KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 12 OF 12 TESTIMONY OF CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG STACY BROOKS SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 17, 2002. Morning Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1630 APPEARANCES: MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, NY 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1631 APPEARANCES: (Continued) MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. Attorney for Robert Minton MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 Attorney for Stacy Brooks ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw Mr. Brian Asay Ms. Joyce Earl
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1632 1 (The proceedings began at 9:03 a.m.) 2 MR. McGOWAN: Good morning, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Good morning. 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, if it please the 5 Court, my client, Ms. Brooks, just has advised me that 6 yesterday evening she received a voice message from 7 Jesse Brooks -- 8 THE COURT: Jesse Prince? 9 MR. McGOWAN: Pardon? 10 THE COURT: Jesse Prince? 11 MR. McGOWAN: Or Jesse Prince, sorry. It's 12 been a long week. Jesse Prince. I believe the Court 13 issued an order that people shouldn't be having 14 contact with one another. This obviously is a 15 violation of it, and I would just ask that the Court 16 reiterate that order so that word can get to 17 Mr. Prince that he's not to do that. 18 It's my understanding he thinks he has some 19 belongings at the LMT. And if he wants to supply a 20 list to Mr. Dandar, give it to me, and we'll do what 21 we have to do. But we would ask that he not 22 contact -- 23 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar, 24 obviously, Mr. Prince isn't here because he's under 25 the sequestration ruling. Would you please contact
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1633 1 him if you can? 2 MR. DANDAR: I will. 3 Was it a voice mail? 4 MR. McGOWAN: Voice message. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. 6 THE COURT: And advise him he really 7 shouldn't have -- be talking to witnesses. And if he 8 has something he wants, put it in writing, give it to 9 you, you can give it to Ms. Brooks' counsel, and that 10 would be the best way to proceed. 11 MR. DANDAR: All right. 12 THE COURT: Let's take up a couple little 13 things this morning so maybe we can get done by this 14 afternoon. I had indicated yesterday that I would 15 like to have Mr. Merrett here personally. And the 16 reason for that is, well, fairly obvious. 17 It has been alleged and testimony has been 18 taken that he is a part of this alleged fraud on the 19 Court. It has been alleged, I would suspect, that he 20 has suborned perjury, he has destroyed evidence or has 21 made evidence unavailable that has been ordered by the 22 Court to be produced, that he has obstructed justice 23 in assisting a witness who knew that certain things 24 had been ordered produced by the Court by suggesting 25 that they be left in the hall and they would
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1634 1 disappear, which they did. There is a question of an 2 affidavit and who prepared it. 3 We can't do that kind of stuff over the 4 telephone. There's going to be a need to show him 5 documents. He is a member of the Florida Bar. I 6 would think that I could enter an order compelling his 7 attendance and plan to do so. 8 I wish somebody would prepare it for me, 9 because I don't have any time -- 10 MR. DANDAR: I'll do it. 11 THE COURT: -- to dictate orders. Would you 12 do it? 13 MR. DANDAR: I'll do it. 14 THE COURT: And if you would, it would be 15 just that this is the motion that's being heard and he 16 has been alleged to be a party involved in the very 17 things that are -- you know, just what I said, that 18 if -- undoubtedly from the testimony that I've heard 19 thus far, it will be necessary for him to see 20 documents as part of his testimony. This just simply 21 cannot be done over his phone. His credibility could 22 be at issue, and the Court just needs to see him. 23 And there -- and I think you ought to put in 24 there he is a member of the Florida Bar and that 25 his -- these matters would bear on his fitness to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1635 1 continue in that practice. And therefore, it's 2 essential to him and this Court that he appear; thus, 3 he is ordered to appear. 4 But I want to give him a date. In other 5 words, I'd like to give him a date certain where he 6 could come and be questioned and leave. I don't know 7 where we are. I don't know when we're going to get 8 done. But we have that one Tuesday set aside. 9 MR. FUGATE: The 28th of May? 10 THE COURT: Right. 11 MR. FUGATE: Right. 12 THE COURT: That gives us all next week. 13 And I would think that we could take -- give a lawyer 14 the courtesy of taking him out of order. 15 So unless I hear some strong opposition, it 16 would seem like that would be the date. I mean, I 17 can't just order him to come and sit. So if I don't 18 hear a strenuous objection from either side, I would 19 like it to be that day. It gives him some time. 20 Any objection? 21 MR. FUGATE: No objection, your Honor. 22 MR. HOWIE: No. 23 THE COURT: Okay. So we'll agree that he 24 can be taken out of order if he appears on that date. 25 MR. DANDAR: All right. Judge, if you tell
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1636 1 me not to do it, I won't, but may I have permission to 2 contact Mr. Merrett and tell him your strong desire to 3 have him here? 4 THE COURT: Yes. And I'm going to issue a 5 strong order to have him come. He can fight me on 6 that if he wants, whether it's the authority of this 7 Court to compel his presence, but it just wouldn't be 8 very well advised. 9 MR. DANDAR: I would be very surprised if he 10 would fight you on it. 11 THE COURT: Okay. So, I mean, I'm happy to 12 let him come in the order in which I would presume you 13 would want to call him. 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 THE COURT: And so I'm happy for him to come 16 at your beckon, rather than that date. But, you know, 17 if he's even remotely reluctant, I'm going to enter an 18 order. 19 MR. DANDAR: All right. 20 THE COURT: Now, while we're dealing with 21 that, I saw a motion to compel. I have no idea where 22 it is. It's here somewhere, something that you filed 23 requesting that I compel the attendance of several 24 people. 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes, Mr. --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1637 1 THE COURT: Some of them are lawyers, but I 2 don't think either of them are members of the Florida 3 Bar. 4 MR. DANDAR: But they are the attorneys for 5 the Church of Scientology. They took part in these 6 so-called negotiations. 7 THE COURT: But don't you think they're 8 going to state that they were there as a lawyer for 9 the Church and thus they cannot discuss it? 10 MR. DANDAR: No, because they're discussing 11 things with third parties who are not protected under 12 any privilege, so there's no privilege attaching to 13 these meetings. 14 THE COURT: Well, okay. So you've asked for 15 Ms. Yingling? 16 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder, who 17 is not an attorney. 18 THE COURT: Okay. If you all will 19 respond -- 20 MR. FUGATE: And me. 21 THE COURT: And Mr. Fugate. 22 MR. FUGATE: I will be here from day to day, 23 Judge, I hate to say. 24 THE COURT: Yes, I think you will be, so we 25 can address that when we get to it. But Mr. Fugate is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1638 1 present. 2 Any objection to the motion to compel? I 3 know I didn't say I was going to take it up. Do you 4 want me to wait until this afternoon? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: I thought if I needed to do 7 orders, you know, then I'll do orders. I need to get 8 them done, because I don't want people, you know, to 9 get served an order the day before we might want their 10 appearance. We'll take that up after the lunch break, 11 the motion to compel. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: And you talk to Mr. Merrett, 14 because if he doesn't think he might want to appear or 15 if he is reluctant, then I just have to -- need to 16 order him to show. 17 MR. DANDAR: All right. 18 THE COURT: The other thing that was going 19 through my head -- it's always dangerous when I have 20 time to think and I'm alert enough to think -- I 21 wondered -- the Church had indicated at one time that 22 it had two more summary judgment motions that we 23 needed to deal with prior to trial. 24 MR. FUGATE: I've got a courtesy copy of the 25 motion for summary judgment on the fifth cause of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1639 1 action. 2 THE COURT: Is that on this same issue? 