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            3                      CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11

                DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
            5   Representative of the ESTATE OF
                LISA McPHERSON,

            7             Plaintiff,

            8   vs.                                     VOLUME 4

                and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,

           14   PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Ominbus Motion for
                                    Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
                DATE:               June 5, 2002, morning session.
                PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
           17                       St. Petersburg, Florida.

           18   BEFORE:             Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer,
                                    Circuit Judge.
                REPORTED BY:        Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR,
           20                       Notary Public,
                                    State of Florida at large.





353 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MR. LEE FUGATE and 12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 15 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 17 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
354 1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 Recess 437 25 Recess 508 18 4 Reporter's Certificate 509 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
355 1 THE COURT: Good morning. 2 We've got a couple legal matters. We want to 3 take those up first? 4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff -- 7 THE COURT: Where is -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: He's sick. 9 THE COURT: What -- why can't I think of his 10 name? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Lieberman. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman. 13 MR. WEINBERG: He actually was sick 14 yesterday -- 15 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: -- and he's sick today. 17 THE COURT: All right. Well, tell him I hope 18 he feels better. 19 I have three motions by the plaintiff, request 20 to produce -- two requests to produce. 21 I guess I should ask the defense if there's any 22 objection. 23 MR. FUGATE: Which -- 24 THE COURT: We'll take the first one up, is -- 25 it looks like they're requesting that these be
356 1 produced at this hearing, which is why I'm taking 2 them up. We'll take up the one -- the first one is 3 one that requests the videos, including any 4 videos -- 5 I can't really quite figure out the relevance 6 of this to this hearing, but -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Well, they mixed summary judgment 8 motions with this hearing. And they've produced 9 videos of the Lisa McPherson Trust under 10 surveillance. And they had video cameras on the 11 back sidewalk of the hotel where Lisa McPherson, 12 they say, was kept. And this court -- 13 And I think we're entitled to see the security 14 videos -- 15 THE COURT: I'm not saying that you're not. I 16 just am not certain that they're relevant to this 17 hearing. But rather than debate that let's see if 18 there's an objection. 19 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, there aren't any. 20 THE COURT: Pardon me? 21 MR. MOXON: The system that recorded the 22 security videos didn't go in until, I'm informed, 23 about 1998 or thereabouts. So the only video that 24 had a recording on it in the church at that time was 25 at the front door, and there's obviously nothing
357 1 there. So -- 2 THE COURT: So there is none. So I guess 3 that's the answer -- 4 MR. DANDAR: All right. 5 THE COURT: -- okay? So we kind of dealt with 6 that. 7 The next one is -- and as a matter of fact, if 8 you want me to sign an order that they responded 9 there weren't any -- 10 MR. DANDAR: No. The transcript's enough. 11 THE COURT: -- I'll sign an order. 12 Okay. The next request to produce, three 13 things: Committee of evidence reports of certain 14 people, knowledge reports regarding Lisa McPherson 15 and routing slips. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have a written response. 17 It's actually due the 6th, according to the 18 pleading, but I'll file one with the clerk. 19 I went back and checked. I didn't say anything 20 yesterday because, like I said, I'm always going to 21 preface things with "I think," and I thought that we 22 had responded to these early on and in the written 23 response that the -- this was requested sometime 24 ago, it was responded to, and there are none. 25 And the ones that respond to number 3 were
358 1 turned over to Mr. Dandar, I believe -- I don't have 2 my copy now in front of me -- in 1998 or 1999. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. FUGATE: Those are all the ones that were 5 in existence, and they were turned over then. 6 THE COURT: And if they aren't, you've 7 responded before that there aren't, and you're 8 responding again. 9 MR. FUGATE: To 1 and 2, there are no 10 documents. 11 I have also sent the notice to the lawyers or 12 caused to be sent the notice to the lawyers for the 13 other people. 14 But as -- on behalf of the defendant Flag, 15 there are no documents as to 1 and 2. That's been 16 responded to before. 17 As to 3, that was responded to. There were 18 documents, they were produced and -- they were 19 produced. And Mr. Shaw also verified that in a 20 hearing before Judge Moody in 2000. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. DANDAR: And I'd like to be on the record. 23 Brian Anderson -- since this response of 1998 24 for number 1, Brian Anderson's deposition was taken. 25 Brian Anderson said he was subjected to a committee
359 1 of evidence. If they're saying Flag doesn't have 2 the committee of evidence reports and someone else 3 does within the Scientology conglomerate, then I'd 4 like them to tell me that, because I don't want any 5 word games. "Flag no longer has it. Someone else 6 does." 7 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, A, I resent that. B, 8 the depositions of each of these people were taken 9 and the questions were asked. 10 Mr. Anderson, as I recall his deposition -- I 11 went back and looked -- said he had a committee of 12 evidence on a unrelated matter, long before that, 13 that didn't have -- nothing to do with this, which 14 was asked and answered in his deposition. And I 15 believe that Mr. Kartuzinski said he thought he had 16 had a committee of evidence in this particular case 17 but there was no document produced therefrom, and he 18 testified to that. 19 So what he says is accurate; that they have -- 20 that those two people that I know of have said, yes, 21 one has nothing to do with this. Kartuzinski 22 testified about his. And there is no document, 23 there's no report, there's no document that Flag 24 has. 25 So I have answered that. And we did go back
360 1 and check it. 2 THE COURT: I -- I think what he is saying is, 3 is your response that none exist -- 4 MR. FUGATE: None exist. 5 THE COURT: -- regarding if he were to change 6 his wording to say Flag Services Organization or 7 Church of Scientology International and/or -- in 8 other words, no matter who he put in the request as 9 to who might have it, there are none. 10 MR. FUGATE: The answer would be the same. 11 There are none. 12 MR. DANDAR: And never has been. 13 MR. FUGATE: And never has been as far, as I 14 know. That was answered in the deposition. And I 15 have checked, and there are none. 16 THE COURT: I do remember, now that you 17 mentioned it, because I did read Mr. Kartuzinski's 18 deposition -- I didn't know what this was, but now 19 that I think about it, I do remember him talking 20 about it. I don't remember what he said about any 21 writings, but I presume you've looked for them? 22 MR. FUGATE: I have. Actually, as I said, 23 yesterday I would have answered it, but I thought, 24 before I do that, let me go back and check. And I 25 did, and those are the accurate answers.
361 1 THE COURT: So you don't need to reword this. 2 MR. DANDAR: No. 3 THE COURT: I think what you can assume is 4 there aren't any. 5 MR. DANDAR: Right. And I wasn't -- 6 THE COURT: No matter whose name you would put 7 in it, there aren't any. 8 MR. DANDAR: Right. 9 And I didn't ask that question in a derogatory 10 fashion. I just wanted to make sure we covered the 11 oceanfront. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. DANDAR: The other thing I want to bring to 14 the court's attention -- 15 THE COURT: Is this your original or is this my 16 copy? 17 MR. FUGATE: I think I filed the original with 18 the clerk. Did I? That's your copy, Judge. And 19 you can throw that away or keep it. 20 THE COURT: This is a signed copy which is why 21 I worried -- 22 MR. FUGATE: I just signed all of them because 23 I didn't have a stamp. 24 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, this should not be 25 signed as a -- an exhibit in this case. It's just a
362 1 pleading. And both of them are pleadings that need 2 to be filed in the court file as a pleading. 3 And this would be the response, right? 4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 5 THE COURT: So I am going to throw them out 6 because we've dealt with it. 7 MR. FUGATE: Right. 8 THE COURT: Now, the next thing we have is 9 Plaintiff's motion to abate dissemination of any 10 portion of the film The Profit. 11 It seems to me that that is a matter for 12 Ms. Brooks. I see Ms. Brooks is here, but I don't 13 see her lawyer. 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I -- I -- I didn't 15 know what that was until last night, and I read it 16 and I saw -- 17 THE COURT: I didn't either, and I read it. 18 MR. FUGATE: -- and I saw that -- it seemed to 19 me to relate to either Ms. Brooks and/or Mr. Minton. 20 I contacted -- the only person I could get 21 ahold of last night was Mr. McGowan. He had not 22 received a copy of it. I told him that I would have 23 a copy for him today. And he asked that if you 24 would take this up after lunch, I think he can be 25 here.
363 1 And I'll give him a copy. He had not been 2 served as a copy. 3 THE COURT: He's on the certificate of service, 4 but he may not have gotten -- 5 MR. FUGATE: As of last night, he had not seen 6 it. And he, I think, can come over this afternoon. 7 Is that -- 8 THE COURT: Is that okay? 9 MR. LIROT: That's fine, Judge. 10 THE COURT: Okay. We'll put this off until 11 this afternoon and we'll take it up after lunch. 12 And if you would -- Ms. Brooks, if you would ask 13 Mr. McGowan to come over after lunch. 14 MS. BROOKS: I will, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: And I think that's -- 16 MR. DANDAR: I just want to remind counsel that 17 we're still waiting for Mr. Jonas's notes that the 18 court ordered to be produced, as well as Mr. Rosen's 19 notes on the cases that he discussed the case with 20 Mr. Minton on March 28th. 21 THE COURT: That's right. There was -- 22 Mr. Jonas was going to look to see. And Mr. Rosen 23 apparently had had a list of cases. And I believe 24 he was on vacation or he was traveling or something 25 last week.
364 1 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. I was -- 2 I heard Mr. Jonas -- I think -- I don't have 3 any communication with him. I'll call Mr. Howie 4 about that. I believe Mr. Howie said he had placed 5 a call to him. 6 THE COURT: He did. 7 Maybe he was -- somebody was traveling. There 8 were two. 9 MR. FUGATE: Well, no. No. Well, actually 10 both of them were, as I remember. Mr. Howie said 11 Mr. Jonas was out of town, and he left a phone mail 12 message. And Mr. Rosen was out of town -- and I 13 didn't communicate with him. And I don't even 14 remember now who did -- but as I understood it he 15 was traveling. 16 I'll check on that today and report back to 17 your Honor. I just had totally forgotten about it. 18 THE COURT: Tell Mr. Rosen that if he doesn't 19 still have it, surely he can put it together -- 20 MR. FUGATE: All right. 21 THE COURT: -- and reproduce it, and just state 22 that it may not be what he had, but it's a 23 reproduction. 24 MR. DANDAR: It's the cases with the amounts of 25 money that they spent.
365 1 THE COURT: Right. 2 MR. DANDAR: And finally, I'd like to have a 3 little case management on this hearing. Because if 4 I am the last witness, or I'm not, I need to know 5 approximately when they anticipate us -- the 6 plaintiff putting on its -- 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. DANDAR: -- case. 9 THE COURT: That's fair enough. 10 Are you planning on putting on any witnesses 11 after Mr. Dandar? 12 MR. FUGATE: We are -- well, first of all, we 13 don't anticipate finishing with Mr. Dandar today. 14 And I think that's already been communicated with 15 counsel. And we are contemplating putting on at 16 least two witnesses, and we will let Mr. Dandar know 17 about those two witnesses. But I don't 18 anticipate -- 19 THE COURT: Who are they? 20 MR. FUGATE: It would be perhaps Mark Bunker, 21 about the videos and the other discovery, and 22 Ms. Liebreich, unless we determine we can put in her 23 testimony and avoid having to bring her here. 24 THE COURT: Okay. I don't have any problem 25 with Ms. Liebreich's testimony. I do have a problem
366 1 with Ms. Liebreich having been shown depositions of 2 her sister, and those -- those documents being 3 introduced. Those would not be introduced in this 4 hearing. 5 MR. FUGATE: It would not be that, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. FUGATE: It would be for a specific -- 8 THE COURT: As far as her testimony, whatever 9 it was, I have absolutely no problem -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: It would be her testimony. 11 THE COURT: I will tell you this, that there is 12 a benefit needless to say, of seeing and watching 13 and hearing, observing a witness. You know, I see 14 differences, in looking at the bland transcript, 15 and -- and hearing and listening to witnesses. 16 I say that only because I had certain things -- 17 you know, my assumptions about Ms. Liebreich, just 18 kind of assuming that maybe Ms. Liebreich -- well, I 19 really won't go beyond that. I was reading a bland 20 transcript. 21 If either side thinks I would benefit from 22 seeing her, I -- as far as I know, the only time 23 I've ever seen Ms. Liebreich is when this hearing 24 started, and she was sitting at the table. And you 25 know, there was not a thing wrong with her. She
367 1 looked like a nice person. I don't have a clue how 2 she testified. If she was looking at the floor, 3 looking at counsel -- you know, I just don't know. 4 So if there's a benefit to her being presented 5 in person by either side, then that's fine. If 6 there really isn't, it's just the questions and 7 answers, I really have no problem with taking the 8 questions and answers, having them read into the 9 record. 10 MR. WEINBERG: We have video too from those 11 depos. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. FUGATE: Bear in mind, actually, what you 14 just said -- because I remember from the beginning 15 of the hearing what you said, and I thought -- and 16 frankly, I haven't had a chance to go look at the 17 portions that I think would be relevant to what 18 we're doing. And if the video appears to be 19 sufficient from my perspective, then we would do 20 that. If not, because of the observation you just 21 made, we may ask her to come here. 22 But I haven't been able to do that. Been doing 23 other things. So I'll try to get to that tonight. 24 But I know, as a matter of fact, that 25 Mr. Dandar won't be finished today. So that's the
368 1 best I can tell you. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Well, if we're going to have 3 her here, then obviously Mr. Dandar's going to need 4 to know that so he doesn't have to bring her down at 5 whatever the cost is, over, you know, next-day fair, 6 which I suppose is usually more expensive. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I told Mr. Lirot that we'd try 8 to decide something at the end of the day. I didn't 9 know Mr. Dandar was going to bring it up now. I 10 talked to Mr. Lirot before. 11 THE COURT: Would she be fairly brief? Her 12 testimony was fairly brief. I'm not sure why this 13 testimony here is so much longer than before Judge 14 Baird. Frankly, the information that was Judge 15 Baird's hearing is what's fairly relevant here. 16 This seems to be much more lengthy -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: The part that we want to present 18 to you -- 19 THE COURT: -- and -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: -- I think is fairly brief. 21 That's why I was hoping. I had contemplated we were 22 doing it maybe from depositions. I realize there is 23 no video from Judge Baird's hearing. We have 24 transcript from that. 25 But I need to talk to these folks. And we'll
369 1 try to have a decision at the end of the day. 2 THE COURT: I'm very leery about putting in 3 piecemeal testimony. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 5 THE COURT: Quite frankly, I find that is not 6 satisfactory to me. When I look at the rest of the 7 depositions I sometimes find changes later. So if 8 you want to put it all in, put it all in. If you're 9 going to do it piecemeal, don't do that. So either 10 put it all in or call -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: I think we would put it all in 12 but highlight for you -- 13 THE COURT: You can highlight in your argument. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 15 THE COURT: You see what I'm saying? Put it 16 in, refer to whatever want to refer to. I assure 17 you if you put it all in, I will read it all and I 18 will know what she said. 19 MR. WEINBERG: We'll try to talk -- 20 THE COURT: And I don't object if you want to 21 highlight the things you think are particularly 22 important, as to what you want to talk about. But 23 as I said, I don't like piece meal testimony. 24 MR. WEINBERG: It may make more sense to bring 25 her here and just focus on those particular specific
370 1 areas that we wanted to focus on in the testimony in 2 front of you. That may be the best way of doing it. 3 But let me talk amongst ourselves this 4 afternoon and try to -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. My preference obviously is 6 unless it's real important that I see her, that she 7 not need to make the trip. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 9 THE COURT: I just don't think anybody ought 10 have to fly from Texas to here. It's an ugly trip. 11 By that I mean, it's long, and it's not a very 12 pleasant -- it's a fairly long plane ride. 13 MR. WEINBERG: It is. 14 THE COURT: So if you can do it with her prior 15 testimony, that would be better. 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, the other thing is I have a 18 witness scheduling problem. Peter Alexander is not 19 going to be here next week. He is in town now. He 20 lives in Tampa. So hopefully -- I mean, if we can 21 put him on Friday, that'll be great, whenever the 22 defense -- or the plaintiff gets to start. 23 The other thing is we do want Mr. Rinder, 24 Mr. Rosen and Ms. Yingling to appear, as we asked 25 before for our presentation.
