there were ongoing proceedings in the 17 Wollersheim case. There was hearings that were about to 18 come up and so on. So there were discussions about the 19 settlement -- incidentally, in New York when the Wollersheim 20 case came up as part of Mr. Rosen's list, there was also 21 discussion about the fact that the Church had tried to 22 settle it and whether or not Mr. -- Mr. Minton could be -- 23 could be helpful in making that case go away. And so 24 those -- those discussions continued on -- on the 7th. 25 Then we also specifically talked about the fact
52 1 that Ms. Brooks had affidavits that had been filed in the -- 2 in the Wollersheim case. And these were affidavits that the 3 Church believed were false and -- and suggested that -- that 4 Ms. Brooks should ask to have those affidavits withdrawn. 5 Q And do you remember anything else? 6 A Nothing specific from that meeting. No. 7 Q Okay. 8 THE COURT: When you -- when you mentioned the 9 Wollersheim case, making it go away, as I recall -- 10 and I could be wrong -- but wasn't there a judgment 11 already entered in that case? 12 THE WITNESS: There had been a judgment that 13 was entered, your Honor. But it was against -- 14 because Mr. Wollersheim hadn't -- had made no 15 attempts to collect that judgment over a long period 16 of time, the particular Church corporation that the 17 judgment was against had become insolvent, and -- 18 and so Mr. Wollersheim was trying to collect a 19 judgment from other churches. But there was a 20 judgment only against one Church of Scientology at 21 that particular point in time. 22 THE COURT: When the point was made, "Make it 23 go away," whatever that was about, did that mean 24 make that judgment go away so no church would have 25 to pay it? Or did it mean make it go away, settle
53 1 it? Or -- or some of both? 2 THE WITNESS: I don't think it was ever that 3 specific, your Honor. I mean, I think there were 4 words used like "dismiss, resolve, settle," but I 5 think what the Church's perspective was, that all of 6 this litigation needed to go away and be resolved, 7 otherwise, there couldn't be a complete 8 disengagement between them and Mr.~Minton, because 9 Mr.~Minton was intimately involved in all this 10 litigation through funding, or because he had 11 ultimately become a party in some of the matters and 12 so on. 13 So I -- I don't want to say that, you know, it 14 was never suggested that it should be dismissed or 15 resolved or settled because I think all of those 16 things were discussed or mentioned, both in New York 17 and subsequent meetings. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q At this point on April 7 had he given you the 21 checks yet? 22 A No. 23 Q And that meeting ended -- I mean, obviously it 24 ended. That is a stupid question. 25 Where did you-all leave it when the meeting ended?
54 1 A Well, Mr.~Minton was going to be deposed the next 2 day. And there was a contempt hearing that was scheduled in 3 front of Judge Baird on Tuesday, the 9th of April. And 4 Mr.~Minton was going off to prepare with his lawyers for 5 those proceedings. 6 Q When was the next time you met with Mr.~Minton? 7 A The next time I met with Mr.~Minton was on 8 Wednesday, the 10th of April. 9 Q Okay. So that is the day after the contempt -- 10 the first day of the contempt hearing in front of Judge 11 Baird, right? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q And where was that meeting? 14 A That meeting also was in Wally Pope's office. 15 Q And who was present -- 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you said that was the 17 first day of the contempt hearing? 18 MR. WEINBERG: The first day -- the -- the -- 19 it was the day after the -- 20 THE COURT: The day after? 21 MR. WEINBERG: -- of the contempt hearing. 22 THE COURT: The contempt hearing, as I recall, 23 was on the 9th. 24 MR. WEINBERG: April 9, right. 25 THE COURT: There was something that happened
55 1 later, I guess it might have been something similar 2 to what we're doing, or the beginning -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, the first day was April 9 4 and the second day was April 17 or something. 5 THE COURT: 19th. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Or 19th. 7 THE COURT: Was that -- see, I kind of thought 8 that Judge Baird's hearing was done on the 9th or 9 whatever it was going to be -- 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: No. 11 THE COURT: Yes, because that is why Mr. Dandar 12 was not given the opportunity to cross-examine, 13 because he had no standing. That was the contempt 14 hearing. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he should speak to that, 16 because I wasn't -- 17 THE COURT: But then on the 19th something else 18 was started. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: If my memory is right, your 20 Honor -- I don't swear this is true because I'm not 21 involved in that case -- I believe on the 19th there 22 was the beginning of a motion to disqualify 23 Mr. Dandar. I think that is what happened on the 24 19th. 25 THE COURT: There was, because there is no