3 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 4 MR. WEINBERG: No. It's on a different 5 point, but it's on the -- 6 THE COURT: Okay. The negligence claim. 7 Well, I had wondered if you were going to file a 8 motion for summary judgment on the wrongful death 9 count. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, I guess in 11 some sense we think that the motion for terminating 12 sanctions encompasses that because it makes the point 13 that there are no facts to support it. If your Honor 14 would like me to file a separate motion for summary 15 judgment -- 16 THE COURT: Well, you know, I never know 17 what appellate courts think based on what decisions I 18 make. I mean, I don't want some appellate court, for 19 example, to suggest that this is inappropriately 20 decided on a motion to dismiss; it should have been 21 decided on a motion for summary judgment. It doesn't 22 really assist either side. 23 We need to get some kind of order, whatever 24 the order is, and take it up, whoever loses it, and 25 not have some procedural suggestion that this is a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1640 1 summary judgment matter as opposed to a motion to 2 dismiss. 3 In other words, some of your motion is based 4 on fraud -- 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 6 THE COURT: -- this type of thing. Some of 7 it is based on -- well, it's either false or, if it's 8 not false, there's no basis in fact -- 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Correct. 10 THE COURT: -- to support it. And most of 11 the cases -- as I look at that, with attorney fees and 12 this type of thing. I just suspect -- I don't know, 13 because a summary judgment usually says that there is 14 no basis in fact, and you usually do this by 15 affidavit. But here we are taking testimonies from 16 what might be principal affiants on a motion. 17 I presume, Mr. Dandar, that if the motion 18 for summary judgment were filed your affiant would be 19 Mr. Prince. 20 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 21 THE COURT: And if Mr. Prince is the 22 affiant, he's going to be a witness here. I'm not 23 sure how that plays in a summary judgment as opposed 24 to a motion to dismiss. 25 But my thinking is if you were going to file
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1641 1 one -- 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 3 THE COURT: -- and it's filed -- it's filed, 4 that it may be something that I could consider at the 5 same time. I don't know. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. We'll try and put one 7 together, if we can have -- 8 THE COURT: Oh, yes. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- a little bit of time to 10 do that. 11 THE COURT: You can. I just didn't know if 12 that was going to be one of the summary judgment 13 motions that you were going to file. I assumed it 14 was -- 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 16 THE COURT: -- based on the motion to 17 dismiss. I don't want to hear this twice. And so if 18 it's done by affidavit, I'll have the affidavits. If 19 it can be done by the taking of live testimony, I will 20 have done that. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 22 THE COURT: But if I don't have a motion -- 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Correct. 24 THE COURT: -- I can't consider anything 25 towards motions. But I don't know if I can take live
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1642 1 testimony on motions for summary judgment or not, to 2 tell you the truth. But if I can, why, I can take 3 testimony. 4 MR. DANDAR: I'm not understanding any of 5 this, but -- 6 THE COURT: You're not? 7 MR. DANDAR: It's a mini trial, is what this 8 is, without a jury, violating the jury trial. And 9 57.05 does not result in dismissal of the case, as you 10 pointed out. 11 THE COURT: It isn't a mini jury trial. The 12 trial that I thought we were going to try would deal 13 with the allegation of wrongful death, battery, 14 negligence, and what have you in the death of Lisa 15 McPherson. That would involve experts for both sides. 16 There will be one of those folks called in 17 this hearing. This hearing is not -- if you think 18 that this hearing is about what is going to be tried, 19 as I understand you, that is not what it is. 20 There may be one witness that would be 21 called in this trial that I may hear from. It's 22 probably Jesse Prince. And that is assuming that that 23 is the only person that you have or that's the person 24 you elect to call for your wrongful death -- 25 MR. DANDAR: No, actually -- I'm sorry. I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1643 1 will be calling Jesse -- for this hearing, I'll be 2 calling Jesse Prince, Bill Franks, and Vaughn Young. 3 THE COURT: Okay, okay. Well, then those 4 three would be people that would be called -- 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- in the trial. So -- but, I 7 mean, the trial is supposed to last two months, and I 8 can't imagine that it would take two months. So this 9 is not a mini trial. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. 11 THE COURT: It is a trial based on the 12 allegations that have been raised, which are not 13 issues that I'm going to put before a jury. I'm going 14 to make those decisions as a matter of law. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 THE COURT: And I would hope that if those 17 three witnesses were called that what they might 18 testify to at this hearing may be somewhat different, 19 may be somewhat the same, as to what they would be 20 testifying to at trial. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 22 THE COURT: So I think a summary judgment 23 motion basically says that there are no issues of 24 fact. 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1644 1 THE COURT: It might well be filed, only 2 because, as I said, I am sure that the plaintiff will 3 file an affidavit stating that there are issues of 4 fact, and that's usually how summary judgments are 5 done. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 7 THE COURT: I haven't gotten so far as to 8 research the law that says if in fact there's been an 9 evidentiary hearing the Court can make decisions based 10 on that testimony, as opposed to an affidavit in a 11 summary judgment motion. I don't even know. But it's 12 an interesting thought. If you were going to file a 13 motion for summary judgment on Count I -- 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 15 THE COURT: -- my suggestion would be that 16 it be filed before this hearing is over. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: It will be. 18 THE COURT: If you weren't going to file one 19 and you were going to rely only on the motion to 20 dismiss -- I'm not suggesting you file one. But you 21 all have said you planned to file several more summary 22 judgments -- 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 24 THE COURT: -- and I thought perhaps that 25 was going to be one of them. And if it were, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1645 1 thought, Well, get it done and we'll -- I'll then be 2 able to research at some point in time whether, as 3 opposed to just affidavits, I can determine live 4 testimony -- 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 6 THE COURT: -- because I don't know the 7 answer to that. And you all might research that for 8 me. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. We also will be 10 arguing that whatever testimony you might hear from 11 these people is incompetent and therefore fails to 12 meet whatever standard -- 13 THE COURT: Well, and for that as well. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right. 15 THE COURT: You know, as I said, I really 16 was kind of interested -- and I know I don't express 17 myself very well on evidentiary matters. But I 18 thought it was quite interesting to read Ehr- -- 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Ehrhardt? 20 THE COURT: Ehrhardt, thank you. 21 -- on his thought on that case that counsel 22 cited, because I kind of agreed with you when you 23 cited that, that the parties shouldn't be required to, 24 you know, come forward. 25 However, as he noted in his footnote -- I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1646 1 have to go back and read what he said. But what he 2 said was that case misconstrues the liberal discovery 3 in Florida, that that's exactly what is to be done, if 4 somebody alleges something, that that can be decided 5 at pretrial -- 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Absolutely. 7 THE COURT: -- and should be decided at 8 pretrial and we ought not go pick juries and get 9 through days -- however many days it might be, even a 10 three-day trial -- if in fact there's no basis to 11 support something. Or if there's no basis to allow a 12 witness in to testify, like an expert, that the party 13 ought to know that ahead of time, rather than all of a 14 sudden they're in the middle of a trial and they think 15 that somebody is going to be called as a witness, 16 their case depends on it, and the Court rules their 17 witness can't testify. 