371 1 THE COURT: Well, have you subpoenaed them? 2 MR. DANDAR: Well, they're outside the 3 jurisdiction of the court. But they're within the 4 control of the defense? 5 THE COURT: What is it that you expect to gain 6 from having them come? 7 MR. DANDAR: I expect Mr. Rosen, as an officer 8 of the court, to tell the truth as to the 9 conversation he had with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks 10 on March the 28th and the 29th. And I expect 11 Mr. Rinder to answer those questions, and 12 Ms. Yingling. And find out why Ms. Yingling, a tax 13 expert attorney, was present during all these 14 meetings. 15 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, first of all, I think 16 I may file a motion, if that's his position, because 17 I think both Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton have 18 testified that there were allegations that began the 19 hearing, as I recall the allegations, that Mr. Rosen 20 was present at a large number of meetings and had 21 made all sorts of threats. It turns out that he was 22 at one, and he -- you've told him he needs to 23 produce his notes as to what the list was he went 24 through. 25 The rest of everything's been testified to by
372 1 Mr. Minton and by Ms. Brooks. And I think a lot of 2 what was said did not -- or what was alleged did not 3 come out from their testimony. And I'm not sure 4 what the relevance of calling those folks would be. 5 And I'll be glad to put together a motion. 6 THE COURT: I think it's highly relevant, quite 7 frankly. And I think the relevance is, you've put 8 on two people who've admitted they've committed 9 perjury. Quite frankly, their credibility does not 10 start necessarily on an even keel. I think 11 therefore that that's their business if they want to 12 corroborate their testimony. If they don't, that 13 inures to your benefit. Why you would want them, I 14 have no idea. So you think that through. 15 If they don't want to put them on, then I think 16 that that is -- I mean, if it were me and I were 17 presenting their case, I would put them on. I would 18 put them on because I would want to lend some 19 credibility to people -- to two people whose 20 believability is crucial to their case. If they 21 don't, then that's their business. 22 But why in the world you think I should compel 23 them to bring them for you is really quite beyond 24 me. 25 So you think that through. I don't know that I
373 1 have any power to compel them to come. I really 2 don't. But as I said, that's -- that's really up to 3 the two of you all. If you -- 4 I think they should be here and I think they 5 should testify. However, I think that the person 6 that should call them is the defendant. And if they 7 don't, then I think that is something that they'll 8 have to deal with in closing argument. If you want 9 to compel me to bring them and you think it's just 10 crucial to your case and you think there's anything 11 to be gained by it, and they won't produce them 12 voluntarily, then do your motion. But I really kept 13 expecting before this was over that they would 14 produce these people. 15 MR. FUGATE: Well, I certainly will heed what 16 the court has said, Judge. 17 THE COURT: I think you should. I mean, you've 18 got two people that you want me to believe who said, 19 "I've committed perjury. I'm a liar. And I'm a 20 liar under oath." Now, that's something that -- I 21 really don't have to tell you that. 22 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: I mean, I would think you would 24 know that. I haven't researched the law, but I 25 would certainly think that when the court determines
374 1 credibility of one person versus another, one of 2 whom says, "I'm a liar under oath," and one of whom 3 says, "I'm not lying and this didn't happen," well, 4 that certainly weighs on the court's credibility and 5 determination. There's just no doubt about it. Any 6 court in the land would weigh that. 7 So as I said, why you would want me to bring 8 them, I have no idea. I don't understand lawyers 9 and why they want what they want and why they don't 10 do what they don't do. 11 On the other hand, I think they ought to 12 testify. I think that would be beneficial. If -- 13 if you think that it's so important that they're 14 going to come here and somehow or another say that 15 these two people lied, why then, I'll just bring 16 them in for you. 17 But I think you -- I don't know that you're 18 going to -- to gain anything by it. I don't know 19 that you're not going to gain anything by it. I 20 have no idea what these people might say. It would 21 seem that somebody would want to produce -- I'm just 22 amazed that it would have to be you. 23 And whether I have the authority to produce 24 them, I have no idea. 25 MR. DANDAR: All right, Judge. I'll let you
375 1 know. 2 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, just so we -- 3 following up what you said, we never said we 4 wouldn't produce them. And frankly, I had 5 contemplated possibly calling them, but then I saw 6 the hearing going so long, so I was beginning to try 7 to look ways to shorten it. But I hear -- I hear 8 you loud and clear. 9 And we never said we wouldn't produce them. 10 So -- 11 THE COURT: No, I know -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: If -- 13 THE COURT: You didn't. 14 MR. WEINBERG: If -- 15 THE COURT: I -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: If Mr. Dandar insisted and -- 17 that he wanted Mr. Rosen down here, Mr. Rosen will 18 come down here and testify, but -- you know, it may 19 well be we'll just put them on. And that's 20 something else we'll talk about at lunch. 21 THE COURT: As I said, I don't want to pull any 22 punches here. Naturally, this court, as I have said 23 from the very outset, takes this matter very 24 seriously. These are serious allegations, a serious 25 motion. You know, both sides better put on their
376 1 best case. And if it isn't your best case and you 2 lose or you win, so be it. But I don't want to hear 3 any whining afterwards, "Well, if I had known 4 that --" obviously, you're asking me to take the 5 word of two people, both of whom have said, "I lie, 6 and I lie under oath, but believe me now." And of 7 course, you're naturally going to do the best you to 8 corroborate their testimony as best you can. 9 MR. WEINBERG: By -- 10 THE COURT: But the other side is, obviously, 11 saying, "They're lying." 12 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 13 THE COURT: "I have not said I've committed 14 perjury under oath. They are not telling you the 15 truth." 16 Now I have to weigh that, plain and simple. 17 MR. WEINBERG: And I guess, you know, we have a 18 particularly sort of unique position, because 19 it's -- because really, Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks 20 are certainly not our witnesses. I mean, given -- 21 You've seen the whole history of all this. 22 THE COURT: They are your witnesses as far as 23 this hearing. 24 MR. WEINBERG: We put them on, but -- we put 25 them on, but in the traditional sense of our
377 1 witness, you know, it is -- these are people that -- 2 that fought long and hard -- 3 THE COURT: You can save that argument. As far 4 as I'm concerned, you put them on. You're going to 5 ask me to believe them, plain and simple. 6 Mr. Dandar, resume the stand. 7 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I also am listening. And 8 here is another notebook, but this one has all of 9 the iterations of the complaints. I think yesterday 10 you asked I've got Number 5, or the current fifth 11 amended complaint, and you were looking for some 12 others. So what I did is have original, first 13 amended, and then a fifth series. 14 If you need them for reference -- 15 THE COURT: That's good. 16 MR. FUGATE: -- they're there. 17 THE COURT: I'm not sure I don't have those in 18 another book of the complaints filed in this case. 19 Is this it? Did I get this -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 21 THE COURT: -- yesterday? 22 MR. WEINBERG: -- why don't we take that one 23 back? 24 THE COURT: You want this one back? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 'cause is a more
378 1 complete -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. WEINBERG: -- that he just gave you. 4 THE COURT: Yeah. I thought you gave me that 5 yesterday. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I did. 7 MR. FUGATE: I was listening. It was something 8 else, then. 9 THE COURT: Well, it was -- he gave it to me 10 and asked me to refer to one tab, and then we got 11 off into some discussion. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Because I think there's been 13 nine or 10 different versions. And you know, 14 it's -- we've all lost track. 15 THE COURT: Well, I've lost track of how many 16 notebooks I have too -- 17 MR. FUGATE: A bunch. 18 THE COURT: -- I'll tell you that. 19 A bunch. 20 So I may have this two or three other places, 21 for all I know. 22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I do have my graph of the 23 calls between my phones and the LMT phones. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm going to get back to
379 1 that later, if I can. 2 THE COURT: Okay. You might want to use that 3 when it's -- your counsel's time -- 4 MR. DANDAR: All right. 5 THE COURT: -- and you let them use theirs -- 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. 7 THE COURT: -- and you use theirs. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, I'm going to try to go to 9 a few others areas first, which I think will be a 10 faster pace. Because these phone records kind of 11 slow you down. And later on we'll go back to that. 12 MR. DANDAR: What, after 4:00? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe after 4:00. 14 (A discussion was held off the record.) 15 THE COURT: Go ahead. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Mr. Dandar, yesterday you said that -- in response 18 to some questions, that you were unenthusiastic about -- 19 about Bob Minton's idea of establishing the Lisa McPherson 20 Trust? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You were not in favor of it. And in fact you 23 asked him not to do it, correct? 24 A I -- well, there's several things there. 25 I was un- -- not -- I was asking him not to use
380 1 the name of Lisa McPherson in establishing this organization 2 that he wanted to establish. And I wasn't enthusiastic 3 about the picketing. Now, if he wanted to help people who 4 needed help, who wanted to leave Scientology and needed 5 counseling and things like that, that was something that 6 wasn't provided on a routine basis anywhere, so that was all 7 right. But the rest of it, I always expressed to him my -- 8 Q Now -- 9 A -- hesitation. 10 Q Do you recall that on December 4th, 1999, which is 11 right after you had incorporated the Lisa McPherson Trust, 12 that you, Ken Dandar, were the one that made the public 13 announcement of the opening -- of the establishment of the 14 Lisa McPherson Trust? Do you -- 15 A Well, that would have been at the time of the 16 vigil. And that's all -- I don't remember that, no. 17 Q But you remember that -- that on December 4th, you 18 held a press conference where you addressed picketers and 19 members of the media at the Holiday Inn. And that actually 20 was the conference -- was the press conference where we 21 played the clip where you talked about the -- Jesse Prince 22 and the end cycle? Do you remember that? 23 A I participated -- I was asked to be one of the 24 many speakers at this gathering. And I'm not -- and the 25 press was there sporadically, and I did speak. But I didn't
381 1 hold a press conference, as you just suggested. 2 Q And do you remember at that gathering, when you 3 were at the microphone -- and there was a press microphone 4 there as well; there was a big banner with "The Lisa 5 McPherson Trust," and you actually made the announcement 6 that -- that Mr. Minton had established the Lisa McPherson 7 Trust? 8 A Well, looks like you got it on video, so I'm sure 9 you're correct. But it's -- 10 You know, Michael Rinder was there as well. 11 MR. WEINBERG: We have a short video. Can we 12 play it? 13 (The videotape was played as follows:) 14 "Also, I am proud to say that the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust has been formed and is comprised of 16 individuals dedicated to serve the wishes of Lisa's 17 mother, Fannie McPherson. The Lisa McPherson Trust, 18 organized by Robert Minton -- who is not a worldwide 19 conspirator, by the way, but who is an extremely 20 gracious individual -- formed the Lisa McPherson 21 Trust to pursue the wishes of Fannie McPherson, 22 which are very simple: Expose the truth and the 23 abuses of the Church of Scientology. 'Tell the 24 world how my daughter, Lisa, died, and help other 25 victims of abuse from Scientology.' And that's
382 1 their stated goals, in writing, and that's what that 2 trust is all about." 3 (End of videotape.) 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q Now, let me just hand up to you -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: We'll mark as -- 7 A Well, is there a question that -- going with 8 that -- 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Yes, there is a question. 11 A All right. I didn't want to miss it. 12 Q Excuse me? 13 A I didn't want to miss it. I -- 14 Q You -- that does refresh your recollection, that 15 you were the one -- they hadn't even opened their doors yet. 16 You were the one that made the first public announcement of 17 the establishment of the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct? 18 A I can't agree with that. I do not think that's 19 true. I think that was just a press briefing, when I said I 20 was one of the many participants who was asked to stand up 21 and say something. 22 Q And you said that the -- that the purpose of the 23 Lisa McPherson Trust was to expose the truth about 24 Scientology and tell the world how Lisa -- Lisa McPherson, 25 Fannie McPherson's daughter, died. That's what you said,
383 1 right? 2 A That's partly what I said, right. 3 Q That sounds like -- telling the world about how 4 Lisa McPherson died sounds a whole lot like the wrongful 5 death case, doesn't it? That has to do with the wrongful 6 death case, doesn't it? 7 A No, it doesn't. That would be there no matter if 8 there was a case or not a case. 9 Q Well, in fact -- 10 A That wasn't in the case. 11 Q The fact of the matter is that the Lisa McPherson 12 Trust was used, from that point on when it opened up, until 13 it closed, to be very closely associated and affiliated with 14 the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case, wasn't it? 15 A That's false. 16 Q And not only were there all these phone calls but 17 there were a number of people there working at the Lisa 18 McPherson Trust, associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust, 19 that ended up on your witness list. 20 A Two. 21 Q And -- and for a year -- 22 A Two out of 109. 23 Q And for a year, from June of 2000 until the Lisa 24 McPherson Trust closed sometime in the fall of 2001, your 25 expert witness, Jesse Prince, was being paid full-time by
384 1 the Lisa McPherson Trust, wasn't he? 2 A Because he was a full-time employee doing work for 3 the trust unrelated to the case. 4 Q Right. 5 THE COURT: Is the answer yes? 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Yes. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q And from that time until June of 2000 until 9 whenever it is in 2001, you -- Mr. Prince was working among 10 other things on the wrongful death case for you, wasn't he? 11 A When he showed up for depositions, he was, that's 12 correct. 13 Q Well, I mean, we're going to go into it in more 14 detail when you show me your list, but I think I heard you 15 say yesterday that 56 percent of your calls with the Lisa 16 McPherson Trust were to Jesse Prince. 17 A That's right. 18 Q Right. But -- and many of those calls happened 19 from June of 2000 until -- until the last call in 2001. 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Right. 22 And during that period of time, those calls with 23 Jesse Prince, I assume you're going to say, had to do with 24 the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case, right? 25 A That's right.
385 1 Q But during the period when these calls were taking 2 place, you weren't paying him; the Lisa McPherson Trust was 3 paying him. 4 A That's right. 5 Q And yet you say the Lisa McPherson trust doesn't 6 have anything to do -- I think you said -- anything to do 7 with the wrongful death case. 8 A That's correct. 9 Jesse Prince does. There's a big difference 10 there. 11 Q Okay. And how did it come about that you suddenly 12 ceded the responsibility of paying your expert witness, the 13 one on which you base the fifth amended complaint on, the 14 allegations about -- about letting her die and -- and end 15 cycle -- how is it that it came to be that you ceded the 16 responsibility of paying this expert witness to the Lisa 17 McPherson Trust in June of 2000? 18 A Well, I never ceded the responsibility of paying 19 for my expert witness to anyone, including the Lisa 20 McPherson Trust. So that's not correct. And number two, I 21 no longer needed Jesse Prince to work with me day in and day 22 out on the case, as he had been doing for a year. 23 Q So was it gratis, now, as far as the wrongful 24 death case was concerned? Ken Dandar didn't have to pay any 25 more for his -- his main witness for the fifth amended
386 1 complaint? You don't have to pay anymore as of June of 2 2000? 3 A He wasn't working for me full-time so I didn't 4 have to pay him for not working. That's right. I don't pay 5 people for not working. 6 Q Well, but you do pay people for working. And he 7 was working on the case. So why didn't you pay him for the 8 time that he was working on the case? 9 A I said that I was not charged for phone calls to 10 Jesse Prince. I was not charged if he showed up at a 11 deposition. I was not charged for that, if he wanted to 12 assist me. And I believe -- I would have to look at the 13 deposition list to see how many took place from June of 2000 14 to December of 2001, involved staff members of the Church of 15 Scientology. 16 Q Well, you're not saying -- 17 THE COURT: Wait a second. I'm sorry. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 19 THE COURT: I know you're on -- you're wanting 20 to continue. 21 Are you saying that your expert didn't charge 22 you for either his own -- 23 I don't know when -- 24 When was his deposition taken? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Jesse Prince's?
387 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. WEINBERG: The first time it was -- it was 3 taken was in November of '99. 4 THE COURT: Okay. So that was before LMT. 5 If his deposition was taken anytime after LMT 6 was formed, I presume he charged you an expert 7 witness fee for his deposition. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't -- they took his 9 deposition. They refused to pay his expert witness 10 fee, which is probably a subject of a motion -- 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: -- before the court. 13 THE COURT: So -- I'm sorry. So they took his 14 deposition. Therefore they would have been 15 responsible -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 THE COURT: -- for paying his expert witness 18 fee. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: When he sat with you -- I gather at 21 some of the depositions he sat in to assist you, if 22 it was staff people from the church, is that 23 correct? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: And are you saying that if those
388 1 depositions were after this June of 2000 date, he 2 did it free, but if it was before June of 2000, he 3 was on your payroll, so in effect he was being paid? 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q And -- 7 THE COURT: Go ahead. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q And -- and is it -- you had an arrangement, didn't 10 you, with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, that -- that as of June 11 of 2000, they were going to take care of paying Jesse Prince 12 for the work that he did in the wrongful death case. 13 A That is false. 14 Q All right. So who did you have the arrangement 15 with? How was it that -- that you -- it came to be that -- 16 that suddenly, in June of 2000, right at the time when the 17 first trial was supposed to begin, that he went off your 18 payroll and went onto the LMT for work that had to do for 19 the case? 20 A Because the trial of June, 2000 was continued by 21 the court, and I didn't need him to be there full-time, so I 22 said, "Jesse, you know, I don't need you here full-time." 23 And then he went and made arrangements with Bob Minton or 24 Stacy Brooks -- I mean, I don't know which one -- to work 25 full-time at the Lisa McPherson Trust.
389 1 Q Well, did he talk to you about that; that he was 2 going to relieve you of the responsibility of paying him? 3 A I had no responsibility to pay him unless I asked 4 him to help me. 5 Q Well, did he ask you to get paid for the work that 6 he did on the case once he went on the payroll of the LMT? 7 A No. Not that I remember anyway. 8 Q So it was just an understanding that you had with 9 Mr. Prince that you didn't have to pay him anymore, even 10 though he was working on the case? 11 A No. If he would have sent me a bill, I would have 12 paid it, but he didn't say I needed to pay him, that I 13 recall, as I sit here, nor did I pay him for phone calls or 14 showing up to assist me with questions of staff. 15 Q Well, you knew, at the time of his November, 1999 16 deposition, that the deal that Jesse Prince had was that he 17 was getting paid $5,000 a month, starting at FACTNet. Then 18 we showed you the checks from Bob Minton. And then you gave 19 him $5,000 a month, from Mr. Minton's money, for between 20 June of '99 and May of 2000. And then after that, he was 21 getting $5,000 a month again from LMT, as long as it was in 22 existence. And then you heard in this hearing he got $5,000 23 a month, up until almost the start of this proceeding, from 24 Ms. Brooks. 25 You knew that was the deal; that he was getting
390 1 5,000 bucks a month in his deal with Mr. Minton, right? 2 A No. 3 Q Well, why were you paying him 5,000 a month? 4 Didn't Mr. Minton tell you that that's what the deal was? 5 A No. That's the -- that's the arrangement -- 6 that's what I agreed to pay Mr. Prince when I asked him to 7 come work on this case and educate me full-time, from June 8 of '99 to the end of May, 2000. 9 Q All right. And he told you that prior to that 10 time, that he was getting $5,000 a month from Mr. Minton -- 11 A I don't think -- 12 Q -- right? 13 A -- that -- 14 No. I don't think that's true. 15 Q Well, he told you he was getting $5,000 a month 16 from somebody. 17 A I don't think that's true. I don't think he -- 18 I -- I don't -- as I sit here -- I'm trying to remember as 19 best I can, but I don't remember him ever telling me, "This 20 is what I've been paid in the past." 21 Q Okay. 22 THE COURT: Did -- did -- this, I know; that if 23 I had reviewed the transcripts I would know. 24 Did Ms. Brooks say that she had paid Mr. Prince 25 after LMT closed?
