Part 1, transcript of Stacy Young and Jesse Prince on WMNF radio[Transcript 3 December 1998]From: Xenubat@primenet.com (Bat Child (Sue M.)) Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: XENU: Part 1, transcript of Stacy Young and Jesse Prince on WMNF radio, 12/3/98 Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 08:42:37 GMT This show is available in RealAudio at : pnm://audio3.wmnf.org/120398/live86.ra (Scientology segment starts at about 9:38 of the RA file). ================================================= HOST: There you have some listener comments following yesterdays show. Now Im happy to welcome Stacy Young and Jesse Prince, both of whom are former members of the Church of Scientology. Theyve left the church and theyre here this weekend because there are gonna be vigils outside the church headquarters in Clearwater as opponents of the Church of Scientology speak out against the church. Stacy and Jesse, welcome to WMNF, nice to have you here. Thanks for coming by. JESSE PRINCE: Thank you. HOST: Jesse, let me start with you. How long were you in the church? What did you do in the church? JP: I was in the Church for Scientology for 16 years. I started out--well, thats a story in and of itself. But I became a staff member here at the church in Florida in Clearwater, and I was here from the years of1979 to 1981, at which point I was recruited and promoted for senior executive position within a church corporation called the Religious Technology Center, which is a corporation which holds the trademarks of Dianetics and Scientology and licenses other organizations to use its materials. HOST: These are the official church secrets, so to speak, or official church philosophy? JP: Yeah, it is the writings of L. Ron Hubbard, his technical writings as well as his policy writings, as well as their confidential secret materials. HOST: How high up did you get in the church hierarchy? JP: Um, corporately I was the second most senior person within the Church of Scientology from the years 1982 to early 1987. HOST: What attracted you to Scientology? What did you find valuable in Scientology? JP: Well, in the beginning, I was--I was young. I was 21 years old and confused, I guess just as confused as most 21-year-olds are, and, um, you know, I had an interest in helping people, I had an interest in learning something that would make me an asset to society, and Scientology had many claims of being able to do such a thing. HOST: Um-hmm. Stacy Young, let me turn to you. How long were you in the church and what attracted you to the church originally? STACY YOUNG: I was in for almost 15 years, from 1975 until 1981. Um, I think I have to agree with Jesse, when I first got in, I was 23, it was the mid-70s, very idealistic times, as you remember. Um, and I felt very strongly that I wanted to do something to help people. I was an idealist and, um, really wanted to feel like I was doing something to change things for the better. And, um, Scientology seemed to offer that possibility and that potential. Um, so I was very excited about getting involved in, in this organization, about which of course I knew very little; um, and I should have found out much more about it before I got involved. But, uh, that was basically why, how it started for me as well. HOST: How high up or, what did you do while you were there in the Church of Scientology? SY: Well, the first few years that I was in, I, um--again because I wanted to do something to help people--I learned how to be one of their auditors, which is the term they use for counseling. Um, and I did hundreds and hundreds of hours of auditing on people. And then I moved up to supervising other people who were learning how to do the counseling procedures. Um, so I, I learned really as much as there was to know about their, quote-unquote, auditing technology. Um, after that I did a little stint in their prison camp, which is the Rehabilitation Project Force--if you see these people around the Fort Harrison Hotel in their black boiler suits running wherever they go, those are people who are on the Clearwater branch of their prison camp, basically. HOST: Why do you call it a prison camp? SY: Well, because its basically a political prison. People are sent there for disaffection, for being critical of management, for disagreeing with the way things are being done in one way or another. Um, and theyre kept on it until they stop being critical. HOST: What did you-- SY: Just as in any political prison, I suppose! HOST: Why were you assigned to the--to this? SY: I was assigned to it because I refused to work with the leader of Scientology, whose name is David Miscavige. Um, I think there was a big article about him in the "St. Pete Times" recently. Um, contrary to the way he was portrayed in that article, I found him to be, um, an extremely vicious, very corrupt, um, very, really fairly psychopathic personality. Um, he really enjoyed degrading people, ridiculing people, you know. He had one staff member get down on his hands and knees and push a pencil down the hall because he was late with a report one afternoon, and he just stood there laughing at him. And, um, I was in a position under him in which I was supposed to be carrying out his orders to treat other people in that way, and I refused to do it. And, um, he got very, very angry