18 So it sounds to me like what he's suggesting 19 is that some of these things really should be decided 20 pretrial. And it made sense to me. And so -- 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 22 THE COURT: -- there you have it. That's 23 Schaeffer on evidence. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's good enough for me, 25 Judge.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1647 1 THE COURT: Okay. I feel better with 2 Schaeffer on the criminal level, but this is the best 3 I can do with my limited knowledge of civil. 4 Okay. That takes care of my thoughts. 5 Throw them in the wastebasket. 6 Now you may continue. 7 MR. DANDAR: Judge, before I start 8 questioning, I asked the -- yesterday and I ask again, 9 either the defendants or Ms. Brooks, to produce the 10 letters from Dan Leipold that preceded Exhibit -- 11 Defendant's Exhibit 77, her letter to Dan Leipold, 12 May 1st, 2002, and the letter that came in response to 13 her letter of May 1st, 2002. 14 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think I have 15 those. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 17 Oh, and by the way, just for whatever it's 18 worth, I read the -- not that anybody will care or 19 whatever. I probably will never be posted on the Web 20 site or Internet or whatever these things are. 21 However, for whatever it's worth, I did read these 22 postings, if that's what they're called, last night 23 that had been submitted yesterday. I think they were 24 Plaintiff's 82 and 83. 25 That's outrageous, those types of things
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1648 1 being put out on the Internet. So, for whatever it's 2 worth, I can't imagine why people -- you know, the 3 First Amendment is something that we should all guard 4 and jealously guard and a person's right to say what 5 they want to say, and to protest and to picket and all 6 those types of things are valuable rights that we 7 have. 8 But, however, when people write -- and even 9 obnoxious and vile things. If somebody wants to read 10 them, why, there are people to read. But talking 11 about, apparently -- as I said, as the day progresses, 12 I get to where I can't see, I guess, as well. But I 13 didn't quite realize what -- what was being suggested 14 here. 15 But it just sounds like people are talking 16 about killing this man, Mr. Miscavige, and people are 17 offering their services -- and even talking about 18 prices and how to do it. And it sounds like terrorism 19 to me. 20 So I didn't appreciate it. I wish that they 21 would stop. But, there. Nobody will care what I say. 22 But I've said it. Make me feel better. 23 MR. DANDAR: It has nothing to do with the 24 Estate. 25 THE COURT: I'm sure it does not, although I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1649 1 see people posting. You know, hate and bigotry 2 doesn't serve anyone very well. 3 MR. DANDAR: I'm making all this noise 4 making copies of the letters -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: -- for Mr. Leipold and 7 Ms. Brooks. 8 THE WITNESS: I didn't find them, but I 9 believe I gave them to my attorney. If you can give 10 me copies if you're going to ask me. 11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION, RESUMED, OF STACY BROOKS 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Now, we also saw yesterday, Ms. Brooks, a letter 14 from Mr. Moxon to you dated April 4th, the day before Judge 15 Schaeffer's hearing. 16 A Do you want me to pull that one out? 17 Q I think it's an exhibit, actually. 18 A I have a copy. 19 Q And I forgot to mark down the exhibit number. 20 It's April 4th. 21 THE CLERK: 41? 22 MR. DANDAR: No. It's a letter from 23 Mr. Moxon. 24 (Mr. Dandar spoke to the clerk off the 25 record.)
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1650 1 MR. FUGATE: Here's a copy of it here. It's 2 actually Mr. Howie. 3 THE COURT: I think it was part of the 4 production. 5 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q It's Mr. Howie -- April 4th from Mr. Moxon to 8 Mr. Howie waiving -- agreeing to discuss with you and 9 Mr. Minton or Mr. Minton without his attorney present. 10 Now, isn't it true that the day before that, on April 3rd, 11 you telephoned me -- 12 THE COURT: Let me just tell you all that 13 the reason for the clamor out there is there's a bunch 14 of new police officers being sworn in today, and I 15 think they're leaving. So perhaps the ceremony is 16 over and it'll quiet down. But that's what it is. So 17 we'll just go through it, okay? 18 MR. DANDAR: Do you want me to wait? 19 THE COURT: No, go ahead. Unless it gets 20 too loud. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q All right. The day before that letter of 23 April 4th, which would be April 3rd, you telephoned me. Do 24 you remember telephoning me and telling me that everything 25 was fine between me, you, and Bob Minton and that you would
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1651 1 see me when you got to Florida? 2 A I don't, but I -- perhaps you could refresh my 3 memory. 4 Q Now, all these declarations that you've filed in 5 court in other cases, have you been deposed about those 6 declarations in the other cases? 7 A About a particular declaration? 8 Q Yes. Like let's take the Fishman case. Were you 9 deposed in the Fishman case? 10 A I believe I was, but I -- I'm not sure. 11 Q Okay. Were you deposed in the Wollersheim case? 12 A I'm not really sure. I have -- I have been 13 deposed -- I was deposed in -- I know I was deposed in the 14 Dickerson case. I believe I was deposed in the Sterling 15 case, but I -- I'm not sure about the other cases, 16 actually. 17 Q In any of the cases in which you were deposed, 18 did you deny the accuracy or the truthfulness of your 19 declarations filed in that case? 20 MR. FUGATE: Object. No foundation for the 21 question. She said she didn't remember. 22 THE COURT: Well, in whatever -- I suppose 23 just in the event they're able to find the depositions 24 so we know. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Also, it assumes that she was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1652 1 asked the question. 2 THE COURT: That's true. I would assume 3 they're going to find the deposition and see whether 4 or not she was asked that question. Maybe she'll 5 remember. Normally people get to know their 6 affidavits. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Do you remember being deposed about any of your 9 affidavits? 10 A I don't, really. As a matter of fact, this is 11 the first time I'm aware of being cross-examined, examined, 12 about an affidavit that I've written. I'm not saying it 13 hasn't happened at all, but -- 14 THE COURT: And let me explain to you 15 probably how this would have occurred. You don't get 16 examined and cross-examined -- maybe a little bit. 17 But they would just simply said what do you know about 18 this, what do you know about this, and they wouldn't 19 have pulled out the affidavit necessarily. But 20 whatever you would have testified to, they would have 21 been asking you questions about that -- 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 THE COURT: -- and expanding -- most likely 24 expanding on your affidavit, how, when, where, this 25 type of thing.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1653 1 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor. I'm not 2 aware that that was what was done in a deposition. It 3 may have happened as your Honor says, but I don't 4 remember that that happened. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Did you ever feel insecure about giving an 7 affidavit on Scientology practices because you had been out 8 since -- out of Scientology since '89? 9 A No, because the attorney said that it didn't 10 matter. 11 Q I'm asking you about your own personal comfort 12 level of being able to discuss Scientology practices in 13 '93, '94, up through today, without -- since you had left 14 so long ago in '89. 15 A Well, and again, I was taking my instruction from 16 the attorneys I was working for, and I was being told that 17 when I had been in Scientology didn't matter for the 18 purpose -- for their purposes. So I guess I -- I guess my 19 answer would be that my comfort level came from the 20 attorneys that were instructing me. 21 Q Isn't it true that you told the attorneys, 22 including me, that you could talk about Scientology 23 practices in the '90s because Scientology policy does not 24 change, pursuant to the doctrines established by or 25 policies established by Mr. Hubbard?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1654 1 A I believe we had a number of discussions that 2 way. 3 Q And is that true? The policies written by 4 Mr. Hubbard do not change unless he changed them himself? 