391 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Or did Mr. Minton pay him? 3 MR. WEINBERG: She said that she cut the 4 checks. It was Mr. Minton's money, but that she had 5 actually written the last check to Mr. Prince -- 6 again, this is my recollection -- I think she said 7 on April 4th or thereabouts of 2002. 8 THE COURT: Obviously, not out of LMT's 9 account, but out of her personal check? 10 MR. WEINBERG: I think it's out of her personal 11 account. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: But it was Mr. Minton's money? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 MR. WEINBERG: It was Mr. Minton's money. 16 What I can't recall is -- I don't know whether 17 the check's in evidence or not. I don't remember. 18 THE WITNESS: Check is not in evidence, but 19 that's what her testimony was. 20 THE COURT: Okay. I just couldn't remember 21 whether it was Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q All right. Now, Mr. Prince -- just so it's clear, 24 Mr. Prince didn't just go to depositions; he went to 25 hearings too. There were a number of hearings in front of
392 1 Judge Moody that Mr. Prince went to, right? 2 A Before he went to work at the LMT? That's 3 correct. 4 Q There were hearings that he went to after he went 5 to work with the LMT. 6 A Well, Judge Moody wasn't the judge much longer 7 after June of 2000, so I'm not sure. 8 I mean, the records will speak for themself when 9 he was present. 10 Q Okay. 11 THE COURT: Was there some understanding 12 between you and Mr. Minton and/or Ms. Brooks that 13 when Jesse was working -- Mr. Prince was working for 14 you, you'd pay him 5,000 a month, and when he was 15 working for them they'd pay him 5,000 a month, and 16 it just depended on who he was doing the bulk of his 17 work for, or was there no understanding among you? 18 THE WITNESS: No. There was no understanding. 19 There was no discussion about it. I had him for a 20 certain period of time, and then I told him I didn't 21 need him to be there all the time, and that's when 22 he went to work for the LMT. But there was no 23 arrangement from me to have him go work at the LMT. 24 I just said, you know, "You don't need to be here 25 full-time anymore."
393 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q All right. Well, let me show you -- I'll hand up 3 a document. And we're going to try to refresh your 4 recollection as to how this -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think there's a need to 6 mark this unless -- it just refreshes Mr. Dandar's 7 recollection. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q Now, Mr. Prince started at the LMT in June of 10 2000. And the first hearing that I was able to locate was a 11 June 7th hearing in front of Judge Moody that Mr. Prince and 12 Dr. Garko, Ben Shaw, even Mike Rinder -- all kinds of people 13 were there, including yourself, correct? 14 A No. I -- I just had my five-way, bypass, 15 Mr. Weinberg, and the record shows my brother was there. 16 Q Okay. And your brother was there. I'm sorry. 17 A And I'd like to know -- you know, I don't even 18 know what this is about. So anyway -- 19 Q Well, we'll get the full transcript. 20 A But anyway, the record says he was at June 7th, 21 2000. So -- so -- so what? 22 Q Okay. I'm just saying -- 23 A That's fine. 24 Q -- LMT -- 25 A All right.
394 1 Q I mean do you remember that Teresa Summers' depo 2 was taken? 3 A No. I took Teresa Summers' depo, so it was before 4 this. 5 Q Do you remember that -- I guess your bypass is 6 going on -- that your brother appeared at Teresa Summers' 7 first depo? 8 A Is that right? 9 Q I'm going to show you. 10 A All right. I thought I took it. Boy, I'm really 11 not doing too well if I don't remember that. 12 Well, that's what it says. I wasn't there. 13 Q Teresa Summers is a -- she's on your witness list. 14 She was an employee of the LMT. 15 Mr. Prince made an appearance at her deposition on 16 June 13th, 2000, I guess, again, done by your brother, 17 right? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Right. But this time Mr. Prince was on the LMT 20 payroll. 21 A That's right. 22 Q But you all aren't being billed for his work, 23 right? 24 A He didn't send me a bill, that's right. 25 Q Okay. Now, let me show you --
395 1 MR. WEINBERG: If I can, your Honor -- 2 THE COURT: I suppose it might be a good idea 3 to have these marked. I don't know what -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 5 THE COURT: I don't know how else -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: I will. 7 THE COURT: -- we're going to -- 8 Well, do them all and then we'll make them -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: We'll do them all at the end. 10 A This shows her first depo was June 13th, 2000. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Right. 13 A But -- 14 Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. There's 15 something wrong. 16 What's wrong is this shows Sclafani Court 17 Reporters being the court reporters. 18 Q Right. 19 A And unless we had two court reporters there, I 20 don't use Sclafani. 21 Q I think it's a depo -- 22 A I -- 23 Q -- we were taking. 24 A Pardon me? 25 Q I think it's a depo we were taking.
396 1 A Well then -- 2 Okay. 3 Q But we'll get the full transcript. 4 A I thought I took the first depo. 5 THE COURT: Well, maybe you took the -- the 6 first depo and this is their depo. 7 THE WITNESS: That's possible. I can't -- 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q And I'm handing you up another depo transcript, 10 this is one of the church people, Brian Anderson. His name 11 came up today. You were asking for his -- what do you call 12 it -- 13 THE COURT: Confidence report. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q The -- 16 A Committee -- 17 Q Goodness gracious -- 18 A -- of evidence. 19 Q -- what do we call it? 20 The committee of evidence. 21 A Right. 22 Q You asked about that today. 23 And his depo was taken on December 6th, 2000, well 24 into Mr. Prince's work at the LMT. And Mr. Prince showed up 25 as your expert at that deposition. And you were there,
397 1 right? 2 A Oh, yes. Well, this says what I just told you at 3 the beginning of this questioning. 4 Q And did he bill you for this? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. 7 A Did he stay for the whole deposition? I don't 8 know. I kind of remember him not staying for the whole 9 deposition. 10 Q Well, you invited him there, right? 11 A Yes. 12 Q He was there for a purpose, right? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Mr. Minton had told you that you needed to 15 increase the -- the participation of Mr. Prince in the 16 Scientology aspects of the case, and this is what you -- 17 this is how you were doing it, right? 18 A Wrong. 19 Q All right. Let me show you the next one. 20 A Mr. Minton had nothing to do with Mr. Prince being 21 there. That was my idea, all by myself. 22 Q Now, you remember Annie Mora's deposition? 23 A Yes. 24 Q You were at that one, weren't you? 25 A January 17th, 2001.
398 1 Q All right. 2 A That's correct. 3 Q That's well into Mr. Prince's work at the LMT, 4 right? 5 A That's right. 6 Q And you remember that deposition. There was a -- 7 there was a dispute, I think, if I remember correctly, that 8 took place at that deposition, right, about the 6-foot rule 9 or whatever it was? 10 A Yeah. I remember you and Mr. Shaw behaving so 11 unprofessionally, yelling and screaming -- 12 THE COURT: That's not necessary. Honestly. 13 For heaven's sake -- 14 THE WITNESS: Well, that resulted in the order 15 of Judge Quesada to have Judge Beach show up at all 16 the depositions. 17 THE COURT: So whatever it was, that's the one 18 that caused Judge Beach to have to sit in on the 19 rest of the depositions. 20 THE WITNESS: That's right. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Well, Mr. Prince was there, wasn't he? 23 A He was sitting behind me. Yes, he was there. 24 Q All right. And he didn't bill you for that 25 deposition, right?
399 1 A No. 2 Let me make it easy. He hasn't billed me for any 3 deposition. 4 Q No, but I want to show you this. I mean, it's -- 5 A Okay. 6 Q It's a simple question. 7 A All right. 8 Q The answer is, I'm right, correct? 9 A You're correct. 10 Q All right. And by the way, Annie Mora is one of 11 the staff members in the Office of Special Affairs, working, 12 which Mr. Shaw was part of, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q So she's a Scientologist. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Was the idea, by the way, to bring Jesse Prince to 17 the Scientologists' depositions so that it would -- it would 18 cause some harassment? Was that the idea? 19 A No. I already answered your question. He has the 20 expertise on Scientology matters, that even after all this 21 time, I still don't have as much as he has. 22 Q Okay. You remember Judy Fontana? 23 THE COURT: If you've got just jillions of 24 these -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: No. This is the last one.
400 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 A Yes, I do. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q And she's another member -- 5 A OSA. 6 Q Part of Mr. Saw's office? Or was at one point? 7 A That's correct. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. My last one, Judge. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Her deposition was taken on January 30th, 2001. 12 And I believe you'll see that Mr. Prince appeared -- well, 13 you do remember that he showed up at that depo, right? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Your Honor, I'm going to 16 mark these as composite exhibit. And I'll tick them 17 off for the record: The June 7th, 2000 18 proceeding -- 19 THE COURT: It's all in the record. Just put 20 them in the record. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, I just want to make 22 sure that I've got them all here. I've got four. 23 How many do you have? 24 THE COURT: I have one, two, three, four -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe it's five.
401 1 THE COURT: -- five. And actually, I've got 2 mine in order datewise, and I suggest you do the 3 same. 4 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I'm doing. 5 THE COURT: And I suggest the clerk staple them 6 together and mark them as a composite exhibit next 7 in line. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I see what I did wrong. 9 THE COURT: What is it, Madam Clerk? 10 THE CLERK: Number 155. 11 THE COURT: LMT, I've forgotten, closed down in 12 December of 2001? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think effectively is -- 15 what Ms. Brooks says is after Mr. Minton cut off 16 funding in August -- 17 THE COURT: I just want a date. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think I have a date. I 19 don't -- 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 THE WITNESS: I think there's been testimony 22 December, 2001. 23 THE COURT: That's what my recollection was. 24 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 25 THE COURT: Sometime toward the end of 2001.
402 1 THE WITNESS: Most definitely. 2 MR. WEINBERG: It's definitely in the fall of 3 2001. 4 THE COURT: Right. 5 MR. WEINBERG: And this is marked as -- 6 THE CLERK: 155. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Defense 155. 8 THE CLERK: A, B, C and D, E. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Just get this off my desk here. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Now, you also had, while we're on this subject 12 matter, Ms. Brooks, while she was working at the LMT, coming 13 to hearings and to depositions on occasion, correct? 14 A Well, I can't answer that yes or no without 15 looking at the -- I hate to say that, but without looking at 16 the court reporter's transcript like you showed me for these 17 depositions. 18 Q Okay. Well, let me -- before we get there, let me 19 establish something. 20 Ms. Brooks was never paid by Dandar and Dandar 21 in -- once she -- once she became involved in the lawsuit, 22 is that right? 23 A Well, I don't know what you mean by became 24 involved in the lawsuit. 25 Q All right.
403 1 THE COURT: The question was -- it was just 2 real simple. You've told us she was your consultant 3 at some point in time. He wants to know if you ever 4 paid her. 5 THE WITNESS: I never paid her -- I found one 6 check that was written to her and her husband, 7 Vaughn, and after that it was all written to Vaughn. 8 So the first check was written to her and her 9 husband, and -- and then I never paid her a check 10 jointly or individually. 11 So the answer is, correct, I never paid her. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q Okay. And those -- and just so it's clear -- 14 THE COURT: Were they married during -- I -- 15 just so I can establish this, were they married when 16 she was working for you as her consultant at first? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Was there a time when she 19 and he were both working for you, and you just wrote 20 a check to him as opposed to the two of them -- 21 THE WITNESS: Uh -- 22 THE COURT: -- or was his money for him and the 23 one check you gave her was work for her, or do 24 you -- 25 THE WITNESS: I put her on the check by
404 1 mistake. All the checks were to Vaughn Young. 2 Because actually, it was Vaughn Young -- he was 3 doing all the work for me, not Stacy, in 1997, when 4 they were still married. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q Okay. But in 19 -- starting -- starting sometime 8 in 1999, Ms. Brooks became your consultant in the wrongful 9 death case, correct? 10 A Well, it could have been '98, but definitely '99 11 she was a consultant, yes. 12 Q Right. 13 A Unpaid. 14 Q Right. She was again working gratis for you. 15 A Yes, she was. But she wasn't working that much. 16 I mean, most of her work was reviewing the PC folders with 17 Jesse Prince. And then after that it was just whenever she 18 would show up. 19 THE COURT: The PC folders of Jesse Prince? 20 THE WITNESS: With Jesse Prince. 21 THE COURT: Oh, with. 22 A Of Lisa McPherson. That was December, I think, we 23 established. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q Of '98.
405 1 A '98. 2 After that, it was just whenever she would just 3 show up, whenever I would just go to the LMT after 4 something, in Clearwater, and just -- or talk to her on the 5 phone for something. 6 Q But you never got a bill from her. 7 A No. 8 Q And you had an arrangement, did you not, with 9 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Minton would take care 10 of the responsibility of paying Ms. Brooks for her work as a 11 consultant on the wrongful death case. 12 A False. 13 Q Now -- 14 A That is not true at all. 15 Q -- did you have some understanding with someone 16 that you didn't have to pay her when she showed up at 17 hearings and at depositions? 18 A No. No understanding with anyone. 19 Q Were you just waiting for a bill, but you just 20 didn't get it? 21 A I wasn't waiting for a bill. I just -- if she 22 sent me a bill, I would have paid it. 23 Q Now, once the LMT opened up at the beginning of -- 24 the end of '99 -- 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I just have to --
406 1 'cause I'll never, ever remember to ask this. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 3 THE COURT: Did, on the PC folders of Lisa 4 McPherson, both Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks assist you 5 in looking at those and giving you information -- 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 THE COURT: -- their thoughts on what they 8 meant? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Okay. And was she -- 11 Mr. Prince was paid for that. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 THE COURT: He was not paid for that. 14 THE WITNESS: No. He was not. Not -- I'm 15 talking about December, '98 when they spent a few 16 days looking at the original PC folders, and then 17 Mr. Prince told me which ones I should get copied, 18 which were 1995, at that time. And then after that, 19 Mr. Prince spent a considerable amount of time -- 20 THE COURT: It was after that he -- he became a 21 permanent fixture on your payroll for a while? 22 THE WITNESS: Six months later. 23 THE COURT: And she never did. 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 THE COURT: But neither of them billed you for
407 1 their work on the PC folders. 2 THE WITNESS: Not that December, '98, that's 3 correct. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: That was, I think, two -- two 6 days -- 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: -- of review. 9 THE COURT: I just wanted to establish that in 10 my own mind. Thank you. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I was going to actually ask the 12 same question -- 13 THE COURT: Oh. 14 MR. WEINBERG: -- so -- 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q And they had -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Actually, a number of questions 19 you asked I was going to ask. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q They spent quite a bit -- quite a number of hours 22 looking at those PC folders in December of '98, didn't they? 23 A I think a total of four to six hours a day, times 24 two. 25 Q Right.
408 1 Plus they spent time talking to you about their 2 review of the PC folders. Because while they were reviewing 3 them, they couldn't talk to you, because there was a 4 representative from the Church of Scientology there. 5 A That's not true. They were in my conference room 6 alone. I was in there from time to time, talking to them. 7 Q Well, where was Glen Steilo, the representative of 8 the church? 9 A He was sitting across the hall in the reception 10 area. 11 Q All right. Now, Stacy Brooks, once the LMT opened 12 up, she -- she was being paid and was working at the LMT. 13 So beginning in January of 2000, whatever money Stacy Brooks 14 was getting was coming from someone other than you. 15 A You know, I had no personal knowledge of that. 16 Q Okay. But you know that she was supposedly 17 working full-time on the LMT at that point, until it closed. 18 A Well, she was working full-time. Whether or not 19 she's been paid to do that, I have no idea. 20 Q Okay. And during that period of time, from 21 December, '99, January of 2000, until the LMT closed, 22 whenever it was, in the fall of 2001, Stacy Brooks did 23 things on the wrongful death case, as your consultant, while 24 she was at the LMT, being paid by the LMT. Yes? 25 A No. I -- I can't say yes. I mean, if she showed
409 1 up at a depo or she showed up at a hearing, then I can say 2 yes, if you show me that. 3 Q Okay. I guess I need -- 4 A Otherwise -- 5 Q -- to show it to you. 6 A -- it was, you know, just talking to her briefly. 7 Q Okay. Stacy Brooks came to Benetta Slaughter's 8 depo, didn't she? 9 THE COURT: Don't have him try to guess. He 10 doesn't know. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I was in the process of 12 walking -- 13 THE COURT: Give him what you've got -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 15 THE COURT: -- and let him see it, and then 16 he'll acknowledge if she was there, if she was. 17 Give him all of them at one time. You don't need to 18 drag this thing out for 20 minutes, what can be done 19 in five. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I know I've got them separated, 21 so -- 22 THE COURT: Well, unseparate them. 23 THE WITNESS: I'll do that for you if you want. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I've got them in packages. 25 THE WITNESS: I know. I can answer the
410 1 anticipated question, but saying if it says I was 2 there -- 3 THE COURT: Yeah. Well, that's what I said. 4 He says he can't remember who was at what 5 deposition. And I think that's very fair. So I 6 think that you need to show him and then he'll 7 acknowledge. If it says there on the page that she 8 was there, she was there. 9 I presume you will. 10 THE WITNESS: I will. And my memory serves me, 11 is Jesse and Stacy were both there, but Stacy left. 12 She didn't stay for the whole thing. That's my -- 13 what my memory tells me. 14 THE COURT: For what? 15 THE WITNESS: Benetta Slaughter's deposition, 16 or the other two employees of Benetta Slaughter, 17 Katie Chamberlain, Brenda Hubert Spencer. 18 THE COURT: I still can't even remember when 19 LMT opened. Was it November, '99? 20 MR. WEINBERG: No. It was -- the office 21 actually opened on January 4th or 5th of 2000, but 22 the organization was incorporated in November of 23 '99, and so they were setting it up between November 24 and when the actual office over in Clearwater opened 25 at the beginning of 2000.