at me because I was not agreeing to follow his orders. And finally, one night he became so angry at me that he put me into an office, locked the door and screamed at me until I really--you know, I hadnt slept in several days because sleep deprivation is a big part of the way they control people at the higher levels in Scientology management. So I hadnt slept much for about a week. Um, I was feeling very shaky already and his screaming caused me to feel, um, that I was going to lose my mind if I allowed myself to be subjected to this treatment any longer. So I went into another part of the organization the next morning and announced that I was not going to be able to work with him any longer. HOST: And you were assigned to what you describe as a prison camp. SY: Well, I was assigned very quickly thereafter. Um, I was up at their secret management compound outside of L.A. at the time and, um, at four in the morning there was a knock on the door and two guards were at the door and ordered me to pack my clothes and come with them. And, um, so I did that and I was escorted physically to a van which drove me down to Los Angeles in the middle of the night, and I was taken to the Rehabilitation Project Force where I stayed for the next eight months until I-- HOST: Are you saying that you tried to leave this or you wanted to leave but you couldnt get out? SY: Um, I wanted to leave very badly but I could not get out, it wasnt--I was not physically kept from leaving all the time that I was in there; I was kept physically from leaving for about four months. I was kept on the seventh floor of the--theres a big complex in Los Angeles which used to be the Cedars of Lebanon Hospital, um, and the RPF was on the seventh floor of that complex at the time. Um, and I was kept under house arrest on the seventh floor for about four months during my stay in the RPF until I was able to convince them that I would not leave if they allowed me off of that floor. HOST: Well, how would they prevent you from leaving? What would--what mechanism would they use? Would they-- SY: Well, I was under guard; there were guards at the door. I was not allowed to leave. I mean, Jesse was--Jesse had an even worse experience in being held against his will than I did. HOST: Jesse, what was your experience? JP: Um, well, in 1976, again in the 70s when I got into Scientology, I got in in San Francisco and then I was recruited into the fra--Scientology fraternal organization known as the Sea Org, Sea Organization. Um, I was in the Sea Organization I guess for two-and-a-half, maybe three months, at which point I, you know, I was being forced to stay awake and work long hours. I was being paid under five dollars a week for working 100+ hours. And I finally went to them and I said, you know, "Im not doing this, Im leaving." And they told me, "Well, no youre not!" And at that point, uh, this same location, Cedars of Lebanon, was fenced in in barb wire because it had not, I guess--the Cedars of Lebanon had moved to a new location and the building was for sale. Um, I was held in that facility, which was surrounded by barb wire--well, a barb wire fence and patrolled by German shepherd dogs as well as other guards, and I was forcefully taken up to the seventh floor in another building in that complex and held there for nearly a year. HOST: How were you held? JP: Uh, two to three people were assigned to guard me all the time in case I ever tried to leave. I was constantly supervised by guards, and, you know, theres no access to any telephone so I was not able to call my family or call the police or do anything. And as I said, this went on for nearly a year. HOST: Did these guards have guns? Or what would have happened had you tried to walk past them? JP: I would have been stopped. I mean, and that did happen, you know, they hold you--they hold you down. Basically, they physically hold you down, or lock you in a room. SY: But you have to understand that the same time youre being subjected to relentless indoctrination 24 hours a day. HOST: What kind of indoctrination? JP: Basically how bad of a person you really are. It kind of starts with the introductory tests that they give a person in Sciento--coming into Scientology, this Oxford Capacity Analysis test, which is a 200-question questionnaire, which then is--the sum of those answers are graphed on a graph, and you have low points and high points. And on the low points they, they explain to you, "Well, this is really bad" or "This is really ruining you and this is why you feel the way you feel now" and, you know, "Read this, read this Hubbard book." You need to read the books whether you want to read them or not. And you participate in the counseling whether you want to or not. And, you know, after a while, after this continuous indoctrination, you--one comes to believe that this is the only way through this experience, which is to comply and do what they want you to do. HOST: What about your families? Were your parents still alive? Did you have brothers and sisters? Did you have contact with them? JP: Yes. My family--my father actually thought I was dead because I wasnt able to contact them or speak to them for over a year. As I said, there was no access to the telephone. Also, Hubbard doesnt let his followers that are on staff watch television or read the