5 A Yes. As I think we discussed yesterday, the bulk 6 of the doctrine would remain the same. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. Let me hand to the 8 clerk what is apparently a copy of Mr. Leipold's 9 letter of May 3rd, 2002. 10 Do you want to give him your original? 11 MR. McGOWAN: They have theirs. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. We'll just mark 13 this Plaintiff's Exhibit 42. Let me make another 14 copy. 15 So I need to make another copy for the 16 Court. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Maybe you don't. I don't 18 know what you're going to ask, but I will eventually 19 need it. 20 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'll tell you what, 21 Judge. I'll do this now, and I'll come back to this. 22 THE COURT: Okay. I can't find the letter 23 that was introduced yesterday. If you're going to 24 talk about it as part of this -- 25 MR. DANDAR: It's Defendant's 77.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1655 1 THE COURT: Well, unfortunately, I'm not in 2 order as good as -- I mean, it's here. 3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'll give you my copy 4 for now. But I'm going to not go there right now 5 while we're making some copies. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: This is 43. Okay. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Now, yesterday Mr. Fugate showed you a picture of 10 Teresita, the person that you and Jesse Prince watched in 11 an isolation watch who was in the shed in Hemet or the 12 complex -- wherever that is. Do you remember that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And she was pictured with her yellow jacket on, I 15 believe, at Ground Zero in New York at the World Trade 16 Center, the disaster. Do you recall that? 17 A I don't remember her having -- do you have the 18 photos? Or, I think I have mine. 19 Q Oh, did you get to keep the photos? 20 A Did I get to? Well, I did. 21 Q Do you have the photos? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Of Teresita. Here's one. 24 A I thought I did. 25 Q This yellow jacket. Is that what -- some of the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1656 1 things that Scientologists wore at Ground Zero? 2 A I'm not sure. 3 Q Did the LMT publish Scientology's actions, 4 interactions, at Ground Zero? Do you recall that? 5 A In what -- in what form would we have published 6 it? 7 MR. DANDAR: Well, let me show you 8 Plaintiff's Exhibit 41. I'll show you the one that's 9 marked by the clerk. 10 I'll hand a copy to the Judge. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q The question is, Do you recall the LMT publishing 13 on the Internet pictures taken off of Fox TV network of 14 Scientology at Ground Zero identifying themselves as the 15 National Mental Health Assistance and publishing on the -- 16 or, having the Fox News network put on their TV program 17 during the aftermath to call the 800 number when in fact 18 the National Mental Health Assistance -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me. 20 Objection. 21 Q -- is not associated -- 22 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Let him ask his 23 question. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q -- is not associated with the National Mental
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1657 1 Health Association but is, in fact, a direct line to the 2 Church of Scientology? 3 MR. FUGATE: I object. It's outside the 4 scope of the redirect and it's on a collateral matter. 5 And I object to the statement being made. 6 THE COURT: Well, to tell you the truth, it 7 was such a long question, I wasn't sure what it was. 8 But I think it is outside the scope. 9 What is the -- I mean, this is supposed to 10 the limited to the cross -- or, the redirect. 11 MR. DANDAR: Well, the redirect brought up 12 this Teresita, who Jesse and Stacy Brooks knew as 13 Teresa during the isolation watch, showing that she is 14 a -- that she's still alive and she continues to be a 15 Scientologist. And they showed pictures of the yellow 16 jacket that the Scientologists wore at Ground Zero in 17 New York City. And the inference drawn from that was 18 a positive inference. 19 And here Ms. Brooks published on the LMT 20 media Web site the Scientology deception that took 21 place at Ground Zero in New York City, quite to the 22 contrary the impression that Mr. Fugate and Ms. Brooks 23 wanted to leave with the Court yesterday. 24 THE COURT: I think this is too far outside 25 the scope of whatever we're doing. But apparently it
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1658 1 is in dispute. So the objection is sustained. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Okay. Then I'll see if we're ready for this. 4 I'm going to hand you Exhibit 42, which is the April 23rd, 5 2002, letter from -- 6 THE COURT: What is this, by the way? It 7 says LMT Media -- you know, it's not in evidence. Is 8 this like a Web site? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Is this the LMT Web site? 11 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. DANDAR: As far as I know. And I'll 14 hand the Court this. 15 THE COURT: Or is that just LMT stationery? 16 MR. DANDAR: No. That's a Web site, Judge. 17 And you can tell by looking at the bottom. It has the 18 Web site address at the bottom. 19 THE COURT: Okay. It does? Is this the 20 LMT? 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's actually the 22 download information when I downloaded this from the 23 Web site -- 24 THE COURT: Okay. I'll take your word for 25 it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1659 1 MR. DANDAR: All right. That's not the 2 actual Web site address, you're right. 3 THE COURT: Okay. You given me a copy of 4 42. 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes, which is Mr. -- 6 THE COURT: And then I have up here 77. I 7 thought there were three. 8 MR. DANDAR: Here comes the other one. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Now, this was 10 No. -- Plaintiff's 42. Hasn't that already been 11 attempted to be introduced? Or it wasn't introduced? 12 MR. DANDAR: They didn't have it yesterday. 13 THE COURT: I thought you introduced it the 14 very first day. Didn't you call Mr. Leipold? Didn't 15 you call Mr. Leipold? It doesn't matter. 16 MR. DANDAR: Well, I hope not. 17 THE COURT: Doesn't matter. Go ahead. 18 MR. DANDAR: All right. 19 THE COURT: Somebody was called on the 20 telephone. 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Mr. Leipold called in on 22 the telephone. And if I did, I -- it's been so long 23 ago, I forgot. 24 THE COURT: Okay. I understand. 25 I remember it was a letter to you from
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1660 1 Mr. -- 2 MR. DANDAR: I remember that too. 3 THE COURT: -- Leipold. 4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 5 And I'll hand the witness the actual marked 6 May 2nd, 2000, letter from Mr. Leipold. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Now, what I'm trying to find out, Ms. Brooks, is 9 when you called Mr. Leipold on Monday after Easter, which I 10 believe was April 2nd -- was it? Or was it during the 11 April 8th, after Mr. Minton's deposition? 12 A It was during April 8th, as I recall. 13 Q Okay. When you called Mr. Leipold and told him 14 to withdraw your affidavit, what affidavit was it in the 15 Wollersheim case that you asked him to withdraw? 16 A The one that he filed. 17 Q Were there more than one -- 18 A They proffered -- 19 Q Was there more than one? 20 A No, not -- not that he told me about. He told me 21 there was one. 22 Q When you were questioned yesterday by Mr. Fugate, 23 I believe you said that the affidavit that you asked him to 24 withdraw was dated December 14th of '94. Is that correct? 25 A I don't recall that I identified it by a date.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1661 1 I'm not sure I could tell you the date of it now. 2 Q Okay. 3 A I know that I had reviewed it with my attorney 4 prior to my phone call. 5 Q Okay. And in the court filing on the affidavits 6 we filed with the Court to support the plaintiff's motion 7 to add on additional parties, which included Vaughn Young's 8 affidavit of '99, October '99, plus your former affidavit 9 from March of '97, that March of '97 affidavit was in the 10 Wollersheim case, correct? 11 A No. I'd have to see it again. 12 Q All right. 13 A There's been so many papers in front of me, I 14 don't want to be confused. 15 Q All right. 16 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the clerk? 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 I have right here, if you all want it, the 19 14th of December affidavit. I mean, it's not the 20 clerk's copy; it's mine. 21 MR. DANDAR: That's a different one. 22 THE COURT: Oh. 23 MR. DANDAR: I need to straighten this out, 24 because we have so many affidavits circling. 25 Judge, do you have that -- can I look at