411 1 THE WITNESS: They were looking for office 2 space in November, December, '99. 3 THE COURT: Did you say it opened in January of 4 2000? 5 MR. WEINBERG: The building opened, but the LMT 6 had already opened. They were operating -- at first 7 they said they were using Mr. Dandar's office, and 8 then they were looking for space. And they found a 9 building in Clearwater. 10 THE WITNESS: Well -- 11 THE COURT: They said they were using his 12 office to look for a building. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 14 THE COURT: They never really said they 15 operated out of it, was my recollection, but -- 16 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 17 THE COURT: -- the record will speak for 18 itself. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Here's -- 20 THE COURT: Thank you. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I'm still separating -- 22 THE WITNESS: So according to the Benetta 23 Slaughter -- 24 THE COURT: Wait a second. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have my copy yet. We
412 1 had them neatly organized in stacks -- 2 THE COURT: Until I screwed you up. 3 There's that word, "screwed," in transcripts 4 again. Oh, well. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I try to leave that out. 6 What was that other -- 7 THE COURT: I suppose it could be worse. 8 "Get a hat." 9 MR. WEINBERG: "Get a hat." 10 THE WITNESS: Now, where does that come from? 11 THE COURT: I don't know. It's just an 12 expression I've always used. "Take a hike." "Get a 13 hat." There's a vulgar way of expressing it that 14 people should not use, certainly, in court. 15 THE WITNESS: Right. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Okay. Now, December 7th, 1999, Ms. Brooks made an 18 appearance at the Bennetta Slaughter deposition. Which 19 obviously we know who Bennetta Slaughter is. You brought 20 Mr. Brooks and Mr. Prince. But at this point, Ms. Brooks 21 was affiliated with the LMT, and you didn't pay her for this 22 work, is that right? 23 A And the notice says it's only a half-hour long, 24 so -- I don't understand that. 25 I think that's when Bennetta Slaughter got up and
413 1 walked out. 2 Q Okay. Now December 14th, '99. That's the 3 hearing -- I think you will agree that's the hearing in 4 front of Judge Moody. 5 THE COURT: I don't have that one. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Here. We might have left this 7 out. 8 THE COURT: I hope I don't have two of them 9 or -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 11 THE COURT: Okay. I got it now. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q Now, that's the hearing -- that's the big hearing 14 that was in front of Judge Moody, in which the Sea Org 15 argument about adding David Miscavige was argued, right? 16 A December 14th of '99? No. 17 Q That's when -- that's when it was. 18 A No. 19 Q Yes. 20 THE COURT: No sense in arguing between the two 21 of you all. I don't want to hear it. 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 23 Let me think. Let me think. 24 THE COURT: Just get -- 25 A It's possible. How's that? I mean, it's
414 1 possible. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q All right. Well, this is a hearing that you 4 brought both Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince to, in any event, 5 right? 6 A Well, you know, I -- I probably asked Jesse to be 7 there, but I'm not sure I asked Stacy to be there. 8 Q In any event, she was your consultant at that 9 point, and you didn't pay her, right? 10 A Right. 11 Q December 22nd, 1999 hearing in front of Judge 12 Moody, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Prince and Vaughn Young shows an 13 appearance. 14 A Isn't this a deposition of Vaughn Young? 15 Q I'm sorry. No. I don't think so. 16 A Right here, December 21st and 22nd of '99. 17 THE COURT: I think you're looking at the wrong 18 one. 19 MR. WEINBERG: December 22nd of '99, which is a 20 hearing. 21 THE COURT: It was my next one. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. All right. 23 THE COURT: Mine was out of order. The next 24 one really is the 21st and 22nd. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
415 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not sure what that was 2 about, but she's there. 3 THE COURT: Just go through these, all of them. 4 Just say what they are and he'll say that she was 5 there, and then you can ask your question. 6 A Okay. So she did show up for a time or two at the 7 two-day deposition of Vaughn Young on December 21st and 22nd 8 of 1999. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Okay. 11 A They hadn't seen each other for a long time, and 12 it was very emotional for both of them. 13 Q But she was there as your consultant in that -- in 14 that -- in that deposition, wasn't she? 15 A No. She was there because Vaughn was there and 16 she wanted to support him. 17 THE COURT: Well, Vaughn Young was -- was 18 another one of these anti-Scientologists, right? I 19 mean, he didn't need her to help you -- 20 THE WITNESS: No. They were -- 21 THE COURT: -- with his testimony. 22 THE WITNESS: They were separated. They were 23 divorced. 24 THE COURT: I understand that. 25 THE WITNESS: Right.
416 1 THE COURT: He was on the same side at that 2 time that Ms. Young was on. 3 THE WITNESS: Correct. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q And Mr. Young was your expert witness. You had 6 told Judge Moody that he was dying. You had announced that 7 you needed to take his deposition to preserve his testimony 8 for trial, correct? 9 A Yes. That's all true. 10 Q Right. 11 And at this deposition, we were allowed to do a 12 discovery deposition, and then you took a trial testimony in 13 January, correct? 14 A Yes. Yes. 15 And fortunately, he's actually still alive. 16 Q All right. What's your next -- what's the next 17 one there? 'Cause mine are all out of order. 18 THE COURT: The one I show next is 19 January 21st, which is a videotaped deposition of 20 Robert Young. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 22 THE COURT: And I do not see Ms. Young -- 23 Ms. Brooks there. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I see -- you can take that 25 one out.
417 1 THE WITNESS: Page 65, Mr. Weinberg just 2 announced -- 3 She must have walked in. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I see what it is. Page 65, 5 "For the record, can we note that Mr. Young's 6 ex-wife, Stacy Brooks, is now present at counsel 7 table?" 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q And you didn't pay her for that appearance, 10 correct? 11 A No. 12 And I don't know how long she stayed. 13 Q Okay. And what's the next one on your list? 14 THE COURT: March 15th, 2000, deposition of 15 Bennetta Slaughter. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 And that was the full deposition of Bennetta 19 Slaughter, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And you brought both Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks as 22 your consultants and they're listed as consultants there, 23 right? 24 A Yes. But I only really brought Jesse Prince. 25 Stacy just showed up.
418 1 Q Well, I know you say that. 2 A Well -- 3 Q But she didn't just show up. You asked her to be 4 there? 5 A I don't think so. I asked Jesse to be there. 6 THE COURT: You know, the truth of the matter 7 is, she was there. You didn't ask her to leave, did 8 you? 9 THE WITNESS: Well -- 10 THE COURT: And you didn't pay her. 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 THE COURT: And at that time, she was acting 13 from time to time as your consultant. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 15 THE COURT: So don't make this difficult for 16 us, Mr. Dandar. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, Judge, I'm not. When I 18 say -- I asked -- I mean, I have to be accurate. I 19 didn't ask -- 20 THE COURT: You don't know whether you did or 21 not. 22 THE WITNESS: No. I'm pretty sure I didn't. 23 THE COURT: "I'm pretty sure I didn't." "I 24 don't think I did." You don't know. The deal is, 25 she's there.
419 1 THE WITNESS: That's right. She is there. 2 THE COURT: You let her stay. She was your 3 consultant. If you hadn't wanted her there, you 4 could have told her to get out. 5 THE WITNESS: Correct. I never told her to 6 leave. 7 THE COURT: Right. And she was your 8 consultant. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 THE COURT: And you were free to consult with 11 her, if you needed to, before, after or during, 12 right? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 14 THE COURT: And you didn't pay her. 15 That's all this is trying to establish. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 THE COURT: Whatever work that was. Okay? 18 THE WITNESS: All right. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q And the last one -- 21 THE COURT: -- is a transcript of a proceeding 22 before Mr. Moody -- I'm sorry -- Judge Moody on May 23 the 3rd of 2000. And of course, I don't know what 24 it was, but it's a -- some proceeding, May of 2000. 25
420 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q And Ms. Brooks shows again and -- in addition to 3 Mr. Prince and Mr. Haverty, who's -- 4 THE COURT: And Dr. Garko. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q And -- and Dr. Garko, who are all your 8 consultants, right? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. If we can mark those 11 as the next exhibit? Because mine are screwed up. 12 THE COURT: Well, Madam Clerk, if you would put 13 these in order by date, A, B, C, D, E, whatever it 14 is, by date. And it'll be the next in order -- 15 THE CLERK: 156. 16 THE COURT: -- 156. 17 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Can I take yours, 18 Ken? 19 THE COURT: I'm out of paper clips, Madam 20 Clerk. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I have a ton in my desk. 22 THE COURT: Wait. My clerk here -- 23 Oh, if you've got some there -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: I've been pulling them off. 25 THE COURT: And the clerk and I can share.
421 1 MR. WEINBERG: Here's a few. 2 THE COURT: I've got some here now. Thanks. 3 All right. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Got a few more, rather than 5 throw them away. 6 THE COURT: Well, mine are all packed at home, 7 so I may take these. At home, all these boxes are 8 packed up and I can't find anything. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Now, in that clip that we played, you certainly, 11 in December of 1999, which is right after you incorporated 12 the Lisa McPherson Trust, it certainly didn't sound like you 13 were unenthusiastic about the Lisa McPherson Trust, did it? 14 A Well, I guess that's subject to interpretation. I 15 mean, it is what it is. 16 Q And is there a particular reason why you at this 17 press -- at this -- at this proceeding or whatever it was, 18 where the press was invited, were the one that actually 19 announced the formation and creation of the Lisa McPherson 20 Trust? 21 THE COURT: I think he's explained that. I 22 think he says -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 24 THE COURT: -- he just remembers -- now, I 25 don't know, but his remembrance is he was one of
422 1 several speakers who were asked to speak, and that 2 was what he said. 3 THE WITNESS: There's no question about that. 4 I just was asked to speak, one of many people. 5 Other people were talking about the trust as well. 6 THE COURT: But this was an opportunity to sort 7 of show off the trust or announce the trust for the 8 benefit of the community and/or the press, right? 9 THE WITNESS: That's right. Even though they 10 had no office space, no place to go. 11 THE COURT: I mean, the press was invited, I 12 take it. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 And again, I had nothing to do with that. I 15 think either the trust or Mr. Jacobson, who had 16 organized pickets before, before I ever even knew 17 about the Church of Scientology in downtown 18 Clearwater -- he may have -- I'm pretty sure he's 19 the one that organized that whole thing. 20 THE COURT: Okay. I'm on my last page. I take 21 it you're going to a new topic. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Had a couple more questions -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. WEINBERG: -- about the LMT. 25 THE COURT: Go ahead. I'm going to change
423 1 books here, but I've got another one. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q Now, in addition to utilizing for free the 5 services of Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince while they were 6 employed at the LMT, you also, at a particular point in 7 time, served as counsel for the LMT, right, in the wrongful 8 death case. 9 A Well, my answer to that -- 10 THE COURT: That's a very -- 11 A -- is no. 12 THE COURT: -- confusing question. You served 13 as -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I'll make it -- 15 THE COURT: -- counsel for LMT in the wrongful 16 death case. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I'll -- 18 THE COURT: Clarify it. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I'll make it -- I'll make it 20 clear. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q It's true that you appeared as counsel for LMT. 24 A The answer to that broad question is no. There 25 may have been one time I went to Judge Penick because they
424 1 didn't have a lawyer and they needed someone desperately for 2 the injunction suit. And I may have been there, but I don't 3 remember -- unless you show me something, I don't ever, ever 4 remember representing LMT in the wrongful death case of Lisa 5 McPherson. 6 Q Well, let's start with the wrongful death case 7 and -- let's do that. 8 MR. WEINBERG: If I can approach? 9 THE COURT: You may. If you've got more than 10 one -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, this is -- this is -- 12 THE COURT: Let's -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: -- a little different, Judge, 14 procedure. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Now, this Judge Penick appearance had to do 18 with -- 19 This was on March 24th, 2000, right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And you're shown here as the attorney for the 22 McPherson Trust. And you actually appeared in court that 23 day and said, on page 4, "Yes, sir. For the record, my name 24 is Ken Dandar, and I represent the Lisa McPherson Trust, 25 Incorporated."
425 1 A Well, that's what it says. 2 Q All right. 3 A That's what I just told you. My memory is -- 4 Q Right. And that had to do with the picketing? 5 A Well, according to this, it had to do with the 6 picketing and -- and OSA, Richard Howd filing suit against 7 Mr. Minton to get Mr. Minton and anyone associated with him 8 to stop picketing. 9 Q And did you bill the Lisa McPherson Trust for 10 that? 11 A No. 12 Q Mr. Minton asked you to appear for the Lisa 13 McPherson Trust? 14 A Somebody did. I can't -- I don't know if it was 15 him or Stacy or -- 16 Q My specific question is, do you recall that it was 17 Mr. Minton, since this had to do with -- with an incident 18 that involved Mr. Minton -- was it Mr. Minton that asked you 19 to appear in behalf of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 20 A I don't think so. I don't really know the answer 21 to that. 22 Q And -- and the reason you didn't bill the Lisa 23 McPherson Trust is that Mr. Minton was already paying you in 24 the wrongful death case? 25 A No. Maybe. I mean, really, there's lots of
426 1 people I don't bill for things. I mean, as strange as that 2 sounds. But I didn't bill for it. 3 THE COURT: Well, it's certainly possible, 4 since he was your benefactor, that you thought it 5 might be offensive to him if you had billed him for 6 some small appearance. 7 THE WITNESS: That's right. 8 THE COURT: Well, then say so. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- he -- he didn't ask me 10 why. I just said I don't remember -- I know I 11 didn't bill him for it. But that would be the 12 reason why. It would be offensive. It would be 13 picayune. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q What -- 16 THE COURT: Somebody -- 17 THE WITNESS: It would be -- 18 THE COURT: Somebody was giving me all that 19 money and I made a little appearance, I don't think 20 I'd send them a bill. 21 On the other hand what counsel's trying to show 22 is here you are appearing for LMT, probably at his 23 request, free. 24 THE WITNESS: It could be at his request; it 25 could be at Stacy's request. It was at the request
427 1 of the corporation. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Right. There were a number of things that you did 4 for Mr. Minton: This appearance, incorporating the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust, other things that you did because he asked 6 you to do it, and you didn't send him a bill for it, right? 7 A Those two were the only things. If he was 8 involved in this hearing, asking me to come, that would be 9 true. 10 Q Well, also utilizing the services of Jesse Prince, 11 Stacy Brooks, that he was paying for. He asked you to do 12 that and you did it. 13 A No. 14 Q Didn't bill him for it. 15 A No. That's not true. 16 Q All right. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor -- 18 A How would I bill him for using the services of 19 Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks? I don't get that part of 20 your question. Is that what you meant to say? 21 THE COURT: Save it for argument. Move on. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm handing to the clerk what I 23 just -- the March 24th, 2000 cover -- the three 24 pages of this Penick thing. We'll mark it as our 25 next exhibit, which would be --
428 1 THE CLERK: 157. 2 MR. WEINBERG: -- 157. So what we just went 3 over was 157. 4 THE COURT: Oh. I called it 155. 5 It's 157, Madam Clerk? 6 THE CLERK: Yes. 7 MR. WEINBERG: 156 -- 8 THE COURT: I was putting some stuff in order 9 and I put 154 on top. 10 What is it? 157. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. WEINBERG: 156 was the Stacy -- 14 THE COURT: No, I got it. I just put -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 16 THE COURT: -- another one down on top. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q And you were also, in April -- March, April, early 19 May of 2000, representing the Lisa McPherson Trust with 20 regard to discovery matters in the wrongful death case. 21 A No. 22 Q Weren't you? 23 A No. 24 Q Well, let me show you two letters that I'll hand 25 up, that you signed, or two memos that you signed, and ask
429 1 you to look at those and see if that refreshes your 2 recollection of what you were doing. 3 Now, these are two memos that you sent and signed 4 and faxed to Rick Moxon, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q One is on 4-21-2000 and one is on 4-24-2000, 7 right? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And these have to do, among other things, with the 10 discovery involving the Lisa McPherson Trust, don't they? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And you are the lawyer that is communicating with 13 a defendant in this case's lawyer concerning a Lisa 14 McPherson Trust deposition. There wasn't anybody else other 15 than you, right? 16 A But I am not representing the Lisa McPherson 17 Trust. And both these memos do not even come close to 18 saying that. 19 Q No. But you're just making representations for 20 the Lisa McPherson Trust counsel. 21 A I'm relaying information given to me by Stacy 22 Brooks that, number one, on the first one, 4-21-00, no one's 23 going to appear for the LMT, Incorporated deposition. 24 Better reschedule it, because there's a conflict in the 25 scheduling. That's number one.
430 1 And the other one, dated 4-21-2000, I'm relaying 2 to the -- you know, the judge asked me -- Judge Moody asked 3 me to contact the LMT and see if they're going to produce 4 these videos of witnesses, and so I'm relaying to Mr. Moxon, 5 pursuant to Judge Moody's order, what I've been told by the 6 LMT. 7 And as you know, Mr. Leipold appeared for the 8 first deposition of the LMT, representing the LMT. 9 Q He appeared for the deposition of Robert Peterson. 10 He didn't appear for the LMT, did he? 11 A He appeared for the LMT. Mr. Peterson was the 12 corporate designated representative of a corporate 13 deposition. 14 Q All right. So -- so -- Mr. Moxon was to take this 15 as not a suggestion that you were speaking for the LMT; you 16 were just acting as a go-between between the defense and the 17 LMT? 18 A Yeah. I was relating information I received, 19 maintaining my position only as the attorney for estate. 20 Q All right. And the LMT at that point didn't have 21 a lawyer, did they, on April 21st and April 24th. 22 A Well -- 23 Q 'Cause if they did, the lawyer would have been 24 doing these memos, right? 25 A No. They did have a lawyer. Mr. Leipold.
431 1 Mr. Merrett was coming into the picture, maybe. But it was 2 Judge Moody who asked me to do this. 3 Q Well, you remember that you appeared in front of 4 Judge Moody on April the 10th -- 5 THE COURT: Are you introducing these or not? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I was going to follow your 7 instructions. And there's one other thing that goes 8 with these two. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Or several other things that 11 went with these two. So I was going to do it all at 12 once. 13 THE COURT: All right. I thought you said you 14 were just going to do a couple more things here. 15 Sounds to me like you've got a lot of stuff -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 17 THE COURT: -- and you're into another area. 18 MR. WEINBERG: We can stop for a break now. I 19 can pick up. 20 THE COURT: It isn't a break. I told you I 21 wanted to get a new pad. I had one page left. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I'm sorry. 23 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. Keep going. 24 I was trying to start and finish in one area, and I 25 thought perhaps we were at a good stopping point,
432 1 and you said, "No, I've got one or two questions." 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 3 THE COURT: Here we are. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Here I am. 5 THE COURT: Here you are. 6 Go on ahead. 7 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q You -- you, Ken Dandar, was the lawyer that was in 10 court doing the argument with regard to the production of 11 tapes from LMT before Judge Moody, correct? 12 A In April, 2000? 13 Q Yes. 14 A Yeah. Because I was already getting clued in onto 15 how abusive this was going to be, and I didn't want to have 16 to spend time and time and time on these depositions. 17 Q But there was a hearing on April the 10th in which 18 Judge Moody essentially ordered that -- that a 19 representative be produced, and that -- that tapes be 20 produced. 21 A A very limited order, which Mr. Moxon was going 22 well beyond his order. That's what these two -- this second 23 memo of 4-21 talks about in the last paragraph. 24 Q Well -- 25 A Or the last two paragraphs.