newspapers. HOST: Why is that? JP: Well, I can only assume why it is, is because he doesnt want them to realize the truth. He doesnt want them to be contacted into the real world and feel a connection because there is so much against Scientology and people that have been hurt, as came up in the 1979 court case against Scientology where L. Ron Hubbards own wife Mary Sue Hubbard went to jail for practicing criminal activities against the government and private citizens. SY: Well, and I have been contacted by many, many people coming out of Scientology who had discovered the other side of the story from reading the Internet. Um, the Internet is Scientologys worst nightmare because its a free flow of information which is, uh, not only positive about Scientology but also critical about Scientology. And so someone getting into or thinking about getting into this organization now has an opportunity to find out what is actually happening within--within Scientology. Um, they definitely, uh, very much curtail the flow of information so that, uh, their indoctrination will work, you know. Weve been down picketing in front of the Fort Harrison because of, in honor of Lisa McPherson, who died in 1995, on December 5, and there are people that see us doing this and they say things to us which make it very clear to me that they have been told very specific things about me, about Jesse, about the other people that are there, that arent true. And they believe it because they have no way of getting any other information. HOST: Because theyre cut off from any sort of other avenue for information or-- SY: Absolutely. HOST: Stacy Young and Jesse Prince are our guests today. Youre listening to Radio Activity on WMNF; Im Rob Lorei. Were talking about the Church of Scientology. Stacy and Jesse are two former members of the church, reaching pretty high levels within the church, Jesse a one-time Number Two or Number Three person in the church hierarchy. Stacy, you worked for "Freedom" magazine and you described "Freedom" magazine and what you did, um, as the propaganda arm of the Church of Scientology. Why--why do you describe it that way? SY: Well, um, because its a--its a magazine which is produced very specifically to, uh, propagate Scientologys world view to the media, to, um, political figures, to major figures in business to try to change the minds of those particular people about Scientology and get them to think that Scientology is a good thing. And thats the purpose of the magazine. HOST: Who is the magazine sent to? SY: Its sent to the media and political figures [laughing] and major figures in business. HOST: You told me a case in which there was a lawsuit in Portland and the Church of Scientology was involved in a lawsuit in Portland, and the magazine was used in a very specific way. How--tell me, tell me that case. SY: Yeah. There was a woman named Julie Christofferson who was damaged very badly by her experience in Scientology and later sued them for intentional infliction of emotional distress and other damages. And, uh, Scientology lost--the jury, it was a jury trial and the jury found Scientology responsible, um, to the tune of $30 million. And this was a terrible, terrible blow to Scientology, not only financially but also public relations-wise, legally. And so the head of Scientology, David Miscavige, ordered that a--that we produce a special edition of "Freedom" magazine which was, um, basically designed to tell the, quote, true story, unquote, about Julie Christofferson and the various witnesses that had been in that case, whatever. And we, um, were ordered to have it distributed to every single house in Portland. And it cost about $2 million just for that one little public relations propaganda activity. HOST: But, but how do you know what was in the magazine was propaganda? Why do you, why do you say what you worked on was propaganda? SY: Well, as you know, uh, a regular journalist, when theyre doing a story, they make sure that theyre telling the truth. They get both sides, they talk to--you know, if they talk to one person who is critical of the subject, then they usually try to talk to another person whos got a different point of view to make sure that theyre not just, uh, parroting someones own agenda. Um, the way the "Freedom" magazine stories are written is not that way, you know, we were fed information by the intelligence division of Scientology, um, or--, ordered to write a story from our seniors or whatever. And, uh, if we questioned the point of view that we were ordered to take in the story, we were considered, um, to be disaffected or, you know, in some way suspect of our motivations for doing so, so-- HOST: What happens to people who are disaffected? SY: They go to the RPF, which is the prison camp [laughing]. HOST: How many, how many RPFs are there? How many of these-- SY: Well, its a Sea Organization thing, so theres--theres an RPF unit wherever you find a Sea Organization unit. Um, in Los Angeles theres a big one. In Clearwater there is also one. Um, theres-- JP: Europe. SY: In Europe, you know; in Copenhagen theres another RPF; and, um-- JP: The U.K., theres another one, in the U.K. SY: Yeah. HOST: Why did you guys leave? What--Jesse, why--what made you leave the Church of Scientology? JP: Well, theres very--you know, theres a very exact reason why I