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1662 1 that binder? This one. It has the additional 2 authorities. This is where it's at. 3 And could I just hand this to the witness? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q This is found under section roman numeral IV of 7 the Estate's filing additional authorities to add on 8 parties dated October 7th of '99. That's your declaration, 9 and it's dated March of '97. Correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q All right. Is it your recollection that this is 12 the affidavit in the Wollersheim case that you were asking 13 Mr. Leipold to withdraw on April 8th of 2002? 14 A I would feel more comfortable checking with my 15 attorney about which affidavit that was. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Do you have a copy? 17 MR. DANDAR: Huh? Pardon me? 18 MR. McGOWAN: I believe yesterday we 19 requested copies of any affidavits that she would be 20 asked about, and I thought -- 21 THE COURT: This one is -- 22 MR. McGOWAN: This is in. 23 THE COURT: -- in. 24 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 25 MR. WEINBERG: It doesn't have the style on
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1663 1 it, though. 2 MR. McGOWAN: No, it doesn't. 3 THE COURT: Well, did you want to look at it 4 and see if you can tell? Go ahead. Go up there and 5 look. 6 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. FUGATE: Judge, while Mr. McGowan is 8 doing that, I just checked with the clerk, and we did 9 not offer the two video clips that we showed 10 yesterday. And I would like to have them, whatever 11 the next numbers are, marked and made a part of the 12 record. 13 THE COURT: Any objection? 14 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 15 THE COURT: They will be received. 16 MR. FUGATE: It would be 92 and 93? Madam 17 Clerk? 18 THE CLERK: Yes. 19 MR. FUGATE: And I apologize, Judge. 20 THE COURT: It's all right. At the end of 21 this, we can make sure that we do have -- 22 MR. FUGATE: Right. 23 THE COURT: -- all of the evidence for both 24 sides in. You all -- as you did on the Frye 25 hearing --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1664 1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I was pretty proud of 2 myself yesterday because I asked about everything, and 3 forgot about these. For the record, Judge, I'm 4 handing her the video clip from the edited LMT video 5 which was a meeting between Bob Minton, Jesse Prince, 6 Stacy Brooks. Wait a minute. Hold on. 7 Both the videos -- or, both clips are on the 8 same video, I'm sorry. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Just 92. 10 MR. FUGATE: Yes, be 92. Give a copy to 11 Mr. Dandar. 12 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q In the letters exchanged between -- that came 15 from Dan Leipold in response to your request to withdraw 16 your affidavit, declaration, in the Wollersheim case, 17 Mr. Leipold in his letters points out that he felt that you 18 and Bob Minton were under extreme pressure exerted by the 19 Church of Scientology. Isn't that correct? 20 A That's what he said, yes, that's correct. 21 Q And doesn't he also say that, based upon his 22 years of knowing you, that he knows that your declarations 23 were truthful? 24 A Where -- where does he say that? 25 THE COURT: May 2nd letter, one, two --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1665 1 third paragraph. He said, "I know that, regardless of 2 what you are saying now, that you told the truth in 3 your declaration." 4 MR. DANDAR: Correct. 5 A Yes, he did say that. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Okay. Did you ever -- did you ever point out to 8 him in writing other than that general statement you made 9 in your letter that it's in between these two letters 10 saying it's not true -- did you ever point out to him in 11 writing what you were now calling to be untrue in your 12 declaration? 13 A No, only in my telephone conversations with 14 him -- 15 Q All right. 16 A -- up to a meeting with my attorney. 17 Q And in that declaration, which is still in front 18 of you, in paragraph 17 and 18, you discuss how the 19 organization of all of the churches of Scientology are 20 managed by David Miscavige in his role as the captain of 21 the Sea Organization. Isn't that correct? 22 A Let me just look at it for a second. 23 Q All right. 24 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, I found my copy of 25 this letter, Plaintiff's 77 --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1666 1 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 2 THE COURT: -- Defendant's 77. 3 MR. DANDAR: Yes, yes. 4 THE COURT: I can give you yours back. What 5 we have here is Plaintiff's 42, a letter of 6 April 23rd -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: -- a response to that letter 9 dated May 1st, which is the Defendant's 77; and then 10 Plaintiff's 43, which is a response dated May 2nd. 11 MR. DANDAR: Right. Okay. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Paragraph 17 and 18 of that declaration is -- 14 talks about Mr. Miscavige's control of the Scientology 15 entities? 16 A Paragraph 18 does. 17 Q Okay. And in your years of, what, 14 or 15 years 18 in the Church of Scientology, how much time did you spend 19 in the same office or the same organization as 20 Mr. Miscavige? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Those are two different 22 questions, your Honor. In the same office? The same 23 organization? The organization could be -- 24 THE COURT: True. 25 MR. DANDAR: Same office.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1667 1 THE COURT: Is that ASI? 2 MR. DANDAR: ASI. 3 THE COURT: I'm learning these initials. 4 MR. LIROT: That was pretty good. 5 A When you say the same office, do you mean the 6 same office? 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Not physical office, but the same suite of 9 offices, like the offices of ASI in California. 10 A Oh. Nearly six months, I think. 11 Q Okay. And after that six months, what did you 12 do? 13 A Then I went to the RPF. 14 Q And after the RPF, what did you do? 15 A Then I worked as a course supervisor for several 16 months. 17 Q And then what did you do? 18 A Then I went into public relations. 19 Q For the Church of Scientology? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Is that in the Guardian's Office? 22 A No. That was in the Office of Special Affairs. 23 Q Okay. And did you have contact with 24 Mr. Miscavige in that office from time to time? 25 MR. FUGATE: I'm just going to object to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1668 1 relevance. I think it's outside the scope of the 2 redirect. We've been through this before as well, so 3 I object as repetitive. 4 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Did you have contact with Mr. Miscavige from time 7 to time as the public relations person in OSA? 8 A I believe twice after that. 9 Q And throughout your -- throughout your membership 10 in the Church of Scientology, were you required to write 11 reports of your stats? 12 A No. 13 MR. FUGATE: Same objection. It's outside 14 the scope. 15 THE COURT: That is outside the scope. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Now, when you were -- Mr. Fugate was asking you 18 questions about the harassment time line, that you 19 published 52 pages on the Internet and you helped to edit 20 or write. And you tried to compare that with the 21 harass- -- the statements made on the Internet by critics 22 of Scientology -- 23 A I don't believe I did. 24 Q You didn't do what? 25 A I believe --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1669 1 THE COURT: She answered questions that 2 Mr. Fugate posed to her. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q All right. The harassment of Bob Minton and 5 yourself has absolutely no comparison to people just 6 writing things on the Internet, does it? 7 A Mr. Dandar, I think that depends on your 8 perspective. 9 Q As far as you know, the critics of Scientology do 10 not follow the children of Scientologists, they don't 11 picket their home with children inside the home by 12 themselves, they don't call and scream harassing things on 13 the telephone -- 14 THE COURT: You can't ask a combined 15 question like that, Counselor. I mean, that's too 16 many questions. You can break it down and ask it one 17 at a time. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q All right. Outside of the Internet postings of 20 critics, are you aware of critics physically harassing 21 Church members? 22 A I'm not. 23 Q Okay. 24 A I don't know if they do or not. 25 Q Did Bob Minton send money to Graham Berry for the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1670 1 Pattinson litigation? 2 A Not to my knowledge. 3 Q Did he send money to Dennis Erlich for his 4 litigation? 