433 1 Q Let me just hand up -- 2 THE COURT: It really doesn't matter what all 3 this was. Whatever it is you've got there, if he 4 was there representing LMT, that's the issue, that's 5 the question -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: It is. 7 THE COURT: -- let him explain it if he wants 8 to. 9 MR. WEINBERG: It is. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q I'll show you what page to go to. 12 If you go to page -- well, it's the -- page 13, 13 14, 15, 16 -- 14 A 13. 15 Q -- 17? 16 A Yeah. 13, line 3. I talk about why -- the 17 explanation for the first memo, is because Mr. Moxon went 18 ahead and set this deposition, even though you and I and 19 everybody else involved in the case sat down together to go 20 over our calendars. He just throws out a date that wasn't 21 cleared with anybody. 22 Q Okay. Go to the bottom of 14. This is your 23 argument to Judge Moody. And you're making an argument in 24 behalf of the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct? 25 A No. I'm making an argument on behalf of the
434 1 estate, because he's scheduling depositions of people who 2 are not on my witness list, had nothing to do with the Lisa 3 McPherson death case whatsoever. 4 And I am going to make a bet that in this 5 transcript here or somewhere in here we talk about who I'm 6 representing. And I -- I'm pretty sure this is the one 7 where I say I do not represent the LMT. 8 Q Then, on 23, you say, "The only --" I mean, we're 9 talking -- the argument is about this tape. I mean, 10 remember, the tape we're talking about, Mr. Dandar, is the 11 tape that we played a clip from when Ms. Brooks was on the 12 stand, where she and Jesse Prince and Bob Minton and Mark 13 Bunker and someone else was talking about end of cycle. Do 14 you remember that tape? 15 A I saw that tape at this hearing. 16 Q Right. 17 A That was the first time -- 18 Q And that was the tape -- 19 A -- I saw that tape. 20 Q That was the tape that was the subject of this 21 hearing, that you were making an appearance, arguing about. 22 And ultimately that tape, a week or so later, was produced 23 by you from the trunk of your car, or you had it in the 24 trunk of your car at the deposition of Robert Peterson, and 25 shortly thereafter you turned it over to the -- to the
435 1 church, pursuant -- to church counsel, pursuant to Judge 2 Moody's order, right? 3 A Judge Moody's order said they had to pay for it 4 first. They refused to do that. That's why I didn't hand 5 it over to them. I'm listening to Judge Moody's order. 6 Q And to make a long story short, you were the 7 person, you were the go-between, you were the 8 representative -- you were the representative that dealt 9 with the Lisa McPherson Trust and their employee over there, 10 Mark Bunker, with regard to turning over this tape that had 11 been ordered pursuant to discovery hearings that had taken 12 place, right? 13 A I was the go-between. Right. That's about the 14 best way to classify it. 15 Q And were you paid for that work that you did, by 16 the Lisa McPherson Trust, Bob Minton or anyone else? 17 A No. Because it all happened at the deposition, 18 where I had to be anyway. 19 Q Okay. And then you did go to -- to Mr. Peterson's 20 depo, right? 21 A Yes, I did. Where Mr. Leipold appeared by phone. 22 Q For Mr. Peterson. 23 A To represent the LMT. 24 Q All right. Let me just hand up to you, if I can, 25 page 22 from the Peterson deposition, April 24th, tell you
436 1 to look at page 22. And tell me if that reflects the time 2 of the deposition when you told us -- told the church that 3 you had this tape, that we now know is the tape with the end 4 of cycle, Jesse Prince, on it, in -- in your car. 5 A You know, I can't -- I have no idea what tape I 6 had, all right? You tell me it's the end of cycle video. I 7 don't know that. 8 Q Okay. You had a video of witnesses in the case 9 that had been ordered to be produced by the LMT in this 10 case, right? 11 A After it was paid for, which Mr. Moxon or your 12 client refused to do. We had to go back to court, tell 13 Judge Moody about it. He said, "Pay for the tape that I 14 ordered you to do before." And when, then, the check was 15 presented, and then the Church of Scientology got the video 16 after they complied with the court order. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Wait a minute. 19 All right. 20 Q Okay. 21 MR. WEINBERG: So I'll mark as our next 22 composite exhibit, your Honor -- 23 THE COURT: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. WEINBERG: -- the 4-21-2000 memo from 25 Mr. Dandar to Mr. Moxon, the 4-24-2000 memo from
437 1 Mr. Dandar to Mr. Moxon, the transcript of the 2 April 10th hearing, and this few pages from the 3 April 24th, 2000 videotaped deposition of Robert 4 Peterson, which I have not handed to you, but -- 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. WEINBERG: You want to look at it real 7 quickly? 8 THE COURT: No. But if you're going to make it 9 part of this exhibit -- are you going to make it -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, we will. We have to pull 11 it out. 12 And that will be Number 158, composite exhibit. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. WEINBERG: At the break, we'll hand you up 15 a -- a copy of -- 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. WEINBERG: -- of the Peterson. 18 THE COURT: Well, it's time to take a break so 19 we'll take it now. 20 My exhibit is not complete. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 22 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until a quarter 23 till, or at such time as I finish jillions of calls 24 that are on my desk to be returned. 25 (A recess was taken at 10:32 a.m.)
438 1 (The proceedings resumed at 10:56 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Okay. Let's proceed. 3 MR. WEINBERG: This is the last one, 158-D. 4 It's the last attachment on that 158. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Next week is trial week, so 6 I'll probably have that awful chair back. I imagine 7 Judge Lenderman will -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: What you do is you just put it 9 in your office during the weekend -- 10 THE COURT: Or something. 11 MR. WEINBERG: -- and maybe he won't find it. 12 THE COURT: Right. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 14 THE COURT: I don't understand it. You know, I 15 was the chief judge for six years. You'd think I 16 would have some priority over these chairs. But 17 they just snatch my chairs away. I get no respect 18 anymore. Once you're the past chief judge, nobody 19 cares. Gone. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q What I've just shown you, Mr. Dandar, is part of a 22 transcript before Judge Moody, dated March 22nd, 2000. And 23 refer you to page 97 of the transcript, and refer you to 24 what you said there to Judge Moody. 25 "Okay. I mean I'm here silently thinking that
439 1 this is outrage, but I need to speak. I don't represent 2 Mr. Minton. I do represent the Lisa McPherson Trust. 3 Mr. Prince is a volunteer for that trust. I represent him 4 in Pinellas County." 5 That's what you told Judge Moody on March 22nd, 6 2000. And that is true, that on March 22nd, 2000, in the 7 wrongful death case, you were the lawyer for the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust, right? 9 A I don't think that's -- I think that's out of 10 context to be honest with you. I think -- 11 Where was Judge Penick -- when was his hearing? 12 I mean, we were talking about another case on page 13 96, trying to put somebody in jail. 14 If you look at 96, 3 through 7 -- I'm not really 15 remembering what that was all about. 16 THE COURT: The long and short of it is you 17 don't dispute the accuracy of the transcript. 18 THE WITNESS: Right. But I think it was 19 talking about Judge Penick -- 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q All right. I'm going to -- 22 THE WITNESS: -- and the injunction. I mean, 23 I'm not going to read the whole thing -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Well, we can get the 25 full transcript.
440 1 I'm going to mark this, your Honor, as the next 2 exhibit, which is -- 3 THE CLERK: 159. 4 MR. WEINBERG: -- 159. 5 THE WITNESS: What I said is, "I don't 6 represent Mr. Minton. He has no control over the 7 litigation." 8 I don't know what we were talking about. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Now -- now, for the record, your 10 Honor -- and I'll move on to the next subject -- I 11 wanted to mark as my next exhibit the full 12 transcript of Mr. Dandar's speech, snippets of which 13 we have played, one this morning and one earlier 14 when Ms. Brooks was on the stand. And that's the 15 December 4th, 1999 speech to the -- where the media 16 was present, announcing the Lisa McPherson Trust, 17 among other things. And the other snippet we played 18 where Mr. Dandar talked about Mr. Prince and the end 19 of cycle. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. WEINBERG: So I'm going to mark that as an 22 exhibit and I'll hand everybody a copy. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Lirot, I presume if you ever 24 have an objection, you'll speak up. This is just 25 coming in.
441 1 MR. LIROT: Judge, these all seem to be court 2 transcripts, and we'll just let them speak for 3 themselves. 4 THE COURT: It's not that I'm trying to ignore 5 you. I just assume if you have an objection to 6 anything, you'll let me know. 7 MR. LIROT: I'm here, Judge. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. WEINBERG: That'll be the next exhibit, 10 Judge, and then I'll go on. 11 THE CLERK: That's 160? 12 MR. WEINBERG: 160. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q Now, yesterday when we went through those witness 15 lists, we talked about a witness on the witness list named 16 Frank Oliver, who is on your current witness list, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And -- 19 THE COURT: Would somebody tell me? What do 20 you call him for? 21 THE WITNESS: He's a former OSA member, to talk 22 about his -- how OSA operates. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q And --
442 1 THE COURT: For what? For what? In the -- in 2 the wrongful death case? 3 THE WITNESS: OSA would have been extremely 4 involved in the Lisa McPherson isolation watch. 5 THE COURT: Okay. So that this is, in other 6 words -- 7 THE WITNESS: And it reports all the way up the 8 line to the very top -- 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 THE WITNESS: -- which includes Mr. Miscavige. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Now, I asked you about Mr. Oliver. I asked you if 13 he was connected with the LMT. And I believe you said that 14 you didn't know much about him because he was from Miami. 15 You remember that? 16 A That's not what I said, but -- 17 I said I don't think he had any official position 18 with the LMT. He has a business in Miami that does graphic 19 arts. And I know that for some of the pickets, he did some 20 banners or signs or something. 21 Q Now, what you didn't say is -- 22 A Oh. 23 Q -- is that you, Ken Dandar, actually represented 24 Mr. Oliver in -- before the Pinellas Suncoast Transit 25 Authority, the PSTA, on February 24th, 1999, in a public
443 1 hearing involving anti-Scientology bus signs that had been 2 purchased by Mr. Oliver and placed on city or county buses 3 in Pinellas County in the fall or in December of 1998. 4 THE COURT: That sounds like a speech to me. 5 THE WITNESS: Whew. 6 THE COURT: Do you have a question? 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Is it true -- 9 A What -- 10 Q -- that you represented Mr. Oliver as well as 11 other anti-Scientologists on February 24th, 1999, in a 12 public hearing, with regard to anti-Scientology signs on 13 buses? 14 A Number one, I was not asked that question, if I 15 represented him, in another question. 16 Q Well, just answer that question. 17 A I am. 18 Number two, I believe I represented an 19 organization called Former Scientologists Speaking Out, 20 FSSO, of which Mr. Oliver was a principal. Whether or not 21 that's a corporation or -- or what, I don't know what that 22 is as I'm sitting here today. But I did go and represent 23 that interest, FSSO, for the illegal removal of free-speech 24 banners from chartered buses, which actually resulted in the 25 Pinellas County Bus -- Transit Authority removing all
444 1 noncommercial signs from their buses afterwards. 2 THE COURT: Is the answer to the question yes? 3 THE WITNESS: Whew. I'm sorry. 4 THE COURT: That's your explanation, but we 5 don't have an answer to the question. 6 You did represent him at that hearing? 7 THE WITNESS: I did represent him at that 8 hearing, yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Yeah. The -- do you remember that the signs -- at 12 that hearing, you were in behalf of this organization and 13 Mr. Oliver, objecting to the removal of the anti-Scientology 14 banners or signs from the buses, correct? 15 A Yes. Under First Amendment rights, that's right. 16 Q And you took the position that under the First 17 Amendment, or whatever amendment, that -- that it was 18 completely appropriate for anti-Scientology signs to be on 19 city or county buses. 20 A Absolutely. 21 Q And you were being paid for this appearance by 22 Mr. Minton? 23 A No. I wasn't paid at all. 24 Q So this was another free appearance? 25 A I felt very strongly about the First Amendment,
445 1 yes. 2 Q And -- 3 A The answer is yes. It was free. Pro bono. 4 Q And did you talk to Mr. Minton about this? 5 A No. 6 Q The other anti-Scientologists that were part of 7 this group were -- include -- included who? Mr. Prince? 8 Ms. Brooks? 9 A No. No. The only one I recall it includes was 10 Mr. Oliver. There was somebody else. Right now I can't 11 remember who that is. 12 Q Okay. Let me show you -- 13 A It could have been Jeff Jacobsen, but -- 14 No, he's not a former Scientologist. 15 So I don't know who it was. 16 Q And after this Mr. Oliver became not only part of 17 your witness list but part -- became affiliated with the 18 LMT. 19 A What was the date? 20 Q After this, I said. This is -- 21 A No. What was the date of the hearing? 22 Q February, '99. 23 A Well, a year later? Okay. 24 Q Well, so you know when Mr. Oliver became 25 affiliated with the LMT?
446 1 A Oh, no. I mean, you said that he -- he was, so 2 I'm assuming you're telling the truth. But that's a year 3 later. 4 Q Let me -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: If I can approach. 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q Now, if you'll flip through these signs, can you 8 identify these as the signs that you were objecting to the 9 removal of from the city or county buses? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you remember that these were the signs? 12 A No. 13 Q Well, did you know what signs there were when you 14 appeared for Mr. Oliver at the hearing insisting that they 15 be put back on the buses? 16 A I'm sure I did at the time. 17 Q Do you think these signs are appropriate -- 18 Did you believe that these signs were going to -- 19 to generate the kind of negative publicity that you were 20 looking for to assist in the wrongful death case? 21 A I was never looking for negative publicity in the 22 wrongful death case. As you know, the case was pending in 23 Tampa, Florida at the time, so this would have nothing to do 24 with the case in Tampa, Florida until you moved to bring it 25 to St. Petersburg.
447 1 Q So the answer to my question is no, right? 2 A The answer is no. I don't think -- I don't -- I 3 can't say under oath that these are the signs. I see 4 FACTNet, and I don't -- I don't recall FACTnet being 5 involved in this case. 6 Q Well, FACTNet.org is Mr. Minton's company, right? 7 A No. It's a nonprofit. 8 Q That's -- 9 A It's not anybody's company. 10 Q By this time, Mr. Minton has essentially taken 11 over. 12 A Not to my knowledge. 13 Q Well, when did you learn that -- that he took over 14 FACTNet? 15 A I have never learned that he took over FACTNet. 16 THE COURT: You know, if the Church of 17 Scientology is a nonprofit corporation, now, do you 18 want me to start thinking that David Miscavige is -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: No, of course not. 20 THE COURT: Of course not. 21 MR. WEINBERG: And I'll -- 22 THE COURT: And that's why you can't, in 23 fairness, start saying -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: I'll ask the question 25 differently, because it wasn't a very well-worded
448 1 question. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q When did you learn that Mr. Minton had become 4 affiliated with FACTNet? 5 A When he gave me the Person of the Year award. 6 Q And that was -- 7 A I have no idea. 8 Q -- in 19 -- at the end of 1998, right? 9 A I have no idea. Whatever it says. 10 Q Or '97, I guess. 11 All right. Well, look at the next to last page of 12 these photos here, of the buses. 13 A Okay. 14 Q "Who really reads your confidential PC folders?" 15 Now, at this point in February of 1999, the only 16 person that you're aware of that was reading confidential PC 17 folders, that were not in the Church of Scientology, was 18 Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks, right? 19 A You know, that's -- you can't connect that to this 20 sign. I mean, come on. 21 Q Well, do you think these signs are appropriate? 22 "Want to leave the Sea Org? We can help." "Don't walk, 23 run." "Quit Scientology," with a dollar sign. 24 A You know, my opinion on what's appropriate is just 25 irrelevant to anything I can think of.
449 1 Q Well, I think -- but you know, Mr. Dandar, you're 2 the one that appeared in a public proceeding for a person 3 trying to get these signs back up on buses, at the very time 4 that you were suing Scientology, right? 5 A So what? This is a free-speech issue, that 6 Scientology proclaims that it adheres to and supports. And 7 here they were getting these signs taken down, violating 8 someone else's free speech. 9 Q And it just happened that -- that the free speech 10 in this particular case went hand in hand with what you're 11 doing in your lawsuit? 12 A Not at all. It has nothing to do with Lisa 13 McPherson. As you'll note, there's not one mention of Lisa 14 McPherson on here. 15 Q Okay. Let me -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Can I approach, your Honor? 17 THE COURT: What was the date of this hearing? 18 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to show you. 19 It's February 24th, 1999. 20 THE COURT: And where was the lawsuit pending 21 at that time? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Where was it pending? 23 THE COURT: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. WEINBERG: It was in Tampa. 25 THE COURT: Were any of these signs on the bus
450 1 in Hillsborough County? 2 MR. WEINBERG: They were in Pinellas County. 3 THE COURT: All right. Then I think that to 4 try to connect these two is a little farfetched. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I guess, your Honor, it is 6 not exactly a big community. I mean, it's not -- 7 we're talking Pinellas County is -- is -- whatever 8 it is -- 9 THE COURT: Pinellas County is the third 10 largest county, or close to it, in the state of 11 Florida. Hillsborough County is the next largest 12 county. Or it may be just vice-versa. These are 13 both very large counties. And the fact that 14 somebody lives in Hillsborough County does not mean 15 that they've ever seen a Pinellas County bus. 16 MR. WEINBERG: It doesn't. But you know, your 17 Honor, the -- the point really is, is that 18 Mr. Dandar was there, representing people to try to 19 get -- people that were anti-Scientologists to try 20 to get put signs put back up -- 21 THE COURT: I don't think there's any question 22 about that Mr. Dandar did not, at that time, and 23 does not now, have much use for the Church of 24 Scientology. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. But yesterday
451 1 when I asked him about Mr. Oliver -- and I can refer 2 to the transcript -- 3 THE COURT: I understand. I'm just simply 4 saying I don't know what the relevance is between 5 signs on a Pinellas County bus trying to influence 6 jurors, when the case was pending in Hillsborough 7 County and all the jurors would be pulled from 8 Hillsborough County. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, really, the point was the 10 activities of Mr. Dandar, and particularly the point 11 today was with regard to Mr. Oliver. Which, you 12 know, the transcript is what it is. But my 13 recollection yesterday is Mr. Dandar expressed some 14 lack of knowledge of who Mr. Oliver was, and yet 15 turns out he was representing him in a very public 16 way. 17 THE WITNESS: No. I don't think I ever said I 18 don't know who he is, but the record will speak for 19 itself. 20 THE COURT: If you're trying to introduce these 21 bus pictures, I'm denying them. Basically saying 22 they have no relevance to this case at the time when 23 it was pending -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 25 THE COURT: -- in Hillsborough County. I mean,
452 1 I realize that Mr. Lirot didn't object. But I've 2 got to tie these -- I just can't have these things 3 stacked to the sky. We just can't have a record 4 that goes on and on and on. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, Judge, I understand that. 6 But you know, there's been a lot of very negative 7 stuff that's been put in the case that I certainly 8 don't think has any relevancy to this hearing. 9 THE COURT: He can't identify them, first of 10 all. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that's -- 12 THE COURT: He said he can't say these are the 13 same signs. 14 Secondly, these signs are Pinellas County buses 15 and the case was pending in Hillsborough County. 16 Thirdly, you asked him the question 17 specifically regarding this as whether or not he 18 wanted these signs on the buses to negatively impact 19 the jury. He said no. 20 At this point these have no relevance to this 21 hearing, and therefore they will not be admitted. 22 Maybe later you can tie them up, but you can't now. 23 MR. WEINBERG: What I'd like to do is mark them 24 as an exhibit and put an exhibit number on them. 25 And you've ruled as far as their admissibility.