left. There was a point in time where, even after the first two years of my Scientological experience, at the end of that imprisonment at that time, I was told it was a big mistake, you know, "This should have never happened to you" and I was given several thousand dollars and asked to please state, because now you understand what were doing, and to help us along. Well, you know, I did--I did that and instead of making $3/week I was raised to $24/week. And then I came here where--you know, at Flag--where I made a better income and I was able to--I went home and I saw my family and told them I was OK and saw my children, saw my brothers and sisters and, you know, kind of explained that there was a mix-up at the beginning but now Im OK. And, um, then I was drafted to go to the Los Angeles secret location at which point I learned that the hierarchy of Scientology itself doesnt believe in Scientology and actually is just like any other major corporation whose main objective is money. But the way the church procures money is through deception, um, high-pressure sales techniques; I mean, even the--this poor girl that died at the hands of Scientology, Lisa McPherson, um, was paying X amount of her income every week to the International Association of Scientologists, and she received no services whatsoever. Um, I learned how they pressure people to max out their credit cards, get money, lie to families, get trust funds turned over, and they were just amassing this giant treasure chest of money. They being David Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock, um, Norman Starkey, a South African fellow thats extremely prejudiced, um, Marty Rathbun, um, a person that is over their, uh, intelligence and legal arms, which are criminal to the point that even as I sit here, there are private investigators calling my children, posing as police officers, saying that I am wanted in Denver, Colorado for jumping bail or leaving because I have some kind of legal action going on; and then theyre explaining to them things that I did in my life earlier because theyd gone through my confidential auditing files and pulled embarrassing things, or, you know, things that could cause trouble; and theyre spreading them around to my father, my sister, my cousins, my friends, business associates, as we sit here. HOST: So you--so youre saying the harassment goes on now. Uh, Stacy, I want to ask you about why you left; but first of all, auditing--describe what auditing is. When you say that they keep a file on you, whats in that file? And what is auditing? SY: Uh, within that file is all of your, um, innermost secrets, you know; when youre a Scientologist, you believe that what youre telling your counselor, your auditor, is going to be held in confidence. Um, and in fact the information is written down in detail in folders; sometimes people will end up with 30, 40, 50 of these folders that have all of their confessionals recorded-- HOST: So, so if you shoplifted, if you lied, if you-- SY: Everything-- HOST: Had sex with somebody, if you did something even worse than that--youre confessing this all during the auditing process. SY: Right-- JP: Right-- SY: Right, you are, and youre--and youre assuming that youre confessing it in confidence. Um, but if you leave and decide to try to expose what youve discovered is really going on in Scientology--which is what Im doing, what Jesses doing, what various other people are doing--um, you quickly discover that those confessionals are only confidential as long as youre, uh, willing to, to maintain your loyalty to the Scientology leadership. Um-- JP: And never do you imagine that the information that youre giving--in an effort similar to other religious faiths where you, you give a confession and you try to change your life--never in your wildest imagination would a person believe that now this information would be taken and given to my family or maybe given to my employer or given to my children or whatever. And its--its a very spiteful organization. I came to learn from my experience in that hierarchy of Scientology that Scientology truly is no church at all; its an intelligence organization masquerading itself as a church and acting in a very Mafia-like way. I mean, Ive seen Miscavige have staff members held so that he could spit in their face, kick them, punch them, ranting and raving. I mean, hes, hes pretty much a lunatic, you know, for lack of a better way to describe his character. But he, and he has many different sides. But its a very vicious organization and, um, I left for that very reason. HOST: Do--I want to get to Stacy and your story, but do we know how much money Scientology takes in every week? Or every year? JP: Well, I know when I was--worked in Clearwater at 210 S. Fort Harrison at their establishment there, they would often send to Los Angeles $1.1-1.2 million/week. SY: And that was just from one organization-- JP: One organization. ==================================================== (CONTINUED IN PART TWO) ==================================================== Sue, SP4(:), listed on the Scieno Sitter list 5 times! -- http://www.primenet.com/~xenubat "It will take a *long* time to find another enemy with the combination of evil and incompetence you see in Scientology."--Keith Henson Background courtesy of Windy's Web Design |