56 1 question that was an adversary hearing with both 2 sides' full right of cross-examination. 3 MR. FUGATE: That is exactly what happened. 4 THE COURT: Right. 5 MR. FUGATE: There was -- Mr. Lirot said they 6 needed a more complete motion, everybody agreed with 7 that, there was, I think, a ruling there was no 8 standing -- 9 THE COURT: Do you know what, Mr. Fugate? I 10 think that I just realized I was right and I 11 probably don't need to hear more. 12 MR. WEINBERG: You were right because I was 13 thinking contempt and disqualify were the same 14 thing. You are right. 15 THE COURT: Judge Baird took it under 16 advisement. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 18 THE COURT: He said, you know, "I'll decide on 19 that later," and then everybody went off. And on 20 the 19th -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: The 9th was supposed to be 22 sentencing on the contempt. And you are right, I 23 don't know what I was thinking. 24 THE COURT: So 4/10. 25
57 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q We are on April 10, at Mr. Pope's office. Who is 3 there? 4 A Mr.~Minton, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Rinder and I was 5 there. 6 Q Okay. And can you recall what was discussed on 7 April 10? 8 A Mmm, the meeting was very short on April 10. 9 Mr.~Minton's favorite aunt had died, his mother's sister, I 10 believe. And he was going to take a plane to Nashville for 11 the funeral. 12 And so we met very briefly in Mr. Pope's office. 13 And we -- we talked about the same topics, and specifically 14 the testimony from the hearing the day before, just asking 15 questions, whether or not he had the checks, and I don't 16 know anything beyond that. 17 Q And the answer was he didn't have them yet? 18 A He did not have the checks at that point, no. 19 THE COURT: Is this a good time to stop? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Probably. I'm actually getting 21 kind of tired. 22 THE COURT: Let's call it a day. Everybody can 23 be at ease. We're done. And I should tell you, you 24 are on the stand, and because you are on the stand, 25 you really can't talk to anybody about this case,
58 1 including these lawyers. 2 THE WITNESS: Can I talk to Mr. Weinberg about 3 my testimony? 4 THE COURT: It's kind of odd. The answer is 5 no. 6 THE WITNESS: No? Okay. 7 THE COURT: If it were going to be a long-term 8 or if you were going -- I mean, I have allowed some 9 of the people to talk with their lawyers, but those 10 are people like Mr.~Minton and Ms. Brooks, 11 overnight, who may have been in a situation where 12 they needed legal advice. 13 I don't put you in that category. So, 14 truthfully, a witness on the stand is not supposed 15 to even talk to the lawyers. 16 THE WITNESS: About the case? 17 THE COURT: About the case. 18 MR. WEINBERG: There is one thing I need to 19 talk to her about. 20 THE COURT: Tell me what it is and I'll see if 21 we can get a waiver. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Because I didn't get to talk to 23 her last night because I -- I just didn't. 24 Mr. Dandar filed a request to produce that -- 25 for Ms. Yingling to produce various things that may
59 1 or may not be work product. 2 THE COURT: I'll give you permission to speak 3 with her about that. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 5 THE COURT: I'll give you -- in other words, it 6 is just -- just one of those deals, when somebody is 7 on the stand, they are not to even speak with their 8 lawyers. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, it just came in last 10 night. 11 THE COURT: That we'll let you talk about what 12 just came in. If there is anything new that hasn't 13 been discussed that came up today, that you need to 14 discuss. But you can't really go back and go over 15 the testimony and tell her she is doing good or her 16 testimony is good. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I won't do that. 18 THE COURT: Really, we're just getting 19 information at this point. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Right. What time? 21 THE COURT: Start at 9~o'clock? 22 MR. WEINBERG: That is fine. 23 THE COURT: Do you think, because she has this 24 plane to catch, we ought to start at 8:30 tomorrow? 25 MR. WEINBERG: That is fine.
60 1 THE COURT: I am concerned because I don't know 2 how long you are going to be. Mr. Dandar may take a 3 long time. And this, as you know -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Let's start at 8:30. 5 THE COURT: I pay certain deference to lawyers, 6 I try to accommodate them whenever I can. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Let's start at 8:30. 8 THE COURT: Fine. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Can I make a request on the 10 record? 11 THE COURT: You can make this. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Once we're done with 13 Ms. Yingling, unless people correct me, that is our 14 last witness. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Then we'll rest. And assuming 17 that is tomorrow sometime, could I -- could 18 Mr. Dandar tell us who his next witness is, please? 19 MR. DANDAR: Bill Franks is our next witness. 20 I do need to advise the Court that he also has 21 been contacted again by Mr. Drescher representing 22 the Church of Scientology International, and he was 23 requested to call Mr. Fugate by Mr. Drescher. But 24 he'll be here tomorrow whenever -- 25 THE COURT: Nothing surprises me in this case.
61 1 We'll just have to let it play out, see what 2 happens. 3 MR. DANDAR: I understand. 4 THE COURT: You know, I think -- things amaze 5 me that happen in this case. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. 7 THE COURT: You may step down. 8 MR. WEINBERG: We'll see you at 8:30. 9 THE COURT: 8:30 tomorrow. 10 (WHEREUPON, Court stands adjourned at 5:30 11 p.m.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
62 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 11th day of June, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25