453 1 THE COURT: All right. Number 161. 2 Madam Clerk, those are not in evidence, as are 3 several other things that have been marked -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 5 THE COURT: -- by sides. 6 MR. WEINBERG: And then I've just handed up the 7 official meeting notice and minutes of that hearing, 8 and particularly as it relates to page 12, where the 9 tab is, and 13, which reflect the appearance of 10 Mr. Dandar and what he said. 11 THE COURT: I have no problem with that, based 12 on the fact that he was representing this -- this 13 anti-Scientologist -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 15 THE COURT: -- but that the bus pictures have 16 just no relevance -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. 18 THE COURT: -- as you referred to them in your 19 own questioning. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. And we'll mark 21 this -- we'll have this marked as the next number. 22 THE COURT: Number 162. 23 MR. WEINBERG: And I move that into evidence. 24 And I guess you've received it. 25 THE COURT: Right.
454 1 MR. LIROT: No objection. 2 THE COURT: Well, hello. 3 By the way, I don't know where these buses were 4 running. I don't think I ever saw them. Of course 5 all I ever do is just pass by the Williams Park, 6 which is where the buses meet. But I don't recall 7 seeing them. 8 MR. WEINBERG: It was controversial at the 9 time, but I don't recall seeing them either. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Now, again, yesterday, we talked about Jesse 12 Prince and the PC folders -- we actually talked about it 13 again this morning a little bit, in reference to a matter 14 that we talked. And you said he had -- he had done the 15 review for free or for gratis. 16 Now, my question to you is, do you recall that, in 17 Jesse Prince's November 17th, 1999 deposition that I took of 18 Mr. Prince, that he was asked questions about his billings 19 and his billing practices with regard to his activity in the 20 case, from the first involvement, which he said was the PC 21 folders in the fall, until the deposition about a year 22 later? 23 THE COURT: That was an awfully long question. 24 What is your question? Shorter? 25
455 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q The -- 3 THE COURT: About -- 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q The question is do you remember that Mr. Prince 6 was asked about his billing practices? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And do you remember that Mr. Prince said that he 9 prepared bills and billed you for his time? 10 A I don't remember that. 11 Q All right. Can I play -- 12 A If you need to, if that -- 13 Q Very short. 14 A -- has something to do with -- 15 THE COURT: No. You don't need to play 16 anything. Read it. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 18 THE COURT: I mean, you can play it if you want 19 to, but I'd just as soon you read it if you've got a 20 transcript. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I'd rather -- it's really not 22 that long, and I'd rather -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I'll do whatever you want. 25 THE COURT: It's hard for my court reporter to
456 1 take stuff down. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I was going to give her 3 the transcript. 4 THE COURT: Do whatever you want. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I'd like to play it if possible. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 (The videotape was played as follows:) 8 Q Other than prepare the two affidavits, review the 9 PC folders, read the amended complaint, attend a few 10 hearings, testify today, what else have you done in the Lisa 11 McPherson case? 12 A You've kind of basically described what I did. I 13 guess I can only say, in addition to that, I have gone 14 through numerous Scientology policies, orders and 15 directives, to discover which ones are applicable to this 16 case in particular, and interpreted them for Mr. Dandar to 17 see if he wants to use. 18 Q Since the fall of 1998, how many hours would your 19 records indicate that you have spent on the Lisa McPherson 20 case? 21 A Just give me a moment. I'm going to answer that. 22 I'm going to say -- this is just a total rough 23 estimate -- maybe 150 hours. 24 Q Okay. 25 A Maybe less.
457 1 Q That -- is that reasonably -- is that your best 2 estimate, right as you sit here today -- 3 A As I sit here today. 4 Q -- that you've spent on the case? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now, how much of that 150 hours have you billed 7 Mr. Dandar for? 8 A Oh, gosh -- 9 (Unknown speaker on the tape, inaudible.) 10 THE COURT: Was that an objection? 11 (On the videotape:) 12 A I'm sorry. I was distracted. Would you please -- 13 (Tape continues to play in the background.) 14 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think so. 15 THE WITNESS: No. Someone was just announcing, 16 I think, Stacy Brooks was in the room. 17 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I couldn't tell what was 18 going on. 19 (The videotape continues as follows:) 20 Q How many of those hours did you bill Mr. Dandar 21 for? 22 A Probably three quarters -- this is just a 23 guesstimate -- 24 Q Right. Well, does he require precision from you 25 as to what he owes you, or do you just sort of make it up as
458 1 you go along? 2 A You know, we talked about this earlier. And we 3 have a relationship based on trust, because he appreciates 4 the work that I do. I work very diligently to provide the 5 facts as opposed to opinion and things like that. I think 6 he respects my work. 7 Q So the answer to my question is, he doesn't 8 require precision from you as to how much time you spent 9 on -- on the matter? 10 A The answer to your question is, is he trusts me 11 well enough to when I tell him how much time I'm spending on 12 it, that he doesn't question it. 13 (End of videotape.) 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Is that your recollection of the arrangement that 16 you had with -- with Jesse Prince -- 17 A Yes. Yeah. I trusted. 18 Q -- that he would submit -- 19 I'm sorry. 20 A Yeah. 21 Q -- that he would submit bills to you for his time? 22 A No. 23 That didn't refresh my memory at all about that. 24 What did refresh my memory is that I didn't question him 25 when he said he worked on the case and he needed to be paid,
459 1 because I trusted him a hundred percent. 2 THE COURT: How much -- but he was being paid 3 $5,000 a month. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, that's how it came out. 5 That's right. 6 I didn't -- I don't remember seeing a bill, but 7 if you show me something, please, I'll -- 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q Well, you never produced them. And remember there 10 was a hearing in front of Judge Moody where Mr. Prince was 11 called as a witness, and that very thing came up. And we 12 asked him about his billing, and he said he had the records, 13 but he couldn't find them? Do you remember that? 14 A He had a yellow pad where he wrote down everything 15 that he did, which I have never seen. But that's what he 16 said. 17 But I just paid him 5,000 a month. 18 Q Right. So he didn't break out his time for you. 19 A No. He wrote -- he wrote down his activities of 20 what he did. 21 Q Right, but -- 22 A I didn't require him to submit that pad to me to 23 get paid. 24 Q Right. But when we took his deposition, you 25 announced him as -- as -- as --
460 1 THE COURT: If you're trying to do something 2 here to impeach Jesse Prince, it's the wrong time. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I really wasn't trying to do 4 that. 5 THE COURT: Well, it sounds like it. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 7 THE COURT: Because it's very clear he paid him 8 5,000 a month. If you want to talk to Mr. Prince 9 about it -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 11 THE COURT: -- please talk to Mr. Prince about 12 it. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'll go to the next subject. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Now, you told the court on a number of -- you've 16 told the court on a number of occasions during this 17 proceeding, Mr. Dandar, and in questions that you've asked 18 to the witnesses, that Vaughn Young, Stacy Young's -- or 19 Stacy Brooks's ex-husband, was actively involved in the 20 first amended complaint that was filed in early December, 21 1997, correct? 22 A That's right. That's right. 23 Q You said he helped you draft the allegations in 24 that complaint, right? 25 A Concerning Scientology, yes.
461 1 Q And that he sent you drafts of the complaint in 2 the summer of '97? 3 A Well, he sent me drafts of paragraphs of the 4 complaint. 5 Q And then you sent him drafts of the amended 6 complaint before it was filed, correct? 7 A Well, the work product letter that you obtained 8 from Stacy Brooks in May of '97 shows I sent a draft of a 9 amended complaint in May of '97. Other than that, I'm not 10 sure. 11 Q Okay. Now, let me show you -- 12 THE WITNESS: Judge, when something was brought 13 up, may I ask you a question? Do I have to wait 14 till I question someone to find out how they really 15 got that letter? 16 THE COURT: Yes. Well, because you're on the 17 witness stand now, and you can't ask the witness 18 questions, so -- 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 THE COURT: I would think, however, if it's 21 work product, you can continue to object to it. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q The first -- I'm going to show you the first 25 amended complaint. And we're going to go over it, some of
462 1 it. 2 MR. WEINBERG: And your Honor, you have, I 3 think, in your notebook, the first amended 4 complaint. And I'm going to hand Mr. Dandar a 5 notebook, if I can, and pull out -- I think it's -- 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q And what I'm handing you, Ken -- 8 THE COURT: I'm going to use my old notebook of 9 compendium -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Right. The one I'm handing 11 Mr. Dandar is number 2. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q Just look at it and make sure that's the first 15 amended complaint. I think it is. 16 THE COURT: You give me a minute to find the 17 first amended complaint. 18 MR. WEINBERG: It actually should be the 19 second -- there was only the complaint and the first 20 amended complaint. So it should be number 2. 21 THE COURT: I have it. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q Now, are you able to fairly quickly, flipping 24 through this, tell us what paragraphs Mr. Young drafted for 25 you or shaped for you or whatever it was that he was doing?
463 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't think that's 2 appropriate. 3 MR. LIROT: I was going to object to that one, 4 even, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Good. I'm glad to hear somebody 6 piping up. 7 That's sustained. That's work product. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, he -- 9 THE COURT: I sustained it, Counselor. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Can I -- 11 THE COURT: Move on to your next question. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Can I -- 13 THE COURT: No, you may not. It's work 14 product. The objection's been made. It's 15 sustained. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Except that Mr. Dandar 17 testified, when he first appeared in this 18 proceeding, that Vaughn Young helped him draft the 19 complaint -- 20 THE COURT: Counselor, if you didn't object to 21 it, he didn't object to it, I don't care. It's 22 objected to now. It's work product. He does not 23 have to tell you what his consultant did in this 24 case. 25 MR. WEINBERG: But this consultant is a trial
464 1 expert that he designated as a trial expert, that 2 we've already taken his trial -- 3 THE COURT: Counselor, do you know the way to 4 Lakeland? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 6 THE COURT: Well, then, go there. I've made my 7 ruling. You know, you just can't have everything 8 your way. And we do the best we can. And we make 9 rulings. And sometimes we're right and sometimes 10 we're wrong. And when we're wrong, take it 11 someplace else and have them tell us. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 13 THE COURT: I don't want to hear any more about 14 it. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Paragraph 38, on page 15. 18 A I'm looking at it. 19 Q In that paragraph, this is the first time the word 20 "murder" appears. And you say that, "The introspection 21 rundown, even according to L. Ron Hubbard, must be followed 22 strictly, and by Scientology-trained personnel, as defined 23 by Scientology. Otherwise, it can be extremely dangerous, 24 and to those who wish to abuse the introspection rundown, 25 according to L. Ron Hubbard, can be used to murder that
465 1 person or cause a person to go completely and utterly insane 2 or to commit suicide." 3 Now, in that complaint, where you said that the 4 introspection rundown can be used to murder that person 5 according to L. Ron Hubbard, can you tell us what proof, 6 evidence you had anywhere in December of 1997, when you -- 7 when that appeared in your complaint, that the introspection 8 rundown, according to L. Ron Hubbard, can be used to murder? 9 THE WITNESS: Is that not work product? 10 THE COURT: I would think so. 11 THE WITNESS: And I also -- I believe we 12 answered umpteen interrogatory answers when you 13 asked for facts to support that. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Can you just answer that question? 16 A Well, I think the court just said it's work 17 product. 18 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll make the objection, 19 Judge. Work product. 20 THE COURT: I mean, this is a first amended 21 complaint. We're dealing in this trial with the 22 fifth amended complaint. Your motion for summary 23 judgment needs to go to the fifth amended complaint. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it does, your Honor. 25 But -- but this is -- he made such a big point when
466 1 he was on the stand and cross examining Ms. Brooks 2 and Mr. Minton. And Mr. Minton had absolutely 3 nothing to do with the first amended complaint or 4 any of the other complaints in this case. It was 5 Vaughn Young and -- and -- and you know, and -- and 6 these allegations of murder appear for the first 7 time in December of '97. 8 And the question is simple: What's your 9 evidence that the introspection rundown in December 10 of 1997 could be used to murder? 11 THE COURT: And he's objected, and I've 12 sustained the objection. This is the first amended 13 complaint. Has nothing to do with the motion for 14 summary judgment. 15 MR. WEINBERG: It has to do with the misconduct 16 in this case. This proceeding -- 17 THE COURT: What, the lies? This is -- this 18 is -- this is a perjury for Mr. Minton or 19 Ms. Brooks? This is a -- has something to do with 20 the agreement between him or Mr. -- he and -- I'm 21 sorry -- Mr. Minton and the estate? Or this has 22 something to do with the money or the loan to 23 Mr. Dandar? Those are the three areas. 24 MR. WEINBERG: That -- those are three general 25 areas. But it has to do with -- with misconduct or
467 1 abuse in this case. And if allegations -- 2 I mean, look, the Church of Scientology has 3 spent -- 4 THE COURT: Don't tell me to look. Don't -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 6 THE COURT: Don't ever refer to me in that -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: I obviously didn't mean to -- 8 THE COURT: You do it again -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: I -- 10 THE COURT: -- I will be absolutely furious 11 with you. I won't put up with it. I won't tolerate 12 it. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: The -- the church has spent an 16 awful lot of money fighting allegations from the -- 17 virtually -- from December of 1997, right after 18 Mr. Minton got involved in this case, until today, 19 allegations of murder and misconduct and all of 20 that. And the position that -- that we're taking -- 21 have taken all along is that there never was any 22 evidence of things like, "The introspection rundown 23 can be used, according to L. Ron Hubbard, for 24 murder," or the end of cycle -- 25 THE COURT: I'm interested in the end of cycle.