5 A I believe so. 6 Q Did the LMT ever have private investigators meet 7 Scientologists at airports and confront them? 8 A Sorry? 9 Q Did the LMT ever have private investigators or 10 members of the LMT meet Scientologists at airports and 11 confront them? 12 A Not that I know of. 13 Q When you and Bob Minton went to Bennetta 14 Slaughter's home that one time, was she home? 15 A We didn't think so. 16 Q Did you ever go past her gate, her walled-in 17 gate? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And did you go up to her house? 20 A No. 21 Q In fact, all that's on video, isn't it? 22 A Kind of. 23 Q Has the LMT ever paid anyone to testify in the 24 wrongful death case of Lisa McPherson? 25 A The LMT has paid people who were scheduled to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1671 1 testify -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- and they -- the LMT paid Jesse. 4 Q Well, the payment of Jesse Prince, though, was 5 his salary for working at the LMT, correct? 6 A Well, yes, but he was also paid by the LMT while 7 he did work for you. 8 Q That was after he left my full-time -- while he 9 was with me full-time? That was after May of '99? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And from time to time, he would get me policies 12 on Scientology or maybe attend a deposition to assist me in 13 a deposition? Is that what you're talking about? 14 A Or write an affidavit for you or gather documents 15 for you or -- 16 Q Okay. All right. 17 A -- whatever. 18 Q Other than that, though, he was working full-time 19 at the LMT? 20 A Yes. 21 Q All right. Now, the $300,000 that the LMT 22 received from Operation Clambake, the man in Norway, that 23 money came from Bob Minton, correct? 24 A That's what I understood. 25 Q And how did you understand that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1672 1 A Mr. Minton told me that. 2 Q Did Mr. Minton give Mr. Henson money to -- for 3 Mr. Henson's defense on the criminal charges instigated by 4 the Church of Scientology? 5 A I believe not, at my request. 6 Q Now, Mr. Fugate asked you about the advisory 7 committee for the Lisa McPherson Trust. Do you recall 8 those questions yesterday? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Isn't it true that Mr. Minton put people on the 11 advisory committee on his own, without even asking the 12 people if they wanted to be on the advisory committee? 13 A I don't believe so. 14 Q For instance, Mr. Leipold. Was Mr. Leipold 15 placed and listed in the publication of the LMT as a member 16 of the advisory committee without asking him? 17 A I didn't think that that was the case. 18 THE COURT: Well, I suppose the question is, 19 Did you ever ask him? 20 THE WITNESS: No. I thought Mr. Minton -- 21 THE COURT: And were you present when 22 Mr. Minton asked him? 23 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: All right. Then I assume that 25 you don't know.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1673 1 THE WITNESS: Right. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Did the advisory committees of the LMT hold any 4 meetings? 5 A Not that I know of. 6 Q What was Jesse Prince's highest position in RTC? 7 A I believe I testified about that. 8 THE COURT: She's already, I think, done 9 that. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Well, there was some discussion yesterday that 12 Mr. Rosen made a mistake, calling him No. 2 worldwide, and 13 you said that -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. I'll allow that. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q -- you said that was a mistake by Mr. Rosen? 17 A Okay. 18 Q So what was he? 19 A The highest placed I know of that he held was 20 Deputy Inspector General External. 21 Q And how high is that? 22 A Well, I think he was under Vicki Aznaran, and 23 Vicki Aznaran was under -- well, either directly under 24 David Miscavige or -- I believe directly under David 25 Miscavige.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1674 1 Q So that would make him No. 3 worldwide. 2 A Correct. 3 Q Now, when Jesse Prince was No. 3 worldwide in 4 Scientology, did he -- 5 A Well, let me just clarify one thing. 6 Q Okay. 7 A So there was Mr. Miscavige and then Ms. Aznaran, 8 and then there were two people under her who were both of 9 equal authority -- 10 Q Who was the -- 11 A -- one external and one internal. 12 Q Okay. So who was the internal? 13 A Maybe Paul Schober. I may be wrong about that. 14 Q Jesse Prince's duties as the External Deputy 15 Inspector -- 16 A Deputy Inspector General External. 17 Q Okay. External. Part of his duties was to go 18 around the world retaining law firms to represent the 19 Church of Scientology? 20 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object. This is 21 repetitious. That was covered in the original cross. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Okay. Jesse Prince testified as an expert on the 25 tech of Scientology when he was at RTC. Is that correct?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1675 1 MR. FUGATE: I would object to that, your 2 Honor. That's outside the scope of the redirect. 3 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 4 A I'm not sure. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Okay. Did you ever testify as an expert on the 7 tech of the Church of Scientology while you were a 8 Scientologist? 9 A No. 10 Q Now, let's go to the issue of the document 11 production of the LMT. The documents that the LMT either 12 stonewalled or stalled or didn't turn over for whatever 13 reason has nothing to do with the Estate of Lisa McPherson, 14 does it. 15 A No. 16 Q Is that correct? It has nothing to do with the 17 Estate? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Yes. In fact, the documents that the LMT refused 20 to turn over are the documents from people who sought help 21 at the LMT. 22 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. I do 23 have an objection to that because I think that may be 24 a legal conclusion for the Court based on some of the 25 clips that you saw, and I think that it's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1676 1 inappropriate to ask her. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 A Actually, those documents were never requested. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Okay. So the hard drives that were left out in 6 the hallway that Mr. Merrett -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. There were videos 8 left in the hallway, not hard drives. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Okay. The videos that were left in the hallway, 11 were those the property of LMT or Mr. Bunker? 12 A Mr. Bunker. 13 Q Okay. So were they subject to any court order? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Mr. Bunker's videos? 16 A Well, I believe in the spirit of cooperation with 17 the Court, I would have to say that if Mr. Bunker was 18 working for the LMT and was taking videotapes of people 19 talking about Scientology and there was a court order 20 asking for all unedited videotape about people talking 21 about Scientology, it would be semantics for me to -- I 22 mean, I think that would be -- 23 Q Have you previously testified that Mr. Bunker 24 worked for LMT Media? Or Xenu TV? 25 A I don't recall.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1677 1 Q Was he on the payroll at all times of LMT? 2 A He was. 3 Q Okay. Now, the video clip that was shown of you 4 and Mr. Minton, Grady Ward, Jesse Prince, at the Cult Info 5 Conference in February of '99 -- of course, February of '99 6 is four months before I actually hired Mr. Prince in June 7 of '99, but -- 8 A But not before he had already begun doing work 9 for you. 10 Q And the only thing he did before February of '99 11 was review the PC folders of Lisa McPherson with you, 12 correct? 13 A I'm not sure what else he did with you. 14 Q Okay. When that videotape was turned over 15 pursuant to Judge Moody's order, at that time the LMT did 16 not have an attorney. Is that correct? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Okay. 19 A When was it turned over? 20 Q In fact -- well, Mr. Peterson's deposition, isn't 21 it true that Mr. Leipold on the phone represented the LMT? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Could we have a date, your 23 Honor? Mr. Peterson's deposition. 24 MR. DANDAR: Early -- early -- early 2000, 25 like February or March of 2000, is my recollection.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1678 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Do you recall that you sent Mr. Peterson as the 3 representative of the LMT to a deposition scheduled by 4 Mr. Moxon, and Mr. Leipold on the telephone represented the 5 LMT? 6 A I do recall sending Mr. Peterson. I don't recall 7 who represented him, but you -- 8 Q All right. 