468 1 I think that has some bearing on this case. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but this is -- this is 3 where it first appears, in -- in -- 4 THE COURT: I don't see "end of cycle" in 5 there, Counsel. 6 MR. WEINBERG: No, but it says -- your Honor -- 7 but it says, "The introspection rundown, according 8 to L. Ron Hubbard," can be used to murder that 9 person. That's what it says. 10 THE COURT: We're not on that complaint. We're 11 on the fifth amended complaint. I'd be interested 12 in knowing what he has to prove the fifth amended 13 complaint, not the first one. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let's go back to Mr. Young 15 again, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Or the second one or the third one 17 or the fourth one. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q Vaughn Young -- 20 THE COURT: And that may all have something to 21 do and some bearing, if you get to trial, on your 22 counterclaim. That may be relevant. And if that's 23 relevant, then it's not fair to put him on the stand 24 and have him help prove your case here in court. So 25 that's -- you're not going to get into --
469 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 2 THE COURT: You can get into the agreement, you 3 can get into the money, you can get into all these 4 things. You cannot ask him for his work product on 5 a complaint that doesn't exist and a counterclaim 6 that doesn't exist against that complaint. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I -- but -- but your Honor -- 8 THE COURT: I understand you have a difference 9 of opinion with me. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, yeah. 11 THE COURT: But I get to make the call. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I -- 13 THE COURT: It's real simple. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And I understand that. But we 15 do have a difference -- I do have a difference of 16 opinion as to when it's work product. This is a 17 civil case and each side is entitled to know the 18 evidence on which the allegations are based. 19 THE COURT: And I understand that. And you get 20 to do that through all kinds of different ways. 21 We're in a long proceeding here, that's taking 22 up an awful lot of my time. I'm on day 17. This is 23 not the way, and I don't have to preside over that. 24 You may do that through some other fashion. You may 25 not do that in this hearing, which is to dismiss the
470 1 fifth amended complaint -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 3 THE COURT: -- and to remove Mr. Dandar from -- 4 the lawyer, from the fifth amended complaint. I 5 don't care about the first amended complaint. 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q You attended Vaughn Young's deposition that I took 8 in December of 1999, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And this was after you had announced to the court 11 that he was going to be one of your testifying expert 12 witnesses, right? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you told the court that he was very ill and it 15 was necessary that you preserve his testimony for trial, 16 even though a trial wasn't scheduled at that point, right? 17 A That's true. And it's still true today. 18 Q And -- 19 A He's still very ill. 20 Q And the way it worked is, first, Judge Moody 21 allowed me to take his deposition for discovery, and then, a 22 few weeks later, you were allowed to take his deposition for 23 trial purposes, correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And you remember in the deposition that I took of
471 1 Mr. Young, that I asked him about the work that he had done 2 on the case, including his participation if any with regard 3 to drafting parts of the amended complaint, participating 4 with regard to discussing the addition of David Miscavige or 5 anything like that, right? 6 A I assume that. I -- you say it, I assume you're 7 correct. 8 Q Okay. I'm going to -- 9 A I don't know. 10 Q -- play now -- 11 I'm sorry to interrupt you. 12 I'm going to play now what Mr. Young said, and 13 then I'm going to ask you how you can square what Mr. Young 14 said, when you were there as -- as your trial expert, at -- 15 against what you have testified under oath in this 16 proceeding. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think that's 18 appropriate either. 19 THE COURT: I don't either, but I'm not -- I 20 told you you can't do the objecting. You're the 21 witness. 22 (The videotape was played as follows:) 23 Q Well, what -- tell me about the -- the next 24 conversation that you remember you had with Mr. Dandar. 25 A Well, he first -- he came -- he flew up to see us
472 1 and met with us. 2 Q He flew to Seattle. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Was anybody with him? 5 A No. 6 Q Did he send anything before he came? 7 A No. 8 Q Did he send you a copy of the complaint? 9 A No. 10 Q Did he send you a copy of any proposed amendments 11 to the complaint? 12 A No. 13 Q Excuse me? 14 A No. 15 Q Did he send you any records that -- from the case? 16 A No. 17 Q Did he give you any discovery from the case? 18 A No. 19 Q When he came to Seattle, did he show you a copy of 20 the complaint? 21 A No. 22 Q Did he review with you any documents from the 23 case? 24 A No. 25 Q Did he review with you any proposed amendments to
473 1 the complaint? 2 A No. 3 Q Did Mr. Dandar -- in his telephone conversation 4 that you had prior to going to Seattle, did he speak with 5 you about the prospects of adding David Miscavige as a party 6 defendant to the case? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you receive any communication from Mr. Dandar, 9 before his visit to Seattle, with regard to potentially 10 adding David Miscavige as a party defendant to the case? 11 A No. 12 Q As far as you know, did Stacy have any such 13 communication or correspondence from Mr. Dandar with regard 14 to adding David Miscavige to the -- to the case as a party 15 defendant? 16 A As far as I know, no. 17 (Videotape playing in background.) 18 THE COURT: Of course we know that's 19 inaccurate. 20 (Videotape:) 21 Q Do you remember receiving -- 22 (Live court:) 23 THE COURT: I'm tired of hearing this. Turn it 24 off. 25 This is ludicrous. This is putting in
474 1 deposition testimony into this hearing from a 2 witness who's not here, who may be here later. 3 Ask him questions, and you may impeach him from 4 something he said. You can't just keep playing 5 these depositions. 6 MR. WEINBERG: This does impeach him, first of 7 all. 8 And secondly, this is his witness, his expert. 9 Our position is that throughout this case, 10 Mr. Dandar has elicited false testimony from a 11 variety of people. And in this case, this is his 12 expert witness. And what you're going to hear on 13 this tape is that -- is that Vaughn Young says 14 exactly diametrically opposed to what Mr. Dandar 15 swore under oath here. He said, "I had nothing to 16 do with an amended complaint. I didn't -- I didn't 17 do any --" 18 THE COURT: Then bring Mr. Young here. If you 19 think for one minute that I'm going to take the 20 deposition testimony -- some little blip that you 21 pulled out of the deposition testimony and introduce 22 it somehow into this record as impeachment of him, 23 ain't gonna happen. 24 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor. It -- it is 25 twofold.
475 1 Number one, we -- we have said that in this 2 case Mr. Dandar participated in the elicitation -- 3 in the -- in the -- in eliciting false testimony 4 from a variety of people, not just Mr. Minton. This 5 is his trial expert. That's number one. 6 THE COURT: What are you saying, he elicited 7 false information from him? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I am. 9 THE COURT: Oh, all right. 10 THE WITNESS: Not in any motion. 11 THE COURT: No. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 13 THE COURT: I guess that's something for 14 another day. 15 MR. WEINBERG: You know, Judge -- I mean, this 16 is -- this is a proceeding where we -- where we sat 17 and listened to a lot of cross examination of 18 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, and now we have 19 Mr. Dandar. We have suggested -- and you've said 20 that we have -- we have a very heavy burden. You 21 have suggested -- I mean, we have suggested that 22 Mr. Dandar should be disqualified for his misconduct 23 in this case. 24 And part of his misconduct, I would say in his 25 case -- and when you see this. And we can give you
476 1 the entire deposition. 2 But when you see what Mr. Young said, with 3 Mr. Dandar sitting there and Ms. Brooks sitting 4 there, and no corrections from Mr. Dandar, it is 5 completely the opposite -- the opposite -- what 6 Mr. Dandar has said under oath. 7 And so they both can't be right. Somebody is 8 lying, and somebody is -- is -- is possibly telling 9 the truth. But they're both not -- they're 10 diametrically opposed. 11 And -- and for Mr. Dandar to -- to -- 12 THE COURT: And that might mean that Mr. Dandar 13 is doing something wrong in this hearing. That 14 would have nothing to do as to whether there's an 15 agreement between these parties; it would have 16 nothing to do with whether or not Mr. Dandar 17 suborned perjury; it would have nothing to do with 18 whether or not there is a loan to him or a loan to 19 the estate and whether there's anything wrong with 20 that; and it would have nothing to do with whether 21 or not David Miscavige, who wasn't added till the 22 fifth amended complaint, was done by some 23 inappropriate means. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Our -- 25 THE COURT: I mean, it's your motion. I'm
477 1 trying to deal with the motion that you filed. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I understand. 3 But we also -- I mean, we also, I believe, 4 are -- are allowed to impeach Mr. Dandar's 5 credibility. He's gone to great lengths to impeach 6 the credibility of Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, and 7 I'm sure anybody else that we call as witnesses in 8 this case. And if we call Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen 9 and Ms. Yingling, he will be allowed to try to 10 impeach their credibility. 11 In this case, on the first day of the 12 proceeding, he took the stand, and in that first 13 hour, he said, among other things, Minton -- 14 Mr. Minton didn't have anything to do with the first 15 amended complaint. He said it. He brought it up. 16 It was Vaughn Young. Vaughn Young did all this and 17 Vaughn Young did all that. 18 THE COURT: You didn't object. I can't help 19 it. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, I don't think 21 I have to object when Mr. Dandar is saying 22 completely opposite from what Mr. Young said. 23 What I was planning on doing, which I am doing, 24 is impeaching him. And I think I'm allowed to do 25 that. I mean, it -- it is -- his credibility is --
478 1 is -- is at issue in this case. And we say that he 2 has, A, committed misconduct in the case, but B, I 3 say he's testified falsely in the case. And I'm 4 showing -- 5 THE COURT: He's not supposed to be a witness 6 in this case. He's a lawyer in this case. You're 7 trying to disqualify him as the lawyer, not as an 8 impeachable witness -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: But he's the one -- 10 THE COURT: -- in this case. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Remember -- 12 I'm sorry, your Honor. 13 He's the one -- 14 THE COURT: No, you're not. You're just 15 continuing to go on and on, and apparently want to 16 have your way. And it isn't going to happen. I 17 have said this is inappropriate at this time and for 18 this hearing. It isn't going to happen. 19 MR. WEINBERG: He took -- 20 THE COURT: You're not going to play it 21 anymore. It's done. Move on. 22 I mean, I heard Mr. Dandar say Mr. Young's 23 going to be a witness. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: So if you want to get down -- let's
479 1 see what Mr. Young says. And if Mr. Young says 2 something different from what he said in his 3 deposition, you may impeach Mr. Young from it. You 4 cannot impeach Mr. Dandar from Mr. Young's 5 deposition. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I guess that's where -- 7 THE COURT: Well, take it up. Go somewhere 8 else with it. I've made a ruling and it's time to 9 move on. Just real simple. 10 THE WITNESS: Judge, let me tell you about 11 Mr. Young. He does have a lot -- 12 THE COURT: I mean, if he can't come -- if 13 Mr. Young -- I mean, I'm assuming Mr. Young is 14 coming. I've been told Mr. Young is coming. He is 15 going to be a witness. I'm not going to hear 16 Mr. Young's deposition now, then hear from 17 Mr. Young, then have some more of his deposition. 18 If Mr. Young doesn't come as a witness and you 19 want to put his deposition in because he's an 20 unavailable witness, you may put his deposition in 21 at this time. Right now what I have simply ruled, 22 you cannot impeach him by playing a deposition in 23 this courtroom of some other witness. It ain't 24 gonna happen. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, a second.
480 1 THE WITNESS: I am -- 2 THE COURT: There's nothing more to say. Move 3 on. I get to make rulings. I've made one. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q Mr. Dandar, is Mr. Young coming? 6 A The best of my ability, he is coming. He does 7 have cancer. It has progressed tremendously since this 8 deposition. He's still alive, and he did tell me that he is 9 coming. As soon as I figure out when. Based upon -- 10 THE COURT: Is he the one you wanted to be able 11 to come at some special time or is that somebody 12 else? 13 THE WITNESS: No. That's someone else. Peter 14 Alexander I'm trying to get this week, because he's 15 gone next week. 16 THE COURT: Well, we'll see if he comes. If he 17 comes and you want to play his deposition, then, as 18 a separate witness, to show impeachment or to show 19 some contrary testimony to this witness, you may do 20 that. You may not impeach this witness from the 21 deposition testimony of another witness. 22 And don't try it in the trial either. If we 23 get to trial. You can't do it. You can't do it. 24 THE WITNESS: Judge, if you want just a point 25 of reference, that paragraph 38 in the first amended
481 1 complaint, that language, the entire paragraph, is 2 not in the fifth amended complaint. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q All right. This is a letter that you spoke of a 5 few minutes ago, the letter -- 6 A This is one I object to on work product. That's 7 right. 8 Q The letter to Mr. Young. All right. 9 THE COURT: Well, it's already in the record, 10 is it not? 11 THE WITNESS: You admitted it, Judge, I 12 objected. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q It's Defendant's Exhibit 73. 15 And what I'm going to do is show you a series of 16 documents about how this -- about -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: And this has to do with 18 Mr. Dandar, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q -- series of documents where -- where we 22 requested -- 23 Oh, let me just ask you specific questions. 24 You understand that when an expert witness is 25 designated as a trial testifying expert, that each side is
482 1 required to produce communications between that testifying 2 expert and counsel. And we've done that through the case, 3 whether it's Dr. Spitz or -- or Dr. Baden or Dr. Wecht or 4 Dr. Coe. We've produced all the communications between 5 counsel and the witness prior to the deposition or at the 6 deposition, correct? 7 A You -- 8 Q Yes? 9 A You say so. I mean, I don't know -- 10 Q Well, you don't disagree with that statement, do 11 you? 12 A I don't know if you produced all of it. I know 13 you don't have to produce work product, mental impressions. 14 You produce facts that the expert is relying upon, but not 15 everything, though. 16 Q Well, we have -- you produced, for example, in 17 Dr. Bandt and Dr. Coe's deposition, various documents that 18 they prepared just for you with regard to issues in the 19 case, and we did the same -- 20 A Yeah. 21 Q -- as far as Dr. Wecht and Baden. 22 A I'm sorry. That's different than this letter of 23 May 2nd. 24 Q How is that different? 25 A Well, this is my letter. This isn't prepared by
483 1 the expert. 2 Q All right. Well, let me show you -- let's go 3 through these. 4 A I'd still like to know how you got it. 5 Q Let me go through these. 6 Okay. Now, you recall that the first deposition 7 of Mr. Young was taken by me on December 21st and 22nd, and 8 the trial deposition was taken by you on January 20th and 9 21st of the next year, which was 2000, correct? 10 A I assume you're right, yes. 11 Q Okay. And do you remember that prior to that 12 deposition, Mr. Young or you, in behalf of Mr. -- Mr. Young, 13 but on you, were served as a subpoena duces tecum for -- for 14 various documents. Do you remember that? 15 A No. But I'm sure that's right. 16 Q And do you remember that there was an emergency 17 motion with regard to that concerning the production of all 18 those records, including communications and agreements 19 between you and Mr. Young and/or Ms. Young. Do you -- do 20 you remember that? 21 A I'm sure that's right. I don't remember it, but 22 I'm sure you're right. 23 Q And do you remember that as a result of the 24 subpoena and that emergency motion, you faxed to me 25 responses to expert interrogatories -- this is the day
484 1 before the deposition of -- your trial deposition of 2 Mr. Young -- and all the communications that you supposedly 3 had with Mr. Young. Do you remember that? 4 A No. But I assume you're correct. 5 Q And do you remember that at the deposition on 6 January 20th and 21st, we actually talked about, on the 7 record, you and me, about this fax, and your response to the 8 subpoena. Do you remember that? 9 A I assume you're correct. 10 Q All right. 11 A That's all I can say. 12 Q Let me -- 13 A I don't doubt you. 14 Q Okay. Well, what I'm going to do is hand you up a 15 series of documents. And we're going to go through them. 16 And my question is going to be, in light of all that, why 17 didn't you produce the May, 1997 letter, first letter, 18 between you and the Youngs? 19 A I'm not sure this is the first letter. I can't 20 say that under oath. 21 Q Well -- 22 A And number two, I can't say -- although this is a 23 letter from my office, for sure, that's work product, I'd 24 have to see your request, and then I would have to actually 25 go back to my office and see if a copy of this letter is in
485 1 my file. 2 Q All right. Well, we're going to go over it. 3 A I -- 4 THE WITNESS: I still would request the court 5 to make them tell us right now on the record how 6 they got this letter, since Ms. Brooks kind of 7 wavered on it. But I'll -- I guess I'll have to 8 call Mr. Moxon to the stand then. 9 THE COURT: Well, I think what Ms. Brooks said 10 is that she -- they had the letter. I already told 11 you that it appears to me -- she says she didn't 12 give it to them, my recollection. 13 THE WITNESS: She said at first she did. In 14 fact, she said she flew to Atlanta to get it. 15 THE COURT: The testimony will speak for 16 itself. 17 My -- my thought was that she was implying that 18 they had gotten it in some illegal or inappropriate 19 fashion. That's what I thought she was implying. 20 THE WITNESS: That was the second thing she 21 said. That's right. 22 THE COURT: Well -- 23 THE WITNESS: You started to question her how 24 could she possibly give over a work product letter 25 to the opposing side, and then she backed off and
486 1 she said that they already had it and -- 2 THE COURT: Now, what does this have to do 3 with? Is this like a motion for sanctions or what? 4 You think I'm going to terminate the case because he 5 didn't send you something? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor -- 7 THE COURT: I mean, for goodness sakes, 8 there've been a jillion, skillion motions to compel 9 or discovery of all kinds of things by either side. 10 Are we going to go through a whole host of things 11 and then determine whether or not he should have 12 sent you this or not, in a motion to terminate; 13 sanctions? 14 MR. WEINBERG: There's a few things -- 15 And yes, this is an important thing. 16 When -- when you see what the record is -- this 17 is the last thing -- and what Mr. Dandar has said, 18 what he said at the time and what he said on the 19 record, yes. 20 THE COURT: All right. Well, I do see 21 something in here about Mr. Miscavige, so that does 22 have some bearing on the fifth amended complaint, so 23 I'll have to read this. It's been a while since 24 I've seen it. 25 THE WITNESS: Of course, the fifth amended
487 1 complaint wasn't filed then, but -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, where are you reading? 4 THE COURT: I'm reading some letter that came 5 from Mr. Dandar, that the -- that he didn't provide 6 to the Church of Scientology. I don't believe 7 Ms. Brooks said she did -- that the Church of 8 Scientology has and is using regularly. 9 MR. LIROT: And the date on the letter, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: May 2nd, 1997. 12 MR. LIROT: Okay. Thank you. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, should we not then ask it 14 to be removed from the file, since it's 15 inappropriately obtained by the Church of 16 Scientology? 17 THE COURT: I don't know if it's 18 inappropriately obtained or not. 19 THE WITNESS: Oh. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q Okay. Now, just quickly through here, the first 22 document -- 23 THE COURT: I mean, I don't even know. Did you 24 object when the letter was -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
488 1 THE COURT: -- introduced? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q Mr. Dandar -- 5 THE COURT: Then it's in the record. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: If you objected and I let it in the 8 record, then it's in and it'll stay in. 9 THE WITNESS: All right. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q The first document is a subpoena duces tecum 12 asking for all documents, communications with regard to any 13 letters, facsimiles, Internet postings, written agreements 14 and e-mails. Do you see that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And that is dated January 20th, 2000. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Right before the deposition of Mr. -- your trial 19 deposition of Mr. Young, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And -- 22 A So you -- 23 Q -- the next time -- 24 A You didn't ask for this before his discovery 25 deposition?
489 1 Q Could I just -- 2 A I'm sorry. 3 Q -- go on? 4 A I'm sorry. I just need to get a reference point. 5 Q The second document is a defendant Kartuzinski 6 emergency request for expedited production of documents, 7 that was filed on January 19th with regard to, among other 8 things, communications and/or agreements with -- with the 9 Youngs -- do you see that -- including letters, facsimiles 10 et cetera. 11 A Yes. 12 Q You see that? 13 And the next document is a fax from you to me 14 which has your responses to Mr. Young's expert 15 interrogatories. This is dated the day before the 16 deposition on January 19th, 2000, is that right? 17 A I -- I missed that one. Which one's that? 18 Q The next document. That's your fax here. 19 A My fax -- I think you gave me two of the 20 Kartuzinski's emergency -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- requests. 23 Q I didn't give you the fax? 24 A And I have the fax. 25 Answers to interrogatories --
490 1 Q And you attached -- 2 A Letters. 3 Q -- letters. 4 And the letters start, if you go in the back -- 5 the first letter is June 30th, 1997; August 1, '97; 6 August 13, '97; August 20, '97; September 8th, '97; 7 October 2nd, '97; October 30, '97; November 7, '97; 8 December 10th, '97. 9 And in that letter you say, "Church of Scientology 10 just released the attached notes. You can see that Lisa was 11 in isolation, baby watch, apparently in June, July and 12 August of '95 and then in ethics. Her chiropractor put her 13 in treason for going to another doctor without telling her 14 first. That doctor is --" 15 (The reporter asked counsel to repeat.) 16 THE COURT: I have no idea what he's saying. 17 You're going so fast and rattling so fast that 18 absolutely -- my court reporter can't take it down. 19 I have no idea what you're taking about. If you 20 could slow down a little, it would be helpful to all 21 of us. 22 THE WITNESS: I apologize. That was OT8. 23 MR. LIROT: What are you referring to? 24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm referring to the exhibits. 25 (A discussion was held off the record.)
491 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q "You can see that Lisa was in isolation, i.e., 3 baby watch, apparently, in June, July, and August, 1995 and 4 then in ethics. Her chiropractor put her in treason for 5 going to another doctor without telling her first. That 6 doctor is OT8. Attached also is some items of interest 7 which I gleaned from these notes." 8 Well, wouldn't you consider that work product? 9 A No. These are documents you produced. 10 Q Then there's a January 5th, 1998 letter, an April 11 3rd, 1998 letter, in which you asked him for advice as to 12 his thoughts. And that was turned over to us, right? 13 A Sure. 14 Q Before the depo. 15 A There's nothing work product about any of these 16 letters. 17 Q Okay. And then we go to the depo. Which is -- 18 THE COURT: I don't think I even see what -- 19 whatever it was you were reading from that included 20 notes. 21 THE WITNESS: December 10th. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I was reading in reverse order, 23 but it was the December 10th letter right here. It 24 would be toward the beginning. He put them in 25 reverse order so the --
492 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: And that's OT8 at the end of the 3 paragraph. 4 THE COURT: The doctor is OT8. 5 MR. WEINBERG: OT8. 6 THE COURT: That must be some -- 7 THE WITNESS: That's as high as you can go. 8 THE COURT: As a doctor. 9 THE WITNESS: No. As a Scientologist. 10 MR. WEINBERG: It's on the bridge. It's a -- 11 it's a -- it's an advancement. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q And then let me refer you to Mr. Young's 14 deposition. 15 THE COURT: The OT8 has nothing to do with the 16 doctor, then, I guess. That's just a person who 17 is -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 19 THE COURT: It could be a doctor, it could be 20 somebody else. This person just happens to be a 21 doctor. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Dr. Minkoff happens to be a 23 Scientologist who has achieved OT8. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 A Well, this is a chiropractor, this is someone
493 1 else. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Okay. Whoever you were talking about. 4 A Jeanne Decuypere. 5 Q Let me refer you to the transcript of the Vaughn 6 Young deposition, page 669. And this section I'm going to 7 go over with you is where we discussed what we just went 8 over here. 9 And on page 669 -- and I'll read slowly. 10 "Okay. And then we got a fax with 13 pages, 11 including the cover page, that was a one-page response to 12 interrogatories that was handwritten out. And is that -- 13 this is the response to the expert interrogatories. That's 14 what it is. 15 "Mr. Dandar: That -- that's correct, signed by 16 me, notarized. 17 "Mr. Weinberg: Okay. I guess it came in this 18 afternoon, right around 3. 19 "Mr. Dandar: Okay. 20 "Mr. Weinberg: And then there are 11 letters. 21 "Mr. Dandar: Right. 22 "That go from June 30th, 1997 until April 3rd, 23 1998, which purports to be correspondence between you and 24 your office and the Youngs, is that correct? 25 "Mr. Dandar: I think they're mostly Vaughn Young,
494 1 but they speak for themselves. Those are all the documents 2 in the world that exist between my office and Robert Vaughn 3 Young. And if you want to throw Stacy Brooks into this, the 4 former Stacy Young, that would include her too. Because I 5 don't think that unless something says it's addressed to 6 her, there wouldn't be anything to her. 7 "Mr. Weinberg: My question to you is, was there 8 any correspondence between May of '97 between your office 9 and either of the Youngs or both of the Youngs? 10 "Mr. Dandar: If it's not in front of you, it 11 doesn't exist, never was. 12 "Mr. Weinberg: So you're not withholding 13 anything. 14 "Mr. Dandar: Oh, no, no. 15 "Mr. Weinberg: If somebody did a search of your 16 records -- 17 "Mr. Dandar: Yeah. We have a file called Robert 18 Vaughn Young. That's where everything is kept. 19 "Mr. Weinberg: Because my recollection is, that 20 the testimony indicated that the communications were earlier 21 than June 30th, 1997." 22 That's the date of the first letter you gave us. 23 "And that there was some communication in May. 24 And so my question is, are you sure? 25 "Mr. Dandar: Well, here's one on June 30th.
495 1 Let's just say to the best of my ability at this moment in 2 time, this is it." 3 Now, if you turn to -- 4 Wait a minute -- okay. If you turn to 674, line 5 7. 6 Me: "I'm handing you a subpoena which calls for 7 the production of documents, including the ones that we 8 just -- 9 "Mr. Dandar: Is this something new? 10 "Mr. Weinberg: Yeah. It's something new, since 11 this is an emergency and we've got to go forward. And if I 12 give you, Ken, a subpoena for Stacy Young, will you accept 13 it? 14 "Mr. Dandar: Sure. Go ahead. Just expedite 15 everything." 16 And then on 675, Mr. Weinberg, line 9: 17 "Ken, again, it's been a while since I looked at 18 Mr. Young's testimony, but I just want to make sure, is it 19 your representation that there is no -- that you never -- 20 that there is no correspondence where you sent Mr. Young or 21 Ms. Young -- in 1997 time period I'm talking about -- copies 22 of a proposed complaint in order to -- I mean, a proposed 23 amended complaint to add parties? 24 "Mr. Dandar: If it's not here -- 25 "Mr. Weinberg. But I'm asking you. And I see
496 1 that it's not there. 2 "Mr. Dandar: Well, then, I didn't do it. I mean, 3 I'm -- I'm sure not testifying today, but I would respond to 4 you that if it's not here, no, we didn't do that." 5 Mr. Weinberg, on 676: "And is it your testimony, 6 Mr. Young, that you never got a proposed amended 7 complaint --" 8 THE COURT: I don't want to hear from 9 Mr. Young. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, this is Mr. -- 11 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's -- 12 "Mr. Dandar --" then there's an exchange. And 13 I just didn't want to leave that out. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: "Mr. Dandar: And also --" this 16 is on line 6. "And also, you know, make sure we're 17 clear. That was a totally different question. 18 "You just asked him if I sent him a proposed 19 complaint in the '97 time frame. 20 "Mr. Dandar: To add Miscavige? 21 "Mr. Weinberg: Right. 22 "Mr. Dandar: Right. No. But that was a 23 different question than you asked. 24 "Well, I'll ask you the same question." 25 All right. Well, that just sort of --
497 1 A Well -- 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q And these are questions -- so the rest is 4 Mr. Young. 5 A Do you have a question? 6 Q My question to you is, when you indicated to me at 7 the deposition that you weren't asserting any privilege, you 8 weren't withholding any documents at that time on work 9 product or anything else, so why didn't you produce the 10 May 2nd, '97 letter, which is apparently the first 11 communication you ever had with Mr. Young? 12 A I don't know. I mean, I'm assuming -- I'm pretty 13 darn sure the May 2nd, '97 letter, which you obtained 14 somehow, is from me to Stacy and Vaughn Young. I said we 15 went and looked in the Vaughn Young file, and we've produced 16 everything that was in the file. 17 Had I known you were going to question me about 18 this today, had you told me yesterday, I would have went 19 back to my office to see where this May 2nd, '97 letter is, 20 if I do have it. Things do disappear from my office from 21 time to time. 22 But this amended complaint that you asked 23 Mr. Young about on 676 -- you asked him if he had a 24 complaint that had Miscavige on as a party. And Miscavige 25 was not on as a party in the first amended complaint.
498 1 Q But you intended -- I mean, remember, we entered 2 in this agreement. You told us you were going to add him as 3 a party in 1997. And that was -- that resulted in the 4 agreement which is the subject of the breach of contract 5 which was entered literally on the day, or signed on the day 6 that the first amended complaint was filed. Otherwise you 7 would have added him as a party, correct, in '97. 8 A That was my intention. But there's no complaint 9 that was sent, as far as I know, to Mr. Young or Stacy Young 10 in '97, that showed David Miscavige as a defendant. 11 Now, granted, if you can show me something from me 12 that refreshes my memory to the contrary, I'll look at it, 13 but I'm looking at the May 2nd, '97 letter; I'm looking at 14 this deposition, page 676, of Mr. Young. 15 And I think he answered your question, if I'm 16 not -- did he? 17 Q Well, I -- I wouldn't -- 18 THE COURT: I'm not interested in Mr. Young. 19 I'm interested in what you did or didn't do. 20 THE WITNESS: Right. Okay. 21 THE COURT: You seem to suggest that this 22 letter, May -- if I understood that -- although he 23 was going too fast, but he finally slowed down -- 24 that this letter was not included as one of the 25 letters that you were suggesting existed in this
499 1 case. 2 THE WITNESS: That's right. I'm looking at his 3 fax -- my fax to him. It's not there. I'm looking 4 at the Young deposition, page 669, where I say that 5 I went and looked and I've given him everything 6 that's in the file. And I also said that, "At this 7 time, that's the best I can do," on page 670, 671. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q But you also said -- just so it's clear, because 10 you've accused us of having your work product -- as of 11 January the 20th or 21st, 2000 when Mr. Young's deposition 12 was going forward, you weren't asserting a work product 13 objection to withhold any documents between you -- 14 communications between you and Mr. Young, correct? That's 15 what you said in that record -- 16 A Well -- 17 Q -- that we just went through. 18 A -- yeah. Just in the record we went through, 19 that's correct. 20 Q All right. So -- 21 THE COURT: Of course, this wasn't part of -- 22 I think what he's trying to say and what you're 23 trying to say, he's saying he's not including this. 24 So either he had it and didn't disclose it to you or 25 it wasn't in his file when he went to get it and
500 1 therefore he didn't even remember he had it. It's 2 one of the two. 3 MR. WEINBERG: All right. That may be. 4 Except -- 5 THE WITNESS: That's -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: -- it's the first communication 7 that he had with the Youngs. It has Mr. Miscavige's 8 name in it. That was a big issue in -- right 9 after -- right at this time, in early January of 10 2000, late 1999. 11 Because in the fall, your Honor, of 1999 -- 12 THE COURT: Well, this is in 2000, right? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. It's January, 2000. 14 And -- 15 THE COURT: And presumably this fax or 16 whatever -- 17 When was that? 18 MR. WEINBERG: January of 2000. 19 THE COURT: Okay. So I mean -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I -- 21 THE COURT: -- there really isn't any big deal 22 here. Either Ken wasn't giving you the straight 23 story and he had this and he was lying about it or 24 you stole it from his office, and he didn't have it. 25 It's just one or the other.
501 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we didn't steal it from 2 his office. 3 THE COURT: Well, somebody stole it from his 4 office. 5 MR. WEINBERG: All right. We didn't steal it 6 from his office. And -- 7 THE COURT: I'm -- I'm sorry. I certainly 8 didn't mean you. Don't misunderstand that. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, the -- 10 THE COURT: I hope you know I -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: I know you're not accusing me of 12 that, but -- 13 THE WITNESS: Well, there's a third option. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Could I -- 15 THE WITNESS: The third option -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Could I -- 17 THE WITNESS: -- is I lost it. 18 MR. WEINBERG: -- address -- your Honor -- 19 THE COURT: Well, it has to be one or the 20 other. He's lying about it and he didn't give it to 21 you, and that's why it's not in here, and he 22 intentionally kept it and didn't disclose it to you 23 all, when he should have. Or he should have said, 24 "There is something else I'm not giving to you. I'm 25 going to do a privilege log because it's -- it's
502 1 work product," or whatever he thought it was. "So 2 yeah, I have more, but I'm not giving it to you." 3 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 4 THE COURT: So that -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: That's his obligation. 6 THE COURT: That's his obligation. 7 MR. WEINBERG: And -- 8 THE COURT: So either he lied to you, he knew 9 he had this and he did not give it to you and he's 10 intentionally lying, or when he went to do this and 11 looked in his file, he didn't have this. Which 12 means that it was either A, lost, or B, taken by 13 someone, or C, shredded or somehow or other it was 14 missing. Those are the only explanations. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. And I don't 16 believe he was -- I believe that he was not telling 17 the truth intentionally. You know what -- 18 A And the reason is, your Honor, in the fall of 19 1999, regard to the fifth amended complaint, first time 20 around he wasn't able to add Mr. Miscavige because of the 21 contract. The second time around, which was argued on 22 December 14th, 1999, in front of Judge Moody, Mr. Dandar 23 used -- 24 THE COURT: What was that meeting, December of 25 '99 -- the second time around it was argued in front
503 1 of Judge Moody. This is backing up from this 2000 2 thing. 3 MR. WEINBERG: It is. But I want to explain -- 4 THE COURT: What was being argued? To add 5 Mr. Miscavige? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Under the Sea Org theory. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. WEINBERG: And that's -- and what emanated 9 from that was the fifth amended complaint that was 10 actually filed -- 11 THE COURT: The one we're dealing with. 12 MR. WEINBERG: -- on January 20th. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. WEINBERG: They actually filed, as it turns 15 out, date-stamped, on the very day that we're taking 16 Vaughn Young's depo, okay? 17 Now, that -- what happened in that hearing, my 18 recollection is -- and I'll ask him about it, but I 19 want to tell you why this is important -- is that -- 20 is that Mr. Dandar -- after Mr. Miscavige wasn't 21 allowed to be added in October, Mr. Dandar said that 22 this was all new to him; that he had found out new 23 stuff -- new stuff about the Sea Org and the 24 organization, the hierarchy of the Church of 25 Scientology, that would allow him to add
504 1 Mr. Miscavige under this different theory. And he 2 said the new information that he had was -- was -- 3 was Jesse Prince. 4 Well, the truth of the matter was -- is that -- 5 is that, according to Mr. Dandar's testimony, 6 Mr. Young, back in 1997, had already gone over that 7 stuff with him. And there was a letter in May of 8 '97 where Mr. Dandar was already talking about 9 adding David Miscavige. 10 And what happened was -- is that it was -- it 11 would have been very uncomfortable for Mr. Dandar, 12 in -- with Mr. Young's depo, which was being taken 13 out of turn because of his cancer thing, for 14 Mr. Young to be saying right at the time that 15 Mr. Dandar was being allowed to add David Miscavige 16 under this so-called new information, to -- for us 17 to have learned that in fact there was nothing new 18 about it and that he already had this information. 19 And it should have been brought out, if it was going 20 to be brought out, a long time before. 21 And so my belief is -- is that this was 22 intentionally withheld; it was intentionally 23 withheld because it would have -- it would have 24 been -- it would have been very illuminating to know 25 that, as early as May of 1997, they were talking
505 1 about Mr. -- that there were complaints going back 2 and forth between Mr. Young and Mr. Dandar, and they 3 were talking about adding Mr. Miscavige. And there 4 would have been a lot more questions that we would 5 have been asking Mr. Young about if in fact we 6 had -- we had known that. Or we'd have gone to 7 Judge Moody. But we didn't. 8 THE COURT: Counsel -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: So that's not fair. 10 THE COURT: -- was not the basis for adding 11 Mr. Miscavige at the fifth amended complaint stage 12 that he had just learned about this or was it he had 13 just learned about the Sea Org theory? 14 MR. WEINBERG: He said he had just learned 15 about the hierarchy, including the Sea Org. 16 THE WITNESS: Well -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: That's what he said. 18 THE WITNESS: I -- 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Right? Is that correct? 21 A I'm sorry. Is that a question? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Thank you. 24 No. First amended complaint -- take a look at the 25 first amended complaint and you will see Mr. Miscavige named
506 1 in the paragraphs 12, 16 and 18. But I didn't name him as a 2 defendant at that time. And I guess I should have went 3 ahead and just did it. But I didn't do it until I met with 4 Jesse Prince, and then I got a lot of more evidence than I 5 ever had before. 6 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't really answer the 7 question. 8 The question that he is trying to suggest is 9 that this -- this -- and as I said, the options are 10 still exactly the same as they were before: You had 11 an obligation either to produce this or to say, 12 "I've got some other stuff and I'm not producing it 13 because it's privileged." 14 THE WITNESS: That's right. I agree with you a 15 hundred percent. 16 THE COURT: Right. 17 So either you knew you had this and you 18 deliberately withheld it and lied when you were 19 talking on that deposition, or you didn't have it, 20 and when you went through your stuff, it wasn't 21 there, and you forgot about it, since it was dated 22 May 2nd of 1997. It's one of those. 23 THE WITNESS: Well -- 24 THE COURT: If you didn't have it, your office 25 either lost it, somebody stole it, or you threw it
507 1 away deliberately. I mean, there are just very few 2 options here that exist. 3 THE WITNESS: Or it was misplaced. 4 THE COURT: Or it was misplaced. 5 THE WITNESS: The lying part is not an option 6 for me. There's no need to lie about this letter. 7 So that's not an option. It's either it was in a 8 different file or it was somewhere else; it was gone 9 from my office, it was misplaced or it was thrown 10 away. But lying is not an option for me. 11 THE COURT: Well, no. It is not a very good 12 option for you, that's for sure. 13 But you understand what he is saying as to why 14 it makes sense that you are lying about it. 15 THE WITNESS: Why -- it doesn't make sense, 16 though. I'm just saying -- 17 THE COURT: Well, then you didn't understand 18 him. 19 THE WITNESS: No. I understood him. 20 THE COURT: All right. And so you've made your 21 point, and I think it's time that we go have lunch. 22 MR. WEINBERG: And I was going to a new area 23 anyway, so that's perfect. 24 THE COURT: What's that? 25 MR. WEINBERG: I was going to a new area
508 1 anyway, so that's perfect. 2 THE COURT: All right. It's time for lunch. 3 And it's 10 after. And we'll be in recess until 4 1:30. 5 And I really need to go. I don't need anymore. 6 I got to -- I need to take some time. What do you 7 want? 8 MR. FUGATE: I just want -- 9 THE COURT: Make it quick. 10 MR. FUGATE: I just want the copy that you put 11 in the trash of the motion -- or the response that I 12 filed because I found I gave you my courtesy copy. 13 That's it. 14 THE COURT: This? I'm not giving it back. 15 MR. FUGATE: Never mind. I'll get -- 16 THE COURT: Can you get another one? 17 MR. FUGATE: That's fine. I'll just -- 18 (A recess was taken at 12:13 p.m.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
509 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 6th day of June, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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