9 A I don't -- I mean, it may be true. 10 Q Now, the hard drives that you recently turned 11 over to the special master, that has nothing to do with the 12 Estate of Lisa McPherson and the wrongful death case, does 13 it. 14 MR. FUGATE: Same objection, your Honor, as 15 to that calls for a legal conclusion as to what would 16 be on there. For instance, in a criminal context, the 17 evidence, it could be Brady material. And I would 18 object to her making a legal conclusion. 19 THE COURT: Okay. I think that that's part 20 of the problem. I don't know how she could really 21 know. You could ask her more specifically. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q On the hard drives recently turned over by LMT to 24 the special master, was there anything on there that 25 concerned the Estate of Lisa McPherson?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1679 1 A I'm not sure. 2 Q Do you recall that what's on those hard drives is 3 the information of people who called in or came in to see 4 people at the Lisa McPherson Trust seeking advice or help? 5 A I don't believe that information was on those 6 hard drives. 7 Q Okay. Is that information somewhere else? 8 A Perhaps, but I don't -- I mean, that information, 9 if that's on hard drives, I would be surprised. 10 Q Is that information downloaded at the LMT to CDs 11 and those CDs were then shipped off to Mr. Minton in New 12 Hampshire? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Was that in compliance or against the court 15 order -- 16 A That -- 17 Q -- as far as you know? 18 A That didn't have anything to do with the court 19 order. 20 Q Right. Did I have any involvement in what the 21 LMT should or should not do pursuant to any court orders to 22 produce? 23 A To a certain degree, yes. 24 Q Okay. You -- the LMT was represented by John 25 Merrett at that time, correct?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1680 1 A At what time? 2 Q When the court orders came out to produce. 3 A I'm not sure what the dates of the court orders 4 were. 5 Q Okay. When Judge Quesada took over the case in 6 the late summer of 2000, John Merrett had been representing 7 LMT since the -- before May of 2000. Do you recall that? 8 A That's possible. 9 Q All right. And while John Merrett represented 10 LMT, do you have any personal knowledge that I was involved 11 at all in telling the LMT what to do and what not to do in 12 reference to court orders? 13 A I don't recall that you did. 14 Q Okay. Now, your -- your testimony concerning the 15 definition of "end cycle," you said it's like -- it's like 16 being on hospice care. Is that found in any tech book or 17 any book at all published by the Church of Scientology? 18 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to "your 19 definition of end cycle being like someone in hospice 20 care." I don't know that she testified to that. 21 THE COURT: Whatever she did testify to -- 22 she has testified about it, and I thought that was 23 somewhat what she said. So your objection is 24 overruled. If she didn't say that, she can say so. 25 A What was the question again?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1681 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Your definition that you testified about "end 3 cycle," it's like someone being on hospice care. And 4 correct me if I'm not saying it right. But is that your 5 definition of "end cycle"? 6 A Actually, I think that was the Court's 7 understanding of what I said. What I said was it was my 8 recollection that I had seen -- I believe I saw that term, 9 end of cycle, in a technical -- board technical bulletin, 10 to be exact, which listed a number of different types of 11 assists that one could -- it was called an assist summary 12 checklist, as I recall. And that particular assist had to 13 do with someone who was dying. And it was -- its purpose 14 was to basically allow the person a peaceful death. 15 Q How do you do that? 16 A I can't remember exactly what the process was, 17 but it was just basically -- I recall perhaps putting your 18 hand on the person's forehead, putting your hand on the 19 person's arms. You know, it's a very -- I just recall that 20 it was a very gentle, calming thing to do to help the 21 person. I believe I -- I believe the reason that I 22 remember it is because of a woman who I helped when she was 23 dying of cancer back in 1976. And I went to the hospital 24 to see her every day, and that's my memory. That's a long 25 time ago, but . . .
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1682 1 Q Okay. Do you talk to the person when you're 2 doing this assist? 3 A I don't believe so. 4 Q Do you -- 5 A I don't remember. I really don't. 6 Q Do you recollect that -- of the phrase "drop the 7 body" or "drop body"? 8 A I -- I don't -- I don't remember that there were 9 any verbal -- that there was any verbal communication 10 involved. 11 Q Okay. So -- 12 A That is a Scientology term for dying, though, is 13 "dropping the body." 14 Q Right. What you do remember about end cycle or 15 end of cycle -- make sure I understand what you're 16 saying -- is that one of the definitions is it does pertain 17 to someone who is obviously going to die from something, 18 like cancer or whatever? 19 THE COURT: Everyone is obviously going to 20 die. I think her testimony is her testimony. 21 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Somebody who is dying -- 23 MR. DANDAR: Right, okay. 24 THE COURT: -- I presume you mean by that 25 somebody who is in a terminal state --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1683 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: -- at the end of a cancer, where 3 there's no hope and they're going to die within a 4 matter of days. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I mean, this 6 woman that I remember helping was in the neural -- I 7 mean, she had brain cancer. She could no longer even 8 talk, and she was unconscious. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q All right. Now, do you know Ray Mithoff? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What is his position, post? 13 A Well, the last I -- 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm going to object 15 to this. This is outside the scope of redirect. 16 THE COURT: Yes. What did Mr. Fugate ask 17 about this? 18 MR. DANDAR: Well, he didn't mention the 19 name, but it has something to do with one of the 20 issues that he brought up on redirect, which I don't 21 really care to announce publicly. 22 THE COURT: Well, if you have got something 23 that you forgot to ask and it's just critical, you 24 might as well do it, because otherwise he's going to 25 call this woman back as his witness. So, I mean, if
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1684 1 it's critical, go on ahead; but if it's not, let's not 2 explore old stuff. 3 MR. DANDAR: It's not old. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q What was his post as far as you know? 6 A The last I knew, he was the Senior CS, the Senior 7 Case Supervisor International, Senior CS Int. 8 Q Is that in Los Angeles? 9 A No. 10 Q Where is that at? 11 A I believe he lives in Gilman Hot Springs, 12 California. 13 Q Okay. It's in California. It's at the 14 Scientology headquarters? 15 A At Int. 16 Q Int, right. And he would have authority over 17 local CSs, case supervisors? 18 MR. FUGATE: Can we just date what period 19 we're talking about? 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q All right. What period are we talking about, 22 now? Today? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q The last time -- when is the last time you knew 25 his position?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1685 1 A 1989. 2 Q Okay. Now, you talked about Teresa in the shed 3 out there in the desert that you and Jesse watched. Was 4 she restrained? I think you mentioned a time that she had 5 to be restrained. 6 A We held her. 7 Q With your hands? 8 A By the arms sometimes. 9 Q Okay. Do you recall her running out into the 10 desert and strip- -- tearing off a cactus tree limb, 11 branch? 12 A I think -- 13 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to this as 14 being already asked and answered -- not that 15 particular question, but he went into that on original 16 cross. 17 THE COURT: He did, but I think you did too, 18 didn't you? 19 MR. FUGATE: No. I just asked her about her 20 participation with Mr. Prince, which was not at, as he 21 says, the shed. 22 THE COURT: But it was about this case. 23 MR. FUGATE: It is, Judge. I agree to that. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. Because I don't 25 remember the cactus.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1686 1 A I believe that's an experience Mr. Prince had. 2 I'm not -- I don't believe I was there for that. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Okay. All right. In an isolation watch, part of 5 the introspection rundown that you talked about with 6 Mr. Fugate on redirect, who is the person that has the 7 authority to let the person on watch go to a hospital? 8 A To do what? 9 Q To go to a hospital. 10 A I don't know, really. It never came up for me. 11 I guess -- I don't really know. 12 THE COURT: If you had thought someone 13 needed to go to the hospital, would you have had the 14 authority to take them, this woman you watched? Who 15 would you have called? 16 THE WITNESS: I think I would have told 17 the -- told the CS on the case that I thought that's 18 what needed to happen, probably. 19 THE COURT: So if you had thought that 20 somebody needed to go to the hospital, you didn't just 21 stand there and watch. You did something. You took 22 them to the hospital, called somebody, did something. 23 THE WITNESS: As I said, it never came up in 24 my case, but if I had felt that way, I think what I 25 would have done would have been to get in touch with
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1687 1 the CS. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q And that's because only the CS has the immediate 4 authority to send that person to the hospital? 5 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 6 asked and answered. She said she didn't know. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 A I'm not sure who would have the authority. 9 But -- 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Okay. All right. 12 A -- but I don't know if the CS would have to check 13 with someone else or what the CS would do. But that's what 14 I would do. 15 Q How positive are you that the pictures shown to 16 you yesterday are the same Teresa that you did an isolation 17 watch on? 18 A I'm sure. 19 Q Are you aware of other people having died while 20 on an isolation watch or introspection rundown? 21 A I don't think so. 22 MR. DANDAR: That's all I have. 23 THE COURT: Anything further? 24 MR. FUGATE: No questions, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ma'am.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1688 1 You may step down. 2 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, can I ask you a 3 question -- 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 THE WITNESS: -- before I step down? These 6 declarations are still outstanding for me. 7 MR. DANDAR: Oh, you know, I have some here, 8 actually. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm not -- I just got this 11 faxed in, so if we already -- these are signed, and if 12 this is one of the questionable ones -- this is from 13 December 14th of '94. Is that one of the questionable 14 ones? 15 MR. WEINBERG: What's that mean, one of the 16 questionable ones? 17 MR. DANDAR: The ones that came off the 18 Internet without her signature on it. 19 THE COURT: Well, I have one here dated 20 December 14th that yesterday must have been introduced 21 because it has her signature. 22 MR. DANDAR: That's not it. 23 MR. FUGATE: The ones that I handed up had 24 her signature. As I recall the Court's admonition to 25 Ms. Brooks and her counsel is to read them, go through
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1689 1 them, make sure if there's something in there that's 2 not accurate or needs to be corrected, correct it. 3 And I assume that's what they're going to do. I have 4 no idea. 5 THE COURT: But I think what I said was, 6 also, that the objection that they have not been 7 authenticated because Ms. Brooks had said she would 8 need to see it signed had then been taken care of and 9 this could be substituted for the declaration that 10 came off the Internet. 11 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 12 THE COURT: Right. 13 MR. DANDAR: So I'm going to have to have -- 14 THE COURT: So it's in. In other words, 15 these are actually in. And I am assuming, unless she 16 tells me to the contrary -- because I've told you, I 17 think, Counsel -- Ms. Brooks' counsel -- that you 18 could have some time to look at these declarations, 19 and if they were false, I wanted to know about them. 20 And I would presume she would have to be put back on 21 the stand for that purpose. 22 MR. McGOWAN: That's correct. 23 THE COURT: And if they turn out that 24 they're not false, as I believe she has said -- she's 25 not aware of submitting any false affidavit, except
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1690 1 for the question over this one that I told you I 2 wanted her to go through it and tell me what parts of 3 it was false. But as for the others, she said she did 4 not recall submitting a false affidavit or false 5 declaration. And I said to you go over them; if 6 there's any part of them that's false, I want to know 7 about it. 8 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 9 THE COURT: Isn't that where we were? 10 MR. McGOWAN: That's true. 11 THE COURT: And I said I was not going to 12 require her to do that over the lunch hour or even 13 over the night, but maybe over the weekend. 14 MR. McGOWAN: Correct. 15 THE COURT: So maybe on Monday or Tuesday, 16 whatever day we get back together, you can advise us 17 of that, if Ms. Brooks had testified to some false 18 things. 19 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 20 THE WITNESS: But, your Honor -- 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: -- can I not be sequestered 23 anymore now? 24 THE COURT: As far as I'm concerned, you 25 don't have to be sequestered.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1691 1 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. 2 THE COURT: Is that all right with you? 3 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. 4 THE COURT: All right. I mean, she may be 5 recalled, and I understand that. But as far as I'm 6 concerned -- 7 THE WITNESS: But that would be for a very 8 specific thing, right? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Do you care? 11 MR. FUGATE: No, I don't. What I was going 12 to say is I guess we ought to just check and see 13 somewhat signed, executed affidavits are actually in 14 evidence so they can look at those. 15 THE COURT: Oh, I expect that by the time 16 this hearing is over that they'll get them all. And 17 it really kind of is annoying that they can get them 18 all -- these are legitimate affidavits that they have 19 to go to the trouble of going to some court somewhere 20 and having some court clerk have to cull through a 21 file, an old file, and pull these things out. 22 It would seem like Ms. Brooks could read 23 these things and know whether they're her affidavits 24 or not, but if she can't, then you're going to have to 25 do that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1692 1 MR. DANDAR: They're all in storage in the 2 clerk's office, and it just takes a long time. 3 THE COURT: But whatever you have there -- 4 was it the 14th? Is that the only one you had? 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes, that's the only one I had. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Well, the 14th is in. 7 That was the one you showed her yesterday. She 8 acknowledged that was her signature. 9 MR. DANDAR: All right. That's fine. 10 THE COURT: So that's where we are on those 11 affidavits. 12 So you may step down, and you're not 13 sequestered. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: That does not mean, however, 16 that you could be talking with Mr. Minton about his -- 17 I don't know how that's going to work, but he -- when 18 he is on the stand, he is not to talk to anybody about 19 the case, anybody, except his attorney, and that's 20 only if I let his attorney talk to him, which I will 21 do over long periods of time. So he really is not 22 permitted to talk with you. 23 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: You're permitted now to talk 25 with -- about matters with lawyers and what have you,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1693 1 but he's not once he starts to testify. 2 THE WITNESS: I understand that. 3 THE COURT: So I understand that's 4 difficult, but that's just the rules of court. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar, would you like 8 this back? 9 THE COURT: Actually, I think that's my 10 copy. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it is. 13 And do you have any exhibits by the clerk? 14 Yes, you do. 15 THE WITNESS: Where are they? 16 MR. DANDAR: Right here. 17 THE WITNESS: Don't they have those little 18 marks on them? 19 (Off-the-record discussion held.) 20 THE COURT: Can we go ahead and take a 21 break? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 23 THE COURT: It's 10:10. Why not? We're 24 going to be in recess until 10:30. 25 (A break was taken at 10:10 a.m. until
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1694 1 10:33 a.m.) 2 (These court proceedings continue in a 3 separate volume with the testimony of David 4 Minton.) 5 ____________________________________ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 12, Page 1695 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 18th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25